Hi piecers, not intending to start a new thread, just a questions I'd love some input on.
Overall H and I are still doing quite well. I'm just having a real tough time staying 'present', thinking, and calm enough to work towards a resolution when we're arguing. Arguing is such a new thing for us - not fun but it's a h&ll of a lot better than the withdrawing we did for years. But arguments - yeep. My brain goes *poof*; my insides become jelly, and I turn into the proverbial 'deer in the headlights' for a few moments ... and then run.
What can I say and/or think to myself when things get tense that will settle me down and keep me there with him, functioning and working towards a solution?
What can I say and/or think to myself when things get tense that will settle me down and keep me there with him, functioning and working towards a solution?
Mmmm... Jelly Donuts. Ahem... err... Sorry. What were you saying?
Sincerely,
Homer Simpson.
Mmmm... Jelly Donuts. Ahem... err... Sorry. What were you saying?
Sincerely,
Homer Simpson.
Lol! Yah but then I'll actually WANT a jelly donut. A few go-rounds like that and then I'll have a different kind of problem!
What can I say and/or think to myself when things get tense that will settle me down and keep me there with him, functioning and working towards a solution?
But seriously...
perform checklist:
1. Am I tired and cranky? Nope, then check. Yes, then... we should talk about this when we've both had enough rest.
2. Is anything more important happening? If the house is on fire, call the fire department instead.
3. Are we doing this in front of friends and family? If yes, find a room.
Supposing you pass the check list, then just remember how much it sucks down the road if you don't deal with thing. The pay me now or PAY me later principle.
Rock, paper, scissors? Best 2 out of 3 gets their way. LOL
We did the withdrawing thing too. I grew up with parents that fought. A lot. That pushed me in the other direction and I'd silently seethe and withdraw.
H and I had an incident this weekend where I did something that annoyed him. I apologized but he was still annoyed. In the past I would have gotten mad at him for being mad at me after my first apology (over something that was really stupid) and we may have gone 3 days giving each other the silent treatment until one of us caved. And the kicker is that we'd often forget what the original issue was.
This time I kept on him and apologized again. Told him I didn't realize it bothered you and I didn't do it to piss you off and that I really was sorry. Then I just interacted with him like normal. No icy looks. No curt comments. Just acknowledged, apologized and dropped it. It really went against my instincts, but I know what we used to do was far more damaging to our R than anything else. And all over stupid stuff that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Was this a big issue fight or something smaller?
Rock, paper, scissors? Best 2 out of 3 gets their way. LOL
lol!
That pushed me in the other direction and I'd silently seethe and withdraw.
Wow - me too! And your example is very similar to what happened here too... only in reverse!
Was this a big issue fight or something smaller?
This is going to sound weird, but yes and no! He snapped at me for asking about something that I thought was important we talk about. So the snapping itself... not such a big thing in the grand scheme...he was hungry & tired from work. We did briefly discuss it the next day, when everyone was fed and rested. But he
still didn't want to talk about it and come to something we both could live with ... that's the big thing. So I fear he's going back to his old ways ... withholding; dismissing; stonewalling.
I don't know what to make of it. Don't want to overreact and make something out of nothing, but don't want to sweep it under the rug either. I feel wary.
I think you need to tell him what the real issue is...not what you were arguing over, but it sounds like the real issue is snapping/witholding/dismissing/stonewalling.
Let him know those reactions trigger things in you, right or wrong, that's the way it is now.
I think you need to tell him what the real issue is...not what you were arguing over, but it sounds like the real issue is snapping/witholding/dismissing/stonewalling.
Let him know those reactions trigger things in you, right or wrong, that's the way it is now.
Hi GW, thanks for your insightful comment. Yah, you're right - it's probably the withholding
itself, not, so much the specific 'thing' he's being withholding
about.
I did tell him that when he withholds etc it makes me feel pushed out of his life; like he's only willing to share 'so much' of himself with me. He apologized, but he still wouldn't open up. Which to me seems no better than saying: 'Yes I feel badly for being withholding and dismissive... but don't think for a minute that I'm going to change it' Yeesh! What good does that do me!?
I know the silent treatment stuff bothered my H as much as it did me, but we're both stubborn at times too. I guess I've decided that it takes two people to play that game so I'm going to do my best to break the cycle. It won't kill me to swallow my pride sometimes and take care of stuff in a better way, especially when it really doesn't matter at all in the big picture. Yeah, over the weekend I thought he was overreacting for getting upset--like really? You thought I knew I was annoying you so you think I was doing it on purpose more? Seriously--get a brain!
Hmmmmm. I'd chalk up the crankiness to him being hungry and tired and forget about it in this case because you have a bigger thing you want resolved and it won't get resolved any better if you get stuck on him being a crab when you brought it up.
It's hard to say on generalities, but do you think there's an underlying reason he doesn't want to talk about the bigger issue? Is it something he feels is a reflection on him (like money issues he may feel that as the man he's not providing adequately)? Or is it something he doesn't think is an issue? Or maybe he just really hates disagreement and conflict and wants to avoid it?
I think maybe trying to broach the subject a few more different times might be best. Try to keep it compartmentalized for now--if he's not receptive to discussion when you try, don't hold it against him right then. And i guess just try to keep it in the front of your mind (so it comes across in your words and body language) that the goal of resolving this is so that you're both satisfied. I know disagreeing about anything triggers the whole flight or fight thing instinctively which makes you feel you're fighting against the spouse, rather than you and your S fighting the problem together to figure out a solution. This part is hard!
Or maybe he just really hates disagreement and conflict and wants to avoid it?
Very much. We're both like that. When conflict arises he snaps, blames, dismisses or withdraws and I just run! After he snapped at me I apologized, then ran upstairs and hid in my office for the whole evening.
Not the most productive way to solve a disagreement!
I know disagreeing about anything triggers the whole flight or fight thing instinctively which makes you feel you're fighting against the spouse, rather than you and your S fighting the problem together to figure out a solution.
Oooh this is GENIUS ... I have never heard that before but that's EXACTLY the way I should be looking at this, isn't it? Freckle you're a gem... thanks so much for sharing all your insights! This gives me much inspiration!
This is a great thread...very solution oriented.
I agree, just went and re-read after W and I had massive fight this weekend. First really major fight in years...it wasn't good...neither of us handled well and we are still on unsettled ground from it
I agree, just went and re-read after W and I had massive fight this weekend. First really major fight in years...it wasn't good...neither of us handled well and we are still on unsettled ground from it
Hey GW, I'm sorry, I had a bit of a rough weekend so I'm tired and not quite remembering your sitch... but yah I can relate. Starting to have fights after so long of none can be rough. But I think despite how crappy they can make you feel, they can be a good thing. Sometimes the place you get to after them, is better than where you can get without (even though it's a bumpy ride). What did you argue about?
What did we argue about...LOL...you know I look back and know what started it but not sure how it grew out of control and not sure what path we ended up on
It started with the fact we are in a rough period. My W (EA for a year) is having feelings for OM and having trouble dealing with them. I am having trouble, some days worse than others, dealing with the realization that those instant spark feelings are still there and they are stronger for OM than for me. So after what started out as a good evening with friends (W even told me later on in fight how much fun she had, how I looked at her with love in my eyes the way she had wanted for all those years), went downhill when she did one of those things that triggered my not dealing well know she has feelings for OM. She grabbed the iphone and consumed herself in phone instead of us spending some quality time together as we had previously talked about doing. And then the fights led to talks of OM and just got kind of ugly and then the flood of emotions hit W and she started crying about these feelings for OM that she can't shake even though she knows she shouldn't have them...
And as a side note, it just so happened to be the anniversay of the bomb from a year ago...
What did we argue about...LOL...you know I look back and know what started it but not sure how it grew out of control and not sure what path we ended up on
We've had those too.
She grabbed the iphone and consumed herself in phone instead of us spending some quality time together as we had previously talked about doing.
So did the fight start after this then? How did you handle this? What did you say to her?
And as a side note, it just so happened to be the anniversay of the bomb from a year ago...
I don't think that's a side note. I think that's a 'smack dab front and centre note'
It's no wonder you guys ended up in a scrap. You must have both felt very tense and uncomfortable that day.
I know I felt very tense and uncomfortable and I had tried to communicate that to her earlier in the day. But right now, she struggles communicating in return because she doesn't want to hurt me and she is struggling with these feelins for OM.
I didn't handle her consuming herself in the phone well at all. With it being "that day", with having heard about those feelings ealier in the day, it triggered that lack of trust in me and my pride being hurt again and I started the fight. I honestly don't remember what I said, I'm sure it could have been said much better, but I don't remember
I guess the key now FMV, is any advice on how to repair and move forward. It feels like we took a couple of steps backwards. It seems like we are at another crossroads where she has decide me or him...she told me she has already made that choice (and she did...from my sitch when she finally realized what S meant and that I was letting go, she ended it with him and asked for another chance to work on our M)...but I think she needs to make it again.
It seems like we are at another crossroads where she has decide me or him...she told me she has already made that choice (and she did...from my sitch when she finally realized what S meant and that I was letting go, she ended it with him and asked for another chance to work on our M)...but I think she needs to make it again.
So how to repair and move forward. Well, I know that in my sitch although I never had an EA or PA I definitely had a long-standing attraction to another man. So I'm not sure if that qualifies me to advise... I can share this with you though. Even as my H and have continued to reconnect and find new intimacy, I STILL have had those old feelings come back for this other man occassionally. I find it's when I've been feeling disconnected from my H for a stretch of time, that they come back. But when my H and I take time to do special things together, share meaningful talks, spend quiet physical time together ... even just cuddling, holding one another, that kind of thing... it's when we do all these things that the feelings for that other guy stay far far away and I think... 'what the h&ll was I thinking... this is WAY better than anything I could ever imagine with that other guy!'
So in light of that, do you think that the way to repair and move forward might revolve not just around how to make up after the fight, but around finding ideas as to how you and your W continue feeling connected to one another?
So in light of that, do you think that the way to repair and move forward might revolve not just around how to make up after the fight, but around finding ideas as to how you and your W continue feeling connected to one another?
I think this is brilliant, but...
She says she is feeling those things now with me. She feels loved, appreciated, safer, secure...she even used the phrase "i know the grass isn't greener on the other side"...but I also got a line that she feels like she's in the novel the Bridges of Madison county...
But I can try again
Thanks for helping me talk through this one
...but I also got a line that she feels like she's in the novel the Bridges of Madison county...
!!! Oh my heavens that's just how I'd felt too. When did she say that to you?
What types of things do you and she DO together? Weekly date night? Any little everyday rituals like a 5-min snuggle (and I mean skin on skin here...
) before falling asleep (that one's made HUGE differences for us in the last few weeks!)
She said that too me earlier in the day on Saturday...well before the big argument. It was when we were about to have a small argument about something else and I could tell she was annoyed so I opened up (the new me!) and told her I was having a rough few days dealing with the fact that she was having these feelings and I was losing trust...and then we talked a little and she was trying to make me understand without hurting me deeply. So she said, remember the book the Bridges of Madison County? I said yes. And then she tells me that is what she feels like.
Everyday rituals we need to get better at in my opinion. The one constant is the one you describe above, the snuggle before falling asleep, in fact in the last few days she told me how safe she feels while doing this. I've tried to get a monthly date night going, but that has failed. Weekly...no way. We both work full time (together, same building might I add...and we carpool together). We had a date night in Sep, not in Oct, nothing so far in Nov.
So how did you get past the Bridges of Madison County? Anything your husband could have done to get you past that sooner?
Weekly...no way. We both work full time (together, same building might I add...and we carpool together). We had a date night in Sep, not in Oct, nothing so far in Nov.
Ohhhh nooooo GW... that worries me. You guys have kids then, I'm guessing? Wow. No date night since Sep. IMHO that's too long GW... these days we start getting scrappy and withdrawing if we go a couple weeks without. Is there anything you can do at all on a weekly basis? Even to make a special point of deciding together to buy a new bottle of wine (or whatever if you're not drinkers) every friday and share a quiet drink and just talk for a half-hour?
So how did you get past the Bridges of Madison County? Anything your husband could have done to get you past that sooner?
I think it was just what you're doing now GW - opening up. The more he tells me about his own thoughts, feelings, even fears and areas he feels weak, the more attracted I am to him. I know a lot of folks here talk about women not being attracted to a man who shares his feelings, but I'm just not like that I guess. When he does, I feel like...wow... I can really relate to what he's saying; that he feels the same way I do sometimes... just ...human... he makes mistakes like I do; he worries about work like I do. And, he talks to ME about it! Like, he values my opinion and wants to share these important things in his life with ME?! Then, combine that with him now starting to take time to show me how physically attracted he is to me? Wow. Phew. Heady stuff. It just makes me feel that I'm so
important and
significant to him. That's when the whole 'bridges' thing fades away.
But the date nights..yeek GW... it's so important. IMHO you gotta start with something in that direction.
Yes we have kids, two of them, 4 and almost 9. I know, I'm worried about the lack of date night too...ESPECIALLY since we both agree that NEVER doing them in the past hurt our M/R.
And you know, deep down, that may have added to the arguement this weekend. This past weekend was our best shot at doing a date night...and then this work social function (of hers) came up that we went too instead. And she keeps saying that she is supposed to be planning the next date night (not sure how that got in her brain, but I don't want to discourage it), but it hasn't happened.
So, you are very correct and I needed someone to confirm it for me, throw it my face, something like that. So I am going to ask her if she has a preference on Fri or Sat night (she leaves Sunday afternoon for trip...that I am nervous about), and not really give her an option to back out.
I like the buy a bottle of wine together for Fridays. She has recently developed an interest in wine much more so than ever before and picking one out for a Friday night is such a great idea...we can do with the kids/family movie night we do on Fridays. Perfect mix!
I like the buy a bottle of wine together for Fridays. She has recently developed an interest in wine much more so than ever before and picking one out for a Friday night is such a great idea...we can do with the kids/family movie night we do on Fridays. Perfect mix!
Wow... sounds like busy household! No wonder it's tough to find time for date nights. And wonderful if she's got a new interest in wine - that's a great way to connect with her - to show her you'd like to be part of the things she's interested in.
If you've got a pre-established ritual like your family movie nights you can tie it to, that could definitely help couldn't it? You won't forget or let it slip that way. Just a thought though... it doesn't sound like a lot of privacy if you're doing it while the kids are there. I think it's important that your attention is focussed on
talking. My H and I do things together like watching movies too, but they never
feel the same, you know? I think for a woman, the opportunity to have regular, meaningful conversations with her H is one of the ultimate forms of emotional intimacy.
Can you put the kids to bed, even 15 early, to squeak out some time just for each other afterwards? But still, all that being said, any port in a storm! If you think you can swing it while the kids are watching TV, go for it!
FMV...thanks for the push! I just sent W a note, asking if she had a preference of Wed, Fri or Sat, because one of those was going to be date night. She replied right away how about Wed for a change of pace/routine. I told her consider it done, just need her to give me the babysitter list when we get home.
You really made me realize despite how much my ego/pride got hurt this weekend with the Bridges of Madison County comment and the tears over the feelings she just can't get rid of for OM...that it is really, really critical right now to get things back on track...especially with her work trip next week which is PRIME opportunity if she were to decide she needs to talk to OM about those feelings...we both don't need to go into this trip of hers on shaky grounds...
thanks for all the back and forth today
Hey no worries GW, any time. I'm glad that even with my more limited frame of reference, I was able to help. Way to go taking the initiative to send the note, and what a great response from your W. Be sure to post and let us know how it goes.
Hi GW,
I'm sorry to hear about the tough weekend.
I have to agree about taking the time together even with the strains of life and kids.
Speaking as a woman, reading the 5LL really opened my eyes to what I was missing from my H: quality time. I don't know what your W's LL is but I can tell you that I yearned for that more than anything. I finally gave up and started living status quo.
I also missed the look of love in my H's eyes. To see that again would have melted my heart in the biggest way.
We all just want to feel significant and important to each other. I miss that intimacy as a woman more than anything... it had not been there for at least 2 years. As I have said in the past, I was guilty of an EA without realizing it ~ 2 years ago. I was attracted to a man that I otherwise would never have been attracted to. He didn't have half the attributes that my H had. He wasn't better looking, he wasn't smarter, he wasn't kinder but he listened and that made me feel important. I knew he wanted me and that made me feel attractive when my self-esteem was at its lowest. I now know that I was using him as a crutch for all of the above reasons.
You are the better choice even when your pride/ego may say different. Try to remember that.
Even 15 mins would have been a building block for me.
Kind of about arguing, kind of not. More wondering about how to give a spouse the benefit of the doubt.
The other day, H said something that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as insulting; disrespectful. However I was exhausted from trip home to see my parents (my dad's very ill) that I'd just come home from. So I didn't question him about what he'd said right then because I just didn't want to get into it.
So this simmers all that evening, then all day yesterday and all last night. By this morning I'm in full-scale insecurity mode and finally mentioned it. I can't even remember how I brought it up; I was careful not to blame and he handled it really kindly. Some gentle, loving teasing about insecurities and reassured me that I'd misunderstood his intent. So all's good. But it made me think of other times we've had interactions like this in the past. Many times it's ended up very badly indeed.
So I'm wondering this - when you spouse says something in everyday conversations that you feel is rude or hurtful how do you question what they said (to protect your boundaries in case they're starting to step over the line again) while at the same time showing them the respect they deserve in case you really just misunderstood their intent (or it was an innocent slip of the tongue)?
how do you question what they said (to protect your boundaries in case they're starting to step over the line again) while at the same time showing them the respect they deserve in case you really just misunderstood their intent
Wow...I have wondered the same thing recently, though probably couldn't have stated it so well/clearly
Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one. My fear is that if you question them, you're almost accusing them in a way - like you're making them defend themselves against something they might not even be near feeling.
There's gotta be a way to word a question like that. Hopefully someone will pop by and share an idea or two with us.
Hopefully...because I have seen my W get annoyed cause she feels I am accusing her and normally she quickly settles and says she realizes why I react that way, but I can tell she is still feeling disrespected...
Need to know how to do this better until there is enough trust to not have to deal wit this
FMV,
I know what you mean--so many times when my H or I would get upset about something the other had said or done, it would turn out later (after the freezing the other person out) that no harm had been intended.
All the same, if what's being said is genuinely hurtful, I think you need to bring your H's attention to that, as quickly as you feel able to do so in a loving and respectful manner. You might say, "H, when I hear 'x,' I feel hurt/disrespected/attacked.... So I'd just like to understand why you used those particular words."
If he continues to attack, you need to set your boundary (and then maintain it firmly). If, as you say, you misunderstood the intent or he misspoke, the fact you've been calm and non-accusatory should make it possible to have an amicable discussion about it. Don't think of this as an argument, but as a mature way of sidestepping one.
Hi Cyrena, that's great advice thanks so much. It reminds me of what I've read about communication... how... what is it, like, 80% of communication is nonverbal? So the idea of just staying calm and non-accusatory makes sense.
I find that I jump to conclusions too easily about the intent behind his words - my insecurities coming out - so I wonder if that comes out in the tone of my response. My IC says it's because sometimes his words trigger my own worst fears about myself. So I get defensive and scared. Argh. Such a hard habit to break.
I like the wording you suggested too, especially "I'd just like to understand why you used those particular words." Maybe that would help get it across that I realize how he could inadvertently use words that aren't consistent with his intent.
Hi FMV,
I'm hopping over to your forum per your invitation. Still working on detaching from OM, but the arguing thread is serendipitously relevant as I'm trying desperately to connect with H.
Came into the kitchen this morning in a pretty red nightie (we are sleeping in separate rooms) and he just said "Is that new?"
I said "Yeah, I'd like to hear that you think I look cute in it" and he just laughed:(
After the advice you gave me here, and a convo with my sister yesterday (she has NO idea the extent of it, but is 15 years older than me and recently left her H of 30 years for 3 months, and they are using the Love Languages book to try to put things back together)... Well I've been trying to let my H know specifically what I need.
Desperate for an opportunity to talk seriously with him, just to feel if he is receptive to change. It would help SO much in switching my thoughts away from OM.
I've been trying to find some of the books that have been mentioned as resources, but have not found them available online, so will go out to the library and to bookstores today to see what I can find.
Trying to keep my walking up, but oddly hate the energy it gives me... Makes me just want contact with OM. Actually took Benadryl last night to mellow me out. Evenings are the worst, trying to avoid prime "contact time" with OM.
Reading what GW has to say, trying to detach from my Iphone also! Not only on my end, I can see where H's constant immersion on computer/phone is such a barrier to connecting. He may be involved with OW, or it might just be immersion in projects, but... God, I just wish he'd notice me.
Football season offered us some opportunities to snuggle a tiny bit, but now there is no affection whatsoever. I've realized my 2 LL are Affirmations and Affection.
Should I buy H a copy of this book? not sure what to do.... So hard not to slip into OM fantasy when H is so distancing...
FMV,
I second everything you've said here... And that is exactly the problem H and I have-- no date nights or alone time whatsoever. Just school activities and meetings for the kids! My kids monopolize our attention in the evenings.
Talking to me definitely attracts and bonds me to a man. I guess that is why OM and I bonded; he was talking to me when H didn't. I want to know he values my opinion and trusts me. I think the attraction comes from that, mental and then physical.
Hmmmm... Right now I'm working on this alone. Afraid to even broach the topic with my H, just have so much work to do on myself right now.
Time2go?
I said "Yeah, I'd like to hear that you think I look cute in it" and he just laughed:(
Yah, I got a lot of that too. It's just him feeling uncomfortable ... he likely just doesn't know what to say because it's a new situation. You might at some point have to actually sit down and have a discussion with him to let him know that you have been feeling disconnected (and whatever other feelings you want him to know about) from him. Little comments here and there might not be 'in his face' enough to really make him 'get' that the situation is serious.
If you do sit down to talk about it, just be aware that he might get defensive and feel blamed. Just reassure him that you're aware he likely hasn't known how you've been feeling because you haven't shared much of it until now. But that you're trying to change that now because you love him and want a more connected, loving relationship with him. And then just tell him one or two specific,
tangible behaviors that would make you feel more loved, for example a hug and kiss when he gets home from work; a 15-min face to face quiet chat in the evenings after the kids go to bed, just to get caught up from the day. And then give it a few weeks to try it out.
I came to expect some resistance, learning that it was not because he didn't love me, just because it was new behavior and he wasn't used to those kinds of intimate connections. It will likely take work from you to initiate whatever changes you'd like day to day.
Oh, and take care to be patient with him as well as
yourself. Interestingly, when I started initiating change in our M, I found I had some odd resistances to the changes as well... and, asking for those changes in the M brought it all out front and centre! For example, I was as fearful of emotional connection as he was. Part of my role in creating the distance in my M was that I didn't feel worthy of asking to be cared for, comforted and supported (still don't in many ways). And so as we progressed, it required I deal with a lot of my own issues, so that we could continue connecting and finding a new level of intimacy. Sometimes we are more similar to the person we marry than we expect.
Just a journal. Sending this out to the universe. Kinda relationship stuff kinda not. It's been a hard week. Family stuff after a visit home last weekend; painful old things dredging themselves up again. Waking up at 3am again and crying, worrying often. H did listen as I talked about it a couple times, so feel like my 'please support me' card has been punched a few too many times with him already. IC appt soon so that's good. But just feeling low.
So think of something positive. What can you do for yourself that might cheer you up a bit? Nice coffee, walk, good book, margaritas? What? We all know that funk all too well...not a great place to be...
H did listen as I talked about it a couple times,
That is good! That is positive
So think of something positive. What can you do for yourself that might cheer you up a bit? Nice coffee, walk, good book, margaritas? What? We all know that funk all too well...not a great place to be...
Thanks GW, yes I've tried to keep up my regular GAL schedule this week. I've missed a couple things but not bad overall. It helps while I'm doing it, just those times it's quiet and I'm alone old fears and negative core beliefs come back, makes my head and heart tired. After all the work I did this year I figured I'd kicked them to the curb. But starting to think maybe it's something that will be with me forever, so something I have to manage rather than expect to completely defeat.
That is good! That is positive
Yes I agree. It didn't always used to be like that, so I'm doing my best to count my blessings.
Little comments here and there might not be 'in his face' enough to really make him 'get' that the situation is serious.
And then just tell him one or two specific,
tangible behaviors that would make you feel more loved, for example a hug and kiss when he gets home from work; a 15-min face to face quiet chat in the evenings after the kids go to bed, just to get caught up from the day. And then give it a few weeks to try it out.
I came to expect some resistance, learning that it was not because he didn't love me, just because it was new behavior and he wasn't used to those kinds of intimate connections. It will likely take work from you to initiate whatever changes you'd like day to day.
Oh, and take care to be patient with him as well as
yourself. Interestingly, when I started initiating change in our M, I found I had some odd resistances to the changes as well... and, asking for those changes in the M brought it all out front and centre!
Sometimes we are more similar to the person we marry than we expect.
FMV,
Thanks for walking and clearing the path and sharing your journey for those of us who haven't yet ventured this far. The statement about how similar we are to the person we married resonates for me. It reminds me that some of my W's struggles are mine, and that my W and I are in a better position to help each other address issues of intimacy, communication, self-expression and related issues, than any replacement person could ever do.
CL
FMV,
so sorry things are so rough your way too...This is a tough road, whichever way we are going down it:(
I'm still struggling with dropping OM. First weekend I've gone without much contact, although I did leave a pathetic VM early Sunday morning.
So Ashamed... Reading the book " Why Men Love Bitches" helped me ALOT and actually made the most direct plea to my H yet... Crying out for him to get engaged again in our M. A part if me is almost thinking I HAVE to tell him about EA, to get him really in the game. But I'm afraid that would make him desperate, not really productively involved in R, from seeing LBD's reactions.
Googled and found a "Love Addiction" therapist this morning, and am going into the city this afternoon to see him. That is exactly how RA feels... Luke a live addiction, and from my reading, fits me to a T. It's awful... And, I think because I've been with my H for almost 25 years, with practically NO sex... My brain chemicals went overboard when they got tripped. The EA feels the way it was with my high school boyfriend, because my brain hasn't had these "Love Drugs" in years.
Trying to focus on the things B!tches do... Taking care of myself, GAL, making doctors appointments, asking directly for what I want.
So much of it is about regaining your self-respect and dignity, not taking the crumbs. I told my H last night he needed to start putting up more boundaries with the kids... Ask ME, not them what we are doing about vacation, etc. -- ending up NOT going to adult event last night my husband hemmed and hawed about, but I should have gone ahead last week, bought the tix, dressed up and said "I'm going. You coming with me?"
I think there is a part of us as women (especially in SSM) that seeks attention of OM (not necessarily A!) in order to try and get our H to notice us again.
I feel so confused, emotionally drained, can't eat or sleep... Glad I'm seeing IC today for 1st time... Quite a schlep into the city at rush hour to get his only cancellation, but worth it if he knows how to handle love addiction issues...
I know so much of this comes from growing up without my Dad.
How did I get wrapped up in EA??? I am NOT the type, not the type at all... Mother of the Year taking off her shiny crown:(
please pray for me to help me help myself...
please pray for me to help me help myself..
You'll be in my prayers. How the IC go today? I had a tough one with my IC today too, so I sympathize! Remember to be kind to yourself.
FMV,
it was really awesome... I was not disappointed.
IC said he thought EA is a A Cry for help... That all Human beings need affection, connection and interaction -- and I obvious was devoid. He said every person needs 2-3 close friends (me -- 0), and 4-6 aquaintences you socialize with regularly (doing better there).
IC said he was more concerned about the fact that up until EA I basically have been in bed for past 3 years... Depression... And that the EA made me feel alive again.
As far as obsessing, he pointed out that there are 2 things in life that get your attention: 1) the compelling (EA) and 2) the important (taking care of yourself, kids, job).
Ge gave me some really concrete steps for boosting my mind chemicals, which he suspects were bottomed out until EA, and which is why the compulsion is so strong.
He gave me some baby Steps for dealing with EA, as he HEARD me about this being my best friend for the past year (before it turned romantic 2 weeks ago.).
IC is my age and said H probably won't be that freaked out about EA since OM 20 yrs younger and 1000 miles away. IC pointed out that these aspects probably made it seem "safer" to me with little chance of real-life R.
Just good to get it out to a REAL live person, since do much of my life has become cyber with this EA.
IC pointed out the important thing right now is to get a life -- out of my head, out of my house, out of my bed and NOT just with kid's activities, since empty nest not far away.
He is having me put each issue (EA, H, and my depression) in separate
Boxes... And take on most important first and foremost.
Underlying, longterm depression being the 1st...
Whew... Haven't had this much drama in my life in decades-- this rollercoaster of feelings has me wiped up, unable to eat.
IC suggested a specific type if Omegas for depression, etc. plus book by Dr. Daniel Amen...
Hang in there FMV, we'll get through this together...
Great news...
You sound so much better and more upbeat today. And I think that is key. There is a long road ahead, you know that, and a positive outlook on life is going to be so important.
Thanks for the update. You can do this! Take those tools you were given and turn it into something positive
Feeling overwhelming urges to reach put to OM... HELP!!! Needing some support here.
Oh GW... It is hour by hour, feeling uncontrollable compulsion to reach out to OM, need to hear all that love and affirmation...
Guys, what tools do you use to DETACH from someone??
So much easier if it's someone who has hurt you, but in my case kicking him to the curb is making me go crazy wanting to contact him.
I feel stupid, pathetic and vulnerable. All those things that got me here in the first place. Just need to "talk" to someone besides OM, and fill that vacuum.
Ok, here's an excerpt I found:
According to Psychology Today, "Levels of phenylethylamine (PEA) -- a chemical in the brain involved in the euphoria that comes with falling in love -- rise with feelings of infatuation, boosting euphoria and excitement. Love and sex addicts may simply be dependent upon (this) physical and psychological arousal triggered by PEA ..." and other factors.
The thought that "this person is the only one for me" is the root of the affliction.
"The fantasies feed the addiction," says Susan Peabody, a love-addiction teacher for 22 years and author of "Addiction To Love: Overcoming Obsession and Dependency in Relationships," who is based in the San Francisco Bay area. "You carry around these fantasies of when the relationship was at its peak, and it's on a loop in your brain."
"Until you fall in love with someone else, it stays with you, and that can go on 20, 30 years," she says.
Moving on
Since obsessive love addiction is fueled by fantasy, modifying your thoughts is the best way to get over an ex. To break the cycle, Schaeffer outlines the following steps to help people forget the past and focus on the future.
• Assess yourself for love addiction tendencies honestly. Some signs include obsessive thoughts about another person that interfere with your life and feelings of worthlessness or depression when not in a relationship
• Know healthy love exists and how to identify it.
• Be willing to face the pain letting go produces.
• Discover and address the underlying causes and psychological beliefs that support the compulsive/obsessive behavior. Ask yourself questions like, "What do I believe about relationships, love, and myself? Why might I fear closeness? Do I believe people will disappoint me or I will disappoint them?"
• Don't forget the past; utilize it. Acknowledge that you will move beyond any painful experiences and focus on future relationship success.
• Find a support group such as Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous or a therapist trained in love addiction to help you through this transition.
Here's the good news for people who think the time may be right to cut the cord. A study released in August by Northwestern University indicates that people -- especially those deeply in love -- overestimate how badly they'll feel after a breakup.
Detaching is very hard, so don't beat yourself up. And it's hard even when someone has hurt you. And you are talking to someone who is not good at detaching...
Now, don't reach out right now. I don't care if you have unplug the computer from the wall and pull the battery out of your phone. If that's what it takes, do it. The feeling will pass. Just get through the next four hours.
And I'm serious. Unplug the computer and take the battery out. Look at everything you found above. This is tough. You have to fight it. You have to be the strong one right now. You have it in you.
I saw your post to Sandi, and I'm going to give you an opinion that others might not agree with and you might not want to hear. OM doesn't love you. He might love the thrill, he might love the excitement or PEA, but he doesn't truly love you. He can't. You've never met in person. He doesn't really know you. So stop your thinking about that.
You want to know who does love you, even if he is lousy at showing it, it is your H and your children.
You are smart enough and stong enough to do this
Thank you GW!!! I needed that "slap in the face" ( and I mean that in a good way, to bring me back to reality and out of the fantasies.
Hmmm... Battery out of the phone -- great idea!
Thanks Sandi, I know... I know... Got to let go of my drug. Just like crack, causes more harm than the high is worth.
I think H really noticed something was up with me when I went out of the blue to that counseling appointment all the way in the city yesterday. Kinda like ... What's up??? Seems to be there for me a bit more today.
I scheduled Lasik eye surgery for Thursday... So that should keep me preoccupied this week, and is a big self-care issue that I've been putting off for a year.
Keep those words of reality coming my way... I figure if I can make it 3 days, the worst will be over...? I hope. T
Over four years ago, these same words was said to me. Not by GW, but others. Know how I felt about it? I hated it. I did not want to believe it and would tune it out.
OM doesn't love you. He might love the thrill, he might love the excitement or PEA, but he doesn't truly love you. He can't. You've never met in person. He doesn't really know you. So stop your thinking about that.
You want to know who does love you, even if he is lousy at showing it, it is your H and your children.
I was so fogged out until I actually expected OM to propose to me.....and we hadn't even met in person! How stupid is that? GW is so right in what he's telling you. But I'm going to tell you something else......and you won't like it,but it was told to me (and I found out it was true). You are not the only female your OM has. You can bank on him having otherwoment that is playing that same game with him. He tells those other women the same stuff he's told you. That is his world! If this OM was very much....would he spending his time on line playing chess with a married woman twenty years older than him??? Wake up!! What kind of man he really is verses what he has you
THINKING he is--are miles apart.
Three days long enough? No,but it's a start.
Well, it felt good to "slap you in the face" because those are words I say badly have wanted to tell and still want to tell my W as she struggles with her addiction. Only difference is they have met, but they didn't start the EA until after that...and yes I believe that because my W was an open book about things and hopefully still is...
So I hope it helped and it actually felt good for me to be able to say it someone!
Still here and thinking good thoughts for you Newlife (great new name btw). Glad to hear your IC appt helped you feel more empowered and gave you some new coping methods.
I wish someone would say that to my wife...
Thanks GW for checking in on me... Rough last night. Very rough. The evenings are the worst and I can't seem to concentrate on TV, movies, etc. Even when my favorite things are on. Didy walk today, could not yesterday because my eyes were so sensitive from eye appointment. Heavily medicating myself at night to sleep, bad I know.
Tomorrow: Lasik. A bit frightened because it's not straightforward with some oft eye conditions... I was surprised how bad my left eye hurt from the epithial sponging.
But, I've needed to do this for some time now and last year just let the medical spending account funds go to waste much to my H's chagrin.
GW, I've been playing over and over in my mind what you said to me:
"He doesn't love you, he doesn't even know you."
check and mate. Having to drill that reality into my head over and over and over again to block out the fantasies and "love words" my brain wants to go back to (my lumbic brain).
Thanks guys... Trying to reach out to you right now instead if to OM, so forgive me for being so needy. 3 Full days is what I need of thought stopping, no cyberstalking his FB page, etc. It's tough, very tough even though he has backed off completely it generates a desire in me to chase after him.
Not uncommon in love addictions. At least I'm not driving across the country in a diaper like the wacked out astronaut lady. Geesh, I could see the headlines now, Ewwwwww... Talk about an effective thought-stopper!
Come on guys! You can come up with more equally unflattering images for me to plug in whenever the love fantasies start...
And GW, I'll take all the truth filled slaps you can send my way.
I NEED them!!!! This is critical time... Especially when I come home from the eye surgery tomorrow unable to read, watch TV, etc.
Hi FMV!
Long time no talk! I have been off the boards for a while now still working on myself and making a lot of progress. Things have been really busy with me working double time to bring my project in on time after spending the first 6 months of my sitch with no ability to focus on work. I caught up on your old thread (thank you for the really nice note BTW ;)) and it seems like you guys have made a lot of progress and I am so happy for you.
After all the work I did this year I figured I'd kicked them to the curb. But starting to think maybe it's something that will be with me forever, so something I have to manage rather than expect to completely defeat.
That may be the case and I would have to think it would be unreasonable to expect to completely rid yourself of tendencies you have developed over decades of experience. You probably know from my sitch that before my bomb, I had let my once strong sense of self-confidence and self-esteem slide over the years. The bomb sent me to rock bottom. I have spent the last 6 months since dropping the rope seriously working on getting my groove back and I am finally starting to re-discover who I was before I lost myself.
My point in rambling all this (yes, there actually is one!) is that I have learned that personal growth and healthy mental/physical habits are a continual process and not a destination. Growth is like a stock market chart, ups and downs day by day but improvement over the long term. I have two bad days for every good one but whereas I used to spend my energy dissecting the bad ones, I now look forward to the next good one and it really does help to think this way.
Try not think of it as managing it as much as you are going to keep bringing yourself back to the challenge of kicking it to the curb no matter what. You may never completely banish your tendencies but you can sure as heck make them inhabit some rarely visited, dark corner of yourself!
Keep updating us on your sitch, I think I am about to come out of posting retirement. Do you ever get over to the place where all the castaways went?
Take Care
12
New life,
You sound better today...step back and look at how far you have come. It might not seem like a lot, but this is tough stuff and there are baby steps along the way and you have taken a few.
Now you are ready for some more.
You need to heal from the eye surgery...and need to heal from the addiction at the same time. Both will be painful. How about you heal both of them at once and just get over the hump all together. Look at your new vision (literal) as an opportunity for a new vision on life and your M. Deep down you know you want that new vision of your life, you have seen it, you have posted it here, so now make it a reality.
This is the perfect time to start a brand new chapter in your life. Strong and confident New Life, without needing to wear glasses or contacts and not needing to look at a computer screen and some young punk "player" that isn't really in love with you and you are not in love with him. Give yourself a hug and a pick me up. See if you can get H to pamper you a little during your recovery. Make him feel good when he does the smallest thing, make him feel like a strong and important man for being able to handle everything while you are recovering.
And if worse comes to worse, unplug the computer and take the battery out of the cell phone and envision the new you and new future as you want it and set goals to start getting there.
You can do this.
We are here to support you
Hi FMV!
Long time no talk! I have been off the boards for a while now still working on myself and making a lot of progress.
12! You have no idea how great it was to see your post this morning. Couldn't have come at a better time, thank you for that. I'm so happy too, to see you continue to work on yourself and gain your old confidence and esteem - to find yourself again. That's great news.
The last few weeks have been rough ones for me indeed, so hearing about your progress sure lifts my spirits. I'm really glad that I did all the work on my M that I did this spring, because I sure need a soft place to land these days and the M work has helped create that for me. Since Oct, my IC and I have been starting to touch on the old issue - well, she said that traumatized me - when I was younger. It's been so painful and scary. Since I went home a few weekends ago, my sleep's been disturbed to the point that she told me to start taking melatonin, and if that doesn't work it sounds like it will be antidepressants.
And each time I visit home the relationships in my family, and my role in it, bring it all that crap back to the surface again. But I can't not go home because my dad's so ill. Gosh, you're not rambling I am. This isn't even DB stuff so who even knows if it will get edited by the mods. Sorry. Another bad night of sleep and I turn into a blathering idiot. Anyways, sorry for the mind-dump. That's certainly not how I wanted to welcome you back but I just wanted to get this out of my head right now. I hope it helps me concentrate on work today; my head's been such a mess.
Anyways, putting my thinking head back on you're certainly right I like your comments. I've got to run, privacy is a question mark at the moment. Thanks for listening. FMV.
((FMV))
Hoping you have a good day today
GW thanks, I really appreciate it. I'm sorry I haven't been of much support or encouragement to anyone here lately. I just seem to have become a never-ending puddle of tears and upset a depressed sleep-deprived mess. I'm sleeping on the couch because although my H knows I've been having trouble sleeping, he doesn't know that I've been sitting there crying at night. The melatonin helped two nights ago, but last night I didn't take it when I woke up, so I ended up tossing and turning and crying by 5. I've got to make sure I take it tonight if I wake up. Anyways, sorry again. What a pity party.
Please try the "Bright Mood" blend of Omega... My IC recommended to me, and has helped immensely...
Thank you NewLife, I appreciate your support. Is that those Omega 3s? I hadn't heard of that blend. What else is in it, do you know? I admire your tenacity to do your walking... I've lost my motivation to exercise, which I'm sure is also aggravating my low mood.
FMV - take care of yourself. Often that is more important than anything. You've been through a lot and guess what, you can get through this also.
Something in the air this week...lots of us have had a rough week...
FMV
Something in the air this week...lots of us have had a rough week...
That pretty much sums up my week!
How are you doing today FMV?
That pretty much sums up my week!
How are you doing today FMV?
Well hey again 12, I just logged on and there you were! Thanks again for your post yesterday. I'm doing ok tonight. Was able to catch a nap after supper. Lack of sleep can sure mess with your mind. What's going on in your week... what happened? I'm just hanging out here playing my guitar. Happy to listen if you need an ear.
OK... The worst of the "love high" (and lows) are over, but Geesh I had to get eye surgery to distract myself!
In a different phase of pain... Mentally letting go oof the person it made me feel like.
Keep needing to invoke GW's punk comments, see the OM in the most negative way possible (even if not necessarily accurate) to get over it all
Hi FMV
You aren't kidding about the lack of sleep. I think I need to take a month off of work and just sleep! Glad to see you are still playing guitar though. I have been slack about mine because life has been so busy. Are you still running? I am getting to the gym a lot and loving making progress on that front. My car is a complete mess right now too
As for me, things are not really good. I was recently bombed again and it is time to start making some hard decisions that I have been avoiding. I am not posting it because my W may have found this site. This suspicion is why I stopped posting on my sitch back in May.
Anyway, I hope your weekend is good!
Take care - 12
(((12))) Oh, noooo 12. I'm so sorry to hear you were bombed again, and am concerned for you. Lack of sleep's a bugger... if you find it's starting to become a problem, do try out some melatonin. My IC suggested it and it's been a godsend. I had my first full night of sleep last night in about 3 weeks; am still having the WEIRDEST dreams but hey, it was a night of sleep. I'll take it.
I can appreciate your reasons for not posting more details ... but do you have another support system? Someone or a group of friends who you're sharing your concerns with and who can provide you feedback and support?
PS I'd clean my car out this weekend if it weren't under about half a FOOT of snow!! Gaak!
(wish there was a little emoticon that shivered and colored blue with frostbite!)
PS yes the weekend has been ok, thanks for asking! Have worked through most of it but hey, it's 17 below. Who'd wanna be out there anyways?! Me and the pups are hunkering down while H's out at a football game. (crazy!)
New Life -
How are you doing? Sorry I was away for a few days...dealing with my own new crisis. I will try hard to be there for you. Read this site over and over. Heck do me a favor...help me find info on PEA, addictions, all that kind of stuff...because I am trying to find some nuggets at this point. My W gave into her addiction and contacted OM and we are in crisis again and don't know if we will dig out of this one or not.
be strong, stay away from OM. Please, please, please...don't put yourself into this situation that we and my W are in now...it is pure hell. She is now miserable too because she let the addiction get the best of her. Don't do it. Save yourself the pain
GW,
I'm Sooooooo sorry you're in the midst of so much pain...
My most recent PEA info I posted over at Sandi's, but I'll try to find more about what I've read and post here for you. The effects of PEA wear off in about 18 months and switch to endorphins.
Unfortunately, unless your wife doesn't want to learn and go through withdrawal, then you can't control that. Ironically, the best thing for her...and you, is to exercise, and focus on making your life the best it can be.
I'm not sure if she has committed to working on the M with you?
I see my IC today... And even though he's an hour away, so worth it!
Today is good... The Omega's and walking really helping.
VERY glad to hear you are having a good day. W committed to working on us and M over the long haul (year or more is what we had discussed) back in Aug...then she fed the addiction last week...now is not committed to anything other than her own drama and confusion
GW,
May not have time to finish this post completely right now, but saw my IC today... Who is an addiction specialist.
He told me gambling addicts who go to Vegas don't go for the thrill of the big win, but for the excitement and anticipation... The fantasy.
He is having me separate the actual EA from my fantasy EA (Sooooo similar to what FMV went through). See, it's the fantasy that hooks you... Not the reality.
Also spoke about aspects of my H's personality that keep's him from fulfilling the love needs I have... And how the fantasy is filling up that void.
What you are willing to go without in a R at 25 with kids, building a life, etc changes and now I'm seeking that closeness, affirmations that EA Fantasy fulfilled.
It's deep work, harder if EA doesn't respect distance, or worse... Dumps your W, because it makes her crave that more.
GW, I'm just learning myself... And yes, I miss OM alot, but mostly missing fantasy relationship not the reality. It's harder when my husband pushes me away or is disrespectful...
Having to stand up for myself alot now, to him and kids in order take care of myself. But in the long run... Figure I'm doing him a favor.
You are doing him a favor. Don't stop. You realize that is an addiction. That is so great. I am so happy for you, especially given where my M has turned, I am so happy for you. Don't give in. Be a success story
Huh. Just a journal to try and get this sunk into what seems to be my very, very thick skull.
I have the right to be angry or hurt when someone hurts me. I DON'T have to feel guilty for hurting, or for feeling angry, just because the person who hurt me seems to have a good 'reason' or 'justification' for doing so...
- It doesn't matter if their behavior is a result of reacting to their own pain and anger in their life.
- It doesn't matter if the pain that is causing them to hurt me 'seems' larger than the pain their behavior causes me.
- It doesn't matter if they imply that they're hurting me because I caused their pain in the first place.
I STILL have a right to FEEL my own HURT. I HAVE A RIGHT TO FEEL MY OWN ANGER. AND I don't have to disguise or hide my own pain so as not to make them feel guilty for hurting me!!! I DON'T have to hide my own pain so they don't feel guilty for hurting me. I don't have to hide my own pain so they won't feel guilty for hurting me.
God that hurts.
It is healthy to not bottle it up and get it out. Not only do you have a right, you owe it to yourself.
Dear FMV, you most certainly have a right to feel hurt when you are treated badly. If anyone tells you otherwise, then that is poor advice from them. It's human to be hurt when those closest to us are mean, selfish, thoughtless, or in many ways.....a bully.
It doesn't matter if their behavior is a result of reacting to their own pain and anger in their life.
- It doesn't matter if the pain that is causing them to hurt me 'seems' larger than the pain their behavior causes me.
- It doesn't matter if they imply that they're hurting me because I caused their pain in the first place.
If a newcomer posted this on their thread, what would you think about their S and mor importantly, what would you tell that newcomer?
FMV,
you GO girl!
I learned the hard way: it doesn't matter WHY they hurt me, what matters is their actions/words.
If you put your hand on the stove, it's your responsibility to take care of YOU, and pull your hand away if the stove is hot, so you don't get burned.
(((HUG))). You are strong -- you deserve to be pain-free, don't settle for less!!!
Get out of your head about it, and go ahead and be angry.
Angry enough to take care of YOU!
We're both on our way FMV. Moving out of the pain and into our new lives, with all the potential for happiness.
Thinking of you and sending strong thoughts your way...
Thanks and hugs to you all for your support. And i'm sorry... I wasn't speaking about anything specific my H has done recently.
I'm sorry; I feel like I misled; it came out in such a blurt I didn't think to clarify. It's my relationships with people in general, and one person to a greater extent, (not my H) in particular. It just kind of came in a wave before I wrote it and I scrambled for this place to write it down.
Still I am always surprised at the 'layers' it takes to understand some of these concepts. My IC has been trying to get me to understand how I judge my feelings for so long... my whole life really. And I'd think... "oh yah I get it, BUT THIS hurt, or THIS anger... really IS wrong to feel because of ...blah blah blah." Well duh...If that's not self-judgement, what the heck is? I get it now.
And I think I'm getting why I did it. Because when you stop judging your feelings... when you stop giving yourself reasons why you SHOULDN'T feel them...
you start feeling them. And crap some of them are really hurting; and there's a sh*tload of anger in there I don't want to deal with either. With this particular situation, I don't know HOW to get angry or HOW to hurt about it, without judging myself for it. So I guess another step to learn. Anyways. Back to work. Thank you for continuing to read and support me. It's so greatly appreciated.
Well I am glad to hear it wasn't something specific that came from your H.
When I read this post, it makes me wonder if your were raised around a particlar person who was very critical where you were concerned. I had a very critical person in my life and it caused me to have low self-esteem until I was grown and up into my twenties. It is something about a critical spirit toward you that just breaks down your attempts at having self-confidence. I think when a parent is harsh or expects perfection from a child, it certainly can cause some barriers developing good mental health.
Thankfully, my H is not the critical type, but my sister M a man who is mentally abusive and it's hard to watch her cow down under his behavior. I think I've told you about that. What I can't understand is the few times she did stand up for herself....he respected her for it and it actually made their R better.
I think that is true in most R, be it M, friendship, co-workers or whoever.
I think it's good that you are able to express yourself here.
((hugs))
I think it's good that you are able to express yourself here. ((hugs))
Thank you and hugs back to you Sandi, that means so much to me. I'm sad to hear your sister is still suffering; she and your families will be in my thoughts. I hope that the spirit that enabled her to stand up to him those few times will be uncovered again soon.
I was actually raised by a mom who basically taught me that her feelings were more important than mine; that if I needed comfort I should feel guilty because my comfort, my happiness... came at the expense of her pain, her sacrifice; although she was entitled to lay her problems at my feet and vent her anger, cry and ask for my comfort, and advice. I think my mom was deeply in need of help herself, and although as a young person I'd beg her to seek counselling, she never did, claiming that she had 'no problem'.
Now. With that being said please know that I HATE the thought of blaming my mom. She did the very best she could and gave up a lot for us all. And I'm very aware that there's many of us here who would give their eye-teeth to still have a mother, regardless of the nature of the relationship. So it's been a VERY painful and guilt-inducing struggle for me to acknowledge my own pain around my childhood. The thought of actually being angry at someone for doing something they perhaps could not control is very scary. So I think what I wrote and came to today, is an important step for me.
Anyways, it came as a surprise to me, after learning to assert myself and make such big changes in my M, that I wasn't able to make the same changes within my oldest role - that of a daughter. Well, maybe I shouldn't be surprised after all. Maybe those are the most difficult ones to change. Thank you again for your insights and support Sandi. Please have a wonderful thanksgiving this week.
FMV.
Oh! Sandi! I'm so sorry. I just reread your post and had missed your comment about your own experiences with a very critical person in your life, and how it affected your self-esteem. I'm so sorry to hear that. I feel bad for rattling on about my own sitch and missing that! Many hugs to you... tell me, if you feel comfortable sharing... how did you come to reclaim your self-confidence in your twenties?
Whew... ladies, this discussion really hits home! Sandi, I'm realizing so much of my dysfunction goes back to my Mom/older sister (who were coping with their own crisis when I was small). Working on M is involving working on sell-parenting and boundary issues with ALL of my relationships as part of my self-care plan.
I just wanted to share this with you both from Susan Peabody's book:
Forgiving others – In his book, Alcoholic Anonymous, author Bill Wilson, discusses forgiveness, and say it’s not done to please others, but in the interest of self. – In Toxic Parents, Susan Forward says this, “You may be asking yourself, “ Isn’t the first step to forgive my parent?” My answer is no…It is not necessary to forgive your parents in order to feel better about yourself and to change your life…Why in the world should you “Pardon” a father who terrorized and battered you, who made your childhood a living hell? Early in my professional career I too believed to forgive people who had injured you, especially your parents, was an important part of the healing process….The more I thought about it, I realize this absolution was another form of denial….One of the most dangerous thing about forgiveness is that it undercuts your ability to let go of your pent-up emotions. How can you acknowledge your anger against a a parent whom you’ve already forgiven? – The question is this : Is it possible that both Bill Wilson and Susan Forward are both right? Yes, Susan Forward is correct when she says we must own our anger. Anger is honest. Anger in the right setting is therapeutic. Anger can lead to justice. Anger can free us from tyranny. And by coming out against forgiveness, Forward allows us to take our time without shame. Bill Wilson in my opinion is also right. If we stop resenting people, we feel better about ourselves and others. This changes us and our lives. This is why I believe forgiveness is the ultimate goal no matter how long it takes. – If you decide that forgiveness if for you, it might be helpful to realize that letting go off anger does not mean that you have to like the person or continue to let that person to persecute you. Actually, you don’t even have to be around the person who hurt you if you don’t want to. – “You know, God asks us to love our neighbours and our enemies alike, but some people you just have to love at a distance.” – Forgiveness is not a constant state. It ebbs and flows like the tide. Sometimes you feel good about those who hurt you and other times you feel the anger all over again. But this doesn’t mean, you haven’t progressed. I’ve found that, as long as I ask God for the strength to release my anger, or announce it in my support group that I am going to “turn it over” or tell my therapist I am really tired of these resentments and want them to go away, the anger comes less and less often. People should not be told to forgive when they are not ready. They shouldn’t be shamed by others, and they should not shame themselves. They should push themselves gently in the right direction."
HAPPY THANKSGIVING! I am so thankful to have found you both and your wisdom... you truly saved me from going down a BAD road, and I thank you for your generous and honest sharing at a critical time.
Love and Happiness to you...
Morning New Life, wow - that's a lot to think about. Forgiveness... that's a tough thing. I had forgiveness rather shoved down my throat from a young age. I didn't DARE hold my mom accountable for any of her hurtful words or actions - neither in my own heart and mind, nor in communication with her. Forgiveness wasn't just expected of me, it was demanded. It doesn't matter what she said or did to me. It was my job to forgive, forget so that she could turn around and do it all to me again, the next time her stress levels built up too much. So to me, forgiving her just drags me into that dizzying downward spiral again. And I think I've still got too much anger and pain I need to release to make expecting forgiveness of myself, a healthy option.
It would be nice to think that 'ebb and flow' might flow my way and that I could forgive her. Eh. Maybe yes maybe no. I don't know about that now that I see it written. Anyways, just writing about it this has been making my heart start to pound and I can feel my mood start sinking again, so I better stop thinking about it. But thank you again for your thoughts - I appreciate it alot. Take care, FMV.
Oh, and I'm sorry... I didn't ask you about your comments on your background..If you'd want to share, I'm very interested to hear more about your self-parenting and boundary work. It sounds like our pasts have confronted us both with eerily similar issues...
No worries FMV... Let's just say I COMPLETELY relate!!!
The important thing (about anger, forgiveness) is to do it on YOUR terms.
Take good care, and have an awesome Thanksgiving!
And I think I've still got too much anger and pain I need to release to make expecting forgiveness of myself, a healthy option.
I would think that forgiveness is a state of mind that will be difficult to attain, regarding your mother, but attainable. It is a continual process of expression, acceptance, clarity, perspective, and then compassion. It's hard for me to imagine what that state of mind would be like. I can understand conceptually a Jesus or Buddha-like perfection, but can't picture how that would be for me. If I've allowed myself to be expressive, accepting (facing the truth), have increasing objectivity about the target person, with increasing compassion, then I'm on the right path, even if there are conflcting emotions. You sound like you're in the stage of facing difficult emotions, expressing them, breaking patterns of self-judgment and emotional reactivity, and gaining clarity about your mother.
CL
FMV,
I'm sorry for the pain you're experiencing right now. Family of origin issues are the most difficult to deal with, because they take us right back to all those emotions which we couldn't yet understand or deal with when we were small, and yet are agonizing to have to wade through now in order to live them, own them, and ultimately discard them.
I just want to assure you that it is definitely worth reexamining the past, because it allows you to have a future free of all the unfair miseries which were visited on you as a child. I've related this before, but I was molested as a child by my parents' best friend, a man who was like another father to me (at least that's what everyone thought...). Really looking at that relationship and its results took me years before I was ready to face it. However, having got to the other side of forgiving this man, means I'm actually fine with the fact that all these things happened to me.
For years, I was angry that he effectively isolated me from the rest of my family (who only have good memories of him), that he made it difficult for me to trust others, have a "normal" sex life, etc, etc. I didn't think I'd ever be able to forgive him, because he has never apologized or shown remorse. Besides, he didn't deserve it!
The process of forgiveness taught me that forgiveness actually has NOTHING to do with the perpetrator of the hurt. Sure, you learn to show them some compassion for their incapacity to be the sort of parent you required. Other than that, it's about acknowledging the false beliefs about yourself and the world which the abuse created in you, and choosing to affirm what's best and strongest about you--what allowed you to survive and rise beyond what you experienced.
I know exactly what you mean about thoughts of the abuse leading to sinking feelings, but post forgiveness it's just impossible to feel that any more. Also, the kind of forgiveness demanded of you as a child was false because it was forced, whereas the kind you choose for yourself is an act of self-affirmation.
That said, forgiveness is absolutely your choice to make, and can only be done on your timeline. It took me 20 years to get there. However, if you ever reach a point where you think, "You know, I hate wasting another moment of my life thinking about this old stuff--I just want to live my life for me as though this had never happened," that would be the time you could talk to your therapist about exploring forgiveness.
Meanwhile, please be very gentle with yourself. Your were denied proper nurturing as a child, so be that nurturing figure for yourself now. Trust me, the pain you're going through will be worth it once you get to the other side. You're a very strong person to have made it through everything you've gone through--blessings.
(((Cyrena)))) This is the third time I've started a reply to you; each time I end up in a puddle of tears and I still can't adequately express my thanks. I do want to comment further but need some time to reread, to think. I do want to say though before I go, how sad and sorry I am to hear of your abuse. I admire your courage and the strength it must have taken to get to the other side; to forgive and heal. I am quite in awe of you and so grateful for your kindness in posting to me today. Blessings to you as well; FMV.
CL, thanks to you as well; I'm sorry I meant to reply to you in my post above... your support is also so greatly appreciated. (((CL)))
Other than that, it's about acknowledging the false beliefs about yourself and the world which the abuse created in you...
This made my jaw drop... I can see exactly what you're talking about. It's like you've been in some of my appts with my IC with me. We've been working on this alot since Oct. And it's been since then that my mood has fallen so much. So it gives me hope to read the next part of that sentence...
and choosing to affirm what's best and strongest about you--what allowed you to survive and rise beyond what you experienced.
I do hope that's what will come from this. When you talked about not wanting to waste another moment of life thinking about this old stuff... I SO want to get there. Those memories, they just swirl around and around in my brain getting bigger and more upsetting until I practically feel like hitting my head against the wall to make it stop; to just shut it all off (which of course I wouldn't do.. but you know what I mean?). But still, I know I'm not ready to forgive. There's another, bigger aspect to this that I can't write about here, that it sounds like I haven't dealt with yet. When I think about THAT, I feel just... well, numb. Empty. Even less than empty. Like I wasn't even there, but I know I was. And it seems really odd to me, that don't have any feelings about it; nor did I when it happened. I think maybe that's why all these other things won't go away...maybe once I deal with that; all this other stuff will start to ease and then maybe... possibly... get to where I can start thinking about how to forgive it all.
Meanwhile, please be very gentle with yourself. Your were denied proper nurturing as a child, so be that nurturing figure for yourself now.
Thanks for saying that...really. It's so hard for me to process b/c I STILL judge myself (grrr) for being upset that I didn't get it. I think ... there's so many people that got even LESS that I did; so many people who didn't even HAVE parents... who am I to look at some of the good parts I DID get and turn my nose up at it because of the bad. Again, dizzying. And again I must stop thinking about this; so much work to do. But again, thank you. I can't tell you how reassuring it is to hear someone say 'yes, I understand.' Take care, FMV.
I know what you mean about the memories seeming to consume your mind, being bigger than anything else going on in your life. And also how you can feel numb about abuse even as it's occurring. I have few memories of the abuse--more like of being in various locations while SOMETHING was happening, distracting myself with my surroundings. My C explained that if a child's brain is in fight-or-flight mode, but neither is possible, she shuts down (hence the numbness). The anger is still inside, but hard to access because it's not connected to time, emotion, physical sensations, etc.
For me, the hardest part was being afraid that once I really looked at the past, I'd be destroyed by stuff that was obviously so difficult that my brain had buried all memories of it the first time around. But it wasn't really like that. Apart from a few flashbacks, it didn't come back. The pain was terrible, yet ... then it was gone. I saw the past couldn't hurt me anymore, because I was so much stronger now than as a child. Also, I wanted my life to be about ME, not defined by the actions of another, deficient person.
I judged myself too--for not stopping the abuse sooner, for not trying to tell people, for not managing to persuade them when I did tell them, for putting myself in the same category as people abused in much more horrendous ways.... Then, I began to tell myself that I had NOT been to blame as a child, and that since then I'd done the best to cope given the skills I'd developed to that point, and processed the abuse with all the speed I was capable of. I took a break from spending much time with my family, because it was too stressful for me, and did that for myself regardless of how family members might choose to interpret it.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being upset that you didn't get the ideal situation which every child deserves. It's something you need to grieve. Afterwards, there's time to develop gratitude for what you WERE given--but first that silenced, hurt child needs to be listened to and acknowledged.
Take care, FMV (a wonderful name, by the way)!
tell me, if you feel comfortable sharing... how did you come to reclaim your self-confidence in your twenties?
I think being in new positions at work, and other areas ofmy life, and branching out in things I didn't know I could do. Then, discovering some things that I could do.....and do it well. At first, receiving compliments about the job I had done (or whatever it might be)boosted my confidence, but as I grew I realized that I should not consider my worth or if I had done a good job or not....based on what others said or thought. I had to know within myself that I had given it all I had and if I fell short of expections (mine included) it didn't delete my value or worth as a person. I have to watch that last part so that I don't grade myself based on
what I do. Worth is not based on performance.
I heard a preacher say that most of us need to stop trying to "do".....and just "be".
I use to read a lot, and self-improvement books were at the top of the list. I also learned that just b/c you have a person that is critical does not mean
you are wrong. That person who is so critical is the one with a problem! My focus had to be that I did not catch the disease and find myself with a critical heart.
The pain was terrible, yet ... then it was gone. I saw the past couldn't hurt me anymore, because I was so much stronger now than as a child. Also, I wanted my life to be about ME, not defined by the actions of another, deficient person.
Your whole post again is very reassuring Cyrena. Thank you. This I felt in particular, was very empowering. I'll hang onto these thoughts as best I can.
Take care, FMV (a wonderful name, by the way)!
Thanks! I can't take credit for it though... I'm a big Harriet Lerner fan and this is from her work.
Thank you too Sandi for your insights. I appreciate your comments about self-worth. My IC and I talk alot about the concept of worth. I wonder sometimes if I'll ever fully believe in it and never look back. Perhaps for me, it's just going to be a life-long work in progress; sometimes there and sometimes slipping back to what it had (or hadn't been) as a child. IDK.
I also learned that just b/c you have a person that is critical does not mean you are wrong. That person who is so critical is the one with a problem!
It's interesting you'd say this. When you first started talking about criticism, I thought... well I don't think that was my case. But this comment makes me wonder, if maybe it really was...
I think the criticism I lived with came across as accusations. She'd accuse me of thinking, feeling and believing all sorts of horrid things about her... things I never ever would have felt or thought. And I'd be left to defend myself against things I didn't even feel. I'm starting feel now, what I likely didn't know I felt (as a result of these accusations) at the time - frightened, panicked, angry, helpless. And then after the fact, I'd start to wonder... "oh my gosh... DO I think and feel these horrid she's accusing me of??? Maybe I do and I just don't know it??" I think that was when I began to learn that I shouldn't trust myself, my opinions, my feelings. When I started to believe the blame and accusations more than I believed my own thoughts... or in my own self; and started really, to loathe myself for all these things that I 'must' feel, because she told me I felt them. Yuck. What a twisted mess.
It sounds as if she had a lot of problems about herself. That would have been very hard for any kid to overcome.
((hugs))
Just a journal; still trying to sort my thoughts. I know this isn't M stuff. I guess I've just gotten used to releasing this crap here. Please don't feel like you have to respond; it does help just to write. Anyways, Sandi, Yes, she did/does have a lot of problems whether she wants to admit it or not. It's very sad. Thanks for the hugs. Hugs back to you for your kindness.
I went for a nice long walk by myself last night; it was pretty, the snow is still fresh and some folks have their xmas lights up already. It felt good to be out in the quiet and dark but I found old memories just kept tagging along with me. At times it felt like I was trudging along, dragging a heavy wagon behind me with my mom in it complaining and angry and crying... and I wanted to let go of the handle, but when I imagined letting it go, the image of her sitting all alone in it on the sidewalk, popped into my brain, she was crying and begging me to come back, all alone and frightened as I walked away. It made me as angry as it did break my heart.
So then of course I couldn't get to sleep AGAIN til late again last night and started to wonder if it's time to stop going to therapy. Nothing is going to change what has been, and it seems like I've just been getting more sad and angry... well... at least I've gotten in touch with my 'angry' again. But what's the point of it. I've been angry before. I was very angry about this same old thing in my 30s. Yes I was judging myself for it back then, but at least I know I'd felt it for a time. And the only result? I'd become so disagreeable and unhappy, my H and I started having troubles and he'd told me he was thinking of leaving me. So I just don't get it. My IC keeps saying I'm supposed to 'feel' my emotions. But when there's nothing you can do about them, no one you can hold accountable... what's the point? It seems like feeling them is just making them more intense and is getting me nowhere.
I'm sorry, FMV--this must be SUCH a difficult minefield to try to wade through. I admire your strength and determination--I know you will make things better for yourself.
I'm wondering--what was your mother's childhood like? Was she subjected to the same kind of mental and emotional abuse, or was it a mental imbalance in her case?
Morning Cyrena; sorry to be crying on your shoulder again.
I don't know much about her father because he died before I was born, but I think he had a pretty bad temper. No physical abuse there but likely some mental/emotional. Her mom had a heart of gold.
This is exactly when you need to be crying on shoulders and unburdening yourself. It's what makes this place so important.
It's great that you are willing to go further than your mother and grandfather did: to admit that a problem exists and to tackle it and end the cycle. That takes such guts, and also such self-love, that you would go through the pain to make your life better.
I understand what you're saying about feeling as though you either have to swallow the sadness and anger or go through cycles of feeling them and getting nowhere. I just want to reassure you that there is another possibility: that you feel them and release them.
In my case, my abuser made me both a victim and a caretaker of HIS needs. It was difficult for me to put my needs first, because caretaking become ingrained in me. Even when I managed to push him out of my life, I still took care of others: my family (who couldn't come to terms with what I told them happened), my kids, etc. But I didn't really know how to look after myself in a non-critical way--I didn't really believe I deserved it.
I felt as though having been victimized changed me in ways that made me different from other people. But in a way, I was clinging to what I knew. I didn't realize it, but I was afraid to think of myself as NOT a victim, as just an ordinary human being who goes through the suffering that's part of the human condition.
What I'm getting from your "vision" during your walk is that you, too, are at a point where you would like to throw away the burdens your mother laid on you. But you don't know who you'd be without that story, without the anger, without the caretaking--who you'd be if you were just FMV, without the victim-story. It seems as though the anger and sadness won't leave you, but isn't it possible that you aren't quite ready to shed them--because it seems as though that would have to leave a void.
I think it is possible for you to stop pulling the wagon, once you're ready. Forgiveness is a way of changing the story. If you imagine taking the wagon to some place your mother would have loved (a cathedral; a cottage by the lake; some place where she was happy) and releasing her into the care of some beneficent force (Jesus, Mary, her own Higher Self, the spirit of her golden-hearted mother...) in a loving manner, how does that feel?
((((HMV)))) I know it feels as though you're been going around in circles, but I think you have made a lot of progress, even if you can't yet see that.
(((FMV)))
Wish I had something to offer, other than you are an incredibly resiliant person, keep it up.
Hi FMV -
I know you don't know me but I'm unravelling a verbally/emotionally abusive marriage and of course it goes back to my mother too. I so relate to what you are saying that when someone tells you who you are, what you think, what you mean, etc, you can get confused as to what you actually do think and feel.
Please accept this quote if it fits, and discard it if it doesn't - it's from Patricia Evan's Verbal Abuse site:
"Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. The best way to deal with a verbally abusive relationship, whether you are the target of verbal abuse or the perpetrator, is to find out everything you can about verbally abusive relationships and their dynamics. Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining."
I know this is no answer, but hopefully a validation of what you have experienced. (())
Cyrena, GW and Hope4Luv, thank you all - thank you so much for sharing your insights and support with me. Cyrena, I love the imagery you've given me, to take my wagon to my grandma's spirit and let mom be with her... my grandma had a stroke so young, when my siblings and I were just babies, actually. So although she had a heart of gold I know that there's so much 'mothering' my mom missed out on as well. It feels nice to think that I could 'leave' her there so she could get the comfort and guidance she needed so badly too. Perhaps that might give me the mental 'space' to find my own comfort too.
GW, thank you so much... your ongoing encouragement and positive words give me courage.
Hope4Luv, thank you so much for posting to me. This quote is very validating... hearing those two 'sides' - that one person blames and accuses, the other defends and explains is so eye-opening to see in a resource like that. It's odd to see it in b&w like that, you know? I'll definitely read more on that site - thank you for sharing. I'm also sorry to hear of your struggles... I read some of your thread this morning before work and I'll continue to read so I can return your kind support.
Hugs and warm thoughts back to you all, FMV.
It looks like I've reached the golden 100 count; I guess this thread is closed; I'll start another one soon. Hugs to all. FMV.
Wonder what happened to New Life?
Wonder what happened to New Life?
I know... I have wondered many times myself. I feel badly that I 'closed' the thread now.
FMV
Just stopping by to say Merry Christmas! I hope all is well with you.
Thanks for stopping by 12; Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well. Things are ok here. Hope all is well with you also.