I said I would start a thread here and it took me about 6 weeks to get that done.
I don't know how to link my newcomers threads, but short version is WAW in Oct 09, bomb dropped in Nov 09, discover EA in Dec 09 and discover DB about the same time I learn of OM. Expose the affair and now that I'm piecing and know everything, they just went deeper undercover...new e-mail accounts, two different pay as you go phones, using chat programs on iphones, etc
Apr 10 - W decides she wants to "try"...that lasts one week. In May, again wants to "try"...that lasts one week. June, same thing and this time she tells me she has ended it with OM and while snooping I see emails to confirm that...and it lasts one week. July, W says that's it, we're done, want D and she even tells me about other past As.
We move with the kids, driving across the US and it is stressful but I can sense some second thoughts on her part, but also know she is still communicating with OM. Dropp off W, take the kids with me, let her go...and two days later she is an absolute wreck, in tears, regretting what she has done, asking for another chances.
After thinking it through, setting some boundaries, gaining transparency, we decide to piece our marriage back together. That was in early Aug.
Piecing has gone well. We had the "2nd honeymoon stage" for a little bit and now have setteled into our new home, new life, new M. We got through our first couple significant arguments which was tough but we survived.
A couple of days ago, as I had predicted, OM contacted W again via e-mail. W didn't believe he would. She had told him never again and that basically she didn't like the person she had become because of him and didn't like the person he was now that she really had gotten to know him better. Email from OM was to "thank her" for all she had done and for their relationship and for showing him/giving him the strength to now tell his W he wants a D. So it was really to let my W know he was going back on the open market.
She assured me she would not reply, and it was genuine. So we continue to piece but it sucks knowing the snake (as my friend Lost Rabbit has so adequately termed him) continues to lurk in the background.
The hardest part for me to this point is letting go of thinking about OM and past As. Gaining trust is not easy either, but my W is trying very, very hard to show/prove she has chosen me and will never go back and is willing to make this work.
We have also agreed to Retrouville, but have to wait for a weekend session close enough to attend and find someone to watch the kids.
I owe a ton of people a ton of thanks. I would have never made it this far without these boards!
Hi GW! It's so good to hear from you. I hope you will be around often, helping others here on the board. Piecing is tough but it can work.
Hey Sandi - great to hear from you.
Yes piecing is tough work, been at it about 6 weeks now and there have been tough times. First argument was tough. Worrying about slipping back has been tough for both of us.
For me, gaining back trust is still my #1 stumbling block...but I didn't put all this effort and fight in to just give up now.
Things really are looking positive. W is committed to rebuilding. W is committed to ensuring I see/know she will not start communicating with OM again nor any other OM...even with OM not getting a D from his W.
The depression issues seem to truly have been driven by her internal struggle of trying to juggle two men. As you know from all your help on my sitch, she never walked, never completely shut the door on me...and as I now know, she and OM never stopped contact for more than a week. W didn't like the person she had become and that's what drove the depression issues.
And yes, I am giving as much time as I can find to trying to help others. Our life conintues to be insanely busy, but I will give back where I can even if it just means offering support/encouragement
Did your W ever see a specialist about her hormone/depression problems?
Depression yes, hormones no.
Though these days, the "feelings are back"...she told me not to worry, they were completely back. This was about a week after she told me they were coming back.
She went on medication for the depression, but the root cause of the depression seems to have been the guilt/internal struggle of what she was doing. She couldn't handle juggling a EA with OM and still being M and faking it with me and even more so, says she didn't like the person she had become...
I think it helps a WAW in an A to see the OM's attraction start of fade. If she can leave the A seeing him less than what she thought he was in the beginning, then I believe she has a better chance of staying out of contact with him.
If a woman leaves the A still believing OM was her only chance at true happiness....then it's going to be very hard for her to stick to her resolve not to check up and see how he's doing.
So, I hope this will help you to relax a little bit more. I pray for your M b/c I believe you are a great guy with a sweet little family.
Thanks Sandi! Good to see you back and helping people with your computer up and running. You have a lot to offer. And thanks for your nice words and encouragement.
Things continue to go well for us. We have our ups and downs, but all in all, we continue to do well.
I am still trying to deal with everything that I know went on and still working on the forgiveness piece--some of the recent posts on forgiveness have really helped me think about things and think thru things. W has told me a lot about their EA, she doesn't like to talk about it, but is willing too if it helps me...that is what she has told me.
I hope and think you are probably right about the attraction fading. She has told me a few things that show it was fading for the last month despite the fact she was holding onto the EA, they were planning a get together shortly after the move, etc...
These days we both still see his name and see comments from him occassionally. We all have a mutual friend on facebook. One comment by OM led her to say "can you believe that, I would have had a real problem with that, that's not how I want our kids to be brought up." (he is spoiling his kids, he grew up very affluent and has family money...my W and I didn't grow up priveleged like that). So again, hopefully seeing he isn't only chance at true happiness
And at one point a couple of weeks after OM contacted W and we were having one of those down times to work thru, she said there was a part of her that wanted to contact OM but it wasn't worth it...she said: a part of me wants to tell him what a pompous @ss he is for sending me that email and saying the things he did.
Gut, I hope I have a similiar outcome.. the scenarios are eerily similiar
GW, I think it is more the "fantasy" than the OM/EA. I went through it but I don't know how to explain it.
I hope I am not repeating myself, but I would like to share something that I found to be very helpful on the subject of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not based on whether or not the person deserves it, b/c in most cases.....they don't. Forgiveness is based on "us", the forgiver. It is who & what we are, not the one we are forgiving.
Thanks Sandi. No, not a repeat. I will read that one over a few times also.
And I think I do get what you are saying about fantasy...hadn't heard it put like that...but I could certainly see my W getting caught up in the fantasy, despite the fact that it drove her to such low depths of self esteem and such high levels of guilt. Fantasy actually helps me deal with it and get my mind around it, wow. Thanks again!
You are welcome. I forget sometimes if I've already said all of the stuff about how a woman gets to fantazing. Not sure which comes first in every case,the fantasy or OM, but they are connected! When the fantasy is attached to a man.....then it is her dream world that she created that's hard to let go and turn around and face her reality and decide to live in it.
When I use terms like "dream world", I mean it was her escape from reality. She was buying into her dream and believing she could have a brand new beginning with another man and her troubles would disappear and automatic happiness would come.
That's why it is good that she is beginning to see some tarnish to show up in OM.
I have every confidence in you and that you will be able to overcome this dreadful time in your M. That fact that she is willing....well, that's a huge part of piecing.
Hi GW,
I am so incredibly happy for you. I do see some similarities in your situation as mine. I think my H was also depressed trying to juggle M and OW. He was extremely guilt ridden... still is but seems to be coming out of his depression with us separated and him filing for D. I think he is in the fantasy of finding his happiness.
Why I am really posting here though is to thank you so much for being willing to give back. I wondered why you had even bothered posting on my site since so many of the 'experts' haven't (I kind of assumed they feel I don't have much of a chance of being a success at this point). You have helped me significantly by your words of encouragement and I can't thank you enough. I don't know where I would be without this site.
Thank you so much. I am so happy for you that the two of you have decided to try piecing. You deserve it, you worked so hard.
B
GW, you're welcome. I am thrilled to see you in piecing
I was once in an open R (long distance with STBXH about a million years ago). I found it very stressful to juggle men...not my cup of tea at all. Having recently had two men giving me serious attention I know all too well how intoxicating that is. But it doesn't feel good to hurt people and not be honouring a relationship by giving oneself fully to it.
Marriage crisis, and even becoming a parent, shakes us to the core. It's a really good time for you to strengthen yourself as a man. I highly recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Way-Superior-Man-Spiritual-Challenges/dp/1889762105The more you can tune into your masculine essence, the better you will feel about yourself and the more your W will be attracted to you. Seriously, the author articulates things in a way that most women wouldn't be able to.
Oh, and I would suggest that your W block OM's email address. Also you could both make up an excuse for defriending mutual friend on FB. That stuff is not helpful.
Just journaling a little I guess. I don't know. I know I can handle this. But it has been a rough few days. Piecing still going well, but been some rough stuff to deal with.
W had a down period of sorts, dealing with the past. She was feeling "self pity" over wasting the last year of her life and our life. She needed to talk, so I listened, but it was hard. Learned a ton more of the details of their R, their plans, their A, etc. Proved a lot of what DB and these boards profess...I could do a whole post on things that confirm what the vets preach here. Proved what a snake OM was. Trying to control my W and how she interacted with me, other "flings" he was having on the side, his lack of care/concern for our kids, etc, etc...I could go on and on. My wife said she wanted out of the mess and knew what she was doing was wrong, "but I couldn't stop."
Not sure if any of the piecers there have advice on how to deal with hearing all the details of a long EA
I guess the good news is no secrets and W is talking out loud about all his faults.
That was this weekend. I had gotten past this when OM emails W again. This is the second time. The first being about a month or so ago. This time was a "heads-up" becuase he ran into a friend of ours and they talked about my W and he was providing a heads up to W in case he mentioned something while I was around. The best part of the email was hearing how scared/nervous he was of what my W or I might have told this friend who is also a superior in OM's line of work. I could at least envision this POS, snake in the grass, OM almost pissing his pants!
And on the positive side, once again W immediately tells me about his email and reads it to me. This time he used FB messaging, I'm guessing because she ignored the email to an account they used to use and he stated in that email that he didn't know if she used it anymore.
So we are both still dealing with the pain. We both still committed. We are communicating much better and still working on getting even better. And OM continues to try to rope her back in (in my opinion, my W isn't so sure that is what he is trying to do).
Hey gw,
not much to offer but still following along. You are much further then I am.
The pseudo-attempt from W to R has fizzled out. I'm moving towards D now.
Hang in there.
You both need to block him on facebook.
How about exposing him at work? Would that also get your W in trouble? I'm sorry you had to listen to all the stuff that confirms what an addiction your W was in. But yes the ggod news is you two are talking openly. You are committed. This is huge. But still must be painful. Don't forget to take some time for yourself to process your feelings - journal, talk to a friend, etc. It's awful to find out how much you were lied to. I know. So allow yourself your feelings. You'll get through.
Evolve - reply to you so I stop threadjacking...
Thanks Evolve. Appreciate the thoughts and words. Now just journaling a little:
This stuff is real tough too. Even when the WAS "comes back" there is so much baggage...and just not the same level of commitment or knowledge like those of us that came here and learned all this stuff. Supposedly my W has read the 5LL book (before we started reconciling) and she has never said a word to me about it. You mention melting from those looks...well those looks from me were genuine, my W knew it and loved it, and hours later crying about lingering feelings for OM.
I was attracted to a man that I otherwise would never have been attracted to. He didn't have half the attributes that my H had. He wasn't better looking, he wasn't smarter, he wasn't kinder but he listened and that made me feel important. I knew he wanted me and that made me feel attractive when my self-esteem was at its lowest. I now know that I was using him as a crutch for all of the above reasons.
Wow - that is some awesome insight...think there is a lot of similarities to my W.
Hey Gut,
I amy have my first date with W this weekend. I'm new to the piceing. Is there any posts of threads that stand out that help early on?
thanks gr8
No, not that I can think of. My advice, you need to start to create a second honeymoon...help get through those first few weeks and give you something positive to build upon. Because you will need it. It's not easy over here either.
Ok - after further review...try these:
1) TIps for newcomers to pieceing
2) Stitching together a new quilt (finding my voice)
3) Hope4Us's thread
Journaling and stuggling.
It feels like we at a crossroads. Maybe I just know too much from my WAS that had an EA. It sounds like they all go thru this but maybe don't share. I don't know. I know my W is suddenly having lots of feelngs for OM. A comment that she felt like the novel/movie the Bridges of Madison County.
I sense that I am losing her. It feels like we are really heading downhill fast right now. Its all about her feelings for OM. It feels like I am losing her...and I told W that. She replied that she was very sad that she was making me feel that way and was sorry. Key though, she didn't say I was wrong. I mentioned that. Then I got the same kind of thing that she is trying to deal with all this right now, to let her deal with it.
And a comment about the financial obligations we have ourselves in now that we were piecing, how she couldn’t get her mind around the financial security aspect of things before, there is no way she could get her mind wrapped around it now. Then she said great, now you are thinking if it wasn’t for this house, then I’d be leaving. I admitted that had crossed my mind.
I validated her feelings, that they were hers and I couldn’t change them and that they are important but that I was having trouble understanding how drastically they had changed since Aug.
The anger inside me wants to just how her the financial situation and say here’s how we would do it and give her the get out of the M card that I wonder if she is looking for. Oh, and FMV, no date night tonight. Couldn’t find a sitter for the kids and that almost led to an argument because I was still calling around and W said its too late now, we have to cancel it.
Just to make things a littel more interesting, she has leaves for a week for business trip on Sunday afternoon.
So what now I debate? Do I continue to try to re-ignite the spark and fill her love tanks with her LLs? Do I start to go distant and just give space? Or? Things were going great, right till the point where feelings for OM resurfaced and she keeps telling me she just needs to deal with them
Not having a good day
Things were going great, right till the point where feelings for OM resurfaced and she keeps telling me she just needs to deal with them. Not having a good day.
Morning GW, so sorry to hear how anxious things feel for you right now. Can you expand on this statement above... can you think about specifically what was going on right before her feelings for OM resurfaced? Between the two of you...it sounded like the two of you haven't had a lot of time to connect lately? It sounds, too, like there's some significant financial worries? Work? Kids?
PS - Don't forget, date night can still happen at home! We do that sometimes when work's been crazy and we're too swacked to go out. Our last date night 'in', my H picked up a bottle of wine, went to the deli and brought home all these little cheeses, fruit, crackers and made a little picnic for us, right in the living room. We left the tv off and just talked and ate. It was great.
I wish I knew exactly what brought about the feelings again. I have one thing my W told me and some speculation...I will share both.
My W said it was us talking about him that brought back the feelings, but that doesn't quite add up in my brain because we hadn't been talking much about him. She also said something about the month of October being significant...that isn't the word she used, but that was the message. From what I can gather, Oct is when it became really serious and they even started talking about M.
Now what my speculation is that it is due more to the fact that the snake in the grass OM sent her an email. I think that coupled with it being October and just the resentment fading away and her maybe forgetting why she decided on us verses them all together brought it all back...and what I've learned from others that it just doesn't go away that quickly.
There aren't significant financial worries. We are better off than most couples. However, a huge need for my W is financial security. I have always filled that need. It was one thing she was extremely worried about with OM because he simply didn't care about that. So, that always linger. The situation is even more amplified now. We moved into a new house and signed a 3 year lease with a very high rent payment and hired a live in nanny...so there are some financial commitments we have made. This house couldn't be afforded on one salary without significantly dipping into savings which of course would get divided in half if we split...so the problem compounds and makes her even more nervous about the financial side of things.
Work is stressing her out this week, I know that probably isn't helping.
And I am getting tired of being the only one fighting for the connection time that is SO IMPORTANT TO HER. I feel like I am the only one who is trying to schedule/find that quality time. The more she struggles with feelings for OM, the less effort I see from her, and then of course that makes me even more anxious (and angry), and it is a vicious circle.
My anxiety is likely to go thru the roof next week when she is gone. I know for a fact she has seriously considered and is probably still considering contacting OM to try to put these feelings to bed and deal with them. She also knows that I would find that as ultimate disrespect and that I think it would send us down a path of not being able to recover. So that is stressing me out. I honestly haven't had a good nights sleep in probably a week.
In regards to date night...
After last night, I decided we both needed some space and found a nice way of achieving that. While I was out she texted me how about we take the kids to this restauarant we all want to try. I replied "sure." To which she said that she was trying to recover from earlier and not be such a butt about things. So that is her solution...family time. In my mind, that is because that is safe. I might be wrong, but that's what I think.
So not really going to be a date night.
Now things could get intersting later. In my prep for date night and thinking this one could be important, I even had already ordered flowers to be delivered to the house. 180 for me. I probably haven't ordered flowers unless in conjunction with a birthday/anniversary in like 15 years...
Not my intent, but there could be some serious guilt that comes about when we get home and she sees them and I put a loving note with them. TBH, at this point I wish I hadn't done that, but it was already ordered and paid for...
Lastly...not sure what to do today. I have not contacted her...not the norm. She has not contacted me...but I know she is busy. Normally by now, I would have at least sent a note seeing how her day was going or something. Not sure if I need to detach a little or go distant a little or??? It seems like the pursuing/effort approach hasn't worked the last few days...so I have debated that one...thoughts on this appreciated also.
Okay, a couple things stood out to me here. BTW I think Sandi's advice to Mike on her thread was great - just about being upbeat, no pressure, no big R talks. I wonder if that's the direction to go? What do you think. Which brings me to this...
"...just the resentment fading away and her maybe forgetting why she decided on us verses them all together brought it all back."
If that is the case, then show her how great you are so she remembers. A family date night is ok if that's all that can be arranged... don't worry about what it may or may note be to her. You can still be yourself GW, focus on being the gentleman you are, your integrity, your good nature, all your strengths, try to get back in touch with your confidence... she fell in love with you, and you're still there. Just stay centered... show her the great man you are.
I know you're worried about the flowers, but just take whatever her reaction to them is, in stride. Don't forget, you don't know for sure what her reaction will be. Sometimes when we get stressed worrying about about how someone will react, it creates the very thing we fear. It's a light, loving simple gesture...that's all it has to be.
Oh there was something else that caught me but I can't see it on this screen. Let me post this so I can look again in case I missed something.
And I am getting tired of being the only one fighting for the connection time that is SO IMPORTANT TO HER. I feel like I am the only one who is trying to schedule/find that quality time.
Oh yes, this is what I'd wanted to comment on. Yes, I was in this place for many months after I realized how much trouble our M was in. Granted our circumstances were different than yours; although I was the one contemplating leaving and feeling attracted to another guy, I was also the one doing the majority of the 'work' to reconnect the M.
(Still can't figure that one out) So, yes, I felt this for months so I know how wearing it can be. Especially when you've had so little sleep! That's when your mind really gets swirling, hey?
Anyways all I can say is to hang on and tough through this. Of course you have to stick with your integrity and not be chasing or let her use you, etc, but just pay attention to times when you feel resentment creeping in and ease up on yourself a bit. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.
Thanks for the words/thoughts/advice. I truly appreciate it.
GW, Sorry you're having such a difficult time at the moment. I couldn't tell from your summary whether you/your wife have a counsellor? I found ours to be invaluable in giving my H strategies to get past the ADDICTION to the OW, as well as sorting out why he had the void in him that required a fantasy relationship to fill, in addition to giving us exercises which strengthened our bond. I don't believe we'd have been able to heal our marriage without this expert assistance.
Our C specialized in marriage & family therapy as well as addiction recovery, which I found to be a very useful combination.
If I could suggest one thing, try not to put all your energy into worrying about her. She may contact OM again; she may decide to run; she may be depressed for some time longer: all this is unknowable. So focus on what you do know: even in a worst case scenario, you will be fine without her. And then do something to take care of yourself during this stressful time. Besides, the more self-reliant she sees you being, the more attractive you will be.
Hey gw
Not much to offer along the lines of advice but I just wanted to let you know I'm here. Hang in there buddy.
gr8
Thanks everyone...
Gr8...even a hang in there is probably sound advice right now
Cyrena - to answer your question, no. Why? TBH, for every M saving story like yours, I've heard/read another "made it far worse" story so we agreed on Retrouville instead. We haven't been yet because of the move and the schedule...but there is one in mid Jan in our area. Mistake? Don't know, what do you think?
Of course you are right on focusing more on me, detachment right, DB101. Lost Rabbit told me on the alt to drop the rope again...
Frustrating probably because this is the first time I've really had to think about all that in a while.
But I did go out for a run today at lunch (and without W which isn't the norm) and it made me feel a little better but not as much as I had hoped. But I did get it through my brain that if she chooses, which she might, to go back to a snake in the grass who (in my W's words) one woman will never be enough for...then she deserves the misery that comes with it. She will be stepping down if she does that, big time, to a man who has been unfaithful to his W many times and even had a fling going on the side while M and in an EA with my W. IF that happens, I don't want to be married to someone who makes those decisions and I will then step up in the world to someone else. But it would be a shame to make it this far for that to happen...
Addiction...boy is it ever. The more I read, hear, see...wow. And I don't know who has it worse in getting rid of the addiction...it might be harder on the almost LBS than the almost WAS while kicking the addiction. And my W has an addictive personality, so yes that concerns me.
Thanks again to all for the notes today. This forum isn't as lively and doesn't need to be normally...but today is the first time in a long, long time where I felt I really needed the boards...and I had DB friends come thru for me again!
Hiya hun came on here to see what the other guys suggested, good to get an overall opinion.
You know Ive been through this and still do on some days, but honestly whilst I get what the other guys are saying about "be the best man" you have been doing that all along and what ever made W start thinking about OM there is nothing you can do about that, and if you start going round and round in circles worrying about this you are only going to "look your worst"
Lack of sleep is one of your worst enemies, it always is, you get tired then you get grumpy and then things get blown outta proportion and you get resentful, I know this because I do the same, get yourself to bed early or on time tonight and take a sleeping pill.
Tomorrow reclaim your life back again, drop the rope let W stew that if she doesnt get herself together you wont be there when she gets back from working away. State your boundaries, especially the one about not contacting OM, firmly remind her that contacting him even in the realms of laying things to rest is still contacting him and you wont accept it and it will be the end of things no second chances.
However you look at things, the date night may have come over as a bit desperate even pursuey, you do need to organise things well ahead, so that W ponders on a nice evening out, and the possibility of romance, pleasant conversation and more romance. Believe me none of those things come into your mind when your panicking about where to stick the kids, infact quite the opposite it only points out that you the incompetant parent must be mad to expect love, romance and potential love making etc when you are causing them to panic about their beloved little wonder cherubs!
Go back to detaching you know if she is gonna contact OM you cant do anything about it, dont let your paranoia get the better of you, you know thinking is bad for you lol!
PUT YOURSELF FIRST!
Remember things she hates about you, in a good way, so exit wimpo man, indecisive man and become Im busy getting a life you have to make your own decision W but believe me I have made mine and you are on dodgy ground..
You can do this, stop getting your trunks in a twist and have a bit more faith in yourself (()
Cyrena - to answer your question, no. Why? TBH, for every M saving story like yours, I've heard/read another "made it far worse" story so we agreed on Retrouville instead. We haven't been yet because of the move and the schedule...but there is one in mid Jan in our area. Mistake? Don't know, what do you think?
I've also heard the scary stories about counsellors, but of the 4 I've seen in my life, 2 were excellent, 1 was good, and only the one who was assigned (rather than chosen by me) was useless. Careful selection, including at least a phone interview before committing, is crucial.
That said, I believe Retrouvaille can be deeply helpful. My only concern is that you won't be doing it until January--but it's NOW that your wife is in crisis. A counseller familiar with the addiction process would probably be able to help her understand how to cope with withdrawal, help you cope with the possibility of "one last cigarette," help her understand how to start thinking with her adult mind rather than her emotions, etc. Our C also gave my H his cell number to call when he wanted to call his EA again.
Congratulations on the run. What can you do for yourself this evening?
She will be stepping down if she does that, big time, to a man who has been unfaithful to his W many times and even had a fling going on the side while M and in an EA with my W.
The pitiful thing is that she knows this about him and yet she still wants that connection.
I would suggest that maybe you back away from any talks about OM or the MR for now. Wait on her and see if she talks without any encouragment to do so. She keeps saying she has to deal with it, so maybe it's time for her to do that. You have a few days before she leaves on her trip, so maybe detach some right now and then see if she tries to keep contact going with you while she's away.
The reason I suggest pulling back is b/c of how she acted when you really were at that point of dropping the rope...and she knew you were. It scared her when she saw what she could lose. Looks like she may need a little reminder.
Things a little better today. I started down the detaching road last night and results weren't good...so I stopped. Last night remained awkward. This morning though a good conversation. Where we at, why, how to move forward. Right now it is those feelings that are the stumbling block and she feels bad that "she lost her mind" and told me all those things last weekend.
Learned exactly why feelings for him have resurfaced: one was talking about him and second the anger has faded.
I pushed for counselling for her to deal with this because she says she has no one to talk to about it...she was receptive.
I reiterated the boundary of no contact and that one almost shocked her. Amazing. Her response is well what if talking to him is my way of getting it out of my system and moving on...so we had that talk.
I validated that I have read about this kind of stuff and what she is feeling is normal and that I expected it and was here for her. We promised each other to focus just on today, have a good day together and go from there.
So the elephant is still in the room. These feelings and wondering what it would be like with OM. And I couldn't resist, I found a way to throw in there the fact that she would be going to someone she knows won't be faithful to her and that one woman isn't enough for. She admitted she did always worry about that...
I appreciate all the perspectives and thoughts. Far from out of the woods of trouble on this one. I know this is a critical, critical stretch...that if she decides to reach out to the addiction, it is probably over. And I told her that too (without using the word addiction)
Woot! GW Way to go, asserting your boundaries and still validating and communicating. Give yourself a pat on the back. I know you guys have a lot of work ahead yet but looks like you're handling it really well. I do hope she pursues the counseling.
PS... our conversation about Bridges of Madison Country reminded me of something. As much as it had fueled my fantasy about being attracted to that guy, something I noticed after watching it 3 or 4 times also was something that helped me to squelch it... did you ever notice how eventually, Meryl Streep ALWAYS ended up bawling and upset EVERY single time she and Clint were together? It ticked me off at her. I though, 'oh for gods sakes woman, you're more than your relationship with this guy... you're not going to keel over dead without him. If it's that painful to be without him, then you've got bigger problems than losing him that you're not dealing with. So get busy, look inside and fix them!'
(IDK maybe I think to much! Hope you don't mind that I shared this... it was just one of those things that made me look at my attraction to that guy a little different I guess.)
Of course I don't mind that you shared that...however, dont think I'll be suggesting my W watch that movie a few times in hopes she reaches the same point.
We had a very good day. W gave effort into things and seemed happy like I hadn't seen in a few weeks. I was happy/relaxed too. At this point, I think its important she go into this trip with us both feeling happy and secure with where things are out, her love tanks filled...cause I know she will be thinking about things a lot...I need to remain the better option.
And if not, she will have chosen poorly and I will be fine.
She did say something interesting that I forgot to write here - she said she really wanted to deal with this and be done. She doesn't want to be thinking about him off and on or be thinking of him still 20 years from now.
Glad to hear your day went well yesterday. It's like they keep saying... do what works, right? That was an interesting comment she made about wanting to deal with her feelings. Sounds like she's very motivated. I think that's very important... hey, I forgot to ask. Are you guys in MC?
We are not in MC. We are planning on Retrouville. With our busy lifestyle that seemed to be the best option. But now I am having second thoughts. I mentioned it, tested the waters, with her yesterday. Her reply was "I told you I would" in reference to going to MC. It was one of the boundaries I had for me be willing to give us another shot when she finally snapped our of la la land and cut it off with OM
But now I am having second thoughts.
Why are you having second thoughts?
Because of some advice on here. I am not second guessing Retrouville...as long as we make it till Jan to attend!
Because of some advice on here. I am not second guessing Retrouville...as long as we make it till Jan to attend!
Wow really. Have you and she sat down to discuss which option is better? I'm all for listening to the advice here, but it's really got to be a decision between you and her.. what works for you both. What advice did you hear that made you reconsider? To me it sounds like you're worried about waiting until Jan?
Yes a little worried about waiting till Jan...however, realistically, with the holiday season and all...still probably the most realistic solution.
We need to talk some more about it, that is for sure. Really, waiting till Jan is one thing, but if I am honest with myself, it is worried about next week, so nothing that can be done before then.
...if I am honest with myself, it is worried about next week, so nothing that can be done before then.
Yah, I can appreciate that. Well, try not to let your fears run away with you... I'm famous for doing that and it rarely turns out well! Focus on the good stuff if you can. Deep down I worry if my H would have been able to do what you are, had my sitch progressed a different way. So I really admire what you're doing GW. Thinking good thoughts for both you and your W. Well, doggie-duty calls... take care today!
It is so insane for your W to suggest that talking to OM would help her get him out of her syestem! Just looney tunes! How does one get into an EA anyway?
Her up & down emotions and one day thinking she's ready to get serious about the MR and then the next she's wanting to talk with OM......is normal, IMHO. I think it's all a part of finding her way back. However, she has got to stay on the right path and not fall back into contacting him. It's like she's finding all the excuses to talk to him and it's crazy.
I think Retrouville would be good (based on what I've heard), if she will just keep it together long enough to get there.
If you decide to go to MC instead, please have an agreement with your W that once you get in to see the C and discover that he/she is not pro-marriage.....you'll find another C. And, if your W suggest IC don't agree to it. I went to IC b/c my H would not agree to go to MC and the IC told me there was absolutely nothing wrong with what I did (talking about my EA). So, I sat there and told her about the different men I had contacted over the Internet and she just said what I wanted to hear.
I agree that your W needs to leave for her trip on a good note. I think you would be better off by not talking about the OM or the MR right now.
It is so insane for your W to suggest that talking to OM would help her get him out of her syestem!
Don't they usually try this? "I need closure" blah, blah, blah?
Thanks Sandi! I have no plans of bringing up any M/R talk again...and thing going good enough today that I am optimistic there will be no reason too.
Anything I can do to make sure she stays on the right path, other than pray and the thigns I've done already?
Anything I can do to make sure she stays on the right path, other than pray and the thigns I've done already?
I can't think of anything you've not done, GW.
Is it this weekend that she leaves on her trip? In the past, which of you would be the first to call? It will be an anxious time for you, but IMHO, you need to be careful that you aren't checking in with her too much or she'll think you are holding the reigns too tight. It's delicate. This will be a time of testing for her, but it's going to come at some point in time.
You have my prayers on this end, for sure.
Hope today has been a good day gutwrenching.
This weekend, try to do something that is for you, that reinforces your confidence in yourself, something that has nothing to do with children and marriage. GAL is so important, I think even more so for men than for women in some ways. And guys are often most attractive when they come back from being out in the world doing their stuff. It's good for you and your M.
I like the idea of Retro compared with MC. I found that it was really hard to generate momentum in MC. We'd leave after a tiny nudge forward, but then there'd be a week of the regular problems and challenges. I think that spending some concentrated time dealing with the stuff and developing new skills and generating some momentum would have been a better start. Then of course hopefully there would be the motivation to follow through in the post sessions.
(((hugs)))
Why is is a question of Retro or MC? Why not do both? You would not get very many MC sessions in between now and January, but it might give you the feeling that you are working together to at least begin moving the elephant out of the room. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Or, I might suggest that you do what my H and I did while we waited for Retrouvaille. (No, not the fighting part....LOL!) We got the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring and took turns reading the chapters and discussing it. We didn't go into any great depth, but we would point out things that we each saw in the chapter that we found interesting. It gave us a framework to talk about the affair without specifically talking about the affair. And there were some "know your partner" kind of tests in the book that we could take and then discuss the results.
This didn't solve our problems, but it helped us to feel like we were moving forward while we waited for the time to pass to get to the Retrouvaille session.
Why is is a question of Retro or MC? Why not do both? You would not get very many MC sessions in between now and January, but it might give you the feeling that you are working together to at least begin moving the elephant out of the room. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The problem is that ineffective or too-slow not-enough MC can reinforce feelings of hopelessness, etc. I like your idea of reading the book together Lotus. Or even listening together in audio form if that's available -- then you can pause and discuss if desired.
Lotus and Flowmom...
First of all thanks for stopping by this thread so much...good to hear from you two again.
Just dropped off W at airport. I did not have an opportunity for gal this weekend unfortunately. Now its me and the kids and will make sure we have a good time. Older D's birthday is this week, so we will go out and have a good time that evening and the next day is younger Ds "student of the month" day at school, so will play that up too. Need to make sure they don't start sensing any of this again.
Anxiety not too high. Nervousness is probably a better word...but that is better than anxiety. I did avoid any M or R talks this weekend, and we did a handful of family things. I'm sure i was giving off vibes of the nervousness, W kept asking me if there was anything wrong and I would smile and say no. I can sense the conflict in her too...but I didn't bring it up. She is saying and acting like everything is going to be ok, but I also know she is really struggling right now. I offered to load a couple of apps on her phone, which I did, and what do you know, the last search from her was for apps on marriage...so I know she is a bit conflicted, but she had basically told me the same thing. Her actions and words do not show someone about to be a WAS again, but my mind reading knows she is debating whether or not to contact him, if she hasn't already.
At this point, I have to not worry about it...well I have to try.
For me, I plan on doing some reading this week. I hope to get some good sleep. And just pray for some clarity on where to go and for a positive outcome and pray that during this time alone that my W actually is able to resolve things in her heart and mind and come to the right conclusion...in her brain, she knows what she should do, I know that. But she has to decide she can remain happy over the long haul...she has to recommit to herself to really work on things despite the fact it is going to be hard. And I did leave a few things hidden in her luggage to help fill the love tanks while we are gone and remind her of our love. I did get a couple of ILYs as she left, so trying to focus on the positive. And a passionate kiss earlier in the day that would not be indicative of one about to be a WAS.
I will start looking into some counseling options this week too. I still believe Retro is the best thing for us...I think its what we need to take the next step.
The book - well I like that idea, but I will probably wait and see...see how things are and how she is acting when she returns. She how committed she is. The shame of all this was I had come a long way towards recovering, had come a long ways towards trusting...and now not near as much.
I am going to reread all the thoughts on C and Retro that everyone has posted and really think about it.
Thanks a ton for the support and thoughts. I value your thoughts and opinions. Wish I wasn't in a spot to need it again, but it is what it is
And I will probably be posting more this week
Made it through day 1. Journaling more than anything.
Had ups and downs. Was down most morning, then took W to airport. Couple hours later all the nervousness and some anxiety returned. Good friends helped out on the alt.
My the evening, I stopped focusing on the negative and focused on positive signs. That really helped the PMA.
W and I exchanged multiple texts, a short phone call with the kids...and then an hour of one-on-one of talking with video via chat. That is important to me...reading body language...and nothing negative there. A few ILYs sprinkled in didn't hurt either.
That sounds good GW. It's hard to keep the doubts from closing in, especially when you are alone. But just as in other aspects of life, if you believe you can do something, you can. And doubts don't help you at all.
Hi GW, finally found your REAL thread:)
Hang in there. Thinking about you and sending you positive thoughts.
You made it through day 1. Congrats.
Day 1 -- good for you.
GW, please take some time to recharge your batteries and do something for GW. It's understandable that you're focusing on W and signs from her, but in order to feel strong within yourself (and incidentally attractive to her) you need to draw energy from outside your marriage and family. She is drawing energy from travelling and the stimulation of whatever she is doing. When you reunite, you want her to be intrigued about what you did, and you don't want to be stuck in "waiting for her to come home" mode.
Oh outstanding advice/reminder flowmom...thank you
So far so good. Had a great run today at lunch, really felt great, re-energized me. No anxiety. Little bit of nervousness not much. Got a nice note from W this morning.
When is she scheduled to return?
Hey gut, I'm still folowig along. Keep the good spirits up!
gr8
Today tougher...I'm fighting it...but being honest...hitting me today even though last night was positive...
(((GW))) I think that the hardest thing about a marriage crisis is the illusion that someone else is in control of our happiness and well-being, and that their actions and inactions rule our world. Of course, that's not real. It's hard to believe that once we were happy, sad, and everything in between before we even met our spouses. This is a good time for you to cultivate detachment, even during the process of piecing.
You may recognize the passage below (not my words):
A woman sometimes seems to want to be the most important thing in her man's life. However, if she is the most important thing, then she feels her man has made her the number one priority and is not fully dedicated or directed to divine growth and service. She will feel her man's dependence on her for his happiness, and this will make her feel smothered by his neediness and clinging. A woman really wants her man to be totally dedicated to his highest purpose--and also to love her fully. Although she would never admit it, she wants to feel that her man would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for the sake of his highest purpose.
Be kind to yourself. This is very hard.
Part of loving someone is trusting them. Even if you think you can't trust them. It is a loving decision to decide to trust with your love. Keep doing it. The benefits outweigh the risks! Don't allow doubt to creep in. Mind control. Negative thoughts will hurt you. Don't allow them to take up space in your mind.
Lotus -
I failed miserably at your great words today. Need to admit that and move forward. I had come a long ways towards trust, but have lost quite a bit over the last few weeks and simply don't trust at the moment. But you are right, how can I love if I can't trust. Her distance and unresponsiveness today triggered lots of bad memories and emotions. I used almost those same words tonight on our very short conversation. I need her to understand my pain/issues as well and I'm not sure she does right now because she is so consumed with her own stuff. But I tried.
Negative thoughts almost crippled me today. I will do better tomorrow. I have to do better. I have to stop thinking worst case scenario.
Flow - great quote - yes I read that yesterday...thanks again for your advice on the alt the last couple of days...I'm almost done with the book. It helped me today, but not enough. I didn't internalize it enough...but that is a goal for tomorrow. And be kind to myself is something I struggled with today as well. I felt like I should be better than this, handling it better than I am...beat myself up too much
Thanks to all of you that continue to check in on me, as well as Rocked and Rabbit on the alt.
GW,
It will be Thursday before you know it. Keep your focus on external things. Stay busy. Do not let negative thoughts creep in. They will sabotage all that you have worked for. Your wife is fine. She is, I assume, at a work meeting. Give her the benefit of the doubt -- she is working. Your job is to keep the home fires burning so that when she comes home you and she will have a nice place to be together again. You can do this.
Thanks. Yes she is at a work conference. This is the first time we've been apart since piecing. All of the talk of feelings for OM and feeling the need to deal with it by talking to him and moving on killed most of the trust I had built up.
But you are right. I HAVE TO DO BETTER TOMORROW. I have to let go of the fear that I know had to be obvious today. The only thing I feel good about what I did today was communicate to her that her actions triggered bad memories in me...she needs to understand that as we try to move forward.
Short term goal: hold it together till Thursday
Mid term goal: have a good holiday season this year unlike last year
Longer term goal: keep things moving to make it to Retrouville in January
Back to old ways today. Back to being a bit distant. If she doesn't want to talk, fine. I told her what that triggers in me, she said she was sorry she didn't mean for that too happen, so now time to see if she is going to put forth some effort or not...
Hi GW,
I keep praying for you. Keep up the good fight. Tomorrow is almost here. Remember it takes one to tango. Wish I had more to offer...
B
I am struggling with anxiety today too GW, so I sympathize with how you're feeling. I have to keep reminding myself to breathe and to focus on taking action on the things that I can control and letting go of the things that I can't control. If you can find some sun, let it shine on your face for five minutes...I find that really helps me. Try to let go of your anxiety. (((Hugs)))
GW,
Keep holding on to yourself. And I'd suggest, now you've let her know about those triggers, try to stop yourself from repeating that (repetition= nagging). I found, in Piecing, that my H was so fragile still that I had to wait until he was a lot stronger (and rational rather than emotional) before I could look to him for much understanding of my pain. I know it feels unfair, but, as the LBS, you are the stronger one at this point.
Keep doing as much for yourself that takes your mind off your W as you can at this point.
Cyrena
Great point. You know I'd heard that before but as you probably can relate, things slip your mind especially when in the middle of things.
And to let you know you are right. I went into today with a much better, stronger, confident attitude about life and the sitch. I stopped the anxiety and got control of the emotions and waited to see if she would give me any positive signs. I stopepd thinking as much about her. I did things that I wanted to do this evening and put the cell phone in a different room and didn't check the computer.
It seems to have helped. She initiated some communication today. When she called she had very little time to talk, I simply stated she sounded busy and sounded like a long night ahead of her. She said yes it would be a late one at the banquet. I said ok...no nagging, no telling her what I wanted or to call. We left it at that. I said I'll see you tomorrow and she said she's text or email me tomorrow.
Well surprise, she called when she got back from the banquet even though it was close to when I would be going to sleep. And I had to call her back because my cell phone was no where near me and I missed the call. We talked very briefly again. And she changed her return flight home to get home about 6 hours earlier.
So you are right.
But we still have issues that I think we need to talk about...curious what some of you who have been here before think. Don't we need to talk about that part of rebuilding trust is not repeating patterns of the past? Those triggers?
I know for a fact she has no idea how much pain she put me through, she thinks she has an idea, but I don't think so. But shouldn't we talk a little about not creating more pain?
My radar is still up about possible re-contact with OM...and that boundary is going to have to be re-discussed and re-iterated probably a few more times.
Thoughts?
Flow - I finished the book. Thanks
yes and no. Discuss, OK....Make your point. Nag, no.
It will take a long time to build the trust. You can tell her today and tomorrow and the next day, and you will sound like a broken record. But it won't build trust. For two reasons. First, you have to build the trust in your heart, not her. Tough, huh? She can act trustworthy, that's true. But trustworthiness takes a long time to prove. If you wait for the trustworthiness to inspire the trust in your heart, it will be June before you get started. So you can't wait. You have to say, "Wife, you know what I need. I am going to trust you to do it." And then you have to leave it alone and let the trust and the trustworthiness build simultaneously.
And secondly, you are both the walking wounded. Try not to think of it as she made a mistake and inflicted wounds on you. Think of it as you were mountain climbing, roped together, and she fell and took you down with her. It takes the blame out of it. And you need to take the blame out. Because this is a growth experience for both of you. And if you recover from it, you become stronger as individuals and as a couple. But you have to help her heal too.
Some spouses get discouraged the the task of reconciling is too big, the damage too great. They convince themselves that it's easier to sever the relationship and start fresh elsewhere. This comes from negative self-talk. But just as you have problems with negative self-talk, so does she. And you don't want to feed it.
What you do want is to build some good times together. Drama and painful emotion-free good times. It doesn't need to be a second honeymoon. Lunch out sometimes, going to church as a family, holidays together, family outings, all of these things will build you up more than discussions of hurt feelings and recriminations.
Retrouvaille will be the time to have those discussions. They will lead you through them. They will take you into that dark woods and they will lead you out. If at all possible, save the discussions for January. Build the time together with no blame now.
Wow Lotus, those were great words.
First, you have to build the trust in your heart, not her. Tough, huh?
Yes and I have not at this point...not at all really.
And secondly, you are both the walking wounded. Try not to think of it as she made a mistake and inflicted wounds on you. Think of it as you were mountain climbing, roped together, and she fell and took you down with her. It takes the blame out of it.
This one I get and I realize...I really do. I know I made mistakes along the way. But I wonder if sometimes I still come across as blaming...I don't think I do but thanks for pointing that out to make sure I keep focus on that.
What you do want is to build some good times together. Drama and painful emotion-free good times. It doesn't need to be a second honeymoon.
This we are having some tough times with. We had the honeymoon period already. But it appears to me that I am the only one that makes any effort towards getting this done. I realize I am going to have to lead and carry the burden, but it gets tough sometimes.
And lastly the negative thoughts is my vice right now. The last couple of weeks plus this trip brought that out in me too, where my mind takes off with negative thoughts and it always revolves around her and OM starting it up again.
That is the big elephant in the room right now. She knows that is what I am concerned with. I know that she has at least considered it.
So, do I ask...do I ask her if she and OM were in contact on this trip?
Play it through in your mind. If she says "No", and looks straight into your eyes, will you believe her? If you won't believe her, then don't ask. It won't help.
ok - have to think about that one...
Frankly I think if she wants to rebuild trust, then you need to set a boundary right now. She did the disappearing act again while away - a big trigger for you. She's either struggling with OM again or she's being insensitive to you. Either way, you need to set a boundary about how commitment and trust building means that you need contact not disappearing acts. I would communicate this to her and do the boundary thing: "When you___________, I feel __________, and if it happens again I will _____________." THen the hard part...you have to follow through.
YOu can do this. You have to decide what boundary protects you -
"But we still have issues that I think we need to talk about...curious what some of you who have been here before think. Don't we need to talk about that part of rebuilding trust is not repeating patterns of the past? Those triggers?
I know for a fact she has no idea how much pain she put me through, she thinks she has an idea, but I don't think so. But shouldn't we talk a little about not creating more pain?"
YES YES YES - THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!
She's either struggling with OM again or she's being insensitive to you.
I'm not convinced that the situation can actually be seen as so black or white. When someone has been completely addicted to something/someone for some time, has become habituated to taking a "hit" of fantasizing about/calling/texting, etc, them whenever they feel depression washing over themselves, is it realistic to expect them not to struggle over the next several months as they try to create new pathways in their minds? It takes a minimum of 2 years to repair a damaged marriage, and people who have given up their OP describe a gradual fading of the importance of that person only as the marriage gathers strength to replace him/her.
In my experience, the spouse who has ended the affair is not properly capable of being "sensitive" to the other spouse's pain for some time--they are feeling too damaged by (as in Lotus' example) falling off the mountain to be able to see beyond their own wounds, broken bones, flashbacks, etc.
In addition, as my H said at one point, "I don't know if you can trust me. First I have to learn to trust myself again."
This doesn't mean there won't be a time for all these talks, as they do need to happen; however, I feel that Lotus's advice is the best way to proceed for the moment.
The addiction stuff, I certainly believe that is true, espcially in my W. There is no doubt she is fighting an addiction. She went cold turkey by her own choosing and supressed the addiction for a while, and then urge hit her again. This week she had an opportunity to feed that addiction. I hope she didn't.
In my experience, the spouse who has ended the affair is not properly capable of being "sensitive" to the other spouse's pain for some time--they are feeling too damaged by (as in Lotus' example) falling off the mountain to be able to see beyond their own wounds, broken bones, flashbacks, etc.
This too really impacts me. I read that passage a few times. This helps piece thigs together. Watching my W cry in pain because of feelings for OM and saying what we have is good, it should be enough, what is wrong with me...wow...that is it...she is feeling too damaged from the fall and although she says over and over she doesn't want to hurt me anymore, she probably can't truly see beyond her own wounds and flashbacks (another great word).
Please keep this coming. It is so helpful, everyone.
Hi GW, it sounds like you're getting some great advice again today. Just sending hugs and my support to you. Stay well.
GW, hugs to you. It's good that you can be real with us, and yourself about how you are truly coping with this. Again, be kind to yourself. You are doing your best, and that is enough.
Not at all looking good. More details when I can. She came back home, wanted to talk, and sure enough, her and OM had been talking the whole trip and we both told her the same thing. Enough of this already.
She is truly addicted.
She is also getting more and more conflicted by the moment.
It started with her seeming pretty set in she wanted to be with him and I said then move out within 2 weeks
But the end of the conversation is can we give this a night to consider and talk tomorrow
After an evening with kids, she says to me it was nice in this house being happy...(we moved into this house when we started piecing...vice the misery of our last place/situation)
This sucks
Oh gutwrenching, I guess your gut was telling you what was going on
.
Addiction is so ugly...I am sorry that it is affecting your W, you and your family this way.
I hope that you can separate what is about your marriage, and what is just about her in this situation. A wise teacher talks about "my business, your business, and God's business". Now, more than ever, you need to get really clear on what is what in your life, because your business is going to be more than enough of a challenge right now, and tackling her business and God's business will just undermine you. Be strong and know that we are with you in spirit.
(((hugs)))
Gdub, I am so sorry to hear about the evening.
Sleeping on it sounds like a really good idea. When times are tough and we (spouses) are apart from each other, I swear it makes the brain do gymnastics. I, for one, would find intimacy really challenging after we had been apart. I am not talking about sex, just closeness/connection. If I put myself in her position, I suspect I would be feeling scared. What is your W's LL?
Depending on how things go in the next couple of days, is there any way you two can move up the date on Retrouvaille?
and sure enough, her and OM had been talking the whole trip and we both told her the same thing
Sounds as if OM is getting tired of the game. He's lost his M/family b/c of the A. I don't know who made the contact first, but if she reached out to him, he probably is ready for an end to it....one way or the other. She chose you & the girls over him, the last time....and I would think he is not thrilled about that. Their "reunion" may not have been that rosey.
I think her backslide puts her back to square one and all that withdrawal pain will have to be experienced again.
How did you find out they had been in contact? Did you ask or did she volunteer the information?
She told me we needed to talk. That's how I found out...though I was sensing it already. Not sure who initiated...he had sent those couple of emails, and I suspect she then reached out.
OM's W doesn't even know of the affair...but he has told her he wants a D.
OM is tired of game. W asked me if OM had emailed me...I gave an odd look...he was threatening to email me to tell me that we would never ever hear from him or about him again because he was tired of all this.
Not sure about withdrawl pain...right now she seems to be leaning towards leaving to pursue this long-distances EA with OM.
Pisses me off, scares me some, whole range of emotions. Financially it would be crushing...we are committed and in-deep right now financially...it is just amazing.
She is slightly on the fence.
i don't really know exactly what to do now
She says she loves me and she told me that she "loves all of the changes I have made" but she keeps on thinking about OM. And that isn't fair to her or me.
I might not have made this point clear...this isn't about piecing anymore. She wants OM again, she thinks. She isn't sure. I said ok, I will start splitting up assets and opening new checking accounts tonight. She said no, lets give it a day, lets talk again tomorrow night. I said I could give her a little time but not a ton. If she wanted OM, she could find an apartment somewhere to do it in. I also told her no coverups this time. Friends, family, co-workers...they will know...I won't pretend to be married and I'm not going to lie about what happened.
She is a wreck. I don't understand why she can't see what this does to her. She said she hasn't slept well all week, her balance is off, she looks just worn down completely. When she gets into thr throws with him, she becomes physically ill.
There is a big part of me that wants to email OM. Ask him if this is really worth risking his career over and does he have any idea how ill and miserable this actually makes my W...
I might not have made this point clear...this isn't about piecing anymore.
I am so sorry that you are finding yourself back there.
She wants OM again, she thinks. She isn't sure. I said ok, I will start splitting up assets and opening new checking accounts tonight. She said no, lets give it a day, lets talk again tomorrow night. I said I could give her a little time but not a ton. If she wanted OM, she could find an apartment somewhere to do it in. I also told her no coverups this time. Friends, family, co-workers...they will know...I won't pretend to be married and I'm not going to lie about what happened.
Good for you GW. That is showing DIRECTION...you need to manifest that for yourself so that you can be right within yourself as a man.
She is a wreck. I don't understand why she can't see what this does to her. She said she hasn't slept well all week, her balance is off, she looks just worn down completely. When she gets into thr throws with him, she becomes physically ill.
She is in a personal crisis, and the OM is simply a symptom of that, and a way of coping with her inner angst. If she lets go of the OM, she will still have to deal with all of that because it's about what's going on inside her and her relationship with herself.
There is a big part of me that wants to email OM. Ask him if this is really worth risking his career over and does he have any idea how ill and miserable this actually makes my W...
Please take your focus off the OM. This really isn't about him. If OM really did withdraw, it could make him even more attractive to your W...this really isn't something that you can control and engaging with him puts you in a supplicating role, not in the Man with a Direction role that you need to take right now.
(((hugs)))
She will see a different LBH this go-around from the last time. I think she'll see very quickly that you will have a totally different game plan.
There is a big part of me that wants to email OM. Ask him if this is really worth risking his career over and does he have any idea how ill and miserable this actually makes my W...
I think most men have that feeling, but you know it would not change anything for the good of your M. If OM has a pea size brain, he's surely thought about the fall-out.
I am so sorry b/c I had hoped that she would have enough military to be more disciplined than to go back into the pit she came out of.
Now I have to find the inner strength to carry out with that gameplan. It came out of my mouth naturally, but then as the evening went on and I wore down, it becomes harder to execute.
I am resisting the temptation to contact OM...but I know it would feel good...but i know it probably would do no good.
He's not worth your time.
(((Gdub)))
Keep thinking about you. I hope things are going well and you have found the strength you needed.
B
not yet..but working on it
thanks for the prayers
I am still gathering strength...W still seems on the fence
Sure. Glad to hear from you. I know the boards are slow on the weekend and I have little to offer in the way of advice, but I will be around if you need to vent.
Did you run today?
Gutwrenching-
It is an addiction. I know exactly how you feel. I watched my husband cry that he had messed up his whole life. I kept it all a secret for him b/c he was so worried about his job. Then a couple of smoke signals sent out by ow and he is back at it. I don't have any other advice than I know how you feel. I will say this though, the fact that she came to you and told you about it is promising. Some of the sites that I have been on have said that it is very likely that they will get in touch with their affair partner, but she told you about it instead of resorting back to the lies. I really think that the lies make it the worst. So i think that you are doing the right thing giving her a few days, continuing to db and trying to leave the emotion out of it, thank her for being honest with you. Whatever you can do to keep her talking and being open with you will be helpful. Maybe do this for two or three weeks before going to plan b. I don't know if this is a good idea, but one book that I read " My Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me" her circumstance was somewhat similar. Her husband ended up leaving for two weeks, but when he decided to move home he contacted the affair partner, as friends, for a couple of weeks. She talks about how she just tried to listen to what he told her. Then a few weeks in she gave him a letter that outlined exactly how she felt, and what she wanted in the marriage. I believe that she got the basic format for the letter from James Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough".
I know I am rambling, and I don't really know first hand b/c my husband just keeps lying to me about his contact. But I would think that the fact that she is talking to you is a good sign. This woman says in her book that it is darkest before the dawn.
THANK YOU LOST!
Someone else who gets it! Yes we are still talking
We talked for probably 3 hours last night. Got nowhere. Reiterated boundary, if you contact him, you are not welcome in this house
eet
BOttom line. She is ADDICTED. She knows that rationally she would be nuts to go to him. He doesn't meet her security need, I don't meet her need for that instant connection (can you say addiction) and everything else would be wash she says.
She needs help. I don't know how to get her help
I got to be honest...I don't know if I could do this for another two or three weeks. I have to decide that. But we were so happy for our first 3 months of piecing which she freely admits and agrees too...that I don't know if I can limbo land again which is where she is now.
I cant be positive there are no lies. She did lie and sneak to start up contact, but since then seems to have been fairly open.
I still think she is 70% leaning towards leaving the M
Can you direct her to people on here to talk to? I look at some of Sandi's first posts when she first ended her affair, and it helped me to really understand how "lost" they are and how checked out from us they are. Also, I know with my husband a lot of his relationship was through text and email. He was texting her or emailing her almost every minute from 7am until 12am. I think as much as he is addicted to her, he is also addicted to that electronic form of contact. Maybe having a support group that she is emailing, talking to others that have been there will help her get her head on straight, but also fill her need for "chatting" with someone. I feel just as helpless as you do. I have thought about exposing it at work, that would really cause them to hit rock bottom, but I need the child support and he could lose his job. Maybe exposing would work for you if it is not going to hurt you financially.
Although I like the idea and it might really help her, there is no way i am telling her about this site. Too much I have posted here. IF she went looking, she would figure out who I was on here..wouldn't be that hard
My guess is that she is 100% wanting OM, and 100% wanting to be with you. Hence the angst.
Your job is to detach from her drama. It's not your job to get her help or fix this for her. Stating your boundaries is the right thing to do...keep doing that. Let her know that you will help her in whatever way that you can when she commits to the M, but right now she's on her own. Trying to help her right now is codependent, and could actually provide her with the emotional security that she needs to make the break from your M.
You might want to read some Al-Anon stuff. If your W is addicted, you need to think about how to deal with addicts. Mostly you have to be very grounded in yourself and not allow yourself to be emotionally enmeshed with your W.
(((GW)))
I am working on detaching. Have start to do so last couple of days. She is now miserable again, probably heading towards depression...yes angst. Detach from the drama is good advice and something I need to do better with. I look at Al-Anon, thanks.
I hope my advice doesn't sound flippant GW. I can only imagine how hard it is. I never had a chance to fight for my M, but in your position I would be consumed by anxiety. (((hugs)))
GW,
Here comes a barrage of info on PEA and the physical/emotional addiction of EA... I wish you luck! Remember, it is tough for her too... After much soul searching I'm discovering whAt made ME of ALL people brt my brain in this state.
A good IC specializing bin addiction was an answer to a prayer for me! No guilt trips, just sorting out the real from the fantasy and looking at it in a detached way... WHAT made me vulnerable? Ultimately, the answer is the same... Develop healthy friendships and bonds, renew interests and career I let slip,away, and get back that playful, flirtatious relation with H. Focusing on that keeps me from dwelling on FANTASY man (or punk, Lol, as youncalled him).
Here goes Article #1:
Life Issues In-Focus - Love addiction
Do you want to shift energetic patterns that hold Codependency and Love Addiction in place?
Love addiction is focused on love as the solution to inner pain, loneliness and emptiness. In love addiction, the relationship or the need for romance is all consuming. Nothing else in life has equal importance.
The Love addict has very intense emotions including anger, fear, hate and 'love' for the other person, and it is this extreme positive or negative intensity that differentiates love addiction from habits where we often also develop a craving for the object of desire.
An addiction usually affects and includes the body, emotions and the mind.
On the physical level, our brain indeed creates a chemical, PEA that creates the thrill and excitement that we experience when we fall in love. When this person drops out of our life the body produces withdrawal symptoms such as shakiness, cramps or loss of appetite.
We all may have experienced such symptoms at the loss of a loved one. In case of love addiction, there is also a desperate need to regain this person or relationship back, accompanied by an increasing sense of guilt or shame about one's 'weakness' to let go of this person.
On an emotional-mental level, being in love makes most people feel good. In case of love addiction, it creates a feeling of being 'on top of the world', feeling drunken by love, being euphoric beyond any sense of reality about the steps necessary to turn the attraction into a workable relationship.
When these feelings fade away, the love addict will do anything to regain this love even at the price to submerge their own personality into the loved one by fully identifying with their interests and needs.
In love addiction, the addict is often obsessed with finding the 'prince or 'princess' that will be THE ONE FOREVER and solve all the problems. Life without that love seems to be meaningless.
The desperate need for finding that person or regaining a lost love can destroy all other parts of life, create chaos, tension and anxieties and threat life itself when chronic grief turns into suicidal thoughts.
Because love addiction gets supported through the ideal of romantic love in movies and songs, it's actually quite difficult to crack the self-delusion that is part of love addiction. All addictions have an element of denial but in case of love addiction it is more severe. Love addicts often don't see the connection between their pain and suffering and the illusionary quality of what they seek as love.
The first step would be to recognise the love addiction as such and then to take the necessary steps to fulfil all those needs that have been delegated to THE ONE. This may require finding out what you can do to be good to yourself, to love yourself and to appreciate the good things in your life.
Another important step is to accept that you may be single for a long time.
Start to develop a wide variety of interests and activities, meet people and make new friends. This will make your company more pleasant, give you practice in developing social skills, and increase your chances of finding a compatible partner to cope with everyday life.
With a good network of friends and acquaintances and exploring new and interesting ways to share your life with them, the emptiness and painful longing will fade away.
As love addiction is so deeply rooted, you may need extra help in understanding the dynamics of love addiction and in shifting the energetic patterns that hold the addiction in place so that you can develop healthy relationship patterns and communication skills.
In my book: Growing through Joy (Ebook version: Beyond suffering) you find a comprehensive description of the different stages of love with its own qualities and challenges to give you a braoder view of the context of codependency. You will also find a hands-on manual in this book on how to strengthen a positive Self
I also offer a distance course on love for a self empowered, healthy and fulfilled life where I shift those energetic patterns through a broad range of healing modalities such as movement, breathing, colour or sound.
Be aware that this course happens within a cycle of themes such as love, money and health. Please, check when the course will be on offer. You will find the actual information about the next available course here
You will find a report about a session on love here
The course will give you insight into the underlying structure of your love addiction and teach you techniques of how to overcome it.
With this work, I am delighted to share forty years of research, work with thousands of people from all over the world and a lifelong experience of Selfgrowth and transformation with you to assist you in overcoming love addiction faster, less painful and more effective.
Distance courses work with wave patterns that reach beyond time and space. Personal presence is not required to fully benefit from it. You can sit comfortably at home and pace the process according to your needs.
During the course, you have a community of peers in the form of a forum and chat with whom you can share your questions, goals and results to deepen and enrich your experience.
The benefits of these courses for you will be to:
Get clear on what you want for your own life
Become aware of cultural patterns of thinking, feeling and behaviour that keep you addicted to love
Gain insight into the underlying structure of love addiction
Let go of life-depleting attitudes and habits that don't serve you any longer
Have your resonance transformed and optimised for the attitudes, thought patterns, feelings and behaviours that will drive you towards a self empowered, healthy and fulfilled life
Learn skills to manage your everyday life
Have professional and peer support to achieve what makes your life fulfilled
You are also very welcome to activate your own self help resources. I offer books, free articles and a free course with suggestions of how to overcome
The unpalatable truth is that falling in love is, in some ways, indistinguishable from a severe pathology. Behavior changes are reminiscent of psychosis and, biochemically speaking, passionate love closely imitates substance abuse. Appearing in the BBC series Body Hits on December 4, 2002 Dr. John Marsden, the head of the British National Addiction Center, said that love is addictive, akin to cocaine and speed. Sex is a "booby trap", intended to bind the partners long enough to bond.
Using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI), Andreas Bartels and Semir Zeki of University College in London showed that the same areas of the brain are active when abusing drugs and when in love. The prefrontal cortex - hyperactive in depressed patients - is inactive when besotted. How can this be reconciled with the low levels of serotonin that are the telltale sign of both depression and infatuation - is not known.
Other MRI studies, conducted in 2006-7 by Dr. Lucy Brown, a professor in the department of neurology and neuroscience at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, and her colleagues, revealed that the caudate and the ventral tegmental, brain areas involved in cravings (e.g., for food) and the secretion of dopamine, are lit up in subjects who view photos of their loved ones. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that affects pleasure and motivation. It causes a sensation akin to a substance-induced high.
On August 14, 2007, the New Scientist News Service gave the details of a study originally published in the Journal of Adolescent Health earlier that year. Serge Brand of the Psychiatric University Clinics in Basel, Switzerland, and his colleagues interviewed 113 teenagers (17-year old), 65 of whom reported having fallen in love recently.
The conclusion? The love-struck adolescents slept less, acted more compulsively more often, had "lots of ideas and creative energy", and were more likely to engage in risky behavior, such as reckless driving.
"'We were able to demonstrate that adolescents in early-stage intense romantic love did not differ from patients during a hypomanic stage,' say the researchers. This leads them to conclude that intense romantic love in teenagers is a 'psychopathologically prominent stage'".
But is it erotic lust or is it love that brings about these cerebral upheavals?
As distinct from love, lust is brought on by surges of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estrogen. These induce an indiscriminate scramble for physical gratification. In the brain, the hypothalamus (controls hunger, thirst, and other primordial drives) and the amygdala (the locus of arousal) become active. Attraction transpires once a more-or-less appropriate object is found (with the right body language and speed and tone of voice) and results in a panoply of sleep and eating disorders.
A recent study in the University of Chicago demonstrated that testosterone levels shoot up by one third even during a casual chat with a female stranger. The stronger the hormonal reaction, the more marked the changes in behavior, concluded the authors. This loop may be part of a larger "mating response". In animals, testosterone provokes aggression and recklessness. The hormone's readings in married men and fathers are markedly lower than in single males still "playing the field".
Still, the long-term outcomes of being in love are lustful. Dopamine, heavily secreted while falling in love, triggers the production of testosterone and sexual attraction then kicks in.
Helen Fisher of Rutger University suggests a three-phased model of falling in love. Each stage involves a distinct set of chemicals. The BBC summed it up succinctly and sensationally: "Events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness".
Moreover, we are attracted to people with the same genetic makeup and smell (pheromones) of our parents. Dr Martha McClintock of the University of Chicago studied feminine attraction to sweaty T-shirts formerly worn by males. The closer the smell resembled her father's, the more attracted and aroused the woman became. Falling in love is, therefore, an exercise in proxy incest and a vindication of Freud's much-maligned Oedipus and Electra complexes.
Writing in the February 2004 issue of the journal NeuroImage, Andreas Bartels of University College London's Wellcome Department of Imaging Neuroscience described identical reactions in the brains of young mothers looking at their babies and in the brains of people looking at their lovers.
"Both romantic and maternal love are highly rewarding experiences that are linked to the perpetuation of the species, and consequently have a closely linked biological function of crucial evolutionary importance" - he told Reuters.
This incestuous backdrop of love was further demonstrated by psychologist David Perrett of the University of St Andrews in Scotland. The subjects in his experiments preferred their own faces - in other words, the composite of their two parents - when computer-morphed into the opposite sex.
GW...part of this article is tough for me tom apply to my sitch since I've never met or even spoken to my EA (although it certainly was going in that direction)
I was drawn in by a respectful friendship, his emotional availability to me, and my admiration for him as a single Dad. Did not expect a 20 year age difference!!!
But... Here's the rest which may be more applicable to your W...
Helen Fisher seems to be a real expert on this topic... Dr.Danial Amen's book explains how to use supplements to overcome physical withdrawal from PEA.
But, your wife has to realize she is "under the influence" which creates alot of fantasy in her head that's not real ...
In my case, the EA broke a deep dark depression of 3 years, so my IC is also pointing out what a pay off that was for me. DEEP Sh!t !!
Here goes:
Body secretions play a major role in the onslaught of love. In results published in February 2007 in the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers at the University of California at Berkeley demonstrated convincingly that women who sniffed androstadienone, a signaling chemical found in male sweat, saliva, and semen, experienced higher levels of the hormone cortisol. This results in sexual arousal and improved mood. The effect lasted a whopping one hour.
Still, contrary to prevailing misconceptions, love is mostly about negative emotions. As Professor Arthur Aron from State University of New York at Stonybrook has shown, in the first few meetings, people misinterpret certain physical cues and feelings - notably fear and thrill - as (falling in) love. Thus, counterintuitively, anxious people - especially those with the "serotonin transporter" gene - are more sexually active (i.e., fall in love more often).
Obsessive thoughts regarding the Loved One and compulsive acts are also common. Perception is distorted as is cognition. "Love is blind" and the lover easily fails the reality test. Falling in love involves the enhanced secretion of b-Phenylethylamine (PEA, or the "love chemical") in the first 2 to 4 years of the relationship.
This natural drug creates an euphoric high and helps obscure the failings and shortcomings of the potential mate. Such oblivion - perceiving only the spouse's good sides while discarding her bad ones - is a pathology akin to the primitive psychological defense mechanism known as "splitting". Narcissists - patients suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder - also Idealize romantic or intimate partners. A similar cognitive-emotional impairment is common in many mental health conditions.
The activity of a host of neurotransmitters - such as Dopamine, Adrenaline (Norepinephrine), and Serotonin - is heightened (or in the case of Serotonin, lowered) in both paramours. Yet, such irregularities are also associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and depression.
It is telling that once attachment is formed and infatuation gives way to a more stable and less exuberant relationship, the levels of these substances return to normal. They are replaced by two hormones (endorphins) which usually play a part in social interactions (including bonding and sex): Oxytocin (the "cuddling chemical") and Vasopressin. Oxytocin facilitates bonding. It is released in the mother during breastfeeding, in the members of the couple when they spend time together - and when they sexually climax. Viagra (sildenafil) seems to facilitate its release, at least in rats.
It seems, therefore, that the distinctions we often make between types of love - motherly love vs. romantic love, for instance - are artificial, as far as human biochemistry goes. As neuroscientist Larry Young’s research with prairie voles at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University demonstrates:
"(H)uman love is set off by a “biochemical chain of events” that originally evolved in ancient brain circuits involving mother-child bonding, which is stimulated in mammals by the release of oxytocin during labor, delivery and nursing."
He told the New-York Times ("Anti-Love Drug May Be Ticket to Bliss", January 12, 2009):
“Some of our sexuality has evolved to stimulate that same oxytocin system to create female-male bonds,” Dr. Young said, noting that sexual foreplay and intercourse stimulate the same parts of a woman’s body that are involved in giving birth and nursing. This hormonal hypothesis, which is by no means proven fact, would help explain a couple of differences between humans and less monogamous mammals: females’ desire to have sex even when they are not fertile, and males’ erotic fascination with breasts. More frequent sex and more attention to breasts, Dr. Young said, could help build long-term bonds through a “ cocktail of ancient neuropeptides,” like the oxytocin released during foreplay or orgasm. Researchers have achieved similar results by squirting oxytocin into people’s nostrils..."
Moreover:
"A related hormone, vasopressin, creates urges for bonding and nesting when it is injected in male voles (or naturally activated by sex). After Dr. Young found that male voles with a genetically limited vasopressin response were less likely to find mates, Swedish researchers reported that men with a similar genetic tendency were less likely to get married ... 'If we give an oxytocin blocker to female voles, they become like 95 percent of other mammal species,' Dr. Young said. 'They will not bond no matter how many times they mate with a male or hard how he tries to bond. They mate, it feels really good and they move on if another male comes along. If love is similarly biochemically based, you should in theory be able to suppress it in a similar way.'"
Love, in all its phases and manifestations, is an addiction, probably to the various forms of internally secreted norepinephrine, such as the aforementioned amphetamine-like PEA. Love, in other words, is a form of substance abuse. The withdrawal of romantic love has serious mental health repercussions.
A study conducted by Dr. Kenneth Kendler, professor of psychiatry and director of the Virginia Institute for Psychiatric and Behavioral Genetics, and others, and published in the September 2002 issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, revealed that breakups often lead to depression and anxiety. Other, fMRI-based studies, demonstrated how the insular cortex, in charge of experiencing pain, became active when subjects viewed photos of former loved ones.
Still, love cannot be reduced to its biochemical and electrical components. Love is not tantamount to our bodily processes - rather, it is the way we experience them. Love is how we interpret these flows and ebbs of compounds using a higher-level language. In other words, love is pure poetry.
This natural drug creates an euphoric high and helps obscure the failings and shortcomings of the potential mate. Such oblivion - perceiving only the spouse's good sides while discarding her bad ones - is a pathology akin to the primitive psychological defense mechanism known as "splitting". Narcissists - patients suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder - also Idealize romantic or intimate partners. A similar cognitive-emotional impairment is common in many mental health conditions.
Pretty provocative stuff!!
The activity of a host of neurotransmitters - such as Dopamine, Adrenaline (Norepinephrine), and Serotonin - is heightened (or in the case of Serotonin, lowered) in both paramours. Yet, such irregularities are also associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and depression.
It is telling that once attachment is formed and infatuation gives way to a more stable and less exuberant relationship, the levels of these substances return to normal. They are replaced by two hormones (endorphins) which usually play a part in social interactions (including bonding and sex): Oxytocin (the "cuddling chemical") and Vasopressin. Oxytocin facilitates bonding.
Hang tight GW...
stay consistent.
let OM give her pressure and ultimatums... It's not that easy to to walk away from a H who is willing to work for M, can be FUN (I know this is hard... ) and rip apart your kid's home.
Especially when she starts to see the REALITY versus FANTASY. The fantasy feeds on the thrill of the I possibility of it all, the anticipation. If she has any sense she ' ll realize that there will still be dirty laundry, grocery shopping, budgeting, and the extra burden of juggling kids with the Ex. Not such an appealing fantasy anymore, eh?
You can only control YOU... Determine you are going to be FINE no matter what!
Be cordial, but don't get dragged into her drama...
New Life
WOW...thanks...I need to print and read
THOUGH...THINGS HAVE CHANGED
She contacted OM again last night via instant messaging, I caught her, told her I couldn't live with the disrespect and sneaking, that she needed to find a place to live, then she could chat with him all she wants.
From last nights conversations, it is obvious it is an addiction.
She even tells me that all it was these last couple of times is chit/chat...that unlike before, she is opening up emotionally to me, but she can't stop wondering what it would like with him.
So I don't know where we are at. Certainly NOT PIECING...and certainly headed towards Separation...
Flow-
Surprisingly, anxiety only hits me when my gut is telling me is contacting OM. See last update. Things going down the toilet fast. With what I've been through and learned and support I've received, I am very proud of calm I remained through all of this. Twice I even told W, stop, don't get angry or mean, I am staying calm and I am the one with every reason to be angry. She agreed and stopped and said I can't believe how calm you are about all this right now.
But what I am is sad and in a state of disbelief. Three weeks ago, we were making plans 3 to 5 years in the future, as well as plans for 3 to 6 months in the future, as well as plans for just 1 day in the future. We were married. We were happy. We both admit that. and now this. It makes me sad and upset that an addiction is what is probably going to kill this. After all this time and all this work, to get it all back, to then just lose it to an addiction she can't fight and can't decide for herself she needs help to overcome.
Gut,
Sorry about these new developments. I don't have much to offer you b/c I'm struggling with my sitch but I am thinking of you.
gr8
Gutwrenching,
I am SO sorry! Sending you a cyber (((HuG)))! Hold your kids tight and draw strength from them...
This guy is a real snake, a realm predator to go after another man's wife when he knows you've been working on the marriage. Sounds to me your wife will realize (maybe too late ) that he's the type that "If he'll do cheat with her, he'll cheat on her"!
Pull away, let her know that by her actions she is making a choice. DETACH, think of yourself...
It's the male instinct to be jealous about OM, so it is normal... But you can control your thoughts, which guide your emotions.
This sounds way more involved than my EA.... But, she's made a choice and if she doesn't 't choose to look deeper into herself and the REALITY of the situation, versus FANTASY... Well, her loss.
You can only control yourself GW. Can YOU get away, minimize some contact with her, find some activities and exercise for you???
Take care of yourself ... I'm so sorry it's taken this turn. But, unless a WAW wants to give it a shot with a H who is WILLING to work at M, you can't make it happen alone. And obviously, she is willing to put M at risk by continuing EA... Not sure if you had to discover or she was transparent?
Sending strength and prayers your way....
Lotus,
Great perspective! Learning alot by reading GW thread and trying to maintain my own wpself -control, pride, and dignity. Yes, those are the 3 words I keep reminding myself of ... The "cost" of EA to me, although the benefits were many, primarily jolting me out of a death spiral depression. Great wake-up call... Which I am thankful for, but also thankful for ability to see it wasn't more than that.
Still trying to figure out how to fix M, so thanks Lotus for that insight...
Sorry GW, don't want to hijack your thread!
Hijack away New life. Funny how the tablse have turned, you are the one trying to feed me strength now. I am also getting a ton of great advice from someone that I can't mention for risk of getting banned...but 3 whistles to another who is helping me.
New Life, you are paying me back now and I SO appreciate it. I am trying to be strong. I am pushing fear aside. My W deep down does know he will cheat on her...she once said to me during peicing that one woman will never be enough for him...he is too needy.
I read all on the addictive, the difference is W won't admit to herself its an addiction...she loves him and of course she loves me.
I need to make her feel the loss...I haven't done that yet...have too. Am formulating plans of action now.
Great - thanks -
GW...
What she feels for OM is NOT love...
She's in an altered mental state and isn't thinking clearly; trust me... Karma's a b!tch, and she's so messed up right now.
One day, after you've moved on, she'll be begging you to take her back.
But, sadly... It will be too late because you'll be OVER it!
How do I know? My college sweetheart cheated on, even after we were engaged. It killed me at first, but eventually I realized HE had the problem, rather than previously thinking I wasn't pretty enough, etc.
Well, he was pretty stunned when I refused to marry him -- still calls me to this day 30 years later... After a while you just get sick of the abuse, and you don't get hurt anymore.... You get ANGRY, then... Even better...
You just don't care! I know it 's more complicated with kids, etc. But you will get there.
Get out there and play the Glee version of the Cee Lo Green song "Forget You!"... I'll try to post a link to that from YouTube because music has been great therapy for me these past few weeks. Distraction helps with addictions!
GW... Find some reasons to smile, filling my IPOD has been very therapeutic !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFJtvtkcdPA&feature=youtube_gdata_playerEnjoy... I'll send you more "Forget You! "
Music if you need it! Make W wonder what YOU are smiling about ;))
Cee Lo's male version you can find on You Tube if you like.
GW, I want to shake your wife... not too hard, just enough to bring her to her senses!!!
New Life- 'forget you' was perfect for my sitch too. THANK YOU! Enjoyed it very much.
Thanks Evolve. I have said that so MANY times myself its not funny. She is caught in an endless logic loop at the moment. Think I'm going to have to do something to shock her out of it, whichever way it shocks her out of it...
Hi GW, just wanted to send you my support and say I'm so sorry things have taken a downwards turn for you. It sounds like you're getting great advice so I'll just say I'm so sorry to hear you're struggling. I believe in your ability to rise above and heal from this. Take care, FMV.
Thanks FMV. This is so hard even the second time around, but it is not as hard. We are moving sideways right now. I have to assume she is still in contact with OM. She doesn't seem capable of making a desicion. I need to put my plans on hold until I can consult a lawyer, which stinks, cause I am ready to move this situation one way or the other.
The holidays is a killer for me.
Last year was the most miserable holiday season of my life. I was so looking forward to erasing those painful memories...and now Thanksgiving will be tense again and Xmas...who knows...too far in the future
What are the plans for Thanksgiving? Holidays do seem to make things more intense. When I was in the middle of my EA, it just made my fantasy larger.
Will you be getting any time off for Christmas?
Thanksgiving is together as a "family"
Christmas...too far off to tell...I'm not even sure we will still be living together at that point to be honest
How did the holidays make your fantasty larger? ANything I could do to prevent that from happening?
Interesting Sandi, holidays made my fantasy a little larger too a couple of years ago...
I can't think of anything my H could have done to get me out of it at the time. I think it is the stress and pressure of having a 'wonderful' holiday that drove me into how that would happen in a greener pasture.
Sticking with the comment I made to you on my sitch...
Great, so this time of year is going to make it worse! Perfect.
Eeek. Sorry, doesn't it always no matter what the situation?? Maybe that is just me, and my not-so-enviable childhood...
Don't be sorry. Its ok. Not what I wanted to hear, but guess what, I've heard a lot of what I don't want hear over the past couple of weeks...so just have to keep on pressing on
It will make me sound like a nut case, but in truth, I guess I was. I always saw Christmas as a "romantic" time. Maybe I bought into all the movies, IDK. But being fogged out in the EA just had me dreaming of the wrong things--instead of my family and especially my H. But also, I had just gotten into the EA about the same time.....so I'm sure the timing had a lot of effect.
Could my H had done anything to stop or change it? In my case, I don't think he knew right then.....I honestly can't recall right now. If he did, he hadn't confronted me. The only thing that would have jerked me out of the dream state would have meant he ruined the holidays for everyone, and he wouldn't do that. He would suffer in silence, first.
In your case, she knows that you know. You have two little girls looking forward to Christmas, so you have much of the same burden as my H did. I would focus on them and put the W/OM/A on back burner till after Christmastime, for the sake of the children. I cannot think of anything you could accomplish for everyone's good by breaking up the family during this time. Others may disagree and tell you not to put up with her and to put her out of the house, and maybe at one time...I would have given that advice, but my gut feeling about this is to keep it together in the home front until afterwards.
You've done it before, GW, and I know you are tired and ready for it to be settled, but can you take your focus off of her and make this time for you and the girls? Live this next month....as if it would be the last month, and Christmas...as a family. Something to think about, isn't it? Make memories for your daughters. If your W will be a part of that, then good, and if she's too fogged out, stressed out, or whatever....stay focused on what is the most important thing...your children.
((hugs))
Sandi my dear friend. Thanks for the time again. Yes, you have given something to think about and you struck a guilt nerve with whether you realize it or not.
It was just before Xmas last year that I found DB and found out about the A. I told myself I was going to wait till after Xmas and you and others said hold off for a few days. And then I let emotions get the best of me and I didn't...and I felt guily for a long time about not being strong enough.
That being said, I need to think about this. I need to make the right decision whatever I think that it. I've got one formerly known as Puppy advising me slightly differently for good reasons also. And so far, I have not acted on anything.
The bottom line might be can I take my focus off of her and this siutation. I'm not sure at this point.
Thanks again
I probably have an idea of Pup's advice. Not many times I disagree with him, but I look at it this way....what do you have to lose by holding on till after Christmas? Before you say anything, I have thought about the self-respect....and you know how strongly I feel about a W respecting her H. So, have you considered telling your W that you have decided to make the very most of this next month....for the sake of your girls. By doing so, you are not stamping your approval on her A with OM. If you want to sleep apart from her or even consider it an in-house separation....I think that should be your call from the POV of not living in an open M, instead of her her call of chosing OM over her M. Does that make sense? To me, that leaves your integridy in tack, but also buys a bit more time....if time is what you want. But most of all, it doesn't distroy Christmas for the kids.
I suppose the big question would be...what do you really want. Do you want one last shot at the M, or are you ready to call it quits? The second question would be....can you do this for the girls or not?
GW, in spite of what any of us advise....this is your life, not ours. You have to make those decisions and live with the results.
Sandi2, your wisdom amazes me.
Definitely your call GW.
You are in control.
GW,
I realize this may be coming too late for you and W, but if she DOES want to try again, I highly recommend Love Addicts tips...
Here's one I read over and over when tempted to contact OM:
" I agree that a very important part of the NC (No Contact) process is to PLAN before you leap. Think about good 'ol Chris Columbus. Do you think he just hopped on the Santa Maria to set sail for the new world with just his hat and compass? heck no. He would have never made it. He knew his voyage was to last many months so he PREPARED, had a crew and loads of food to back him up.
Heading into NC is much the same. You need to plan. The better you are at taking care of yourself during this time, the more you have to fall back on, the less chance your attempt at NC will fail. Here are a few tips:
1. Have a hobby available to keep you busy, or two or three. A lot of addictive people claim that "working with your hands" is the best as it forces you to keep your mind on the task at hand.
2. Get ready to eat your favorite stuff. Addiction is Oral. Even love addiction. Stock up on "feel good" foods at least until you get through the initial withdrawal phase (if you are concerned about weight, make healthier choices, chew gum, sugarless lollipops etc.!) But right now is not the time to worry about putting on a *few* (and I mean few!) extra pounds. Your NC takes priority. You can lose the weight when you are feeling better.
3. Have friends and family ready to talk and listen. Make sure they know what you're attempting so that you have extra support. If family members aren't supportive, seek out friends or support groups; people who will understand what you might be going through.
4. Make plans, goals and activities that would NOT have included PoA (go to the movies by yourself, attend a concert, visit the bookstore, sit at a cafe and people-watch etc.)
5. If you can, go out and shop. Buy yourself something NICE. Remember to pamper yourself through withdrawal. The nicer you are to yourself and the more resources you have to get through withdrawal, the more SUCCESSFUL YOU WILL BE!
6. Go get a massage, a manicure, a pedicure...WHATEVER. My all time favorite: changing the color of my hair. Nothing too drastic. But enough to make me feel revived.
7. Get involved in a TV or HBO series, or a sitcom. Comedy is your best choice. It serves to distract AND lighten your mood.
8. MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT TURN YOUR NC INTO A BAD THING. You have a choice: you can think positively about what you are doing for yourself, or negative. THINK POSITIVE. It's a happy time. Not a sad time. You are NOT...I REPEAT NOT losing anything worthwhile. YOU ARE GAINING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAINING YOUR LIFE BACK.
9. Remember the Ten Minute Rule. It's a SAFETY NET for those moments of intense craving. For example, whenever you feel the intense URGE to call or make contact, say to yourself, "first let me post this message on the LAA board" or "let me take a brisk walk for Ten Minutes." Meditate, breathe, whatever you can do...do it for ten minutes. Cravings tend to pass within minutes and you will be OK again.
10. Post here often. This is a support group. Someone WILL respond to you. Perhaps you could make that your safety net when you have a crave. Post first and say, I will wait until someone responds to my post before entertaining the idea of contact. By then, the craving will most likely have passed.
11. Practice the art of positive Self Talk. You MUST reaffirm, daily, your reasons and motivations for wanting to keep NC. The more you "brainwash" yourself into believing and understanding that NC is the ONLY WAY to go, you will be convinced. Tell yourself things like, "hang in there," "I can do this," "Keeping NC and staying away is an ACT OF SELF LOVE," and "I am Worth it..."
12. Keep a journal. It's one of the healthiest ways to cleanse your soul. To get to know who you are. To see, on paper, what you are feeling. Besides, it busts a crave! In your journal, keep a LIST of things you can do to keep busy. Fall back on this list if you find yourself fantasizing about your PoA, or bored or feeling "empty." Make it a long list. You're going to need the choices!
13. SOme other distractions you can keep in your arsenal if craves/withdrawal gets bad: Take a shower (you can't use the phone from the there), take a nap, clean the house, drive, leave your cell phone at home, go swimming, take a bath, call a FRIEND, make an appointment somewhere (salon, doc office, dentist, etc.), do crossword puzzles, play solitaire, go to the gym, ride your bike, bake a cake, paint something, etc.
Bottom line: STAY BUSY and KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE PRIZE. You are doing a good thing for yourself. Getting through withdrawal is hard, but it's a matter of determination and self conditioning. We've been through much worse pain than this. We can definitely handle a few months of withdrawal. IT DOES GET BETTER. YOU WILL FEEL BETTER. But you must see NC as a priority; something worth your time and effort. "
Thinking of you and sending STRONG thoughts your way!
Sandi -
I don't know right now what I want. That is part of the problem. I think I know, but then when I do some soul searching, I am no longer 100% positive. I think I would give it one more shot...
Puppy actually is NOT against your advice provided I have legal and financial situations squared away (not quite there yet) and that I have intel sources to protect me and the family. He says without those 3, then he doesn't recommend waiting. He is actually not going full boar on this one as you might expect.
Respect is an issue that would have to be resolved. Because I feel like I let her walk on me as it is...by not already sending her packing...but Puppy got me off that path of kicking her out without having legal advice first
More later
Short on time at moment
GW, I always love R2C's slogan: "what is right for my children is right for me".
STBXH bombed me on Dec 22 as we were driving to our yearly Christmas holiday-at-snowy-rustic-cabins-with-another-family. The middle of the night crying and conversations while the kids were sleeping were HORRIBLE. But I am grateful that we had one last family Christmas. We (meaning *I*) pulled off creating the Christmas magic for my children and I wouldn't trade the bittersweet memories of watching my kids enjoy a family Christmas for the last time. Of course, I'm tearing up thinking about it. This year, I don't have that choice. My children don't get to spend Christmas with both of their parents and they are very sad about that, especially because our Christmases used to be AMAZING.
Get your ducks in a row and protect yourself legally, financially, and emotionally. If you can, involve supportive people in your Christmas plans as much as you can...that can help to keep the focus on the kids and making it great for them. The other family helped me a lot last Christmas when I was shocked and devastated. The situation pulled me outside of myself enough that I could focus on the kids and the fun for periods of time, which I am very grateful for.
The holidays make things worse because it's a time when people conjure visions of the "ideal" in their heads...and then compares their lives to that vision. I know that will be a trap for me this year.
Surprisingly, anxiety only hits me when my gut is telling me is contacting OM.
You have a strong intuition and you are very attuned to her. Make sure that you direct that intuition towards YOURSELF too. Use your gut to figure out what you need, from day to day, hour to hour, moment to moment.
But what I am is sad and in a state of disbelief. Three weeks ago, we were making plans 3 to 5 years in the future, as well as plans for 3 to 6 months in the future, as well as plans for just 1 day in the future. We were married. We were happy. We both admit that. and now this.
You are back in the "shattered" stage of coping with abandonment. It's a time to focus on the present and try to deal with the now, only the now.
It makes me sad and upset that an addiction is what is probably going to kill this. After all this time and all this work, to get it all back, to then just lose it to an addiction she can't fight and can't decide for herself she needs help to overcome.
I have VERY mixed feelings about this line of thinking. Yes, there are aspects of addiction at work here. But at the same time your W is making CHOICES and has FREE WILL. Do not make the mistake of making this about the OM, or "addiction". This can't work if your W does not take serious action towards dealing with the mess that she's created. You cannot do it for her and you must hold her to a standard of behaviour as she does this. Make no mistake, she has the power and responsibility to fix this, and absolving her of that allows her to live in a fantasy of her actions having no consequences.
I know you know this, but I just want you to be careful about letting her off the hook because she is "addicted". She is driving in a car that wants to veer off to the left, but she is still holding the steering wheel, and her foot can still push on the gas...or the brakes.
hugs friend.
GW,
I'm so sorry you are going through this again. Let me remind you that the thing that got her out of the fog last time was honestly being ready to leave, and forcing her to make the decision.
I think you should stop trying to figure out how to help her overcome her addiction. I'm in Alanon and you cannot fix or change an addiction. You aren't that powerful. It's not your fault she's chosing this and its not your job to help her out of it. People don't change that way. They have to face the consequences. And I remember that as long as you gave her an option, she kept things in limbo.
Seriously I have no idea when to do it. As a parent, who has spent her first holiday without her son today, I GET the holiday thing. So I don't think when is the question. But even though you may feel grief, shock, anxiety, all that stuff we all feel, put your mind at work. Your mind knows she doesn't act when given a choice. If you are there to "help" her, she won't help herself.
Let her be alone. Even for a temporary separation. Force her to go the other way, toward OM. It may not be the end of your marriage, because she will see for herself that OM is a loser who is using her. You CANNOT MAKE HER SEE THIS.
I know it goes against everything we feel, we want, and how we see love, but letting go IS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE YOURSELF AGONY in the long run, and may save your M. You know the old pattern of limbo doesn't.
(())
Everyone is right, and oh I so appreciate all the thoughts....H4L, Flow, Newlife, Sandi, etc.
Yesterday was odd. We both tried to have a good holiday and for the most part it was. Obviously not ideal, but strangely not bad. There was some affection and I'm not even sure how I felt about that. I'm not sure how I felt about the whole day in general.
I'm becoming a little numb to all this. The big decision is when...obviously. Push now to move things along or wait till after Christmas. What is the right thing to do, what would God tell me to do if standing next to me, and what can I handle. Realistically, I know i can handle a lot, so I guess its more of what am I willing to handle.
Thanks again, everyone is giving me ton to think about.
You have a strong intuition and you are very attuned to her. Make sure that you direct that intuition towards YOURSELF too. Use your gut to figure out what you need, from day to day, hour to hour, moment to moment/quote]
[quote]Do not make the mistake of making this about the OM, or "addiction". This can't work if your W does not take serious action towards dealing with the mess that she's created. You cannot do it for her and you must hold her to a standard of behaviour as she does this
I know...this isn't letting her off the hook, but trying to understand how a women I thought was so strong can continue to mess her life up. Heck she told me in talking to a friend the other day, she said "I'm trying to completely mess up my life again"...and it helps me forgive, which is not a bad thing
I think you should stop trying to figure out how to help her overcome her addiction. I'm in Alanon and you cannot fix or change an addiction.
You are right and I have. I needed to try to understand...I do more so now...and that helps me, just knowing a little.
[quote]And I remember that as long as you gave her an option, she kept things in limbo. /quote]
Yes you are so right on this. So simply put, and so accurate.
[quote]Let her be alone. Even for a temporary separation. Force her to go the other way, toward OM. It may not be the end of your marriage, because she will see for herself that OM is a loser who is using her. You CANNOT MAKE HER SEE THIS./quote]
Just a matter of when...now or after christmas. I like you caps section...I needed that not so subtle reminder. Really did. Thank you
Let me just journal this, cause it still amazes me. A real WTF situation. At our t-day dinner, just the two of us and two kids...she suggests we do something that we have never done and said lets all say one thing we are thankful for. She starts and says family! I almost reached across the table and smacked her! There...got that one out me.
Well done for keeping your hands to yourself hun! Echo the others its time to WA yourself, its the only way she is going to see sense, ok it might make a horrendous mess of Xmas but lets be honest her continuing what she is doing isnt going to make a nice Xmas anyway ())
Well now she is cracking already...
OM ended it supposedly on MOnday saying he was tired of all this and now he realizes that she will never leave her H.
I still haven't heard enough to be convinced this is worth it and that we are at a point with enough to give it the effort required
She did say to me that you have all the control now...you have decide if you would even be willing to try again after this mess I created again
OMG... ok, no pressure.
Enact 48 hour rule?
I hope you are still running and taking care of yourself...
(((GW)))
BTW, thanks for sharing the WTF moment... laughed my a** off. Oh the fog, confusion... you did very well!
Well now she is cracking already...
OM ended it supposedly on MOnday saying he was tired of all this and now he realizes that she will never leave her H.
I still haven't heard enough to be convinced this is worth it and that we are at a point with enough to give it the effort required
She did say to me that you have all the control now...you have decide if you would even be willing to try again after this mess I created again
I don't like that she is acting like she's at the mercy of OM and you. She needs to get control of herself. You are not in control of her doing the work that she needs to do now. The only control you have is spelling out what she would need to do to have a CHANCE at being with you...no guarantees. Her being dumped by OM is not going to make her into a person who is capable of being in a healthy marriage.
48 hour rule for sure.
(((Hugs)))
I agree with Flowmom. So she is dumped by him, what makes her think you are willing to take second prize. Perhaps she needs a cold shoulder to show her that she has made quite a mess of her life.
Besides, he's probably just using reverse psychology on her and trying to capture her by pulling away.
I"m sorry but without knowing at all what happened there, I feel she is playing victim still. OM ended it, not her. Meaning, she is not ready to own up to HER PART. Giving YOU CONTROL, is not telling you she WILL DO ANYTHING TO SAVE HER MARRIAGE.
I hate this pushmepullyou ride she puts you on. She's forcing everyone else to make choices while feeling sorry for herself, not admitting how she has hurt you and your family, and not admitting her own responsibility to chose her family or her fantasy. I say push her away still until she comes back with a spine. Sorry but it makes me so mad to hear this!!!!
And dont forget. Supposedly this affair was ended before, and they went back. You have no guarantees from her whatsoever right now that they won't jump back in.
STay strong and resolute. I totally agree with FM and the others!!!
H4L has a point, time to state your boundaries again, stronger still but with no guarantee to her that you will take her back, she needs to fufil a criteria that you set to move this back into a marriage status.. Havent read much on it but the road back to me letter seems to fit the bill this time!
Gutwrenching-
Take my advice for what it's worth, b/c I have had no successes at the moment.... but I think you should do what Sandi suggested and tell her you will take the time between now and Christmas to decide. But I am putting a vote in for the kids on this one, if you can stomach having her in the house (b/c I know how hard this is). I say wait until after the holiday, otherwise your children will always associate Christmas with their mom leaving. I completely agree with setting boundaries and not condoning the affair, but i don't think a month would make that much of a difference one way or the other in making or breaking the marriage, and it would sure be good for the kids.
How are you doing today, GW?
Sandi/others
I am doing fine. We are certainly back on the roller coaster, I remember this one. She did not crack...back to her resolve and uncertainty.
Trying to keep this short. Lets see if I can cover the major things.
- She would like me to just boot her out of the house so the decision is made for her...so that makes me want to do the opposite even more...as I told her "you need to fix this mess and decide what you want once and for all"
- She does not feel she can afford an apartment, so she would have to rent a room in someone’s house…which then led to we have a big enough house, I could just live in the basement here…I am not so sure I like that idea at all…not sure that brings about the reality needed for her to make up her mind
- She is up and down…from telling me one evening she has no patience with me to kissing me the next morning.
- Claims there is no contact with OM because he said no more. My response was “I wish I could believe that.” She said no its done. I then replied, W, we both know the pattern. This has happened many times before. Then a week or two from now, one of you will reach out and email the other and it’ll start all over again. She again said no it won’t. I replied, well, back in Aug you were certain you two would never communicate again, and then he repeatedly sent you notes and then you reached back out to him after a few.
- She did admit that she needs to see an IC and figure out what is wrong and help her determine what she should do…however, I suspect that she won’t ever do that unless I hold her hand all the way there (find a good IC, tell her we can afford to pay for it, give her the number, etc)
So all in all, I am doing ok. Great, no not great…still sad to be back here. But Ok – yes I am fine. I still grapple with waiting till after Xmas. But am probably leaning that way for the kids. That statement about the kids associating Christmas with their mom leaving hit me pretty hard. It resonates. Cause now after 2 years in a row of this crap storming down, I associate Thanksgiving and Christmas with my wife dropping bombs…so that one I can relate too
FYI, at the point where my H had just broken 2 months of non-contact with his OW (not that I had any way of knowing this, except that his behaviour became a lot more up-and-down) and was talking for the first time about possibly leaving the house and talking about how our relationship was unfixable, I was the one to find an MC, make the initial calls, set up the appointment, etc. I'm sure I chose better than he could possibly have done at the time, because a depressed person is almost incapable of making decisions.
The next 3 months were hellish for me, but in retrospect I can't believe how much progress my H made in that time because of being forced to work on his issues by the C. No matter what happens in your marriage, that work would be invaluable for your children.
I remember 3 horrible Christmases in a row. But you know, after that they've just got better and better--hang in there, and make it the best one you can for your kids.
Cyrena
Wow, thank you! Someone else told me basically the same thing in different context...recommended I find a good family therapist, make an appointment for just me, and then invite W along for the future.
We made 3 months before the relapse. And now the same talk...talking about leaving the house, all the damage she has done again...doesn't know how we could fix it...and the other big kicker is the constant thought that maybe he is the one she should be with.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience
As a shared friend of ours would say to the WAW, "This is your mess...you get to clean it up". Sometimes it may be hard to determine when to be tough and when to soften, but I don't understand why you should be the one moving to the basement. I don't see any fairness in that option at all.
It's good to finally hear from you. Thought about you all through the weekend. Even though I was in the place that your W is facing....and I know what she's feeling....it doesn't stop me from wanting to shake her. Brain damage, I tell you....pure brain damage results from these blasted PEA's.
IT wouldn't be moving in the basement, it would be her. She knows that, but I am not ok with that. I think it would make my life miserable and I couldn't take it.
I used that line this weekend...she told me she wishes I would have just packed her bags and told her to get out, I said this is your mess, you need to fix it and figure out once and for all what you want.
I want to shake her so hard it isn't funny! I appreciate you feeling the same way.
Hey gw, I just read your entire thread. I must admit my h and your w could be related. My h has been coming and going from our house for months now. Sometimes he'll admit it is because of ow. Most times he will deny it as if previous conversations never happened. He is depressed. I'm convinced that he is addicted or self-medicating with the phone calls and non-stop texting with ow. She and I have texted and she claims he is a liar and tried to destroy her and her family.....yet she still talks with him. WTF.
I think she enjoys the attention from him. I'm sure he takes her to dinner and buys her things and then when she doesn't return the feelings back he flips out on her. He'll come home, mope around and complain about being "depressed" and then he is right back within 1-4 weeks contacting her, more like begging her because he can't live without her.
I'm at a point to where I've had enough and need to pull away drastically.
Best wishes to you and your kids this holiday. I'm inspired by your honesty and boundaries you have set.
Quick update...
"Odd" behavior in the last 24 hours. I say odd cause I have not seen this before. I guess this is a new form of limbo land.
She is showing/initiating small amounts of affection...small kisses, couple words here and there.
It has always been all or nothing in the past...nothing like this.
Leaning strongly towards waiting this all out thru Christmas
I'll tell you what I think it is. OM dumped her. She's been jilted and she is turning to you for some emotional strokes. It's brain damage.
Kind of like a child who shows you her boo-boo and wants you kiss and put a band-aid over the hurt and make it all better.
Ok wise Sandi...and then what would be the best way to respond?
I really feel for you trying to navigate through this GW. All I can suggest is to listen to your gut about what YOU need. Try to focus on yourself. Unhealthy focus on your W derails you from following your direction.
(((hugs)))
LISTEN TO SANDI ^^^^^^
At least in my sitch, any time some new and weird behavior came from H, especially if it meant he was nicer all of a sudden, SOMETHING WAS UP. And it wasn't good for me. PROTECT YOURSELF. DON'T GET SUCKED IN BUDDY.
and then what would be the best way to respond?
Well,when I was a kid and got hurt playing, my mother was the type who did NOT just kiss the wound and put a band-aid on it. She would put iodine or alcohol (something that burned the heck out of it). She would NOT be mean to me, but if I got hurt
playing where I had no business playing.....she would not baby me. Through my tears, I would hear her message....."Sandi,
you knew better than that. I told you not to play there. Now you see what can happen". She didn't yell or act mad, but
I knew the difference in getting accidently hurt within the realm that I was allowed..... from when I got hurt playing where I had been [b]warned not to go. I quickly learned the difference in Mother's reaction from the difference consequences.[/b]
So, my advise would be to not kiss her wound and put the band-aid over it. I think she needs to feel the burn. You don't have to lecture, yell, etc.,but but I would be very cafeful and not get all melty-man. Your M is on the line. She's been rejected & hurt and she's turning to you for comfort.
My POV is that she needs to know that you will not jump up & down with joy by being her left-overs. You show a calmness that radiates strength. As of right now, you have not made a decision........and I think that is what you should tell her if she begins acting as if nothing ever happened. You may have to say that you are still thinking about it and have not come to a final decision.
When she shows you physical affection......like a hug, I'm not saying that you have to push her away, but don't get all warm & fuzzy over it,either. This is the second time around and she needs to know that you won't be manipulated as easy as she may have thought after she got dumped.
Hold the line, continue to monitor(as DB says) and see how things go till Christmas.
Well,hope this doesn't get banned.
((hugs))
Sandi - thanks...I think its less likely to get banned in piecing...don't think they check as much here.
Last night, she initiated two short mini R talks. Probably 5 minutes each, maybe 10 tops. I did my best to say little to not prolong them, cause I didn’t see much good coming.
It starts with her asking me if I knew how she can see a IC (with insurance paying for it)…that one shocked me...I really didn't think she would ever follow thru on getting an IC.
So I told her I had done some research for me to see someone and that I was looking at people that did both IC and MC with the thought that maybe at some point we would progress to MC. She listened to how that worked, but I think is leery about spending the $$. If we have the insurance pay for it, we won’t be choosing the best…we will have to take whomever they give us
She asked why did I need to see someone. So I told her. I told her I have to figure out what I want to do, cause I don't know, and I think I probably need help to recover, and the book I’ve been reading has given me hope but made me realize talking to a professional will probably help me. And, if we decide to split, that too will be tough and I think having someone to talk to will help.
W said that is admirable but I think this is all too much. Whenever I look at you, all I see is (I forget the words she used but it was basically betrayal). W said whenever I point out someone like I did today, I start wondering what are you thinking. I start assuming you are thinking boy I bet he wouldn’t think so highly of you if he knew what you did. W said things will never be the same now, if I had kept this to myself then only I would have had to deal with it, but now you know everything and it will always be there between us. I listened, validated, and then said but only I can decide how much I can deal with, not you. And yes those things happened and the only way to move forward would be to decide to work together and heal together. And right now, with C, I still think there is a chance that I might be able to deal with this.
Then W talked about her and what she needs from IC. W said she needs to talk to IC to figure out what it is that is missing, what emotional need is not being filled, otherwise she will always be reaching out to someone else. I validated and said and if you figure that out, you need to communicate it to me and help me understand how to fill that need.
I did chime in with I think it is more than just figuring out if this is too much, I think you are still trying to figure out WHO you want to be with. Her reply was a somewhat flippant, well that doesn’t matter anymore, too late to worry about that. I let it die there…
Then we had some peaceful, quiet time together on the couch. Kind of odd. Went to bed, neither of us were falling asleep real easy. Neither of us could get up to work out, too tired, so I asked her if she slept well…she said no. I honestly told her neither did I.
Then this morning, that opposite babble. Talks about the future and one year down the road.
Flow and H4L -
In order to take care of me, I have to decided that I need to see an IC. I am probably beyond my abilities now and probably need help to ensure I take care of me.
Then W talked about her and what she needs from IC. W said she needs to talk to IC to figure out what it is that is missing, what emotional need is not being filled, otherwise she will always be reaching out to someone else. I validated and said and if you figure that out, you need to communicate it to me and help me understand how to fill that need.
THIS sounds like the most positive thing I have read in a long time. I only get to dream of this conversation in my sitch. Your W is YEARS ahead of my H... I think your response was perfect. I hope she can truly follow through with this.
I think you are a remarkable person!
Flow and H4L -
In order to take care of me, I have to decided that I need to see an IC. I am probably beyond my abilities now and probably need help to ensure I take care of me.
Good for you GW. Actually, you're showing that you have the ability to get support when needed and that is so important, in crises more than ever. IC has helped me a lot in my life, and it's helping me now.
In order to take care of me, I have to decided that I need to see an IC.
(((GW))) I'm so glad you're valuing yourself enough to get the support you need. You deserve it.
GW-
I really respect how you are able to have these talks with your wife and remain so calm. You are such a strong person!
You are doing this in a balanced, measured way. We all cheer you on!
You are doing this in a balanced, measured way. We all cheer you on!
Yep,I'm on the cheering team with my pom-poms waving and I'm jumping around......but please don't ask me to do the
splits!
(Just trying to get a little 4:40 am humor going.)
I seriously am praying you have a good day,GW.
((hugs))
Nothing significant to report. She is in bad mood. Claims she doesn’t know why. Things suddenly tense with us again at least from the way she is acting around me. She was looking at places to live in craigslist again last night.
Thank you all. One of the few things I've learned to do pretty well is stay calm...or at least notice when I am losing calmness and get it back quickly.
Strong...not so sure on that one. I still feel somewhat weak. I haven't been able to detach and let go of the dream. And I still let her moods affect mine too much...
Thanks for all the kind words and prayers. And I love the attempts at cheerleader humor, I needed that this morning
W in a funk all evening. Conversation between us suddenly getting less and less. She has just about stopped all affection other than being held before going to sleep...
I let her mood affect me less than usual yesterday so that was a positive, knowing that is still a weakness of mine.
Time to bring up her IC again...don't think she will actually ge the help if I don't lead her there.
Like many others, Christmas time rough. My parents want to know if we are visiting, I've put all shopping/plans for W on hold, work wants to know if we plan on taking time off, etc...all tough when you really don't/can't look that far into the future
GW, time to lead. Make decisions and follow through on them, with or without your W. She is a basket case so tell her that you are going to make plans and she needs to let you know now if there's anything that should be considered as you make those plans. Refuse to live in limbo. Your W has put herself in that he!!, but you don't have to join her there. You have a life and your children have a life. Put stuff on the calendar and get on with it. Show your leadership and direction to yourself, your children, and your W. Christmas is a triggering time for many of us.
My advice is to seriously skip anything that smacks of duty and "should" this year and concentrate on old and new traditions that nourish you and your children. I started doing that a few years ago and it has transformed the xmas experience for me for the better. It still involves a lot of work, but it's not shopping, and card-sending work, or duty visits. It's creating memories that we will all cherish for the rest of our lives.
Good for you for detaching from her moods. It's actually more stressful for her when her being down triggers the same in you. Go for a run, have a beer with friends, soak in a hot tub. Do something that helps you feel good every day if you can. It might feel self-indulgent but sometimes stuff like that is emergency first aid.
(((hugs)))
Only significant update from the day is W said to me: how about you find that good C you said you could find and we go from there. This was after last night when I told her that cost was no object for finding a experienced family therapist with a good track record of helping people in similar situations heal. And I also told her that I would not support paying for someone that would just make her feel good about running away from our family and M. It stung her a bit when I said it last night and she reacted a bit put off...24 hours later, I got the green light to find the right one and then she thanked me for being patient with her through this.
She was still in down/melancholy mood today.
Today I gave us both a bunch of space. She read a book most the day, I hung with the kids and did my own projects around the house. After kids in bed, she suggested we watch movie and go in hot tub...which we did...and it was after those things that I got the comments I just mentioned above
GW, keep taking things one day at a time. (((hugs)))
I just read the above but had already responded to you on my thread...
Guess we were on the same wavelength
Trying to not get overly excited for you as we all know how up and down the crazy WAS's mind works BUT... what I wouldn't give to hear that from my H.
I might be successful at detaching from my H's feelings but I get more attached to people's feelings on this board--never mind that I have never met any of you!
It stung her a bit when I said it last night and she reacted a bit put off...24 hours later, I got the green light to find the right one and then she thanked me for being patient with her through this.
Morning GW, just wanted to drop by and send you my support; it must feel like you're constantly on an uphill battle, and I admire your tenacity in striving to keep your M together. I just wanted to let you know too, how significant it is that she wants to go to counseling with you.
Just a thought too, that her negative reaction to your comment below might not be a
confirmation that she was indeed planning to use it as a way to just make her feel good about running away. Do you think there might be any other reasons? Could she be scared about going?
For example, as much as I'd wanted my H to come to C with me, I was afraid to bring him at the same time because I was scared my H would paint me as 'the bad one' in the M and that my side of the story would never be understood. That it would simply become a venue for my H 'beating up on me' and that he'd be able to turn my IC against me to the point that they'd 'gang up on me'; that he'd be able to convince my IC of how 'bad' I was. It was really scary.
Like I said, just a thought. You know your W best, but just wanted to encourage you to consider other possible motivations for her reaction to your comment. Hugs and good thoughts to you GW. FMV.
Good point. The WAW doesn't like that feeling of being caught with her hand in the cookie jar,and with GW telling her what he would not support in a FT, it may have caused some of that "caught ya" sting. That's ok, b/c it's better for her to experience some sting, rather than finding a FT that would justify her A.
You are doing an amazing job,GW.
Well not so amazing any more...
My intel sources have confirmed a bunch of emails back and forth yesterday with OM. Yes he dumped her...but of course, now they are emailing again. OM is telling her she will never be happy with me, but that also she should stay with me because I was still a good option. A bunch of else. Lots of ILYs and words of affection back and forth.
mess.
Waiting till Xmas no longer seems like an option. I am afraid I will be too damaged. The disrespect is too great. I love my kids, but I can't be a good father the way things are going now...
(((GW))) I'm concerned for you today GW. How's your sleep? Eating, ability to go out and enjoy things... that kind of thing. Have you spoken with your IC lately?
W is open to C. The A with OM is winding down. Now is not the time to bail. If you need to take a couple of days away, do it. But don't act rashly now. Be patient, detach.
I've NEVER seen an A end on these boards with a clean break. There are ALWAYS several slips, more and less extreme. But W being open to C even after your snippy remarks is HUGE.
Rather than moping about what some OM says who W will come to despise in time says about YOU, take it as a challenge. BE the person you want to be in a healthy vibrant R. Be independent, Be confident, Be happy.
If you are finding it too damaging to be a doormat, don't be a doormat. Doormatting is always a bad idea. Set some boundaries. Stop doing things that hurt you. But try stepping back, detaching, giving W some space. She is emotionally going through a lot of what you have and she gets to combine that with shame for the A. She'll be all over the place. Don't take it personally.
P.S. It is FINE to say that for your own well-being, that family stuff needs to be separate (including Christmas) until at least OM is out of the picture, communication is stopped, and transparency is in place. But, that is boundary setting, not bailing. It is about what works for you.
The problem is that they are back in deep now. Multiple emails flying back and forth, professing their love. OM telling her she will never be happy with me and that he isn't going to move on with his life because he isn't sure she has the strength to carry thru with his. They are back in full flegged EA, not just recontact.
I gave her a ton of space over the last week...and this is the result. The more space she has, the more she and him go back and forth and what went wrong between them and how to make it right and what HE NEEDS from her. He is pushing her to make a strong statement for him
Sleep - not well of course. Eating - ok - I've lost an appetite, but I learned from last time to keep on eating. I don't have an IC yet. That was going to be today's project but I got consumed with all this.
I am ok.
Anxiety is high. But I am ok, really. Much better than the first bomb.
Yeah, and in the meantime she is all over the place. He is being demanding and needy. Now is the time to shine. Strong, confident, independent.
You don't know the future. Neither of you knows where W's head will be tomorrow or next week.
Be who you want to be, now. No R talk. Set healthy boundaries that are about YOU, not about controlling her.
I don't have an IC yet. That was going to be today's project but I got consumed with all this.
Glad to hear you're still eating, but concerned about your loss of appetite and sleep problems... I hope you can book in with your IC soon. Don't let this go, GW. Hugs.
Set healthy boundaries that are about YOU, not about controlling her
Isnt that what I would be doing...telling her we are either all in or we are all out. That I won't live in a M with 3 people which is exactly what we have right now. OM is in deep. EA is raging
GW, I totally agree with OT: the more they realize that the OP is NOT the solution to their problems, the more desperately they struggle to "prove" that they love, need, etc, this person. My H certainly did that more and more at the dying throes of their R. It was a last-ditch attempt to avoid the misery of withdrawal and beginning to come to terms with what he'd done.
I think it's extremely positive that your W realizes she needs counselling. However, it seems to me that you're not yet at the detached place you need to be to be able to rebuild your M. Keep working on becoming that confident person who can deal with whatever life throws him, who is secure in himself. No matter what happens with your M, you and your children can only benefit from your becoming the sort of man you most admire.
I am no longer detached, guilty as charged. That's what 3 months of good/productive piecing did to me...
I agree so much with Oldtimer.
I know you are in so much f'ing pain right now BUT, there are really positive signs here. She is freaking out. Going to mind-read your wife here for a minute... "Why doesn't OM want me anymore, what is wrong with me, if this counseling doesn't go well with my H, I have nothing left, I need to be needed by someone"
SCARED. She needs her crutch. She is willing to go to counseling. The EA is winding down, pressure, demands, reverse psychology (you should be with him, blah, f'ing blah!).
Get out of the house if you need to but don't make any decisions about your future unless you truly must.
Do NOT take it personally. I repeat, do NOT. It is about her and her crazy feelings. I agree, now is the time to shine, detach and act 'as if'...
I am just not sure, I'm not going to sugar coat it. She agreed once before to C, but that was just to fill a square and get me off her back. If you had read the crap I have between them the last 24 hours, no so sure...
There are "others" who are advisely me strongly, stand-up and call her bluff. Tell her either we are all in or we are all out.
We are certainly back to ground zero. PEA rush is high now. Its as if the affair never ended. Back to day 0.
And mentally and emotionally it is taking its toll.
I am playing it by ear for now...but it might all come to a head tonight.
I have been to hell and back and I don't won't to go there again. This is becoming a trauma. I have been the positive/upbeat/optimistic one for so, so long...
Please, please stop reading the crap. This is why people tell us not to read it.
I don't want you to go through hell again either. Can you step back for at least 48 hours? Is that possible?
I don't think this is like a trauma, it IS a trauma.
I am just not sure,
This is why you need to enact the 48 hr rule.
There are "others" who are advisely me strongly, stand-up and call her bluff.
It is your life you, this is an option...[/color]
We are certainly back to ground zero. PEA rush is high now. Its as if the affair never ended. Back to day 0.
Are you truly? Cuz I don't remember her being will to see a MC...
And mentally and emotionally it is taking its toll.
I know, it is obvious. You don't deserve this. BUT, I think you have come so far whether it feels like it right now or not.
"This is becoming a trauma. I have been the positive/upbeat/optimistic one for so, so long..."
No one is saying you should endure trauma. Detach. Man up. Fine. Set boundaries. But if you push for an answer or a commitment right now, you will get an answer you don't want. You'll also be acting out of pain and striking out. Wait until you are OK yourself, figure out your boundaries, and then set them.
Wait 48 hours. Then, if you must do something, do something that takes care of YOU and isn't about controlling W: "W, I'm not OK with making Christmas plans as a family while you are still involved with OM, thus I'll be making my own plans with the kids. I'd like to figure out a schedule so they can share time with us both."
You don't need to offer explanations, or argue, or anything. That is simply your very reasonable boundary.
If you aren't happy watching a movie with her, go out and watch a movie with a friend or by yourself. QUIT doing things that don't feel good, but find positive replacements.
She isn't there for you right now. Quit being more into the R than she is (this does not mean to start dating). Give her her space.
If you weren't married, would you marry her tomorrow? Don't expect for her to fully commit to a M she doesn't even know if she wants. She is open to C. That is enough for one month. Patience.
Ok - no talks tonight. Why...I am too tired, physically, mentally, emotionally. I am exhausted and was afraid if I said anything it would be reacting off of emotions/feelings and not have gone off well. So I wait. So it'll be at least 24 hours and i will re-evaluate tomorrow.
SANDI - hoping for some thoughts from you. I've got Puppy and Greek giving me advice...like you, they have been with me a long time.
Tonight she started off as a royal bi&*% but then snapped out of that. Said she had a long, tough day at work (she did, I confirmed with others and she told OM in email she had no time to write him back but that OM he "was the one, the plan, I never imagine being with anyone else. I just want to go back"
Then she snapped out of that mood and was more of her new normal and told me she just felt off all day. She asked casually if I had time to call any Cs today (which I didn't) so I said no and that is all that was said. My gut is telling me the C is her way of proving to me that our M will never work...
I was afraid his rejection of her was his way of pulling her back in, and it worked. Got to admit, I'm with the others who say to stop giving her rope.
To be more precise, if his rejection of her worked, I think your rejection has a good chance of working, too.
My gut is telling me the C is her way of proving to me that our M will never work...
So, why not make sure this won't be the case? You are the one between the two of you that has educated yourself on how this works.
My last attempt GW. I haven't 'been with you a long time' and it seems as though you might be looking for the answers you want to hear. Sorry. My tough love sent your way.
Evolve
Don't worry about not being with me for a long time. That isn't relevant. You actually know me and my sitch better than most. I do value your input as well as everyone else's. I am processing it all. I've received so many inputs yesterday it was almost too much...but that is good. In the end, I have to make this decision. Sorry, can't quite say where/how I got other inputs or risk getting banned from here. Some of the advice was good, some wasn't.
I am a person who trusts my gut. My gut is telling me that MC is square filling for her so she can say to me, the kids, and family/friends, look I tried. So...I am still debating whether I will go to MC with her with OM still in the middle of things. IC certainly...for both of us...but not sure about MC
I am not looking for the answers I want to hear, because that answer doesn't exist. That magic pill that takes away all the pain and makes W forget OM doesn't exist.
Evolve, I value our friendship, don't be afraid to speak your mind, I appreciate hearing from you and your thoughts
I hear that you are scared MC will be her way of justifying and you may be very correct.
It seems you have the financial resources to bring out the 'big guns' (Michelle, etc.). I would not go to a run-of-the-mill MC either. Especially with that feeling in my gut.
IC for you regardless. She can also use an IC for whatever her agenda is...
You must be exhausted. I am so proud of you for being able to give it 48 hours.
I am exhausted and I am looking for a good family therapist with experience in infedility.
They are still emailing back and forth. Reflecting on all this, I suspect W just wants to make through Xmas and try to build up courage for D. I also think that once again she might have to hit rock bottom to actually make a decision. A tough love approach is probably the only thing that might get her to that point. Waiting around and fillind her security need, while OM fills all other needs, and none of my needs are being met just doesn't work for me. I've lived that...I lived that from Nov - Jul.
Limbo land sucks. It drains you. I lived in limbo for a long time before. Now back in limbo for 3 more weeks. Its not healthy for me. I don't want to become damaged goods.
So, take yourself out of limbo:
"W, it doesn't work for me to do partner or family activities with you while you remain involved with OM. So, we need to make separate plans for the holidays, devise a childcare schedule to split duties, figure out a budget for each of us, and so on."
No need to doormat. Be a strong capable independent male. Let go, detach. By all means, go full steam ahead with the Last Resort Technique, it is pretty much where everyone who makes it to these boards should start:
MWD
Last Resort Technique strategies
Stop the chase
Do not initiate any contact (unless child-oriented)
Be friendly but brief if contacting
Be unpredictable
Be upbeat
Stop saying, “I love you”
Quit convincing spouse the marriage has been good or can get better
No relationship talk
No requests for reassurance
No resistance to negative comments
Get a life
There is more in the DB book, and also more on MWD blog here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/Basically, QUIT BEING A DOORMAT mooning and moping over wife.
Of course, if you are really prepared to divorce her NOW if she doesn't stop contact with OM, then sure, go for it: "W, I know you are involved with OM still. Unless this stops immediately and you are fully transparent, I will file for divorce tomorrow." But, you SHOULD NOT do this for effect, or to try to jolt her to reality. You SHOULD ONLY do this if you truly want to act swiftly if you don't get what you want. Given she is asking for IC and MC, the timing of this move is very questionable to me.
And, you should ONLY ever threaten divorce if you are content to lessen opportunities for reconciliation. Doing so WILL force her into a corner before she's ready to choose one, and as you will be doing the forcing, she's much more likely to go to the other corner.
I suspect W just wants to make through Xmas and try to build up courage for D.
You know this is mind-reading. I will just gently point it out... On a positive note, you could look at it as the gift of time.
A tough love approach is probably the only thing that might get her to that point.
Perhaps the LTR at the very least.
Its not healthy for me. I don't want to become damaged goods.
I know the feeling... were you in my IC session with me today?
The tough love I am referring too is basically the LRT.
Gift of time...hmmm...not sure on that one. Maybe.
Wish i were in an IC today...but I did make progress on that front...I talked to three of them today and one I liked.
Wish i were in an IC today...but I did make progress on that front...I talked to three of them today and one I liked.
Hi GW... Congrats for taking such a positive step for yourself. You deserve the support. Thinking good thoughts for you today.
LOL, I know 'gift of time' seems like code for 'pure hell'.
I'm with FMV. Great job on taking that step. I think it is the hardest. Shopping for an IC should be easier.
I'm here,GW. I started several times yesterday to post,then I would delete it. I take what I say to people very serious b/c these are lives we are dealing with on the board, so I sure don't want to lead you wrong. I know I encouraged you to stick it out until Christmas for the sake of the kids. But, now things have taken a servere turn in the road. If it were me, when I was thick into the mindset of a WAW in an EA....then this is what my H would need to do. I would need to be shocked out of my socks. I would needd to be shocked, and to be scared of what I was about to lose.
What does she fear losing the most? Is it the girls? If so, then how could you protect the girls and at the same time, hand your W's belongings to her in a trash sack?
If I get banned for saying this, then so be it. The only reason I was suggesting you wait it out--was for the kids, but I think you are spot on about her using the MC as her exit ticket. What would completely shock her senseless? I believe it would be for her calm,gentle H to give her her personal belongings in a bag, and tell her that you do not want to be M to anyone who would dishonor their M with lies and A's. You deserve better, and she needs to be told. GW, I am M to a man very much like you, and I'm telling you that we "will" take advantage of that kindness. I think she's proven that fact.
She needs to feel dumped by you. I think it should be done quickly. No talks or anything. You don't have to tell her what you know. Remember what Puppy use to say. "We both know you are lying". All you need to do is give her a stern look. You need to be very firm. I have this picture of you standing in the door handing her a bag with her clothes and then shutting the door while she's standing there speechless. I'm sure this will seem much to harsh for the mods, but that's how "this" WAW would need to be hit with cold reality.
She thinks that she is sacrificing to hang in until Christmas, and that's why I fully believe you need to make your move beforehand. I don't even know what to tell you about the children.
The most important thing,before you make any moves, is to have things planned out about the girls. Depending on when they are out for the holidays, etc., but many parents kidnapp their children when D is near. Be careful. The school would have to let her pick them up b/c she's their legal parent/guardian. Just wanted to alert you about that in case you chose to act while they were in school. I know it must be so hard to think of everything.
I don't know the laws there concerning child custody, etc., but if she could be concerned.....then she needs to be. That's what I think the WAW needs when in an EA and is ready to leave.
You have a big decision to make. We are here and will give you support whatever you do.
((hugs))
thanks Sandi. You are another true friend. Will digest this and get back with you.
I don't know where you are in the world GW, but I feel the cinder block on your chest.
Glad you got to see Sandi2's response before it potentially disappears...
Will say an extra prayer for you ((((GW))))
Gutwrenching-
I know I have not often posted on your thread, but I just wanted you to know that I have been following it for a while. Since finding out in June about my h, reading your thread has provided me with a lot of strength. And it is b/c of you and the way that you have handled yourself in all of this. I know what you are going through right now, as my sitch was similar - were reconciling and he was not able to break it off. I know that the next few months, years - whichever way things go- are going to be extremely difficult for you and your family. But the kind of person that you are shines through, many people have picked it up from reading your thread and commented on this. I am confident that because of this you are going to have wonderful things in your life. Take are rest, give yourself a break for awhile, put it in God's hands and know that somehow you are going to be ok. You can do this with her in the house if you want to keep everyone together for Christmas or you can do it without her in the house if this is the approach that you want to take. But give yourself a break from her for awhile. You are an amazing person and your life to come will be full of good things.
I'm sure you realize that if you choose the route I said would have been needed for me as a WAW, that she will turn to the OM.....out of sheer desparation, if nothing else. However, this places a great deal of pressure on him. She will discover just how much he is ready to take her in......or a ready-made family. At one time, you said he was long distance. After your transfer, is he any closer to where you are located?
I believe you need to think through all the scenarios you possibly can. For example, if she breaks down in sobbing tears and begs forgiveness and promises anything you want her to do to make the M work. Only problem, she did that the last time, didn't she?
What concerns me, and one reason I decided to give my opinion on this, is that her addiction to the A has drawn her back to OM again, and even if he rejects her, she could be a candidate for a serial cheater. That's why I think she needs something very tough.......very real......very shocking. You have the facts on your side. She doesn't know that you know. That is in your favor. Just don't let it slip how you know.
This is not a gimmick to get her back. It is very serious, and I believe you are looking at that with grave concern of the outcome, and most of all the effects on your children. I believe this is your last resort after the LRT. The only thing that is going to keep her there is either she cannot be trasferred where OM lives, finances, or being separated from the girls.
Lost-
Wow, thank you, that was the nicest thing someone has said to me in a while and it struck a cord with me today because of the spew I heard from W this morning (and for the record, I called her out on it, told her that look and comment, nastiest I've seen and heard in months and months was completely uncalled for, I asked a simple question).
I am a big believer in life in general, of looking back and analyzing things, figuring out what you could do better next time...and I guess I just tend to focus on all my screw ups and how I could have handled it better.
This is so sad. It was so good for a few months...that is what still haunts me and I still have trouble letting go of all the fear, I have let go of some, but not all.
I am asking God to help me, to give me strenght, clarity and direction. It is part of the reason I have held off from more of a Sandi like technique the last couple of days, because I am hoping He shows me the way clearly.
I am very sad that I don't think I can wait till Christmas. That is another reality I have had to deal with and face. This time of year means so much to me, I hate to do that to my girls, but I don't think there is any other way at this point.
Sandi -
You are the best. You are a great woman and incredible person.
Your advice is fairly close to others I know you remember and respect (Greek, Puppy, Lost Rabbit, and a few others). I so, so, so appreciate hearing from you, and you have been in my corner since day 1, about a year ago when I found this site.
I need to read your thoughts a couple more times. I am doing that this time. Reading peoples advice a few times and really digesting.
Thank you so much
I can't give you the right words for what I feel
Gutwrenching -
I know I'm going to get in trouble for saying this but I'm going to do it anyway.
Please WAIT for God's answer. He will answer you.
I'm not saying that Sandi's answer is wrong. It may be what God tells you to do but wait for God to tell you that. Please.
Don't put a time limit on God. He may answer you today or it may be after Christmas. If you don't hear from Him then His answer may be - do nothing.
The "world's" answers are so different from what God tells us to do. Read 1 Corin 7:12-16 and then pray about it again.
I know this hurts. "False starts"...It is part of the process. Praying and waiting is part of the process too.
GW - I think from what I have read that it's not just about you or the girls it's about what God wants you to do too.
I am not saying wait until after Christmas. I am saying wait until you have an answer from God. If he wants you to do what Sandi and these boards tell you to do God will tell you that. Trust Him!
Sandi –
What she fears
1) Security, especially financial. It is the one need that she cake eats from me. It is the one need that OM could care less about. I’ve even read it in person here recently…she is reaching out to him, telling him again about her fears of financial security, and he does nothing to reassure her that he will meet that need and she will be ok
2) The girls. Telling them, not living with them, etc.
GW
Sandi,
And I forgot to answer question about distance. OM lives in southern Texas, we live in DC area. ZERO chance of either one of them getting transferred somewhere together for a minimum of 18 months...
GW
I am asking God to help me, to give me strenght, clarity and direction. It is part of the reason I have held off from more of a Sandi like technique the last couple of days, because I am hoping He shows me the way clearly.
I am too,GW,I really am praying for that.
Thank you Sandi. You have certainly paid forward to me. I am working on a plan very similar to what you suggested. Your heart felt post was timely, I needed a little more nudging and today I am in pain as the shock has wore off. Working with the 3 whistles man himself...getting my ducks in a row. Thinking best time is Fri or Sat.
And they had better not ban you. You have given so much to so many here that are in so much pain
Well, you're very sweet for saying that.
I feel confident that the whistle man will give you the best he has to give. He may be a tough dog, but he has a very caring heart for people who are hurting. I am so glad he's helping you. I think it is a plus for anyone who has him in their corner.
Been thinking a lot about how things are going, especially how you are doing. Hope you can drop a line soone.
((hugs))
Sorry, been a crazy 24 hours cause I took the tough love approach. Lots that I could post, but no time right now. Short version, is I gave her an all in or all out, need a decision now. I took a while and a lot of debate but she said out because there was too much damage done and too much guilt when she looks at me. So I said start looking for somewhere to live in the morning.
Today was rough and she did find 8 places to look at...but now is starting to crack so we'll see. It is the girls and the fact that she is now realizing and admitting she needs professional help but won't be able to afford it on her own.
I calmly stated that she wasn't listening last night. I said end the A with OM and then we can talk about anything and what it will take to move forward or even tread water while you get help...but the A has to end.
That is the very short version.
((((GW)))) I'm sorry that I have no words of wisdom for you, other than to offer my support and prayers. Thinking of you today.
GW,
I would have done the same thing. You made the right decision, as painful as it was.
PB
Stay strong. No matter what, it is better to make a stand and get movement one way or another, than to stay in limbo forever.
She is cracking. Last night, she came up to get ready to go sleep on the couch, laid on the bed and cried in the fetal position for quite a while. When she was finally able to talk, she said she needs to see a C. She needs help, needs to figure out what is wrong and why she has always been this way, thinks back to all our her boyfriends and never had an emotional connection with anyone she has ever been, but now it is too late. She can't afford a C and she has to spend all of her free time looking for a place to live.
I calmly said W, I too want you to see someone. YOu are the mother of our wonderful children and for them and for you and for me, I want you to see someone, promise me you will. She said I can't, its too late.
I then said W, you weren't listening to me last night. I said END it with OM and we can talk about everything. Not contacting him is a good START, but I need to know it is ENDED. If you end it with OM, we can talk about slowly moving forward while you get some help and we can talk about options of staying a 2 income family.
She gave an honest reply: I have not contacted him since we talked and he hasn't contacted me. I can end this with him, I can promise you I will as I have done other times as you know, but then I end up reaching out to him and I have to figure out why. If not him, it will be someone else unless I get this right this time.
That was enough for one night. I said you know what the deal is, lets get some sleep.
This morning again she says, I want to talk to that lady you found. I said you know what the deal is, we can talk about it later at some point.
needs to figure out what is wrong and why she has always been this way, thinks back to all our her boyfriends and never had an emotional connection with anyone she has ever been
Do you think that is the problem? Did she have trouble connecting with you in the beginning?
This is what stands out to me; she tries to detour around the issue of A/OM and talk as if there is some other emotional problem with her. Maybe there is, but if so....would you have not seen it before OM came on the scene?
Listen GW, I think I know how she's feeling. I felt like I was "cracking" too. But she has to make that decision to end it with OM and no going back. If she calls off the A just long enough to see if things will work out with you...then rest assured, she'll keep OM waiting in the wings.
I'm wondereing why she hasn't contacted him. Isn't this what he wanted? Now she's free.....what's keeping her from running into his arm? Doesn't add up.
I know OM doesn't live close, so by "running into his arms",I meant emotionally. If he wants her bad enough.....shouldn't he be willing to help with her expenses? This is what she needs to see for herself. When all the games are over and OM is looking at what he'll really be facing, how much will he want her then?
I really think she is keeping us both on a string. I really think she is not capable of making this decision. The emotional connection, I don't know.
I do think she has issues that a good therapist needs to address...that has become obvious.
And she glued together some of her cracking.
OM is playing the same game...keeping her on a string while not willing to commit to anything because he doesn't belive she has it in her to leave
What was used to glue those pieces together? If it's too personal or long, don't feel that you have to answer.
You said something about OM keeping her on a string and not committing, and it caused me to think back to when I began to get my eyes open. I was told by the DB members that OM just wanted to push the EA to PA and he didn't care if it broke up my family to do it. They told me how he would carefully "word" things so that I couldn't say that he had promised any thing permanent. I started taking notice and discovered they were correct.
I remember the first time it really hit me hard. I had held back from moving out b/c I could not afford the expense on my own. He had told me he would help. I didn't want that, but it got bad enough that I was ready. So, when I told him that I needed some idea of what he could do toward expenses, then I was in for a let-down. It was such an "insult" to me. It was bad enough that I had reach that point of feeling like I was going to be a "kept woman", but when he told me the amount...that was almost brutal to me. When he saw me pulling out, then he said not to throw in the towell that he could do more. But...I had seen that side of him and it was the beginning of the tarnishing.
That's why I feel that if pressure is put on OM, he may do some back peddling.
Have you agreed to helping your W with any finances if she moves out?
I don't know what glued her pieces back together other than gaining some internal strenght.
OM will not agree to help her out financially. In fact, I have seen him use words that he cannot compete with my bank account.
OM will not make promise that he will be there for her but that he is there to listen and talk...but he won't tell her that he will wait around for her and he won't even discuss if he will see other women...says he is moving on with his life and if she is there in another 12-18 months and he is still there well then maybe they can have that dream life together
I have NOT agreed to helping out with finances. Not at all.
There is no doubt from what I have seen that OM wants to push this to PA.
M also told me last night, and she has never said this before, that she is not currently a good mother.
And she told me that if I moved out, she would ok with everything...I replied that is not an option.
And she says it would so much easier if I just treated her badly
OM will not make promise that he will be there for her but that he is there to listen and talk...but he won't tell her that he will wait around for her and he won't even discuss if he will see other women...says he is moving on with his life and if she is there in another 12-18 months and he is still there well then maybe they can have that dream life together
OMG, this is so much like what I was told......but I think in my case, I was not told so crudly. She is in for a world of hurt. He is drawing her a picture and she refuses to see it. He knows how to play this game. I'd dare say that she isn't the only woman he has dangling.
You know why she's saying that it would be easier if you left, don't you? That way, she can tell those close to her that "you" left the M. Stay strong. I believe you know where and when to be strong as steel....and soft as velvet.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if there is someone else he is dangling. When W and I were headed to S lat spring, and he was still M to his W and hadn't even told his W that he was going to leave, and he and my W were in the heights of the EA...he admitted to have a one weekend PA with yet another woman...
But it took almost 4-6 weeks after that for my W to see the light and realize that he was probably always going to be that way...
And then 3 months later, she forgets again...
I am trying to carefully/properly navigate between steel and velvet. I have relaxed into velvet at the moment because she is serious about seeing the FT I have picked out...she is going tomorrow and just a minute ago said she is going to talk to the FT about whether or not we both on this first visit or not. I really don't care. I know that is what the FT is going to push for though...
We are both going to the C tomorrow, together. This might be her escape clause in her mind, but I am praying that this one I picked out can work some magic.
We are both going to the C tomorrow, together. This might be her escape clause in her mind, but I am praying that this one I picked out can work some magic.
Thinking good thoughts for you GW. Stay focused on your goals, and let us know how things go tomorrow. (((GW)))
Hopefully, he will be experienced enough to catch on pretty fast as to what's going on with her. I'm glad it's not IC b/c I think she would get somebody to agree with her leaving.
In your past discussions with her, have you brought up about how this is like an addiction and that's why she wants him back--even knowing he's not what she needs?
I was just wondering. I remember when my H talked to me about it and I turned a deaf ear b/c I all that mattered was my next "fix".
Yes, Sandi. One time I brought up the addiction and explained it just a little. She was not receptive. Took as I thought she was sick or there was something wrong with her.
My W's sitch is such a textbook addiction from my perspective it is ridiculous. I mean the most recent emails between them was that everything has to stay "light" nothing serious because they are tired of all the fighting...and this is over a computer! All the fighting! So they strike things back up over email and 3-4 weeks later are fighting all the time...
It's like she's looking for some excuse that makes her turn to OM. I hope the C will at least get her to own the fact that it was her choice from her own free will. I could write about all the cr@p I had been through, also, but nobody or no thing forced me to have an EA.
The A will end.....no doubt about it. But as you said, so much damage may have been done by then. If she would see that he doesn't want to deal with any serious matters in her life...and realize that he's playing on her fantasy just for one reason.
I did not want to believe what was predicted about my OM, either. But as time went by, little by little, it became more visable.
Will be praying for both of you today.
Am very anxious to hear how things went today, but I've got to call it a night. Have had this M in my heart so much!
Will post more later.. 3 hours with the C yesterday. C said a lot of the right things, but I don't think any of it sinking in. Only hope is in her IC appt this weekend. C told her she has to end it with OM but W said she hasn't made that decision. W said she will never be free of the guilt, C said oh I can help you with that and get past that quickly. C told W that staying for the kids and the security were the right reasons to stay.
Bunch of other stuff, but with W still getting fix from OM, don't think we really got anywhere.
C pushed me hard to commit to staying together through Christmas. I said ok there, but still want to think about it. W is fogged out still and still in contact with OM.
Key points.
C told W she had to let the other R die if she was going to work on ours and working on ours would be easier than working on other R.
C told W that staying for the kids and security are the right reasons to stay and build upon.
C talked about the different stages of love and the brain chemicals released and all that, I even heard W use the word got a "Fix"
C had use do the LL test. Interesting touch wasn't W's #1 and I said so, but then W admitted that is just cause of where we are at right now, it is actually her primary LL and the C told us that we need to touch each other once or twice a day even with where we are at now to fill those needs.
I still think W is fogged out. She is still in contact with OM. She more or less admitted that in the C session but denies that it is any more than friendship at this point. I am praying the C can work a miracle and get thru to her, but my fear and gut are telling me that I'm just helping pay for the next man to have a more stable W than I've had...
Hang in there GW. Try not to let your fears get the best of you. I know you don't think you got anywhere with the C appt, but don't forget that it can take a few days after a C session for things to start making sense for a person. After my appts with my IC, I always feel like she's picked up my brain and shook it hard for a whole hour! - it takes some time for all those 'pieces' to settle into their new, better spots from which we can make better decisions. And don't forget - fears and gut feelings are often just beliefs; not facts.
Don't give up. This C sounds wonderful. If your W responds to C then there is a lot of hope. Even if she doesn't want to hear some things that the C says, if she likes her then that will be a plus.
Thanks for letting us hear from you.
Hi GW,
I noticed this on a previous post of yours:
C told W that staying for the kids and the security were the right reasons to stay
Thinking back in my sitch I wanted my W to come back for the right reasons.
Coming back for the kids sake or financial security was NOT on my list.
I wanted my W to come back b/c she stills loves me and wants a great R(M) with me.
Think about what you want in a R.
That's the reason you want to be with your W.
At this point I am just overwhelmed. Stress of holidays and round 2 of this at the exact same time it happened.
the first time the W came back it was because of what you said.
The C's point is interesting though...basically that working on this R is going to be easier and better in the long term than working on the other R with OM. That she has the ability to get the spark and feelings back between us.
I need to talk to the C alone. Figure out what she is really trying to do. See if she is working on breaking the addiction.
I also, having been down this road and the piecing road, recognize it all too well. The only reason she doesn't have feelings for me is because of the fogged out feelings for OM. Seen that one a few times now...
But...
I don't know how much I have left in me at this point...
I really don't. For a 1/2 a day I say I can this for a couple of weeks...then a few hours later, I say enough is enough.
But thanks for the words. I need to think about that, pray about that...
And now I guess I need to buy a couple of Xmas gifts for W. She feels same way. Last night she says you know I've gotten you nothing for Xmas yet...I said same here.
C did help us resolve Xmas plans and get W to finally listen to me and we are not travelling for Xmas now.
basically that working on this R is going to be easier and better in the long term than working on the other R with OM.
I agree with this.
I need to talk to the C alone. Figure out what she is really trying to do. See if she is working on breaking the addiction.
Good idea. Letting the C know some background info and what "needs" to be accomplished to save M is the right decision.
I know all about going back and forth to work on M.
Don't make any rash decisions when you are feeling emotional.
Thinking back in my sitch I wanted my W to come back for the right reasons.
Coming back for the kids sake or financial security was NOT on my list.
I wanted my W to come back b/c she stills loves me and wants a great R(M) with me.
Think about what you want in a R.
That's the reason you want to be with your W.
Having the W to stay in the M b/c she loves her H and wants to be with him is the ideal way, but it's not the logical way. Here me out, okay?
When I first came here I was in deep EA with OM. I knew what was "right" for me to do.....but it was not what I "wanted". If I had to wait until I felt those in-love feelings for my H.....it would not have happened. So yes, I made my decision based on what was right....not what I felt.
This has to be done in steps. She has decisionsto make and if she does the right thing.....then the feelings will come later.
This has to be done in steps. She has decisions to make and if she does the right thing.....then the feelings will come later.
Sandi I agree it has to be done in steps. That's why piecing is difficult and too many people rush into it.
Feelings can grow with each encounter. My W hasn't said anything about the M while we are "dating".
I believe the trust issue is being felt out by both parties. Building trust is the initial ingredient to repairing the R.
I'm currently in that stage. It has taken three months. My R with my W is steadily improving.
Looking back I didn't want her to come back just b/c of the kids. She didn't stay for that reason. The kids will grow and move away, then what?
I want to know she wants to spend time with me b/c of who I am.
Sorry to ramble. Yes I agree it only takes effort to start the healing process even though it may take time for the feelings to return.
Yes, I hear what you are saying. The LBH's here on the board have taught me so much about the pain they feel over the WAW in an A.
It's so hard for both people. So much awful, awful stuff to work through and to heal. I don't blame the H one bit for wanting his W to stay out of her love for him. If it were turned around...I KNOW that is how I would have been!
What I say is from my heart. I did not have any desire to be M, nor did I feel any good thing for my H at the time I was in the place that GW's W is in now. But, I had been raised right. I had been taught the right thing to do. I knew what I would be distroying and how many I would take down...if I left. So, with the help from the folks here...and the prayers of my loved one, I had the grit and grace to stay.
What happens when the children grow up and leave? It can be quite nice, acutally. By then, the couple can have a new lease on life...and devote more time to each other. My children were grown with families when I had an EA. I was so embarrassed to think I would do such a thing! But, those grown children and those grandbabies....are some of those "right" reasons I stayed here. Now, I thank God every day that I was given that chance! My H is a gem, but I had to learn to appreciate him, to respect him...and to love him again.
((hugs))
Thanks for your honest reply sandi.
I totally agree the "falling in love" feeling can happen IF given the chance.
TBH, I was totally checked out of my M over the summer. I accept my W's decision of not being with me. I was actively planning my life w/o her.
I was happy who I was and what I have learned from the boards.
Come to think of it, it was GW that told me~ I came here to these boards for the opportunity to save my M. I was given that chance that so many seek.
Honestly, if I hadn't heard these words written to me I could be D by now.
I was given the opportunity. I did not squader it.
So many people would kill to be in my shoes right now.
I am grateful for what I have.
(((hugs))) to you
Oh, so we can blame GW, huh?
I like that guy! I hope his W wakes up before he slips between her fingers.
Sandi
You are the probably the only reason that I would be willing to accept my W back for the kids and not for me. This summer I would not have and she said all the right things and was coming back for us...and well, we see how long that lasted!
I too hope she wakes up before its too late...too late creeps closer and closer...cause these days I have too many of those days where I say I can't take this any longer.
I am still amazed at the return of the fog. I can't get my mind wrapped around 4 weeks ago, even though she was starting to think about OM, she told me that I beat him hands down in every comparison other than that initial spark/connection...so no worries. And now...
Nothing significant to report from yesterday.
W has IC followed by a joint MC session on Sunday. Therapist said she was probably going to work this Sunday so if that worked for us, she would pencil us in. W later commented "C must think we are in real deep trouble if she is willing to see us on a Sunday"
W later commented "C must think we are in real deep trouble if she is willing to see us on a Sunday"
Amazing, isn't it?
I don't even know how to give advice on taking care of yourself during this ordeal. It seems like it would be next to impossible to detach while in C and preparing for the holidays. Your body may defend itself by causing numbness, so don't be too surprised and don't read anything into it.
Detaching is becoming increasingly difficult. I've got a good C who is basically saying tread water while I try to work on things, the holidays are coming up and its 10 days away and now that it looks like it'll be family holidays, I need to buy a couple things for my W, thing have become eerily reminiscient to the past...after the MC session we are extremely cordial and friendly and good friends again...though nothing much more...and she still has OM...so detaching...wow.
Last night I just kept trying to tell myself to quit thinking about anything I cannot control. That is probably the best I can do at this point.
I could see myself going numb. Part of me would actually welcome it. It might be a good defense mechanism right now.
Thanks again for all your words and thoughts
Just sticking my head in to see how you are holding up. Hope you are taking care of my buddy.
W has decided she wants to split...again...
Will fill in the blanks later when I have a little more time. But short version is after a 1.5 hour IC, she said she would work on M, I asked for NC, she said ok, I asked for transparency, she said no. I called her on it, and got her to admit she had made up her mind, just didn't want to ruin xmas for the kids.
Thanks for the update. I've been on pins & needles.
I think it is may take the S for her to finally be hit with the cold hard facts about her OM and just how badly he wants a long lasting R with her. Reality will start pulling her out of the fog and her fantasy.
Oh,I am so sorry this has happened, GW.
(((GW))) I'm so sorry for the turn of events, GW. Please take good care of yourself. Prayers and good thoughts to you.
GW-
Separation was the last thing that I wanted also. But it hasn't been as bad as I thought. You need a break away from all this. Try to enjoy your space from your wife as much as you can. Try to let her go as much as you can during this time that you are separated. Realize who she is at the moment, and that is not someone who adds anything to your life. Know that whatever way things turn out you will be ok and you will find happiness. She is the one making the biggest mistake, b/c unfortunately for her you will probably realize that you don't need her in your life, especially what she is bringing to the table right now. I was the most scared for my son. But he has been ok. Your kids will be ok too. I work with a lot of children whose parents are divorced, and not to say that it is not hard on them b/c I'm sure it is, but they are great and happy kids. I am sorry that you are going through this!
W has decided she wants to split...again...
Will fill in the blanks later when I have a little more time. But short version is after a 1.5 hour IC, she said she would work on M, I asked for NC, she said ok, I asked for transparency, she said no. I called her on it, and got her to admit she had made up her mind, just didn't want to ruin xmas for the kids.
She agreed to working on the M & NC and then said she wants to S after you called her out about no transparency? Just wanted to see if I had the order right.
I've been thinking about your family every day, GW. I pray that you will have the strength you need to carry you though. There are many here who are concerned and I hope you will let us know how you make it over the holidays.
((hugs))
Sandi,
You got it right...that is what happened. The C had no idea she was going to say that which tells me my W was not being completely honest about the attachment to the A and the OM. She said she would do no contact, and I said I need transparency because the only time you truly stopped contacting him was when I had transparency...and then she said no. And I said so, with that, I have to assume you are just stalling till after Xmas...and she said yes.
I will make it through Xmas. Almost there. I am detaching more than I ever have before. I am the most detached I have ever been. I still have a ways to go, but am over half way there. W drove by a couple of places last night that she is looking at...and it made my heart rate jump a little to hear, but no sadness, no anxiety, no thoughts on how to change that...in fact, I started to want the relief that I know will come with Separation.
W also asked if I thought she was being "ridiculous about wanting to Separate." I took my time, formulated my response and said: no. You know what you want. I sense a lot of the same things I sensed this summer when you wanted that. You are determined to get what you want, so no, I would not use the term ridiculous.
Thought it was a pretty good response. And it wasn't a game.
The longer this carries out and the more I detach and really look at who she has become (or maybe has been all long), the more it would take for me to take her back. She needs help. She isn't being honest with herself, much less the C. I deserve better. I am finally believing that.
Thank you for your prayers and thoughts.
Thanks for letting us hear from you.
I think the way you responded was perfect. She was checking in to make sure you still cared with that statement. I think she wants to know you still want to take her back if she can't make it on her own.
Sandi - I am doing just fine. I am detaching like never before. I am ready to be done with this. That might not be what people on these boards want to hear, but this time I am done. Strenght and honor as one wise man likes to say. I have given her more than enough chances, I've been hurt too many times, I can be happier alone than with her. So much damage has been done, its time to move on. Time to be happy and look forward to 2011. Time to face fear and act anyways. I can't keep on going like I have been for the last year. I gave it my best, I changed, but she hasn't. W has too many deep rooted issues that obviously she is unwilling or unable to face. It is an addiction but more than that.
So, I am now trying to get her out of the house. Time for her to move out. She is resisting, saying I should move out, but I am holding my ground. We have had discussions on how to financially handle things and we are getting close to an agreement.
I don't see how anyone could blame you for how you feel, nor could they say you didn't give it your all. I remember so well when you first arrived here, and I you have been through so much pain.
I feel like you are an old friend now, and I'm hoping that we can still hear from you (if it's not too painful)and let us know how you and the girls are doing. I believe you have so much wisdom to help others. But I certainly understand if you decide that you need to move on from the board.
Isn't it amazing how she is trying to stay in the house and get you to leave? Guess she thinks it will be better for the girls if she stays there and daddy is the one who moves out? You are a fair and respectable man, and you will do what is best for your children. She isn't being fair or responsible....not even very normal. She's in a very scary & selfish place right now. She's using the kids,but it's really herself she's thinking about. Her fantasy has every decision so clouded that when everything breaks and she finally sees what she's done.....it is going to be really bad for her....and maybe bad on the kids. You might want to consider some type of C for them later,if/when she gets too far out there.
Oh, just breaks my heart. So sorry for all of you. Hope you will let us know how things go, okay?
((hugs))
Thanks Sandi, you are a long time friend. For so long, I really believed we were going to be a success story. But the pain and the trauma have finally caught up with me. I don't see how I could set myself up for that again. This last go around might have been the toughest. I put so much into piecing only to feel like she spit in my face and now continues to lie/marginalize things. Hurts too bad to do it again. I am very scared about telling the kids, they are of course going to be crushed. But that will happen in the next few days.
Right now, I don't have the energy to give good advice to these boards...maybe a little later on, but not right now. I have to focus on continuing to detach
I owe you a ton. You helped me to a path to try to save the M and I thought we were close, but now I realize maybe not. If she was so unwilling/unable to communicate to me that there were still problems and what she needed while appearing to be committed...then were we really close? Not sure how I could trust a reconcilliation effort in the future? That is where I am at right now. I don't believe in D, but there are not any other real options at the moment from my perspective.
Oh I understand completely about you needing to focus on what are faced with right now. I was talking about later when you felt you could still come here. In a way, it could be like picking at a sore by coming here. I think it works differenly with individuals. My H would not cooperate in going to MC, so it was my therapy to continue on the board.
I can almost feel your dreaded news for the kids. Are you going to tell them or have her tell them in front of you?
If she was so unwilling/unable to communicate to me that there were still problems and what she needed while appearing to be committed...then were we really close? Not sure how I could trust a reconcilliation effort in the future?
I can only imagine how that mujst make you feel. I would think a lot of hurt, anger, disappointment....a lot tied together. I believe she meant to reconcile. When it all hit her and she was begging for another chance...I think she was serious and had good intentions at the time. But as the weeks passed by....she couldn't handle the pull of the EA. It is so unbelievable!
I was surfing the TV last night and got on the end of a program of how infidelity affects men. I wished I had heard the entire program. I have learned a lot from you men here on the board. When you are ready, others will learn a lot from you.
My prayers continue to be with you, GW. I will certainly be praying for the girls, also.
((hugs))
Just checking in with you GW... how are you managing?
I was doing real well and now I am just trying to get my mind around things. I let go completely, emotionally detached and she felt it. She got scared. Then we started talking about the S and reality starts creeping in. And we talk about seeing other people and it kills her.
W said she spent all day thinking about me with someone else and the girls liking a stepmom more than her.
She is a wreck again but not completely cracked. And I don't know exactly what to do at this point. I am trying to think it all through. She is talking about what it would take to work on things, if we have to S before we can work on things, etc. But I haven't heard the magic words yet...no contact/complete transparency. And I have to decide if I can believe her, trust her, and be willing for another round or not.
There was some reality in all this last night. With apologies and realization that she didn’t give the piecing enough time and she was selfish and needed help. She is suddenly afraid she is going to end up like her mother. She says she wishes she could go back and change some of her decisions and she says she took me for granted.
But…again…nothing about no contact/transparency
And I have to decide if I can believe her, trust her, and be willing for another round or not.
I think if there wasn't a part of you, deep inside, that was willing to try again, you'd have been long gone by now. My prayer for you is courage.
Sure would like to hear from you GW. I think about your stitch nearly every day.
Been a ton going on...some just too much to explain in terms of job opportunities/interviews. Had some tough decisions because some good job opportunities that I was assured would NOT happen if they knew of the M problems.
W has moved out. She has said she wants to "reconcile" but when push came to shove, she hasn't offered enough for me to willing to do that yet. She knows the key boundaries...no contact/transparency/MC/IC. I also told her to remember back to this summer and her words/actions/specifics and that since that only got us 3 months that it would take more than that to alleviate my fears of ending up in this same spot again...and right now, she hasn't offered more. She has agreed that the S needs to happen so that both of us can figure out what we want and know for certain. She said she needs to know for certain, no wondering, needs to know for sure where the grass is greener.
It has been tough. I have strong moments and weak moments. But still pressing ahead. D4 is already starting to act out. Both kids have now told my W that she shouldn't be living there, she should be here with dad and them...
At this point, I don't know what the future holds. I know I have not seen or heard enough. I know that I don't know if I have it in me to try again...and it is about the fear of being back in this same spot. Contact with OM has not ended...it is very minimal, according to her words, and backed up with the intel I can gather. Emails have almost stopped. A few texts that she admits too. She claims OM has shown his true colors and she wishes she had been stronger in Nov and never reached back out to him.
That is the short version.
Thank you for updating us, GW. I think of your family almost daily.
((hugs))
Thanks Sandi. You are incredible.
Things continue to twist and turn. W is showing a ton more sincerity/effort, she really wants to get back together and make the M work. It look like I will be getting a very tough job this summer that will involve a lot of work, stress hours. W has business trip to place about 2 hr drive from where OM lives...she said if we can decide to work on things and it would make me feel better, I can come along on trip...
Personally, I believe you're doing the right thing by holding her feet to the fire about OM. If she wants to make the M work....she will immediately tell OM to take a hike and she'll never speak his name again. But as long as she holds on to him...even by one little hair, then she's not serious enough about reconciling. I know you know all of this, but mostly saying it in case somebody new was to read this post.
I really admire how you have stuck to your guns, GW. I believe that has caused your W to have second thoughts about her decision. She may not tell you, but she admires this strength you have displayed and the fact you will not put up with her back & forth shenanigans.
If the two of you get back together....maybe this time it might be best to tell her you don't care to discuss her feelings about OM, as was done the first time.
I'm really sorry that you couldn't get that position you talked about based on M problems. Life sure is unfair at times. So, this job coming up in the summer...is this something you have no say about?
Sandi,
Sure you will interested to know that we are giving it a try again. W has met all criteria/boundaries, swears never again (of course have heard that before), knows that grass isn't greener on the other side. One of the final enlightments to her I guess was a phone conversation with OM where he was rattling off everything a man should be for his W and she said it hit her that the new me offers all that and she's not sure the OM really ever would and that what they had wasn't real.
My guard is still way up. It seems different this time because I have no fear...if things don't work out, this last time I truly figured out that I will be fine on my own...funny thing is I think W found out she hated it on her own...
I can tell you that W seems to really working at, as she would put it, not being selfish. She told me she realized she is good at expecting her needs to be met, but hasn't been as good at "giving" on her end to make sure my needs were being met.
One of the keys for me was her upcoming business trip to a location about 2 hours from OM. I told her, before agreeing to reconcile, that I was very nervous about trip and not sure I was comfortable with her going alone...so we decided that I would take a week of vaction time and go with her. That is probably the only way I wouldn't just be a wreck of nerves wondering...
Its been 2 or 3 months now...things still going well. I still have my doubts, radar still on high, but so far so good. W really putting the effort into it this time...
And I am in a different place, if it were to fall apart, I would just move on. That's what the separation did for me...took away a lot of the fear
Hi Gutwrenching,
Good to hear from here, and that things are going well. Sounds like your wife figured out what was important to her in life, and OM didn't offer it.
That's the best news I've heard in a long time! I'm not just speaking about the R, but in how
you have grown. I could not be more proud if you were my own son. I feel certain that you are going to be fine regardless of the MR. Wow, you have really changed since you first came to the board!
I think going with her on that trip is a wise decision. She needs you by her side for support.....and especially as a protector.
Gosh.......we need PDT's big whistles!
Hey Sandi - great to hear from you again. My life is just too darn busy these days to spend much time here. I am in the new/high profile job that is requiring lots of hours, but trying to continue to find the balance. W is doing her part too...she even said the other day how we have to make time for us, not just the kids, but with the new jobs, have to continue to find us time.
Its been 2 or 3 months now...things still going well. I still have my doubts, radar still on high, but so far so good. W really putting the effort into it this time...
Gut,
This is great to hear. What are you doing, specifically, to keep your "radar on high"? Do you have a full no-contact/transparency plan in place? Has she fought you on any of this?
Good deal on going on the business trip together!
Starsky