DB Friends,
I'm starting a new thread to reflect the start of a new phase. I've been working at being a better companion for my W this year. I've joined three dance performance teams with her, and joined a fitness club and have been taking exercise classes with her.
I've been reading the book "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Cloud for the past two months. The book has expanded my idea of what boundary-setting involves. The book also fits with my values of D as a last resort, rather than using it too early as a boundary tool. The book also fits with my values of holding onto compassion. I consider the book required reading for all who are on the Piecing forum, because these are fundamental skills that will move us from Piecing to maintenance. The book makes frequent reference to the bible, but does not attempt to preach religion. The advice is sound, no matter the source.
My W is now unemployed. Her dance friend of a year ago called her in another emotional crisis. She went to have dinner with him. She called me and said that he was in a poor emotional state and would spend the night with him. I asked her if he was suicidal, and she said he wouldn't stop crying. I didn't push the issue any further.
I thought about what I've been reading in Boundaries in Marriage. I thought about the importance of putting honesty into the M, with the intent of helping my W see how her decision may do harm to the M. I thought about that my intent is not to control her, but to influence her. I thought about it overnight, and wrote her an email this morning.
I wrote that she needed to be careful about reconnecting with him. I advised that overextending her own boundaries will not help someone who has their own boundary problems. I advised that simply spending time with a suffering person who continues in the same patterns, is not helping them.
This is obvious to me, but I don't think it is to her. I decided to write to her as my friend, who I want to help avoid getting manipulated into a relationship that will bring negativity into her life. She respects and listens to what I say and write. I like the advice in the book of being soft with the person but hit hard the issue.
We'll see what kind of response I get. We'll see if I can minimize her desire to rescue him or whatever she's being pulled into.
CL
I like the advice in the book of being soft with the person but hit hard the issue.
Your wife spent the night with another man alone and that's how hard you hit the issue? Can you really expect your wife to be attracted to you when you let her behave like this? She's emotionally bonding with this guy again. Your wife doesn't need a friend she needs a husband, husbands don't let their wives sleep over at other mens homes.
We'll see if I can minimize her desire to rescue him or whatever she's being pulled into.
She told you she wants to go rescue him. He is emotionally blackmailing your wife to get his needs met and you are a bystander.
A real boundary would have been, "I understand he is hurting and you want to help. I won't share my wife with another man, especially to spend the night. His problems are his problems it is not appropriate for you to get involved."
DB Friends,
I'm starting a new thread to reflect the start of a new phase. I've been working at being a better companion for my W this year. I've joined three dance performance teams with her, and joined a fitness club and have been taking exercise classes with her.
I've been reading the book "Boundaries in Marriage" by Henry Cloud for the past two months. The book has expanded my idea of what boundary-setting involves. The book also fits with my values of D as a last resort, rather than using it too early as a boundary tool. The book also fits with my values of holding onto compassion. I consider the book required reading for all who are on the Piecing forum, because these are fundamental skills that will move us from Piecing to maintenance. The book makes frequent reference to the bible, but does not attempt to preach religion. The advice is sound, no matter the source.
My W is now unemployed. Her dance friend of a year ago called her in another emotional crisis. She went to have dinner with him. She called me and said that he was in a poor emotional state and would spend the night with him. I asked her if he was suicidal, and she said he wouldn't stop crying. I didn't push the issue any further.
I thought about what I've been reading in Boundaries in Marriage. I thought about the importance of putting honesty into the M, with the intent of helping my W see how her decision may do harm to the M. I thought about that my intent is not to control her, but to influence her. I thought about it overnight, and wrote her an email this morning.
I wrote that she needed to be careful about reconnecting with him. I advised that overextending her own boundaries will not help someone who has their own boundary problems. I advised that simply spending time with a suffering person who continues in the same patterns, is not helping them.
This is obvious to me, but I don't think it is to her. I decided to write to her as my friend, who I want to help avoid getting manipulated into a relationship that will bring negativity into her life. She respects and listens to what I say and write. I like the advice in the book of being soft with the person but hit hard the issue.
We'll see what kind of response I get. We'll see if I can minimize her desire to rescue him or whatever she's being pulled into.
CL
You're being a FOOL. A weak, supplicating fool. NOT going to work.
Sorry.
Puppy
Coach,
I agree that he is being manipulative with my W, as I pointed out in the email to her. I will not be a bystander, and allow this behavior to continue without some response. You would have worded it differently. A real boundary is one that works, regardless of how it is acted or worded. We'll wait and see how she responds to my email. I like the way you worded your boundary, and may use a version of it in a future email.
I'm planning the words for my next email or conversation, so will consider your advice. At some point, I'll probably threaten going to an attorney. I believe in giving her every chance to cease the behavior--sleeping overnight or having him over. My guess is, I can get her to respect the boundaries--she has too much to lose.
My approach is to not focus on controlling her, to treat her with respect, and to focus on logical consequences to her behavior, and provide support to help resolve the problem.
CL
PDT,
Can you be more constructive and leave out the judgment? Your comment was best kept to yourself.
CL
CL,
I will not be a bystander, and allow this behavior to continue without some response.
But you did allow inappropiate behavior without any consequences being stated.
We'll wait and see how she responds to my email.
Doesn't matter she already stepped out.
and to focus on logical consequences to her behavior
Logic isn't going to work. Her feelings are guiding her, you need to lead. Your wife doesn't respect you. She sees you as weak - emotionally weak. Why would she be attracted to a man that would let his woman sleep with another man?
I can get her to respect the boundaries--she has too much to lose.
Really, she just walked all over you. She really wanted you to stand up and fight for her -that's why she called to tell you what she was doing. Being a Nice Guy won't work.
How long has thing been going on in your M?
PDT,
Can you be more constructive and leave out the judgment? Your comment was best kept to yourself.
CL
Sure. Good luck.
Puppy
Lanzo says that the incident Saturday night
(04/25/10) is a reality check. I agree. I will change my approach, but will probably fall short of the degree of boundary making needed. I'm new at this, so will probably fall short of what's needed at first.
As you predicted yourself, you are falling way short in the boundary making in your marriage.
A real boundary would have been, "I understand he is hurting and you want to help. I won't share my wife with another man, especially to spend the night. His problems are his problems it is not appropriate for you to get involved."
I agree with what coach is sayin here, this is an appropriate boundary.
Lanzo
Cl buddy,
I will not judge you becasue I am not "in your shoes"
And I am sorry I can not give you any constructive advice.
All I can say is..... Your wife spending the night was not right... and I FEEL a "In your face" full of dis respect for you.
if you have set any boundaies they are made of straw buddy
I would like to add to Lanzo's
A real boundary would have been, "I understand he is hurting and you want to help. I won't share my wife with another man, especially to spend the night. His problems are his problems it is not appropriate for you to get involved. Feel free to spend the night but if you do then plan on packing your things when you get home.
I AM SO SORRY
Doc
I'm not really qualified to give any advice nor do I mean to be judgemental. Honestly however, reading this made me think this:
If someone was stabbing me with a knife, I wouldn't be writing him/her an email sharing honestly how the bodily intrusion of a sharp foreign object into important parts of my physical body is likely to cause me serious harm.
Sorry. Based on your words I sense a deep rooted fear, and vacillation. Weakness on this scale is seldom rewarded wit hrespect. Just an honest opinion.
Coach,
It is true that I didn't impose or warn of any consequences. I agree that being a nice guy won't work. I do however believe in the Boundaries in Marriage advice of grace and truth. I did (thanks to the influence of advice on my thread) call her when I got home from work.
I told her that I was upset about her behavior the night before, and that I thought it was disrespectful and manipulative for her friend to have her spend the night. She said that he was suicidal. She said that he is in the process of moving out-of-state within a week. She said that she would no longer spend the night there, if that's what I wanted.
CL
Lanzo,
I left work naturally upset about things, thinking that the email was not adequate. She wasn't home, so I called her on her cell phone and left her a message that I was upset about last night. She called back immediately and asked what was wrong. I told her that her friend's emotional state doesn't justify poor boundaries on his part. I explained that if I had a lady friend in emotional distress, I wouldn't invite her to our place to spend the night. She said that she wouldn't spend the night again with him, if that's what I wanted. I left it at that, and proceeded on to our dance practice at the studio.
CL
She called me and said that he was in a poor emotional state and would spend the night with him. I asked her if he was suicidal, and she said he wouldn't stop crying. I didn't push the issue any further.
So because he is sad, your wife gets to have sex with him?
He manipulated your wife into his lair and you allowed it. This guy is the lowest of low. He is not even going about stealing another mans woman by being manly! He is doing it by crying, and it's working!!! If I was Elvis I would have shot my computer monitor when I read this.
She can call you on the phone and in a matter of fact way tell you she is sleeping over at another man's house???
How is it that she can even have the guts to consider asking this much less TELL you this is what she is going to to.
What is wrong with, Mrs CL, you are my wife, not his, please respect me as such, and be home a reasonable hour.
...Or if he is in such a sad state the he requires overnight supervision, let's call professional help.
...Or, wow, that sounds bad, I'll be over in 30 minutes to help you out.
...Or, Mr CryBaby, I don't care how sad you are, mess with my wife and see how much more sad you are with my foot in your a$$
I have been with you for a long time, you seem like a kind and gentle man, but come on, an email after the fact is no boundary nor consequence. What do you fear that you cannot stand up to this woman.
I firmly believe that an actual stand and some passion on your part will do more for her attraction to you and more for your self esteem than all the book reading and email writing you have done in the last year.
Sure it will be scary as h@ll but will do so much for you. What holds you back?
Doc,
If it happens again, there will need to be at least a warning or a consequence. The boundary will have to progressive. She knows where I stand on this, and she has agreed to comply. I will give her an opportunity to keep her word. It appears that she is overextending her boundaries as a helper, for whatever reason.
CL
CL, there seems to have been a flurry of activity while I was composing my above response to your thread.
Congratulations on standing up to her and calling her to tell her what happened was not acceptable.
Double congratulations on her acknowledging and respecting your point of view.
My personal opinion is you still need to be stronger as an individual and therefore stronger with her but that said, your objective was accomplished. I am happy for you. I read this as a step forward.
...The warning needs to happen BEFORE it happens again. The consequence simply needs to happen.
DNO,
I agree that there needs to be a consequence the next time there is sleeping elsewhere behavior (with anyone). I didn't give a verbal warning on the phone, but I think one is implied. I haven't decided, but I think the next offense will result in a call to an attorney to see what my options are. She will be advised at that time that I am contacting an attorney to explore my options in how to resolve this problem.
CL
I didn't give a verbal warning on the phone, but I think one is implied. I haven't decided, but I think the next offense will result in a call to an attorney to see what my options are.
CL,
I think you should have already advised your W that there will be no further offenses of this nature tolerated, make it a statement of fact with no ambiguities. (Remember your wake up call).
If you think there is a slightest possibility of your W continuing with this kind of behavior you should already be consulting your attorney to see what your options are.
CL, unless you toughen or change tact as you keep promising to, your W will continue to "poop in your lunch box and convince you it’s a chocolate bar" and more worrying I think you’ll continue to accept it.
There’s still time to change things but it all up to you.
Take care
Lanzo
I told her that her friend's emotional state doesn't justify poor boundaries on his part. I explained that if I had a lady friend in emotional distress, I wouldn't invite her to our place to spend the night. She said that she wouldn't spend the night again with him, if that's what I wanted.
CL
GREAT CL NOW STICK TO IT....
Doc
DB Friends,
The thorn in my side depressed person that my W worries about is moving out of town this week, about 600 miles away. He gave my W a piece of furniture, and dropped it off last night. It does look nice in our dance practice area. I hope our goodbyes represented that we all need to move on with our lives--my W and I together, and he as a functioning adult. My W says that he reminds her of how not to be in life, which helps to correct her.
I've been worrying about my W's coughing, so in the spirit of goodwill and honesty, I sent an email reminding her that the fitness facility we've joined offers acupuncture as a service. I think with her issues of anxiety, smoking, fatigue, insomnia and other ailments might benefit from it. I'm simply trying to get her to move more into healthy patterns. If I don't hear from her, I'll wait for an opportunity to discuss it in person, or send another email maybe a month from now. I consider it my responsibility to try to influence her to move into healthier ways of living.
Our dance teacher would like for us to perform a Salsa solo at the convention we're going to this fall. He complimented us on our work ethic. We continue to impress him on how quickly we pick up choreography. I agreed to it--my W has some hesitation. We chose the song we''d like to do, and will share it with our teacher. We both have been dancing Salsa for over five years. We would put familiar combinations in the routine, and the teacher would teach us some crowd pleasers.
She was considering going over to her "friend's" house to help him pack. I asked her what time she would be home (different behavior). She seemed confused by the question. I didn't pursue it. I ended-up offering to drive her to a weeknight dance venue, where I knew a trusted friend would drive her home.
CL
"The thorn in my side depressed person that my W worries about is moving out of town this week, about 600 miles away."
THIS IS GREAT CL... BUT..... remember My wife's OM lived two states away...Just a few hour plane ride... That is what happened to me.
Doc,
I think the advice you got on your thread is true--strong, positive, leadership is the mindset you and I must have. This means we Act As If in spite of feelings of ambivalence, mistrust, and anger. In my case I need to learn to have my W experience the "whip of reality" if she crosses any major boundaries. Until that happens, keep my mind and actions focused on building a stronger M and tame the fear, doubt, and anger.
CL
Doc and DB Friends,
I know that I can't simply rest and think that all will be well. I think my W is still vulnerable into lapsing into old patterns. I will need to do my part to help prevent these problems from re-occurring. I also know that I can't police her 24/7. I am prepared to call an attorney if a major violation occurs again.
I'll do my best to keep her busy with positive activity, especially since she is unemployed. Having a pool to go to is different for us. It has a relaxing effect on her. On nights when we don't have an activity planned, I've been suggesting we go for an hour, and break-up the evening. I've been telling her that she is looking more tone since we've been attending the exercise classes (she does). I know physical intimacy will have to be addressed at some point. I need to change some avoidance patterns.
I like the frame of positive leadership as mentioned on Doc's thread. I think this captures well the role of those of us in Piecing--moving our spouse's and M forward, in spite of distressing thoughts and feelings.
CL
DB Friends,
The thorn in my side depressed person that my W worries about is moving out of town this week, about 600 miles away.
The distance may be a false sense of security.
He gave my W a piece of furniture, and dropped it off last night. It does look nice in our dance practice area.
I would not accept any items from the friend that may serve as reminders.
She was considering going over to her "friend's" house to help him pack. I asked her what time she would be home (different behavior).
What happened to your boundaries?!?! The boundary should be no contact, physical or otherwise ever again, and you simply asked when she would be home?? No wonder she gave you a strange look.
Also, the threat of going to an attorney to discuss options is fairly empty. You already know what your options are regarding an attorney. An attorney will may suggest you work through your issues with some councelling, file for a legal separation or file for divorce. Pretty cut an dry. The tough question is are you willing to take that drastic step if she crosses a particular boundary.
HFF,
I disagree. Have you read "Boundaries in Marriage?" The spirit of the book of the book is to move the M forward, not control the other person, or get into power struggles.
I'm going to set boundaries over undisputed major boundary violations--spending the night at the OP's place, or taking a vacation with him. Having a tantrum over furniture items or her talking on the phone with him, or dancing with him, or helping him move is not where I want to put my energy. I don't like it, but don't consider these major boundary violations.
The threat of contacting an attorney is a wake-up call to my W to cease and desist--a reality check that my mindset is to consider separation or D.
It's confusing because the connection has been so good these past few months. She does not speak highly of the OP, but has a compassion for him and wishes him well. If the positives were not in place, I might be walking to the attorney more quickly. It's not an easy judgment call on this side of the fence.
I think I'll know when it's time to fire the next warning shot. It's not yet time IMO.
CL
HFF,
I'm going to set boundaries over undisputed major boundary violations--spending the night at the OP's place, or taking a vacation with him. Having a tantrum over furniture items or her talking on the phone with him, or dancing with him, or helping him move is not where I want to put my energy. I don't like it, but don't consider these major boundary violations.
CL
CL,
You and I both need to work on ourselves… WE both need do become positive leaders..I have not read your book but I have to agree with you about setting the bounders up.
You and I are walking a thin line, I know both of us are better off than we were two years ago but I also know that even right now with my W telling me the OM is nothing to worry about.. If I said I do not want her to ever talk to him again... The negotiations would be over. Kind of like telling a kid they can’t have something makes them want it more… Or just doing something because you want to show someone they (us) can’t tell you what to do. (Even though they would normally not do it anyway.)
NO MORE spending the night at the OP's place or taking a vacation with him... I would also throw in no going dancing with him without YOU present... Although if he IS moving this should not be an Issue.
Good luck buddy... Tonight is the last night of my father / son Vacation… Tomorrow night I will not be sleeping alone for the first time in two years……..not sure what I am coming “home” to...
Doc,
I see that you get the difference between boundary setting and trying to control. I think that if I try to tell her who she can't dance with, it's going to do more harm than good. My plan is to limit the amount of time she's out dancing alone, to minimize the potential for trouble.
I know I can't police my way thru a M, but relapse into old pattens is still likely while we're in the Piecing phase. My mistake in the past was giving her too much freedom to be in the dance community alone. Temptation can work it's magic on any of us. The truth is I used her dancing as a babysitter to give myself some free time, when I needed to push myself and be there with her. I now think more in terms of being a couple.
Last night my W wanted to go to the dance venue to say goodbye to the OP. I decided to go with the idea of intervening if he attempted to lure her to his place. She wanted to drive separately, which was curious.
I went and had a nice time. I let them dance together quite often. I made sure to dance several times with my W. They looked more like a couple than we did. I was cordial to him, and wished him good luck. I stayed very late, until she decided it was time to go. The OP went home. My W verified that she was going home. She did come home.
When she came to bed, I put my arm around her. She took it off. I'll try again another night.
CL
Found you again, CL, and catching up.
They looked more like a couple than we did.
In what way?
Matilda,
Physical proximity.
I went out dancing with my W for a third night in a row (she was itching to get out). I've decided to think more like a partner and go with her, even if I'd rather sleep. I ended-up having a good time, and got some good practice in. The compromise was that we stayed in town, even though she wanted to travel an hour away.
The issue of vacation is on the table again. I believe that our dance trip to Florida counts as a vacation. She wants another trip to Puerto Rico. She started threatening last night to find a travel partner to go with. I spoke up and told her "only if it's a female." I wrote her an email when I woke up today, and put the vacation negotiations back on the table. I think she's willing to do a budget trip--rooms versus hotels.
I've been getting irritable about the dance performance teams, as our expectations get higher, and I try to incorporate specific skills. My W has threatened to walk out on our practices. Our dance teacher observes that "I'm deceptively strong." The lady dance teacher observes that I get so focused on details, that I put too much intensity into certain aspects, and need to tone it down. He also wants me to work on having more presence with my body. So much to work on, and areas to grow into.
CL
Very good Cl,
Yes going with her was a great Idea. Wanting to drive herself? Well it sounds like she might have wanted to leave her "options". Open.
Being there was the RIGHT thing for you to do. I can almost guarantee that she would NOT have come home if you were not there. As for her taking your arm off of her? Well remember our wives sometimes try to blame us for their issues. Deep down inside she may have felt that this was "their last night" and you went and ruined it. NOT that you should not have...but do you understand what I am trying to say. I feel weird giving YOU advise when my sitch is not so much better. It is kind of like a drug addict telling another drug addict how to quit.
WE ARE GETTING THERE BUDDY…
Remember there IS also a fine line between being there for our wives and giving them space. Yesterday when Son and I got home from vacation. We had bought my mom, MIL and wife presents. Son wanted to go bring MIL hers and wife said she would take him. I kind of wanted to go but I knew W was “uncomfortable” with our soon to be sleeping situation. I also knew that W would probably have a drink with her mom while over there. So I gave her that alone, get ready, have a drink to relax time and I stayed home.
If your wife wants to go shopping by herself no problem or just go out for a ride or to see her GIRL friends that is great. But analyze each situation and if there is any chance of temptation…BE THERE for her and yourself.
Got ta go fix MIL garage door opener and finish up some homework I did not get done during “vacation”
Take care.
P.S You really need to get out to California one of these days so we can have a beer.
Doc
• P.S.S “They looked more like a couple than we did” REALLY? Or was this just YOUR self esteem, YOUR self worth, YOUR issue kicking in. FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF…He may have been dancing with her when you thought this but she came home to YOU…
Doc,
A recovering drug addict is helpful to another recovering drug addict, so don't hold back your advice.
It was the right thing to do to protect my M, and assist my W in maintaining boundaries, and showing my presence to the OP. I didn't have to say a word to either of them--my presence was enough of an influence.
My W has noticed that I too have become a late night dancer. I used to have all these rules about not going out late at night. I've decided that I need to have a presence and be a dance partner with my W. The reality is that if I let her have too much freedom, I'm communicating that she isn't enough of a priority to be with, and leave her vulnerable to temptation. I don't want to make the same mistakes.
CL
"It was the right thing to do to protect my M, and assist my W in maintaining boundaries, and showing my presence to the OP. I didn't have to say a word to either of them--my presence was enough of an influence"
YES I THINK YOU HAVE IT......Actions DO speak louder than words......
As for Doing things you really do not feel like doing for someone… Isn’t that called Love?
I've started reading Deepak Chopra's book on "The Third Jesus." I need to keep reading religion books to counter anger, resentment, mistrust, doubt, and fear. I'm reading about the teaching of not resisting evil. My going to the dance club over the weekend when I knew the OP would be there is an example of this.
My issues and patterns reveal themselves in dance practice and lessons. The teacher (a confident young man of 27, with a great-looking girlfriend) is honest with me about how passive and small my dancing looks. I'm great with technique, but need to improve with body styling and expressiveness. This is where I need to stretch and grow.
During the lesson, he comes up to me and sculpts my body in the way it needs to be to reflect the mood of the dance and music. I've never held my body in such a manner, and it feels great, though awkward. When I practice it with my W at home, it feels awkward yet liberating. The teacher said that my W and I have a good work ethic, so he seems motivated to work with us.
I think about why in the past I didn't enforce boundaries with my W. I think it's because that I felt that I needed to make significant improvements as a H and person, and wanted to see if that would make a difference. I'm at the point where I feel like I'm invested enough as a H, confident enough as a man to be on my own if needed, and that other than physical intimacy as a problem to address, my W has a good H and M. This is the year where I believe that I deserve better than what I've had.
CL
Doc, Matilda, and DB Friends,
I'm fighting the urge to be passive-aggressive (old patterns). Difficult memories that have happened in the M keep popping in my head. I'm going to try and turn them into poems. I'll keep reading my religion book.
My W went to a routine eye exam this week. The optometrist discovered a tear in her eye. She got in to see a specialist the next day, to confirm it. The plan is to hope that it heals itself and follow-up in one month. If it worsens, she would be permanently blind. She's fortunate that this was caught in time. Fortunately, she has no activity restrictions.
She keeps percolating about a Puerto Rico trip but hasn't pursued it. I'll let her percolate, and stay out of the way.
CL
DB Friends,
Today is our anniversary--17 years. We're in a much better place than last year's estrangement and the intrusion of the OP, who has moved 600 miles away. My mind is a tangled web of thoughts and emotions, but I'll keep up the Act As If I'm a H approach. This means saying and doing whatever is needed to move us forward.
I bought my W a card today. It's a humorous card that talks about the realities of married life, and a willingness to stay committed in spite of it. Some of the lines are:
We've some GOOD behavior (and of course we've seen some BAD)
We've seen the WORST We've seen the BEST
And like we always knew: No matter what life's UPS and DOWNS...
We'll see each other through
My W has trouble putting structure into her day, now that she's uemployed. She can go an entire day without eating or leaving the home. I came home from work yesterday, and she was in front of the computer, complaining about being depressed. I suggested we take advantage of the summer heat and our fitness club membership and go the pool. We went, and as expected, it cheered her up.
CL
Happy belated anniversary, CL. Did you go out to dinner to celebrate? What did your wife think of the card? I am not on the computer as much since I don't have a computer at home, but I do want to keep up with your thread. It sounds like you are getting better about setting boundaries (like telling your wife she needs to have a female travel partner if she decides to go that way). I hope you can have a joint trip. Even if it's low key/low budget. Being together is critical to keep you moving forward I believe.
Happy belated anniversary from me too..
Hey CL Mine was thrusday... Have you read my post?
Doc
Matilda and Doc,
My W acknowledged the card and apologized for forgetting the date of our anniversary. I chose not to make an issue of it. I hope she takes the time to read the card with greater care at some point, when she has a moment.
She talks about our improved quality of life. She is referring to the dance lessons, dance outings, dance practice, dance performance teams, fitness center with a pool. She said that she is looking forward to having a pool in the winter. Swimming is her favorite form of exercise and stress management.
She wants to join the studio for a weekend getaway in August that we both think is not a good value. I'm hoping she'll change her mind, but if not, will engage her in a discussion of how it will be paid for, so that it doesn't fall on my shoulders. A Puerto Rico trip is also being negotiated.
CL
Matilda,
My W found an inexpensive flight to Puerto Rico and did some research regarding the weather there. August is a rainy month there, so I agreed to go in September. I think not having the trip scheduled is keeping my W from job-hunting. She's fearful that she would lose the trip, if she started a new job. I found a week in September that I thought would not conflict with our dance trip to Florida and commitment to the dance teams, so told my W to go ahead and book the flight.
I'll probably also agree to the dance weekend in August with our studio, even though I think it's not a good value. We'll also have the dance convention in late September in Florida.
CL
Oh CL! Big hugs to you! I've learned so much from you... a while back you told me about the importance of being able to forgive before beginning piecing (which was immensely helpful), and now reading this post gave me a perfectly wonderful idea to help resolve one of the long-standing issues contributing to the disconnect between H and I. Thank you so much! Keep up the great posts - I enjoy hearing about your progress with your W. And Peurto Rico - how wonderful - I hope it brings you many bonding moments. (sorry I don't mean to interrupt your post - just wanted to extend my thanks and to let you know what a difference you've made in my life!) Hugs!
We booked a flight to Puerto Rico for September 13. My W did a great job of finding a studio condo on the beach for a great price. I also agreed to the dance weekend with our studio for August 21-22.
My W is talking about having a family meeting (the dog too?) to discuss cleaining expectations in the common areas. That seems like a constructive idea, so will listen to what she has to say, when it occurs.
My W got drunk at a weekend studio Salsa party. I think she drank too much on an empty stomach. We had to pull over on the side of the road, while she threw-up. I didn't get upset about it, and was mildly embarrassed at the dance. I figured the natural consequences were harsh enough. The instructor told me that she thinks my W is a free spirit, and is crazy but with a big heart. A lady I danced with, noticed that my W and I were "back together." I guess a relationship shows its problems to the public to some extent. I replied that "I guess we are back together" and left it at that.
I signed-up for swimming lessons, and will likely begin in the next week. I want to get more comfortable in the water by our beach vacation. My W has been giving me some tips, when we go to the pool.
We've been spending a lot of time together--dance lessons and practice, exercise classes, dance venues, and restaurant. It goes well for the most part. Conflict occurs mainly around household cleaning standards.
CL
The household cleaning issue came to a head last night. My W kicked me out of the bedroom. After trying to sleep there, I heard my W stirring in her computer room, so I got up to face the music.
She kept trying to tell me what she wanted in a vague way--that I'm supposed to take the initiative as she would and meet her standards. In her mind, the problem is my lack of initiative and effort. In my mind, the problem is her lack of communiction in clearly telling me what her cleaning expectations are. She is to draft a list of household expectations. Her standards seem to increase when she is under stress, and the unemployment probably plays a factor, as she is there a great deal of time.
I was willing to lose some sleep, and stayed-up to clean the kitchen and bathroom for her. This seemed to ease her anxiety. I still slept in the guest room. I need to make sure that I commit to trying to meet to her cleaning expectations, as she wants to feel like she has a partner on this issue.
She's also upset with me because she asked me to schedule a fitness assessment at our center, and I did it only for her. She had asked that we do it back to back. I underestimeated, how much she wanted to partner on this. I'm feeling like I have limited time with dance lessons and now adding swim lessons. My lack of communication created this problem. I fell back into old habits on this one.
She's also upset with me because I ate her carryout leftover. I thought we operated under a 24 hour rule (after 24 hours, it's mine). I guess she had her mind set on this entree. She was angry when it wasn't available. The 24 hour rule has now been replaced with asking permission each time.
CL
You two have a unique arrangement!!! CL, just tell you wife that you failed Mind Reading 101. Since she is unemployed why doesn't she "step up" and do more to meet her own expectations??? I just feel you are the one always bending for her.
I was just talking to my ex yesterday and we talked about my poor housekeeping skills. He now has a girlfriend who keeps her house like a museum. He doesn't like that as much as he thought he would. Life is strange! Grass is not greener on the other side.
Good luck and the trips sounds great.
Cl, what can I say !!!. Other than you two have to be the oddest couple but as my mother would say you don't spoil another couple.
Matilda is right why on earth is she not doing the housekeeping, for goodness sake, time to man up CL.
Your wife doesn't want a husband she wants a performing seal and once again you step up and be one.
There is just the two of you and a dog, that has to be removed or whatever you do with her when wifee throws a paddy.
I had 3 children under 5 and assorted animals, looked after all of them and my business often away husband, washed cleaned arranged and cooked dinner parties etc, etc.
This woman is beyond spoiled, and you just keep jumping as high as she demands.
You must know all about learned behaviour, even training animals.
Do not leave the master bedroom.
Remind me what you are trying to restore ?? a marriage, did you ever have one.
I thought I was beginning to see a glimmer of hope for you two, even given that no way do I understand either of you and it is not my place to judge but time and time again the talk has been of boundaries and it never happens when it really matters.
I think I understand that you cannot cope with confrontation face to face and problems get sorted through emails , but it has to be now or never or else what happens from here on it will be what you deserve. OR what subconciously you think you deserve.
Part of these new demands is because your wife has too much time on her hands and also lost her "playmate"
I hope you will find the strength and courage you need to stand up to her or throw her out.She has some sort of power over you, the take away thing is something my teens would have fought over and I would have stepped in and put it all in the bin and told them to grow up.
Sorry I said too much, I hate to see you trampled under foot.
Naej and Matilda,
My W and her mother do housecleaning and organizing weekly for several hours. I think she has a right to ask me to partner on the housecleaning. She also wants to get out of the role of reminding me to do my share. My response was one of validating her concerns. I told her I would do small cleaning tasks on a regular basis (about an hour per week). I think that would be reasonable. We're not talking Cinderella here.
I'm not trying to restore a M, as it was dysfunctional. I'm trying to improve myself in areas I need to, and am prepared to address major boundary violations. I'm seeing if I can move into being better partner. If I do this, I feel that I've made a good effort, even if it fails.
I've learned that the way to approach her when she has a complaint is to validate, and come up with a proposed solution as quickly as possible. I control the solution, and will determine how high the hoop is. We'll see if my approach gets her to back off on the nagging.
She has what are seemingly some OCD patterns, and overwhelms herself with details (the princess and the pea). The less she has to monitor me, the less stress she will have. The less she has in her life that is not being managed, the less stress she will have.
We don't have a M yet, but hopefully both are growing into one. We have more connection than roommates, and probably qualify as friends.
CL
She's also upset with me because I ate her carryout leftover. I thought we operated under a 24 hour rule (after 24 hours, it's mine). I guess she had her mind set on this entree. She was angry when it wasn't available. The 24 hour rule has now been replaced with asking permission each time.
CL
Cl Buddy,
You don’t even want to hear my opinion on the house cleaning. YOU are the one working outside the house right? Let’s see who has more time……
Anyway you do what works for you.
BUT….. As for the left over’s…..Left over’s from a previous dinner at home are open game... BUT even I know the left over’s from a night out belong to whoever ordered it guy... WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? Yes if I see it sitting in the frig I will ask W if she was going to eat if and if not CAN I HAVE IT….
Not sure on your financial status but wife has no paid employment I gather so whose money pays for takeaway food? and why when she has all day does she need to buy ready made foods, specially when she is planning all these trips.
How much mess can 2 people make, you are out all day at work.
Maybe you can employ her to keep your house clean. Weird.especially when her mother helps.
CL I fail to see how you are in control, but its your life.
Just let her eat all the left over food, its a health risk anyway.
I guarentee when this is sorted she will come up with another complaint.
Is your job flexible or demanding,in terms of free time who has the most. By all means do your own cleaning up after yourself, but I wonder what she actually contributes to this friends/marriage partnership.
I still get the feeling she has power over you and you are afraid of something so deep rooted that you do not allow it to surface.
Anyway as you can see improvements and feel in control and this issue has been validated and sorted, I wish you well.
Doc,
I'll take my lumps for the poor judgment regarding the carryout. I gave her money for the price of the meal, and offered to take her back next time we're downtown.
She wants me to partner with her on the housecleaning. The I'm working and your not explanation would probably not go over well. It's probably a sesitive topic. I'll perform small cleaning tasks on a more frequent basis, and tell her I've done them. That should put that problem to rest.
CL
I went to bed in the main bedroom, without asking permission. My W showed-up to bed, and didn't say anything.
I emptied the dishwasher this morning, clearing the kitchen of clutter, and sent her an email about it. I think I do more than she realizes, without getting credit for it.
She and her mother bathed the dog today to rid him of a flea problem. I was going to do it when I got home from work.
My W went shopping for new fitness clothes. They are really sharp, and make her look younger. I made sure to compliment her about it. One of her complaints, is that I don't give enough compliments, or show enough appreciation.
She went for a fitness assessment at the center. She is to lose 11% body fat, and 10-20 pounds. She performed better than I expected. My assessment is in two weeks. I'm so happy to see her attending fitness classes, and making commitments to improved health. In five weeks, she is looking more fit, and showing signs of muscle tone.
My first swim lesson is tonight. I'm being taught by a high school age lifeguard, who has a calm, low-key approach. I think he wants me to start in the deep end, and feel the fear and do it anyway.
CL
Hi CL,
"
I went to bed in the main bedroom, without asking permission"
Now that's more like it.
"
I think he wants me to start in the deep end, and feel the fear and do it anyway.Hope it goes swimmingly, and then you can apply that to the rest of your life.
Don't make me get cross again or I may have to come over there and push you in the deep end myself! OR have a few words with your wife.Is she an only child by any chance.
Btw, raw garlic cloves put in your dogs food is great at keeping fleas away. Your wife would probably object to the smell though, but it does work.
Doc,
I'll take my lumps for the poor judgment regarding the carryout. I gave her money for the price of the meal, and offered to take her back next time we're downtown.
She wants me to partner with her on the housecleaning. The I'm working and your not explanation would probably not go over well. It's probably a sesitive topic. I'll perform small cleaning tasks on a more frequent basis, and tell her I've done them. That should put that problem to rest.
CL
Chose your battles CL I l know what you mean by the “I'm working and you’re not explanation would probably not go over well. “
I don’t know why we (you and I) have to try to help our W with their problems and self esteem when we are “on our own”...
BTW I did NOT mean don’t do house work…. We share here even though “I” am the one going to school all day and W sits home... (I do the bathrooms)... I used to load the dish washer but I never got the hang of “How W wanted it loaded” so one day she said “I’ll just do it myself”.. Ok fine with me… I do rinse off my dishes though and clean up when I cook...
Well need to get back to studying three finals tomorrow
Later
Naej,
The instructor explained swimming in a way that made sense to me (if I learn proper technique, I can counter the mind's natural fear reaction to drowning). He had me in a flotation belt, and took me out to the deep end to practice Treading water. He also showed me the proper technique for the Breast stroke. I've accomplished more in one private lesson with this young man, than all prior experiences combined. I was still nervous and started to cling to the wall towards the end. My plan is to practice both skills the next time I'm at the pool. We meet again in ten days.
My W bathed the dog in Dawn detergent, and sprayed him with Lavender oil. We may consider the garlic approach, as I hear it works. Only a few fleas were spotted, so it's not yet an infestation.
CL
Doc,
I don't have a problem parnering with my W on the housecleaning issue. I'll figure-out what is a fair contribution, and see if that resolves the conflict. I don't clean much now. My W would like for me take more pride in the appearance of the home. I think she may be right on this point. Where I have control is how I approach it, and how much time I put into it.
CL
Hi CL, so pleased to hear about the swimming, made me think I may go back. I just find it so hard and suffer cramps when everyone else seems to glide effortless through the water.
Do try the garlic for a start it is a cheap natural remedy but garlic is also good for the dog just like it is for humans.
Remember the few you see are the tip of the iceburg, they soon lay eggs in your carpets etc.
Don't try one of those collars tho, one of my dogs was very poorly after using one.
have a good week end.
Hope it goes swimmingly, and then you can apply that to the rest of your life.
Btw, raw garlic cloves put in your dogs food is great at keeping fleas away. Your wife would probably object to the smell though, but it does work.
I think the generalization to life from my first swim lesson, is that if we learn the skills and put in the effort, we can manage our fears, and trust that we can keep ourselves afloat with any problem.
We're going to give the garlic treatment a try with my dog. I'm going to buy him some soft food and garlic on the way home today. My W is threatening to put a flea collar on him (which I'm opposed to). He'll probably get another bath this weekend.
CL
Yes, CL, you were the first to tell me to face my fears. Glad you are doing the same. Just waiting to hear, "the rest of the story..." Thinking of you and wishing you well!!!
My W expressed to me last Friday evening about her interest in attending events at a Salsa festival over the weekend. I was fatigued from a week of work, and from a prior night out of dancing. We also had a commitment to attend a dress rehearsal and instruction early Saturday evening with our studio. I was also hesitant about attending the fesitval's events as I thought they were overpriced.
I thought we had finally agreed to walk around the festival on Saturday afternoon and then attend our studio commitment. My W didn't wake-up until 2PM on Saturday. She started crying that we missed some dance instruction that she wanted to attend.
In retrospect, I realized that I could have handled the conversation the night before better. I was tired, but could have told her we could discuss the weekend planning at a later time. I apologized for not communicating better with her.
The studio dance time and instruction was fun and tiring. We went out to eat afterwards and then went home. The next day we attended the festival, and got to see the last set of performances. When we got home, we put the dog in the bathtub, and soaked and washed him in Dawn detergent. There were fleas floating in the tub. We may bathe him weekly during the summer.
CL
CL,
" My W didn't wake-up until 2PM on Saturday. She started crying that we missed some dance instruction that she wanted to attend."
"In retrospect, I realized that I could have handled the conversation the night before better. I was tired, but could have told her we could discuss the weekend planning at a later time. I apologized for not communicating better with her"
Yes CL, you could have taken her breakfast in bed, helped her wash and dress,packed her a little bag with toys and goodies in case she got fractious whilst you were driving.....
Words fail me, I hope you grovel suitably and thank her profusely for trying to turn you into a Perfect yes man companion.
No idea what Dawn detergent is but I think you will end up stripping the dogs natural oils from its coat, a simple injection will kill the fleas and eggs and prevent infestation for up to 3-6mths.
Naej,
I'm looking at my role in the miscommunication. I could have handled it better. I should have worked towards a compromise earlier in the process, rather than being unpleasant. I was being selfish, and not thinking as a couple. I helped to create the problems on Saturday. I'm not taking total responsibility for the miscommunication. She could have been more persistent about her needs. I didn't know how important the dance instruction was to her. I'm not proud of myself for the way I handled the situation.
CL
Cl. I cannot see how your miscommunication can explain your wifes behaviour but am not at all suprized that you take responsibilty for it.
I can only go by your posts but you come across as an extremely mild, mannored man who avoids standing up for himself like the plague to the detriment of any hope of living in a caring sharing normal marital relationship.
So tell me what does your "unpleasant behaviour " look like? I imagine silent, possibly sullen and or curt, then escaping to do your own thing ie hiding. Apologies if I have this all wrong.
I realise that childless couples have a different relationship than those who have children but even so your wife seems to be the spoiled child in this rel and you the ever patient parent trying to placate her. Still don't know if she is an only child.
I see no boundaries and unless you can set some and become an equal in this partnership and that would require a huge strength on your part and consistency, then I really see this being the pattern for life.
As I said this is all my assumptions from reading your many posts but there are two sides to every story so..
I would like to feel some passion from you,feel some love for your wife. It is that passion that will give you clear boundaries to work on and a goal to aim for and importantly a breaking point.
You are into year 3 of GAL, acting as if,maybe time to revisit what it is you actually want and need from this marriage or accept the what is.
CL,
Am I missing something here?
" My W didn't wake-up until 2PM on Saturday. She started crying that we missed some dance instruction that she wanted to attend."
So WHY couldn't she get up and go to this? does she have an alarm clock? and why was her sleepig on 1/2 the day your fault?
If she had asked YOU to wake her up ... well maybe.. but still
Just trying to understand Buddy
Doc
Doc,
I'm not taking responsiblity for the miscommunication. Her decision to sleep in was hers. She thought that I was unreasonable and unpleasant to deal with, so chose not to pursue the issue any further. I did not know this was going on in her head, and was surprised to find this out on Saturday. I thought we had reached a compromise. If I had known her position on things, I would have thought about it and been in a position to compromise. If I continued to be an obstructionist about it, than I would have needed to take a look at that. I am disappointed that we didn't work this out to a mutual satisfaction.
CL
I see no boundaries and unless you can set some and become an equal in this partnership and that would require a huge strength on your part and consistency, then I really see this being the pattern for life.
I would like to feel some passion from you,feel some love for your wife. It is that passion that will give you clear boundaries to work on and a goal to aim for and importantly a breaking point.
Naej,
I appreciate your concern and feel the passion in your posts.
I don't understand how you see no boundaries on my end. Maybe I don't convey when I'm doing something well. Maybe the boundary-setting I do is of a small nature and not conveyed in my posts. Maybe you and I have a different definition of what a boundary is. I consider speaking-up to be setting a boundary. I don't say yes to everything. In the past I probably said no too often.
I do feel the connection returning in my R with my W. I think I can say that I have a passion for making this M work. I enjoy seeing the positive changes in her. She is losing weight and getting tone from the consistent exercise. She went out and bought some stylish exercise clothes. She is looking sharp.
Even with the unemployment, she states that we have a quality of life. I consider that a success, that we've been able to manage the stressors associated with unemployment.
In some ways my rigidity in the past and setting too rigid of boundries created a problem. I was too controlling about certain things. Maybe the problem isn't a failure to set boundaries, but setting boundaries around certain issues--those that do harm to the M.
CL
CL, yes I guess we do have different definitions of boundaries and I do see that you may have not been the easiest of people to live with in the past, so I do see improvements on you being more able to go with the flow.
Your wife seems to have a very good and easy life,so she should be looking good and as that pleases you then thats another plus.Still not sure why she would need to sleep the day away when she does so little.
I wonder if her not working was a problem just how quickly the reconnection you have would fall apart.
Still as it all seems to be going in the direction you want,then that is all that matters.
I guess a big plus is the fact that her b/friend/lover? has moved away and she has nowhere to sleep elsewhere.
I think alot of this has been about saving you, releasing yourself from old habits and patterns that were very restrictive and prevented you from living the life that you felt would bring you greater happiness.
I really hope that you can achieve all of these things and have a happy marriage.
No one knows what that will be except you and that is all that matters.
CL, yes I guess we do have different definitions of boundaries and I do see that you may have not been the easiest of people to live with in the past, so I do see improvements on you being more able to go with the flow.
I think alot of this has been about saving you, releasing yourself from old habits and patterns that were very restrictive and prevented you from living the life that you felt would bring you greater happiness.
The Boundaries in Marriage book has helped me to see the importance of speaking-up about the truth as I see it in the M. I tend to underestimate my potential to influence the R, and am pleasantly surprised when my W responds to a verbal boundary.
My W has a difficult time with a standard 40 hour per week job. This is partly why I'm not pushing her to get back into the workforce. I want her to find something that fits her. In the past, she has been so stressed out from work, that she was no fun to live with.
The plan is to create enough positive connection to move us into intimacy. This will serve as prevention for future sleeping elsewhere problems.
I've changed so much, I don't recognize myself. I can't believe that I'll be performing in two months at a ballroom dance convention. My W and I are working on musicality in our lessons (body action consistent with the music). We have the foot timing down. This is where I need to grow as a dancer, and the resistance I need to work-thru.
I think part of what has kept me going in this M, is that I knew I had changes to make. I wanted to stick around and see how those changes would impact the M.
CL
Ok NOW I understand... YOU did not reilize that she wanted to go. SHE thought you did NOT want to go so she slept in but was still upset when she woke up about the whole thing....
My W sent me an email about the dog barking this morning. She likes to sleep in till late morning, and he disrupted her sleep. One day per week, the dog stays home from daycare to save on expenses. She reluctantly offered to watch him twice per week, but it would make life more difficult. In the spirit of boundary setting, I think I will ignore her email. I'm not sure what she wants me to do about it.
My W accompanied me to a dance lesson last night on the basic footwork in Tango. It was nice connecting with acquaintances in the dance community. We are starting to present to the community as a couple. She had a nice time socializing, and mentioned enjoying a new dance.
She has been putting a fair amount of time regularly into organizing and cleaning the house. She does most of it in the wee hours of the morning, not getting to sleep until very late.
She keeps tapping me on the shoulder about scheduling another trip. We have a weekend trip planned with the dance studio, a trip to Puerto Rico in September, and a trip to a dance convention with the studio in September. I've taken off 11 days from work (the most for me ever in one month). I'm reluctant to take off any more anytime soon. I think she's afraid that she won't be able to take another vacation for a long time, once she starts a new job.
CL
My W sent me an email about the dog barking this morning. She likes to sleep in till late morning, and he disrupted her sleep.
CL,
Does your dog have a dog bed? I know our dog it you are sleeping and put her dog bed in the room with you she too will sleep... unless she needs to go out to pee.
(Dog would rather sleep on the bed... but I did set Boundaries with her)
Maybe not totally ignore the E- Mail... doesn’t mean reply ….but when you get home… Maybe ask wife what she thinks the reason the dog was barking…and maybe come up with a solution together….
checking in....nothing to add, though
We did purchase a dog bed, which does help him to sleep better.
My W and I spent some time again at the pool. As soon as I came home from work, she was ready to go out and be active. I used the time to practice my Breast stroke, and to venture out into deep water (with a belt) to practice Treading water. Swimming is helping me to tone my upper body, as I don't enjoy lifting weights. I feel stronger after I've been in the water. I'm getting more comfortable being in water over my head. I'm not ready to try it without a belt. My next lesson is tomorrow.
It sounds like she has October as a target to begin actively job hunting. I won't push the issue for now. The bills are getting paid, even though there's less disposable income.
I sent her an email giving her ideas for daytrip weekend activity, as another trip seems stressful to me. I think we need to keep her busy. I told he I would willing to take a hiking trip, and bring the dog. I also told her to plan a barbeque and invite some people over. I invited her to tag along with my brother and I to a baseball game next week.
We have our dance performance in late September, so I don't think we should miss any practice sessions, by being on another trip. Our weekend dance trip is in two weeks. I think she can wait until then.
I keep attempting to write poetry as a way of dealing with the haunting memories I have about the past, and anything else that needs expression and clarity.
CL
Glad to hear you are still writing, CL.
I had my second swim lessons yesterday. He taught me how to kick my legs in the Breast stroke (like a frog). I also went out to the margins of the deep end to try Treading water without the belt. The instructor is pleased with my progress in the past week. I like how I feel after swimming.
My W and I practiced our routines last night. I keep trying to incorporate what the teacher recommends. The focus this past week has been on being more expressive with the hands. I'm supposted to keep flexing my hands to improve flexibility. I keep stretching myself to be more expressive--to match my body with how I feel inside.
A poetry author I'm reading talks about poetry as "bringing the strangeness in our lives home." I appreciate that perspective, as I try to make sense of the strangeness I've experienced since I've been on these boards.
I let my W percolate her travel ideas. I understand her restlessness. She's now talking about Peru in the winter. I think as long as I keep her busy, she'll be fine. She and I took the dog for a walk in the county park, and had a good time.
CL
Your wife is dreaming about Peru and you are happy walking in the county park. Hopefully you will find a compromise!
I had a fitness assessment the other day at the fitness center. I'm in excellent shape aerobically as far as heart rate. I'm Low Average with flexibility, Below Average with strength, Average with body fat and weight. I could lose 5-10 lb.. The area to work on is strength.
I don't want to lift weights. Yoga and Pilates probably help with this, as they involve resistance with the floor. I feel stronger after swimming, so hope that the addition of swimming into the routine will build tone and strength throughout the body. I'm also hoping if I feel and am stronger, I will carry and think of myself differently--more balance between body and mind.
My W is being nice to me lately (past weeks). We've been spending a lot of time together, and get along most of the time.
CL
CL,
If you don't want to lift weights, push-ups and other isometric resistance exercises can help with strength. Just doing cardio isn't going to help (my wife is a certified personal trainer).
Toning your body -- esp. your upper body -- with weighlifting does wonders for the self-esteem, too!
Puppy
My W had some type of dental procedure on her gums yesterday, and is having some discomfort. She didn't feel well enough to go dancing. I had a free evening, and wasn't sure how to spend the time. I did go to a restaurant to pick-up a carry out for her, and the grocery store to pick up some soft items.
She told me I could go dancing on my own if I wanted, but I thought that would not be a good choice. I put on some music and practiced some dance steps. This turned out to be a poor choice, as she described it as thoughtless, since she couldn't dance.
She's upset with me today because she wanted me to spend time with her. I wasn't sure how to spend the time. I spent some of the time tending to my dog, who chewed open some plastic Blue Ice that freezes. The container said it was non-toxic., so I crossed my fingers. I'll try to make it up to her tonight. Hopefully, she will be up to at least leaving the home.
I wil work on not taking her criticism literally, and try to adapt to her situatiion.
CL
I made a point of calling my W this morning, who had an appointment with an eye specialist. It appears the tear in her eye is healing. I told her I was looking forward to evening activity if she's up to it. I offered to pick up any items she needed from the store on my way home from work. When I get home, I'll try to keep the conversation constructive, and towards planning activity. If she has anything constructive to share, I'll listen, but won't spend much time listening to her complain about the failures of last night. I can't fix the past. She apparently wanted me to spend some time with her, but failed to communicate it. We seem to stumble over these miscommunications, for some reason.
CL
I would say she had you taking care of her in her mind that evening since she told you how bad she was feeling. She even sent you on an errand to pick up some things to comfort her, but then you weren't around to do it.
Just my take,
Burt
CL, You seem to still be walking on eggshells around you wife and she senses it. You can't decide on what to do because it appears you don't want to upset her and yet she gets upset anyway.
Start leading let her know what the plan is. "I am going to pickup Chinese on the way home for dinner. What would you like? Then I am heading to the grocery, is there anything you need? I can imagine you don't feel well after your dentist visit today. How can I help you?" Now if she needs or wants something it's up to her to bring it up. You were thoughtful of her and a man with a plan.
This turned out to be a poor choice, as she described it as thoughtless, since she couldn't dance.
Do you see how disrespectful that little dig is? Women can't love a man they don't respect. You have been thinking about her all day and then she calls you thoughtless. It also shows she wants to know what you are thinking -
intomesee.
"I understand how you could see it that way. I actually was thinking about you, that is why I didn't go dancing without you. I decided to spend my time with you."
and try to adapt to her situatiion.
That's not what she wants. She wants a man that is confident not placating her.
If she has anything constructive to share, I'll listen, but won't spend much time listening to her complain about the failures of last night.
A woman needs a man that can listen to her. That creates emotional connection when you can withstand her feelings. She can sense that you think you failed - not attractive - so I would bet she will test you on last night again. Validate her but don't let her tell you what you think, feel or believe. That why you call her out on the "thoughtless" comment, she's mindreading because she wants to know what you are thinking.
It's OK for her to feel anything she wants. You aren't responsible for her feelings.
Don't let last night be a big deal. It wasn't a failure. It was just unhealthy dialouge that can be improved.
Hi CL, just my thoughts but would it not have been possible for you to have just sat together and watched tv or a film, just being together without actually doing an activity or dancing.
She is home all day and maybe just wanted some company.
This seems to be the stumbling block that neither of you know how to just be together doing nothing. General chit chat without planning trips or lessons.
People who love and care for each other should be comfortable doing nothing much other than sitting together and maybe a hand squeeze or shoulder rub now and again,or a "can I get you anything?" just to show concern if you felt her illness was genuine.
BTW hope you remembered the rule about eating the left overs.-(sorry just my warped humour.)
Hope the dog had no ill affects, how on earth did he manage to eat freezer packs,shouldn't they be in the freezer.
I give you credit for dogged determination,this relationship is such hard work on a daily basis.
Validate her but don't let her tell you what you think, feel or believe.
Don't let last night be a big deal. It wasn't a failure. It was just unhealthy dialouge that can be improved.
I let her continue to repeat her complaint when I got home, but decided that I wasn't going to let her spend too much time there, as she begins to repeat herself. I did lead the evening plans, as I knew she would get stuck in her negativity. We started the evening off with swimming and practicing the Breast stroke and kick. On the way home we stopped at a concert where a band was playing 60's music. My W wanted to dance, which I tried to accommodate, but I don't Swing or Hustle well. The evening was still young, I didn't want to end on a sour note, so I suggested we go to our late night Salsa venue. We found several of our dance friends there and had a good time.
After our dance lesson at 1PM today, the day is open. There's a Salsa festival about 100 miles to the north. There are no primary dance options for the evening. I may suggest we drog the dog off at her sister's and head up there, even if I have to drive home late at night. I have to be back late morning to go to a baseball game with my brother (which she declined).
My test this weekend is to negotiate our time together to mutual satisfaction, even though I have a Sunday afternoon with my brother, and no typical local dance events to attend.
CL
That creates emotional connection when you can withstand her feelings.
Validate her but don't let her tell you what you think, feel or believe.
One of the patterns I'm trying to break is avoiding her intense feelings. I'm trying to hang in there with her, even when it's unpleasant.
This is my first step in establishing boundaries--not taking her opinions and making them my own without testing to see if they are true. My pattern has been to take it as true, feel like a failure, and try harder at doing the same things.
She has frequently in the past asked me to take the lead in situations. Her mind is always going, and she naturally wants to take control of things. I'm learning that if I sometimes take control, it gives her a rest, and gives me a voice in the outcome.
CL
This is my first step in establishing boundaries--not taking her opinions and making them my own without testing to see if they are true. My pattern has been to take it as true, feel like a failure, and try harder at doing the same things.
Hi CL, just thought I'd stop in and lend my support. How are you doing with this first step; at breaking your old pattern? Any opportunities to practice setting your boundaries?
She has frequently in the past asked me to take the lead in situations. Her mind is always going, and she naturally wants to take control of things.
Is she quite a worrier, CL? Just wondering because of some of your references to her desire to control, plus her venting and intense emotions.
FMV,
I'm shortening the duration of feeling bad, and am trying to look at the bigger picture, rather than just her opinions when she's being emotional. I'm getting better at it.
She is quite a worrier, though I think she's working on it. She and I exercise together on a more frequent basis at our health club. Since I've taken up swimming, we can now swim together a few times per week. Her and my particiaption in the health club has helped lower the stress in the M a great deal.
In addition to boundary-setting I'm also working on being more expressive, being more willing to try new things, being more willing to take risks, and thinking in terms of the partnership instead of mainly me.
My body is getting stronger, my mind is getting sharper, and my light is shining brighter.
CL
FMV,
My body is getting stronger, my mind is getting sharper, and my light is shining brighter.
Wonderful to hear CL. I can appreciate how difficult it must be to live with a worrier. I'm one, so I know how hard it is on my H.
I love that you're working on being more expressive - I think that as you model this for her and lead the way, I bet she'll become more expressive herself. That's the best antidote for worriers - to learn how to verbalize concerns before they get a chance to grow and get distorted inside their hearts. My friend really put it well the other day. She said: "Sometimes the act of making yourself heard reduces the insecurity. Harboring and feeding it makes it grow."
But, as I know only too well, it takes a long time to learn the tools to turn 'worries into words'. In the meantime, there can be a lot of blow-ups. I put my H through that a lot too. Since I've been learning how to speak up it happens a lot less often. I hope you and your W are finding the same. So good for you! Glad to hear of the positive changes!
I love that you're working on being more expressive - I think that as you model this for her and lead the way, I bet she'll become more expressive herself.S
Since I've been learning how to speak up it happens a lot less often.
At this point, being more expressive is simply speaking-up more often, rather than avoiding, or not thinking in terms of the partnership, and leaving her hanging or stewing.
A minor conflict we're having is balancing our dancing styles--I prefer ballroom, and she likes the pace of Salsa. I comromised with her and told her I would go with her last night to a late night Salsa venue, if she went to a Tango lesson with me. I also told her that I want to visit a ballroom venue one night per week to practice ballroom. She agreed to go to this. I expect some complaints from her at the ballroom venue, because she's still learning the skills. I will stick to my guns about meeting my needs, and expressing those to her. The partnership doesn't have to be a perfect fit.
CL
My W and I had a weekend getaway with our dance studio. We had a nice time for the most part. The evening ballroom dance didn't go well for my W. She enjoyed connecting with the other students, and even got up early for breakfast. The ballroom dance was again stressful for her.
She said afterwards that she feels like she is sitting watching others dance. I know the instructor and others dance with her and keep her busy, but I guess it's not enough. I'm reluctant to dance my less skilled dances with her, because she's so self-conscious on the floor and won't tolerate mistakes. The teacher tried to tell her that mistakes are part of the process. She cried all the way home in the car, and was intoxicated when we left.
She tried to blame me for her experience. I asked her what it was I did wrong, and she was not able to articulatete it. She kept repeating how she's wanted to dance ballroom as a child, and was denied by her mother. I replied to her email this morning, and told her to think about what skills she needs to be comfortable in a ballroom setting, and make a plan to develop them. I would help to the extent I can. I did influence her to go to a ballroom dance at a studio last Friday, and she had a fine experience. The large ballroom was intimidating to her.
I'll work on not letting myself get hooked into her comments, and try to stay focused on problem-solving. If she gets disrespectful, I'll wait until another time to help her with this problem. I think not working is also adding to her stress. Spending time with other couples is helpful, because you get to see all of them having conflicts at some point or another. The teachers fuss in front of us.
CL
She tried to blame me for her experience. I asked her what it was I did wrong, and she was not able to articulatete it. ...
I'll work on not letting myself get hooked into her comments, and try to stay focused on problem-solving. If she gets disrespectful, I'll wait until another time to help her with this problem.
Hi CL, glad to hear you're not buying into her blame, and maintaining your mutually-respectful boundaries. Hopefully as she continues to see you model them, she'll follow suit.
PS Thank you also for all your support today - it meant a lot and you gave me many good ideas to consider.
She tried to blame me for her experience. I asked her what it was I did wrong, and she was not able to articulatete it.
This is interesting. I get this from my wife AND kids sometimes.
I think this is projection or deflection of some kind. She is pissy and puts that blame on you. You seemed to stand up for yourself a little by asking her to articulate. I think you need to show a little more back bone and let her know SHE needs to take some responsibility for her happiness or unhappiness and at the very least, if there is a problem with you, she needs to take the responsibility of effectively communicating it.
It seems she is used to you egg shelling. So much so that she doesn't even have to communicate, just pout and your mind reading takes care of the rest. That's not fair to any spouse.
HER mother denying HER the chance to ballroom dance is not your fault.
She tried to blame me for her experience. I asked her what it was I did wrong, and she was not able to articulatete it.
I think this is projection or deflection of some kind. She is pissy and puts that blame on you.
Hi Down, CL
Another interpretation of when people try to blame others for their experience, is misplaced self-blame. Often it's the things we despise, judge and are angry with most in ourselves, that we accuse/blame others for feeling about us. (or is that what you were meaning by 'projection', Down?) The reason I think this is first, because of how self-conscious she seems to be when faced with the possibility of making a mistake in public; and second, because she was unable to articulate it, when CL confronted her and asked for specifics as to what she felt he did wrong. That's the crappy thing about low self-worth and self-awareness. It often comes out as... well...just like Down said... 'pissy'. Tough to stay respectful and compassionate around.
Granted, this is a very unhealthy way of relating and
certainly doesn't justify what she's doing. I just wanted to throw the idea out there for consideration. I agree with Down that it's her job to learn what makes her happy and communicate respectfully. Just keep remembering your boundaries and don't accept that misdirected blame CL. Take care.
Yes, that is what I meant...but perhaps did not communicate it effectively
Another interpretation of when people try to blame others for their experience, is misplaced self-blame.
Just keep remembering your boundaries and don't accept that misdirected blame CL. Take care.
FMV, DNO,
I like the concept of misplaced self-blame. That is a good description of her process.
In my effort to promote problem-solving, I offered to attend an extra lesson to help her learn the skills she needs to be comfortable in a ballroom setting. She took me up on the offer. I emailed her that I would be willing to do this for one month, as I'm sacrificing my swimming practice. She wants to split both lessons into ours and hers. I countered that Thursdays lesson could be hers, and the ongoing weekend ones stay ours. I did pay for a package of lessons too, so think I should have some say on the agenda. We'll see
CL
I'm going to also have to navigate her unemployment. Money has become a sensitive topic. I'm going to have to put boundaries around money discussions, and work on being nonreactive and listen if she is respectful. Over dinner last night, she shared that the reason she left in 03' is because she wanted to have a child, and didn't see any prospects with me. She would have liked to be a stay-at-home mother. I was not aware of this at the time. I don't know how I would have responded if she raised the issue then. She also says that if I were to die, she would look for a man who can support her financially. She is weary of having to be mindful of money.
I tried to listen nonjudgmentally, and not take it personally. She seems to desire a higher family income than I do. I don't know how to solve this problem. I'm not willing to leave a job that I like; I make a modest, but respectful salary.
CL
Yeah, don't take that so personally. Who doesn't want someone to support them. If I could be married to me...or married to the me who earns $500,000 a year. I am picking the me with a good job every time.
Again, not necessarily your problem to solve. Just watch out for banana peels on the stairs.
She is weary of having to be mindful of money.
that's a big fear for most women, she needs that security.
lead on this
have a money talk
Income - Expenses = Profit (savings)
it's like trying to lose weight you can control how many calories your bring in and how many you burn.
If your income is fixed then go thru the expenses, what does she want to cut out, if she worked what would it mean to your situation, do you two know if you will be able to retire like you want?
be business like, show her all your accts, take the drama out of it. facts tend to ruin emotional arguments.
"i understand you would like to have more, where do you suggest we cut expenses?"
let her decide working would be good for both of you, "we could take the extra trip a year if you worked." , make it win-win
she let you see into her, be wise
Coach, DNO,
Thanks for your advice. I don't know what I could do differently to help with family finances. I work full-time, I spend very little, I watch the checking accounts and make sure bills are paid, I help my W with her part-time cooking job. She was talking about fear of bankruptcy, which is not an issue. We have equity in a house, which I've only tapped into twice for kitchen remodeling and home improvements.
We've met with a financial planner three times over the past ten years. We are on a good path for retirment. He set up her inheritance in an income account to generate extra cash for her, so she would rely on the credit cards less. We do have too much credit card debt, which won't be addressed until she returns to work. She complains about raiding her income fund, but she's the one who wants to pursue vacations and dance lessons. She's done a good job of keeping our next vacation on a budget.
I have not in her two months of unemployment nagged her to return to work. I have also not nagged her about spending on the vacation and dance lessons. I've decided that she needs these positives to hold onto during her unemployment, and the debt accrued will be temporary and managable. I want it to be her idea (as you say), and to return in the form that suits her. I agree that this is not completely my problem to solve, nor should I overextend myself looking for work I won't enjoy or working extra hours while she sits at home. I'm thinking that once she returns to work, we should meet again with a financial planner to have him keep us on-track.
CL
She's done a good job of keeping our next vacation on a budget.
This is a win-win. She has something to look forward to (woman hate to be bored). Plus she is budgeting, she likes this. She feels in control of the money (security).
We've met with a financial planner three times over the past ten years.
That's good and it works for you, men tend to think strategic and women tend to think tactical. She needs more information about the day to day financial issues. She can feel in control then and therefore feel safe.
Give her what she wants. She wants to feel secure about money, she wants to feel provided for. It's not about how much you make. It will be very attractive to her.
I accompanied my W to her private lesson this week. After another frustrating experience at a ballroom event, she has decided to expand her dance repertoire. She wants to be able to dance every dance, if that is what she chooses.
Last year, I ventured into ballroom on my own, after she started sleeping elsewhere again. I was contemplating divorce We had a dancing separation for most of last year, and she partnered with someone from the Salsa community. We were roommates.
I ventured to a new studio last December, and allowed her to attend with me. She began taking private lessons. They were her lessons, and I filmed them for her. I went to group classes on my own--Waltz technique, Samba workshop, and other dances.
An opportunity came in March for a Hustle formation team. I decided to see if I could move the R forward one last time. It was a success. The connection increased and the dance partnership taken to a higher level.
The instructor noticed our work ethic and invited us to join Tango and later Cha Cha teams. We spent the summer attending group classes and private lessons weekly. We have been learning dance technique and fundamentals of body action, leg action, body shaping, and styling. It's been a year of personal growth for both of us. We will be performing at a dance convention in September as part of three teams.
I dance the Latin dances with her because that is what we can do without conflict. The smooth dances (Waltz, Tango, Foxtrot) are still new to me. We end up fighting on the floor with these dances, so I dance with other ladies. I'm willing to practice on the floor. She wants to be competent before she hits the floor. The instructor is going to help us evolve into being able to partner in the smooth dances. This would expand our repertoire and allow us to dance together at most any event. This would also also increase the number of dances we can do together. This would correct the ratio of dancing between she and I and I and other ladies to one of mutual satisfaction. She later complained after our weekend trip, that she wanted to dance more with me. It's very difficult for her to sit out a dance.
CL
Communication and money issues.....if only we had a magic wand!
My W and I socialized with our dance teachers and fellow students at a venue last night. It was an opportunity for my W and I to socialize as a couple. Other couples were dancing but my W let me know that she was still upset about last weekend and sitting out so many dances, while I danced with others. I decided to use my time socializing and getting to know my fellow students better. I've decided that if we're going to move into being social as a couple, then it means that others are going to see imperfections. My W tries to convey her doubts about my commitment to move into the areas important to her. The teacher knows me well enough and reminds her that I have a good work ethic. It was an evening of social connection beyond dance, that my W and I rarely experience together.
My W started taking lessons to help her move into the smooth dances, to increase her repertoire. She is weary of the performance teams and wants to move more into partner dancing. I will continue to ask her to practice 1-2X per week, and shift to practicing what she needs to learn in her lessons and what we learn in the group classes.
She's having some resistance to my going to visit my parents over the Labor Day weekend. She gets to see her mother weekly. I take a twice yearly trip to visit my parents. Her sacrifice this trip is one day alone. She doesn't enjoy herself when she goes. I told her that I would return soon enough to help her with the cooking early Monday evening. I'm thinking I should hold onto my plans, and make her adapt. She will have to entertain herself for two evenings.
CL
I'm thinking I should hold onto my plans, and make her adapt. She will have to entertain herself for two evenings.
Hurrah, CL! Good for you, for not sacrificing your plans. To have sacrificed them would have only fed her insecurities. She needs to see that she will be fine without you for a couple of evenings. You're making wonderful changes! Be wary of those frustrating 'change back' patterns though... she'll very likely continue resisting your trip in efforts to get things back to what she's used to. Hold on to those plans, just like you said!
Look forward to hearing about your trip to see your parents over Labor Day. Enjoy!!
I am happy to hear that you are presenting yourselves as a married couple now. That seems more healthy when trying to make your marriage work.
I am happy to hear that you are presenting yourselves as a married couple now. That seems more healthy when trying to make your marriage work.
I wouldn't say presenting ourselves as a married couple, but a couple who appears to be married. She has yet to call me her H in a dance social setting.
CL
I've added free weights to my exercise repertoire. I've decided to stop by the weight room after swimming or a class. My W joined me yesterday for this. I'm now able to swim a lap in the outdoor pool doing the breaststroke. I'm getting stronger. My W and I go together to the fitness center most of the time.
I initiated a dance practice session last night and put more focus on learning the new steps we've learned this past month and the steps my W is learning in her lessons. It was an awkward practice session. My W's feedback is blunt, but helpful. She seems to have resentment about my GAL activity last year when I went dancing on my own. Her goal is to be able to dance every dance at a ballromm venue, so I want to partner with her on this, even thru the awkward, fussing phase.
I've compromised with my W and will return home in time to do my usual cooking task. I will cut the trip short by only a few hours-- it's reasonable. I don't expect her to support this trip, but visiting my parents 2X per year seems reasonable to me. I'm not asking her permission on this decision.
CL
You had mentioned that you don't really care for weight lifting per-se. I suggest you google on the following and investigate the programs. They are somewhat similar but most are full body exercises that use your own bodyweight for resistance. They are nice for functional strength (think dancers body). I have no association with any of these, just thought it might help you out.
You can to these programs anywhere with not equipment or you can add some dumbbells.
Google one or any: bodyweight fuzion, bodyweight turbulence training, flow fit, tacfit,
You can also find videos of these programs on YouTube.
My W had a great weekend while I was visiting my parents. A friend of hers invited her over to dinner on Saturday. On Sunday she invited my W to a high priced event in which she got to visit the clubhouse of the local professional baseball team, and got to meet some of the stars of years past. She got a few autographs for me. My W is not a baseball fan, but she enjoyed the novelty of her experience. She said that she missed me when I got back. Next week is our Puerto Rico trip.
CL
My W and I leave for our Puerto Rico trip on Monday and will return on Sunday. We've had a good summer spending time at our dance studio, preparing for our performances, which will be in three weeks, spending time at the pool, getting into an exercise routine. We haven't had a trip since January, so both are ready for some rest.
People in the dance community notice that we're out together consistently again. My W mentioned to our dance teacher that she didn't speak to me "for a year" (referring to our distance last year).
I'm reading Deepak Chopra's "The Path to Love." I like his metaphor of love as "cleansing the window of perception." It reminds me to keep an eye on my opinions, judgments, and reactions.
CL
Welcome back. How was the trip?
Evening, CL. Just wanted to stop by and say hello, see how your trip went? Hope it provided you with the time, rest and space to help continue reconnecting.
FMV, Matilda and Piecing Friends,
The trip did provide me and us with more time and space to work on improving the connection. There was turbulence towards the end of the trip, but with my self-help book on "The Path to Love" as a guide and a willingness to listen to her complaints, after initial defensiveness, I think this trip will be a catalyst for increased connection and movement towards intimacy.
I'll have to sort it out. Some of the fussing had to do with the stressors inherent in travelling (driving in unfamiliar cities, trying to meet both of our travel needs, on limited time). She wanted more exploration, I was happy to keep going back to beaches we had a good day at. We'll probably need to expand the next trip by several days. We were trying to accomplish too much in not enough time.
During the turbulent last few days, when the emotional thunderstorms filled the day, and my efforts to accommodate her kept failing, I initially was defensive and reactive, but switched to listening and giving her the space to vent, and heard that she values our time together and is deeply hurt if I'm unpleasant to be with. She also wants more affection from me, and wants me to show more gratitude for her kindness and service to the R.
She's already talking about a return trip so that we can explore what we didn't get to do this trip. A return trip in the winter would be fine with me.
There were highlights. At one of the Salsa venues, my W entered me in a dance contest. I was paired with an excellent partner (a local version of my W) and won the contest and a $100.
CL
CL,
Just wanted to let ya know I am still reading along..seems like things are going good huh?
Not sure how you feel but with me....... MAN THIS PROCESS IS SLOW
a while back on my post I wrote how It felt like I was taking two steps forward and then one step back.... now it just seems like one step forward.. wait wait wait wait... another step forward.. wait wait wait
takc care buddy
Doc
She also wants more affection from me, and wants me to show more gratitude for her kindness and service to the R.
CL
I have not heard your wife's side of the story, but I wish your wife would show more gratitude for YOUR kindness and service to the R. And for your patience!!! Then I think you would be more willing/able(?) to show more affection.
I have not heard your wife's side of the story, but I wish your wife would show more gratitude for YOUR kindness and service to the R. And for your patience!!!
Can I get a double amen.
Then I think you would be more willing/able(?) to show more affection.
I have to be careful not to blame her for not showing more affection. I have to look inside and see what I can do to move towards her request and desire.
I've been focusing on boundaries and companionship this past year. I need to move towards developing a more loving mindset. I think of myself as having self-restraint with my W, but need more compassion. self-expression, listening, and less judgment and reactivity. I'm going to experiment with giving her the space to work thru her emotions, and communicate her concerns with me. I believe that underneath the emotional turbulence is a desire to connect and move forward. Her style with conflict is emotional bluntness rather than a calm approach, which I'll need to accept for now.
CL
Doc,
I know what you mean. I don't seem to be going backwards at this time, but slowly forward, as long as I keep working on connection, partnership, and communication.
My W has calmed down a great deal this year and is much easier to live with. She is still temperamental (and probably will always be to some extent). She is asking for partnership, and wants me to tell her if something is bothering me. She also wants me to watch my words and tone (she thinks I need to manage certain stressors better). She also wants more affection.
I have to make the transition to a partner mindset (it's been awhile).
She puts time into household cleaning, and has managed the planning of our trips. She keeps talking about job hunting but hasn't yet begun.
CL
An unresolved problem continues to be my W's unemployment. She does have a one day cooking job that helps to pay expenses, but my W (and I support) wants to hold onto positive activities and a lifestyle that takes a disposable income. Between her cooking job and my job, we make a respectable income that would in many cases afford a comfortable lifestyle. However, we choose to belong to a fitness club, take two vacations a year, and take weekly dance lessons. I support holding onto these positives, otherwise one is working to keep one's home, but doesn't have a life outside of it.
My W is not initiating a job-hunting process. A part-time job would provide the disposable income she desires for leisure activities, and for miscellaneous expenses like vet bills, car repair, home repair and other items. I've waited three months for her to begin moving forward on her own, and she hasn't. Her fear is that she won't be able to take a vacation for a year, if she starts a new job. I think having more structure in her week would be helpful to her, as she seems to sit in front of the computer and ruminate too much. i think a part-time job would be the next step for her to relieve financial stress, so she job-hunt from a better place.
My dilemma is how to help her move forward in a loving way. She has been using the word partnership lately. I think she has a responsibility as a partner to contribute more to the household income to maintain the lifestyle she wants.
She asked me if I would go back to Puerto Rico in a month or two. I think that is too soon. I don't want to collude in her procrastination. I would be willing to take a winter trip.
We've been thru this before with her lack of job-hunting self-initiative during unemployment. I probably held frustration and anger towards her and didn't help matters. I want to handle this situation better this time.
We're off to our first ballroom dance convention on Tuesday. We will be performing three different routines as part of a team there. We'll return on Sunday. We've put a lot of practice time over the summer, and have been diligent about personal practices, lessons, and attending practice sessions at the studio. The one instructor seems pleased with our progress; the other one seems perpetually frustrated with us. We looked as good as we're capable of this weekend, with the knowledge that there's room for continued skill-building.
CL
Hope the ballroom convention will be a fun filled activity.
Re. your wife's lack of initiative looking for a job....do you think she is concerned about being turned down and, therefore, is a afraid to start? It seems a part time job would be ideal....maybe managing a vacation without even having to take vacation days if she has some flexibility with the days she works. I have one suggestion of what NOT to do: Don't cut out job notices and leave them in plain sight (that is what my ex would do. I already had a job I liked, but he thought I should make more money). Do you think working on a budget together would help your wife realize a part time job is needed to continue dance lessons and vacations without adding stress to your relationship?
Good morning, CL. That is a tough problem isn't it. Tell me, what kinds of conversations have you had, around her working? And, what was her history... do you have children she's been caring for? We don't have kids ourselves, but from speaking with girlfriends who've been out of the job market for years caring for children, gathering the courage to step back into the job market is a formidable task. Even a friend of ours who stepped away from a fairly high-level professional consulting role has cold feet about it now. Could fear be behind her procrastination? What kinds of marketable skills does she have? Is she in need of new or re-training?
Also, I think a lot of people just don't know 'how' to go about finding a job. That alone can cause a lot of procrastination. I know I had this problem. Could I suggest a fabulous book? It's called '
What Colour is Your Parachute' by Dick Bolles. It's a job-hunting and career-changers manual. It's easy to read and actually can strengthen self-esteem with exercises geared to exploring your strengths. Surprisingly, the exercises are quite fun and I think your W would find it very productive and enjoyable. Let us know how things proceed CL. Take care! FMV.
Matilda,
She has mentioned that she is concerned about not being able to take a vacation for a year, with the start of a new job. She also wanted the Puerto Rico trip to be in July, so she could be working by now. Other than that, she doesn't say a thing.
My W is aware in a general sense of the financial situation. She knows that she has to return to work to some extent. I think for now I'll look for opportunities to talk about it and offer my assistance, such as one hour per week of working on her resume, or writing cover letters. I think once she gets started, she'll feel better. I'm better at organizing time than she is, so that may be part of the problem. The bills are getting paid, but it's a paycheck to paycheck existence, so must be temporary.
I agree with your advice , that we must partner together on this problem, and that I shouldn't be passive-aggressive or controlling about it. I also agree that a part-time job is probably a better fit for her than a full-time one, but she has to decide.
CL
Tell me, what kinds of conversations have you had, around her working? And, what was her history... do you have children she's been caring for? Could fear be behind her procrastination? What kinds of marketable skills does she have? Is she in need of new or re-training?
Also, I think a lot of people just don't know 'how' to go about finding a job.
FMV,
The conversations have been brief and limited. They will need to expand. I will need to pursue this topic with her, when the opportunity arises. I don't want to push her to do something she's not ready for yet.
There are no children involved.
She has a graduate degree in business. She has a job history in the Accounting field, the social services field as a caseworker, and most recently as a small business counselor (which she loved). I don't think there's any need for going back to school. She is quite marketable IMO.
If left to herself, the proacrastination will continue. She always needed the assistance of myself or a relative to organize her and move her forward.
CL
I don't think there's any need for going back to school. She is quite marketable IMO.
You're not kidding!! If there's no children involved, then I'm a little confused. And if this is private by all means, I don't need to know. What led her to leave the job market, in such a significant way?
The conversations have been brief and limited. They will need to expand. I will need to pursue this topic with her, when the opportunity arises.
Yes, I can see where you're coming from. Just be sure to stick to those 'I' messages and speak from your own experience as you do so well, and I'm sure everything will eventually turn out well. I'm just so surprised at her procrastination... she's obviously very well qualified and must have an impressive skill set!
FMV,
She was working for a nonprofit agency that lost it's funding, and was poorly managed by its CEO.
CL
I'm sitting on a computer at a resort in northern Florida the day before the dance convention. Our instructors are expected to arrive today. Our first performance is Friday afternoon. My W and I arrived early to have some free time alone.
I notice how much calmer my W seems. She is not as reactive as she used to be, and is more pleasant to be around, even with the stressor of her partial unemployment. I think she's trying and struggling. She struggles with her moods, anxiety, smoking, and insomnia.
I struggle with staying with a loving, accepting mindset in spite of the imperfections, but I'm trying. I struggle everyday and often. I try to talk with her more often, instead of staying in my own world. I try to think more like a partner.
She had been complaining about this and that about the trip until we settled in last night. I kept quiet, and let her speak her mind without having to control what she thought or said, or judge her for having her opinions. This is my effort to break my own patterns that cause problems for me and the R.
I think there is something positive here at this dance convention for both of us to grow. It seems right being here.
CL
My W and I are back from the dance convention. We both seem to think that the trip went smoothly.
She mentioned to me recently that she sent me an email about being nice to her. I haven't received it. I was hoping to read it so I can see what she specifically is asking for. She is very sensitive to my words and mood, so must be careful of what comes out of my mouth. It's impossible to be perfect, so I try to be nice most of the time.
She mentioned that she plans on attending a job-hunting club soon. She's been unemployed for three months. I was wondering how I could influence her to begin job-hunting, but I'll wait for now and let her go at her own pace, since she is making plans.
I've been missing going to my weekday ballroom venue to practice, opting instead to going to an exercise class with her. She mentioned recently that she has an interest in going to that venue after our exercise class, so the problem may be taking care of itself.
CL
My W had a birthday dance at our Salsa venue this week. The floor is cleared for only those with birthdays, and people line-up to dance briefly with them. I wasn't there last year, but danced with her this year, and did a Sway Dip that caught the eye of one of the teachers, who high-fived me as I came off the floor. It was a good experience for her, and she was glad she stayed for it.
People in the dance community are noticing my W and I together on a consistent basis, and have assumed correctly that we are travelling together. Some know our marital status, and many do not. Some lady's take advantage during a dance to ask me a personal question about my relationship status. I don't want to discuss my marriage with woman on the dance floor . I'll have to work on a response to be polite but dismissive. People can see that we're together; that's all they need to know.
My W is putting effort into managing her emotions, and has been easier to be with. She is naturally temperamental, so I give latitude for that, and she does lapse into losing her temper sometimes, but this has been fewer and farther between.
I've agreed to a Puerto Rico trip in late winter or early spring. I've also agreed to a weekend trip to a ballroom dance convention next month that is only a few hours from where we live. My W seems to need getaways to look forward to.
CL
Cl,
Just wanted to let ya know I'm here... Reading along..just don't have any imput. You seem to be doing fine...
Doc
It is hard to get a read on you but to me as a reader, you seem even keel, perhaps to a fault. Do you think she might be temperamental to try get some feedback out of you? I am sort of like you and also have a "temperamental" latin wife. I recall her once saying, almost in tears, won't you just fight with me! She was serious. She wanted to see some fire, some response. Food for thought.
Along the same lines of be super even keel
She mentioned that she plans on attending a job-hunting club soon. She's been unemployed for three months. I was wondering how I could influence her to begin job-hunting, but I'll wait for now and let her go at her own pace, since she is making plans.
You may point out to her that recognize, appreciate, and admire, her taking the initiative on this. It may go a ways toward making her feel like you are more a partner and supporting her...or at least it will make a few minutes of good will. This is something she had been asking for (the partner part).
It is hard to get a read on you but to me as a reader, you seem even keel, perhaps to a fault. Do you think she might be temperamental to try get some feedback out of you? I am sort of like you and also have a "temperamental" latin wife. I recall her once saying, almost in tears, won't you just fight with me! She was serious. She wanted to see some fire, some response. Food for thought.
DNO,
Your point is well taken. The problem is my W gets her feelings hurt if I display anger or frustration, so I hold back emotion. Maybe I don't know how to be emotional and respectful. She seems to want me to be nice, but also be present, conversational, affectionate, listening. She can be temperamental, but I'm not allowed to be. This seems to be the unspoken rules. She doesn't want avoidant, distant, sullen, silent, selfish.
I will be supportive of her job-hunting efforts, and let her go at her own pace, as long as she's moving forward.
She's been seeing her psychiatrist 1-2X per month lately. She shares some of what she talks about. She's been talking with him about the OP that she spent so much of last year with. Her psychiatrist has been describing him as a troubled, manipulative, selfish person. My W seems to talk about this as if this is a revelation to her. She doesn't speak about her role in that R. She seems to be emotionally moving on from him.
CL
The problem is my W gets her feelings hurt if I display anger or frustration, so I hold back emotion.
I think that's a cycle a lot of folks get stuck in CL.
I was the same way as your W. I'd be out of my mind waiting for my H to express his emotions - anger, frustration... anything! But when he did,
I didn't know how to handle it. So I'd get hurt and defensive, thinking that he was blaming me (granted, sometimes he did; but sometimes he didn't), or that I was at fault for his upset feelings or something. As a result, he'd go and bottle up his emotions even more. Which would then make me even more incapable of learning how to handle him expressing emotions because he'd resist share them with me because of my reaction. It's a - what do they call it - a feedback loop or something?
So maybe it's not that your W doesn't want you to show your emotions; it's that she just doesn't know how to handle it when you do. IDK - just a theory - what do you think - does it seem to fit for you?
PS - Have you ever read any of Harriet Lerner's work? She talks a lot about these cycles in relationships. My favorite one of hers was 'The Dance of Intimacy'. Others of hers are 'The Dance of Anger' and 'The Dance of Connection'. I've read them all, and they're all excellent.
catching up. No wise words, but wanted you to know I was following along!
So maybe it's not that your W doesn't want you to show your emotions; it's that she just doesn't know how to handle it when you do. IDK - just a theory - what do you think - does it seem to fit for you?
Yes. I think both my W and I need to get better at self-expression, and managing conflict.
CL
Thanks. I'll look into these books. I have heard of them, but haven't pursued them.
CL
My W and I went to the dance venue that I went alone to back in my GAL days of last year. I made sure I had a partner mindset, with her enjoyment being of high priority. It went better than expected. In the past I would hear complaints that I was having too much fun with the other ladies. I didn't hear that last night. I still got to dance with many of my former dance lady friends. My agenda is to practice ballroom with ladies in addition to my W. I made sure to introduce her to people she didn't know (some of her dance partners were there). She said that she wants to go back on a regular basis. My dancing has suffered from not going to this venue, so I'm thrilled to be back. I was getting bored going primarily to latin venues.
CL
In the past I would hear complaints that I was having too much fun with the other ladies.
Oh my friend, the irony of this statement almost made my cornflakes come through my nose.
You are a good man. I would have had trouble letting that slide.
My W seems to be struggling with some depression and anxiety. She's having sleeping problems--no consistent schedule, falls asleep early in the morning. She spends a lot of time in front of the computer. She did do a lot of research and planning putting our two trips together. She will occassionally get a burst of energy and do housecleaning, otherwise it's done weekly with her mother. She only works one day per week, and has been unemployed for three months. She sees her psychiatrist 1-2X per month. She talks about joining a job-hunting group, but hasn't taken the first step.
She will accompany me to dance classes and venues, exercise classes, walking the dog and restaurants. Last night at our dance venue, she told me that two of her partners asked her if she was OK, as her energy level seemed atypical. She has a hiking trip planned with a friend for next month. She also had discontinued her Vitamin D, and had that recently refilled.
CL
The inability to sleep is a symptom of menopause. Even if she is not already in menopause, then she is peri-menopausal. it will get worse when she fully reaches menopause. The best thing is lots of exercise during the day to be physically tired.
I didn't know that. She is under the care of a gynecologist and psychiatrist. I try to keep her physically and socially active in the evenings and weekends.
I noticed a smoking cessation class being offered at our fitness center. It is lead by a lung specialist. My intent was to let her know about it. Joining is her decision. She seemed interested when I showed her, so I'll probably remind her one more time as the start date gets closer, and then will leave it at that.
CL
The inability to sleep is a symptom of menopause. Even if she is not already in menopause, then she is peri-menopausal. it will get worse when she fully reaches menopause.
You can say that agian
My W is planning on attending a job hunting group (after four months of unemployment) soon. Since she is planning on this, I keep quiet about this issue, and let her go at her own pace. I manage the finances as best I can (the bills get paid, with credit card use for extras like the dog's daycare or unexpected vet expenses).
I'm able to get her out to be social and physically active, but her sleep is still off. She doesn't go to bed until 3AM and sleeps until noon.
It's an adjustment having her out in the dance community. I admittedly miss being a "single" guy in the dance community. It's also difficult because my W is more straightforward with dance feedback than other lady's are.
I'm working on not letting her moods or irritability affect me too much, but I still get reactive too often. I'm realizing that I blame my W for my reactions to her, and that I need to work on calming myself down, avoid judging her or trying to control her, and living life with her more gracefully, regardless of the problems or her state of mind.
CL
I came home yesterday from work ready and eager to attend our weekly dance class and Salsa venue. My W called me on my way home and told me she was depressed. When I got home, she said she wanted to go to dinner as she hadn't eaten all day. I tried to bargain with her, so I could at least attend the dance class. She started crying again. I took the dog for a walk to think about what I should do--skip the dance class or take the night off to be a dinner companion.
I decided to go to dinner with the hope that it might have a positive influence on her. She shared that she had been cleaning out the basement and was reminded of how unhappy she had been in the past, how poorly she had taken care of her appearance, and disorganized she was. She also was upset with herself for still smoking. I tried to get her to think in terms of what steps she could take, but she didn't respond.
I think listening to a depressed person is helpful to some extent, but ultimately they must make changes in terms of how they think, and how they approach life. My approach to helping her will be to be a companion in social and physical activity, and trying to get her to take small steps forward in solving problems. If I spend too much time listening to her talk, without seeing her taking small steps forward, I will think I'm not being helpful and not using the time well.
We saw our dance teachers at a venue this week, and they asked us to perform a solo Salsa demonstration at a retirement community in December. I expressed my interest, and hope my W will take advantage of this opportunity.
My W attended her second night with me at my ballroom venue. It got off to a difficult start. She started the night off with two dances with other men. I found out later that she didn't want to dance with them, so she was mad at me. I began to dance consecutive dances with her to turn the mood around. It helped to some extent. She didn't complain about the evening afterward, so I guess she hasn't abandoned the venue. I think she needs to be more assertive about asking men to dance, to break the ice with them.
I watched her sitting at the bar, staring at her sandwich. She lacked her usual energy and enthusiasm when out dancing. When speaking with our dance teachers the one dance teacher's mouth was open with surprise, as my W spoke critically of herself and our dancing. I was embarrassed.
I plan on being compassionate, but smarter about it this time around. She needs a kind ear, a guiding hand, and also the expectation that I will continue to participate in some activities without her, if she continues to take the night off.
CL
CL,
For a 51-year-old woman, you seem to treat your wife like a father would treat a child, or a pet. You guide her around, keep her busy, and try to rescue her moods and emotions.
I dunno; just my impression from reaching your thread. I'm trying to learn more about boundaries, so its title caught my attention. In any event, I think you should have stuck to your plans and not taken her to dinner. She had all day to eat something, and then you allow her to ruin your plans. I think if maybe she saw you "doing your thing," with or without her, she'd be forced more to hop on board the marital wagon, so to speak.
Starsky
CL,
For a 51-year-old woman, you seem to treat your wife like a father would treat a child, or a pet. You guide her around, keep her busy, and try to rescue her moods and emotions.
Starsky
It comes down to what will move her forward. The activities we do together are those that I enjoy also--dancing, exercise, swimming, dance lessons. I think it's fine to try to influence one's spouse to move forward in a positive way, as long as I don't take responsibility for her problem. Her depression (or whatever it is) is her problem to solve. It's hard to know where the line is regarding being helpful versus being manipulated. There's a certain amount of experimentation, I will need to do, to get some clarity on this.
I decided to take one night off from dance classes, because my W asked me to. I think going to the class this time would have been selfish. If this becomes a pattern, we'll take another look at it.
CL
CL,
I realize that these are activities (and even the trips, too) that you enjoy, too. I was referring more to your posts about "I am keeping her busy with _____," or "I feel if I keep her doing thus-and-such, it will be good for her," etc. They come across as patronizing and controlling to me -- albeit from a heart obviously filled with good intentions and love for your wife.
Her depression (or whatever it is) is her problem to solve.
I agree. What I'm suggesting is, perhaps adjusting your approach so that she's forced to solve it more frequently. Let her remain in the "crucible" on some of these issues, even if they make her grouchy, irritable, uncomfortable, etc., rather than rescuing her from those feelings or trying to shield her from them to begin with.
Just a thought.
Starsky
CL,
What I'm suggesting is, perhaps adjusting your approach so that she's forced to solve it more frequently.
I will need help as I make adjustments along the way, so I appreciate your opinions. At this time, I'm thinking it's fine to break my plans every now and then, if she's having an exceptionally bad day or needs an ear for a specific problem. In general, I think it's best to keep my plans, even if she chooses not to attend. There are other nights we can go to dinner, or she can wait until I get home. I have to assess the urgency of the situation, and if I think spending that time with her will help her to move forward.
She has a job interview on Friday for a part-time Accounting position. I emailed her a reminder about the smoking cessation class coming up on 11/8 at our fitness facility. There is a dance workshop at our studio tonight, which I'm planning on going to.
CL
My W was hired for a PT Accounting position for a restaurant manager who owns several Mexican restaurants. Accounting is not her occupation anymore, but she has the skills. She'll be making the same salary she did at her last job. This will allow to pursue what she would like without the pressure of having to settle for something that doesn't fit. Her appetite seems to have returned, and she is sleeping better.
Our dance teacher wants us to compete in a local dance competition in January. He thinks it's important to have goals and deadlines. We're going to work on Foxtrot, a dance I've wanted work on for some time, and have little experience with.
At the studio today, I took a phone call on my cell phone from a plumber to confirm a meeting time to replace a hot water heater. I mentioned to him that my W wanted a 50 gallon heater. Afterwards, my W mentioned to me that I said W in front of the teacher and another student. She thought their eyes were big with the new information. She wasn't angry, and was amused by it.
CL
Hopefully your wife's job will help her self esteem and in the process help you both work towards a happy marriage. Do you feel like you are making progress saying "wife" out in public?
Do you feel like you are making progress saying "wife" out in public?
The progress that is being made is being seen in public as a couple on a regular basis. Some people know we're married; many don't know what our status is. Some people know that we travel together. I've had comments or questions by certain people who are noticing that we are acting like a couple again.
Thank goodness my W found a job. The financial stress, and lack of activity during the day were taking a toll on her. I think I handled her umemployment well this time--I kept her busy with exercise classes, swimming, dancing, dance lessons, and agreed to go to a dance convention to perform, and to Puerto Rico. I didn't nag her about finding a job and let her go at her own pace, even though I would have approached the situation differently, and with more self-initiative.
CL
I kept her busy with exercise classes, swimming, dancing, dance lessons
Bad, not so bad that you did it per-se but these are her issues. Some how she acts up and either she puts this stuff on you, or you take it upon yourself to deal with it for her (with good intention to be sure). The fact that you do it though, conditions her that you solve her problems. It is a recurring theme that your problems are your problems to solve and her problems are your problems to solve.
She is a grown up and needs to deal with this stuff. For it to be on your shoulders does not help her to mature or make your relationship healthy. To much egg shelling.
I didn't nag her about finding a job
This is good I think. Though if you read the paragraphs above, it takes a heck of a lot of nerve for her to treat the guy who is paying her way, the way she does.
Boundaries in Marriage is a good thread title, you are baby stepping in the right direction, but you still need more of them.
Some how she acts up and either she puts this stuff on you, or you take it upon yourself to deal with it for her (with good intention to be sure). The fact that you do it though, conditions her that you solve her problems. It is a recurring theme that your problems are your problems to solve and her problems are your problems to solve.
Saying I kept her busy is probably not an accurate way of describing things, because she wants to do all these activities. She's not good at self-initiative, and prefers to have a partner. I'm a willing partner who would do these activities anyway.
Your point is well taken, and I think your description of the R dynamics is accurate. I do get pulled into trying to influence her to getting committed to fixing her problems (smoking, exercise, job-hunting). I did make the choice of not doing her job hunting for her, and let her suffer the consequences of being unemployed for four months. I think partnering with her for dance lessons and outings, and exercise classes is fine and helpful. I think I'll back off on trying to get her to attend the smoking cessation class at our fitness center. I sent her an email reminder, and haven't heard from her. The other thing I'm better at is not being negative with her because she has these issues. I'm better able to hold onto my positives better, and am not as influenced by her negatives.
CL
I'm looking forward to her working again next week. She is so eager for stimulation and companionship when I get home. I have little latitiude to take a breather, and she gets upset with me if I'm less than the perfect companion.
It continues to be an adjustment taking her to my weeknight ballroom venue. I made a point of dancing with her often and early, so I could later be free to network. It worked until the end of the evening, when she wanted to perform our choreography on the social dance floor. I wasn't used to doing it as a social dance and got lost, and stopped. She walked off the dance floor, and complained about it all the way home, as if I did it to humiliate her. She isn't patient with me sometimes, or empathetic.
It's frustrating because I want my evenings to be a respite from the day, but I keep "stepping on land mines" around her. Love will allow me to relax and accept her imperfections, and boundaries will remind me to accept what is mine and let the rest go.
CL
Love will allow me to relax and accept her imperfections, and boundaries will remind me to accept what is mine and let the rest go.
CL
...hopefully she will begin to own her own issues and let YOU be human with imperfections. She is lucky you are a patient man!
. . . and she gets upset with me if I'm less than the perfect companion.
Yeah, I've kinda noticed that.
Starsky
I wasn't used to doing it as a social dance and got lost, and stopped. She walked off the dance floor, and complained about it all the way home, as if I did it to humiliate her. She isn't patient with me sometimes, or empathetic.
So how did you handle that?
Starsky
I'll need to think about if there is something I need to communicate or do to help move us forward as dance partners in new dance settings (we seem fine in the Salsa community where she has a network). The problem is in settings where I have a network and she doesn't. She says that I'm having more fun dancing with other woman. Is this my problem or hers?
CL
Love will also help me to let go of frustration and my own self-centeredness, and help me to slow down and not speak with my W about these conflicts until I'm able to do so constructively. In the meantime, until I get constructive feedback from her, I can only do what I did last night--give her a good number of dances to keep her busy, until she builds her own network. Most of our dances are fine, and it's rare for us to have to abort a dance. I don't want to stop going to my ballroom venue because of her poor behavior.
CL
I wasn't used to doing it as a social dance and got lost, and stopped. She walked off the dance floor, and complained about it all the way home, as if I did it to humiliate her. She isn't patient with me sometimes, or empathetic.
So how did you handle that?
Starsky
Looks like I'm talking to myself, so I will bid you adieu and good luck, CL. You seem to not welcome posts from people who don't validate your existing point-of-view, and I don't want to make myself a nuisance.
Starsky
It takes time for me to give a thoughtful response to some questions. Ineeded to process the evening's event in a way to get myself some balance. I wasn't ready to address your question. I also have limited time to respond to posts during a work day. There are times I may not post for several days. You did deserve some sort of response, even if it was simply I'll get back to you, or I'm thinking about your question. Please give me some latitiude with a response time, and that I'm taking care of things in ways that I need to.
CL
I took off my shoes, because it was the end of the evening and called it a night.
CL
One of the things dancing does, is create an opportunity for my W and I to reconnect. In the past I probably would have kept a distance from her. On the way to the dance venue last night my W mentioned that she is intimidated by the weeknight dance venue. She is uncomfortable not having a network yet. Could she be handling it better? Of course.
I think a balance between love and boundaries is needed. What is the best response I could have had when she walked off the floor? I'm open to suggestions. I chose to take off my shoes, and end the evening, since we had been there for some time.
I think the plan for next time will be to continue to give her most of my dances, keep the evening short, and encourage her to break the ice and ask guys to dance. I also expect her to not yet be comfortable there, so not to take poor behavior personally. One can call it "walking on eggshells" but I think I need to give her latitude and be supportive. If I give her grief over her behavior, she may not take it well and stop going.
CL
It takes time for me to give a thoughtful response to some questions. Ineeded to process the evening's event in a way to get myself some balance. I wasn't ready to address your question. I also have limited time to respond to posts during a work day. There are times I may not post for several days. You did deserve some sort of response, even if it was simply I'll get back to you, or I'm thinking about your question. Please give me some latitiude with a response time, and that I'm taking care of things in ways that I need to.
CL
Understood -- thanks. I was a grouch myself last nite. I understand that not everyone is online all of the time, however when I see a poster respond to someone else who posted AFTER me, and then respond to me in a day or so, I wonder if I came across wrong or if my words were unwelcome. Everyone's thread should be their own "safe haven," and so I'd never want to cause undue angst or be an unwelcome guest.
But I do challenge. It's my nature.
Starsky
One of the things dancing does, is create an opportunity for my W and I to reconnect. In the past I probably would have kept a distance from her. On the way to the dance venue last night my W mentioned that she is intimidated by the weeknight dance venue. She is uncomfortable not having a network yet. Could she be handling it better? Of course.
I think a balance between love and boundaries is needed. What is the best response I could have had when she walked off the floor? I'm open to suggestions. I chose to take off my shoes, and end the evening, since we had been there for some time.
I think the plan for next time will be to continue to give her most of my dances, keep the evening short, and encourage her to break the ice and ask guys to dance. I also expect her to not yet be comfortable there, so not to take poor behavior personally. One can call it "walking on eggshells" but I think I need to give her latitude and be supportive. If I give her grief over her behavior, she may not take it well and stop going.
CL
CL, I don't disagree with any of that. But it's a question of DEGREE. I think the balance you speak of should be "50/50," and I see you doing basically "90/10," and I think -- over time -- your wife loses respect (and therefore love) for you when you do that. She seems to respond to you when you take a SLIGHTLY firmer stance, and stand up for yourself.
Now, this "50/50" doesn't mean it should be manifested 50/50 in every situation -- that's an average. Some situations call for 90/10 or 10/90, depending on the situation. For example, if your wife's parent passed away, you would be right to give her near-total latitude in her behavior for a period of time.
Personally, I think when she walked off the floor that you should have continued dancing, and not responded to her rude behavior. It shows you VALUE yourself, and that you are enforcing your boundaries.
Balance of love and boundaries ... YES. But in what MIXTURE -- that is the question.
Starsky
P.S.
I would also add that there's nothing UNLOVING about enforcing a boundary in a calm, civil way. In fact I would contend that you do NEITHER yourself nor your wife any favors when you tolerate (and -- worse -- enable) her boorish behavior.
Go back thru your own thread and look for the times she has responded positively to your boundaries. Did she not go get the job, for example?
But it's a question of DEGREE. She seems to respond to you when you take a SLIGHTLY firmer stance, and stand up for yourself.
Balance of love and boundaries ... YES. But in what MIXTURE -- that is the question.
Starsky
I like how you're articulated this problem and framework for solutions. It makes sense to me. I agree that love and boundaries are not mutually exclusive. The difficulty as you suggest is making a decision as to the ratio of allowing versus boundry-setting. I would also add that the question is not only deciding on the mixture but the form the boundaries should take.
I think one of the resons I put so much emphasis on love , is because in the past I would react out of self-centeredness, and be passive-aprressive or withdraw, and then carry around resentment. I've learned that anything I say or do has to come from compasssion, otherwise we'll just go in circles.
The situations I have the most difficult time with are the unpredicatable ones, where I don't have time to think, and get caught up in my own embarrassment or other emotions. I think I'm better at setting boundaries with her in private versus social settings. Maybe that's where I need to do some planning.
CL
I dunno, CL, your wife seems to me, at least, to be fairly predictable. Do you think it might be reasonable to look at some of the above situations that you struggled with, and have better predicted how she would behave ahead of time?
We learned this in a parenting class once, about how to deal with our kids. The instructor was saying that "If you think about it, I bet most of your kids -- especially the 'problem child' -- behaves in a way that is VERY predictable. You as husband and wife should have a plan ahead of time, that says 'What is (child) likely to do if we do (ex.: assign a chore, enforce a punishment, etc.)?' Have a plan ahead of time of HOW YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT." He suggested that when you and your spouse have your "date nite," that you spend some time planning maybe over a glass of wine of how you're going to deal with the problem child.
Well, I've learned that I can do the same thing in my marriage. My wife (and she says the same thing about me -- in SPADES!) is VERY predictable as to how she is going to behave under stress and in certain situations. I, like you, like to use e-mail, and the written words, b/c I can't always "think on my feet" fast enough and say what I want to say. But if I THINK ABOUT IT AHEAD OF TIME, and PLAN OUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY, AND EVEN MY BODY LANGUAGE AND TONE OF VOICE that I want to use . . .it's very effective.
Food for though, CL.
Starsky
I dunno, CL, your wife seems to me, at least, to be fairly predictable.
Have a plan ahead of time of HOW YOU ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT."
But if I THINK ABOUT IT AHEAD OF TIME, and PLAN OUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY, AND EVEN MY BODY LANGUAGE AND TONE OF VOICE that I want to use . . .it's very effective.
Food for though, CL.
Starsky
This excellent advice. Your are right in that her behavior is predictable. She acts up in dance situations where she feels insecure--not dancing enough, a dance that didn't go well, doing dances she is still new at. She also likes to pull our dance teachers into her problems, and "tell on me" about how I've "mistreated " her.
I'll need to plan for when she is in a poor mood at the dance venues, or when she makes public comments about me, or complains to the dance teacher. I think the first step is maintaining composure. When I lose my composure, I either want to escape, or get embarrassed, or hold it in and tolerate it, or suffer silently. I think the plan for the dance venue is to have a good time, no matter what kind of mood she's in. I think the plan for her negative comments at the dance studio are to express my disagreement calmly, without arguing, and trying to redirect us back to the dance lesson. I'll keep percolating ideas.
CL
Yes!
You're obviously very good at planning, CL -- I can see it in how you plan your lessons, your vacations, and stuff for your wife. Put some of that energy into planning your "Anticipated Negative Reactions From My Wife" with her, and how you'd like yourself to handle it.
I bet it works! It'll take time, tho.
Starsky
Yes!
You're obviously very good at planning, CL -- I can see it in how you plan your lessons, your vacations, and stuff for your wife. Put some of that energy into planning your "Anticipated Negative Reactions From My Wife" with her, and how you'd like yourself to handle it.
I bet it works! It'll take time, tho.
Starsky
I'm making a list in my head of anticipated difficult situations with my wife--our weekly ballroom dance venue, any ballroom dance venue, dance lessons, driving in the car wth her, Thanksgiving dinner with her family, dance practice sessions.
Last night at my lesson, the dance teacher asked me if there was anything I needed my W to do differently with our dancing. I wanted to focus on what I could do differently. Maybe I missed an opportunity. I would have said that she needs to be patient with me when I'm learning new dances.
She's threatening to stop lessons with me, because of my "poor" behavior. I need a plan in case she abruptly quits on me. I'm thinking that I would continue to go to dance venues with or without her, and that I would continue lessons with or without her. A mistake would be to allow her to "shut me down."
CL
CL,
Your last two paragraphs were the wisest and most insightful I've read from you. I think you're on the right track!
Starsky
[quote=Concerned_Listener)
She's threatening to stop lessons with me, because of my "poor" behavior. I need a plan in case she abruptly quits on me. I'm thinking that I would continue to go to dance venues with or without her, and that I would continue lessons with or without her. A mistake would be to allow her to "shut me down."
CL[/quote]
Sounds like a good plan!
The weekend with my W went well with our dance lesson and Halloween party. We stayed at the party until 2AM, dancing and talking with others.
I received a call from my credit card company today. They were concerned about my increasing credit card debt. I've been using the card more since my W has been unemployed. I had already been carrying several balances. They are going to reduce my line of credit by $17K (which may be a good idea).
I sent my W an email to let her know, that I will be changing my pattern of credit card use. I think she also needs to know of the significant change in my credit line. I've been too liberal in my use of the card, during this unemployment. It's time for me to protect my credit rating, which has been good. I'm going to start putting more emphasis on cash purchases, and will factor this change into vacation planning. I anticipate some reaction from her, but I think she needs to know about this, so that she can make adjustments or at least understand mine.
She starts her new job today, so there should be more cash flow. I need to make sure the debt starts getting down.
CL
Decrease by 17k?? How much WAS it???
Starsky
I'm not comfortable revealing any more numbers. It's embarrasing that I've let myself get to this point. My pattern has to been to slowly pay down the debt, but carry balances. The problem is we don't (used to) have savings for unemployment. I do need to be grateful that my W had a part-time job during this time, so things could have been much worse.
The banks have been quite generous to my W and I (and probably many people) with credit over the years. One bank is now "shortening my credit leash." My W acknowledged the email, and said to let her know if there were any problems. My plan is to get at least a short-term savings account building, for minor emergencies. We will begin slowly paying down debt. I will return to occassional credit card use, and pay for miscellaneous expenses with cash.. We're going to need a plan to address the unresolved debt problem. I'll give her time to get settled in her new job. I think the next step is to meet with our financial planner for a reality check and to make some changes in our patterns.
The goal (if it's realistic) would be to pay down debt, yet still be able to take two affordable vacations per year, and continue with dance lessons. I don't think we need anything significantly material beyond that. We have a modest mortgage, and drive used cars.
Tonight is our ballroom venue. We'll see if my W is up to it. I've been working on my own in the mornings, and late at night on my own steps, to prepare for joint practice sessions. The plan is to dance with other woman, if my W has an episode of unpleasantness, rather than shut down. I will give her priority, but still mix with others. The plan is to work on being respectful and attentive without being overly accommodating.
CL
Sounds like a good plan all the way around, CL -- financial and dancing/wife-interaction. I do think maybe you should scale back on the vacations until you've built some of your savings back up, but you sound like you're taking a prudent approach.
As a guy who tried to "please" my wife, rather than say "no" to her about such things -- trust me -- there's NOTHING about my current financial sitch that she's pleased about.
Starsky
Sounds like a good plan all the way around, CL -- financial and dancing/wife-interaction.
Starsky
I don't see myself taking a hard line with the vacations, other than to keep them affordable with minimal credit card use. She doesn't seem too alarmed about my drop in credit. We'll see how that goes, when something I used to take care of, now needs her assistance (new appliance for example). I sent her an email suggesting a meeting with our financial planner in the next 3-6 months for a "financial check-up."
We've put ourselves in a position that we need two FT incomes, if we wish to maintain our lifestyle, and pay down debt, and save for retirement.
It's good to see her working again, and getting away from sitting at home so much. She had a good first day. She even signed an mail with love.
CL
I went to our weekly exercise class with my W. I'm impressed that she went, given she is adjusting to having to work again. She was too tired to go to the dance venue afterwards; I went without her for about an hour. There wasn't any conflict about it.
I had a fair time without her. I got to talk to a male acquaintance, and got to know him a little better. I danced with ladies, so I could practice dances I do well and those that are new this year to me.
I keep running into the young man who I found fondling my W this past April. I get angry every time I see him. It's affecting my enjoyment for the evening. I've decided that I need to at least wish him happiness for his own life, even with the poor judgment he showed that night. I can keep my boundaries of keeping a distance from him and crossing him off my acquaintance list.
She didn't respond to my suggestion about meeting with our financial planner. I'll let it go for now. There will be opportunity to bring this up again at some point.
CL
I practiced the two new routines we're learning with my W. My W told me this morning that she doesn't enjoy practicing with me and may consider not signing up for the competition in January or quitting the formation teams. She told me that she wants to practice when she's available.
I do get frustrated when I practice. She only had one Rumba song on her Ipod. She gives feedback during the dance, which adds to stress. She doesn't like it if I stop in the middle of dance to start again. She doesn't like it if I express frustration--she sees it as whining.
I sent her an email this morning, letting her know that I was sorry she didn't enjoy the practice session. I tried to validate her concerns, and let her know what I'm struggling with. I told her that I wold try to leave my doubts at the door, lower my expectations of myself, be more patient with myself. I told her it was important to me to stay the course,because I liked the format of learning separate 50 second routines, that we could transfer to social dancing.
I hope we can work this out. I'll have to be prepared that she may convey her frustration with the teacher, and may tell him tomorrow that she's quitting. My response will continue to be to validate her concerns, and let her know I'll try to lighten up. I'll need to quickly have a back-up plan if she does back-out of some things.
CL
I thought you said your back-up plan was to continue without her, because these are things you enjoy?
I thought you said your back-up plan was to continue without her, because these are things you enjoy?
Yes, I did say that. I won't shut down the dancing, and I wouldn't expect her to either. I would have to decide what to do about the competition. If she won't compete with me, should I pursue a different partner? I would continue group lessons, monthly private lessons with the lady teacher, going to Salsa venues with my W, going to the weeknight ballroom venue by myself or with my W, practicing on my own.
As I'm writing I realize the question is, do I let her keep me out of dance competitions? Am I free to pursue another practice partner?
CL
I thought you said your back-up plan was to continue without her, because these are things you enjoy?
Yes, I did say that. I won't shut down the dancing, and I wouldn't expect her to either. I would have to decide what to do about the competition. If she won't compete with me, should I pursue a different partner?
Yes.
But then again, I think you just answered that for yourself, didn't you.
Yes.
But then again, I think you just answered that for yourself, didn't you.
I did? I see it as a gray matter reflecting the title of my thread, Love and Boundaries. Will pursuing an interest in dance competitions without my W, harm the R? I may be getting ahead of myself, but I'm trying to anticipate problems better.
Of course, my effort needs to be going into resolving our dance conflict, in the meantime. I need to relax into this problem, and trust that I can find a workable solution, no matter what happens.
CL
If she won't compete with me, should I pursue a different partner? I would continue group lessons, monthly private lessons with the lady teacher, going to Salsa venues with my W, going to the weeknight ballroom venue by myself or with my W, practicing on my own.
This seems perfectly reasonable, loving and healthy to me, and I think doing this would help you with your R, long-term. Oh, she may b*tch and moan at first (she's quite good at that
), but I think you showing that strength -- that boundary -- would be good for you, long- and even medium-term.
This is probably a discussion for another day, but I'd really like to challenge you on your whole thread title, because I don't think "Love" and "Boundaries" are opposites. Done properly, setting and enforcing boundaries can be
" ... can be QUITE loving, for both you and your wife."
DAMNED EDIT feature!
As I'm writing I realize the question is, do I let her keep me out of dance competitions?
That's a victim mentality, it's why your wife calls you a whiner. It's why you are so frustrated and not getting what you want. You decide what you want and act accordingly.
How often is you wife affectionate, say ILY, initiates ML and filling your love buckets?
You decide what you want and act accordingly.
How often is you wife affectionate, say ILY, initiates ML and filling your love buckets?
Is it that simple? I decide what I want and than do it? I assume that factors in how it would affect her and the R. I also assume I should consider what my intent is. Beyond that, you are right. I need to show more strength and courage, and be more fearless.
We're not doing so great in the intimacy department.
CL
This seems perfectly reasonable, loving and healthy to me, and I think doing this would help you with your R, long-term. Oh, she may b*tch and moan at first (she's quite good at that
), but I think you showing that strength -- that boundary -- would be good for you, long- and even medium-term.
I revised my thread title at your suggestion. I remember last year (09') when I was out going to lessons on my own, and going out dancing on my own. I bacame a different person. I was a "single" guy, and enjoying myself, without crossing any lines. She devalues it openly, but I believe it made an impression.
I decided to not wait until the lesson, where my W would have control, to address the conflict. I shared with her my opinion as to why dance practices were not going well. I pointed out the different options--limiting the number of dances we compete in, dropping out, switching to Pro-Am instead of competing together. I voted for limiting our dances to three, the make the work manageable.
I called the instructor this morning, and spoke with him about the trouble we were having, and how our original target of 3-5 dances in two months was causing me stress, and affecting the dance partnership. He revised the number to two. I told my W, and she agreed to this.
Her other complaint to our instructor, was that we don't practice enough. I spend a fair amount of time reviewing dance video, and practicing on my own, but I only get credit from her for the amount of time we practice together, and the quality of the practices. She wants to practice 4X per week (too high a target IMO, but I agreed). I think we'll end up practicing 2X per week, but I'll ask her at least 4X, as she suggests.
The teacher told me that that he and his partner had similar conflicts, and that my struggles are part of the learning curve. I believe my W and I can do an excellent job with two dances, versus mediocre ones with several.
CL
I was able to lead and problem solve to create a good practice session last night with my W. She noted that she saw improvement. I think I'm going to need to be the leader with this dance project, as my W is preoccupied with her job and health problems.
She has decided to attend the smoking cessation classes at our fitness center. The first one is tonight. I didn't nag her about it, and was surprised when she brought it up. He coughing has increased, so hopefully she goes. She asked me if I would be upset if she didn't quit. I told her I would never be upset with her for trying. I think a support group is just what she needs, for this type of problem.
She's stressed about her new PT job. She's helping with bookkeeping for a disorganized restaurant owner. Hopefully, she will adapt to this. I'm not going to let her stress, pull me away from my activities. Her procrastination with job-hunting has contributed to this. If she wants a different job, she will need to take initiative. I'm glad that I have the fitness center and the dance studio as getaways to manage my own stress. I will keep up my routines.
CL
CL,
That's probably the strongest, most emotionally-healthy posts I've read from you since I started following your sitch.
Attaboy!!
Starsk
Oh boy, this is big for me CL as I LOVE dancing and H does not. Much of my EA 's connection was about dancing... I've got the same dilemma now that I've dumped OM to work on M.
Your thread is very large, please start a new one.
Thanks,
sg
I hope you have a fee-only CFP or CPA... Just saying (i workmin the financial arena).
We only get charged when he sets up new accounts. I think he's a financial planner with an MBA, and not an accountant. I'm going to persuade my W to meet with him soon, so we can face our situation squarely.
CL