It's been my second time here. Last time "I moved out" and back to separated when I realised H was holding back and wasnt 100% there with me. This time he is. This time I am the one struggling cause I dont know how to handle his A, the past and how to forgive and let go.
I saw a MC today. We will see her Thursday. There are not many experience MCs here, the reason I liked her was that she was positive and said "you seem to have good basis for a happy M, good for you not to quit when you found out he was cheating, cheating can be the end of a M, it can also mean a chance/opportunity to start over and put things in the right order with the goal to build a better relationship".
She said she is not experienced but that she will do everything possible in her powers to help us "piece".H agreed immediately to try her.
I am feeling exhausted and discouraged. I wish I was a goldfish and could forget the past. I dont know why it hit me so hard the last couple of weeks. Maybe because I feel vulnerable again. Maybe because I realise, our M will always have a huge scar... The "love of my life" is just another weak man.
Anyway, dont want to sound bad, it's my piecing thread and I need to be positive. I promise I will work on that.
K
FIRST!!!!!! I'll take a Bailey's and Coffee please. I'm cold today.
You started the path.....keep your feet on it Maria. I really have a lot of hope for you and H.
The "love of my life" is just another weak man.
We are all weak Maria, you know that, but it's how you
choose to grow that makes you strong!
our M will always have a huge scar... The "love of my life" is just another weak man.
Scars remind us of where we've been, but they don't dictate where we are going.
Dang! I missed being first. Oh well, it's a little early to be drinking just yet.
Hugs, sweetie, and more hugs.
OK, send over a Lemon Drop this afternoon. A stiff one.
Since I'm laying around nursing my foot, I'm spending time this week preparing to file, maybe next week. Bleck.
Can you get out today (perhaps w/ a girlfriend) and go for a walk? love, Goldey
Kalni,
I wish I knew what to say to help you through this.
I think it's great that he wants to work on the relationship. There are a lot of people who would love to be where you are now.
It will take time to heal. It will take time to rebuild that trust. He is weak, but so are we all. Set your boundaries, and give him encouragement and support.
Someone told me that the relationship I had with my wife is over; we will never have that level of innocent, almost childlike, trust again. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn to trust each other, and now we can see the weak spots in our R and learn how to strengthen them.
Hopefully you can do the same.
So glad to see you over here! Keep choosing to look for the positives:
*He is moving things back into your home
*He wants to go to the MC
*You said yourself he is "in" this time, and you should know since you could tell he wasn't all there last time
Too early to go shopping for spring shoes?
You still don't have 100 threads, you know...
There's plenty of time to get things back on track and build.
Someone told me that the relationship I had with my wife is over; we will never have that level of innocent, almost childlike, trust again. But that doesn't mean that we can't learn to trust each other, and now we can see the weak spots in our R and learn how to strengthen them.
Exactamundo!!!!!!!!!
This is the best summation I've heard in a while.
Problem is... I WANT that childlike innocence BACK damn it!!!
It will come, not overnight and not without challange, but it will come.
A scar is definitely better than an open wound, and nothing is tougher.
Burt
Problem is... I WANT that childlike innocence BACK damn it!!!
Do what I did - take up golf. I feel like an innocent virgin every time I stand in front of a ball with a club in my hand.
I'll have a glass of non-alcoholic ouzo please.
Hi guys,
put my kids to bed and my D7 told me as she was closing her eyes "mom, I asked dad if heis marrying another woman and he said no and then I asked him if he loves you and he said he loves you and us very much".
The kids are still waiting for the "we got back together speech" and I cant get myself to do it. Afraid we will hurt them again
My H's answer is one of my big problems:me and the kids are a package. We are what he wants but me as a person, as a woman, am not a woman he would come back to if the kids didnt exist. Not this year not last year. I know there is no use thinking this way but I believe that explains the lack of sexual interest and tenderness. I am a mom. I am his partner, I am not his woman.
Thinking about it, feels like a rejection. And of course I am too sensitive to any kind of rejections right now.
The end of my old M is what I am grieving. Been crying a lot lately. But this shall too will pass. Need to find my balance and inner peace, maybe then I will have something to give.
Thanks for stopping by friends,
K
Kerry,
try mastiha liqueur! It's great frozen, gets you drunk fast and smells good...
K
I understand you not wanting to get the kids' hopes up yet. They have eyes, they can see you two are spending a lot more time together,I think that is enough for now...
I know you are grieving the old M. Just remember that some of the choices made during the old M led to where you are now...so be glad that THOSE parts of the old M are gone. Although I am sure you want to get back the love, tenderness, etc that you used to have in the early years.
Hey kalni,
"but I believe that explains the lack of sexual interest and tenderness. I am a mom. I am his partner, I am not his woman."
Wow when I read this I could have wrote it... Well I don't want her to think of me as a woman but... yes I am a partner now...
But this is not totaly a bad thing..
I know I've told this story over the years around here, but two of the people I love most in this world and who have the strongest and happiest marriage I've ever personally seen (it will be 50 years in June!) went through a long term affair and a short separation.
They are my in-laws. It was bout 32 years ago now, I guess. My MIL discovered that my FIL had been having an affair with someone near where he worked and it had been going on for a couple of years. He spewed all the usual stuff at her and he moved out and in with this woman.
Obviously there was no DBing to follow back then and my MIL went to his job about 3 months later and gave him an ultimatum that he either come home or get all his stuff out after work that day. He did end up moving back but my MIL said it was very rocky for quite a while after that.
My MIL has been very candid about it to me over the years. It's not something you can decide for forgive and forget. It'll take time. When my H and I first separated she told me that my situation brought it all back to her, so it isn't something that will ever totally disappear. She even asked her H then if he regretted it. She meant did he regret coming home but he thought she was asking if he regretted the affair. When he answered, "yes" she told me her heart dropped until they both realized the misunderstanding.
They're both retired now and spend almost every moment together and are very much still "in love". It's adorably cute. She's 70 and he's 74. He still pinches her butt.
I think there always will be times when you feel vulnerable. As times goes on, they'll probably be years (or even decades!) in between times, but I think that's normal. Even if you met and fell in love with another man tomorrow, because of what's happened you'd probably have the same insecurities with him--if H did it, this one can too and all that.
Hang in there. It'll take time to rebuild but I've seen that it can be done. Even without books and MC and all that. Hang in there.
Hey.. you snuck back in!! Welcome back to piecing sunbeam
I heard that too.. a FEW people were against me taking bf back, because they said, he "is a weak man" and I thought.. yeah, but so what? Theres worse things to be. He's also kind, loving, good partner, a man of principles, great politics, astute, intelligent, funny etc etc. What are your H's good qualities?
Freckle, thats a great post and also Bobbi, yes we have to take responsibility for what lead us here. Ok, some woman are predatory on M men, but men arent necessarily got unless they are ripe for getting at.. I know bf withdrew around the time he met Helen at work, but I also know he noticed Helen because our R had grown stale and I was too dominant (he said he no longer felt appreciated/listened to).
I actually remember my 'loss of innocence' moment, when I was 7 and discovered that adults hurt and divorce each other (I discovered my uncle was leaving my 8 month pregnant Aunty for a woman he met at work). But its necessary right, for growth, to lead to the nectar within..? Else we'd all be naively floating around like prozac'd robots
Six Tips for Creating a More Passionate Relationship
1.Operate from the Best in Yourself.
If you're like most people, you have a scared, angry, vindictive, or lazy side that limits the quality of your sexual relationship.
However, you don't have to let that side of you run your marriage.
Instead, operate from the best in you, from the resilient part of yourself.
Bring forth the solid part of you that wants to have a better relationship.
Reach out from the best in you to the best in your partner, both in and out of bed.
That's where the best sex in your life comes from.
Remind yourself of what is good, admirable, and competent about you, and about your partner.
Relate to your mate as if he or she has the capacity to change and develop further as a person.
2.Sustain eye contact with each other out of bed.
Many couples stop making emotional contact, even if they still have sex. Here's a quick and meaningful (but not easy) way to get back in touch, or at least bring your awkwardness with each other to the forefront:
Make an agreement with your partner to look into each other's eyes for at least five minutes in a quiet, private place. Do this without talking. This is not a staring contest, but rather, taking time to really look into each other and let yourself be seen.
Before you begin, take a moment to get seated comfortably, soften your eyes, and relax your face.
Make yourself receptive to your partner; let him or her connect with you.
Deliberately lower your emotional barriers.
Expect to run into your own resistances, and note them in the back of your mind.
Afterwards, discuss the experience with your partner. Do this several times a week, until silent gazing is warm and inviting.
3.Try Hugging 'till Relaxed.
Here's a terrific was to get more in touch with your partner while also getting a better grip on yourself.
It turns a simple hug into a window into your relationship and a way to improve it.
Prepare yourself by taking a few minutes to slow down, relax, and slow your heart rate.
Then stand facing your partner a few feet away. Get a balanced, well-grounded stance over your own two feet.
Close your eyes, take a breath, and relax again.
Open your eyes, and when the two of you are ready, shuffle forward without loosing your relaxed balanced position, so that you have one foot between your partner's feet.
Get close enough that you can easily put your arms around your partner without feeling off balance, or pulling or pushing your partner off-balance either.
Shift your stance or position as needed to be physically comfortable.
Let yourself relax into the hug and remember to breathe.
Lots of feelings about your partner, your relationship and yourself are bound to surface.
Note your resistances but don't give into them.
Afterwards, talk about the experience with your partner.
It often takes several months of practice, several times a week, but you'll be amazed by the many improvements this brings.
4.Make eye contact in bed.
This great activity builds on the two previous suggestions.
"Heads on pillows" combines eye gazing with a relaxed physical connection, and brings it into the bedroom. Pick a time when you won't be disturbed.
Lay down in bed (or the living room floor) with your clothes on or off.
Lie on your side, facing your partner.
Put your head on your own pillow and have your partner do likewise.
Move your pillows far enough apart so your mate doesn't look like a Cyclops.
Do the same relaxed eye gazing described in Tip #2.
If you feel the urge to touch your partner, touch his face or hold his hand.
Stay away from genitals and buttocks until both of you can reach a relaxed connection with some reliability.
Subsequently you can expand this activity to include foreplay and intercourse, but it's more important to establish a resilient collaborative alliance than arouse each other. Ultimately, you can bridge this into reaching orgasm while looking into each other.
5.Change your style of sexual interactions.
Do you usually wait for your partner to make the first move? Although you and your partner may touch each other, are you typically more the giver or the receiver when you have sex?
Are you a take-charge person or the more passive participant? Identify your typical role in sex and deliberately change it. Change the predominant overall tone or themes that characterize your sexual relationship.
Ask your partner to join with you in intentionally making these changes, or do them unilaterally.
Remember, your partner will probably be as nervous as you are, so don't expect him to support you emotionally.
Be patient with your partner and yourself.
Approach this as practice validating, accepting, and supporting yourself in your relationship with your partner.
6.Pay attention to depth of involvement with your partner during sex.
When you and your partner are actually having sex, you are using one (or more) of three primary psychological mind-sets.
These are focused on (1) physical sensations, (2) playing out sexual fantasies, and (3) engaging your partner.
People focus most on physical sensations and sex games and fantasies. Instead, focus on engaging your partner during sex. Pay attention to what your partner seems to be thinking and feeling, rather than simply trying to bring him or her to orgasm.
Try to establish a deeper emotional connection.
Emphasize the special relationship you're trying to develop, rather than getting lost in your sensations, or playing out sexual scripts that turn you on.
Once you and your partner are good at "partner engagement," you can work as a team to create terrific sexual sensations and play out your most erotic turn-ons.
I think the above tips may help some of us "Piercers"...
K
H had an accute chest pain last night and his left arm got numb. He said he got very scared and the pain was very strong...
He didnt wake me up because the pain went away after 5-10 minutes. He told me today on the phone. I googled it and it said it may had been a mini heart attack or warning signs for one coming. Or it was just a stress attack. Granted he smokes and never exercises, a herat attack would not surprise me.
Whatever it was, I booked an apt with a cardiologist in 2 hours (the doc said he needa to be checked today). I told him I cant leave to go meet him and he said "he will wait for me" which alarmed me more because it is his way of telling me he is scared and wants me there.
I hope it turns out nothing.
K
<<A scar is definitely better than an open wound>>
Need to stop scratching the scar or it will heal very slowly.
<<I am a mom. I am his partner, I am not his woman.>>
Well that is two positives and one negative. Hopefully your MC can help you on point #3.
I hope the love of your life is ok....sometimes we get warnings from our body to change our ways. Heart problems can sure scare the you know what out of you.
Kalni,
I went through the same sensation on W's b-day while we were VERY seperated and went to the ER.
EKG clean, no pinched nerve, these are the tests they should run.
Still have no conclusive results as to what caused it and still have problems with my left arm and I'm the same, smoke and not very athletic. For now they wrote it of as a "temperal parathesis" and can come and go on it's own. They did however find an irregularity with a head CT that I still ahve to have an MRI for a more definative answer.
So don't freak just yet.
Praying for your H Maria. If it is some sort of a blockage then I'm sure they caught it in time. Good for him for telling you about it. You know how men are, they usually don't say anything about the pain until they end up in the hospital from something that could have been treated with less extreme measures.
Hope H is OK. May just be stress. Fingers crossed.
Great to see you in piecing again!
You know how men are, they usually don't say anything about the pain until they end up in the hospital from something that could have been treated with less extreme measures.
hey! I resent, I mean, resemble that remark
The first test he had showed nothing. It is a heart test. Could that be the EKG dday mentioned?
He needs to do the one where he runs till he drops? Doc said he looks fine told him to cut back on the smoking and rest. I didnt manage to go. He called me on the way and said to go back home, he was done and was heading to work. He said he was very scared last night.
K
Yeah, EKG is where they run a snesing wire for all major veins blah blah blah.
Believe me, I was scared to poo, especially when I called the ER and they said GET HERE NOW.
Hmmm, well, glad there was nothing obviously wrong. Probably just stress. He has been a workaholic for a while, maybe it is finally catching up to him.
Hopefully this helps him to put his priorities in better order.
Love that you are over in piercing.
Hang in there my dear.
Michelle,
he called and said "I am done with the tests, no need to come over, I am going to work" and then called again, and said he is going out after work with the guys to convince someone to join their newspaper. So, no, I dont think he has his priorities straight. But, he did say, he will think about the life insurance I have asked him before and he considered it a bad luck move. Maybe he realised it's just selfish. I couldnt raise the kids without his income.
K
Lol. I wouldn't expect old habits to change overnight. It takes time to form new habits. At least he is thinking of you and the kids. It will take him a while to process things - he tends to mull things over a lot, as we have all noticed, he doesn't move quickly most times lol.
It is huge that he confided in you what happened, wanted you to be there, and called to tell you the tests went okay.
K
Sounds like the second test was a Stress Test.
http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/guide/stress-test--%28dupe%29
Good to hear he is doing good for now.
He is nuts to be going out with the guys following such an incident.
I would imagine that it would be some pretty high priced life insurance because of this incident and him being a smoker.
My XW is still primary beneficiary on my life insurance because that is a backup for child support. I bought the 20 year term life when my son was a baby.
he considered it a bad luck move
Lame excuse. I hope your not falling for that one.
He is pretty weird about these things Kerry. Like he wears the same cross everytime he flies, he never wants to talk about death, accidents, doenst watch the news when there is a catastrophe etc etc. Avoiding anything that could shock/hurt him...
K
My day didnt start so well. My son just got a very short hair cut and this morning he woke up saying he head was itching. I took the time and used the little think comb and found 2 lice on his head... I got so upset and stressed since we were running late for school that I run into a car while trying to park outside their school.
It's my life these days. Stress and feeling like nothing I do works. BUT, I have found something interesting to help me out of this hole.
Oh no !! Poor N... So that was a powerful eclipse weekend hey and I see it has shunted you onto a new path - you changed your DB board AND you changed your tagline !!! Woohoo, you made it here.
About what you said about not knowing why all the past stuff hit you so hard the past few weeks.. I was thinking about that. I think some people are more 'in tune' than others and it WAS the right time to be going back over things, as painful as that was.. Mercury was going backwards since just before Christmas (around the time H moved back on a 'we'll see' basis and you had to get your head around that too).
Although Mercury is now going forwards since the weekend and the mental direction is more hopeful, its still in its 'shadow' phase so doesnt properly go forwards until 4th Feb I think. Mentally, Mercury retrograde makes us revisit things, rethink, relive the past, so we can process it and then move forwards once again. It was also a BIG eclipse window. And now.. all that is subsiding and Jupiter moved into Pisces on Monday, so it IS onwards and upwards from here kiddo, once we get into our stride. Jupiter is going to be with us most of the year, so we have to grab those opportunities that appear as though by magic.
Talking of which.. whats this interesting thing you speak of ???
Yes Al, I feel better the last couple of days.
1. I've been searching the Internet for distance learning courses on marital counselling. I have found a course in UK/Oxford something that lasts a year and is not expensive. I don’t feel ready yet to commit to such kind of thing but it sure made me feel empowered that if I DO decide to, there is a way...
2. I have stopped thinking about her as much. STOP signs and all the tricks I have read, I put to use. What helped me most was my pride.
She is not worth my present and future and she didn’t destroy my past. She was just the right/wrong person at the right time. Not even 60% there yet, but at least my mind rests many hours of the day.
3. I read PM again. That book although VERY hard for me due to the language, gives me ...peace and serenity. Especially the part about learning to "soothe yourself and self validating". It stopped last night, in a sec, all this anxiety about what H should do and doesn’t. If I am OK, I can decide if what he gives is enough. Maybe it will be enough, maybe not…
4. I went to D. Schnarch's website and there it was!!! An MP3 of one of his presentations to counsellors about infidelity. They put it up because of the recent Tiger Woods' story. I bought it -very very cheap- and listened to it last night.
I am focusing to no longer asking "How could you/he have done that to me/us?" or "She was x,y,z so I must have been z,x,y" and "since he doesn’t do x,y,z that means I am not worth of that or that he is hurting me because he doesn’t love me" (because I am not as good) etc etc. As DS says, their A was/is not a reflection of me and my “problems”. It just isn’t because THAT is NOT possible.
DS asks "if you couldn’t get your H get into bed with you, how on earth did you get the power to put him to bed with another woman?", meaning that the decisions our spouses make, are decisions they own and we have no reason to take things/outcome personally. Which is IMO, very radical, since we all think we were at some point responsible for the actions of our spouses or co-responsible. You see, he explains that at one point, our Ss had a 2 choice dilemma caused by the sitch in our Ms BUT the choice they made, was their own and only.
Which, made me feel a lot better, like putting things in order in my head.
I know you guys may think I am crazy, but after everything I have read/felt/heard/lived/experienced, DS's philosophy about life and Rs is what fits me most. And I am far from living that ideal, the goal he describes. I have mentioned it before, I am a person that thrives when feeling loved and I have accepted and defended that. This subsequently stripped me of all my control and power over my personal happiness and peace. And right now, I am fighting with myself, trying to hand over that control back to H when instinctively and intellectually I KNOW I shouldn’t.
There is no reason why I insist that HE makes ME trust him. It's impossible to expect that now. And if I follow DS's lead, there is NO reason why I should struggle because HE didn’t manage to live up to HIS standards, HIS integrity, HIS honesty. Yes, his mistakes" affected me deeply but the truth is HIS CHOICES SHOULD AFFECT HIM and he should have to deal with it.
He will have to answer to himself why he failed himself. As I wrote to him once, sometimes I get angry because of what he did to himself, not to me. He betrayed himself.
5. I decided what I will talk about in MC on Friday at 18:00. I want to set my goals; I want to describe what I want from my R in the future. I will set my boundaries and state my expectations and make clear what I choose for me to become and feel.
I will make it known to him that I still choose to be in a monogamous relationship with him and that is what I want. I was in a monogamous R for 13 years. I am not changing that now. Even though he wasn’t, I was.
I want the deep level of intimacy and connection you only achieve consciously. I am committed to work hard to achieve that and I feel I am ready to allow my partner to see who I am.
I am ready to experience sex in ways (
)I was scared to before. I always felt very "sensual" inside and very prudent with him and most of my partners. Always kept a safety distance from who I was and who I thought I should be in bed. And that affected all areas of my behaviour. VERY STRESSFUL!!!
I am learning that my perspective has not been right and fair to myself and others. I have to answer to myself why I accepted feeling comfortably unhappy for some time, why I put my needs in the back burner and didn’t work to get them met, why I lost myself in the context of our R. Maybe I need to answer to myself, why I didn’t decide to divorce the man he was...
I don’t have to answer to myself why H had to have an A. And I am contemplating whether I should get into discussions about that in MC. He will have to do that for himself at some point. And maybe, when he does, we will really be able to move forward together.
I will insist on the HONESTY principle. I have been for a while and I will continue to. And I may even use what DS says in his speech "I don’t want to have an A, I don’t want to compromise my principles, I want to be happy and calm and I choose to be with you in a one-on-one R. You have the same choice, but I won’t tell you not to have an A again, you can do as you wish, the only thing you need to remember is that you must allow me to have a choice from now on, you need to tell me, you need to be honest. Then I will choose what I will do. Right now, I can only decide about myself and my values."
He may choose to lie again. He may choose to keep secrets again. It will be HIS choice and that doesn’t mean I will be stupid, naive or whatever. He knows I don’t trust him, I am accepting that trust will follow, cant exist between us now, and he will need to decide which path he will follow: does he want to be considered trustworthy?
The minute I finished the tapes, something shifted in me. "Like doc says". Maybe I heard and read the right things at the right time when I was sinking deeper and deeper in self pity and despair. I will NOT take his failure on my shoulders. I can still be proud of myself for honouring my values and promises and principles. I will not look for pain anymore like I did lately. If I need to know something, absolutely NEED to know, fine. The rest, will have to step aside.
I think we will have problems. Because I am not willing to change my boundaries so that he can be included. As my partner, as my lifetime partner. Not as a cheating partner, if you know what I mean. He will have to look into himself and decide the lever of intimacy he can stand. It's something he already mentioned once. That for many years he kept his distance. That he wanted to change that between us. We’ll see.
I think I overdid it. I’ll be back...
K
I know you guys may think I am crazy,
Not at all, I relate to every single thing you posted here.
<<since we all think we were at some point responsible for the actions of our spouses or co-responsible.>> I never bought that line...maybe I should have my own website!
You know my opinion on what most of our spouses did. As far as boundaries go, I am surprised at how wide they are for most people on this site. We all have our reasons ... he /she is a good father / mother....the kids....etc etc etc.
Bottom line is that I agree with what the book you are reading says. It was THEIR choice to commit those indiscretions and they will have to live with it. The only problem is something tells me that most if not all of the WASs have all this tucked away somewhere in the back of their minds right next to the file filled with excuses on why they acted this way.
"It happened, it's over and I refuse to talk about it." My final concern is the degree of recidivism....but hey, we don't know what the future holds for any of us let alone a future relationship....choose to BE HAPPY!
K,
I totally agree...and what you wrote helped me 'get it'.
For example, over here in the US, there was a magazine cover with a huge closeup of Elin Woods with a distraught look on her face and the line underneath said something about "Elin's humiliation, etc etc"
Then I read somewhere, a reporter criticizing the headline. He said, "Why does everyone talk about HER humiliation?" She did not have these affairs, why do we all assume she should be humiliated? HE should be humiliated for what he has done...
And I like what you said about, you choose to be faithful and committed, you have to let him make his own choice but to be fair he must tell you if his decision ever changes...haven't heard it put like that before.
She was betrayed. She is hurt. But you're right, it's not her humiliation. It's not her guilt. It's his choice, his guilt, his humiliation, his betrayal.
Sounds like that stuff really clicked with you on a sub-conscious level.
Glad to see that you are moving forward - for yourself. Cheers to you for not letting her make you miserable!
"Marriage is where you find out who you really, which makes affairs really attarctive"...
"A man may very well be a fool and not know it,BUT NOT if he is married"...
Marriage is a powerful vehicle to intimacy and that's why people cant handle it and look for "Meaningful secondary relationships"
I love this part. I think I will use it in MC. Cant wait to see H's reaction-LOL!!!
Goal=Monogamy : Should no longer be based on exchange or reciprocity.
Fusion:
You want to screw around but you dont want her to screw around so you are willing to give up screwing around so that she wont screw around but 5 years later, you feel she owes you because you've been a good boy...
Differentation:
I want to be in a monogamus relationship, that's why I am not having an affair, if I have one then I'll blow it so I am not having an afair. I have the vulnerability of you having an affair and then I will no longer be in a monogamus R but I cant control that. And in fact I am smart enough not to tell not to do it because that will be like pulling the sheets back for you.
You dont owe me because I am not doing it for you, I am doing it for me. I wouldnt do that to ME.
If YOU have an affair you tell me, you get a choice, I get a choice. I am not even gonna tell you not to have one. All I want is please tell me what you decide, it's your problem, you struggle with it the way I had to decide. If you change your mind, please tell me again. All I want is a "fair shake".
(((((Kalni)))))
You sneaky lady!
I have a secret for you.... PM is a hard read if English is your first language! I haven't finished it the first time!
I will definitely read that book! But first I will finish, "Getting past your breakup". I can't handle reading more than one relationship book at a time!
What is this book you guys are referring to "PM"? Sounds interesting... thanks.
Hi Hope,
Its Passionate Marriage by D. Schnarch.
Sooo, life is stable and lonely. I need to be patient and first put my 2 feet on the ground, form my needs and articulate them clearly(I hope the verb is correct) and then see what happens.
H although promised on Friday during my meltdown, never gave me any passwords or phone bill copies etc etc. I am making a mental note for this for tomorrow but I will approach it differently :if you want to be considered trustworthy you know what you need to do. If you dont, you will be treated, respected (not) and considered as a non trustworthy person. And I will shut up. We say "you can drag a mule to the water but you cant force it to drink".
I tried to book tickets for a show for a very well known artist here at a theater, she is a singer (Haris Alexiou). I boked for a day that yesterday I found out my D's show at gymnastics will take place. So I called him to reschedule. From now until March 5th, we couldnt find a day. He wanted to go on a Monday (the hsow is Fr-Mon, 4 days a week) when the kids need extra caring and attention because they have school and couldnt do any weekends. I used to NEVER ask for something specific like that. I may have asked 10 times during our M. I find it unbelievable that we cant have a night out, to dress nicely, go without rushing etc etc What kind of life is that?
I was thinking today, I have seen my H on weekdays afternoons maybe less than 50 times (except on holidays) the entire 10 years we are married. I have not cooked meals with him, gone shopping, gone for a walk, anywhere on weekdays. And not even think we have the weekends, we only have Saturdays.
Well, I guess it is what it is but it will not be the way I will spend my life.
K
Hello Specialest of K's...
*hugs*
Here you are! And it's great to see where you are at.
It seems that piecing is piercing and at the same time building.
You're wonderful.
*hugs*
I wish i could be as positive as Gyps.....
<<Well, I guess it is what it is but it will not be the way I will spend my life.>>
I guess the question is can he change? Can he take a day off work on the weekend to go see a show with his wife and make her happy? Can he or does he want alone time (no kids, no friends, no family) with his wife?
Not sure why you do not have the passwords or phone bills or whatever else you asked for yet. I guess you will have to learn to trust him without all those things....like a 'regular' couple.
Interesting that he'd like to go on a weekday afternoon when you say that's so difficult for his schedule.
Hey K just wanted to let you that I am still keeping up with you. I can't think of any advice at the moment as my head is trying to grasp all of what you are writing.
These have been his choices, his mistakes. Why are you the one making plans. Empower him and let him work it out.
kat
I've grown too much to let it go wasted now. And although it feels like I am too close to having a relationship with my H again and maybe risking that,I will be VERY disapointed in myself if I stay in a R that I know is not what I deserve and need.
So, I am no longer willing to accept how rarely we talk and spend time toegther. But I will no longer be nagging or/and crying or/and criticising him and try to get him to understand how I want things to be or how HE should act. I will stop pushing him to give me what I need but that will not mean I accept what I get.
For myself, I dont want to be pathetically graceful for the rare limited time he spends talking to me or the little time he makes for me (and the kids) or the good intentions to restore our intimacy/connection that lack actions and dedication. I will interpret what he does from now on as an indication to what he decides about how he REALLY wants to live his life and live his marriage. And I will make a decision about mine accordingly.
The last couple of weeks I hit a low exactly because I realised I was putting myself into a position to decide to take that leap of faith forward, accepting the possible consequences or step back and follow H's model of Relationships (not just with me) which allows him to feel comfortable but I doubt he feels content in. My first response was to adapt and believe I am crazy to risk that, that I should let time pass and hope for the best. The easy way, the way that I dealt with things in the past.
But, in the past I had no idea how complex things can be and become between 2 people that love each other and had absolutely no idea that the patterns we adapt to just cope, and not deal and not confront ourselves, can cause such a great damage.
We are the living example of how things develop and how little stability and "safety" we really had, power to stand against adversities and difficulties and how fragile our "roots" were. All it took was loosing a babysitter which minimised our time together and the naivity to believe things would improve in the future without our involvement.
By nature, I am a fighter. I cant rest till I read and do all I can when faced with troubles. It's my personal coping mechanism. Only this time, I didnt realise I had no knowledge of what was happening and when I did sense we were drifting apart I was no longer in the position to control myself and even worse, admit it was so and deal with it. I chose the easy way out.
I dont know what will happen with my H. I am excited that I am again faced with a choice that can not be "neglected" or postponed. I know that in our lives, he was trained to have little tolerance to growth and change and the associated pain and I was taught to go to the extremes WITHOUT knowing why and without identifying the underlying issues. Without pacing myself. We both need to go thru this, but I am not willing to delay my growth anymore or even worse, "reverse it". Not because it is easier. Because in the end, it isnt.
My H taught me the hard way we are not one. He taught me we are "seperated" and make our own different choices. HE showed me what it feels like to pursue what you feel is right WITHOUT dealing with what is really wrong and consequently let me see with my own eyes that when you act in a way for the wrong reasons or before you even realise your reasons, you regret your choices. But by doing that, we both learnt valuable lessons. And I am not going to throw all these lessons away because of fear "screwing this up" because I dont WANT/LIKE the destination this is heading.
I am forced by myself to make a stand. I am forced to make it clear. And I am forced to accept his choices.
My anxiety has dropped to zero and frankly I am no longer that angry with him. I could spend years trying to make him see and I could easily fall back in the same fruitless versions of a "non intimate" relationship. But now I KNOW that is NOT what I want. How could I possibly ignore that, after all that has happened, after everything I have read, heard, learnt, lived. I would be getting what I deserve. And I value myself more.
This is no announcement of an ultimatum, as DS says, ultimatums only bind the person that gives them. This is a little flashing green light that says I am back on track again, and I swear, it feels great to know where I am going!
K
Great to see you back on track again. Don't get discouraged if you find yourself off track again (it's happened to me often). When that happens just remember to get yourself right back on track again.
The MC lasted 2,5 hours instead of 50 minutes. I dont know if she is good but she is one of those that want the Ms to help. SO that least is in favour of our sitch.
I did state everything I wanted. He admitted he is AFRAID of me, of my anger AND grief. He said he cant handle it and prefers to stay out of my way just to maintain "peace". Tension and gridlocks and dead ends and issues coming out from everywhere. She said we both need IC. Me for my anger, H to deal with his problem of handling any kind of emotions and connection and not being able to take action.
I first heard that for him a big issue was that in 2005 I expressed I was tired of the kids and my life and wanted some kind of break (not from him, from my life). Back then it took him one paragraph email and one discussion to "calm me" down. So, I guess, I did what all LBSs say the wish their WAss had done, expressed my stress and allowed him to help me. For me that was a non issue, I dont even consider it a crisis. For him...well, it seems it made an impact on him.
I dont know if it was good or bad. I do know that the second hour he was ACTUALLY talking. Which is BIG. I was crying on and off. Especially when he was stating all the reasons he thinks we are worth the effort and all the reasons that we drfited apart. I was astonished. It was like listening to me 3 years ago. Every single phrase was identical to mine. He even said I am negative and cold and dont leave room for us to make it... The C said "why are you crying Maria?". I answered that it is ironic that 3 years later I hear my exact words and I am not thrilled. I am just sad.
I am disapopinted that I cant stay calm. That the hurt maybe in the way of us right now. I dont know what else I could do.
Anyway, we'll see how it goes...
Have a nice weekend friends!!!
K
Good to hear your H taking the role of the LBS and putting in his own words that which you said before.
So....
How do you think that you can you work on your anger, negativity and coldness going forward?
Is there a way to create a new happy-go-lucky, easy going Maria?
I dont know if it was good or bad. I do know that the second hour he was ACTUALLY talking. Which is BIG.
Yes, it is!
Especially when he was stating all the reasons he thinks we are worth the effort and all the reasons that we drfited apart.
Another good sign!
I am disapopinted that I cant stay calm.
Don't be. It's understandable and we are not robots. I wouldn't beat myself up about that. It was in an "protected" environment.
Godspeed Maria. Look for the good points in your MC session. That it lasted 2.5 hrs is also another good sign. That his is talking
with you and opening up is also a good sign.
Enjoy your weekend sister and thank you for your comments on my thread. Your wisdom is always appreciated.
hi there K.
good afternoon neighbor. Hope that everything is peaceful with you and your's.
Be confident.
T
may you be touched and may a calmness come over you by the Holy Spirit I pray!
Hey K, I was checking back last night to see how you got on. Wow. Amazing, the nerd in me finds it interesting he finally DID talk the day Mercury (his ruling planet, as he is a Gemini) goes properly forwards, on 22nd. Sounds like he told you things that perhaps he hadnt really voiced before? Is this right? You were unaware he was so affected by your anger and grief and literally has to stay out of your way because of it? Whilst your anger and grief are understandable, I suppose there comes a point where it is counterproductive (or counterintuitive as Michelle from DB likes to put it) - because it is putting distance between you and preventing him from being intimate with you, or getting close to you I guess?
Great that he embraced it, talked, that it last 2 1/2 hours and the MC was supportive of your R!
But shame he is unable to reach in and touch you anyway, connect with you despite his fears over your anger/grief. I said the other night didnt I, its like you two are in separate rooms, metaphorically.
So this issue in 2005.. was that the root of something for him? Did he kind of withdraw after that? Perhaps he felt you stating you wanted a break from your life was a kind of rejection of him?? I dont know but yes, what a shame he never expressed this before, or better still, at the time!
I think your H doesnt say much so we have to take what we get at face value.. so when he said: "He even said I am negative and cold and dont leave room for us to make it..." I guess you need to take that on board. Its been hard to keep encouraging you to take the wall down to your H.. I mean after all he did its not surprising you would feel these ways. But if you've decided to reconcile with him, at some point you have to 'give in' the fight and soften, let him back in and let go of these protective mechanisms.
Although it would help of course if he gave up one of those damn jobs!! Was that mentioned at all in MC?
Welll done though!! How are things between you since and today? xx
The councelor said she could see we had no contact. She said "no eye contact, no touching, smiling, even if you are sitting on the same couch. Is there a problem with contact, physical or other?". I said yes, H said yes. She asked when was the last time we felt like having contact with each other. H spoke and said when he went to the hospital with the kidney pains, he said "I wanted Maria to be with me, come to me, I knew it wasnt serious, but I wanted her there badly". I said I felt that when he saw me and hugged me and kissed my hands, and held on tight, his look, everything was very emotional. I told them that was the moment I started thinkng that maybe there was a chance after all.
She turned to H asked ever since? He said no. He doesnt want to. He said he feels like I am "fire" and will burn him. He said even when I am calm, he thinks I am ready to blow up, with no warning. Which is completely unfair and wrong. Even when I am upset, physical touch is my LL, it soothes me.I told him that, I told him if he was brave enough to risk, he would be pleasantly surprised...
At one point he was explaining vividly how difficult it is for him to handle me when I am mad, upset and/or sad. He went on and on saying he couldnt, he didnt want to, he wasnt able to "deal with all that emotion". My response wasnt very sensitive "well then, there we have it!! I need a man that CAN/and is willing "handle" me and my emotions, I dont want someone who keeps running to hide!". Silence after that...
Lack of time was discussed heavily Ali. I stated that my vision and desire didnt not include being thankful for crumbs (sp?). He went on and on about how it isnt practically possible, how his dad did the same while my parents didnt, how he thinks it is normal. I put my foot down in a sense that didnt try to accommodate him. I stated again, he needs to figure out what he wants, what kind of husband, father, companion does he want to become. A "guest star" or a present role model and husband? He said he didnt know what to do.
She suggested he thinks what is more important to him, she said "what would be more devastating to lose, your one job, or your family, and/or Maria?". He didnt answer that. He went on and on saying how we could do it anyway. She then said "that is clearly Maria's need that she she had thought over hard enough and says she chooses NOT to accept it, do you have a solution that she would accept?". He said find time etc etc. I explained all these "solutions" have been discussed before but he fails to "deliver". She suggested I go with him to some of his trips. I said I was never welcome. And added that she went to almost everyone of them so obviously there is no work related reason I couldnt go (he always said he would be too busy to entertain me and I would be bored and a burden). Silence again. This coming trip to Africa is an example, he laughed at me when I said I wanted to go.
In the end she said she sensed I am feeling like I have done evrything possible and right now I am negative and not willing to "bend". And that he is not doing what he should be doing to come close to me and soothe and soften me and we feel like we are at a dead end. She said, "you obviously love each other VERY much, there is no doubt in my head about it even if you Maria deny it and dont feel it. You can do this, lets work on taking down the defenses and finding a way for H to start doing things that would meet your needs". She said the trick is to start meeting each other's needs and how we do it or when doesnt really matter. Once that starts we will feel love coming back to us.
She is mellow and soft spoken and sometimes was taken by surprise by all the tension and emotion and several times I thought she acted stupid on purpose asking for clarifications that gave us seconds to "calm down".
She also asked him what he found in her. He said he didnt know, havent thought about it.
At one point I said I am guilty of teaching him he could get away with giving very little all those years in the past. That I was setting my self up for this disapointement because when I got tired, instead of stepping up, he chose to find someone else that would again be happy with very little from him. He objected strongly and said I cant be rewriting our history, that we had a solid R and that it is my negativity speaking... (SOUNDS VERY FAMILIAR, no?).
Anyway, today we havent spoken about it and our mood is ok. One thing that is changing is that, different from what was happening, we dont get distant after speaking about the past anymore although we dont agree. It's like we both accept, it is OK that our versions of the past are different.
K
K,
This C seems pretty good given the fact you've said it's very hard to find a good MC in Greece. You guys have addressed a lot of issues in the first session. Give it time. At least H is starting to open up little by little.
((((((((Kalni))))))))
I think I really like your C. I don't know where the road will lead, but at least you are on it. I'm hearing a lot of good things, but I also know there are lots of obstacles still in the way.
I can't give a lot of advice, I never even got close to piecing, but I will be following along, if silently. HUGS!
K - I've been reading along but I, like Jeff, find that I really have no helpful words of advice since I haven't been down the road you are traveling.
I can say that your C sounds like she has some good insight and may be able to ease you two into some sort of better path toward R.
You are always in my heart and mind and I pray for you and H daily, as I do all of my friends here. I will add to them that your H's heart and mind are opened up to be vulnerable to you and not afraid of your reactions. I wonder where that fear comes from? What does he think you're going to do? Kill him? If you haven't done that by now, you're not going to.
Ok, a little levity there at the end of a most serious post was needed. You know me......seriousness is highly overrated!
Off to church now. Have a blessed rest of your day!
The councelor asked when was the last time we felt like having contact with each other.....He said no. He doesnt want to. He said he feels like I am "fire" and will burn him. He said even when I am calm, he thinks I am ready to blow up, with no warning. Which is completely unfair and wrong. Even when I am upset, physical touch is my LL, it soothes me.I told him that, I told him if he was brave enough to risk, he would be pleasantly surprised...
At one point he was explaining vividly how difficult it is for him to handle me when I am mad, upset and/or sad. He went on and on saying he couldnt, he didnt want to, he wasnt able to "deal with all that emotion".
Hey mate, wow. Well, you may feel that this is unfair and wrong, but I assume he was being honest with the MC? So this IS how he HE feels and he sees it, right?? What can you do to reassure him that you have either a) changed or b) that he is wrong about your anger and that you won't blow up at him?? I know you posted here alot before, during the S that he hated you getting angry. I guess some people just cant handle anger, even if it is a perfectly normal human reaction (me being one of them, because my parents had a fiery R and I didnt want to recreate that model). Is he just particularly sensitive ??!
The thing about lack of time versus working too much was intereesting. So he saw what his Dad did, and thought that was correct (and as his Mum was presumbaly ok with it too)? But yes, as long as he understands he is making a choice here.. like the C said, thats not what you want or need, so he is choosing to NOT pay attention to that. I guess after everything that has happened (and you did wait for him, deep down).. he doesnt really expect you to leave, like, he can carry on regardless, working 16 hours a day and there wont really be any consequences??
So what can you do to make him see that its no longer acceptable? One for next weeks session maybe! When she suggested going on the business trips, it sounded like you jumped in with "well I am not welcome".. did you? Or did you look to him to respond first saying what he felt of that idea? Maybe let him answer that one next time, or maybe he just didnt!
She said, "you obviously love each other VERY much, there is no doubt in my head about it even if you Maria deny it and dont feel it. You can do this, lets work on taking down the defenses and finding a way for H to start doing things that would meet your needs". She said the trick is to start meeting each other's needs and how we do it or when doesnt really matter. Once that starts we will feel love coming back to us.
Smart lady!!!
xxx
Ali,
I dont blow up at him. I get quiet and sad often. 99,95% of these times, I dont tell him anything about it. Sometimes he asks me and I dont tell him just to avoide getting into heavy discussions.
Remember all the times your BF was holding you and reassuring you when you were getting upset and crying over the past? H can NOT, will NOT do that. Because it is hard for him. He says he cant handle any kind of emotion. But I have emotions about the past and his A. And the more he ignores/avoids me, the sadness turns to anger and resentment. This is something we need to handle together for about 50% and each of us on our own for the rest 50%. He wants me to do it on my own 100% and have nothing to do with me. But there are some things I can only get from him, reassurance, tenderness, etc etc. I want these things from my R anyway, not just from him now...
Anyway, MC gave us homework. To prepare a list of things that we want from each other on a daily basis, little positive, loving gestures. At first I said I didnt want to to do that because I have given him such list and he ignores it. She insisted in a weird -now that I think of it- way and I agreed. H agreed immediately that he wanted to do it... I am curious to see what he wants. Ohh he actually said one thing :peace.
H refuses to accept the impact his work schedule has on me. This weekend the kids were a handful with their homework, attitude etc. He started calm and then pretty soon he got very frustrated with them. At one point I told him calmly and peacefully "I hope you realise this is what I face everyday, it is not a weekend thing, but you dont know it, you are not aware of it, weekdays the kids for you are just a goodnight phonecall...". He nodded.
On another note, my dads test are not good this time. The last few weeks he has been looking very weak and although we continue to give him that drug, just as they had warned us, this trimester the results are not good. I am ready for my MLC now.
K
Kalni, I meant to reply to you earlier on in my thread, I did today. Remember how usually we don't follow our own advice to others... advice like this:
Gno, you wife WAS probably all you decribed as "ideal". You were probably her ideal of a H. That's why you married, no? Dont forget that.
I haven't forgotten and don't you do that either.
I added the following to my reply in my thread:
~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm glad that you and H have gone to MC. Your MC sounds great and seems to know what she is doing. Soften your heart a little sister. That your H is trying is very important. I know you are carrying a lot of hurt and resentment (and justifiably so) but please try let a little of it go. Remember the saying that it takes two to tango? Well... it kind of applies here too. The road has two directions and to meet both of you must be walking towards each other. If one is chasing the other the two of you will never meet halfway. Does that make sense?
~~~~~~~~~
K, I'm in no position to offer an opinion on your sitch. You've been at this far longer than I. All I can say is, sometimes with all the reading we do... we forget the basics. When you have too much information in your head it is usually best to return to the basics.
One thing I can say that may help you understand your H... sometimes when my W was upset I had no clue what I could do to console her. I knew that she needed to be hugged and held, but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It sounds stupid... knowing what to do and actually doing it are two extremely difficult. It took me a while to be comfortable actually doing it.
I hope this helps you in some way.
I have been following along every day but like others not sure what to post since you have made it farther than I did.
Dan is terrified of emotions, too. He saw his dad yell and his mom cry and hated it, every day. So if I get 'emotional' he has to either run away and hide from it or get angry about it, he just doesn't know how to handle it!!
Anyway just saying I think it can be common for men esp those brought up with certain family patterns to be 'afraid' of emotions. Too bad for them when they marry women who embrace their emotions and FEEL them!
The counselor sounds like she is on the right track, I hope you guys keep going.
Boy, I know people here are going to be against what I say but... here it goes.
I have been reading and hoping maybe there would be some sort of turnaround for you and your hubby but.
He is doing almost nothing. His request for "peace" is selfish- his affair (his fault, all blame lies on him) decimated the marriage and now he wants to not have to answer for it. NO discussion, no upset... what can I say... "peace" means that he gets to move on and not do the hard work. Not to deal with your emotions and upset.
The lack of sex- you stated that was a dealbreaker. The refusal of a transparency plan with passwords and phone records. The laughing when you stated you wanted to go to Africa on his next trip, when he took the OW to his trips. Laughing? He is unwilling to spend time with you and argues his reasons as to why he can not.
I think his vision of marriage is that you do what ever appeases him and he does not do the same for you? Am I right? He lives with you, great? As roommates at best.
Why would you accept this? Do you think he is going to change. Even the marriage counselor noted that you have worked on the marriage and he has not.
I asked you before- where do you see things in a year from now. I will ask you again- where do you see things a year from now?
I am sorry Maria- I am not trying to knock you down. I just think you deserve better. I think what he is giving you is unacceptable. I think he will string you along with false hopes and just piecemeal "crumbs" to keep you in his life.
You stated quite a while back that he does not have it in him to do the work required to heal this marriage. Has your opinion changed on this?
You do not deserve this, and quite frankly- what is it showing (teaching) your children? Do you want this to be the norm for them so that when your son or daughter grows up they will be ok with a spouse treating them this way?
That sounds like a super intense MC session! It's so positive that he really got talking.
It's also very positive that he wanted to work on the lists! I know you have told him before, but he seems to be in a more receptive place now.
I hope the MC really got him thinking with her questions about his job and priorities.
I know you have put in so much time and effort. But I loved your back on track post, and the MC post.
MWD posted this and it made me think about my D. Luckily, we didn't have kids. So, in a way this article hit even closer to home. I experienced all of those negatives, the depression, the financial issues, trying to do everything on my own. Don't know if you read it yet or not, if not
here it is.
June, Maria does deserve more. She won't settle for less. But she is giving it time. As for the kids, I have to disagree with you. Maria is showing them commitment and determination and problem-solving. She's showing them it's not okay by trying to improve their M. Plus, all the studies show that kids are far better off when parents stay together and work through their problems.
Michelle, I do agree an intact family is better. But her husband is not really part of the family.
Even Dr. Phil states it's better to be from a broken home then to be in one. Her husband leaving and returning and back-forth has got to be anxiety provoking and stressful on the children.
I am a child of D. I am glad my parents D'ed. I could not stand the stress of the next big fight or what would happen next. I was worn out dealing with two upset parents. Seeing my mom crying all the time.
At least with D there was peace in a sense. As a child you knew that there finally was some predictability to life. I did not worry about what I would come into. If my father would return home (no he was not cheating), etc. Nonsense like this...
Just my 2 cents
Maria, I wish you the best
I do understand that. My point is that she is not settling for him not being part of the family. Things will change, one way or the other.
June,
what you posted are 70% my thoughts. But I have to trust myself with this. And I feel I am doing the right thing. Maybe it is taking a while longer than it should, but it is the right thing. And right is not always easy.
I will put my kids to bed and will be back.
Hi girls!!!
K
Hey sweetie! Just swinging by.
kat
Maria,
I shall add your family to my prayers.
As others have said it seems as though your MC is constructive for the most part. This is truly a blessing. It can be so extremely difficult to find a C that both parties have a definite level of comfort with. It seems you have been blessed by the Lord with this rare find. I will pray fervently that it continues to blossom.
May the Holy Spirit drive any despair and discouragement away.
Ted
Thanks T!! How are you holding up? Will check on you later...
So, June, the way I see things we are at a turning point. In the MC we started slow but pretty soon all sorts of emotions surfaced, from both of us.
Taking a step back, H wants to "leave everything behind". Like most of the WASs do. No surprise there. Also, I can see that his fog never really allowed him to realise what was hapening to "US". I think his actions were consistent about that the whole time of the separation. I was "family" part of his past and important part of his life and she was...love.
Now, after that loved died (or so I hope), he turns to his family (me) again. I also hope that love played a role there but that is yet to be determined.
What he offers now, is what he thought would be acceptable. Before I split for good this time, cause I will, I need to allow some time for him to realise I mean business about a few things. You see, he left a devastated, begging person, that would settle for almost anything, to come back and find a woman that has digged (or dug sp?) her heels and demands things he wasnt prepared to give.
He thought I would be responsible and take initiative ofr the rekindle phase. He is actually getting impatient at times. And some times, I can see him, coming out from his comfort zone. Especially the last couple of weeks.
Telling him he is not the man I need if he cant handle my emotions, believe me, made him stop and think. He froze there for a min. And that is exactly what is happening now: I could almost hear him thinking "OMG, could she be serious? Did I awake the sleeping dog? I created a ...monster!!". Because he expected me to be happy with the fact that he is back and then "we would take it from there". I think the fact that he is living here and I am not asking him to move back in, is bothering him, the pieces have started to fall to their places, the fact that when I talk about the future he is not included (comes naturally) makes him wonder. Pretty soon he will have to make a choice/choices. I dont know what he will do and I dont know my level of tolerance, but it is happening. Until then, I am doing my best making myself clear and hoping this whole messy situation will improve. If not, my dealbreakers havent been revoked and my license to kill is still valid/intact.
K
If not, my dealbreakers haven't been revoked and my license to kill is still valid/intact.
K
LMAO
Hear hear!!!
Laughing with my English kiddo? Show respect for people that are much much
older, missy!!!
Hell no, I'm chuckling over Ms. Bond Girl and her license to kill!
Your H has no idea who he's messing with some days! LOL
BTW, I heard Brad is single again. If that is true, H is in big sh$t!!!!
Kalni...the only positive thing that I have to say is that you have now found a stage on which the two of you can openly express what is on your mind. No matter how many people preach to you here...about love and patience and hope etc...there is nothing you can do if the other spouse is unwilling to do the work and change.
After being here for so long, I have seen some miracles. Sadly, they are very few, very spaced apart and so very rare. I am not sure why so many people preach for some of us to stay in unhealthy relationships at ALL costs...at the expense of the children and your own health. Unless one is purely a religious stander, some marriages are just not meant to be saved.
So, at the risk of all reading this, I say to YOU, Maria, that time is still on your side. You have now started counseling. Your H is opening up a bit. However, without his willingness to do the work and WORK HARD to piece, you can only work on your OWN attitudes and actions. Perhaps, then, your MC can see things you can't in this department and you can embark on new change if you agree.
Every marriage is worth fighting for Maria. Sadly, even Michelle of DB will say that not all marriages should be saved.
Take your time. Only YOU will know. Praying for you as well.
Sagapo.
FIB
Go Bond girl go!
Sorry I missed all of this today. The perils of being off work on a weekday. I end up cleaning and working my butt of all day and not reading here.
or is that
When is your next MC session?
Kalni,
I have been reading along. Your MC sounds as though she knows what is what and it will be interesting where she may take you as a couple.
Piecing is a two person thing as you can obviously see. If your H won't participate then that will be his loss. I am pleased to see how strong you are and I hope the MC re-enforces your decisions - whichever way they go. No-one can say you haven't tried.
Like June, I was pleased when my parents split - I couldn't stand the tension and arguing. My father expected my mother to live exactly as HE wanted - there was no OP involved but he was one controlling SOB with a huge drinking problem. I respect my mother enormously for how she brought my sister and I up; she saved us by walking away from her M. Some marriages are toxic. Like you she gave it a good go, and then she called it a day. I believe happy parents raise happy children -whether they be together or separated. I believe in M, it's why I fought so hard to save my own; but not at the expense of everything.
Hey Saffie, hello!!! Nice to see you again!
I dont know why exactly I am picturing such a dark side of what is happening but maybe my posts reflect my true take on things...
I just confirmed with H he wants to go to the MC again and I called to make an apt. She told me the following on the phone :
Maria, you need to do separate IC, both of you. You were both cordial, polite and caring at our session but I want you to make me a favor: stop RESCUING him. I dont know where this patterns comes from, probably his family as he said himself, but your H hasnt grown up yet. He needs you for his security blanket, the OW was probably just like you and was doing what you were doing for years:rescuing him. He finally needs to man up. He just cant let things evolve in his absence anymore. His work allows him just that, to be absent.
So, stop scheduling our apts, stop giving him solutions when you are here at the session and focus on you. Unless he grows up, your R can not blossom, develop, overcome the crisis.
I told her,I am tired of rescuing him.She said he was probably covering my controlling needs and now that I dont want to control him anymore (not as much) there is a gap bewteen us that he needs to fill.
I think this is it. I've been saying it for years, she said it after a session. I will stop rescuing him and take initiatives while I will progress with my life. I will also adress these issues at the session on Friday.
As Schnarch says, during crisis, couples, make steps forward/progress or if the deny to...,stay unhappy and eventually have a fall out.
K
BTW, my kids enjoy a very peaceful phase right now. They see their dad in bed in the morning and he spends time with them 3-4 days per week after school, picking them up, having lunch together etc etc, calls them at night and they both feel happy. You can tell they are reserved about what is going to happen, but they dont see us fighting or me crying or anything similar.
I know my son picks up on my moods but that is something I am working on and dont know if I should fool him or not. Presently I prefer to be honest.
So, we ar enot a case where the kids are harmed by our interactions. If you guys saw us, you would be convinced we are well on the road to...paradise
K
My parents split when I was 17. I had such relief when that happened. I felt a new peace. He was verbally abusive to my mom. I didn't see my dad for almost 7 years after that and he never tried to contact me. He missed my college and medical school graduations, all my sporting events, etc. Watching the movie Field of Dreams is still difficult to this day. Thank G-d my mom filed for D.
Then, it was MY choice to seek him out and try to re-establish some sort of relationship. I was in med school and my sis told me that he looked sick. When he passed from lung cancer in '95, I had been able to find closure. I am still proud of him for his World War II courage and heroism and, yes, at times, I miss him despite some horrible stuff that went on in our family.
Although I am not 'encouraging' divorce per se Kalni, I am saying that you deserve to be happy. "Staying together for the sake of the children" is not always the best choice. The bottom line, again, is that no one is saying that a marriage can't be saved, but, you DO need to committed people two make it work.
Yiassou
FIB
Those are such hard stories. Alcoholism definitely has widespread consequences. Those are definitely cases of abuse where everyone including MWD would agree that the abuser needed serious help and the others needed to get away.
The way I view it though, Kalni's H is most definitely guilty of emotional neglect. But I do not see that as abuse (I would if he were consciously and intentionally doing it to get his way). So, I am curious why a few people seem to see the M as detrimental and are so adamant that he will never change.
Sorry for the hijack.
(((Kalni)))
I agree Michelle. And despite of what I come here to vent for the last...2 years, exactly 2 years 6 days go (!!!!!), H is not a "bad" man. His A wasnt like him. I have to admit that. I think that is the reason it hit me so bad (one of the reasons).
He called and said he is coming home early today. He has his heart test tomorrow. I was thinking of taking the day off and joining him but I am not sure I want to do it now.
K
He's coming home early! Better make a note of that on the calender!
You were going to take tomorrow off? Why don't you want to now?
Michelle,
I would not call this a marriage and do not think it really has been one in a long time.
I am just looking as his long history of lying and not stepping up. The best evidence of future behavior is past behavior.
And why yes, everyone can change... he seems reluctant to do so. Almost a refusal on his end.
Am I against K reconciling- NO, I hope it works. But K can only do so much or accept so much. I mean the man has to do his work too. That's were the problem lies.
K is free to do as she pleases... I am just offering up my point of view. I feel she has moved mountains for him and he can't even do the simplest tasks to show he wants part of the marriage.
Refusing to have sex, refusing to share passwords, refusing to spend quality time together would be deal breakers for me. I mean I think everyone should give it a good try but eventually there has to be change or a D.
Just my 2 cents
I just get indignant when I read her posts- like "how dare he do this to her" she so deserves better. I have thought this for ages
I am advocating for K's happiness
Hey K, so...H is not a "bad" man. You are on your way to piecing because a few months ago, I believe you compared him to gum on your shoes...or something like that.....
For the record, I agree with June about future behaviour...but sometimes we are not paying attention and think they will change. I know you are payng attention now AND I hope he can start to change soon.
Just my opinion, going to a doctor appointment to show support is not the same as 'rescuing'. Go if you want to go...
Lol. Yeah, rescuing would be making the appointment for him, nagging him to go, etc. He wanted you there at the last one, have you asked him if he would like you to take the day off and go with him to this one?
Hey Saffie, hello!!! Nice to see you again!
I dont know why exactly I am picturing such a dark side of what is happening but maybe my posts reflect my true take on things...
I just confirmed with H he wants to go to the MC again and I called to make an apt. She told me the following on the phone :
Maria, you need to do separate IC, both of you. You were both cordial, polite and caring at our session but I want you to make me a favor: stop RESCUING him. I dont know where this patterns comes from, probably his family as he said himself, but your H hasnt grown up yet. He needs you for his security blanket, the OW was probably just like you and was doing what you were doing for years:rescuing him. He finally needs to man up. He just cant let things evolve in his absence anymore. His work allows him just that, to be absent.
So, stop scheduling our apts, stop giving him solutions when you are here at the session and focus on you. Unless he grows up, your R can not blossom, develop, overcome the crisis.
I told her,I am tired of rescuing him.She said he was probably covering my controlling needs and now that I dont want to control him anymore (not as much) there is a gap bewteen us that he needs to fill.
I think this is it. I've been saying it for years, she said it after a session. I will stop rescuing him and take initiatives while I will progress with my life. I will also adress these issues at the session on Friday.
As Schnarch says, during crisis, couples, make steps forward/progress or if the deny to...,stay unhappy and eventually have a fall out.
K
To me it seems that this C of your's is s tremendous evaluator of things, very insightful. Think he/she hit the nail on the head with regards to H and how you need to stop the rescuing.
This only furthers my commnet on her/him (the C) being a true blessing. I expect that he/she will be a catalyst for growth from both of you. This I will pray for.
Those are such hard stories. Alcoholism definitely has widespread consequences. Those are definitely cases of abuse where everyone including MWD would agree that the abuser needed serious help and the others needed to get away.
The way I view it though, Kalni's H is most definitely guilty of emotional neglect. But I do not see that as abuse (I would if he were consciously and intentionally doing it to get his way). So, I am curious why a few people seem to see the M as detrimental and are so adamant that he will never change.
Sorry for the hijack.
(((Kalni)))
He has already showed certain areas of change and they appear to be sticking. He is at a definite crossroads now but he is only there because he made some changes to get there.
Ted
Just my opinion, going to a doctor appointment to show support is not the same as 'rescuing'. Go if you want to go...
you expressed my sentiment well. that's what makes a good sis good.
Ted
I agree with much of what has been said. I think if Kalni's C can get her H to 'man up' and joing Kalni at working at their m there is huge hope for this working.
It's just it does take TWO to make a M work at the end of the day.
When K has stopped rescuing, detached, and done her own thing, it has inspired her H to move closer (mostly from fear it seems).
I think the C has a good idea to let him make the appointments, to let him be in charge of the M.
Hey Lovely Maria..
*hugs*
Have you found an individual counselor so you can rescue yourself while working on your marriage?
Oh yes.. and I need a hug...
*hugs*
Hope everything today is going smoothly.
(((Maria)))
Hey M.. yep, follow your intuition hey, thats what Pisceans do best
If you feel you are on the 'right' path, thats good enough for me.
BTW, I had a little look at your husbands chart after the things you said about his father and the model of R he learnt from him (or his parents). I don’t know if I have the correct time/place of birth for him (11am, Athens?) but if I have, or near, then he has his Venus exactly conjunct Saturn. I could say a lot about this! Symbollically he has Saturn literally sat on his Venus... I find this quite interesting (wow, a literal textbook of someone being ‘blocked’ in expressing their love). Saturn represents the father in our chart too.
You know how we were discussing whether or not people can really change, or if they do? The good news is.. with Saturn, we ‘learn our lessons’ as we age and mature, that’s the whole point of the planet in fact.. it’s the planet of wisdom and maturity and well, hard lessons! Wherever Saturn is, is where we have our “cross to bare” – and his is attached to Venus meaning his life lesson, or challenge is connected to his lovelife/woman in his life/relating to woman in his life.
I feel more hopeful that he can learn from his mistakes and change.. but the other thing about Saturn is, its not a quick fix planet like Jupiter.. we’re talking SL-O-O-W and it also doesn’t come about easily or effortlessly, or through luck like it might with Venus. Rewards given to us through Saturn only ever come about through our own hard work and applying oneself to the task to achieve success...
A good example is, the Saturn Return at 28-30 is often a time when people leave behind their 20's and just 'working' to actually applying themselves to a career ladder, or get promoted. For woman its a time when they often marry/have kids and also, for both, a time when people can lose a parent (therefore literally making them mature by losing a generation above them and them no longer being the child). Saturn issues go in cycles of 7 years - akin to the "seven ages of man".
xxx
Hi boys and girls,
I am outside my D's gymnastics class and have my netbook with me-it is PINK btw!!!
I took the day off today, called in sick. Took the kids to school and returned home. H didnt ask why or anything, we had not talked about me going. It was a decision I made this morning. We went, he is fine or so it seems and then he dropped me off in a rainy morning at a cafe I asked him to, and...left. He could take the morning off, I didnt ask, he left. I walked 5 kms by the sea, in a very cloudy cold morning and enjoyed myself a lot. Then I bought my D boots and a pair of pants for me, HUGE sales here at the moment!
I felt like I was used today. He said thanks and that's all. But then, I decided that I did what I wanted, and that is fine by me. It goes without saying to support when someone you care about is worried, concerned, upset, stressed. He was scraed as he confessed. I almost told him "if you can have sex 3-4 times a day, then your heart is definitely OK". BUT, I didnt. I am a good girl.
I told him I want us to talk tonight. We have the apt tomorrow and I want to remind him I am expecting some feed back on the questions that were asked last Friday.
Both people need to recognise what needs to be changed and follow through. Ali, I dont know how much slower he can change if he changes. In 2000 we got married, in 2007 he moved out, in 2014? Who knows? I am not holding my breath...
K
I can remember back to the days when I would think out actions and do things based on how it would affect STBXW. No more.
I agree above. Do things now because you CHOOSE to do them...you DESIRE to do them or PREFER to do them.
Of all the cliche things you see here, one is really true. H should be a desire or preference to be with...not a need.
I agree with the statement above that this hasn't been a marriage for quite some time. This is going on now for....how many years?
FIB
Well, I am glad you did it for you.
How bizarre that he left (I assume to go to work). He really seems to be running from his fears right now.
Yes Michelle, to work...
FIB, no matter what we all say when we first come here, the truth is, those of us who do get a chance to reconcile, face a very hard reality: when we wished for our WASs back, we wished for the ones we loved, for the people we shared an intimate, monogamous R with.
And just as they -watch what you are wishing for- if/when they do come back, we get a newer version, one that has all the faults, the weaknesses, the fears, that have surfaced and brought to light. No make up anymore. It is all out there. No matter how hard we try or at least I am try, the facts are there staring at me.
He is not my beloved, wonderful husband in the sense he was before, he is a man that has hurt me deeply and I have to overcome all sorts of obstacles to let him in again. In one hand, I dont want to, because I am worried/scared he will abuse my heart again, on the other heart, now more of all times, I want that kind of relationship that is solid, strong and intimate, characteristics that cant be "achieved" unless I risk, put myself out there.
And it would be for me, the first time I would risk with him, because now I know, what he is capable of, I have seen him at his worst, I cant plead ignorance anymore and I have to remember him at his best.
His role is big, mine is much much bigger. Not fair but true.
K
K
Rely on Christ the Healer.
more prayers 4 U
T
"He is not my beloved, wonderful husband in the sense he was before, he is a man that has hurt me deeply and I have to overcome all sorts of obstacles to let him in again."
You are about to learn more about your spouse than you ever thought possible. This is a walk of you.. and who you want to be.
The "obstacle" is you.. and your thoughts. The "why's". You can walk away.. no one is telling you that you can't. Just by walking this path you are "choosing" to stay. In "choosing" that path you are still giving.. or leading. I have always said.. someone has to lead. You can't lead half ass.. and you can't lead if your heart is not in it. You still have not made the choice to throw caution to the wind. How bad do you still want "this"?
"In one hand, I dont want to, because I am worried/scared he will abuse my heart again"
He will.. he is. You seem to still want it.
"I want that kind of relationship that is solid, strong and intimate, characteristics that cant be "achieved" unless I risk, put myself out there."
So.. what you are saying is that.. you know you need to step out of the comfort zone.. but you are scared of the risk?
To take from things that have happened "here".. what if he was "gone" this morning? What thoughts would you have then? What would you have changed? What would you regret?
"His role is big, mine is much much bigger. Not fair but true."
If you know you have to lead.. why don't you? Sometimes you have to yell and scream at people to make them follow. Sometimes you have to just do things and hope people get it. Sometimes you have to explain it/write it down for people to get it right. A leader always knows.. exactly which one of those things to do.
From what I know about you.. you can yell and scream. You can "Do Work". Your post count imply's that you can write it down. Now you just need to use the right "tool" at the right time. Sounds simple to me.
Make choices.. for you and "yours"
Listen to that Little Voice.
Any way you you look at this.. you win. The people that follow.. win to.
That's the horoscope I found in my mail at work today. It's yesterday's horoscope. Guess what I did last? Exactly that!
Will post in a few...
Your horoscope for January 27, 2010
Grab the bull by the horns and take charge of your life. Initiate action and feel free to instigate major change in an important area of your life. There are some large trends being activated today, alerting you to the fact that there is a great opportunity at your disposal. Take note of any sudden outcroppings of energy and of unexpected events. Chaos and confusion may be the initial result, but realize that change is a key ingredient for future growth.
K
Ohh intriguing. I saw a medium last night (never done that before).. freaked me RIGHT OUT. She told me how things were going to pan out over years and I knew she was right, deep down. It was scary, honest stuff. It made me think of you. It made me think we know, we all already know the answers...but we have to go through all this anyway, right? Even if that takes years, or has taken years, or many years to come. OR.. we could change direction, take the harder road. Because we all get a choice right.
So anyway, I am intrigued.
I am leading Forrest, I am leading. Good to see you my dear!
Yesterday, I sent him a message saying I was glad he was healthy and that I would wait up for him last night to talk. He replied "Ok, thanks. I was glad you were there".
He came around 1 in the morning. I had started a fire and taken a bath, calmed myself down, took a few notes and he came in while I was watching something on TV. I started talking after 20 minutes or so because I couldnt see him so nervous anymore. I waited for him to ask what I wanted to talk about but of course he never did.
I told him I wanted a few answers from him at our next MC session to questions raised there and I wanted to make sure he is clear about where I stand.
I was quiet, determined, non-threatening, non-blaming etc etc. I was -almost- perfect!
I told him he needs to figure out what he wants in his life and what his goals are. As a Husband and Father.
I gave him examples of what I mean and he said he understood.
Then I calmly explained to him the process that has been taking place inside me the last 3 weeks. This is it:
I have been feeling increasing pressure to settle: Accept old patterns, Ignore hurtfull issues hoping they disappear, Hide my feelings, Dismiss my needs, "Enjoy" my loneliness, "Fill his gap", Find solutions that work for him, Initiate, Lead etc etc.
I stress the word settle Vs compromise.
At one point, recently, I felt I had to decide to accept the above just for the sake of it. And as I was ready to, I couldnt relax, I couldnt agree with myself. It felt awful and it felt as if I was selling myself out. I had to face the issues about the kids, my father, my security, etc etc. I decided I STILL DO NOT want to settle. Not after what I had to face. I am not going to.
I explained that I am not the preson he left in many ways. Some better, some could be worse. His effort to "make me happy" by giving me what he gave me in 2006, only now severly traumatized by his A, lies and hurt, aint gonna work.
I told him since my choice is to be monogamous cause I like it, it's what fits me and my romantic ideas, cheating and getting things from "other sources" outside my M, is not an option for me. My only option is to try to create what I want with him, or if that aint possible, with someone else if I am lucky. I told him I am very afraid of what is going to happen and know that this is taking a huge step hopefully forward but I feel good and happy with my decision.
I said I do not accept his "pseudo-dillemmas" regarding his work as my issue. It's his and he needs to decide. I reminded him what the MC asked him: what would cost you more if you lost, your job or Maria? He didnt answer that. I said, it's one thing if he hasnt thought of that in that context and naother if he knows it's his job but he wont tell me. He is OBLIGED to tell me so that I can decide what I want. He gets a choice, I get a choice.
I told him if he needs his job to create some kind of identity, fine by me. Many men are like that. But, that leaves no room for me or us.
I told him, I will not continue, without being allowed to express my frustration and voice my thoughts because HE feels uncomfortable and cant handle them as he said. I reminded him that thru the last few years, many people have asked him to work on himself. Even the OW did by asking him to go to IC to talk about his issues. -I remember her phrase "you are great at your job but lack deciseveness in your personal life"-
I said "I can see that so far, your strategy of "avoiding" the issue has "worked" for you because your parents allowed it, I allowed it, the OW allowed it and our kids are to young to "pay you back". How good it worked and with what consequences it's for you to judge. But, since our M, includes me, it wont work for me. If that's how you want to tackle your life, and consequently limit the potential of our M, tell me because I will not fight for something that is predefined to be lacking what I consider as basics".
I told him I will no longer justify his inability to do some basic things that to me are indicative of how serious he is about reconciling. He asked what I meant. I gave him an example of her number on his phone, something which I have mentioned twice to him.
I asked "how do you think I feel when I see your lover's name in the list of numbers, a person that you dont have any contact with, no longer work together and one that I still have great issues with?" He said that is ridiculous and simple.
I said that is exactly what I think and if he cant decide what to do about something as simple, I can safely come to conclusions about whether he can decide about more important things.
I stressed the importance of good will gestures and feeling I am being heard VS Ignored. I repeated that he can keep her number, gifts, letters whatever it is he has, he is free to do as he will, it's his decision, MY DECISION however is to NOT accept it. I told him "I am not from Sweden", his lover has no place in my house, NOT ANYMORE.
I told him how much happier the kids were in 2008 Autumn because I felt happy. I told him his inability to deal with issues that are difficult affected the kids as well because he COULDNT handle their emotions either and they leaned solely on me, they had no choice. Is that what he had imagined for them and for him?
He was listening closely, looking miserable, said he will answer to me on Friday and when I asked if he wants to add anything, he said he is thinking. I replied "Ok then, good night", kissed him on the cheek and went to bed. I could see his thoughts "oh man I am screwed, I need to make decisions now, she means business!!!!".
I have finally found some peace. I am USING my right to CHOOSE how I want my life to be and honestly I ONLY want him to do the same. I think the timing is right for both of us.
Please believe me, I am not crazy. In fact, I think I am finally coming to my senses.
K
Hey Maria, great post. I agree with Forrest...in spite of the fact that you do not want to lead, you are doing it anyway. You have no choice if you want change. We often read that actions are stronger than words or what your spouse says needs to be backed up with actions. What continues to surprise me daily in this case is that there are little actions and litlle or no words. Something you related regarding a phone number on his phone made me realize what you are up against. Instead of dismissing your 'request' why does he not just erase it in front of you....why does he downplay your requests as trivial like that. I would have erased the number immediatelly...but instaed he chooses to say that the phone number of his mistress of 3 years on his phone is no big deal....anyhow, I have gone on long enough about a mobile phone...good luck at the MC, hopefully he will begin to understand soon that your requests are NOT trivial and need to be adressed.
So it sounds as if you have it figured out, or nearly so, for you. You can only control how you react, what you decide and what vision of your marriage you will accept. It sounds so simple doesn't it and yet somewhere in our minds we fight that tooth and nail as if we can bend someone to our will. All that causes is frustration and hurt on both sides.
You are at a good point and I am happy for you.
hugs, kat
Great job M!
That was a good talk, I am glad to see you have reconiled with yourself first. I am glad you are not going to settle. It won't/wouldn't get you far either way.... anyway.
I am anxious to hear is response. BTW the whole not remembering these words that would be important to any other man who was trying to get back to his wife is indicitive of MLC. Just going thru the motions.
good evening K
I enjoyed reading youre post. It truly shows the steady growth that you have undergone. You have self-awareness (and I am a good one to spot that ..if I do say so).
Have the Lord guide you and continue to exhibit the great self-control.
Ted
Your post was positively inspiring! I love how you approached it and laid it all out.
I sure hope he steps up, if he doesn't realize you are serious he's gonna lose out big time!
Your post was positively inspiring! I love how you approached it and laid it all out.
I sure hope he steps up, if he doesn't realize you are serious he's gonna lose out big time!
Uh huh!!
Hi Michelle.
I am still poistive, LOLOL!!! 20 hours and I still feel good about myself.
We talked on the phone and he sounds good. He sounds like his anxiety level dropped. I cant know why and I dont care to find out.
K
What's not to feel good about? You know what you need, you asked for it, you've tried for it, you have nothing to regret or feel bad about.
Plus it always feels good to be proactive.
And you will be great no matter what my dear!
Hi Ted!
Good for you K!!! I love what you told him and how you are standing up for your needs.
Oh yeah, I also love that you are Piercing instead of piecing. It does seemlike being stabbed repeatedly doesn't it?
Good job on telling your H where you stand, K. Very admirable...
Will be thinking of you, this is the MC day for you, right?
Great job. I am thoroughly impressed and how clear and strong you were with what you will and won't accept. A++++!!!
PS got the PM book - thank you!
Have I sent you a link to these guys before? This article is about self soothing, particularly. Thought of you.
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/program14.php
Hi Hope, I hope you enjoy it!
I am leaving in less than 2 hours for the MC. I feel I am getting stressed but I plan to calm myslef down during my break and on my way there.
I may not do the homework she asked us to. Until we are both on the same page, there is no reason to ask for "little positive gestures on a daily basis". And now that I think about it, it is a HUGE 180 for me, really HUGE to not do something FOR our R that will get the message across : I am not playing anymore, I mean business.
I will post my update later, while I will be with my D at her gymnastics.
I dont know what to wish for...
K
PS Dont worry, my expectations are really low...
GOOD LUCK !!! Today IS the right day for this, also see realastrologers.com:
After the intensity of the past two eclipses, the Full Moon at 10°14′ Leo on January 29 will be much easier to live with (January 30 in the Eastern Hemisphere).
The chart for this lunation has three main conversations – one between the Moon conjunct Mars in Leo opposing the Sun conjunct Venus in Aquarius, Jupiter in Pisces sextile Pluto in Capricorn, and Saturn in Libra exactly squaring Pluto. Mercury in Capricorn, Neptune in Aquarius, and Uranus in Pisces form only minor aspects and are content to mutter quietly in the background.
I find it amusing the way Venus and Mars are aligned with the Sun and Moon. Ultimately, they balance each other out nicely. Traditionally, Venus and the Moon have more in common, as both are more receptive in nature, while Mars and the Sun are both more assertive and outgoing.
On one hand, pairing Venus with the Sun in cool, cerebral Aquarius tones down the exuberance of Sol, ruler of Leo, and gives Venus a decidedly independent streak. On the other, Mars in Leo is still retrograde, reducing his normal force and bluster to a whisper for now, making it much easier for him to find common ground with the Moon, whose normal fluidity is firmed up in fixed, fiery Leo.
What this gives us is better-than-normal opportunities to sit down with partners of all types and work out any issues creating problems. Our differences will be easier to define under the brilliant light of the Full Moon, and since the atmosphere is less divisive than usual, we stand a better chance of finding points of compromise.
Be warned, though, it is essential to be as honest and equitable as possible, because the second of three squares between Saturn in Libra and Pluto in Capricorn is exact on Sunday, January 31. I know I sound like a broken record on the subject, but right now unscrupulous behavior will bring us to grief in the end. Pluto does not take prisoners ever, and Saturn in Libra is backing him up on this. Consider what has and is happening to Capricorn Tiger Woods and his Capricorn wife, Elin, if you will.
xxx
Thanks Al.
We had our MC session. And when he came in he was...buttoned up as we say. Closed up, in defense mode. She started talking about our childhood, I went with it and then when we were asked to describe which attitude of our parents do we see repeating he mentioned "he hates difficult, drama filled, emotions filled situations and he cant express himself" She asked for an example from me. I said today he was supposed to share with me his views and he is delaying, ignoring my request because he knows it wont be easy. She asked for details, I gave her the details.
She turned to me and said "you sound clear and very determined, that is good and your right". She asked him how he felt "he said he is not going to allow me to control him, he said I want a man I can make as I wish and he wont be that man.
A little background : D. Schnarch says that when one partner creates a crisis, by identifying himself and boundaries what happens most of the times is, the other partner, tries to turn it around, make it sound like control, resists and fights back. That's exactly what happened. He got upset, said I try to make him as I wish, stated he cant be that kind of a man etc etc
Being prepared for that, I stated again in front of the C I am only talking about what I need and because we are still married I want to be informed about where he stands. I don't dictate behavior, I don't request changes, I don't set ultimatums. I told him that being in the position I am, he would be a fool to think I would want to MAKE someone to want me, I will love someone that wants me, that's my decision. He insisted, angry, I wont get that from him and that I am trying to control him.
I had a 5 mins explosion (not angry or dramatic but VERY expressive). I said what I am asking are basics, basics that I was asking 4 years go, his GF/OW asked in 2 years, his first GF 15 years ago, asked also. It's an issue that has been pinpointed by 2 other Cs, something he agrees isn't positive for his life and that watching him standing there saying he wont change it, just wont do it, to me seems as a very tragic act of selfishness AND stupidity since it will cost him the woman he says he loves, his family and will cost our kids their family.
I told him that his avoidance of any kind of self examining with the intention to change is immature and a very short live break he grants himself. Only taking energy, love, tenderness, sex and not giving back to his Rs is something proven to be disastrous.
As long as the woman in his life gives gives gives, is happy, sees him as God, has the strength to do the work for 2, the relationship works. When she asks back simple things, he runs and exchanges her for a newer model. He did that with me and he did that to me and again left the OW when she started asking for more. He couldn't handle it.
She turns to me and said "so, that obviously takes the pressure off you Maria, it wasn't you, it wasn't Christina, he is running when he feels inadequate'...
She said, we have both the right to choose what we want. She said "if you are both determined, then you will divorce, no judging, that is how it will play out".
Somehow she turned the discussion to him. She started by saying why do you think Maria wants to change you, what is it that she wants, that you are not? He said it crosses his mind that I am asking for things I know he cant give so that we divorce. She insisted what is that and he went on saying nothing particular, something like he cant express himself...
What happened next was an hour of IC. She pushed him very hard, calm and sweet talking. he told her 'enough, it's too much'. Her answer was 'why? What do you feel?' She wouldn't let him off. He did an exercise, imagining my face with closed eyes, talking to me and really thinking who he was talking to. He ended up crying.
She said he was in pain. He needs to figure it out.
Result: I held on to what I want. He is having second thoughts about his approach. And he just came in. Cant post much more... It doesn't look good. I am scared sh!tless, this is a critical time for me, I am confident this is what I should do. We'll see.
K
ohh and he said he erased her number... LOL
Thanks FIB
Kalni's got some NUTS! ((( K )))
O Theos mazi sou adelfi.
Yay!!!!!!!! Gosh, sounds...intense. I'm so glad he didnt cave as you feared..but wow he realy tried to stubbonly hang onto his position but the C didnt allow it, gently. Good luck tonight then and into tommorow morning, remember to let go of ego ! xxx
((((((Kalni)))))))))
Breathe and step back from him. You know it, and your C knows it....he has serious issues that he has to fix for himself. If he is not willing to work on himself, he can't be expected to work on your M right? He really has some serious demons.
I'm sorry.
I'm hoping you have a calm, quiet night tonight without too much disruption.
Thanks Gno and Al! H went to watch TV. He sat by the bed for while, asked a couple of questions about the kids and I was polite but distant.
When we came out of the MC, I told him this isnt working. He said its a pity to divorce because of lack of patience. I said, it is what it is. I said I wont like sitting tonight in bed, you come in, pretending nothing happened, but that is what you will do. That is what he did.
Anyway,the exercise was the following: close your eyes, imagine Maria's eyes, lips, face expression, every detail you can remember. Start a convo with her, take your time, tell her what comes to mind... Then, take off her face, as a mask, who's under it?
He didnt answer, started crying, tears coming down his cheeks. I was standing up, away. I went close to him, kissed him, hugged him. He was in agonizing pain. he couldnt talk. There was silence. She then started talking. I excused myself and left the room. She asked him while I was absent who he was really seeing thru me, what did he tell that person. I dont know the answer. I know she told me he is in pain. She said you are not acting out of selfishness, you resist more the ones you hold dear, you are in pain and fear. You have a choice, unless you deal with it, your M has no future. She said Maria has her issues, she is far from perfect, but she is a step ahead of you. She is not running from herself. You are.
I imagine it was his mom. I think he may have deeper issues than I thought. And he is choosing, once more to avoid them.
I m taking my time, need to. A lot more was discussed. A LOT more. A power struggle. Funny, it was all described in PM. We hit a critical mass. I am differentiating. Out of love for myself. He is resisting change. Two possible outcomes, he grows, we divorce. He is not willing to grow. He is scared.
He said he feels hurt cause I once said (NYear's eve) he is my biggest mistake. He sounded really hurt. As if his A and the year before are both erased.
At various moments of the discussion he was talking "about the woman he is with every time". I was dying inside hearing how I am not the woman in his life. I used to be. His wife. I am now his "opponent", the source of pain, hurt, he is my wound. Things change...
Yes Al, he is stubborn. I think he is afraid of what he will discover. But, he is panicking. Me too.
K
Hi mish!!!
It's all pretty simple you know? Dodging it makes it harder not easier. I hate to leave him while he is down. He will probably find someone soon enough though...
Some call it temporary constipation.
Just reading along. Your MC kicks ass! Your H is a mess right now. Not sure if a leopard can change its spots to stripes. You sound great and are a quite the catch for a man. I am sure your H is aware of that, but something is tormenting him inside.
Other than that, how are the kids and yourself doing?
((((Kalni))))
Your last few posts have been so very intense and insightful. When I read about what happened at your MC session it affected me deeply because I am living your pain. I can picture the same thing happening in my sitch - my H becoming defensive, resisting, a similar outcome. I've had similar talks with my H as you had a couple of nights ago and, like your H, he's taken little action to address my needs, has become defensive, dismissive, "feels controlled", and behaves as if nothing has happened.
Be strong and don't forget to soothe yourself throughout all of this.
Sooo, what do I do now?
I am giving him time to digest what's going on while showing him/telling him I am not backing off. He has a choice.
I have a choice.
K
You both do indeed have a choice and free will.
Do you love him?
Can he and you be 2 bodies but 1 soul together?
The time will come for when the choice should be obvious for you.
Dont worry about the unknown.
Patience
Baby Steps
Seek the happiness
Be the sunshine
Sooo, what do I do now?
I am giving him time to digest what's going on while showing him/telling him I am not backing off. He has a choice.
I have a choice.
K
We're at a similar place in this messiness K. Of course similar but different.
I am efforting to live my life in a way that the Lord would be proud of me.
With variations in success I might add. But efforting nonetheless with the help of Christ.
Ted
prayers for many blessings for you my dear K
((((((Kalni))))))
Wow! So much emotion in so little time! I think you r MC is great! She's cutting straight to the point. I'm finding it fascinating how your situation is following the PM model! I need to read that book again. Or actually, finish really reading it the first time.
I don't know how your H is going to react to the crucible, but I think you are doing the right thing to put him there. And it sounds like the MC is right there with you. We are with you, Maria!
Yes Al, he is stubborn. I think he is afraid of what he will discover. But, he is panicking. Me too.
K
While he is stubborn, affraid and panicking. These are things he must do as a part of his 'discovery'. The more he does it solely on his own the greater the experience and discovery will be.
I know you know how to live your life for you and to experience some joys while you are doing it. Do just that for now.
Be in the loving arms of our great and mighty Lord while your H undergoes the growth that he must.
If you will let the Lord love you and handle your struggles for you (as I MUST keep reminding myself!!!) He will be your 'living water' that you should not thirst!
Ted
"PM model" = ???
afterall I am but a guy!
What is the title of the PM book you are referring to again?
Good luck. This sounds like another crucial point for you.
Hey K, sorry I missed you, I too am having a funny weekend!
So you really reckon he was talking to his Mum under your mask? Hmm, well I always thught it incredible (alarming? Textbook!?) that he told your Best Woman in August that he was only NOW getting over the death of his Mum, 6 years later.
I thikn that this weekend was a crisis point,but also a turning point. I liked that you comforted and hugged him when he cried. I would advise continuing being loving and comforting, consistent with him and not his enemy, as you put it (you arent really, he has transferred some feelings to you that he couldnt process about/with his Mum perhaps hey?)...but then you know what a pushover I am !! I think someone said here that his actions are consistent with a man in MLC, as I feel he does fit the model and that he is on the downward leg of his journey hey? But not out the other side yet.
Kerry said have patience! Funny, but true. I mean.. you've come THIS far, surely you cant turn round and give up now??? Look how far you have come, he was always playing catch up but whereas before he hadnt even saddled his horse up, I feel he is at least on the trail behind you now.
xxx
Ohh you are all a great group of people!! Thank you.
I am guessing it was his mom. The C told him he acts out of fear not selfishness. She said "stop worrying youare a bad person, you are just human-the more indifferent you seem about someone, the more you love them, because you are putting walls between you worried you will lose them (death)-you are missing out on what life offers, a great love and relationship"...
I am going to tell him, if he wants to tackle this, he will find me by his side. If he chooses not to, I will move on. He is free to do as he will. As I told him last night during C, he cant run forever. He will have to do it. It's best to do while he still has a choice.
K
PM is Passionate Marriage by D. Schnarch. I get a preview of what's happens next. I dealt with my crucible when he left me. He deals with it now. What he does is the whole point.
Whoa Maria,
That's quite the session. I think it helped open your eyes to what is wrong with him too.
So the question remains the same ..months later... Is he going to do the work?
I feel for you ..... like me you are so close and yet so far from having this resolved...it seems like it's just in reach but yet the further you stretch .... the further it seems to be just out of your grasp.
No real words of wisdom from me, but I am thinking of you daily.
Hey Ms. Maria..
Your counselor sounds very astute.
What about following up on her advice for individual counseling for your anger and rescuing? It's great to have a paddle while you're going down the river.
*hugs*
There were really similar dynamics when H and I were in counselling, ending in May/09. The C really put the focus on H shifting, and they did a couple of IC sessions together. Unfortunately, he just wouldn't deal with his stuff. The counsellor kept saying we were "at an impasse" and we eventually stopped going. It sounds like your MC is more skillful though, and your H made a breakthrough that my H never did (when I was present anyway). It sounds like your H is making himself pretty vulnerable in C, and that's also promising.
The weekend passed and we didnt talk about anything. Just as anticipated. Which means I still have no asnwers to what I asked for. Which means, I either let it slide or insist. Of course I will not let it slide. Sometimes I feel like I am pushing too hard, feel sorry for him. He looks pushed into a corner. He looks as if his mask of "not reacting will make it go away" is finally dropping. He reminds me of the possums in Ice Age 3 that play dead everytime danger comes close. Only this time, "danger" is not going away.
He may still choose to do that, but he will be well aware what it is he is doing and he is informed well in advance of the consequences.
Last night, late, I told him I need to ask him again what he has decided. He said he has decided he wants us to continue trying. He doenst want to give up.
I told him what I need/want hasnt change and it wont. So, if we are so far apart, it is only good for our kids to be honest with each other and do what needs to be done. He didnt comment/answer or anything...
I will not book a session this week. If he wants to go, he needs to ask me to arrange it or set it up himself. I will also arrange to go away for a couple of days.
I am looking forward to the show for Friday. The opening night was reported as MAGICAL. It's been some time that I enjoyed a concert...
K
Wait, I missed something somewhere...what show?
Wow Kanni
I just sat here (taking a studying break) and was reading back on your sitch.
There are allot of similarities in our sitch and we have actually been going at it for about the same time.
My W never "physically" left and the MC was long ago and we did go to separate C's but wow I think I am where you are...
I told him since my choice is to be monogamous cause I like it, it's what fits me and my romantic ideas, cheating and getting things from "other sources" outside my M, is not an option for me. My only option is to try to create what I want with him, or if that aunt possible, with someone else if I am lucky. I told him I am very afraid of what is going to happen and know that this is taking a huge step hopefully forward but I feel good and happy with my decisionI have finally found some peace. I am USING my right to CHOOSE how I want my life to be and honestly I ONLY want him to do the same. I think the timing is right for both of us.
I wish you were my MC…
Let me ask you this...Did reading PM get you to this point? Did it really help? You see for me… When I read it I liked what I read but it seems to me that unless both W and I learned something from the book it was only helping me… not both of us. Yes it helped our marriage ½ ways but the other half was up to her...Do you understand what I am trying to say?
Maybe I should read it again Right now we are both preparing for job interviews so the stress level it pretty high so it will have to wait but soon…. Very soon
Doc
Wow. You're MC kicks butt!
I don't know if the question is really can he change, he'll have to. He's gotta jump one way or the other, and if he doesn't jump out of C, he's gotta change. I think you fear that he will find someone else rather than grow because that's what he did before. But I don't know he'd do it again now that he realizes it's not the easy way out, now that he knows he'd lose you and his family forever.
I do believe also that men have a hard time picking up the reins after their wives have done things for so long. My ex would just wait for me to do it, knowing that I would get fed up of asking.
Perhaps it is simplistic to say "H I will not be making the joint appointments anymore. You will need to do so. I do think the C is necessary but it is now your task to arrange."
Keep up the positive thoughts.
kat
I am looking forward to the show for Friday. The opening night was reported as MAGICAL. It's been some time that I enjoyed a concert...
I am EXTREMELY jealous! This is one of the biggest things I miss about living over here.
Enjoy the show K. I know you're going to have a fantastic night!
Gno, (and mish)
the first night was amazing, at least that's what I heard. Haroula is at her best, mature and her voice is even more oslid than before. It's a 2 hours show at a theater and she will be perfoming only for 15 nights.
K
Darn it!!! I'm dying of curiosity.....which show???????
Mishka, search Haroula on Wikipedia and it will bring up a biography. It's not her born name, but more of a nickname/stage name. I can't look up any of her stuff on YouTube from work, but she sounds amazing.
Cool! I'll do that. Thanks.
Dr. Love,
when I first read the book, I posted the exact same question I think to DanceQueen. She (or whoever it was) posted back that I was missing the whole idea or something similar. She was right.
I let that book rest for months. I stopped trying to reconcile with H. I got tired and fed up and bored. We were going thru the motions but that was it. And it was sick.
Then I found out about his affair. It was a turning point for me and him (for different reasons).
I decided to read the book again a month ago when I was downspiralling,(depression=crying, feeling hurt, disappointed, wanted to escape etc etc), reading the book, calmed me down. And then, I reread it, and again, and every night now I read the described stories.
No, you dont need both partners on board. It's what he says VERY clearly. It says that marriage has it owns set of rules, it's a system. The "system" goes into crisis mode several times over the years. At those times, partners tend to lean to each other for reassurance, soothing, support. Since a crisis is rarely a one man show, imagine 2 unbalanced people to try to balanve each other. You think that would be possible? And if yes, for how long? First move and the would collapse.
But it's what we do because it is easier to look outside for "help". Someone to hold on to. In my case, I am/was struggling to get over his affair and lack of actions. And he was failing to "deliver". I was becoming unstable (in every sense-LOL ask John210-he got scared I was loosing it!! ciao caro!)
After reading PM, I realised that, by falling appart and while he was dealing with his own issues, I was harming the system (note in our case the system had totally collapsed so what was I expecting?), he could not help me and I was ready to settle for anything, just to stop the pain.
I realised, there is nothing I can say or do to MAKE him reassure me. So I looked inside. I talked to myself for a while. I wrote down all I want in my marriage. The ideal situation. Then, I toned it down by making it realistic. Tnen I set my boundaries(It's nice to have a man that tells you are beautiful, but if my my man doesnt BUT covers my basic "needs" I can live without being told how pretty I am).
I created my map. I edited it. I remembered when I felt happy. What was it that made me happy. Then I compared then with now. What is missing.
I made it clear in my head that, no matter how selfish, stupid, naive, brave, honest this may sound, there are certain things I will not sacriface just to be with H. And then, I let him know.
I tried to word it the way I felt it: I AM making a choice FOR MY life. YOU are free to be a miserable, a weekend father and husband, but I will not accept a husband like that. I choose to look for a R that is intimate and solid, I want to find a person that will know me, not what I present to him, what I realy am. I tried to be polite but the message was clear.
His response is what PM describes. He tried to turn it around. The only time I didnt try to control him in ANY way, he complained that was, what I was doing. Funny huh?
Schnarch says, when one is pushing for change, the other one is facing a dillemma : grow or dodge. It's what crisis are supposed to be about about. We should LEARN by them. Not repeat history hoping the outcome will be different.
My H is a bit disoriented at the moment but resists. He is fighting, man is he fighting!! But he feels something is different.
I am sticking to my guns, and I picture my alternative :being unhappy. I cant sell myself out and be with a man that PROMISES me to make us unhappy, I prefer to risk for someone that is willing to grow and change.
This is what I learnt from PM. I have a preview of how it may play out. I know that I am not threatened by him, I am myself's enemy in this one. I mean, if I am clear and honest to myself, the rest will follow. If I start making compormises I cant live with, it will come back to haunt me and make me face me again in the near future... I have a choice. I made mine.
It's scary. This could finally be the end of my M. It could also be its rebirth. Both options are scary.
K
Schnarch says, when one is pushing for change, the other one is facing a dillemma : grow or dodge. It's what crisis are supposed to be about about. We should LEARN by them. Not repeat history hoping the outcome will be different.
Sounds like he is an Einstein fan: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
As the LBSs, we couldn't dodge. We had to grow. They dodged for a while, but eventually even they may have to grow lol.
I might have to get that book. I may be in a place to REALLY appreciate it finally.
For a tango
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOtf_oTML-M&NR=1I give my fortune for a tango
for a hidden touch (your) under the table
Love and death both require soul...
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghR_2ryDW40&feature=relatedmusic by Goran Bregovic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnNAXH9f8qEmish, this is for you, Ne me quitte pas of J. Brel by her, live. Maybe French will sound better to you...
What a song!!! "dont leave me"
K
I can't wait to get home and watch those. I can't see youtube at work.
Same here! You are such a tease K!
Thanks.
Guess it is time to read it again... It is probably like Retrouvaille I would recommend it to anyone but timing is important. When W and I went it did load a good to me and I think W got a little out of it. But we went too soon. If we were to go now it would be totally different.
Guess I have some night time reading ahead
Doc
By the way I CAN look at youtube now Ha HA ...but I would rather have a job
Doc,
You can go to all the Post sessions again anytime, at no cost. To do the weekend again, you would have to pay, unless you go as an Angel couple. You can call the local chapter and see if they need an Angel couple.
Last night, late, I told him I need to ask him again what he has decided. He said he has decided he wants us to continue trying. He doenst want to give up.
I told him what I need/want hasnt change and it wont. So, if we are so far apart, it is only good for our kids to be honest with each other and do what needs to be done.
I really admire your integrity in this situation. You are laying down the foundation for a renewed M, not just saving the M at any cost.
Doc,
You can call the local chapter and see if they need an Angel couple.
Wife would never agree to go again on her own. . Like I said it was too soon for her... she was still lost in the fog of denial and just went on her to please me. (Which I am thankful for) I do think it helped her but she is not religious and even though religion is not pressed there she could not get past that part...Sorry for hijacking your post Kalni
Hi Doc,
I wish Retro was possible here. H can not be guided thru me to even try some improved communication method, he resists anything that comes from me. At least his first reaction is refusal.
Yesterday I sent him an email. Telling him he needs to inform me what is going on. It was calm and despite the issue very "caring-loving".
No reply. During MC he said he doesnt ignore me, he "just does not respond to me". If anyone can point out the difference for me I would gladly listen.
This morning my D didnt want to go to school. He heard her complaining, heard me upset and woke up and yelled at her. I told him "I dont need your yelling, thanks!". He went quiet and eventually fell asleep (dont even know what time he came back last night).
I cooked a wonderful shrimp spaggeti and cheesepie last night. It was after midnight when I finished. I had already eaten so I just stored it but needed to cook because I love it.
This morning I saw H had sniffed it out of the fridge and ate it all!!!
I am planning on starting having a massage every 2 weeks. Never done that and I need it.
I am also thinking of highlighting my hair. I have turned completely white! Even my eyebrows !! I will soon be blonde with very little effort...
K
I think he feels when he doesn't reply, he is protecting himself in some way. He doesn't want to get into an argument. Ignoring you, he doesn't it give it much thought and not worth the time of a reply.
So in one he is protecting feelings and in the other there aren't feelings involved. At least I think that is what he means.
kat
That's about what I was gonna say. If he was ignoring you he wouldn't even hear you, it would be in one ear and out the other. Not responding, he hears but isn't ready to talk/act yet.
We know how slow he is...LOL
LOVE the massage idea. I try and go about once a month. Also liking the hair idea, sometimes it's nice for the PMA for switch things up.
Kalni,
I know what you mean by
"H cannot be guided thru me to even try some improved communication method, he resists anything that comes from me. At least his first reaction is refusal."But in reality I don't want my wife to just go through the motions either; I feel that if she does not do it on her own then it is not something she wants.
As for him yelling at your D....I have the opposite sitch here... Wife and son get into arguments and if I try to get in and help her I turn into the bad guy, so even though it makes me feel like I am NOT co parenting...I try to just stay out of it. Of course if she asked me to help I would.
"I am planning on starting having a massage every 2 weeks. Never done that and I need it."I could not even imagine getting a massage right now. I have been without intimacy for so long I would be afraid of what might arise if I got a massage...Woman or man
I have started a "self centering" exercise though 30 min of just doing nothing but relaxation listening to a tape.
Shrimp spaghetti? Never heard of it but it does sound good. Next time let me know so I can stop by for a taste
Doc
I think he thinks that if he reads it.. it's not ignoring it.
Either way, his head is twisted!
Missing you Greek Goddess!
Hugs from Canada,
W2G
I dont think that I have ever had the "I dont want to go to school syndrome", however, I had a very upset little boy last night who needs to learn to detach from the actions of others and not try to control other children. I printed him out the "Let Go" poem for him to think about along with having him work on one very important cub scout core value - Positive Attitude (being cheerful and setting our minds to look for and find the best in all situations).
I cooked a wonderful shrimp spaggeti and cheesepie last night. It was after midnight when I finished. I had already eaten so I just stored it but needed to cook because I love it.
This morning I saw H had sniffed it out of the fridge and ate it all!!!
Sounds like he is going the
suicide by food route.
As for your H not responding - I cannot understand. If I had a wife that I loved, who communicated clearly to me her disatisfaction, who fed me and who was a wonderful mother, I would move mountains to try to change so as to keep her in my life. And I would most certainly work hard on communicating with her my intentions.
Ohh Kerry thanks. Very nice of you...
So, H actually said he READ the email and doesnt ignore me. He couldnt answer the question "what exactly are you doing then?".
I hate feeling I act as a bitch but it's not much I am asking, honestly.
The conversation didnt go well. He ignores what I tell him on top of what I write him. My credibility is very bad at the moment. He senses soomething is different but he is on defense mode and will take it to the end. I cant say it is his loss because it obviously is what he wants.
Even talking to him is so damn hard. Like
-have you read my email?
-Yes I have
-what are you thoughts?
-I am thinking what you tell me in the email
-so? what are you thinking?
-what you are telling me, I told you
or
-I hate it when you ignore me
-I dont
-well it feels like you are
-but I am not, I read it
-and?
-I wrote half an email back
-and?
-well I need to write the other half
-when?
-when I have time
-this is ridiculous!
-why? I dont understand
-well, it's clear we are not in the same wave length
-I think we are
and then
-I need to tell you something serious (H)
-I am all ears
-I didnt like it when you said you dont need my yelling infront of the kids
-WHAT? This is something else, I am telling I had enough and you ...
-SURE!! NOTHING I say is serious, right?
or
-I am ot setting up anymore MC sessions
-Oh yes, I meant to tell you, we cant make it this week because of the show
-I dont think you are coming with me
-...and we would have to leave early
-did you hear me?
-yes, but I think this week is bad
-not this week not next week, I am not playing games
-.....
and on and on and on...
I was thinking today, what if we divorce now? How would I label the last 4 months? Wasted? The answer is NO! I think some people with control issues like myself, need to be faced with reality :you cant control anyone but yourself (if that). It's good to be reminded. I am raising kids, I am sure I will deal with that same fact many times down the road.
H is expected to come here, sleep by my side and pretend nothing is wrong. Till I kick him out. I hate telling the kids "the effort didnt work out". Hate it...
K
Kalni, I totally get that you're frustrated with H's lack of action. But this example stood out to me:
-I need to tell you something serious (H)
-I am all ears
-I didnt like it when you said you dont need my yelling infront of the kids
-WHAT? This is something else, I am telling I had enough and you ...
-SURE!! NOTHING I say is serious, right?
H was attempting to have a serious conversation with you but you blew him off because you didn't want to discuss that particular incident, you wanted to talk about what YOU wanted to talk about. I can see how, if that is a pattern, that would frustrate H and lead him to conclude that you will never hear him out or will only talk on your terms.
I know that you are at a crossroad and agree that H needs to step up now or risk losing you and his family forever. I just think that perhaps this is his babystep at opening up and you just steamrolled right over it.
I wish it was Pearl. All it was was an attempt to change the subject. We were talking about divorcing and he brought up a "parenting" issue although we both agree we dont have parenting issues. It was an incident, not even an incident and I wasnt going to discuss that in the middle of another discussion...
Ok, got it. I guess I missed that this happened in the middle of a D conversation. I would have responded the same way you did, wanting to keep to the topic at hand.
K,
I, for one, completely understand what you are going through because my H behaves in the exact same way yours does. He's usually unresponsive when we're discussing our R, changes the subject during R discussions and refuses to acknowledge things I've requested. Believe me, we've had very similar convos. I know how frustrated you must be - I'm feeling it too.
(((((HUGS)))))
In agreeance with what PH pointed out, and this grabbed my attention:
O
-I hate it when you ignore me
-I dont
-well it feels like you are
-but I am not, I read it
I know it can be hard in the heat of the moment, but I'm a stickler on key wording and how to phrase things. This is a prime example of how we are supposed to 'change' our mode of talk to our spouses, like this should have been "I feel like I'm being ignored at the moment and wish for some more insight on 'issue A".
I think that is the one thing that really stuck out since day one that I picked up the DB book, that I really did not communicate effectively with my (x)W and nor her to I. We were all about "I hate", "you never", "you always" and the like, it is highly reminiscing of the things that went wrong. Somehow, I managed to elimnate those completely from my vocabulary when stressing a negativety I feel from my (x)W. Ironcially, she must have picked up on it, as she has as well. And we communicate 1,000 times better than I think we ever have.
Just my token observation.
What PH and dday pointed out also jumped out at me. It would immediately put H on the defensive. I've been guilty of doing the same and have to very consciously choose my words.
It is so hard to know what to do. I am at a similar crossroads, although not dealing with this for as long in marriage (started when dating). I have decided what I want out of life and have told H what I want. It is so hard to wait for H to change and to know when to move on or wait a little longer for possible changes.
I feel for you! I don't know about your e-mails, but if you want a response, maybe make sure you ask specific questions that don't need long responses so he can have a chance to succeed. Not that you should baby him or lower your standards, but if you want him to reach your goal and change, you may need to break it down into even smallers steps.
Just a suggestion.
Maria..
Enough about him.
What about you?
What about seeking individual counseling on your anger and 'need to rescue' responses that your perceptive marriage counselor suggested?
Work on you, fix you. The rest will follow.
*hugs*
Hey sweets,
you've asked me a couple of times... Anger : You know what? As long as someone is hitting me on my wound, the pain will be coming back... Me? I am good. I am angry for what he does/doenst do NOW, most of the times...
"Need to rescu" is part of my character. Is also part of my controlling nature. And I did work on that for a year with my previous C. Right now, I need to calm down. Stop improving-LOL...
He is now a major issue for me. He is affecting my life and the kids' lives. Like it or not this is the reality. I have accepted that. That's why I am dealing with it.
K
I have a feeling you will throw something at me if I ask but,...have you asked him what steps HE thinks he needs to take to get your marriage back on track? this would have to be put out there with you listening and not arguing a point but creating an enviroment where he knows and feels that he will be heard.
He has withdrawn into a shell, afraid to say or do anything because it may be the wrong thing. I don't admire his position and feel he brought this on himself but perhaps the above will help.
I am truly hoping you get everything that you so richly desire and deserve.
hugs, kat
Maria -
It is worth trying as an experiment. Just let him talk without dialog from you. And you can just paraphrase or validate with the greek equivalent of "uh huh". Resist the urge to control the conversation.
Just like any other time in the past, when the end felt near, I feel what I always feel:like I am in a comma. I cant react, I cant talk. I feel as if life is slipping away from my fingers.
The end with M? The woman I loved so much, that I married, with whom I created 2 lovely cratures that I am so proud of? How?
The way you describe to me how you feel, your reality, what I write maybe of no interest to you. You have have always been a creature of actions, of reality, now even more so. Consequently everything that has no specific action towards any direction, to you may mean nothing, I dont know that. It's what I am thinking lately.
You have come to believe that I cant offer you what you need and I feel the same way now. I believe it. The more you state it, the worse I feel. (I dont blame you, it's good that you share it, it's not your fault). I feel helpless. Like a paraplegic. Why cant I offer to you simple things? I am useless. An [censored]. The way things are stated, I realise that now. But since I dont know how or I cant offer you what you need, my inability to give what you need should not keep you in this sitch/limbo. I have no right to ask you that. But then what? The end? How? And on and on and on in my head. The same vicious circle. With no end and no beginning. 24 hours a day. With no solution.
M I love you. And no matter what happens I will always love you. And you are always the most important person in my life that means the world to me I told you about often : that I listen to, affects me, things you already know and I think you feel too, I dont have to describe them for you.
It's so hard feeling I am loosing you...
If that is what H wrote to you, that is exactly what I always get. He doesn't want to lose you, but he is not willing to give you what you want. If you say D, then he gets extremely upset, but if you say you want to work on things, he won't try. It is just so hard to know what to do. At some point, I think you just have to say enough is enough, which from what I have read you have done, and he has to choose. I agree with previous people. Maybe try to give him a chance to say what he wants to change about himself because then he said it and there can be more accountability because he came up with it.
((((((((((((((((((Kalni))))))))))))))))))))))
What feelings does his letter to you bring up?
I see a lot of internal pain in that letter, but no direction.
^ What Mish said!
PS - I could still smack him!
PSS - "Come to the light, Mr. Maria!!!!" GOD
K, we already knew that. He is under a lot of pressure from you, the C, himself, his family, work, etc etc etc. He doesn't act when he is under pressure - look at how long other steps took him.
I don't know about you, but none of that is news to me.
It's how he feels. It's real to him.
Is there a way you can show him that you are interested in him, that you really want to make things work without undoing some of the work you guys have done in MC?
Maybe phrasing is important. Instead of "I will not be making any more MC appts" instead "I want you to be in charge of making the MC appointments. I need you to be responsible for that part of our R."
I got similar letters from my W. You cant try to understand any of it. It just does not make sense.
How was it that he was keeping OW happy? Or was she just satisfied with a "shell of a man"?
Heh. Don't you remember her wanting to go to C and all the fights they had? Somehow, I don't think OW was happy....
It's the first I love you I got. So far was in another email:dont think I dont love you.
I am not sure if it is true though. Because not being able to let go, is not the same with wanting to be with someone because you love them. Feeling in love with someone else for too long and trying to make this work, made me wonder the same thing about myself. Love is a decision. Maybe I have become a cold person, maybe I am just tired.
The truth is, there is a huge difference to what I have been telling him and what he hears/believes. I never honestly thought he is not CAPABLE of giving me what I want, most of it at least. I am hurt and disappointed he chooses not to. He feels I am confident he cant. I say, feel, he wont.
That letter made me cry mish. For a man as I have described him, that doesnt talk about his feelings, saying he feels that life is slipping away from him, that he is useless and an a$$hole for not being able to offer me what I need, saying that he loves me, did affect me.
The letter has no sign of defensiveness as he showed the last week or so. It is a surrender letter. He surrenders. To the end. To whatever I say that is.
Yes, again he throws it back at me. I was tempted to answer back immediately :if that's what you choose, it is fine by me. I didnt. He feels I am so cold and misses a BIG part of my personality and psyche:how damn "soft" I am, how emotional intensely I live my life. The last couple of years, a couple of times, I had noticed he believed I am strong and confused that with cold/hard/killer. That is as far form the truth as it can get. But it is also true, I rarely let him see that part of me because...guess what...I was protecting him from my emotions. A vicious circle. I think the first time he saw me cry was when he told me he didnt love me anymore. I was always in control...
He misses the fact that when I get upset and insist on what I need it is because he has given it to me before. I know he could. He wanted "a clean cut". He needed me to be strong and put this back together, I am the strong one, the one that is so realistic (btw, I live in my fantasy life), he was ready to follow, not to lead or at least contribute 50% to the process of healing. Because I need healing.
I dont know what to do. I am wondering if I should push harder, stick to my guns without the slightest hesitation or just open my arms to him and guide him to my heart again.
Leap of faith? Falling for a trick? Being fooled again? Who knows? I sure dont.
Michelle remembers correctly. 6 months after he left me, she started complaining. I guess that is textbook case with As. When secrecy is no longer there, you get to see clearly. Plus, she made him feel he COULD make her happy. What else does a man need?
Were you crying from the letter because of pity for him or because he said some things dear to your heart?
Maybe you should encourage him to write more letters to you. Sometimes writing can cause one to gain clarity. Is receiving a heartfelt letter one of your love languages (words of affirmation)?
Take an optimistic view now - it was a huge babystep for him to write out his thoughts even though he is one confused and lost dude.
I thought it was a sad letter. A man that is at his wits end. Lost. This will take time if you are willing. From all evidence, you love this man and he loves you.
You both are hurting and he has to face the truth that he is not a strong man. Are you strong enough for both of you? Are you willing to be? Speak softly Maria. The heart heals better with kindness and compassion.
hugs, kat
So, he doesn't believe you think he can do it.
Maybe you should take a leap of faith and say, I KNOW you can do it, you did it before, we can do it again. I want to get back there. I want it to be better than it was before. I won't settle for less.
Wow, that letter was amazing. It made me cry... I don't know what to say except...he loves you. I know you dont feel lucky right now, because of what he puts you through...but you are.
He eloquently explained how desperately stuck he is. How about giving him some more time, and him going to IC, seriously?
I'm so glad he FINALLY wrote to you, from the heart and that he clearly admitted he loved you and some.
xxx
I dont know what to do. "Saving him" from his and my emotions hasnt worked in the past. Obviously. But I dont feel like pushing him further. I wonder if this is one of the times again, that I have to go against what "feels" right because it will end up wrong.
He hasnt called me at all today. He is deep in his cave and I think he may feel ashamed. I never wanted to make him feel inadequate. That's why the last month I tried to focus on what I need and how I want my life to be. I only asked him to tell me how he pictures his...
I cant still believe he thinks of me so strong and focused on reality. After all these years we've been together... Something was really wrong with our communication. It feels as he took what was presented to him as reality and never bothered to look at what IS, not what is presented to him.
I cant believe in the middle of his confusion, he still doesnt see that he has done all he could to lose me and I am still here, a DB dino, a woman that has showed all my soft spots. I tend to believe that he is one of those men, that need the woman to play games. I am not that kind of a woman.
I tried to show him how hurt I am and this is the result? I just dont know how to respond.
Yes Kerry, WoA is my #1 Love Language...
"I dont know what to do. I am wondering if I should push harder, stick to my guns without the slightest hesitation or just open my arms to him and guide him to my heart again."
Its a no brainer isnt it? Afterall, you got what you wanted, what you came here for.. you won him back, the A ended, he LOVES you, he wrote you a letter from the heart..which is what you have been telling us all you wanted him to do. Are you going to turn around and end it now? Why? That would be "cutting your nose off to spite your face"?... finally you are getting somewhere (slowly still!!!) you should... love him. Open your heart and welcome him in yes.
I kept saying, over and over, watch your communication with him, you are very strong and he may feel that you so strong in how you communicate that it leaves him at a loss or that his opinions/thoughts are useless, worthless. This was something bf said to me about how he felt before the bomb and I had to admit that he was right zs I too am a strong woman, a strong communicator but also yes, very soft and emotional (a paradox hey!). So I have turned that around and now I listen and I mean really listen.
For example, when your H said you have the show Friday, your answer was to state, "but you are not coming" - ask yourself, was that really the loving or most helpful response? How would it have made you feel if he had been that way with you? He tries, I know its not enough, but he tries.
Ok, so I thikn you should open your heart to him, drop all these protective mechansims, walls, barriers, "strength" - if it comes from a place of fear (protecting oneself from further hurt) then my BGF said, thats not being strong really, its a weakness and it wont serve you well.
So how to respond... well you need to talk, but for now, have you thanked him for the letter at least? How about acknoweldging you understand just how hard it may have been for him to write you such a letter and therefore that you appreciate it all the more and that you love him too...
Just leave it at that for now? No pushing, just an acknowledgement or some reassurance. He is probably very down, very afraid. Lost I thikn you or someone said.
xxx
Does he know that words of affirmation are the main key to your heart?
I would say respond with love and compassion. No demands, affirmations that yes you are hurt but together you can find a way to rebuild your marriage.
He knows how badly he screwed up. I often think I could have turned it around if I hadn't kept throwing how bad he messed up, how hurt I was, How wrong this all was in his face. Remember, I didn't find this site until the D was already filed.
I know you can do this. I also believe that you want to.
kat
No Kerry, has no clue of LLs. When I tried to introduce him to the concept, I thought my #1 LL was time, so if he remembered that, he has the wrong idea, in the meantime I realised it isnt... (and MC told us it inst time I am looking for, btw, she said it is shared experiences/connection that can be achieved with very little time if necessary)...
I never honestly thought he is not CAPABLE of giving me what I want, most of it at least. I am hurt and disappointed he chooses not to. He feels I am confident he cant. I say, feel, he wont.
He misses the fact that when I get upset and insist on what I need it is because he has given it to me before. I know he could.
Have you said this to him? These precise words?
IMO I would write back or tell him this simply and clearly, and then let him go in his cave and think about it. If he's using a cop out, he won't do anything with the info. BUt if he is really struggling with wanting to know how to love you and make you happy, then positive support may encourage him. But let him make the choice.
I don't know your sitch well enough to know where your H is coming from. Just trust your intuition on this.
He feels he isn't capable. He feels he is wrong no matter what he does.
You are asking him to step outside his comfort zone and he is terrified to fail.
So tell him things used to be good. Tell him he has succeeded before and can do so again. If you don't, he'll be too scared to step forward.
What do you have to lose?
One thing I read from one of the books over the past six months is something along the lines that without taking a risk you can't find love. Taking this off of you a bit. After all you have been through, you have a tough exterior and because of your experiences, you first response is to protect yourself, which is completely understandable, however, unless you are willing to open up a little, he won't open up. He sees you as a strong woman, which you are in order to stick with him, but now you need to start giving back some control to him and help him to succeed. This isn't playing a game, but rebuilding confidence for him and you. Something as small as asking him to make the next MC appointment. Don't demand, but let him know you are busy and would appreciate him taking the time to make the next MC appointment. Just sit back and wait for him to do it, or it could be some other small task. You really need to make a plan now to get back to each other. You both have walls built, and it may be that until you show that you are willing to open up and let the vulnerability show, he won't be able to take the next step to be the man.
Hey M, so I just showed bf the letter and asked him,as a reformed WAS, what he thought, this is what he said...
"WOW, wow. God, thats from the soul. He's really baring his soul here. And its desperate, he sounds, just, desperate. I mean he just.. hates himself. He really hates himself (gets tears in his eyes).. I know myself how that feels and you just get into this negative mindset and beat yourself up and the more you feel you are useless and no good to those who love you, the more worthless and useless you feel. And you get trapped by your thinking and its just a viscious circle, a viscious circle.. and yes he says here *reads out*...
I feel helpless. Like a paraplegic....I am useless. An [censored].. I realise that now. But since I dont know how or I cant offer you what you need...But then what? The end? How? And on and on and on in my head. The same vicious circle. With no end and no beginning. 24 hours a day. With no solution.
..with no end and no begiinning, on and on in my head...
Wow. The trouble is, he has put her through so much, he knows he cant expect her to help him out and he isnt even asking her to is he. God, it reminds me of BMF (the one who cant express himself, that also has depression and nearly left his W and D recently..) theres just this wall, this brick wall, they just cant open up and say whats inside. He needs help. He desperately needs help, its not about M..
Me - Yes, he went for MC and spoke to the C and just ended up crying
Well thats a start then, its a start right, thats a good sign that he could do that and crack but its not a quick fix and its going to take time. I know that when I was where he was, you have to get help, but the initiative has to come from him.
Gosh, its sad, I have completely changed my mind about him now, I know I've been saying the past few weeks, he is an idiot, but I dont think that now. I think he needs help, badly and that he has bared his soul here and clearly loves her. Its a start at least."
...So there you go chiquittita!
Love Al xx
Thanks guys... (tell A thanks as well Ali)
Had alot of reading to do to catch up, Hi Maria, the only additional comment I have other than what has been said is that the thought occurred to me, is what he did before that made you happy enough for the person you are now?
from posts I have read he was always busy, you had little time together etc.. were you truly happy then with what you had, the life and marriage you had? I mean pre A and subsequent discoveries plus "other" life changing events.
People change with or without afairs or MLC. We all do with life experiences,we hope,we think that those we love are changing along the same lines as we are and that we will still be the same people.
One of the biggest mistakes in peicing I read is that you can't just pick up where you left off and put the past behind you because by its very nature the old marriage has gone. You both are different people now.
So is the man you loved then and the things he did that made you happy, enough for the Maria you became/are now ?
I know that is a really hard question and not one I would care to have to answer but neds thinking on I fear.((((((())))))))
Hi Kalni,
I'm amazed and pleased by how you had your "crucible moment," and how it gave you direction! Mine also made me reconsider exactly what I wanted my life & any future M to look like. During that crucible day, I looked deep into myself to determine whether I still loved my H (it was 3 years into his MLC and I really thought I didn't any more), to discover that I did, which made the rest possible. But I get the feeling that whether/not you love your H is not a question you can answer yet?
As for his letter, he seems to list all the key points for depression: the depressed person feels that nothing will get better and that he's powerless to make improvements; feels too exhausted to tackle or accomplish change; feels guilty, worthless and self-critical; can't focus, make decisions or remember things. Which is pretty much the hell your H describes.
I think the fact that your H was even able to give you this window into how he feels is amazing--it took a lot just to write the letter. And he did it for YOU--I'm sure he never revealed a fraction of himself to OW like that. I hope he will be able to do IC, for both your sakes, to learn to move past this depression. Many depressed men used work as the crutch which keeps them functioning--resolving the depression might also allow him to create a better family/work balance.
That letter...your H sounds raw with shame.
Good Morning...
I didnt respond to his letter last night. I left a note on the table saying "thanks for writing to me. I know how difficult that is for you and I appreciate it very much, very much".
Time for some answers- to myself ...
I do love my H. I do. It's not the love I had for him. But it is there. I dont know how it survived since he did all he could to push me away. But it is there. I am not in love with him, I am not feeling the feeling you get when you first meet someone, I can see him clearly for what he is. I can live without him if I have to.
naej, H was spending little time with us even before all this happened. But he would be home around 9-10 every night, a schedule I knew form the first day I met him.
But he would bring me flowers, tell me he loved me, made love to me and whisper "you are my woman", bought me thoughtful gifts, send me little notes with "I am sorry" when we had fights... He would act jealous, be really nice and loving to the people I loved (my family and friends), was a dedicated father, etc..etc.
All that gradually changed a year after his mom died. 2005. Right when I started feeling I was so damn tired. 2006 he met her. I dont know if it has anything to do with that, but that is the timeline.
Overall I believe, he failed to grow up. I believe he dodged. (In the end it doesnt matter what I believe anymore).
My BFF who knows us well, told me last night that this is what she has been telling me all along:she had suggested I keep going to MC because she thought H wont go to IC by himself, he needs me there, with him.
She has told me, to try and figure out if I have the strength to pull the cart a little bit more, just enough to get him out of this hole. She believes he cant do it on his own. That he needs me.
I was very affected by the email. I want to stop his pain. But I am wondering what the right balance is between stepping in and allowing him to sort it out for himself...
K
Kalni,
Just wanted you to know I got your message. I am not ignoring you. I was in hospital last night and am going back now. I hope to be able to catch up on your sitch and post this afternoon.
Dear Maria, this is I suspect one of the hardest things you will ever have to decide.
Your BFF is right he does need you. I have no doubt you can pull the cart a bit furthur/longer but for how long is the question. Can you do it for always.
It is good that you still can say you love him,I don't think the in love feelings are going to be there for now.
I am glad you left him the note,maybe it will boost his confidence alittle.
I feel such sorrow for your H, he is in pain. I truly hope it will be strong enough for him to seek out the help he needs. He has to do this for him.
Holding you both in my prayers.
Maria,
I have wanted for so long to see a letter from him, and now that you have it, I don't know what to say. I agree completely with Cyrena. He is depressed. He speaks to you from the depths of a depression. And I don't know what to do about that. I am sorry that the letter was not more optimistic. i was hoping for optimism.
Hi M! Well, it was a long time coming, but maybe his letter arrived just in the nick of time huh??
I loved your note, well done by the way..well done. I agree with Cyrena and others (hi Cyrena!!).. I often said I thought your H was depressed, that he was dealing with it by being a workaholic, some men go that way with it. And that I never thought he seemed happy these past 1, 2 years. And I agree, there is NO WAY he would have written an email like that, or opened up in that way to ow. No way. Not from a soul level like that, so console yourself with that hey?
I think that is a positive in all of this. And that he loves you!!!
Oh and I think you can step in a little, just enough compassion and practical help to help him help himself, because he seems VERY lost and paralysed, as he said (paraplegic, lol... and after those analogies I was giving you about Christopher Reeves etc, ha).. like, for example, bf asked me for help, so I booked a doctors appointment for him.. but he went along and spoke to him and was honest and started on ADs again, which was down to him. So continuing with MC for now is a good idea, from your BFF?
xxx
Maria,
I think your H is lost and I think you feel you don't have enough in you to do this for both of you......and that is right. To heal the R, IMO, both parties have to be strongly committed. I am not saying your H can't get to that point, but he needs a lot of help and counselling. Can you wait that long?
You can't replicate what you had before things went wrong in the M, and before the A. It has to be a new R, one where you have both learned from what happened. You have to come to it as equals and adults.
How it appears to me is that YOU have done a lot of soul searching and 'sorted' your head out, but your H is in the mixed up stage and he is hoping you can rescue him. You can't, as you well know. You are not his mother, you are his W.
So if you want to give your M a chance still, I would tell him that you want to keep trying, you want to see if with C'ing he can start to feel that you can be together , but if he doesn't want to make that effort then it probably will end in D.
I think he is subconsciously playing on your emotions in that letter and looking for you to reassure him. He is scared but also sort of threatening you with the things he said at the same time.
This is very hard but you need to lay the foundations well in order to build a strong, new M. You know that I still have ups and downs and my H has always been so good since his A - if my H was leaving me with big question marks still, I know piecing would be damn near impossible for me.
I obviously don't know you like Ali does; she has met you etc., so her take in things is maybe more accurate, but that letter did not make me think aaaaaah - he's opening up - nice warm fuzzy feelings- it made me think that he was confused and wallowing in self pity and depression. That's a hard place to be and as Ali knows, it takes a strong person to deal with that. It is redeemable though sometimes.
((((((HUGS)))))))
Good afternoon Maria....I think a virtual hug may be a propos ((((Kalni)))>
The love that you feel when you first meet someone (the euphoric stage) does not last forever. Some people go from relationship to relationship trying to keep that feeling alive. That euphoric feeling turns into something less "emotinal" but deeper, I hope that is what you feel your H...and what he feels for you . No need to add that u can live without him. We can all live without someone, we adapt. Can you CHOOSE to live without him? I think the answer to that is a resounding NO. Otherwise, with what transpired he would have been history.
One last comment. You have figured out your love language and your H does not know what it is. That does your relationship no good at all. What is his LL and what are you doing to fill his cup everyday?
Where have you been John? Acts of Service. I have salad in the fridge for him everynight, dinner, make sure there is warm water for his shower in the morning, buy him little things he needs(his special toothpaste, special food the rest of us dont eat etc etc), take care of his clothes, let him sleep in in the morning etc. There isnt much I can do, I try to, even though we dont see each other.
Saffie thanks! I hope the hospital thing wanst serious.
I am closer to your point of view than feeling fuzzy and excited about his email. I am preparing an answer back. I am working on it.
Lotus, you must have missed another long email he wrote me, in October, where he stated why he wants to reconcicle. That was a more optimistic letter...
Thanks for the prayers naej.
Ali, we'll talk...
K
That letter made me cry mish. For a man as I have described him, that doesnt talk about his feelings, saying he feels that life is slipping away from him, that he is useless and an a$$hole for not being able to offer me what I need, saying that he loves me, did affect me.
I pulled this qoute out. This is exactly what my STBXH felt. He coulddn't restore himself... in the end. I couldn't do it for him and you can't do it for him. For as long as he needs you or some Ow to make him "complete" .... he is broken.
That's what everyone who talks to STBXH says about him. He always talks so well of me, to others. They don't get it. If he thinks so well of me why isn't he trying to be here. Well, he did for 18 months but what he said in the end was " I just can't give you what you need and I don't understand. I try, and I try and I just can't."
It's very sad. I am sorry you are still getting hurt by all of this. I didn't realize how paralyzed I was until about a week after he left (2nd time) but all the emotions that were weighing me down.
Big Hugs to YOu!
Lurking, hugs.
I had a great morning, btw. love, Goldey
Hi girls, hi goldey... Good for you!
Sandy, I know this is a huge risk. And I am not taking things lightly.
I sent him him a reply to his letter. Saying he is not useless to me, I am still here after all!! Saying to him that who he is didnt scare me away, that "in love" is based on good side presented, love is based on loving all sides and I am still here. I told him what is pushing me away is that the last 3 years he lost himself, lives his life with no direction, no feeling of belonging, no goals, no happiness. He left his home, a mans' castle, only to wander aimlessly, compare our "team" to a non important person, and still refuses to move forward, refuses to improve, refuses to mature, grow up. I told him this refusal is what will push me away for good.
I told him to me, he seems in a hole, I cant pull him out. I will be there if he asks my help, but I cant be doing the weight lifting, he needs to own the process.
In a few words, I decided to stick to my guns but made it clear, I will not let him down when he is "down", I just wont save him.
He called and said my email wasnt mean. He said it didnt offer anything "new" but he understands what I am saying. We talked for a bit. I asked him if he misses her, if there could be a chance he is still in love and that doenst allow him to dedicate himself to us. He said no, he said they have absolutely no contact and that he already told me he loves ME.
We talked a little bit about sex. He said, to him, sex will come once things get better, he is not in a hurry. He thinks like a woman for God's sake!! He wants us to "connect" before we do make love. I told him I think lack of physical connection for me is a problem that only gets worse. We see that differently obviously.
I will suggest he makes a firm plan with the C. Maybe I wont suggest it but let her tell him again as she already did : he goes every week and we go every 2 weeks.
In the meantime, I will stay focused, calm and try to get my mind off this. I will try to enjoy our time together and watch him. I am pulling the cart for a little while longer. He seems to realise what his responsibilities are. He knows he is not getting off the hook this time.
K
He said, to him, sex will come once things get better, he is not in a hurry. He thinks like a woman for God's sake!! He wants us to "connect" before we do make love. I told him I think lack of physical connection for me is a problem that only gets worse. We see that differently obviously.
I dont understand this. If you want sex, I cant see how he can resist if you go about it the right way.
But I dont Kerry... Sex is (one of the) an issue I have. Not very...confident about it.
Is it the chicken/egg theory?...
Women need to feel loved to have sex; Men need to have sex to feel loved.
I thought your response was pretty brilliant. And it seems he took it well. Even if he said it was nothing new, I think you're faith that he can do it did help (IMHO that's why he called to talk about it).
I am like that too. Not very confident/aggressive.
I was very affected by the email. I want to stop his pain. But I am wondering what the right balance is between stepping in and allowing him to sort it out for himself...
If you were his best friend, how would you help him? Maybe that's a starting point?
After 3 years and 2 months of separation, my H has been living with us for over a month. He seems to have stopped contact with his affair partner (contact that I have proof she initiated the last few times before he moved back in although we dont speak as if he has moved back in), he erased her phone number after I have asked him to, he tells me he doesnt miss her, want her or loves her and is willing to go to MC with me. And not only willing to go, the first 2 times we went, the first time he used his time to convince me why we should be together and how solid our R was/is and the second time, he "cracked" and opened up to her and me.
After pushing for some kind of clear direction, I received that letter from him. Over the 3,5 years we are in this mess, I have used emails at least 200 times to talk to him. He has used mails only 4 (I think). One was a letter asking me to reconcile after I found out about the A and one the day before yesterday. So yes, writing that email, to him was difficult.
Apart from that, H seems to still mirror my behaviour and tries to avoid anything that he believes would bring tension between us. Unfortunately, that means he avoids sharing with me things about the past and his thoughts/feelings... which makes me feel we are not "connected". He also tells me that he thinks what we are going trhough now is normal granted the separation and affair and that he thinks sex should follow because right now, he feels we cant share intimacy.
He is happy to go out with me, he is willing to do things with me. He calls often and makes sure I know where he is/what he does and with whom.
His job is still an issue, during the week we dont see each other at all and the weekends are only 36 hours long for us. I can sense that he is not looking forward to being more with me, he is walking on eggshells and that exhausts him. I am confident that WILL change when he starts feeling happiness in our home, with me.
Tonight we are going to that show. I plan to make this a good night. I will look good, be tender, show confidence in me, find my humor, bring back some of the sunshine...
Even though we havent agreed on it, I will make with myself an agreement that I will only initiate R talks, once every 2 weeks apart from the time in MC. BUT, I will also be honest with him and express how I feel if something comes up.
Any advice/tips/suggestions on how to relax the sitch, help H but do not do his work for him is welcome. It is obvious to me that if I push harder he will crack. He is walking on eggshels constantly and since I have been there I know how much it sucks...
I dont want to be asking for something he cant give because of THE WAY I am asking, do you know what I mean?
Tomorrow is my D's show. I am excited about that too. Today is a difficult day at work and I am not working...
Yesterday I bought a dress that costed 469 euros, for 60!!! A little classy black dress that fits me perfectly and I love it!!!!!!!!
I will see how my finances will go this month and will finally schedule for highlights and massage. I may look into trying pilates too. This belly of mine needs some work and the summer is approaching fast!!
K
Hi M!
I am so glad you decided to let him take you to the show tonight (instead of your mother, lol!).. and sounds like it will be just the thing for you two to just relax, create some new memores and have a lovely evening, with you in your sassy little black dress. I leave it to the others to offer advice as you asked above, but from your official astrologer
here is some inspirational words from Yasmin Boland, now that Mercury (planet of communication) is FINALLY out of its shadow phase today and moving forwards once again...
Friday February 5 – Moon into ScorpioMoon Meditation: "After the discussions, the intimate moments!"
If you have had to work things through with your partner this week, tonight should bring a welcome change of speed – it’s a great time to get to know each other again up close and personal if you get my drift. We’re through rather a tough cycle and what comes next should be refreshing. However, whatever happened last week happened for a reason so do try to have a think about what you learned.
I don't have advice, except maybe you should reassure him a bit as well. Let him know again that you love him and want to be with him. As you said he is ashamed, and letting him know you still want to be with him, is important. Show him your soft side, like you are doing by going to the show. Show him you are still a woman that enjoys his company.
I would love to have my husband come to me and do everything H is doing for you. He is being open, honest, telling you exactly where he is at all times so you know he isn't with OW. He is trying to reassure you, and if it is extremely hard for him to share his emotion, he even did that. He seems like he wants this to work so I understand being cautious and not settling for less than you want, but look at the steps he is making and encourage him so he will take more.
Ok- lets have a stab at this..............
He is happy to go out with me, he is willing to do things with me. He calls often and makes sure I know where he is/what he does and with whom.
So, by this, to me, he is showing he likes being in a R with you and he wants to reassure you. It is easy to do - little effort for good return.
Apart from that, H seems to still mirror my behaviour and tries to avoid anything that he believes would bring tension between us. Unfortunately, that means he avoids sharing with me things about the past and his thoughts/feelings... which makes me feel we are not "connected". He also tells me that he thinks what we are going trhough now is normal granted the separation and affair and that he thinks sex should follow because right now, he feels we cant share intimacy.
This is the hard work bit for him, the part he can't deal with at the moment, and the part the C should be able to help him with. Would your H read books about reconciliation after an A? I think this has been mentioned before, ( and I can't remember exactly
which book it was that really made my H realise that I needed to know certain things even though they would hurt me. I know it wasn't the 'Just Good Friends book'; it may have been called something like After the Affair, or Healing from an Affair - trawl Amazon and read some of the descriptions and reviews of those types of books. It amazed my husband that I needed to know certain things that he obviously wasn't telling me because he felt ashamed he had had an A and so he convinced himself that telling me the details would hurt me. However, I needed to know. Reading it from somone elses perspective really helped him open up.
My husbands job is still an issue. I feel he still works in a way that would easily enable him to have an A and hide it from me if he wanted to. I go through periods of feeling insecure. However, he earns very good money so I am having to lump this.
I think you need to go out and have some good times together and you need to get your confidence back Kalni re the sexual side of things. Maybe this avoidance of sex has nothing to do with you at all. It may be he is having some sort of problem that he won't open up about. How does he react to just your touch? Holding hands?
Laughter is always good medicine and breaks the ice. People who smile and laugh a lot are always more attractive. Out of C'ing and when out socially try to keep it light and fluffy. Even flirt a bit with other guys around if there are any. Remember what it is like to feel wanted. He obviously does want you - I just am not sure if that is because you make him feel safe or because he wants his M. Only time will tell.
Have a lovely night out and knock them dead in your new dress!!!!
Hi Saffie, awest, Ali,
I have bought and read all books mentioned on the boards about affairs. Not Just friends, My husband's affair..., healing after infidelity, etc etc. The problem is they are all in English. He cant read them. He tried once but it was too difficult for him to understand. The only one I have in Greek is The Monogamy Myth, the translation is not that good and I dont like it.
I was hoping the C will help him with opening up as well. That and time and feeling secure again to do so.
He obviously does want you - I just am not sure if that is because you make him feel safe or because he wants his M. Only time will tell.
I dont understand that. Both options dont sound good to me. What do you mean making him feel safe or because he wants the M? Shouldn't he feel both and love me on top of that?
Thanks, I hope we have a good night...
K
I hope that you both have a lovely time, relax and enjoy your time together. I think building more new, pleasant and loving memories will be important in this healing.
I admire you in dealing with this.
hugs, kat
I dont understand that. Both options dont sound good to me. What do you mean making him feel safe or because he wants the M? Shouldn't he feel both and love me on top of that?
I agree with YOU Kalni. YOU don't need to make HIM feel safe. C'mon here. You don't need to do ANYTHING except to recognize a true desire
on his part to want to be with you and then
observe a pattern of making an effort to recommit, do the work, etc.
Please...don't settle for anything less. Don't let anyone here brainwash you into staying unhappy with someone who cheated on you and then does anything short of that article you printed here. THOSE people LEARNED....and they CHOSE to love each other and they RECOMMMITTED...and they DID THE WORK.
Stay tuf'
Sagapo.
FIB
Apart from that, H seems to still mirror my behaviour and tries to avoid anything that he believes would bring tension between us. Unfortunately, that means he avoids sharing with me things about the past and his thoughts/feelings... which makes me feel we are not "connected". He also tells me that he thinks what we are going trhough now is normal granted the separation and affair and that he thinks sex should follow because right now, he feels we cant share intimacy.
I don't think that sharing things about the past is the most helpful thing right now. You're both feeling really emotionally vulnerable and I think that it's a good time to focus on the present, on really basic things like: how am I feeling in my body right now? It would be so great if you could get a massage
together, or go to a Turkish bath, or a meditation session, or a gentle yoga session. Is there any way that you could have a shared experience of relaxation and being in the body? It sounds like there is a lot of "head stuff" going on. You both need to get grounded and be fully
in your bodies. It would be so great if you could share that "aaaaahhhhh" feeling when you truly de-stress.
It is obvious to me that if I push harder he will crack. He is walking on eggshels constantly and since I have been there I know how much it sucks...
I dont want to be asking for something he cant give because of THE WAY I am asking, do you know what I mean?
I think it would help you to try to only ask for things that your H realistically can do
right now. If you're feeling an emotional need, try not to let your mind go into the whole idea of how you need your emotional needs met in the future. Just try to figure out if there's anything your H can do to directly meet that need at that moment, and ask for it with the understanding that he may refuse. That's a way that you can take responsibility for what's yours and be authentic with him, not rescuing or enabling.
Hope my ramblings are helpful.
If you want to bring up the past, make it only about good memories together.
If you want to bring up the past, make it only about good memories together
Fully agree with Kerry.
The past mistakes only continue him in his cycle of depression. Focusing more fully on fun times, loving times, happy moments may help pull his head around a little more.
Are you 100% sure that his LL is AOS?
Maria,
I meant by that sentence, I am not sure if your H even knows at the moment if he wants to be with you because he is confused and scared and you make him feel safe, or because he wants the whole thing that M involves......which yes is about loving you, being committed, pulling his share of the weight AND feeling safe.
I don't think you should stay and settle for anything less than him putting in that effort to show you he is really committed to meeting you half way and making your future M a partnership. Anything less would be doing yourself an injustice. Anything less and it just will not work long term.
Hope you are out making some good new memories tonight.
Kalni,
Let the moments, dates, days show the truth. Take each of these one at a time, making sure that you are observing boundaries (your boundaries), and true to yourself in your speech and actions. The gathering of days will present trends and truths. If his actions align with his words of desire to restore the R, there is your answer. If they do not, there is your answer.
His letter oozes helplessness, hopelessness. Protect yourself so that you are neither sucked in to it, nor are sucked into rescuing him from that.
Greek
Greek,
When you have a chance, could you take a look at my thread? I was wondering how to react to my W over the weekend. I need a WAW's perspective. Thanks!
Sorry for the hijack.
Greek,
When you have a chance, could you take a look at my thread? I was wondering how to react to my W over the weekend. I need a WAW's perspective. Thanks!
Sorry for the hijack.
I sure will, Stuck. Been meaning to anyway. A little busy this weekend in Louisiana...if you know what I mean! But I think I can break away from the celebrating to check in.
Cheers~
Greek
Hey little lady in the little black dress... how was the concert??
You feeling the jupiter effect yet !? I hope you and H just enjoyed it and each other..
xxx
I am feeling sh!tttt!
excuse my french...
oh dear, that'll be a no then..! What happened?
Hey I have to have an MRI scan for a possible pituitary tumour!!, I'll join you on the feeling sh1t! Ah well, you gotta smile though, even when things are tough...
xx
merde!
actually this term is also used to wish someone luck...that goes out to you Ali.
Sorry Al, I am sure it will be nothing... Afterall, this is supposed to be our year, right?
Nothing happened. The show was amazing, we both enjoyed it very much. 99% of the songs were about love etc etc. He didnt even touch my hand once.. The first one goes: "go back where you love, she didnt deserve all this sorrow you gave her, make it good, tell what she needs to hear, love her with all your heart to ease the pain..."
I hope he heard the lyrics...
Then we went for late dinner to a italian. He refused to drink wine and after a while he was tired. We came home and he watched TV while I went to bed.
Sat was ok. Running around all morning for shopping and things, cooked lunch got in a fight caused he yelled at me in front of my D and she started crying saying "I dont like it when you and daddy fight" and I went to where he was and ... gave him the finger. Childish I know and poor choice but I couldn say anything so my D wouldnt hear me so I chose something... silent.
He is here. I dont think he loves me though. I guess time will tell.
K
Kalni -
you gave him the finger? LMAO (sorry, i know it's not funny)
Had a similar incident today... will post later. wish I would have read yours first. would have been appropriate!
HUGS
My stars Maria, all those love songs and nothing!!! have you checked he has a pulse?
There's slow and then there's your H.
Words fail me.
I know naej, I know...
The finger, well, it is completely out of my character, I dont thik I have given the finger to anyonr in my life, not even while driving-lol- but you know what? I enjoyed it!
He hated it... Made comments about it. Nothing I really listened.
I find it ironic that he has made it clear in the past, before the bomb and since that he doesnt like your anger.. but that HE is the one that gets angry and shouts. That is NOT acceptable, even in any R, unless you did something real bad (??).. to shout at you in front of the children, not on at all.. and its even less acceptable after what has gone on and that he is supposedly trying to win back your love etc.
And as for the lack of affection last night...Well, maybe he is depressed or something, who knows...
At a loss to be honest. Sorry mate xxx
WOW....all that romance and love songs and no hand holding?? He's a zombie! Has o be. Even men who aren't romantic at heart are affected by their partner being affected. Geez!!!
Ali, when are you having the MRI?
Hey K, sorry to hear about your evening. A nice romantic concert followed by Italian food and wine and then the couch and your wife goes to bed alone? ..... I am shaking my head in disbelief. I wish I could try to explain his lack of warmth, I am not even talking about sex here....just some type of physicality or positive emotion. I think the time for excuses is over. I am sure he did not act this way 4 or 5 years ago?
Hang in there Maria....I can't believe it is as bad as you describe it.
Sorry to hear what happened - and bravo on the finger!~
I hate to say it my H would have been the same way - before the bomb, and it would be worse now! I guess that's why we are separated now. The yelling is awful, but the coldness is really painful too. It just cuts to the bone and makes you feel like a non-person. I know it. And you deserve so much more. You just can't get blood from a stone. I feel for you. So sorry.
Kalni,
Sorry to hear things are not going so well.
It's weird.. They say the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
My W and I have hardly ever fought these last two years of our stich. I mean once in a while we do get "short" and maybe raised our voice a little with each other but we never have yelled at each other.
Sometimes I feel it would be easier if we did. At least you are interacting with each other. Without that then you are kind of in limbo land.
I have been busy studying for my exam and W has been busy studying for her interview so I just read my post and saw what you wrote:
Doc,
do you have an email at the alt? I want to send you something about affairs. By the author of PM. It's really good.
If you are talking the “Alt” I think you are I have not been there for a loooog time. I am going to check if I can find it but just to let you know Saffie is there and she knows my E-mail
Change according to him, to according to me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu1aQvm5MrU&feature=fvstAccording to you
I'm stupid,
I'm useless,
I can't do anything right.
According to you
I'm difficult,
hard to please,
forever changing my mind.
I'm a mess in a dress,
can't show up on time,
even if it would save my life.
According to you. According to you.
But according to him
I'm beautiful,
incredible,
he can't get me out of his head.
According to him
I'm funny,
irresistible,
everything he ever wanted.
Everything is opposite,
I don't feel like stopping it,
so baby tell me what I got to lose.
He's into me for everything I'm not,
according to you.
According to you
I'm boring,
I'm moody,
you can't take me any place.
According to you
I suck at telling jokes cause I always give it away.
I'm the girl with the worst attention span;
you're the boy who puts up with that.
According to you. According to you.
But according to him
I'm beautiful,
incredible,
he can't get me out of his head.
According to him
I'm funny,
irresistible,
everything he ever wanted.
Everything is opposite,
I don't feel like stopping it,
so baby tell me what I got to lose.
He's into me for everything I'm not,
according to you.
I need to feel appreciated,
like I'm not hated. oh-- no--.
Why can't you see me through his eyes?
It's too bad you're making me decide.
According to me
you're stupid,
you're useless,
you can't do anything right.
But according to him
I'm beautiful,
incredible,
he can't get me out of his head.
According to him
I'm funny,
irresistible,
everything he ever wanted.
Everything is opposite,
I don't feel like stopping it,
baby tell me what I got to lose.
He's into me for everything I'm not,
According to you.
According to you.
According to you
I'm stupid,
I'm useless,
I can't do anything right.
When I first heard this song, I loved it. I completely thought it was perfect for where I am. It is a great song that reminds me that I am a wonderful, beautiful woman and if H doesn't ever get that through his head...one day a guy will.
Maria,
You are letting him suck you both 'in' and 'down' - a typical thing that happens with a depressed partner. Do you think your C would suggest that your H seeks help, ( either medicinal or through something like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - or even both), to help him, (and you), through this difficult time.
Your H's lack of ability to react to something like those songs, smacks of depression and wallowing in his own sh!t without seeing a way forwards. I suffered terribly with depression, ( and I still struggle with it from time to time), and trying to feel anything or sort yourself out when you feel like that is just awful. My sex drive went completely, and although I knew I loved my H, I also was sort of numb to him. I know it doesn't make sense that one can be like that, but one can be. I think in hindsight I was going through some sort of 'transitional crisis' and I just didn't know where to turn. My H couldn't help me, and I ran around doing silly things because I thought they would make me feel better, but they didn't. I acted the princess, I had my H buy me my horses, I spent on whatever I wanted to etc. etc......... My H pandered to it but nothing brought us closer in the way he wanted as I was just running around like a headless chicken. In the end I had to hit rock bottom and seek help in order for me to heal. No-one else could help me. My H certainly couldn't. As he was the one closest to me he was the one that got the brunt of my anger/ distress. I believe that is what drove him to have the A he had.
It was only because he could see I was changing and I started reaching out to him and telling him once more what he meant to me, that he told me about his A, and then after a turbulent week of comings and goings, he broke it off. I have now learned that I have to share with him when I see these black holes of depression coming on instead of turning in on myself and away from him, which is what I want to do when it happens.
I don't know what triggers it in me. Certainly there is a family disposition towards depression, and I think I started to feel that I was moving on to the next 'stage' of my life and that my children didn't need me as much. I felt lost. I have so enjoyed having young children and watching them bloom and grow.It was a magical stage of life and I didn't want it to end. Suddenly they started to not need me as much. Of course in reality they do still need me, but in a different way. However, I am no longer needed for the 'structure' of their day and so I don't feel 'needed'. In theory I could stay in bed until lunchtime and just 'play ' with my horses. my feelings of self worth took a huge hit. Firstly I had had a great career where I actually was the highest earner, then I chose to become a SAHM, and my H's career really took off, but I didn't miss working as I had four lovely children to look after, then Boom!, I am not as needed and my worth in the job market has dropped radically as I have been a SAHM mom for the last 19 years and so my market worth, (and with it my self esteem) is very low; even though I have run, and continue todo so, a part -time tax consultancy business.
Sorry, I feel I have gone into unload mode on you. I am just trying to explain that OW for your H may just have been a way of trying to run away from something your H doesn't understand and he realised it wasn't the answer he thought it was. He doesn't know what the answer is, but he needs to hit rock bottom and find out for himself. I think you are getting the brunt of the anger/ moodiness from him whilst he is on this journey.Inside he feels helpless and numb; he knows he loves you but is unable to express it. Just my guess anyway.
I am sorry that your night out turned out the way it did.
(((((HUGS))))
Saffie,
he already once told me she wasnt he one he feel inl ove with, it was all he felt through her...The new, the thrill, the no responsibilities... I get that. What bothers me is, he wont try different things with me to see what the result would be.
Yesterday he yelled at me because I "yelled" at my D. She kept moving her head and I couldnt make her hair for the show. I was stressed and I told her with a loud voice "stop moving your head". Things like that happen lot in my home. We are a loud family. Probably too loud for any of you guys. But my D wasnt hurt or anything and he came to yell at me to stop yelling at her... What pissed me off was that a day before that, he made a deal out of me saying one phrase to him and that phrase was "I dont need your yelling" while I was getting the kids ready for school and he was asleep. My D was refusing to go and I was sweet talking to her to get her ready. He made a big thing out of me saying that one phrase in front the kids which I did to let him know I didnt need him to take sides, I was managing...
I was about to send him a letter saying:
"Call her, tell her she was right, this love of ours is dead as she told you many times in the past, go make time for her in expense of your work and kids, be tender to her, call her sweet angel, make love to her 4-5 times a day, share your life and dreams with her and leave me alone to find someone to give me the exact same things... I give up. The last 3-4 months were the last proof I needed I did everything in my powers to fix this..."
I havent send it yet.
K
Maria,
Don't send that - or at least wait 48 hours to let things settle and so you are really sure you mean it.
We are a loud family too. Things like you mentioned happen in our house also.......and I bet they do in most people's homes.
My H accuses me of being 'sharp' with the children and thinks I am angry when I think am not; it's all a question of how both people interpret it and how the children play on it. They sense the tension - and yes, sometimes they play on it.
Please wait before considering sending what you wrote. It is a knee jerk reaction because you are hurting at the moment. She is not the woman he wants to be with and so your letter will not do what I think you want it to.
If you want to give up do that, but there is no need throw the OW in to the mix in doing that.
I think the time to give up is when you feel indifferent to your H - not when you feel angry. Anger shows me you still have feelings for him. I knew my sister's M was over when I saw complete indifference in her towards him. You do not seem to show signs of that.
Give the C a chance to work on your H. You are still in the very early days of that.
Hey M, how you doing?
I agree with Saffie, dont send it, sounds kind of bitter anyway, you know? Saffie is right, he DOESNT want to be with ow. Which reminds me, aside from your H's issues, you really really need to let it go now.. this obsession that he is contacting her/ likely to go back to her. Its damaging what little chance you have left.
As for H, the way Saffie describes the effect depression had on her (eventhough she 'knew' she loved her H, she couldnt really show it, or ML to him).. sounds exactly like my bf. He walked out afterall hey and wouldnt even tell me his address for 5 months. And yet he says now, he knew he loved me all along, he was just in a mess, 'mental' etc.. but yes, continued to appear largely normal and do well at work etc.
They call it living outside the wall - living with a depressed person. You cannot penetrate and its not your fault. You need to stop taking it personally, as you are, and seeing it as rejection, which is what I had to do to forgive my bf and make our new R work.. and yes it is very hard. So, you also have a choice, you dont have to stay with him if you are finding this too damn hard.
How about calling that C and asking her if she feels your H is depressed and would benefit from ADs? How about talking to H about his lack of connection with you and the world around him and ask him if he feels he may be depressed? Bearing in mind this is a very hard thing for anyone to admit to, neverlone seek help for.
Love Al xxx
PS and dont forget, he sounded desperate and.. resigned, helpless, given up even perhaps, in a letter to you just this week:
"You have come to believe that I cant offer you what you need and I feel the same way now. I believe it. The more you state it, the worse I feel. (I dont blame you, it's good that you share it, it's not your fault). I feel helpless. Like a paraplegic. Why cant I offer to you simple things? I am useless. An *rsehole."
You dont get past feeling like that a day later and able to have a happy, romantic evening!?
It sounds like he has lost all confidence in himself. I dont know, but you keep wanting something from him and it looks like he is trying to tell you that, for whatever reason (grief over his mother, guilt, shame, remorse, depression, who knows!) he just doesnt have it to give you right now. But, he used to didnt he? 4-5 years ago, before all this mess?? If he did, and it was enough then, then you know whats possible (and more if he can grow with it), but if it was never there.. then, what are you hanging on for??
Hi Maria, Saffie is right! don't send the letter,well not in temper-wait.
Me I'd be tempted to gift wrap him,tie a ribbon on him and deliver him personally, but then I do have a hot temper, very slow to anger but oh boy if you do it's like "light blue touch paper and stand well back".
I think it is frustration more than anger with you,and who could blame you but you have gotten this far,he has started MC but at the end of it all IS how much time have you got?
Is the love you have for him enough,will HE be enough for you even when he is well again.
You have grown and discovered who you are and what you need because of the situation you found yourself in, he has got to get back to the man he was and then start catching up. No quick fix,light bulb moments are rare but can and do happen.
I guess the dreaded P word is still not allowed so maybe perserverance oophs thats P as well.
I hate he can't just show how much he loves you.
I havent send it yet girls. Today was worse. We went for lunch with the kids and I hardly spoke one sentence to him. All morning we wre passing each other at hallways and goign in an dout of the PC room. I smoked half a pack during lunch and he made a comment about it. He knew I was feeling really upset but never asked me why, thank God, the kids were there...
I wasnt silent out of anger but out of ...disapointement. I dont know if I have been depressed in the past, I am sure I was close if not it, but I dont understand how he is that depressed with me and wasnt with her. Maybe I am no good for him.
Ali, you say let it go. Sure, why? What has changed? I am holding on to her more now exactly because his bahavior has nothing to do with being reassuring or loving. Why should I let it go? Do you KNOW he is not contacting her? His words? Well, he said the same words for over a year and he was sleeping with her while staying over here, going to MC, saying he wanted our M to work out. Maybe it didnt start out that way, but that's the way it ended.
Isnt it weird he has never logged in his yahoo account from the PC at home? He knows I have the keylogger and never logs in. How does that sound? I told you, I am "here" but a lot smarter.
It may be far from the truth and that's what I am thinking but where do I get the reassurance I need? He cant be loving, he cant be transparent, well? Let it go? No, I wont let it go unless it happens. I am not forcing myself to bypass natural feelings.
Friday night I wore a strapless black elegant dress and a lavender leather jacket, had great make up on, smelled good and guess what? He never made a comment, didnt know what I wore the next morning I asked him about it. As I was telling John, I would have told my MOM she was pretty if we were going out... You know how I felt for spending an hour to get ready, putting make up on, lotions etc etc? STUPID!!!! Yep, it's my issue. All this pop pyscology about doing it for you sounds good but hey, I am primitive, I still like my man to tell me I look gorceous and actually think so. That's the way I like it. Probably need lifetime therapy to get over that...
And you know what else? I can be very loving and forgiving and all those things that have booked me a first class seat to heaven, but sometimes, I want some of that back.
I want this M to work. I love him. But this isnt going well. And it breaks my heart to see my kids be so excited about him staying over. I guess my whole M was a mistake.
K
No It isn't/wasn't a mistake. It hurts all the way over here to read about so much pain. I think you should focus on you a bit now and what makes you feel strong and happy. Someone else can't do that for you or for him.
He will not change over night. It is painful for him too that he can't be what you want right this moment. Loving support is what you can give. When you got dressed up, was it more for him than for you? He won't see it now I am afraid. He doesn't see any good in himself so maybe find the small things he does that are sweet and respond.
I hope I am helping you a bit. kat
Maria,
It sounds to me that you are looking too much to your H. You are sounding fused.
I suggest you get on with your life and see whether or not he is able to follow and stand up and be a man.
I agree that transparency is a must, and his lack of it is worrying. I personally would see that as a big red flag. However, there is a possibility that there is something going on that doesn't involve any OW. Maybe he has job problems, financial worries,is seeking help for depression. It could be any sort of thing.....or of course it could be OW.
Whatever the reason is, STOP doing things to impress your H and do things for yourself and your children. You are making yourself unhappy trying to attract his interest sexually and at the same time you are showing him that you are vulnerable and available and waiting for him on his time scale. He has you hanging there.
I don't know about your experiences at school, but at my school, the popular kids were the ones who didn't appear to care what others thought about them, but they did what they wanted to. Their confidence oozed out and it made them attractive, (even though often they weren't the most physically attractive of the students). The ones that looked to them for comfirmation in order to know they were ok seemed slightly desperate. Do your own thing and just see if he follows. Be pleasant but don't put yourself out for him.
You need to let this frustration and anger go, ( no easy thing I know - I would want to punch him), if you are to give this a chance. Even if he was still seeing OW, it isn't about her, it's about how it makes him feel - he is using her if he is seeing her and she will end up paying the price.
In my gut I feel he is trying to make you make some sort of decision so that he can 'blame' you for the outcome. Don't resort to that. Let him make his own decisions and you make yours. Take the high road and don't resort to underhand comments - they may feel good at the time but later on one realises they were just silly and will come back and revisit you tenfold at some time in the future in the guise of 'You can't let go' or ' You will never forgive me so what's the point in trying?'. Don't let him force you in to a corner.
You need some space and you need some YOU time.
Kat you are helping, as always... And when I dressed up I dressed up because I wanted to look good because I loved the idea if going to see an amzing artist at a wonderful theater BUT I think I wouldnt be disapointed if my GF for example didnt tell me I looked good...
Saffie, fused? Well, that's something I am only facing with him. I guess Schnarch's words that the more we invest emotionally, the more we tend to lean to our partner is true...
I need some time without worrying how the day will turn out, without worrying about my kids who had a major meltdown tonight (not a coincidence I am afraid), worrying about my dad's tests tomorrow, work, etc etc...
How do I get on with my life when we are supposed to be a couple? Do I exclude him from my plans? Do I live as separated, how will good memories will be created to override the bad ones?
Example:next weekend is a 3 day weekend for us. If we were divorced, I would go to my uncle's house. If I do that now, the kids and me and him wont spend any time together. Do I act as a single mother? If I do he will consider that as "an act of war"... He of course is working Monday so that rules out the possibility of going away and plus, I dont want him near my extended family.
Anyway, I have managed to calm myself down since I last posted. I will have that massage this week, no matter what...
K
Kalni,
I don't think you should exclude him from your plans but rather make your plans and make sure he knows his presence is welcome and you hope he will be there.....but don't change them if he decides not to join in.
Plan some fun things for you and the kids at home this weekend so that your H can join in and be there, but don't rely/ expect him to join in. For example, teach you children massage - it's something I have done with mine. They were all massaged from babies and so then I taught them how to do simple things like hand and foor massages back to me and each other - great stress busters and fun when someone gets all tickly!!! You H might enjoy a massage.
Saffie,
he ALWAYS joins in. That's what he does acually, he is very into doing things with the kids when he is present. Whatever I suggest or they ask, he agrees happily...
Today my D was hysterical because I forbid my son to play with his DSi. He is addicted to it. She was crying and crying and then she said : "let me explain why I am soooo sad and stressed.
Daddy left us because you were fighting (the poor excuse he gave to the kids-not true btw), now you are fighting with my brother and he will go away too...".
I want to punch him for that. I told him the first time he used that excuse it wasnt proper. My D now thinks she has to avoid fights at any cost so the person she is interacting with, wont leave her
I called and told him that. I told him kids remember what they are told and it affects their lives. I told our D that wasnt true, that couples fight and dont break up, I gave her examples of my brothers' family, of my parents who have fought in front of her (little fights)and that when she is older we will talk about why me and her dad split up. He said "yes you are right, it was lousy what I told them back then".
K
Hey M, I didnt mean let it go entirely, I meant, you to try and work from an assumption he ISNT going back to her, rather than an assumption that he will... becasue, a. thats not healthy seeing as he insists he is done with her (which he DIDNT do that year you give as an example where he was lying to you but still seeing her) and b. it will drive you nuts otherwise??
I did suggest you CONFRONT him about the PC stuff, ask him if there is contact, if he says none, ask him politely to humour you and to set your mind at rest, prove it to you by logging in in front of you to his email.. that he can use his phone to do so if necessary if he is concerned about keyloggers and you respect he hasnt given you the password yet...
You said your pride gets in the way...you 'let him off the hook' and dont ask for things or have conversations you could have. For example, why sit silently fuming at lunch? Perhaps you could have said somehow how great the show was, just a shame he dint hold your hand...?
Those pesky expectations kill you. You expected him to compliment you, to react to the music and dinner.
When I was depressed, none of that would have affected me either. (Of course, I was depressed cuz my H left me for a younger woman, so the chances of us having a date night were less than a snowball's chance in hell).
Re the hand touching: did you touch his hand (you have stated numerous times he follows your lead)???
Regardless, he is depressed. His problem.
Focus on you my dear. You get too tied up in his stuff, you let him and your expectations drag you down.
As for OW, he was depressed with her. She was just an escape, and at first he put on a good show for her. But then he couldn't pretend, even with her, and she started to become unhappy with their R. She was not some magical cure my dear, she was a symptom of his problem that provided a temporary escape. That's all it was. Don't waste your time dwelling on it.
No, I didnt touch his hand, but I did other things... LOL (joking)
Today he stayed home to babysit while my dad and mom went for my dad's tests. Somehow, I started thinking what that meant to him. I realised he was probably trying to support me and show me...love. I got here, he left in a hurry and I called him and told him "thank you for doing that, I wasnt stressed out today because I knew you would take care of the kids, it was important to me."
Caught him by surprise, he said something I didnt get and I said "bye".
So, what is the most important thing/characteristic I value about myself or that I would want to be described as? What do I want my kids to think of when they think of me?
My answer: that I was loving, understanding and valued my life. That I am "safe" and caring.
That's my big goal. And I am not that with H. And it is irrelevant to what will happen with us. So there you have it, a goal, a big one. So what if he benefits from it as well? LOL
Did I hear that right? He took time off work to babysit?
That's awesome that he babysat today!! I think you interpreted that right, and I think your thank you call was great.
That is a big goal! We are all human, and we all have our slip ups, but I think you are a very passionate and loving and caring!
Goals are good, but how are doing on being in the present? Dunno, I'm just getting a gut feeling that you're having trouble just being in the now when you are with your H. When we get the past and the future out of the way, it's just two people meeting one another with fresh, true feelings and actions.
My kids had their Nintendo DS's this weekend. D7 plays in moderation, but S9 is addicted. I am using it as an incentive for him to get other "to do" items done and I put a limit on the video game play time. It is funny that when he is not allowed to play the DS, he will ask me "Dad, what can I do?".
D7 went into an academy award performance yesterday when I let her brother play the DS after dinner. She was wanting him to play with her instead. Oh well, you cant please them both.
I dont see how you have the energy to be thinking or worrying about the "love" of your H and also being a parent at the same time.
Kerry,
it's all I do. I work, come home, take care of the kids or just try to be "present" some time while catching up with myself the rest of the time, like now that they are asleep. I drive them to their lessons, to school, get homework done, play with them, some days I just come home and lay in bed and tell them:"mommy is tired today, let me rest"...
I am lucky I dont have to clean, the babysitter is also housekeeper in a sense and I can be free of chores of the house.
Kids wont let you drift away for too long. I can see it in their behavior they need me. And feeling I am their only safe harbour (and my family) is a great responsibility and motive.
The last couple of days, I have been reading again "how to talk to kids etc etc". Very helpful.
S8 lost the privilege of playing DSi because he didnt keep his side of the bargain regarding school. Consequences...
K
Hey K,
I didn't know you moved over here. All this time I thought you were taking a break from posting.LOL
Going to read back & get caught up with you.
Take Care,
Sunny
Kalni,
reading back... do I have this right? You still do not have his passwords?
What about setting up his email on your computer at home and calling him over and stating- "I want to log in your email right now- what is the password?"
In the words of Dr. Phil... People with nothing to hide, hide nothing (darn it- I think I am screwing up the saying- I can't remember the exact wording)
If he balks- I think you know your answer- he has something to hide... otherwise he would give it to your readily.
Personally, his coming and going at at all hours of the night is unacceptable to me also... where is the trust? Who knows what the heck he is doing
Yes, he seems definitely depressed- at this point- not your problem... Ever hear how sometimes a drowning person will take you right down with them if you are trying to save them? It's automatic, don't let him pull you down.
I personally, think he just strings you along with just enough to keep you going. Every time you finally have had it- another crumb is thrown your way ie.the letter. Then you think maybe this time is the time change is really going to occur. Very reactionary. He just reacts to situations.
I guess you could write up a list of all the needs he is meeting and not meeting. If the list is coming up short- do you think he will meet them in the near future? six months from now? a year from now?
His sadness- it's not all about him... what about your sadness? Why does his sadness trump yours? It's all about him- his moods, his happiness, his wants and needs (he does what he wants regardless of you)
I don't know.....will he ever really be a husband again? How can you be sure he is still not in contact with the OW when he was "reconciling" last year. groundhog's day (the movie) seems a little bit.
Has he done anything beyond the minimum? Anything without being cattle prodded?
What is your timeline? When is enough, enough?
You deserve some much more...
Of course, as always- just my thoughts. I wonder a single, private session with the MC would bring up? What does she think about all of this? What would she way to you?
Hey Sunny, I am here, yes! Waiting for your view on things...
June, funny you make a point about the passwords. Something I didnt mention yesterday was that although I did thank him for taking care of the kids, I also had sent him previously an email saying I need his passwords, that he had time to take care loose ends and I dont understand why he wouldnt give it to me.
I said I couldnt believe he didnt understand how that was important to me.
I found a reply this morning. That he had enough with this issue and that he cant believe his credibility is dependendt on the password. That he never asked about mine or tried to get them. And he ends it with his password. I should have figured it out, very easy password btw...
It is frustrating to see he doesnt "get it" but hey, what can I say, it isnt easy...
June, if I start with "what about MY needs" we are doomed. Unfortunately I am better equipped to make decisions that would benefit our relationship than he is. I often get into the mood you describe but to be honest, I dont like that mood.
Regarding his schedule: it is his work schedule, he makes sure I know wher ehe is, calls me from his office at various times of the day and has given me the direct line I didnt know existed (he says I did) so I can "check up" on him any hour of the day.
Timeline? End of Feb 2011. That is the end. A year from now. Dont ask me why, that's it. I'll be 40 on March 3rd 2011.
K
What! Are you accepting that answer for the this?! I would email back- considering your history of lying it is necessary. Her are my passwords for my emails now send my yours. I personally would have a MC session just over this.
I can not believe you would accept this!!
I will see what others have to say...
Kalni, best of luck on everything... I guess I am so baffled b/c I just read oyur post on Flowmom's post about finding a post-it stating "I love you" in his pocket years ago as he was walking out the door and him denying it was anything... It seems that he can not be honest - I worry including now.
Wait- just thinking- you stated he never logs in to his email accounts on the home computer now either, right? (worried about keylogger)
Oh brother....
So you have his password now. He is letting you know where he is, you can call and reach him at time.
I do get that you don't want to settle for crumbs, no one would and you shouldn't. I do know however that depression feels as if you are running on fumes constantly. It takes everything you have just to do what you "have" to do. Forget doing things for fun because that isn't even part of the thought process. You want the pain to end but really don't know how to get there. Believe me it is a dark hell and unless you have been there yourself it is hard to understand.
Pushing doesn't make you want to get anywhere and in fact you use that tad bit of energy to rebel. Sure everyone has mild cases of the blues but this is so much worse.
I would just say he would like your support but you can't do it for him. He has to see for himself that there is a way out of this dark place he's in.
Keep focusing on things you enjoy, tell him that you do appreciate the small things he does and encourage gently counseling.
hugs, kat
Wait, I am confused...somehow you did get his password covertly? He did not volunteer it up though, right
***Oh my gosh, just re-read your post Kalni
Sorry I see that he does give you his password.****
OK, a world of difference.
Sorry about that- I blame my morning "fog", getting kids ready for bus, blah-blah-blah...
LOL, june, dont worry about it. Long story short, yesterday morning I asked for his password and copies of his call records. He replied he has nothing to hide and why dont I get it and then at the end, had written the password.
He just called, going home early, like now (15:00) because of a strike...
K
That is totally awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, my heart is melting towards him....
I think he is sincere with his love for you
Hey, no need to be sarcastic... Seriously. I am not dumb, dont worry.
A strike? Good heavens! how does anything in Europe ever get accomplished? It seems like one country or another is constantly having a strike.
That does it, I'm moving!
Sorry, couldn't resist a little levity this morning with my coffee.
Seriously K, you have the (banned p word) of a saint. I would have had his a$$ served by now. I understand he is depressed, he sounds like a completely lost soul and needs help and support but he is sucking the life out of you because he refuses to see that he needs serious help for himself. He feeds off of your energy and lives in orbit around you. If you were not in the picture at all he would have hit the bottom and who knows where that might have led. It's really hard to read how horribly his actions (or lack of action) is effecting your stability.
Maria, you know how much I love and care about you. I would love to see your H come out of this depression and work his way back to being a truly loving man, but without IC and, IMO, meds, he is going to remain in this deep hole. It depletes your energy and is difficult on your children. Do they ever express themselves to him? In front of him? Does he have a clue how badly they are hurting because of his inability to be a loving man to you? Children feel the love between their parents and that gives them security. Without being secure in their parents love and support to each other, they can not be secure in their own lives. Just being present in their lives is not showing them love or support, he may as well be a paid sitter.
Has he shown any further interest at all in seeing the IC?
I have nothing but respect for you Maria. You are in an unenviable situation that is slowly killing your spirit. Feed your soul Maria. Make your jewelry, paint, take your kids to your uncle's for the long weekend and let get some space and perspective.
Love you girl!!!!!
And as for the lack of affection last night...Well, maybe he is depressed or something, who knows...
At a loss to be honest. Sorry mate xxx
I'm not at a loss.....
A nice romantic concert followed by Italian food and wine and then the couch and your wife goes to bed alone? ..... I am shaking my head in disbelief.
I'm not.....
FIB
Sorry, actually I wasn't being sarcastic at all.
I was knocked off my butt seeing he is trying. I am changing my thinking about him. Maybe he is not the bad guy I thought he was.
Sorry it came off that way,,, I was rushing out the door.
I don't know, I certainly am not the best advice giver. Just my opinions....
C'mon guys, this thread is for Maria and as far as I can tell..she is choosing to work on this M! This is a divorceBUSTING forum, not a hey-you-should-dump-your-lousy-H forum. So, we respect that choice, right?
Hey M... saw the pic.. ok.. that’s it, no more feeling bad about yourself… she looks like A MAN !!!
Seriously. Like a transexua*l, I am NOT KIDDING (jeez, what does THAT say about H!!??!!
)
She is NOT PRETTY !!!! Ok, well visual assasination over, I have met you and seen more than one pic of her and you two DO NOT compare. She looks cheap, absolutely, I totally agree. So thats what it was and you know it, deep down. Men always dumb down for affairs, right? You look... classy. Etheral.
I am SOOOOO glad he gave you the password, I dont care if he did it a little grudgingly!! So... did you check through all his folders and messages and... nothing huh?
OK.. so, as a "control experiment" to prove I am not biaised, I showed the pic to bf and simply asked him what he thought? HAAHAHAHA, sorry, but he said this.....
"Dear lord! Maybe it’s a bad pic but she looks like a man in drag!"
(Hey I dont know why I am laughing, when I showed pics of Helen to my BFF and Mum they both said straight away.. My god... she looks like your SISTER!!!..URGHH!)
He really is trying so look at that. I know that in my sitch with the long time OW, my H has never given me his passwords and right now if I even get on our joint cell account, he would flip. Your H is really trying and although he is draining because of the depression, he is trying to meet the needs you have when he can. What you need to do is take some time for you so you can rejuvenate. Keep inviting him and encouraging him to get some help for himself, but at least he is being transparent to help you. It may not be romantically loving, but the transparency can at least reassure you.
Enjoy the long weekend, and if H will, have him come along. Have some fun together, if he is able to go.
About the above post, it seems to me that OW are always uglier than the W. I know in my case, my H's OW is short and fat. I am not gorgeous, but I take care of myself better than she does. It is always reassuring to see that the OW is UGLY!
C'mon guys, this thread is for Maria and as far as I can tell..she is choosing to work on this M! This is a divorceBUSTING forum, not a hey-you-should-dump-your-lousy-H forum. So, we respect that choice, right?
It IS for divorcebusting. It is ALSO a place for friends to help friends...to avoid fostering denial when it exists....to help someone recognize unhealthy situations....to point out issues with codependency...and to support others here when they DO choose to end a relationship OR recognize when someone is married to a toxic spouse.
I am NOT here to tell Maria to file or separate or dumpe a 'lousy H'. I also won't blow smoke up her @$$.
Hang tough Maria. I support your choices.
Sagapo.
FIB
ROTFLMAO! WOW! A man in drag? That's rough.
Funny Ali that your family thought Helen looked like she could be your sister. The broom looks shockingly like me and when Gabe was still in the secret A mode one of our mutual friends saw him with her at a restaurant and approached the table thinking he was with me when they saw her from the back. When they got to the table they realized they had made a mistake but thought nothing of it since they were both in uniform and it was obvious that they worked together. The ashen, freaked out look on his face made no sense to her until she later found out about everything.
Gees! Interesting.
Well, she looks.. ok, she is tall, blonde, got big b**bs etc etc, but yes, something of the drag act about her!...But nothing like you M. Nothing. Friends told me Helen didnt look like me either, but sort of like me, just not as pretty and not as petite but just.. they said you can tell he has a 'type'. Not so here.
Mish, thats funny!! Ok, well, not funny actually huh.
Timeline? End of Feb 2011. That is the end. A year from now. Dont ask me why, that's it. I'll be 40 on March 3rd 2011.
This is great to have a time line. That will be over 3 years since you came on this board. Maybe you should share the requirements and objective with him. The drawback is he may then decide that he can slack off until that time. Maybe you should come up with some incremental milestones.
I can smell BS from across the ocean. There is something wrong or fishy going on with this guy if he cant complement or find attraction towards you. For someone that has done what he has done, he sure is not doing much to rebuild his marriage. He does throw you the occasional crumb which
keeps you hanging on. And arguing in front of the kids is setting a bad example that they may follow themselves.
Has he suggested any family vacations for summer?
What has he done on his own to show you his love and commitment?
Does he talk much of your future together?
Excellent post Kerry. FIB
A little joke which makes me think of a conversation between Maria and John...
A Greek and Italian were arguing over who had the superior culture.
The Greek says, "We have the Parthenon."
Arching his eyebrows, the Italian replies, "We have the Coliseum."
The Greek retorts, "We Greeks gave birth to advanced mathematics"
The Italian, nodding agreement, says, "But we built the Roman Empire."
And so on and so on until the Greek comes up with what he thinks will end the discussion. With a flourish of finality he says, "We invented sex!"
The Italian replies, "That is true, but it was the Italians who introduced it to women."
That is awesome Kerry!!! LOLOLOL
On a more serious note (I am still smiling by the way):
<< It is always reassuring to see that the OW is UGLY!>>
What is this fixation with how the OW looks? Most be a woman thing because i just don't get it. So K's H spent 3 years of his life with a woMAN.....if she looked like Penelope Cruz would it make a difference? If so, how? Please explain.....
John, you'll never get it!!
Kerry I knew the joke, still VERY funny.
Ok, maybe I am venting too much here cause there are somethings I dont report much about.
Right now, he has NO Problem talking about the future. I am the one that stops him (when I stopped supporting him about the car he wanted to change, he dropped the idea) agreed to get a dog etc etc. I am hesitant.
His LL is AOS and he does that for me. He washes the dishes, cooks, studies with kids on the weekens and lets me sleep, my coffe is ready when I get up, suggests we go out (I have denied a couple of times), wants me to spend time with his dad and sister (I am still not very fond of that), agreed to change the kitchen cabinets if I want to (he pays), buys anything I ask or say I want for the hosue, the kids etc, calls when I am gone and asks if I want something from the supermarket, asks about my dad, has lunches with my familt even when I am gone, suggested I leave town if I need time to feel better, to decompress, when he wants to buy somethig fro himself waits until the weekend so we can do it together etc etc.
It's all the things he wants me to do. AOS
That is awesome Kerry!!! LOLOLOL
On a more serious note (I am still smiling by the way):
<< It is always reassuring to see that the OW is UGLY!>>
What is this fixation with how the OW looks? Most be a woman thing because i just don't get it. So K's H spent 3 years of his life with a woMAN.....if she looked like Penelope Cruz would it make a difference? If so, how? Please explain.....
It IS a chick thing. Beyond that, I can't explain it. When I first saw a picture of the OW in my sitch, the very first thing I thought was, "Why does she have to be so f*cking pretty?" (no they don't always "affair down"--she's younger, prettier, far more wealthy--altho she'll always be morally bankrupt!)
The obsession with what the OW looks like--it's just like not being able to fathom how someone could be so depressed that he (or she) could lose his interest in sex--you either get it at an emotional/gut level, or else no amount of explaining could ever make you understand.
In my H's case, his OW looked incredibly like a female version of himself. I believe Jung talks about how the MLCer is coming to terms with his "anima," or female side, but ... my H looks great as a guy, but the whole she-looks-like-his-sister bit weirded me out somewhat.
hoosier,
no matter what Ali (and John say, although John she is f@ckable), in my case also the OW is/was VERY impressing...
It is so amazing to me that people get so worked up over each others comments. No one is going to agree all of the time except on this...we are all trying to help in our own way.
You have a good head on your shoulders and he does lots of loving things for you. I see positives.
We all just love you and want you to be happy.
kat
Oh and I think I have the analogy that will get you men out there to understand our obsession about looks...How good was the OM in bed? Better than ME????
We sit there and beat ourselves up...If I were prettier, thinner, curvier, bigger busted, wouldn't he still be with me and never strayed? Was it my hair color even?? (yeah, I went there, was a bit blond for a while because she was and I tell you it didn't do a thing for me. lol)
Hope that helps.
kat
Yes I agree, like in the pic of her in the low cut top with her 'Lisa Onedays' poking through, except those werent shop bought! Impressive, but not in a take-you-home-to-mother-share-your-life-with kinda way. Good analogy Kat!
Wow, so your H has been kind of .. acting like a H? Doing dishes, chores, being the man, providing, going shopping with you for stuff he needs (bf does that too!) What are your reasons for saying no sometimes?
In the early months of my reconciliation, bf suggested all kinds of things and I often smiled sweetly and said "sure!" even if I wasnt entirely. But I wanted it to work and I wanted him to feel he had more 'voice' you know? Because I was the one kind of calling the shots before he left. Just something to muse over. xxx
<<How good was the OM in bed? Better than ME????>>
Hmm...nice try....but I don't give a sh!t about that either...:-)
And Maria, I vehemently deny saying she was F@ckable...I can't pronounce that second letter!
Then I think that makes you exceptional!!
kat
It's all the things he wants me to do. AOS
Could you take pleasure in doing AOS for him? I used to be really negative about doing AOS for H, but I gradually adopted the POV that doing little things for him "blesses" him. I don't actually think that H's LL is AOS so that effort was probably misplaced, but I did find that I could learn to do AOS in a truly giving spirit.
Awesome on the passwords!
He definitely has come a long way on the transparency.
Now if we could just get him to understand YOUR LL.
I'm still bad about that sometimes. Love to be touched, so always touching a shoulder or back. Pretty huggy with my friends too. All of which is fine, but I have to remember how much RB appreciates it when I do little things like help him with the dishes and such.
I have been reading along and I do think that there have been steps taken...which is a good thing of course!
I don't necessarily like them. For example his complaining about giving you the passwords and then giving them to you. Kind of like a child pouting but then doing what you want...
I will keep thinking good thoughts for you, and reading to see what happens next! Glad you have a timeline in place, helps you stay grounded I think. Although I also agree with what others have said about staying in the moment and not judging everything against a list...
OK I will stop now that I am contradicting myself!
From the brilliant Micheal Lutin..
DAILY FIX - Wednesday 10 Feb
You just have to ask yourself
is your WILL strong enough to heal these wounds
and repair damage
or is it merely a puff of cosmetic powder
and a dose of much needed anaesthetic
This is the stuff great art is made of....
being able to create out of pain and
to throw light on a festering sore
and let the light kill the cooties
Or is this a lingering problem
that only seems as if it is being solved
In astrology light is WILL
light is the DESIRE TO LIVE AND BRING LIFE
so...
it's your WILL that's involved
and nobody can know how strong that is
but you
xxx
Morning Al, thanks...
Yesterday it was a quiet-pleasing day together after a long long time. Especially for me. Because I managed to stop all sorts of thoughts from ruining my mood and didnt talk R but most importantly didnt WANT to talk about our R which was what made the difference. Usually we dont talk about our M but I am constantly thinking of what I would want to tell him...
I came home and found him there. He fixed the sink although he cant do handyman jobs around the house and I made sure I expressed many times how pleased I was my cabinet wasnt "moist" anymore, he had done the stduying with the kids, took and picked up my son from his English lessons, fed them, etc etc.
I cooked an apple cake with my D and niece (which turned out great!), his father came for a visit and he asked me to give his dad some of it to take it home with him, he gave my son a bath and we all spent a few minutes in my D's bed before they fell asleep. My kids were so excited and happy.
I gave him a lil kiss on the lips and he was warm and accepting but probably a bit shocked. Late at night after I went to bed I came back up in the living room to ask him something about a voice recording machine I want and I saw him panicking that I would be coming for a "a talk". I asked him what I wanted, went back to bed with a smile and snuggled with him this morning.
It wasnt very difficult to keep ME positive thru the day. You have to understand that the last memories of almost 8-9 months of us being in the house are of walking on eggshels and before that only of sicknesses and deaths. We need a new routine.
I could tell he felt good about himself last night. Like he was there, did what a father does, and was accepted like a father is.
And I felt good because I wasnt the source of his stress yesterday.
flo, I do enjoy AOS. I always did little and big things for him. Sometimes, too many to the point he considered my taking on his responsibilities as acts of love and when I didnt, indifference.
I am careful not to do that, not to manipulate or control him but offer little gestures that can only be explained as acts of love.
I need to stay positive and control my resentment. I want to be a loving and understanding person. My kids respond so well to me when I keep that in mind. My mom does too. My two indicators of "good behaviour"...
H needs time to accpet this is who I am. I am not who he is AFRAID I am...
K
PS BTW, he never mentioned anything about the password, I didnt either. And no, I didnt find enything except he has kept 3 emails of hers regarding work from last June. She had forwarded some links about football and has kept those links. Didnt bother me at all.
From M. Aslan...
There are times when life simply gets out of control. It is in those moments when we realize we are not ultimately in charge of our destiny, that someone knows best and that the smart thing to do is to let go and pray like heck. Sometimes things must get worse before they can get better. Something has come to a head. Jupiter in your sign says that something must be removed to make room for the result you want. Create the inner space for a prayer to be answered and the chances are high that it will. A New Moon in Aquarius in your house of the unseen suggests there is someone waiting for your call. Once they receive it, they will happily deliver the goods.
You do have an active role now in getting what you need and want. Work with the gods and they will show you where you can get more.
I need to stay positive and control my resentment. I want to be a loving and understanding person. My kids respond so well to me when I keep that in mind. My mom does too. My two indicators of "good behaviour"...
H needs time to accpet this is who I am. I am not who he is AFRAID I am...
K
Maria, print this off and stick it where you will read it every day! Controlling one's resentment can be so hard to do but doing so can reap great rewards.
I can see many good things in your situation and it just seems a question of getting the scales to balance down so that the good things weigh more than the bad and so then you can start to be on an upwards spiral. That in turn will help your H get his mojo back gradually.
Kalni, that sounds like a really positive day!
I've struggled with resentment as well. I had a lot of role modeling of that from my mother, and honestly I think I learned it as a habit from her. In recent years I've actually realized that many wives/mothers don't regularly feel resentful. It sounds stupid, but I guess I just didn't see the alternatives very clearly.
Take care and I hope that these more peaceful relaxed times become more frequent. From reading it sounds like you have the capacity to set a positive tone with your H, and that that works.
That sounds like a very nice day!
So glad you surprised him with a kiss and no R talk! It'll be interesting to see if that helps him to relax and be more "there" for you and the family.
I totally get being who you are and not who H is afraid you will be. I have the same issue now. I tend to get frustrated that H doesn't see "the real me" but we cannot control other's perceptions. We have to stop the eggshell walking, trying to "show" H that we aren't who they fear we are. Those are THEIR fears.
I think with time and persistence, they will begin to trust who we truly are. They can't see it now because they are in fear mode. They are also having a hard time looking at themselves and thus projeting onto us. Just take a step back and remember he is just going to fear what he's going to fear right now and all you can do is keep validating yourself. Remeber PM's self validation and self soothing. Being positive is wonderful. It feeds you. You are not letting him affect you then. You are detaching and enjoying your life and not walking on eggshells. It's a tricky tightrope to walk, but we can do it! Great job!
He surprised me and came home a few minutes ago, at 10:30!! *shakes head with disbelief*
We talked around 5 and I was just thinking he hasnt kept in touch...
K
I'm assuming that's early for him?
Wow, I am so pleased to see things turning in a positive direction.. or maybe its you thats 'turned' this time!?
Great that you just kissed him and let the moment be, better still that you didnt feel consumed with thoughts of your R/S or things you wanted to ask him. I am sure those moments will get more often and further apart... I am SO happy he is starting to move a little now...giving you the password, coming home early (!WOW!)and being more present in the home (so a H isnt just for Christmas, huh!?
). Did you ever have the convo about him staying permanently, or ..he just is?
Hugs to you and ...well done. Where you find yourself with your once stbxh is an extrodinary thing.
Hello, my friend! I'm sorry I've been away, but I've been in my own little rut and thus not done well at digging out of it until now.
Anyway, I'm glad to see there is so much progress in your sitch, especially from your prospective. Your C sounds like she's a good one who wil continue to work for you both.
Will try to keep more on top of things...but you know me, right???
RTL
Morning...
Yes, Michelle, it is VERY early!! He usually comes in around 1:30 in the morning.
Ali, things are positive because I am positive. So my descriptions are positive. I just dont know how much I will last.
I asked him how come he came home early, he said they finally decided to do this schedule where one of the chief editors leaves early every day when no matches are on. It would have been better if I knew it ahead of time or if it is generally planned but hey, I wont complain, that can/could change.
When he came home the kids heard him and got up and he read them a story...
Then we watched Australia and then I went to bed. I told him the C called to see how wer were doing but he kind of dismissed the issue. I am asking him today if he wants to go again or not. We'll see
K
Hey Rob!! Hope you are doing better or well...
So H agreed gladly to continue with MC. He said he didnt even consider stopping, how did I come up with that idea? Asked me to go ahead and book an apt with her.
I have booked one for Wed cause he is leaving on Thursday I think on a trip for a week. I have to check and see if we will actually be able to have one.
I am not sure she is a good fit though. I think we need a C that is far more experienced with marital counceling. She would be good for H for IC, she is soft spoken but persistent and he looks comfortable with her.
For now, I am happy if we can make progress any way possible.
K
This is really awesome! H is coming home early, being transparent, calling to check in, and now saying he definitely wants to continue MC. He may not be affectionate yet, but he is definitely showing love by being there. I think it helped him a lot to have you be affectionate and not talk about R. I think it helped him to put his guard down a little. Still a lot to work through, but definitely a positive upswing.
K,
So H agreed gladly to continue with MC. He said he didnt even consider stopping, how did I come up with that idea?
See what happens with mind-reading?
I am not sure she is a good fit though. I think we need a C that is far more experienced with marital counceling.
Um... considering what others have said, she sounds pretty good. She's not only putting him on the spot, but you too.
I know you're miles ahead of her in some areas. K you have to admit you're beyond laying the foundations in your mindset while your H is still looking for the plot i.e. common ground to build ( and yes pun intended)
For now, I am happy if we can make progress any way possible.
And THAT my dear friend is the goal you're striving for... PROGRESS ... not regress or stagnation.
((( Maria ))))
Well, that's all very positive! Maybe getting home early once in a while (and coming straight over to see you!), wanting to consider MC. He definitely wants to be there even if the affection isn't overtly there yet!
Well, if she is good for H, that seems to be very important. You have a whole other support network in us, not to mention a great advantage because your English is so proficient and you have access to so many resources he does not. He is the one who is behind you in beginning to deal with his issues.
From what I've read though, she sounds like she is challenging both of you. What do you think would make her better? Do you really think another would do better, or are you just hoping that you would make faster progress with another C?
I say if she calls him on his 'stuff' and is leading him to facing his 'issues', then she is a good fit. Maybe not for MC per se, but my old MC told us that Dan had so much of his own crap to deal with first that needed handled before we did a lot of couple's stuff anyway. So it sounds like you are actually getting a combo of IC/MC which is great!
Glad to see such positive steps every time I check in on you!!
Oh and Nathan and I watched a documentary on the "Real" Olympics the other night. He thought it was cool that the Greeks competed naked (God made us that way so why not? He said...) When you look at the initial spirit of the competition, I have to wonder what the original Greek Olympians would think of categories like Ice Dancing
That's so great Maria!!
Oh and Nathan and I watched a documentary on the "Real" Olympics the other night. He thought it was cool that the Greeks competed naked (God made us that way so why not? He said...) When you look at the initial spirit of the competition, I have to wonder what the original Greek Olympians would think of categories like Ice Dancing
Ice Dancing naked would be awesome! But there might be some shrinkage going on because of the coldness.
...true on the shrinkage, but you'd also have some headlights a blarin'!!!
A naked olympics could give new meaning to the pole vault event.
I will pass on watching naked greco-roman wrestling between the guys. Now if they had women's mud wrestling...
I sure wouldn't want to be a male competitor on the Pummel Horse.... ohh those tanglers might get caught! YEOW! I can not stop laughing at the image!
Ha I visited Olympia in mainland Greece once and it was amazing! But Maria thought it was hilarious that I thought it so great to stand there at the top of the original 100 metre 'dash' (not quite 100m I think though)..and imagine them all there, running, naked! I'm not surprised though..its flamin boiling hot in Greece!! If the Olympics had been invented in Britain, they'd have been running in knitted all in one longjohns
Hey M, things feel like they have turned around and seem more positive? That doesnt suprise me about him being happy to continue MC, but you to make the appointment. I didnt think he was reluctant to go, so..watch those assumptions huh! He just needs help with this stuff, but you said after his letter you wanted to help him if you could. So this is great you booked an appointment. Yay,still rooting for this M.
xxx
Well you decsribed it very vividly Al, that's why I was laughing...
Glad to hear that MC is still on the table. Not only could it continue to be helpful, but IMO it's a symbol of serious intention to work on the M.
Soooo, my dad's scan showed a new growth. Apparently the previous issues, show as if they are "OK" now but the growth we saw is new and at the area of the surgery. So docs dont call it a metastasis, but it seems to be blocking something vital which makes him feel so bad lately. We'll know details in the afternoon.
This morning I went in the house and found him (my dad) in a position that showed pain and despair. He was alone in the house so obviously he was "letting go"... Felt embarassed to interrupt but tried to be positive.
The worst of all is my brother seems to be loosing it. He is in so much pain I cant believe that. He is so much like my dad: bear looks and teddy bear heart. My SiL is reliving her dad'd death, my mom is lost. I am...soothing myself and trying to look at this as something far more a spiritual than a painful journey.
I am worried about my brother most.
Other than that, well... there is nothing else deserving my attention than my family
K
I am so sorry to hear about your dad! You definitely have the right perspective. Right now you need to be with your family and take time together. It seems that H has been understanding through this part so I believe that as needed if you let him know what you need, he will step up. I just caution you to take some time for you. I understand the concern for everyone in the family, but make sure you have someone to go to as well. Someone to help you.
I went through a similar situation last year when my grandpa committed suicide. It was right at the beginning of OW and H spent most of his time with her; talking, texting, even seeing her. Instead of taking time for me, I took care of S, my family, and was preoccupied with H and OW so I never really grieved. It has taken a toll on me.
You however have your priorities straight, but just take some time to make sure you get supported as well. I am so sorry and my prayers are with you.
I will keep your family in my thoughts and prayers. It is never easy when a close family member is sick. Don't lock up ypur feeling while you help your family. I think expressing them, perhaps to H will keep you strong during this difficult time.
hugs and blessings, kat
Oh Kalni, I wish you and your family strength and peace right now.
Thinking of you my friend.
"there is nothing else deserving my attention than my family"
Isn't that the truth.
It looks like they're counting on the strength & resilience
you're known for.
You have the right attitude K.
XO
Sunny
Kalni,
I'm sorry to disrupt the flow here, but I keep up with your thread because you and everyone here are so insightful and generous in your sharing. I was moved by your post last week about the book "Passionate Marriage" to pick up my copy and continue reading. It's dense with information and on my first attempt I only made it about 25% through.
I wanted to let you and others here know that David Schnarch and his team have developed a cool interactive website for "people who want an emotionally healthy life". It has an interactive forum, much like this DB forum, and a place to post personals if you want to meet people for friendship or romance. It just opened a week ago. One of the coolest aspects of this website is that David Schnarch himself has posted on the forum. I don't know, but it's possible he may interact with posters since this is such a new venture for his group. The web address is: crucible4points.com.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
GAG
Sorry to hear about your dad, Sunshine.
RTL
more prayers for you & your family sister K.
Ted
(((Kalni)))
Praying for you and your family too.
Hey K, I am so sorry to hear that, about your sweet Dad. Are they giving him any more treatment? And yes your brother too.. a cuddly bear (not overweight!) but yes, a bear. We had such a lovely evening chatting to him although we had only just met. He seemed very warm and very interested in other people and their perspective on life...Thinking of you and your family, I am glad you have H living with you again to be there for you this time and hopefully help you through this.
xxx
(((((((((((((Kalni))))))))))))
I'm so sorry to hear that your dad is having so much pain and misery. I pray the doctors find a good solution to the blockage quickly. Are they able to give him any better pain management?
You are a beacon of strength and love K. Your brother will be looking to you for comfort. Never doubt that you have the strength in you to share it with him. You're totally amazing!
sorry to hear about your dad K.
MATS
Thanks guys, those who unfortunately had to deal with cancer, know these tests and wating for the results every 3-6 months and the outcome and the hopes and the miracle that rarely comes, is a process that burdens your heart 24 hours a day, non stop...
It is a long weekend here, we fly kites and eat shrimps, octapuss shells, etc etc
Things with H are... so and so. We have again hit a low. We talked last night and the result is the same as always. He wants me to trust him and he feels like a failure. He said I "make him feel like a mistake, he is a mistake in this house". Of course that means that I am failing to be the good wife I am trying to be.
No Vday gifts from him. I gave him the 5 LL book cause I believe it would help us immensely to be on the same page with that. I dont know if he will take the time to read it.
He again said "how can I be making love to you when we are like THIS?". Hmmm, he is right in a way but on the other hand if we did make love, make we wouldnt be like THIS. It's the egg and the chicken once again...
Dont know what to do. Dont know how to get through to him. I guess I can stop trying.
My kids are happy and life goes on.
I wrote a letter to my brother telling him he shouldnt feel responsible for everything concerning my dad's treatement etc, I am in it with him as well. I wrote him I want him to take care of himself an his family and we'll do our best reagrding our dad, I told him I love him very much...
K
Hi K,
Good idea regarding the letter to your brother. He has had to watch your dad and his healthas well as his sister struggle in her marraige in the last couple of years. That also is difficult. Not as difficult as living it but.....
Excellent purchase for your H (LL) and hopefully for you as well. the gift that keeps on giving...can't remember what product that slogan is associated with.
Finally, you told me something yesterday and I hope you are wrong...I really hope he is (or will be) into you and he is just in a funk right now. Wow, I am starting to sound like the ladies....meanwhile I am sure that most of teh men have already expressed their concern regarding his "inactivity". Time will tell. In the meantime, I know you are concerned about your dad and your mom, your brother, your kids and your husband. Try to take some time for you to just try to find some positives around you. Looking on the bright side when things are not all rosy can be difficult...but essential. Stay strong for those around you if not for yourself.
I still don't get how every one seems to think someone who is depressed would want to have sex. It isn't a priority. He needs to start feeling the positives himself and then things might start to warm up in that department.
Still thinking of your Dad and your family.
kat
I agree with Kat. There is at least one sleeping position which NEVER fails to "put H in the mood," but while he was going through his most depressed phase ... nothing. There literally wasn't enough seratonin in his brain to transmit any impulses. I think this is very difficult for a person who has never experienced moderate to severe depression to understand, however.
Kalni, my deepest sympathies for what your family is going through with your Dad's condition right now.
To top it all, I had to accompany my mom with an ambulance to the ER today, she had blood coming out from her mouth and nose and a terrible headache on the left side of her head.
After 4 hours and 2 hospitals (I took her out of the public to a private one) I had to sign her out from both because docs said she needed an MRI ASAP and she refused. From the last one she left me, H and an aunt of mine there and she left, took a taxi home, we were looking for her with the car in dark streets
GRRRRRR...
H was waiting for the ambulance at the hospital and was realy sweet. And i thanked him and he looked as if he felt so NOT a mistake...
K
Mom MAY survive from my hands...
Depression is the ultimate killer of the sex drive, IME.
He again said "how can I be making love to you when we are like THIS?". Hmmm, he is right in a way but on the other hand if we did make love, make we wouldnt be like THIS. It's the egg and the chicken once again...
Could you do something like offer him a friendly massage and hint that you'd love it to be reciprocated? That would be a loving, non-verbal gesture to connect on the physical level without it being sexual. You can't fail at receiving a massage. But talking...that's a cheeseless tunnel for you guys.
OMG K!!! That is a terrifying situation with your mom. Did you get her back to a hospital?
holy cow! Is your mom claustrophobic? I hope the bleeding has stopped.
Kalni, I'm so sorry, I missed your post about your mom. How scary! I wish you and your family good health.
Mom woke up today (!!), Thank GOD, but her face now is swollen. Which is something the doc said was to be expected.
I lived a day in paranoia yesterday. I was so mad at her for walking out on us leaving me there standing with the docs, trying to figure out what to do. She didnt want to leave my dad alone and said "others" cant be deciding for her. Others meant me but I didnt make a decision, the docs did.
Anyway, I hope she does have the MRI today so that we can be sure of what is going on.
H said he will read the 5 LL book. He was really nice yesterday. Just as a husband/life partner should be. Supportive, caring, handling the details. It felt good to finally to be able to lean on someone, even if it was for a while. I was touched that he waited for us at the hospital when we arrived with the ambulance. He left his job right in its peak hours.
I will post more about me, later. I have a busy day today at work, my son stayed home cause he is sick and I feel like maybe I am sick as well.
K
Gosh K, I hope it is nothing serious with your Mum, perhaps something bought on by stress? Good luck with your Mum today.
I have to agree with the others, bf is MUCH improved on these AD's but he still struggles with having the drive to ML, its more a mental thing than a physical thing. Before this AD he could barely do it at all, his desire just wasnt there, but he said it defo wasnt me and he was very much attracted to me, but yes, the brain chemistry was not firing I guess!
Anyway, what a shame you had a busy day at work and couldnt call in sick or something after what happened with your Mum. I like the way you describe H being like a proper H, thats wonderful that after everything, you two are pulling together in times like this as a proper couple once again.
xxx
Hello Specialest of K's..
*hugs*
I cannot imagine what you went through with your mom disappearing like that! Her overriding concern for your father became greater than her own well-being. I'm glad to hear you found her and that she might be in a better frame of mind today.
And remember.. you are part of her gene pool. The way she handles things was your role model in how to address issues.
I'm sending thoughts and prayers for your dad and family. Waiting is so difficult, as is worrying. And yet, you still have him, even with his illness. Being able to savor his presence is a beautiful thing in the midst of worry and chaos.
Your spouse was able to be your husband in the hospital. A source of support, someone you turned to, let your guard down and relied on. You were a priority over everything else. Actions.
You're a beautiful woman.
*hugs*
Sorry to hear about your mom. Stress is horrible on the body as many on this site know. It is awesome that H was there for you. It is also good that you allowed him to be there for you and relied on him. It will continue to help him as he works back to you. It is great that you two could come together in a time of need.
Thinking good thoughts for you mom and your dad today...how stubborn our parents can be! Guess that is why we are stubborn, too?
And how nice that your husband could be there for you when you needed him. Actions like that help you feel loved and I am sure they help him feel useful instead of a 'mistake'...
Rooting for you...
That was scary to hear about your Mom. I hope that she is allowing them to help her. I have heard numerous stories of people wanting to get to their spouse because they need them. She apparently feels his need is greater than hers.
Good for you for letting your H be there for you. The more he feels that he is "good" for you, the more loving he will feel. I would say stop the R talks for now unless you are with your C. Focus on the good of each day and don't rush.
thinking of you. kat
I am so sorry to hear of your mother's problems. In a way, it is very romantic in that she cares so much for her husband that it affects her own health.
Hopefully she can be convincee to get the MRI.
It is great that you have your H by your side through this.
We are all pulling for you.
And remember.. you are part of her gene pool. The way she handles things was your role model in how to address issues.
THAT is scary!!!! I was thinking about it the whole time we were driving around looking for her. I almost told H "shoot me if I behave like this to our kids when we are old"...
Thanks guys, she went to one doc today and will schedule the MRI. It should be done ASAP, but I cant make her do anything.
Kerry, it is very touching to see how they both feel so connected and depend on each other. They are married 45 years. They feel their time together is limited. THAT is the kind of committement, dedication and love people should aim for.
K
Wow! So scary about the stuff with your parents' health. Thinking of them and you.
SO awesome that H left work to go to the hospital! So glad you thanked him. That's such a great step for him. Also glad he said he'd read 5LL.
Some really good stuff in there despite the stresses and upheavals.
I was thinking that most of my "friends" are over at Surviving now. It sucks and I wish this wasnt the case but reading some updates, makes me wonder if the Chinese warning to watch what we are wishing for is more serious than it sounds...
well there is a saying in Italian or french (I can't remember)that i will try to translate and then paraphrase.... "better alone than badly accompanied"....don't know why that comes to mind but it is not a reference to your husband.
I hope that you'll soon have reassuring info about your mother's health.
Your spouse was able to be your husband in the hospital. A source of support, someone you turned to, let your guard down and relied on. You were a priority over everything else. Actions.
Yes. It's in times like that that everyone remembers what's really important.
K, Never a dull moment in K-land!? So when are you going to decide (demand) that H moves back in? Haven't you beaten him into perfection yet?
How are things with your parents? I hope the excitement has settled down and now they can both be taken care of. Just what you needed more chaos!
Thinking of you and know you will get through this.
kat
Pisces this week...
In order for evolution to occur, involution must precede it. This means an end to something or a dying off must happen before new growth can emerge. The human cup can only handle so much water until it just starts spilling over in waste. Your cup may be quite full right now, but perhaps not full of the stuff you want. If you add any more to it, you will find your efforts will become dispersed and futile. Make a conscious effort now as expansive Jupiter moves through your sign with harmony seeking Venus to do some inner and outer house cleaning so you can free up ample space for this awesome influence.
Rare, energetic support is here FOR YOU to positively change your life.
Do they have a horoscope for a country? From what I have been reading, the economic situation in Greece and its relationship with the EU is not very optimistic. I have a feeling that marxist leaning Papandreou is more than willing to hop in bed with the Russians.
So, maybe H's apt needs to die off!
And then maybe he'll grow.
Kerry, I wouldnt mind trying the Russians, not that I trust them but last time we went to bed with the Americans, we were "given" a cruel-mean dictatorship...
Funny, we here call Papandreou a Yankie cause he has studied in US and has the style...
Greece has less debt than Italy and better deficit (you call it?)than Spain. We pay 4% of our country's money for arms because nobody will get their f@cking heads out of their @sses and make Turkey back off from our islands/borders which they desperately desire although we are the borders of EU or even Cyprus which is torn in half after 1974 invasion. So, as some brilliant German, French and other poticians say, EU should help out of they think we will drag them down or shut up and mind their own business...
With that, I will stop. I am a very peaceful person and hate any kind of "wise guys trying to put sense in other countries people" while they cant get their sh!t together. It's all a damn game. Today they caught 20 (foreign) companies making profit with Greek spreads...
My dad has his apt with the oncologist tommorow. My mom feels better and is having the MRI soon. Me and H have an MC apt tommorow at 6. I need to talk about the affair and what I feel about it. Cant be holding things in for too long.
K
I dont know anything about Greek politics I am afraid apart from they are saying on the news there is big debts there.. but there are big debts everywhere (especialy mine, lol!).
Thats great news you have an MC appointment, I was going to ask that. I was wondering if you could ask H why he didnt get you/do anything for Valentines.. and how he thought it made you feel that he didnt and how that fits with trying to be closer and more loving to one another!? I agree you should ask about the A, if there are things you want to ask..
Good luck for your Dad tomorrow xxx
Hey Maria, don't worry too much about politics or anything else you can't control....and before anybody gets on me for saying you can not contrpol the politicians, I mean other than voting once every four years or so.
Your energiesa are much better spent on your loved ones. I hope your dad gtes some positive news tommorow.
<<I need to talk about the affair and what I feel about it. Cant be holding things in for too long.>> I agree that you need to talk about it if you need to, however, I am still not convinced that talking about it with your husband present is a good idea. Please remember that I am not a counselor nor have I written any books.
John, I was worried about you. Are you ok?
Hi Al!
The funny thing is Papandreou is an American born citizen.
Just like John says, you cant get too worked up about politics, corruption and greed. There is more things in life to enjoy.
Hi guys,
my dad has to do a biopsy to find out what kind of cancer it is and then he will do chemo.
H cancelled the MC today because he was requested to go to a preparatory meeting for the trip tommorow. I think I will go by myself and see if I can explain to her how I feel about all this without worrying he will get upset.
I feel I am ready to do something REALLY crazy. Something that will be only for me. That will make me happy. I need to figure out what could that be...
K
It is good that you are still going to go. Talking to the C without H around is probably better so you can make sure when H does hear how you are feeling that it is in a constructive way that is not going to push him away. He has definitely made some progress so you don't want to stop that by making him feel worthless again.
Have a good day and hopefully you can think of something fun to do for you!
Hey K.. so sorry your Dad needs a biopsy and more treatment. At least they said he COULD do more chemo though as you hoped? So there is hope perhaps.
Why not .. resign your job! Stay home and paint etc and launch your own jewellery business (I can be the UK arm!), with H's wages you wont need to work, right? That way you can spend time in the day with him before he goes to his evening job...ha maybe you should put that to him.. if you wont resign one of your jobs so we can have more time together as a family, then I will resign mine!
xxx
Use your C time to talk about ALL that you feel inside. About the past, the present, the future and your dreams. Get it ALL out to her....without H around....it will do you alot of good...guaranteed.
Big Hugs to your dad!
I feel I am ready to do something REALLY crazy. Something that will be only for me. That will make me happy. I need to figure out what could that be...
The possibilities of CRAZY fun happy stuff to do are unlimited!
Well Kerry, don't leave me hanging man. What is CRAZY fun happy stuff to do? I must have no imagination because I can't seem to think of one thing.
Share man! I need ideas!
Hope your dad's biopsy goes okay. *Fingers crossed*
Glad you are going even though H can't.
You gonna dye your hair bright blue? Or something even crazier?
Oooh....there's an idea! I actually have been seeing quite a few people who have dyed a few big chunky pieces in an underlayer a deep blue or dull pink. That seems like fun but my office would frown on it.
I usually look on line at local web sites event calendars. There is always something weird going on, but I live in the Portland area which is well....weird.
There is meetup.com which has lots of groups that do things.
Athens Greece (not Georgia) metropolitan area has a population of 3,686,371. Surely there is crazy stuff going on somewhere in that city every day.
I've tried those but there is very little going on in my area. Atlanta has lots of things going on but getting my friends to go up there is difficult in the extreme. They don't like to leave the bubble of our county very often.
Funny you mention Athens, GA Kerry. There is always tons of stuff going on up there that is free or cheap because it's a college town (UGA - go DAWGS). Wish it weren't a 2 hour drive.
Gee K, there have to be all sorts of fun things going on in and around Athens that you could do. Of course, I especially love Ali's idea of quitting your job. That is my lifelong dream!
Atlanta seems like only a 40 minute drive for you. Have you seen this website?:
http://www.atlanta.net/50fun/
Maria, have you ever wanted to learn how to swing dance?...
http://www.athensswingcats.com/index.html
OMG Kerry!!! Where do you find these things? You are a web guru extrordinaire! I'm going to check that out more fully right now. Thank you.
Swingcats in Athens? WOW!!!!! I need a partner though. (I have taken classes for most of the latin dances, mambo is still my favourite...)
IC was...ok. I talked, she listened and then said :so, you come across as someone torn in two. One side of you wants this desperately to work out and the other feels your H is holding you back, "freezing" your life. I said she was almost right. She said "then, break it off, he wont be doing much more than what you are getting any time soon". THANKS doc!!! Much appreciated.
She said she heard regret and grief about my choice to reconcile last year. True. She said she hears I am so deeply hurt and disapointed that he obviously hasnt realised. I am not sure about that. I think he chooses not to see it so that he wont have to act on it.
She said "stop talking about your M, you came here for you! I told her my M is my problem right now. The rest of my life is ...fine.
Not very productive. She made me feel like all this effort is useless..
K
It sounds like she is maybe better suited for marriage counseling when both people are there.
What effort?
My brother told me that a marriage should be somewhat effortless. That is how his marriage is. The husband and wife should just know what makes each other happy. They should be able to communicate freely and easily with each other.
I still dont get your H's choices. It seems his job is #1. The kids are #2. And you are #3.
If you want to stay married, you are just going to have to accept that is who he is.
Well...we know how slow he moves. And how much individual work he has to do. So, she's right. You WON'T be getting much more in the very near future.
If you are that frustrated/impatient...
You have been very forgiving, very dedicated, very supportive, for a LONG time. No one, including her, would blame you if you gave up.
Why do you feel like something needs to happen Now?
Kerry - Seems to me your brother and my XH might be related. My XH told me that M shouldn't require work either, obviously we weren't meant for each other. Especially after all I've learned, I think they're both living in a fantasy land.
Oh is my ex related?? If he had to work at it then it must not be love. Well easy as pie he found himself that doesn't have a clue who he is. He keeps trying to do things he hated before like play board games so that he will come off as some great guy. If that isn't work...
This is going to go slowly I fear, you just need to know if you are willing to hang in there.
hugs, kat
I feel I am ready to do something REALLY crazy. Something that will be only for me. That will make me happy. I need to figure out what could that be...
K
Looks like things are going so well for you that its not so exiting anymore and you are out looking for some more trouble?
LOL!!! fb2, I have a big smile on my face... I can alwyas count on you to set me straight!!
No, I have enough excitement in my life. I just need some joy, joy is the right word.
H told me yesterday he will be away on my birthday(3/3). To a city here. One they had been together. The day he left, I was at my priest, May 2007, crying my eyes out and wishing it was all a nightmare.
I dont care at all. He cant take me out for lunch and dancing and so on. That's what I want for my birthday. To dress up, look good, go for dinner, dancing with friends... That's what I would like. We couldnt do that together. I would have to arrange my bday surprises. LOL !!!
He cant tell me he loves me and that I am his woman, someone he appreciates and is happy that he has in his life. He cant tell me anything I would like him to. He cant. It's ok. I will be getting a nice present I can later on sell on ebay...
Kalni
PS If life is short, WTH do I bother? The C really affected me last night.
Hey K... you are sounding like you feel.. negative. I think, C's are there to support us, she sounds very "person centred" type counselling.. she let the session go in whatever direction it needed to the last twice. So, you expressed your unhappiness and doubt things will ever change and.. she supported that and validated! They only have to go on what you tell them and the way you paint it, it does make us all wonder.. do you really WANT this guy as your H? But it seems that you do love him, so...
When he told you that he is away on the 3rd (ignoring the connection to ow, just the fact he is away for your bd).. what did YOU say in response?
How did you react?
Did you say, ahhh.. thats a shame, I am disappointed, I wanted us to dress up..go out, go dancing with friends...?
If you did say anything, what was his reply?
Did you say.. ok, so WHEN do you want to take me out instead then, another night?
Or.. is this another time you "let him off the hook"?
He did tell you he appreciates and loves you and you are his only woman, that affects him and he listens to in that letter? But no.. he doesnt say it to your face. Have you asked him why not??
Have you asked him how it would feel if you didnt arrange anything at all for his birthday and not even the day before or after, if you had to work?
Have you asked him how he would feel if you had ignored Valentines Day?
Have you asked him if he has 'forgiven' you yet (forgive and forget) about your dalliance last summer?
What do you guys talk about !???
Sorry, lol, feeling a bit stumped lately. My feeling is.. you continue to be ambivalent about this R/your chances and like animals can smell fear.. maybe he is picking up on it and is equally discouraged!!? I still have this image in my minds eye of you two standing in adjoining rooms with a softly closed connecting door.
xxx
PS If life is short, WTH do I bother? The C really affected me last night.
To me it is one of the worst if not the worst 'coined phrases' ..."life is too short". Definetely a pet peeve of mine. Reason is cuz short/long ..it is entirely and hugely relative. Short/long when compared to what?? You get what the Lord gives you in terms of time to wander on the planet. His concept of time and how much of this and that has no imperfection ..just seems like it sometimes from our flawed human view.
Decide on positiveness related to the session with the C. Only you can do that. Consciously decide. (+).. not (-)
More prayers for your pop. Hope he is finding positives too. If not, he's got you.
we seem mired in a sowewhat similar mode of this overall predicament all of us are here about. Though your spouse is @ home. maybe mine too, just never felt home with me.
Maria,
Maybe you should be asking your C for details regarding coping mechanisms.
I know she needs to get to know you both and get a feel for the situation, but I know for me, that wasn't enough. I knew what was going on. I knew the dynamics. I didn't want to just sit and 'discuss' it all. I needed coping mechanisms. That's what the cognitive behavioural therapy helped me with. It helped me to learn to deal with that which I could deal with, and to store away the stuff I couldn't deal with until a point when I could deal with it.....and stop worrying about it until then. Because it was all the worrying about the 'what if's' that was stoppping me being able to recommit.
I'll put my two cents here on the C. My thing is she is the only one out of us here that has actually met H and heard what he has had to say.
She is basing her direction on where the man has been for 3 years. He has been stuck in limbo.
Also, how long has he been depressed? Because evidently it seems since before August which is when K found out. So, he could ML to OW but not K while severly depressed.
Sorry, I don't buy it.
M~ along time ago you posted to me when I was in piecing something, when I was seeing "not so good" signs from my H. You said "I dont know what to say. I may be projecting here, I maybe waaaaay off but, he sounds like he is in the middle. In the middle of something. I cant really put my finger on it but his back and forth isnt...right."
So, I say to you ... Something isn't right, sometimes you have to stop excusing the behavior and accept the behavior for what is. He's not doing the work.
OK that said ~ on the Bday situation... I had to deal with H traveling on important dates too. It sucks but work does interefere with our expectations. Plan it for a different day. Did you want him to take off? Tell him... he can't read your mind. My H could never take off for silly reasons like that though. LOL
I wanted to post seperate about you mom and dad.
I am so sorry to hear about your dad. I went through similar things with my dad in 2001 and then again over the summer with mom.
I am praying for you, M.... take good care of your kid's mom. They need her!
Love,
Sandy
Kalni, birthdays, valentine days...a lot of Hs botch those and truly are clueless about the hurt that results. Remember that a lot of happily married women are still nursing Valentine wounds! Ask my sister...
Really the key is to let go of expectations associated with specific dates. I find it hard because I find calendar events meaningful...a reminder to celebrate. But many men feel "manipulated" -- as if the calendar is pressuring them or putting them on the spot.
FWIW, I think it might be a good thing that your H will be away on your birthday. It sets your expectations to zero, and frees you to create the best birthday that you can.
I make a fuss over my kids' birthdays. I plan, plan, plan and bring a lot of creativity and fun (not money) to making it special for them. They love it! I wish I had someone to do that for me, but as an adult, that doesn't happen.
He cant take me out for lunch and dancing and so on. That's what I want for my birthday. To dress up, look good, go for dinner, dancing with friends... That's what I would like.
And you can make that happen. My birthday is 3 days after yours and I've made plans with 3 friends to go out to dinner and listen to jazz. I'm going to look sexy, I'm going to have fun, I'm going to have my friends make a fuss over me, and I'm going to do something that I haven't done in years. Your birthday is
your day and no one can take that away from you. I challenge you to plan a birthday for you, with all the energy and love that a doting mother would devote to doing that for her child.
The only explanation I have is that H is not in love with me. He loves me and as the C said, "he just cant break away from you, I dont know what it is to hold him so connected with you but he seems to have done all possible to get away from you only to come back again". It's not much different to where I am. We are tangled into a unhealthy R, both unable to take the next step although we both have good reasons. The only difference is that I am willing to act in a way that will bring back the missing emotions while he isnt.
It's how we are. I am more passionate about things and life and since I decided to turn this around, I am willing to work hard for it. He isnt that way. As long as he doesnt do his part, I hold back, as long as I hold back, he isnt "feeling" well into our M. Again a gridlock.
The C doesnt know him. And She has seen him twice. And she has told me she is not exprienced with couples counceling. I do know better where we stand. I dont buy the depression thing either btw.
H left yesterday. Which is agood thing at this point. I need a break. A week will be good. He was very upset leaving the...kids. And made me feel stupid again for a minute.
In our M, dates and anniversaries were downplayed. You see, for the first 3-4 years, all the important dates were close to other dates, sad dates, deates of death, weeks of someone being in the hospital,business trips, all these forced me to not care about these much. But I dont want that. I want it to be different.
Ali, you know, like very few people do, that when he said he wanted back, I wasnt excited and happy about it. I agreed only if he was willing to do his part. I cannot generate good feelings on my own. Loving feelings have got to be a product of our interactions. And that isnt happening much.
K
You should really take this week to really figure out what you want. It seems that you both love each other on some level, but there is only so much a person can take. Have some fun, relax as much as you can, and try to figure out what is best for you.
Hey Maria,
When I read the depressed hypothesis laid out by some people, I can not really comment because I have no experience in the matter (happily). You are the best judge of what your husband is going through. I heard a dr. on Larry King say that Tiger looked depressed yesterday...i did not notice. Since you are not buying it I will take your word for it. Simply put, his inability to move is one of three things. As you stated, he loves you but is not in love with you. He is getting his love somewhere else. He has a physical condition that does not permit him to pursue you (ok the last one is pretty vague but it is the best I can do this morning). What is painfully apparent is that you are not happy. I have not read many books and have had limited experience with piecing. I can't think of any moment since his return that you actually described as happy or joyous or amourous. Caring yes. That is probably what your C saw as well when she asked why are you sticking around....even if you were seperated or divorced what would you lose (other than finances potentially). Please remember Maria that the picture we see is the one you paint for us...your view of your life. It lacks .... colour. Vivid, vibrant colours. You will have to add those colours and not expect your H to supply them for you. If the tendancy is maintained, not in the near future anyway.
You lived with H pre bomb and now have been piecing for a while. You have a councellor who although does not know H (who is probably forming an opinion according to what you describe) telling you what you see is what you get.
At this point I echo Kerry's sentiments which are probably indicative of many others here....your H is who he is and you know what he brings to the table....you and only you know if that is what you want going forward. I am sure that some folks here would give their right arm to be in piecing...you are where we have all aspired to be....myself included. I came to a realization as you well know. I could not live with what was presented to me....I gave up alot....today I am rebuilding slowly....I am slowly rebuilding John.....
Angelo a buddy of mine who has gone through some tough times (like we all have) once told me something that I laughed off at the time (I usually laugh off most of what he says). He told me that happiness is ALL about expectations. The higher your expectations, the higher the chance of being disappointed. Makes sense if you think about it....
Kalni,
I know what you are going through on almost all levels, including a very sick father. I'm experiencing the very same things with H - the only difference is the physical aspect. I have no words of advice but just wanted to lend some support.
Hang in there!
I am sorry about your dad addie. Thanks for understanding.
John, I am venting, I am thinking out loud here. I dont talk about my "M" with my friends anymore. They feel they have to advise me something and I know they cant. I am not always, every minute questioning my choices, I do often, but not always.
Btw, if I thought my expectations were too high or even just high, I would reconsider. I dont believe so.
K
Hey K, yes I remember how reluctant you were last September when he said he wanted to try again! I remember texting you every day from the beach hoping you would hear him out at least.
I know you cant do it on your own, I just think you retreated behind a wall and its still there isnt it. I saw you posted recently something about the more he isnt intimate with you, the more you continue to "hold back". So I was just asking how your communcation was, do you let him know in real time, at the moment how you feel, instead of just silently brooding, or storing up another disappointment, even if thats not obvious. At least you can come here and let it out. So.. I was curious, what exactly did you say to him when he told you you had to work on your birthday ??
I might be going on holiday for mine for that week... bf suggested Greece!
xxx
Ohh great!! Come! For a week? Where do you want to go? Maybe I will join you (he he)...
K
He actually said, lets go and see Maria again!! Bless him. But maybe greece somewhere, is it warm there in mid March?? (its not warm here, there was ice on the roads this morning and snowing in parts of Cornwall!!) I fancy somewhere north on the mainland (near Thessoloniki?) thats supposed to be nice isnt it. We were meant to go there on holiday in July 07, we had the leave booked and I kept sending him the flights by email to book and they were going up, but in the end he refused to go.. he said he was "too tired".
xx
Mid March is unpredictable. North is definitely colder than Athens. What would you like to do? That is the question.
I am not ignoring your questions. I am just trying to clear my vision a bit this week that he is away.
No, I didnt ask for a rain check. I didnt suggest I go with him, I didnt say we can do something on the weekend. I just told him not to worry about it. He caught me by surprise.
K
It's how we are. I am more passionate about things and life and since I decided to turn this around, I am willing to work hard for it. He isnt that way. As long as he doesnt do his part, I hold back, as long as I hold back, he isnt "feeling" well into our M. Again a gridlock.
Are you working "smart" instead to break this useless cycle? The WAS usually does not or is incapable of doing the work, and perhaps you are expecting what's not possible or are coming to incorrect conclusions. I didn't sense you were in "piecing" after reading your recent posts. What most of the others are saying about "negative thinking", the shallowness of "birthday/valentine's day" feelings and "expectations" in general seems to come across to me too. Perhaps his coming back means you have to change in these areas. You are right that others' advice (including the C, and mine too) is just that something seen thru' their narrow vision and so you'd have to pause to think about it and then either use it or blow it away - I discovered this the very hard way myself.
I am sure you are overwhelmed with all the advice you receive. While he is gone, do stuff just for you and the kids. Recharge your batteries. Do a dinner party for friends on your birthday. Have a lovely day today, just because.
hugs, kat
We all too often blame depression as a cause for our problems. He's depressed. She's depressed. It's still painful to confront ourselves when someone else tells us they don't love us anymore, or, they love someone else more.
Many people WILL be depressed when they face either losing the spouse they love, or, leaving the spouse they loved. However, to think that treating the depression or waiting for it to go away, will bring love back, is ridiculous.
Kalni...keep things in perspective. Time is on your side. Play the game of Twister...keep one hand on your faith and the other foot well planted in reality.
Sagapo.
FIB
So, historically, dates were down-played. You want to do something special for your birthday. But you didn't tell him that.
I dunno, sounds pretty obvious why he isn't make a big deal out of Valentine's day, your birthday, etc.
If you don't say to him, "I want to go to dinner and dancing for my birthday, even if it's not on the exact day" he will never figure it out.
That is a great point. Spell it out. I want xyz for my birthday when we celebrate it. It may not always be this way, you just have to retrain both of your thought processes!
kat
I just found out we are getting some kind of extra bonus this year, almost 4000 euros for me!!! Which means I will be 99% debt free and free to buy....PURSES again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah!
And... Victoria Secrets' order did get here today. John posted it to me on Dec 9th!!! 2,5 month but hey, I thought it was lost, H had paid it with his card (he found out later), it's an extra bonus for me!!! (wow when those people say PLUNGE they REALLY mean it, I feel like Suzy Onatop staring on "Hispanic Novel" night already!!!
SO
Congratulations on the bonus! That is wonderful. I hope you enjoy your new purses! The VS stuff sounds great too. Hope H likes it.
SWEET!
That's so awesome!
(((Maria)))
Kalni...keep things in perspective. Time is on your side. Play the game of Twister...keep one hand on your faith and the other foot well planted in reality.
FIB
F,
who's to say that faith-based approach/thinking is in any way less than reality. Maybe you, I am not quite sure on what it is you are implying/saying so I shall not place words other than those you "spoke" as attributable to you. My point is that life (and I speak as a Christian) does not have an 'A/B toggle switch' built into it when it comes to basing thing on your faith vs. basing things on "reality". Hogwash! They are one in the same. That is too complex, life is meant to be simpler than that ..until we go screw it up!
Through Christ and only through Christ do I know this.
Ted
<<Hogwash! They are one in the same. That is too complex, life is meant to be simpler than that ..until we go screw it up!>>
Hey Ted, I know you mean well and are a good Christian and all...but we are all well meaning on this site regardless of our religious affiliations. We all have opinions...no need to refer to a brother's opinion as hogwash.
Your reality may be your faith. Someone else's reality may differ. Who is to say what is right or wrong?
Hi Lotus!! No, I am not buying any new purses. I am actually saving my colector's Valentino one for my... daughter. It's such a classic, vintage, subtle, elegant, discreet "piece". I am done with purses (ok maybe not done but close enough-LOL).
Underwear is another story. I feel sexier with sexy unedrwear. I dont think H will see any of it soon though...
I am calculating my debts vs the unexpected money I am getting. And it looks good! I think I will be able to start saving a little every month. I never done that since me and H had common accounts (he took with him when he left). And I am excited about it!!
FB, Tomato, John, faith and religion are a very personal issue. I admire people that can really LIVE their faith.
FB, I am very "grounded".
H has been calling 10 times a day. I am upbeat and friendly. LIke I would be with a close friend of mine. He is living some real exciting days. He is currently in SunCity. Monkeys got into their rooms and stole the fruit! He had dinner tonight, under the moonlight, with a zulu tribe dancers group dancing around the fires. Elephants and lions making "noises" not very far away. He sounded very impressed. Not a sign of depression I can see. To think I asked to go along, makes me...jealous. Ijust wont take him with me to Montreal. LOL
K
His constant calling is a good sign. Too bad you weren't there to experience it all as well. That will come in time.
As for the underwear - GREAT MOVE!! You'll feel sexier and it will show in your attitude.
H will see it in you too.
RTL
I love Victoria's Secret. I stocked up in the US
I love VS as well and I love women who love to wear the stuff from VS.
Ted
<<Hogwash! They are one in the same. That is too complex, life is meant to be simpler than that ..until we go screw it up!>>
Hey Ted, I know you mean well and are a good Christian and all...but we are all well meaning on this site regardless of our religious affiliations. We all have opinions...no need to refer to a brother's opinion as hogwash.
Your reality may be your faith. Someone else's reality may differ. Who is to say what is right or wrong?
I really doubt that there was any need to come to FIB's defenses unless he expressly asked you to do so. It just so happens that he and I know each other somewhat off of this board.
I did direct my remarks squarely at him. He and I challenge each other on our thinking from time to time.
If you were offended by it then you have my apology. More importantly if FIB was offended by it (and he might have been but has not 'weighed in') then at such a time I would take whatever necesarry steps to preserve and make better things between he & I. To come rushing in on something like this seems almost silly to me as if somebody is incapable of speaking for themselves. I am sure that is not the case.
Ted
I referred to his opinion as hogwash????
It seems to me you re-arranged some words that were never said in that way.
And until and unless FIB, who my original remarks were expicitly addressed to chooses to sound off to me perhaps on my own thread then I am done with it. Surely in Maria's space here I am done with it.
Sorry for the ruffling of feathers. I am sure they will go back into place. They always do.
Ted
it does stink that you aren't able to experience everything with H, but maybe this time apart will allow him to get upbeat and you to get some time to gain some strength. Since he is calling you 10 times a day, that is awesome and you can work on your communication that way so when H gets back maybe things will be a little easier because you can work on the friendship over the phone.
!!!!!! Wistle blows !!!!!!
John and Ted
Uncecessary roughing penalty in Kalni's thread.
2 minutes each in the box.
Kalni - put on that leopard skin girl thingy and SCORE!
alright, alright ..to the box it is. aint my first time there and surely won't be my last! haha
Hey Ms. Maria..
Work on you... the rest will follow. It's not about fixing the marriage. It's about becoming the best you can be.
It's easy to point the finger and be angry at your spouse. It's easy to chalk up the injustices. It's easy to b!tch about him, his failings.
Next time he talks, listen. The guy is frickin' terrified of you, cowering like a puppy with its tail between its legs.
What is the message? No.. not that one. Nope.. not that one either.
The message is.. work on you. With a professional. It doesn't make you wrong or weak. It's using the appropriate tools to clear the pathway to meet your goals. And remember, denial is not a river in Egypt.
The apple does not fall far from the tree. Your mother would rather risk serious consequences than have an MRI, using taking care of your father as an excuse.
Take care of your soul, the incredible you...
You're worth it.
*hugs*
Hey K.. you say he doesnt sound depressed, maybe he isnt. Or, maybe its easier to be happy and upbeat and enjoy a new and exciting setting, with no reminders of what an *rsehole you are and general failure as a H/father. Dont be too quick to judge. BF went on 5 holidays in 2008 and according to his friends, seemed happy and fine. The reality was (who he told noone).. he hated himself and was almost suicidal. Not saying tahts your H's reality, but.. appearances ARE deceptive.
I still think you need to look at and address your communication issues with him.. Michelle is right, how is H supposed to know you actually want to be made a fuss of, around or on your birthday if you have always 'gone along' with the unwritten rule that anniversarys/dates are not made much of? But secretly you are annoyed/angry or just feel let down..
I was once told very starkly by an astrologer, that as a Pisces with Mercury in Pisces too, I can often speak "in forked tongues" meaning I dont always say what I mean, or mean what I say, or that people get confused by what I say.. this has been demonstrated to me alot over the years!! Becasue I am aware of it (and I took it on the chin what he said to me)... I try to be straight and honest with bf. If something upsets/worries me or makes me happy, I tell him pretty much in real time, or the best next thing (like wait until we are alone, or he has time to listen).
Do you think you could do a bit of practising in this area? And I dont mean email him (that never works!) but actually talk to him in the moment, rather than brush things under the carpet or let him off the hook...
Whistle is blown. My only comments:
-I did not talk to John nor ask him to come to my defense. I DO admire John for many of his conscientious posts. He is not afraid to call it as he sees it. He has 'guided' me at many points and I respect his input. I think Kalni is fortunate to have him on her thread
-I try to avoid confrontations on this website to avoid detracting from the main issue...supporting our member
-I don't insult members here
-Kalni is a bright woman. She knows where I come from. I know where SHE comes from
-Kalni has listened to my advice. She has also ignored that which I have posted which she feels or knows doesn't apply to her
AND FINALLY: I don't care WHO says VS thong underwear is out fashion-wise. BRING IT ON!!!!!!
FIB
PS I won't push rose-colored glasses on ANYONE here anymore nor foster denial. I WILL support what THEY want to do. (Yiassou Kalni)
Whistle IS blown!! Just because you are the bday boy, I 'll let it slide that you brought this up again.
I am a bright woman, thank you!! I dont wear thongs I like brazilian cut better but it's all a matter of taste...
K
PS I am doing some work on me Kathleen, I never stopped. Sometimes progress is achieved with small steps, 2 back, 1 forward. It has been an interesting ride. If someone asked me today, where do I think all this is going, I couldnt answer. I have no idea. It's 50%-50%. But I DO know where I want it to go. And that's what I am trying to do.
Brah-SEEL-yan. Yowza. FIB
I am sorry, missed that one. It must be TOO American or too weird FIB!!
Hey, Happy Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!
"If someone asked me today, where do I think all this is going, I couldn't answer."
And yet if we had asked you this question at the beginning of all this.. the answer would have been the same.
"But I DO know where I want it to go. And that's what I am trying to do."
And you have been all along.
"Brah-SEEL-yan."
Brazilian Thong.
I forget to check piecing, and it all goes to thong talk! That will teach me!
(((((Kalni)))))
Yep. You are behind the power curve Jeff!
OK with all this VS talk I need to really up the workouts....
I prefer the bikinis or hipsters...Not a thong girl but my boot camp instructor is which is obvious every time she does a power squat or lunge in front of us...
Just a little food for the boys' imaginations...
She's obviously wearing the wrong kind! If she was wearing the right kind, you'd be wondering if she was even wearing underwear! LOL I find lace bands to be SUPER comfortable, and as an added bonus they don't give panty lines under almost everything!
I agree Michelle, lace bands are the way to go
I think the work out chick is wanting them to show! But only the man upstairs would know why! LOL
I love to vaccuum in my thongs.....
It's deja vu all over agin!
I was trying to picture that and then thought better of it!!
kat
Oh John caro, yes deja vu, 2 years later!!!!
Maybe I will start wearing and showing thongs... Who knows? Maybe the gym chick knows something we dont.
K
Thong- Canada AND Beavers!!! OMG!! Kerry that was so funny!
Not a thong girl but my boot camp instructor is which is obvious every time she does a power squat or lunge in front of us...
Just a little food for the boys' imaginations...
I knew I could count on you for nourishment, thanks a million sis!
Ted
I didn't explain it right...
The tops of her undies don't show over her workout gear. It is just that she wears form-fitting spandex tights/leggings with shirts that stop at the waist (some of us wear longer t-shirts b/c we have ab issues!
)...
So when she is in a deep squat you can see this triangle above her butt crack (sorry, tmi) which I assume is the top of the thong under her tights.
And yes, I do look at her butt. When I am feeling the urge to quit trying, I look at her bod and remember why I am working out....motivational ogling I suppose!
BBJ - LMAO - I had the same view at this kickboxing class a few weeks back. The triangle pissed me off, because I felt if I had something like that on, it would need to have a few more ANGLES added to cover!! I wear the pants, too, but I'm w/you on the t-shirts!
BBJ, I knew exactly what you meant. It has been named the whale tail.
If she was wearing the right kind though (low rise to go with her low rise pants) they still wouldn't show. Or she could just buy pants that cover her butt LMAO. But where's the fun in that?
Most times I happen to see a thong in public, I really wish I hadn't! Kinda scary! There are, of course, exceptions!
"If someone asked me today, where do I think all this is going, I couldn't answer."
And yet if we had asked you this question at the beginning of all this.. the answer would have been the same.
"But I DO know where I want it to go. And that's what I am trying to do."
And you have been all along.
So what are we mortals to infer from this profound observation?
"Brah-SEEL-yan."
Brazilian Thong.
I'm sure it costs almost as much as a Greek Island for this microscopic patch of real estate. Make sure H sees you in it so you BOTH get to feel sexy assuming that's one of the places you want to go.
I am at work, just talked to H. He is coming back tommorow. I am not surprised to say that I am much much calmer since he left and that I wish things were simplier between us because it burdens me with stress.
....and the $64 million question is... did you miss him??
Its not good that it stresses you out. How did he sound? Relaxed? Looking forward to coming home? Maybe he will be a little more demonstrative when he sees you, after being away for a week.
xxx
I remember Michelle saying in one of her books that she used to dread coming home from trips because her H always was a bit grumpy and had a list of things that went wrong. She decided to practice what she preaches and acted as if things would be nice and calm when he greeted her...and they were.
We often set things up in our heads and create just the opposite experience that we wanted because we play out the way things have always been.
Give him the hoecoming that you both deserve.
hugs, kat
The good thing is I am calmer. He throws me off balance or maybe I throw myself off balance when he is here. From the beginning, despite my complaints, I felt better and more confident when the contact was limited. Even if it was positive contact.
I have built this protective wall around me with hurt, anger and failed expectations and when he is around, my senses are on red alert all the time. I cant even begin to tell you how frustrating and tiring that is.
He sounds...flat. Not very excited about coming home but he misses the kids. I had my son ask him for a diamond "for his future wife and D" but that didnt do the trick either...
I know neither of us is in love. Our lives are tangled together and we cant break it off, or so it seems now. I am only going to try to communicate my thoughts and needs in a better non threatening way. I tried to identify what was different when we were happy and what I do different when I am interacting with other people. I am just honest but I have my sting hidden.I take things as I hear them and not color them with hidden motives. Now, that is difficult to do with H but I practiced in writting with "automatic thinking" (dont know how it is called in English) and I have identified how I revert to old ways when being with him. I will keep that on mind.
The fact is we could turn this around if we BOTH do our part of the job. I have to accept that the way he is doing or can do his job is not my way. But that should not be my focus.
We'll see how it goes..
K
Try to start thinking positive thoughts. I understand how hard that is, especially after all the hurt and pain, but if you can start thinking positive and focusing on the positive, it will give you more energy and a better outlook with H. Expect good things like said above. Act and treat him with a happy smile. If you have had a bad day at work, tell him about it and treat him like you would any other friend. It is important to start by becoming friends again and talking. Gaining common ground. Then the other will follow.
Well, H arrived and left from the airport. He looked tired and distracted. My gut feeling said something was off. I bypassed it and hugged him and kissed him n his lips and welcomed him. I kept "happy" and easygoing for as long as we were together. Put him in a taxi and he left. He said he wont go to work today. He feels very tired after the trip.
When I went down to baggage reclaim to find him, the one person he was with at the trip, told me he was still "downstairs" smoking a cigarette. I called him and he said there were huge lines at passport control. When he came to where I was, 10 minutes later, he avoided eye contact. I made a comment about it, it was so obvious. You dont want to know what my thoughts about that were, I ignored them and was a warm wife.
K
Hmmmmmmmm.....not sure what to say about that other than....take care of you and the kids and let H stew in whatever he's stewing in.
Are you sure it is a good idea ..... to ignore this? ....not at this point. You know there are signs that something is "not right". Most of the guys here have been shaking their heads for a while. Now is not time to look the other way Maria. I am concerned that you do not trust him. Of course with all you have seen and read that is more than normal. The fact that he is not doing what it takes in my opinion to regain your trust does not help.
Listen Maria, I do not want to add to your negative feelings. I think some things need to be said here however.....hopefully for your benefit and that of others. If your H goes away for a week and comes back and seems "distracted".....there is cause for concern. Again I am going with what you are writing here...I can't believe that he would have the stones to be smoking with someone else at the airport...where you work.....
Ahh, I'm sorry but sounds like you 'toughed' it out and tried.
Ok, I didn’t understand. I’ve been there, there were huge queues at passport control (even for Greek nationals?) and I guess its not surprising he may want to wait and smoke a cigarette when he just got off a long haul flight, being a smoker.. and he couldn’t do that if he went and queued (is that right??) and who was the other person on the trip.. you mean his business colleague, a man? He came through and told you H was downstairs??
All I can say is, ask him. Failing that, you have his password and access to his phone.. go through his messages/call log next time he takes a shower. Its reasonable to snoop in the early days to set your mind at rest.
Did he kiss you hello at least?
xx
That must hurt. Reunions are such a delicate time and it sounds like his body language was not reassuring in the slightest. I hope that the "stuck" energy shifts for both of you.
No, no... I didnt think he was with someone. I thought he called someone to let them know he had landed safely and then felt too guilty to make eye contact...
John, I've told you so many times. I dont trust him. I dont think there is ONE person that would in my shoes and if there is one, I am not that one. I mean, this is what's supposed to be one the big issues now : trust.
K
See, this is why I don't know how a lot of people make it through piecing. If it were me, any time Dan was 'unaccounted for' I would start smelling an OW...
Granted those who piece successfully are prob those whose spouses take actions to show that there is no reason to fear an OW (transparency, affection, words of support, etc.)
All I can say is, yuck K. This stinks. Pulling for you though...
Hmmmm. Interesting.
Good job on acting as if.
That is interesting about the delay. Maybe someone called him. Maybe it was ex-OW. And since he knows you want NC, he doesn't want to talk about it. Or maybe it was from work and it was bad news (which could explain him not going to work too).
We could speculate all day and get nowhere.
Asking is a good idea instead of jumping to conclusions. The key is to not be accusatory so he feels he can tell you whatever it is that made him not have eye contact. Later ask, I noticed you were aloof when you left. Is there something bothering? Is there something we need to talk about? Actually try to rephrase it so that it is more open ended and not a yes/no question, but get him to talk about it so that maybe he can have the chance to reassure you.
It does sound fishy to me as well, but you never know what he is thinking so it is best to ask.
I agree and I like the way you put that. I seem to get myself into so much trouble when I jump to conclusions. Get it out in the open and don't let it slide but do it in a kind manner.
kat
I had access to H's laptop for the first time today. I went through it of course. He has some files saved from her, all dated before he "came back". What amazed me was her conviction (?) to have him. The men here will say it's a woman's thing but she was soooo persistent and even pathetic as she was trying to convince him I was the wrong choice. At the same time, I was telling him, he was free to go as he wanted all along.
She used the sex card alot. Apparently H had been saying our sex life was terrible because after she would use the kids card(!!!!), the kids will suffer in an unhealthy marriage, she would quote all sorts of books saying that a healthy sex life is important for a R. As if we didnt know that. I am now begining to worry more about our lack of intimate encounters. Because since I am still here, fighting, I want this to work. And so far, her words have come true. We have no sexual desire for each other... Got to do something about that and talking isnt gonna be it.
K
PS I acted as if the whole time yesterday He brought me SPA lotions and bath milks, a really nice Tshirt, African necklaces and something for the house.
PS2 He has saved on his laptop, a few of my emails addressed to PC. The name of the file is not so "nice".
Why would he still have files saved from her?
That has to hurt when you read those things that went on between them. Especially when they both talk about your intimate relationship with your H. This woman pulling the kid card is incredibly desperate and sick - I can totally understand your disdain for her. I dont know how you heal from reading these details.
Sexual intimacy opens doors that talking and time don't. It would only work if it feels right to you...
Hey K, good that you checked his laptop, I would have done too.
They are OLD emails/files though hey, past, history, but still as Kerry says, it must have hurt.
How do you feel now? I mean, seeing as there were no NEW messages between them, do you feel relieved?
I understand its hard to trust him after the way he acted, but whats the purpose of not trusting him at all as your post said? Protection? So you will know, what, straight away if it happens again? To minimise hurt? So you dont feel stupid if he does it again and you dont know/find out??
Would it be any easier to conduct your R without the shadow of mistrust? Because that does sound stressful and like you must be on "high alert" all the time, or a part of your brain is. Can you downgrade it and just go on orange alert?.. may be a potential threat, or yellow even, maybe a threat in the future, or, well whatever it is! Didnt America stay on high alert since 9/11 but it just breeds fear and anxiety and what good does it really do!? Did it stop that guy trying to set light to his underpants on a flight to the US recently?? No!
Anyway, just my thoughts. I understand that to rebuild trust after an A, the WAS has to act in a trustable way, give free access to phones, computers, be open, honest, do MORE than you would in a normal R, go the extra mile to restore trust. I know he isnt doing enough, but he has given you access to these things, now, at least, so maybe take heart from that?
xx
Funny thing is this time reading that email he had on his laptop (the rest were HER work files), I felt stronger. The stupidity of her arguments made me realize she is far more pathetic than I thought. Especially the phrase "if your kids arent a reason good enough for you, then think about your sex life!!!". She was "defending" our kids and thought his sex life was a stronger motive!!!
I can understand why she'd gone crazy. I mean, she actually thought THEY would build a life together, he left us for God's sake, for HER!!! And then, her dream became an agonizing nightmare...
Anyway, the weekend was relaxed and nice. I am acting as the best life partner I can be, granted the situation. I felt much better too. I had moments when I felt I am doing the hard work again but once I would remind myself, I am doing this FOR ME, I was feeling better and more determined.
A couple of times, his mood was low/he felt tired but pretty quickly he would "follow me". I am polite, caring, upbeat, easy going and funny. No R talks, no comments about her or their A, just living the present.
There were a few incidents that felt good like for example, I laid on the carpet tickling my D and him and my S joined us and we were all tickling each other and he actually started tickling me which is rare. Our physical contact is very limited.
Sat moring we went shopping and he bought me what I wanted, a nice black shirt. On Sat evening we met with some friends of ours that were separated but got back together and they are extremely happy. They were talking to us about the new hobbies they took on, the time they spend together, their future plans... I felt a bit awkward but later when they left, I wasnt mad at him as I would have been in the past, I was still sweet and caring tc etc. I think that was something he noticed and was relieved to see I responded differently than what he expected...
He also told me his sister is getting a divorce. That was no surprise for me. She is a typical WAW, that has an A, and thinks her H of 20 years is no longer good enough for her. Mind you this is her second affair. Listening to him teling me the news, gave me the creeps (?sp?), I was thinking "I dont want this to happen to me down the road" and I know he was thinking the same thing "if we can fix this or if we are just kidding ourselves, buying time". That moment, I stopped my thoughts from depressing me and went the "if soemone can do it, we can, yes WE can" road. I think that was another surprise for him, "no effect to US because of THEM".
I am not saying things are great, or even good, but things are better. For me at least. I am doing my best and it is very soothing.
K
You sound more on the + side. I'm wondering: (1) why does he still keep those files and e-mails form the OW if he's really DONE with her? (2) Does he know you know about these files? Perhaps its time to address this head on, including openenly resolving the issues of sex and the kids rather than let all this continue to brew.
I'm getting the impression (1) H is often afraid of you; not that you can do him any harm. But he is constantly trying not to rub you the wrong way as he cannot deal with it when you get emotionally upset. He does not really know where he stands with you. He rather be quietly gone a few days than risk being subject to molten lava from an emotional volcano which he does not have the skills for. He does not feel at home yet. (2) You are actually constantly judging, analyzing, and expecting every little thing related to him and that's adding a lot to the tension. Perhaps you can try to understand how *he* feels about this or that and that would break the ice a bit. Remember that so far you are the much bigger person in this journey.
(1) you are right, he said so, he acts so. Dont know what to do except not attck him and be "friendly and easygoing". I know he doenst feel at home yet, I am working on that.
(2) you are not right about that. Our interactions are from my side, relaxed and trying to boost hie ego. Not always, not when I hit a low but 80% of the times. I am actually very empathetic (?) to his emotional state. I would be even more so if I knew what it is exactly.
The reason I didnt ask him about those emails is because I dont want to be like you said :"constantly judging, analyzing, and expecting every little thing related to him and that's adding a lot to the tension". ANY discussion about it, no matter how "user friendly" I try to make it, it pushes him to the edge, he becomes defensive and scared adn withdraws just as you described it. I figured, we cant talk about these things right now. We first need to establish some kind of solid foundation/environment where we both will feel safe. I may be using the MC time for that and only then.
fb2, I dont know if he is really DONE with her.
I feel for you. Especially in your situation, it has to be hard to believe and trust that H really is completely done with OW. You however are doing an awesome job. I think you have really found a new sense of resolve in what you are doing now, and focusing on the present is very good. Leaving the past for the MC is good so that she can make sure to mediate everything so it doesn't get too heated.
Live in the present and keep doing what is going to make you happy. It seems to be drawing H closer as you are happy because he is less threatened (same issue I have with my H...he is scared of me).
Be happy!
"So what are we mortals to infer from this profound observation?"
"I am at work, just talked to H. He is coming back tomorrow. I am not surprised to say that I am much much calmer since he left and that I wish things were simpler between us because it burdens me with stress."
"I have built this protective wall around me with hurt, anger and failed expectations and when he is around, my senses are on red alert all the time. I cant even begin to tell you how frustrating and tiring that is."
So already.. She knows that things are "different". Yet she just keeps on. To a point.. this is "more of the same".
"He sounds...flat. Not very excited about coming home but he misses the kids."
How would you "react" to someone that has a wall up? You want to be there.. but not really? This is most likely what caused all this in the first place.
"I know neither of us is in love."
Strong statement. Here I was being a DAM and thinking Kalni was doing all this cause she still loved that DAM. Silly me.
"I am only going to try to communicate my thoughts and needs in a better non threatening way."
Many times I have heard this.
"The fact is we could turn this around if we BOTH do our part of the job. I have to accept that the way he is doing or can do his job is not my way. But that should not be my focus."
Confusing statement.
"I have to accept that the way he is doing or can do his job is not my way."
This is your mission.. if you choose to accept it. If that moves you closer to the "goal" then you "Do" it.
"She used the sex card alot."
Sound familiar. What are you looking for? Did it work?
"I am not saying things are great, or even good, but things are better. For me at least. I am doing my best and it is very soothing."
So what does that tell you?
"I dont know if he is really DONE with her."
In the end.. who cares?
He clearly is not DONE with you either.
I have faith the best woman will win.
Mere Mortals!
Forrest,
We are not IN love with each other. We love each other, I think, but not IN love with each other. We feel more like family members living in the same house.
When I express my hurt, he hears attack, when I express my sadness, he hears threat. I am careful when I talk but it seems he is walking on eggshels SOOO bad and he EXPECTS me to be nusty that overlooks reality, which is, I am ONLY communicating my struggle to him.
Of course I have to admit that I am not consistent, I am negative one week, postive the next, he doenst know what to expect and knowing him, he HATES that, it throws him off balancee. He likes predictable things. I like being more consistent too. That's what I have been doing since he left for S. Africa, 2 weeks go. So far it seems to be going better.
Sex card sounds familiar? I have NEVER used the sex card with him. Not that I remember, I missed your point.
I know that between men and women we have to allow the different forms of expressing emotions, thoughts etc etc. I get sometimes stuck to the notion "if it were me I would have done so and so...". I keep reminding myself that's not the way it works...
K
((((((((((((((Kalni)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Unfortunately, I have nothing helpful to say, but I am reading along and hoping for you and your H. This has to be the most gut-wrenching piecing I've ever read but hopefully you will both pull through this time stronger and with better R skills. I know you have certainly grown a lot through this because you worked hard at it. Maybe it will rub off on him.
"We are not IN love with each other. We love each other, I think, but not IN love with each other."
This is something that every LBS has heard. Time and time again they are told.. don't pay attention to it. Being back in "Love" takes time. The mere act of sticking thru and trying to make it "work" is a sign that you are still in Love with him.
"When I express my hurt, he hears attack"
Ok, I understand. But what can you do to change that? How do you approach the "express hurt"? Remember you already have a wall up. People that know you can "see" that. You have to find a new way to "hide" it. (The Wall) People respond to "giving" better. In this stuff you sacrifice more than you get back at times. It is part of the game.
"I am careful when I talk but it seems he is walking on eggshels SOOO bad and he EXPECTS me to be nusty that overlooks reality, which is, I am ONLY communicating my struggle to him."
Again, he is still using the thoughts and process from times past. To be honest it is all he knows. As I have said many times before I can only talk to you. I can only guide you or offer suggestions to you. Again.. that makes you the leader in the situation. I my mind anyway. If you have to get "naked" (relating to my favorite DB.com story) to change things then do it.
"Of course I have to admit that I am not consistent"
Honestly.. you have been very consistent from what you are writing here these past few days(months,years?). You need to focus on what has worked. We have talked about them a few times before.
"he HATES that, it throws him off balance"
It has the same effect on you. Just look at what you are writing.
"He likes predictable things."
Be predictable differently. Surprise him with an action/reaction.
"I have NEVER used the sex card with him."
It is an underlying issue with you. I want him to hold me, kiss me, touch me. You may not be forcing it but it is a thought process that can drive some actions. Be careful with that in the light of the emails from the "girlfriend".
"I keep reminding myself that's not the way it works..."
Keep reminding yourself that you can make it work. Find the value in his actions that are good and feed off that. It is just as easy to do that as it is to feed off the negative value in his actions.
You have the opportunity and the know how and the gumption to change this and make it work. You just have to always be playing the game.
I figured the only way he will start feeling stronger and able to relax in our home is if I remain consistent giving him while allowing him room to give me what he feels he can give. When we talk, I sound like I did when I was on full DB mode, upbeat, flirty, happy, warm, supportive. The Wall is there and I am sure he feels it but there are openings he misses.
Yetsreday I drove my dad to my uncle, 2,5 hours roundtrip. I didnt ask him to come along with ethe kids, my uncle would be I think cold to him but when he suggested he to come along, I didnt hesitate, I happily said "that would be nice, sure!!". My kids bailed out an dhe stayed with them in the end but he saw I in no way keeping him out of my family.
Today I woke up and prepared him a sandwich (his LL is AOS) although he left at 2 in the afternoon and I left at 8, I went to bed and kissed him tenderly to say good bye, I was snuggling with him last night even though he came in very late, I "allowed" him to pay for my shirt, which is something that I NOW realise makes him feel he offers things to me, something that I would NOT allow him to do all the years we were married (my things/clothes/gifts, etc would be paid ONLY by me) an dthanked him with a funny kiss when we came out of the store, I am now and then talking about future plans etc etc, I call him pet names when I call him on the phone, joke around him more and so on. For ME that is HUGE progress. He goes along and seems to enjoy it. I hope he soon figures out how to give back in ways I enjoy... When he left to S. Africa, he made it obvious he was taking with him the book of the 5 LL I asked him to read. I dont know if he read it. I think it would benefit us a lot...
K
But you do see the difference when you focus on being more content and work on you. You can control only yourself. While he does have to find his own way, you have said that eh follows your lead. Kalni is happy, H is more relaxed and getting happy.
Keep up the Good feelings".
kat
That sounds like a weekend of positives!
And it's great that he took 5LL with him! Even if he didn't make it all the way through, the fact that he took it and is making an effort to read it it so positive!
Glad you are feeling content.
What is most important is that you feel good and you feel good about you. Keep doing what you want to do and hopefully H will follow along.
Wow this jumped out at me! :
"I figured, we cant talk about these things right now. We first need to establish some kind of solid foundation/environment where we both will feel safe. I may be using the MC time for that and only then."
Yay, at last! This is a textbook Piecing approach I do believe and I'm so glad to read things are "on the up" if not yet won derful. And brulliant (and very sweet really) that he made the point of showing you he was taking the LL languages book with him.. even if he was too busy to read it (hopefully not).
Keep going you are on the right track!!
xxx
Perhaps...there IS LIGHT? FIB
FIB, nothing has really changed since last time you felt it was hopeless. Only the way I look at it!
Today H took the kids to school because he woke up early and then got ready and left to drive to a city 4 hours away, the city that he went to on May 10 2007. May 13th when he came back I found that powerpoint email from her to him. They had been there together. He took our new one month SUV back then and took it to have it cleaned, it was brand new, less than a month's old actually. It struck me as odd and I guess thta's why I remembred I had his password. If I had been lucky, or patient I would found out the truth because she would have sent him more "private" emails. But I asked him that night and next day they set their private account... I was so close to having a nasty surprise and probably would have done something crazy...
I feel... upset. He didnt ask me to join him. He is coming back tommorow midnight, it's my Bday tommorow.
Whatever...
K
"FIB, nothing has really changed since last time you felt it was hopeless. Only the way I look at it!"
And right there is a huge change!! So yes there has been something major that has shifted. YOU!! You set the tone, the pace. You are taking back some control.
As for your birthday, do all the wonderful things you want to do and don't waste time thinking about why he isn't there.
kat
So he left today for a city and will be away tonight AND all day tommorow.. did he say anything about your birthday?? Did he remember? Say sorry he is not around? Left you a gift? Promised to call when you wake up? ..remember the silver shoes he left you last year..
It is a bit poor and it is bound to hurt, I dont know what to suggest to make you feel better about that. Did you make any plans for tommorow, or do you have to go to work, get the kids dinner etc.. or can you go out for lunch and for the evening? I hope so. I wish I was there to eat delicious greek food and have a small gas stove cooked coffee and maybe some beers to celebrate with you, British style! Really its a shame but I hope you will see your family/gf's, although its difficult midweek I guess when they all have children too. I hope he brings you back something or gives you a kiss tommorow, even if it is midnight!..cant he leave earlier??
xxx
Kalni:
Hronia polla. Haroumena genethlia and
hiliohroni !!!!
Sagapo.
FIB
I feel... upset. He didn't ask me to join him. He is coming back tomorrow midnight, it's my Bday tomorrow.
Did you ask to go? Did you even hint that you could take time off work?
It sucks that he has jobs where he misses important days, but be careful not to assume he's not thinking about it or remembering just because he hasn't said anything yet.
Did you ever ask him when you could do dinner and dancing in celebration of your birthday?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Happy Birthday Chiquittita!!!
I hope you are having a nice birthday and the kids made a fuss of you this morning.
Love and birthday hugs Al xxx
Have a very HAPPY HAPPY Birthday K! Enjoy your day and do something fun for yourself.
I know it's already evening over there (which hopefully means you're off work and having fun!), but Happy Birthday!!!!!
