Divorcebusting.com
Hi all

I've decided it's time to come over from Newcomers since xBF and I have agreed to explore the option of getting back together.

Here's the recap:

Together 8+ years. Moved twice in three years for his career. After the move last year it felt like we were just in a rut but I assumed we'd figure out some way to get out and be fine. Not so.

Nov 08 xBF announces that he's not happy and hasn't been for the past 5 years. Two main issues are SSM (I am LD) and no common interests. I try to fix things (read SSM, go to doctor, buy lingerie, etc) and reason and talk which, surprise, does nothing. I suspect interest in coworker which of course he denies with "we're just friends." Thanksgiving I discover his EA/PA with coworker and he still denies.

Dec 08 we separate but stay in same house. I find DR and start LRT. I try to be the better option but am not good at loving detachment so come across as cold. I GAL and do 180s as best I can but not getting anywhere.

Jan 09 After a few more weeks of trying to DB I get fed up and kick him out of the house. Feels great! I decide I am done with him and make plans to move out of state to start a new life.

Feb 09 About a month after I throw him out, no contact, he makes noises about getting back together. He doesn't mention ending things with OW so I ignore him.

Mar 09 He says he is completely finished with OW (not exactly true) and writes a long letter declaring his love and desire to recommit. No action behind words so I don't believe him. We have a few serious convos that don't seem to be getting us anywhere.

I spent a long time asking myself if I really want a relationship with him. I still don't know the answer and don't think I will for a while. But when all this started I told him all I wanted was for us to explore our issues and determine if we are indeed a good match or if it would be better to go our separate ways. I thought we owed it to ourselves, each other, and our years together to do at least that. While he refused at the time, he brought it up and has asked me to do the same.

So after some serious soul searching I have agreed to explore the possibility. I'm not sure I will ever trust him again. I'm not sure I still love him. But I will try for now.

I need to spend some time reading up and getting to know the people here. I look forward to learning from your experience. I know I'm going to need all the help I can get to make it through this next part.

(FYI, I'm posting and running out of town so please don't think I'm rude if I don't respond right away. I'll be back on Monday.)

Here's a link to my last thread.
found you \:\) How's my buddy doing?
Great to find your new thread! I'm interested in seeing what the Piecers have to say!
Howdy, just dropped in to say hi!
Hi guys, thanks for stopping by. I had a great couple days out of town and got back home this afternoon.

xBF and I went out tonight. Went to a comedy club and had dinner before the show. Pretty entertaining. Then we were going to go to a dessert place but there was a huge line and it's cold and rainy so we just went back to the house and chatted. It was funny for me because I told him all about my concert experience which I never really had before because I thought my interest in the band made him uncomfortable. Or maybe I just wanted to have something that was all mine. After all, I had been going to shows long before I met xBF and it was something I had shared with my girlfriends.

Anyway, as he was leaving he leaned in for a kiss. I turned my head so he kissed my cheek and had his hands on my hips. I didn't hug him back. I didn't know what to do but it felt like too much.

Now I feel overwhelmed and guilty and unsure of everything. I feel like I should want this to work but I don't have those feelings for him and don't know if I will again. I struggle with wanting to have fun and not wanting to give the impression that everything will just go back to normal without a lot of work.

Maybe I'm expecting too much of him and myself. Maybe I'm just overtired.
Hey Pearl,

Interesting turn of events for you. Remember, you have to re-build - s l o w l y. You're becoming friends all over again - and there will be many awkward "goodnight" moments - to kiss or not to kiss? You know that's happened to all of us on first dates!

If you focus on having fun the "work" will happen naturally IMHO.

Like you, I've changed forums. Find me now in MLC.

Stay strong!
Today I still felt bad about last night so I called xBF and invited him over for dinner and TV catch up. (We used to watch a few shows religiously that we've both dropped since all this started.)

I figured he hasn't been eating home cooked meals since I did all the cooking, and actually neither have I because I don't really enjoy cooking and prefer the ease of frozen dinners. Thought it would be nice to cook something but didn't go overboard with anything fancy or his favorite. He showed up with flowers, nice gesture. Food was still cooking so we hung out in the kitchen for a while and chatted. Took dinner downstairs and watched a couple episodes of Lost and The Office. Again, comfortable just hanging out. Not much chit chat and no R talk.

When he left I walked him to the door, he thanked me for inviting him over and for the meal. He didn't go in for the kiss this time, just an awkward half hug. So I hugged him, really hugged him, for the first time in months.

He'll be out of town for business for most of the week so plenty of time for my GAL activities and an emotional break. The past couple days have been a little intense for me so I could use the down time.
That sounds real nice, Pearl. Hugs can be more therapeutic than kisses sometimes. I like that he brought you flowers.

Puppy
{{{Pearl}}}} Sorry it took me so long to get over here!! Sounds like a good weekend and I'm sure he appreciated you calling and the hug and GO him..flowers \:D

Tawnya
ALL RIGHT PEARL!

Looks like ACTIONS to me!! \:\)

I agree with Silver: Just concentrate on having fun and the "work" will happen naturally. You both learned a lot about each other during this period and now is the time to rebuild the R using the knowledge gained. Just try to enjoy each moment as it is, without too much thinking. I am happy for you!
Well, I'm pissed off today. Didn't hear anything from xBF yesterday. Called around 10 pm his time (he's out of town for work) and no answer. Do I really think he's out cheating? No. But only because he's out of town and I don't think he brought xOW with him.

He did email this morning saying that he played in a poker tournament at a local casino.

This is a bad habit that cannot be started. I need more communication from him, not less. And he needs to communicate to me who/what/when/where beforehand, not the following day.

So I stewed about it for most of the day wondering if I should bring it up now via email or wait until we can talk over the phone or in person. I opted for email to get it off my chest now. Said I was upset with his lack of communication and explained that not knowing where he is and not being in contact leads me to think he is hiding something from me. Also said we need to put a transparency plan in place as soon as possible but we can discuss it when he has time. Ended the email with some chat so the entire message wasn't angry.
Good for you Pearl, but I wonder, does he even know what a transparency plan is?
Probably not. Because he hasn't done any reading or anything else to improve himself or the relationship. Another thing I'm not happy about. So either he will Google it or ask me what it is. Or he'll just be angry that I'm upset. Who knows.

Coincidentally the counselor we saw before emailed me today to check in. Another thing he hasn't done yet, set up counseling.

I'm just in a pissy mood today. Hopefully I will have calmed down by the time I talk to xBF.
Hi Pearl,

Glad I found you - lots of movement in your sitch. Let us know when you talk to xbf.
Hi davidswife, thanks for following me over here!

xBF emailed late last night when he got back from baseball game. Started with chat about the game, then asked if I'm around this weekend to "get together and talk about a plan to put in place." Went on to tell me his plans for tonight.

So I replied that I'll be around Sunday and that I appreciate him checking in. We exchanged a few more messages about the baseball team and that was it.

I'm still struggling with knowing how much I should expect him to do on his own. I don't want to have to be a nag or mother telling him what to do. I don't want him unless he really wants to be with me. Otherwise it's not good for either one of us.
Pearl,

I think you just need to CHILL, and let him come to you. He's probably feeling like he can't win with you right now, at least that's what's coming thru in your posts. Like you're just DARING him to fail or something.

Not a criticism -- just an observation, and a suggestion.

Puppy
An accurate observation Puppy. I'm just antsy. I feel like I've been in limbo for so long that now that we've made a decision we should both be acting on it and moving forward.

Will take a chill pill, or in my case, a glass of wine. \:D
Pearl,

What was that Washington State (affordable!) one you recommended to me before? I think it was Columbia Crest something-or-other, and I tried a cheap one of theirs a couple of weeks ago (just for you!), but didn't like it at all, and went right back to my Aussie stuff.

Trying to keep an open mind,

Puppy
Columbia Crest. Skip the Two Vines, that's the cheapest stuff. Try the Grand Estates or Horse Heaven Hills (H3). The Reserve tier is great but on the spendy side. I don't drink Chard so I can't speak to that, but the merlot is great IMHO and the cab is pretty good. Haven't had the syrah in a while so I don't really remember it.

If you're interested in organic (cheap) wine, try Snoqualmie "Naked" wines. They're better for riesling and gewurztraminer.
I'll give it a try -- thanks Pearl!
I like wine too! Thanks for the suggestions!

I agree with Puppy on the chill pill. I understand that you feel like moving forward now that you both have made that decision, but I think you need to let him do the majority of the driving (for now at least). You don't want him to be someone he's not. Go back to having fun together and don't get all wound up because he didn't contact you one day. I think you need to go back to detaching a little again instead of jumping completely in.
Sam, you (and Puppy) have hit the nail on the head. I'm an all or nothing type of gal emotionally speaking. Well, in a lot of things actually. I had a REALLY hard time detaching and never was able to accomplish it. When I decided I was done, I was done and that was it. Now it would come in handy but I still don't know how to do it.

I was talking to Jon earlier tonight and I was overcome with another wave of doubt and uncertainty about what I want. This not knowing is killing me. I just wish I was leaning one way or the other.

Jon gave me a talking to and said I need to fish or cut bait: either commit to working on the relationship or start packing and leave. I'm just paralyzed with indecision. So we thought maybe a cooling off/wait and see period would be a good idea.

Which is what you guys have already said. I know.

But I think I will talk to xBF about starting counseling as soon as possible. We can still hang out and do fun things but I really need to start talking about all this stuff with him and I just don't think we can do it on our own.
After all that personal angst, I feel like a complete fool.

I checked xBF's email and found a message from OW:

Gosh it's hard to believe it's been two weeks since I saw you...hope you're doing well \:\)

Two weeks?? Two weeks ago is when he was telling me he was afraid I had already decided I was done with tears in his eyes. And it was a week or two before that when I told him that NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. If I found out about one instance I would be done, no questions asked.

I'm furious, hurt, sad, angry. It was all I could do to not call him in the middle of the night and start yelling. The only way I stopped myself is by remembering that there's a trigger in the settlement that gives me two months to get out of the house after a break up. So now I have to bide my time until I'm ready to move. At least I'm moving back into numb.

Well, I got the sign to push me over to one side.
Pearl,

This is a longshot, but did you check his SENT items? Could OW possibly be trapping him, (or xBF, trapping you?) knowing you might be hacking his e-mail?

Just wondering if maybe he COULD have replied to her "Actually, I think it's been longer than that . . . " or something.

It just seems really weird to me the way it's phrased so specifically.
I did check the sent messages. He didn't reply to her message, just deleted it this morning. But he also didn't tell me about it and he called me last night after he read the email.
From a guy's POV, he probably didn't see it as anything major. Sorry that's just the way our mind's work. Just the fact that he hasn't contacted her is a good sign.

In terms of piecing, you're going to have to understand that it's going to take awhile for both of you to establish trust one another. Don't let one act of forgetfulness or thoughtlessness undermine the larger picture.

If both of you are really serious about piecing, you're both going to have to relax your guard (just a little) to gain trust in one another again.
Thanks for stopping by stuck.

My problem is that the one thing I told him was not negotiable was no contact. Period. And yet he saw her. I can't start out piecing with him lying to me. That just won't work for me. If I am expected to just look the other way because it's too hard for him then I am not cut out for this.
Hate to say it, but if you don't cut him a little of slack and vice versa, you're not going to successfully piece.

I think if you were to confront him with this message and he were to clarify what happened, you wouldn't believe him no matter what he says.

"If I am expected to just look the other way because it's too hard for him then I am not cut out for this."

You'll definitely not be looking the other way. Our sitchs are such that we get paranoid about our Ss. Take me for example. My W had a strong EA with her boss. Strong enough to want to leave our M and kids for this married guy twice her age. Today she doesn't work directly with him, but still sees him everyday.

Now she has told me that she has not feelings for him. I know that's not true because quite frankly that's not human. We don't automatically forget those things. But do I trust her when she says she keeps it professional and doesn't do the things she did before with him at work? Absolutely until I discover otherwise. I have detached enough that I trust and love her, but if I find any indiscretion, she's going to find her ass on the street.

My W has NEVER apologized for what she did and not shown any remorse. But her actions have spoken louder than words.

Your exBF has actually said he's going to give it a chance which is way more than alot of our WASs have done. Give it a chance.

The paranoid feelings don't go away quickly. And trust is something that is earned definitely. You can try easing up a little and see what happens. Just my 2 cents. : )
Ah, that's the difference. xBF is all talk and no action, your W is action and no talk. I have been saying all along that I am looking for actions from xBF to prove to me that he is serious about trying to work through this. His action was to see OW and not tell me.

So stuck, what am I supposed to do with this knowledge that he lied to me and continues to see her? I know she is not the root of our problems, but I have learned through all this that it is a dealbreaker for me.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
From a guy's POV, he probably didn't see it as anything major. Sorry that's just the way our mind's work.

And fwiw, I don't buy this for one second. I'm very well aware of the differences in men and women's communication styles. Hell, I was a communications major! So that's why I stated very clearly what I expected. He just thinks I won't find out. And that's a load of crap.
Well no offense but you are a girl. : )

And really sometimes guys just don't get it. That's why the majority of us are here.

Honestly, I don't think you're the type of gal that can hold it in. So I would ASK him about her. Not accuse or yell or confront. But talk to him about it.

Just tell him you want to set your mind at ease and wanted to know if he had been in contact with the OW. Kind of give him the benefit of the doubt sort of thing.

If you go in with all guns blazing he's going to backpedal, get all frazzled and not know which way is up.
Um, but don't most of the guys here want their girls back? So we can't be all bad! ;\)

I can't express how frustrating it is to calmly and clearly state what I want and expect, then say something to the effect of "no, this isn't woman-speak, this is REALLY what I want and expect," only to have him do the opposite with the excuse, "oh, I didn't think you meant it."

I'm tired of the excuses because I know the men here are ready, willing and able to do the work necessary to rebuild their Rs. xBF can't just chalk everything up to being a "guy thing" when I know not all guys are like that.

I cannot spend the rest of my life like this. I think it was Sam that said it's like looking for a corner in a round room. Argh!
Journal:

I really hate him right now. Coming home from a late movie and just broke down in the car. I will never fully trust someone again. Not a man, not myself, not anyone. And it's because of his betrayal. I hate him for that. I don't think I will ever forgive him for that.

I was bawling my head off in the darkness of the house when I realized there was blood all over my hands. Nothing like a nose bleed to stop a good cry. Good thing too because I'm pretty sure I was scaring the cats.

Now I feel a little emptier inside. Every day a little emptier. Soon there will be nothing left and I will just be a shell going through the motions.
Pearl, this is why I encourage people to decide AHEAD of time how many (IF any) backslides they're going to accept from the FWAS. Once, but only if self-confessed . . . Once, even if YOU find out . . . twice . . . etc.

Because once it happens, you're too emotional to make good decisions. This way, it just "kicks in," whatever it is.

If he said he was no-contact 3 weeks ago, and instead it was TWO weeks ago, and he's living up to that, then I think you might be overblowing this.

I'm curious, was changing his e-mail address part of the agreed no-contact/transparency plan? Or did he just agree to no-contact, and you guys never DID do a transparency plan?

Puppy
Puppy, we didn't do a transparency plan yet. We are supposed to do that this weekend. But right now I don't see the point if he's already lied to me. I think it's crap that he's going to use "Well, I didn't know" or "I didn't realize that's what you meant" as an excuse to do whatever he wants when he damn well knows what I expect.

And he can't change his email, it's his work account. I'm waiting to see if he confesses to having the "secret" email account.

At this point I want him to send the no contact letter that tells OW he's back with me because he truly loves me and wants us to be together, to totally blow her off. Then I'll leave when I'm ready. Yes I realize this is a crappy thing to do and not the right thing to do but I don't care anymore.
OK then.
What is this letter of which you speak? Why hasn't it been sent already? Is this something YOU thought of, or something you and xBF have discussed?

I tend to agree with Puppy - if SHE saw HIM in some capacity, ran into him at the grocery store, etc, and spoke with him, then she may be baiting him.

Do you know the details of THEIR breakup? Does she still like him, and he dumped her?

Just trying to look at the situation from every angle, and not make excuses for him. Your journal above describes exactly how much you still care for him.

I might have told you that Tawnya's mom (a counselor) told her that the opposite of love is not hate/anger - it is apathy. Hate and anger are very intense expressions of passionate feelings toward someone.

This is exactly why I suggested you fish/cut bait - and if you stayed you give 100%, and then you self-described as an all or nothing person. So, either, trust him - and believe that a random email from this woman doesn't mean anything, or get packing!

Also, don't ever forget that even when someone decides to do the right thing, it isn't always easy. He may have realized that he had feelings for you, and didn't want to lose you, but it doesn't mean that it's easy.

I "understand" my W's affair. If she is with me, she has to learn to trust again, do the right thing, deal with the past, be responsible, face up to her children, face up to leaving 28 years of God and faith and running the opposite way, and admit to doing wrong.
-- OR --
She can be with OM the atheist - who lives a long ways away, can just come in, say pretty things that make her feel good, and leave. She doesn't have any responsibilities to him, etc.

My W has almost zero respect from me - I love her dearly, but she has attacked this family, my children, our family morals, more stuff than I can list. BUT if she was woman enough to do what I listed above, she would instantly regain my respect.

THAT'S why I would give her another chance. If he contacted her, I would ask her if she responded, and if she didn't, I'd say OK.

Here is the scoop: If he's lying, and still contacting her, you will find out. He says he isn't. If you are going to torture yourself, and cry yourself into a nose-bleed, then just go. Now.

Otherwise, let it go. Hating him does nothing for you. Getting revenge will NOT make you feel better (oh, maybe for 5 minutes).

I fought those feelings for a long time, and none of them every did anything. I have spoken very angrily to W about stuff she has said to our kids, and it has accomplished nothing except to make her worse.

When I found peace is when I can look back at the amazing times we had with fondness and happiness. I have loved and do love W more than I ever thought was possible, and I'm happy with that. Here is a quote from the movie The Notebook:
"I am nothing special; just a common man with common thoughts, and I've led a common life. There are no monuments dedicated to me and my name will soon be forgotten. But in one respect I have succeeded as gloriously as anyone who's ever lived: I've loved another with all my heart and soul; and to me, this has always been enough."

Cheesy, romantic, bleah. \:\) But, Pearl, like I said, make this about YOU! If you love him, and he betrays you, that's his problem! If you make a beautiful painting, and someone ruins it, it sucks, but it doesn't take away from the fact that you are an amazing artist.

If you can love with a heart of forgiveness, true love, understanding, and grace - that's beautiful, like you. If he doesn't get that, or betrays that, it doesn't change anything about you! It just shows that he's an idiot, and San Fransisco just upped its population by 1!

I'm not proof-reading this, and it came off the top of my head, so for what it's worth...
HI Pearl,

How's my friend? That's retorical because I have read and caught up with your posts.... also i really don't even know what retorical means or if I spelled it right \:\)

One thing.... I see where she said in an email that she saw him two weeks ago. I may have missed something but that is her talking and her perception. I have seen my wife 4 times in the last week but i am not with her. If she is pursuing him then it is easy to see an email stating "I can't believe it's been two weeks since I last saw you". She may have seen him at the drinking fountain. You may OR may not be reading too much into this email. I would be more interested in whether he responded or not. If it is a company email he can't control whether she emails him. AND guys are wimps (I was thinking about another word I can't use here). If he wants to work things out with you. You are ready to move one then you are in the power position. DO YOU REALIZE how much crap I took from my wife and how much I bit my tounge when I was trying to get back together with her? There is a chance he is just simply scared to tell you she contacted him. You have to think about him being in the same position now that you were in when he first told you he was out of the relationship.

Now that said be careful!

The other thing is ....please do not feel like you can never trust another person. Do you realize how many people out completely put their soul into a relationship? Look at yourself in the mirror and answer the question if you would have ever done this to another human being that you were totally commited to and loved. Even if you fell out of love with that person would you have just sat around until you found someone else that met your needs and then crapped all over that person?? I think not. I have read your post and you are a special person. Do you realize how many special people are out there?

Look at the commitment that people like Puppy, MsM, and all the others have to their spouses. There are special people out there...people you can count on being there when you need them. And quite frankly your BF may be one now that he has decided you are what he wants. There is also he chance he just is going through the "I can't have her" phase. You will realize this as you spend more time together.

I married a woman that left me and i am convinced wants away from the rsponsibility of being a parent as much as she wants away from me. I want to believe if I married 100 women only about 20 of them would have put me through what I have gone through. The other 80 would have appreciated me.

stay positive!!!!!!!!!!!
Sheesh, I knew this would be a roller coaster but I still don't like them. I have a queasy stomach. I'd love to be able to chalk some of my emotions up to hormones (a woman's prerogative!) but alas, I think it's probably just the sitch.

Went out with xBF last night. Took me to dinner at an Italian restaurant where a coworker was playing in a jazz band. Shows thought because he's not fond of pasta or jazz and I am. We had a nice dinner, talked, laughed. Then we went back to the house to talk.

Why do I always end up crying when we talk these days? In the beginning I could have a calm conversation sans tears. Now it seems that as soon as we start so do the waterworks.

I asked if he was still seeing OW. He said no. Since when? Since he told me he was done, about four weeks ago. Is that the last time he saw her? No. When was that? About two and a half weeks ago? So why the discrepancy? He had to tell her to stop contacting him. Has she stopped? No. When was the last time? Last week he got an email. So why didn't he tell me about this? No answer.

I told him I need him to write her a letter telling her that he is with me because he loves me and wants to be with me, not out of guilt or a sense of duty. And that there will be no further contact. He said fine, he's already blocked her number from his cell phone.

Went on to tell him that I hate that I spend even one minute thinking about her because I don't want to give her the power to affect me. But that's the way it is right now.

We discussed other transparency things like access to his email accounts, all of them. He knew I was talking about the "secret" account and said he hasn't used it in months. But he opened it to talk to her. No, he's had it for years and years just didn't use it. Also his phone records and I'd like to have copies of monthly statements for his work line and Blackberry. He said he will look into it.

There's more but it's late and I'm nodding off.
Pearl,

I gotta say, he is saying (and even doing) all the right things here. He's given a LOT. Whether or not he can STICK with it, obviously remains to be seen, but it certainly sounds like he's not only trying, but he's being honest with you as well.

Puppy
Pearl,

I second PDT. Your BF has been totally honest with you which is alot more than 95% of our spouses on here. Learn to trust him again. Just take it a day at a time.
All in all, great news in your sitch.
Thanks for sticking with me stuck, Puppy, Jon and Kenn. Hmm, have I done something to offend the women?

Trying to remember more from Sat night's big convo. I asked about starting counseling. He said he didn't know I was ready to start but if so then he'll start looking for counselors.

He feels frustrated because he's trying and doesn't feel like I'm acknowledging it or I don't think it's enough. So I told him that I do know he's trying but it isn't enough for me and I don't know if it will ever be enough. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the truth. I still don't know if I can or will ever get past this.

I told him I don't think he truly understands how hard this is for me. He is asking me to risk going through the worst time in my life again by trusting him and being with him. It is going to take time and effort.

So that was about all we could handle for one night.

Sunday I texted and asked if he wanted to go check out some open houses with me. We did that in the afternoon then hung out at the house and watched some tv. At one point I did lean against him while we were sitting on the sofa. It was nice.

Last night he came over to pick up some pretzels I baked. I thought he would just take them and go but he wanted to eat one for dinner right away. We ended up watching a couple more episodes of Lost. I wonder if we're spending too much time together now but I would have just watched tv or a movie tonight anyway and we just hung out, no R talk.

Well, a little bit of R talk. I asked who was on the volleyball team he wants to join this summer. J (coworker) and C (his gf) who I've met before and a female friend of C's. Do I need to meet her? He laughed and said I can if I want to but she's in her 40s. So what does that have to do with anything? And she has a boyfriend. Apparently that doesn't matter. Oops, yes, I did say that out loud. A pained look flashed across his face but he still smiled. Before he left he wrote down all his email and phone passwords for me.

Today he asked if he can come by tonight after my dance classes and drop off the letter to OW.

Yes, he seems to be saying and doing all the right things. It's good but I've been disappointed by him so much lately that I don't trust it to continue like this. I guess only time will tell.
You notice that as you give guidance, he jumps right in? I told you! \:\)

Seriously, he is taking some pretty big drastic steps - they may be at your nudging, but he's doing it. I wonder sometimes if you were this clear with him before? Maybe this is HOW he expresses how much he cares for you?

Anyway, I think the letter deserves a reward - maybe a quick hug or something. If that's too much, how about CINNAMON pretzels, mmmmmm? Yes, I know what he did, but we're looking forward, because looking backward doesn't accomplish anything except to make you run into stuff.

See ya!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Thanks for sticking with me stuck, Puppy, Jon and Kenn.


those guys are giving great advice... I am just the sarcastic humor \:\)

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Hmm, have I done something to offend the women?
They just haven't found you yet or they are confused by the "guy" mentality and are sitting on the sidelines taking notes... It's a Mars thing

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I asked about starting counseling. He said he didn't know I was ready to start but if so then he'll start looking for counselors.


this is a Mars thing... bet you thought you had made it very clear? He is acting out while you are thinking out. Lets assume he is committed and sincerely regets what he did... now he is back in guy mode where if you don't spell it out ..he will not get it. No kidding ... yo have to be very careful not to fall into that trap of "you should have known what I meant"

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
He feels frustrated because he's trying and doesn't feel like I'm acknowledging it or I don't think it's enough. So I told him that I do know he's trying but it isn't enough for me and I don't know if it will ever be enough. I don't want to sound harsh but that's the truth. I still don't know if I can or will ever get past this.


this is key PH.... you need to get pay attention to some of the advice from people who have gotten back together. Friend of mine is going through this right now. Power shift, and feeling shift. Seriously think about how long you took workig to get him back. do you think it will take less time to let him work backinto your heart? You need to give him that time. You decided to try and get him back, you decided to let him come back and now you have to decide to give it time. All the reasons and feelings that made you want him in the past are there, they are now jsut in the back ground because his is backand you can focus on other feeling instead of the loss.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr

I told him I don't think he truly understands how hard this is for me.
Probably not.... But how did you feel when he left the first time? If he had said the same thing about you, would you hve said no I really do. I have realized the things I did wrong and want a second chance???????
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
It is going to take time and effort.
yes it is! and this is where keeping a journal is just as important as it was during the seperation. Write down how you feel or the fun times each day or week. and then after a few weeks look back. If the fun times and intimate time are increasing then you are headed in the right direction. Just like when you first started dating \:\)
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
At one point I did lean against him while we were sitting on the sofa. It was nice.


uh oh!!!!! she is starting to enjoy him again hummmm????

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
He laughed and said I can if I want to but she's in her 40s.


what the H@#$ does that mean???? I don't like him already!!!!!!

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
So what does that have to do with anything? And she has a boyfriend.
\:\)

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Before he left he wrote down all his email and phone passwords for me.
nice

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Today he asked if he can come by tonight after my dance classes and drop off the letter to OW.
double nice

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Yes, he seems to be saying and doing all the right things.
ya think LOL!

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
It's good but I've been disappointed by him so much lately that I don't trust it to continue like this. I guess only time will tell.
you know PH.... so could the next three guys you date. The unfortunate reality of life is that 60% of people have interludes (or whatever you want to call them). You can take a shot on a guy that you know you have fun and are compatible with (8 years) if you believe that he is remoseful and you have both made the necessary changes OR you can go out and take a shot on the next guy you meet. You are right ... there are a lot of guys on this site that got it and made changes... but count the number of guys you see and then look at the statistics that 50% of marrages end in divorce. The majority of guys are just moving on and into the next relationship. Life is a crap shoot, your feelings for him will come back if you leave the door open, your trust will come back over time and if it doesn't work out - your friends will always be here for you and will always respect you for your committment!!!!!!

Oh and tell your boyfriend he is a punk for making fun of people over 40 LOL!
Jon, you're still wanting your own batch of pretzels, huh? Found out they're not nearly as good the next day. Bummer. But if you're ever out this way I promise I'll make some for you.

Well, no, I didn't spell everything out for him before because I wanted him to take some initiative. I still feel like if I give him a checklist that's all he's going to do, the bare minimum. I want to know that he's really invested in the process. But then I set myself up for disappointment because he doesn't do anything. As my best friend said he needs to try to get an 'A' for effort, even if that's just asking me what I want/need. It's hard to find the balance.

And I am giving him a hug every day when he leaves.
Kenn, where to start? \:\)

I do really try to spell everything out very clearly. And he admits that I have told him the same thing several times but he "just didn't think that's what I meant." Sigh. Since I told him I am finished repeating myself and I will not go over things again he has been much better about doing things. Plus I did give him a specific list for the transparency plan and he is checking those things off one by one.

Originally Posted By: Kenn
You decided to try and get him back, you decided to let him come back and now you have to decide to give it time.
At first I wanted him back, but then I only tried to get him back to be able to be in control and be the one to do the leaving. I never thought I would ever really give him another chance. And I only agreed to that out of guilt and a sense of duty. Nothing more.

Originally Posted By: Kenn
All the reasons and feelings that made you want him in the past are there, they are now jsut in the back ground because his is backand you can focus on other feeling instead of the loss.
Maybe. I just think this is a bigger obstacle than either of us imagined it would be. One of my girlfriends asked me months ago, when I told her about DBing, how would I ever get over it and trust him again. I told her I couldn't think about it then and would just stay in the moment and cross that bridge when I came to it. Now I'm looking at the bridge and discovering I may be afraid of heights so it might be better to just change my route.

But you're right, I did like being near him the other day. I just wonder if it's because it's what I want or because it's familiar.

Originally Posted By: Kenn
You can take a shot on a guy that you know you have fun and are compatible with (8 years) if you believe that he is remoseful and you have both made the necessary changes OR you can go out and take a shot on the next guy you meet.
My problem with this is that I know xBF is a cheater. I can never un-know that. With someone new I wouldn't assume that he's a cheater because it's a clean slate. True the chances are good that something like this might happen again but at least I would know more about myself and what I can do to prevent it from happening. Sometimes a fresh start sounds like a much better idea.

Originally Posted By: Kenn
Oh and tell your boyfriend he is a punk for making fun of people over 40 LOL!
The funny thing is that I am older than him so I know that he doesn't have a problem with older women. So why would he think that just because she's 40ish it means he obviously wouldn't be interested? Makes no sense. OW is not physically his type at all (well, what he has always professed was his type) and I am way hotter than her so yes, I am going to be wary of any new woman in his life.
Question:

Tonight is the last day of bowling league. Long time readers will remember that xBF and OW were in the league together but on different teams. I insisted that he quit before I would consider giving him another chance and he did quit. However I just found out that he didn't exactly quit, he just started making excuses for not going.

Anwyay, he told me that he is playing in a poker tourney at his apartment complex tonight and asked if I wanted to come over and watch. I declined and explained that I have a ticket for a concert tonight. He didn't seem phased by my explanation and we chatted about the show I'm seeing.

I'm wondering if I should ask him if it's important that I come over and spend the evening with him if it's going to be hard emotionally (OW has asked if he is coming to bowling because she wants an explanation of what went wrong in their R so she can have closure. ).

On one hand I want to be supportive. On the other hand, I do already have (not cheap) plans. We have spent time together the past three days. I do want to maintain some distance but not appear cold.

And he did bring the letter over last night. It says he is choosing to be with me for love and not out of duty or guilt; he does not want and will not respond to any future contact from her; and he will not keep anything from me including the contents of this letter. Printed and signed it in front of me and sealed the envelope, left it for me to mail.
Go be with him.
PH,

I am a girl.... I see your new to Piecing.

My take on a few things. Shots across the bow don't help reconciling.

He feels like poop, you don't need to help him out there.. Trust me he fathoms very well what he did to you. Do you want him to pay for that.... what does that look like?

He is taking the first big steps here. There needs to be some positive acknowledgement on your part.

I haven't followed your other threads, so I am not sure what your wanting to do here. Do you want to reconcile? Are you in or out?

Also, about the trust thing. I asked my IC last year during this process how I could ever trust again. Her answer is thing of it starting out as a little circle.... you see the phone records nothing is there .... that's a little circle of trust that's complete. He gives you all pass words another little circle complete. They build on each other. The circle of trust becomes bigger over time.

This is not an easy road and you two need couseling to figure out why and maybe one to help you deal with your feelings about it all. I know it helped me be able to get another persons point of view... and when H came back to my suprise my IC often stuck up for him and his actions.

She said if he had come back with no transparency, no remorse, or things of that nature.... he wasn't sincere in his attempt. Honestly, what else could BF be doing at this point? He is trying... is that what you want?

I am almost a year from my middle of the night phone call from H who was ready but tentative (because he knew it would be hard on me, to reconcile) for the most part ... the year has been great... there were stumbles.....on both of our parts but here we are.

Oh... I would say "He11, to the No" about seeing OW for closure.... that would be a deal breaker for me. How do you know about that?

As far as concert VS. poker night... I would do which ever one I felt like doing.

Best of Luck!
I would go to him. So far he's done everything you've asked him to do so you should throw him a bone.

As far as talking to the OW, maybe you should have him talk to her so that she's not left hanging and he's got a sense of closure as well. That's gonna require you to do some heavy duty trusting, but I think this would be a great test.
Hi sandycay, thanks for stopping by. (BTW, I grew up in Edmonds/Lynnwood!)

I have started to acknowledge his efforts. I sent him an email where I, among other things, listed as many things I could think of that he's done in the name of reconciliation. I also have invited him to do things with me and give him a hug every time we see each other.

Am I in or out? Still unsure but I think I have reached the decision that I need to try to be all in and see what happens from there.

Thanks for the visual on the trust issue. I was discussing this with Jon today and I do think the transparency plan will help get the ball rolling in this area.

I was frustrated with his lack of effort on the big things: transparency plan, setting up counseling, and working on improving himself. I feel like I am still the one doing the heavy lifting here and I'm not 100% sure I even want to be here. Since he's the one who wants reconciliation he should be the one taking steps to move in that direction.

I did just take matters in my own hands and spell out exactly what I wanted in the transparency plan. And he has said he will start searching for a counselor. After I threw down my pile of self-help books on getting through an affair he did take one home with him to read. But in all these things I am still the one taking the lead. I do not want to nag or drag him through the process. If he doesn't start showing some initiative I cannot believe that this is truly what he wants.

He knows that my stance re: OW is absolutely no contact. Period. The next time is the last time. I know about it because she sent him an email on Monday asking why he wasn't responding to her attempts at contact. It really sounds pathetic. And I am happy knowing that she's not going to get what she wants. Karma.

I called xBF this morning and asked if he wanted me to spend the evening with him. He wanted to know why because he knows I have the concert ticket. I awkwardly explained that if it was going to be difficult for him knowing it's the last night of bowling then I would be there for him. He just laughed and said no, he's going to be focused on winning the poker tourney so I should go to the concert but thanks for asking.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
maybe you should have him talk to her so that she's not left hanging and he's got a sense of closure as well.
He did see her about 2.5 weeks ago to end things with her but apparently that's not enough for her.

He wrote the letter I requested telling her that it is over between them, he has chosen me out of love and telling her to end all contact because he will not respond. I'm putting it in the mail today.

Any further contact with OW is a deal breaker.
Originally Posted By: stuck808


As far as talking to the OW, maybe you should have him talk to her so that she's not left hanging and he's got a sense of closure as well. That's gonna require you to do some heavy duty trusting, but I think this would be a great test.


I strongly disagree with this. All it will do is set his withdrawal "clock" back at 0:00.

The no-contact letter is her "closure."

Puppy
Agreed Puppy. No contact, no way.
Totally agree... he already told her... now he wrote her.... now she's a stalker.

My H OW tried to email him to the secret email... which I had forgotten about till about a month later.... 8 letters... none where open the email. I read them all and it was kinda funny, sad and pathetic but I knew by her tone there had been NC too.

Look PH you've been reading here for months about how to save a relationship etc.... he is new to the plan. he doesn't understand the verbage... he's a baby with this yet... you have to lead the way....

BTW... I gave my H 1 book after he came back called "after the affair" ... he never read it... I took at the time he wasn't really trying but that was not the truth.... it still sits in the nightstand and he hasn't read it but has done other things to show he was all in. So don't hang your hat on what YOU would do or need... his are different from yours.
I've asked him to shut down the "secret" email and he is willing to do that but it's kind of a hassle to delete it. He did give me the password and I've set up blocks for her email addresses so I'm fine with that.

I'm not hung up on him reading a book or two, the issue is that he isn't doing anything to improve the sitch as far as I know. And I have told him this is my perception and asked him to tell me what he's doing to combat that perception if it's false, but he really hasn't done anything other than planning dates and spending time with me. And I think the book(s) would be right up his alley because he's an avid reader whereas I am not a reader at all. Books or couseling, I would be happy with either right now as a first step.

And I will try harder to keep in mind that he will process things differently and allow him to do so.
Ah, I missed the part where he already talked to her about calling it quits.

In that case, don't have him talk to her. My bad.

Right now she's playing the role of the LBS.
Pearl,

You haven't offended the women!

Did you decide what you're doing tonight?
Thanks davidswife! \:D

Need to hop in the shower right now then going to the concert. xBF will be fine playing in his poker tourney and wants me to go. And I really want to go, I've been looking forward to it!
I love Karma \:\) She's awesome!
Quick update:

Went to the concert, it was a blast. xBF texted when he was done with casino night. I called back when the show was over and we talked while I drove home. One of the prizes he won was tickets to a rugby game so he asked if I want to go in two weeks.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Kiss off letter to OW went in the mail yesterday. The bad part of that is now I have her address. It's pretty close to our house (which I knew) but not on my way anywhere. I don't have any plans to stalk her but I just think I was better off without that particular piece of info. Now I know where they were shacked up for a month. Blech.
Wow pearl! A LOT has happened!

I see a LOT of positive actions from xBF (is he BF again? ;\) or not yet?)
He may not cover all the things you need from him right now, but I think he's making a pretty big effort to meet you in your needs. About the earlier email saying it had been 2 weeks since OW saw him, I agree with others that you may have been reading too much into it. Seeing could be as simple as she ran into him at a store or something, it doesn't necessarily mean that they planned a meeting. I know it's hard not to jump to conclusions in this kind of sitch, but I think you need to make an effort to take things literally at this point. You wouldn't be worried about an email like this if you weren't in this sitch, right?

I especially think highly of his letter to OW and the fact that he wrote it, let you read it and then left it for you to mail. How much more transparent can it get? That is HUGE!

I think you need to cut him some slack as far as meeting all your demands right now. It's easy to become impatient when things seem to go in the right direction, but you have to. He's learning how to meet your needs, isn't that what you would want from a R? It's because something was missing before that you ended up in this sitch. Like was said earlier, he's new at this right now, give him some time to learn and keep your expectations low. It avoids disapointment that will frustrate you.
My experience... the less you know about that chit the better.... it sucks... that part....

but it's like child birth..... if we all remembered the pain we would never do it again.....

The pain does lessen, not as gut wrentching and you won't think about it as much.

When we first got back together it was on my brain about 95 percent of my waking hours..... I would say it's down to about 5 percent the thoughts are less intense and are here and gone.

It takes time to stop dwelling on it. Sometimes it would seem like I would get stuck into some kind of obsessive thougths about but being aware of that helps and know that you just have to wait it out and keep moving forward.... that was nice that he text you.... his way of checking in .... another circle made!
My experience... the less you know about that chit the better.... it sucks... that part....

but it's like child birth..... if we all remembered the pain we would never do it again.....

The pain does lessen, not as gut wrentching and you won't think about it as much.

When we first got back together it was on my brain about 95 percent of my waking hours..... I would say it's down to about 5 percent the thoughts are less intense and are here and gone.

It takes time to stop dwelling on it. Sometimes it would seem like I would get stuck into some kind of obsessive thougths about but being aware of that helps and know that you just have to wait it out and keep moving forward.... that was nice that he text you.... his way of checking in .... another circle made!
He is still xBF. We broke up and as far as I'm concerned we are not in a R that I would call him my BF. I have no idea what we are but I'm not comfortable saying we are back together.

I was not overreacting to meeting between xBF and OW 2.5 weeks ago. No, they didn't just run into each other. Yes, it was planned. He says it was to tell her it was over and leave him alone. But he was deliberately hiding it from me. So I have no proof that what he says is true. I have counted it as his one mulligan and I have said in no uncertain terms that if he ever sees her again it will be over with us.

And yes, I would be worried about an email like that before all this crap happened. In fact I was worried about OW before she was OW. I knew in my gut that she was bad news but xBF totally pooh-poohed that idea. When the sh!t hit the fan I asked if there was someone else with her specifically in mind. Oh no, we're just friends. Pffft. Score one for woman's intuition.

It's good that he wrote the letter but I'm not overjoyed. Because he didn't write it, I wrote it. He just copied what I told him I'd like it to convey. So yes he did it, but it feels like he just checked off that box without putting any thought into it and I don't know if he truly believes in what was written.

I know everyone here thinks I need to ease up on him. But it's just not going to happen. Until I feel a little bit secure I will hold him to high standards. What's the point of letting things slide now? To set a low bar for future behavior? Now is the time that he should be on his best behavior and trying his hardest because we all know that when we get more comfortable we tend to let things slide.

I have cut him all the slack I can. Any more and I will feel like a doormat. He cheated on me, the one thing I have always maintained is unacceptable. I am stretching myself to the limits to even allow for the possibility of reconciliation.

At this point I am the WAS and he needs to work on attracting me back. Am I expecting perfection? Nope. Are my expectations high? Yep. Do I think they're unattainable? Not at all. It's up to him to decide if he's willing to man up and do what it takes.
I think the point of cutting him some slack is because you might have come across as more of a mom than a GF. Let's face it, the two of you aren't M and if he can't be comfortable doing things independently without you looking over his shoulder, things aren't going to work out well in the end.

"He just copied what I told him I'd like it to convey."

Here's an example. You said he only copied it, but only because you wanted him to say how you felt he should feel. That's not going to work. He's got to have the chance to say and do things the way he wants and needs to. If not, little resentments are going to build and he's going to jump to the OW because she's not going to put any demands on him or at least not as strict.

Just my 2 cents.

Glad you had a great time at the concert. : )
I'm starting to feel like I can't do anything right here.

First I tell him what I'm looking for in a partner, the qualities of the person I want to be with. I don't tell him how I think that should be manifested because I don't want to tell him how to act or what to do. I want him to think about it and come up with actions he thinks will convey his feelings and show me he can be the partner I am looking for. People here said, "He's a man. You need to be specific. Don't expect him to be a mind reader."

So I come up with a transparency plan that will meet my needs. I give him a list (against my better judgment) of the things I need to be reassured. He does as expected, the bare minimum of what I outlined. People here say, "Don't tell him what to do, you sound like his mother."

I'm ready for a break from all the advice.
Actually the advice is all the same when you look at it. Everyone's just saying to tell him what your needs and expectations are very specifically, make sure he understands, then let him run with them on his own by trusting him.

It's like talking to a kid (for lack of a better example). You show him what he did wrong, what he should do to avoid it, make sure he understands, then let him go with the understanding that he's not going to do it again.

Believe me, the majority of us would kill to be in your shoes right now and I think we're all just worried about your sitch going backwards.

But after all, most of us are simple-headed men. : )
Rugby sounds like fun......




double \:\)
OK, I guess I had misunderstood some things. I wasn't aware that you knew for sure that they planned a meet. If that's thecase, I understand the breach of trust, especially since he did not tell you about it, he should have.

I also did not know you wrote the letter. I thought you told him (verbally) roughly what should be in it and then he wrote it.

I do understand your feelings of "he's just checking the box" and "he's just doing the bare minimum". It's frustrating because you're wanting him to do so much more. I guess what I was trying to say earlier with cutting him some slack is not so much about accepting his mistakes and breaches of trust, but more about not pointing out to him what he's not doing constantly. It's more about patience with him trying to figure out how he can wow you. You have every right to set boundaries and enforce them. Hope this makes my thoughts a little clearer.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Actually the advice is all the same when you look at it. Everyone's just saying to tell him what your needs and expectations are very specifically, make sure he understands, then let him run with them on his own by trusting him.


to this, I would add " -- and verify," but yeah, what Stuck said. ^

Pearl, you've got to chill, or you're going to smother him and scare him off. You're stressing ME out, and I'm not even your BF. Just go with the flow right now, let the transparency plan be your safety net, and enjoy yourself. You deserve it.

Puppy
Pearl,

WAZZZUPPP!!!!????


Puppy
Needed a break Puppy.

But since you are so kind to check up on me, here's an update.

Still seeing xBF almost every day. Not sure if that's too much too soon or good to reconnect.

Fri we had lunch since I was going to be near his office. He was surprised because I usually go with my friend M (his coworker) and I paid for my own lunch. ;\)

Sat we went to Dave & Busters for dinner and skeeball. It was a fun evening, we haven't done that since last fall.

Today we did yard work. Not really together since he was in the front yard and I was in the back. He didn't get mad when I accidentally cut the extension cord with the hedge trimmer, whoops! We ordered Chinese food for dinner and cleaned up just as the rain started.

He was heading out when I asked if we were going to have a real talk since it's been almost a week. We discussed how to start dealing with things. He thinks we can talk it out on our own, I think we need a third party to guide us through it. We agreed to meet Thurs night and try to start. If it doesn't go well we'll go to a MC.

Then he invited me over to see his apartment. So I got the grand tour of the bachelor pad. Turns out I visited that apt complex when we were looking for apts when we first moved to town. He gave me a remote to the gate and garage so I can come over whenever I want. That was nice but I don't see spending much time there considering he has an empty living room and nothing in the fridge but beer, Coke and a bottle of Ranch dressing! His lease is for six months so that means it'll be up in August.

Nothing earth shattering, just swimming along.
Great to hear things working out. Just give it time. Seems like everything's going in the right direction.
I agree. He's trying to earn your trust again. Maybe he backslides every once in a while, but he seems to be trying!
That is a big step.... be happy! Ranch and beer... sounds like all that's missing is the wings!

Good luck on the talk.
My wife use to joke " a couple that can wall paper together can live together.... but cutting through the cord on the hedge trimmer \:\)

Just joking.... glad you are doing well.

On further evaluation I would have had to ask what the ranch dressing was for? I mean in the game "which one doesn't belong"...... But it's better not to ask the tough questions LOL!

all joking aside ... glad things are going well and hope you're happy!!!
The ranch is an easy answer...it is his favorite food. Yes, in his world it is a food. Other things are merely vehicles for the ranch: vegetables, french fries, pizza, etc.

And I am pretty handy since we've done a bunch of remodeling projects over the years. I can change out light fixtures, plumbing fixtures, outlets, install laminate flooring, tiling, painting, removing wallpaper, etc. Hey, I just changed out my tires the day before! So everyone is allowed the occasional mistake. And once I buy a new plug I will fix the extension cord.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr

And I am pretty handy since we've done a bunch of remodeling projects over the years. I can change out light fixtures, plumbing fixtures, outlets, install laminate flooring, tiling, painting, removing wallpaper, etc. Hey, I just changed out my tires the day before! So everyone is allowed the occasional mistake.


wow...talk about breaking the mold.... I know a lot of male friend who can't do that much

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
And once I buy a new plug I will fix the extension cord.


oh yeah and I was joking here... things happen... maybe one day I'll tell you the story about how I caught the floor of my garage on fire while lighting the barbeque grill LOL!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
The ranch is an easy answer...it is his favorite food. Yes, in his world it is a food. Other things are merely vehicles for the ranch: vegetables, french fries, pizza, etc.


LOL! That's funny! So his fridge looks perfectly normal then! \:\)
Originally Posted By: Kenn
wow...talk about breaking the mold.... I know a lot of male friend who can't do that much


Plus I watch sports and sci fi movies. And have a kick ass shoe collection. Yes, I am quite the all around catch! ;\) Now it's up to xBF to realize that and do what he can to keep me. If not, I know there are others who will appreciate all I have to offer.
Hiya Pearl!

That's it . . . just "hiya."

Puppy
Sci Fi is huge!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now can you go to a comedy club and laugh at the jokes only the guys get ??????????????


sounds like the BF is finally starting to realize what he lost.
Hi Puppy! Have another WA wine for you to try. Not my old company but something I'm drinking these days. "House Wine" red blend. It's a white label with a drawing of a house on it. Good bottle.

Kenn, I do go to comedy clubs and laugh at most guy jokes, but I am still a woman and as such do not appreciate all male humor. But I think I more than make up for that in other areas!

In other news...

It feels like xBF and I are friends, but that's all. I enjoy hanging out but still have no desire to kiss him or anything more. Ok, I do miss the cuddling, but nothing more. Could be partly due to my low testosterone levels. But I'm nervous about fixing that problem. I don't want my raging hormones to sway my decisions.

I just got home from going out with xBF for Cinco de Mayo. I feel a little bad because I basically made him take me out. He mentioned it this afternoon but then when I talked to him after dance he said he wanted to bail and just go home because he's been working a lot the past week and was still at work at 9. So I said I'd just go out by myself because I was all wound up from 1.5 hours of dance. He sighed and said he'd just leave work then and pick me up. I know he was trying to be responsible and finish his work and head to bed. But I did make a crack about thinking he thought I was the one who never wanted to go out. He said no, only half the time, the other half it was him. We ended up going to a Mexican restaurant we've been to once before and had a couple margaritas and an order of taquitos.

Now I'm crashing after my long day so I'm off to bed.
Comedy clubs are awesome and I don't even laugh at all the guy jokes.

One of the wildest was when we saw the guy from Full House. He came out and shocked just about everyone.... it was worse for me because I had seen him on America's Funniest Videos the night before and he just doens't seem like the kind of guy that cusses LOL!

sorry about the feelings with the xBF... I think I know what your're talking about. The cuddling is nice because it's closeness to another person but the other affection takes time and when someone kills it ...well I think about it in my sitch and wonder if I would feel it at this point ...so I appreciate what you are going through.

\:\)
Journal:

I'm scared that I'm just letting myself slip back into old patterns. It's been so long since "normal" life that it's nice to have that feeling back. But is this what I really want or is it just comfortable and familiar? Can I really have a future with someone who betrayed me so heartlessly? I know everyone is human and makes mistakes, but this isn't telling me I look fat in a dress or not standing up for me to his mother. This is beyond anything I ever imagined. If you always assume you will walk away from any cheater you are not prepared to walk the path of reconciliation and forgiveness. And the longer I go without knowing if I can do that the more I wonder if I'm just dragging my feet because deep down I know I can't.

Yesterday, for the first time, I felt like I wanted to make it work. We're having fun. Not quite as good as when we first got together because that included lots of affection and physical contact. But that's increasing a bit. When we watch tv I'm laying against him and he puts his arm around me. He smells good and we bring up old jokes that haven't been mentioned in over a year.

And at these times, when we're relaxed and smiling, it's like everything is ok. But then I want to shake myself and remind myself that it is NOT ok. He had an affair. It wasn't a one night stand. When I found out he wasn't sorry and he didn't stop. He flaunted his indescretion in front of people who know me. He f*cked that whore in my house. How can it ever be ok again? How can I respect myself if I act like everything is ok? How can he respect me if I don't respect myself?
PH,

I wrestle with the same thoughts even though I don't have a chance in hell of my H wanting to reconcile. I don't know what to tell you other than I wish you peace in your heart and mind. It took you time to fall in love with him before and it will take you time to fall in love again. Trust isn't something that is easily earned back after something like this, but there will come a time when you will trust again. Who is to say if it's him or someone else. All we have is our past to learn from, our present to live in, and a future that changes according to what we have happen in our lives on a daily basis. You are a very strong woman. You will go on.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
How can it ever be ok again? How can I respect myself if I act like everything is ok? How can he respect me if I don't respect myself?


Pearl,

I can empathize with your struggle, I really can. Based on my own experience, I would only tell you:

1. You don't need to act like everything's okay in order to reconcile.

2. He WON'T respect you if you don't respect yourself.

3. Agreeing to reconcile and work on the relationship does NOT necessarily have to equate to "Pearl doesn't respect herself."

How can it ever be OK again? Here's the secret:

IT CAN'T -- not within the paradigm of the OLD relationship. That one's dead, and while you both did things that made it ill, his decision to have an affair finally killed it.

But you CAN build an entirely NEW relationship, one that's based on a "new Pearl" and a "new xBF". Whether or not those two are compatible remains to be seen. But thousands of others have done it. It requires a ton of hard work and forgiveness, but it CAN be done, and the BEST news is, that many, many people report that the NEW relationship is far better than the OLD one.

Puppy
Agree 100% with PDT! It's NEW relationship. You start anew and due to your (hopefully) deepened understanding of each other, it has the potential to be much better than the old R. But, as said before, it will take time to earn/gain the trust back.
Thank you goingtofixME, Puppy and Sam.

I know it's going to take time. I know it needs to be a new relationship. But it's not the same as a new relationship with another person. With someone new there wouldn't be this crisis to overcome from the start. Could something just as bad happen? Of course, but that's not the starting point. I know I will never forget and I fear that I will never truly forgive.

When we had our R talk last week we discussed that what we both learned is that we can't be afraid to be completely honest with each other. If the R can't handle the honesty then it isn't meant to be. So I know that if we can make it through the hard work it will be a much better R. That's still a big "if" in my mind.

Last night xBF came over for dinner. I've had a headache since Sunday so it was a low key evening. When he was leaving he said ILY for the first time (verbally) since October. I just smiled and said good night. I thought about it for a while. I must love him somewhere inside, otherwise I wouldn't be willing to go through all this. But I am not ready to say it, I still feel too vulnerable right now.

Tonight is supposed to be dance classes but still sick from headache. (Puppy, I think you mentioned sinus problems that make you sick to your stomach. That's exactly what happens to me when the barometric pressure changes significantly.) Tomorrow night I go to dinner and a show with my gf. xBF is going back to his home state for a week on Saturday so we have plans to get together Fri night. I think next week will give me some breathing room to see where I stand.
Hey Pearl,

Thanks for posting. Feel free to visit my thread any time - don't be concerned about what others say - it's my thread afterall. Besides, I think he kind of apologized. I haven't gotten any responses to my latest posts and I need them - especially since I'm pretty much throwing in the towel.

I see you have many doubts about your "new" R with your BF. It's to be expected - you went through alot and worked hard to make him turn his head around. Just sit back and let him court you. Men like the challenge. Not responding back with an ILY too was definitely noticed. It's his turn to work hard now.
Silver, FWIW, my opinion of your H hasn't changed one bit. Honestly I think you deserve much, much better. Let Catbitch deal with all his financial and emotional crap from now on. I also agree with what Puppy posted to you on markhaving prob's thread - I could not/would not patiently wait out an MLC for years. But that's me.

You may be on to something, your biggest 180 would be to go along with the D. At this point I just want you to look out for your best interests and not agree to anything because you want to be nice or feel sorry for H. It sounds like he is just trying to butter you up to get the terms he wants. Remember that you need to put yourself first because no one else will.

If you ever want to talk in the alt you can always gmail me (hint hint). ;\)

On a different topic, I hope your recital went well! I miss our dance convos in DA Club. I skipped my dance classes tonight for only the second time this year. Major bummer but when the headache hits I'm just not good for anything. Sigh.

I am enjoying xBF making plans for us. I just know (and we have discussed) that he is not a natural planner. So that means in the long run that we would likely go back to me making the plans and him going along with them. I said I was fine with that because I do enjoy planning, especially vacations, but I would like him to continue to be responsible for some outings so I don't feel like it's always on me. I have always maintained that it's the thought that counts and when he takes the time to make plans it shows that he is thinking about what I would like to do or what we would have fun doing together.

Which reminds me, I still haven't read 5LL yet. Argh, need to overcome procrastination...
Thought we were communicating well but apparently I was mistaken. While reading through xBF's work email tonight I discovered that he joined a summer volleyball league that he never mentioned to me. And the kicker is that OW was included on the invite email. He previously had told me that she was never involved with volleyball. So another lie and yet another thing I have discovered on my own.

I know it's a small thing, but it's always one small thing after another. I sent him an email expressing how upset I am over learning about this and said if he is not committed to total transparency I'm finished. I'm tired of having to play detective and drag things out of him. I'm tired of the excuse that "I didn't think that counted." He is not stupid and I will not lower my standards any further. It's time to shape up or ship out.
Was OW included on an invite from someone else? If so, xBF can't help he's on the same distribution list as OW. Maybe she just joined trying to get in contact with him? I guess I am just playing the "benefit of the doubt" card here, because I don't know exactly all the details or history, but I think you need to be careful not to jump to conclusions at this stage.

Having said that, I am not advocating you lowering your standards, just trying to remain objective.
Is there a reason why he had to tell you about a volleyball league that he signed up for?

I understand that he knows that you check his email, so maybe his having the OW's name was an afterthought.

It's up to you how you want to read it. I mean, if he wanted to continue with the OW, I don't think he would have used an email address that he knows you would check.
We had a huge blowout tonight, or rather, I had a huge blowout and he just sat there on the other end of the phone.

Re: volleyball league, he swears he told me before about it and said if OW was there he wouldn't do it. I don't remember him telling me this but admittedly I have forgotten things like this in the past. Stuck, he has to tell me about these activities because OW was a coworker and they spent a lot of time together in the company bowling league and other similar activities. Plus he agreed to discuss these things as part of the transparency plan.

The more important issue is that he continues to tell me half truths when asked direct questions. Has OW ever played volleyball with you? First the answer was "no." Then I discovered proof to the contrary. Now the answer is "well, she did play a few times on the weekends but she was never on the teams."

This is what I am tired of, the half truths or lies of omission in response to a simple black and white question. Then I discover later there's more to the story and he tries to back pedal. His answer is "I'm telling you the whole truth now." But I've heard this before. Every time he said he was telling the truth he wasn't. So why should I believe him this time?

I don't want to be anyone's mother. I decided many years ago to not have children. So I certainly do not want to act like his mother, always checking up on what he's doing, who he's with. He is setting me up in this role by not being up front with me to begin with.

His pat response is that he can't change anything in the past, all he can do is try his best now. That's all well and good, but that's always been his response for every damn thing. He definitely subscribes to the philosophy of doing whatever he wants then apologizing for it later when I believe it's much better to just not do the bad thing in the first place.

It devolved from there. I yelled, I cried, I was silent, I talked calmly. And it drives me crazy that there is no emotion in his voice and he never talks about any feelings he may be experiencing. It paints a picture of not caring to me. Yes, I have told him this.

There were more things discussed but it's late and I'm physically and emotionally exhausted.

FWIW, I don't think he's seeing OW or that he wants to see her. For now. But what happens when we're going through tough times or he's mad at me for something? That's where the pattern of "but it's just X" scares me. No contact period turned into "but it's just bowling." After that it was "but it was just to tell her to stop contacting me." What's next? "But it was just to catch up..." "But you were out of town..." "But it was just sex..."
PH,

Just my 2cents, but since he decided to re-commit to the relationship, the tone of some of your posts almost expected him to cheat on you. It almost became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think myself and some others responded that you've got to give him some breathing room or else what just happened was going to happen.

True he was wrong in not telling you about the OW playing before. But in the conversation you described above, I can see how he and you are not communicating well. You two are talking like...well, a typical male and female.

Honestly, if he knows that you read his email and has been transparent about everything so far, it would seem his interactions are just stupid mistakes. He doesn't understand the full extent of how hurt you were because quite honestly, men don't deal with emotions. I think his silence was because 1) he didn't know what else to say, and 2) he felt that if he did say anything to defend himself, you would have jumped all over him anyway.

I could see myself before in that sitch between my W and I.

"It devolved from there. I yelled, I cried, I was silent, I talked calmly. And it drives me crazy that there is no emotion in his voice and he never talks about any feelings he may be experiencing. It paints a picture of not caring to me. Yes, I have told him this."

He can't talk about feelings because he doesn't know how. In all your conversations that you've described in your postings, he doesn't talk about feelings in general. Why should this time be any different?

Maybe you two need to go to a couples counselor to discuss how to talk to each other or read one of the Venus/Mars books.

If I wanted to do something behind my W's back, I certainly wouldn't use an email address that she has access to.

"He is setting me up in this role by not being up front with me to begin with."

I don't think he set you up for the role. You're taking it on voluntarily. It's your choice. I think if he were to take the dominant role in your R, you wouldn't like it very much and go over his head. Hope you don't take that the wrong way. It just seems like you're a much more aggressive person than he is in the R side.

Just my thoughts.
Originally Posted By: stuck808


Just my thoughts.


And I largely agree with them too, PH. You even still call him "xBF" -- what's up with that??

As a man, I can only tell you that it FEELS from here like you're setting him up to fail.

Puppy
Apparently I have a much stronger skull than I thought because you keep hitting me with the 2x4 and I still don't listen. Argh.

So deep breaths.

I did call him this morning and apologized for overreacting last night. I know I get worked up and just can't stop once I get going. We did have a nice chat while he finished his drive to work.

Stuck, you're right, he doesn't know how to talk about his feelings. It's not realistic or fair for me to expect this to change all of sudden. I am just going to have to buckle down and work on my impatience.

This is precisely why I want to go to a counselor and am frustrated that he thinks we don't need to go to one. I see us going round and round with the same types of conversations not getting anywhere because we don't know how to effectively communicate with each other. He seems to think that we will figure it out on our own. This is a fundamental difference between us: I like to go to a class or do some type of research when I want to learn something new, he wants to wing it. I am trying to be open about trying it his way first but honestly I don't have much faith that it will work.

We were supposed to have our weekly R appt tonight but I told him I think yesterday was enough angst for one week and we both could probably use a break. We do have plans to go out tomorrow night, something fun. Then he will be gone for 10 days and I think it will be a good break from each other.

Puppy, yes, I'm still calling him xBF for lack of a better term. I don't feel like we are together at this point. If we are starting over, building a new R, we certainly are not at the point where I would consider him my BF and all the commitment that implies. And yet we are more than dating. We both have agreed not to see other people while we are working through things. So what label is there? I tend not to use labels in RL convos, just refer to him by his name. Do you have a suggestion of another acronym I can use here?
He's your boyfriend. Wouldn't that be what you would call him if you were "more than dating" someone else, from scratch?

Get that other foot off the platform, Pearl, and hop on the train. You may decided somewhere down the track that the ride isn't taking you where you're going, but they DO have other stops down the line, y'know. \:\/

Puppy
Exactly what PD says.

I would say he's your BF just so you get into the right frame of mind.
I don't consider him to be a BF because there is no sexual contact - no kissing, no caressing, no sex. To me that is the difference between dating and being friends. Currently I have no desire to do any of those things with him and I'm not sure I ever will again. Right now we are only friends. Friends who happen to not be dating other people.

I understand what you're saying about putting myself in the right frame of mind to move forward.

Pondering...
Why don't you desire him?
It's just gone. I think when I decided I was done I turned it all off. And now when I look at him there is simply no spark, no urge to just touch or kiss him like there used to be.

I'm sure knowing that he was with another woman has something to do with it.
I'd say it's because you don't trust him therefore you can't be intimate with him.

With women it's all about emotions, so if you can't feel like you can't be vulnerable and open to him in your head, you're not going to be open to him physically.

Right now you're in a bit of a Catch-22 unless one or both of you change. Alot of our WAWs are like that. They "switch" off their attraction for us after they've opened themselves up to another person and feed their emotions into that the OP. Finding a way to turn that switch back on is the hardest thing to do.
Stuck, you're right, trust is a major issue. I feel like I don't want to go there (sex) because it requires opening myself up and being extrememly vulnerable. But as MWD points out in SSM, sometimes you just have to suck it up and do it and the emotional connection will follow. So I took the first step...

We went out to dinner Fri night. He says let's try the restaurant we talked about a few weeks ago. I say sounds good, do you want me to make a reservation? It's a popular place, Fri night, prime time...no, he says, let's just wing it. Grrr. This is a recurring theme in our R, he refuses to plan and then is surprised when things are full. He hates that I want to plan in advance but is happy when he finds out I got the last room/table/etc. We arrive at the restaurant and, lo and behold, without a reservation it will be at least a 45 minute wait. I shoot him an "I told you so" look but didn't say anything. Luckily some spots at the bar opened up as we were walking out so we were able to eat there.

After dinner we went back to the house but I asked if we could hang at his apt instead. I thought if I was dating someone new I would want to see his place, plus it's something different for us. So we took a movie over there and watched it while he packed for his trip back to his home town. We were cuddling on the bed (he only took one tv and no sofa) and when I got up to leave he held on to me and told me to stay. So I did. I leaned over and kissed him and he started kissing me back but I started thinking about him kissing OW and turned away. He continued to kiss my neck and I freaked out a little and started crying.

We both slept on and off and around 3 am we were both awake so I started to explain what had freaked me out earlier. I said I know it's something I'm going to have to work through but I just don't know how to do that right now. I don't know how to forget that he had sex with OW in our house. I don't know if knowing the details will help or hurt - should I get rid of the sofa or am I better off not knowing? How do I get the images of the two of them together out of my head? What we had is not special anymore, he shared things with her that were only supposed to be shared with me. He said there's nothing he can do but give me the time. I said what I need from him right now is to be reassured that he chose me, he wants to be with me because he loves me and he's committed to being open and communicating so we can work on our issues and see if this relationship can work for both of us. I know it's a mouthful so maybe we can come up with a code word or signal that he can use to convey that message. He came up with "pumpernickel." I laughed. So that's our new code word.

Another issue is what he will tell his parents about what's going on with us when he is home. He said nothing because it's none of their business. I disagree. What did he tell them when I didn't show up for Christmas? Nothing. So he let them think it was about me and my decision to not visit them, knowing full well his mom already thinks I don't like them and don't want to spend time with them. (I don't think he knows that I did tell his parents what was going on for precisely that reason.) It goes to the bigger issue: he thinks he didn't involve anyone else in our problems because he didn't tell them, but he did involve them through his actions. He involved his coworkers by carrying on with OW in front of them. He involved his family by not explaining my sudden absence.

We slept some more when we woke up in the morning it felt better. We made out for a bit then I went home. He's gone for a week. I think some time apart will give me some breathing room.

But in the spirit of working to move forward, xBF will be henceforth referred to as BF.
PH, You posted to my thread a few weeks ago and with everything that's been going on for me I never had a chance to reply. But I have been keeping up on your sitch and I have to say I agree with everyone here saying you need to slow down here a bit.

It takes TIME. Right now I can picture your BF knowing he F'd up bad and not knowing how to deal with what he's done to you. He most likely thinks that not telling you simple little details that mean nothing to him would do nothing but hurt you. My W is doing/does the same things. What they just don't realize is every lie, even if it's a lie by omission, over nothing is like sticking a dagger in our hearts. For me, I just keep thinking to myself, that's all she's capable of right now.

Maybe you try that with your BF? Maybe try the "I know we're going to make it" thought and pattern your actions/thoughts after that and see where it takes you? Won't be easy. Trust me, I know.

I hear what you're saying about opening up and being vulnerable. But if you don't, you're never going to make it.


Just my .02.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr


But in the spirit of working to move forward, xBF will be henceforth referred to as BF.


Attagirl.

Puppy
Hey PH,

Hope all is going well! \:\)
Pearl,

Reading through your thread for the first time in almost a week I think, I see a lot of good things happening. The way you describe BF (good move I think!!) paints the picture of a guy that does really want you. Like was said earlier, he knows he f'ed up, but apologizing for that over and over again only brings it back to the surface. Giving you the details, same thing. It's better to just turn your thoughts to the future rather than try to understand the past, that's only going to bring hurt back up. Treat it like a brand new R, because that is what it is!
Puppy and Kenn - thanks for checking in. I love having your support.

Hope4us - thanks for taking the time to write back, I know you're going through a lot right now.

I do agree with you and everyone else that I need to slow down. I could use some suggestions as to what is a happy medium. I struggle with knowing how much time to spend together. It feels natural to talk on the phone every day. Should I only see him a few times a week? That way I slow down the physical and emotional reconnection. Or should I see him as often as every day in order to spend time together and reconnect? In that case I think slowing down means less expectations and just more hang time.

Not sure about the "I know we're going to make it" attitude yet. I want to use this time to examine what we both want out of our R and life in general. I'm not sure those things match up and I want to keep an open mind that it is ok if we choose to separate for that reason.

Sam - yes, I know he wants me. I'm not certain that we are right for each other in the long run. And re: only looking to the future, I am definitely not that type of person. I know we can't change the past, but I need to deal with it first. Just ignoring it from now on is just sweeping it under the rug in my book. I need to figure out how many details I need and go from there.

Today I am pissed at him. For some reason I can't shake the thought that he f*cked that whore in my house. And I specifically told him that OW was never to set foot in my house again and he had her help him move out. WTF? Yes, I know he was living with her but there are a number of guys he could have asked to help him for one day. The total disrespect leaves me feeling disgusted and wondering if I can ever move to acceptance.

I want to tell him that I was with another man so he will have those images running through his head, so he will be the one to wonder who I'm thinking about when we kiss or have sex. I want him to understand the pain first hand and level the playing field.
Hey PH,

I'm going to skip any advice here and just say as a friend I can empathize with your feelings. Those thoughts are always in the background until you see them written down and then they become surreal.

I talk almost daily to a friend who is reconciling with his wife who had an affair on him. He tells me my situation sucks but that his does too. They both have their ups and downs.... just takes time to process it all.

Here for you if you need vent!
Journal:

Wondering if it's worth it...all the pain to build a life with someone who treated me with utter disrespect and threw our life together away because he was too scared to speak up. Don't I deserve better?

He wanted to just walk away because it was easier but he expects me to to take the hard way now that he's changed his mind.

He wanted to try out the greener grass but I can't do that because "two wrongs don't make a right." Funny how he always trots out that line when he's done something bad, but if I make a mistake he snaps back and then says he's just reacting to my actions.

I'm always expected to be the bigger person. Guess what, I'm not the bigger person! I'm just a regular person and I want my chance now to see if the grass is greener. He spent months telling me that we aren't right for each other but is shocked that I might believe that now. Why don't I get the chance to try on someone new and see if I like them better? Why am I the one who is supposed to forgive and forget? Because I drove him to cheat? Because I'm the good girl? Because I've been raised in a culture of guilt?

I know life isn't fair but I really want it to be in this instance.

My mother has not really been there for me in the hard times. But perhaps she's right on this one - maybe I should make a clean break and not look back.
Pearl,

Who says you can't? Be honest with him, tell him you want to break up for a few months to see what else is out there, and go play the field. If at the end of that period you still want him (and he still wants you back), then you two can get back together.

No one's being asked to sign any permanent contracts in blood here, right?

Puppy
If you want to really try to make your marriage work, "playing the field" will not help you. In fact, it will muck up the waters and make it all worse. You do have a choice, though. You either stay and work on the marriage, or you divorce.

By seeing if the "grass is greener" you are playing with the fire of emotions you can get with new relationships. Just like your H got his "high" with a new relationship, so will you; and the state you are in is not a good one to begin making new relationships. I can predict you finding someone who will take this pain away...someone who will make you feel like you MUST not love your H, because this new person makes you feel like you never have before. You'll think, "THIS is what love is!" But, it isn't. It is just new love, and you are older so what you do now in relationship will be different than what you did when you first met your H. So, it may be different, but it doesn't mean it is any more love than what you have for your H.

You didn't sign up for a spouse that would cheat on you. You can leave him. But, you can also work hard and have a better marriage than you can imagine right now.

I haven't read all of your situation so I may be missing some things, but it sounds as if you are doing all of the work. If your H isn't doing what you need, ask him to. Tell him what is needed for the marriage to get better. Get outside help if needed.
Ok, just realized you are not married. It's almost like a common law marriage being together for so long, though. But, you don't have kids, and you aren't "married", so.....

If you feel like your relationship was a marriage, take my advice. If you feel like you were dating and testing the waters, you perhaps have found the answer to that.
Puppy, I did tell him I felt this way and it's not ok with him. If I choose to do that then as far as he's concerned we're done. And if I did choose that path it would involve moving out of state so the liklihood of us ever getting back together would be virtually zero.

I just need to decide if that's what I need to do for me.
Yep. But you DO get to decide. You're not powerless in this, is the only point I was trying to make.

Puppy
Yes, but I feel like my options are limited. It's ok for him to go out and shack up with another woman and expect me to take him back. But if I want to not be exclusive with him it's over completely, no chance at reconciliation. I know, no one forced me to give him another chance. I just don't like how it's black and white with him but he expects me to see every shade of gray.
Hey Pearl,

I see you're struggling a great deal and I'm sorry. Your sitch reminds me of two quotes by Lao-tzu:

"Someone must risk returning injury with kindness,
or hostility will never turn to goodwill."

"If you seek revenge, you might as well dig 2 graves."

Hard to follow I know, but something to think about.

Your BF says it will be over if you're not exclusive - but doesn't everyone say that? Didn't you? I think he's trying to hang on to you and the "we're done if you date" type of response is his manly, yet immature way to express his love - maybe?
Pearl,

My opinion would be that "playing the field" is not going to help anything re BF. An eye for an eye is not what stops the hostilities. I do really feel for you and the struggle you're going through, it's difficult! In my mind you can either try to forgive and work on the R, or you decide that you can't forgive and move on. You could just take it slow and try to reconnect and see if that allows you to forgive?
PH,

From everything you're going through it comes down to one thing...if you want to stay in your relationship and have it thrive and flourish, you've got to learn to let what happened in the past go. Of course it's much easier said than done and I think we're all coming to grips with that.

In your case, your BF is back, but you let all the resentment, hate and anger that you held back when you were DBing fester inside of you so that it's not become this huge beast. Trust me, I know what you're going through. It is something that you can't get away from. It's definitely not as easy as saying "okay I forgive you, let's work it out". It take ALOT of patience and forgiveness on your part.

You will have certain "triggers" that will remind you of the things he did or something he shared with the OW. Kind of like post-traumatic stress disorder. And your BF will not understand because he didn't go through it from your POV. My W is the same way.

So it comes down to you. Only you can decide what you ultimately want. I think if you were to date other people, you were right in saying that it would be over. It's going to take alot of soul-searching on your part and how much you can forgive.
Thanks to everyone for your support and opinions. It was a long and interesting weekend. I don't have the time or energy to go into it all now, but in a nutshell:

I got a glimpse of playing the field. While I was tempted I realized that it's more important to me to honor a commitment. If I try my best to make this relationship work and it doesn't for whatever reason, there will be plenty of time then to enjoy being single.

Spent some time with BF, mostly fun with a few emotional triggers and ensuing upset. Talked about a few things with good results and decided that we are officially back together. Of course the caveat is that we may still decide in the end we are better off separating, but we are moving forward as a couple working out our problems. Also decided I need to work with an IC to learn how to deal with my own issues like how to get past thinking about BF and OW and figuring out what I want to know and what I want to just leave in the past.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I got a glimpse of playing the field. While I was tempted I realized that it's more important to me to honor a commitment. If I try my best to make this relationship work and it doesn't for whatever reason, there will be plenty of time then to enjoy being single.


That's a great attitude! \:\) EXACTLY my feelings in my sitch! Like one of the main DB principles I have to remind myself of pretty often: Time is on our (LBS) side! You guys are doing good!
Pearl, wazzupppp???? cool

Puppy
Happy for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Hi guys

Things are moving along pretty well. We had our first DIY counseling session Fri night. We started with childhood stuff and both of us came away with a better understanding of where each other is coming from. BF says thinking about this stuff and other things he's read in the books is really good and doesn't understand why people don't discuss them before problems develop. I said other people do talk about it, just not us. He's not convinced or at least thinks no one he knows ever has these conversations.

The rest of the weekend was good. We didn't have any specific plans so I made dinner reservations at a sushi place. I went to the farmer's market with a girlfriend, then later BF came over and we walked to girlfriend's house and the three of us went out to lunch. Dinner was nice, excellent yellowtail. Sunday we slept in a bit and went to a nursery to pick out plants for the back yard. BF went to play golf with a coworker and came back for dinner.

We talked more on Sunday night about my tendency to plan and his to wing it. It boils down to the fact that I enjoy planning and he doesn't so he's happy to go along with whatever I come up with. I explained that I'm never sure if he likes the activities or not because he says everything is "fine" so I don't trust that he'll ever voice a dissenting opinion. Plus that was one of the main things he cited in why we weren't compatible, we didn't have any of the same interestes. Now I know that we're not supposed to believe what they say when they're in the fog, but I just can't shake that one. I asked if we could have a weekly date night and take turns planning so I don't feel like I'm forcing my interests on him. He agreed so we'll see how that goes.
EXCELLENT, Pearl!!! So glad to hear of the progress!

This all sounds REAL good to me.

And this, from a guy who never likes ANYTHING! smirk

Puppy
ditto for me.. smile

You know PH,

you mention two things that were in my relationship so I will share another males perspective. If it helps great but just because it existed for me doesn't mean its right LOL!

As far as other couples reading prior to problems... we never did BUT they say 50% of marriages end in divorce. I would bet that the 50% that aren't divorcing are doing something more proactive than just waking up in the morning. Bet you're right that they at least are reading some stuff or at least talking about it smile

As far as the planning thing, same thing in my marriage. I am going to say this but please don't read anything into the way I write it... electronic communication is a minefield smile

My wife would plan stuff out, then tell me I that I never planned anything.

From my perspective:

She would plan so far out that things would be planned before I even thought about the weekend.

The majority of the time I was really okay with what we did, however the few times I would mention that I didn't want to do something she planned she would throw it back in my face that I didn't plan anything.

There were things she wanted to do but didn't feel comfortable doing without me (like take the boat out fishing), yet she never once said "hey, I would really enjoy doing this". And you probablly have the idea that if she would have I would have done it LOL! But I have heard it a hundred times that I didn't do these things.

So in hind sight. I am now a firm believer in doing things together. I think the best thing is to sit down and talk about this to the point of just making sure you guys are both comfortable with telling each other how you feel about it. I would bet that 90% of the time he really is okay doing what you have planned and just wants to be with you. And would rather let you plan out the stuff. However there are things he would like to do and jsut doens't tell you.

And I would suggest if you are the planner in the realtionship you should be able to figure out the things he really likes and just every once in awhile plan an activity that you know he likes even if you don't. That will go a long way I think.

My wife and I had different tastes in movies. We both liked action and drama, I avoided chick flics while she avoided comedies and fantasy. I know when things were good for us was when I would pick a chick flick every once in awhile and she would go to a fantasy movie out of the blue.

That's my umpteen cents.

i am really glad things have turned around so positively for you!!!!!
I think you're right Kenn in that the key is doing things together. Last year we both just stopped trying to do all the little things and that led to doing more and more separate activities. Not that I'm willing to give up my own things, nor do I want him to give up his own things. But we are making more of an effort to do things together.

BF did say that 95% of the time he was fine with what I planned. And yes, he does prefer that I do the planning. And I do try to plan things that I think he would like to do too, not just me. But I am plagued by the feeling that he won't speak up when I have things planned that he doesn't like or want to do. I have to trust him to speak up.

Regarding planning in general: I realize that I could use some more spontaneity and that's one of the things he brings to the R. But what you non-planners don't understand is that many of the cool things we do require advance planning and will not happen otherwise. For example, BF would decide two days before a holiday weekend that we should go somewhere. Yes that would be fun but everything was booked for that weekend months ago. And he would be shocked that everything was booked, even though I mentioned it months ago and this is the fourth consecutive time he tried to throw something for a holiday weekend at the last minute with the same results.

So for now I'm trying this approach - taking turns every other weekend planning something. If he doesn't plan anything on his weekend then I may make my own plans without him. And if he really wants to spend time with me but just wing it then he can say he plans to have no set plans.

We do have the same problem with not liking the same movies. I like a wide range while he sticks to action and comedy. We've both been surprised to like/love the other's choices every now and then. So we need to keep those moments in mind. smile
you bring up a good point PH about the long term to short term availability.

My wife and I would always talk in advance about where we wanted to go and then she would jump on the computer and make it happen. Funny thing is that I thought she always enjoyed it kind of like shopping (just for hotels and events) Guess I am going to have to ask her, for my own curiosity and my next relationship.
maybe she though I was a procastanator too....hmmmm?
Hey Pearl,

Just wanted to say I'm so happy for you!
Pearl,

Been away on vacation for a week, just now catching up with you! smile

Sounds like you guys are doing great! You seem to be communicating well, agreeing on things, all good. About the planning, I was gonna say that maybe you can plan the "long term" weekends and then leave some weekends open for him to just do spontaneous stuff. Even if you are a planner, I am sure you like to just go and "wing" it every once in a while. It gets you to do things you normally wouldn't do. You need spontaneous in a R/M. I wouldn't call it "plan to have no plans". That's still planning! Leave a weekend just completely open. Plan to do nothing if that satisfies the planner in you, but don't tell BF that. smile I guess what I am trying to say is: I don't think you want to overwhelm him with plans, even if it is "to have no set plans". Make sense?
Hi Sam

Hope you had a good vacation. I'm on my way over to your thread when I'm done here.

I totally see what you're getting at about the planning. And actually I felt like I was overplanning when looking at the calendar for the rest of the summer. I think it got a little out of hand - all I really wanted was one date night a week and somehow that morphed into the weekend. Will talk with BF and get it back to just one date night a week and see what happens with the weekends. Most likely I'll end up planning something every weekend for now because there's just so much going on in the summer.

It was a pretty busy week, the first with a full schedule. We have activities planned Mon-Thur, weather permitting. Interesting evening Wed. There's a guy on the kickball team who is interested in me. He's the one from a couple weeks ago when I mentioned that I saw an opportunity to date someone else. He ended up sitting with me at the bar after the game while BF went to the other side of the bar to play pool with other guys. I know I should have just stood up and walked over to BF, but he was drunk and not caring at all that another man was keeping me company.

It does bother me that BF doesn't have even the slightest twinge of jealousy. In my mind it signals that he is either so confident that I am completely trustworthy or that he doesn't care enough to be jealous. I'm not looking for him to be possessive or not trust me, but isn't everyone just a little jealous when a new person of the opposite sex enters your partner's life? And BF does not know that the guy from last week is the same guy who tried to kiss me a while back (I did tell him about the incident, I just didn't give specifics). I hinted at it yesterday, telling him there was a guy hitting on me while I was waiting for him at the ballpark. Told him that he shouldn't leave me alone for long periods of time because other men do tend to swoop in. It was said with a smile and jokingly but I hope he understands that I do like to know that he cares enough to protect me from unwanted advances. If it continues to happen and bother me then I'll bring it up in a serious conversation.

Other than that we spent the whole weekend together doing mostly fun things but a couple chores were thrown in. BF is out of town on business for the next few days so I'll have some time to myself again. smile
Hi Silver

Thanks for checking in on me! I was going through your sitch to catch up, can't remember if I commented so I'm heading over to you after Sam.
Pearl,

What I was saying with the planning is that you can plan some outings that require advance reservations and stuff. Just leave room for the "spur of the moment" things that he likes to take on. Let him "lead" during those times. That was also a thing you mentioned before that bothered you, that you were leading him through everything, so here's your chance to give him his turn.

About the other guy: if BF didn't know that this was the guy that was hitting on you before, maybe he didn't see him as an immediate threat, especially with him there in the same place. He also may have been observing from a distance?
I get that Sam. Honest. Even if it didn't sound like it. That's the way it used to be. Sometimes I make plans if I find something I want to do and other times we just wing it. He really doesn't like to plan so it's not like I'm not giving him the opportunity, he simply prefers for me to do it and just go along.

Re: other guy, no, I'm sure BF didn't see him as a threat. My point is that he should see every man who is flirting with me as a potential threat. Just enough to want to check him out. For example, when BF gets a new female coworker/employee and starts talking about her I always have a twinge of jealousy until I meet her and get a vibe for her myself. I've been this way the entire time we've been together, not just since OW. Rationally I know it's nothing (well, I used to) but my gut just wanted to make sure for myself. That's the level of jealousy I'm looking for in him but I guess it's just not the way he's wired.
I understand your description of the jealousy thing. I can understand why you would be feeling some jealousy if he was talking about a coworker a lot. Not knowing the person can lead you to imagine that other person to be better looking and more attractive than they really are. Meeting them in person and seeing how they interact should tell you how they really think about each other. I was supervising an intern a few years ago and I was just telling about my day to W in the evenings and I think I may have been talking about her a little too much to the point that my W really got worried. In combination with her own insecurity, it might have triggered (or at least contributed to) the current crisis in my case. This intern now works at my office and got married recently and is still a very good friends and lives just down the street. And W is fine with her now that she's met her lots of times, because she watches the boys every once in a while. All this to say that I think it's normal for you to feel that way about his coworkers.

So, was this other guy really obviously flirting with you in front of BF? Does he know him?
Oh yeah, this other guy was not being subtle at all. BF had never met him before and I've only met him a couple times myself. So in my mind BF should have stuck by my side and been more concerned about flirting guy's intentions than getting drunk. Makes me feel like I'm not as important as a night of cheap beer.

Tonight was kickball, BF is out of town but flirting guy (FG) was there. I think I did a good job of being friendly but not overly friendly with FG. It helped that my girlfriend who is the mutual friend through whom I met FG was there so I mostly hung out with her. But FG was still flirting with me. Or maybe I have an overactive imagination and now think every man who smiles and chats with me is hitting on me. I can't believe I'm actually having this issue. If you'd told me last year I'd be struggling to stay away from another man's attention I would have said you were totally off your rocker.

Had a little issue with BF tonight. We were talking and he mentioned going on another business trip the week after next. I told him I wasn't sure how I felt about him travelling with women who I'd never met and his response was he didn't know what to say (in a very flip tone). I got a little angry and said the least he could do was say nothing would happen and if he couldn't do that we are moving backwards.

Argh, this is just so frustrating! I know I can't ask him not to go on business trips, I'm just looking for some reassurance. I've told him that I need a lot of that right now. And yet he sounds like he's tired of it already. It's only been two months! This is what I was afraid of, it's too comfortable and he's expecting everything to be back to normal but it's only normal on the surface. Then I get angry wondering where he gets off being pissy with me when it's his actions that got us here. Grr.

Maybe I'm more upset because I talked to a friend today who I haven't talked to since BF and I got back together. She's the one I leaned on the most when it was all going down and she definitely does not approve of me taking BF back. She says she supports me no matter what but it's obvious that she does not agree. It was a little difficult explaining my decisions to her when all she can say is how can you trust him, why do you want to be with him, etc. I wasn't surprised by her responses, it's just emotionally draining.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr


Had a little issue with BF tonight. We were talking and he mentioned going on another business trip the week after next. I told him I wasn't sure how I felt about him travelling with women who I'd never met and his response was he didn't know what to say (in a very flip tone). I got a little angry and said the least he could do was say nothing would happen and if he couldn't do that we are moving backwards.

Argh, this is just so frustrating! I know I can't ask him not to go on business trips, I'm just looking for some reassurance. I've told him that I need a lot of that right now. And yet he sounds like he's tired of it already. It's only been two months! This is what I was afraid of, it's too comfortable and he's expecting everything to be back to normal but it's only normal on the surface. Then I get angry wondering where he gets off being pissy with me when it's his actions that got us here. Grr.



Pearl,

Why do you assume that your BF has this perfect bag of tools to help him deal with this new start with you? Perhaps HE is struggling as well to know what to say to you, how to act, etc.?

Maybe it's just me, but I keep getting a sense of "I can never win with you" when I read your posts about your interactions with him. And it sounds like he didn't handle it well, I'm not saying that he did. But you admit yourself that your stance (that he can't take business trips) is unreasonable, so why is YOUR unreasonableness, HIS problem?

Not trying to be a dikk, Pearl -- you know I luv ya -- but this is how it's coming across to me, as a guy.

Puppy
Just being honest here....

I can understand that he doesn't know what to tell you. He's going on a trip with coworkers. He's telling you a long time in advance. What could he tell you that would reassure you? Saying nothing will happen? Saying that the women on the trip are not attractive? I don't think that would appease your mind. Am I wrong? I don't think there's anything he could say that would reassure you completely. You two are in this sitch and you will just have to trust each other blindly sometimes to rebuild the R, even if you feel like you are not ready for that yet. Isn't that part of rebuilding? You need to take some steps into unknown territory every once in a while or your sitch will be stagnant.

I guess you will have to decide if you want open up your vulnerability in the interest of rebuilding trust or not.

Just my random (honest) thoughts here...
Thanks Puppy and Sam

You know I love you guys even though it seems you keep telling me the same thing and I'm still having a hard time with it.

Yes, what I am expecting BF to say is "You have nothing to worry about" and/or "What can I/we do to reassure you?" instead of his tone and attitude that conveys "So what?"

To be clear Puppy, I did not nor would I ever say to him that I did not want him to go on any business trip. I think he knows that (but will make sure to say it when we talk). I simply wanted to tell him how I was feeling and get some reassurance. I have told him many times that I do and would continue to need this reassurance. I'm frustrated because it feels like he's already decided he doesn't need to put in as much effort after a whopping two months.

I am very angry at him today. I didn't start out that way. I was thinking about what I would do tonight when he gets back from his trip (i.e. romantic evening or just answer the door naked) and all of a sudden I found myself pissed off that he managed to find the time to plan a romanic ski weekend for his whore for New Year's Eve but now his idea of a romantic getaway with me is to invite me along on the tail end of another business trip so we can spend 4th of July in MN or WI and by the way, it's up to me to make all the plans. And on top of this he tells me he has all this vacation time that he will never use up but it doesn't occur to him to actually use it to spend time with me.

And still upset with him not "protecting" me from FG.

I'm sure I'm overreacting and I'm sure my expectations are high. But I don't feel like I can lower them any more and keep my self respect. Either he can be the man I want and need or he can't. I'm not going to leave over this, it's just adding to a general feeling that this R may not be enough for me.
I understand how you feel, Pearl, I really do. And you may very well be entitled to feel this way, and to get this from him. But if it were me, I'd probably throw up my hands in helplessness, and think that there's no pleasing you. At least that's how it comes across on here.

Puppy
Maybe there isn't.
I think you need to step back and concentrate on forgiving. Like really letting go of all the resentment that you have built up in you.

He can't mindread you all the time and you can't EXPECT him to do what you want when he doesn't know what to do. It's the expectations that you have to purge yourself of.

Even if this R doesn't work out, I have a feeling that this "problem" (sorry to use that term but I don't know what else to call it) is going to follow you to every R you have.

If you two get M, I have a feeling you're going to feel that way about your kids too if they don't do what you think they should.

It's more a matter of doing it for yourself. You don't want to live with hate, anger, bitterness and resentment in you. Maybe you have to do some kind of cleansing ritual or some kind of religious talk about forgiveness.

Just my 2cents.
What I was saying in my post above wasn't meant as it's not normal for you to feel this way. It was to say it IS normal for you to feel insecure at this point, this state of mind. But YOU have to get out of that state of mind, don't rely on BF to get you out of that.

Quote:
Yes, what I am expecting BF to say is "You have nothing to worry about"


Would that have calmed your mind?

Quote:
"What can I/we do to reassure you?"


What would your answer have been to that question?

I think you are expecting him to get you out of this way of thinking by his actions, but what I am saying is that he can't. At some point or another, it's gonna take some blind trust that you probably are not ready to give, but you just have to. If that trust is then not broken, then you will start feeling comfortable with that level of trust, and so on. BF can't build your trust in him without you giving him some.

Same thing about replaying hurtful actions from him in the past. It builds anger and resentment, but what do you gain with that? BTW, it's all normal! I have these thoughts daily, trust me! But I have learned to let it go and I get over my anger and resentment in a couple of minutes now. During my vacation, she would do some things that remind me of hurtful moments and I got angry, but she's right there and so I HAD to get it out of me and I was able to. Try to look for the positives and the future, I believe that is the way forward.
Originally Posted By: Sam1007
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr

Yes, what I am expecting BF to say is "You have nothing to worry about"


Would that have calmed your mind?


Actually, yes. Probably not completely but it would definitely have stopped the ramping up of emotions.

Originally Posted By: Sam1007
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
"What can I/we do to reassure you?"


What would your answer have been to that question?

Meet the new people I don't know, give me a detailed itinerary, call every evening. Things we've already discussed. None of this is new, he just isn't doing the things we've already agreed on and it's frustrating that I have to remind him constantly. And the fact that he can tell what's bothering me and doesn't just jump in. He admits that he knows what's going on and what to say to calm me down but he just doesn't do it. He said he will work on not being afraid to interrupt me and difuse the situation.

We did talk last night. I brought up all of the things that were bothering me and he responded to each one. Although I dislike being a waterworks on a regular basis it does feel good to get things out in the open and resolved rather than just let them build up.

One surprising thing I got out of the conversation was that he is jealous from time to time and always has been, he just never said anything because he knows that I can take care of myself and he trusts me. I know it's a Catch-22 situation but I explained that I need to feel like he's a little bit protective of me because I'm worth protecting. He said he does feel that way but didn't want to come across as possessive.

So in the end we kissed and made up and spent a restless night on the bad mattress. I remember why I got the Tempur-Pedic! Hopefully I'll remember that when I get annoyed that we spend all our time together at the house rather than his apartment. smile
OK, so you do have some renewed trust in him already if you can reassured by him saying that you have nothing to worry about. I didn't think that would have reassured you a couple of months ago. So, good!

It's also very good to discuss these things in a calm manner and "defuse" it that way. I am glad you guys had a good conversation! So, apparently he DID notice the FG with you!! Just trying to imagine being BF in that situation, I think I do understand his fear of acting possessive at this point. He's still unsure of what the R is between the 2 of you and acting possessive might worsen things. Also, towards him, you have always been very clear and strong about what you want and not afraid to set boundaries, so it makes sense for him to believe that you are more than capable of handling FG.

You're in a difficult process pearl! On the one hand you were detached from BF and being independent and strong. It seems to me you have made a big change in that regard to being much more dependent on/affected by his actions right now. Maybe that's why BF is not sure on how to behave?
You're a wise man, Sam.
Originally Posted By: Sam1007
On the one hand you were detached from BF and being independent and strong. It seems to me you have made a big change in that regard to being much more dependent on/affected by his actions right now. Maybe that's why BF is not sure on how to behave?


Interesting and true point. I figured that I couldn't remain emotionally detached and work on the R. It wasn't working for me plus everyone was saying to open up more and be more trusting. So now it seems that I'm too attached? I just can't see the happy medium.

Also I'm not sure how much more dependent I'm being from pre-bomb days, I'm just being open with him about it. Before I would have felt the same way but been too scared to rock the boat to discuss it.
pearl,

I feel for you! It's very difficult in this stage. Could you act dependent and open to him when you're together, but be independent when you're not?

I remember a post from Sandi early on in my sitch that basically was about what to do when the WAS starts coming back. You do have to remain detached, maybe even a bit more as the WAS comes your way. Picture it like this: It's the detachment, the distance between the LBS and WAS that "reels" the WAS back in. For the WAS to keep coming your way, you have to keep some level of detachment going, until the WAS is where you would like them to be.

It's a difficult line to walk. Every once in a while, my W comes my way a little bit and every part of me wants to jump right on it, but I know I shouldn't. I make sure we have a great time, but then I go back to trying to be as detached as possible. I call it a "hit and run" approach, "hit" them with something they are going to miss during the "run" period. In my mind it shows them what good times can be had with you if they choose to come back. Let them think during their time alone what they are missing out on.

I am rambling on, but I guess what I am trying to say is try to maintain some level of detachment. For your own sanity as well as to help BF realize he's not out of the woods yet.
Still trying to figure out how to keep some emotional detachment.

Things seem to be going well. I don't doubt that BF wants to be here with me. I do have moments when I wonder if this is what's best for me in the long run. I wonder if I'm missing out on a better life with someone better suited to me, especially now that I see FG on a regular basis. I know that he's not really interested in me, he was only interested in getting me into bed. (LOL, does that make me sound conceited!) I'm hung up on it because we just clicked and it makes me wonder if there is someone else out there I would just click with better than BF, someone with whom I would have a clean slate and someone who wouldn't put me through hell.

Ah well, I'm sure it will pass. This is the path I have chosen and I'm committed to it. Need to work on letting go of the need for external validation and instead find my happiness within myself.

I did manage to assert my independence and show that I want to spend time with BF. His volleyball game on Thur was cancelled due to weather so he wanted to come over to the house and do something with me. I said I was sorry he suddenly had no plans but I did and wasn't going to break them. I told him I was going to go to happy hour with my girlfriend and then BF and I could go to a movie afterwards if it wasn't too late. So he came over and hung out with the cats while I was out with her. I didn't cut happy hour short just because he was waiting for me. BF was fine with that, he was happy that I agreed to make any plans with him. Movie was hilarious (The Hangover) and it was good because it was my choice that he gave in to and he ended up loving it. He commented that he was glad that sometimes I make him do things he says he doesn't want to do because I know he will have a good time because he does have a good time. smile
Good to hear from you, Pearl! I really liked the way you handled that one!

Puppy
Hey PH,

What you just described is what I think a normal healthy relationship should be.... it's those realtionships where you drop everything for the other person that start to morph into something else.

we all have to be us and remember ourselves as much as the person we are with.
As Kenn said, that all sounds healthy to me!

And to answer your question about someone else not putting you through hell: there's no guarantee with anybody else, but I can tell you BF won't do it again, because he KNOWS you'll be gone then!
Sam, I was just thinking that this morning. I'm pretty sure BF won't do it again because he knows the consequences, but there's always going to be that kernel of doubt because if he did it once he can do it again.
pearl,

I understand. In your mind, he will remind you of that time in your life. Just like songs remind you of something that happened earlier while that song was playing...

How is it going lately?
Thanks for checking in on me Sam. Sounds like you've been pretty busy yourself!

Last week we had our first non-A-related fight. I was tired and hungry which means cranky. There were some misunderstandings at kickball so by the time we got home I was pissed. We had it out a bit then he left in a huff and pouted in the other room. After getting some things done I went downstairs to talk it out. Told him I didn't want us arguing on our last night together for a week. Ended up deciding to just let things go and go to bed.

Cuddling in bed and BF indicates he wants to ML. That's great honey but I'm just not up for anything long and involved since I'm tired/hungry/cranky. So he just says no, it's fine. So frustrating! I didn't say I didn't want to, just keep it simple. So then he wants me to tell him what I want. I WANT YOU TO STOP TALKING AND JUST DO IT! Don't worry, did not say those exact words in that tone but did convey that general idea. All's well.

While I was out of town for a long weekend visiting a girlfriend he moved back into the house. He brought most of his stuff back, still a few things left in the apartment. When I got back yesterday he left for a business trip so we won't both be in the house until Thursday night. I'm finding it a tad bit difficult readjusting to him living here but I'm sure he's going through the same thing. I forgot how annoying his whiskers in the bathroom sink and dirty socks on the family room floor can be. And I still need to finish my closet remodel so he can have his closet back. So little things to overcome but I think it's going well so far.

We're going to Vegas this weekend for a little getaway. I hope it will be relaxing and fun. I've made dinner reservations for one night but that's the extent of my planning.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Cuddling in bed and BF indicates he wants to ML. That's great honey but I'm just not up for anything long and involved since I'm tired/hungry/cranky. So he just says no, it's fine. So frustrating! I didn't say I didn't want to, just keep it simple. So then he wants me to tell him what I want. I WANT YOU TO STOP TALKING AND JUST DO IT! Don't worry, did not say those exact words in that tone but did convey that general idea. All's well.


I know those situations, I've been in them lots of times and I can tell you as guy, it's arousing to know a woman wants to ML to you. Finding out that a woman does not, is a pretty good turn-off. My W has said while in MC: "Why can't we just have sex? Even if I'm not in the mood, we can just have sex.." And while that's true, it's when that happens too often (like in my case) that the intimate connection between partners starts deteriorating. When my W and I stopped ML, it was because she said her feelings weren't into it, so in my mind apparently we cannot "just have sex".

I guess I am ranting on my own sitch here, and I am not saying this is happening too often in your sitch, but I am just trying to say that I understand his reaction. I would much prefer a: "Sorry, but I am completely exhausted right now so let's go to bed early tomorrow night and take our time." And then actually foolow up on it the next night. It's perfectly ok to just be honest and say you're not in the mood (as long as it's not like that every day of course! wink ) instead of conveying "do it quick so we can get this over with".

Just wanted to convey this guy's perspective on this, since I have been on the other side of that convo.

So... he moved back in! Learning to live together again...
What Sam said. ^ Just not as tactfully. smirk

Puppy
Being a guy myself, I agree with Sam 1007.
Thanks guys. The problem was that tomorrow wasn't an option. I get up at 5:30 for boot camp, by the time I get home he is getting ready for work and then I was off to the airport in the afternoon.

Just to be clear, I did want to but just not with all the hoopla. I have to agree with Sam's wife's sentiment about sometimes I just want to have sex. And that is a 180 for me because before I would just say I'm tired and go to sleep.

So is there a tactful way to convey that sentiment? I am trying to get out of my LD habits and just do it more often. Is there not room for any quick, basic sex at this point?
pearl,

Of course there is! Actually, having a quickie can be pretty exciting! What I was trying to convey is that in my case, the "just have sex" comment came across as she did not want to, but she'll allow me to have my way with her. It did NOT come across as she did WANT it but just quick. I think the difference may be that if the guy's initiating all the time (like I was), then a comment like "do it quick" comes across wrong. That's where W and I had our misunderstandings I guess. Especially over the past few years, very few times have I felt wanted by her. The last time was actually 3 months after the bomb, when I had been away for 2 months for work....

Here I go again, rambling off track about my own stuff. I guess my point would be to make him feel wanted on a regular basis. That makes it easier to accept the occasional "i'm not in the mood and tired".

I might be coming across to you as very persistent with trying to make my point, but this was one of the major things that caused misunderstandings between my W and I.
Yes, It is differences in the way men and women communicate about sex that causes sex starved marriages. I was also always initiating sex with my wife and for the last few years I was getting the "I am tired" and she was out like a light in 5 minutes. That totaly shot my confidence and so the cycle began. I would try to initiate once or twice a week and get rejected. Then my wife would give in to please me and because of this there were no emotions involved.

So, long story short- if you just want a quickie...just tell him that! smile He would much rather hear that I am sure.
Sam, you're right, in the past I did convey the message that I didn't want to ML but would just go along and that really got to BF. Honestly I didn't want to but since I learned that I had practically zero testosterone and have taken steps to fix that I am trying to "just do it" while waiting for the hormones to rise. wink I think BF is just so sensitive to anything sounding like "no" that I'm trying to be as direct with him as possible. I just don't want to have to tell him repeatedly, "Yes, I want this, I just want a quickie." It's a process.

And don't ever worry about talking about your own sitch. That's why I'm here, to see what others are going through and learn from communal experience. Plus you know that I'm following your sitch.

v1olin, yep, that's what happened with us. Now that I know I'm determined not to let it happen again.

We're off to Vegas tomorrow. We're both really looking forward to it. I'm bringing some new dresses that show off the results of my GAL activities of walking, dance and exercise classes, and some lingerie. blush Plus there will be no R talks or reading, just three days of fun.
pearl,

I'm glad you found the culprit and are on the way to "fix" it. The communications about sex are so easy to go wrong. In hindsight it's so clear how things were taken the wrong way.

Glad you're going on a mini vacation! Sounds like fun! And you're prepared for some fun in the hotel room! wink Good for you!
Update:

Vegas was fun. Did have a little cry one morning after sex when I realized that the last time BF was on a romantic weekend away having sex in a king-sized bed it wasn't with me. I really wish these thoughts would go away. I suspect they will with time but I need a better way to work through them now. Other than that we enjoyed ourselves.

Had another situation last night. After kickball the team went to a bar where BF used to meet OW. I had previously told him that I would not go anywhere he took her so we had declined going to this bar a couple weeks earlier. But this was the last game of the season and I did feel like socializing so I agreed to go. As soon as I walked in the door I started to shake. BF said we should go home if I didn't want to be there. I felt like I was damned if I do and damned if I don't--if I leave then I'm letting OW and the past dictate what I can and can't do, but if I stay then I'm backing down from a boundary that I put in place to keep my self respect in tact. After I took a few minutes to calm down I decided not to let the whore win and decided to stay. It would be easier to be there with a big fun group rather than just the two of us. Eventually I got over it and we had a good time but I don't think we'll be going back there any time soon.

Thoughts are now turning to our anniversary which is coming up in a few weeks. I don't want to celebrate it because it feels phony. Nine years together? Not really since I found out he was cheating at Thanksgiving and we broke up in January. I'm not sure what BF will say if I don't want to do anything. We haven't really done anything special for the last few years, just gone out to dinner. I kind of want to wait and see if he even remembers or thinks about making plans.
pearl,

Good to hear you had fun in Vegas! I can understand why those kind of thought bother you. It's difficult, but with time they will go away.

About the bar thing: I think it was a nice gesture of BF to offer to just leave if you weren't comfortable! He's really committed to making sure you don't have to be reminded of that part of history. I'm glad you decided to stay though. You said that had you left, then the whore wins, but that's not true! The whore has already lost: BF is with you! That bar may remind you of the past however, but you'll just have to build some good memories there to make it your place.

About the anniversary thing: I don't think it's a good idea to ignore the whole thing. That just shows that you don't care, especially in this piecing stage, where you're rebuilding the R. I'm not saying to organize a romantic weekend getaway with vow renewals, but more like going out to dinner to a special place you don't go to very often. Has BF organized something for your anniversary in the past?
Today is technically our ninth anniversary. We discussed it last week and both decided it was weird and didn't seem right to celebrate so the day is passing without celebration. I feel ok about it so far. I'm already behind on my to do list and have dance classes tonight so keeping busy.

Thursday is BF's birthday. I'm keeping it small and simple. In the past I've put a lot of thought and energy into the day when he doesn't really care. My birthday is really important to me so I tried to do the same but it doesn't matter to him. So this year I'm getting him a plant (he really does want one, it's to replace the one he had to give up two moves ago) and going out to dinner at a casual place of his choosing. I am still baking cupcakes because that's tradition. He picked a recipe from the Martha Stewart cupcake book that's fairly complicated but I'll give it a shot! Going to drop them off at his office in the afternoon and go out to lunch with my friend so it's not all about BF.
pearl,

Good idea to just discuss the anniversary thing with BF. Since you both agreed on it being weird, it's probably good to let it slide this time. Who knows where you'll be next year?

As a guy, I feel a little uneasy about the plant gift for his b'day, but I trust you when you say he really does want one! wink So how did the b'day go? How are you feeling in general about BF now?
Hi Sam! Thanks for checking in.

I did bring up the anniversary a few days later and I honestly think we're on the same page about it. BF said, "We did go out to dinner!" because we went for cheap tacos after dance class to meet up with my workout buddies.

He did love the plant! laugh We still have to figure out where exactly to put it so the cats don't chew on it as it's toxic to kitties. Overall the bd was mixed. The super fancy cupcakes I tried to bake were a disaster so I had to scrap them and head back out to the grocery store for a box mix. Those turned out great and when I brought them to the office I passed them out without mentioning the occasion--BF does not like to be the center of attention so I'm trying to play it according to what he wants. Went out to dinner and I picked up the check, usually BF pays for meals out according to our arrangement. Came home and had some quality naked time so the day ended well. wink

In general I'm feeling good about where we are and where we're headed. If I stop and think about it too much I get worried that it seems too easy. But I'm trying to just take things as they come.

BF mentioned over the weekend that he wants me to book a two week vacation to Scotland next year. Have to do it now because we will use frequent flyer miles. I'm excited about the trip because I've been wanting to go back to Scotland--we were supposed to go for New Year's but I cancelled due to the bomb/A. I'm not having any negative thoughts about it yet but will have to see how the holiday season (anniversary of bombs) goes this year.
Hi pearl!

LOL about BF saying "we went out for dinner!"! That's guy anniversary thought: going out with buddies to a taco place... smile

Bday sounded good for both you and him! Good job on the give and take there! It's probably a good idea to just take it as you go without too much worry about the long term goals of the R. When you feel good about how things are now, you'll probably continue evolving in that direction. I especially like BF's idea of a vacation. It shows he's in it for the long run and that's a good sign!

Hope you're having fun at the same time!
Hey Pearl!

Just trying to catch up. Sounds like you're in a good place. I'm so happy for you!

Looks like I'm headed for the big D. Or let me re-phrase that - H is getting his coveted D, but not til the terms are as close to what I want as possible.

He moved in with Catbitch in May. He's jobless, broke, and has been very sick all summer. Hope he's happy!!

Do you ever hear from Tawyna? Tell her hello and I hope she's doing well.

Take care.
Hi Silver

Have you been posting lately? Thought I was following your thread but I'll double check. I haven't talked a whole lot to Tawnya lately but I did pass on your message. Hope you've been enjoying your summer as much as possible. I tried a ballet class but I think at this age my joints just don't bend that way.

Update:

I decided to check BF's work email tonight on a whim. First off found that the password was changed but I think they have to change it every certain number of days. I figured it out and nothing to or from OW. I did however find a few messages to another woman in the permanent delete folder. They sound very flirty to me and I'm not sure why they are the only ones in that folder other than routine reports.

My stomach is in knots and I'm on the verge of tears. BF has been asleep for an hour and I don't want to wake him up but I also don't want to let this fester because I know I'll be all worked up by tomorrow.

We're having a party for his entire department and their families on Saturday. I'm having major flashbacks to last summer's party for work people when OW was at our house.

Ok, think I'll go wake him up and get this over with.
Well that did not go well.

I woke him up and asked who she is.

A consultant on the old project.

And why are you flirting with her via email and trying to hide it?

Blink, blink. Pause. I didn't want you to get upset over nothing.

Well, if you're hiding it then you know you crossed a line and if there's nothing to hide then you wouldn't do it. For the thousandth time, actions speak louder than words and your actions scream guilt. I feel like it's last November when I asked if there was someone else and you lied to my face. We're back at square one and I can't trust anything you say.

Part of me thinks I'm overreacting because I'm stressed out about the party and it's bringing back some ugly memories. Part of me does not want to be played for a fool yet again. I can't and won't go through all of that again. I don't want to spend the rest of my life wondering what's going on at work.

So now I'm downstairs in the guest room crying and trying to decide what to do next. I went back into his email and found another string of flirty messages from July 24. Nothing else to or from her besides that since March. So BF has definitely deleted more, I just wasn't looking for the right name. I was looking for OW1 not even thinking there was OW2 in the wings.
Posted By: hhh Re: Swimming against the current - PH in piecing - 08/22/09 09:33 PM
Hi Pearl,
You've been so helpful to me on my thread I wanted to check in with you and say hello, now that I see your updates. I am sorry about the weird exchange..any new info?

BTW did you guys go to counseling after you got back together? Or have you ever in the past? Perhaps it would help. Also curious, did you ever discuss getting married? Do you think there are commitment issues there?

Obviously i'm not the best to give advice, and am new to your most recent story - just wanted to say that I admire your strength and the confidence you have shown...and know your own self-worth!!

We're all rooting for you here!
((hugs))
hhh, thanks for stopping by. Will answer your questions first.

No, we haven't been to counseling. We worked through the exercises in After the Affair but kind of let things slide when the schedule got busy. I did it consciously because I wanted to live more in the moment and not push so much for conversation. I'm now thinking that maybe it is time for the structure of counseling although I'm not sure what else I want to get from it. We did go to a couple counseling sessions early on but BF was completely wrapped up in his affair and not ready or willing to get anything out of it. I saw the counselor several times by myself but stopped going when he made it clear he thought I should walk away and never look back. Perhaps in the end he will be right but I was uncomfortable with his pronouncement of absolutes.

Marriage discussions...well, yes and no. My position on marriage has always been that people get so wrapped up in the wedding and lose sight of the relationship and I was not going to do that. Plus we're not having children and that's usually why people get married. We always said we're together because we want to, not because we have to. Over the years I have had times when I wanted to get married but didn't bring it up because BF was so vocally opposed (i.e. when finding out his guy friends were getting married he gave them a hard time). But now he insists that he is not opposed to it, he just thought I did not want it. Talk about lack of communication. So now he says he's here to stay forever. I don't doubt his commitment but we have not really discussed marriage again. I have decided that I do want to get married but recent events make me pause.

Update:
Friday morning I left for my daily walk while BF was getting ready for work. Thought he might realize that this was a serious sitch and wait for me to get home but he was gone, no note, nothing. BF called during the day as if nothing was wrong. I was furious and my curtness relayed that message. He said he wanted to talk when he got home and asked if I would be there or if I had other plans. My only plans were getting everything ready for the party for his employees.

He came home early bearing flowers and the first words out of his mouth were an apology. He knows what he did was wrong looking at it from my perspective and he won't do it again. Pause. I think he was expecting me to melt and say that's ok but I didn't. I asked about the other exchange I had found and he said he didn't think it was flirty, just friendly. Yes, it doesn't appear to be inappropriate but the fact that he tried to hide them screams guilt. He said since I had thought his exchange with another female coworker looked suspicious he wanted to avoid a scene. Not acceptable.

I told him this is not a small thing, this is the straw that may break the camel's back. I feel like I cannot trust him and we are back at square one. I will not go through all of this again. He said he feels like we're headed down the right path and our bumps in the road are fewer and far between. Yes, but I do not want to think, gee, it's been four months since he's had inappropriate communication with a coworker--maybe it will be six months until I discover the next one! Not good enough. I do not want to spend the rest of my life wondering what is going on with any of the hundreds of women he deals with at work.

I told him I need a few days to figure out what I want to do. I ended up thawing a bit towards him and things feel back to normal now. But I have shied away from intimate contact because I do not feel like I can connect like that with him right now.

My gut tells me that he's not cheating and that he really wants to be with me. It also tells me that it's not fair to either one of us to move forward if I cannot find a way to trust him again.

He had a surprise day planned for this Friday that he ended up telling me about so we'll see how that goes. Then I'm heading home for a week before he flies up to join me for a weekend getaway for Labor Day weekend. Guess it's just one day at a time for now.
pearl,

Got caught up last night with something else. Just reading now, and seeing the latest developments.

I know how your stomach will just knot up when this kind of stuff appears. I'm sorry to hear that! I think you are right about the fact that somehow you will need to regain trust in him to move forward and you will need his help for that. Right now, he's kind of sabotaging this process and it takes a long time to get past these things. And you have told him that it sounds like.

Your gut telling you he's not cheating is already proof of some level of trust from your side. However, I can completely understand how your stomach just sinks into your shoes when you see these emails. I guess in the end it is about BF understanding what you consider inappropriate contact.
That's the thing Sam, BF knows exactly what I consider inappropriate because I've spelled it out multiple times. That's what frustrates/pisses me off. He realized what he was doing was wrong and instead of just owning up to it and saying he made a mistake he tried to hide it and deny it. More deception, more lies. I'm just so tired of dealing with the same crap.

I'm feeling like he is either unable or unwilling to be open and honest with me. I do not want to feel responsible for constantly checking up on him and asking what's going on, only to be met by a response like, "Oops, yeah, I knew that was bad but I didn't want to upset you so I just tried to cover it up and hope you wouldn't find out. Since you did, all I can do is apologize and point out that it's been a long time since the last time I did this."

Grrr.
Yep, that's exactly what he's doing. He's going to have to realize that it will take a few months of you snooping and finding nothing to put your mind at ease that there really is nothing. He needs to understand that. I am sure you have already told him this in a lot of different ways, but it hasn't sunken in apparently.
No, it hasn't sunk in and I'm just tired of all the excuses. But it appears that it's up to me now--I have to accept the excuses if I want to move forward with BF. I'm very resentful that the burden is back on me to be the bigger person yet again. I have a feeling all this resentment is going to build up and I'm going to explode.
Originally Posted By: Sam1007
Yep, that's exactly what he's doing. He's going to have to realize that it will take a few months of you snooping and finding nothing to put your mind at ease that there really is nothing. He needs to understand that. I am sure you have already told him this in a lot of different ways, but it hasn't sunken in apparently.


I personally think that pearl shouldn't have to snoop and that is her point. He should be blatantly open about things in order to show that he has nothing to hide. How long is she going to have to snoop because he chooses to keep hiding things? He knows what is inappropriate and tells her that he knows and chooses to hide it instead of communicating it. I don't think I could live like that day in and day out with the constant wondering if what comes out of his mouth is the truth or his omission filled version. Trust is so important and it seems the more she communicates to him what she needs for him to build that trust the more he hides. This reminds me very much of my situation. My STBXH cheated on me prior to us getting married. He said he did it because he was scared and didn't know if he was ready to be married, but that him cheating showed him how much he loved me and didn't want to lose me. He was very open at first. Then it became how long are you going to hang onto this. I finally got to a point where I trusted him and then found out he was cheating on me with my bestfriend(now ex bestfriend). I just have a difficult time believing that this leopard is ever going to change his spots. His actions show so much more than his words. He talks a very good game and knows how to say I'm sorry and give flowers, when all pearl wants is for him to SHOW her he means what he says by being open and honest with her. The fact that he continues to flirt and behave inappropriately and know that it hurts her raises so many red flags. I'd have to sit back and do some serious thinking about if I want my future to include the paranoia that comes with having to snoop on the person who I am supposed to be able to trust more than anyone else in the world. Just my 2 cents.
Hi Pearl,

I haven't posted to you before but I have followed your story with great interest. Your's is one that made me decide to go gucci.

Although your situation is different, your BF has some characteristics that remind me of mine - the lame, non-wooing approaches, the hiding things because it would just upset me.

It might be that the gucci method does get them coming back your way, but then you might realize you don't want them.

Hang in there. Don't settle for less than the best.
Hi there GTFM, thanks for stopping by--haven't seen you around much in a while.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I shouldn't have to snoop anymore and I definitely don't want to live like this for the rest of my life. Both of which I have told BF. He sounds remorseful but I'm back at the beginning of not believing anything he says.

It's frustrating because when I told him this in April (don't believe what you say because you've proven yourself a liar) his response was "I understand. You need to see actions and I will prove I'm serious over time." But then he does this knowing full well that the actions looked suspect at best. Grrr.

On the one hand he seems sincere in wanting to work on the R and doing the work (i.e. reading After the Affair and doing the exercises, continued open discussions). On the other hand, it feels like he's only willing to do so much (as much as he deems necessary) and that's not enough in my book.

So I'm faced with deciding how much I'm going to lower my expectations. Are they too high? I don't think so. How much do I want to be in this R? Enough to live with a series of "oops" actions? I don't think so. But one of my problems is laziness and it is much easier to stay than to face the great unknown and start over.

Well, I'm going to enjoy this week with my friends and see how the weekend goes with BF. When I decided to give reconciliation a shot I told myself that I would give it the summer and reevaluate after Labor Day.
Hi Dudess

I commented on your thread too. Yep, it definitely works but by the time they come back we may decide they're not good enough for us!

Thanks for the support smile
Hi, gorgeous!

I randomly swung by here, curious as to whether I recognized any names, but so far only yours and a couple of others.

I realized I hadn't asked about your situation either, but it looks like some positives and negatives. Do you think that perhaps that BF just has a certain personality, and that's it? As opposed to expecting some sort of "change" - maybe that's just it?

I have personally experienced drastic and visible changes - people that previously supported my STBXW have come full-circle, and comment on how different I am. I don't see that same change in BF, especially considering that he is the one that made the most egregious mistake in having the affair.

My STBXW hasn't really made ANY changes almost at all, but expends a tremendous amount of effort in justifying her mistakes, to the point, really, where it has become the norm for her. Once an affairee desensitize themselves enough, I think they lose perspective, and rather than being truly regretful, they simply want you to quit bugging them...

I think that is the difference between true love, and just society's definition of love. I still, sadly, love my STBXW, and hope for her happiness - and I felt that way before the separation and affair. I wonder if she's ever felt love in her life.

If you've never truly loved (and I mean REAL love, not Hollywood love), how can you have suffered loss? Is that BF?
Hello handsome!

I do think that's part of it. BF is the way he is and am I willing to accept it or is it not enough? I think I'm still strugging because I haven't seen as much effort that I believe he's capable of. I know he's not the romantic type but he did make some gestures in our early days so I know he could think of things to do but he isn't. He does insist that things are different now, better because we're communicating and we understand each other better. That's true, but I just can't shake the little nagging feeling that it's not enough.

But then I think that I haven't made all the changes I need to make yet either (ahem, job). And life isn't perfect. And I do have high expectations. Perhaps too high?
Originally Posted By: goingtofixME
Originally Posted By: Sam1007
Yep, that's exactly what he's doing. He's going to have to realize that it will take a few months of you snooping and finding nothing to put your mind at ease that there really is nothing. He needs to understand that. I am sure you have already told him this in a lot of different ways, but it hasn't sunken in apparently.


I personally think that pearl shouldn't have to snoop and that is her point. He should be blatantly open about things in order to show that he has nothing to hide. How long is she going to have to snoop because he chooses to keep hiding things?


I agree with you GTFM. I didn't word my post very well. She shouldn't have to snoop, but she still feels the need to snoop and it will take some snooping and finding nothing to build the trust to the point where she feels comfortable with BF saying there is nothing.

pearl, I couldn't tell you if your expectations for a R/M are too high or too low. I am sure you imagine your ideal R/M as something, maybe by watching other couples, maybe by imagining how things could be. But you also said that you still need to make some changes yourself. Are you making yourself happy? I guess what I am wondering is: are you somehow (partially) relying on BF to make you happy?

Please understand that I am not saying nothing's wrong with BF! He needs to make changes and right now he's procrastinating/avoiding that. But I am merely suspecting that you are, at least in part, also unhappy with the way your life is going right now even if BF wasn't in the picture. Food for thought?
pearl? Hope the silence means you're having a good time!!
Did you have a good time? How are things going? I'm waiting to see if my wasband remembers what day it is??? I have no expectations...but STILL you would think???
Phew! Just getting caught up on everyone else's threads.

Vacation was great for the most part. Spent a couple days staying with my BFF and her H and S1, saw some other girlfriends and had dinner with my family (that was the not so great part but had to be done). Then BFF and I took a little girls' road trip that included boutique shopping, catching my favorite rock star's concert and totally awesome doughnuts. Back in my home town I caught up with my old coworkers before BF flew in and we took off for the long weekend.

BF got major points for letting me drag him to another concert by my fave rock star considering 1) that was the third show I went to in a week and 2) BF does not like rock star's music. The rest of the weekend was spent shopping and eating in visiting city and home town (around our old neighborhood). We stopped and chatted with a girlfriend who was friends with BF and was furious with him when all this went down. She was friendly toward him so it went well. I didn't think she'd be rude but thought she might be a bit cooler.

Toward the end of the flight home last night I was scrolling through my old text messages and I saw the messages from when I first found out about OW. All the emotion came back and I remembered how horrible that time was. So we landed around midnight and as I'm sitting with the bags waiting for BF to come back with the truck I'm struck by the feeling that this relationship is not going anywhere. I don't know that I will ever trust him again. He still hasn't asked for forgiveness and I'm not sure I could give it. It's like we're both trying to just go back to normal but the doubts are still there. Then I think that I'm only here because it's comfortable and safe and wondering if that's enough. Sometimes I think it is. Last night all I wanted to do was get on another plane to SF and start over. Then I think if I do that I'm resigning myself to being alone forever because I'm too old to start over and I'm not good at making new friends. But I don't want to settle either and maybe I would be happier living in a hovel in SF than a beautiful house in Denver. But it's not like I'm miserable here, just content. And lots of people would kill for content.

Sigh.

Maybe I'm just lacking sleep.

I had a whole plan last night. Go to an individual counselor to work through these issues and see if I'm just freaking out right now or if I really need to move on. Make the job search 50/50 for SF/Denver and see what pans out. Start purging my crap in preparation to move.

Another sigh. It's been a roller coaster...
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
He still hasn't asked for forgiveness . .


No? That would seem to be a major oversight.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Then I think that I'm only here because it's comfortable and safe and wondering if that's enough. Sometimes I think it is. Last night all I wanted to do was get on another plane to SF and start over. Then I think if I do that I'm resigning myself to being alone forever because I'm too old to start over


LOL. You are a mere 35 years old. That's a great age to start over.

Your life expectancy is another 47 years. Do you really want to settle for comfortable and safe? I've got 15 years on you and I'm not going to settle. And yes, my economic standard of living will drop considerably.

Life is to be lived, not endured.
His reasoning before when I brought up the forgiveness thing is that he didn't feel like he had the right to ask for it yet. So I said fair enough, I'm not going to worry about giving it until you do ask. This was a couple months ago.

And yes, when I'm thinking rationally and with PMA I know that I could start over fairly easily. But as I'm always apprehensive, will it really be any better? Different, yes. But better? Am I giving up a really good life for a crap shoot to end up with either a fantastic life or a mediocre life? And this current life with BF could be fantastic, I'm just not fully convinced.

Ok, I'm crying just typing this. I need to get in the shower and then to tap class! BF is doing his last fantasy football draft so I can call my BFF and have some girl talk.
Hey Pearl,

Thanks so much for keeping up with my thread. Your support and advice mean a lot.

In catching up with yours I think Sam is the one that cuts to the chase and the one you need to ponder the most:
Quote:
pearl, I couldn't tell you if your expectations for a R/M are too high or too low. I am sure you imagine your ideal R/M as something, maybe by watching other couples, maybe by imagining how things could be. But you also said that you still need to make some changes yourself. Are you making yourself happy? I guess what I am wondering is: are you somehow (partially) relying on BF to make you happy?

Please understand that I am not saying nothing's wrong with BF! He needs to make changes and right now he's procrastinating/avoiding that. But I am merely suspecting that you are, at least in part, also unhappy with the way your life is going right now even if BF wasn't in the picture. Food for thought?

Listen to your gut. Those nagging doubts are trying to tell you something. It doesn't mean the two of you won't make it but Sam is right in that YOU have to make yourself happy first, then focus on BF. I think your plan to see a therapist on your own is a good start.
Thanks Silver

To answer you and Sam (wasn't ignoring you Sam, vacation got in the way) I have been thinking about this. Yes, I am unhappy with the work aspect of my life but I know that is my own issue and BF has nothing to do with that. I need to throw myself into the job search and I know that I will feel better about myself once I'm gainfully employed.

That aside, as I told my BFF earlier today, it's about whether or not I can be happy in a R if I don't completely trust BF. That's what I want to work through with an IC. Now if only I could find one.
Journal:

Not much has changed. BF and I had it out when I learned that he took OW on a ski trip with his brother and sil last winter. At that time I assumed he would take her (I took my lift ticket from the ones he had purchased for this trip, if he wanted to take her then he can damn well buy her another one and not use the one meant for me!) but to have it confirmed just set me off. I was so pissed that he didn't think that taking her to meet his family was important enough to tell me.

For some reason I'm stuck on this issue again today. I woke up just fine but while I was making BF's lunch I was overcome with loathing just thinking about this.

I don't think I'm strong enough to make it through piecing. I thought I would be further along by now, not still crying at something that happened almost a year ago. And as the anniversaries of the bomb dropping, finding out about the EA/PA, etc are fast approaching I sense the old pain returning and I don't want any of it.

I'm tired of having the urge to check his cell phone and wondering when a number I don't recognize turns up on the call log. I'm tired of checking his email and knowing that he damn well knows how to erase things so there's really no point. I'm tired of looking at the women in his office wondering who will be the next OW. I'm tired of driving past the places I know he took OW. I'm just plain tired of all of it.

Part of me just wants to chuck it all and start fresh somewhere new. I know there's no guarantee I would have a better life without BF, but at least it would be different. Is it the grass-is-greener syndrome? Or is this my gut telling me to get out now?
pearl,

I'm sorry you are going through this pain. I really can't imagine what that must be like. I'm hurting just from my H's suspected, attempted infidelity.

I would suggest not making any decisions based on what DID happen during the affair, but rather based on what has happened since he ended it. When you decided to give it a shot again, you must have thought that you would be able to forgive him and put this behind you in time, right? I can understand if that turned out not to be the case despite your good faith. Naturally anniversaries and such will hurt and would still hurt even if he had been the most repentent, total turnaround guy ever.

As you said, you had assumed that he would be taking her on that ski trip. That your suspicion has been confirmed, doesn't change the probable future course of the relationship. (Doesn't make it not hurt either.)

That said, I do share your concerns about the way he seems to have weasled and waffled about so many things. Perhaps he hasn't blatantly lied, but he sure has shaded the truth, hidden the truth and omitted relevant information. That would concern me more in terms of making decisions about the future than what he did last winter.

I don't recall, are you two in MC or is he in IC?
Originally Posted By: Dudess
When you decided to give it a shot again, you must have thought that you would be able to forgive him and put this behind you in time, right?


No, not exactly. I thought I probably would be able to forgive him but not certain. I have told him all along that I was willing to try but there are no guarantees and at the end of the day if I couldn't get past it then we would end things. Trouble is I'm not sure where I am in that process now, somewhere in the middle or close to the end?

You're right, something that I already assumed to be true in the past doesn't change things now. But the fact that he tried to avoid telling me the whole truth about it does matter. Which is what I told him when he got home tonight.

Here's a replay of the original convo:

BF and I are discussing skiing this winter and where/how often we would like to go up. I have previously told him that I will not go to places he took OW. So I asked:

Where did you go skiing with OW?

Mountain Resort A. (I knew this is where he took her over New Years)

[Pause]

Is that all?

[Blank stare.]

What about the trip with Brother and SIL?

[Silence. Blink. Blink.]

That was Mountain Resort B.

And did OW go with you?

No, she met us up there for the day.

So she was there?

[Pause.]

Yes.

You introduced her to your family--took her on a family vacation--and didn't feel that was something important I should know?

I didn't take her on vacation, she met us up there.

Did she spend the night?

[Pause]

Yes.

Then you took her on a family vacation, a family vacation that I was supposed to be on. Nice.

[End scene.]

[Tonight he said it was the "in between time" as if that's supposed to make a difference. No, he wasn't thinking about how it would affect me or us at that point. (That's fair, I get that.) He isn't just sorry about introducing her to his family, he's sorry about everything. Well that's nice but it doesn't really mean anything to me. It doesn't address the fact that I will have to see Brother and SIL at the next family gathering knowing that they met the whore and now wonder if they liked her better than me. I resent the fact that I'm supposed to just accept that the past is the past and he can't change it now. Convenient excuse/explanation for everything he did and I can't dispute it. But back to the main issue.]

And so it goes. I feel like I'm pulling teeth, like he is only going to answer the most specific question I ask and skirt around anything he either thinks I don't want to hear or that he doesn't want to tell me. No, he insists he isn't doing that and he insists that there's nothing else to tell. But I feel like this is an iceberg and I only know a small percentage of what there is, there is a huge mountain just beneath the surface waiting to be discovered. And each discovery rips the scabs off and I have to start the healing all over again. One of these days I'm going to be too tired to start over and I'll just be happy to walk away and live with the scars.

Originally Posted By: Dudess
I don't recall, are you two in MC or is he in IC?

None of the above. I'm looking into finding an IC for myself but he doesn't feel that we need MC or that he needs IC. I could insist on MC but I don't see the point unless I know that I want this R to work out, and that's something I don't know right now.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
He isn't just sorry about introducing her to his family, he's sorry about everything. Well that's nice but it doesn't really mean anything to me. It doesn't address the fact that I will have to see Brother and SIL at the next family gathering knowing that they met the whore and now wonder if they liked her better than me. . . .

. . . And so it goes. I feel like I'm pulling teeth, like he is only going to answer the most specific question I ask and skirt around anything he either thinks I don't want to hear or that he doesn't want to tell me.


Pearl,

No offense, but if the above is how you react when he does, I would probably feel the same way.

As I've posted to you before, if I were your BF, I would feel like I'm in an impossible, "can't-win-with-you" situation. I think it's right and appropriate to hold him accountable for what he does NOW, but to forever hold him in some sort of ex post facto infidelity prison, for what happened BEFORE, seems very unfair to me. He's loving, remorseful (remember, somewhere around HALF of BSs don't even get contrition or remorse) and reasonably transparent with you.

And keep in mind, I'm a formerly betrayed spouse, too!

Puppy
Pearl,
Hi!! I dont remember if have posted to you before...

I dont know if you are aware of the book mentioned often here :Not just friendsby S Glass. It talks about affairs and recovering and healing after one.

The author stresses many times thru her book (and the critics say it's one of the best on the subject) that when info about the affair is disclosed in parts it actually hinders healing.

She makes it very clear that unless the story of the affair is out, no secrets, no hidden details remain, the wound will not heal. She makes a point about how crucial it is for the partner that had the A to volunteer info until the hurt partner is happy with it. VOLUNTEER. When you ask and THEN get bits and pieces, you get all these feelings of resntement and hurt and mistrust again.

So, what I am trying to say is that it seems you are normal and NOT that you cant forgive but that the way you are dealing with the issue doesnt allow you to. Your BF needs to realise that.

You said he thinks you dont need MC but maybe he could read at least that one chapter of this book that may help him see what his actions or non actions cause to you and the risk he is taking.

It's actually simple but people tend to be secretive about details because they are afraid they will hurt their partner more and because of guilt and shame. Maybe if he realises that the sooner you get what you need regarding the affair, the sooner you will leave it behind, he would be willing to try and do his part.

Of course your part would be to control your reactions so that he can feel safe he can disclose more without worrying of loosing/hurting you...

Stay strong, you can do this. It is hard and you need better tools. Get the book if you havent gotten it. It is worth its money. Believe me.
K

I felt I had to post because the feelings and incidents you describe are all in the book as what you should not do and it is very common when couples try to recover. Do me a favor and read this authors site if you cant get the book. Michelle highly recommends it.
That IS a phenomenal book. The gold standard on the subject of EAs.

Puppy
Not JUST EAs though Puppy. It's great describing what you face AFTER the A is disclosed and all the steps you need to take IF you want to reconcile...
Pearl, you must read it.
K
Puppy and Kalni, thanks for your input.

Puppy, I didn't say that out loud but I don't know how to stop the thoughts from running through my head. Yes, once the initial shock of confirmation had passed I realized that I can't be upset about it now. What I am upset about is the fact that he never told me about it before now. I know you think my expectations are too high and honestly, I remind myself of that on a regular basis. Where I struggle is wondering if I really need to lower them or if what he is doing, his supposed best, is ever going to be enough.

Kalni, we have both read Not Just Friends and worked through the exercises. That was the compromise on not going to MC. So yes, he knows exactly what you pointed out, that he needs to volunteer that information and be extremely forthcoming in answering my questions. But he hasn't done that, as evidenced by this latest incident. And his excuse is always the same: I didn't think you meant that or it never occurred to me that you'd want to know that.

It's a common pattern in his behavior throughout this entire reconciliation process. I spell out exactly what I expect, he violates my boundaries, I call him on it, and he responds with, "Well, I know you said 1-10 but I didn't think that included 4!" Then I tailspin into wondering if my expectations are too high, am I looking for reasons to be angry, etc. But when I calm down and can view things rationally I do believe my expectations are fine and he is simply NOT doing all he can despite his protestations to the contrary. He is just doing enough and that may be fine for further down the road but not now. I do not want things to slip even further from here.
Why do you think he does that?

It sounds to me, yoru expectations are not high. I am just not sure he realises the importance of what you need. Can you make him see that?
Ohhh and how do you react when he tell you? That seems to be important of creating a pattern in their way of thinking :
"oops she got hurt/mad/upset/cold. Note to brain :forget the details from now on"
How do I react? In the early days I think I was a bit emotional but not too bad. At that point the dam of tears had burst (I didn't cry during the A, just went numb) and lots of things set me to weeping. Actually, that is more my normal state, I'm a crier in general (movies, commercials, songs, books, you name it) and I even cry when I get very angry, it just manifests that way. So BF is used to seeing my tears. And I did explain that while all of this is hurtful, it's not as bad as it may look and what I really needed was to know the truth. The two recent instances I was a lot more upset because both involved him trying to hide something from me that I discovered anyway. I told him during his A that the lying hurt me more than the cheating and I resented him treating me as if I were stupid because I did know the truth. So what I am reacting to is his lying (omission and/or hiding things) and his blase attitude when I call him on it.

Does he just want to avoid upsetting me? Yes. But again, he knows (we discussed this early in our R) that I tend to have an emotional first reaction to get it all out and done with instead of holding onto it. He is the total opposite. I have tried over the years to lessen the dramatics (no more door slamming) but I do need to continue on working toward a lot less emotional reaction. And also, we have discussed on more than one occasion that a) my reaction at finding out he is lying to me or hiding things from me yet again is going to cause a much worse reaction, and b) he doesn't have the right to decide what details I get to know. If I ask a question I expect a full, honest answer because eventually I will discover the truth.

So I don't know what else I can/should do to make him get how important this is. I've been a broken record stating my expectations and the rationale behind them. He just doesn't get it or feels that it's not really that important. And I am reaching the end of my rope.
Another contributing factor is that I haven't asked a lot of specific questions because I'm not sure what exactly I need to know. Perhaps that is the place to start, write out a list and just suck it up for one big hurtfest.
Journal:

There's been a shift.

A couple tearful breakdowns and yet another conversation about asking for forgiveness, BF finally (although seemingly begrudgingly) asked for forgiveness. I scoffed, it sounded like a small child being told to apologize for hitting someone so he did. And at that point I told BF I probably could forgive him for the A but couldn't forgive him for taking so damn long to ask for forgiveness. I said we need to go to counseling because I am tired of feeling like I am/we are stuck and not moving forward.

Then things went back to "normal" and nothing was said for a week or so. And I can feel the resentment building up again, that things aren't normal yet and we're just going back into old an not good patterns of not talking.

But things did change. We argued about planning a vacation. BF went up to bed but came back down to talk about it because he didn't want to go to bed with things unresolved. So we talked, realized we weren't getting anywhere with the convo, but it felt better because we talked. The vacation got planned the following day and we both appreciated the other's way of thinking.

A couple days ago was the anniversary of the first bomb: the "I'm not happy and haven't been for the last five years" talk. I made it through the day with only a few twinges and didn't mention it to BF. I'm nervous about going into the anniversay season--last year at this time you were X, Y, Z. I'm trying to approach it without dwelling or wallowing but I'm not confident I'll be completely successful.

Last night BF said let's talk. I had a small flutter in my heart, that small twinge of fear. He said it's not bad. He wanted to restate that he's sorry for everything he's put me through. He asked for forgiveness for the affair and also for taking so long to ask for forgiveness. Then he went on to talk about our sex life which was a major reason behind the affair. He feels like a huge weight has lifted and now he's enjoying just cuddling without it having to lead to anything more. That was one of my complaints in the past but recently has been an area of concern that I hadn't voiced. I feel like I've been initiating all the time and worried that he wasn't initiating because something was wrong. It was so good to hear his reasons and find out they're good. It was so good to know that we were talking about things and feel like we're getting closer.

I'm still a little ambivalent about our future. But in the past week I decided to just move forward as if we're going to make it. I have to make a decision and stick to it, either let this R go and explore the greener grass option or commit to this R and work on it. So I'm choosing this R and working on making it the best possible R for me and for us.
smile smile smile

Hugs,


Puppy
Thanks Pup!

Now off to listen to one of my favorite musicals, Damn Yankees!
I'm glad to hear there has been a shift Pearl. At least there is movement in the right direction.

Do you feel like you finally got a heartful apology and request for forgiveness?

The 'anniversary season' probably will be difficult. Maybe some of the veterans can guide you about the best way to handle it.
Hi Dudess

Yes, I do think the request for forgiveness was genuine and heartfelt. And this conversation felt different which gives me hope.

How are you doing? I've been thinking about you. Have you moved into the apt? Going out and having fun?
Hey Pearl,

Just wanted to thank you for your posts. You're one of the few who offers support. Not sure why others on the MLC forum ignore me. It was kind of a bust from the beginning. Maybe I should move back to Newcomers!

"The Shift" sounds promising. Glad he's starting to realize why forgiveness will help you both to move forward.

Regards,
SF
You and me both Silver. I don't get anyone from Piecing over here but then again I don't post on their threads either. It feels like intruding because people have been here so long. I'm still the shy kid and don't want to ask to join the group.

Yep, that conversation really changed the way I'm looking at things. It finally felt like he was trying 100%. And that's what I've been looking for all this time. So I told him last night that it truly meant a lot to me. Now instead of looking at this as if we get past this I'm thinking when we get past this. I think he teared up but couldn't really tell since we were in bed with the lights out.

I'm still bothered by the fact that he never begged or pleaded or really went all out to win me back. But I let it happen that way so I'll have to just accept it and move on.

I'm off to check out your sitch.
Guys,
start posting to people if you need some movement/input in your post. I find myself hesitant to post to others I havent followed their sitch from the beginning.
Pearl, if you fell a shift, then there is definitele a shift. Dont waste the "moment" . Build on it. Think positively.
K
Kalni,

Thanks for that. Yeah, I know I should post on others' threads but I feel the same way, I don't want to pop in at this point without having followed from the beginning. But it's fine, I'm just swimming along.
Journal:

It's been one year since I started posting here. Part of me wants to go back and read through it, but the rest of me knows just how painful that would be.

So much has happened and yet so much more needs to happen.

I realized that I don't need this relationship to survive. I thought it would kill me (or at least my spirit) to have to start over but then I found myself sad that I wouldn't be starting over on my own. I have started new hobbies and made some good friends through them. I have lost the friend who got me through the worst of this sitch because she didn't approve of me giving BF another chance.

I am one of the lucky ones, not stuck in limbo for a long time. I can't imagine living in the worst stage for as long as some people here have been and continue to do. And I still have days when I wonder if I'm doing the right thing.

We seem to just be moving along at status quo without any growth or movement forward until I threaten to leave. Then BF does one good thing and I am placated for a while. That's not the way I want to live the rest of my life. Which I have told him. And he says he understands but goes back to the same old behaviors. Until the next time.

And I don't push it because I think I should be more patient. Or am I just being lazy because it's more comfortable to be together than apart?

More things to ponder as a new year approaches.
Hi pearlhbr-

I don't have any wisdom to offer, but wanted to give you my love as you contemplate the past year and think about how to move forward.

thanks for your advice on my posts. I wish you good contemplation and wisdom.
I don't know - just a thought about this:
Quote:
And he says he understands but goes back to the same old behaviors. Until the next time.

He's perhaps figured out what it takes to keep you around? Like he's on auto pilot or something.

I've read that piecing is the hardest one - harder than the breakup, the limbo, or even a D. That's a good question about patience vs. pushing. These people in PIECING should be helping you out and I don't understand why they're not!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
It's been one year since I started posting here. Part of me wants to go back and read through it, but the rest of me knows just how painful that would be.


I've read quite a bit of your first threads. There is a lot of pain there, but that's not all there is. Beginning in late January, yours is a very inspiring story. You're my shero!

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I realized that I don't need this relationship to survive. I thought it would kill me (or at least my spirit) to have to start over but then I found myself sad that I wouldn't be starting over on my own.


Sounds like a good place to be.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I have lost the friend who got me through the worst of this sitch because she didn't approve of me giving BF another chance.


That sucks. I've never understood why a 'friend' would do that.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I am one of the lucky ones, not stuck in limbo for a long time.


It wasn't luck Pearl. You decided you would not live in limbo.


Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
We seem to just be moving along at status quo without any growth or movement forward until I threaten to leave. Then BF does one good thing and I am placated for a while. That's not the way I want to live the rest of my life. Which I have told him. And he says he understands but goes back to the same old behaviors. Until the next time.


He gives you just enough to keep you leaving. Ugh.

What is it you want that he isn't giving you?
Thanks Av, Silver & Dudess

We're fighting right now. Sigh. One of those little arguments that happen in daily life. We went our separate ways for the afternoon and when I came home he apologized for overreacting. But I couldn't forgive him. I'm still pissed off and I'm not sure why. I think it's because I don't think he's sorry about the argument, he's sorry I'm mad. Now he's upstairs in the bedroom pouting and I'm downstairs seething.

Are we ever going to learn how to work these things out like adults?

What do I want BF to do that he's not doing? To step up. To do the things we discuss instead of putting it off until I bring it up for the third or fourth time (make a counseling appointment). To make an effort. Or to paraphrase The Breakup, I want him to want to do the dishes.

Another issue is that I'm still suffering from grass-is-greener syndrome. Before the bomb I never would have questioned that he was the person I wanted to be with for the rest of my life. But now, after the betrayal, after being on my own for a very brief period of time, after finding out men are still interested in me, I wonder if there's someone better suited to me. Someone who won't just throw everything away and run into the arms of a whore because he's unhappy and doesn't have the balls to say anything to me.

What really gets me is when I see someone who I haven't seen since last winter. They ask about me moving to SF because that was the plan. Then I tell them I'm staying put for the time being because I'm back with BF. They look shocked. And I understand. I want to tell them he begged and pleaded to come back but that's not true. I feel like I took him back too easily so no wonder he thinks he can put everything off until I threaten to leave then make minmal effort to placate me until I lose it the next time.

I like my life. It's comfortable. BF and I have history. Are those the reasons I'm staying? Because it's a lot of work to start over on my own? Because my standard of living would be drastically reduced? It sounds so cold and money grubbing but those are the realities of life.

And no, I haven't forgiven him yet. I can forgive the affair, what I can't forgive right now is the fact that he didn't ask me for forgiveness for months even though I told him how important it was. I told him the longer it took, the less inclined I would be. He didn't care until I said I was at a breaking point. Typical.
Wow, pearl, what a difficult sitch. I wish I had some wisdom to impart. What really hit me was "he was unhappy and didn't have the balls to say so" My sitch exactly!

All those possible reasons you give for staying--comfort, history, standard of living--don't judge yourself harshly for those. Those sorts of reasons have a basis in day to day basic happiness--we can bravely go out and meet the world each day BECAUSE we are comfortable, have a shared history with someone, etc.

I guess the question is--are those reasons enough? are you happy enough with the sitch as you are working to improve it?

Or is jumping out of the comfort zone the next, horribly painful step you (and me) need to take in order to have a truly fufilling happy life?

I don't know the answer to that--just thinking aloud here.
On a different but related front...

So my GF who I totally relied on during the worst of things is upset with me. We have not really been close since the spring for several reasons. Things came to a head when she completely ignorged my birthday and I unfriended her on FB.

She wrote me a letter and said she didn't do that to hurt me (so untrue) but that she's tired of constantly supporting me and me not supporting her.

I'm just so annoyed right now that I'm employing the 48 hour rule before responding.

First of all, yes, I have been selfish this past year. To be fair, I'm fairly selfish in general and always have been. My longtime friends all know this about me. (I'm not using that as an excuse because I do try to always be a good friend and bend over backwards for my friends. Just pointing out that this is not something new, it's one of my bad points that has to be taken with my good points.) But this year has been extremely difficult and I thought that's what friends are for, to lean on in the rough times.

She said she needed support and I didn't give it. I'm having trouble with this one because part of me thinks I should just know to be there and part of me thinks she's expecting me to mindread. If she needs me for something she should come to me and tell me that, otherwise how am I supposed to know? Or should I just know?

She thinks I'm not talking to her because she is not supportive of me getting back together with BF. She swears she never said or implied that, that as long as I'm happy she's happy for me. Not completely true. She has said that, but she has also made snide comments about why would I ever want to go back to him. And this is not new. When I first told her that we were moving to AK she asked me why I would do that. Because BF has an amazing work opportunity so that's what is best for us. Her response: "Just because he goes doesn't mean you have to." At that point we had already been together for over four years and owned our first house. It's not like it was a casual relationship.

And that's not why I haven't been talking to her. I realized that I was always the one to call, email, make plans. Then she complained to me that she was tired of being the one to make all the effort with her other friends. Really? Where is any of that effort with me? Especially since she considers me her best friend. So I simply waited for her to make the first contact. That was in the spring.

My take on the situation: she is happy when I am having problems and not as happy when my life is going well. Also I think she's not dealing well with the fact that I reconnected with my BFF after years of estrangement.

We have been friends for over 20 years and I really don't want to sever the relationship, but I don't know if it can be fixed at this point. It's just sad.
Hi Pearl,
I haven't had time to read your whole thread, but I have appreciated your input in my sitch.

You know, I was thinking the other day that this crisis that happened in my M has actually helped me to "clean house" in many areas of my life. I have learned who my true friends are, and I have learned a lot about myself in terms of what I will tolerate and not tolerate in ANY R. Maybe that is part of what is happening for you too?
Like what Rocked said, it's during a crisis when you find out just who your true friends are.

If this friend can't deal with you getting back together with your BF, then she must have some other agenda and you probably don't need that in your life.

Stinks that 20 yrs friendship will go down the drain, but if she can't be happy for you, then maybe she's not the friend you thought she was?
Thanks Rocked and Hope

Yes, I'm finding that out. She swears up and down that she's happy as long as I'm happy, but I really don't want to put up with the snide comments. Sigh. We'll see. I still haven't responded to her letter because I've been going through some other stuff...

Last night BF and I started out fooling around and ended up in a heavy R talk. Another Sigh. I really need to work on holding things in for a better time to talk. But I was just overcome because we're heading out for a weekend in the mountains tonight and the last time BF went on a ski vacation it was with OW (twice).

It actually started out about sex and wondering if he compares my body to OW because we are built quite differently. I told him I know he thinks I'm sexy (because I am ;)) but he always said that big boobs didn't matter and then he went out and cheated with a rack. He said the sex wasn't good with them but I read an email from her that said he was in lust which implied there was lots of sex so it couldn't have been that bad if he kept going back for more. He said he tired of it quickly because she was boring in bed and didn't have any personality. So what's to stop him from straying again if our sex life gets boring?

From there it went to being unsure about this trip because I know he skiied with her last winter and how much that hurt me. He bought me new skis and boots in Sept so we could ski as something to do together in the winter, then he only took her. It hurts so much because it feels like he just gave her my life: he brought her into my house with my pets, did the activities that we were supposed to do together, took her on the ski trip with his brother and sil, didn't take me to his company Christmas party because she was there, called and emailed her on my birthday, etc. I got really upset because he said he was trying to spare my feelings--I called BS because it was obvious he was more concerned about her and lying about it now just made it hurt more.

So I finally told him that I needed to know (but was afraid to know) why he decided he wanted to come back to me. I need to know that I'm not just a fallback option because OW turned out to be boring. After a few minutes he said that when he realized that the sex wasn't good and OW had no personality he started thinking about how much personality I have, that I'm smart and fun, that we did enjoy doing things together, and just how much he had lost. So I thanked him for telling me for that because all this time (since April) I didn't know if he came back for me or because it's just a comfortable life.

I guess the plan is still to go to the mountains tonight. I'm going to try to put on a smile and not think about OW because I hate that I even spend a second letting her into my life. Not sure how I'll hold up for the weekend but I did buy myself a fabulous new ski jacket so at I will look good on the slopes or walking around town.
Pearl,
I hope you go skiing and have an AMAZING time! One thing I am trying to do is "reclaim" the things OW tried to steal from me. For eg. a band H and I used to listen to together all the time she now has listed on her FB page as her favorite band. Maybe it is, but it's "old" music for a 23 year old and H admitted he introduced her to it. At first, I was so upset about such a silly thing that I couldn't listen to that band anymore, even tho it has always been one of my faves. So, now I force myself to listen to it, and am letting myself enjoy it and "reclaim" it. I've listened to it together again with H and told him that is why... so we can "reclaim" it together. H has been on board with that.

So... go skiing, look fabulous, have fun, try not to think about OW and give BF every reason to be 100% focused on his hot, sexy, fun ski bunny GF! cool
Thanks Rocked.

Yeah, I have been doing the reclaiming thing, but sometimes it just gets to me. I just can't seem to get over the feeling like I was dispensible, that he was just going to move me out and move her in and continue on in the life we had planned. These are the times that I am so mad at him.

But I will be fun and fabulous on the slopes. So I need to go pack!!
Hi - I have been lurking on the boards off and on for a few years. Yesterday I logged in and saw your thread and figured I had to reply. I read the whole thing from start to end and I swear you sound just like my wife and I am just like your BF. Some of the things you wrote that you said and how your BF responded were almost word for word for my wife and i have said. Maybe I can offer some insight into your BF since he sounds like me. Is he non-confrontational also? Go on the ski trip. He will be thinking about how lucky he is that you went. The place does not hold any feelings for him from before. He is looking to this trip for what it is. time to be with you. I would like to address some of the other things that you have said about what he did and what he says/does but i don't have much time today. If it is ok i will throw in my two cents also. if you are up for more reading you can read but i cant remember the title. I will try to find it this weekend. It talks about personality types might help you figure out why he does some things.

I got to go but i will get the information for you monday if you want
Remembered one- it is expensive but really good

Garry smalley Keys To Loving Relationships on DVD

Does an awesome job talking about differences between men and women
I remembered the other one

Personality Puzzle (Paperback)
~ Florence Littauer (Author), Marita Littauer (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Puzzle-Florence-Littauer/dp/080078703X
I hope you have a fabulous time skiing.

I can only imagine what it feels like to try and reclaim turf that BF gave to the OW.

Maybe focus on the fact that he IS there with YOU, not the "rack." Be the interesting YOU that he chose to come back to.

Stand on top of the mountain and shout: I belong on this mountain with BF! I'm here! Claim it, claim it, claim it as your space with him.

And I wish you lots of powder!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I just can't seem to get over the feeling like I was dispensible, that he was just going to move me out and move her in and continue on in the life we had planned.


When forced to choose, he chose you and dumped her Pearl. He could have let you go, and probably could have moved her in. He didn't.

He screwed up big time and I'm sorry he gave you this hurt, but you were not dispensible.
I'm right there with ya Pearl concerning the "rack".

Just recently I saw a picture of OM for the first time and I just thought to myself "You F'ing cheated on me with THAT"? I guess I was hoping that he'd be frickin Brad Pitt or something, but no. Frickin weasel looking POS. I showed my Admin Assist his picture and she's like "no way, he looks like a squirrel".

Don't get too hung up on her looks. I've read a couple of times in books and other websites that people affair down. Where else would they find a low life to do that with? Someone with no morals who looks like a dik (or C*nt depending on gender. And I reserve that word for only special women!) If this A person was so special, why would they go after an attached person? Because they're either only after one thing or because they can't find a real relationship so they find someone who is struggling for whatever reason and set their trap.

I would suspect the OW in your sitch is like that. And I would suspect your BF is really struggling with the ski trip also. He's probably feeling like chit because he blew it with you and he's taking you to "reclaim" the fun stuff you guys did together before. Like you probably read on my sitch about the trip to the mountains and that freaking glass. I think I'm ready to reclaim that special place W and I have loved going to our whole marriage.

Go skiing. Enjoy the time with BF. MAKE IT YOURS again!
Thanks for commenting on this! I have been struggling with this also. 23 y.o. OW looks like (and obviously acts like)a "trailer trash" ho. Sorry... I don't usually talk about people like that, but it is true. The number that did on my self esteem... I was a mess! I've never heard that before about "affairing down" (is that how you put it?) How reassuring. H and I have actually talked about that, and his IC has talked with him about that too.... it's like he was sabotaging his life. She would have literally ruined him, in every way. Our kids would never have respected him or her, nor would his family, friends, etc. He would likely have lost his career, respect in the community etc.
Anyway.... thanks for commenting!
And Pearl, we better hear about an amazing time when you get back!
How was the skiing, Pearl?

I hope you were able to build new happy memories with your BF, and keep OW out of your mind.
Merry Christmas Pearl! He made the right choice and he knows it now. I hope you had a great trip!
Hi swest99, thanks for stopping by.

Any insight is always appreciated. And yes, he is very non-confrontational. It's frustrating for me since I'd rather blow up and get over it (which I've explained numerous times over the years) but I think we're both trying to talk things out calmly.

I'll take a look at the books you recommended.
Thanks for the pep talks everyone.

We did go away for the weekend. It was touch and go right before we left but I decided to suck it up and just try not to think of it. And as you and my BFF pointed out, it was never about OW specifically, she was just there when he decided to be self-destructive. He definitely cheated down because she's not nearly as attractive (see, my self-esteem is fine these days ;)) and as BF says, she has no personality. Plus she is a predator who has a history of going after married men and not one of them yet has stayed with her.

The weekend was pretty lowkey. Sat morning we slept in then hit the slopes. After lunch we met up with a couple friends who showed up for the day and skied the rest of the day with them. Sat night we went out to dinner at a steak place, had a couple drinks while watching the end of the football game, then went back to the condo. We had originally planned to hang out with friends who have a place up there but no one went up last weekend. Then we were going to hang out with other friends who decided to come up but they blew us off. Whatever!

Sun morning BF said ILY because you're so much fun. I know he just said it because of my concerns because it was a pretty mundane weekend. He insisted that he has fun just hanging out with me. We got up, went to breakfast, then our timeshare presentation (that's how we got the cheap weekend rate). After that ordeal was over we headed back to town listening to Christmas music the whole drive. We spent the rest of the evening watching football.

So nothing spectacular but nothing bad either.

I found out yesterday that a friend from HS is going to be in town for Christmas so I invited him over for dinner. It will definitely change the dynamic but that might be a good thing. The holidays are full of triggers and I'm trying to stay on an emotional even keel. If someone else is in the house I'm way less likely to burst into tears.

I spent all day yesterday writing my annual newsletter and getting my Christmas cards out. I skipped the letter last year for obvious reasons and heard back from several people that they missed it. I put off doing it this year because I just wasn't sure what to say. I decided that the people who know what was going on last year also know we're working things out and those who don't know will never notice a difference. So I talked about the good things since the summer and left it at that.

Today I will finally start baking my cookies if I can ever get off these boards! smile
Survived Christmas. Actually it was quite nice. It really helped having a friend stay with us as it gave me something to focus on and kept all the thoughts of OW away. Well, most of them. I did check BF's phone to see if she texted him and there wasn't anything from her but there was a "Merry Christmas" message from a former coworker. I don't like her anymore because she was the one who told BF to leave me when I discovered the affair (we were out with two other couples the night I saw the texts from OW on his phone) because we didn't have anything in common. Nice. And we had socialized with her and her husband for a few years before this! Anyway, I told BF a couple days later that I saw the text from her and asked if he was still in touch. He said no and that made me feel better. I know I can't choose his friends, nor do I want to, but it does make me uncomfortable when he chooses to hang out with people who actively condoned his affair and worked to split us up.

BF got me a lovely Tahitian pearl pendant for Christmas, just what I wanted. It's the first time he's ever bought me jewelry that didn't involve being at the store with me when I picked something out and just handing over his credit card. I have mentioned that I wanted Tahitian pearls a couple years ago so he isn't a total gift genius, but it's nice to know that he can pay attention if he so chooses.

We had a few friends over on Boxing Day including my friend M who works for BF. She told me something that has been bothering me a bit and I'm not sure if I should mention it to BF or if it's something I should just deal with on my own.

Among the several new members of BF's team at work are a man and woman who started around the same time and hit it off very well. Everyone who works with them joke about them being each other's work spouse and then it progressed to joking about them having an affair. Recently when this came up again they started saying to the woman, no you're not having an affair with G, you're having one with BF (who is their boss's boss). My friend M said she just froze but couldn't say anything without raising suspicion so she just let it go, but she wanted to tell me in case I heard it from anyone else at BF's company.

Now I admit that at first I was skittish about him working with so many women, but I can't do anything about it so I just let it go. But then I met this woman and immediately got a bad vibe about her. Nothing specific she said or did but I just don't want BF to start hanging out with her. BF has never talked about her at home so I don't think he socializes with her much at work. I'm just a little freaked out since OW was a coworker and he's going to be working long hours for two straight weeks starting Saturday.

Part of me wants to say something to him in case I irrationally freak out at some point so he knows where it's coming from. But most of me thinks I need to learn how to work through these feelings and deal with them on my own since right now it's just in my head. Sigh.
Hi Pearl,

That is a very good question... when to raise something and when to try to sort out our own emotions... something I struggle with, as you know wink

But... it sounds like at this point, there is nothing valid for you to raise an issue about. People at work say stupid things like that without knowing your sitch. But, I would trust your instincts about that woman, and if there does end up being any socializing, increased contact etc. definitely say something.

That's my two cents for what it's worth at this point in my own sitch...
it does make me uncomfortable when he chooses to hang out with people who actively condoned his affair and worked to split us up.

Understandable.


BF got me a lovely Tahitian pearl pendant for Christmas, just what I wanted. It's the first time he's ever bought me jewelry that didn't involve being at the store with me when I picked something out and just handing over his credit card. I have mentioned that I wanted Tahitian pearls a couple years ago so he isn't a total gift genius, but it's nice to know that he can pay attention if he so chooses.

That's wonderful that he remembered what you like and picked out something romantic and personal just for you, all on his own.


at first I was skittish about him working with so many women, but I can't do anything about it so I just let it go.

If he is trustworthy, it won't matter how many women he works with.


But then I met this woman and immediately got a bad vibe about her. . . . he's going to be working long hours for two straight weeks starting Saturday.

Pay attention to your bad vibe about her, but that doesn't mean that she can come between you and BF. People say dumb things sometimes and the remark may or may not have any basis in reality. You are lucky to have friend M.

My inclination would be to say nothing to BF about it. If anything more odd comes up, M will likely tell you. If there is anything going on, telling BF would just alert him about M.

Have you talked with BF about what would help you feel better as he is working these long hours?
Thanks Rocked & Dudess

I feel bad thinking ill of someone I don't even know, but you know how it is once you've been burned.

Dudess, as soon as I read your reply I turned to BF and asked him about what would be happening communication-wise during the next couple weeks. He assured me that everyone in the department will be working and he will continue to call me to let me know what's going on. I doubt they will feel like going out to socialize afterwards until the last day (that's where the trouble started with OW). And the good news is that my friend M will be there too and I know if anything happens she will let me know. BF knows that M will tell me everything so I'm not tipping my hand there (she was ready to only invite me to her wedding next summer even though BF is her boss).

I will be going out of town for a few days during this heavy work time. When I booked the trip I thought it was great timing because BF will be so busy that he won't have time to spend with me and he might like to come home to a quiet house for a few of those days. Now I'm slightly anxious about going but I know once I get there I'll be too busy having fun to think about it. wink
What a good plan to have booked that time for yourself when BF is so busy! These are things I am learning from you... to be more proactive about those kinds of things.

And great that you asked BF so directly about the communication. More than likely, it all turns out to be nothing...

Hope your day is going well! smile
PH, Those are all very common emotions after getting burned like we have. It's like you're hyper-vigilant to any threat.

I get that. Been there, done that, and still have those same feelings on a fairly regular basis. And I've struggled with how to deal with those emotions. Just here a few weeks ago I remember thinking to myself, ya know what? IF W would ever let herself go down that path again, I'm done. I told her probably a year ago that in this kind of sitch, she's had her one strike and this isn't baseball and she doesn't get another. So after sorting through that and realizing I'm a whole lot stronger and have regained my self esteem after the mess, that I know and she knows what the result would be if she let herself go there again so I'm just not going to waste any energy worrying about it. And it seems to have helped me relax some when she comes home from work and tells me about conversations she's had with men at work.

Don't get me wrong, there's one guy in particular that makes me nervous, especially with the comments that W says he makes about how she looks, etc, but when she tells me those things we talk about it I feel better. I'm pretty sure W get's how she let herself slide with OM and she won't let herself go there with this guy. But if there's one thing I've learned in this mess, it's you can't control anyone but yourself and your actions and if she would go there with this guy or any other guy, then there's no way I'd want to spend the rest of my life with her, so why worry about it?

Ok, I know that was quite the ramble. I hope it makes sense what I was trying to say.

Keep your chin up. It's just another of one of those mines in the mine field that we piecer's have to navigate.
Thanks for the perspective Hope. Yes, you're right, we both know that if it ever happens again that I will be finished for good. In fact we almost hit that point a few months ago when I found flirtatious emails with another female coworker. He realized it was inappropriate and deleted the messages so I wouldn't find them and freak out. Well, they weren't really deleted and I did find them and the fact that he tried to hide it made the situation ten times worse. At that point I was ready to walk because I told him I will not go through this again. So he knows I'm dead serious and I need to just remember that and not spend energy worrying about it.

Again, thanks, this is just what I needed today.
Venting:

Listening to the radio yesterday I heard an ad for the Avon 2-day Breast Cancer Walk. I just tensed up because OW did that walk right before the throes of the affair began. So I got pissy every time I heard the ad last year. Now it's starting up again and I have the same reaction. Which in turn makes me feel like a bad person because I dislike a charity (and Habitat for Humanity because OW was always talking about how much she volunteers).

Grrr.

But I'll get over it eventually. Today I'm focusing on getting ready for my solo trip to SF. Can't wait!
Triggers -- arrgggg!!!

There are still songs I hear on the radio that set me off, even tho things are going very well between my wife and me. Songs that were on the air during the summer of '07, when she had her affair. Very tough to listen to.

Enjoy San Fran!!

Puppy
Thanks Pup! I'll let you know if I get any shoes while I'm there. wink
Oh, you still know how to kill me, don't you Pearl . . . laugh

Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Triggers -- arrgggg!!!

There are still songs I hear on the radio that set me off, even tho things are going very well between my wife and me. Songs that were on the air during the summer of '07, when she had her affair. Very tough to listen to.

Enjoy San Fran!!

Puppy


Songs are huge triggers for me too! D13 listens to a lot of the same music as OW (well, they are not that far apart in age.... sick) so I really struggle when D13 is listening to "her" music and there are just certain songs.... Sounds like they will be triggers for a long time to come...

Pearl... have a FABULOUS trip! Do some window "shoe" shopping for me, kay? cool
Originally Posted By: rockedworld
D13 listens to a lot of the same music as OW (well, they are not that far apart in age....


sick is right!

This particular trigger just so pisses me off because I feel like I'm the bad person for getting upset at ads for a charity while I know that OW is the bad person in this scenario (and BF, but I know for a fact that she's had A with other married men before so that moves her from bad choices to a bad person in my book). Grr. I guess the only thing to do is whip out the "water off a duck's back" mantra and keep on trucking.

Had a great first day of vacation. Did a lot of damage at my favorite boutique: two dresses, two tops, purse, wallet and pill case. I passed on these blue suede pumps but told them I may be back for them before the week is through.
I'm with ya ladies. I really don't care for country music. W pretty much detests it. Both of us are ok with the more rock type country, but true country...with no offense to those country music lovers out there....sucks.

But....OM loves country music and of course, during her A, she had a new found love for it. It took W a while, but she's now back to not being able to stand it. But everytime I hear CM or see an advertisement for the CMA or the like, I trigger.

And Pearl, OM in my case has had at least 5 A's that his exW knows about and with them living 100's of miles apart all the time, you know there's at least twice that many. So when someone tells me my W is equally at fault, I agree to a point, but OM is a player, obviously being married (himself or his victims) doesn't matter to him and my W truly thought he was in love with her and was going to marry her.....when the whole time he was only after one thing. In fact, one time when my W was screaming at me for exposing to OMW, I said to her "I don't know why you're angry, now that OMW knows, they can divorce and we can divorce and you two can live happily ever after. Oh yeah, that's right, he blew you off when she found out". Ouch. I bet that hurt her and I probably shouldn't have said it, but at the time, I didn't really care.

Water off a ducks back. Learn it, live it. It does get better. The more my wife shows me she "get's it" the less severe those triggers are.

P.S. Those shoes are HOT. I would love to see W in them...in bed crazy
Interesting...
OW in my case also seems to be a female version of a "player". The pastor who told me the details of the PA also let me know he is aware of her "sexual involvement with at least one other person", my H has asked around since breaking it off with her to find out that other M men at their workplace had been hit on by OW, and even when my H was with her once she gave her phone number to another man right in front of him! But, he thought she was "in love" with him and going to marry him, etc etc etc. Scarey.... already at these tricks at 23.

Anyway, Pearl I appreciate your clarification about "bad choices" vs. "bad person". There is a difference, IMO. In our process of forgiving our spouses and piecing, it is helpful to recognize this. My H made some very bad choices and he is dealing with the consequences of that. OW, however, in my books, is a "bad person" and I don't believe I ever will forgive her either.

Glad to hear H4U that the triggers do get a bit better over time as our S "gets it". Hope that is true!

Pearl... those shoes are fabulous! I would definitely go back for them if I were you. Remember how we talked about wearing pumps to do housework... those are the ticket! wink
Ladies, Here is one thing that I said to W, which I whole heartedly believe, that I think had the greatest impact on her and my recovery also.

I was discussing a situation we had at work. One of our newer employees F'd up really bad. Screw up was reportable to a government agency. He came in my office and asked if he was going to be fired. I told him no and then said...

"Everyone makes mistakes, the true measure of a person is how they respond to those mistakes and how they learn from them. Will you ever make that mistake again?" And my guy said "NO". I said, "then we're ok".

So I came home from work that night and was telling W about it and after I'd told her what I said to my guy, she just looked at me like this light bulb had gone off in her head.

Our real challenge is to live that and not contridict that in any of our conversations with our S's so they know we truly believe it. Did they F up? YES. Are they showing they "get it"? If that answer is yes, then you'll be ok.

And if you can't and don't believe that, I'm not sure "piecing" will ever work.

Now if it happens again, it's not a mistake......
Thanks guys, it really helps to hash this stuff out with you. I do hold BF responsible for his actions & have told him that next time I will leave so fast his head will spin.

Shoe update: bought the blue suede shoes!
Elvis would've been proud.

He also would've been 75 yesterday.

Puppy
PH

Loving those shoes!!! I haven't made any acquisitions this week but hey, you never know what could happen on the weekend shopping trip to the mall!!!
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Elvis would've been proud.

He also would've been 75 yesterday


Puppy


That was one of the deciding factors. I heard him singing as I tried them on. wink
Great shoes Pearl! I'm a 4 incher in training. Just now getting used to 3 inches smile

Interesting article in the Feb. Harper's Bazaar called "The Sexification of Fashion". Estee Lauder executive John Dempsey says "When the going gets tough, the tough get sexy". He's referring to the tough economic times but certainly this could be about women bouncing back after a man problem!
Home from SF. Sigh. I wish it was longer. It was cold, windy and foggy the entire four days and I loved every minute. I am determined to move back, even though it means I will have to give up my big beautiful house and yard for a small rundown apartment.

I waaaaaay overspent but got some fabulous things. Remembered that I have a couple weddings in June so at least I can say that I bought the outfit for something. I'm sure BF will be biting his tongue re: my spending, but perhaps if I just show him the shoes (and nothing else wink ) he'll be more open. Thanks for the idea H4U!

I met hhh for lunch on Friday and we had a nice chat. I will say that I was a bit envious of being able to start over fresh in a new city. I know, most people would kill to be piecing now but I still think about having a single life. I know there are lots of negatives to it also, but they're hard to see when you're just enjoying being in a place you love.

I got home and drove straight to BF's office. His entire dept has been working late and through the weekends since the beginning of the year. I knew I wouldn't have any time with him unless I popped in for a quick visit. He came home really late and crawled into bed to cuddle. This morning he told me that he really missed me when I was gone. I felt bad that I didn't really miss him because I was too busy having fun.

So I guess I'm just in a funk now. Need to clean up the kitchen and unpack. Tomorrow morning I start the job hunt.
Hi Pearl,

Seems to me what you are feeling makes a lot of sense. When we have been through what we've been through, you have to face the reality of single life, what it might mean etc. And, let's face it, there would be some positives... wink

I think it is also a sign that you managed to find some healthy detachment through your sitch that you can go on a trip on your own, GAL, and not have anxiety about what BF is up to at home, etc.

Is there any way you and BF can move to SF together?

Good luck with the job hunt! smile
Well, there was a bit of anxiety about BF while I was gone. The first night he told me the server at work was being shut down at 9 so he could only work until then. I called him after 10 at the house and no answer. I immediately wondered where he was and what was going on. I waited another hour and called again, this time he was there. I started in on him saying I thought I could trust him while I was gone and at the first opportunity he wasn't where he said he would be. He told me they didn't shut the server down for another hour so he just stayed at work until that happened and came straight home. He asked if I wanted him to call me from work before he left then from home when he got there. No, I decided that was just too much plus I didn't want him to be calling and just leaving messages since I planned on being out late for the rest of the trip. So I let it go. Just had to remind myself that whatever was going to happen would happen and I would deal with it then, no good in worrying.

Yes, BF has said that he is willing to move to SF. But I have to get a good enough job to support both of us so I can be working while he is looking for a new job. His company doesn't do any business in the Bay Area so transferring is not an option for him.

Not off to a good start. Worked out this morning and have been stuck on the computer ever since. Time to get offline and get busy!
Hi Pearl. How was your week ?
Hi Cutter

Meh, nothing going on here. I'm having a hard time getting motivated to do anything these days. BF is very understanding, too much I think. If I were him I'd be pissed if I came home to nothing being done in the house all day every day. I've always had this motivation problem and still looking for the answers.

That said, I'd better get off my butt and go meet my friend for lunch. At least that's something!
Hope you have a great lunch and maybe some GALing of some sort this week to help with motivation! smile
Hi Pearl. I find a good way to do stuff around the house is to set a stop watch for 15 minutes. Go do stuff then when it beeps finish off what your doing. Make sure you got music blaring away and listen to stupid fun mindless songs... smile

Do this every day... Then one day a week reward yourself for 15 minutes with the stopwatch.

And always make your bed when you get out of it.
Hey Cutter... that sounds like flylady...is that where you get that from? I love flylady!
Hiya PH

Just checking in to see how you are doing. Work has been crazy of late, so I have not been on much. How's the job hunt going?
who is flylady? I do not think I read her stitch.

I like to clean smile Once I get started.... smile
sorry for the hijack Pearl... flylady has nothing to do with DB it is a website to help you keep your home clean and organized... www.flylady.org She suggests 15 min at a time. It's really good stuff.
I know what and how to get things done, it's just the motivation I lack to actually do it. My biggest and persistent problem.
Thats a great site rdw.

Thank you.
I'm having a rough day. It started yesterday actually and ended up with me crying myself to sleep.

Do you watch How I Met Your Mother? The episode on Monday talked about how in each couple one person is the reacher and one is the settler. The reacher knows his/her partner is out of his/her league and s/he can't get anyone better. The settler knows this and therefore doesn't worry about the reacher cheating because s/he can't get anyone better. BF and I were watching the show and I felt a little twinge but passed it over.

Yesterday I saw that one of my FB friends posted that he's a reacher and he's fine with it. That prompted me to say that I think I'm the settler but not to tell BF. I meant it to be funny, but another friend took the opportunity to tell me what he thinks of my sitch. I got this message from him:

Ok,since you brought it up, I'll say this once, and you can do with it what you will:

Yes, I think you settled. You are about a thousand times above BF's station AND he cheated on you? I normally don't stick my nose in but you didn't seem happy when you were out here.

You're smart, beautiful and talented. I'd say you deserve better. Dump his ass, move to San Francisco and be happy.

There, I said it. Do with it what you will. You will always have my friendship whatever you decide.

Love you,

C


C is friend from HS so he knows me well and for a long time. He hasn't said anything before this.

I've pretty much been a wreck ever since. This whole time we've been piecing I've been going back and forth as to whether or not this is the right R for me now. Sometimes I think I want to stick it out because when you love someone and are committed to them that means working through the bad times. I never finish anything and I want to finish this because it's important. I don't want to give up just because it's difficult.

On the other hand, I wonder if I just stay because it's comfortable and change is scary. If I leave I will relocate and basically have to start out all over again with nothing. I don't know that I will ever fully trust BF again and if I'm willing to live that way for the rest of my life. That wouldn't be fair to either one of us. It doesn't help that I wonder about what my life would be like on my own or with someone else. I know that I could find someone else and maybe someone better suited to me. But I also know that I could end up alone and don't know if that would be better if I was being true to myself.

So basically I'm still stuck. Had a pow wow with my BFF this morning and she said she feels like we've been having this same conversation for a year. She's right, we have. And I'm no closer to knowing which way to turn.

I think it's time I suck it up and somehow, somewhere find the money for IC. I'm just tired of being indecisive, I need to pick a direction and go with it.
Posted By: K4D Re: Swimming against the current - PH in piecing - 01/20/10 09:25 PM
Quote:
I'm having a rough day. It started yesterday actually and ended up with me crying myself to sleep.


I may be a guy. But I have had moments like this also. There are good days and bad days. Just gotta try and get through the bad days and then enjoy the good days.

Kevin
Yes, IC does sound as though it would be a beneficial thing to do, for you.

I just wanted to weigh in on the trust issue. Over on Marriagebuilders there's a piece in which (Dr Harley) says we should never fully give our trust to anyone. If we assume/trust our spouse will never cheat on us, that leads us to stop continually working on our R. He adds, heck, can he ever be sure he can trust himself? Without constant work, we become complacent, but it's not good to take our S or our R for granted. So a new R wouldn't really solve the problem.

In my own M, post-MLC and OW, I decided that I could never entirely be sure whether my H deserves my trust. As long as he is relaxed, affectionate, undepressed, I can be pretty sure he's not secretly reconnecting with OW, but at times when he's stressed out and grumpy it's harder to tell. So, I determined that whether or not he is trustworthy is his issue, not mine. I will act as though I trust him (ie. not get all insecure and questioning when he's standing outside the car texting someone in the dark, or whatever). If it ever turns out that he betrayed my trust again, that would have been his choice, and our R would be over. But I choose to act like a person who is trusting behaves, because I do not want to see myself as forever "broken" by something another person did.

I don't know if that helps. I'm not sure, by the way, that I believe that one person in each R is out of the other's league. I tend to think that we choose people who complement us, who are our equal-but-opposite, who can help us learn the lessons we need to learn (which goes both ways).
Wow, pearl, I totally relate to the back-forth-stuck feeling.

You have all asked why BF and I never married after 23 years.

I couldn't commmit. I wasn't sure. I would get huge anxiety thinking--is this the right guy? I gave myself lots of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" about being with the same guy since college. Maybe I should explore more??!! Maybe he should?

But I would get huge anxiety and cry when I thought about leaving.

Add in feeling guilty because I had taken up so much of his life, so the only ethical thing to do was continue on--not the clearest thinking, but that's what it felt like.

So STUCK and SCARED for probably 19 of 23 years. And in love, and happy and having a great life and conflicted at the same time.

What changed? about 4 years ago I started on lexapro for general anxiety.

Suddenly, without the constant churning, self doubt, energy draining anxiety-- I was able to feel happy and content, and really feel love for BF.

But--without addressing the underlying issues, as I am now doing with IC, I couldn't break the fear and the patterns of our R to express that love more fully and even talk about getting M.

And here we are now.

So...if in any way in the midst of the churning you can find time/money for meds, or meditation, or IC, or whatever it takes to make the space in your mind to see if you can see what you want--I truly hope you can do that.

I feel your feelings right in my stomach.
Hi Pearl,

It sounds like finding a way to attend IC would be a good step for you right now. Does your BF have a plan thru work? That is how we are doing it...

Those are big questions and totally understandable. I find myself waffling around those questions myself. And, honestly, if we didn't have kids I don't know where I would land. The kids and the family life we have had all these years keeps me more firmly in the "stay and work on things" camp, but there are days when I wonder...

I wish I had something to offer here... It's hard when we are where other DB'ers would like to be and that find we have days we are not sure we want to be here... It is so hard.

I am thinking of you. I think the key is you need to figure out what is good for YOU. That could go either way, and IC could really help you sort that out.

Take care!
I read through your thread about a month ago... I can totally relate to how you feel. But I am so glad you put it out there as it has helped me immensely to know that I am not the only one with those feelings.

And thanks for all the support you provided me and telling me to listen to my "gut feelings".
Hi guys

Thanks to everyone who responded. I've made an IC appointment for tomorrow so I'll let you know where things stand with me after that.
Hi PH,

I can really relate to how you are feeling. I continue to waffle back and forth mainly because trust hasn't been reestablished and because there have been incidents to question H's honesty.

I really like what Cyrena said about acting like a person who is trusting would behave and that if H is not trustworthy, that is really his issue, not mine. I will have to keep reminding myself of this - afterall, can you ever be certain that you can trust another 100%? Most of us have learned the answer to that the hard way.
Hi PH

I have been reading along and am checking in to see how you are doing.
I was wondering the same thing...
Sorry guys, just a busy GAL weekend and lazy today.

The meeting with the IC was really good. I think we hit it off well and I definitely felt better when I left. It took some time to explain the whole sitch and that my goal is to just get unstuck. We talked about a lot of stuff, bottom line is that she thinks it takes a lot of time to heal from infidelity and I simply haven't had enough time yet. So I need to give myself a break and realize that I don't have to figure everything out right now or at the same time.

First thing to do is have a candid convo with BF about me not working. Is he resentful about it? Or would he be ok with it on a long-term basis or with me just working part-time. Because ultimately I need to decide what lifestyle I want. Is it more important to be in SF which will require me working FT or even two jobs or would I rather stay here if I don't have to work? I'm pretty sure that he wants me to work no matter where we are but that's mindreading and I need to gather all the info to make an informed decision.

She's advocating that I just focus on one thing at a time and it doesn't have to be the relationship. It's ok to give myself a timeframe and just see where things stand in three/six/nine months. And if I want to move to SF I don't have to make a decision about the R because if BF chooses to move then it's his decision to make. If things don't work out with us then that's what happens. There are no guarantees in life.

My assignment is to have that conversation and then we'll go from there. My next appt is in two weeks.

We had a pretty fun weekend. It was my turn to plan date night so Friday we went out to dinner then to a hotel bar where the regulars sing showtunes with the piano player. Saturday we bummed around watching movies then toured the local whiskey distillery before going out to a birthday party at a downtown club (something we never do). Sunday we went out to breakfast, watched football and met with a landscape designer to make a plan to redo the front yard.
Oh, and realized in the IC session that it was the anniversary of me throwing BF out of the house. Never thought this is where I'd be in a year. There's good and bad to that.
Hi Pearl. Sounds like you had a good weekend. Take care. Wonder where you will be this time next year?
Thanks for the update Pearl.

You seem like you are in such a strong place, and still detached enough that you can look at your options and not worry/panic about the outcome.

I was encouraged by your IC saying infidelity takes a long time to heal from and you haven't had enough time. I'm much newer to this than you, so of course I am struggling as much as I am! That made me feel better.

It sounds like the approach you are taking makes sense. There is no rush. You working on YOU... that part of DBing needs to continue on into piecing.

You continue to be an inspiration to me. smile
@Cutter - who knows? I certainly have a picture in my head of what I want it to look like, but I have to start taking steps to make it happen.

@Rocked - I don't deserve your kind words but I thank you for them. blush Well, it's been nine months of piecing and I am still actively struggling with it, it's just not on a daily basis anymore. So I definitely think you're on the right path. I think my biggest issue is that I didn't see us working past this until late October, more than six months into piecing. Maybe that's not long in the grand scheme of things but it certainly felt like it. And even now I'm not entirely sure we will end up together, but the scales are tipped slightly in that direction.

Honestly I feel bad about how I feel. Things have been going so well between BF and me lately. We're having fun and really being a couple. But I still have doubts and it hurts me to think that one day I could end the R and really hurt BF. But as the IC said, we all hurt people in our lives because we're human. Just don't go out of your way to intentionally hurt someone.

I found out last weekend that BF has something planned for Presidents' weekend. This is a 180 for him as he hardly ever plans surprises for me and in years past has always said the week before the holiday, [i]Oh, it's a holiday weekend. Let's go to X,i] and then was shocked that everything is booked up and has been for months.

While I'm delighted at the surprise, yesterday I started worrying that he might have set up a new email account to make the plans so I wouldn't see what they are. I talked to him about it last night, said I wouldn't check his email accounts for details but I still need to have access and I wanted to know if he set up another account for this purpose. He said no, no new email. If I really wanted to find out what we're doing I can just look because it's all there for me to see and he isn't going to change his passwords. But that would ruin the surprise.
PH,

Healing from infidelity can take a couple of years or more. You and BF have been back together less than a year. You obviously need a lot more time to heal, thus the waffling back and forth.

I like your BF's 180. Can't wait to hear how it all pans out.
Thanks addie.

I meant to respond to your post upthread. No, I don't expect to ever trust BF 100% again. Is that for the best? I'm not sure. I understand that complacency is bad and that I need to work at a R all the time. But I am sad that this is part of our history and I will never see him the same way again. Yes the R will undoubtedly be stronger and better if we stay together. I just sometimes think it would be better to start over with someone new so that baggage isn't there. I don't think it would necessarily be easier with someone new, just one less horrible thing to deal with.
I wonder if we still project our baggage on someone new, and they do the same to us. Subconsciously.

In a way it's easier to deal with your old SO (generally speaking), when you treat each other for what you are, not subconsciously expecting the same treatment as of your ex's.

I don't know if I explain it right. For example, someone new might have had their ex cheated on him, so he might subconsciously treat you as that's what you would do.

I think it all boils down to how good a person is at letting go. Like if you (general you) cannot let go of baggage in your current R, you will continue carrying it into a new one. It doesn't mean you cannot break up and let go.
Pearl, I was reading your early threads, but then I got sidetracked with my own stuff.

I just wanted to tell you I admire how you are working things out and working on yourself.

((()))
Thanks for your comments Wholeagain. I appreciate the input.

I agree, it all depends on being able to leave the past in the past and not let it rule any future relationships. I know there's no guarantee with anyone new that it would be any better than with BF. Everyone has baggage. But at least with someone new I wouldn't look at him and be able to picture him screwing OW behind my back in my house.
Pearl... Ouch!

Is there any way to wash that vision right out of your head???? (Kinda like gray hairs?)

Have a good weekend!!!
It's not that bad anymore MF, really. Dwelling on it really serves no purpose so I don't bother. But it's out there in various forms and does rear its ugly head at rather inopportune moments. I'm sure it will lessen as time goes on, but the disappointment in knowing that he chose someone else over me at one time will never completely go away. I haven't decided yet if it's something I want to live with for the rest of my life.

But in general things really are going great. smile We're going to the gambling town tonight and will stay at the casino hotel. Tomorrow night I want to go to a sci fi movie where local comedians talk over it a la Mystery Science Theater 3000. Sunday we're going to have dim sum with friends. And at some point we will meet with the landscape designer to look at plans for the front yard and I need to paint my darn closet.
Sheesh!!! Keep up w/her!!! Sounds like a blast this weekend. Let me know if your date poops out and you need a replacement! LoL
MF, the welcome mat is always out! If you think that's good, wait until you hear about my Superbowl party! wink
I'm jealous of all your weekend plans. LOL

It's good that you and BF are doing all those social activities together. It helps to solidify the connection.
MF, addie, the weekend was definitely full!

Gambling overnight trip with friends was fun. We ran some errands then went to the sci-fi movie Sat night. Sunday we went to dim sum with friends then worked around the house. BF experimented with chili for dinner.

After dinner I brought up moving to SF. I told BF that I needed to know his thoughts about it since it will involve a drastic lifestyle change. He said he thought my mind was already made up on going. I told him that's what I want but I haven't heard anything about what he wants to do. Without that input I feel like he's going along with the plan due to guilt about moving around for his career. I don't want him to move and end up miserable because the weather is bad, the cost of living is high and golf opportunities are limited. He started tearing up but I'm not sure why. He said he'll think about it. I'll ask again on Thursday night.

Right now I have to decide what it is I really want. I don't love living in Denver but it's not terrible. I've grown accustomed to my current lifestyle: being able to go out to dinner and do fun things. Moving to SF means taking several steps backwards due to the cost. Much smaller, a lot cruddier living conditions and not much (if any!) money left over for shopping, travel or other luxuries. But it also means being in a vibrant urban atmosphere where I feel like I belong. If only I could win the lottery!!

The other hitch in all this is still wondering if BF and I can or should remain together. If we split up I definitely want to move to SF. I can stay put for the time being and see how the R works out but that could just be delaying the inevitable move. Plus it means doing the job search twice, my own personal hell. OTOH, getting a job here means saving more money for a possible move to SF which is a definite plus.

Argh! Why can't I make a decision and stick to it??
Because there is a lot at stake... you have fought hard for this relationship! It is not an easy thing to make a decision that can now have a huge impact on what you fought so hard for.

I would really explore what the tearing up was about... it sounds like there is something significant there...
Hi Pearl

I agree with Rocked. There's something to the tearing up.

FWIW, staying in Denver, getting a job, saving money while seeing where your R goes may not be a bad idea. OTOH, moving could be a breath of fresh air and a great place to start over with or without BF. I am not helping am I?
Your weekend sounds fun.

If you don't have anything to lose, maybe try to get a job where you are now.
Hi Rocked, Kara, WA

Yeah, not really sure what the tears were about since I wasn't saying anything other than please tell me what you think so I can make an informed decision, I'm trying to weigh what is best for me/you/us. I did ask if he was upset because he had already decided he would stay here and just didn't tell me yet. He said no, that wasn't the case.

I will bring it up again but BF needs time to ruminate. I like to get everything on the table and try to work it out as I go along. He needs to take everything in, mull it over for a while, then make a decision. It's maddening for both of us.

I may go back to an earlier option of looking 50/50 here and there and leave it up to fate. I'm a huge musical theatre fan so this song keeps running through my head right now. Yes, I'm a drama geek.
Hey Pearl...
I'm catching up on you today. Hopefully I'll have something intelligent to say soon!! Thanks for all your insight!


T
HEY Pearl!
Holy Crap! Kudos to you girl - you are AMAZING. I finally caught up on everything... Based on some previous posts here I'm going looking for Gucci when we are done... not sure where to find but interested to see what "brings them back"....

I'm curious what draws you to SF and why you are sooooo set on moving there???

Great job handling the convo with BF - you stated in the most non-confrontational way ever! I'll be curious to see what he says.

Thanks for all your help with my stuff - You are wonderful to have around - can't wait to catch up with you in Denver!!!

Talia
Hi Talia, thanks for stopping by!

I went to college in SF and lived there for a total of 7 years. I just love it, I feel at home and at ease when I'm there. More urban, more culture, more water!

I went looking through my old threads to find where I started getting gucci's advice and ended up reading BF's letter to me where he asked for another chance. It was very painful and now I'm sitting here with tears streaming down my face. It's good to see how far we've come in the past year but I have to say there's still something that bothers me.

BF said he considers me his best friend and if I truly don't feel the same about him (I had told him that I didn't) then he would let me go and wish me well. And honestly, I'm still not sure that he is. We have a lot of history and we have a lot of fun together but I don't know if he's the right person to spend the rest of my life with. And I know that it would break his heart if I told him that.

It's been a year. Shouldn't I know this by now? Am I just prolonging the inevitable split and thus making it more painful for both of us? Or am I longing for something that isn't possible because our relationship has been forever changed? I'm not saying it isn't good. It is good. But is it good enough?

Ok, going to give myself five minutes to bawl then I need to start dinner.
Pearl.

Good Lord! I knew I liked you! I ADORE SF!

I'm thinking you should put some more thought into "you two" sometime soon. You're considering a lot... where to live, a new job, etc...

BTW, what kind of work do you do?

Did the cry help? What's for dinner?

We went gourmet... pepperoni and sausage smile

But, I'm having ONE glass of wine tonight (pinot grigio), as last night I ended up a blubbering mess talking w/Cutter and G in the alt. (J/K - Not a wine blubbering, but blubbering nonethless). OK... REFILL! smile
Work? What's that? grin I think the job couselor used the term "Client Relationship Manager." My last job was account management at a small ad agency but it did not involve pitching clients, just managing their activities. So that's what I like to do, project management with people. But not sales. I'm not like you and Puppy, quotas are just not my thing.

Cry was good, I shut it down after a few minutes. I have to remind myself too that I'm WAY more hormonal now that I went off the pill so I do tend to get more emotional during the PMS time.

BF just called to say he has to work late so I'm off the hook for dinner. Think I will have some easy mac & cheese (that's my comfort food of choise).

I like pinot grigio but I'm usually a red drinker. There is one riesling that I adore and will drink it whenever but it's hard to find here so I tend to hold it for the summer. BTW, I worked in the communications and marketing departments of a winery for seven years so I can recommend some good, inexpensive Washington wines.

I have a session with the IC tomorrow afternoon so I wanted to revisit the where to live conversation with BF tonight. Not sure that will happen now but I need to know where things stand so I can feel like I'm moving forward.
Pearl...

How funny! That's what I did right out of college! I handled the Keebler (Convenience Store division) account... you know, all the elves!!! I LOVED it, but they only paid me 18k a year, and billed my time at $125 an hour! Sh#t! That didn't even cover my shoe budget! Think I had a bum deal. It was fun, though... the Art Director and creative staff were doing bongs in the back when the Prez brought me in to meet them on the first day. I was like... "Yea! Is this what life after college is all about? I'm IN!" They all died laughing. DUH - They were high!

I seriously loved the job. Couldn't afford it, though. The owner bought a gorgeous $5 mil yacht that year, though!

It's too bad you don't like to sell. Our Dir of Sales is considering replacing himself in his territory (SF!!!!) by summer, so he can just manage us. (Yea, let him try!) It's a great territory, and no digging... that's my job, qualify it up and out to the regions (in addition to handling the Midwest)

I usually drink white when I cook. I/We are huge red fans... Yummy cabs, chewy bordeaux's, Chilean, and my fave... Rioja's! It's gotta leave a stain, or its not good, ya know?

Glad the tears are at bay. Don't want to ruin the eyeliner.
Sales without chasing leads? So what do the sales reps do? Make the presentations? Hmmm, I might be able to do that. But I have zero sales experience.

I don't like my reds to bite back, stick with merlot, malbec, cab franc, chianti, and red blends.

Ah, no eyeliner today. I didn't make it out of the house. The outdoors are overrated anyway. wink

I showed your house pics to BF, he wants to move in too. Both of us are waiting for the final after pics. And I'm working on putting together somem pics of our house.
Posted By: hhh Re: Swimming against the current - PH in piecing - 02/05/10 02:10 PM
Hey Pearl,
Just stopping by in your thread to say hello. Sounds like we have a little SF fan club and hard to believe I will be there in just over a month. Anyways, wanted to say I SO relate to your dilemna..when H and I were engaged I was having a lot of doubts ("is he the one?" "am I ready?" "what else is out there?" etc...all the stuff we've talked about)...even though life was good w him and I was getting settled into my new home/location w him, these doubts kept creeping up. I was contemplating moving back to NYC at the time. Mulled over it constantly, talked to IC, Friends, etc and got so frustrated with myself that I just did not know (i know we've talked about grass greener scenario too, etc). My friends always told me that moving would be a good test...do you miss being without him (he couldnt come right away)? and if the relationship was strong, H would then move too and i'd be in an envt where I was happier.

It sounds like w/o him you know SF is right call for you...but with him different considerations, of course. I remember feeling guilt in trying to make H move for me. Good to know where you stand w R first, I think, however if you do move and he comes shortly after you can also test how you feel out there, and how you feel without him (without breaking up).

Lots to consider I know. Hope the IC helps. It's hard to know what to do when you're confused but it sounds like you're doing all the right thinking. We can drive ourselves crazy overthinking too much though, no? What does your gut say? If you had to flip a coin and one answer was heads and the other tails, how do you immediately feel? I think you'll make the right decision for you.

Also, one thing I wanted to add was that when I often felt dis-satisfied in my M (and I did this more toward the end) I thought: 'what is it that I'm missing in my lfe?' I mean, outside of the M? Sometimes we look for M to bring utter bliss but often times there's something else that's missing entirely, or an issue w job, envt, hobbies, attitude, whatever? If you could create your life from a totally clean slate, what would you do? (you posed that to me awhile back) Is there something else that's missing? Sounds like your life is already quite full, but I know the issues can blend together a bit too (w location, job, R all things you are mulling through). For me, pro-con lists really helped.

Best to you Pearl...catch up soon!
HI ALL,
Pearl... I'm feelin ya this week. Hang in there - time decide what you really want. I'm starting to wonder too if I can ever really get past what has happened, so why would I bother to get H to come home. Maybe neither of us are "that big" of people!

I NEED to get into the ALT with all of you!!! Someone give me the secret pass code smile

Thanks for the encouragement on my thread, I'm killing myself this week.

T
Pearl

What's up?
Busy prepping for the Superbowl party. Will be back on Monday.
Can't really remember too many specifics from IC session on Friday. Just that we talked about moving and how important is it to me to live in SF. Ultimately IC said I need to decide if I want to be in this R first before making any other decisions. That's all fine and dandy, but HOW do I make that decision? That's where I'm stuck.

I was reading another thread, hhh maybe, talking about how the WAS will be the one with doubts in the future as to whether or not the decision to leave was the right one. That's exactly how I feel--will I become the WAS and leave a good R because it's just not good enough only to realize a few years down the road that it was indeed the right R for me? Argh! I hate just going round and round in circles.

Another good weekend. Saturday was spent cleaning and shopping and general party prep. Sunday we cooked together and that worked really well. Had 17 people show up and everyone crowded into the family room. The food was a huge success and we had more than enough drinks (my biggest fear is running out of booze!).

We're going out of town on Friday night. I don't know the destination, it's still a surprise. My BFF advised me to go on the trip and see how I feel after that. I'm not sure it's going to do anything to sway me in one direction or the other but I'm open and really hoping that it does.
Posted By: hhh Re: Swimming against the current - PH in piecing - 02/10/10 02:43 PM
Dear Pearl,
I'm glad you had a nice weekend and a fun SB party! Sounds like the cooking and activities together were nice for you. I also find cleaning vert therapeutic - last week I threw out a lot of old stuff as I get ready for the move, it felt good!

I SO feel what you are going through. Those exact thoughts/confusing swam around my mine for a long time - and sometimes I'd get even MORE confused in IC..thinking about the pro's and con's of both scenarios which can seem to be argued either way.

But I have a question - did these doubts come up mainly AFTER the A, or were they there beforehand as well?

Glad you are going on the trip and have fun..live in the moment and try not to think about things too much.

Sending you peace and love and looking forward to a buddy in SF!
((pearl))
-hhh
Good question hhh

I never doubted the fact that we would spend our lives together before the A. It wasn't even a question. But after this breach of trust I have had several friends come forward and say they didn't think we would stay together and that I could do so much better. I'm not someone who lets friends and family make decisions for me, but OTOH, I'd also hate to be the person who ignores the advice of loved ones because I'm too entrenched.

Argh!
(((Pearl)))

I think it is a typical advice from friends and family, it is expected they would come forward and say something like that.

You think you will spend your lives together, then the breach of trust happens, and you don't know what to believe anymore. I've been there. I have no advice.

Enjoy the trip! Your parties sound like fun.
Drive by hello, Pearl... off to a CABI party! Cute stuff! I know you'll want to peruse... I'm getting the patchwork boyfriend jean, the Cloud trench, and the cloud knotty cami. www.cabionline.com.

I have their black egyptian turtleneck, and a couple of wrap t's. AWESOME! A bit pricey, but you'll wear them over and over. Well worth it! And, timeless!

Ok, I checked it out. Some of it is cute, some not my style. I can't wear those boyfriend jeans because I have a long torso and short legs--nothing that cuts the line! I'm trying to change my shopping style altogether. Buy fewer pieces and focus on uniqueness and quality. Basically, stay away from chain/department stores in favor of boutique items. But I'm not totally there yet. Sometimes you just need a plain tshirt for cleaning.

Hope you had a great time at the party!
Hi Pearl

I am with you on changing up the shopping style. I have been doing this recently. Buying unique qulity pieces in boutiques as opposed to chain store stuff I may see athousand people in. That being said, its how you wear the stuff that's important. I think I am somewhat ecletic (did I spell that right? brain is tired tonight...)and I will mix low and high end. I am also not a matchy type of girl. I like to mix it up.
Hi Wholeagain

I guess it is fairly typical, but I was honestly shocked because of who it came from. One was my best friend in HS. BF played on her softball team for a couple seasons and she is really my only gf in Seattle he liked. And she really seemed to get along well with him so for her to say that was out of the blue. The other was BF's best friend's wife. They are the couple we used to do everything with. When the guys were roommates we basically all lived together. We've vacationed together, we are godparents to their daughter. For her to say that they thought we would break up until we moved to AK was shocking. Prior to that move we'd lived together for four years and had a house.

The comments about how no one thought he'd ever do something like that (cheat) were much more expected. Even my mother was in this camp.

Now I think more friends would prefer I left him and start over fresh but they are completely supportive of my decision, whatever it is.

But what is it???
Argh! ((()))

Did any of your friends tell why they thought you would break up? Where do they think he's falling short?

On a lighter note, someone talk me out of buying hoochy shoes!
http://www.ninewest.ca/store/images/products/fa09.PG.NWDEMODE.BLACKLE.PD.jpg
The ones who said that cited the fact that we are very different and come from different backgrounds.

It's true that we are opposite in many things: temperament, logical v. emotional, hobbies, taste in music, etc. But I always felt that the differences were good for us, that meant we were complementary and not just the same. We do have things we enjoy doing together and share similar values.

Our backgrounds are different, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. I grew up in an upper middle class family in the suburbs of Seattle and went to Catholic school my whole life. BF grew up in a blue class/middle class family in a small town in the midwest and went to public school his whole life. But we both come from a family of three kids, were raised Catholic but don't practice, aren't very close with our families and don't want children.

I don't know why they think I can do much better than BF (their words). I would say that some just don't know him that well but not sure why my gf from HS thinks that. Maybe I should ask her.

RE: the shoes, they're cute but I just have a problem with anything with a platform. That automatically makes me think trashy. Sorry. Or hope that helps. wink
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr

RE: the shoes, they're cute but I just have a problem with anything with a platform. That automatically makes me think trashy.


I know! That's why I asked. lol You have also reminded me, I already own a pair of "weapons of mass destruction". They are not that bad, it's less than 3" for heel and platform combined. I don't know why my coworker called them that! lol

As for your friends comments and being different, I can relate to that. When our M first hit rocks, H's best friend said that H and I were so different he always new we would break up. I was like "What!?!" If that's what he was telling me, I can only imagine what he was telling him.

Did being different cause problems in your R?
new = knew
It has caused problems in the communication. I tend to get angry, explode and then talk things out right then. BF wants to take in all the info and sit on it for a few days before responding. It's very difficult and that's why I stopped pushing him to talk after the first year. Big mistake. But at least we understand that now and are both trying to make accommodations for the other person's style.

Other than that, I never saw it cause any problems. We had our separate hobbies and took trips alone but I love that about us. I don't want to feel like I'm living with a clone. Because he's handy he taught me how to do basic repairs on my car and around the house. Because I grew up eating Chinese food I introduced him to dim sum. Stuff like that.

Of course when he was having his A he insisted that we were too different and didn't have anything in common. He cited his love of playing softball and volleyball. So I asked if OW played softball and volleyball. Uh...no. Yeah, that's what I thought. When he wrote me a letter asking for another chance he included a long list of common interests.

I called my gf but just got VM. Hopefully I'll be able to talk to her tomorrow.
Pearl {{{{{hugs}}}}}}
Communication, who doesn't have problems with that? As far as personalities go, it's better to be different (I think. Sorry for hijacking with my own examples, but me and H have very similar personalities, so when there was something to talk about it was diamond on diamond).

I think more of a lifestyle difference when they say "But you are so different!"
Cutter, thanks for the hugs.

Wholeagain, I agree, I think it's better to be different. But after BF kept saying over and over that we'd be better off with people more similar I can't help but wonder if he's right. Would I be happier with a man who enjoyed going to museums and the ballet and generally more social?
It all comes down to what one person is willing to do for the other. I know alot of couples who have loads in common, but they just don't want to do things with each other.

On the flip side, I know many couples who are very different, yet they do what the other wants because they understand that it's important to the other.

Pushing it further. If you were sick with cancer and couldn't do anything. According to him he would leave because suddenly you don't have anything in common.

If your boyfriend is saying to go with people who you have more in common with, it's being lazy. Plain and simple.

Any and every R takes work on both parts.
Pearl,
I think it is great you and BF are different. Think of all the new and different things you have experienced with him that you might not have done if you were more similar. I can say the same thing if my situation. For example, H got me interested in mountain biking and I broadened his horizons in ethnic foods. For activities I know H is not interested in, I reserve those for friends who like the same stuff as me.
So your interests like the museum/ballet can always be enjoyed with great friends and then you and BF can try and find some new hobbies together. And it does not really seem like you two have a problem keeping busy - your social calendar seems pretty packed.
Hey Pearl,
FWIW I would choose opposites over clones any day. You can always find something in common - no matter how hard you have to look. If you only have common interests its hard to find your own voice or personal time. Just my opinion....

(((Pearl)))


T
Viva le difference! smile
Thanks everyone. Yes, I tend to agree that differences are good. That's how we experience new things and expand our horizons.

And stuck, BF said that back when he was deep in A fog, now he's back to thinking our differences are good and we're also pursuing new hobbies together.

I'm off to pack for the mystery trip weekend. Have no idea where we're going but I've been told to pack two dresses. Think that means I need to redo my toes!
Can't wait to hear about it! wink
Two dresses!

cool!

I'm on the side of differences in couples--not in core values, of course, and I think similar backgrounds can help...but I think it can be more fun if he goes off to play tennis while you go play Mah-Jong--come back together at the end of the day to talk about it. Take each other to the social groups that form around those interests.

As long as there are things that you do enjoy doing together, I don't think you have to be joined at the hip for everything.

Might even get a bit boring, no?

Have a great trip!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I'm off to pack for the mystery trip weekend. Have no idea where we're going but I've been told to pack two dresses. Think that means I need to redo my toes!


Looks like he's meeting his "wooing requirement".

I'm very happy for you.
True Dudess, he is wooing. And yet I still broke down on the plane because the movie triggered the memory of finding the text messages on his phone. And I'm back to thinking all the fabulous trips won't take away the fact that he cheated on me.

BTW, we're in Manhattan, one of my favorite places. We went to a show last night & are on the way to a matinee now. This is all for me bc he doesn't like musicals.

MF & all, I can't log into my DB FB acct from my phone.
Hey! Pearl!!

Wash that thought right outta your head!!! For crying out loud!!!

Manhattan! Fab! Truly one of my fave places, as well! I'm so jealous!

I'm sure you're not having ANYTHING good to eat, either!

Love it!
He is wooing you and showing you how much he cares--dragging himself around to musicals.

Take a deep breath and enjoy. Set the worry aside if you can. Look at all the fabulous shoes around you!

I'm going to post my shoe collection on FB: sorrells, merrils, keenes, barn boots, ski boots, hiking boots...

I did like Nelly Furtado's shoes in the opening ceremonies of the Olympics!

And please have a street pretzel for me!
Pearl... so happy for you! NYC! Love it. We had an amazing trip there in 2002 and stayed in Manhatten... will never forget it. It's been too long...

Enjoy! Live in the moment... the other stuff can wait for now. :-)
Originally Posted By: avermont

I did like Nelly Furtado's shoes in the opening ceremonies of the Olympics!



Aver - They were FAB, weren't they!!??!?!?
Av, realized after lunch that I didn't have a street pretzel. Bummer BC I love them! Didn't see Nelly's shoes, will Google them when I get home. Didn't buy a single thing! Making good on my no shopping until I get a job plan.

Sitting on the plane waiting to go back home. It was a nice weekend, great surprise. Only bad thing is now that I know which shows are on Broadway now I want to come back for a week in April or May.
Pearl,

You lucky girl. I love, love, love Manhattan.

No shopping? Wow, your discipline is to be admired!!!
And the dress was sumpin' pretty special too...or at least how she wore it!
Did see a clip of Nelly on the plane. The Dsquared dress was cool (I love that blue) as were the shoes. I'm not a huge fan of ankle straps though.
Pearl,
I am jealous you went to NYC. I so want to go there. I have been bugging H that we should go there together to celebrate our 40th birthdays this year. I love traveling but have not been on a holiday for ages. I think it would be a great way for us to reconnect without the kids around.
Ok, here's the weekend update:

I thought we were going to SF since we had discussed going over Thanksgiving before the Rome idea came up. Was totally surprised when we walked down the gates at the airport and stopped in front of the Laguardia gate. I have been to NYC many times with girlfriends or by myself, only once with BF and that was for less than 24 hours to pick up my car. When I'm there I love to go to Broadway musicals, shop and visit museums. The top three things BF doesn't like to do are...you got it. So it never occurred to me that he would book a trip for us there.

On the plane I was watching a movie and there was a line that reminded me of the first text from OW I found on BF's phone. Immediately I was back in that dark time and started crying. I was thinking that no amount of fabulous trips and gifts can make up for what he did. And again wondering if I can live with this for the rest of my life.

I pulled myself together when the plane landed and we headed into Manhattan. BF booked a nice hotel near Times Square where I like to stay. We froze our extremities standing in the tkts line for tickets to a show that night then had dinner in a nearby Irish pub. Off to the show: Chicago. Love the show, hated this production. The new "celebrity" star was absolutely terrible and the rest of the cast was average. Plus we still paid a lot of money for pretty bad seats. Sigh.

Sunday morning it was back to tkts only to realize they didn't have anything I wanted to see. We decided to enter the lottery for West Side Story front row tix to the matinee and BF got the last pair! We ended up split, each of us on the center aisle. It's a great production--the kids were all good, even the understudy Tony. So it made up for the previous show. BF enjoyed it, lots of dancing and catchy tunes to hold his attention.

BF had asked a coworker who used to live in NYC for a restaurant recommendation so we ended up at a great Italian place on the upper east side that is a neighborhood joint but also had a wall of celebrity patrons. The food and ambiance were great and BF said he could get used to going to nice Italian places. That's a 180 for him because in the past I would often want to go out for Italian and he nixed it because he "doesn't like pasta." That changed after we went to Rome. wink

Monday morning we slept in, packed and headed down to Chinatown. We missed the new year parade on Sunday but still wanted to have good dim sum, something we sorely miss about living in Seattle. Found a good place and tried some new dishes. We wandered around shopping for a bit because he wanted to see where I get the knockoff handbags and fake watches (the guys on Canal St) then it was time to go.

All in all it was a great weekend.

Back to worrying about what to do long-term tomorrow.
Pearl -

The bottom line, he made an amazing effort. Let us know how to help you with your thought process!!!
Overall sounds like a wonderful weekend! You deserve it! smile
I hear ya on the triggers, and the on-going thoughts about wondering if all the positive efforts in the world can ever make it ok. In the end, nothing can ever make being betrayed "ok", and we all have to decide if we can live in a R that is scarred by that. We each have our own journey through those questions, and I have a lot of empathy for your struggles with that.
Sending positive thoughts your way while you continue to look at your long term choices...
Hey Pearl,
I have a thought... not sure if it will actually help or not.

Seems like you haven't really forgiven BF for what he did. Seems to me that you are trying to put the cart before the horse. If you haven't forgiven him yet - whether you end up together or not - you can't really decided IF you should stay together.

My thought is maybe instead of focusing on whether or not you should be together long term... you should focus on forgiveness??
Once you've forgive you will be free to decide whether or not you two are really compatible??

I just got my recent book order - one is called "How Can I forgive you - the power to forgive and the freedom not to" I also go "Love Must be Tough" "Art of Seduction" "Not just friends" so at least I have some fun reading ahead. I'll let you know about the forgiveness book - seems to me that's the thing that will help me put away the hate and move toward indifference.

Seems like he's trying to do his part - he did a GREAT job planning a trip YOU would love. That counts for something... I'm not sure what smile

Not sure this helps... Just my thoughts!!!

T
Thanks Tal, that is something to think about.

The forgiveness issue is a tricky one for me. He refused to ask for forgiveness for so long and it really pissed me off. By the time he did I was more angry about the fact that he didn't ask for so long.

I think I have forgiven him for the affair. I understand what each of us contributed to the problems leading up to it. I understand why he, wrongly, thought it was the only way to feel better. I know that he is truly sorry and is sincere in working on changes to make things better.

But there is a little piece of me that doesn't forget that it felt like pulling teeth to get to this point. I was beating my head against a wall and ready to give up several times. I wonder if it will always be like that--he will do as little as possible until I am ready to walk away and then he'll step up with a big gesture to smooth things over for a while.

That's what I don't think I have forgiven for--his behavior after the fact.

Guess I should put that book on my library list.
I just noticed that book in the book store... by the same author as AFA if I remember correctly. I almost bought it, but thought I've got enough reading on the go so it is one for down the road. Talia, let us know what you think...

Forgiveness is a process IMHO. It's not a one time thing. You may have forgiven him for the A, but you are still going to need to keep doing it over and over when the hurt and anger resurface. For me, I feel like I have made the decision to forgive but am now in the process of that on a day to day basis. And, with a betrayal like this, it is a loooooonnnng process!
Someone told me that when I truly forgive H I will see the A the same way I do the women in his life before me... Not sure I believe that but who knows.... I may never have to actually forgive him. The way I see it those are things I can choose to deal with but if I don't its not a huge deal unless he wants to come home - which it appears he doesn't.


Interesting thoughts in general


T
For the first time in a while I am furious. I'm so angry I'm shaking.

It started with my exercise class this morning. There's a woman in class who looks like OW. When I noticed that I started wondering what I would do if OW walked into the class. I shook it off, or so I thought.

This afternoon I was writing an email to my BFF and told her I was pretty sure I'm going to move to SF. I realized why I've (almost) made this decision. I brought the topic of moving up with BF about three weeks ago. He told me he needed time to think about it. Fine, I know he needs to analyze and then come back. But not a word about it since then. I'm sick and tired of being the one responsible for starting every serious conversation we have. If he's not going contribute to the discussion then I'm going to make decisions unilaterally. He can go along or go alone. So now I'm perterbed.

I talk to BF this afternoon. He asks if we're still going to dance class tonight. Why wouldn't we go? Oh, I don't know, maybe you don't want to go today. I love Lindy Hop. I love taking these classes and I want to start going to the Friday night dances. If he doesn't want to go tonight then he should just say so instead of trying to put it off on me. Like everything else.

I start to fix dinner. I can't find the casserole dish I want to use. I can't find the cat food spatula. This is an ongoing little thing--he does the dishes but he doesn't put things back where they belong so I am often searching for items when I'm cooking. Now I'm spiraling down into a full blown episode. Why the hell am I staying here in this house where he brought and f*cked that whore? Why am I staying with someone who treated me with such utter disrespect?

BF calls to tell me he's leaving the office. It's late and he's barely going to make it home in time to get to dance class. He can tell I'm pissed off about something. And now, self-fulfilling prophecy?, I don't want to go to dance class because I can't stand the thought of looking at him or being that close to him.
Maybe you've identified the pervasive issue with him - avoidance, easy way out, not dealing with things directly and honestly.

Here, he obviously had some big feelings about the moving to SF issue, and as you say, he does not approach. He doesn't say, "I think I'm going to have to work late tonight and I might be quite tired by dance class time, is it really important to you that we go tonight?" Also, failure to disclose pertinent info about stuff he did with OW and flirty emails from other women. Of course the biggie is - having an affair instead of talking with you about his unhappiness. Sort of a general spinelessness.

I get it Pearl. I really do.

Please take some time to cool off tonight and think things through. Seeing the OW look-alike was a big trigger. Your concerns are valid, but make your decision when you are feeling calmer.
Yow, that all sounds hard.

How very hard to bring up such a big topic: let's move to SF...and then hear...radio silence. Hello? do I have to bring it up again? what do you think about it?

Is this sort of communication something you can or have tried to work thru in MC?

It would be very hard to live with that. Next time: what do you think about having a baby? and waiting...and waiting...for him to speak up about that.

But, overall, you were triggered, and more sensitive, and more upset than you otherwise might be.

Hopefully you can take a deep breath, and confront BF on this-and big topics like moving to SF--when you are more calm.

How does he feel about moving? What holds him where you are--work? friends? family?

Sorry it's a rough patch--and I was enjoying hearing how sore you were after PB class!
Thanks Dudess and avermont

BF came home and said "Why are you mad at me?" Several reasons. He says nothing and just stands there. I was still shaking and decided this was not the best time to launch into everything. I don't think I want to discuss it right now. He goes to change his clothes, I go upstairs and start bawling in the bathroom. After a little while I go back downstairs to get my computer and told him I'm probably overreacting right now so I need some space to cool off and retreat to the bedroom.

Originally Posted By: Dudess
Sort of a general spinelessness.

That's it exactly. I go back and forth between thinking I need a man who has a backbone and won't let me get away with crap and thinking it's good that we have different temperaments because I don't know that I want a R with someone else who's argumentative and emotional.

And it is a major character flaw but no one is perfect. I'm lazy and spoiled and it affects BF's life negatively. But he's willing to accept me as I am. Or at least until he gets sick of me again and has another affair. Which he swears will never happen.

av, we haven't been to MC since getting back together. Yes, I think we need to because obviously there's still work to be done. But I didn't want to waste the time and money unless/until I decided that I wanted to stay with him. Is that putting the cart before the horse?

What's holding him here? He has a good job and he loves the lifestyle we have here. He likes that it's sunny all the time and he can golf, do outdoor activities and can afford to travel, go out to eat and do all the other fun things we do. He does tend to get wanderlust so I'm not sure he wants to stay here forever, but I know he's worried about moving somewhere that's super expensive and losing the standard of living.

The immediate problem is that we're spending all day together tomorrow. We're working on the bottling crew for the local whiskey distillery in the morning then have the afternoon free since BF had to take the day off. We have dinner reservations with friends and then we're all going to a comedy show. It's supposed to be a fun day but I'm worried that I'll still be pissy and ruin it.

And no worries on the kid discussion: I am not having them.
Pearl -

Wow. Bad day, huh? I'm sorry!!!

The OW-look-alike was a big trigger. I have no experience w/this, but can only say... have you really forgiven him if this type of thing keeps coming up? He, obviously, makes some great efforts for your relationship. What's missing?

And, the "talking..." A lot of LBW's here deal with this same thing. Not sure what the answer is, because it JUST SUCKS. They talktalktalk about everything else in life, but what's important!

HUGS FRIEND
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Originally Posted By: Dudess
Sort of a general spinelessness.

That's it exactly. I go back and forth between thinking I need a man who has a backbone and won't let me get away with crap and thinking it's good that we have different temperaments because I don't know that I want a R with someone else who's argumentative and emotional.

And it is a major character flaw but no one is perfect. I'm lazy and spoiled and it affects BF's life negatively. But he's willing to accept me as I am. Or at least until he gets sick of me again and has another affair. Which he swears will never happen.


Even if he doesn't have another affair, he does need to learn to speak up. Does he accept you as you are, or does he tolerate certain things because he is afraid to speak up. Maybe he does have a problem with you being lazy and spoiled and he wants the cat food spatula kept somewhere else, damnit.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
we haven't been to MC since getting back together. Yes, I think we need to because obviously there's still work to be done. But I didn't want to waste the time and money unless/until I decided that I wanted to stay with him. Is that putting the cart before the horse?


IMO, good counseling can help identify problems and determine whether they are deal breakers or workable. I think that his avoidance is something that he can change.

BTW, there's a book called something like 'Too good to leave, too bad to stay' that can help bring some clarity.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
The immediate problem is that we're spending all day together tomorrow. We're working on the bottling crew for the local whiskey distillery in the morning then have the afternoon free since BF had to take the day off. We have dinner reservations with friends and then we're all going to a comedy show. It's supposed to be a fun day but I'm worried that I'll still be pissy and ruin it.


Well, then just stop with the pissy. The problem will still be there when you wake up Sunday morning. Enjoy yourself in the meantime.
Originally Posted By: Dudess
Even if he doesn't have another affair, he does need to learn to speak up. Does he accept you as you are, or does he tolerate certain things because he is afraid to speak up. Maybe he does have a problem with you being lazy and spoiled and he wants the cat food spatula kept somewhere else, damnit.


That is a huge issue for me. I've been on the phone with two gfs who have talked me down off the ledge since last posting. The first one is finishing her doctorate in clinical psychology so I trust what she says. She thinks the meltdown could be physiological, either depression or hormones. I've thought about that before but then I think it's a copout for my laziness. I remember how I felt last year when I got the prescription for ADs and that was MUCH worse. Hormones could play a part in how I can go from 0-bitch in two minutes.

BFF noted that BF's spinelessness is apparent in his work life also so it's not just with me. I told her that I wish he would call me on my crap and she agreed. She thinks it's a sign of caring and involvement. I've brought it up before and maybe he's making small movements toward openness and I just don't acknowledge the baby steps.

I have that book and read it right after the bomb. I remember that the only sticking point for me was wondering if BF really liked me as a person. I can't remember what his one thing was, of course he was already deep in affair fog so who knows what he would think now. I've been meaning to reread it this week but just didn't get to it. I'll make it a priority next week.

After I hung up with BFF I decided to make some kind of peace for the sake of tomorrow's plans. I apologized for being pissy earlier and explained that I was very angry and needed to calm down from that and we can discuss it later. So now he just came to bed and I'd better go because I'm the one who said it's bedtime.

Thanks for being here!
((( Pearl )))

I second your episode might be of a physical nature. I always get pissy and easy to anger when premenstrual. Unfortunately I often realize it after I have an episode. Sounds like you are handling it much better than me. You are being mature about it by recognizing and trying to make peace.

The catch about being hormonal is that if anyone from a close circle comes across as brushing me off because of that it only fuels my fire.

Regarding your bf not speaking up. There are books by Gottman on "what makes M work". He's talking about different types of handling conflicts in R: conflict avoiding, volatile and validating. Per Gottman's idea, any of these types are ok as long as both partners are supporting the same type.

There is also a book "How to make M work without talking about it". There are books on any idea out there, lol.

Have a good night sleep!
Posted By: hhh Re: Swimming against the current - PH in piecing - 02/26/10 03:17 PM
Dearest Pearl,
I'm sorry you had a rough day yesterday, and I feel for you. I went through the same stuff - angry at H for never addressing things/speaking up and then the resentments and frustrations would boil on both sides over time. There were times I snapped I was so frustrated with his passivity..and we got to the point of eggshells a lot. The unspoken annoyances. I agree w others that MC or getting some of these issues (that really get to you) out in the open before you move is a good idea. Wait until your calm and let him know the things that are on your mind, not in a confrontational manner but an honest and open one. See how he responds. That may very well tell you a lot.

Punch a pillow really hard. I just did that...get your aggression out. I also think women in general get more wound up at times over things than men - whether its hormones or whatever. I did not like how my brief experiment w AD's made me felt at all..I felt worse. Herbs and acupuncture have done wonders for me, however. I have a great place in SF that I'll tell you about if/when you do come.

I hope you are feeling a bit better today. I am thinking of you and sending you lots of hugs.
((P))
-hhh
Hey (((Pearl))) I am making an exception to my "break" from the boards specifically to respond to you b/c I actually feel like I have something to offer to this (which I haven't been feeling for awhile... crazy)

In my R I am the passive one. It has bothered my H for years. I know it. He has raised it many times. He often has accused me of the very words I saw you use "putting it off on" him... in other words, making him feel like everything hangs on him to decide, take responsibility for etc.

I am hoping my perspective might help you see things from your BF's perspective as well...

The passivity is absolutely NOT for lack of caring. It is the opposite. I know in my R it was precisely b/c I cared about my H's feelings/wants/preferences so much that I truly wanted him to be happy and wanted him to get what he wanted (eg. where to eat, whether to out that night or stay home etc.) It truly, truly, truly would not matter to me... he could never understand that. It made me happier to feel he was getting what he wanted than for me to insist on something I wanted. Or, there really, truly wasn't a preference for me anyway.... Does that make sense? I know my H has never been able to understand this, and it has frustrated him to no end, but I truly thought it was loving to be that way before. It didn't seem to matter how many times he expressed frustration about it, I still would respond that way because I wanted him to be happy. It has taken this crisis for me to really "get it" the degree to which things like that made him unhappy instead. So, I am working on 180's to be decisive, make decisions and just stick to them, speak up etc. But, let me tell you Pearl, for someone with my personality (and maybe your BF's) it is so counter-intuitive to do that! I literally sometimes just pick a choice that I really am not invested in and "act as if" I am and be firm and decisive about it b/c that is better for our R.

I hope this helps.... I hope it might give you a window into your BF's world about this....
Rockedworld, do you think you're a conflict avoiding type? Have you read any Gottman's M books? I am curious how it works for others IRL. How do you adapt when you are not dealing with conflict the same way as your SO.

"Validating" type is when everything gets talked through.

"Volatile" is banter, confrontation.

"Conflict avoiding" is non-confrontation, taking turns.
First chance to sit down and write...

MF, yes, he's certainly trying but I'm not sure that it's enough. What he's doing is what is comfortable for him. I don't see him trying in the most important thing--communication. And I'm not entirely sure he's the best person for me or that this R is what's best for either one of us.

WA, I'm not sure I'm handling all these hormones very well. I'm just not used to having them (was on BC pills for over a decade) that it usually doesn't occur to me either until after the fact. Testosterone and sex drive be damned, I may get back on the pill to save my sanity!

Rocked, thanks for the passive perspective. BF and I talked about this stuff when we were doing the ATA exercises. I know that 95% of the time he truly doesn't care and is willing to do whatever I want, plus I do enjoy planning activities, trips, etc. But when I specifically ask for his input and explain that I would like to know his thoughts on a major life change I expect him to come back to me with something.

So it's been a couple days and we still haven't talked about it.

We went to the whiskey bottling Friday morning and BF ended up getting wasted. The head guy approached me and asked if I was with BF (I really wanted to say no). He said it wasn't a big deal and has happened with others, he just wanted to make sure BF wasn't going to drive home. I was mortified. I drove us home and BF slept it off in the truck in the driveway. I was so pissed off because he knows how I feel about the appropriate time/place for heavy consumption yet he continues to do it without any regard for my feelings. Please don't get the wrong idea, BF does not have a drinking problem. This isn't a daily/weekly/monthly occurrence. But it has happened enough that I'm sick of it.

When he finally came in the house I told him how much he had embarrassed me, to the point that I don't feel like I can do another bottling. He said he was sorry and that obviously he had embarrassed himself too. I said it's not obvious because he usually tells me that I'm overreacting and blows it all off. I ended the convo by saying that it's not the end of the world but I'm really tired of that behavior.

Today we went out to breakfast and BF announced that he's been given an opportunity at work. The last time he said this we ended up moving to Anchorage. Not so bad this time, he's going to be travelling for most of the next 2-3 months. I don't know what kind of reaction he expected me to have but I just asked if he wanted to do that or if he even had a choice. Yes, he wants to do it and no, he doesn't have a choice. I said fine, I can manage by myself no problem. He's going to a couple places that I really want to visit (Atlanta & Charlotte) so he said I can come with on those trips.

I think this will be good for me. I'll have some space and time to figure out what I really want. I can focus totally on myself and get back into healthy diet and exercise habits without distraction.

I've decided not to bring up moving for now. If he feels strongly about it or has any big questions or concerns he needs to bring it up. I'm not going to do his work for him. I'm going to make decisions with the information I have at hand and just go from there.
Hey Pearl, Pop in on TTA for me. OTM is now attacking me directly. UGH

Thanks! T
Busy apologizing...Pearl...a few weeks ago I think I owed you an apology and never gave it. So...

Thanks for the reminder on hhh's thread. While I didn't agree completely on your advice about what you felt about my posts, I should've let it slide. My apology, Pearl~
Hey Pearl! Thanks for your help/support! I will always want you around!!!


Hugs

T
No problem Tal.
Hey Pearl,

Just trying to catch up. I'm still posting on my MLC thread. If you make it to Charlotte or Atlanta let me know. I'm just 2 hours from either city. Is it a definite that your BF will be traveling so much? I bet he was surprised at how calmly you handled the news?
Hi Silver!

You know I was totally thinking about you when Atlanta came up. BF just got back from there tonight. I ended up not going because by the time he knew the dates the ticket was $500 and he was only there for two days. He'll most likely be going back so I plan on going with next time. The only problem is that it will be during the week so I figured you'd be at school.

Yes, he definitely will be travelling a lot. So much so that he's getting a bonus for doing this project. I asked if it was a "Pearl will be pissed that you're gone so much" bonus and he said yes. grin

I'm not sure how he took my reaction. I think he was a little hurt because I said I'd be fine on my own, I've done it before. That just slipped out but I honestly didn't mean it maliciously. And of course the non-confrontational non-communicative BF just looked at me and said nothing. It's frustrating but I refuse to drag his feelings out of him all the time. He needs to learn to speak up.

I'll let you know when I have some dates. It will probably take another week or two for them to get a schedule together.
How are you doing today Pearl? Were you able to work things out with BF?
Hi Dudess

I'm fine, thanks for asking. It's fine with BF, too. Just one of those things that we always argue about and will continue to argue about. He invited people over to the house without telling me. I hate that because I want to make sure the house is at least picked up if someone is coming. He doesn't think it's a big deal even after years of me saying it is a big deal to me. Then he says, "Fine, well I'm just not going to go out now." (The guys were coming here to meet him and go out together.) What does that have to do with anything?? Nothing. The issue was that he didn't tell me, not anything to do with him going out. Grr.

But things like that do set me off and I start to wonder again if I would rather just be single.
Ok, I just might keep him.

I don't know if he sensed some ambivalence or annoyance lately (not a lot but definitely some lingering)...just Friday I was at Whole Foods looking at the flowers thinking it has been a while and I want some spring blooms as a pick-me-up. I didn't buy them for myself because I've already overspent this month's budget but made a mental note to get some next week.

Today I was at my weekly volunteer gig and came back from an off-site meeting to find flowers on my desk. Note read, Happy Monday! Love, BF

It's because I once told him I only like to have flowers delivered if I'm at work so I can enjoy them all day and everyone else can enjoy them too. But I haven't had a job in a few years so he hasn't sent me flowers since then. He also decided it meant I didn't want to get flowers at all which is definitely not true! I just don't see the point in paying extra for delivery if it's just coming to the house.

Anyway, it was a lovely surprise and made my day.
Ahhhh, that's so sweet!

Definitely worth giving him another chance.
The flowers are a lovely gesture. I'm glad he did that.

Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
Just one of those things that we always argue about and will continue to argue about. He invited people over to the house without telling me. I hate that because I want to make sure the house is at least picked up if someone is coming. He doesn't think it's a big deal even after years of me saying it is a big deal to me.


I would find this very annoying too. I'm not clear whether he is saying that having the house picked up when people come over just isn't a big deal to him, and therefore he has trouble remembering to inform you,

or

Is he saying it isn't a big deal to him and therefore it shouldn't be a big deal to you either, so he's not going to bother telling you?

If the latter, I find that troubling. Sometimes things matter to other people that don't matter to us. When the request is so simple, we don't have to understand it or agree with it, you just give the other person the simple courtesy.

Is there anything which is important to him that you don't think is a big deal that you might start 'forgetting' to do? whistle
Yes, Pearl, keep him!

Haven't been over here in ages! LOVE the initiative by the BF!
Very thoughtful gesture by BF. He does seem to be trying....
Thanks ladies.

Yes, he is trying in some regards but we haven't had a R discussion in a few months. Part of me thinks it's bad because we're just slipping back into old patters, part of me thinks there haven't been any serious issues to discuss. I want to have a check-in convo but I also don't want to always be the person who initiates these talks.

Dudess, I think it's more of the former but also some of the latter. And that is exactly why it bothers me so much. I have stated numerous times how I feel about it. I understand that it doesn't bother him (the house being picked up) but the fact that it's one of my pet peeves should be enough for him to remember to tell me.

For now I'm choosing to put this in the category of the 60% of things that couples always argue about and never resolve.

The plan right now is sort of a lack of a plan. I need to get my act together and get a job in SF. Once all the moving stuff starts to happen we'll see how things shake out.
Your bf gets some brownie points from me for the flowers.

If I remember correctly you and your bf are undecided on a move to SF. Are you going ahead with looking for work in SF and watching him react?
Yes, that's the plan. I tried to have a discussion with him about the move. He said he needed time to think about it. That was two months ago and he hasn't brought it up. I haven't either because I think it's his responsibility since he's the one who asked for more time. If he isn't going to uphold his end then I'm going to make decisions based on the info I have. That is that I want to live in SF. So that's what I'm going to do.
Hey Pearl! Just checking in...

I'm going to play devil's advocate...
BF seems to be putting in the EASY effort... Avoid the tough convo's but send flowers....

Focus on getting things ready for the move and see what happens - you will get AN answer no matter what!!

Hugs!

T
Hey Tal

Those are my thoughts exactly. That's what I've been concerned with since beginning piecing. I'm taking the easy way out right now because I have made my decision to move and I'm focusing on that. If I have fun with BF during the job hunt then it's less stressful for me. Selfish, I know. But I think there's part of me that's counting on him not moving so I don't want to rock the boat until necessary. I'm in no rush.
Is it possible he would flip if he finds out? I am sorry if I sound negative. The whole ordeal has taught me to look for most possible negative outcome.

Are there any incentives for him in moving to SF?

((( Pearl )))
He won't flip out. He's extremely conflict avoidant. Plus he knows it's what I want to do. I think he's just avoiding it now because he knows how lazy I am when it comes to finding a job.

Incentives for him to move? I will be there. Honestly I'm unsure if he would like it. He did like Seattle but while there are similarities it is still much more urban (than where we lived in Seattle) and therefore more crowded and more expensive. He loves the weather in CO and I'm not sure he can handle going back to no seasons, fog, and mild all the time.

I'm trying not to mind read and predict the future. That's why I'm just going to focus on finding a job and let things happen from there.

Thanks for your concern WA.
Have I got this right, pearl?

You are starting job hunting in SF, and are heading there with or without BF?

How will you handle the job hunting? just by email from home? and see if BF picks up on all these calls and emails and "help-wanted" ads coming in from sunny CA?

And then see if he initates R talk?
Yes, going to SF with or without BF. Job hunting from here, need a job before I can move.

He knows this is what I want. I talked to him about it, asked what he thought about moving, the pros and cons. He said he knew it was what I wanted, he didn't think he had any input because I had already decided. I said I know what I want but I'm willing to hear his opinion so I can make the best decision based on all the information. He said he needed some time to digest. This was now over two months ago. He's had enough time. If he chooses not to have the conversation with me then I will make my decision based on the information I currently have.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
he didn't think he had any input because I had already decided.

If he thinks he has no say it's no wonder he's not bringing it up.
Pearl, can you put his pants back on him? wink Let him be responsible? Trust him to make the right decision to move to SF? grin
Hun, what is you positive answer on SF?

Just a thought. Sometimes we fight so hard for our rights and independence that men forget or never learn how to be responsible for both of us (them?). Sorry my English is escaping me, I should go to bed. Happy Easter!
Basically I'm wondering whether you and your bf have had some passive-aggressive dynamics going on. Whether there is a finer way to influence him.
That was the point of having that convo, WA. I told him I wanted to discuss it and find out what he was thinking about it. I said I understand that there are lots of reasons not to move, too, and I wanted to discuss them all so we could make the right decision. Yes, I want to move to SF but I also want to do what is best for me, for him, and for us.

I think when it comes down to it that BF will move to be with me. He said before he would because it's what I wanted. I'm just not sure he will like living there. I'm much more of a city person than him. But ultimately I'm ok with that. IF being in SF is what will make me happy and BF is unhappy then I can live with that being a reason to split up. In Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay one of the criteria is how you envision your future lifestyle. We already can't agree on how we want to retire (small town v city) so SF will be a trial run. And I may decide it's not where I ultimately want to be, I don't know. What I do know is that it's where I want to be right now and that if BF will not give me any reasons not to go then I'm going.
Sounds fair enough to me, Pearl.
Hey Pearl. Just wanted to say Happy Easter and Spring!

Sorry I disappeared for awhile. I'm busy cleaning and repairing my house. My xh finally moved all of his stuff but not without another ridiculous email trying to postpone ("one of our cats has cancer").

I shot back a curt response but because it's Easter and I'm a lady too, I'll save it for when I update my thread next week.

If your BF doesn't want to lose you he'll move too. I've been reading Why Men Love Bitches and He's Just Not That Into You. Very interesting and enlightening and they both align nicely with DB principles.

Take care.
Pearl,

FWIW~ I think you should go. Your young and if you don't like it...hey ~ chalk it up to a life experience. Just my two cents from an old lady!
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
I think when it comes down to it that BF will move to be with me. He said before he would because it's what I wanted. I'm just not sure he will like living there. I'm much more of a city person than him. But ultimately I'm ok with that. IF being in SF is what will make me happy and BF is unhappy then I can live with that being a reason to split up. In Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay one of the criteria is how you envision your future lifestyle. We already can't agree on how we want to retire (small town v city) so SF will be a trial run.

Hi PH,

I can relate to your dilemma. You see, for a long time, H and I have not agreed on the type of lifestyle we want to live, now or in the future. This is a major issue. Twice I moved across the country for H, eventhough it was not the right decision for us emotionally, financially, etc. After giving up everything, I soon discovered H was still not happy and both times he had an A. Right now I know H is not happy living back in our hometown and he has mentioned us moving. I've made it very clear that he has to do what he feels he needs to do but that I will not move away again. After all that's happened between us, I accept the fact that this may cause the end of our M. PH, at this point in your R (after all that's happened), as long as you realistically prepare yourself for all possible outcomes and you can live with any consequences that may arise, you have to do what you feel you need to do. I would suggest that you discuss your job hunting plans with BF and seeing that he hasn't expressed any concerns since the last time you discussed moving, that you have assumed that he is in agreement with the move.

Good luck with your decision!
Thanks for your input ladies!

Silver - I'll look for the update. Hopefully you got all of his crap out now! Major bummer, looks like I'm not making it to Atlanta. frown Going to Richmond, VA next week and BF is going to Orlando the following week. I'm passing on FL.

Sandy - I'm not *that* much younger than you! LOL. But I'm fine with going and if I don't love it as much as I did in the 90s then I'll go somewhere else. Back to the Emerald City is always an option but being that close to my family is not appealing.

Addie - I do think I'm fine with whatever happens R-wise after the move. I love BF but I know that I'd be fine without him. I've moved twice for his career to places I really didn't want to be. Now I know what I want and don't want in a place to live and I realize how important it is to me.
Hi Pearl! Been missing you guys. You and I are on teh same page with this!! Full steam ahead- the right answer will bubble to the top in the process!!!!

Hugs

T
Journal:

Maybe it's because I'm sick. Last night I just came to the realization that it's not going to work with BF. We have reverted to old behaviors and neither one of us is budging. We no longer have any R talks of any kind. I can feel that he's upset with me about things but will not speak up. I refuse to constantly be the one to start the dialog and always be the one to caretake the relationship. I know, something has to give. But I'm tired of giving. I'm just tired.

Things are comfortable. And stable. And nice. And I have gotten so used to being taken care of that I'm too lazy to get off my ass and take care of myself.

Reading newcomer stories make me incredibly sad. Knowing what's going on with mindfull upsets me and I feel insecure and doubtful and wonder why I ever gave this another chance. If I had just moved forward last year and not looked back like the MC recommended.

It's been a year of piecing. And I still don't know if this is what I want.
IMHO, Sometimes it seems like you didn't make a decision the first time. I mean, I know you wanted the R to work, but it didn't sound like you were 100%. In a few of your posts, it did sound like you were understanding where he was coming from one week, then the next it was "I want to move and want to know if he's the one".

Originally when you plan to R, it's 100% all in. It just never seemed like you were consistently like that. There was always doubt, or you were setting him up to fail in that you had expectations and quite frankly, I don't think he would have been able to deliver.

Just my 2 cents.
Wow, I haven't read your whole sitch but just this page. And we sound a lot alike.

I don't have any advice (clearly), but I am going to check out some of your older posts later today.
Mr. Bond,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree... how can any of us be "all in 100%" when reconciling after infidelity? In reality, we may agree to a reconciliation and it may appear we are all in, but we will reserve a part of our heart and maintain our doubts until trust is re-established and our fears subside.

Pearl,

As much as you love your BF, as much as you had invested in him and the R over the years... you have had serious questions of long term compatibility that are valid. Healing from infidelity makes those things even more pronounced, IMHO.

I am guessing it is common to revert back to old patterns... I am very concious of watching that in my M. But, the work it takes to keep addressing that and continuing to break out of those patterns... you have to really WANT this R to do that work. You say you are tired... of course you are. You have worked your A$# off to restore this R. The question is, do you WANT to keep doing that work?

Wait til you are feeling better and see if you are still feeling the same way.

((hugs)) You've been through a lot and you my support no matter what you decide.
Supporting you in your decision as well pearl.

I feel many of the emotions you describe. I just want to make a sidenote: would you expect a new BF to act the way you expect or wish you BF to act now? What would be your "requirements". Who can guarantee to you that they would come through for you no matter what? You know by now I assume that ANY good R is the result of hard work, no?

I am not saying to keep at it, I am saying make sure you dont get discouraged by things that will be present in all and every R you will make in the future anyway. Sometimes, after infidelity etc etc, we set the "standards" too high for our R because of the feeling of being right and al the effort we put in it.Standards should be high but also allow room for humans.
Take care
K
Pearl

We will support you, no matter what. Kalni makes a lot of sense so I will wait on your reply to her.

Kara
Kalni hit the nail on the head and described it much better than I did.

What "expectations" do you have? When you have preconceived "expectations" you're setting him up to fail.
Hi guys

Thanks for all your comments. I'm not ignoring you, I'm still sick and getting crabbier by the day because of it. Will reflect and respond when I'm feeling in my right mind (and body) again.

And if anyone knows a cure for fatigue and overall achiness please pass it on!
Oh, get better!
Hope you're feeling better!
So after I finally got over the bug, went on a girls' trip and came home with bed bug bites. Grrr. I have a huge allergic reaction to them and need to be medicated to get over the reaction. They are finally starting to clear up and I'm on my way to Vegas for another girls' trip/bachelorette weekend.

Still mulling things over.

Last night I dreamt we were getting married but everything was going wrong with the plans. Then I was getting attacked by bees and was screaming for BF to let me inside. He ignored me and I finally got in some other way. When I asked him why he didn't come when I screamed he replied, You're always so dramatic so I figured you were just overexaggerating again.

When I woke up shaking I was hesitant to turn to BF for reassurance even though I wanted it and needed it. I finally did and explained the dream. He told me everything was fine and cuddled me. Then he said it was silly to dream that because it would never happen. I told him that comments like that certainly didn't reassure me because he was just proving that he is dismissive of my fears. He was quiet for a minute then apologized. I'm still analyzing the dream.
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
He told me everything was fine and cuddled me. Then he said it was silly to dream that because it would never happen. I told him that comments like that certainly didn't reassure me because he was just proving that he is dismissive of my fears. He was quiet for a minute then apologized.



Geeeeeez, Pearl, that's a little HARSH, don'tchathink? He was COMFORTING you for goshsakes!

Man, you're a tough crowd.

Puppy
It was in the way he said it Puppy: very patronizing. I shook it off and as he walked out the door to work he promised he would keep any and all bees away from me.

But it speaks to a pattern. I voice concern about something and he totally dismisses it out of hand as irrational. He spontaneously bought me a scooter even though I said I didn't really want one (I had joked about it after seeing all the scooters in Paris). When I took it out for the first time it totally freaked me out because I had never driven a motorcycle before, only ridden on the back. He just laughed at me and said it was easy and there was absolutely nothing to worry about. I signed up for a motorcycle safety class so I could learn how to safely ride and get used to it in a controlled environment. I didn't tell BF about it until after I finished. He asked me why I wasted good money doing that. Umm, for education, personal safety and my peace of mind. And why didn't I tell him about it? Because I guessed how he would respond and I was right.
And by the way, does it ever get easier watching TV shows / movies that portray infidelity? Watched The Office tonight and got very uncomfortable. It bothers me that it doesn't seem to phase BF at all, that he can sit there and laugh about someone having an affair. I know it's a sitcom. I didn't need to turn it off or leave the room, but I wonder if this twinge will ever go away.
I know; me too. Three full years later, it still hurts.
((( PH )))
Hey Pearl...

I know what you mean about watching affairs - Just seeing something like that makes me sick to my stomach.

I have to agree with Puppy - tough crowd....

I am not in the best place to give advice but I think you might be looking for reasons why you two WON'T work, which could be the answer you are looking for right in front of you.

We all support you no matter what - HUGS.


T
Originally Posted By: pearlharbr
And by the way, does it ever get easier watching TV shows / movies that portray infidelity? Watched The Office tonight and got very uncomfortable. It bothers me that it doesn't seem to phase BF at all, that he can sit there and laugh about someone having an affair. I know it's a sitcom. I didn't need to turn it off or leave the room, but I wonder if this twinge will ever go away.


I was at the Y on a treadmill when that episode came on. I couldn't turn it off, and the screen was right in front of me. Normally I like the office but that episode where he met his affair partner's husband...I just couldn't find the 'funny' in that. I don't know if that discomfort every really goes away...
Update:

Things are pretty much status quo. Comfortable, good, but I still feel like something is missing and wonder if this is the right R for me.

Many people tell me that they don't think I am in love with BF. I tell them that I know I love him and people can't be in love all the time, it just doesn't work that way. Does it? I don't want to utter the dreaded ILYBNILWY, but I know that it's true. There is no longer a spark or a feeling of deep connection on my part. I was at my cousin's wedding a couple weeks ago and cried at their vows because the sentiment was so beautiful and I know I don't feel that way about BF.

On the flip side, we have a good life together. We compliment each other. We get along well. We have fun together. We weathered a terrible storm and our relationship has improved somewhat. We have been together for almost 10 years and that's nothing to sneeze at.

So basically it's the same old, same old.

The other night BF started a discussion about moving. The bottom line is that we decided that I will go to SF by myself to try it out. It's been 10 years since I left and I might not like it now. A place is always better when you're just visiting and perhaps I've built it up too much in my mind. Perhaps I will know that's where I belong and never want to leave.

Going alone will give me physical and emotional space to figure out what I want. I need to know if absence will make my heart grow fonder or if I will realize that I was simply avoiding change.

Plus it works out better practically speaking. I will work on finding a job and getting the house ready to sell. We already decided we want to downsize even if we end up staying here. God only knows how long the house will be on the market so BF can stay here and keep his job until it sells. He can come visit to see if he can handle living in SF and then we can make some decisions.

This is what I've been thinking about for the past few months but didn't want to bring it up because I thought BF would interpret it as me wanting to break up and go our separate ways. It makes me feel better that he's the one who voiced the idea so I don't feel like I'm somehow forcing or coercing him into it. He was crying as he talked about it so I know that it's not what he wants, but he acknowledged that it's something I need to do for me so he will support me.

I feel like a huge weight has been lifted and I can start moving forward. I already started looking for short-term rentals and feel motivated to actually start applying for jobs.

I always tell people to keep moving forward, it's about time I followed my own advice!
Well feel free to look me up when you're here in SF!
sounds like a good plan for you Pearl smile It must feel good to be taking action.
@H4L - count on it! I'm targeting Oct. 1 so I can miss the summer fog. smile

@Ruled - thanks! I just read your update and am sorry to hear that H is unwilling to step up. You're right, you are a success story no matter how things end up with H. You know how to reach me if you ever want to talk.
Pearl-

I have to wonder if what you wrote below applies to my X. Sounds like it. Compatible, great projects together, but he felt the lack of spark. It hurts to read this, but it is also good to think about.

[/quote]Many people tell me that they don't think I am in love with BF. I tell them that I know I love him and people can't be in love all the time, it just doesn't work that way. Does it? I don't want to utter the dreaded ILYBNILWY, but I know that it's true. There is no longer a spark or a feeling of deep connection on my part. I was at my cousin's wedding a couple weeks ago and cried at their vows because the sentiment was so beautiful and I know I don't feel that way about BF.

On the flip side, we have a good life together. We compliment each other. We get along well. We have fun together. We weathered a terrible storm and our relationship has improved somewhat. We have been together for almost 10 years and that's nothing to sneeze at

So basically it's the same old, same old.[quote]

You've been working at this a long time. You also say: it feels like a weight has been lifted.

That seems big, to me. I always believe that your stomach knows what the right thing to do is. And our heads and hearts often don't agree.
Aver, I feel bad that my post may have caused you pain. Perhaps X did feel the same way, but he should've been man enough to bring it up before he hooked up with OW.

I'm really trying not to just up and leave BF one day because I can't take it anymore. I've told him how I feel that something is missing, that I do love him and I'm trying to make it work. I'm doing things to bring the spark back and hoping it works. But I also want him to be forewarned in case it doesn't. I don't think it's fair to either one of us to continue for another 10 or more years if I don't fully love him.

I don't think there's anything more BF can do. He has made some changes for the better, but ulitmately he is who he is. And I am no longer attracted to that person. I used to think that I made my choice to be with him so I had to stick with it no matter how I felt now. After meeting someone with whom I have so much chemistry that my knees went weak when he looked at me I realized that I can still have that attraction to someone and I'm not sure I want to live the rest of my life without it. I know BF feels is for me and I am sad that I don't.

I'm not saying the feeling of the weight lifting is in regards to ending the R with BF, just with being able to make solid plans to move knowing that he understands why I need to do it and that he will be supportive. At least that's what my head and heart are saying. Maybe in the end you and my gut will turn out to be right.
PH--no worries, no pain. Just more insight.

I vacillated for years over whether X was the right guy for me. But one reason I stuck was exactly what you said: [/quote]I used to think that I made my choice to be with him so I had to stick with it no matter how I felt now[/quote].

And now I can see that doesn't, or didn't, make sense. You both deserve to be loved, made weak in the knees, etc.

SF will give you both some space to breathe, and see what head, heart, guts say. I think they do all three have to align in order to know you are making the best decision.

Thoughts with you!
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