I don't know what to do. I'm really torn; act as if, or cut bait.
Those of you who followed my sitch know I set a boundary with H about his EA, LW. I said nothing but work contact. He agreed...and I trusted him.
I have since found out through my oh-so-trusty skills that he never stopped contact. Forty minute conversations are not no contact. Text messages (though not many) are not no contact. Her lending books to him? Yeah, not no contact.
Mostly there are short conversations. A few longer ones, like the aforementioned one after we had a blowup at Christmas.
On the one hand, I'm furious and feeling betrayed. On the other hand, *generally* things have been pretty positive between us and I sensed nothing untoward. I only started investigating after our issues at Christmas.
So, the only real difference is that I know. Should that change anything?
I cannot be her. I don't want to be her, because ultimately she is just a fantasy. Living with someone reveals the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm not perfect, but I always work really hard on myself. I will never reach a final destination on my personal work...and I'm tired of trying to measure up to this whore.
I am currently faking it, keeping one eye open, but I don't feel at all safe. I keep wondering when he'll cheat or decide to leave. I don't trust him anymore...and I wonder if trust can be repaired once it's been broken like he did. He still doesn't ask for what he wants...he still doesn't communicate.
Part of me wants to leave and get it over with. The other part of me wants to believe it could all be okay.
I don't want to live in this space for the rest of my life. Don't I deserve more? I can't do it all by myself....
SD
((((((((((((((((((((((((SD))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Doc
Hi SD....
When you set a boundary, did you set a consequence for breaking the boundary?
Often, our boundaries are 'all or nothing'....but that seldom works. Our boundaries mean nothing because we don't enforce a consequence that is too big, or we end the relationship when there were really other options.
What kind of consequence could you give that would be liveable for you?
Brainstorm first....try to imagine the outcomes of each.
Hang in there.
Wow SD,
Sg is right
SG I never really thought of it that way. I too have been going for all or nothing...
Doc
So...I see what you mean, but I need help thinking of what those intermediary consequences would be. Could you give me some examples? These boundaries were brought to MC last March as I was considering leaving...there were a number of items on the list.
I have considered going back into IC, but this time with the lady who was our MC. The idea of having to explain and give context all over again just makes me tired...and H doesn't want to go back. Quite frankly, we were in MC for two years, and I don't see what else can be done there. H just withholds communication...that hasn't changed on iota though he saw how destructive it was and we learned all sorts of strategies about how to communicate.
Know how I feel? Stuck. Waiting for a bomb somewhere down the road.
I still GAL and I have become the queen of acting as if. Maintaining my 180s and adding more. Know what the saddest thing is? I've lost my ability to trust this man or our relationship...really, any future relationship. I used to believe him, and I don't anymore. I don't know how to get past that. It's left me disillusioned about people, and it makes me sad.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on what else I could do. I'm tired, and I just want to give up.
SD
So, the only real difference is that I know. Should that change anything?
Your expectation is that he not have contact with the OW. He's not meeting that expectation. Therefore, something must change. You'll need some time to think about whether or not this is a M deal breaker. You did say that things were generally positive, though his communication skills need some work.
What would be a logical or natural consequence? You can disclose what you know to him, and share your disappointment and anger. You can sleep in separate beds for a week or month to gather your thoughts, and make a statement. Maybe you two need to be roommates for a week or more, while you gather your thoughts.
I think Act AS If is a good tool, when you have negative feelings, but you need to practice actions that promote connection. Your situation calls for limit-setting, and the implementation of consequences. It doesn't need to and shouldn't involve any major R decisions at this time.
Your H needs to see you acting with courage, self-restraint, and logic, not reacting out of fear. He's the one who needs to be feeling some fear.
If there's any acting to be done, it's acting with courage in spite of your fears and doubts.
CL
((((((((((((((SD)))))))))))))))))
I missed you! But under the circumstances I wish you weren't back (if that makes sense)
So H is still being the horses' bottom. I hope the red mark you have on your forehead from continuously bashing it against the table isn't too big!
I haven't got anything majorly useful to add right now, but will be keeping my eye out for you. i will have a think on this one ... I agree frustrating, you've asked for what you want, made it clear and still it seems he's not honouring that. All I will say is take no action just yet ... but you already know that.
I just want to say I'm here for ya!
SD,
I'm thinking some more about short-term consequences. I believe there are things we can do that can have an immediate impact on the R. There are also solutiions, that will take longer to have an impact on the R. There are also aspects of our spouses, that no matter what we do, will have no impact, or will only have an impact if we remove certain obstacles.
This is our dilemma when we have a situation like yours and mine, that cannot be tolerated indefinitely. Can we influence the situation so that our spouses no longer have to engage in unhealthy ways of coping with stress?
Even if we set strong limits with an ultimatum, have we removed the obstacles that influence the unhealthy behavior? I can give my W an ultimatum about sleeping elsewhere, but than she would feel trapped in a life she finds overwhelming. She needs more skills, and a different way of living.
I'm not sure what the obstacles are to your H's happiness. Do you have an opinion as to why he seeks out an EA? In my W's case, I need to help her manage household stress, keep myself happy and joyful, and do what I can to contribute to her happiness.
You sound like you are coping so well in so many ways. In what areas do you need to improve upon or do differently? How are you at practicing goodwill towards your H, or being empathatic to his struggles, or keeping joy in your life, or being more open and curious to the problems in your R, versus resentful, fearful, and judgmental?
CL
CL
CL and Jen! Thanks for stopping by and adding your thoughts and support.
CL, your thoughts are so on target. For me, I know my frustration for his continued issues with communication, his need to fix everything for everybody (even when it sacrificed time for us or things I'd asked for), my fear that after all of this, we were headed down the same path, etc. definitely spilled through. I'd brought these things to a few conversations, something that was a big deal for me as I'd always been afraid and never asked for what I wanted. His reply has always been, "I'm doing my best."
He is still afraid to speak up, and I guess my work is to make it easier to talk to me...I guess you could say it's an obstacle, even if I don't know what I'm doing to be so intimidating. I've worked really hard on being a good listener and not reacting. Heck, the fact that I have been able to pretty much hide how I'm feeling about him contacting LW is testament to that. Ideas on how to help him feel more comfortable?
Another obstacle is that he has continued contact with LW because of work. It's better than it was because he switched to part-time so he could start his own business from home and do the things he enjoys more (which was a great move for many, many reasons). However, he still has to associate with her. Most of the calls have been pretty short...3, 8, 12 minutes. However, from time to time, there are those long ones, and those are the ones that worry me. He's also gotten savvy enough to delete all of his calls to/from her on his phone--I've checked periodically and only found something twice. So, he's become sneakier and he knows he's wrong.
BUT...I can't do anything about that. What I CAN do is be the better, shiny-er option. Since the new year I've reinvested in my appearance, wearing much sexier clothes even around the house. I am stepping it up in terms of things we can do together, and I make sure I'm fully present when we spend time together. I see the benefits of these changes for our R *and* for my own well-being.
H wants to be a hero, a pleaser, a martyr. I am a pretty strong person...but I do let him help me when he can.
I just don't want to spend the rest of my life with one eye open...but I guess that's really work I need to do on myself, hmm?
SD
Wow, you have a lot of the same feelings I have about keeping the one eye open forever. I wonder that too. The answer is we won't know until we look back on this a say to ourselves..."wow I haven't thought about that in a long time".
Sister, I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be for you that he has any contact with her at all.
I will say it is very concerning that he is tryin to hide it by erasing things so he doesn't get "caught". That's amazing. I know there are different views out there about not saying anything or saying anything but personally you have been the better person and he is still doing that ... so how long do you let that go? It's so hard to know when to draw the line or let things work out on their own.
I really envy those on here that can turn a blind eye but I just can't do it. Personally, I would have to say something.. but that's just me and I don't know all the details. I can only imagine how hard it would be for him to not if she is in his world daily. Isn't that kinda like taking an alcoholic to a bar daily?
I know that I've really offered no good advice but I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop too. LOL kinda
Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex). I've actually been with them together, and she's not interested in him. I *do* think she knows he'd been interested in her (women know these things, and *I* knew it before I found any proof), and I *do* think she keeps him strung along by being all flirty and calling him and stuff. I think it makes her feel powerful and attractive. Incidentally, I found a picture of her online recently that shows she's gained tons of weight and looks old as hell. I am WAY cuter than her, and I would never interfere in someone else's marriage...which she did, back when this all started.
Know why I haven't said anything? I don't want my source of snooping to dry up. Let him think I don't know anything...and then I will choose for myself what I want.
It makes me tired, though. I didn't know until recently that he'd never stopped contact with her. There was nothing in his actions that said otherwise, so I guess I'm wondering if I should even worry. She is a symptom, yes? So then I have to be the solution, provided I'm willing and able to be that person.
Right now I'm willing to keep trying. I did, however, label her birthday on my calendar as "Fat Ugly Whore Day!"
I wish I could let it all go...contemplating going back into IC so I can keep working on me. Ultimately, that's all the control I have.
SD
Hi SD,
I'll echo Jen's sentiment - although I'm sorry you are having a rough time, I am always happy to hear from you. Missed you!
OK then, let's see what we can do for ya. First, let me just say that I wish I could smack your idiot H upside the head with a 2x4. What a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say!
And I have to say, your post sent a little shiver down my spine. For full disclosure, I will confess that every very great once-in-a-while I too succumb to the snooping temptation, even with no real hints of trouble to make me "go there." I'm thankful that I've never found any bad surprises - but I fully understand how hard it is to completely give up those insecurities that came from being bombed. (((Serious hugs)))
So, let me harp a little on my usual rant about OW. She's not important, an icky band-aid, remember? Whether she's fat and haggard, or a nympho supermodel, doesn't make a bit of difference. She could be hit by a truck tomorrow (don't get any ideas!) and it wouldn't make your marriage one bit stronger. Because if it wasn't her, it would be someone else - if your H is not committed to your marriage, there are always going to be plenty of opportunities for him to stray. So instead of her, let's focus on the real problem - his attitude.
It's been a while, and I confess my memory is vague. Did you ever confront H, so that he knows all about your having read The Letter, way back when?
Here's why I ask. It sounds to me like H is downplaying to himself the significance of his EA. ("Heck, we never even did nuthing.") Telling himself that as long as it doesn't grow into a PA, it's just a little harmless fantasy. SD getting all upset about it her own problem, blowing things way outta proportion. Does that sound about right?
Well, if that's where he's coming from, I think it's high time for that to change.
You said:
Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex).
Does H really get this? Does he understand that you know the full depth of his emotional betrayal of your marriage, and that this is EVERY BIT OR EVEN MORE damaging than if he slept with her? Betraying you with his body is one thing, but betraying you with his heart - only someone who's been where we have been could really know how much that wounds us. It's not all in your head, SD, and there's nothing trivial or inconsequential about it. If you don't think H truly comprehends the devastating impact of his past actions, then I think you need to spell it out for him - because that's the root of why a "harmless" 20 minute phone call sends you into a tailspin.
Bottling this up is clearly eating away at you. Maybe if what you're doing isn't working, then do something different...?
Now, before this thread gets totally off into the weeds of the dark side, I want you to tell us a lot more about the GOOD stuff. You said things have generally been positive between you - share some that! What's been good lately?
You said you're stepping up spending time with each other. GALing for yourself is always important, but so is GALing together! Don't just settle for getting back to having a mostly-happy marriage. You have already become the Jedi Master of Personal Growth; now think about how to generate some Relationship Growth as well. It doesn't have to be all heart-to-heart conversations and bare-your-soul weekends, either. Just make sure you are putting that time and effort into having FUN together. (Just for example, W and I are still taking dancing lessons, among other things.)
Hang in there, SD, and keep smiling!
Rob
OK then, let's see what we can do for ya. First, let me just say that I wish I could smack your idiot H upside the head with a 2x4. What a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say!
Yes. Yes he is. And you have my full permission to whack him a good one. :-)
And I have to say, your post sent a little shiver down my spine. For full disclosure, I will confess that every very great once-in-a-while I too succumb to the snooping temptation, even with no real hints of trouble to make me "go there." I'm thankful that I've never found any bad surprises - but I fully understand how hard it is to completely give up those insecurities that came from being bombed. (((Serious hugs)))
I'm glad you've never found anything. And yes, someone who's never been in our position can't understand that compulsion...that sense of never being 100%. I miss that trust and faith so much, and I don't see that I will ever get that back.
I have to say, I'd actually backed off a lot from it. However, after Christmas I put forth some extra effort to get access to something to check it all out. STRANGELY I was sort of comforted to find out that contact didn't start up again all of a sudden; it had just never ceased. I know that may sound weird, but if things are generally good with us and contact is still happening AND I never noticed anything, then it becomes less of a worry/crisis. That may make no sense to anyone else, but the best thing I did was dig deeper than what I'd originally found to see the big picture.
ONE thing I am sure of is that H doesn't fake anything well, so I'm pretty sure nothing is going on.
So, let me harp a little on my usual rant about OW. She's not important, an icky band-aid, remember? Whether she's fat and haggard, or a nympho supermodel, doesn't make a bit of difference.
Ah yes, but it gives me a perverse pleasure to know she has become EVEN MORE of a hag. Surely you can give me that sweet, sweet pleasure. And I don't want to run her over with a truck. However, I'd just ADORE it if she developed a horrible flatulence problem, her teeth turned funky green and black, and she started sprouting long gray hairs from her chin.
Yes, I know she's a symptom, and it's not even about her. It's about H...about how dang frustrated I am to have gone through as much MC as we did and to have personally worked as hard as I have on our M only to have him doing the same sh*t that contributed to the demise of our M in the first place. He still holds onto stuff and pretends it doesn't bother him. He's all wrapped up in the enlightenment cr*p, believing that he's able to just let things go and not have human feelings. Which, no matter how much we work on ourselves, is just not possible. So, instead of saying, "Hey, SD, you really ticked me off when..." or, "You know what I'd like more of? When you want to jump my bones in the morning," or whatever.
This I cannot do FOR him. I have expressed my desire to hear what he has to say, many times, in many ways. I have told him my fear is he will just hold on to things like before instead of letting us work together to address our issues. I don't know what else I could possibly do on that front. At some point it has to be his responsibility, right?
It's been a while, and I confess my memory is vague. Did you ever confront H, so that he knows all about your having read The Letter, way back when?
Here's why I ask. It sounds to me like H is downplaying to himself the significance of his EA.
Well, if that's where he's coming from, I think it's high time for that to change.
You said:
Well...it sorta helps that it wasn't a PA (though I think the long term effects on *me* are worse than if it had just been about sex).
Does H really get this? Does he understand that you know the full depth of his emotional betrayal of your marriage, and that this is EVERY BIT OR EVEN MORE damaging than if he slept with her? Betraying you with his body is one thing, but betraying you with his heart - only someone who's been where we have been could really know how much that wounds us. It's not all in your head, SD, and there's nothing trivial or inconsequential about it. If you don't think H truly comprehends the devastating impact of his past actions, then I think you need to spell it out for him - because that's the root of why a "harmless" 20 minute phone call sends you into a tailspin.
I finally told him I knew about The Letter at the end of December. He said that his IC had told him to write it as a way to express himself and get his feelings off his chest. I asked if she'd told him to write multiple drafts including one that begged her to consider him, and he had no answer. His main response was, "That was TWO years ago!" I also told him then (as I'd told him a couple of times before) that his emotional attachment had hurt me in a way that sex with her never could...that the emotional attachment was by far the worst thing anyone had ever done to hurt me. I don't know how to spell it out any plainer than that.
Can I confess something here? You might remember I developed a friendship with a guy while H and I were going through all of this...he was going through something similar with an ex-GF. Although we kept it platonic, we were both really attracted to each other. Ultimately, we ended our contact with each other out of respect to H as we were reconciling.
Well, there are times I wish I'd gone ahead and cheated on H. Let him feel even a fraction of the pain he caused me and has NEVER apologized for. Still doesn't get or care...or maybe can't accept that he did such a horrible, human thing. 'Cause H is the "good guy" to everyone, considers himself an upstanding human being, and to admit what he did and how badly he hurt me might be impossible to his self image. He preserves that picture at all costs...hence the martyrdom.
There have been times, lately, where I've fantasized about calling my friend up and doing just that. Not nice, but it's honest and true and I would never act on it.
Now, before this thread gets totally off into the weeds of the dark side, I want you to tell us a lot more about the GOOD stuff. You said things have generally been positive between you - share some that! What's been good lately?
You said you're stepping up spending time with each other. GALing for yourself is always important, but so is GALing together! Don't just settle for getting back to having a mostly-happy marriage. You have already become the Jedi Master of Personal Growth; now think about how to generate some Relationship Growth as well.
Rob
Well, generally we get along. Things have been pretty smooth. We go out to eat, to movies, etc. However, most of the really good stuff has been in the past month, and it's mostly because I've really stepped it up myself. (I wish I didn't have to do all the work...H wants things, but he won't ask, won't mention them, just waits for me to figure it out. Mostly I have to snoop to know anything...and I use that information to work on us. *sigh*)
So, in the past month I have made sure that when we're together, I do nothing else. I can multi-task really well, but you're never fully present when you do. So, if we're watching TV together, I snuggle up next to him and we chat about what we're watching. I have been suggesting activities--movies I want to see, restaurants I want to go to, people I want to hang out with, etc.--instead of waiting on him. I have been initiating sex more often and being available more often. ML has actually improved a lot in the last month, and that has everything to do with me trying to set the other stuff aside and just enjoying the sexual contact.
I have also really ramped up the way I dress. More dresses and skirts, more cleavage (tasteful, not hootchie), more heels. I make the conscious effort to accessorize and always look amazing. It's been good for my PMA too.
I journal every day and consciously work on letting go of the small stuff, working on my PMA so I am pretty positive. I would love it if I could have a bad day though and just be grumpy without it becoming a bad thing. I am a real person after all, and I do have bad days. I'm not much of a pretender.
I also initiated two big home improvement projects that have made a significant impact on our home. H is beyond excited about that.
Yesterday he told me I've been amazing lately, that he's so proud of me. I don't know what to think of that; I sort of feel like he's my parent or my teacher. So I earned a gold star? I want to be loved because of me, not because I've been a Very Good Girl. Incidentally, his number and duration of contacts with LW have decreased significantly since I stepped it up. Not gone, but way less. Stupid nasty band aid. You know, that gooey one floating in the pool.
So, that's it. Glad you chimed in as you always make me think. Plus I miss you guys...we spent a long, long summer and then some together.
I just wonder when I won't worry or wonder anymore, you know?
I'm glad you've never found anything. And yes, someone who's never been in our position can't understand that compulsion...that sense of never being 100%. I miss that trust and faith so much, and I don't see that I will ever get that back.
Part of me says that's part of "growing up" - putting the innocence of youth behind. But, that's just the cynical old fart part of me talking.
I have to say, I'd actually backed off a lot from it. However, after Christmas I put forth some extra effort to get access to something to check it all out. STRANGELY I was sort of comforted to find out that contact didn't start up again all of a sudden; it had just never ceased. I know that may sound weird, but if things are generally good with us and contact is still happening AND I never noticed anything, then it becomes less of a worry/crisis. That may make no sense to anyone else, but the best thing I did was dig deeper than what I'd originally found to see the big picture.
Yeah, that actually does make sense to me.
Ah yes, but it gives me a perverse pleasure to know she has become EVEN MORE of a hag. Surely you can give me that sweet, sweet pleasure.
You got it! Just more proof that the typical screwed up MLCer "trades down", eh?
Yes, I know she's a symptom, and it's not even about her. It's about H...about how dang frustrated I am to have gone through as much MC as we did and to have personally worked as hard as I have on our M only to have him doing the same sh*t that contributed to the demise of our M in the first place.
...
I don't know what else I could possibly do on that front. At some point it has to be his responsibility, right?
Yep, yep, YEP!
I finally told him I knew about The Letter at the end of December. He said that his IC had told him to write it as a way to express himself and get his feelings off his chest. I asked if she'd told him to write multiple drafts including one that begged her to consider him, and he had no answer. His main response was, "That was TWO years ago!" I also told him then (as I'd told him a couple of times before) that his emotional attachment had hurt me in a way that sex with her never could...that the emotional attachment was by far the worst thing anyone had ever done to hurt me. I don't know how to spell it out any plainer than that.
Good for you! I know how very tough that must have been. But I think that, in your case, that you needed to get that off of your chest.
Ya know, I have never confessed all of my snooping to my W. I applied the rule "Will this get me closer to my goals, or not?" and this was the best answer. However, if she was still in contact with that PoS OM, I believe it would be a much different story at this stage of the game.
Can I confess something here? You might remember I developed a friendship with a guy while H and I were going through all of this...he was going through something similar with an ex-GF. Although we kept it platonic, we were both really attracted to each other. Ultimately, we ended our contact with each other out of respect to H as we were reconciling.
Well, there are times I wish I'd gone ahead and cheated on H. Let him feel even a fraction of the pain he caused me and has NEVER apologized for.
...
There have been times, lately, where I've fantasized about calling my friend up and doing just that. Not nice, but it's honest and true and I would never act on it.
I hear ya, SD. I think everybody has revenge fantasies from time to time. But, bottom line, you're better than that.
Still doesn't get or care...or maybe can't accept that he did such a horrible, human thing. 'Cause H is the "good guy" to everyone, considers himself an upstanding human being, and to admit what he did and how badly he hurt me might be impossible to his self image. He preserves that picture at all costs...hence the martyrdom.
Maybe that's your lever. You COULD just keep peeling away that veneer of the "good guy" with regards to his contacting LW. You know, regularly ask him out of the blue, "So, had any long chats with your adulterous b!tch mistress today?" Nah, I don't think you should do that. But it's tempting, eh? Tear down that fantasy.
Jumping through lots of very good stuff to my favorite part:
Yesterday he told me I've been amazing lately, that he's so proud of me. I don't know what to think of that; I sort of feel like he's my parent or my teacher. So I earned a gold star? I want to be loved because of me, not because I've been a Very Good Girl. Incidentally, his number and duration of contacts with LW have decreased significantly since I stepped it up. Not gone, but way less. Stupid nasty band aid. You know, that gooey one floating in the pool.
Now this time, I think you are over-thinking it. Take it at face value, girl. You HAVE been amazing lately. Hell, you've been amazing for quite a while, but it's nice that he's finally noticing. Don't spin his being proud of you into something insincere or condescending. You are a terrific woman, and any man with half a brain would be D@MN proud to have you. Just smile and enjoy the compliment.
So, that's it. Glad you chimed in as you always make me think. Plus I miss you guys...we spent a long, long summer and then some together.
I think of you and Jen (and lots other DBers too, but most especially you two) as some of the best friends I have ever had. Any time you want to just keep in touch without the DB atmosphere floating around, don't forget that we're over in the Alternate Universe too. Be happy to see you there.
Speaking of which, really cool news! W, D16 and I are going to take a trip to the UK this summer (assuming we don't lose all our savings in the financial mess, that is.) I'm already lining up Jen to go out to a London pub some afternoon. Is that cool or WHAT?
I just wonder when I won't worry or wonder anymore, you know?
I do know. It keeps improving for me with time - long, long periods go by now, where I don't think back on the Bad Old Days. Life is good, and getting better all the time.
Hooray on the trip! I'm jealous...although H and I have been talking about spending 2-3 weeks in Europe with a Eurorail pass and no set plans this summer. It would be a HUGE 180 for me...I like structure and planning. But I'm working on letting go and trusting that H will get things done...he always does.
I think what I really need to do is go back into IC to work on this issue. For my sanity, I need to let this go. I can't control anything H does, and I have to find my way back to personal peace one way or the other. Skanky whore or not. (Couldn't resist!)
SD
Hooray on the trip! I'm jealous...although H and I have been talking about spending 2-3 weeks in Europe with a Eurorail pass and no set plans this summer. It would be a HUGE 180 for me...I like structure and planning. But I'm working on letting go and trusting that H will get things done...he always does.
Wow, no planning? Outside of my comfort zone, WAAAAAAAAY outside of my W's. Hope that works out OK!
Gee, maybe you can arrange to be in London around July 15-20. Now THAT would be a party of epic proportions!
Gotta point out, I found these two quotes from your posts really interesting, side by side:
He's all wrapped up in the enlightenment cr*p, believing that he's able to just let things go and not have human feelings. Which, no matter how much we work on ourselves, is just not possible.
I think what I really need to do is go back into IC to work on this issue. For my sanity, I need to let this go. I can't control anything H does, and I have to find my way back to personal peace one way or the other. Skanky whore or not. (Couldn't resist!)
I hope that you find a happy middle ground on "letting go" that does give you some peace, somewhere between "I need to do it" and "It's just not possible" - it kinda sounds like you have your work cut out for you!
I know you'll "get there"! Keep being wonderful!
Rob
Wow, no planning? Outside of my comfort zone, WAAAAAAAAY outside of my W's. Hope that works out OK!
Gee, maybe you can arrange to be in London around July 15-20. Now THAT would be a party of epic proportions!
Well, we've booked the trip! We found crazy-good airfare to go during my spring break, so I'm going to take a few days off before that week and we're going to go. Right now we're getting a sense of what we'd both like to see, travel times on rail, etc. When I say no planning, I mean not booking lodging or planning to be in a certain city on a certain date. I've always wanted to travel that freely...it is going to stretch me, but I can do it!
So, today is V-Day. Honestly, I've always hated V-Day. There's so much pressure and hoopla around it that it seems contrived. I'm much more the type of person who appreciates and enjoys the small or large gestures throughout the year. For example, H bought me a bouquet of flowers in September because I was stressed out about work, and that meant tons more to me.
And yet, my H is a romantic. He *does* do the small gestures, but he also really likes V-Day without going into debt over it. Given where we were just a few weeks ago, I was thinking it was going to just be low key. Yet H got up early this morning, and when I came out he was sitting there with flowers, a card, and a gift certificate to my favorite spa. Tonight we're going out to eat somewhere that he says we both love but isn't a part of the traditional valentine's hoopla.
What surprised me was how I felt about it...it was actually nice. I didn't second guess the really amazing things he wrote in my card, and I didn't think about BFUW (LW's new acronym) at all. Something has shifted in both of us...I feel like I've begun to surrender.
The contact with BFUW has been nearly non-existent lately...so maybe my hard work and refocus is paying off. Or maybe H just read my journal where I've been writing about giving up and not guaranteeing I'll stick around. It doesn't even matter why...things are working between us a lot better.
So now I'm going to go take a nap and rest up for tonight.
Hope all of you are doing well and having a nice celebration!
SD
Hi SD, Sounds like a great V-day indeed! Good for you, just letting go of the dislike-it-because-it's-so-commercialized vibe and just enjoying the good parts.
Wow, you are brave "winging it" on a big trip like that. Can't wait to hear how it goes!
So, as I posted here not so long ago, I'd found out H was still in contact with LW after he'd agreed on no contact but work. I've been working really hard to dealing with my own reactions and feelings to that, but still feeling irritated because he was lying to me simply by hiding it. How do you move forward if you don't have trust in your partner?
Contact had reduced considerably over the past couple of months, and H and I have both really stepped it up on our own to work on our M. Things had definitely shifted, suddenly, for us. Still, every time I saw that they'd had contact, I got upset and would withdraw a little each time. I've been journaling, making art, and processing it all with a really good friend, but I never said anything to H because I feared he'd just become a better liar.
Well, in the past 2-ish weeks, I've run into LW THREE times. Mind you, I've never run into her out and about before. Yet, in the space of 2 weeks, I have to see her ugly mugs three different times. I don't believe in coincidences; this was too extraordinary.
The first time she nearly hit me with her car in the parking lot when I was going to pick up some lunch before a meeting I had to attend. My stomach ended up in my throat, and it really rattled me. I congratulated myself for not cussing at her or ramming my car into her SUV (a strange car choice for a single tree-hugging woman, but okay).
The second time I ran into her at the Y where she works. The thing is, she didn't use to work at that branch, so I didn't expect to see her there.
The third time was today as I was sitting and getting my hair cut. In she walks to get her frizzy hair dyed by the stylist directly behind my stylist. I know she saw me...and just ignored me. I was thankful for that, and I just followed her lead. But, WTF??? The salon is nowhere near her house, her work, or the former branch she went to. It's not trendy or anything other than an ordinary salon. Yet somehow it's HER salon too, and she's scheduled an appointment at the same dang time I'm there.
I had a moment of sheer panic, and I have never been so happy in my life that my male stylist is over the top funny. He kept cracking jokes and I honestly had a great time for the remainder of the time I was there. I gave him an extra big tip.
So, I came home, and H asked how the cut went, how my day was, etc., and I made the decision then to just say it all out loud. I told him I was pretty sure LW was stalking me (not really), as I'd run into her three dang times in the past two weeks. We ended up having a really long conversation where we talked about the following things:
1. How I knew he was still talking to her. Initially he said, well I work with her, and I said yeah, but a 40-minute conversation and her being the first person you call when you get back into town after we just had tough time over the holidays isn't work related. He then admits that he called to catch up with her since he "couldn't" go to her Xmas party (then shifted to "didn't") and it was just friends stuff.
2. I told him that the reason I can't let this go is that he's lying to me about having no contact, and that if it were really on the up and up, he wouldn't have to lie to me. I told him I wasn't willing to have a marriage where we lie to each other. It keeps us apart. I told him I'd rather him tell me he wasn't going to stop talking to her than to just become a better liar.
3. I also told him that a real sticking point for me is he's never admitted that he crossed a line that really damaged our marriage. I told him I considered what he did an affair and explained about emotional affairs. I told him that was why I couldn't accept a friendship between them. H really listened to me and admitted that he'd done something that damaged our relationship and that he'd realized that and pulled back to work on us in MC eventually.
4. H said he really was just friends with LW, and that he doesn't believe in or even know how to drop someone as your friend. How could he explain that to her? I asked him how he could shift from having feelings for her to just seeing her as a friend. He told me it was just a decision he made, because he was with who he wanted to be, me. He said he chose me, chooses me daily, and loves me. I don't know that I completely buy the whole he just switched off his feelings for her thing, but I do believe he's committed to me.
5. We both agreed that things are getting really good between us as we've both been working really hard on the R.
6. H said that if it was really going to hurt our R, he'd figure out a way to end his friendship with LW. He doesn't know how you do that, but he said that was his problem and not mine. (Me, I say it's just you don't answer her calls and/or cut them short when they drift toward non-work subjects. But that's his learning, not mine.)
It was a really calm, really good conversation. I just told H I didn't want a marriage where we couldn't be honest and real with each other. I want the truth, and I don't want there to be anything we can't talk about.
I am so proud of myself and how far I've come. I actually said what I wanted to say and needed to say, and let go of my fear/worry of how H would react. I spoke up for myself, and everything is on the table about what I know and how I feel about it. It feels so darn good.
How long did this take? Nearly three years. H started mooning over LW in February of 2006, he bombed me in May 2006, and I feel like I have the opportunity to really let go and really move forward in March 2009. In the process, I've learned to be brave and honest and authentic. That's pretty darn good.
SD
keep your eyes wide open, and be very careful SDG. Been there done that...
Good luck and lots of prayers.
TOH
It was a really calm, really good conversation. I just told H I didn't want a marriage where we couldn't be honest and real with each other. I want the truth, and I don't want there to be anything we can't talk about.
Excellent SD - no blaming, no agression or arguments. Just a calm and clear stating of wants. Outstanding
I am so proud of myself and how far I've come. I actually said what I wanted to say and needed to say, and let go of my fear/worry of how H would react. I spoke up for myself, and everything is on the table about what I know and how I feel about it. It feels so darn good.
It's great - the elephant in the room has been pointed out, brought out into the light and is being dealt with. Often the fear of dealing with it is greater than the action of dealing with it.
How long did this take? Nearly three years. H started mooning over LW in February of 2006, he bombed me in May 2006, and I feel like I have the opportunity to really let go and really move forward in March 2009. In the process, I've learned to be brave and honest and authentic. That's pretty darn good.
SD
I hear you! It took me about 3 years to feel comfortable to. it's been a good journey and i've learned a LOT from it, but I never thought it would be as long as it was.
You sound good SD. I don't drop in so often these days, but I do think about you. You were like a best buddy to me in the Summer of 2006. Although we never met, I felt you were with me, having that laugh and enjoying life while our respective H's sat crying in their wet nappies! Here's to you!
Wow, now THAT sounds more like the SD we know and love. Way to go! I wish I had more good stuff to say - but I just can't think of a single suggestion that you aren't already doing, in spades. Very proud of you!!!!
STill...taggin along. FIB
wow Sd,
I need to go back and read up on ya
Doc
I can't believe it's been so long since I've posted on my sitch...a far cry from when the bomb was dropped 3 years ago.
Anyway, just updating, looking for some input on a few things, trying to put things down in writing instead of letting it rattle around in my head. It's clearer when I can look at it.
Generally, things are okay with H. Personally, I feel like I'm about to get sucked into a raging MLC. I'm having the thoughts...is this all there is? I've wasted my life...accomplished NOTHING, etc. Now, I know that's not true, I know these are crazy thoughts to a certain extent, but they are there, and the emotions behind them are STRONG. Some of it is...well, I guess I thought after the bomb and all of our work, things would be different between H and I. To a certain extent they are--we're a lot nicer to each other, and at least I speak up about things. So it's not bad, but...
And I know there is no greener pasture, just different shades. I know that no one else can make me feel better. I know these things. And yet...well, I wonder sometimes how H and I ever got together. What was it that united us? We have pretty different interests in terms of hobbies and how we'd like to spend our free time. H is passionate about music, about seeing every darn band on the planet, even if it's a local band no one even knows. I like music too, but I don't love going to concerts like he does unless it's a band I REALLY love. My idea of fun times is making art, writing, going out for drinks and dinner with friends, reading...
Now, H is into some of that too...but his friends and my friends are really different; he doesn't connect with my friends, I don't really connect with his, so we don't really have close couple friends to hang with. So, mostly, we go out by ourselves. Hiking...restaurants...local festivals...and it's okay, but...
We have similar tastes and beliefs about the world, but we don't really like to *do* the same things, and I wonder if it's possible to maintain a relationship like that. I try to enter his world, but he doesn't really ever try my stuff or what I'd like to do.
Truth? I'm a little lonely, and it doesn't help to have the whole MLC on top of this.
In other news...
Two LW pieces of information, one that actually helped me look at why I was hanging on to her so tightly, one I need your suggestions about.
1. I think I mentioned that LW puts out this "I'm so good and considerate and perfect," vibe to everyone. I mean, sunshine comes out her azz, and H buys into it. Anyway, I found out that when she was 19, she was charged as an accomplice to MURDER, but given immunity to testify against her then boyfriend. She hid the murder weapon for him, but said she didn't know he'd intended to go murder his ex-girlfriend. She'd thought he and his accomplice were using her car TO GO STEAL ELECTRONICS FROM THEIR PLACE OF WORK. And I don't doubt this, but she said she only hid the weapon b/c he threatened her.
No wonder she pretends to be a saint; she has something to hide. I don't know if H knows or not...I doubt it.
So, the reason any of this matters is because I bought into the idea that LW was better/nicer/more "good" than me...I bought into the same illusion that H did, otherwise why would he have pursued her? So, I kind of enjoyed the fact that she is just as flawed and messed up as the rest of us. It removes the mystique.
2. H has reduced contact with LW, but it's not completely gone. How much of it is work related? I don't know...there's really no way to know unless I put a voice recorder in the room where he works. I *do* know that the longer conversations happen when I'm not home (H works from home) or when H is out of the house. So that in itself seems like he's just working harder to hide it. OR maybe I am just insane.
I don't know how to get of MLC and the way I feel about H and my M right now. It's not bad, there's just no connection at all.
Thoughts?
SD
One more thing that I forgot in the midst of my rambling...
My H is a pleaser...to every other human on this planet. Because of this, he expects me to sacrifice along with him, sort of the expectation of a co-dependent pleaser thing. He never, I mean NEVER, puts himself first, and then he holds on to his resentment.
It was at the point where we were out walking and we stopped in at a grocery store because I wasn't sure we had anything for his dinner (H and I eat very different diets). We get in, and he becomes nearly paralyzed, asking, "Is this bad? What if we have something at home..." and on and on, just because I mentioned we *might* have the fixings for quesadillas at home, not sure if we do or not. Like because I mentioned it, I was saying it was stupid to be at the grocery store...YES, he really did go to that place, articulated it. I guess I'm of the thought, WHO CARES if we have oodles of food at home, if you want something from TJ's, GET IT. We spent all of $4, and he's all clenched up because he thinks maybe I might think it's stupid based on crazy thinking.
I was listening to a talk show therapist I usually think is a bit crackers but every once in a while has something to say, and she asked one of her callers, "Which parent's feelings did you have to spare growing up?" or something like that. Like, who did you have to put your own feelings aside for or there was hell to pay. Well, that person is his father, and H will drop everything to talk FIL out of his frenzy, to make him feel better...will change plans and expect me to turn on a dime to make FIL "happy," which we all know is not even possible. H articulates this concept as well, but he still gets sucked into the Oh no, Dad is upset, I have to fix it.
I try to step away, and that works so long as H is sane and not expecting me to get sucked into the frenzy.
An example:
My niece and nephew are in town, and we were going to take them kayaking today. FIL *begs* H not to do it (though it's totally fine with their parents) because 25-years ago H's brother tipped over in a canoe and "almost died" (according to BIL, he was just shaken up because it took him a second to get out from under it and he wasn't wearing a life jacket. So H, though he agrees FIL is crackers and we are just teaching our niece and nephew to be afraid, caves in to FIL. FIL then starts pushing for us to take niece and nephew to some wacky-mcCracky cheap-plastic-cr@p game place instead...which H and I totally disagree with. My niece and nephew don't ever just hang out in nature, walk, swim in the ocean, "be". They are always face-down in their DS games, to the point where last year, nephew said to me, "Well what are we going to DO if we put them away???" when I told him to stop playing the game as we were there to see them.
So then H starts caving to that, and we'd be stuck doing that if I hadn't put my foot down and said it was fine if he wanted to do that, but I wouldn't participate in something I thought was harmful. After all, the main point of us trying to do something with the kids on their own was to present a different point of view of how life could be lived and enjoyed.
H lives his life for other people's happiness...and because I don't, won't participate in that fruitless endeavor, it causes conflict. We've had the conversation...and he always spins it to compromising and being a good person and not caring what he's doing and enjoying the moment. When I ask him when any of these people he is living for ever does the same for him, he just stutters.
I get that it's not my problem, but he keeps sucking me into his personal drama, and I am a bad guy because I won't participate in insanity.
No wonder I feel crazy...MLC doesn't seem like such a bad idea to just give into sometimes!
SD
They say that one person's MLC is the initiator of another person's MLC.
You made it this far.....what's the right choice for you..for SDFG?
FIB
They say that one person's MLC is the initiator of another person's MLC.
You made it this far.....what's the right choice for you..for SDFG?
FIB
Wow, that's reassuring.
So I can blame H for my own MLC? Does that mean I get a free pass to do all the nutso things he did? LOL In some ways, I think it feels harder to know why I feel the way I feel instead of letting all h3ll break loose.
As to what the right choice is for me, who knows? I have one part of my brain stuck in batchittcrazyville and one part trying to pull the crazy part back to sanity.
Not sure which side is having
these particular thoughts, but part of me wonders whether I shouldn't just amicably cut my losses while I'm still young enough/cute enough to enter into a different relationship. I love my H, but I wonder what kind of a life we have together. And truly, I have these intense panic-laden moments where I think, "Is this all there is for the rest of my life?" and I just want to curl up in a corner and give up now.
See? I'm a nut job. I need a good guide to get through this MLC, because I may totally lose my mind in the process.
SD
SD...in reality.....this place looks like it's a snap to save your M when...in actuality..it isn't. It takes tremendous work and committment on BOTH parts to do so. Ya know what....sometimes....it doesn't work. IMO...after all this time here...the really TOUGH thing to learn and do...is to know the difference: what is worth fighting for? when do you realize the cause is lost? when should you keep going? are you in this for religious beliefs and standing 'forever'? Is the M happy and fulfilling or is it codependent? Are you holding on out of fear?
Once trust is broken..it's like your favorite coffee mug with the handle broken off. You glue it, but worry if the hot cup will plummet into your lap. No matter how hard you work and try...the doubt....never goes away.
I worked so hard here.....like you..and others....to save my M. I did the reading. I held back the anger and avoided the fights. Walked the Green Mile. I've gone to 'standers' dinners with 10 men sitting around a table...some still standing while their wives were either remarried or in flagrante delicto with another man as we dined. What is right: staying for the sake of staying when all has failed...or realizing that two people are just not able to support a healthy M anymore?
SD...this is not a 'you should D' post. Rob would shoot this to pieces...or will....when/if he sees it.
The answer still comes down to you SD. It still comes down to a long walk at the beach....a lot of introspection....and, since you still have the ability to do so, a lot of ? communication with H?
Do you have kids? Doesn't say so in your sig. Do you need an ear?
FIB
PS...I apologize..what is LW? F
Once trust is broken..it's like your favorite coffee mug with the handle broken off. You glue it, but worry if the hot cup will plummet into your lap. No matter how hard you work and try...the doubt....never goes away.
...
The answer still comes down to you SD. It still comes down to a long walk at the beach....a lot of introspection....and, since you still have the ability to do so, a lot of ? communication with H?
Do you have kids? Doesn't say so in your sig. Do you need an ear?
FIB
Your analogy about trust is spot on. I never, ever believed *my* H was capable of being this dishonest cheat. I've worked really, really hard, but I can't see him the way I used to. He could become Gandhi and I would still doubt him...check up...always. That's a huge lost to a M, any relationship really. Would you continue a close R with a friend who lied to you? How long?
LW= Letter Woman, my nice term for the whore. I found letters H was composing to her while we were in crisis, hence LW.
Now, she never returned the feelings. I saw them together, I know this for sure. However...
I honestly believe she enjoyed (enjoys) the attention, needs the validation that sunshine bursts out of her hoo-ha because she's so dang considerate and wonderful (because, you know, she was after all a criminal at one point in her life). She interfered with my M. She'd just gone through her own D too. She crossed the boundary, became his confidant, advised him, LAUGHED at me on his voicemail when I was doing my 180s calling me an alien.
I hate her.
But this isn't about her, this is about my H. He is a liar. I don't know what communication will achieve at this point as I've had really direct conversations with him about no social contact with her...how it affected me...how I perceived it as an affair. I have laid it all on the table without threats, only how I feel and what I wanted, and he agreed.
But he's a liar. I checked his phone last night while he was cleaning up the dishes, and she'd called and left a voicemail. So I listened to it. Snooping? Yes. Do I care? Nope. He lost any right to privacy when he continued lying to me. He actually deletes her number/name from his call history any time she calls/he calls. How do I know this? I check the cell record.
Along with the lying, it just pisses me off that he also thinks I'm stupid.
Anyway, the voicemail was her requesting that he send her a link to the place he told her she could buy a refurbished mac...which he'd coached her and advised her to do. Now, this wouldn't be a big deal in the ordinary world, but the agreement has been NO NON-WORK CONTACT. This is not work, and her offering to buy him lunch on Friday (since he's been so helpful w/a work project and w/this computer stuff) is DEFINITELY not work. He has to go film an event that she's the head of on Friday, so he'll just cover it up in that bullsh*t.
He's had words from...true, heartfelt words, and they mean NOTHING.
I deleted the voicemail, and I deleted her call from the call history. She'll say something I'm sure, and he'll know, but he won't ever say anything to me about it.
It's the hiding of it that concerns me...why hide things that don't have at least a kernel of wrongness to it?
We don't have kids...a whole other thing that just about breaks my heart now that I'm headed toward 40. I keep thinking H will just dump me and go have kids with someone else...and I think that might send me over the edge.
My H is so serious...so dang "enlightened"...and so unable to let go and be light-hearted and silly. I am a different SD with him than I am with my good friends, and it's because of reaction to that over the years. We don't have fun...and I come, again, to the question Is This All There Is?
I could go on in this M until I die...I feel like I have worked my butt off...and I think he thinks I'm the only one who should compromise or grow as he's already so enlightened and perfect. I want passion, joy, love, fun, laughter, exploration...I have tried to engage H in these things, and it's just not there.
It may be the MLC talking, but I wonder if I made the wrong choice. I do know that I married H because he was safe and I believed he'd never hurt me by being unfaithful, that I would become a better person myself because he was such a good guy. Did I settle? That's the question that's been in my mind for quite a while, and it's still unanswered.
A walk on the beach is exactly what's called for. H is out at yoga, will be back soon, and maybe I'll just be scarce and go see the ocean.
I've got lots to think about, just trying not to let MLC bull or emotions make decisions I'll regret.
SD
There are decisions you can make that are not 'fatal'. Have you thought about separation? Unfortunately, the stats say that it will end up in D.
Sadly, SD, I have posted over and over that when we come here, our M is in really bad shape..probably some of the worst case scenarios. Then, we come here and find 'hope'. We also find a great place of denial. This morning, my L said to me:
Do you really expect people to change a pattern that was developed in childhood? People go RIGHT BACK to who they were.
My favorite story is the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes. Did you read it as a child?
The Emperor's New ClothesMany of us come here and we drape ourselves in a cloak of 'hope for reconciliation' when we are unable to see the naked truth. Is this a place to save your M at any cost, or, is this a place to hide in fear and denial? Those stupid cliche's keeping coming back to haunt us:
- people don't change
- once a cheater, always a cheater
- once the trust is gone, it never comes back
Who coined those phrases?
SD...I have not followed your sitch to the letter but I have read a bit...both on my sitch and yours. You seem like a fine woman. I am ?jaded now since I am in my own D, but, I have a
retrospectoscope. I am NOT a religious stander (obviously), but, when is it time to let go and move on? When is hope lost? When does one enforce the ultimate boundary?
After 3 indiscretions in my own sitch, I threw in the towel. I KNEW my M was toast. All I can say is..personally...and not really knowing you as a neighbor or friend...is that it bothers me that your H has not honored your request. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
So, SD, H is texting the woman with whom you've asked him to sever non-business connections. If it were me, I wouldn't be found within 10 miles of that woman if I wanted my M to be saved.
So....what do you do? How do you get across to H that it is not acceptable yet, if it is your desire to continue/save this, deliver that message in a way that says you've had enough? Is it time for an LRT?
FIB
forever
liking
risotto
9003 times while screaming
yahoo in the air.
Loved your code, FIB. THANK YOU.
So, last night I blew. I'm too tired to retype it all, so I'm going to just copy and paste an email I sent to my best friend about what happened. DB? Maybe not...but I definitely did something different. Talking to my H calmly (the way he says he prefers) hasn't worked the last gazillion times I've tried to talk to him about the whore, so I raised my voice. Don't know why he doesn't listen if he doesn't like this SD...
---
I hope you've adjusted to being home and had an awesome session at your weekend classes!
Well, something H did at dinner last night triggered me and I brought out a giant can of whoop-ass on him. Basically, he was lecturing me about how we had to anticipate others' discomfort and, EVEN IF they say directly that something doesn't bother them, we are to STILL adjust our choices to accommodate what we think they really prefer. Basically, I was toying with the idea of making my family birthday meal @ [a local restaurant that puts on a drag show brunch}, and he was thinking it might be uncomfortable for his father. I said I'd ask FIL, but if he said it was okay and it really wasn't, then it was no longer my responsibility. Truthfully, I don't think his dad would have a problem with it. I think it's H WITH his dad that has a problem with it.
This just set me off, and I told him that if he wanted to sacrifice his ONE life trying to anticipate and spare others' discomfort, if he wanted to martyr himself forever, that was fine, but I wasn't going to do it. And then it hit me...he didn't give a sh!t about MY discomfort with his continued association with that woman, but he did flips and back bends for every other person on this planet, to the point he was more willing to accommodate for distant relatives or acquaintances more than he was willing to respect me or my feelings/discomfort.
So I kind of went thermonuclear, but in a good way I think. I did keep it focused on how I felt, but I also put everything out there. I told him I was tired of him lying, tired of him simply hiding things better, tired of him making concessions for everyone else, tired of him not respecting my feelings on this issue NO MATTER how he thinks I SHOULD feel about it. He returned with how he'd greatly reduced his contact with her, and I responded that the agreement was NO non-work contact, and that meant that if she wanted him to help her out with something, wanted to buy him lunch or even go out to lunch, wanted to talk about ANYTHING non-work related, it was crossing my boundaries.
And then I told him that he needed to get anything she'd given him out of my dam* house. I asked him to imagine how I'd feel if he died, I was having to go through his things, and found anything.
So then he gets mad at me...and tells me I should respect his privacy, and I tell him that his lying and hiding things, his choice to put THAT relationship above me and our marriage, has lost him his right to privacy because he'd proven he couldn't be trusted. I told him I'd never ever gone into his things before this all had happened, and that I was happy to stop after he'd proved through ACTION that he was trustworthy.
I also told him to make a choice, because continued contact with her meant no more contact with me. And I told him not to say anything he didn't mean, because if it happened one more time, I was going to kick him out and file for divorce the next day.
He says he's never stopped being friends or knowing anyone in his whole life, so how does he do this? I told him I didn't know, but it was his mess to clean up if he intended to stay in this relationship. He said he'd figure it out, but he's such a wuss that I just don't know.
I also asked him how he'd feel if I was still hanging out with the guy I met during that summer, the one who would have gladly taken the opportunity to get in my pants if I'd offered. He said it would bother him, but he wanted it to be my choice. I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--but that I'd made the decision to end contact with him out of respect to my marriage and out of the belief that it would be too easy to cross the line with him if things got challenging between us (me & H) again.
In the end he said he'd have to prove it to me through actions, and he would. Will he? I don't know, and I guess that's really not the point. I said everything I had to say in a way maybe he can finally hear it. He HATES it when I get to the point of raising my voice, but as I pointed out to him, I'd already tried this conversation, calmly, 4-times before, and he didn't listen, that the only time I ever got through to him was when it got to this point.
So, he feels (rightly) like he's been beaten up (not blaming me), and I feel dam* fine. He expects me to act angry, not want to be around him, etc., so he can't understand how I can go from that to talking about errands we need to run and hanging out reading on the couch together. I know you'll get it.
And maybe I shouldn't feel this way, maybe I should just get over it (which is true), but you can only do The Work and journal and clean up your vibration so many times before it becomes maddening. And he can do whatever he wants to, but I'm not willing to be in relationship with someone who won't respect a reasonable request, one that every single article and book on the issue says is essential.
If you're still reading, thanks for sitting through this. I'm really okay, and I also know that you'll tell me if I'm off track here. I SO MUCH appreciate that you are willing to tell me the truth, always. I just don't want to associate with liars, you know?
---
I reached my limit. What will H do? I don't know, but he's been duly advised. I don't need him for my personal happiness, and I deserve more in a R. Period.
SD
Wow. Hi, I'm new here, but this post really struck a chord with me. One of the things my H gripes about is that my communication style is 'gentle, gentle, gentle, ARMAGEDDON." The gentle stuff goes right past him, and then armageddon takes him completely by surprise and I get accused of over-reacting. He'd like something that's in between gentle and armageddon. I sorta think that if he'd just have listened to any ONE of the several 'gentles', that there'd never BE an armageddon.
I'm not sure I'll ever get the chance with him, but I've learned a lot about being more clear and direct, even if it's not so 'gentle'.
Kudos SD. WTG. Ya know...you've been thru the early DB crap. You walked on your eggshells. You avoided conflict like we all do in the beginning. You tried your calm and quiet communication.
You did your full blown DB stuff.
Now..reading the above...as Carrie says in SITC, "I like-ee".
You were firm.
You drew your boundary.
You are letting him know that you've had enough.
You are saying that there are TWO in an M..not three.
You've told him, now, that you are willing to file if he doesn't show YOU ...that your marriage is worth it.
I think you've done fine girl....WTG. My only advice to you now..is...to set a time limit in your mind. I don't care WHAT others say here...but...set a limit. You need to mentally prepare that you MUST have a plan and stick with it lest it show weakness.
Finally, as a joke:
I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--
and had a bigger......oh never mind (guys don't take that well....ROFLMAO).
FIB
Finally, as a joke:
I told him he was a great guy--fun, light hearted, ambitious, kind, good looking, funny--
and had a bigger......oh never mind (guys don't take that well....ROFLMAO).
FIB
LOL...good one!
H is kissing butt, big time, and so far, no contact at all. Not even work. But then I wonder, can he really man up and risk looking like a jerk by blowing her off when she wants to chat him up about something? I don't know if H has it in him to look like the bad guy (you know, to other people, because clearly it's been okay to look that way to me...though he doesn't see himself that way).
I'm adopting an attitude of curiosity. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my summer and taking care of myself. All I can do, really.
SD
SD...in the beginning, I teetered between 'curiosity' and the DB posters' recommendations of 'not going down cheeseless tunnels'.
I lean towards curiosity. Dr. Phil said in his book
Relationship Rescue that you 'own your marriage'. Sadly, in my own M, 'curiosity' got me answers to questions I was afraid to ask, but, painted a VERY CLEAR picture of what was going on. I don't regret that.
Once people get the endorphin feelings of the OP, the recidivism rate is high. That is the infidelity penalty we pay...trust. Nearly all books on infidelity will tell you that it requires more work on their part to undo this and rebuild the trust. BIG WORK.
Anyway, I think you did a fine job defining your borders. I mean, really, who wants to be continually hurt? I didn't. As time goes on, like most things, the hurtful episodes become more dim and, from time to time, I question myself...on whether I did the right thing. But...trust was never restored...and living right now....like you have been recently...is not healthy emotionally.
Curiosity and boundary enforcement...is the RIGHT thing right now, lest you live the rest of your life with H looking, snooping, hurting, wondering.......
FIB
(there is always
this as a last resort)
PS..your book arrived and I am reading it.
PS...I have an interesting pdf you may want to read that may apply in parts to H. FIB
Good job SD. FIB makes some interesting points about DBing and denial, etc.
My H has repeatedly said that he's a "good person" and "he'd do anything" if someone needed him to. Once he said he'd 'lay down his life for a stranger'. Maybe it's mean of me, but the last time he said something along those lines I said "yeah, you say you'd do that, but you won't commit to someone you say you love. Interesting."
I hope your H is doing what he said he would (ie "proving it") and I hope that in this process, you'll be able to get some of what you want. Right now, it sounds like the perfect storm may be brewing. I don't have advice, just observing that it sounds like you are on the cusp of being a WAS yourself.
My H has repeatedly said that he's a "good person" and "he'd do anything" if someone needed him to. Once he said he'd 'lay down his life for a stranger'. Maybe it's mean of me, but the last time he said something along those lines I said "yeah, you say you'd do that, but you won't commit to someone you say you love. Interesting."
Not mean. Honest. I think being lovingly honest is the only path that allows us to feel okay and not have yet another mess to clean up in the end. I think sometimes it's wise to postpone things as I did about the OW when we first went to MC. It wasn't a deal breaker for me, and my goal at the time was to work on the issues in my M that had made OW possible. However, where I went wrong was, when we reached the point where we started having the discussion about OW, I wasn't completely honest about my feelings about her because I was afraid. I've come a long way since then, and it would have been better to have dealt with it honestly instead of having to clean up that mess now.
So I say good for you for saying that to your H. It's true, and it's not snarky. I think sometimes our spouses need us to shine that spotlight of truth on things. Just the truth, not the truth AND you're a big giant poopy-head because of it.
I hope your H is doing what he said he would (ie "proving it") and I hope that in this process, you'll be able to get some of what you want. Right now, it sounds like the perfect storm may be brewing. I don't have advice, just observing that it sounds like you are on the cusp of being a WAS yourself.
So far, so good. He's either gotten better at lying, or he's actually doing what he promised. It was BFUG's (my new nickname for her...Big Fugly) birthday yesterday, no emails, no calls, nothing but spending time with me and kissing my butt. I just don't know if he's capable of looking like the "bad guy" to people outside of our M...he always tried to make me that person and I think I believed him for a long time. In IC after the bomb, I figured out that was bull, and that he was playing out his "good boy" family role in our M. I was playing the "bad child" role. I think that's why my strategy to save the M worked...I DB'd my heart out, and I made sure I did nothing he could use as an excuse to blame me...thus making him have to be the bad guy if he chose to leave.
But now he has to put on this bad guy hat because he thinks she never knew how he felt about her (um...boys are just clueless, we girls always know) and now he's just going to blow her off and end a friendship. Poor, victimized BFUG, and he will be the cause of someone else's pain. My pain is acceptable, but others' pain is not. And really, I mean every other person. I didn't know that's what he thought being married meant, that I had to buy into his control drama and be the martyr he loves to be as well.
Yes, I am on the cusp of being a WAS, but a very different type of WAS. I just believe that you put your S first and try to respect what they ask for. I also believe there's only room for 2 in the R, and I'm not willing to share. I honestly don't think he has feelings for her anymore, but that's not the point. The point is we don't put ourselves in positions that are uncomfortable to our S or set up the potential for it to happen again.
SD
Hey SD-
Yes, I am on the cusp of being a WAS, but a very different type of WAS. I just believe that you put your S first and try to respect what they ask for. I also believe there's only room for 2 in the R, and I'm not willing to share. I honestly don't think he has feelings for her anymore, but that's not the point. The point is we don't put ourselves in positions that are uncomfortable to our S or set up the potential for it to happen again.
Totally agree with you there.
I think what I was picking up on, though, was more that he isn't "passionate" (just "safe") and you are questioning the wisdom in being in the marriage. (As far as fulfillment goes.)
Hence, the perfect storm.
hmmm....I'll rephrase a little. I mean, it's possible to be a WAS because the other spouse is continuing the contact with the OP. (A la "Tough Love".)
But in your case, it's not just that he continued contact, but *also* that you are wanting a more passionate, exciting life. That's what has me raising my eyebrows. I worry that resentment will be creeping in, regardless of whether or not he continues contact, because the REAL deal is that you need a more intimate/passionate connection.
Like I said before, just an observation. And I am just now hopping into your thread (ie, I haven't read your whole story), so I acknowledge I could be all wrong.
PS...I have an interesting pdf you may want to read that may apply in parts to H. FIB
I'm interested. You can find my name @ the same place you're @.
Yes, trust is what's really lost, and I don't know that you can ever get it back completely. My uncle cheated on my aunt nearly 30-years ago (moved out, in love, etc.), and he STILL maintains transparency. When I was initially going through all of this, my aunt told me that there are still times she gets the kick in the stomach and triggers that bring it all back to her. They have a really tight marriage now, but I wonder if it's worth it to her, beyond her Christian beliefs about marriage, to spend her life revisiting that pain.
The jury is still out for me. It really doesn't help to have the MLC stuff swirling all around me...I feel truly insane some times.
SD
I worry that resentment will be creeping in, regardless of whether or not he continues contact, because the REAL deal is that you need a more intimate/passionate connection.
Like I said before, just an observation. And I am just now hopping into your thread (ie, I haven't read your whole story), so I acknowledge I could be all wrong.
I don't think you are, really, and I'm thankful you put it out there as clearly as you did. I guess I've been on the "right" side of this issue for so long that it's easy to slip into resentment instead of trying to make things better.
It's also true that *I* really don't *want* to try anymore. Everything fell on my shoulders when H started this, and it's still up to me to tend to the M. I feel like I'm doing a dang good job taking care of my own crazy MLC stuff (after supporting HIS and him making me to blame for everything), and I am just exhausted.
Everything in me just wants to scream "Do Over!" like little kids playing kickball, which is the MLC stuff talking...I know this. But on top of having to manage that, I have to battle H's contact with the whore and find some way to overcome my distrust so I can have a closer connection?
I just don't have the strength or desire. I want H to step up and carry the load for a while. I'm tired, and I have done my part. I have been truthful, I have asked for what I want and need, and H just does whatever he wants and reaffirms my belief that I shouldn't trust him.
I have to take care of myself first now.
SD
Yeah...what do you do when you order 'tonight's special': the almond crusted mahi mahi...only to be told by the waiter that they're all out and you have to settle for the baked tilapia.
What is a marriage?
Why are we married?
Where does fear or codependency come in?
LL tank being filled or dipped into?
These are a set of difficult questions we must ask ourselves and FIND the answers lest we either languish forever in an unfulfilling relationship or miss the opportunity to maneuver our old one into something better.
Personally, this forum gives everyone the correct idea in the beginning to try and change and save the M. However, there is this pervasive attempt to peruade everyone that the longer you stay, a miraculous change will occur and they come back loving us anew.
(COUGH)
Yes, trust is what's really lost, and I don't know that you can ever get it back completely.
You might as well leave the keystone out of that brick arch. Ya know...I guess I can sorta understand the drunken one night stand, but, CHOOSING to continue to see someone whilst married is a different thing.
I agree, above, SD..that is sounds like H is going through motions right now. WHAT...does he say and do INTIMATELY to tell you that this is done...that it's over....that he wants a new start with you? Actions DO speak louder than words.
I still loved my wife when I filed for divorce against her. I just made a decision that I could not live with distrust, infidelity and lying. The pain of leaving..losing my house and 50% of the time with my kids...seemed less than the heart pain of never knowing where my W was or who she was with. It was too emotionally exhausting (not that D has been easier).
SD...no one can tell you what to do..or predict what will happen to your H.
What do YOU want???? If what they say is true..that...WE are in charge of our OWN happiness....what would make you happy?
Again, my only advice is, as long as there is no active infidelity going on and things are workable, there is no rush to make a decision...but..this is going on now almost 3 years, right?
FIB
My wife dropped the bomb on me in May of 09. Not sure if there is an affair or not at this point. I want to believe that 98% there wasn't one. There was at least an emotional affair. Wife said ILYBNILWU. Says I have controlled her our whole marriage. I am willing to do everything I can to save the marriage. I too have tried the all or nothings without success. The one thing I could not tollerate is if I new 100% that she was with another man and not remorseful about what she has done. When the day is done, it is about respect for you, respect for your vows, respect for family(not sure if you have kids). My wife has detached and I am trying to do that so I quite writing letters and trying to reason with her about destroying our family, me, marriage, etc.. I guess what I am trying to say is if he cheated and he is not remorseful, you must go. As a guy, he has an ugly soul if he would do that to you. I just don't understand how one person can hurt another person and have it not bother them. Good luck with the boundary setting. I know I haven't helped much. But you are a good person and you deserve respect.
I think I really got through to H this time. He has respected my boundary...one call from her while he was doing a job directly related to her oversight, and that's all.
I don't think things have been this good between us since...well, maybe never. We have both learned a whole lot. H has begun to ask for what he wants and needs, which is a HUGE positive change. He used to hold it in, get angry that I wasn't a mind reader, and then when the bomb was dropped I had this giant list of transgressions. So this is a good thing.
Energetically things have shifted between us. H has some sort of surprise cooked up for our anniversary this week that he's enjoying as much as a little boy at Christmas, and he's planned a mystery trip for my birthday. I have no idea where we're going, just the dates I have to be available. My H loves to do things like this, and it had been gone for a while.
I've done better at taking charge of my happiness...it's easy to forget that's my own responsibility. Whether H talks to the ho or not doesn't impact my happiness (it shouldn't). Instead, that's just a business matter in my mind...like sorry, you've broken the terms of the contract. I just can't fall into the thinking that H is the one who is in charge of making me happy.
It's going to be okay.
SD
Dramatic change for you. The advice is simple: go forward with your eyes open. FIB
Eyes wide open. I lost my innocence in this process. Not sure that's a bad thing....
It isn't SD. Morals, people, community ethics...have all changed. Not sure anyone can be trusted anymore in a sense. All we can do is....keep our eyes open and feet on the ground.
Stay strong. Don't settle for anything less than what a marriage should be. Hugs.
FIB
Well SD... is it still going to be OK?
Jen! How are you doing? I haven't seen you (or Rob) around these parts in a long time!
Yes...I do think it's going to be okay. There has been no contact at all, H is focused on me and our R, and I feel significantly different. H has actually been in a frenzy for the past month planning secret gifts and events for our 10-year anniversary (which was lovely!) and my birthday. He's planned a mystery trip for us to go on next week.
We've been doing a lot of talking lately...about the past, about what we want, where we want to go next. H is actually speaking up about things he'd like, being direct and open in a way I've never seen before. Maybe he needed to see me completely lose it and yell at him on our 5-block walk home from the restaurant we were at? The calm, direct approach wasn't working, and this was definitely something different.
I feel better about our future than I have in a very long while. Still watching though...although sometimes I forget to check for days on end and then think, Oh yeah, I need to look that up. I think that's a good thing, yes?
And all of this has just served to remind me that I need to take care of myself, always. So I've stepped up those things and found ways to spend time with H so we are having fun together. So far, so good.
Wow, SD - this sounds awesome!
Our 15th anniv. is Sept. 4th. I am getting him a light card and a non-romantic but useful present (a veggie tray for the grill). Boy do I wish there was a date or a trip being planned in secret.
Enjoy the heck out of it!
OK SD...sounds like you have things under control. Blessings. You are still one of the few. The other is FaithfulH. I admire those that have been able to hold on and reach 'the promised land'.
I"m here.
FIB, over and out.
Hi SD! Stopped in at the DB boards today and I am seeing updates from so many of my old friends - what a welcome sight! (For the most part, I have been keeping up with folks over in The Alternate Universe...)
Sorry to see that you went through a rough spot there - but equally glad to see that you worked it out and are back on track. Good deal! Nobody ever promised the road ahead would be without bumps - but I know you are a Master Bump Navigator and I have 100% confidence that you'll come out terrific in the end.
Hmmm, I guess fair is fair and I should post an update of my own. Sheesh, now where did I leave that old thread of mine?
Hey SD,
Wow it has been a long time...I have missed u! Yaaa...me to hun, I cant trust my H anymore either..I don't think that I have sense the big bomb 3 yrs ago. I hate to see u hurting, u are such an awesome lady...I am not in a good place right now to give any advice, but please know that u are in my prayers and I lov ya!
Rob ... SD.... Liz .... anyone ... I have a new thread and could really use some advice. Life not so great
I want to bang my head against the wall.
All's well with me and H. We communicate better than we ever have, and life is good. Mostly I need to just vent this and then do the work to let it go.
My H is a rescuer. He has a history of being the White Knight, the caretaker, the "good" guy. It was something that caused a lot of trouble in our R and fed into my "bad one" dynamic. (In my family, I was the difficult child as opposed to my pleaser brother.) Since I have dropped my role and stopped playing that part, H's rescue role in M has gone away.
Not so outside of our M, especially with his dad.
My FIL is a nice guy, but he's the Original Victim. He's like Droopy Dog, a perpetual Poor Me. It's the way he controls his kids and wife, and it's the reason my MIL probably divorced him. He doesn't play it with me because he knows I won't buy it...I call him on his B.S. lovingly, so it's not a problem in our R. But my H....
Last night my BIL and his wife, my H and I, and FIL and his wife all got together to celebrate Christmas since we'll all be different places on the actual day. One thing my FIL likes to do is try to bring up politics, but the majority of us have drawn a boundary there. Basically, H is on an extreme end of politics and the rest of us are on the other side. FIL still baits us, especially my H, because H wants to debate and make FIL see it a different way. FIL is convinced he can get H to see it his way. It ALWAYS ends badly, to the point where all the wives have stated that if they start talking politics, we will walk out on them wherever we are and go order an expensive bottle of wine or two on their dime.
Mostly this has worked, but then FIL lobs some stupid comment to bait my H last night right before we're getting ready to leave. H almost engages, but catches my eye and Dad's wife's eye. He then tells FIL that there's no use in discussing politics, as FIL will never change his mind, and H will never change FIL's mind. H asks if they can just agree to disagree. It seems like that goes over well, we all leave, and I think it's over with.
H checks his voicemail this morning, and FIL has left a panicked message saying, "I'm so sick, I need to talk to you," on and on. H thinks FIL is actually ill, and calls back. Is he sick? NO. He says he feels awful because H is like some extremist with a closed mind who won't even listen to outside opinions. Now, this is SO not my H, he just doesn't want to listen to the propaganda my FIL passes on and knows there's no point in having these conversations with his dad. I've been with my H nearly 14 years, and every conversation they have about politics leaves them both upset. IT'S STUPID.
But FIL plays the poor me/victim card and manipulates my H into agreeing to meet sometime soon so FIL can show him the "reams and reams of data" he's collected to prove H's opinion is wrong. And it just pisses me off.
Now, I realize this is not my choice to make. I get it. I'm still furious though, because my FIL has once more gotten his way by playing the victim. H will have this conversation, be upset by the craziness that comes out of FIL's mouth. He'll want to recount the conversation to me and soothe him after it's all done, and it will just put me back into this frustrating space. I have no control over it, and so it makes me nuts.
So H tells me this today, and I told him everything I've told you here, and said I recognize it's his choice, but that if he's insisting on moving forward, please respect that I don't want to hear anything about it when it's over. I told him he was playing into his father's manipulation, that FIL would never let it go unless H changed his views, and that there was no point in it all. But yes, it's his choice, but my boundary is that he leaves me out of all of it.
I guess maybe that sounds harsh or mean, but I really can't continue to put myself in a situation where I have no say or control. H agreed, but didn't know why it made me so upset.
H has had to take care of his dad all of his life, which explains why H is the way he is. At least we've got it solved between us.
Thanks for listening to my rant. I just had to get it out.
SD
Rant away, SD! What fun would life be without a little drama to spice things up from time to time? While this is certainly aggravating while you are in the moment - step back from it for a sec. Then, ask yourself:
If this is the worst thing you have be worked up about - then, hey, life is terrific indeed, isn't it? While I have your attention, there's a 50/50 chance we'll be doing a family vacation in LA & San Diego over spring break. If that does work out, and you'd like to get together - find me in the Alternate Universe and we can discuss.
If this is the worst thing you have be worked up about - then, hey, life is terrific indeed, isn't it? grin
Agreed. I was thinking the same thing before reading Rob's post. I wish....WISH....that this had been the problem in my marriage before finding myself in the middle of a divorce.
I wish.
Merry Christmas SD and Happy New Year!
FIB
If this is the worst thing you have be worked up about - then, hey, life is terrific indeed, isn't it? I totally agree, and it was more that it was aggravating than something "serious," if you know what I mean. As long as H respects my boundary around this and doesn't try to pull me into the mix, then he's more than free to keep pounding his head against that wall. It's when he wants to suck ME into the whole deal and then give me no freedom to say/do what is authentic to me that I have a problem. Anyway, H agreed to keep me out of the whole clusterf*ck.
It's interesting, actually. H is finally seeing his parents for who they are rather than as the fairy tale/perfect he'd always viewed them as. I think we call that maturity? His parents' wishes were Right, and we (I) had no freedom to have my own opinion about anything...really, no one did (like his sister, and she drives him bonkers). Finally he's seeing his dad as this Poor Me guy who is pretty controlling. He picks at his wife constantly with that hangdog look...yelled at her at my BIL's wedding because she came inside with me (and the whole Bride's side of the family) because we were freezing instead of staying outside with him as the bride and groom were meandering along from the beach, still getting pictures taken. She wouldn't let me say anything because, as she put it, "He'll just give me more sh!t later."
Bottom line? We're ALL of us crazy. I just choose not to own or get sucked into others' crazy very often anymore.
Rob~I'd love to get together if you make it out here. I'll give you suggestions of where to go/what to see while you're here too if you want. H has a whole document with links he put together for people who visit which I'd be happy to share with you.
SD
Excellent!
Can you still find me at that other web site where
Friends
And
Colleagues
Enjoy
Being
Online &
Occasionally
Korresponding?
Yep, sure can. As my students say, I've got lotsa smarticles!
Then say hello there too...FIB
What a difference four years makes. Four years ago I cooked H a special dinner for our 7th anniversary which was awkward at best, after which he called OW. We were sleeping in different bedrooms, and it was several weeks away from when we finally reconciled. I'd reached a point where I knew I'd be okay, and I was starting to drift away myself as I saw the options available to me if we eventually divorced.
Fast forward 4 years. We already went out for brunch, and H has dinner reservations for us somewhere that's a surprise. He bought a bottle of our favorite wine that was bottled the year we got married, and we're bringing that with us to the restaurant. Our M is really solid--we communicate well and accept each others' faults much better. It's not perfect, but what M is? I don't think perfect exists, nor should it.
Although my sitch worked out, I know that I would have been just as happy and content at this point if it hadn't. The real gift of DBing and the whole sitch was finding my own happiness and strength. I'm glad H is here with me, but I know I'll be fine no matter what.
If you're reading this, have hope. No one dies because a relationship ends, it just feels that way. See yourself past your current situation strong, happy, and alive. You have been awakened from a deep, mindless slumber. The question is, will you take this opportunity to stay alive and awake, or will you seek to stay asleep in the dream? As for me, I chose to live, and so I look back at 2006 as one of the most important years of my life.
SD
SD,
A joy to read.
Thanks for telling me where to find you.
So great to read that someone made it. Godspeed. FIB
SD-
Thanks for helping on Newcomers. Your advice is invaluable!