The Longest Journey, 2 - DivorceBusting.com

Thread locked up right as I updated.

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SD Girl,

Good work sitting down With H and telling him what bothered you... That is where all the trouble starts when people DON'T do that.
Allot of problems are not what people say but what they don't say.
Sometimes one word could mean so many different things. During one of our Dialogues I used the word "Were" in describing how I could depend on wife... I said �...bla bla and what attracted you to me was that you were stable and I could depend on you."
Though there must have been 100 words in the letter the one that stuck out in wife�s mind was the word "were" she asked "does that mean that you can't anymore?" This was not what I meant. And I then explained it to her.
If she had not brought it up. She would have totally misunderstood my message.
It�s all about Communication......

DrLOve

Time for some serious cuttin' and pastin':

Originally Posted By: SD

Originally Posted By: Rob1231

The trip sounds awesome. Hearing you talk about the hike to the lake, I had to go look up my 6-year-old vacation photos online. Was that wonderful little lake called Dream Lake or Emerald Lake, by any chance?

We *did* do that hike--the one that starts at Bear Lake and proceeds on to three other lakes--but that's not the one I was talking about. At least with that one there are the lakes to stop and rest at and some flat parts. No, the one I'm talking about is Gem Lake. It's outside of the park on the other side of Estes. It's truly an amazing hike, but it kicked my boo-tay! LOL

Excellent! You have brought back some terrific memories for me - thanks!

Originally Posted By: SD

Just wondering...do you ever snoop anymore? Anyone else? I also wonder what someone might find and assume about me if they snooped...I'm trying to assume good will. $\:\)$

Didn't think it was fair to dodge The Tough Question just because of a Convenient Thread Locking!

OK, I will admit, every very great once and a while, and I mean maybe every 2 or 3 months at this point, the temptation to peek at W's cell phone gets me, or she'll leave her email open and I'll take a quick glance through the sender/subject lines. I've never found anything suspicious, and I always feel guilty afterwards - more like I let myself down than anything else, really. But I'm only human - shake it off and get back on The High Road To PMA And Personal Growth, right?

Quick one - I agree with Rob. I have a quick snoop every few months. I haven't ever found anything to be suspicious of, and to be honest I remind myself that snooping is only seeing a small bit of the story. If I snoop, I'm not in possesion of the full facts and I don't know what my H was thinking/feeling at the time. I try to take everyone at face value right now.

And - before I go out on the razz, the low points in your holipops sound just like the kind of thing me and my H went through for a bit ... mis-understandings needing clearing up, me focussing on signs that he was reverting back to the alien, a few low days. it's all normal. Don't panic! $\:\)$

Ok not to be the stick in the mud but I have not "snooped" in over a year.
No I am not sticking my head in the sand.... It is just that like JJ said "snooping is only seeing a small bit of the story" and rob �and I always feel guilty afterwards�
Don't get me wrong DO NOT Beat yourself for doing it. IT'S OK. just leave the past behind and move forward.
At this very fragile turning point in my marriage I do not want any Mis-understandings to cause me to start looking at the negatives again instead of concentrating on the positives. When I am ready I will ask my W how she feels about me looking at the phone log. Hopefully we will be at a point that TRUST has been regained. If I were to look now and found 1 call. It may have been my W telling the A.H.O.M to get lost for the last time. But As soon as I saw that number I know the doubts would return and I would loose all of the confidence in working through this. I mean hey if she is still calling him, Me looking will not make it undone. It will not make her stop. I can look anytime so why now when things seem to be going in the right direction. And besides what if my wife was just starting to trust ME. What if this was the turning point for her and she found out I was checking up on her? I would need to start all over building trust in me.
Looking is my get out of "jail" card, I can use it anytime, but once I do it's gone...

Ok sorry for the soap box speech you can now return to your regular broadcast........

Dr LOve

Wow. I was just going to say that maybe snooping is something that you need to do every once in a while for reassurance, but then I read this:

Quote:

At this very fragile turning point in my marriage I do not want any Mis-understandings to cause me to start looking at the negatives again instead of concentrating on the positives. When I am ready I will ask my W how she feels about me looking at the phone log. Hopefully we will be at a point that TRUST has been regained. If I were to look now and found 1 call. It may have been my W telling the A.H.O.M to get lost for the last time. But As soon as I saw that number I know the doubts would return and I would loose all of the confidence in working through this. I mean hey if she is still calling him, Me looking will not make it undone. It will not make her stop. I can look anytime so why now when things seem to be going in the right direction. And besides what if my wife was just starting to trust ME. What if this was the turning point for her and she found out I was checking up on her? I would need to start all over building trust in me.

He's right. I'm wrong.

I read something about radical honesty once--I think it was in "Surviving the Affair"--and I wonder if that's something you and your H might apply in your situation. The basic idea is that he is 100% open and honest--shows you his cell history, email, etc., whenever you ask, and you have all the passwords in case you want to check on your own. The idea is that once you are confident in his honesty, you don't need to check those things anymore. It sounds like sanctioned snooping, doesn't it?

I don't know if anyone has used this and written about it here, but it's another idea that may work for some couples.

Originally Posted By: rob1231

OK, I will admit, every very great once and a while, and I mean maybe every 2 or 3 months at this point, the temptation to peek at W's cell phone gets me, or she'll leave her email open and I'll take a quick glance through the sender/subject lines.

Originally Posted By: Jen-Jam

]
I have a quick snoop every few months.

Originally Posted By: amd

It sounds like sanctioned snooping, doesn't it? I don't know if anyone has used this and written about it here, but it's another idea that may work for some couples.

uh...
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Life after....................
FIB

Originally Posted By: faithisbelieving

uh...
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Life after....................
FIB

Yes, FIB. Life after is not the fairy tale, ride into the sunset I (we?) all thought it would be if we could just get to this point. We spend so much time and energy DBing and in crisis mode that, when the crisis is over, we're left dealing with our own feelings about what's happened. The trust that was just smashed.

I know that snooping isn't productive, and in the end, it not only hurts me, it hurts our intimacy. I know this, yet I do it. I do it knowing full well that it doesn't change or prevent anything.

Why?

One of the big things that happens as a result of these bombs is that our peace and trust are shattered. I think most of us knew the M wasn't that great...I mean, I know I thought about leaving more than once. I also had my own issues to work on that probably wouldn't have been worked on unless a bomb like this happened. And I AM grateful for that aspect of it.

But...well, I didn't bomb, I didn't leave, I wasn't writing love letters to LW and I stayed in the game even though I was pretty miserable myself.

Before this happened, I would have told everyone (and I probably told a lot of people) that my H wasn't the type to even THINK about cheating. But he did...in every sense but following through. He really felt something for this woman, and for me that feels worse than a physical attraction or even sex.

I don't have that blind faith in H anymore. I believe it could happen again. I'm doing my best, but, after all, I *am* human, right?

You guys have "known" me for a long time now (two-plus years!), so you know my actions, thoughts, feelings as accurately as anyone is able to report. I just keep wondering how to really get over this, and I come up empty.

Do I think LW is a threat anymore? Not really...there's still that 1% worry since she's practically the next Buddha (sarcasm there)...but it's more that feeling of betrayal that just clings to me.

Mostly I wonder, If I am not a very good girl and act the way my H thinks I should act, will it happen again? I'm not talking about bad behavior here, folks, I'm talking about who I am. I am direct, I tend toward shyness with people I don't know, I truly do love quiet time by myself to read or make art or just veg, with the right people I can tell some of the dirtiest jokes you've ever heard, I'm not overly ambitious or money-chasing...I am a teacher because I love to do it and really have no intention of pushing past there, I am smart, I am opinionated, I am kind...I am a real human being who, through DBing, found MYSELF and love for MYSELF. I worry that I have to soften some of those aspects of who I am to fit into someone else's mold or idea of what's acceptable. And I just can't do it.

So, I worry that it'll happen again, and I never all that comfortable in the R. Some days and weeks are wonderful, and others are just...disconnected.

Not sure how to go about feeling differently about all this...more than anything, I'd like to trust my H again. As good as he is, as hard as he's working, I just don't.

SD

Powerful post.

Wish I had some advice but I do not.

Trust is more important than love is in a relationship. That is just a fact. And once violated, trust is difficult to get back and it always takes time to find.

A lot of time.

You are doing all you can. Be proud and trust your feelings.

Use your feelings to guide your future. If anything, what we have been through has put us in touch with our inner selves - and our own demons.

Lost trust is one of those demons.

Huggs.

SD...I agree with Jeff. In many ways, I have come to learn that trust is more important than 'love' as we mature in our M's. Once that foundation is cracked, I don't think anyone will ever truly feel safe anymore.

Certainly, there are many people who can work this out and use it to grow...but....we are all human with tender parts. I think, like losing a loved one, you never really forget...you just learn how to live with the loss.

I am a bit jaded right now...as you know....but, being a 'scientist', I tend to look at numbers and try to come up with answers. I'm sure Jeff understands this being an engineer. It is not easy now, for me, to avoid all those horrible cliche's about cheaters. I'm trying to move on, but then again, my W didn't make a try for it as your H has. This is something you must look at from your heart. There are basic questions that one should always ask oneself. As a doc, I now realize that I will always need to be in touch with my next R...a surveillance checkup. PLEASE...don't infer that I am saying do something against that which you've fought hard to save, but, you should always be happy. I think when the scale begins to slip from that...to....insecurity...well...perhaps at that time, re-evaluation is necessary.

Looks like you just came off of a great trip. Process it and enjoy those moments. A New Earth says that true happiness comes from 'being in life at the moment'.

Be in the moment.

Hugs. FIB

Both of you are dead on about trust. When I was about 11 or 12 (we're talking 26ish years ago :o) my uncle cheated on my aunt. They actually separated for months while my uncle was having his fling.

They're happily married now, but when I was going through all of this with H, my aunt said that she still thinks about it and that my uncle will call even if he's going to be 5-minutes late. They have complete transparency because of that event...26-odd years ago. My uncle STILL gets choked up when he thinks of what he did then. They've worked hard and really enjoy each other now...but it's still there.

This changed how I look at my H, and I can't just unchange. I guess if, every time I snooped I found nothing at all and he was honoring what I'd asked for (which is no non-work contact at all), it might be a little different. Maybe not. Or if he'd admitted he stepped outside the bounds of our M...but then he doesn't know I know about the letters or about a whole lot of other stuff I know because I really am a good snooper.

This:

Originally Posted By: faithisbelieving

Looks like you just came off of a great trip. Process it and enjoy those moments. A New Earth says that true happiness comes from 'being in life at the moment'.

Be in the moment.

works most of the time. I'm busy with friends and (now) with preparing for the new school year. I have a full life. I don't really sit and dwell on all of this, but it's there nonetheless. It comes to the surface when I find something while I'm snooping or when I feel guilty because my H is working overtime to please me with any number of acts of service and I just feel wary or disconnected, or when I'm really not all that interested in sex because I'm NOT connected.

Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't confess all that I know and see what happens. But then I worry that all my ways of checking up on him will be closed to me...he is not good at hiding things, but he's gotten better at it. I know for sure he's deleted phone calls to her in the past after I confessed I'd listened to his voicemail (where she was laughing at and making fun of me). That ticked him off...and about a month after I confessed that, suddenly calls that I'd seen on his incoming or outgoing already were deleted.

I keep telling myself this is a decision, not a feeling. I either need to be all in or all out, not hovering here on this imaginary line. It's not bad, it's just not...not sure what the right word is here.

Thanks for checking in on me. I'm really okay, I just want more than this.

SD

hmmmmmmmmm...... thinking here. Snooping yes is bad, I have done it myself in the past, but not for months, and I feel better for it. One of my goals is to never snoop again. Anyway ...

So he's still contacting LW as a friend, despite you asking him not to. The only way you know this is through snooping. I suggest not confronting him on this one, and making a commitment to give up the snooping. But ... how to get past this?

How about cheeleading? Tell him you're happy, that you appreciate his efforts and that you're really glad he listened to you and stopped non-work contact with LW, that you felt hurt by his contact with her, and now he's not doing it, even though it was probably something he didn't really want to stop doing, you're glad that he appreciates and respects you so much to do that for you.

What do you think? You can't control what he does, you can only put it out there and let him make his own decision.

Honest question....does anyone EVER truly feel 100% safe again? If so, then no snooping is necessary, If not.....

FIB

Quote:

she was laughing at and making fun of me

Now I'm just pissed. That must have been very painful.

Quote:

You can't control what he does, you can only put it out there and let him make his own decision.

Totally true. I guess what you need to ask yourself is "What is my goal?" If it's to encourage him to keep his word, maybe cheerleading is the answer. You know what they say about flies and honey.

Even so, it bothers me that he is trying to slip this by you. What is the problem with no contact? Why does he need to do this?

I can't remember--are you guys seeing a MC?

Originally Posted By: Jen_Jam

How about cheeleading? Tell him you're happy, that you appreciate his efforts and that you're really glad he listened to you and stopped non-work contact with LW, that you felt hurt by his contact with her, and now he's not doing it, even though it was probably something he didn't really want to stop doing, you're glad that he appreciates and respects you so much to do that for you.

Jen, WOW this is great. As you know the fool I am I do not snoop BUT... If I knew I could handle what ever I found. AND I knew I would not get caught THIS IS GREAT.......what a save....

Sd this is your chance to get a point across. And To make HIM feel a little guilt............

Take care
Dr LOve

SD-

Thanks for helping sad but strong. I owe you. Click 'notify'.

You did a great job!

sg

SD, how are you doing?

Hey SD, How's things?

Yeah..where'd ya go? FIB

I am here, and I will update when I can make sense of the jumble in my head. Nothing's bad, I just wonder a lot. Caught H not being truthful again, and contacting LW in a non-work manner. Do I think it's like it was? No...but the wondering is all about why he won't respect that boundary. Why does he continue to interact socially with her?

I'll update soon...I promise...but I've found I enjoy my life far more with my friends and GAL activities than I do with H. I've asked so little...and he doesn't deliver on the no contact thing, only lies by omission and hiding it.

Not sure what to say or where to go from here, you know?

SD

oh my .... sorry to hear this, SD. Good to know otherwise you're OK. Post as and when you're ready, we will be here.

Wanted to add some food for thought ... this is from the DR book, right at the end of the chapter on infidelity:

"Once a person is obsessed or addicted to a particular behaviour, s/he won't make the decision to change until they have suffered some losses. They need to realise their behaviour is causing serious problems for them."

I am NOT suggesting you file for a D, only you can make that decision.

I agree this is a really tricky one ... anyhoo, will leave you in peace for now, post when you feel ready.

Take care ((((((((SD))))))))

Piecing is not easy....so I hear.

My IC tells me that the classic line is true, "people don't change." At least not with intense work.

ford tells me over and over that a tiger doesn't change it's stripes.

Be aware of your environment.

FIB

FIB, I just want to jump onto this thread really quick. I'm new to piecing, but not DBing. As far as "people dont change" I totally disagree. Look how many changes all of us DBers have gone through. I think it is more approperate to say people dont change unless they are forced to. Our WAS changed from the loving partners we had to angry people trying to run from us. This change occured as a result of unhealthy relationship cycles that kept building and growing between both partners. We have the power in us to break these cycles and help to bring about positive changes in us and our WAS. Just my 0.02 worth.

Indeed BH..but...beware....the changes WE MAKE....can insidiously slip away...without due care. Even WE are susceptible to 'not changing' in the long run. FIB

(((SD)))

Urgh, SD. I'll tell you, I just want to track down your H and b!tchslap him right now!

If I found out that my W was still in contact with OM (highly unlikely given how it ended between them, but still...) I would be furious!

OK, gonna try to be more constructive now...

Let me ask a question: Setting aside for the moment the impact on you and upon your R, WHY do you think Dimwit is still contacting LW? What "need" does it fulfill? He must be getting some sort of reinforcement from the behavior, something that keeps him coming back for more in spite of the risk.

Imagine, if you can, that you DID lay everything on the table with H. And that he could respond in a way that was truthful, and not completely tainted by embarrassment and anger at having been found out. What would "his side of the story" be?

I hate that you are so right, Rob. I really just want to stay angry and fling sharp objects at H, and here you are with your really good and on target question.

I will think on that and get back to you in a day or two. I returned to work today (you might remember I'm a teacher), and my head is pounding, so not in a good place for brain usage.

Can I just say, though, that I'm tired of being the adult? The one figuring stuff out instead of the other way around? Urrrgh.

Dang that Rob.... $\:D$

SD (and Rob)...I admire both of you...but dang....I am stuck with my Emperor's New Clothes view. How do you live without trust?

I can definitely see it with someone who made a single mistake, perhaps in an alcholic stupor, and wanted desperately to make things work.

But what about those that fall under the category of recidivist?
FIB

Hi FIB, I do trust my wife. In the rational, loving, "higher plane" parts of my brain and my heart, I don't think she is sneaking around and finding another OM, or anything else like that.

When I backslide and do the very occasional snooping, it doesn't help me (even though I find no incriminating evidence). I see it as myself failing, and then I dust myself off and try to do better next time. Rebuilding trust isn't easy, it's hard. It isn't all or nothing, it's baby steps and keeping your eye on the far-off prize.

If I understand your question, you are painting things very black and white here. Either my spouse was at one end of the spectrum (screwed up one single time while drunk out of her mind, who desperately wants to save our marriage) or at the other (a serial adulterer, who cares nothing about our relationship).

The truth is much more "shades of gray" than that. Her A wasn't the result a single night of drunkenness, it was part of a long and painful MLC. The relationship wasn't rosy before she started to walk away, it was rocky. The fault for that wasn't all hers, it was shared by me as well. We both have a lot of work to do to piece our marriage back together.

Noted and understood. FIB

Originally Posted By: Rob1231

Urgh, SD. I'll tell you, I just want to track down your H and b!tchslap him right now!

If I found out that my W was still in contact with OM (highly unlikely given how it ended between them, but still...) I would be furious!

This is the part that (at first) I most liked. It does feel good to be indignant and wounded and the victim...for a while. Yes, he is a doofus. Yes, he is clueless. Yes, he is crossing that boundary, and dammit, I AM right. Just call me Queen Right.

Originally Posted By: Rob1231

OK, gonna try to be more constructive now...

Let me ask a question: Setting aside for the moment the impact on you and upon your R, WHY do you think Dimwit is still contacting LW? What "need" does it fulfill? He must be getting some sort of reinforcement from the behavior, something that keeps him coming back for more in spite of the risk.

Imagine, if you can, that you DID lay everything on the table with H. And that he could respond in a way that was truthful, and not completely tainted by embarrassment and anger at having been found out. What would "his side of the story" be?

It is to your credit and our long standing friendship on these boards (and, maybe, to my actually learning something from all of this crap we've gone through) that I didn't just say F-you and throw a tantrum about how wrong and mean and wrong and, um, wrong you were to ask that. But as soon as I read what you wrote I knew you hit it right on the DB head. Dang it.

I know my H...I know his energy...and he is so not the same person he was prior to DBing. He's really a good guy, and it's that good guy stuff that probably worked a hella lot in my favor when it all hit the fan. I don't feel the same distance from him that I did before, so I know there's nothing really there. Probably friendship, probably a bit of guilt because the friendship scaled way back with no explanation from H (and he truly worries about what others might think and doesn't have the huevos to explain to her) and he doesn't want her to feel bad.

BUT...to my goodfriendRobwhoIsortawantedtokickinthemancookiesjustalittlebit's question....

What might be there? Honestly, probably being upbeat, expressing my sexuality via the way I dress and act. I have been somewhat avoiding sex for a whole host of reasons...not a drought, but it's definitely a slow spot just now because I haven't put on my big girl panties and discussed the whole child issue with H (well, until a couple of weeks ago, and we're still in negotiations), so I was unrightfully angry with him and the lack of progeny. That issue has affected my mood too, so I've been more withdrawn...along with the whole stupid whore with really roached hair issue.

So, I need to take responsibility for what I need to say, and I need to get back in touch with my sexuality. I find myself wondering where the SD who pranced around in her nighties went, and my only answer is my butt is a little bigger than it was when I couldn't keep food down and I am self-conscious...although H seems as into me as ever, especially when I'm dressed up. Which I will be more often, now that summer is over *sigh* and I can't just bum around in shorts and sweats every day.

GAL is really good, maybe too good in that tonight is the first night this week I will see my husband for longer than 60-minutes before we go to bed. I've made a lot of friends and am out doing things most nights, especially this summer. H is happy about this, especially my connections with new people. But when I mentioned our tech guy and joking around with him at school (he is funny and a really good guy that some other teachers are sort of snarky to), I noticed that he suddenly took an interest in going to a staff party he'd had no interest in prior.

I can only control me, right? I want guarantees...but in reality, no one can give that to you. My only guarantee is that I am strong enough to survive anything and be happy. Isn't that enough?

Still working on that....

SD

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

Originally Posted By: Rob1231

Urgh, SD. I'll tell you, I just want to track down your H and b!tchslap him right now!

If I found out that my W was still in contact with OM (highly unlikely given how it ended between them, but still...) I would be furious!

This is the part that (at first) I most liked. It does feel good to be indignant and wounded and the victim...for a while. Yes, he is a doofus. Yes, he is clueless. Yes, he is crossing that boundary, and dammit, I AM right. Just call me Queen Right.

Yeah, I liked that part best too! Sorry. $\:\)$

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

It is to your credit and our long standing friendship on these boards (and, maybe, to my actually learning something from all of this crap we've gone through) that I didn't just say F-you and throw a tantrum about how wrong and mean and wrong and, um, wrong you were to ask that. But as soon as I read what you wrote I knew you hit it right on the DB head. Dang it.

Well, let me say that it is to your credit and our long standing friendship, as well as my respect and firm belief in everything you've learned, that I was able to say that! Not everyone would be able to hear it, even if it was said.

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

BUT...to my goodfriendRobwhoIsortawantedtokickinthemancookiesjustalittlebit's question....

I'm afraid work is absolutely INSANE today and I can't put the time I would like into a reply right now. I'll catch up later. In the meantime, slinking off with my legs firmly crossed...

OK, SD, my day has settled down from crazy to just aggravating. Why won't someone just pay me big bucks to hang out here on the BB and give advice and ask aggravating questions? $\:\)$

From what you've said about H, the "he doesn't want to hurt LW's feelings" bit just rings true to me. So, let's see - what do I suppose is going on in H's head?

In H's head, LW never was guilty (because she didn't really get it about his infatuation) and so it's not "fair" that she should be punished. Maybe he even considers her a special friend who in some unknowing way helped him make it through the dark times of his MLC.

In H's head, SD never knew about the unsent letter. Maybe she suspected something about his feeling for LW, but, hey that all ended "without anything ever coming of it...." So, H just doesn't get why SD has such a burr up her butt about this.

In H's head, H himself never acted out any of his MLC-inspired fantasies about LW. So, heck, HE is not even "guilty." Maybe he even soothes himself with the idea that he had the good sense and courage never to actually go out and HAVE that affair. (You and I would have a different opinion on that issue, fer sure! But remember, we're talking about what somebody who was really messed up has to tell himself to get through the day....)

So, what to do? Well, I suspect it may mean either pushing on the issue and bringing it to a head, or just plain letting it go.

One thing that I did wonder, you mentioned how much of your GALing is being done solo, rather than as a couple. There's a balance to be maintained there - maybe it's time to focus a tad more on some couple activities? Rather than forcing H to forget all about skanky ol' LW, what if your strategy was to make him so busy and engaged doing fun things with his beautiful wife that he forgot all about her, all on his own?

Also, I certainly understand how you are feeling torn about H's hesitation regarding kids. I think I posted to you a while back, we males can be pretty thick-headed and chicken-sh!t when it comes to taking that plunge. It doesn't mean he'll never step up or that he won't make a terrific dad - but it could mean he needs a little shove to get out of that no-kids-no-cares-no-obligations comfort zone. Give him a good nudge!

Rob

P.S. Jen has decided she needs a nice long mental vacation from the boards here. (Check her post on the "After Reconciling" board.) She asked me in a message on f@c3b00k to tell you that she's thinking of you. (We both think you need to get yourself a fb account, BTW!)

P.P.S. Fear not, you will always be that utterly amazing woman prancing around in her nighties to me!

$\:D$

Hey SD... Hoping I haven't p1ssed you off (not sure my man cookies could handle the repercussions!) Thinking of you!

No worries, your man cookies are safe. I am just ridiculously busy with the start up of school, and I'm letting your ever-wise words marinate and sink in.

I tend to agree with you, and I think where H and I both need to work is on GAL together. We have always been crazy-independent people, and the things we enjoy doing together are more large scale like adventure and travel. We *haven't* been hiking lately though, and that's something we both want to get back to.

I think letting it go is what I *need* to do, but not sure how to do that yet...I'm working on it. Strangely enough, H and I have been having an extended, sort of funny but really interesting conversation about how men get turned on and want sex. I made the comment to him that he was acting like it had been a long time since we'd DTD, and he responded, "Is that what you think? That my interest is predicated on length of time since we've last ML?" Well, yes, that IS what I thought, and I told him so.

He filled me in on all the things that could possibly happen to put him in the mood. I'm wearing a dress...the wind blows...my hair is falling over my neck in a certain way...he sees an attractive woman in public (which bothered me at first, but he says it's more of a trigger, like yeah, I haves me a hot woman at home, I'd like to do it)...and so on. That was a real eye-opener to me. How do I not know this? Like, I know what to do to get his interest, but I was thinking more about what would prompt him to initiate.

Anyway, it's become a fun little conversation between us, and today I actually caught the moment that went through his head because of the way he looked at me. I had on a well fitting t-shirt, and I saw the little SHAZAM go through his mind. I was on my way to a massage, and he was on his way out the door for an overnight with his buddies for the fantasy football draft, so we couldn't act on it...but I see the potential to have some fun and play around with this concept.

I think we mostly need more play together. *I* am the goofball, free spirit, and H is more self-regulated. The best ML sessions have always been a bit more playful in nature, so this is where I'm going to focus my attention.

Sound good?

SD

PS--I *do* have a fb account...I think I have your email somewhere, so I'll look you up and then you can point me to Jen!

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

Anyway, it's become a fun little conversation between us, and today I actually caught the moment that went through his head because of the way he looked at me. I had on a well fitting t-shirt, and I saw the little SHAZAM go through his mind. I was on my way to a massage, and he was on his way out the door for an overnight with his buddies for the fantasy football draft, so we couldn't act on it...but I see the potential to have some fun and play around with this concept.

I'm impressed - way to go! Nice, open, friendly conversations about s-e-x - what a novel and wonderful concept! $\:\)$

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

I think we mostly need more play together. *I* am the goofball, free spirit, and H is more self-regulated. The best ML sessions have always been a bit more playful in nature, so this is where I'm going to focus my attention.

Sound good?

Sounds absolutely PERFECT.

Originally Posted By: SDFoundGirl

PS--I *do* have a fb account...I think I have your email somewhere, so I'll look you up and then you can point me to Jen!

Excellent! $\:\)$

Interesting exchanges here. They are helping me believe it or not - things to do/ not do in my next relationship.

SD - I need not say this b/c you already know. But I will say it anyway:

Think hard on the children thing.

I love my kids to death, but if someone told me that I would be divorced before they turned eight, well ................

No advice. Just consider carefully. What needs to be in place in your relationship before children arrive?

Set that boundary and see if you and H can work it.

Things are good. I don't know exactly what helped me shift, but I have definitely shifted. I am, essentially, suspending disbelief.

Since I have been more relaxed and playful, H has been more relaxed and playful. We are having fun together for possibly the first time in our M. I've realized that my playful, goofy nature is a major thing I bring to our M; H needs more of that in his ever so responsible life.

H has also been supportive when I've needed it (the first couple of weeks back to school/teaching are always flattening), and he's asked for help and support when he's needed it (which NEVER happened before). We are communicating, checking things out with each other, and having more fun.

Jeff...I hear what you are saying, but I'm wondering IF you could go back now, would you change having children? Even knowing the outcome? The reality for me is that I am 39, had trouble conceiving when we did try, and I want to be a mom. Honestly...it's probably the first time H and I REALLY want to have a child together. It's like we've jumped a hurdle together, and now we can do it.

Strangely, though, I feel less urgency and less of a power struggle now that I've let go of a lot of stuff. I feel pretty clear that H has no real interest in LW. I feel like I can let go and risk hurt again...and that I will be okay no matter what.

Time will only tell...

SD

Quote:

but I'm wondering IF you could go back now, would you change having children? Even knowing the outcome?

Interesting question and difficult. I love my kids but they deserve a whole family.

My mom and dad did not get along all that well and I still remember one of my biggest fears growing up was that my parents would divorce. I was so afraid b/c I just knew that my world would end.

So I know my dovorce is affecting my kids. They don't talk about it but I remember how I felt just considering the possibility. I can only imagine how I would have felt given if it were reality.

And I can't wait until xW or I start a relationship with someone else. That must really suck for the kids despite seeing *happy* blended families on the sitcoms.

Biological clocks are strong. Stay as objective as you can not letting the clock cloud your assessment.

And before the birth control stops, have that talk with H. Remind him of what you discuss here. Remind him again of your fears and concerns. Discuss how he, and you will commit. Discuss how you will parent BEFORE the kids come.

And put all the cards on the table, as scary as that is. He needs to know what you know before the kids enter the picture.

If you two have kids then jointly make the commitment. Sure, anything can happen later anyway, but at least you will leave no stone unturned going in.

There is no doubt in my mind that I would still have had my children. I love them so dearly. They are my life. On the other hand, it rips my heart out everynight...as I watch them warm, asleep, and their chest moving up and down ever so slowly....that this is happening to them. If it weren't for them, and if I hadn't found DB, I would have 'thrown my W out' a long time ago. I stayed in this as long as I could...for them. The thought of not being there with them, in the morning, to watch cartoons and pour milk on their Cocoa Puffs..is a pain that I could never put into words here on your thread.

If I didn't have children, I would have left this world feeling empty..unfulfilled....and feeling like I hadn't left something behind. I've wanted a family my whole life..in some ways....I think...to undo or do over what my father failed at.

Having children..or even a child....DOES make life more challenging, and, I agree with Jeff. Adding a child onto a marriage that is in piecing (or..? leaving and moving forward?)...well, I agree that it behooves you two to go for that proverbial long walk. It makes no sense to start a family...only to have it broken...if the foundation is not totally shored up. JMO.

On the positive side, even tho' I am approaching a big BD next year, I would have a third if I could. Doody diapers don't daunt me.

FIB

Part of the DBing journey for me has been to learn that life has no guarantees. You just have to do your best and move in the direction you believe is right, regardless of uncertainty and doubt. In fact, it is often facing your fears and going forward in spite of them that ends up resolving things in your favor.

Sure, it would be wonderful to guarantee our children that their parents will never split up, that life will always treat them fairly, that they will live in a world without war or hunger, etc.... Just like us, they will have to deal with the ups and downs as they come. As they do, we'll love them and support them and hope they can learn a little from our own experiences and mistakes.

I stopped to think about one of our good friends here, inspiredJulie. Her M didn't work out, and she sometimes worries about how that will impact her little girls. And yet, I believe that she sets a much better example of steadfast love, strength, and courage for those girls than many other kids see whose parents who are still together. I believe the world is much better off with Julie's girls in it, and I believe that they are going to be not just OK, but terrific, in the end.

SD.....how are you? Long time no post. FIB

Life is good.

This really deserves a longer post, but in a nutshell, I stopped looking for boogeymen, and my relationship changed dramatically. Maybe he could always sense my distrust and so acted in the way I expected, sort of like law of attraction. I just know that I have been spring cleaning internally, and I feel lighter and happier. I can't worry about what H might do, because the truth is, he's not doing anything but being wonderful right now. He's going out of his way and comfort zone to step it up and support me and build our relationship.

Me, I feel happier. Lighter. Relieved. Carrying that load around took its toll. I can't...won't live my life that way anymore.

SD

WTG. Wish I had the chance to reach and grab that brass ring. Kudos and hugs. FIB

I'm thinking it may be time for me to leave. This is like the last security blanket, and checking in every day, no matter how much I love the people here and no matter how appreciative I am of the help is keeping me from moving fully forward.

I can't stay in summer 2006 forever. I want to focus on here and now and life I have with DH post-bomb. I don't want to dredge up old bodies or look for old ghosts.

One last hurdle was overcome for me in the past few weeks, one big, huge, ginormous barrier between us, and H was nothing but amazing.

I have so much gratitude for this place and the people who helped me along the way. I know I would not have the R and life I have now without this place, this experience. There are no regrets, only appreciation that I was lucky enough to come through the fire a stronger, better, happier, more grounded person.

Thank you...really. I am finally living life.

SD

You know where to find us if you need to.

Best of luck - glad I met you.

I'll always consider you one of my best friends, SD. Your straight talk and terrific sense of humor got me through some of the worst times - thank you.

I hope you live happily ever after.

Rob

wow SD... best of luck to you girlie!!! Glad things are going so well. Thanks for your humor and help along my path.

I will miss you ... I hope you find me on FB, I'm not too difficult to find.

I understand how you feel too ... having to let go and live that life ... it IS good to hand something back, but I see so many people giving great advice here .... and for me too coming here too much made me scan the skies for the next bomb warning signs. I am slowly, surely getting out of that habit.

I know we're not allowed to post any contact details here ,,,, but really really on FB I won't be too difficult to find, just think of a famous Irish whiskey

Aren't there a LOT of famous Irish Whiskeys out there? LOL.

SD...I, too, want to thank you for all the support you've given me. I envy those here....who stretched out really far and grabbed that brass ring. I envy those here whose S's were able to 'see the light' and value the very thing that they were about to throw away. I envy those that have finally reached their vista and can wave goodbye to the turbulent storms on the other side of the mountain as they see Emerald City ahead.

All I can say is....thank you.

FIB

Glad for you, babe! Keep on keeping on!