How can I listen if she won’t talk?

Divorcebusting.com

Old thread is over 100 posts, so it’s time to start a new one. It’s also time for a fresh approach.

Here’s the background.

About two years ago, there was a massive change in my W’s behavior.

Prior to that (from my perspective sudden) shift, we struggled together to have a “couple’s life” despite raising four children (youngest is autistic). We didn’t have many friends or activities, but we did as much as we could together, and as a family.

For a few months, I was working out of the country. We only saw each other on weekends. W adapted to this. Perhaps this was the trigger for her to decide that she needed to be more independent. She grew strong and independent, and dealt with the family situation so well. I can’t describe the intestinal fortitude she showed. She’s an amazingly strong woman. I’ve always thought so. Guess she believes it now, too.

Anyway, she started doing things for/by herself. This would be great except that when I stopped travelling, it seemed like I was forgotten. The kids felt the same way. Seemed like after years of self-sacrifice, she’d had enough.

But, rather than seeking my support for her new freedom, she felt that I was a barrier to it. She avoided involving me in her new life for fear that I’d interfere. She said that I’ve always had things my way. Now that she found friends/activities that she enjoys, she wouldn’t “give them up” for me. She wouldn’t “Let me do that to her again.”

My travel, workload, and R burned me out. I became clinically depressed. Since she had complained that I never shared my feelings with her, I started to do this. Misery loves company, but company doesn’t love misery. A severely depressed person should not try to become open with their spouse! But a severely depressed person cries out for help. I couldn’t help it.

This situation only served to illustrate my neediness, selfishness, and that I was trying to “do it to her” again.

As I dragged myself out of depression, I came to understand that sharing my feelings was counterproductive. I also came to understand that my past behavior did not reflect the love and care that I had for my W. I also figured out that telling W this was falling on deaf ears. I had to act like the person that I thought I was.

This meant supporting W. Being her friend.

I’m not saying that I did a particularly good job of this over the past two years, but I tried.

What did I try?

The first step was to go gray. As needy as I was, I could not show it. Any expression of need was viewed as blaming her for my depression. The second step was to do things by/for myself to express my own independence while still trying to allow W her freedom by helping more around the house and with the kids. The third step was to try to weasle my way back into her life without appearing controlling or interfering.

Then I tried to reopen communications. That’s when I discovered what a lousy job I did of the first three steps.

W felt that when I went gray, it was just a continuation of my behavior of keeping my feelings to myself. She viewed this – along with my behavior over the past 23 years in terms of a wall that I built between us. I knew that I couldn’t blast the wall down (tried that, remember?), so I started chipping at it with a teaspoon.

So… Where am I now?

W has allowed me into her circle of friends, and includes my friends in the circle. We do things “with the gang”, We occasionally do things alone. We have coffee together each weekday morning. We’ve stopped pointing fingers (at least overtly), and we’ve both expressed a desire to be more open with each other.

The kicker is, that we constantly misinterpret each others words and actions. We’re afraid to talk openly to each other because of this. So, the wall is as tall and as solid as ever.

This morning, I told her that, as far as my privacy is concerned, we can discuss anything. There are topics – particularly anything that I’m ashamed of – that are difficult for me to talk about, but I’m willing to talk about them anyway. At the same time, I respect her right to decide what she considers too personal to talk about.

She’s very tired, and didn’t want to discuss this further, but I’m hoping that we can open up and discuss things to the point where we can understand each other without jumping to conclusions.

Previous Threads:

Andy's Story
We don't know how the future will turn out
Bringing the Walls Down with a Teaspoon
Struggling with Perceptions
Burying the Past

Andy,

In reference to "echoing, or empathetic listening"(from your last post on your old thread)

quote:
Originally posted by ANS:

I’ve heard of this technique, but the issue isn’t that she doesn’t think I’m listening. The issue seems to be that I always misinterpret what she says. So she’s given up trying to tell me things.

That's exactly why it can be an effective technique.

If you echo back to her what she said, then how can she say you misinterpreted it?

If she thinks you misinterpret what she says..then in effect she thinks your not listening.

Does that make sense?

Duchess

Makes sense, Duchess. But...

She knows I hear the words.

However, If I don't make a remark about what she said, she assumes that I'm stewing over it.

If I do make a remark on what she said, she accuses me of black-and-white thinking. Of twisting her words.

If I don't make an immediate remark on what she said, she assumes I'm trying to find a way to twist her words, and even worse, saving up my feelings for a blowout.

Parroting the words may – in some cases – be an effective way of making someone think they’ve been heard, but in my case, it’s her assumptions about what’s going on in my head after I’ve heard the words.

Make sense?

BTW, welcome to my first poster to my new thread. Sorry, no door prizes.

Andy

quote:
Originally posted by ANS:

Parroting the words may – in some cases – be an effective way of making someone think they’ve been heard, but in my case, it’s her assumptions about what’s going on in my head after I’ve heard the words.

Yikes..this is a tough one..

Duchess

I guess we’ve both gone dark on each other at some point, and the result is that neither of us completely believes what the other says.

This morning, W accused me of reading too much into what she says. I told her that words are an imperfect means of expressing our feelings, and when I probe her for clarification, I’m not making assumptions. I told her that she’s misinterpreting my responses to what she says, too.

You’d think that after 23 years together, we could make ourselves understood to each other. In fact, the opposite is true. We have so much history together, that assumptions run rampant. I think it’s also true that moods affect what we think at a given moment, and therefore, we give a constant stream of conflicting signals.

It’s perfectly normal for one to make a statement at one moment and state the exact opposite at another time. But which is the “true” expression of one’s feelings?

Which statement is to be believed?

There are two barriers to our understanding of each other.

Firstly, we have too little time to express our feelings. Except for our morning coffee, we’re never alone, and even then we’re interrupted as soon as the kids start waking up. Should we spend our only “couples” time hashing out our feelings? How can that bring us closer together?

The second barrier is fatigue. As happened this morning, we started to hash out our communications problems, but W was too tired to continue. The discussion was left hanging.

I think that the only way we can work on this is to keep as open as we can. That’s what I intend to do. Just hafta keep in mind that a constant stream of OR talks promotes an oppressive atmosphere.

I guess it’s still slowlee, slowlee. In this case, the monkey isn’t me per se. It’s open communications and sharing of feelings with me. I have to make this an attractive option by trying to dispell her assumptions about what I say, and by trying to be clear about my responses. I also have to be as clear as I can when I express my own feelings.

I’ve told her that any topic is open. I don’t think she believes me, but I just have to wait until she does.

Andy

Hi ANS...*smile*...

..."Just hafta keep in mind that a constant stream of OR talks promotes an oppressive atmosphere."....

You said it, ANS. Don't let words get in the way. How about some time just enjoying silence together? Would that make you uncomfortable?

Maybe you're putting too much importance on this verbal communication thing. Feelings are sometimes best expressed by actions...a look, a smile, a touch...that sort of thing. What do you think?

..."Firstly, we have too little time to express our feelings. .....Should we spend our only “couples” time hashing out our feelings? How can that bring us closer together?"...

You know the answer to that one. Appreciate the time you have together, and enjoy it, ANS. Sit back and relax, and don't worry if W doesn't want to talk. Some people are more reserved than others...some people are quiet a lot of the time, and speak only when they have something to say....I came from an entire family of people like that...*smile*...

Don't know if this helps or not...just a thought...keep smiling....R8

Thanks, r8.

A *smile* always helps.

I don't want to give the impression that Andy's house is rife with tension. It's not. We certainly can, and do spend quiet time together. Admittedly, there's not enough of this. As I mentioned, 4 kids, and one particularly disruptive handicapped kid don't make for serene surroundings.

My dilemma is that when we do communicate, we both get caught up in what we think the other is thinking. We know each other well enough to have a pretty good idea of each other's patterns of thought.

BUT

Those patterns are changing! We're just having an hard time figuring each other out.

We both have a lot to say. Just can't get the message accross.

Andy

Yesterday our C had us in session for 21/2 hours. Again she mentioned how she enjoys "working" w us.

She told us to "stop reading each other's minds". She mentioned that active listening and the echoing as well.

She also told us to start 'playing'. We're supposed to start nurturing the injured children that we brought into our M. When I have a quiet time I might post about that on my thread.

Son wants 'puter, C ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andy,

No matter how long you've been together, you'll never really know what's going on in the other person's mind. Hopefully, we all grow and change over the years and as such our thoughts also change. Don't ever take for granted that you know what she's thinking or that she knows what you're thinking. Make it perfectly clear what you're trying to communicate and ask for clarification from her if you have any question whatsoever that you might be misinterpreting her remarks.

I thought I knew my H so well and what knew what he was thinking. Look how wrong I was. Also, when I've tried the parroting experiment with H (as Dutches was explaining), I've found my H meant something entirely different than what I was hearing!! That hasn't changed in all these years. He knows exactly what he means, but doesn't say it in a way that I know exactly what he means, and visa-versa.

And, you're right, too many OR talks are oppressive. Laugh, have fun. I'm sure you do, but sometimes from your posts it sounds like you're looking for every opportunity to "tune into" your wife. Sometimes you gotta just relax and not worry so much. If you think you've said the wrong thing, grab her, kiss her, grab her rear end and say, "You know that's not what I meant," or whatever. Don't take EVERYTHING so seriously. [Big Grin]

And remember what I said in my reply on my thread, You're the lucky one. You have a wonderful chance at the greatest R in the world. Slowly, Slowly.

Love,

Matilda

Hi Andy - you know I've mentioned a time or two that you remind me of my H sometimes. And this subject is one of those times.

It's frustrating isn't it? Do you form your thoughts before she's done talking? Do you start talking the second she's finished her last word? Do you start going off on a subject until she just throws her hands up?

I just wonder because those are some of the things IGgy does still. What seems to work for him (for me) is if he acnowledges what I've said. That's really about it. Just that he acnowledges it. Even if it's just - I heard what you said. I don't understand it -or- I don't know how to respond -or- this is my opinion, would you listen?

That way you aren't trying to think 3 steps ahead and she doesn't feel like she could be reciting the phone listings to you for the same response.

Also, I know that IGgy tends to over think/work/do things and messes himself up. Then he gets mad outwardly for his own stuff. Sound like something that makes sense?

Hope that helps. Also, I gave IGgy a copy of that quote you posted on my thread. He really really liked it so thank you again. You take care and SLOW DOWN!!!!

Lily, I agree that we have to stop trying to read each other’s minds. The kicker is that we don’t seem to talk enough. We hide things from each other. This leaves the other trying to mind-read in order not to get blind-sided when the issue eventually comes to the surface. And I agree with Matilda 100% that we have to make ourselves crystal clear. But, like Fille said, it’s a goal, and cannot be accomplished overnight.

So, how slowlee is slowlee? A month? Two months? Six months? A year? I don’t have the answer to that question except to say that it’s more than 16 months for me (and counting). Yeah, Fille. I know. There’s no magic formula. Just gotta keep trying eh? Slowlee.

Hey. That sounds kinda familiar…

We can even grow beyond these things. I just need you to know that I'm trying. Please share with me, but try not to attack or judge me for these wounds I carry. And I will try my best to do the same for you. Then holiness will be served here, and the relationship can deepen.

Forgive me, if you can, and I vow to try to forgive you.

--From Enchanted Love : The Mystical Power of Intimate Relationships, by Marianne Williamson. � February 2001

In a practical vein… Yes, Fille. I do form my thoughts before she’s done talking. I do not, however form an opinion. I suppose my delay in opinion forming is to counteract my propensity for thinking ahead. Call it a handicap. Try as I might, I cannot silence the voices in my head. Believe me, I do try to, but it is a weakness that I simply cannot overcome. I’ve told her that I think while she’s talking, and I have to concentrate on what she (or anyone else) says very hard to keep it above the “head talk.”

I do not start talking the second she finishes. I suppose that this is what she wants. Instead, I digest what she’s said, and if necessary bring it up again later. Sound like I’m too analytical?

Given that W has told me that I “never” listened to her, I feel that I had to pay particular attention to what she said. I had to figure out what she meant. A lot of times, she wouldn’t clarify herself. She was just too frustrated, and didn’t want to get into a pissing contest. This left me to figure it out on my own.

To wit:

Lately, W has been sleeping very poorly. She wakes up often, worrying about “something.” What does she have to worry about? As far as I know…

My attitude,
my job security
do I blame her for my unhappiness
will I try to stop her (particularly via emotional blackmail) from attaining her goals (such as her bike)

So, I ask her what’s wrong. Why can’t she sleep. She doesn’t want to talk about it.
This is what I want to get away from.. The adversarial mindset. I want to move towards one where we can discuss things, ask for clarification, and truly understand “what’s in each other’s head.” Compromize. Negotiate. Relate.

All I can think of to do right now is to be available if she wants to talk, and whenever she does talk, to listen and react calmly but honestly.

Ok, I see some headway here.

First off - Shutting off the voices takes time (OH WHAT DOESN'T ALREADY!!!! [Mad]

). Anyway, it will probably never fully go away but as the pressure lessens and the practice continues you should find it easier.

Next - I can understand your reasoning for forming your thoughts but can you see where you really can't listen if your busy thinking? It's like listening when you're watching tv. We think we are but we aren't.

Here we're kindof forced to "listen" because we're reading posts. But if they get long or we're in a hury we're likely to scan. But even there we can go back if need be. Can you try to incorporate that concept in to real life?

Do you work really hard to make sure things are just so [Roll Eyes]

? I'm kindof laughing because it's an ernest question but I know it doesn't sound like it. I used to try to be so "perfect" but wasn't getting the proper results. Now I just am and seem to have more success. Of course, too lax isn't good either...

So last point you were hitting was close but I think you may be digging too deep. How can she feel as though you are listening to her? What can you do to convey that to her? What would she then do to show that she sees you doing it?

Sleep and lack thereof matters but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's the driving factor. I think it's just learning how to speak enough of each other's language instead of expecting the other to learn all of the others. It's really hard to break the dance and ultimately I do think it takes a LOT of give and not as much take on both sides.

Ooops! I've done it again! Blab blab blab...but I do think you guys are doing really well here. And as I said before - I do see great changes in you since you first came here. Time is on your side (yes it is....)

[ April 15, 2002, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]

Andy...

The thing about thinking about what she's saying as she's saying it is, to me, a problem in that I try to anticipate too much. I try to anticipate what she's going to say next, to anticipate which pattern of behavior this comment will predicate, or to anticipate how she'd going to attack me. I focus on what I think and not what she's saying. So much for listening.

In a recent therapy session, I finally conceeded that this time I was not going to talk about what I thought, only about what I knew for a fact. The C said "good. That's a good start, because then you are dealing with the facts at hand, and not the worries and concerns you manufacture in your mind." Wow. That hit me. I was just being flip with my comment, not knowing that I'd hit on something big. Facts on their own, not what they are after my mind processes them.

On Oprah 2 weeks ago (don't imagine you see it over there, but you can buy and download the transcripts), Dr. Phil did a show on communication. A comment the really hit for me was when Phil had a woman stand up, face her husband, and tell him from deep down what she needed without criticism, with out negatives, just needs. He implored the man to just look her in the eye and listen. Listen. Don't look around, don't be thinking about the hidden meanings he thinks she has, don't be thinking about what he's going to say back to her. Just listen. Hear her, and hear and feel her pain. I still can't do it that well myself, but I understand the direction and see its wisdom. And, I taped the show and got W to watch it with me. I felt some progress there.

Just my thoughts today...

z

Andy,

I relate to this alot. I saw that I did not know how to listen, not just to my husband. It's the most wonderful thing to be able to really Hear someone. Even if what they are saying is painful just to hear. That's what true intimacy is about, being able to share everything, anything that we want to with those we love.

Something which helped me alot was in the book, fighting for your marriage, by howard markham & co. In it, he describes the speaker-listener techinque. It takes alot of practise, but it works. Look into it. It really changed how I was able to communicate.

Also, I agree, that to simply listen, acknowledge & validate your spouse is one of the most powerful things we can do. It's a gift. We all want to be heard, just as we are. No thoughts, no answer, explainations, justifying, defending, no commmentary. Only listening with our hearts.

Good morning,Andy!

Tidbit for you re the thyroid. A lot of hypoT post nail problems. One in particular is that we tend to lose those half moons (except on thumbs) on our digits.

Also, I used to be unable to sleep. Don't know if that was thyroid related or perimenopausal.

For the last 1/2 year I sometimes wake about 3a w garbage thoughts. Doc that monitors me for thyroid queries me about my sleep patterns in effort to monitor me for signs of depression.

Calcium and magnesium (and vit D) before bed is good for sleep.

********************************************

Andy, thanks for doing the links to my old threads. I only recently went back to my first entry on this thread and was pleased by what you'd done for me.

********************************************

I'm remembering something I read somewhere in which it says that the spouse remembers everything we say. I can remember how I went from a blabbering wife to one who couldn't think of a thing to say. Then I read somewhere that if your spouse likes to laugh then do/say things that will cause them to smile. H always enjoyed my dry humor so I'm trying to bring that back plus respond in humorous ways to some of the stuff he says.

When you've been married going on 29 years it's hard to go back to the beginning and talk about the stuff you talked about in the beginning. I find us going there and although the visits are short it's good.

WOW! Thanks for all the responses, gang.

I have to say one thing about “the voices.” I wasn’t exaggerating when I questioned whether or not I’m in some way handicapped. When we were kids, who ever heard of ADD? Anyway, rest assured that I’m not making excuses, and I’m doing all I can to quell the voices. BTW, it’s not just a man thing. My daughter is like that too (heredity?)

Fille,

Yes, I am a perfectionist. My first 180 was to stop this – especially wrt communications. I used to interrupt W all the time to insert the “perfect” word or phrase to finish off her idea. But, I did stop doing this. If there’s one thing that I’ve been very conscious of, it’s not to speak until she’s finished. We used to think it was “cute” that we could finish each other’s sentence. We all know that there comes a time that this becomes irritating instead of cute.

I agree with you that we have to learn each other’s language. In my case, it goes beyond mars/venus. Her mother tongue is French, while mine is English. When we met, she had high school level English while I had high school level French. Perhaps it was out of necessity that we started correcting each other. Anyway, in addition to our gender differences, our communications styles are a result of language differences and cultural differences.

quote:
Originally posted by Fille:

So last point you were hitting was close but I think you may be digging too deep. How can she feel as though you are listening to her? What can you do to convey that to her? What would she then do to show that she sees you doing it?

Yes. I think my last point is the biggy. I guess the real issue isn’t whether or not I hear the words, or even understand her POV. The issue is that she feels that she’s had to accede to my wishes for our entire marriage. She doesn’t want to “take turns” though. In other words, it’s not her turn to have her way all the time. One of my initial 180s was to give in to her all the time. I’m still doing that to a degree, and will continue to do it until she stops viewing me as a road block to her desires. I’ve started to voice my objections, but back off rather quickly. She still wants to win me over to her POV, and senses that though I relent, she hasn’t convinced me. In some cases, she’s right, in some cases, she’s wrong.

Guess it’s just a matter of time ‘til she sees that I’m not a doormat or a roadblock.

I disagree with you, though, wrt the importance of fatigue. Sleep is an important part of that, but it’s really fatigue that I’m talking about. I’ve mentioned before that we have 4 kids and our youngest is autistic. This is stressful beyond imagination. Try to imagine waking to screaming fits at 5:30AM seven days a week. Then, after starting your morning like that, packing him off to school knowing that upon his return, he’s quite likely to continue in that vein until 8:30PM.

That’s the worst case scenario, of course, but it happens, and it’s exhausting. W and I have both burned out at some point, and the accumulation of all of this plus the “normal” day-to-day stuff is immense.

Perhaps this is why I’ve never ascribed “alien” behavior to my W. I can not and will not blame her for wanting to jump into the escape pod.

Zebra,

My W watches Oprah a lot. I don’t know if she has been in the last little while, but I don’t think she’s ready to do anything as intense as the exercise you mentioned.

Esperanza,

I have to disagree with you on something. I don’t believe that true intimacy is about sharing everything. There are things that my W told me over a year ago from which I still bear the scars. I think true intimacy is knowing what to say, how to say it, and when to say it. It also entails a mutual trust that what is left unsaid does not damage the R.

Lily,

Thanks for the tips. My W has, in the past, been tested for thyroid. Is it time for a re-test? Perhaps, but you and I have already had that discussion. I cannot bring it up. That’s one of those “private” things for her. However, yesterday, we did discuss vitamins, calcium, etc as sleep aids.

We’re both trying the humour thing. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it hits a nerve, but we’re both regaining the ability to laugh – even at ourselves.

TTFN,
Andy

Andy I understand about the voices and they are an impediment to listening.

When My S was attending the therapeutic boarding school we had to attend grouup sessions both with other parents and with our kids.They could be brutal..too brutal...confronting people on their behaviour was the thing to do(turns out the wrong thing for me and for my M)

I always though of myself as a good listener.One day a guy in the group blew up at me and told me I didn't listen. I was shocked and a few days later I called him.He is a high powered exec type.He told me that sometimes when peole are listening, there are words, felings going on in their heads that impede their ability to TRULY LISTEN.he felt that's what I was doing.

You may be right it may be an ADD thing (Wellbutrin should help that some though)
That's why(here I go again)..people like me(I'm a little ADDish)have to force themselves to actively listen, wipe the mind clear before you start...AND if you do the echoing, parroting or whatever you call it..you HAVE to wipe the mind clear so you can truly hear..I'm rambling again..this is all good stuff..

Duchess

[ April 16, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]

The voices! The voices! Somebody stop the voices!!!!!

Has anyone seen the film A Beautiful Mind?

I don't think you really understand how severe things have been in my household [Roll Eyes]

. I'm really not being glib [Big Grin]

. I understand what you're saying about your voices and am telling you what I've seen IGgy do as well as myself and my own voices. Part of it really is not pressuring yourself but consistently working it. And when you fall off the horse every ten seconds keep trying without beating yourself up. It will most likely never be 100% gone but it will be much more live with-able and when things get rougher you can retreat and get back on course. If, in really doing that - say for a good month - you still aren't seeing any results, maybe another trip to the doctor may not be a bad idea. Unless you don't think that's a good idea. Then it goes to working around it and also making sure that the solution works for her as well as you.

As for the rest - I do remember how strenuous your life is right now with the kids and all. Not discounting the lack of rest at all. Just please don't discount my surface approach. When the car knocks & pings, sometimes it's not thousands of $ to repair. And sometimes even when once before it was, the next time it may not be.

The original thing seemed to be how to get her to talk and for you to listen. You are making great progress but your tendancy to dig in and root up everything is full boar again from what I see. It gets really frustrating to try to say something to someone and have them consistently bat everything away without really seeming to understand you in the first place. A response for everything. I used to be really really bad at that (still am sometimes) and it's damn hard to just sit back and say I hear you. I appreciate what you're saying. I agree or disagree but I hear what you're saying. Or just saying nothing at all.

I also find that those of us who do that are most likely to not appreciate it when others do it to us.

So I'm just suggesting it might behoove you to slow down and not work this like a puzzle that must be solved immediately. Chances are, you guys may just be living life to the max until the kids are older. And with the one, you may always have that stress so it's best to keep on the path of learning how to incorporate it into life as it is instead of trying to find a fix that may not be. But I know you know this stuff - it's just getting it to work for the two of you.

I'm wondering what Michele would say here. What do you think she'd say? I have a couple of ideas but wonder what you or someone else would say.

Andy,

I may not have been very clear with you. Maybe I can clarify if I'm not on the right track.

I've always wanted to be able to share everything & not hold anything back from my husband. I want a honest, deep & open connection with him where I feel safe to simply Be myself. But that's not my nature, I hold back. It's a self-protective thing, most of us do it. Also, it requires that we do feel safe & have a deep trust in them to be able to open up.

In my case, my husband has been very hurt by this. When I hold things in, he feels as if I'm hiding things, or that I'm not able to share with him so deeply. I understand this & agree with him. But, I've also come to see that sometimes we share things that perhaps it's best left unspoken. Sometimes, we talk to relieve our own guilt or to make ourselves feel better.

Things like that can & often do lead to misunderstanding & hurt feelings. It's a fine line what we really need to share with them & what not to. I didn't mean to imply that we should let it all hang out. I simply thought in your case that your wife wants you to be more open with her. Sharing intimately like that is a challenge then because we are so vulnerable in those moments, but the rewards are extraordinary in bringing a couple closer together. That's what I was getting at.

Andy, maybe it's the little headache I have that prevents me from understanding part of your last post to my thread.

. . .low part of the roller coaster when things start to look up. . .

I like the content of the stuff being posted on your thread. This numbness fits it. Got to lose it so that I can listen, really listen. You too?

My H's ancestry is Spanish. He's spouting French phrases (I'm clueless) these last couple of months. At first my hackles rose because one of ow's son's names is Etienne (sp?) and I figured H and she spoke French together. I knew H's sister had studied French so I asked H and he said he'd had a year of it.
I'm realizing that H keeps his mind chock full of data so that he can avoid thoughts re the last year. I think a lot of his mental R work takes plae when he gets stuck doing some meticulus repetiive task. The French is just another way for him to dodge. Beautiful language but totally baffles me when I try to read it.

Gee, this seems to be shaping up to a special kind of hell for you Andy...buncha chicks wanting you to listen to them [Big Grin]

.

I almost feel sorry for ya [Roll Eyes]

Andy -

Are you a big "fixer"? Do you always know the solution to problems? Do you have to really restrain yourself from having to solve other's dilemmas?

I was there, and I found it to be a BIG problem in my communication skills with my wife. She would take my "helping" her as me thinking she couldn't handle things on her own. This built up a giant wall, and immediately put her on the defensive. Our talks went absolutely nowhere but down.

I've found that the more I let her talk things through, the better. When she keeps her thoughts inside of her head, they start to get all jumbled up, and go off in wierd directions sometimes. "Thinking out loud" really helps her, and she really appreciates it.

The code for us now is, "Honey, I'm just thinking out loud, so don't hold anything I say against me". Or "I don't want you to feel you have to fix this for me, I just need to talk this through".

We often have to interupt each other, too, to keep us from interupting each other! I think she rambles all over the place, but if I let her just go on, things eventually come around full circle to the root of what she's feeling. She thinks I take too long to get to my point (which I definitely do at times!), so I try to give her the Reader's Digest condensed version whenever possible.

Don't know if any of this may help you, but it might give you a few different ideas to try, or some things to think about! [Smile]

Hi, Andy.

H an I had lunch together today. He made a remark, which I THOUGHT I understood perfectly well. Later when I got home I sent him an E-mail about his remark -- supposed to be funny. Well, I happened to be on the phone with him when he opened the e-mail. He read the first line and said "that's not what I meant." "Is that what you said?" "Yes, but this is how I meant it." Hmmmm?

Matilda

That's a whole other can of worms. We've spent a LOT of time here learning how to say what we mean and mean what we say. Mind reading is not only not likely, but would anyone really want that?

Frankly, I'd want it. My W has told me things that range from (and I paraphrase) "You're a controlling person. I'm not going to let you jack me around anymore" to "I really appreciate all that you've done for me and our family."

I wish I could read hermind just long enough to figure out if she's posturing to get what she wants, or placating me out of sympathy.

The ttile of my thread is "How can I listen if she won�t talk?", but the other problem is that when she talks, how do I know if she really means it?

Andy

Andy,

There isn't an answer for that question. I guess she means what she is saying at that particular point in time, but may feel differently later? I think we all realize that words spoken in anger are often not the true feelings, so I guess that is all we have to go on. Confusion in W's mind will cause her to say contradictory things...I know I get that a lot from my H.

Try asking for confirmation that what you "hear" is what she "said". I have come to realize that after being together 16 yrs, my H makes a lot of assumptions and has often decided what I was going to say or how I was going to react in advance. It's a major roadblock to communication.

Listening is an art we all need to work on.

Daisy

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Sorry if I don’t respond to each poster individually. It’s all thought provoking stuff, and very useful.

But, I think that at this point, I have to rein in my thoughts. Things are pretty cool right now, so I don’t think it’s time to stir the pot.

Yes, I have a lot of hurt from things W said and did. Do I really want to know if she’s posturing/placating?

I guess the answer is yes as long as the answer is “posturing.” Problem is that I don’t even know if W knows. She tells me things because she wants to be honest, and wants me to know that my past behavior has consequences. Unfortunately, I cannot use this information. I cannot unring the bell.

I’ve DB’d my butt off, and all of you long time readers of my threads know how disappointed I was when I found out how little effect it had on W. I’ve gone back to the drawing board several times.

I guess it’s just time to go with the flow.

TTFN,
Andy

Hi, Andy.

I'm glad to hear that things are "cool"now. Yeah, it is time to go with the flow. I think that sometimes we get so caught up in DB'ing and looking for all the "little signs" that we forget to just be happy with what we've got right in front of us. For you, you've got a W who's there with you and still trying to figure things out. Can you really expect a whole lot more?

Nobody said that if you DB'd your butt off that things would be perfect and you'd live happily ever after. Unless you consider the fact that you're still married, you know your W cares for you and is trying to make sense of everything -- maybe that is happily ever after, after all! Who knows.

Love,

Matilda

Thanks, Matilda.

Yeah, things are cool, but I hafta admit that I still want things to get hot [Wink]

I gave up looking for little signs a long time ago. I get down when W ignores me for awhile. I feel better when she makes some sort of effort.

I know it sounds pathetic, but yesterday she went for a walk, and asked me along. That felt good. The other night, she told me some stuff that she was told in confidence. It’s these small things that make all the difference.

BTW, the confidence that I spoke of was from TF’s W (TF is my troubled friend that I referred to in other threads). She cut him off from sex as punishment for being grumpy. W finds this very distasteful. I think it’s horrible.

As to me, I still miss the affection. W isn’t punishing me. She just doesn’t want it. I think that hurts even more than if she was being vindictive. I feel so undesirable and unloved when the only one who initiates a hug is me. I feel awful when she never says ILY, and only responds with a grunt or a nod when I say it.

I’ve noticed that this happens more often when she’s particularly tired, so I try to prepare myself.

The flow isn’t necessarily a good thing, but I have to go with it. When – like this weekend – the flow goes my way (sorta), then it’s easier.

I’m not looking for “happy ever after.” But I guess some sort of effort on her part would be nice.

Just have to manage my expectations I suppose. A coupla weeks ago, she told me that she thought I was waiting for her to change, and that it wouldn’t happen. I denied it, but I suppose she’s right

Just gotta stay [Cool]

while I wait it out.

Andy

well, ya are so cool...!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still goin’ with the flow.

I hafta say that ebb and flow is a lot easier than the ups and downs of the roller coaster. I’ve been at this for a long time, and I guess the feelings even out once you’ve come as far as I have, and also knowing how slow the changes occur.

I think that we all have to remember that there’s a lot happening behind the scenes. We don’t showcase our changes, so why should our SO? I know it’s hard to believe this. Anyone who has read my old threads knows that things often seemed to improve (slowlee) only to drop right back at square-one (suddenly).

But, they weren’t really back to square-one. A lot happened subliminally that neither W nor I could see.

To wit:

quote:
Originally posted by Andy:

I’m not looking for “happy ever after.” But I guess some sort of effort on her part would be nice.

I posted yesterday that W is speaking to TF’s W and that my W thinks that her manipulative tactics are terrible.

Well, yesterday, W reiterated that she’s not withholding affection. She’s just very tired. I told her that I know she’s not trying to punish me (like TF’s W). She shook her head vehemently and seemed a little relieved that I believe this.

She then told me (Lily’s going to love this) that she’s considering having blood tests. She can’t seem to shake her fatigue, no matter how much sleep she gets.

As I write this post, it occurs to me that the topic of this thread is becoming obsolete. Perhaps I’m being premature, Dunno. But, what the heck.

See y’all over in Goin’ with the Flow

TTFN,
Andy

[ April 23, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: ANS ]