Ya know... I thought I'd move over to a slower paced thread where the messages don't get to page 7 in the first three hours of the day. I needed to start a new thread anyway, but not sure where I fit.
So knowing my friend Andy will be reading... I'll ask him please Andy 
to do the magic hoo haa of linking up my story. The first thread from March of 01 has disappeared somewhere but the tap dancing one must be oh around page 10 I would guess 
So bottom line.... bomb - October 2000 - bitter and uncomfortable for 9 loooong months... haardly any talking, still slept in the same bed, managed the kids - he told no one excpet one person - a woman - he works with. He also told her about his secret fantasy crush on a woman he works with who is 20 years younger. I learned about the fantasy EA a week before Christmas 2000. Have been to counselling, working on myself still and watching slowlee slowlee as we move forward.
July 1 2001 fireworks... sex, but no kissing at all. December 23rd... kissing... vertically too not just in the sack. Always on his terms still, If I initiate a kiss... I get the cheek sigh...
Very nice presents this year... and more talking. Still not "dating" or talking of going away together or anything like that. Family vacation talk still goes on, future talk about work and house still go on... but he won't get personal or deep with me at all. To be fair... I don't ask or go to deep into those kind of conversations either.
so NOW what??? More of the same? Keep doing what I am doing? it appears to be working. Very few back slides these days. Every now and again I go sort of dusky just to test him. It appears to work. When I see him getting cranky and retreating to his cave I leave him be, although I do ask about bad days now and let him know that I recognize a change in his behavior and attitude.
busted? or bent? getting there? or plateaued? Gotta thank Lily for making me start thinking onn this track.
tree
who's PMA is actually pretty good! 
Hey Tree! Nice to see you someplace other than newcomer's forum. Andy is heading home now, so perhaps he'll see your post from there?
I don't know that I have any advice for you. I usually listen to your advice.
But I'm happy for you that your marriage is moving ahead and you are feeling more hopeful.
((((((Hugs))))))
Jen
Nie digs tree.
Here's your last thread:
slow dancing or tapping furiously - part 2
Yeah. Now what? It's kinda hard to determine if you've "arrived" or if there's more. There's no such thing as a perfect M, so how do you know when it's as good as it'll ever get?
We go from panic to obsession to relative peace. Are we there yet? Ah. But satisfaction is more than peace.
So, like you I’m “peacing” my M back together (did ya catch the pun? I’m oh so funny)
Adny ( the guy who just won't let it go 
)
Tree,
Lily is correct. You belong here when YOU think you belong. It is all about perception. Does this mean it is over? No-way. But your on the right path.
HI Tree! Nice to see you here. I'm not as experienced as the others to be able to offer advice...sounds like your DB has been working, though.
Keep it up.
FS
Hello treesa!
I'd say it certainly sounds like your hard work is paying off. You're wise to take it slowly and ask questions of whether you're really piecing yet or not. My mistakes at reconciliation included anticipating the return of complete intimacy too quickly, backsliding on hardwon new behaviours, and assuming I could realx, and stop DBing. So on that note, I'd say you have a good chance given your caution and wisdom.
Bon chance,
Alex
Alex!
WONDERFUL to get yr input. I was hoping I'd catch up with you somewhere along the line.
Thanks for the coaching coach! You had me early on in the game and I am delighted you're here when I need you.
Thanks all the rest of yas too. Nice to see you wfor the support. Kent... glad you too keep coming back!
I'll be back with more no doubt
Tree
Moved out to the 'burbs, huh? Real estate is a little higher out here than the "inner city" we've been livin' in
Nice place though. Spacious and quiet. How about that Big Easy!!! Hottest place north of Havana, to paraphrase an old song.
Oh, and BTW - you KNOW what to do, right?
Blue
[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: bluedogg ]
down dawg!!!! WHY is it that EVERY man I KNOW has asked me the exact same question???!!!!
Burbs... cute.. yeah.. pretty quiet... but the quality is here too. except for a few dawgs who don't get out near enough!
Interesting how things go around the new tree house... but it's still a pretty slooooow dance. Nothing unusual in that I expect. It's appearing better I believe. Don't have a lot of negative to report so that must be good. He's still hangin in the garage and the cave but not nearly as much. Recognizing the signs is half the battle. Knowing to speak and when to shut up are the other bit. HMM
tree
lookin for the tango!
wowrking at not yakking tooooo much
Howdy tree!!
So glad you've finally joined us'ns over here! And I agree with Kent - you belong because you believe you do. There are no rules as to who's in and who's not.
I can relate to the stagnant feelings you have...it seems to just drift from one day into another without many changes. I guess I really am a drama queen....or is it getting close again-yup-just past the 30-day mark (hormone thing-sorry if that's TMI guys).
Another poster on another thread (Matilda - on um...infidelity I think) has been having some great talks with another poster LSM, both are dealing with recovering....good reads.
Well, there is one thing...a good thing...drifting is peaceful and serene....there is no yelling or fighting....and very little crying! That's a good thing. I suppose it's a trade off...no more (bad) surprises - and we drift along, and just live.
I know it can be frustrating tho - and being the self-labeled drama queen I am, for some strange reason I expect that my H will some day come to me and actually TALK to me. Not about 'hi honey how was your day' and the like, I mean really talk....about why, what led him to break his vow. I know why he 'came back' but I want HIM to tell me what got him there. For now, I live with the "I don't know" man. And that's fine, for now, because we really are moving along with things....as long as I go on like nothing ever happened....but wait - isn't that how it's supposed to be?
L
Nice digs tree..
Actually..I don't need a rubber band to stop me doing the OR talks..I have you
In 3 months I've instigated 2 & half ..but honestly it would have been more if I didn't have this vision of you going for 9 months with none AND the tension that went along w that.
I am not sure I will be able to do that but at least today I will.
Thankyou for you.
Duchess
[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Tree,
I finally had time to track your latest down. Thanks for your support. I'm still being as dark as I can be. There is new news on my thread about the days events. Could always use such valuable imput such as yours.
Thanks so much,
Sweet Orange aka Tangerine Girl
Hi ya, Treesa!
If I receive a certain V Day card which I saw w H's stuff then I will be moving over to this thread.
Do you still have the sense of walking on eggshells w your R? I don't feel that sensation so I guess that's good. . .don't need any eggy messes underfoot in the new digs, eh?
About OR talks. My H thinks things are moving in the right direction when we talk. Goes to show how much he missed the intimacy of communication w me. For us the OR turn out to be a benefical 180. He initiates them MOSTLY.
lily,
tree,
The dreaded OR talk....
I have really become scared and feeling like I could vomit at the thought of one of those. I have not initiated one since....oh....early Dec, and then it was more PMS and me going off the deep end than anything else.
I actually had this silly notion that at some point once I stopped initiating - I mean really STOPPED initiating, that he would step up and be the initiator. So far that has not happened...I have asked a few times I felt he was being distant and cold if there was anything bothering him - he of course said "no"...so I let it go.
I wonder if we'll ever have an OR talk again? I'm starting to think that if left up to him, we will not. Boy, I bet he'd be surprised to find out what's really going on inside my head...or then again, maybe he wouldn't....OR he just finds it easier not to be bothered.
It's been so long w/o an OR talk...ok, well maybe not THAT long, but for me, it's long...I really don't think I want to have one any time soon. I like my thoughts being just mine. I don't think anything he could say would change the way I feel...(unless he admitted to another A-whole different story). I guess since I shared SO much w/ H over the years, too much as it would turn out, that it became overwhelming for him. I am a pretty strong personality...been called "bossy" throughout most of my elementary school years...besides, like I said above, I doubt he really does want 'in' like I thought (and he said) he did.
I don't know whether to be saddened by this 'loss' or happy because I am ok with it?
L
p.s. hey Lilly-what did you do besides stop initiating that made your H start?
It's nice to see some new faces in this forum. Good work on your hard one victory. May they keep coming.
K
Treesa, got any spring water or coffee, I'm thirsty!
Me2. I don't know where my H got his ideas about what happens when one party asks for a D. I work at home and I get the idea that out there in the world there is a very Divorce Friendly Faction that must get together and talk about the bombs they've dropped or plan to drop. From the beginning I have NOT reacted the way he had it figured. While we were in critical mode he rode guard on me to make sure I was okay. The first day I was alone I fell apart (you try watching8 kids and go through this mess). I swore to myself that I would go through this w dignity, strength and competence. (C told me I was one classy lady). I never let him see me at my weakest or angriest or scardiest. We had some really good foundation talks. Then I encountered the cell bill terror. I called her H and found out some stuff. I was a bowl of jello when I came to the bb but H never knew. As time past,the DBers on the bb coached me and I made myself stop my ILYs and I don't call him on the phone to chat. If I had a question that would help me get off the emotional rollercoaster faster I would ask him . There were a few times when I overstepped and got burned but sometimes the truth hurts. When I realized he'd been dumped I also figured out that he was also probably MLC so it was natural to just back off and be supportive and not intrusive. He is just lately beginning to relax and seem to accept that my forgiveness and acceptance is for reals. Which makes it ripe for him to bring up OR. Mind you I refuse to ask if he's starting to care etc.
What is sweet to me is that I am seeing the old me bloom again. Our dance of conflict through the years was so inhibiting of the girl he was smitten with so many years ago. Would you believe that in H.S. I was voted Best Personality 2 years in a row? My compassion and nonjudgement is surfacing again and there are times when I feel bubbly. This just can't be due to my thyroid meds being balanced either. Naw. The man is curious. . . SLOWLEE SLOWLEE CATCHEE MONKEE.
Hey folks... so I tested my H a bit this past week. Not sure if this was good or bad.
I had not been feeling 100% and figured I had some kind of infection of the plumbing variety. My interest in sex was... rather low because of this. H.. slides into bed and the first night I had been fast asleep and he attempted to wake me up... I did the dead fish thing and he left me alone.
Next night he came to bed a little earlier but I faked it that night.
Next morning he initiated again and I said... not today Hon. ALL THE WHILE I am waiting for him to ask me WHY NOT? But does he.... NOOOOOOOOO
Worse... he did this petulant child thing and turned his back to me and wouldn't let me touch him. Is this pride? ego ? what? I saw the doctor on day three who confirmed my suspicions and I am now on meds to deal with that, and feeling a bit better already!
I told him about the infection after I got home with the prescription and two hours at the doc's office and he said nothing, nada, not a word... except for a little humour about the kind of meds I was on...
So... OR talk just on this point alone... not going to happen. I guess my little test - seeing if he would ask "what's wrong" bombed ... he didn't. and he won't. What IS that about anyway??? If he can't come down to what I consider a basic kind of thing... HOW will we ever make progress elsewhere? sheeesh...
So MEE define OR talk for me... what you are talking about doesn't sound like OR as much as every day communication. If ORs make him turn into the antiHusband... why would you want to go there?
I think, like me who avoids OR at all costs in spite of all my rambling right this moment.. there is a FEAR of not wanting to hear negatives about US... or HIM... OR=BAD so... we puke and lose weight and assume instead. also not good... but less bad than ORs Does THIS make ANY sense???
I find that talking ABOUT the relationship just doesn't do it for me... what's the point? How does it solve anything... It seems that action or change of action is more obvious...
I do want MORE... there are just times when I do NOT know what that "more" is??
So action instead of talk for now... My H is here.. he keeps coming around, he talks more, he wants to know where I am... most of the time... but he steps back a bit too... so I figure ( or assume?) we are moving forward.... sort of.
Andy what's with the ?????
Lil.... you're getting there too. coffee's in pot... help yourself. Sugar in the cupboard and cream or milk in the fridge? How about a two bite brownie? Or drop by the Duchess place for tea... although I hear rumours that the drinks trolley is coming around shortly
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: treesa2 ]
quote:
Originally posted by treesa2:
Andy what's with the ?????
I was just razzing you about the fact that we often come out on opposite sides of the OR talk issue, and it worked for lily.
As to YOUR foray into the OR talk arena...
Tree, I just gotta say that you approached it all wrong.
OR talks are not tests. You were trying to elicit a reaction out of him and it backfired on you.
I think it would have been better if you simply told him about the infection. If he feels akward talking about plumbing things, how do you think he felt when he found out that he reacted like a jackass without having this little bit of info?
As to the fear factor. You're absolutely right. None of us wants to hear negatives about ourselves or OR. You don't and he doesn't. And that's the barrier (remember the wall?) to the intimacy we want.
In theory, OR talks bring us close together. We all know that this is a load of krap. When we concentrate on the negatives, it does anything BUT bring us close together.
So, the way to handle OR talks is to keep everything above board, and to keep it short. The idea is to learn from it without generating a negative "aura" around the R.
Gotta go now. I don't know if I articulated this properly, but ya know I luv ya tree.
TTFN,
Andy
Hi Tree, Thanks for the post.
I think I actually have something to contribute here. I have been on the other side of the you are supposed to know what I want because you love me. I have to say as powerful as love is it has not successfully made me a mind reader.
I have been going through almost a year of "tests" without knowing what the right answer is. It hurts to be in this position. Not sure where you H is coming from, just speaking to what I feel.
I think it is a natural tendency to expect others to be able to understand our needs, but we have to tell them what they are to give them the chance.
I do really appreciate your support on my thread. Hope you don't mind me shotting you down.
Later,
SO aka TG
Howdy all-
I totally agree with the 'I'm not a mind reader' thing, I have told my H that many MANY times...but how does it go for the one, who used to be open and above board with feelings and emotions, to be in a place where as a result of that open-ness and above-board-ness, where it backfired and led the overwhelmed spouse to break his vows?
Did that make any sense? Because I knew my H could not read my mind, I made the fatal mistake of actually telling him how I felt, too much I now realize. He obviously could not handle it. I overwhelmed him emotionally. So, now that I have changed that, what the hell kind of OR talk could we be expected to have? A pretty shallow one at best.
Now that I don't offer the 'what's on my mind' info, he does not ask, which leads me to believe he just does not want to know. I believe he likes this much better...not to have to be burdened with all my crap.
I know how you feel about the testing Tree...much as it doesn't lend itself to any kind of relationship repair, we've probably all been there and done that, in some sort of fashion or another. Don't beat yourself up about it. It didn't work. Now you know. Don't do it again. (It always backfires/d for me) So what will work? I have NO idea. I used to think honesty at all cost...and open-ness and all that sort of stuff....well....I am re-thinking my position on that (read above-plus my last two posts, to Andy on his thread and Matilda on hers).
Anyway, sorry it didn't work out-but-did you really (REALLY) think that it would? I'm betting you knew it probably would not. Do I sense a bit of stubborn-ness here? Or is it that I can see it because I recognize it so readily in myself??!!
L
[ February 12, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
quote:
Originally posted by Me2:
I totally agree with the 'I'm not a mind reader' thing
I knew you were going to say that
Andy
I knew I could track you down. Lets see Blue Nose to the sky ...sniff...oh there she is.
I think the OR talks are not something to be avoided. For me they are not to be initiated. It seems that generally when she brings them up she is in a responsive mood.
Right now with a OM thing simmering I don't know if there will be any OR's for awhile. None the less, the acting as if has been noticed. "You act if nothing is wrong"
Well compare that to old action it appears to be 180 all over the place. Kinda adds a little discomfort to the big escape plans.
Do you think yours would respond to a few rounds of tough love? Or a live lobster down the pants? Or maybe one of our valley apples upon his crown? Lets see 10 paces, bow ready...fire
I promise to hit the apple dear!!!!!!!
I like your new place Tree. Took a little to find you but the crowd seems so upper class. Hope to be this way one day!!!!!
They say if you want to be a better golfer play with better golfers so.....I'll see you around!
Darmar
Hi threre Tree,
What is going on with you?
Later,
Sweet Orange
hey all thanks for keeping this little thread of mine semi active.
Little things happening and I keep trying to make the most of them.
Right now we are dealing more with issues around the 13 yr old she adolescent - enough to drive me to drink. I keep trying to DB HER!!
I am working hard to work with my H on working on our daughter- that raging hormonally charged I know it all and you parents just don't get it bopper- in our house... It's exhausting.
I am trying not to allow her to run our life but frankly I am working on finding ways to get it to bring us closer so that we are talking more. There are moments when I am sure it would be easier to just sell her to the gypsies. Oh gee did I just say that out loud!!!!
![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
A couple of odd things or not so odd. Mentioned to H when I got back from conference that my long standing conference hotel buddy was not as much fun as she used to be... actually quite dull - and she was making comments - not necessarily nice comments about my "loud" undies... and why would I wear such things... ( she knows about sitch and H doesn't know she knows... I missed a couple of meetings post bomb) She was actually quite sarcastic about the whole thing.
H said something like "well we know she likes to blend in and not be noticed.. and this more of same.. this is the kind of thing that her H probably finds boring about her... He's very likely stepping out on her you know... he seems the type" WTF???? So guys... do most men automatically think of stepping out on their wives because they find them boring?? ( who am I asking - the most loyal loving bunch of husbands and men on the planet! sheeesh... )
He mentioned a party from work this past weekend. It was to be a skating party. He didn't ask me if I wanted to go but I think there was an assumption there. As it turned out... we didn't go. Weather didn't cooperate - ice melted not skate-able, and he wasn't feeling well. Slept most of the day and into early evening and nothing more was said of the "do" HMMM first time he's mentioned parties from work in just ages... interesting change I think.
As for the rest... it's going. our daugther... she who drives parents nutbar - has qualifed for provincial championships in her sport... so we are planning to head to the big ego-centric city in a few months...
Now if I could get him to not be cuddly and intimate in just the horizontal position. The kissing comes and goes... but mostly not vertical... very odd I just keep trying to drive a wedge every now and again and keep the mystery up when I need to.
I also keep reviewing what's working and what isn't. I believe this is a key factor. Knowing that DBing NEVER stops... and that I am the one responsible for keeping things together. It gets hard every now and again. But just when I start thinking... enough already... some little things breaks through the negativity and we are off to the races again. Man it's work!
I also have to take more of my own advice and read more of the stories on this section of the board and try not to get involved with some many of the newcomers... which is tough! Have to get back to the gym too. That would be really good for the PMA never mind the butt and thighs!
I have already started planning the Second Annual ribs and sangria all girl fest for my birthday. I even asked H to hang around and barbecue because the girls loved his ribs last year.(Last year I told him the day of the event... for those of you who recall... Oh by the way Hon... having some girlfriends over... 35 women later...
) I think by the time I reach my 50th birthday this will be THEE event that the girls will be talking about. Will have it catered at some fancy place that year... I have a FEW years before I get there.
that's what's been happening in the Tree house in the burbs... for now...
tree
DBing the journeyman's way... blue collar ... sweatin it and workin it!
HI Tree,
Sorry to hear the 'do' didn't pan out this past weekend...keep your ears to the ground, something else will come up!
There you go with the vertical / horizontal thing again...wish I had it anyway here...oh well...H returns from his 'L O N G weekend' away tomorrow..maybe he'll have missed me. yeah right
DB the daughter....good idea...maybe you could write a book with your findings and send it to me in a couple of years when my D hits that age!
Keep up the good H DB...seems like your doing well!
FS
ps/ I'M ON TOP !!! Think this is one of the first times!!!!
[ February 20, 2002, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: FS ]
Hi tree,
Sounds to me like you and H are getting it together. Ya kinda found a common enemy
(13 yr old bopper).
But seriously, I think you’ve struck on something that works. You’ve managed to find a way of putting yourselves on the same team. It kinda reminds me of something you once told me (I think it was in an email), that an handicapped kid can either bring a couple together or tear them apart. I think that the same thing applies to “normal” kids, too.
IMHO, the key thing for you and your H is to find as many common goals as possible. Y’know. Put yourselves on the same team. Of course, he won’t look for things. As usual, it’s up to you, but once you’ve found a new common goal, he’ll buy into it. And you’ve just found another “thing that works.”
TTFN,
Andy
Ribs and Sangria. To die for.
I note your DBing the D. Good luck!
When our D approached 20 she announced that things were changing. She was accepted to study a semester in Greece; she entered into her first semi-serious R and just made us spin. I was hurtin' due to undx thyroid and used D's rebellion as the excuse to drink. Ah-h-h-h, good stuff. . .made me feel terrible afterwards.
Now that our bomb has caused a rift between H and D I can only sit back and pray that they eventually build a new relationship. H is a conflict avoider so it's not in his game plan to do the bridging. D is refusing to do the bridging; she maintains it's the parent's responsiblility to be the parent not the child in this situation. I can't drink my way through this one. <sigh>
I've come to the realization, also, that our great love for our D is harmful to our R. The times that D has come home from college have caused H to retreat into his zen zone even deeper. He doesn't know how to reach her and sees her ministering to her mama and it hurts. He even asks me one time if she cared that he hurt too. I said she did but that he really needed to talk to her himself.
I'd love to be hanging my hat in this forum by the summertime. I'd love for D to live at home and feed her right, hug her lots, and just give her love. She feels compelled to join the ranks of the wage earners and the job hunting while she's stressed over us is manifesting in headaches. I need to figure out a way to get H involved WITHOUT being the bridge. I need our R to have H's committment. I do go on. . .sorry.
What you said sounds familiar, lily.
I have to have one of the most observant 11 year olds on the planet. When my R started floundering, he told W to stop making me unhappy.
Observant, but not paricularly helpful.
Guess that's what made W think that I was placing us in an adversarial position.
It's hard to DB alone. Even harder if you have "allies"
Andy
You said it so well, Andy.
Last nite I was keeping quiet cause I had a bad headache. S kept checking on me, trying to find out what was really bothering me. H walked in one time when we were talking and gave me such a look. H requires my backing in dealing with our kids; they require that dad fix this mess. I require lots of R books. It's endless.
It's interesting what the kids observe isn't it?
Our oldest regularly says things to my husband about how he does or does not treat me. Things like "oh wow dad you're actually TOUCHING mom!!! Woo-hoo! It's about time!" Or when I am leaving on a trip she'll say things like "c'mon dad... kiss your wife.. what's wrong with you. Mom's going away for a weekend and you are like shaking her hand!" It's kind of funny and it proves my point to him that they do need see things and notice what is going on or not going on.
Point being - I guess that we need to be careful around our kids about all this stuff. What they see, what they assume, and what they don't see. They are usually smarter than the average bears too. How we make sure we don't put our kids between our Rs is the tough part isn't it!
tree
For me, the tough part was seeing it. My kids don't express their concerns about how I'm feeling to me. They go to W. So, what I hear is W telling me that if we were ever to D, she knows who S#1 would side with.
HUH? Where did that come from???????
From S#1. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!
'allo treesa and friends.....no intelligent comments for me to make here, though I agree the kids are pretty sharp. Always interesting to hear their version of the events at hand, they'll say things that wise adults fear to say.......
See ya later................BLUE
Ha Ha ha , my oldest (7) said the other night she wished tha twe could move to a place with no barracks or houses to rent so that blah blah blah...
Sharp!
BTW Tree I can't afford to buy lobster wew will have my pal supply it and the scallops!
So here's the thing... it's those little comments that make we wonder WTF is going on in his head and we MUST be headed for "together forever land" but ... like... will he tell me directly? I am probably doing ALL those things I tell others not to do... but ah well..
One day we were talking about work and H mentions how nice it would be to go work in another country. I say "Let's do it before kids don't want to go. It would be great for them too." H says... "forget the kids... they'll be long gone to university when we head out of here..."
ok... just the two of us... interesting...
Then a day or two ago... We were having a barf-fest in the house ... kids are sick upchucking. I have bad gag reflex I don't clean up... that's a dad job. So oldest one has puked all over bathroom floor, H is not home, I try to tidy up and end up running out of the bathroom next to puking myself. H comes home, I sheepishly admit to leaving clean up to him ( truly I can't do it!) and he says ... "Ya know darlin this just doesn't bode well for my old age does it!"
Now... I nearly zinged him by saing I'd trade him in on a younger model long before he got to that state... and bit my tongue realzing what bad DB it is and HOW that's nearly what he did to me. SO I just shot back.. PAID HELP from the old age security cheques will do barf brigade . He kind of snickers and goes away in disgust to clean up the yuck. Whatta guy!
H mentions he wants to see the Time Machine... ok... how about tomorrow night. He doesn't answer, but I can tell he's thinking about it. Much depends on the state of barf at the house I guess...
It's these pathetic little things that we think are messages... ARE they?
I am going to visit my very ill mom this weekend, then another week away on business. H sighs... he likes my mom I think most days, and is in big denial about both our moms and their state of health. His mom is 10 years older than mine too. Keep working on these positives even though for the most part... there is no real showing of feelings or emotions.
Keep on keepin on!
tree
Of course they're messages, tree. They're the kinds of messages that we get and ignore all the time
But not anymore, eh?
Seems like we all get to a place where we take these messages for granted and our spouses feel taken for granted. But we don't want to do that anymore, do we?
Nope. I don't think it's pathetic. It's sensitive.
Sorry, I forgot about your mom. Hope she's doing OK.
Andy
Oh TrEE, you're suddenly giving up the silent treatment? Say it ain't so. Must have been about the time I ran out of gumption to talk. But I do get what you're saying.
But what REALLY made me laugh was the request for spring water or some other saintly beverage. Perfect hostess you oblige but all I could think was...you'd just try to get me to drink more hairspray and smoke menthols. And then, when I was passed out you'd cut and dye me! I KNOW YOU WOULD!!!
You guys are cute. You have been for quite a while. I'm always telling people they need to track your butt down cause you got the moves.
I think your divorce (what divorce?) has been busted for a while. Excellent for ya. And yep, DB da teens. Hell, DB the checkout girl at KMart...wherever it applies.
Gotta fly now. Chillin Killian's (sp) for tomorrow...
Treesa,
Those little messages.
My H will be out-of-town all week on business.
This morning he and I talked about a proposed trip to Florida. It would be the first time in 22 years that I would close my daycare and it was hard to believe that H was serious when he would mention going down there. He tooked out the Day-Timer, blocked out 2 weeks (after asking my imput on the dates) then CALLED my sister to lock it in w her schedule. While on the phone w her, he brought up the subject of the property next to hers. We'd looked at it in Feb but I thought he was just shootin' the breeze about it. On the phone he mentioned to her that maybe we'll be able to look at some more property; we're serious about retiring there. Oh my God! That's 12 years from now; he's definitely talking about a future WITH me. To my elder sister, at that!
Mind you, he could not say to me that he loves me but this was a tangible indication that he is working on the R.
Andy suggested I hang my hat over on this forum. I'm starting to feel balanced and secure in our M. I gotta come up w my new db goals for this rebuilding phase though.
I've decided that I have covered all that I needed to say/ all that H willinly can say via the R talks. I'm planning to put them on hold for awhile OR deal w whatever H might need to share.
I feel like I did my personal forgiveness of the OW and that was really important to my sense of healing. I thought about buying a rose, snipping one of the thorns off it and sending her the thorn to symbolize that she was no longer a thorn in my side. LOL.
Anyways. . .I enjoy reading your boast and listning to your advice.
You know how you've encouraged buying new lingerie? I'm revamping my stuff now but am doing it a little differently and a little at a time. First, I very quietly, one piece at a time, replaced all my H's underwear. A couple of 'not his style' shirts are mysteriously losing buttons due to loose threads. I figure by the Florida vacation to have removed all the clothing he might have worn while around the OW. Then I'm going to Victoria's Secret!
So how long have I been at this now .... um bomb was November 2000 and it's now March 02... sigh... and I finally had a 'real kiss" in the vertical position!
Took 16 months!
But it was real.. I was heading home to see my mom ( who is not going to get much better It was a tough visit.) and with my low expectations I went to give him a hug good bye as he dropped me off at the airport. I figured he'd do his kiss on the cheek thing and wow... didn't he just lay one on me. A real kiss. It was wonderful. And sincere I believe.
Well you should have seen the dumb ass look on my face as I floated to the check in counter. I could have flown home without the plane the way I felt.
It hasn't happend again since I've come home. But I can only pray it will again!
So... talk about slowlee slowlee.
But then ARGH he annoys the hell out of me, cuz our dial up access isn't working ( for the home computer) and he won't use the 800 line to call and figure out what is wrong. He wants me to do it in the day time on my lunch hour. I say... call now is't 24/7 help! naw... you do it he says... This is a man who knows how to build a house from the ground up, but using a telephone is not something he likes doing... so I did get a tad cranky... but so did he and neither of us got our knickers in a knot ... so... love and strife all in a week! Hey maybe we're heading back to some normalcy... whatever that is! Right Fee?!
Lily... sounds like things are going slowlee slowlee back on track with you too. Just keep at it. He's coming around isn't he!
tree
still shovelling!
[ March 21, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: treesa2 ]
TrEE, what did he turn into?
You know, I think they could do a cable access show on you guys. I bet it would get good ratings.
I didn't get to catch the whole Oprah but I did manage to write down the main book title & author. The Unfinished Marriage by Joan Anderson. Thanks for the head's up. I got a renewal offer for the gift subscription to O and I'm gonna renew it.
And thanks for the peek into my thread. I don't mind my words being thrown back at me...heck, that's what I need!
So, you go back to whatever sublime thing you're up to. I bought a new Oster stand mixer that was less than 1/2 $ and more power than the Kitchenade I had my eye on (an extra bowl too). Dying to try divinity with it. Maybe I'll start with scones...
Well... it's been awhile...
Cable access show... snort snort... have some ideas for you Fee but.... shall save that for a private email ok?
So... another story...
Our neighbours - I'll call them Jim and Jane.... split last summer. Jane is the WAW... Jim was devastated at the time.. I gave him the DR book after my H told me about them. She's so alien - fits the patterns we see here all the time.
Jim and I chatted a lot because I told him about our sitch. He was very very surprised because of course, my H has said nuttin to no one! Jim and H play sport together one evening a week.
Well Jane asked Jim to leave... They have been separated since Sept and Jim now has a new female friend. He stopped with the sport because of the new romance and my H and "the boys" are quite PO'ed about the whole thing.
Jim and I have had several long talks about his sitch, I warned him about what I figured would happen with Jane and if I do say so myself, I read things pretty accurately. In spite of her "fling" with the cliche guy at work, she's been having doubts and calls Jim a lot and I believe trying to find a way back. But Jim is pretty much done and couldn't do the DB thing.
Well Jim is now getting hot and heavy with new LF - they are buying a house together... and Jane is pretty much out of the picture... in spite of the fact that she's a mess.
So.... H and I are talking this weekend and he mentions about Jim not being around and that his new LF seems to have him on a tighter leash than Jane ever did. AND H then pipes up and says... "ya know dear... he seems to have gone out of the fire and into the fry pan. I just don't think he's behaving the way he should!"
Well to think that about 16 months ago, my H was ready to go the same route with a new LF himself and somehow seems to have curbed that desire from what I can tell. He sure is not impressed with friend Jim even though Jim was the deceived party and all that... curious.
We spent a very nice Easter with friends. Saturday evening dinner was a tad tense... with the teeny bopper daughter in serious selfish ME mode driving us all a tad mad... However we seemed to have survived yet another of her hormonal outbursts... and keep hoping she shows a human side occaisionally!
This adolescent behaviour showed itself at church on Easter Sunday when again while at Mass I thought I was going to throttle her, and realized... oh gee I am in a holy place on the holiest day of the year... there's got to be a better way... and so... chose to ignore her bopper behavior... which seemed to work.
Prayers, hard work, zipping up with duct tape, supporting him whenever he does talk about work and stuff, letting him run the kitchen.. and just letting go... has really seemed to work for me and us. Slowlee slowlee... this monkey has his foot in the camp and in the trap....
tree
who actually has DONE a cable access show of her own.... really Fee... I'll send you the tapes! I was a cable star!
( ok.. I hosted a talk show talking to lawyers.... OMG... ever try to make civil litigation look interesting... never mind commercial law!)
[ April 01, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: treesa2 ]
So tree let's see if I got this right..ya gotta an H who doesn't mind cleaning up kids vomit
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif)
AND he likes to run the kitchen.
sigh..every girls dream..
duchess
[ April 01, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
well gee Duchess... when you put it like that.....
T
Haven't been by over in a while and thought dropping in would be a good thing. Wow the air here smells so good.
A real kiss. hmmmphhh have to say Im a little jelousbut remain hopeful at the same time.
So what do you think brought it on...time...Dbing...a combination. I used to think I was at this a long time, but Tree you got the er...er...er...fortitude (thats it) to hangi nthere. You are inspiring me. My bomb was really October, well barracks in July but "I want to be seperated came in Oct and finally the Q last month so wow!
See you here soon I hope.
Story time - so you know me and lingerie hanging on the line. I did laundry on the weekend and had a row of lovely coloured undies on the line next to the sports gear. This included two pairs of undies H has not seen me wear. As I was taking things down he came up to me, grabbed things out of my hand and asked me why I had a "pantie parade" on the line and what was I doing to him, and WHERE did these two little items come from??"
So we had a good laugh and I told him that he could hang his little items next to mine on the line.
It took more than a year for him to say a thing... but it DID happen... a whole year!!!
As I told FS on her thread, I think I might create some "pantie parade art" next time I do laundry and include his little undies as part of the landscape....
On another front... my mom, only 69 years old, is very very ill.
![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif)
We don't think she'll live much longer as I learned from a very dear nurse friend last night. I got off the phone from talking with her and cried a good cry. H heard me, and came in and held me. It's really interesting.. his practical side just kicked in for me. It felt to me as if he was awkward in how he needed to help me but he was there. We talked about how I needed to headed home again - how I had to get my new laptop fired up, the sales trip cancelled for next week and a lot of things. He's been supportive in his own quiet way.
My C warned me of "using" emotions either from my own sicknesses - flu and minor stuff; as well as issues with parents to drive how I feel about him or to "force" him into playing a part he may not be ready to play. He does the "right" things. Does he do them because he feels he "has to" or because he "wants to?" Who knows. But I do wonder about this.
Tree
Hi tree,
quote:
Originally posted by treesa2:
Does he do them because he feels he "has to" or because he "wants to?" Who knows. But I do wonder about this.
Has to? Wants to? It’s the same thing. Of course, he doesn’t want to have to. When one human being shows compassion to another, it’s completely voluntary. He would feel “obligated” to do the “right thing” for any good friend – even if it were to make him feel out of character. But, he’d want to do the right thing.
Don’t know if I explained this right, but all I’m saying is that for him to do something for you, on your terms, is a good thing. He doesn’t have to do anything he doesn’t want to do.
BTW, sorry your mom isn't doing better.
Andy
[ April 09, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: ANS ]
Hi tree -- thought I'd come visit you over here for a change. It's nice here. Not so desperate. I hope I'll be coming to live here soon.
I just wanted to tell you I'm sorry about your mother. It must be very difficult for you and I hope you know that we're all thinking about you and sending our love and strength.
I really like what Andy said -- about "have to" and "want to." That makes a lot of sense, but sometimes I know Fred has done exactly what he didn't want to do because he felt he had to. At least that's how he explains it to himself. So, as I understand what Andy's saying, it's really the same thing. He DOES want to because regardless of whether he wanted to exercise his choice, he did have one. And, wanting to do the "right" thing (i.e., obligation) is wanting to. Am I getting that, Andy? Maybe the problem is that they don't want to want.
Anyway, here's me --
-- wishing you well.
Take care,
wilma
(((((((Tree))))))))))...I am so sorry about your mom.
Hugs
Duchess
Yeah, Wilma. You got it. Glad I wasn't too confusing in my explanation.
Like you said, the problem is that they don't want to want. I was thinking of it more in terms of I want to be wanted. My W tries to make me feel wanted, but for all the wrong reasons. She often tells me that she's glad I make enough $$ to keep our family relativly comfortable. Though that is important, it just makes me feel like money-bags.
Sometimes, she empathizes with me. She says things like "It must be hard for you when I don't react the way you want (to affection). When she says things like this, it makes me think that she wants to want, but just can't do it.
That hurts too, and perhaps that's what tree feels is missing for her too.
TTFN,
Andy
thanks all... Andy... your distillation is good as always... and with Wilma's help... I think I am getting it.
Thanks all. I am hangin in.. I'll keep you all up to date. My hotmail is not accessible from the old laptop... settings changed... so I am behind in the hotmail. Ill get back in soon.
thanks for your hugs Duchess
Your thoughts and wishes are really appreciated. Know that it helps!
tree
[ April 09, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: treesa2 ]
hey tree girl,
you and your mother are in my thoughts.
just a thought from a knucklehead(that's me)about the want or obligation thing. men like to feel needed. we like to feel strong and in control. sometimes we put the proverbial foot in the mouth, but, ultimately we will do these things out of desire and want. even if it feels like an obligation, it is an obligation we gladly take on. it may not be verbalized in this manner, but, i have a feeling it is done for the right reasons.
l a w
Tree (and Andy)...
I have another take on the "has to.... wants to" thing. We all (the three of us, at least) have been at this for so long, watching them wander around in their own fog for so long that, at least in my case, it's so hard not to look for their "angle" when they do something nice. I agree with Andy on this, that they won't do anything they really don't "want" to, and they've made that pretty clear over the many months past. I catch myself questioning so much of her nice behavior, and wondering if she's setting me up, manipulating me into some corner. Then I remember that she is really a nice person in spite of the recent past. I realize I'm seeing the person I married shining through the alien's mask. I think when we notice them behaving like this, we need to put away our fears and suspicions and just "catch them doing something right".
And, man o man, 16 months?
Wow, that would be so hard to hold out that long. I can't possibley be worth the pain to hold on that long, can it... Why, I've only been at this, what, 15 1/2..... oops, never mind.
Good for you and your resolve and perserverence. And thank you so much for being my friend and my role model.
Sorry about your mom, tree.
z
[ April 14, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]
You’re right, Z. The longer you’re at this, the more analytical you get. Fille and other have been slapping me around for months about being overly analytical. But, in my case, the reason isn’t that I think she’s trying to “get something” out of me. I truly believe that when she does something for me (or anyone else for that matter), she does it for me (or the other person). My issue is that I’ve received so many conflicting statements that I don’t know if she’s saying something, or acting in a certain way to save my feelings, or is she being genuine.
If it were anyone other than my W, I wouldn’t care. But I do care and always will care about how my W genuinely feels about me.
15 ½ months, eh? How time flies (not)
TTFN,
Andy
Heya TrEE. Just thinking of you this morning. Know things are still rough where you are and thought I'd say hi and hope you're well and getting a sufficient amount of hugs and laughs where you can get them.
At my MILs viewing, I walked around with my fly unzipped for about 5 minutes. Hey, it broke the mood. No, I didn't do it on purpose! Really!
Hey Andy - If you do ever get sick of me for a while then please tell me. I know I can get intense
. And before you say it - no, I wasn't reading anything into your last post! I just know we've been Itchy and Scratcy lately.
LAW - Loofas and Waffles
No No No, Fille!!!! I could never get sick of you!!! I hope I dont't give you that impression.
You've given me a lot to think about. I want to respond to you on my thread, but been too busy at work to give your posts proper thought. You can rest assured that I'll rectify that sit asap
The short answer is that I guess, like Tree, I just want the occasional hug. I may seem too analytical, but my ultimate wishes are so simple.
Andy
[ April 20, 2002, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: ANS ]
well well long time and no post. A weird thing happened to me yesterday that makes me realize I am not quite as together as I had thought!
H has been working on a special project at work with other folks of course. There is a group of them. He brought home some paperwork and I saw that the EA is one of the members of the group along with the other woman who is his "confidante. " This confidante was told about his feelings for EA. The absolute freaky feeling I had at seeing BOTH women's names next to my H's as part of the work group made me see this streak of green that I haven't felt for awhile now.
I think many of my emotions are wrapped up in stuff since the death of my mom, but that would be fodder for the therapist I guess.
So here's my big question. After the project is complete - tomorrow - the bunch of them are planning a dinner out to reward themselves. I have a real problem with H going out on personal time for dinner with this small cast of characters which inludes his "confidante female friend" and his EA the GenXer gril who is not aware of his fantasy feelings. I am absolute sick about it. This really surprised me!
No doubt the dinner will happen while I am out of town on business as well as this seems to be my H's usual MO as well.
Work is work and project teams have to happen but does it have to include the post work partying that I am really freaking over. The entire group is small - five others plus H and two who are his "special" friends.
If this were any of you would you ask your Spouse to not go to this social event that is after work hours? And would you explain why you felt this way? YIKES sounds to me like an OR is coming on because of this. I SHUDDER!
I am debating about how best to deal with this one. I haven't been to the C in months now, and figure if I do go it's going to be another marathon session that I am not ready for as yet. The absolute high end emotion I am feeling has me just completely FREAKED these past two days!
so whaddya all say? and think?
thanks
Tree
slightly nutbar, but going in for manicure, pedicure and haircut to deal with things for now!
Tree,I truly understand why you are freaking out but let me ask you this. He still works with her right?..so this is dinner...a social occasion to be sure but if you stop this..think of the fall out.
The poor girl doesn't know he had a thing for her right? There was no PA right?
Maybe you could say tell him it bothers you but that you realise it's important for him to go.
At this point... up front..I don't like it but I dunno..... asking not to go might be pushing it.
Can you suggest that spouses go?
Duchess
[ April 30, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Hi tree,
I’m really sorry that you’re feeling this way, and even sorrier of the advice I feel obligated to give you.
You’re going to have to suck this one in. In your efforts to have a more intimate relationship with your H, you have to be someone who he wants to be close to.
What would the outcome be if you asked him not to attend? Would he understand and agree? Or would he resent your jealousy, go anyway, and withdraw from you. Think he might have more of a need to confide in someone? Who do you think that would be?
I also think that you’re right. It could lead to an OR talk. You know that I think there’s a place for OR talks, but you have to be ready, and set it up. I think you’re due for an OR talk, but not this way.
I think that if you’re not there right now, you soon will be in a place where you can initiate an OR talk. For you, especially, an OR talk should be a positive thing. In other words, your H’s mind must be in a place where he’s at least somewhat amenable to improving your R. At least somewhat willing to compromize.
I know exactly what you mean about the green monster hovering over your shoulder. Like you, I think I’ve got it together pretty well, and then BAM! Something like this happens.
Happened to me this weekend, but that’s another story.
So, my advice is to do nothing overtly. Treat it like it’s your problem. Think about it as a get together of people who were working on a project. Nothing more. And, y’know? That’s probably all it is.
Like I said, I hate saying this tree. It’s not fair. I don’t like it when it happens to me, and I don’t like to see it happen to you either.
Sorry,
Andy
Hi tree -- hope you're doing OK and that the "freak monster" is starting to retreat a little.
I'd have to say I agree with Andy, much as I sympathize with you. But think of it this way -- it's not likely that he's going to do anything other than have dinner because he isn't going to want to make a (bigger) fool of himself in front of those colleagues -- especially the "confidante." I don't think you have any specific to worry about in this particular instance. You can work on the longer-term issues with your C or on your own, if you're not ready to confront them yet.
Hang in there -- it's been a rough few weeks for you and all the emotions are raw and on the surface. It's going to take a long time for them to fully heal. In the meantime, I think the manicure, pedicure, and haircut will do you a world of good -- why not throw in a massage for extra measure?
wilma
Tree,
Sorry to hear of the loss of your mother. Mine died a few years back, so I know what you are going through.
Ok, here is my take. First peel yourself off the walls. And let's get down to what is really going on in your situation. H has a fantasy and he can't get out of the loop. Why? Who knows. One thought that I have is that you drive yourself nuts calling this thing an EA. Maybe you should look at it differently. An affair takes two willing parties. Maybe call her FC (fantasy chick, or maybe you can find another name using those initials). FCs sooner or later always show kinks in their armor. But you are fretting over something that IMO will never happen.
Tree, things seemed to be improving with H. Is that still going on? I think the big thing you have to ask yourself in all of this is whether or not you are contributing to this ongoing situation. DBing tells us when something doesn't work to do something different. What can you do differently? Do you fear his reaction if you do? Is it time to rock the boat? Are you two even communicating?
Let me tell what I am doing in my situation. My divorce is over a year old already. Little by little, I put a more of myself out. I take it very slowly and really don't know what the end of all of it will be. Is there a way to put more of yourself out there? Are you flapping in the wind or being too guarded with your feelings and emotions around the H? After all, this really isn't about dinner with a group of colleagues.
IMP
[ April 30, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: inmyplace ]
Heya TrEE. I'm kindof with Andy on the suck it up thing. Go get you some lovely smelly soaps and stuff. Have fun with yourself and the kiddies.
Let's face it, you've kept those ruby reds sealed THIS long...why shift gears out of the blue?
Ok, we got green, red & blue so far...
Anyway, take care of yourself bodacious flower. And keep allowing yourself the time to deal with everything that's got you shook up sweetie. Hugs and all that girly junk...
Hey Tree,
I gotta agree with the group on this one...
A wise one
once told me..." When one feels the need to do something, that's usually the best time to do nothing. "
That green eyed monster is trying to get you to react... don't do it.
Been thinking about ya... hope you are doing ok.
U
Tree,
First I agree with those who have said to let this go. I don't know if you gain anything on this as it is a dinner with colleagues. However, there is a flip side to doing nothing when you feel like doing something. Do something when you feel like doing nothing. It seems to me that you're just going along. There is still the question of whether or not communication is occurring in your house. Also, as I posted before, DBing does say to do something different. What are you doing differently? Try looking like hell for a day or two and see if there is a reaction...lol!
Tree, I have told you before at some time, you may need to shake things up. The reason for this is that I was guy who was in a funk for a number of years. My W leaving shook me up pretty damn good. Having said that I know you would never leave in such an awful way.
IMP
[ April 30, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: inmyplace ]
LMAO! Yeah Tree! Look like hell for a couple of days. That is the greatest 180 I've seen this week! Excellent post IMP!
Hey U - better watch it. We seem to have been online at the same time like in the old days...
Couldn't resist. Kinda want to play the devils avocate but can't do it. On one hand he might see you asking him to not attend as positive attention. Not likey though. Probably would see it as you trying to control him. Worst thing about me and my past is I used to see that as controling and her trying to tell me what to do and like a kid in a candy store would go out and do it even more to show that I could do what I wanted. Now I realize that it was all about her just wanting to be around me, not wanting me to not do something.
So swallow Tree. The good one is having something better to do. "Oh thanks for doing that tonight, cause I can now do this"....sorta turn the green monster in a different direction. Don't think it is a game myself, just turning negative energy into positive.
quote:
Originally posted by inmyplace:
One thought that I have is that you drive yourself nuts calling this thing an EA. Maybe you should look at it differently. An affair takes two willing parties. Maybe call her FC (fantasy chick, or maybe you can find another name using those initials). FCs sooner or later always show kinks in their armor. But you are fretting over something that IMO will never happen.
Great advice from IMP..start referring to the EA as "FC"..just make sure you don't put any more letters in that name though
Seriously,this will be over before you know it sweetie..and I do agree with Wilma in that your emotions are raw right now..so in the words of Andy..ya gotta "suck it in"
I'll email you today.
Duchess
[ May 01, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Good one, dar...
turning negative energy into positive.
[ May 01, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: ANS ]
And, yeah...
Remember waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in my first thread? You know, the one where you were my very first poster, and helped me a lot?
Remember how everyone was warning me to be careful about OM? Remember how I refused to call him OM - he's a MF?
It kept me going. Maybe it's semantics, but when you're talking to yourself (inside your head), semantics are important for your PMA.
Haven't thanked you for a long time, tree, but in thinking about how you helped me so long ago, I just wanna say again. Thanks.
TTFN,
Andy
Duchess,
Good point, about the letter, The FC really has no part in this. It isn't fair to call her names. And it is actually one of the reasons that I think EA is inappropriate as it implies a role for her.
ANS,
I will second the motion for dar's post. And yesterday, Zebra pointed a similar thing out in his thread. And it was a message that I needed to hear. That's why we support each other.
IMP
[ May 01, 2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: inmyplace ]
FC I like that! thanks IMP I sure do feel the "shake down" you gave me. It's been awhile! I hear your rants all the way here!!!
Thanks all very much. Andy... you are over taking me on the DB wise guy road. Shucks... no thanks needed... we are ALL here to support each other. There are days when I still sound and feel like a total newbie desperate for something that will work.
Ladies... breathing deep and slow and will not freak over dinner. New shoes sound like a good plan. It's spring now I think ( you'd never know it with the weather we've been having) Might call for some new spring colours in the lingerie dept yes?
IMP - moi? look like a hag? I am just NOT wired that way honey.
The arsenal of Mary Kay in my bedroom precludes that possiblity - never mind all the matching thingys... ... although... who knows it might be worth it eh? LOL!!! A definite 180!
My biggest problem is my totally over active imagination. I just GOTTA get those murder mystery books written. It would make MUCH better use of my "what ifs" then the pacing over the dang dinner with colleagues. All of you tlaking me down has been helpful.
Dar... even you're becoming a wise guy... impressive actually! thanks.
Suck it up I will... I'll keep you all posted. It is soooooooo appreciated.
Tree,
Well, yes, I have been known to rant, but don't know if you have heard - there has been a kinder, gentler IMP in the neighborhood!
And yes, I would find it hard to believe that you would allow yourself to hag out. Your H has it too damn good!!!
And you go girl with the shopping! I found even for those of us of the male persuasion shopping is a good thing, especially now that I can buy off the rack of any department store whose name doesn't end with "BIG and Tall"!!!! Silk boxers, is that what we get!
IMP
[ May 01, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: inmyplace ]
Tree, get yourself some hot pink shoes and paint your toes to match! And instead of murder mysteries, how about romance novels? I'll bet you've got a million stories!
wilma
quote:
Originally posted by treesa2:
There are days when I still sound and feel like a total newbie desperate for something that will work.
Do you remember the days before the bomb? All ya had to do was go with the flow - secure in the knowledge that your R was bullet proof.
Why did that serenity have to change into desparation? Even more to the point, how do you get the serenity back?
Rhetorical questions, tree. I don't expect an answer from you or anyone else.
But I think it's possible to get it back.
Wanna race?
Andy
One day I check and nothing new, and the next - BAM, the world has turned upside down! Wow - lots of good posts for you...I agree - the dinner thing is only dinner. Doesn't happen every week (like with some people I know!
). And trying to stop him from going...is like telling your teens to stop talking on the phone...just gets worse.
Why start?
Hope you had a good day - did you do something different with the do? Maybe some spikes?
God this must be making you nutbar.
Hold on babe, ride it out. You will prevail, and things will be fine. Too bad you will be away on biz, cuz if you were home you could just "go out with friends", and get home after him.
It will be fine, you will too. You know what to do, so do it.
z
Howdy-
While I do agree with everything y'all have said, there is one thing you might want to consider....gonna sound strange...but here goes....
What about his feelings? You say the pseudo-EA-more aptly termed FC is over, right? At his own admission? So...perhaps a good way to give him the subtle hint that this 'sorta-kinda' bothers you is to ask him how HE feels about it (this is of course toning it WAY down from the way you actually feel). I know you are not ready for a big BIG OR talk, but maybe y'all two could sit down over a glass (or 2) of wine and have a nice 'chat' about it. Just ask him if he thinks he'll find it strange to be around those 2 women....and I dunno-maybe say something like 'gee honey I wish I could be there to support you' or 'gee honey I bet this will be weird for you'...or something like that.
I think it will let him know you are thinking about it, and while you do not want him to know that you're actually freaking out about it (green-red and all those other colors), it will at least put it in his mind that you are AWARE-and certainly NOT jealous....of course not.....as if!!!
BUT-I think if you put it in the perspective of
'concern for him and his feelings' it will do you better than telling him outright that YOU'RE the one feeling weird.
Just a thought....what do the rest of y'all think?
L
Uh, tree, maybe Me2 has a point... (and on top, so that counts!!)
I'm a wimp when it comes to this kind of confrontation, but if it has to be done (and sometime I believe it does) this is a good way to consider it.
Ducking and.... well you know....
z
[ May 04, 2002, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Zebra ]
hey Zed and Me... it's been awhile.
Hmmm empathasiing has its points that's for sure.
To be honest.... I DON'T know for sure that his feelings for the FC have disappeared or if he's jus buried them. For all I know the "friend" confidant could be working to throw them together. I know..... assumption!
Having said that the idea Me proposes ain't half bad.
Had two birthday parties yesterday. The little one knew what she wanted to do, as did the older one. Many thought I was completely gone round the bend but they pretty much ran themseslves. Mom just shelled out the bucks H did his share! They are both happy.
Off to the east today. Will send H email while away.
Thanks again for keeping me on the straight & narrow.
good week all!
tree
Tree,
Time to get back to earth. As for confidant working to get them together, what does that matter. If that were the case, it would have happened already, IMO. Obviously, H may still have feeling for FC, but then there is nothing you can do about it. And in all honesty (and again IMO), FC has zero interest in him.
In regards to me's idea it is good and well intentioned, but watch it. It seems like more of the same. You have been quite passive throughout all of this. My W wrote me a few notes notes. I read them. She never followed them up. What is your strategy after that? What do you do when your H ignores them? Only once in my marriage can I think of a time when the W said, ok pal, enough of that shit. It was the only time I listened. Well, I did listen one other time. Of course, this was after she left me.
It is obvious that you are unhappy with the way things are going. But your H is also unhappy. Why is he so unhappy? He has an excellent wife and great kids. It goes beyond you. The real problem is himself. This is something that I have an idea from my life. I was with a woman that was my dream. Why couldn't I be happy with her? It is simple. I wasn't happy with myself.
IMP
Tree-
2 birthday parties in one day?! You're a braver woman than I...I wimped out and took the oldest son to Chuck-E-Cheese for his 7th a week ago...
At any rate, I agree with IMP in that even bringing it up the way I suggested may be too way off from what y'alls norm is right now. You just have to weigh your odds for and against. I'm the type that can't keep my mouth shut (as y'all well know, huh!!) but I have learned that certain phraseology allows me to put a bit different spin on something that makes it less 'attack mode'....know what I mean? It's all in my tone of voice, the way I say things-not really what I say, but how I say it. It's helped a great deal and allowed me to still bring up the difficult issues (that I just can NOT keep quiet about) but it doesn't put H on the defensive so easily.
Does any of this make sense?
Ultimately you will have to decide...I think you already have actually....
Have a good trip-
L
p.s. I was on TOP, I was on TOP, I was on TOP, for my last post!!!! Yipee for me!!! (I like it on top.......quite a view)
oh, p.p.s. I really don't think your H's friend is trying to 'get them together'....that would be a really crappy thing to do....she would never have the nerve....or at least she better not.
Me2,
I am definitely not one to keep my mouth shut, especially now. I told my former Mrs. (not to mention her mother, too) in no uncertain terms what I thought about her and OM. We still do many things as a family. The problem was that I waited too long to confront situations that I didn't like. Communication is the key.
Humor me here. I do believe that if tree were to say. "ok, fellow, I am tired of your nonsense, you can leave," see how fast he comes around and drops his nonsense. Another and perhaps less threatening method is to ask him why he is unhappy with his life. Tree is a great woman. Any man should be happy to have a woman like her. This whole situation has never made much sense to me.
IMP
I agree Tree is a great women. And if you want to stay east Tree don't get back o nthat flight. Lovely job for you down her at Acadia.
Hmmm man in uniform too
I have been thinking a lot lately and am guilty of something that I am not sure is pertinent or not. I have focused this whole time (11 Months since I checked out) on showing how I have improved, on the importance of our marriage for the kids etc....
I haven't spent a great deal of time focusing on what the benifits would be for her. She wants out or wants something (I don't think she knows) because she wants to be happy with her. So maybe it has to be about them. What is it that they're missing that they need or want. Of course communication could solve the whole dilema but who the heck knows how to communicate. If we all did most of us would not be in our sitchs. Well personally anyway.
In my case she readily acknowledges my changes but I don't believe feels them. If she did the comment about if I was in a bad way you would be nowwhere to be found illustrates that. And OMs (that testing of the waters) would be non existent.
Hope to link this week Tree, but if not June is good!
darmar,
Undoubtedly, what they want is what they want, but do they know what they want!!! My former Mrs. has been divorced for a year. If she is still with OM, my children has yet to meet him. So does she want that. If she isn't with him, it makes sense.
As for communication, we obviously didn't communicate well, but then again how can one read someone else's mind. I can only think of one way, ask. I know for me there are things that would still need to change about me before any real R can happen. So there is no need for me to approach any OR with the former. Where do you stand in all of this? Where does tree stand? (hey, are we dear hunting!)
darmar and tree, is there any communicating you can do?
IMP
Hey, tree.
Is IMP suggesting an OR talk??????
Andy,
I am suggesting something. It seems to me that tree's situations just goes. It is difficult to even say that it goes along. Reality, if properly defined, can go a long way.
IMP
IMP you are so right and I should be on your post shouldn't I ...sorry.
What I mean with the communication is I believe it is up to the sender to make sure the reciever gets the message. So asking for clarifacation in my mind is good communication. It tells the sender you are not getting what you want to say across here, try again please.
And your right they don't know what they want. My W and I had a phone sorta OR tonight and it sucked. I asked what she wanted. She said I think a divorce. I said no really what do you want? She has no flippin idea aside from telling me what I want or think. I corrected her in that citing she should ask what I think cause only I know that.
None the less right agian about reality. Reality is Tree and H have a marriage despite the condition of same. Which is a much better place to build from then where I am at. I am convinced, despite not knowing Tree's H that this is a result of her efforts. (thats a compliment Tree).
Are we not all just looking to find a place that is good for everyone. I said to W tonight this is all very sad. She replies it was ALL sad. So that goes to where her head is.
DB DB DB I believe!
Go Imp!
darmar,
That is an excellent point that you make about the receiver not getting the message. There is more than one way to communicate. In my case, verbal communication is not within the realm of effective transmission devices. Actions are. That is because if things will work out with the former Mrs, she needs to see concrete things.
It is up to all of us to seek that which works for us. I must say that I have probably had more ORs than many who come to this board. Also, I did my share of dishing dirt. I feel that the ORs were good. I received information as to the problems even though much of what I said seemed to be dismissed. She still hangs around and she still feels a connection.
The communication thing has always been a stickler for me when coming to this BB. Too many people think that ORs should be avoided at all costs. But as you said - DB, DB, DB. One of the major tenets of DB is to do something different. And since most of us never had any real ORs, that might be something different.
IMP
Hi Dear Treesa,
Passing by w coffee cup heading toward empty.
It's hard trying to figure out what to do. You remember how I'd do the OR talks even when Duchess and you cautioned me to avoid them. Yes, I got emotionally burned a couple of times but I needed the data.
Then H started talking a bit then a bit more. There's one subject we have let slide into our past history. (I bet you're guessing the PA---Bingo!!!!). I can handle this because I KNOW he has finally moved on. It was the not knowing how he regarded her that kept triggering my emotional roller coaster re our sit. I realize that anothere person 'in your marriage' is only a symptom of the health of your marriage. Yet I had to know that the contamination was gone before I could stop picking at the scab, so to speak.
I saw in H's log that he'd said good-bye to OW. I made myself wait forever, hoping he'd tell me the scenario, but that didn't happen. I finally asked him , "Have you moved on" and kissed him silly when he said, "Oh I forgot to tell you that I closed that door one day last month. Wrote it down in my log at work; I'll show you. . .etc."
Big sigh...time to move on to another section that needs piecing. That turned out to be the eggshell caution. I decided I didn't want to live my life like that. Turns out H was waiting for me to relax.
You and your H can't read each other's minds. Just ask him for a clarification re status of the FA.
Need more coffee. . .c ya!
quote:
Originally posted by lily:
It's hard trying to figure out what to do. You remember how I'd do the OR talks even when Duchess and you cautioned me to avoid them. Yes, I got emotionally burned a couple of times but I needed the data.
Ah yes… the good ole OR debate. Your OR talks served you well, Lily, and mine served me well too. Does that mean they were painless?????
But, despite the pain, they worked. It’s a matter of timing. I started OR talks when I thought I was making progress. It hurt to find out that I hadn’t, but I needed to know that. Later, we had more OR talks, and we’re slowlee progressing to the point where we don’t even need ‘em. At least, that’s what I hope is happening.
Andy
Andy,
You are right. Those ORs can hurt. I know the last one I had did. On the other hand, I told her a lot, and put myself on the line. And she still stays relatively close. Seems like it could be of value.
IMP
It depends when you have the OR talk.
At the beginning of the whole mess immediatley post bomb it's a HUGE mistake.
If you have an H like Lily's who committed early on to NOT divorcing AND working on the M..then OR talks are OK.
If you have an H like mine and many other's on the BB then OR talks can be DEADLY.
My H has made it clear he is not working on the M.
What I have learned is that the rules are not written in stone.
If I were to say to my H now.."so where do we stand?"..the answer most likely would be something I didn't want to hear.THEN what do I do with that info?
I do have OR talks yes..mostly initiated by him ..but they are NEVER "Where do we stand" talks. Sometimes I get the answer to "where do we stand"..but it may be in a round about way.
Pre bomb but post A discovery I "OR talked" my H to death..he hated...... it so for me not initiating OR talks is a 180
I don't tink you can say OR talks work or don't work.Each case is different...that's all.
Duchess
[ May 10, 2002, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
The value of OR talks depends entirely on your current sitch. There are no two alike, and even within the context of a given sit, things change.
My first (pre-DB) attempts at OR talks were futile. Destructive, in fact. They were tantamount to begging/pleading, and we all know where that gets you.
Round 2 was an attempt by me to find out where my DBing had got me. That was the killer because for all appearances, I was no further ahead.
But while painful, it was not destructive. Like IMP, it hurt, but it was informative.
From there, they got less and less painful as W's reactions got less and less knee-jerk-kick-him-in-the-stomach.
Now, the're not only almost painless, but ironically, not as necessary.
That's my OR-talk history in a nutshell.
Your milage may vary.
Andy
Exactly..so each sich must be taken on it's own merit.
Part of it I believe is that as we use DB ideas to improve our listening skills and we begin to see things clearer we armour ourselves for the OR talks..we don't react as much..our spouses don't react as much and so they are not as painful.
I think Michelles "no OR talk" edict is a way of protecting us during the first few weeks of "post bombness" but as we progress on our journey we can tweak and adjust as needed.
Duchess
[ May 10, 2002, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Hi TrEE, here I go again sounding totally unlike myself but also going against the tide (that has got to do something weird to the universe
).
Anyway, I think initiating OR talks when you haven't been while you are greiving for your mother is totally NOT a good idea. No way no how. Emotions are just too raw.
Take care of TrEE. Let him take care of himself. In time maybe you'll see what you're ready to do. I've already tossed out from my own experience but a) it was for later and b) what works for me may not for you. Now just doesn't seem to be the time to push any of it.
God bless you sweetie. And keep taking care of yourself. Really.
Phoe,
A little devil's advocate here. When emotions are raw, it could be the perfect time.
IMP
[ May 13, 2002, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: Phoenix ]
[ May 13, 2002, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: inmyplace ]
Happy Mothers Day Tree.
I hope today finds you well and a lapse in the "stuff".
Talk to ya soon.
Will this get me on top
[ May 12, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: darmar ]
My, my, my... a girl goes away for a bit and the thread gets action!! Thanks all.... things happen durinig a week away from home.
Lily.... LITM... I like that a lot. Makes good sense. What else can we do?!
Mother's Day... a little tough.. but H really made it nice day. Three red roses... (haven't had roses, never mind red, since forever.) breakfast omelletes (with the left over lobster I brought home from business trip), a little wine, AND dinner too, post-hockey game of course!
Never mind how we started the day....
Another thing came up H mentioned the day before. FFC - female friend confidante at his work who knows about his FC and apparently condones it - has some work for my H in the off season from work. He does this off season. I really have a problem with this, and as nice as it would be to take her money, H spends enough time with her at work during the year and spending more time with her in summer doesn't cut it with me.
In an OR inspired sort of way - I have already suggested in a backhand way that his doing work for FFC - a little over my boundary line but ever so subtely that I'm not sure he got what I meant.
Is it unreasonable to just out right TELL him that I would prefer he NOT take her measly job (we won't starve if he doesn't do it that's for sure.) for him... it's a self esteem thing more than anything... validation of his many skills nd talents... my C's thinking anyway. I don't think I can let this one go. My feeling is FFC should just find herself someone else to do her little jobs and my H really needs to focus on stuff at our home. But to say it in such a way that he doesn't get totally ticked. I've NEVER drawn a line over his friends or colleagues... ever... but I'm totally NOT comfortable with this one, especially his 'best friend' status with this one and what they talk about.
Geez... can just imagine IMP on this one!
I still need to re read all your thoughtful comments and digest it all.
Need to start a new thread... hmmmm and call it what???
more.... later eh?
tree
Well, well, well, look who is home!
Hi tree. We had a little fun here while you were away. Of course, I have a warped concept of fun.
Glad to hear your Mother's Day was nice.
Didn't remember that FFC had condoned FC in H's mind. That doesn't say too much for her. And I can't blame you one bit for you not wanting him around her. Obviously, H has told you she condones it, so (knowing me) you won't be surprised to hear that maybe this is a good time to tell him why you don't want him there. Does FFC condone his fantasy or the idea that H would want someone other than you? (Maybe, FFC has a fantasy crush on H. - Phoe, that is the type of thing that justs pops into my head!) I don't think I like FFC!
What exactly is the nature of the work to do with FFC? And what (other than the obvious) do you need for him to do at home?
Ultimately, you have to decide what it is that will work for your marriage. But, I am a firm believer that there is no time like the present.
tree, the reason that I think the way I do in your situation is because I knew a guy once who sat on the fence until his marriage was over. The pain that he felt over that (and still feels) is excruciating. Only one time can I think of a situation where his wife told him to do something in no uncertain terms and he reacted as she wished. Everything else fell by the wayside. He lived in his own little world for almost 15 years. And when he finally showed signs of coming out, she was gone.
One other thing, if you get a chance to visit with me someday off the board, I would like to ask you a few software industry questions.
IMP
Y'know, tree. This sounds soooooooooo much like the evolution of my comfort zone with W's MF.
I've had to learn to live with it. I don't know if you will, but it's a possiblity.
In any case, you're going to have to decide if you can live with it or not. If not, then don't beat around the bush.
If you effectively Drop hints, it comes off as manipulation, guilt trips, emotional blackmail. The other possible outcome is that he won't even catch on.
If you're going to tell him how you feel, just tell him how you feel. But, it's all in the wording.
Can you say it without sounding accusatory? Something like, "I know that nothing's going on, but I can't shake the bad feelings."
TTFN,
Andy
quote:
Originally posted by ANS:
If you effectively Drop hints, it comes off as manipulation, guilt trips, emotional blackmail. The other possible outcome is that he won't even catch on.
and
Something like, "I know that nothing's going on, but I can't shake the bad feelings."
I agree 100% with Andy.
It sounds like you feel very strongly about this..so go for it. Use "I" satements.Don't get defensive..keep it simple
Duchess
[ May 13, 2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Hmmm kinda fence sitting myself on this one. Telling your feelings is a good thing but making sure they are received the way you send them is probably the most difficult thing people can do. Even those in solid healthy relationships.
I kinda like the approach ... this comming from Mr Obsessive ... of deciding and stating this is where Im going. Thats it. No it would be nice if you joined us on the journey, no I wish you felt the same way, no I hope it is what you want. It is kinda like an ultimatum but more empowering because it is really just what you are doing. And it doesn't carry the ultimatum "can't change my mind" mantra.
Of course this is from a guy coming off a high. Bet those lobsters were yum yum yummy!
You know, I've always been impressed that you actually have boundaries. I've never been good at that, and certainly not at enforcing those I make. About the closest I come is to let her know when I begin to feel uncomfortable with a situation. I believe it's a little less confrontational that telling her I'd rather she doesn't do something (but I have done that in the past) and frames it more from what I need, my desires, than from sounding insistant and controlling.
In tend to agree with Andy "Something like, "I know that nothing's going on, but I can't shake the bad feelings." This tells him you have an issue, and that it's your issue, and allows him an opportunity to attempt to calm your concerns.
z
Thank you Treesa.
Your encouragement means a lot. I'll get there--- cause I'm getting it. Sometimes the getting it causes pain until you get there.
I bought some of those pumps w the open toes. I plan to paint my toenails hot pink (so not me).
H wants to take me bra shopping. He used to want to do that and I wouldn't spend the money on me. After the bomb, he didn't want to do that. At Christmas I mentioned going to Victoria's Secret and he said I could if I wanted to; he didn't care. I went to another store by myself. Bought some thingies and wore them. H noticed. He noticed more and more. I told him I was going to dress for him. That pleased him.
TrEE - Several of us have been asking you to try talking to him about all of this stuff...for a long long time. You were scared to remember?
So...good first step in addressing things. Now...what would be a good way to get the point across with the most likelihood to be successful? You already know this I'm sure but aren't too sure about it for whatever reasons.
I also wondered...is one of your worries that maybe if he has to "give something up", that you may then be expected to reciprocate? And you aren't so sure you want to give anything up?
Just curious. Anyway, just remember that regardless of what you do, you will most likely get enough static to make you wonder if it's worth it. It is. Who knows? Maybe he'll totally surprise you. In a good way.
Happy (late) Birthday to TrEE
who's not afraid to show KnEE
Don't sweat that insensitve confidant k-mart bag....
Roll around with your HubEE
Ok, it was pitiful. Just pitiful. But I bet you are laughing and in danger of mis-swallowing whatver it is you're trying to drink.
And THAT's what's important dahling!
OK, here we go:
Happy birthday to Tree;
Don't we know you love Phee;
If you only lived closer
I'd be on bended knee!
Mmmmmmmmmmmm..............well, I have had a cupla rum'n'cokes
Happy Birthday sweetie
Happy Birthday, tree! Getting better by the year, right?
wilma
Happy Birthday to Tree
She's the Queen of DB
And I am the Duchess
Happy Birthday to Tree.
Duchess
[ May 17, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Duchess ]
Hi Tree,
It's been a while. Mother's day seemed very nice for you. Hope you are doing well. And I guess a belated Happy Birthday is in order
See you around,
TG
what was i thinking? i miss mothers day and your b-day. maybe that's why i'm here
belated yada yada's.
miss ya, but, thinking of ya often.
l a w
oh, and please tell phee "it's a hundred and six miles to chicago. we have a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sun glasses."
"hit it."
There's two crazy guys out there. One wants plain white toast and the other wants a whole chicken...
Ok... Blues Brothers... but can't get yours Phoe... give me a hint.
Hey Tree girl... Happy belated b-day... hope it was good for you.
U:)
U! i'm so dissapointed. all i need say is..."we're on a mission from god."
"you can't lie to a nun."
hey guys...long time.
l a w
Hey, everyone. tree has moved on up. You can now visit her at
piece by piece like slowlee slowlee