I know it's not the case for all or even most here but what if the w.a.s WAS right to leave. What if they really weren't rewritting history or seeing things through the muddy glasses of an affair but were just starting to be honest with themselves and you the LBS. How can piecing and DB work in that case. How can you fix something that never really worked to begin with.
What if you suddenly realize this to be true and find that the once was doesn't want to be honest anymore and has just chosen to dig there heels in and stay for the sake of it without any true effort other than residing in the same dwelling?
LL
Love is a choice. . .you make it a priority. . . you feed it and it grows, you starve it and it withers away to nothing.
Love is a choice. . .you make it a priority. . . you feed it and it grows, you starve it and it withers away to nothing.
Yes but what if you as the original LBS were the one who knew it needed feeding still know it needs feeding but your once was doesn't seem to understand that but is no longer walking. WTH do you do then? Can you really water a dead plant and bring it back to life? I'm not talking about the plant in my kitchen that can sometimes look like a total gonner but give it some water and ta da a couple of days later nice shiny green leaves appear...I'm talking dead brown rotted leaeves moldy soil...how can you fix that? Especially if the plant doesn't seem to give a rats arse.
LL
I believe love is a choice. My husband believes love is a feeling. He backs this up with saying that he has no sexual attraction for me and can't "perform" because he feels this way. He says if he chose to love me, it wouldn't change that physical action. What is crazy to me is that he never had any problem in that are until he decided that he no longer loved me.
Anyhow...what I dont' understand is that in his mind he doesn't love me. He has chosen not to love me. So right now, everything I do seems to pointless. We just live together as roommates...and that is all.
Sara
The only thing that I can hold on to right now is that love can be ressurected and that it will be.
A whole bunch of years ago (15) I "fell" out of love with my husband in much the same way he has with me right now. I almost lost him and the life we had made together. I chose to stay and chose to rediscover my love for him.
That's why I know there is hope. Love can be resurrected. I know it, have experienced it. . . now, he just has to believe.
Of course, I also realise that this is something I can't control. All I can do is keep on loving him and try to do the things that make him want to be with me. . . not doing so well in that department right now. A few steps forward and many steps back.
(I have a thread in the MLC forum if anyone would like to give some advice. . .please!)
You just be friends. There's "love" in friendship.
Also, you have to water yourself (i.e. love yourself). You can't depend on any spouse or OP to constantly provide that.
I think if there are no more kids in the house you have less to lose, but if there are underaged children that's too big a gamble. You lose too much. No OP can make up for losing the relationship with your kids (Being a part-time parent is NEVER as good as being a full-time parent. I don't care what anyone says... in doesn't come close....).
A WAS is never right to leave when there are kids involved.
Because when it comes down to it, men or women, relationships, boyfriends, girlfriends, marriages, etc... can come and go, but there's no such thing as "divorcing" one's children. Certainly one can destroy that relationship, abandon their kids, give them up for adoption, choose not to have any relationship with... but when it comes down to it, one's children (like parents), are usually the only "sure" relationship one can depend on.
One should never give that up for a "maybe." Also, if there is some other great relationship out there, if OP or a different life is "meant to be," they will still be there after the children are gone. And if not... well, then it was never meant to be.
I understand the not to leave for an OP or even for the possibility of an OP. Also walking out and "abandoning" your children is not OK.
Your post implies that if there are children you should by all means stay in a loveless marriage.
is it better to stay in a loveless (not even friendship) marriage just because you have young children.
Wouldn't it be better for the children if both parents were happy living healthy lives even if being seperate from each other is required to do that?
what if one partner doesn't really spend much time with the children already and that would be the parent who visits and not the main caretaker. Being divorced or seperated may actually provide the children with a better relationship with that parent because they will spend time with them regularly.
I suppose I should have been less vauge with my original post. I am not a WAS, I was a LBS whos was had an ea (at minimum 2.5 years long may have even been pa but never admitted to), was adminatley wanted d, 9+ month seperation, was returned and we are not much more than roomates and he interacts minimally with the children.
It's easy to say...make yourself happy but when you are making yourself happy it's hard to not notice the fact that you really don't have a r with your spouse and not question wtf it's all for.
LL
Hi LL,
I'm struggling with this question too, although I haven't been dealing with it for very long and am trying just to be patient.
But W says she just doesn't want to be M, and her sister told me she didn't think W knew how to balance personal ambitions with a R. What you focus on expands, right? So W is expanding her discontent with being in any kind of R. Doesn't seem like something to fight for.
But I'm fighting nonetheless. lodo
This is just my thinking but if I was in your marriage I would either go for a legal sep, which would more than likey lead to a divorce, and for me it would be for the kids.
I think there is more damage being done to them now on how a marriage should be like, think of all the FOO issues that are being form right now?
Your marriage is the marriage your kids are going to gravitate to because this how they learn to relate to the opposite sex or learn what to expect of there mate.
I grew up with a crazy sister I think she is bi-polar or just plain evil, and you know who I picked as my mate a male version of my sister, because basically I was trained as young girl that I nor my opinions did not matter.
I'm all for saving marriages but some can not be saved by just one doing all the work why the other just sits on the couch like Al Bundy.
Whats to say that he is just waiting for the kids to graduate to walk out the door?
I have a question for you? Does he suffer from depression?
What does he do when he gets home from work? Does he interacts with the kids when they ask him to play games with them or does he just blows them off?
Whats to say that he is just waiting for the kids to graduate to walk out the door?
That is very possible...beeing a child of parents who were going through their D as I was getting married I can tell you it probably would have been better if they had done it while I was young, it's not like I didn't see it coming anyway.
I have a question for you? Does he suffer from depression?
I don't know if it's depression but he does seem to have anxiety issues and has been on meds for it off an on for the past few years.
What does he do when he gets home from work? Does he interacts with the kids when they ask him to play games with them or does he just blows them off?
He gets home, says hello to the dog, then the kids, then sits at the computer checking the weather or sports, takes a shower, eats (sometimes with us) then either goes to bed or to a couch to watch sports or news and falls asleep. The kids don't ask him to play because he just doesn't.
All very good questions. I have struggled with it all, too.
As for the "what if the WAS was right?"... I don't think there's a right or wrong. It's about the willingness of both partners to try to get back what drew them to each other in teh first place, and build a new M from that. Both partners need to want this.
As the LBS, you can't control if your WAS wants to work on the M or not. What you can control is keeping a sense of balance and peace within. That is where the working on yourself thing comes into play. I also think that by giving the WAS some space to think through what they wants helps, too.
IN your case, it sounds like your H is living at home with you, but there's not much there. I've been there, too. And this is when all the above stuff gets really hard.
As for the thing with the kids, I think having kids is an additional motivator for working on a M. I don't think it's a reason to stay M if it's not a good M.
In my case, physical separation was absolutely necessary for my H and I to get back on track. My H had an A with OW and tried to come back many times but didn't "feel" waht he was supposed to for me. So, by being separated, he worked through all that -- and we worked through it. It was very hard. It was filled with ups and downs. But now he is home and has been since June.
I don't agree that a separation will likely lead to D. It can go either way.
You need to do what makes you the healthiest.
I did not mean to imply with my post that the WAS are right in the way they go about leaving (OW, dropping "bombs" etc). I meant what if they really were right to have left and for whatever reason we just couldn't, haven't, don't want to accept the truth and are holding onto that "promise", "commitment", "vow", "document" and not seeing the truth.
I am not talking about the marriages that hit a rough patch and had a spouse bail out I'm talking about the m that probably shouldn't have happend to begin with.
How do you know the difference between a marriage that just went bad for various circumstances that can be fixed vs. a marriage that SHOULD have ended.
and of course if you do come to the decision that yours was/is a marriage that SHOULD have ended but your WAS suddenly doesn't think so how do you know your not seeing things in the same way they once did and only THINK, FEEL, believe (yes smaller letters) it truley SHOULD have ended.
does anyone have a crystal ball.
How do you know when your an "alien" or just an intelligent, rational, reasonable person who see's things for what they are and knows the m SHOULD be over.
This thread is not inteded to be MINE, I have a thread that is MINE...answer my ponderings or offer up your own. We're all here to try and make sense of the lives we find ourselves dealt.
LL
Wouldn't it be better for the children if both parents were happy living healthy lives even if being seperate from each other is required to do that?
LL
Not for the kids. There was a very large 25 years study that followed a large population of divorced kids. The results were that divorce has a hugely negative effect regardless of the reason. I think if there is abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc... one should definitely leave. But "no love." I think that's a flimsy reason.
How do you know the difference between a marriage that just went bad for various circumstances that can be fixed vs. a marriage that SHOULD have ended.
LL
Only each person can make that determination themselves. I don't think there is any real answer for that. Some marriages which seem like they should end last forever and others that seem like they should stay togeter end. I don't think there are any real answers. Each individual is going to approach this different based on character, strength, mental healthy, ability to deal with things, determination, etc...
There are probably a lot of people who shouldn't be married at all... and shouldn't have kids!
These are really thought-provoking questions. And none can be answered easily. This is teh very reason why being M is so hard and the D rate is so high.
In my experience, it's a matter of working throug the process - our own internal process. Then finally getting to a point where you know what you must do. In my experience, when I have been conflicted with similar questions (and I have, on many occasions), I would sometimes just be so confused that I would tell myself that I don't have the answer right now. Then I would pray to God for guidance. And - again, in my experience - somehow, someway, the answer would come.
So, I think it's just a matter of each of us working through oru own stuff before we can find the answer.
HOWEVER... I did read once in a book about healing a M after an A, that there are three things that determine the success:
1. That the M couple was at one point in time, in love.
2. That the unfaithful spouse is remorseful
3. [this one I have to try to remember]... I think this one was around both partners recognizing what role they each played in the troubles in the M and taking accountability.
Sadly, I SHOULD have been a movie star. But I'm not.....
My life is not perfect. Yeah, it could be better.... I could give everything up and try to acieve that goal. Or, I can just try to enjoy my life the way it is, continue to do things that make me happy in spite of not having what I really should have. And I know for certain I SHOULD have been a movie star. There have been so many choices in my life. And the roads I've taken, maybe they've been mistakes. How can I know which one is best. There are things I have or could have had.... and how much of this should I dwell on? What can I change or what should I change now? Will it make my life any better or worse? Can I ever know where a road taken will lead and if it's going to bring me happiness?
Sadly, I SHOULD have been a movie star. But I'm not.....
My life is not perfect. Yeah, it could be better.... I could give everything up and try to acieve that goal. Or, I can just try to enjoy my life the way it is, continue to do things that make me happy in spite of not having what I really should have. And I know for certain I SHOULD have been a movie star. There have been so many choices in my life. And the roads I've taken, maybe they've been mistakes. How can I know which one is best. There are things I have or could have had.... and how much of this should I dwell on? What can I change or what should I change now? Will it make my life any better or worse? Can I ever know where a road taken will lead and if it's going to bring me happiness?
runningoutoftime,
It could be that you realy believe you should have been a movie star and made some decisions along the way that had you stray from that course...but it seems like your post is patronizing. The thought that one should have had some career or should be in some certain position in life is very different than questioning whether or not a relationship should be.
My question/pondering is not so much the shoulda/coulda/woulda but a serious inquiry into whether or not the marriage we've chosen to stay in realy is a m worth staying in. By questioning whether or not we SHOULD have gotten back together or SHOULD stay together now I'm simply assessing the situation. Would it be better if I just decided I'm not happy and went off to have an a and abondon my family?
Remember when you post to me that I'm NOT the WAS. I'm here trying to avoid becoming a WAS. If I believed I should have been a movie star, comedian, talk show host, singer, athelete, balerina, hip hop dancer, skateborder, olympic swimmer, runner, accountant, bank teller, newspaper delivery person, retail store owner, trash pick up person, police officer, teacher, day care owner, small business owner, writer, painter...and was blaming the issues in my m on that I think there would be posting on another site gearred more toward obtaining the career of your dreams or changing your career later in life etc. The choices that I've made that did not allow me to become whatever it is I may have been supposed to be are not h's fault and I don't place any blame on him for where I am in areas that are not directly effected by my m. I've made the choices. I'm not holding him responsible for my happiness but if I'm not happy in the r with him, my needs are not being met then I don't see what's wrong with questioning if the r should be or not. It's simply wording. What if instead of posing the question as "if the r SHOULD be" I questioned whether or not the r was/is HEALTHY for each parnter"? Same question in my mind but maybe posing it that way will stop people from thinking I'm a dreaming was on some alien ship. I'm living in reality have been for the past 6 years. If I'm an alien then the aliens make a whole lot more sense than the stay married because you got married group.
No, it's not meant to be patronizing. I really don't think there's any clear cut answer to your question and I'm tying to find similar analogies to test it out.
What "should" be is a hypothetical question. The only way I know to get as close as possible to an accurate answer to any question like this is to test it (or live it), and I personally think the amount of variables makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to predict the outcome. Also, one generally doesn't want to live their life as a science experiment... so the best I think one can probably do is to consider as many variables as possible and then make a decision based on intuition....keeping in mind that intuition can be faulty....
There is never anything wrong with questioning things like this. I sometimes wonder about the same thing myself. There have been plenty of moments I've wanted (or dreamed!) of being a WAS. I think it's very wise of you to think carefully about this before making any personal decisions.
I think I've realized that though h went about things the wrong way by having his ea he was right to go. Trouble is I don't know how to get him back to that point of honesty again without going to the extreme he did. I'm starting to believe his a was not just a run of the mill a but was more of an exit a he just lost his umph to keep going but not because of me or us but more because of his societal or religious obligation to the "family".
I have to face facts and the facts (for years now not just recently) show that h isn't here even when he is. He's hiding behind alchohol or medication or sleeping or getting busy with projects that keep him away. It's not like he doesn't know how to engage with just me...he doesn't seem to know how to engage the children either...he's closer to the dog than any of us humans here. Sad, but true.
How can I get this across to him without being met with
If you don't like it you leave
if you don't like it go see a lawyer and the for sale sign goes up and we disprupt the kids lives
well that sucks
silence
as always
UGH!
I did join a gym today and am working on getting into grad school so I'm already doing some real GAL things just wish they'd make a difference with h but I know they wont.
LL
Your husband sounds depressed to me. You shouldn't take his depression personally.
I hate to be blunt, but does your husband contribute finanically to the household? does this help allow you to be a good mom and take care of things? How would this change if you were divorced? Wouldn't it make it harder to study and focus on grad school? These are things you should consider....
When did the EA end?
Your husband sounds depressed to me. You shouldn't take his depression personally.
I don't. I know it's not just me he treats this way. But I can't NOT recognize what it does to this family.
I hate to be blunt, but does your husband contribute finanically to the household?
Yes, that seems to be the one thing he does do and thinks he should get an A at being a good husband because of it
does this help allow you to be a good mom and take care of things?
yes and no. Being a good mom isn't about being able to spend money on your kids buying them toys and things. It's about making sure they are taken care of emotionally, physically and able to be a kid, having fun with them, entering their world once in a while to help teach them to learn in the real one etc. How would this change if you were divorced? let's see...during our seperation and tentative d...h still payed the bills and took out the trash. I did as I do now...everything else. Sure there'd be adjustments to make but I don't see us suddenly having to move to a 1br apt because of d Wouldn't it make it harder to study and focus on grad school? No! Infact it may make it easier to study and focus because I wouldn't have him and his issues in my face on a regular basis. These are things you should consider.... I'm trying to consider everthing...I still haven't reached a point where I'm ready to make a move...other than my going back to school and truly focussing on me in bigger ways. The volunteering, various book clubs and social groups I've had to keep me busy and distracted aren't enough anymore and really never were. I need to work on getting myself where I want to be...I need to grow.
What I intended in my post is that I'm starting to feel like I'm at the edge of the cliff...I'm either going to sit there forever or soon when I'm sure I can survive the jump and swim I'll do so.
LL
When did the EA end? roughly 6 years ago but I'm not certain of that either
Definitely being a good mom isn't about money. It's about time. Do you work full-time? As a single mom would you have to work more, or would you be able to reduce hours? As a single mom going to school wouldn't your life be work, grad school, possible dating so you don't feel "lonely," and then kids. That sounds like a lot to juggle....
Hummm.... you mentioned it would be easier to study and focus because you wouldn't have your husband and his issues in your face on a regular basis... but on the other hand you mentioned that he spends more time with the dog than with you and other members of the family? To me it sounds like you may have a quite a bit of independence in your marriage (?)..... I think an independent-type marriage might allow you more time for school.
Although..... divorce with H having half or full custody would definitely give you plenty of time for school.... that might be something to consider.
Wow, how do you have time for volunteering, reading books and social groups??? You probably do need some changes. School and working out at the gym will be good. Do you know if you've gone through MLC yet (I did... I think I still am in it!!! Sometimes I'm still acting like I'm 16 again
).
Definitely being a good mom isn't about money. It's about time. Do you work full-time?
I have been a stay at home mom for the past almost 9 years) As a single mom would you have to work more, or would you be able to reduce hours? I'd probably have to work some which is why I want to get my masters...the BS that I have makes me employable but not for decent money As a single mom going to school wouldn't your life be work, grad school, possible dating so you don't feel "lonely," and then kids. That sounds like a lot to juggle....
Hummm.... you mentioned it would be easier to study and focus because you wouldn't have your husband and his issues in your face on a regular basis... but on the other hand you mentioned that he spends more time with the dog than with you and other members of the family? To me it sounds like you may have a quite a bit of independence in your marriage (?)..... I think an independent-type marriage might allow you more time for school.
because he has more of a r with the dog than the humans here...there is an independance but not the good kind. What I meant was the distraction of his issues would not be here. I can't currently rely on him to take on responsibilities with the house or kids (and that wouldn't change even if I were working) so it's more of a mental "time" and "space" issue. If he's not here I don't have to think about the issues he brings to the table. Although..... divorce with H having half or full custody would definitely give you plenty of time for school.... that might be something to consider.
He would likely have no custody...at best it would be a vist one or two nights during the week and maybe one weekend day and honestly that would be way more time than he's putting in now Wow, how do you have time for volunteering, reading books and social groups??? You probably do need some changes. School and working out at the gym will be good.
by going back to school and then working I'll be cutting down on the volunteering and minimalizing the social activities to those that are the most rewarding Do you know if you've gone through MLC yet (I did... I think I still am in it!!! Sometimes I'm still acting like I'm 16 again
).
I don't think so but you never know.
Wow, how fortunate you are to have been a stay-at-home-mom. I know so few moms who are able to do that. Your children are very lucky to have had you at home during those years! H may be a cold depressed fish, but he did give you that gift. One thing to be thankful for....
Yes, as a single mom you will have to work. The courts tend to push that, but I think working would probably be good for you. It will bring a positive change in your life and new meaning.
How old are your children?
Regarding MLC, most people don't realize it until after they've been through it. It's something you look back at and some people can define it while others just figure it's part of the process. Even as adults we go through typical stages of life like infants and young children. For example, MLC is sort of like a toddler going through the "terrible twos." Also, some people breeze though certain stages while others struggle. I've watched a few friends go through MLC. It's kind of fascinating to see and I'm always very curious about the end result. How they view the whole thing afterward.
Well, it does sound like you've thought things through. What's your first step? Do you plan to move out or file first?
H may be a cold depressed fish, but he did give you that gift. One thing to be thankful for....
I am thankful for that! My children are thankful for that!
.
How old are your children? S will be 9 soon and DD is 6
Well, it does sound like you've thought things through. What's your first step? Do you plan to move out or file first?
Slow down! This is LL your talking to...the one who's always ready to move but doesn't. First steps will have nothing to do with D they will be about me. 1. getting into a routine of going to the gym and trying to be more healthy 2. visiting potential grad school programs, making a decision and submitting applications.
Yes, that's wise to line your ducks up first. But, keep in mind, life is short. Also, D can be brutal on kids entering adolescence (Jr. High is bad enough!!!). You might want to get the ball rolling soon.