Listening for surprises... - DivorceBusting.com

Beginning a new thread...

Link to old
Willing to be disturbed...

Here is my last post on my last thread. Thank you Cat and FA for the well wishes. I'm really looking forward to our trip - I can't even sleep, lol.

WEll - I still haven't done anything about the sex talk. I still haven't read DR over again with new goals in mind. BUT, next week I'm on vacation and H is working so that is one of the things I will accomplish. I'll be sure to post here.

Yesterday was nice. H and I cooked together and ate by candle-light. It was peaceful. I've been preoocupied lately, partly the sex thing, partly the condition of my house, schoolwork, so I was pretty light on the conversation. I felt bad for H, but I just couldn't force myself to be present. I guess I was feeling a little disappointed because our R is not where it should be. And I do take responsiblity as I know there are things I could be doing and I'm not - read paragraph 1, for starters.

H and I leave tomorrow for a weekend away. We are both really excited. We haven't been away together in a long time - I think since the summer of '06. During that summer, 1 month post A bomb, H and I went to Vermont. We slept in separate beds and had an awful undercurrent running through the trip.

On Thursday, I made reservations for us at an inn we both wanted to stay at. Unfortunately they only had Sunday night available. (this is such a 180 for me - I used to just let H make all of the arrangments - I was always afraid that he wouldn't like what I would choose, so I'd leave it up to him. Now, I have much more confidence to say, This is what I want, this is what I like. And H likes that. I used to be like that prior to getting married...hmmm...) Anyway, I booked the one night and then H today, booked us Saturday night at a different inn. He called me at work to tell me that he did so. There were two rooms available he said. I could have booked us a room with 2 double beds, or pay a little extra and get a room with a queen. I said, what did you choose? (thinking in the back of my mind, we stayed in 2 double beds in Vermont) And he said, I got us the rooom with a queen. And I said, Nice work. He said, yeah, you can't stay in a room with two double beds on a romantic weekend - it's not like we're going to Vermont.
I thought it was cute that he acknowledged the bad time is in the past. I'm trying not to get my hopes up about that bed - if ya know what I mean

So - he picked up his car today. His buddy drove him to the station to get it - and then they are hitting a local brewery for lunch. In the past I would have been jealous of that. I would have felt left out if he were going out with his friends. But, today, I have a life. I'm heading out with some friends after work and am so looking forward to the time with H this weekend.

I hope everyone is making plans to enjoy their weekends. Find something to do!
Em

Hi All -

I'm back from our trip. What a nice time! No sex, but tons of cuddling and being together. We had such a great weekend together! Saturday we drove for 4 hours - and chatted the whole way. Stopped in a cute town for lunch on the way to our destination. Had great conversation - really felt like old times. Checked out a winery near where we were staying - had a private tasting for free - fun, fun, fun, and then headed off to our hotel - the one H set up - and yes, we had the queen bed. We were so relaxed all weekend. We had dinner Saturday night in a little town - ate at a pub that had over 130 beers on their menu - yup 130. That was pretty cool. We toured the area on Sunday - and checked in to the inn that I had reserved. I was nervous because it was a little ways out from all of the attractions and kinda in the middle of nowhere. Well, no worries when we finally arrived. The inn keepers were amazing and the place was beautiful. We soaked in the hot tub (our own private one $\:\)$ and ate at a restaurant in town that you would never think was a restaurant - just a little old house transformed into a restaurant - I don't think it could seat more than 20 - the food was amazing and we had a lovely time dining by candlelight. We were in for the night around 8 - watched 2 movies and slept like royalty. We were well fed in the morning, and reluctant to go home. Yesterday H commented that it will be our new get away place. He cannot wait to go back. It was cool that he was so pleased with the accomodations I picked. He wouldn't complain if he wasn't, but it was nice to be appreciated.

So that was the weekend -

Last night, was sex talk. Basically, H doesn't want to talk about it - with anyone, not even me. This is his issue and he'll have to deal with it on his own time.

I got stonewalled - big time. But, he still extremely cuddly, affectionate, loving, etc. So, I know that I need to create a safe environment. Now that I have told him calmly that this issue concerns me, I'm letting it go. He needs to now come around on this. Clearly he isn't ready to deal with it.

In the past, for other issues when H has gotten like this, he usually comes around. For example, H got kicked out of our church when I told the elders he was having an A and that bothered him for a long time. Granted i believe he should have been dealt with (and so does he) but the manner in which it was done was very poor - probably because I'm related to 2 of the elders and they took his A extremely personally. There are other issues there too, but far to many to mention. Anyway, I say this because H was really bothered by the situation there but didn't know how to deal with it, until I told him that I felt he really needed closure there and perhaps going back there would help. But it wasn't until I told him that I think he might want to do that, that he did. And it took about 3 to 4 weeks for him to come around. I'm going to give him 3 to 4 weeks on this - and I'm going to try some stuff in the meantime.

We'll see.
Phew - long post. Thanks for reading ALL of that!

Hope everyone is well!
Em

awww, what a wonderful time you had, sounded perfect.

And kudos for the way you brough up sex talk, as my C said "just lay the issue next to him", basically not to cram it down his mouth. Keeping my fingers crossed for you $\:\)$

Hi edie/cat:

I know I ask a lot of you....would one of you partner with beginnersmind on her solution journal (MLC forum)? She is formerly 'dippy'?

Thanks,
sg

Wow...sounds like a really nice get-a-way trip! I have been wanting to do something like that for a long time with my H. But then he starting having an A, and my plans sort of got put on hold.

Sara

Hey EM!! I laughed that your H said "Its not like we going to Vermont!". That was funny. Its good you can laugh, but yet acknowledge that you are in such a better place now. The sex thing will come. Funny, my coworker here (he is 45 yrs old)..his W cheated, she ended it, they did Retro, and are soo much better but still haven't had sex yet either. He wants it, she isn't ready. Hard stuff, but totally easier to tackle since you guys are on the 'same team' now.

Originally Posted By: ediemarie

Basically, H doesn't want to talk about it - with anyone, not even me. This is his issue and he'll have to deal with it on his own time.

I got stonewalled - big time. But, he still extremely cuddly, affectionate, loving, etc. So, I know that I need to create a safe environment. Now that I have told him calmly that this issue concerns me, I'm letting it go. He needs to now come around on this. Clearly he isn't ready to deal with it.

Anyway, I say this because H was really bothered by the situation there but didn't know how to deal with it, until I told him that I felt he really needed closure there and perhaps going back there would help. But it wasn't until I told him that I think he might want to do that, that he did. And it took about 3 to 4 weeks for him to come around. I'm going to give him 3 to 4 weeks on this - and I'm going to try some stuff in the meantime.

OK, ediemarie, here goes. A few ideas for you. You wrote "I'm letting it go, he needs to now come around on this." But likely he won't if left to himself. Just as in the church closure issue, you'll probably have to give a lead.

First of all, a commentary and an instruction from the master, St. Paul writing to the Corinthians (1Cor.7:3-5)

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Now on to a contemporary master of marriage counselling, Willard Harley ("His Needs/Her Needs") Harley's contribution to the discipline was some original research on the differing emotional needs of husbands and wives. He identified 10 emotional needs. All 10 were important to both husbands and wives, but the 10 emotional needs were ranked differently according to gender. For women the #1 emotional need, the one they couldn't do without was 'affection'. For men it was 'sex'. Yes, Harley identified sex as an emotional need, and for men it was #1, the one they couldn't do without, at least not for very long.

So you can pretty well figure it out, that sooner or later, if he's not getting it from you he'll be getting it elsewhere. St. Paul and Willard Harley are in agreement on this issue and both are experts in their respective fields.

Now on to what appleroad has learned from reading what the credentialled sex therapists (David Schnarch et al) have to say about the issue: sexuality for a mature married couple is different from the sexuality of the in-love-with love affair (either pre-marital, early marital or extramarital) It is possible (appleroad has checked this out BTW) to have a satisfying sex life with the sexual encounters not being driven by 'feelings'. In other words, intention alone is enough. Male arousal does not rely on the in-love-with feelings alone. Physical stimulation (hopefully from his partner) will get the job done. And when you really stop to think about it, why should a wife feel that she needs to patiently await from her husband the same lustful, illicit in-love-with feelings that drove him to an A? To an unchaste, immoral OW? Does this make sense?

Do it the wifely way, ediemarie. Insist on you rights -- in your mind, no need to verbalize this to H, only to yourself. Stop giving away your care and affection, it sounds like it's going into a black hole. Make sure you get back from the relationship equivalent to what you're putting into it, make it a truly reciprocal adult relationship. H is coming across as a baby, as a sensitive invalid. It's time for him to "man-up". He's probably afraid of not being able to rise to the occasion without the in-love-with feelings being present. So let him face this fear and conquer it. He's not a baby. He's a man. He needs something more than a safe environment.

Hi Appleroad - thanks for swinging by! I appreciate your input.

Quote:

Insist on you rights -- in your mind, no need to verbalize this to H, only to yourself. Stop giving away your care and affection, it sounds like it's going into a black hole.

I certainly don't feel like my care and affection is going into a black hole. I don't feel like I'm giving more than I'm getting. I actually feel pretty satisfied in the majority of the areas in our R. Perhaps I'm deluding myself...I'll give it some thought.

Quote:

H is coming across as a baby, as a sensitive invalid. It's time for him to "man-up".

this has been my theme song since this situation began. He needs to man up. In the past, in moments of anger I have even said these very words to H. However, this has to be something he wants to do and he HAS to do it. You can't force someone to man-up. It has to come from within. This has been struggle in our M. How do you coax/cojule/demand/force someone to man up. I don't believe it's possible. Please enlighten me as to how to make this happen...

Quote:

He needs something more than a safe environment.

Any ideas as to what this might be? Perhaps a personal invitation each and every day? I'm truly at a loss here. I feel like I should know how to make this happen, but I just have no clue. Additionally, I don't think it should be this difficult. It is a never ending cycle. I think about solutions, I try them, they don't work, I get frustrated, feel like I deserve so much more (because I do, in terms of sex) and debate leaving my marriage.

Again, he is completely opposed to any sort of counseling and will not discuss this with me. He physically pushes me away if I make any sort of sexual advance and stonewalls me in conversations. I'm back at wanting to throw in the towel and just remains friends...yuck.

thanks for the thoughts!
Em

Originally Posted By: ediemarie

... this has to be something he wants to do and he HAS to do it. You can't force someone to man-up. It has to come from within. This has been struggle in our M. How do you coax/cojule/demand/force someone to man up. I don't believe it's possible. Please enlighten me as to how to make this happen...

I think about solutions, I try them, they don't work, I get frustrated, feel like I deserve so much more (because I do, in terms of sex) and debate leaving my marriage.

... he is completely opposed to any sort of counseling and will not discuss this with me. He physically pushes me away if I make any sort of sexual advance and stonewalls me in conversations. I'm back at wanting to throw in the towel and just remains friends...yuck.

You can't make him 'man-up'. But you can show him there will be consequences if he does not. He is not the only actor in this drama. I think he's having it too much his way, ediemarie. You get to have some input into the conditions of your relationship. Probably what's stopping you from flexing your own muscle is fear of H leaving you, leaving the marriage. You dally over whether you can settle for being 'just friends'. I think what's stopping H is performance anxiety. The big question is, whose fear is the greatest? Your fear over losing the friendship and the marriage, or his fear of not being able to rise to the occasion? But also, how long is either one of you willing to wait? Maybe time alone will settle the issue without further intervention.

But it never hurts to have Plan B dusted off and ready to go. Having Plan B can settle you down while you are waiting. When you feel you've waited long enough you could consider making couples therapy with a credentialled sex therapist a condition for the ongoing relationship. Just a few ideas to further your thinking. Also, it wouldn't hurt to do some research into this sexual problem. I've found that some quality time spent with Google can really yield dividends.

Quote:

But you can show him there will be consequences if he does not.

and when I have mentioned these consequences in the past he has said you have to do what you think is right. If you think it's right to do "xyz" then do "xyz"

I'm past the point of fearing my marriage be over. There was a time when I feared that and my actions were out of fear. I'm not fearful of losing it. I'm hesitant because in the past I have crammed what I have wanted down H's throat. I struggle because I can't find the balance between "laying the issue beside him" (as cat has said) and cramming it down him. The cramming it down him bit doesn't work with H. In fact it makes him more obstinant. (much like a child, it turns into a power struggle) I feel that I need to get creative in this situation and I don't know what that is. I don't how to finesse this sitch - I need some good old fashioned female trickery - you know, along the lines of the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. I'm so "bull in a china closet" about just about everything in life and so light on the finesse.

Plan B of having a credentialled sex therapist ready to go is an option. It's even an option for me to see him/her and get some ideas there without H.

Quote:

I think what's stopping H is performance anxiety.

while this could be possible, I'm not convinced of this. I do believe it's a rejection issue. I believe it when he says that because that is his fear. He was abandoned as a child by both parents and that just runs really deeply. I honestly believe that he is afraid of being closely knit to me due to his abandonment issues. Everyone he has loved in life has walked away from him. Granted it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it happens nonentheless and is a real fear of his. So, in H's eyes, we ML, but H fears that it will still not be enough to keep me.

Originally Posted By: appleroad Please enlighten me as to how to make this happen...

... he is completely opposed to any sort of counseling and will not discuss this with me. He physically pushes me away if I make any sort of sexual advance and stonewalls me in conversations. [/quote

... When you feel you've waited long enough you could consider making couples therapy with a credentialled sex therapist a condition for the ongoing relationship.

I should have mentioned how I managed this problem myself. I didn't go the sex therapist route, and frankly, I think most men would rather have some important body parts cut off them than to attend any kind of 'therapy'. I think most men would rather negotiate with their wives.

We were separated when we did the negotiation, and it was part of the overall reconciliation agreement, so that made it easier than in your situation. In other words, H knew from the get-go that any relationship with me had to include a sexual relationship. I knew he didn't have 'the feelings', but it was all accomplished much easier than what I could ever have imagined! And once the pump was primed it never stopped.

I think the ticket is 'negotiation', not discussion or conversation. And scheduling. Like, 'not now, and not only when the mood strikes (because it never will, trust me!) but every Friday at 2pm, we'll get together for the afternoon. I'll start by giving you a nice massage and we'll see where we end up.'

[quote=ediemarie
.... I do believe it's a rejection issue. I believe it when he says that because that is his fear. He was abandoned as a child by both parents and that just runs really deeply. I honestly believe that he is afraid of being closely knit to me due to his abandonment issues. Everyone he has loved in life has walked away from him. Granted it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but it happens nonentheless and is a real fear of his. So, in H's eyes, we ML, but H fears that it will still not be enough to keep me. [/quote]

(Our messages crossed in posting)

Ediemarie, this is an interesting theory, but what good does it do you, even if true? Does it get the job done? If not, then abandon it. There are plenty of theories out there.

Everyone comes into marriage with baggage they're carrying from childhood. Your own baggage is likely just as impressive as H baggage, and just as deserving of consideration. But how does this get the two of you into bed!

Cut to the chase. Once you get the sexual relationship up, by whatever means possible, it will enhance your relationship so much that a lot of this baggage will either fall by the wayside or will put the two of you in a position to better deal with it, as true partners.

Quote:

Like, 'not now, and not only when the mood strikes (because it never will, trust me!) but every Friday at 2pm, we'll get together for the afternoon. I'll start by giving you a nice massage and we'll see where we end up.'

This may work, too...(except that he hates massages...I'll think of something - it could even be just lying in bed together talking) it quite possibly could be the finesse that we/I need.

Quote:

men would rather have some important body parts cut off them than to attend any kind of 'therapy'

LOL! I concur.

thank you appleroad!

Oh, one more thing. I'm talking 'whole body massage'. You can read a book on massage if you need to. And have some essential oils on hand for the massage lotion. Start with a foot bath. Have plenty of towels on hand, and a big Rubbermaid type dishpan for the footbath. Then start the massage with the feet. Pay plenty of attention to the toes. Work your way up. Spend a lot of time on the back. Turn him over and start again from the feet and work your way up. Spend some time on the nipples. Then turn him over again! Don't even think of going to the genitals for an hour or so.

oooo la la

Don't neglect the scalp and the face and the hands. The whole body is an erogenous zone. Have fun! I'm sure you'll accomplish the mission, ediemarie.

i just love all these ideas; i personally am nowhere near having the 'leverage' to implement, i.e. a decent R outside the bedroom, but it's my goal to gain leverage to present this negotiation (by either me, or a C, or my pastor) by year's end. we'll see if God can help me gain some credibility by then.

in contrast, EM, I think you DO have the relationship leverage at this point to go here. i look forward to following your sitch in this area.

\o/\o/\o/ you can do it! (three cheers)

Hi Believing - nice to see you!

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm still planning on waiting awhile before I attempt this - another 3 to 4 weeks. I have found that what works with my H is "planting the seed," if you will, of ideas in his head first. He knows I want a sexual relationship with him, now I need to give him some room to think about it and own the decision. I will speak to him about ideas of implementation if I don't see any reaction from him. I, of course, will keep this thread updated.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

I read something interesting today. I assigned The Pearl by steinbeck to my students to read over this past week and today I re-read the whole thing. For those of you unfamiliar with the story, a man and a woman have a baby that gets stung by a scorpion. They are poor and cannot afford a doctor's help. In order to pay for the doctor, the man dives for pearls and finds the best pearl in the whole world. Because of this great find, he (the man) ends up losing everything. While the man is diving for the pearl, the woman is caring for her baby. As she is caring for him, she prays that her husband find a pearl of great worth. As she is praying it dawns on her that she wasn't praying for the restoration of her child's health, but for the solution that she saw fit - a large pearl.

It made me wonder if with this whole sex thing, I wasn't focused on the wrong idea altogether. That perhaps I should be focusing on building the R with my H in the best way possible and all the sex will follow...it gave me pause.

hope you all are enjoying your weekend!!!

It's been awhile since I've posted. Not a whole lot going on. It's strange, I just feel like H and I are living our lives - not really working on anything, not really actively changing our R. And I think this is a good thing. There was a time when any spare moment I had I was pouring over a R-improvement book, or some other self-help book. Now, we're just living our lives and it's good. But at the same time we're both aware of the help our R needs.

Tonight we went out for dinner for the first time in a LONG time - last month we added up how much we spent in eating out in a months time ($700 bucks a month, btw) and we both cracked up laughing and said, yup we've got issues. So we've curtailed the eating out to 2 times a week. Tonight he looked at me over our anitpasto appetizer and small pomadoro pizza and said "I think eating out is good for us. We talk so much more, and I feel so connected to you." That was so super sweet to hear. So nice. I grabbed his hand and said, "I love spending time with you." Later on, after a switch in conversation I said, "H, I'm glad you think about what makes things between us better. That is really great. Thank you." We had fun. A really nice time.

No real change on the sex front. Although before dinner, he did throw me up onto one of the counters in the kitchen and said, "that's the way a real man does it" all flirty like. He was just kidding around, but these moments are becoming more frequent. He is trying to be playful and affectionate.

I think it's going to take a little longer for him to come around. He has been having major issues with some kidney stones. He's been in and out of Dr.'s offices and ERs. He was hospitalized for 3 days last year at this time with a kidney infection due to kidney stones - and he has been having similiar pain this month. So, we're waiting to get some test results back - in the meantime he has absolutly no sexual desire. I'll just maintain my patient stand.

Although - I did read a saying today, that I had read before and had forgotten - "what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?" Hmmm... made me think of all the ways I would...well...you know...

Hope everyone is well!
Em

Edie,
The anecdote of your H lifting you on the counter with assertiveness and desire is teeming with sexuality. This is certainly a turn in your situation.

You are handling the sexual issue very well. You are doing and not doing what the problem requires from you at this time. You have reason to be hopeful.

CL

Thanks CL - I'm really trying to just "be there" for him. To listen and encourage. From reading various threads on this site, I'm learning how men, in general, have a difficult time understanding women. I realize that I contribute to that in my M. My H is pretty sensitive and he does take my moods personally - although he shouldn't. I find that by explaining more about why I am in the "mood" I'm in, he is more relaxed. Communication is key. Thanks for coming by!
Em

Hey edie, stop getting a 'separated' woman all riled up with your steamy kitchen stories. $;\)$

He is testing the waters, coming to you slowly. Your patience will be rewarded. HUGS!

that must mean your counter is clean?!!! $\:D$

Quote:

that must mean your counter is clean?!!!

and it certainly is incentive to keep it that way!! $\:\)$

Ok. It's time. It's time to forgive him - entirely. I really thought I had. But in thinking about forgivness and what it is, I've come to see that I'm all too happy to hang onto what he has done. I bring it up, sometimes, in the midst of arguments. I find myself thinking about it. I've accepted what has happened. I get it. I understand it. I want to forgive it. I don't want to hold it against him, right? I'm not so sure. there is comfort, on some level, to hold onto the pain he caused. I've wrapped it around me like a blanket and I'm holding onto it.

And the journey continues...

Edie, I just spent the past 45 mintues reading your whole story and it is really inspiring to me. I see a lot of myself in you and a lot of my husband in yours. I too seem to "mother" my H, and I know that has been a complaint in the past. Reading your posts has reminded me that I need to work on letting that go.

Overall it is just so encouraging to me. I want to approach my H and see if he would go to Retro with me (there is one in May). I am just not sure how to approach the subject.

I just keep reading and seeing how things are progressing for you. Right now I long for my H to hug me...touch me in any way.

Good luck with the forgiving. It is so difficult to forgive. You know that it is the right thing to do because it will free you, but it is hard to let go because you think "what if he does it again?"

Sara

Hi All -

well, it will be 5 years tomorrow. 5 years since we said I do. H and I went for drinks after work today. Just relaxed and hung out a bit. He went to church this evening. I'm home, just hanging out and enjoying the peace and quiet. We have been having some great times together the past few weeks. Things have been great between us. We're still "working" on the sex thing - his working up to it, and I'm working at no pressuring him. We had a brief conversation last night about it, again. H said he is trying and I said I don't want to push him and he has all the time he needs to get there on his own. He said he doesn't feel pressured at all and is working at a pace comfortable to him. That's good. I acknolwedgeded what I saw as effort and H said he is glad I'm noticing. So, it was a positive interaction even if it's still frustrating for me. H is pretty "hands-on" lately so that's good. (and I mean, literally - his hands are all over me - a lot) but still no sex - or even mild "hooking up". Just a lot of flirtatious grabby moments. it's more than it was though so I'll take it.

We don't have a lot planned for the weekend. We're hitting a Sunday bruch on sunday afternoon so tha will be nice and that's about it. Not much else going on. We have plans tomorrow - I will get my car inspected and get a manicure/pedicure, H has basketball to watch. Things are just moving along...

Hope you all are doing well!!
Em

It�s guilt. I feel guilty. Guilt has brought me back here.

It�s been ages since I�ve posted � almost a year. Here�s a brief recap � my H had an affair with a coworker (we�re both teachers) that begin in October 05 and then ended in June 06 � after I found out and confronted him. He didn�t quit his job, and then fell back into that R in October 06 to about August 07. In September 07 we went to Retrovaille and both of us decided it was worth trying to work through things. Things have been getting gradually better over time � but since December my H has been really struggling � not with his feelings for the OW, but with existing. He isn�t suicidal, but he hasn�t wanted to leave the house. He has not worked a day since December 12. He is in counseling, and that is helping tremendously. He says he feels lonely and scared. Today his school gave him the choice to either resign or have his tenure reviewed. He chose to resign.

And I feel guilty.

And sad.

And discouraged.

All along I have wished, desired, prayed that he would quit this job. And now he has. Is this a normal feeling? I thought I would feel different in this moment. I thought that I would be ecstatic. Maybe part of it is that the decision was made for him? I don�t know . . . I�m just trying to wrap my mind around it all.

I am surprised to feel this way . . . I was assuming that I would be happier.

Ediemarie,

It's nice to hear from you again. I'm sorry that the circumstances aren't better. You should not feel guilty. You wanted him to quit his job, not develop agoraphobia. Your husband seems to be in a state of depression. You never hoped for that. IMO he needs medical help to deal with his problems. This is not a marital issue, this is a mental health issue.

Hi Sara - thanks for weighing in. You're right, it is a mental health issue. Today he went to the doctor and he put H on AA and ADs. He also has a counseling appointment tomorrow. He's been going pretty faithfully for about 9 months. He had been toying with quitting his job, but he always has trouble pulling the trigger on making decisions - something he and his C have talked about a bit. I'm just hoping that he gets this sitch resolved. I am forever the optomist. I must admit, I'd prefer to be dealing with this than another A-bomb, so I really should be counting my blessings.

Sara, without you we never would have made it to Retrouvaille. I don't think I've ever properly thanked you - so I'm doing it now. Thank you for speaking about your experiences. It made a difference!

em

Thanks, EM. It's very rewarding to hear from people who benefited from the Retrouvaille experience. I'm glad to hear that your H has already been to the doctor. Recognition of the problem is the biggest step.

I've been re-bombed and I'm not sure what to do. A few weeks ago my H told me that he loves me but is not in love with me. In some respects I think this is progress. In some respects I think it was his way of telling me that he wanted to fix things. He said he didn't want to leave me, he wants us to work. He thinks we can work, he even thinks those feelings can come back again. It's just been so long since we've actually felt any romantic feelings for one another. I'm wondering if I should leave. I don't know if I have the energy for this. Even when he told me, I wasn't that upset. It was like he was confirming what I already knew.
The positives:
- He says he wants to be in love with me
- He says he wants us to have a fulfilling relationship: spiritually, romantically, emotionally, etc
- Ultimately, I would like our relationship to last and be fulfilling

The negatives:
- He doesn't want to do counseling, and thinks we should be able to do this on our own - I think we should get a counselor
- I don't have it in me to actually "work" at this - I'm weary and debating leaving because I just don't see this getting any better
- I don't know how to have a fulfilling relationship (and I don't think he does either)

What am I missing? Is there anything I should do in this instance? Is there anything I can do?

When people say that piecing is the hardest part of this whole ride, believe them. I have no idea what I�m doing or how to do this. . . I just know that it is really difficult.

My H is working hard at this; he is, in his own way. He has so much going on in his head and so much to figure out. His approach is nothing like mine. He quit his job, where OW works, in December and it�s been months of no contact. (For those of you going through the whole A recovery process, know that no-contact is of paramount importance. You truly cannot rebuild if there is contact, of any kind.) It�s been a solid six months of H not having any contact whatsoever and I see him trying to unravel his thought process, his actions, his desires for the future for himself, and for us. I see him healing from major depression and laughing again, making healthy, good, decisions, and devoting time to me.

If I were in his shoes, I would have quit my job years ago � like when the A first came to light. I think waiting for 2 � years hindered our progress and growth � it made us, and dealing with us, more difficult, for me. I remember when I was first bombed and all I wanted to talk about was our relationship and how it was unraveling quicker than it was built. I came here and posted and posted and posted til I couldn�t post anymore. It was the focus of my life. I wanted to talk about it all the time. It consumed me. It�s different now, for me. And yet, not for H. He wants to talk about it frequently. He needs to revisit some of the past and hear how I feel about him, about us. And I am numb. I wanted to talk about all of this with him years ago � years � and now, I�ve just kinda slipped into complacence, slipped into this void of not feeling anything about us. Sure, I want our marriage to be better, to be passionate, to be intimate, to be a partnership, to be all things one hopes a marriage will be, but how? How do I begin to feel again?

We spoke about this earlier this morning. It was certainly a start. I told him everything I wrote here. I suppose like all else on this strange walk from commitment, to infidelity, to commitment it is traveled just one step at a time. I wish there were a map, a guide, a way to see our way through this. I continue to wish that there would be someone to say, �step here, step here, step here and here and voila! marriage healed and perfected!� Alas, we, as humans, are not so lucky on any of our journeys.

Hi Ediemarie. Good to hear from you again. Sorry its not better than it is. I think you and he do need to do the counseling. Or try another weekend program. I hear the New Beginnings program is good. It deals a lot with love and finding love again. I'm sorry to hear that you have just stalled. Even if you redid Retro, either the weekend or the Post sessions. I think the work would be helpful to you.

Edimarie,

It took my H a long time to really relise the damage he had caused and the long term impacts. In the beginning I think he felt 'justified' in the pain he had caused.....and in some ways he was. As time went on though and he saw the long term impacts it had had on me and he really hurt. Perhaps this is what's happening to your H. It could be a good sign.

(((((HUGS))))))) Piecing is very hard. More than once I have considered throwing in the towel and I have had it easier than most.

Originally Posted By: ediemarie

We spoke about this earlier this morning. It was certainly a start. I told him everything I wrote here. I suppose like all else on this strange walk from commitment, to infidelity, to commitment it is traveled just one step at a time. I wish there were a map, a guide, a way to see our way through this. I continue to wish that there would be someone to say, �step here, step here, step here and here and voila! marriage healed and perfected!� Alas, we, as humans, are not so lucky on any of our journeys.

Edie,
A quote I've collected from my Inspiration Notebook:

You climb a long ladder until you can see over the roof, or over the clouds. You watch your shod feet step on each rung, one at a time; you do not hurry and do not rest. Your feet feel the steep ladder's balance...you climb steadily, doing your job in the dark.

----Annie Dillard

CL

Hi, Sara, Saffie, and CL, thanks for weighing in.

Sara, I think counseling is in order, too. My H has been going pretty regularly lately and it is helping him. He has mentioned us going together in the future, but says he still has his own stuff to work through first. I told him that I would go when he was ready for us both to be there. He, from time to time, will mention that he thinks once his head is straight, we could do a lot to fix our m on our own. This makes me nervous, as I am having a difficult time expressing myself. Worst case scenario I will go on my own, and he will go on his own. I�m just not ready yet. Retrouvaille was a great experience for us. We both still talk about how helpful it was for us. We understand each other better and are able to have constructive discussions about conflicts. I am struggling with actually feeling anything towards him or anyone/anything else, etc. My H is just different than I. He feels everything. He�s sensitive to everything. I like this about him. It�s one of things that I fell in love with; I�m just not like that. I think he sees this as a flaw, and maybe to some extent it is. Some things to figure out here.

Saffie, thanks. I agree. I think this is what he is going through right now. I think being apart from OW has helped that. And he has take precautions against having any contact with her. She requested his friendship on facebook, he closed his account, she sent him emails, he blocked her email address. He has been invited to events by old coworkers and won�t go, just under the chance she might be there. He is truly sorry, regretful, and repentant and doesn�t want to have anything to do with her. I see that.

CL � I can see why you added that to your Inspiration Notebook. It�s so true. . . thank you for sharing that with me!

EM

Hi Edie....

I can imagine that you would be weary of this go 'round. I think counseling can be highly overrated and sometimes detrimental. Your H is doing the 'work'...he's having a hard time with his 'feelings' and that's normal.

Why don't YOU get the help...and I'd suggest Laurie here....not for $$$ reasons, but she really is an expert and wonderful at this....and if you push him to the counseling....you may wear out the love he has left. At the end of the day...it's the two of you that need to build more joy, more love together....not work on changing something about him.

What are the things that give him joy.....you just do them. What are the things that give you joy? you just do them.

More counseling is more depressing and less joyful....it's more of the one on one...fix him thing. After all the counseling is done.....what you will have to do, is figure out what are the fun things, the loving things you can do together....NOT what things you have to get out of the way before you can do those things together.

Just do them. Don't talk about them. Just do them. Take him by the hand and go to a movie. Or go bowling. Or whatever it is. Life is way too short.

Quote:

I can imagine that you would be weary of this go 'round. I think counseling can be highly overrated and sometimes detrimental. Your H is doing the 'work'...he's having a hard time with his 'feelings' and that's normal.

Yes, I am weary of this. H is doing the work, and I�m very pleased about that. He has put more effort in, in the last 6 months than I have seen him put him in the six years we have been married. I am quite impressed. He told me a few weeks ago that he isn�t getting the help for me; he�s doing it for him. Just like when he quit his job he told me he wasn�t doing it for me, he was doing it for him. At first I was taken aback by that, yet, really it is very healthy. He *should* be doing this for him. That�s where he should be, and he is. I know his counseling is working because he has said he feels more clear minded now, than he has since we�ve been married.

Quote:

Why don't YOU get the help...and I'd suggest Laurie here....not for $$$ reasons, but she really is an expert and wonderful at this....and if you push him to the counseling....you may wear out the love he has left. At the end of the day...it's the two of you that need to build more joy, more love together....not work on changing something about him.

I am not pushing him to counseling at all. I don�t even talk about him going or us going together. I only comment if he broaches the subject. There was a time, early on, when I would beg him to go � I learned my lesson there � cheeseless tunnel to say the least. He did go though when he was ready. But you are right, we do need to build more joy and love together � our focus seems to be on the wrong thing. I think we�ve been putting out fires for so long that living joyfully has been forgotten.

That�s not to say that we don�t do fun stuff together � we do. I just feel as though there is an undercurrent of something not being quite right. And I recognize this may be me and my own �stuff� and exist totally in my head and not with him.

Thanks, SG for your thoughts. I appreciate it!

Focus on the positive, stop trying to fix the negative . . .
This has become my focus for the past few months and I certainly feel better.

I am frequently surprised at how long piecing takes. I guess it's because I'm waiting on my H. And I do feel like I'm waiting on him.

I am weary. I can't fix anything. Our M was irretrievably broken. We have many positives now. But it's still difficult, and there is still something missing - the spark. It's gone.

What do you do when the spark is gone? What happens when you are in a relationship and the spark is not there? I've had this happen in dating relationships, but what happens when it is in your marriage?

I believe in my vows. I even believe in my husband. But I don't want to live like this. I want to have romance, and sparks, and heat, and passion, and children . . . and yet, I can't fathom being intimate with him. I can't imagine what that would be like � and it�s been years � almost FOUR years!
And then I worry. I worry that we will never have *that* kind of marriage. That this is all there is - a deep friendship that at best will one day be solid and fully built on mutual respect. But I don't want *just* that.

As usual, I'm trying to "level" up and my H is just not there yet. Will I ever feel like I�m not just pulling him along on this ride? Will I ever feel like we are on the same page? Will I have children? Time is marching on - I turn 35 in '10. I'm worried. I'm scared. I don't want to wake up at 40, childless, in a really great friendship-marriage.

What is our next step? I have no idea how to get where I want to be. . .

double post

EM,

If you want to stay in this marriage, and you want children, then you can adopt. During the interview process they will ask why you can't have children of your own, and you will need to explain that. But it can be done.

Wow! Been awhile. Nothing like a newbie to pull me out of the woodwork - new posters just tug away at my heart.

Passion-LESS. I keep banging this drum, I know. Things have gotten better. Not steamy, not even smoldery, more like we're thinking if we want a fire we better begin gathering kindling and logs, and so we are. Make sense? We have great cuddle sessions. Great hugging. Great fun together. And I see us getting closer. We talk about the LESS part of our R, which is great. And I don't get frustrated and walk away.

He keeps telling me that I need to share more of me with him. That I need to open up more and tell him how I feel about stuff. That's really difficult for me. But I'm working on it.

SOmetimes it's really hard for me to share stuff when I don't know what it is I feel. Or even what it is I think or want. Sometimes I feel like I am walking around in a fog. I keep trying to clear my head and truly focus on what it is I want/feel/think.

I think journaling more will help with that.

All in all tho, I truly don't have many complaints. H is good, we're good. I'm working on being more honest with me and with him - that will definitely help all the way around.

happy easter and passover all!

EM,
I remember reading your posts quite some time ago.
Has your hubby gotten a new job?
Are you moving to New England?
Did I read correctly, it's been four years since any sex? And you want to have children?

Hi June -
yeah, I post from time to time and read from time to time.
I feel like this piecing thing just takes so long and sometimes I feel really discouraged. Lurking around here seems to help.

I feel like H and I are doing well, but yes, no sex, and yes we both want kids. We're gearing up for some heavy duty counseling - I'm sure. Lots of postives here though: we're talking about the sex issue - HUGE plus - and without fighting - another HUGE plus - and both owning our own issues. We both are hesitant. I'm grossed out and so is he. We've got to somehow get through this. We've also both been dealing with bouts of depression, so I'm sure that's contributing to it all as well.

H quit his job last year, but doesn't have a new one. And that's ok with both of us. He's spent the last year in counseling and handling a lot of his issues. He ended up in a pretty deep depression last year and was unable to work. He's starting to get bored around here, though, and that is a really good sign. We'll see what happens with his work.

We are not moving. At least not anytime soon. We're here for the long haul and both of us are comfortable with that decision.

ETA: I was able to journal a lot this past week and that helped me get some perspective on how I feel about our situation. I realized I have some anger that I need to work through and I have some trust issues. I was also able to share how I felt with H without him asking what was bothering me and that was a huge plus in terms of building intimacy with him. Just wanted to remind myself that journaling worked!

EM,
I am sorry to be negative here...
but... this man many countless times crossed boundaries, how many times have you set boundaries and not followed through, you gave up an opportunity to move away, counselors stated to you that you should leave. You are hoping for children but are with a man who:
1. Suffers serious "issues" and severe depression
2. Does not have a job, nor looking for one
3. Has not had sex with you for many YEARS!!!!!
4. Seems content with the status quo and is extremely slow to change, if at all

Do you think this man would be good, solid father material? Dependable, responsible, reliable? A good role model?

I guess I have to ask you. What are you not worth more? You had stated a while back that you thought he married down. Well, do you still feel this way? Your absolutely wrong you know. Why are you content to settle? Fear, guilt, inertia, lack of confidence, insecurity, poor self esteem?

What do YOU find desirable in this man? What trait or qualities? How long are you going to live with less than you deserve? How is he filling YOUR needs?

You have anger and trust issues with this man? Well, hell yeah!! He treated you so very, very wrong for such a long time and the worst of it. He is still treating you this way.

I know you may want to "mother" or "care-take" this man. It is not healthy. Are you co-dependant?

How can you be with a man that has not had sex with you for years and you would like to be sexually active and have children? How?

I don't want to be blunt here... but you are missing you window for getting pregnant. Once you hit 35 it gets harder and the chances of a risker pregnancy goes up. Why are you squandering your opportunity to have children, waiting on this man!!!!!

Where instead you could be moved on onto a HEALTHY relationship with a man who loves you and takes ACTIONS to make YOU HAPPY! Do you see the one sided dynamic here?

I am so sorry for the harsh post. I really am. I just see a woman who is living less that she should be and hoping for more and...IDK, what do you say when you see something so fundamentally wrong.

Even in the eyes of God and your church you are justified to end the marriage b/c
1. He has a very long affair
2. He has not had sex with you for many years

So what gives, can you please tell me why you are with him?

Am I missing something here?

Again, I am truly sorry to "stomp on your progress" I just have a totally different opinion of things

You are worth better woman, why don't you get this?

You feel discouraged b/c the situation has changed very little for you. You needs are still not being met and I am certain that several years from now. You could possibly be stuck in the same place. WAITING..... HOPING....FRUSTATED.....
Realizing that life has quickly passed you by and you lived it not the way you have wanted. Your real life has been on hold waiting for your huband, well, to be a husband. It seems like you are living your life for him and not for you. Are you grasping for the dream of what could have been? Stuck in a loop?

You have given years of your life to a man who does not appreciate you (b/c if he knew how you felt, if he knew how many sacrifies you have made for him) he would never leave you in this spot. He would move heaven and earth to make things right by you.

He is not doing that. You deserve more, you deserve what other wives are getting, nothing less.

Wow, reread my post. I don't mean to come off so strong. I have a tendency to do that. Sorry.

I just feel very "strongly" (for lack of a better word) that you are not getting what you deserve out of life here....

my ol' battle buddy, hope counceling works out, perhaps there is a medical issue? it'd be like taking a cat to a tub, men hate drs. but is there a chance he can get himself checked?
Anyways hon, all the best to you! I rarely come here anymore, i'm in FB with a few peeps from here, hugs and I'll say a prayer for you tonight))))

ps, if you have Aud's FB info i'm her friend there.