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Posted By: sage Looking backward but only to move forward SEVEN - 02/03/08 03:20 AM
Wow, do I even know how to do this anymore? (I mean the literal and figurative aspects of posting).

My last thread is here:

Looking backward but only to look forward SIX

Things are, well, good in many ways, better in my marriage in some ways, and worse in my marriage in others. How's that for cryptic? I consider myself a reasonably accomplished, organized, intelligent person and I cannot fathom why I am unable to seem to swing the mom-hood (she's almost 2!) and the wife-hood and the person-hood. I almost told h today how much I missed what I think of as our post-DB marriage (truly wonderful and happy)...I wish I had now because we had a HUGE fight later on...over eggs (or lack thereof if you can imagine) and I feel horrible and he was livid and I swear it was like the old days...him feeling as though he is trapped and challenged and questioned and misunderstood and me, well me, just feeling like crap.

I know my sitch isn't comparable to so many on the boards so I'm not expecting out outpouring but I swear compared to how we were pre-pregnancy, well, this just s**ks.

I need the program, I need to get my head screwed on straight. I was thinking tonight...is it really that much more effort to do things right? (My excuse in my head is always that I can't try more because I have no time and energy...but I almost think the way I WAS doing things was far less time consuming than this return to crapdom).

I really, really want my marriage back.

Sage
cI know my sitch isn't comparable to so many on the boards [/quote]
Hon, you dont' have to be a horror story to want some support. Being a fist time parent is very draining, it's brand new spanking ground and we learn as we go.

Quote:
I am unable to seem to swing the mom-hood (she's almost 2!) and the wife-hood and the person-hood.

it's tricky and hard. Personally, I made the mistake of making lots of assumptions "oh, H will understand that I'm too tired or not have time for him, etc etc)
I can only offer those basic pointers you get everywhere: make sure you guys have time alone without baby talk, your bedroom shouldn't have any baby toys in it, even if you really can't afford it try and get a sitter weekly/byweekly to go out.
Do something just for yourself (workout class/reading group,etc)
Dress nice and put on make up, stay away from baggy sweats :P
Hi hon.
In our case it was orange juice, not eggs ;\)
Somehow, in my H's mind, I was solely responsible for keeping the orange juice supply current. And if he had to - HORRORS - have breakfast without orange juice one morning, well, I was criminally negligent in my wifely duties.

What does it all mean? Well, I think there are a variety of factors that need to be looked at:

- his need to feel cared for. Men so tritely feel "neglected" when motherhood is sapping your energies. I know that's part of why the OJ issue was so big for my H; it's what it represented, that I wasn't thinking about caring for him. Reread the 5 Love Languages and figure out where best to put your limited energies to help him feel loved.

- sex. Face it, when things are going well in the bedroom at night, things during the day seem to go smoother. (Hard to yell at a woman who just gave you a great orgasm, or vice versa).

- get help. The best investment H and I ever made was getting a housekeeper to come in once every 2 weeks. Are there parts of your domestic chores you could outsource to keep the house running more smoothly and your time less stressed?

- dates. You two need a regular night out without the baby. I know it's hard, because you're working you want to spend all your available time with her, but it's important to HER welfare for her parents to have a good marriage.

- realistic expectations. Forget that whole "women can do it all" silliness we grew up with. A full time job plus motherhood equals two full time jobs. It's tough. Get creative. What are the areas of friction? What tends to fall between the cracks?

- take time for yourself. Make it a priority. I used to think I was being selfless by putting everybody in the family's needs before myself. Know what? My H didn't respect me for it.

Ellie
So what are your goals?

BEGIN WITH THE MIND OF A BEGINNER \:\)
hi)

what was different how you were pre-pregnancy?
(1) So, what, did H take too long picking up eggs and you were suspicious? If so, don't dismiss your intuitions too easily. You know as well as anyone that if you think an EA or PA is going on, it almost certainly is.

(2) Withholding being a good spouse is just like withholding sex. You are going to wind up with a lousy marriage, no matter how justified your resentment leading to the withholding behavior.

(3) Your H needs to grow up and feel/act like a good, strong, responsible, effective man. There is no way my XH could have done that with me. I made sure I fixed everything, averted all catastrophies, kept things working day to day, and so on. There was no space for him to be of significant importance in making sure our lives went well. I doubt I could have made space either. For it would have required me to function at too low a level. I take it XH has found that space with his new wife who is great in many ways, but certainly functions at a lower level in terms of some life skills. Why can't your H grow up and feel/act like a good, strong, responsible, effective man in your life?
Originally Posted By: kml
Hi hon.
In our case it was orange juice, not eggs ;\)
Somehow, in my H's mind, I was solely responsible for keeping the orange juice supply current. And if he had to - HORRORS - have breakfast without orange juice one morning, well, I was criminally negligent in my wifely duties.

What does it all mean? Well, I think there are a variety of factors that need to be looked at:

- his need to feel cared for. Men so tritely feel "neglected" when motherhood is sapping your energies. I know that's part of why the OJ issue was so big for my H; it's what it represented, that I wasn't thinking about caring for him. Reread the 5 Love Languages and figure out where best to put your limited energies to help him feel loved.

- sex. Face it, when things are going well in the bedroom at night, things during the day seem to go smoother. (Hard to yell at a woman who just gave you a great orgasm, or vice versa).

- get help. The best investment H and I ever made was getting a housekeeper to come in once every 2 weeks. Are there parts of your domestic chores you could outsource to keep the house running more smoothly and your time less stressed?

- dates. You two need a regular night out without the baby. I know it's hard, because you're working you want to spend all your available time with her, but it's important to HER welfare for her parents to have a good marriage.

- realistic expectations. Forget that whole "women can do it all" silliness we grew up with. A full time job plus motherhood equals two full time jobs. It's tough. Get creative. What are the areas of friction? What tends to fall between the cracks?

- take time for yourself. Make it a priority. I used to think I was being selfless by putting everybody in the family's needs before myself. Know what? My H didn't respect me for it.

Ellie


Ellie, you rock!

Sage, hang in there. It's just another obstacle in the road. You are one of the strongest women I've known, and I know you can get through this.

Hope today is going better for you. (((((((HUGS)))))))

Valerie (formerly JV)
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to post and run (or whine and run) in my case (!!) but after I posted I just couldn't face coming back knowing how much work I have to do. Doesn't that sound awful? Sage of the color-coded goals, who would spend hours tackling the most minute of 180s?

Old timer, your point #2 "
(2) Withholding being a good spouse is just like withholding sex. You are going to wind up with a lousy marriage, no matter how justified your resentment leading to the withholding behavior." was a nice little wake-up call and a good counterpoint to my DB-laziness.

So, to address some of the points well made ...

Ellie and Cat, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that we do go out 3-4 times a month (and we still can't keep harmony???!!! :-) ). It's costing us a fortune (cheaper than therapy I suppose) but we are lucky enough to have a great babysitter come usually 1x/week. Now, interestingly, LAST weekend (when I posted) Charlotte was sick so we were not able to go out.

Firekeeper, you asked how I was different pre-pregnancy and Oldtimer you said "Why can't your H grow up and feel/act like a good, strong, responsible, effective man in your life?", well the answer is that while DB'ing I learned to slow down, stop taking over everything, give h some space to be in charge, let him do things at his own pace and then I gave him oodles of appreciation for it. A win all around. Simply put, I'm much higher energy than he is so if something "needed" to be done, I did it and then resented him for not doing more. When I was actively DB'ing I re-wrote what it "needed" meant and started waiting longer before doing something and then h would get around to do it and I would lavish praise AND be happy about not having to do everything. That doesn't feel so simple to me now.

This is the MOST trivial, stupid, lameA$$ example but here goes: Charlotte is in daycare near my work, 40 minutes from home. H gets home most days around 5:30, I get home 45-60 minutes later with the girl. There's a good chance that she is going to "need" to eat pretty soon after walking in the door (despite the snack I feed her in the car on the way home)...do you see where this is going? Even though I spend time on the weekends cooking meals in advance so that we have stuff in the fridge, h seems to find it impossible to pull dinner together so that I don't walk in the door with a toddler clinging to my leg and have to work at dinner. Or, more honestly, he's able to do it for a day or two in a row and then he stops and then I complain and then...I KNOW it's stupid. and I KNOW that pre-DB I would have taken about 5 steps backwards and let him figure out that if he doesn't pull dinner together, we don't eat, and after enough time he would figure that out and start making dinner and I would be happy and praise him, etc.

Firekeeper, we just had a TON more time together pre-baby. H is a quality time guy through and through and not getting my undivided attention as much is taking its toll on him.

Valerie, thank you SO MUCH. You guys are all giving me the motivation to get my head screwed on straight.

Old timer, I'm not suspicious of an EA/PA at the moment. It's actually been a refreshing feeling of late as there have been moments in the last few years where I could not say that.

So, in all honesty, for all of my irritation, h has been doing more and is great with Charlotte. It just feels like pulling teeth sometimes. I can't quite answer the probing question about goals :-) quite yet but I can tell you the things that I think are in my power to change that are messing us up:

1. I feel angry, resentful, and/or impatient with h quite frequently.

2. I'm tired and spent and use that to justify not trying harder with h.

3. I feel disconnected from him and actually from a lot of people lately. This is reminiscent of pre-DB'ing when I just felt impatient with the world in general. I want to get back to a more peaceful state of mind.

4. Our sex life is non-existent. It would be easy for me to tell you that this is him not me but as we all know, it ain't that simple. What am I doing (or not) that's keeping him from being interested? (See anger, resentment and impatient comment above to start!)

5. He doesn't get my full attention at home even when it's just the two of us. By the time we get time together in the evening I just want to curl up and relax or read (or try to clean the house or get stuff done for tomorrow, etc.). Gone are the days when I would sit in rapt attention for him.

6. In general there's so much more tension and stress and chaos in the house than there was during DB'ing. Yes, the 30 inch 2 year old has lots to do with this but I've let it spill over into areas it doesn't need to.

OK, that's enough to start. I should probably do some work :-)

Back with goals soon (no more hiding my head in the sand!).

Sage

hi sage,

whining is ok if you have a plan how to do it different next time and you are developing it)

a little one will be a consideration for a while in terms of time, energy, etc. so i wonder if you can use it as an asset for a husband's desire for quality time - to engage in the activities in the community or with friends where three of you are having fun (major requirement). i would imagine you are already doing it so may be to do it more or more fun ones, where you and your husband can laugh at each other and at the little one and then look at each other and be happy to parent together. when my kids were little i would find tons of fun staff in a local parent newspaper or through libraries or community centers, a lot of it was for free.
Hi Sage...how are you?
Hey Sage,

Glad to see you here but not so happy to see that you are struggling again.

Maybe a good start before facing the big bad wolf of goal setting would be to go back to the basics and remind yourself of what IS good in your m and your family. That after all it is what got you going on a positive spin way back when. If you can list what you and h are already doing right then the where you would like to get to wont seem as far away.

Hang in there...You've got something worth working on,

LL
How are you, Sage?

And when was the last time you had a checkup?

I'm asking because my BFF just told me that she's off of wheat. She was feeling SO tired all the time, and her skin was breaking out really badly. This has been going on for years. Her doctor said that he is mildly allergic to wheat and had those same symptoms, so she stopped eating it for a while. The difference was obvious in one day. Then she went back on it to see if the wheat was really the bad guy--and it was.

So rule out the physical stuff while you're setting your goals. You're tough enough to do this, woman.
5. He doesn't get my full attention at home even when it's just the two of us. By the time we get time together in the evening I just want to curl up and relax or read (or try to clean the house or get stuff done for tomorrow, etc.). Gone are the days when I would sit in rapt attention for him.


Girl please. Those details are not as important. If you don't have the affair with your H, eventually, someone else will.
OK I s*&k that I post and run. Honestly, the word "run" at the time was not a misnomer...I was thinking "I need to be DB'ing" and was paralyzed...when did THAT happen??? Sigh. In the long run, though, I guess I was doing ok because h had a major job-related meltdown of epic proportions a week or so ago...back to ranting, raving, telling me he was going to quit his job the next day, completely screwed up some very important (really) plans of mine...but all I learned DB'ing reminded me to keep my mouth shut, keep my stress level to myself, etc. etc. The next day he surprised me with flowers and told me that I had had every chance to rail at him and hurt him in retaliation and I didn't...that I knew how vulnerable he was and didn't take advantage...I guess I do know what I'm doing after all.

I think of posting multiple times a day. I honestly don't know what the heck keeps me from it...yah, time, but it feels like more than that...I think it's fear...of going back to how it was and reliving it all. He said something yesterday that reminded me of "then" and I ached from remembering it. Also, a friend of mine just went through his wife having an EA (it appears that they are on the mend) and it was just so painful to hear his hurt. Painful but productive, actually.

SG, I KNOW I need to romance h. I truly know that. I need to actually do it, however.

AMD, it HAS been a while since the checkup...I will say that I just started exercising again and it appears to making a huge difference in my mood so you are right on!

LL...you are a wise woman! Yup, I'm goal oriented, but listing positives is really what got me off many a DB plateau...here goes...

1. I truly believe that h and I have a solid foundation based on our history together but also on the hard work we did rebuilding our marriage.

2. QT = good times for us. Spending time together WORKS.

3. Despite the proverbial "terrible twos", every day with Charlotte is better, more fun, and slightly easier on us.

4. We know what works for us even if we don't always do it.

5. I built up an enormous amount of goodwill DB'ing.

6. I do believe that my h, in general, feels accepted by me.

7. H is a good man, who wants to be appreciated and loved and knowing that I can make him see it is so.

8. I am SO MUCH less reactive now than I was pre-DBing.

9. Once I get past whatever blind spot is tripping me up, I can almost always see the issue right away.

10. I've got oodles of Db'ing experience...that can only help. :-)

Sage
Looks like your headed in the right direction. Keep at it.
Glad to hear all these positives. You done good.
Sage....how are you? I hope your silence means you're so tired from being frisky with your H \:\)
Yes. What is the story Sage?
so what's new?

I'm here...I wouldn't say there's much (any) friskiness going on at home...that is our biggest problem right now to be sure...but things are definitely much, much better. A lot of it is simply the passage of time and that Charlotte is getting older and in many ways, easier to handle (of course, there is that "tantrum as only a 2.5 YO can throw" side of her...). h and I are definitely acting as much more of a team than we were in the early days of having her around. :-) I see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm going to try to be around more...we'll see how that works out! And I definitely need to hang out in the SSM area to see what tips they have :-)

Sage
Check your email, girl.
Originally Posted By: sage
I'm here...I wouldn't say there's much (any) friskiness going on at home...that is our biggest problem right now to be sure...but things are definitely much, much better. A lot of it is simply the passage of time and that Charlotte is getting older and in many ways, easier to handle (of course, there is that "tantrum as only a 2.5 YO can throw" side of her...). h and I are definitely acting as much more of a team than we were in the early days of having her around. :-) I see light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm going to try to be around more...we'll see how that works out! And I definitely need to hang out in the SSM area to see what tips they have :-)

Sage



so what can you do to up the friskiness
KML -- I DID finally check but never heard back from you...write again?

Sara
Hi sage....how are you?
SG -- I'm ok. Sorry I've been MIA again. I'm committed to doing more around here.

Home kind of blows right now. For the last few weeks h has been not feeling great which leads to two things for him -- being depressed and essentially ceasing to do pretty much anything to help out -- which in turn makes me alternatively bummed out and pissed. The mood right now is very reminiscent of the "pre-bomb" mood which stinks. It's amazing how quickly I am reminded of that time even though it is 6+ years ago.

Trying to give him some space which is probably a good idea else I'll strangle him. It's always a fine line, though, because he wants his space but he also wants to be wanted. Insert emoticon of Sage doing a tightrope dance here ;\)

I'm actually back here today to re-read some old threads if you can believe it...perhaps I will be inspired.

Sage
Ok, wow, I can't access my old threads. ugh! The furthest I can go back is right after Charlotte was born so all I'm able to read is me ranting about how much work I'm doing, how little h is doing, how depressed we all are about that, how wonderful Charlotte is, and how I want to get my M back on track but lack the stamina for it.

Yikes. I could just say "ditto" right now. :-( I don't want to go down in history THAT way!

I seriously need to get my DB act together.
OK, found a bunch of my old threads using the search function. Looks like I should be able to retrieve them all, if only for my own use.

I just spent a little time reading one from around 10/2004 and let me just say -- WHOA-- no wonder hubby is feeling a little out of sorts....I have gone from focused, committed, and really loving to, well, busy, distracted, etc. I'm not saying it's particularly possible or necessary to keep up the lovefest 24/7 with all else going on (um, kid...not quite 3 YO) but honestly, I think I had truly forgotten how focused and dedicated I was to turning the M around. And a lot of the stuff that I just read wasn't super human effort but more like an attitude...of wanting to do the right thing by him, of trying to make things positive for him, of wanting to speak his LL, etc.

Egads. I have my work cut out for me.

Sage
Well if nothing else you can see you've done this once before, you know what to do again. Refocus and do it again. Re-correcting is much simpler than rebuilding.
Agreed. Attitude is everything, as they say.

Sage, look at the words at the end of your signature line. They are your guidelines.

What one thing did you do today to make the shift?

Be well.
Egads...two weeks since I posted? Hiya AMD and PS

I'm back with goals...thought them up this AM...

I've always been a big fan of having 3 goals...1 for me, 1 for the "M" in general, and 1 to specifically address something that's bugging h...

1. (Me) Get back in shape and lose the 15 lbs that have been dogging me for years. I really, really need to do this to a) feel better about myself and b) get up the nerve to start initiating w/h again (that's a whole other post). I signed up for WW online and today is day 1, so far so good. And, I went to the gym this AM and started my "couch potato to 5K" running program again. I'm jazzed up about this.

2. (Marriage in general) This may not seem particularly meaningful to most but I need to stop talking so much. My talking right now is doing a couple of negative things: a) Preventing me from listening (and showing attention to h) b) Keeping h from having the room to talk and c) seriously impacting h's relationship with Charlotte. She is SO attached to me that she goes to me for everything...I need to give them more space to relate and one thing that would definitely help is if I didn't feel the need to talk ALL THE TIME.

There's plenty of other goals to be addressed M-wise but this is a good start.

3. (Addressing an issue of h's). Gotta start cleaning/decluttering the house. I realized this AM that the reason why h isn't helping out anymore is that he's checked out because he doesn't think I'm taking his issues with the clutter around the house seriously. IOW, he's thinking "well, I've complained about it and she's not fixing it so I'm out of the game." How did I forget this about my husband? I know if I make a concerted effort to start cleaning/decluttering that he will evenutally get engaged. I just need to take the first step.

So, in summary:
1. Diet/exercise to lose weight/get fit
2. STOP talking
3. START cleaning

HNY to you all -- how is everyone?

Sage
great goals!

Happy New Year, sage!
Thanks, SG.

Hey, I was going to email you...I don't seem to be able to lock threads successfully or even find the M forums...no worries if I've been kicked off the M team :-)

All is going GREAT with my goals...

I'm doing really well w/#1 -- WW day four and have done 3 days of exercise out of 4. Yay!

The listening (#2) is not 100% better but is definitely getting there. I'm doing really well truly listening to h...not so much if Charly is around.

Decluttering is tougher...off to accomplish 15 minutes of it right now.

sage
These sound like some great goals. I hope your successful.
Things are mostly going well here. I'm doing GREAT with my diet/exercise goal -- have lost a few pounds and feel terrific and really motivated.

Not so much decluttering which is BAD -- I KNOW if I just do it for a few minutes I'll get into it but I'm so drained that I just don't start. I NEED to get back to this -- especially as when I did do it for a few days, H noticed and commented on it.

Listening goal...well, I'm doing sort of ok with this except when the topic is a difficult one and then I'm back to my bad habits. H is talking about quitting his job and starting his own practice. I literally feel sick when he talks about it...um, why would you quit a stable job that pays us a stable salary and has low or no chance of resulting in firing or getting laid off in the midst of the worst economic climate since the Depression? That makes NO SENSE to me and I still haven't come up with a way to convey that that isn't going to scream "I'm not supportive of you" to him (he has heightened sensitivity to that). I was just starting to feel as though we were getting our financial feet back under us and now this. UGH.

So, then, gotta re-focus on the listening. I'll also add the goal of spending more quiet time with H (even though my head is reeling with thoughts of a jillion things to do). We have a long weekend ahead of us so that should help.

Sara
Your goals sound excellent! Remember that these are baby steps for you, too. How's it going now?
Well, it's been 2 months since I posted my goals...Easy enough to update them:

1. Diet/exercise to lose weight/get fit

SUCCESS! I've been doing WW since the beginning of the year and not only started the "couch potato to 5K" running program but COMPLETED it and have moved onto the "gateway to 8K" running program. I've lost about 13 lbs, and am up to running 3.6mi. I'm working out 5 days a week. Yay! I feel really good although the last few weeks I haven't lost any weight...I've been slacking a bit so I need to get rejuvenated. I've got about 3-8 lbs left to go so it's time to get re-motivated! A wonderful offshoot? H also started WW and exercising and he's lost about 30lbs!

2. STOP talking

Er...not so good. If DB'ing has taught me one thing (and it's actually taught me many), it's the power of making small changes in my own behavior to encourage changes in h's behavior. It's also taught me how my own crappy behavior can derail even the best of intentions. I am in full on "acting on every bad habit I've essentially ever had relationshipwise" mode which should make it easy to see some improvement.

3. START cleaning

UGH. Not good here, either. Again, I think would speak volumes to h so I need to get to it.

Updated goals:

1. Continue exercising and doing WWs to lose the remaining lbs.

2. Focus on small behavior changes that will have a large impact on relationship with h:
a. LISTEN MORE. SHUT UP. STOP TALKING! This will entail my getting back to my habit of saying about 50% of what I want to say. Especially off limits are comments on h's relationship with DD, negative/sarcastic comments about anything, leading/questioning comments.

b. FOCUS on h when I am with him. Make him, listening to him, relating to him, being with him a priority.

c. STOP scorekeeping. If I need a break, ask for it. STOP making out schedules in my head that show how much I'm doing vs how much he does.

d. Make time for in-house dates (we're doing well with dates outside of the house!). This could have a HUGE impact if I would find some time to make a special meal, suggest watching a show he's interested in, etc.

e. Start meditating again. I KNOW this helps me with anger and cluttered thinking...why aren't I doing it?


3. START CLEANING. 15 minutes a day, no excuses. Just do this. H will LOVE it.

Sage
D day was in 2002 (November) and with time, lots and lots of DB'ing and "self-improvement" and work, our marriage got really, really strong and enjoyable and lovely. I can't recall the exact timing of it but certainly by 2004+, we were really, truly enjoying ourselves, being married, being together, etc.

I was thinking this AM about how truly happy we were then and it was a serious reality check. I really doubt that either one of us would claim to be "REALLY" happy right now. We certainly love each other, and I believe we are both committed to our marriage (and our daughter) but the shiny happiness, and honestly, the desire to make each other happy in that way has been severely depleted over the last few years. The good news is that I think for both of us, it's still recent enough, still in our bones a bit, that I don't think we've forgotten it's possible to feel that way about each other. At least, I hope he hasn't forgotten it's possible to feel that way. I hope he knows it's possible to get it back again.

1. Continue exercising and doing WWs to lose the remaining lbs.

did well with this yesterday and today so far.

2. Focus on small behavior changes that will have a large impact on relationship with h:
a. LISTEN MORE. SHUT UP. STOP TALKING! This will entail my getting back to my habit of saying about 50% of what I want to say. Especially off limits are comments on h's relationship with DD, negative/sarcastic comments about anything, leading/questioning comments.


Better on this yesterday (haven't had much of a chance today) but I still have to keep on my toes with this.

b. FOCUS on h when I am with him. Make him, listening to him, relating to him, being with him a priority.


Ditto.

c. STOP scorekeeping. If I need a break, ask for it. STOP making out schedules in my head that show how much I'm doing vs how much he does.

Did well with this yesterday. No issues today so far.

d. Make time for in-house dates (we're doing well with dates outside of the house!). This could have a HUGE impact if I would find some time to make a special meal, suggest watching a show he's interested in, etc.

Watched a show with him last night but bolted to bed once it was over....work on slowing down.


e. Start meditating again. I KNOW this helps me with anger and cluttered thinking...why aren't I doing it?


3. START CLEANING. 15 minutes a day, no excuses. Just do this. H will LOVE it.


Did 15 mins of each of these yesterday. Yay!

Other thoughts...I feel that I'm so angry of late...not just at h but at the world. I know that I can work on changing my attitude. I think he's getting used to "angry sage" and I want to show him that "happy sage" is the one to hang out with. I have to be careful, though, not to bottle things up so that "angry sage" comes flying out!

I feel truly remotivated. I know I've said this before but this time it does feel different. I want my joyful marriage back.

Sage
Part of me is feeling calm, focused, able to DB again and part of me is feeling a little freaked out by the realization of how far we've drifted from our "peak". I don't know...maybe there are marriages out there that are smooth sailing day in and day out but I feel like once you've experienced the bomb dropping it's hard to let your guard down...or, in my case, it was hard to let it down, then I totally let it down (and stopped working hard, paying attention, etc.) and now I'm panicking a wee bit that it's too late. sigh.

Anyway, yesterday was mostly good -- I did fine on exercise/diet, did 15 minutes of cleaning (tho' I picked something that was not out in the open so I'm the only one who would notice..), and meditated. I tried to be open, listening, loving, warm to h. I think I did a good job but internally I had a tough time when he was very abrupt with Charlotte over a few things. But I kept my mouth shut and my opinions to myself! (and I think I kept my body language very neutral).

I am the WORSE declutterer. I wish I had the neat gene...would be easier to keep things clean at home.

Sage
Hi sage, I empathize with your goals. There's a lot to work on!

In this last week I've heard 'be in the now' and 'be in the moment' from a lot of sources. I'm trying to slow my mind down long enough to listen and heed the advice. My mind is too far forward, I have to bring it back to 'now', and enjoy life for the moment I am living.

There is always so much to do, but we need to remember to enjoy the moments we are in. Charlotte is growing up and you'll be wondering where all those years went so fast!

Where can we apply for the neat gene? \:\)
Hey WCW!

I'm so glad to "see" you!

I am woefully lacking in the NEAT gene...it is awful. I think in part it has to do with my cluttered mind :-) or maybe my brilliant mind - haha -- I can think of ten different places where a particular thing "should" go (screwdriver goes to toolbox, kitchen drawer, upstairs to be in a handy place, etc.) so I never put it away. UGH.

Remind me...do you meditate? I'm back to it and I swear...4 days of 10 minutes a day and I can already FEEL the difference in my brain.

Feeling more optimistic today...still doing well on diet/exercise, am doing a good job of "listening" and being calm, scrubbed the shower floor last night as my cleaning exercise, etc. We have a date tomorrow night so that should be a big help, too. Looking forward to it.

Sage
A much, much better weekend for us. I'm doing well with the fitness/diet and pretty well taking time out to meditate. I had two "gotchas" over the weekend in regards to how I've been relating to h -- at one point I completely overruled his input on something and that smarted once I saw what I had done as that USED to be a common occurrence, became a habit I had done a good job of breaking, and had recently started doing again.

Also, as I have been doing of late I got pissed when I ASSumed that he wasn't planning on spending QT with CGB after I had been with her all morning. Turns out I had jumped to the wrong conclusion but I didn't realize that until after I had gotten pissy. The good news is that that was a single event this weekend as opposed to recent memory when it has occurred much too often.

Need to get some good cleaning done. REALLY struggling with that.

Sage
Gearing up for the weekend. I'm planning on making it a good one. We have a date tomorrow night so I'm psyched for that, and I've got plans with my girl tomorrow AM so that should help h relax a bit.

Still doing great with the diet, doing well with the meditation, not so much at all with the cleaning. I am completely unmotivated. WHY? I need a plan.

h is in kind of a funk which is a bit worrisome as they tend to be contagious.

Sage
Already started the weekend off on the wrong foot. h was upstairs, I was downstairs doing something in the kitchen, c was screeching in the other room. I was ignoring it, h did not and yelled at her (from upstairs) to stop yelling...which made me laugh, unfortunately. He came down and said "I thought we were disciplining..." and instead of just keeping my mouth shut I shot back "You can discipline her too". he just left mad.

It's hard enough to swallow my retorts when it's just the two of us almost impossible with three...
Ahhh Zip thy lip ... Grasshopper

The kids are the biggest stressors in our relationship. NOt for me but him. To everyone else our kids are the bomb. Straight A's, respectful, speak like humans to all adults... he feels they don't resect him but when it's he and I everything is fine... so I feel ya.
SAGE! I am so glad to hear all this news from you. It is clear from what you write that you have a lot of DB principles ingrained in you--you recognize issues, you look at what you can change, you have a plan, and you're tracking your progress. I don't have kids myself, but I know that that's a huge stressor at times. Keep doing what you know you need to do, and cut yourself some slack occasionally.

Re. cleaning: would you ever consider a cleaning service? Maybe once every month or two? I'm thinking of my yard as I type this. If someone would come and just do all the big work for me once, I could maintain it after that.

Decluttering is different--more personal. For me, if I focus on one spot at a time, I can do that well, and I can see the difference right away, which inspires me to move on.

Would H help in this? A family effort once a month, maybe?

ANYWAY. You continue to inspire. Be well.
Keep working on what works. Work towards your goals. Just had to stop in and see how some of the old group were doing. Keep up the good work.
Oh, ugh, things not going great here. Had a big old fight with h this am and while I am demoralized and quite bummed, I suppose I did glean some information that could be used in DB'ing.

Here's what I learned:

1. h thinks I purposefully don't answer questions and/or that I withhold information from him in order to make a "point". I wasn't actually doing that this AM (well, not consciously) but I will admit that there are times when I am exasperated by his expecting me to have information that he "should" have.

Him (standing at the fridge with the door open): where is the XYZ?

Me (from 3 rooms away): Um, how would I know that?

Truth be told, I feel taken for granted -- that he assumes that I should keep track of everything for the whole *&^% family and I feel like he just doesn't appreciate it.

But. Sigh. That isn't the way to change this situation.

Goal: Respond to h's questions in a positive, and complete way. Answer what he asks (don't interpret).

2. h thinks that if he snaps at me that it's because I must have done something to "deserve" it (IOW, he never just "snaps" at me for no good reason).

Really? Really? Guess what pal...you snap at me ALL THE TIME...especially lately and I'm tired (as I told you this AM) of bearing the brunt of your bad moods.

But. Sigh. That isn't the way to change this situation.

Goal: Stop personalizing my perception of h's "mood" and responses to me. Let perceived slights roll off of me. Stop reacting negatively to him. Be less sensitive. Act "as if".

3. H thinks I don't support his dreams of having his own business. It's "always about money" with me, according to him.

Oh. My. God. Please go back to 2002 and remind yourself about the 4 years of not working (including 1 just pulling yourself together) and the 3 years (read: $$) of FT law school. I am proud of you and have done a lot (!!) to support and stand beside you as you followed your dreams. What I am reacting to NOW is a cash flow problem. And a lack of planning problem. And a "how will this work?" problem. And a "how about a few more details before you quit your *&&^% job" problem.

But. Sigh. That isn't the way to change this situation.

Goal: Listen to h's dreams of his own business with an open mind. Do NOT give into the knee jerk reaction of "that won't work because"....let him talk it through, get excited with him.

4. h is thoroughly NOT interested in "fixing" anything right now. He is interested in sleep, tv, sports, relaxation, diet soda, playing baseball, Charlotte, and a bunch of other things but he is NOT interested in me, appreciating me, spending time with me, kissing me goodbye before he leaves the house, etc. etc.

But. Sigh. That isn't the way to change this situation.

Goal: Amp up the appreciation of h and the quality time together (in a quiet way). Stop trying to control him...if he wants to kiss you goodbye, he will. Be open. Be warm. Think good thoughts.

Other goals:

Goal: Diet/exercise to lose weight/get fit

Continued success here. I haven't lost much more weight (still about 5lbs to go) but I've been doing WW and exercising and feel very good. I am remotivated to lose the final 5.

STOP talking

Still not so good. I'm trying to shut up, to listen more, to keep out of h's and Charlotte's relationship. Better, but not good enough.

START cleaning

I suck at this. Not good. I did do a bunch of yard work this weekend....

Focus on small behavior changes that will have a large impact on relationship with h:
a. LISTEN MORE. SHUT UP. STOP TALKING! This will entail my getting back to my habit of saying about 50% of what I want to say. Especially off limits are comments on h's relationship with DD, negative/sarcastic comments about anything, leading/questioning comments.

b. FOCUS on h when I am with him. Make him, listening to him, relating to him, being with him a priority.

c. STOP scorekeeping. If I need a break, ask for it. STOP making out schedules in my head that show how much I'm doing vs how much he does.

d. Make time for in-house dates (we're doing well with dates outside of the house!). This could have a HUGE impact if I would find some time to make a special meal, suggest watching a show he's interested in, etc.

e. Start meditating again. I KNOW this helps me with anger and cluttered thinking...why aren't I doing it?

Much room for improvement.

I can do this.

Sage
"Truth be told, I feel taken for granted -- that he assumes that I should keep track of everything for the whole *&^% family and I feel like he just doesn't appreciate it."

Uh gee, how about telling him this directly rather than going with the passive-aggressive bit?

Anyway, other than that, what is H doing to make the M work? Why are you still the M-caretaker? Why is there still no partnership? Why are you still the mommy of a petulant teen boy? That is a cycle you can most certainly break on your own.
Quote:
Why are you still the M-caretaker? Why is there still no partnership? Why are you still the mommy of a petulant teen boy? That is a cycle you can most certainly break on your own.
Does it have to be on your own? Is this something to have a convo with H about? Or is that too much talking?
I keep thinking of the statement I read somewhere that if you're not having an affair with your spouse, someone else will.

I'm not having an affair with my spouse. I love him and love the positive times that we spend together and I want more of them. But I'm guessing that he feels my anger and control more than my love, and I'm guessing he feels my disappointment more than my approval, and I'm guess that that he's not feeling particularly happy with our marriage at the moment either.

When DDay hit (egads, 8 years ago), I was blindsided and I decided that no matter what happened, I would clean up my act. I took a long, critical look (as that is my specialty) at my behavior in our marriage and while it didn't justify my husband's actions, it still felt wrong to me. I was behaving in ways that were not loving. I was behaving in ways that did not feel good or true to me. So, instead of battling his EA, etc, I took on my behavior. I worked on my anger and my controlling nature and my tendency to rule the roost and blame him for it, etc.

I find myself back in a similar situation. No, my husband hasn't cheated on me again but some things have come to pass in the last few months that have made me really, really angry and scared and upset, that have upped my controlling of him, and my criticism, and my unhappiness. 50% or even more of the time we're fine, but the rest of the time I am very unhappy and angry and I imagine he feels in a similar way.

So, I'm back, once again, to work on the only thing that I can control which is my behavior. I'm honestly more than a little scared about the whole thing...I find myself reverting back to an angry stance over and over and over again. I find myself wondering what it would be like to not be together with him. And I know from past experience that I do NOT want to only recognize the value of our marriage once it is in jeopardy of being taken from me.

I hardly know where to start. Well, of course I know where to start. My anger. And my desire to control pretty much everything because I feel like he can't. I want to let go and convince myself that I don't know how but of course I do. You let go by letting go. Or, I let go by not doing things anymore. By not being the first to rush to a solution.

My top three things that need to be tackled:

1. My anger at him and how it manifests itself. NEVER in a rush or emotion that results in screaming or a confrontation. It's a silent rage that I feel but it's hardly silent in the way it is communicated to him. Anger, hurt, disappointment, sadness, fear all get transmitted to him but without words.

2. My desire to control everything. Born out of the fact that much of my life feels completely out of my control thanks to some things that have happened. Once again, my safety net is gone. I realized yesterday that the thing I want most from him is security and it feels as though he goes out of his way to prevent me from having it. I'm not saying it's RIGHT for me to expect it from him, just saying it is what it is.

3. My inability to ask for what I want plainly. This is born out of the scorekeeping that I've been doing for 3.5+ years, largely related to our daughter and who does what for her. I keep score in my head all the time and then get mad when it's so darned clear (least to me!) how much MORE I do -- house, work, kid, whatever. Here's the deal...either I should do the stuff because I WANT to do it (primarily hanging with the kid!) and stop bitching about it or I should ask for more help.

What happens is this...

I do something (take kid out all day, for example, so hubby has a ton of alone time), I come home hoping that he will see the value in it and offer to help, he doesn't (value it OR offer to help), I either don't ask or ask in a muffled way, he doesn't respond, I get angry and now not only am I pissed at him but something that was actually fun and enjoyable (time with my girl) becomes just another tick mark in a ledger.

Oldtimer's questions about no partnership, being the caretaker, and my favorite teen boy are all dead on...even 6 months later.

Goal: act with clarity (ask for what I want) in lieu of reacting in anger

More...sage
Sage,

Maybe it is time for you to take a bit of R&R alone. Find a cheap last-minute trip and take off with a friend. TRUST your H to be ok with DD and all else. Let yourself be a priority.

In the meantime, send him a dirty message on his cell phone and buy some new sex toys. (And make use of them, one way or another.)
Sage, just wanted you to know that I feel a lot of the things you feel and I was hit w/ the D bomb as well (blindsided, just like you) and swore I would NEVER FORGET!! I had it come up on my calendar EVERY DAY just so I would NEVER FORGET, but I've slid right back into the person I was pre-bomb and I hate it, but can't seem to DO anything about it. But, now that I've written that "I can't seem to do anything about it," maybe it's that I don't want to or I don't have the desire to put in the "effort" I learned through this site has to be put into an M for it to continue to work & be good.

I'm rambling, but I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in your feelings.

It wasn't easy "back then" and it isn't going to be easy now, but we have to somehow get to the happy place in our minds that we decide to do the work b/c we know that the results are so sweet.
Sage,

Maybe your anger is there for a reason.

A relationship is a partnership. You can't be the only one willing to do the work, however amazing and strong and dedicated it's obvious that you are.
So is the whole rushing in to solve problems a woman thing? Because I know I used to do it and work on it every day in other places besides my M, and I was just on WCW's thread smiling because she was saying the same thing.

I also have a hard time asking for help, and I'm a big WOA person in terms of my love language. I seem to recall that you are as well? These things are all connected somehow. It sounds like that's where you're focusing your work right now, and I htink that's perfect. I also think that getting away and focusing on yourself in a NONCRITICAL way is a fantastic idea. Celebrate yourself, Sage. Then refocus on the M.

If you want to come out to western WA, let me know!

Be well, friend. Cut yourself some slack for a bit.
Hi all,

Feeling a bit better, a bit more productive. In the past week+ I have tried very hard to work on my attitude. Much of it has been acting "as if" truth be told but some of it has been trying to be grateful, to treat my life with gratitude instead of pessimism. It was working in kind of a miraculous way for a bit, even h seemed more relaxed and open, and then I started compressing again a bit...oh, well, two steps forward, one step back.

Oldtimer, yes, I could certainly use some time ALONE and honestly I have no qualms about leaving dd with h. It took a while but he is truly as comfortable with her as I am and in some ways, more effective with her (and in other ways, less so). The thought of sex toys and actually using them makes me half laugh, half cry. See earlier post on anger ...

RedHeadWife, I have NO IDEA how I got from DB'ing like it was second nature to feeling almost unable to do it, comprehend it, want it, at all. I guess it's kind of like a diet for me...when I'm good and "on" I'm really doing great but when I fall off the wagon, LOOK OUT! I did feel as though I flexed some DB muscles last week and felt REALLY good about it but need to figure out how to do it as a rule.

Whitelight, to be perfectly honest, to pretty much anyone looking INTO my m, they would see my anger as 95% justified...and that was true pre-bomb as well. But, you know what? My anger is getting me NO WHERE and if anything, it's getting me further from my goals. No matter what, my anger isnt serving my purpose...no matter how "right" it may be.

amd, you always make me feel so good and taken care of. Don't tempt me on a road trip! I'll be on your doorstep before you know it! :-)

So, where am I? Still stuck in a couple of key areas. MONEY....household responsibility (not so much caring for dd but just pulling ones weight)...a sense of caring/concern for our future. I'm trying to be better at knowing the difference between letting stuff go (because it needs to be) and speaking up. Not particularly good at either one :-) Looking forward to a long weekend -- hope to get some sleep, relax, get a massage, spend some QT w/h and dd.

Back soon. Sage
"Oldtimer, yes, I could certainly use some time ALONE and honestly I have no qualms about leaving dd with h."

OK, so why hasn't that happened yet?
Hey Sage and OT! Long time no see! I haven't been here in 2 years and for a specific but totally unrelated reason, I thought I would check to see if there were still any old pals here. I read up on your posts and then it just nailed why I was urged to check up.

Whitelight has a point, Sweetie. (OT's observations are a given...) Oddly enough, we're visiting the anger issue in my house and it's brought up a slew of very uncomfortable issues and observations. It's my D15 (who will be 16 a month from tomorrow... yikes!) who is having trouble with this very issue.

Sage, here's what we've discussed. Maybe you'll find something here you can use? Anger is there to tell you that there is a disconnect between what you say and do and how you feel. It is also a call to change to get everything reconnected again.

Are you angry because you're here again? Because it seems like it is almost always YOU who has to clean up messes that aren't always yours? Because you are going through the motions for the betterment of others when it is clearly NOT good for you?

I had to outright call my D15 emotionally dishonest. She won't let on to anyone that she's acting in a fashion that pleases them but she feels isn't the best path for her. So pretty much everyone constantly asks her if she's angry with them. She glosses over, hems and haws and basically spews an untruth so she doesn't hurt feelings. This was a reality check for her and she very much disliked hearing that label of being emotionally dishonest.

Let's talk about the elephant in the living room, shall we? You're basically afraid of what he might say or do if you open up and say what you're feeling... right? What if you stopped taking your story to a conclusion you fear and just tackle the issue of living a disingenuous life by calmly having a discussion with him about the issues? I do not mean the blame game, but one where you just let him know how you're feeling about the items on your gripe list. Hint: start by owning the feeling and just put it out there. Something just tells me that if you are honest with him, just maybe some of this anger will dissipate and you will be a whole lot more open to scheduling in-house dates and having an affair with your H.

One other thing. It is NOT unrealistic for you to have expectations of help in your household. Even if you stay home now, you should not be expected to be the emotional thermostat in your marriage. Having children is no easy task, and that's why God gave kids 2 parents. But you truly need to work on communication with him, or you're not going to get very far except the ability to play the martyr. When you're doing it all to please everyone else (and I will clearly omit Charlotte here because she is a toddler), then it's time to step up to the plate, swing that bat and ask for help.

Look at it this way, if you were divorced, the court would ORDER him to carry his share of the load. Why should you accept less than that when you're not?

Big hugs to you, sweet lady. You deserve happiness, Sage. You owe it to yourself to prioritize YOUR feelings and let him know that all is not well in your world without having to resort to passive-aggressive and non-communicative behaviors that will get you absolutely nowhere.

For the record, my D15 is listening to that audio CD set I recommended some years back (Transcending Your Anger by Fr. Tom Allender). She's feeling overwhelmed with the material presented; my job is to help her as she sorts out all the information so she can turn it into action. It's messy, but she has to do the work. The best thing you can do for Charlotte is to teach her how to do it. Grab that bat and get going!

Take care and hope that spring comes soon for you! Happy new year to all of you--

Betsey
Hi Betsey (and OT, and amd, and whitelight, and redheaded wife!),

I appreciate so much you taking the time to write to me. I was shocked when I logged back in just now and saw that it was nearly 2 months since I had last written. I just spent a 4 day weekend at home...1/2 of it quite nice, some good time with Charlotte, good times with h, too, and the other half not so nice as once again I found myself doing too much, trying hard (really! truly!) to ask for help, but then ending up angry and po'd. Then, the drive to work this AM...back to the thoughts of "not having an affair with h", feeling guilty for letting things get to me, etc. I know, know, know the right steps to take to break this cycle...the combo of DB'ing and Men are from Mars, and "love is letting go of fear", and meditation but I swear, my brain doesn't even seem to be wired in a DB way anymore. Well, that's not actually true. All of the goal setting and tracking and working hard capability is THERE but it feels like I can't stay focused for long enough to see changes.

OT, you asked why no time away for me -- it's primarily $. If nothing else, in a few months I am going away for 5 days for work which both makes me very sad (and worried! I hate flying!) but also does spell at least a few days of catching up on books and sleep and being with my own self. Yes, it will be work, but not that overwhelming in content.

Betsey, as always, I value your input so much! I caught my husband checking my face this AM as I walked into a room -- no doubt to see if I was angry at something (I wasn't) and I was chagrined and sad by that. I honestly feel as though I have tried to talk to him about what is going on, the help I need, etc. and he either isn't getting or says he gets it and will help but doesn't.

Is my anger there for a reason as Whitelight suggested? Well, sure, no doubt some of it is, and some of it isn't. And yes, it does feel like a dramatic disconnect at times...to not be able to ask honestly for what I want..or to choose not to (more honestly) because 50% of the time I don't get it (and get somewhat tweaked by him about it) and then some portion of the time he agrees but doesn't follow through.

but the rest of the truth is that he does help a lot, does do quite a bit at times, and maybe I'm just not paying enough attention to it. Or maybe it's just that I want it MY way. Or, hell, I don't know.

I do know that once again this AM I realized that I need to change things up...need to fix things, at least in myself, or I will lose what I have. And be unhappy in the process.

I'm going to start listening to Keeping Love Alive. I think that will help.

In the meantime....I see h watching me for signs of anger. I am going to use that to get this under control...to ask more directly for what I need instead of stewing...and to shed the things that don't matter.
(((sage)))

Hang in there, sister. Feel free to road trip your way out here!
try email...
Oh, Sage, look who's been absent again and just thought to check back? I'm so glad you finally did check in.

Hopefully, by now you've had a business trip and some time to think and reframe. How's that going for you of late?

I'll keep you in my thoughts. It's so hard to do this and manage yourself and take care of a child, isn't it? Toddlers are wonderful, but require so much bandwidth that it really doesn't surprise me to see multi-tasking parents struggle. I can look back and I honestly am stunned that I didn't fall apart back then too. So give yourself some pats on the back and an "atta girl" for keeping everything together the way you have. It DOES get easier. I think.

So take good care of yourself and hope your self care is a priority these days.

Hugs--Betsey
Check your email, girl. I'm coming your way.
Ellie
I cannot believe it has been 2 years since I have last posted and that long, too, since I checked this thread.

In many ways things have improved dramatically in that time period. I'm past the utter exhaustion of balancing home and a young child. Baby girl is almost 6 now and a true delight. SO much easier now though I still have more desires and wishes and wants than time.

I thought that h and I were doing ok...yah there were some things to fix, don't get me wrong, and I've been trying to work on it here and there...reading the Five Love Languages again, working on some meditation (it just helps me SO MUCH) but then last night he got mad at me for something and he said something so hateful - literally full of hate - that I don't know how to not be done. I'm sure that sounds silly and a little crazy after all this time but there was so much anger and hatred and unfinished business and horribleness to his words. I honestly don't know what to do.

I've been googling therapists (for me, for us) and divorce mediation for the last 16 hours in alternating fashion.

I doubt too many folks who remember me are still here...hi to all.

Sage
Did you and your H ever go to C?
We have been to counseling in the past.

We went for about a year (maybe less time?) well before the bomb dropped. We slogged through a lot of stuff and then it became clear that the time outside the sessions was what was helping us most so we stopped.

At the time the bomb dropped in 2002, I was in counseling alone. He came with me for one session post-bomb and it was clear that it was going to do more harm than good. He went to one counseling session solo (different therapist) and didn't return.

A few years ago (maybe just last year?) he went to another therapy session solo after he had a crazy blow up to something really, really trivial.

He is very anti-therapy. I am not. wink although I do believe that our marriage got back very much on track with just DB'ing.

The problem is now that it seems REALLY clear we have some things we really need to talk about. The communication problems are on both sides...I struggle to tolerate his reactions (lots of anger, lots of lashing back then complete silent treatment for DAYS) so I tend to shy away from bringing up issues. I've just described HIS communication issues in the ( ).
You don't need to tolerate his actions. He needs to get to the root of them. When you ask him why he is reacting that way, what does he say?
Hi Sage,

I could never forget you. Hope you are well, friend.

Hopefully, you have some good news since Valentines Day. How's Charlotte?

smile Betsey
Oh, wow, 4+ years since being on these boards. Just took a quick down memory lane (aka, reading over this thread and checking to see who of the oldtimers is still around) -- hard to believe a) it's been as long as it has been and b) I'm still treading much of the same territory.

I don't miss the situation that originally brought me here lo many years ago but man, I was really focused on improving my marriage, huh?

How are things now? Charlotte is 10 and friends, at least in my case, the years passing from infancy to now have made all the difference in easing many of the issues in my marriage. All? No way. But the acute tiredness and disconnectedness are both alleviated.

So, why am I here tonight? Great question. I've felt the need, of late, to work on my M. Our M feels ok -- really -- but is missing intimacy. We have a lot going for us, there's no question...but I know there could be more closeness.

I chuckle a little at reading over this thread -- I guess it's true what H says that "people don't change" -- I'm back fighting the 10-15 lbs that make me feel crappy and the cluttering habit that annoys us both and the talking too much (and controlling and whatever...). I'm OK with having to work on all of the above because I don't like them in myself much either (well...I think the talking too much is ok but I'm starting to worry it's impacting DD too). (It's not really about talking too much as wanting to control everything..)

Anyway....I'll check out new threads soon...maybe I can be helpful to others. It's been 14 YEARS since Dday (almost to the day) -- how the heck did that happen? but I remember the lost feeling like it was yesterday.

Sage
Sage,

Thank you for the update. I would love some advice on piecing. My H has has been back for 1.5 years and most days things are fine. We went to MC for a year and the drama is subsiding in general. We are compatible in many ways. But I can't help feeling like there should be more, like something is missing. How do you feel close again? And in love, and vulnerable, etc, after someone hurt you and broke your trust? He has been accountable for his mistakes. He is remorseful and transparent. He apologizes and will as much as I need. He has worked on himself and made changes. But I can't help but to miss what we had, and what I felt for him before all this happened. I don't even know how to be open/vulnerable to him, even if I wanted to.

Thank you,
Blu
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