Hey Piecers!
I have a quick question: Have any of you gone through Retrouvaille AND counseling? Was one more beneficial than the other? Should both be done? Should only one be done?
A link to my sitch is at the bottom, briefly, I've been trying for a year to get M back on track after H's affair - which he has recently started and ended, again - and he has agreed to Retrouvaille but not full blown counseling...
thoughts?
Take what you can get.
IF H does not want counceling, Then at least the Retrouvaille should be of some help.
JAK
My experience was that Retrouvaille was effective, counseling was ineffective. In counseling my quiet, reserved husband dominated the conversation and spent the whole time complaining about me. The therapist rarely moved the topic forward. We wasted time rehashing the past. In Retrouvaille the past was forgotten after the first morning. We never dealt with finger-pointing and incriminations. We dealt with feelings. We always had equal time to get our thoughts on paper and equal time to discuss them. There was no third party to take sides. Didn't need one. In Retrouvaille we spent an entire weekend focused on us, not an hour here and there carved out of the workday over a period of months. In Retrouvaille we could see the goal -- to be like the couples who led the sessions, and the loving way they interacted with each other. And Retrouvaille was a bargain; counseling was a financial drain.
Sara,
I would be interested in Retrouvaille but I understand that both parties need to want to save the marriage. Currently, my wife hates me so I do not even know how to approach this. I did contact the leaders of this program this afternoon though and waiting for their reply. Maybe they or you can offer a selling point to see if my wife is interested.
Thank you
CY
CY
That's it. The most difficult part is getting the spouse in the door. PonyGirl went through that, and she did succeed in getting the spouse there. I can tell you that I believe none of the couples sitting there the first night with me had both partners equally interested in saving the marriage. But they all stayed. And by the end, everyone was happier.
Selling point.... it improves your communication. Whether you stay together or not. You understand each other better, and you learn a way to communicate without anger. It's one pleasant weekend away from home, and it can only make things better. It cannot make things worse.
I think I was successful in getting my H there because I suggested it as a last resort when things looked their bleakest. We do this, and if it doesn't work, it's over. He didn't want to be there. And I think he spent most of the first night thinking about the car he had parked right outside. But he stayed. And it worked. And now our lives are fun again.
Sarah,
Thank you. You described our problems perfectly, although I do not allow her or anyone to get me angry any more.
CY
Sara - thanks for posting your experiences with it.
I was wondering, how much religious content is there?
H and I are both pretty much agnostic/non-religious. I'm not bothered much by being around it, but H would be really put off by much religious content.
There's one of these coming up in our area in October... which seems a lifetime away right now with the ups and downs, but I'm trying to get as much info as I can and see where things go and if we might be able to do this.
Hi Sara,
I just found this thread and find a lot of hope in what your wrote about Retrouvaille.
If you get a chance to answer NikkiB's question above, could you also tell me whether there is a component in the weekend about "reigniting the spark of love"?
My wife has expressed to her friends and family that she feels like she does not love me anymore, and in contrast, I believe she is very infatuated with an OM.
I know we would not be ideal candidates for Retrouvaille (because of the OM in the wings), but there is going to be a weekend in the Boston area in six weeks, and this might be my last hope because we just met with a divorce mediator last night.
Thanks for any insights,
LG
Nikki and Lord Grenville,
About the weekend....the religious part. First of all, I am Jewish, so I don't really fit at a Catholic event. It didn't bother me. The way the presentations go, first the husband and wife speak, they take about 3/4 of the presentation time. Then the priest speaks. He doesn't preach or sermonize. He speaks to the topic at hand. So usually the priest spoke about families that he knew, or his family, and how the topic at hand affected him. I think he read some scripture once during the weekend. He made the point that he was there for confession from any of the Catholics who wanted to say confession to him. I thought of him as a resource there for the Catholics. And since they support the group economically, I felt he had a right to be there.
There was a mass on Saturday morning before breakfast, and it was optional. There was a closing mass, and my husband and I whispered goodbye to a few people and sneaked out before it started. We saw a couple of other couples in the parking lot too.
All in all, the religious part is in the background. For some people the idea of a spiritual connection between their marriage and God is important. It was mentionned. For myself and my husband, who is more anti-organized religion than anything else, that was not the valuable part of the weekend. But we got so much out of the weekend that we just let that discussion go by.
As for having an OM. She will be told that she must cease contact with the other man. And if your dialogues go well, she won't want to contact him anymore anyway.
For sparking the relationship...the weekend does it. There was a lot of sex going on during the weekend. We always had a lot of time alone together in the rooms. The retreat we were at had 2 single beds in each room. At breakfast everyone was saying, "Why are there single beds? We pushed ours together." The topics of the dialogues are so carefully chosen. They know how things are developing without having to know what anyone wrote. They move it along with increasingly important questions so that by the end of the weekend you have really opened your heart to your spouse. And they insist that you look into each others' eyes when you dialogue, so you see just what you saw 10 or 20 years ago. The young person who you loved.
The weekend pretty much focuses on learning to dialogue and practicing the technique. In the post sessions there is a section on building intimacy and sex.
I cannot recommend Retrouvaille enough. Now that things are going well for us I keep thinking that it doesn't cost any more to be happy and get along. I wonder why we fought. And yet we did. Retrouvaille should be required of all newlyweds. Any married couple whether happy or unhappy would benefit by attending the weekend.
Sara - thanks so much for the info. Sounds like the religious part is not overwhelming at all.
How sad is it that this part:
"And they insist that you look into each others' eyes when you dialogue, so you see just what you saw 10 or 20 years ago. The young person who you loved."
terrifies me??
We've spent so long NOT talking... this intensity freaks me out.
Not saying AT ALL that I wouldn't want to go, it sounds like a great experience, but that is weird to me that this part sounds so scary.
Hope that we're able (and H is willing) to go in October. It sounds really wonderful.
Nikki,
It's shouldn't be scary. They don't teach dialoguing until the afternoon of Saturday. By that time you have had several conversations and probably are already looking at your spouse. But for those who need reminding, they do teach it. I went several years without looking my husband in the eye. We co-existed in the same house because I never really saw him there. Aren't I terrible? It isn't really a surprise that he had an affair.
Thanks Sara for your encouraging descriptions of the weekend! I still have a hard time believing so much can be healed in a weekend, but I am definitely open to letting the process work its magic if it is meant to be.
I am trying not to get my hopes up because I am not sure my wife will agree to go, but I did pose it to her as a way to improve our communication skills, for us or for future relationships if things do not work out between us.
NikkiB wrote:
"And they insist that you look into each others' eyes when you dialogue, so you see just what you saw 10 or 20 years ago. The young person who you loved."
terrifies me??
We've spent so long NOT talking... this intensity freaks me out.
I can appreciate what you are saying, but since the eyes are the windows to the soul, think of connecting eye to eye as a way to penetrate the intensity of the exterior, to get to the peace you each hold within.
3 days ago, I get a letter from a high school friend I have not seen in 19 1/2 years. (He does not know about the separation and difficulties between my wife and I) He had mailed 3 photographs he took of my wife and I as newlyweds while we stopped to visit him on our move to Boston. We looked so carefree and happy and these are the two people I hope we can see when we look into each other's eyes. But how is that for timing? He had the photos in a drawer for 19 years, and for some reason he decides to mail them this week.
LG
Lord G,
That is so touching. I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes.
At the end of the weekend they asked what we found to be the most signicant thing for us over the weekend. (This was the first time they asked us to share in the group at all, except for introductions.) I said that I didn't remember when my husband and I had changed from the happy newlyweds we once were, but I came to the weekend and I met the man I married. People all over the room were agreeing. So it was not an uncommon experience.
The weekend is the turning point when you stop the old habits and learn to communicate. But there is homework that you do each night for the first week, practicing the dialoguing. And then you start the post sessions. The 6 post sessions are on the next 6 Sundays (or they were for us.)Here they talk more about theory. How to rebuild your marriage. Love is a decision. Forgiveness is a decision, etc. The method is still the same, but it's assumed you know how to dialogue and now can work on issues. It's not until about the 4th post session when they get to how to have a structured disagreement. And you practice doing an easy one at the session. You know, we haven't had a disagreement since. I think neither of us wants to go thru a structure to argue, so we just avoid arguing. It takes away all the fun of poking jabs at each other, and trying to outsmart each other. You have to consider the other person's feelings and make accomodations. Where's the fun in that?
After the weekend we came home happy but walking on eggshells. Could we maintain the closeness while living in the real world? We looked forward to those post sessions every week. But slowly we got stronger. And now it's second nature.
Remember, don't try to fix your marriage first. Just get her to walk in the door.
Hi edie,
Here is what I know.
I know that they won't accept any couple unless both parties agree to it in writing. I believe after the initial weekends you are commiting to 6-8 follow-up weekends. They keep you with the same group of couples that you started out with, giving you the chance to make some good and long lasting relationships. The success rates is amazing, somewhere in the high 80's. It is non-denominational, although is it a Catholic run program. If you can't afford the price of the hotel they will gladly pay for it. So really it's all good!
When I originally looked into it I contacted a leader in St Louis. She told me that in her case she was the one who wanted the divorce and pretty much went to say she tried. It so transformed her marriage that she is a true believer and has run a group with her husband for the last 12 years.
I agree with Sara. No middle man means that you and your husband are doing all of the repair work.
Good luck..........
Bethie
Hi Everyone!
Thanks so much for you feedback! This has been great to learn all this stuff...
EM
Hi Sarah,
I received a call back this evening from I guess the person who runs this. Right now, my wife and her family hate me. Wife will not forgive although I have forgiven her. She has a lot of anger issues stemming from childhood. Their family dynamics are full of pride. When my wife was 6 yrs old, her grandfather, (who made himself very wealthy) was teaching her the piano. My wife kept making a mistake and he got so frustrated, he put her over his knee while her mother (mom's dad) did nothing.
To this day, they expect perfection. Were married 20 yrs as this past May but love hasn't existed for a long, long time. I would be willing to do this, but I know my wife will not. We tried marriage counsing 3 separate times but my wife would only go once. She is not willing to hear constructive criticism. I've made mistakes and I asked the Lord to help me change myself. I work very hard and now I do not let people get me angry because the only one who can get me angry is me.
My wife is always angry. For years, we wouldn't talk. She yelled and cursed at me, a few times she hit me in front of our 2 children and has to be in control of me. She has treated me like an idiot and I have resented that, held it in, then exploded. Her family always interferes. For over 17 yrs, I told my wife to speak to her Dad because he would get angry at me if I didn't agree that Jesus, His Passion and the Gospel is full of SHI@. My wife refused to do nothing.
The women on the phone from Retrouvaille is mailing me a flyer and told me there is one session a year, the next one in September here in New Jersey. When this flyer comes in, how do I sell this to my wife? The woman I spoke to said the session challanges you to make changes and only by a miracle from God will that happen.
Any suggestions would be helpful.
CY
Hey CY -
One thing you could do (and I don't remember where I read this) is that you can suggest to your spouse that going to this would help you. Say something along the lines of "i'm having trouble communicating and I think this would help me communicate better. Would you be willing to help me do so?" That way this is about you learning something new and she assisting you in doing so.
I believe I may have gotten that suggestion from the Retrovaille website, but can't be sure.
EM
Whew! That is a hard one.
First off, it is not like counseling. No one but the two of you discusses your marriage. Everything is private. Just the two of you alone together with your notebooks. And even you can't criticize her because it's against the rules to talk about the other person. You only talk about yourself. There will be no criticism, constructive or otherwise. She will write about her feelings and read about yours. If there are changes that she thinks she should make, so be it. No one will tell her she needs to change.
I can see where she would be sensitive to criticism with a background like that.
It is only one weekend. One weekend that could make the next 30 years of both your lives more enjoyable. Where is it held in NJ? Is it at a monastery or a hotel? Here in Tampa it was at a monastery, so it was a very peaceful, relaxing environment. You do not have to commit to the post sessions before you go. So you could just sell her on the weekend, and when that is over, you could see if she's willing to do the post.
Perhaps it would be more appealing to offer to do it in a different location. There's a group in Orlando. You could combine it with a trip to Disneyworld. I know some people have gone to San Diego to do it. You could do the weekend anywhere and then get permission from your NJ group to do the post sessions with them.
Those are all the ideas I have now. Perhaps something will come to me. Of course, there's the idea of doing it for the children. So they will live in a happier household.
And, what about....it will help you to understand her. If you understood her better, then you could change in ways to make the family happier. (Don't mention that you would prefer that this be reciprocal, that's understood.)
Good luck, LG. (I don't know about needing to sign something about wanting to go. We didn't have to do that here in Tampa, but I think that individual groups do differ.)
Thanks for the well-wishes Sara.
Wow - I just received another sign from above, possibly?
A short time ago, I received a phone call from Father A.C. who is a Franciscan priest, and a cousin of my wife. He just flew back to the states from Rome where he was leading a pilgrimmage.
Over the years, my wife and I have collaborated on illustrations and graphic design for books that he has written. We only hear from him a few times per year, but he called me tonight to see how I was doing. He was not familiar with Retrouvaille when I mentioned it to him, but he said he thinks it is good to leave no stone unturned at this point. He quoted Romans 8:28 to me and lifeted my spirits with this paragraph: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose."
It feels like there are unseen helpers beginning to come together behind the scenes for the purpose of saving our marriage. I will keep my faith no matter what happens.
LG
It feels like there are unseen helpers beginning to come together behind the scenes for the purpose of saving our marriage. I will keep my faith no matter what happens.
LG
Amen!! 
Dear Sara,
Its held in a hotel in New Jersey for the weekend and follow up sessions are in the basement of the church.
Thank you for your reply. Those are good suggestions about this helping me to communicate better. She only communicates to me through anger and when she does that, I normally shut down and give no response. Our marriage is like an open book with wife's family. There are many, many more things that I have had to put up with from her family. They do not respect me and treat me as they would like to be treated.
She is very sensitive to self-criticism and has an answer for everything. It really ticks her off when I do not obey her commands and do as she says. Sunday night she got mad at me because my parents do not want to move to an assisted living faciltiy and stay in their home. Then she tells me that her father is mad at my dad because my dad, who has only been getting an army pension (WWII) since 1998, is getting more from the army then her dad (also was in WWII). And her dad has been receiving this for years. I wish my dad to relay that message to my wife. My family is poor, we grew up on welfare. Her family, her grandfather made himself into a millionare so they do not have any financial problems. They take fine vacations, Europe, Cruises, etc. My family goes no where for vacation.
My family has not done anything to my wife as bad as I have been getting it from her family. To understand this, it would be like my family making cruel comments about my wife's weight over and over and I did nothing to stop it.
CY
We have only been married for three years, but we have spent three times the amount of time together of a normal couple because we work together... If I had known what me working with my wife was going to do to us, I would have left after a week and gotten my own career started, whether I was working for minimum wage at McDonald's or making $50,000 a year in the IT field... It wouldn't matter which one I picked because my wife would have missed me when I got home rather than becoming sick of seeing me every day for 16 hours a day.
We went to Marriage Encounter a couple weekends ago, which was a huge mistake for a marriage that hasn't just lost the intimacy, but has truly lost the love. My wife hates me, likely as much as your wife hates you CY, and she has been having an emotional relationship with an OM... She has specifically said she doesn't love me anymore, never really loved me, and has no desire to work on our marriage anymore.
My Dad had cancer surgery yesterday, and I asked her to be there for me and him for support. She agreed, and at some point in the day, we stole off to a private room so I could read her a letter I had written to her about how I am changing my life for me, working for me, and taking control of my life. We held hands throughout the day, she held me as a friend, and at the end of the day when she was going back home, I kissed her without any meaning of intimacy... it was a "thank you for being here for me" kiss. When I got home, she turned it all around on me, saying I was being manipulative, using my dad to get closer to her and get her to come back to our marriage, which was the furthest thing from the truth, but she has now resorted to blaming me for everything bad in her life.
Last night, we called the Retrouvaille leader, and somehow she convinced my wife to go with me even though my wife has completely lost any hope for us. I have not given up, and I will not give up, because I know she has become disillusioned and confused by the OM and my own actions. I know that my actions are habits, and not personality traits, and she is in denial because of the excitement and ease of communication with the OM... I have hope that Retrouvaille will help us, if not bring us back together in our marriage, allow us to not argue about everything and live in peace with each other.
I am very much afraid of going there with her though, as Marriage Encounter just caused her pain. We haven't had sex in over a month, she is disgusted by me, doesn't want to see me or talk to me, and has no belief that I can change my behaviors. I love her with all my heart, and I feel that we are meant for each other, and I will not give up... I hope someone can convince me that even if we don't remain married, everything will be okay...
Adam,
We were married 20 yrs this past May but for at least 10 of those years, we are not happy. We have two children, ages 10 (daughter) and 12 (son who has ADHD). Daughter has ADHD too but not as severe.
I still live at home sleeping in the office which has a single bed in it now since June, 2006. So my wife and I haven't been intimate for going on 15 months now. My wife does not talk to me, only yells and swears at me for most of our marriage. I guess I enabled that because I said nothing until I exploded after months of hanging on to that resentment and anger. I learned that to hang on to stuff like that is too heavy to begin with, only makes you sick and is futile to your mental well being.
My wife holds me responsible for the way our marriage is, yet does not hold herself accountable. As for myself, I have changed myself since January because I prayed and asked the Lord to let me see myself as He sees me and in humility, I asked Him to change me because human beings cannot change themselves. That is the only person you can change, is yourself.
My wife is too proud to admit her faults and also is unwilling to change her behavior, even for the sake of our 2 children. She keeps score on things I do and in all honesty, she never grew up. She risked the peace within our own home rather then have a 2 minute conversation with certain members of her family who enjoyed persecuting me. I finally stood up to that and wife and family expect me to say I'm sorry. I have never gotten due respect from wife and family and they never treated me as they would want to be treated.
So now they all hate me. At least, now I do not have to hear about how much Jesus, the Passion and the Gospel is full of Shi@ and their other bigot attitudes towards my faith. I have learned though they these people will not get me angry anymore because they no longer have power over me. I know Jesus loves me and I want to do His Will.
I am hoping my wife is agreable to Retrouvaille too because the sucess rate is over 80%. It will challange you and from what I read, it is the last technique. I did DB for months and saw no results. I pull my weight more around the house, am kind and considerate but my wife has her problems. When she was going to summer school, she would call me on the way, because my kids would be alone for about 1/2 hour and just shared her day. No matter how good or bad a day I had, I always answered the phone like, Hey, how's it going? or Hello how are you? and my tone was always cheerful.
My wife expects perfection and was raised that way so her family is messed up in the head too.
If I call her, she answers "WHAT, OR YEAH ROCK or something like that but in a nasty tone. I ignore it as best I can.
CY
Adam,
I have never been to Marriage Encounter. I overheard some people at the Retrouvaille weekend talking about the difference between Marriage Encounter and Retrouvaille. They said that Marriage Encounter is not for troubled marriages. That is doesn't deal with the problems of troubled marriages. Retrouvaille, on the other hand, is specifically geared to troubled marriages. It is often attended by people on the brink of divorce or separated. It is recommended by divorce mediators and some judges, before divorce.
I think you and your wife will benefit greatly from Retrouvaille because it specifically deals with how to communicate without going round and round. I mentionned to my husband last night that we haven't had an argument in the 6 months since we completed the Retrouvaille training. He smiled and agreed. That is unbelievable. We used to argue constantly -- if I said it was a nice day, he said it was awful...and vice versa. We just disagreed about everything. Now we get along. Amazing.
Sara,
During private sessions, are any of the past incedents and things that upset you written down and given to your spouse to read? I mean, how do you move forward, without that? I know I don't understand all this. For example, when my wife talks to me, she is aggressive and her tone is raiesed and talks in anger. I don't like that and I am unresponsive to it anyway.
Another example; my wife would always critize everything I did, and I mean everything (i.e. it takes me too long to cut the grass, you fold the laundry and make too many piles, you need to measure exactly how much flour and sugar when you make cookies, etc. (stupid stuff I know)).
Her complaint is I don't appreciate everything she does, most things a woman would complain about. Me, I don't get respect from her and her family.
Thank you
CY
Rocco
CY,
At Retrouvaille you talk about yourself only. You cannot say "You criticize me unmercifully, and it hurts me." But you can say, " I feel like a child who is chastised by the teacher in front of all the other children. I feel humiliated when I make an effort to help with chores around the house." Do you see the difference? You have not said anything about her. But she knows why you feel this way. You just don't say it. And when you take that backdoor approach she can accept it better. She can think, "oh, I don't want him to feel bad when he helps. Maybe I could say thank you sometimes." And if she has that thought on her own, then your marriage will be improved. You speak as imagistically as you can to get the point across about how you feel in the marriage.
They will give you pointed questions to elicit these conversations. Then you both have a set period of time to write your feelings in your notebook. Next your go to the privacy of the room to exchange the notebooks. You read the letters twice, once with your head and once with your heart. And then you discuss them in the way that you are taught. You deal with the past first, thinking about what you might have done wrong yourself, and apologizing. After that, the past is taboo. You don't bring up the past. So when you have arguments in the future and one person goes back 15 years to something, you say, "you can't bring up the past." And that source of the circular argument is done with. If you really follow the rules of Retrouvaille, arguments become shorter and less frequent.
In the Post sessions there is an entire session on being critical. In that lesson not criticizing is pointedly discussed. But the weekend focuses only on learning the dialogue technique and doing the questions. So both the weekend and all the post sessions are equally important.
Sara,
Thank you so much for the direct approach. When you put these things down, and I hope, my wife knows why I feel that way, what if she asks me, why do I feel that way, give me some examples?
I have to be careful because she has an answer for everything and puts it back on me. For example, she has told me that she hit me (although not in 5 years when I told her to stop doing that) because I make her mad. I don't make her do anything.
She did tell me that when my children hit one another, she said to me that she told the children that we don't hit in this house. My kids responded, you hit daddy. So she told them that wasn't right. This conversation took place this past January. I told her I appreciated that she did tell the children that, but help me understand why you never apologized to me for that. Then she apologizd and I thanked her for that. That is the 1st time in 20 years we are married that she apologized for her behavior.
Normally, in the past when she lost control of her temper, she would make me a special meal, do me a favor of buy me something without mentioning why she was doing that. I knew why, but I would rather have her not do that, but instead say she is sorry to me.
That was my wife's way of making up to me. But I would rather have words of affirmation then gifts like that. I've said I am sorry many times for my poor behavior and actions.
Thanks again and I expect I should get the flyer from Retrouvaille in tonight's mail. God Bless you for that.
Rocco
CY,
During the dialogue there is a specific way that you are trained to ask questions. You will both have to do 10 minutes of the structured questions on the writing before the dialogue is over. When it is over, you are then free to have a conversation. She probably will have had the wind taken out of her sails by the dialogue part, but if she is still up for the attack, she can do it. And you can respond as you see fit. However, the point is clearly made -- your feelings are your feelings. They are neither right or wrong, they are your feelings. If there is a problem such as she thinks you are wrong to have the feelings you have, then bring that up in the next meeting session. They will tell everyone that we all have a right to our own feelings, and our feelings are not wrong. There are always a few people who want to tell the spouse how they should be feeling. That doesn't fly in this group.
Sara,
Thank you. That makes me feel better, especially your comment, "There are always a few people who want to tell the spouse how they should be feeling. That doesn't fly in this group."
I am not sure this will work for her. I know one thing, unless she has a change of heart, she will not like this at all. Many times she has said in the past that "If you want to make this marriage work, you need to do this, that and the other." I kept quiet thinking to myself, "Gee, what is she going to do to make this marriage work? Why am I the only one that has to make changes?"
God Bless you
CY
Sara,
I just received the brochure on Retrovaille this evening and it sounds great. I haven't approached my wife on this yet but hope to do so this weekend, especially since the next session is in Sept.
I pray and please pray that my wife is open to this and we both learn how to get along with another and that love will return to both of us more strong.
CY
Hi CY,
I pray together with you tonight,
that your wife will attend your
September Retrouvaille session with you,
and that my wife will attend the Boston
September Retrouvaille with me,
and that God will provide healing light to shine
through the keyholes of locked hearts
to allow the doors of communication to be opened.
LG
Lord Grenville,
Thank you so much for your prayers. I will do the same for you. Haven't approached my wife yet on this, have you? Sara gave me some good suggestions though on this.
Its late and I off to bed. Have a good night.
CY
Hi CY,
Thank you for your prayers too.
Last Monday night, I attened our first divorce mediation meeting, that my wife had requested we attend. I stated that I do not want a divorce.
I expressed a need to understand better why my wife chose to end our marriage (without ever expressing any unhappiness with our relationship), and I said I hoped she could openly share with me what her unhappiness in the marriage stemmed from. These are things that she had not found a way to share with me after 6 months of MC. I still did not get clarity on this.
When my wife tried to say that she wanted a divorce, she physically could not say the word. She actually got stuck on the the first syllable twice, and finally whispered through tears the almost inaudible "D" word. I stated that I while I acknowledge that she feels that way, I would like her to consider attending the September Retrouvaille weekend, so that we could both improve our communication skills, and that even if we do not reconcile, we will be able to enter into future relationships with better abilities in connecting with future partners.
I asked her to think about attending - that she didn't have to decided right then. She is now visiting her parents and other relatives in Florida for a few days.
I am still debating whether I should give her a few more reasons to go to Retrouvaille. For example, I might say that if we spent the same number of hours that we would have at Retrouvaille, talking through the unrevealed/unresolved issues with our mediator/counselor instead, we might end up spending over $3000 with the mediator, as opposed to the Retrouvaille weekend which would be $550 for the entire weekend, including food and lodging for both of us.
I don't want to appear pressuring, desperate, or to be trying too hard to make her attend, so it is a fine balance.
I had asked her to attend the previous Boston-area Retrouvaille in March, which was the week before we separated, and I was careful to not pressure her at all, but she chose to not attend because she was feeling "overwhelmed emotionally". I said then that that was o.k., but hoped that she might consider attending the next session, which is this one in September.
Unfortunately, she is more "emotionally overwhelmed" now than she was in March, because she is facing a necessary surgery in few months, and she is dealing also with the illnesses of her mother, father, and uncle on top of our situation. That's why it may take the extra guidance from above to help her to choose to attend Retrouvaille with me.
Sara,
I have another question on this thread's theme of Retrouvaille vs/ counseling vs/ Divorce busting.
Over the past 7 months, my wife systematically shut down our marriage step-by-step, ending intimacy, then sleeping on the sofa, then separating, and now almost no physical touches of affection when we see each other except for the occasional brief "half-hug".
In following Divorce busting principles, I have not been saying "I love you" for many months, and I have also not been communicating affection physically or in other verbal ways.
So I am really having a hard time visualizing how in a Retrouvaille weekend, the emotional distance is bridged?
I guess I would have to say that the Divorce Busting strategies, like the Last Resort Technique that I have been following for a couple of months do not seem to be working, so I am ready to try another approach, but I am a little afraid that maybe turning on the "I Love You's" and clear affection suddenly at the weekend would sabotage the potential results of DB techniques that may need more time to have a cumulative effect?
Can you tell I am still second-guessing myself all the time?
LG
Lord G,
That is a good question. I don't know how to answer it. Somehow it is the aura of the entire event. The obvious truthfulness of the presenting couples who reveal their pain to you, the use of notebooks instead of speaking to express yourself, the time alone to clarify what you are feeling, the focus on feelings not thoughts. All of that comes together to bring out a deeper truth than you are used to dealing with. There are plenty of tears at Retrouvaille. There are tissue boxes everywhere. I guess I would have to say that the truth, and knowing that you are dealing with the truth, brings you closer together.
That being said, it is also possible to understand the truth about your relationship, and realize that the marriage is not what you want for the rest of your life. That was the experience that PonyGirl had. But it saved her years of fighting for something that may have existed only in her mind. I don't want to put words in her mouth. You can find her threads by searching under her name.
Good luck. I hope you get her there. Just the fact that she didn't agree to go six months ago, and the sitch is no better now, is a good reason to give this a try.
And I agree whole-heartedly, Retrouvaille is a bargain. They can do it because they have the support of the Catholic Church, and all the presenters are volunteers. People who have been through Retrouvaille are so thankful for the experience that they give very generously of their time to help others.
Hi Sara,
Thanks for providing more insight into the process at a Retrouvaille weekend. Your thoughtful answers in this thread (and other ones too) have been really helpful.
Connecting on a level of truth and honesty is really what I desire with my wife, and it sounds like Retrouvaille would be the most likely way we might achieve that.
I did find PonyGirl's stories helpful too. They gave me a glimpse of a scenario which I might be experiencing. Time will tell.
LG
LG,
Thanks for the kind words. I was out of town yesterday, meeting some of my friends from the DB board. It was wonderful to meet such insightful people and be able to spend some time with them.
I hope that you can convince your wife to give Retrouvaille a try. It can only improve your lives; I cannot see how it could make things worse.
Sara,
I did bring the topic of Retrouvaille up yesterday with my wife but she is not interested. She thought it was therepy and I told her it was not. I said its presented by couples who wanted out so they have been there and it was 80% sucess rate. Then couples share with just each other privately. There is no group discussion. Sadly, that is not the direction she plans to take. She is waiting to get a full time position before she files so that is why we live in the same house. She does not love me anymore which I already knew.
She did admit she is a control freak and said she does not know who she is anymore, and is waiting for her oldself to come back. I don't trust you, etc. I have been hurt too many times, this is the 4th time. My family has been put through this too.
I said to her that I have been hurt too, but I have forgiven everyone (none will apologize because they do not see themselves as doing anything wrong). I asked why would you not speak to your dad sister or brother-in-law that after 17 years, I was exhausted of their remarks about my catholic faith. It was pure bigotry. I would never even consider talking against a Jewish person's faith, protestant, Muslim what ever.
Sara, just so you know, members of her family have told me off, put me in my place, corrected my grammar, cured at me, told me I do not discipline my children correctly, told me I should have a cat in my house (which we do), the list goes on and on. I have had to keep silent.
I told my wife that can you please speak to them and she just wouldn't do it.
I am prayaing for a miracle and hope God will answer my prayers that my wife will be converted. Being converted to God has to be God's will so I pray for that.
Thanks for your help but until my wife gets that chip off of her shoulders and not be so proud, the graces God is sending to her is bounding off like tennis balls.
CY
CY,
I'm sorry she doesn't see the light. I know that you would very much enjoy the Retrouvaille experience because of your Catholic background. Just put it on a back burner for now. Perhaps someday she will see that spending 2 days working on her relationship with you is an investment in improving the entire remainder of her life.
Thank you Sara,
Its in God's hands now so I have to put my Faith and Trust in him. In the past, we did try marriage counseling on 3 separate occassion but she would only go once, that't it, and I had to continue. She admitted in the past that she does not like to hear constructive criticism.
Even in the Bible, the Old Testament, I think in the book of Psalms or Wisdom, it says that a wise person can accept the truth and learn from it if they are being corrected. Only a fool and a proud person will not accept this. It doesn't say this exactly, I can't remember which verse, but it does say something like that along these lines.
So I continue to pray for my wife and her family who hate me. I will not loose my soul for them by hating them too. Besides, hate and staying angry like they are takes up too much energy and proves futile.
CY
I did bring the topic of Retrouvaille up yesterday with my wife but she is not interested...Sadly, that is not the direction she plans to take.
Hi CY,
I am sorry to hear that your wife is not interested in attending Retrouvaille. Do you think she might be willing to speak on the phone with one of the facilitators? I have read a couple of persons on this DB forum say that their spouse agreed to go after he/she got a better idea of what the weekend was all about.
I am trying to decide how much longer to wait before I talk to my wife about Retrouvaille again. The Boston area weekend is still 5 weeks away and I don't want to pressure her into a decision too soon, but I also want to reserve a space for us if there is a chance.
I will keep you and your wife in my prayers.
LG
Lord Grenville,
Its probably too early to tell her that. I did receive a brochure in the mail and I still have it but she is not interested in saving this marriage. She is waiting for a full time position before she files.
I could ask her if she wanted to speak to someone or look at the brochure but she will say no. I suppose I could leave it out for her but she will not read it. I pray for a miracle that God will convert her. If she saw herself as God sees her, then she will recognize herself. But she is not willing to attend a weekend to save a marriage. how sad!
Rocco
...I could ask her if she wanted to speak to someone or look at the brochure but she will say no. I suppose I could leave it out for her but she will not read it. I pray for a miracle that God will convert her. If she saw herself as God sees her, then she will recognize herself. But she is not willing to attend a weekend to save a marriage. how sad!
Rocco
Is is sad.
Maybe leaving the brochure out where she might choose to look at it on her own initiative, is a possibility. It might be the mustard seed which takes root, if that is God's will in your wife's life.
My 2 1/2 year old nephew is named Rocco, but I have not been able to see him in about 6 months because my BIL/SIL have not invited me over to their home since my wife separated from me. It's like the 20 years I've been a friendly and respectful brother-in-law to them doesn't matter anymore. I am suddenly cut off from their lives.
There are so many facets to separation and divorce which are so very sad.
LG
Lord Grenville,
It wouldn't do any good to leave the brouchure or phone number out. My wife has never taking my advice on anything. I've had to take hers more then I care to.
The only one who probably could convince her is her mom which is unlikely because they are wary of me too. At my kids birthday party this past May, my mom her my mother-in-law tell my wife "Why don't you just leave him?"
Obviously, she didn't know my mom was in the kitchen at the time she said it.
Whoops, I gave my real name.
CY
Sara,
Thank you so much for all the info on the Retrouville weekend, my h and I are going in Septemember, and I am so hopeful this will be the step in the right direction we will need.
I so hope that we can attain the level of honesty that you speak of, there have been so many lies and half truths that I so hope that we really take to this and build a true and good marriage.
Thanks again for the info
Limbo,
I am so happy to hear that you are going. Please let us know how things go for you there. My experience was really wonderful. It would be nice to get a few different people telling their experiences, even if some are not wonderful.
I hope you can get past the lies. Everything you talk about will be your feelings. Feelings should not be lies, but I know every experience is different. I cannot predict.
You are taking action. No matter what this will help. It cannot hurt the relationship. You have built a life for 17 years. Certainly it is worth a weekend of focused work to avoid throwing it all away!
Good luck. Keep the boat steady till you get there. The other spouse often gets cold feet beforehand. The hardest part is walking in the door. After that it's really both easy and enjoyable.
Feel free to write with questions if you have any. I'm happy to answer.
W is proceeding with D. She is very sure and I could tell that this has become something that she's somewhat okay with. She really believes it is the answer. She is not bluffing and she is not acting in anger. She has told me that she will always love me, but she simply cannot move past the hurt.
Because of her calm, caring tone, I thought I might as well throw out the Retrouvaille idea. She said that she would consider it...Seriously consider it. But she said she doesn't want me to pay that kind of money if she's going to just be pissed to be there all weekend. I asked her to just think of it as one last resort. If she really loved me and really wished that we weren't in this sitch, then 3 days seems a small price to pay. I told her that I would want her to open up to the ideas and really participate and have an open mind about what could happen. I also told her that if she didn't get anything from the weekend, I wouldn't push for the follow-up sessions.
She is 100% convinced that she can't get over the hurt that I've caused her. IMO, the hurt that I've caused is fairly small and can easily be overcome with a little help. I understand that it's very deep, and it comes down to her having the feeling that I stopped loving her and that she wasn't good enough for me. While I know that's serious, I believe that it can be overcome. I don't see that as a M killer. She needs some help to let go of the past and forgive.
First question: How do they help a spouse like my W to get past the hurt? There's still a lot of love there, but she is hurt and angry.
Second question: Any idea of how to gently "push" her? I don't want to guilt her into it and I don't want her to feel pushed. I just need her to feel like it isn't a waste of time. It seems like she's almost on-board.
It's my understanding that both partners have to have some desire to fix their M. I know that, on some deep level, she does. But she feels like it is impossible.
Third question: If she is feeling pretty defensive and is not entirely willing to work, will Retrouvaille still help? If she has the attitude that it cannot help, can it?
EAA
EAA,
Sounds like I running step in step with you. After our converstation last night, it sounds like my W is committed to proceeding with D or mediation. I need to follow up on your thread, so I'm not sure what the hurt is she feels you caused, but in my case, she says she has just fallen out of love and has been that way for a long time. She also has no desire to try to fix it or work on things. I've thought about Retrouvaille also, but I doubt that I could get her there at this point.
EAA,
I'm sorry you are at the point you are at. I know how depressing it is. But you have offered a very good solution. I hope that your wife will agree to give Retrouvaille a chance. All they ask is that you go "with an open mind and a willing heart". And I know from experience, 1/2 the hearts in that room on Friday night were not very willing at all, but they were there. It is not 3 days though, it is less than 48 hours, from 7 on Friday night til 5 on Sunday afternoon.
If you call the number of your local Retrouvaille group listed on the website,
http://www.retrouvaille.org, they will send you some information which you can show your wife. Retrouvaille is for troubled marriages or divorced couples considering reconciliation.
I think you are right, within the context of Retrouvaille, your wife could move beyond the hurt she has experienced. It is amazing what people can overcome! I consider it akin to the body healing after a serious injury -- most times all that remains is a faint scar; when broken bones heal there is nothing visible at all. We need to let our emotions heal just as well. So many times we hold onto the hurt for so long, and don't allow healing. These accumulated hurts destroy the marriage. Retrouvaille is a place for emotional healing.
The exact way that the healing takes place is still a mystery to me though. Part of it is by example. When you listen to the presenting couples tell their stories, and you see the pain in their faces when they describe the hell that their marriages had become, you know exactly what they felt. And when they talk about what they did to heal the pain, and you see the love they have for each other in their eyes, then you know that it is more than possible. It is right there in front of you. For me, I just had a thought, why can't we be like that? I want to be like them! And I guess my husband had the same thought. If you follow along in their footsteps, and do what they tell you to do, it works.
When we arrived Friday night, everyone looked tense and frightened. By dinner on Saturday, couples were strolling around with arms around each other, smiling and laughing. What a difference!
I hope your wife will take the chance and do the weekend. It can only help you; it cannot hurt, no matter what you choose to do after that.
Good luck. I will be praying for you.
Dis,
Don't give up hope. You have 2 young children who deserve parents willing to try to give them an intact family. Even if your wife won't do it for you, or herself, ask her to do it for them. It is only 1 weekend, and a pleasant one at that. Have you suggested it yet?
I will be praying for you too.
Gosh it sounds just like my sitch too. I sure hope that if my wife isn't able to move past the hurt that she would really consider doing that....
Anyone know how effective Retrouville is for Ws with lots of resentment/hurt getting over that?
It's very good for it. It worked for me. I couldn't even remember all the stuff I'd been angry about (we've been married 1/2 my life), but I carried the anger everywhere with me. At Retrouvaille they asked me to write about what I was angry about, and I did, and he started to make an effort to not make me so angry, and it all just went away. Your love doesn't die, it just gets so buried under all the anger. When you clear away the anger, you find it again.
Dis,
Don't give up hope. You have 2 young children who deserve parents willing to try to give them an intact family. Even if your wife won't do it for you, or herself, ask her to do it for them. It is only 1 weekend, and a pleasant one at that. Have you suggested it yet?
I will be praying for you too.
Thank you Sara for your thoughts. You have definitely been an inspiration for me on these boards. I haven't suggested it to my W yet. She told me last night that she would start working on the process of filing for D. I went myself to go a lawyer today, just so that I'm prepared and know my rights. I'll have a look at their site and see what is local in the coming weeks. Like you said before, it can't hurt at this point.
Sara,
I pray and hope my wife will want to do Retrovaille but she told me she is not willing to fix the marriage, even when I told her that putting the kids through this will be hard, especially since they both have ADHD.
I'm not sure this is right, but I took my wedding ring off too as of this past Sunday. She hasn't worn hers since June, 2006.
The worst part is her family backs her decision and they are the only ones who hate me. During our talk about this a few weeks ago, I told her that for years, I felt like an Idiot because you would constantly critize everything I did. Of course she has an answer to everything and said "No I didn't." I have validated her comments to me, she will not do the same. According to her and her family, I am at least 90% at fault, maybe more.
All I can do is pray and I handed this problem over to God to do as He Wills. Reading all these posts it sounds so positive but she is too hurt. She is allowed to be hurt by the past, I'm not.
I would be willing to do Retrovaille as a last resort. Divorce Busting didn't work. Mort Fertel has e-mailed me to try the Lone Ranger trak but I have my doubts that will help.
Please pray for me and my wife so she will begin to see things.
CY
Sara,
I pray and hope my wife will want to do Retrovaille but she told me she is not willing to fix the marriage, even when I told her that putting the kids through this will be hard, especially since they both have ADHD.
I'm not sure this is right, but I took my wedding ring off too as of this past Sunday. 
Confident_Me,
In your reply, you didn't actually reply other then repeat a quote I said. What were you going to say?
CY
CY,
I'm sorry that your wife is being so difficult. I cannot understand why some people plant their feet in concrete and refuse to budge. You sure can't dance like that. I've learned to be as light on my feet as possible and adapt to change, but then I trained as dancer. I think it was good training for life too.
I will pray for you. Her family is not helping her by destroying her marriage. If she moves on and marries again, the same set of circumstances will happen again. Life is a matter of survival of the fittest, those who don't adapt, don't survive.
Thank You Sara and God Bless you. Praying is what gets me through each and every day.
CY
Sara,
I hope you can help answer these questions. One minute my W and are not divorcing the next she is marching to the attorney. So I don't know if I can get her to go, I have asked in the past and meet with no, but I think things have changed enough for her position to change. However, if she does file, would it be unwise to tell her I will uncontest the D and give her all she wants (we have already worked out terms, so I know what I would be agreeing to) if she will do this one weekend with me?
Second, I live in a state that the program in not available. We will have to fly or drive at least 7 hours one-way to attend. Which really kills the possibility of returning for the other weekends, unless we pick maybe one or two and do them. Would it be worth it if we can't do the follow-up weekends?
Thanks in advance I really appreciate the input. FYI I was being sarcastic on GD's thread. Not sure if anyone realized that. hehe!
Atlas,
I was being a bit facetious myself. I got your drift. I am afraid I'm becoming a bit cyncial reading all these sad stories. Especially when my husband and I did Retrouvaille, and we saw how little one really needs to change to bring a marriage from negative to positive. I cannot understand why people will go through their lives miserable, when 2 days of working together can make it much better.
So I suppose you can guess what my answer to your question is. Yes, I think the weekend, by itself is worth the effort. The post sessions reinforce the change and give you more structured practice. But for a long time Retrouvaille was just the weekend, and people were on their own after that. I think the success rate improved when they added the Post sessions.
There is a workbook that you get at the first Post session. So if you could get them to mail you 2 workbooks after you finish the weekend, you could do the post session lessons at home. I'm not saying it would be as good as attending. But it would be better than not working on the lessons. Concepts such as love is a decision, commitment is a decision, and forgiveness is a decision are taught at the Post sessions. But this is all reinforcement of the weekend.
In a lot of places Retrouvaille contacts both spouses and asks each if they are going to the weekend with an open mind and a willing heart. They didn't do that here in Tampa, when we went, but I've heard from others that that was a requirement. How open minded and how willing a heart is not measured. She just has to say yes.
Sara,
Thank you for your suggestion. There is still enough there that I think if I could get her to agree and attend things would work out. I am pretty detached at this point, I want things to work but I'm also ready to move on if I have to.
Well W wants to talk Saturday, we have been talking about sitting down for a while. She knows where I stand and has dropped some good hints but she also might be trying to let me down easy. It's hard because I suspect an affair and we have approached this subject, my radar after being with her for 10, married for 7 says she isn't lying. I can tell, but now I don't know what to believe. It seems a lot of the trust bank is empty.
Well I'm over on the newcomer board and W delivered the D papers 2 Monday ago. She didn't file them she wanted us to agree on them first, but she won't talk about them with me and after I heard she was working on them I forced her to bring them to me. I honestly don't think she would have if I didn't ask.
So I know the terms of what she wants and I'm willing to agree, my proposal, I'll play it by ear, is that if she will agree to attend, then if nothing changes after I will agree to file uncontested on the terms she has asked for. Not sure how that will go over. She wants to talk so maybe I see how things are going and if not well I toss it out there. She doesn't really know but I have many attorney friends, basically she can't even get what she is asking for, so if she drags it out she will spend a fortune on attorney fees and end up worse off. I don't want to do that to her, but at this point I have to protect myself. Hopefully things go in a positive direction.
Either way I have been doing great, my GAL has really turned out well and I'm having a really good time. I spend most free nights out with people and have reconected with some old friends. The house is mine, she left and wants no part of it, I'm really enjoying it and gardening. I have done some work on it and she was sort of upset when she saw the changes I made to it, but she won't be here so I keep doing what I'm doing.
It's hard, she is a very attractive women, men blatently hit on her even when she had her ring, we never even came close to an issue prior, but the last year has been down hill and hard. I love her unconditionaly and I'm starting to see that maybe that wasn't reciprocated. It is tough, but tomorrow the sun will rise, I will be alive and who knows what the next day brings.
Keep your chins up everyone, I'm serious, life does move on and there are so many things to be grateful for and be blessed with. This is so cliche but it is truly better to have loved and lost, then to never have loved at all. My M was great, I loved it, but I now see the flaws, my problems and hers. They are fixable, but while you can fix your marriage by your own actions at some point the S does have to either stand with you or apart, not necessarily against but not with. Good luck all!
Sara,
I lack the time to answer both your questions about marriage encounters vs Retrovaille. But Retro IS geared specifically towards M's in trouble, whereas marriage encounters CAN help those with problems and or, be a "tune up" for those just needing a bit of encouragement, or who like going to these things. I attended an Ind "encounter" that my h later attended alone and then we attended together. It was called "Essential Experience" and it was great. Singles were also there so it wasn't all about couples but every couple there, or every married person (19 of 21, actually) said their M's improved dramatically. Mine sure did. The 2 that were not helped in staying M would IMO, have divorced no matter what. But they divorced with more kindness, if you kwim...
One thing that sticks out is that BOTH people will need to change, not just categorize what they've already done. Contyankee, sometimes you recite over and over how unforgiving your wife is, while also listing your grievances about how she and her family have treated you and your family over the years. You do this so much that you seem unable to see how this looks. You discuss YOUR forgiveness of them and how they no longer anger you....and then you, again, mention or list another grievance...I just think you need to do a lot more of what you are preaching. Sorry for the hijack but I only have access to this internet for another few minutes (just moved and haven''t gotten furniture) so I had to say that. CY, to me, you have moved very little from where you were over a year ago. Yes yes I know you DO some things differently, or say you do. But your outlook about your w and M remain pretty much the same. SHE must change, THEY must stop doing whatever and YOU will keep on praying and getting less and less angry and more and more forgiving...only to revert and start up again with your list. That's why you want the letter about what your wife and family have done to you, so YOU can move forward...??? YOu mean you require an apology from her. But I thought you forgave her? What's with the apology? Don't forget CY, she sees things differently and in her heart, no matter what mistakes SHE thinks SHE made, she ALSO sees mistakes you made that you are not even aware of, or don't want to contemplate. ANd you may also believe that a one time apology from you has "erased" those hurts you inflicted, but I doubt that's the case. I simply think the letter you may want to write (and we did this in my workshop/encounter) is a letter YOU write and read out loud NOT to your spouse, but to a third party, and then LOSE the letter---burn it, rip it up, and LET IT GO....sounds ritualistic but it IS therapeutic. It's a forgiveness exercise and requires NOTHING of the "wrongdoer" b/c as you yourself have said, "forgiveness is for US"....so we can move on and be happy, as God wants us to be.
I'll catch up more when I get my stuff. Good luck and btw, imho Sara, only the self centered type of Ind Counseling can really hurt at this stage. Anything that says it's "pro-M" is unlikely to hurt and more likely to help. Can it realistically do harm? Oh, and btw, in case it applies, Essential Experience is very non-denominational and does not directly mention God at all, to my recall, but discusses "source" the "Universe" etc. For me, it meant God, but for others that had issues with organized religion, they liked it presented the way it was. No religious presssure at all. But a lot about keeping our word and our promises in our lives; "broken agreements make for messy lives" is a favorite quote of it.
Good luck,
j-
Confident_Me,
In your reply, you didn't actually reply other then repeat a quote I said. What were you going to say?
CY
Hello CY - I meant to echo your confusion in that you're "wanting" to get your wife along to Retrouvaille but at the same time you've taken your wedding ring off 
It just seemed like you're giving her mixed signals IMHO 
Confident_Me,
At this stage, I don't think it matters. She flat out told me she does not want to work on things. I suppose I could put it back on but to her, at least the way she has projected herself to me, it makes no difference.
CY
J,
I guess you didn't read the posts correctly in this stich. When we talked in the past about this months back, I validated everything she said to me and told her I understand why she felt that way and said that.
When I discuss how I felt, she says, "you shouldn't have felt that way." I am sure if I were to say the same thing to her, that would tick her off.
I did forgive her and her family. I think in the past, if she apolgized to me at the moment, it would have been much easier. Marriage is about Love, Sacrifice and Forgiveness.
I have apologized more then one time for gosh sakes. In fact, many times. What makes you think that in 20+ years I apologized one time? Please don't put words in my mouth based on your assumption. My wife only apolgized to me once this past January after she hit me the last time about 5 years prior. Its hard for me to believe that a spouse who is married over 20 years has only apologized one time for their behavior, action or what they have failed to do. No one is that perfect.
I would be fully willing to make changes but the difference is, my wife will not. Prior to our separation, she yelled out, "If you want to make this marriage work, YOU need to do this, that and the other." Notice, she did not need to make any changes what-so-ever.
As far as her family, there is a huge differnce between them and me. I told her that about 2 months ago, I guy I work with have become friends. He busts my chops, and I do the same. One time, I said something to him about how he looks because he works out so much and told him he needs to wear a bra. Well, he got quite offended and told me so. I hurt his feelings. Within 5 minutes I wrote him an e-mail of a 3 sentence apology. I told him I thought I was being funny and it was never my intention to hurt or offend you. My wife said to me that was cruel what I said.
That is what a mature adult says. He takes accountability for his behavior, recognizes it was in poor takes and makes an apology. Why? Because he is a human being and deserves that respect. That is me. I did not state this last paragraph to my wife.
Then I told her that for years, I kept hearing the same story over and over again about bashing the Catholic Faith by her dad for the last 17 years and the brother-in-law. I told them to basically knock it off. For years, I used the words please and was always polite about it. Don't you think I deserve the same respect when my feelings were being hurt? Apparantly they didn't think so and that hurts. Her reply, they were being funny and you can't expect my dad to change. Then I dropped it because she doesn't get it. Now of course J, you will think she is right and that is your preogative. I don't agree with my wife because people can change, not by themselves, but by allowing God to change them.
I am no longer welcome in their homes and I am find with that. Hmm, the family is working hard to repair this marriage right? Quite frankly, I don't care if I am welcome or not. I only care what God thinks of me and to please HIM, not them. They want to hate me, fine. Its their energy not mine. I still pray for them which I have shared this with my confessor and with the nuns at the Carmelite Monastary. They know as much as you do about all this and they have told me that I am a strong person which I do not even recognize. They are proud of me in how far I have come, especially spiritually. I don't see why they say I have great faith.
The question for my wife and her family is, "are they ready to die and face God for their actions?" I am. I'm not afraid at all. How does God see their behavior? So I am praying for their conversion and have left everything in the Hands of God Himself. Since I am also devoted to Mary, His Mother, I have given my wife to her to give to her Son, His Will be done.
I told her that for years, I felt like an Idiot because I was being corrected on everything I said or did. Many times you said that I didn't pull my weight around here (home). I said I don't know what you expect of me because when I help you, you say, that I am doing this wrong so I stopped helping. My wife said "that is because I am a control freak (which I knew). Why would any other human being want to be controlled by another human being? That's no difference then slavery. If she recognizes she is a control freak, then she should know that is a problem for her.
CY
CY and 25years,
It is a shame that CY is stuck in a unhappy marriage, particularly one where the in-laws feel comfortable ganging up on him. He is willing to go to Retrouvaille and work on the marriage. As I see it, CY is willing to make changes. Has tried to make changes, but is doing it in a vacuum. W will not participate in the process to let him know exactly what changes she wants to see, and how she will adapt too. I don't think he should be criticized here on the board for opening up to us and trusting us with the inner workings of his marriage. Truth is, one person cannot simply do it alone. That is why Retrouvaille and Marriage Encounter require voluntary participation by both spouses. I am praying that his wife will see that their marriage could be improved by spending one weekend talking about it, and will go to Retrouvaille with him. It isn't a big time investment to improve the quality of her life.
Sara,
Thank you so very much for supporting me on this. It meant alot to me, more then you know. 25years has had some good advice to me in the past which I acknowleged. However, she appears to believe that everything is my fault. Maybe its because she is a woman and will not agree with anything a man says on this topic.
My wife came from a family who believes themselves Self-Righteous in all their actions. Her family is well educated but have no common sense or wisdom. Wisdom comes from the Holy Spirit as Catholics believe. My MIL has a masters in English and grandfather made himself into a millionare. He is a controlling man too.
This past March, my SIL (wife's sister, she has two sisters) stated that her and her husband (husband wasn't there as he was working at the hospital, he is an ER nurse) were having a conversation about the English language and what she repeated has stuck with me. During lunch at the table, She said
"PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE COMMAND OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, WHEN THEY SPEAK, THEY MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT AND THAT IS THE RESPECT THEY DESRVE."
The entire family nodded in agreement. I made no face and gave no answer but was shocked and horrified to say the least. My parents are not educated, but I would never consider to treat them like an Idiot. I don't want to judge them, lest you be judged, but I can judge the action and its terrible to think the way they do. I believe anyone is deserving of respect, no matter who they are. The cleaning people wear I work have a below average IQ. But they come around and are friendly. I would never consider to treat them like an Idiot.
When I die, I don't believe God will judge me on my grammar, rather my actions and behavior or things I failed to to. I would like to know what will happen if they appear before God, and God tells them about this comment and says, "Did you say this?" They will not be able to deny it, but knowing how they behave as I have seen over the years, they will probably try to correct God's grammar too.
Since my daughter was present, I made sure to talk to her that night before putting her bed. I told her "No matter what a person looks like, tall or short, thin or heavy, black or white, smart or not educated, you need to treat everyone with Christian Charity as Jesus would want you to. Do you understand? She said yes daddy. Sara, now 25years will assume I told her this in an aburpt or strong tone. I told my daughter in a calm and loving way.
Thank you so much for your prayers.
CY
Well now CY, you have ticked me off. I have posted here for over a year and post a great deal encouraging the many good men here. CY, I have posted to you well over a year now, when your screename was different, etc. (Sara, again, sorry for the hijack) and I have listened to your complaints, along with verycrazy and very few others, for some time. You are stuck. Plain and simple. Doesn't make you all wrong. Nor did I EVER say that. On the contrary, I've said you put up with too much for too long, among other things.
But you aren't actually doing anything to change your sitch. Yes yes you have put it "in God's hands", which you did many months ago. But as I said then, are you sure God does not want you to DO anything else? If you are sure that sitting back and letting things go is the way, ---and it might be!!--then how about just doing that?
Let go of her transgressions, or at least stop reciting them b/c it sounds like you have not let go of them if you're still discussing them, even when events are literally years old, and by your words NOW, you are no longer at fault at all for TODAY'S M. Is that accurate?
As for me taking sides with your wife -- you must have amnesia--and worse, because she is female....well, umm, you are flat out wrong and groping for a reason to discredit someone who disagrees with your approach or questions it.
Ask Faithisbelieving, FaithfulH, Emotionalrollercoaster, Was2Sad and a dozen other men on this board how "unfair" I am to men. Then take some time to realize you have oversimplified and inaccurately portrayed my view. Seems to me that when I disagree with you, you distort my words to make me sound extreme. But you are inaccurate and counter-productive. Plus, I never said this was all your fault. You sound silly when you talk like that. Where'd you even come up with that?
I hope your sitch changes. I really do. But I also think life is about making some hard and brave choices. I'm up here in Alaska so I know what I'm talking about. Either let go of your M, or do something for it. That is what I am suggesting. I could be wrong and hey, I'm human. But don't give me the "she takes the female side" poop simply b/c I disagree with your approach. We're above that type of ad homonym attack. This board is all about opinions and I gave mine. Don't attack my motives and then forget the hours and hours I've spent posting to you to encourage you when you were feeling really low. I think you run away from those who challenge you to take the lead in your life.
Like I said before CY, if your life is a novel, who is writing Yours? Do you like where it's going? Is your approach to conflict resolution working well for you?
j-
25,
CY is in a difficult spot. I am theorizing, and shouldn't speak for him, but this is how I see his situation. His Catholic belief system will not allow him to solve his problem by getting a divorce. He is chained to his W for life unless he either rejects his Catholic beliefs or she divorces him against his will. The third choice, which is what he is trying to accomplish, is for him to get her to work with him to make the marriage bearable. He has found the Retrouvaille program, which has the power to help him, so he deserves credit for making a good effort. And he deserves credit for living with a situation that most people would just walk away from. I would rather you did not criticize him on my thread.
That's fine Sara, although I don't think challenging someone to take charge of their life when you've spent so much time posting, is the same as a criticism. And by the way, I am Catholic as well. I understand his dilemma but feel much more choice can be exercised within a M than simply leaving or staying. There is some victimhood going on too, and cannot be overlooked by any of us in our situations.
Maybe you can check out my thread sometime b/c I'm in "piecing" and there is much more hope to your sitch than you may realize. The story is too long to rehash here and it's your thread, so suffice to say that I'm a believer in DBing (and Retrovaille, and mc and marriage encounters and whatever the heck works for a couple) and that I doubt I'd be married without it. In fact, seriously, I am sure I'd be done and gone if I had not picked up the Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting books (I found D.R. a little better, imho).
I thought I had no choice b/c my h had left the home. I didn't chase him (couldn't have anyhow) or berate him but started the detachment process--HUGE and also, totally connected to forgiveness, meaning, without letting go of the harm they've caused you, you cannot detach. BUT that doesn't mean be a doormat nor does it mean you have to forgive overnight or never again look at the harm, but you need to put it aside for awhile just to function. At least I did. My h leaving really hurt so badly that it consumed me. So did my anger. For myself, for ME to survive, I had to somehow not keep staring at the pain and injustice of it all. So, detaching helped immensely. I also read some Marianne Williamson books on forgiveness, in which she has exercises for it. She can be too religious for some people, (Christian in general, but also discusses common themes with other faiths too) and for some people she is too "new agey". I just got a lot out of those exercises and doing the forgiveness work...which led me to start really GAL and eventually, I became stronger and even, dare I say it, "happier"? And guess who noticed things as I got stronger and more detached/distant/moving on? Yep, you guessed it. H started coming around within a few months of my moving forward in my life. No "proof" of a connection. I just know that no matter what happens from now on, I will be alright. I can be happy with or without h. I do love him, but if I had to, I'd make it without him as I did the past 2+ years.
And though our M is not out of the woods by any means, I'd have given us a 10% chance of staying M if you had asked me 2 years ago, or even 1 year ago. Now, I'd give us 2 out of 3. And if things continue as they are, that # will grow. But so you know, that's my time line. Over 2 years, although to my knowledge there was no OW. I know, that does make a difference. But on the other hand, I had nothing to compare my h's sitch to, b/c there was no OW but he chose to leave me and the kids for a .....job in Alaska???? I know, I know, MLC....still, so hard to comprehend. I now accept that I will probably not ever comprehend it, and that's okay. I don't have to comprehend all of his past choices. Heck, I don't comprehend all MY own choices when I look back far enough.
Don't give up. And don't confuse detaching/letting go, with slamming the door shut on a reconciliation. You can move on, and keep the door open, or at least, not locked. Keep on posting, and doing the program. It works.
j-
J,
I found your thread and read through a lot of it. I tried to post there, but it must be locked. You and your H sound like a very interesting, high-powered couple. It's good that you are back together. I hope that Alaska works out better for you this time. My own sitch is that my H and I are back together and happy together after Retrouvaille. It was what we needed to learn how to live life as a family, not married singles. That said, I really should go spend some time with him, as I am on these boards too much lately.
I envy you Sara. One day I hope I can get to where you are right now.
In the meanwhile, I'll live vicariously through you to stay sane. :P
DaveJ,
Every situation is different. Perhaps mine was easier to deal with than most of the others I see here on the board. But for me at the time, it seemed like life or death.
I did not DB. I confronted my husband and demanded he stop the affair. I kept the children informed of the truth, and had them on my side. (Granted they are young adults.) And I threatened an expensive divorce. He was willing to give Retrouvaille a chance under the circumstances. We walked in the door, and Retrouvaille took over. Maybe that is putting it in God's hands. But as I am Jewish, and it is a Catholic program, I didn't see it that way. Still, God reaches us wherever we are.
My H did have a willing heart. He was not as attached to OW as most seem to be. He said he wanted to be appreciated in a loving relationship. If he could have that relationship with me, then that was better than with someone else.
So that will be my prayer for you Dave. That your wife will also have a willing heart. I will pray that she will be reasonable and see that having a good marriage with you is better than having a good marriage with someone else. I will be watching your thread.
God Bless you and thank you Sara. Everything you said is correct about how you see my situation. Friends and family have told me that I should walk away from her for a long time, even before this happened prior to June, 06. They have witnessed my wife's behavior on a number of occassions.
I've grown spiritally and have interior peace now that I never knew existed. I have changed with God's help for humans cannot change themselves. I used to complain about my health and there is a point I am making with this.
For years my left shoulder had pain and it has increased over time. I had arthroscopic surgery in 1989. Today, I cannot strech both arms to pick up something with weight, such as a blender on the 2nd shelf without pain. My right shoulder hurt too. Then about a month ago, I was experiencing pain on my left elbow. That got so severe, that my hand would go numb, fingers would get cold and my hand would begin to shake. It hurt from my right shoulder to my hand. Still, I said nothing or did anything until my dad noticed me move my arm suddenly on a visit at his house and I yelled in pain.
Now I am assuming this is due to over-extensive use on a computer as an accountant. So I surfed the internet and found some causes that it could be. I found tennis elbow, arthritis, tendinitis to a worse case scenerio of Lou Gehrig's disease.
Now I read each one and reflected on the least cause to Lou Gehrig's disease and how would I handle that. I prayed and meditated on it and it didn't take long for me to come up with an answer. First off I would accept what ever it was because to not accept it does no good anyway. I still had the problem. Secondly, I would resign myself to the Will of God and if that is what God Wills, I would rejoice in it too no matter what. I would offer this pain to God for the salvation of sinners. My confessor agreed with me when I approached him with this and it was comforting to hear that God is calling me to do something.
Last week I saw an orthropedist and after x-rays, I have arthritis and bone spurs in both my left and right shoulder and tendinitis in my right elbow. I do some exercises and ice it everyday. The doctor told me to take Advil or some other anti-inflamatory meds but becasue of problems with my digestive system, I can't because I would bleed from there too and I told him that. So he said I will have to gring and bare it and I said I know I do.
The doctor does not know that I have pain on the back of both my legs in the area of the knee cap, especially when I sit for long streches of time. Its not that bad and I can handle it.
I will probably not post to much anymore but will surf your site Sara,
God Bless you all,
CY
Feel free to post CY. The worst is past. We are not professionals on this site. Our opinions are just that, our opinions. Don't take any of them too seriously. If you want professional counseling and people who are accountable for their opinions, that's not usually offered for free.
Sara,
Sweet Babies!! That's my daughter's phrase for when things are "excellent" and I am so glad for you and your H. I have heard many good things about Retrovaille and believe me, if h and I ever go down the rough road again, and IF I can muster energy to do it, (sometimes I think DBing is a once in a marriage type of experience, if you know what I mean) I'd do Retrovaille in a heart beat. Frankly, I am baffled by someone who doesn't want a divorce, who refuses any type of help.
I also totally understand what you mean about too much time on the board. This is a very valuable outlet and without it, I'd be split up I'm sure. Having said that, it's also a bit "addicting" and can replace the intimacy we need to have with our spouses. So, on that note, I'll be going now. Anyway, congrats and welcome to "piecing". As I mentioned, for ME, forgiveness is a process but it's also mandatory. Some posts way back, I think one I wrote to Keepingthefaith (sp?) were about dealing with our anger. I will go re-read what I wrote, b/c I find I'm having a low tolerance (it's as if I'm thinking that since H "owes" me so much for coming here and putting up with his craziness, I ought to get everything else I want....yeah, I'm working on it...)
Don't know if that's an issue for you yet, or ever will be. But take care and keep on keepin' on.
j-
If you haven't give Retrouvaille a chance, then you should. It is only one weekend, and it improves the rest of your lives together. What else can you do in one weekend that will do that much for you?
I am very disappointed to report that my wife made her decision to not attend the New England region Retrouvaille with me, which takes place in 9 days.
We met with a divorce mediator for two hours on Monday evening, and I asked her in 2 or 3 different ways to consider attending Retrouvaille. Even though I emphasized the positive aspects of the weekend, she was convinced that it would be a negative experience for her and one that she could not handle.
I think the real reason is that she has truly convinced herself that divorcing me and being with the OM is the only way she will find happiness in the future. I believe she feels a lot of (Catholic) guilt about what she is doing, and she feels she is not emotionally strong enough to honestly dialogue with me and face the feelings that would come up.
She was crying a lot during mediation, especially as I was opening my heart up to her. Honestly, because of the OM, I did not expect her to say yes to Retrouvaille, but I have been praying and hoping she might agree.
It is so frustrating. I asked her to attend the last Retrouvaille weekend in March 2007, but that was the week she was moving out of our home into her new apartment. I was much more optimistic back then that we could work things out eventually, but clearly, she made up her mind many months ago, and has not wavered from the decision to end our marriage.
LG
Lord G,
I am sorry to hear that. You certainly have tried. Unfortunately, when a spouse is involved with OP and wants to move on, there isn't anything that can be done. If that relationship ends there might be hope, but right now you are stuck.
...Unfortunately, when a spouse is involved with OP and wants to move on, there isn't anything that can be done. If that relationship ends there might be hope, but right now you are stuck.
Yes - unfortunately you are right about that, Sara. There's not much more I can do. With the OM living 3 hours away from W, they haven't spent enough time together to see the not-so-perfect traits in each other, and their R will not be likely to fail anytime soon.
I would like to thank you, Sara, for your generous contributions on this thread and on so many other forums. You provide a lot of positive encouragement and hope which is so important for those of us who are trying to save our marriages.
Best wishes to all of you who will be attending Retrouvaille weekends in upcoming weeks.
LG
That's very nice of you to say, LG. Thank you. I too send my best wishes to those attending Retrouvaille in the upcoming weeks.
LG,
I echo Sara's comments and am sorry she chose not to go. For the life of me, I cannot grasp why someone would prefer tossing in the towel over doing any and all they could do to save their R's and family. Your assessment about the length of time it takes to have her "work through" the R with OP is on target I think. Due to the distance they'll get to avoid too much time together for awhile. But that time will come IF the R continues. It's a waiting game for you, if you can handle it.
For the record, my M is better now, I THINK, than it has been for years. I always fear saying things like that b/c of my fears. But then I realize that This might have been what was required for us to get here. Sadly. Like forging steel with fire, and the burning hurts, but so far, seems as if we're on track despite what I felt a year or so ago. I would NOT have expected this. Goes to show that God does not tire of our requests for miracles. Sometimes I think God believes we should ask for miracles more often, not less. Please don't give up. I am glad I didn't.
I wish you strength and faith.
j-
I said that I would post here about the Retro weekend.
The first thing is...if you can get your spouse there please do it!!
It truly is a life changing experiance! It is hard to explain it, but it makes such a change in our marriage.
I know that right now is still early days, but it gives you a different type of hope.
It makes you look at each other for who you really are, and see what can be.
The presenting couples are truly amazing people to be able to go in front of people they don't know and lay themselves open as they due, nothing is held back...and they truly care about us, and tell us all the time how proud they are of us!
The weekend is a full one, but every minute you are there is so worth while.
The religous side of things is not overpowering, God is mentioned but you never feel like you are being preached to or judged.
I am Catholic, and since losing my Dad my faith had slowly erroded away, however after this weekend I find myself with a new faith in God, and want to return to it. Even my h who is not Catholic wants us to turn back to God, I truly feel that we were pushed to this weekend by some force!
Please feel free to ask any questions you may have! I will be more then happy to answer them!
Please feel free to ask any questions you may have! I will be more then happy to answer them!
Limbo,
Did they talk about the follow up sessions? I'm wondering because the session I'm planning on attending is a couple hours drive, but there is also a location that is more local. I was wondering about the possibility of doing the full weekend away and then the follow up sessions local.
limbo, can you describe the weekend a little bit? How is it done? What made everyone see things differently? Were there a lot of skeptical spouses there in the beginning? How did their thinking change? Thanks!
Dis, the follow up sessions, not to sure about, as to where you can do them...It might be good to stay close that way you are with the same people you were on the weekend with, it might make things alittle easier, also I can see that friendships will be built through this weekend! I would talk to the organizers to see what they suggest.
Dave: the weekend starts off on the Friday night, where you are greeted by people who have done the weekend before, they bring your bags to your room, and try to make you feel comfortable.
You are then off and running.
Each of the 3 presenting couples take turns in doing presentations, each couple through out the weekend will talk about different topics in relationships, and relates that to their own experiences, nothing is held back, they talk very openly about there own experiences and all that was involved.
The whole purpose of the weekend is for us to learn to talk, and be able to talk about our feelings, at then end of each session we are given a question to answer.
One of the spouses are sent to the hotel room, the other stays in the meeting room...we are then given time to write our response, at then end of that time the spouse come up to the hotel room, we exchange our books and read what the other has written, once we have done that we talk about it.
In doing it this way it removes any confrontation, it never felt threatening, from the beginning it felt very safe, and it seems to promote really honesty...at no point did I doubt my H responses, he was totally open.
There are post sessions that they really stress to attend, by then end of the weekend there was no doubt that we would go, we want to continue this learning and work.
I think that there were alot of skeptics, some even said they had been, didn't really think anything could work...you could also here the change in people and the questions they asked, at the start of the weekend you could hear that people were truly feeling hopeless, but by the end there was alot of hope!
You have to go to truly understand, there is alot that goes on, and it is all positive.
limbo, thanks! I REALLY hope my W will be willing to go for the Nov 16th one in Phoenix. I'm hoping that things progress positively in the next month and half or so that my W would be open to it. That would be so nice.... Here's hoping and praying. In the meantime, I guess I keep DBing and keep things positive between the W and I.
I hope so to for you Dave, Retrouville means rediscovery and it truly is!
Hello Limbo and Sara too!
I have been in piecing for 13 wks now - true piecing with no OP involved to muck things up or make it harder than it already is.
H cannot tell me ILY and I get this but then I don't. I know from these boards that the WAS can take a long time getting over the A. We ML almost every other night and we are very affectionate with each other but yet there is little emotional connection for me - I am afraid to say ILY to him due to not wanting to pressure him at all.
This weekend we went to an beer garten - OKTOBERFEST - and after two large beers (and little dinner on my part) we fell into a deep R discussion - basically I am just so afraid of him leaving once again (I have nightmares 2-3 times a week and wake up crying). My fears seem to be getting worse the longer he is away from OW...just like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.
H says he will go to see a C or whatever (he feels we both need to go not just him)... I suggested a Retrouville weekend - we have one coming up at the end of October - 30 mins from home. My parents would have to come out from WI to stay with the kids. Are we candidates for this?? - will it help H open up emotionally to me or is that just going to take time...??? He has some demons he's afraid to share for fear of freaking me out - but yet I tell him I imagine the worst now anyways...(I suspect it's having to do with not fully being over the OW though he's had no contact as far as I can tell...)
Also how long is each follow up session?
Thanks for the info... We can go see our IC/MC that were went to during the A time but this weekend thing seems to focus on the present and I like that!
Thanks for your help!!
HB
HB,
I don't believe that this weekend can do you any harm, and I think that you would benefit from it!
My H would never talk about his feelings, but now he does and he says that he finds this very liberating, it is done in such away that it is not threatening.
I think that if he is willing to go, then take advantage of it!
That's what I was thinking!! How long is each post session? I see two per each Sat. following the weekend session but there are no times listed....
Thanks for your valuable input! I still am so addicted to these boards...I want to help others get as far as we have gotten and yet I still need so much help plodding along...
HB
No problem HB....I feel the same way!!
Our sessions start at 11:30am and finish at 4pm, ours are on a Saturday. They go for 6 weeks, we have 2 more in Oct and 2 in November.
HB,
I think Retrouvaille will be fabulous for you and your husband. It should do exactly what you need done, to focus both of you in on the relationship between the two of you. No outside people. It's wonderful that there is one coming so soon near you. I think you will be very happy with the results.
Thanks!
I just emailed my H the link to their main webpage. My only concern is that I have to work 2 Saturday's a month and may not be able to get to every post session....
I asked H if he was doing this for me and he said no - it needs to be for us - (good answer
).
I am not sure what makes me happy any more - I mean I want him and our R but I need the emotional connection he cannot give right now and not sure if and when he will be able to... We are just taking it day by day.
Things are good - I just don't feel emotionally connected and I hope this weekend thing will jumpstart that! Don't get me wrong I am sooooo grateful to be at this point considering where we were last year - but yet I don't want to be his second choice or for him always wondering what he could have had with OW. He says I am not the second choice - but I feel I am more the 'politically correct choice' if that makes sense. Okay I will stop whining now - just focus on the present and make each day as best as we can...
Thanks for all your support!
HB
HB,
The post session, I know in our sessions, some people have come on there own when the other spouse can't make it, so if your h would be willing that is always an option, and then he can dicuss it with you.
I can only speak of my own experiance, my h and I definately didn't have an emotional connection, and haven't had one for many years, and I can say that the weekend has definately given us that! I don't think that we have really had such a strong connection as we do now...so hopefully it will give you the same, it may not happen quickly, but you will have a different openess.
Because your h is willing to do the weekend and it seems that he wants to for him, then thats half the battle, which will make it alot better, because my H was the same....
I know how you feel, it will still be hard, on the weekend I was slipping back alittle thinking I just can't do this, that there is so much damage and hurt...but I quickly work through this now and it doesn't stay with me like it use to.
So go into this with an open mind and heart, and you will only reap rewards from the weekend!
HB,
I don't know where you live, so you will need to talk to the people who present your Post sessions. One couple in our group had the wife videotape each post session and then watch it at home with her husband, because he worked weekends. They said that worked very well. Also, our group said you can always repeat a Post session the next time it is offered by just contacting them to know when it will be. I'm sure you will find a way to overcome the problem.
My husband and I got the spark back at the Retrouvaille weekend too. It seems like such a miracle, but it really works. Can't say why exactly. It sounds to me like your husband does really want to be with you, but you suffer from negative thinking. We all do that to some extent. This will help you to get over that.
Please post after your weekend so we know how it goes for you. I think you will be very happy with the results.
Thanks you two!
Sara - you are right - I need to stop the negative cycle and I am working on this!! I am just so scared of being hurt again - I feel I trust him far to much to quickly and it has burned me in the past...but that's how I love - I give of myself 100...
CY - Email me privately. I'm liking what I'm reading in your posts. We have a group of men standing in NY/NJ/CT - we meet once a month. Details if you're interested.
Hi Sara or anyone else who has some advice.
Still in limbo but my question concerns Christmas. We always spend Christmas Day at my sister-in-laws house (wife's sister) and her husband and I had that big confrontation last June of '06.
Last year, it was very uncomfortable for me and I am sure for them. My other sister-in-law (wife's other sister) has told my wife that her and her husband do not feel welcome in my home, although I never said they could not come. I of course am accountable based on my wife theory and her sister and her husband. They did not attend my children's birthday this past June.
Anyway, last Christmas, no one really talked to me and I of course feel unwelcome there, as they are full of anger, bitterness, resentment and probably hatred for me. For example, during tthe clean-up of the pots and pans, both of my brother-in-laws and I were helping to clean up. I tried to make small talk, but they didn't respond so I gave up. Then, this past Easter, my sister-in-law had to coax her husband to come to my house because he did not want to go. Once again, I tried to make small talk and recieved One, one word answer to a question of how was work going, and he said "find." That was it.
I also might add, and I really don't care but I want to make a point, my birthday was October 29th and last year and this year it was not acknowledged. Really, I don't care but the reason I am stating this fact is my mother still gave my wife $25 for her birthday this past June.
So now we come to the question. In all honesty, I really do not want to spend Christmas with her family and would rather spend it with my family. I am not saying my wife and children cannot go to her sister's, I would rather spend the holiday where I am loved and respected, not hated and resented.
So when the time comes, how should I handle this? What I would want to say, and not say it in an angry or confrontation tone is:
"Karin, you and I both know that I am not welcome at your family's home and I know they have hard feelings for me. I would rather spend it alone with my family. You take the kids to your family's home for the holidays and wish them all a Merry Christmas for me."
She will probably say either fine, or get confrontational. I am assuming she will get angry and conrontational. If so, I thought of adding, "I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable by my mere presence, especially on the holidays."
CY
CY,
I would leave off the first sentence. Let that go unstated. I would say that my family has asked us to come for Christmas. I assume you and the kids would prefer to go to your sister's. How about I go to my parents' house and you go to your sister's? That way you are not condemning them for any past behavior. You are just saying what you would like to do. You could invite them all to go to your parents' house, eveb though we all know she won't go. Still, then you can say that they were invited. Otherwise she can say that you didn't invite her or the kids to your parents' house. And that's not the case, you were just jumping to the compromise without trying to pull everything in your direction.
On the other hand, if she will not let you out of the Xmas with her family, don't say anything about them not treating you well. Instead say that you don't feel comfortable there. And ask her to speak to them about trying to make you feel comfortable so you won't want to go to Xmas at your family's. Be careful not to insult them. You just feel out of place there, maybe they could make you feel more welcome. That is not accusatory. That is talking about your needs. A different thing entirely.
Sara,
Thank you, those are better suggestions. However, she will know what the real reason is even if I don't say it. Christmas with her family has always been a priority. In the 20 years we are married, we spent ONE Christmas Day with my family. One! For years I wanted to alternate the holidays, but she would not budge.
Her reasons were that my family, all they did was talk around the kithen table. I might add that her family does the same thing around the dining room table. Its petty, I know but as you see, I always gave in because it wasn't worth the argument. That is her mother's doing too. One year, when we were engaged, it was a given that Thanksgiving was with my family, Christmas was with hers. One year, her mother insisted that I spend Thanksgiving with them instead because her middle daughter was going to college that year and it would be the last year with her daughter (which was not really the case). I remember saying, what, is she dying, the LAST YEAR!. Naturlly, my wife agreed with her mom.
In any event, I still went to my parents home on Thanksgiving and as I was eating, my wife, (engaged at the time) says in front of my family, don't eat too much, we are going to my parents in a in a couple of hours. So that put me in a spot to not eat, even though I was still hungry, and insult my mother at the same time. I remember my mom staring at me at her remark. Consequently, I asked for more food which upset my fiance at the time.
I can't help thinking that even if my wife wanted to work or reconcile our relationship, her family will be against it. So that puts her in a tough spot. She has to decide between reconcilation, her own opinions and those of her family, especially her mother.
So you see, regarding Christmas, my wife and her family has to have it their way. But why do I have to spend Christmas, a day Catholics believe that Jesus was born, a day He came into the world because He loved everyone, and spend it among people who hate me? That will be tough and last year, for the 6 hrs I spent there, all they really said was hello and goodbye.
CY
Limbo,
Thanks so much for the insight, I just asked my husband if he would be interested in going. I was really nervous about asking. ( you can read some background from my previous posts)
I have been thinking about it for about 2 months and when everything went south I threw the pamphlet away.
Well this past weekend was nice, and if I didn't know any better I would have thought we were back to normal.(except for intimacy)We talked about R and had some tears but in the end we spent some quality time together.
I thought I'd give it another try since we are at a different place now in the relationship. We are not so angry although he cannot forgive himself and still feels that there is nothing there for me in him.
When I brought Retrouvaille up tonight he said he would bring it to work tomorrow and read it. I told him we could still go through with the seperation if he wanted.We both have lawyers now.
He said he would read it but would make no promises.(That kinda hurt, but at least he's reading it!)
I will keep my fingers crossed and hopefully he wants to come with me with an open mind.
Question is , how am I going to approch him tommoroww about how he feels and if he wants to give it a try?
I don't want to pressure him and yet I want to reassure him that it is between me and him.
I told him it is about the two of us learning to communicate
He is dead set against anything that has to do with councelling or marriage therapy.
I think this may be my last chance. Did I jump at this too quickly? I'm pretty nervous.....
Anything else that I could add to the pamphlet when talking to him tommorrow, from those who have already gone and are also dead set against therapy or coucelling would be great. I really want to make this work by not making him feel pressured.
Thanks
Enlightenlife,
That's good that he will read the pamphlet and consider it. I remember when I first saw the retrouvaille info, I thought they didn't say very much about what to expect in the pamphlet. You are correct, it is not counseling or therapy. It is other couples who have been through bad times together talking about their lives and how they solved their problems. No one asks you to speak about your life at all. You just talk to each other.
The weekend can give you good closure if you decide to separate, or it can be a turning point to rebuilding your marriage. Or I guess it could be nothing, and you come out the same as you go in. But we found it to be a wonderful experience that brought us back together, and opened our eyes to the good qualities in each other.
I think one of the most important things about the weekend is that it helps to see your marriage in a positive light. Instead of focusing on the negatives, you look at the positive. Simply that change in how you look at your spouse and your life is a tremendous help. Now I consciously make the effort to keep my focus on the positive. As a result, it's been almost a year since our Retrouvaille weekend, and we are still very happy together. We didn't lapse back into the old bad habits and hostility.
I hope your husband will agree to go. Making that first step to work cooperatively is really the most important thing.
I'd like to add that's what the presenters say the first night - you will not lose anything by going. The worse case scenario is that you leave exactly as you came on Friday evening.
My H and I are in the post sessions (we had #2 this past Sunday) and it's helping him look within and figure his feelings out. He says he does not love me (or have those feelings) but he is still willing to try...baby steps is all I can get right now. We did not have some huge relationship altering weekend but it did start to remove the fears I had and we no longer feel so paralyzed in moving forward (together or apart is still the issue...)
Good Luck!
HB
Sara,
After praying on what I should do on the Holidays, I will spend Christmas with my in-laws, unless of course I am not invited.
This is an opportunity for me as I see it. Maybe the Lord will touch their hearts by seeing how calm and how much at Peace I am with myself. And if they continue to react the same as far as condeming my faith, I will ignore it and give this to Jesus and pray for them still.
CY
Well I just asked H if he read the pamphlet and he said yes.
Then he made this alien face and said a priest????
I explained to him that it was 1 0n 1 me and him. Can someone please give me more details!!!!!! The pamphlet wasn't very detailed.
What actually goes on there? He thinks this is like a "Koombia retreat" Grrrrr
he said he wants to think about it and that he has a lot on his mind right now WTF ...so do I!!!!!
It is not for a few more months ,I told him and well he had to go to his brothers right now for blah blah blah...who cares
I know this was probably wrong to say but I said "look, whats the worst that could happen? That we get nothing out of it? " "I want it for our communication because ALL we do is walk away when we should be civil(as he's walking away...
)our marriage is over I get it!" Not so good to say I know, but I was so hopeful....
I got in my car before he left and went for a ride....
I could just hit something!!!!
I'll go punch the sh&t out of his pillow!
Can someone give me the details so that I can tell him more detailed version of the wknd?
I'm getting a "brought on by alien headache"
Can someone give me the details so that I can tell him more detailed version of the wknd?
Hiya
Try this for size Best wishes & blessings
I printed that out for him and he read that already.
Not enough for H though I guess
Is there any examples that I can give him! things that have actually been done there ( without being too private)
Enlightenlife,
I will go look for some of my earlier posts on Retrouvaille and post them again here. It's true that they don't tell you much in the pamphlet or the website. That bothered me before I went. But once I experienced it, I relaxed about all that and wondered what I was even looking for. I assure you, there is no campfire, and you hardly ever sing songs. (There is some music that you listen to at the end, when everyone is feeling happy and peaceful.) Most of the weekend is like being at a business conference except more relaxed. You sit in a conference room and listen to the presenters. There are 3 couples who present. They are experienced couples who personally went through a marriage crisis, went to a Retrouvaille retreat themselves, and healed their own marriages. Over the course of the weekend they tell their stories in detail. You get to know their experience almost as if it were your own.
I'll go look for the other posts and put them here. I think I've written this type of thing out before.
Sarah
That would be wonderful.
I would print it out for H
I just called him and said" have a good time at your brothers, I'm sorry"
I figure if there's any chance I don't want to blow it...
Retrouvaille, meaning rediscovery in French, is an organization with support from the Catholic church that holds weekend retreats around the world to help people heal their broken marriages. They have a website,
http://www.helpourmarriage.org. The program works by example.
It is in the format of a conference. It begins right after you get there on Friday night. The first couple starts talking about the pain in their marriage. At first it's surprising to hear people be so open and honest about their lives, and about things that most people try to hide, like infidelity or abuse. But these are couples who have experienced misery in their marriages, and they are sharing their stories with you -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. They sit in front of you, with occasional tears in their eyes, holding hands and giving each other support, telling you openly and honestly about their lives, what went wrong, and how they fixed it. The presentations probably last about an hour and then you are given a question to answer in your notebook. The men stay in the room to write; the women go to the bedrooms. The next time you get a question it will be the men who go to the bedrooms to write. Once the time is up, the couples meet in the bedrooms to share their writings. Then there is a snack, and that's it for friday.
Saturday morning begins with an optional Mass and breakfast. Then the presenters begin again. On Saturday you are taught how to dialogue with your spouse. This is a written communication technique which allows you to express yourself without interruption. It is superior to conversation. You practice doing dialogues with your spouse, in private. They give you questions to dialogue about. These questions help you and your spouse understand each other at a deeper level than you ever could by simply talking. You break for lunch, dinner, have time for walks on the grounds of the retreat, etc. Sunday you continue with dialogue and learn about the Post sessions. It closes with a Mass. (My husband and I were a little rude and left before the Mass. No one ever said anything about it.)
The initial program takes a weekend. You can do it in your home city or go somewhere else and make it a mini-vacation. There are six follow-up, or Post sessions. You would want to do those locally. The Post sessions are very important to strengthen the couple after the weekend. They help you to continue the openness and understanding with each other. They teach concepts like, love is a decision. Or, marriage is like a building supported by four posts: love, commitment, trust, and forgiveness. If you break one of the posts, like trust, and if forgiveness is weak, then the building comes crashing down. To rebuild the marriage, you must begin with a good foundation, and then rebuild the four posts.
While it is sponsored by the Church, it is open to all. My husband and I are not Catholics, and we benefited tremendously from the experience. We did not find the presentations by the priest to be too slanted to Catholic doctrine. He was there to be of service to the Catholics in the room who wanted his services. We were told not to confess new things to each other -- the priest was there to take confessions. I found that interesting. They do not focus on the past, they focus on building a new future together.
Retrouvaille helps you to look at the positive things about your marriage and your spouse and stop looking at the negatives. And it teaches you to communicate, not to win an argument, but to understand the other person's feelings. Those two things really turned our lives around. Instead of thinking all day about why I was mad at my husband I started to think instead about the nice things he did. And we both changed. We changed the way we looked at each other. We changed the way we interacted with each other. We changed the way we were. Our friends have noticed the change and commented on it.
Retrouvaille was a turning point in our lives. It was probably the single best thing we have ever done together in 27 years of marriage. Everyone should learn what they teach early in their marriage. It's a shame to wait as long as we did. And it is not a big time commitment. Less than 48 hours. What else can you do on a weekend that has such a big reward? I can't think of anything.
:)thank you so much
I will print this and pass it on.......(keeping my fingers crossed)
thanks
You're welcome. Ediemarie, Limbo or Heartbroken might have something to add to it.
Sara, I couldn't have put it better myself!
I am catholic, and my H isn't, so I was worried also how he would react but the religious element is not to much, nothing is "pushed down your throat".
Everyone's goal for the weekend is to save marriages, and the religion I felt is there for additional comfort, and support.
In fact for us(me) it has renewed my faith, and my H and I are trying to return to it, we have started to go to church, and H is thinking about converting.
But you take only what you want, there is no pressure of any kind.
So I sent an email to one of the couples for the local Retro asking for post session materials since the W doesn't want to attend. So far it's almost 2 weeks and no response. I guess I can try a different couple see if I get any response....
I don't suppose anyone would be kind enough to send me a copy of the workbook/material etc? I would be glad to play shipping and any additional expenses for reproduction.... Thanks!
I guess NM for now. As soon as I post I get a reply. Must be God at work here. :P
Dave,
My book is about 170 pages, and I've written in a lot of it. So it would be quite a project clean it up and then xerox it. If you can't get one any other way I'll look into how much it would cost to copy it. But it would be best if you could get one through your local group.
em - sorry for my confusion, are you now "el"??
Hope you are doing well.
Hi Sara, it has been awhile since i've posted and have been working hard to make things at home peaceful.
Approached W about retro last weekend, as we have one close to our area the weekend of Jan 19. I just printed the opening page to the retro site and gave it to my W to read. It just states about the 4 stages of marriage.
W looked at me and said, "Isn't it too late for that"? I told her that I didnt think so. I also told her that we need to communicate better and this will help. I told her to read and think about it, and she can tell me in a week or so her response.
Well she hasnt thrown away the info, and I dont know if she has really read it, but I guess I have to look at the positive, in that she didnt say no.
W is away today at a bridal shower, and I will need her answer soon so I can schedule the weekend.
If she doesnt agree to the weekend, I am going to have to go to plan B, which is to tell her she needs to decide what it is she wants, and when is she going to move out. It is so hard to be in the same house with her, even when we are in seperate rooms.
W has been much more talkative over the last few weeks, and has actually changed a little in that she is telling me where she is going and actually called home friday nite to tell me she wanted to go to a new restaurant and was leaving work at that time.
She has been very secretive over the last few months, and is trying very hard to be independent.
The holidays are going to be hard, as we will I am sure go our seperate ways to each others families.
S18 came home from college on thanksgiving and told me that her side of the family, all except the IL's, know that what the W is telling everybody is a lie. He also said not to worry about what she is saying, and not to stoop to her level. S wants to study psychology, and I think now that he is ticked off at his mom to the point that he was home for over a week, and only slept here maybe 2 nights.
Have to hope that the W will go to retro, to at least work on the communication part. I have to keep praying that this will all work out. Thank you for letting my steal a little of your thread. Thanks to all of you for your honesty in telling your experiences with retro. Take care.
Scottymack,
No, it is certainly not too late for retrovaille. Retrouvaille is meant both as a last ditch effort before divorce, and as a choice for those knowing they want to reconcile. Some people go there after divorce. Divorce does not end your relationship with your wife. You have children together. You will have holidays, graduations, illnesses and injuries, weddings and grandchildren together. Divorce is not an end at all. You might was well work on communication to get through all the stuff that remains in the future.
Scottymack, there was a couple that was divorced at our Retro weekend that came back together.
Sara and DaveJ, thanks for your support. I guess I am just scared as to what her answer will be. If she says no, I have got to get some backbone and tell her that it is time for her to move on with her life if that is what she really wants.
I really dont think she wants to move on, b/c if she does, she will not have her kids around her all the time, plus I think that the house is her comfort blanket and that she really is living in a fantasy world.
She wants a D, she wants to be alone, she wants no relationships, she wants out, and she is still here.
DaveJ, read some of your sitch, when did you go to your retro weekend, and did it work out
Sara and DaveJ, thanks for your support. I guess I am just scared as to what her answer will be. If she says no, I have got to get some backbone and tell her that it is time for her to move on with her life if that is what she really wants.
I really dont think she wants to move on, b/c if she does, she will not have her kids around her all the time, plus I think that the house is her comfort blanket and that she really is living in a fantasy world.
She wants a D, she wants to be alone, she wants no relationships, she wants out, and she is still here.
DaveJ, read some of your sitch, when did you go to your retro weekend, and did it work out
Scottymack, we went to the Retro 11/16/07. As far as working out, I guess I probably won't be able to tell you for a long while. Retro does different things for different people. For some people it's instant awakening, and some others, not as much. But overall it's very positive. I know that my W is no longer determined that we are done. I know she's saying she no longer knows, which is a positive I think. I believe she's in the wait and see mode and see how things develope between us. She is interested in improving our communication and see where that leads. She has also has said that her head is telling her to give it another try, but her heart is just not in it (yet I feel). I think it will take some time for her to let go all of her anger/resentment. She tends to be stubborn and all. However I do notice that she has let go some and not as angry as before. So I would have faith and give it a try. You got nothing to lose really.
BTW, don't make Retro a condition for her to stay in the house. If you do that then she will just go through the motion and get nothing out of it. Make it about improving things between you two. Communication, interaction, stop fighting, for the kids, etc.
DaveJ, thanks, I have been bothered by what I think I need to do if she says no, to how and what will continue if she says no.
Read alot of your sitch, especially the posts by DomR about not moving out of the house.
I have no intentions of leaving, and at this point my W is the same.
Your point about communication, interaction, and for the kids, is what I have talked to her about when I asked her. We never really fought for the 22 years that we have been M, other than a few little spats that I wouldnt really call fights. I have been giving her space and have basically become her friend as far as I am concerned.
My kids are both in college, and already my S18 knows alot of the sitch, as I have been as truthful as possible when he asks questions.
My W is in la la land, as she has said that she doesnt want to involve the kids. I dont care how old the kids are, they will be affected no matter what. I cant imagine being them, growing up with us for this long, and mom wants a D. My S knows what is in the D petition, and he just says that mom is lying. What a shame. If the D goes through, she will destroy whatever R she has with her kids.
She has some serious MLC, with empty nest and depression thrown in.
Ouch Scottymack. Sorry that you are in this sitch. Is there anyway your S18 can talk to the W? Or do you think she really doesn't care to listen no matter what?
As far as moving out, it really depends on individual cases. If you can stay at home so much the better. I didn't really have much of a choice. At least from where I am right now I think it's giving us a better chance in saving the M. I'm very certain if I insisted on staying my W would've filed for D already.
DaveJ, W is a stubborn as the day is long. As long as I can remember, she has never apologized for anything. She is spoiled brat, and now she has her mommy and daddy supporting her 100%.
She works with mostly divorced women, and is constantly hanging out with one that has been married twice and must not be happy in the second M, b/c she is with my W most of the time.
Tonite she mentions that she wont be home for dinner the rest of the week, as she is going to watch nephew play bball tuesday nite and my S plays college ball wed nite, and then she is going to St Michaels MD thurs and friday with her co-worker to hang out and shop for christmas. Yeah right. The OM lives not far from there, and when she went away a few times over the summer, she went to the same area and it was always thurs into friday.
When I found an email she sent OM in april, it had directions to a hotel, plus they were going to meet thursday and friday.
She must really think that she is in the drivers seat and is in control of the whole sitch.
I dont have to do anything as far as the D for another 22 months, but i dont know how long i can hang in. If she will go to Retrouvaille, maybe things will change. If not, I will have to decide if the M is worth the hassle, and if I can last that long. My L says that I am in the drivers seat as far as D goes, b/c the judges in my county look down on adulterous spouses who file. She makes alot more money than i do, so there is a real good chance of me getting much more than she does. Right now it would be a 65-35 split. That means that I can get the house and that would be a major coup if that happens.
Have to keep positive and not let what she does affect me.
If she did move out, she would probably do these things anyway.
She is trying to be independent and show me that she can do things. Big deal!
I can cook, clean, sew, fix things, and do a hell of a lot more than my W. If the D goes through, she will find out what it is like in the real world.
Well, last night I sent an email to her asking if she would attend retrouvaille weekend with me. Here is her response. "Its all about working on marriage or a way to see if ending the marriage is really a good idea. I told you more than enough times that I have moved on and am not going to come back. We really don't need to learn how to talk to each other. Once you have moved on it will be easier for me to actually talk to you, because now when we talk it ALWAYS goes back to you having to bring up me giving you another chance so you can show me how you have "changed". I'm sure down the road, if we are ever friends it will be easier to communicate with each other. This is a line from the site, "You will, however, be encouraged to put the past behind you and start rediscovering each other". Right now I do not want to rediscover you I want to end it and continue to live my life as I am living it right now. I AM HAPPY, and just want to put this all behind me".
Scottymack, I haven't read your whole thread, but from the last page, you could be writing my thread for me.
Sorry to see you here, but since we're in this boat already, it's a great place to be.
I just wanted to tell you that as far as living in the same house, I questioned that a lot just after the final D bomb. I almost asked her to move out, but finally decided that it was better to stay in the same house for now. It appears our D be final a few weeks into the new year, and I suppose she'll move out then. (assuming I get to keep the house.)
In retrospect, I'm really glad that I didn't ask her to move out. The part of DBing about being a safe place that they can return to is why. Immediately after the D bomb, I was not doing a good job of that at all. Since I have gotten my act together, I have been doing a pretty good job of that. I am doing a lot for myself, and also making our home someplace desireable to return to when she realizes the grass isn't greener over there.
One small difference is that our kids are little, and still at home.
Like your's, my W is STUBBORN, and hates to apologize for anything. That's worrisome, because I wonder if she won't just stick with a bad situation out of stubborness.
Take care of yourself and stay strong.
Wow, mwel, what a selfish sob. "We really dont need to learn how to talk to each other". Huh? She is happy? Maybe at the moment, but I will venture a guess that she will be miserable sometime in the future, as most WA's are. She may then realize what she lost and it will be too late.
It is amazing how many people that i have talked to over the last few months that have been D, (kinda like buying a new car and as you drive, seeing all same cars on the road) and the majority have said that the walk away spouse has come back a few years later to admit they made a mistake. Isn't that sad?
Hang in there, life will get better.
Wow, mwel, what a selfish sob. "We really dont need to learn how to talk to each other". Huh? She is happy? Maybe at the moment, but I will venture a guess that she will be miserable sometime in the future, as most WA's are. She may then realize what she lost and it will be too late.
It is amazing how many people that i have talked to over the last few months that have been D, (kinda like buying a new car and as you drive, seeing all same cars on the road) and the majority have said that the walk away spouse has come back a few years later to admit they made a mistake. Isn't that sad?
Hang in there, life will get better.
Yes I know, she is selfish. She is a “ME” person. Everything must be about her.. I told her that I would like to talk to her again and that I think we needed to learn how to talk with each other.
She says that she is happy. She has OM and she is happy.. Not to sound mean but I hope that she will be miserable sometimes and I hope she realizes what she had and lost…and when (if) that day comes I just hope that I have the strength to tell her how I feel…maybe I would want her maybe I wouldn’t. Right now I pray that she comes back to admit that she made a mistake, I don’t know if I will say the same thing in the future..
It is sad that the majority of WAS come back and admit it, when they could have prevented from the beginning. M is work, it doesn’t come easy. I wish my W would realize that.
I’m hanging by a thread…I hope life will get better…
mwel, sounds like your W and mine are very much alike.
My W said she knew that the M was over about this time last year when she said that I wouldnt pick my D up at college for fall break. I spent over 5 hours back and forth on fridays picking up D and then doing it all over again on sunday to get her back.
D had major trouble adjusting to being away from home, and she called my W 24/7.
Apparently I had tried to get D to make friends and to try to find rides home, so that made me a bad dude. Turns out D couldnt find a ride home, so W and I went up after work on a wednesday and brought her home.
D eventually found friends and did get rides home for a few weeks, and then decided she didnt want to go back after the holidays, and is now commuting to a local college.
I kept asking, as well as the C, what all this has to do with our R. She had no answer. C told me that when they dont answer, they know that they dont have a leg to stand on, and clam up rather than give an answer.
W was somewhat LD about 10 years ago, and she said she knew that it was her problem and had to fix it herself. She also said that she thought about leaving then, but she had no place to go.
She apparently worked it out, as I thought up until a few months ago when she dropped the bomb, that my M was as good as it gets.
How could I be so blind! If the S doesnt ever mention that they are unhappy, are we supposed to be able to read their minds?
How can someone profess to be so unhappy, and be able to have that outward appearance of happiness?
I still say that W may have thought about leaving again, but alot hinges on empty nest, turning 50, major stress at work, and finding the old high school boyfriend on the internet.
He came on at the right time when the W was apparently on an emotional low and the excitement for the W began.
One thing I will never understand when I hear all the stories of friends and clients with the same problems, why don't S open their mouths and talk about what is bothering them? It would save so much heartache. I just imagine if I knew even a year ago that the W was unhappy, what we could have done to keep from getting to this point.
Sara, sorry to steal your thread.
IMHO ... be extremely wary about going to Retrouvaille if she's not in a good frame of mind. It MAY work if and only if BOTH have at least some hope/desire to save the marriage and faith in God and give it ALL they have.
When I went they seemed to have done a lousy job of screening for my W's motivations and attitude in attending. Turned out her motivation was not to try to "save the marriage" but to make it "easier to divorce". And she claimed she was "coerced" into going even though they supposedly screened her for that as well. The Retrovaille folks try very hard to get couples to just "show up"; after that you're pretty much on your own. It seemed too intense and busy and the hotel was also very crowded. They apply too much pressure to attend the sessions, dialog etc. that sort of went against the DBing principals of give the other person more space and time and this turned W off further. While there, W also conveniently declared she was now no longer Catholic, did not attend the masses, etc. So it turned out to be a very traumatic, humiliating and expensive($$$) weekend for me. I know it has helped others as evidenced by the speaker couples, but you take you chances.
Even if Retrovaille does soften up the WAW its only the afterglow of 1 weekend organized by non-professional people who do not take any responsibility for the outcome. So it needs solid/more formal follow-up measures. Besides "dialoging", most couples would probably require months of years of follow-up C, marriage education, etc.
fb2,
I don't know where or when you went to Retrouvaille, but your description does not match the event I went to at all. While they do ask participants if they will attend with an "open mind and willing heart", the couples self-select to go. That is, Retrouvaille did not recruit you, you chose to go there. If your wife ambushed you and was uncooperative, that is not their fault. Certainly that can happen. They do not have a 100% success rate in saving marriages. But the success rate is over 50%, and that is very impressive.
And no, their philosophy has nothing to do with DB. It is a different philosophy completely, based on honest and open communication. They do not suggest that you "act as if..." They suggest that you accurately and completely describe your real feelings, and share them with your spouse. You cannot both be open and create mystery at the same time. If you go to Retrouvaille, you must drop the DB while you are there.
I particularly don't understand your comment that it is just one weekend with no formal follow-up. There are six follow-up "Post" sessions, and if you want to repeat any of them at a later date you can.
Another thought that I had.
Retrouvaille is excellent at dealing with communication problems between spouses. If that is the source of the marital problems, then fixing communication fixes the marriage. However, often there are deeper underlying problems that come to light once the communication problem has been fixed. What I have observed is that in a lot of cases one spouse is chronically depressed. This depression has been driving the antagonism within the marriage. Retouvaille cannot fix these sorts of problems. However, it can bring them to light. Then it is up to the couple to seek the help they need either through counseling or medical treatment to deal with the underlying problems. But improving the communication can only help.
And yes, fb2. If you attend Retrouvaille, you are expected to show up for the sessions and do the dialogues. That is what you went there for. The program can only work if you give it a chance. The weekend is work; working on your marriage. If you want a quiet weekend at a hotel to give each other space, then just book a vacation at your convenience. I do know that they prefer to hold the weekends at monasteries and other quiet locations, and avoid the hotel scene. But that is not possible in every city. They do the best they can to help as many people as they can.
Sara,
My wife certainly did not come with an "open and willing heart" , crowded/busy places don't help and you don't quite know the details prior to attending - they intentionally kept it a bit mysterious. That's why I caution that its important to go in the right spirit or it will not work. Otherwise I agree 100% with your comments.
I myself prefer "open and honest communication" to "as if" which is why I initiated going. And you are also right about the depression - I think it was the case with my wife as well but I did not catch it early enough because it was masked by continued hostility. At any rate I'm glad it worked out well for you and hope you can keep up the dialogs.
So I have read this entire string and can see that there is some benefit to Retro and that it is a challenge to get a spouse to come. So.... I guess I need to stop and reflect on how I can get my W to come to the session in Jan in our town.
I appreciate all of the excellent thoughts and ideas already posted herein. My hope is that some of this renewed intimacy that she and I have had over the last week or two will ignite some additional feelings in her and help her to go. My fear is that she has a home party the weekend of the event and I need to pray that she will give up the party and the income to work on our marriage.
I am so hopeful sometimes, and then others I am completely without hope. All the while she is holding out for Jim Halpert!
So, I appreciate any suggestions that you all may have, but really I would ask for you to pray for Mrs. Hound in hopes that she will attend. I still think that there is something very special under the surface of all of this mess....
Houndfan,
Yes, getting there is the hardest part. We attended the program in Tampa. FL., where it was held at a monastery. If you are on the west coast of Florida, I would recommend that one.
Thanks Sara, I am in the Orlando area, so I am not sure where it will be held. But I have hope that she will turn the corner and at least give it a shot. I am not sure why I feel this way, but I think that by mid-Jan we will be almost 4 months into this and it will be about the time that I hear about my new job transfer, so maybe the combination of events will help her to have some clarity about the decision.
I just hope that she has the opportunity to quiet her mind and heart and think this all out.
Thanks for all of your comments on this thread, you are certainly someone who is guiding many of us. I am so grateful that this experience has turned out different for your M that it may for some of us on here. Congratulations!
Hi Sara, havent had a chance to post lately, but W still hasnt given me an answer as to whether she will go to retro, but I am keeping up hope.
She is trying so hard to be independent, thinking that she will be ok if this D goes through. She proudly announced on monday nite that she and her D friend, were going away for a few days on the eastern shore of maryland to visit a place that she says I would never go to.
Apparently about 10 years ago, W suggested we go to this same place for vacation and I said no. I dont remember any of this, but I do remember going to the shore a few times.
I asked to have an answer when she comes home this weekend, as we need to get scheduled before it fills up.
Our session is going to be held at a monastery, and with my W still going to mass most mornings, I have to hope that there is still something in her heart that may change.
My biggest hurdle is that the W works with so many D women at work. One in particular is M a second time, and has to be unhappy in that M b/c she spends alot of her time with my W.
Talked to the priest that married us as he has been in contact with my W. He said that she wasnt gung ho on doing the retro, but I didnt think you needed to be totally 100% intent on staying together to do this.
As I have read in this thread, there are alot of M on the brink, as well as D and seperated attending.
W hasnt said no, so I guess that is a good thing.
Scottymack,
I don't think both spouses need to be "gung-ho" on attending Retrouvaille. But on the other hand, the more willing she is to go, the better. Retrouvaille does ask if the relationship with the OP is over before you go. They have found that those with on-going affairs are less likely to benefit from the weekend.
I wish you luck with getting her there. And don't feel bad, I wouldn't go to a mid-Atlantic beach in the winter either. Unless you are a landscape painter, a windy, cold beach is not a fun place to hang out.
Hi Sara, havnt posted for over a week, as I have been very busy with work and I really need a break from all the stuff that is on here and my sitch at home.
W still wont give me an answer as to whether she would go to retro, although I found out that she shredded the info that I gave her a few weeks ago. Why she wouldnt just throw it away is beyond me.
I have been continuing to DB, and I have made myself notes as to what I have done in the past months that have gotten positive responses from my W.
The biggest is GAL, as I had slacked off that a little over the last month b/c of the time change and weather, but I started again last Sunday, as I met friends for dinner.
Actually I was backing out of the driveway to leave when my W was coming home. As my S18 says, Sweet.
When I got home later that evening, I found out that she shredded the retro info, and I am sure that she was ticked off that I wasnt at home. Why else would she have done that? The info was on her computer desk for two weeks, and if she wanted to shred them, she had ample time.
This past week, I just left the house several times, actually going shopping for the holiday, and I came and went unannounced.
Amazing how much interest my W had in where I was. She kept telling me about what was happening in her life, and I just validated and didnt say a word about where I was.
I belong to a stock club, and have not been to many meetings lately, but decided to attend the meeting thursday evening.
W had a christmas party at work, so it was perfect for me to go without her knowing where I was. Came home a little late, and the wife was all chatty about her party and how busy she was at work. I said I was glad she had fun, but didnt say a word as to where I was.
Saturday I got a card in the mail from my stockbroker, and it was fascinating to see my W interested in who it was from.
My broker is a good looking woman, and in fact everyone in her office is female, so the card was a group picture of some very nice looking ladies! LOL
W tried to get close to me when I opened the card and I just told her that it was from a woman friend I used to know.
Wow! All of a sudden the W is showing curiosity about what I am doing!
She has been very nice to me today, and she even said she would see me later when she left a little while ago to go see her parents.
Talked to the counselor on thursday about what to do about my sitch if she wont go to retro. He said that she is probably so far into her funk, that it will probably take something major to happen for her to come around.
I dont know how long I can continue to do this, as it gets harder and harder every day.
I have been thinking about having a family meeting and spilling the beans to my kids, but then I have these guilt feelings that I am going to hurt my W.
My kids are already hurt, but dont know what the reaction will be when they find out about the OM.
Found out that my W has an appt with the OBgyn this wednesday, and I saw him at a bball game friday and talked to him at length about W.
He is going to talk to her about menopause and depression, and he hopes to get her on some medication that may help with the hormones and mood swings. We have known him for a number of years, and he mentioned that he sees many W come to him with hormone problems and problems with depression.
Most people on these boards say that nothing will help with MLC, but I am still not convinced that hormones and depression arent causing alot of the problems with the W.
Hoping against hope.
Again Sara, sorry for stealing your thread. Scotty
Hi Sara,
Remember me? Its CY
My wife and I haven't had a relationship talk since June because at that time, she told me she is not interested in working on improving our relationship and she admitted to me she does not love me.
Quite honestly, I have felt that way for a long, long time that my wife did not love me. Married over 20 years this past May with 2 children. I saw signs early on. Her yelling and swearing at me began 2 months after we were married when we went on a 3 day vacation. We packed a lunch and when we got back home, I brought up our luggage to the 2nd floor unit (we lived in a Condo and our unit was on the 2nd floor) when I heard glass shatter and her screaming. Thinking she hurt herself, I ran into the kitchen. She belittled me, yelling and cursing me out that I did not put the Strawberry Jam in the refrigerator before we left for vacation. I said nothing, cleaned, picked up the glass and mopped the floor. I remember thinking that what could I have done to prevent this? The crazy part of this is, I packed a turkey sandwich and she made a peanut butter and jam sandwich. In addition, we are talking about a jar a jam, a $2.00 jar of jam.
Apologize for it??? Not a chance. Her way of making ammends for her behavior was to make me a special dinner, buy me a gift or initiate sex, when all I really wanted to hear was those two words, "I'm sorry." Its my fault that I didn't address this back then but I didn't realize this at the time.
I SHARE THIS STORY SO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MY WIFE'S BEHAVIOR ESCALATED OVER TIME. THE OUTBURSTS BECAME MORE FREQUENT AND MORE SEVERE AS TIME WENT ON. THE CONSTANT CRITICISM ABOUT ME, AND MY FAMILY WAS JUST TOO MUCH FOR ME. I STOPPED LOVING MY WIFE A LONG TIME AGO. I SHARE SOME OF THE BLAME THOUGH BECAUSE I DID NOTHING ABOUT IT. I BECAME AFRAID OF HER AND MANY TIMES I FEARED FOR MY SAFETY, NOT THAT I THOUGHT SHE WOULD SERIOUSLY INJURE ME THAT I WOULD BE SENT TO THE HOSPITAL OR WORSE, BUT BECAUSE SHE HAS HIT ME IN THE PAST.
Do I believe that love can return? Absolutely!!, but only with God's help. The living arrangements in the home are still the same. Today, I am much more at peace with myself as I turned my life to God. That is what gets me through each and every day. I still don't know what she plans to do other then she is waiting for that full time position.
There have been some changes from each of us though. I stand up to her now so she can't try and pull her temper on me and expect me to say nothing like before. I figure, what is she going to do anyway, and have taken sometimes a "who cares attitude" of what she thinks. The one difference I see from her now is once she started seeing me stand up to her, she respects me and doesn't talk against me or my family anymore. I don't yell at her when I stand up to her, I just state my position as a matter of fact.
I don't get angry anymore by her or anyone else because I refuse to give anyone that kind of power over me. Consequently, my stress level has decreased and I am much calmer then I have ever been. In fact, I don't remember at anytime in my life of being such a calm person. I am much more kinder to people and that was something I stopped doing for many, many years after the poor treatment I got.
Even my few close friends and family have noticed such a calmness about me and for the 1st time in my life, I feel like a man where I never felt that way before. I am who I am, no more or less. God knows who I am more then I know myself and I thank him everyday for helping me to forgive people who have never apologized to me and it doesn't matter to me if they apologize to me or not. I am very happy about that.
I purchased an outside statue of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel (Mary holding the child Jesus) that I will be putting out in my front yard. I bought it for myself for Christmas. I was going to put it out on Christmas morning but the thumb on Jesus was broke so I have to order a new one. That may not sound like a big thing to you, but in the past, I never would have done that because I knew my wife wouldn't approve of it nor would she want that. She always told me she has to see everything I wanted to purchase because she does not have the same taste as I do. It was only $65 dollars and I always wanted that statue since we moved into our house in 1991.
My wife she purchased one of those robatic vacumn cleaners. She consolidated our credit card bills and when I asked if we had money to purchase that, she said it was a Christmas present to herself. Those things cost about $250. I always let her decorate our home, regardless if I liked the painting she bought or not because it made her happy. I never gave my opionion on such things because what would I have to gain? If I said I didn't like this or that and told her what I thought of it, it would only hurt her feelings and you should never do that to someone you love.
I was raised that you do not give your opionns or give advice unless you are asked. I still believe that. On the other hand, my wife admitted to me that she has every right to state their opinions. She pulled that on me this past June when she got angry at me and my family because my parents do not want to sell their home, the only home they have known to live in a retirement community. I finally told her why this is any of your concern? Her response to me was that she and her family feels this would be best for my parents. I said that even if I wanted them to do as you say, what makes you think they would? If I were to try and sell that pitch and force them to do so, don't you think that my 4 other siblings will have a say to me? I'm sure they would be upset with me and you. So she leaves, slams the door and says that my family is so stupid.
Later, when she calmed down, I told her that I never speak that way about your family and its no wonder that our kids seem to never want to visit them. She says, I never told them that. I said, no, not directly, but indirectly you have said this to me for at least 200 times (yes, two hundred) over the course of our marriage and our children are not deaf and stupid and can hear your angry outburst. I don't like that and do not appreciate it. She said nothing but has not repeated that behavior since.
I was not given the gifts from God to have many talents (i.e. musical talent, art, things like that) but God did give me the grace to be kind and charitable so I am doing alot more of that and I am happy about that.
I spent Christmas Day with her family and I only see them twice a year which is what they want. In the past, I used to care what they thought of me, not anymore. I only care what God thinks of me and if I do things that pleases God, I don't care what others think of me. I haven't had this much confidence in myself at any other point in my lifetime.
Christmas Day went well and they actually respected me and treated me with common courtesy as they would want to be treated, which is all I really wanted. I don't remember that happing for many, many years. I prepared myself before visiting them and promised God that if they did chastise me because of my Catholic Faith, I was going to pretend I have cotton in my ears and give no response. It was actually pleasent not to hear from FIL that Jesus is full of SH__, things in the Gospels are bullSH__ and other related topics of converation that brings out his ignorance. I feel sorry for him on this because he is an unbeliever in the love for God. I once asked him many years ago during one of his opinons on this and said to him, "Don't you care about your soul, where you will spend eternity?" He responded with, "I would rather be in Hell because I will have alot more fun."
That is what my FIL thinks. That is sad and he is speaking that way out of ignorance because he does not know any better. I pray for him everyday that he will change his way of thinking as I do for all of them that they will all be converted. Its really amazing to me that I can pray for them now and not have any ill will feelings towards any of them. I know that this is a gift from God to me which is why I am happy about that. I pray everyday to have an increase of Love, Faith, Trust in Hope in God. To me, the one word that describes God is Love and that is the kind of person I want to be.
Hope all of you had a blessed Christmas and a Happy Hanukah. God Bless all of you.
CY