Posted By: lostlove ugh! - 10/05/06 03:01 AM
current thread in SSM contains recap of sit as well as some recent posts... getting what I wanted but not liking it

For those who don't wish to read the ssm thread this has been a long road. I came to this site back in 2001 when I discovered my h's ea went through seperation and h wanting a d. Came to the piecing forum back when there were only 5 regular posters.
It's been over 4 years since h's return home, OW apparently no longer part of the equation. Things have never been smooth sailing. Sure there was that blissfully exciting honeymoon period where I thought things were really going to change but as time has gone by it seems things have only gotten worse.

h is now drinking more and doesn't deny it claims it's "not a problem"

h has been purchasing pay per view porn (some costing $10.99) while I'm at PTO meetings or running out to the 24 hour mart store to pick up household items. when I try to talk with h about it again "it's not a problem"

h has always acted un interested in having a physical relationship with me in this year we went over 6 months with no physical contact other than the obligatory peck hello and goodbye. I used to try to address the issue with him but gave up. Now that h is drinking more and watching porn it seems he's suddenly interested but I'm not. It's not that I'm not interested it's that it doesn't feel at all intimate. There just doesn't seem to be any closeness involved...no warming up just a blatant "what are we going to do about this" as he stands in front of me with his member ready. I'm not a prude and not against having some fun with my h but when that's all there is and it wasn't that way before....

I don't know what to think anymore.

when I try to address the drinking with h he claims "it's not a problem" and goes further to justify his drinking by claiming "haven't I been more social lately" as if he needs to have a few beers and a nip (yes he's gotten into the hard stuff) to spend a few minutes talking to me.

when I try to address the porn again I am met with "it isn't a problem" and when I try to explain to him that though he's been more interested in sex lately it feels empty, I'm met with "whatever I do"

I'm really starting to feel like I'm living a lie. I wasn't happy with the r to begin with and now have these extra factors to deal with (yes I know they are his problems but they do change the dynamic of the r). In a sense he is giving me more of what I wanted but not in the manner I want. If you have to drink to spend time with me then you shouldn't spend time with me. If you have to watch porn to be interested in me physically then you shouldn't be physical with me.

I feel like I'm holding on for my children and my home...but am starting to feel like I'm not doing any one any good. Eventually my children will grow and see things for what they are...I'm afraid I will loose the respect of my children when it's apparent I've never had the respect of my h.

I try to post to others as I know that's the best way to get others to post to you but I'll admit I come here and look around and find myself overwealmed. I don't know where to begin and then don't know what to say. I used to be very good at posting to others but then it seemed the more I posted to others the more I thought about what I would say to myself if I were reading me and it frightened me because I would tell myself to prepare to leave.

I did go to a c for a while but realized it was a fruitless endevour to do so.

I've got myself a life...I'm co-chair of the PTO, started a monthly book discussion group, a girls night out club, a small catalog business, a montly dinner club with couples (h attends as well) have a network of friends both local and out of town that I talk to and get together with regularly. There's really not much more I can squeeze into my life.

There was very little I asked h for when he decided he wanted to come home and most if not all of it was denied...
1. counseling (went 3 times together then gave up h didn't want to address anything and got angry when I did)
2. date night, could be going out or a night at home after putting kids to bed to play cards, talk etc. (h claimed he couldn't commit to such a thing)
3. ow no longer a customer (this one eventually happend but of her doing not his. she continued on as a client for almost a year)

there were several other points but they all seem irrelevant now.

I obviously could ramble on forever but I'll let anyone who's chosen to read this far digest for now.

I'm open to any comments you may have even if it's that you don't know what to say.

Posted By: psluke Re: ugh! - 10/05/06 11:37 AM
Hi LL,

I don't know what to say but I wanted to stop by and give you a hug.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ LL }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Posted By: Livnlearn Re: ugh! - 10/05/06 01:49 PM

I was thinking about you and wondering how things were just the other day... didn't know if you were still posting somewhere in the further regions of this board!

Your H's drinking and porn watching may be "not a problem" for him, but they clearly are for you!

I felt for many years that I was married to a stone wall. Sure, we had good times, but in certain areas, there was absolutely NO communication. While I used to believe that it was something to do with not being able to communicate, I now believe that it often suits the "stone wall" to keep stum.

I used to think that abusive men meant those who hit you, and I for one would have been out of a marriage where that started to happen. But after reading Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?" I got a little wiser. Abuse can come in all shapes and forms, including covert and passive agressive. Do read this book if you haven't already.

If this man truly seems content to have a non-relationship with you, I would seriously wonder if he doesn't have another life somewhere else, unbeknownst to you.

Sorry I can't offer much "happy" stuff, it is just what comes to mind from my view here. You may want to seriously decide what YOU can tolerate if H sees no problem.


Posted By: cat03 Re: ugh! - 10/05/06 02:32 PM
First of all I want to commend you for making a life for yourself outside the selfishness of your H. I think that it should be a joint effort to work on the M,(he should be pulling his own weight) but maybe ask him what he'd like to do, what are his intersts, it seems his idleness is taking him down the road of booze/porn. What does he do for a living, or what was something he always wanted to do? I love the suggestions you had, but maybe he would be more intersted on something else.

Addictions are hard to break if the person doesn't accept he has them, he doens't see a prob thus he doesn't think there is anthing to fix.
It might be beating a dead horse, but have u thought about trying for a C that focus on solutions rather than digging in the past? My C is that way, of course we had the obligatory individual session so he could be familiar w/ our background, but afterwards we only talked about solutions and how we could both work together. It took a third time to find this C but he is just excellent, my H who never opened up to the first 2 was able to feel confortable enough to say his peace w/our current C.

I pray your H sees that the additions are tearing your M appart and decides to break them, and for you to remain strong)))))))))))))))
Posted By: inmyplace Re: ugh! - 10/06/06 09:23 PM
Hi LL. Sheesh. All I can do is shake my head. If I was your husband, I would want you to be the star of my movie and I would do it with a clear head (hey...did I just make a funny).

It is just amazing after all this time, things slowly creep farther and farther away. But it is good to hear that you are keeping busy. As for squeezing something in, may I suggest you squeeze your foot up his derriere.

Stay true to yourself. Things will get better one way or another. I can't say I know what will happen there, but if there is anyone I know who can handle whatever is in store, it is you.

Hang in there.

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 10/08/06 12:12 PM

I think it is unfortunately pretty easy to see that the M you are in is not good for anyone right now. It isn't good for you, it doesn't seem to be good for H, and as a result it really can't be good for the kids.

It seems you are still operating from fear -- fear that you will leave is making you avoid dealing with the sitch. And, I know you know that operating from fear isn't good for anyone.

I still encourage you to go to a lawyer and figure out your legal position. Knowledge is power. If you know you will be OK if you D, then you might just find the strength and courage to really set down the hard boundaries in your R that need to be set if there is to be any chance of saving the M.

I know you don't want to go to a lawyer because you are afraid you will then immediately leave the M. Again, operating from fear is not healthy.

Learn your options, make informed choices, and get ready to change your life one way or another. To motivate yourself, think about talking to your children 20 years from now about the choices you made in their childhood. Trying to save your M for a long time makes sense. Continuing after a certain point, when you can continue only by avoiding the truth about your sitch, your feelings, your options; when you can continue only in a way that is doing damage to yourself and does not seem good for your H; when you are modelling a sad way of life for your children DOES NOT make sense.

So, quit avoiding, confront the truth. See how it empowers you. See how your knowledge may free you to actually save your M or free you to leave it.

Posted By: inmyplace Re: ugh! - 10/08/06 05:45 PM

Excellent post though I will stop short of saying that fear is causing inaction on LL's part. I have met LL and my impression of her is that she is a strong, vibrant, intelligent woman. But this situation is causing uncertainty and I could agree perhaps she is overthinking her options. But this is not an easy situation to live with.

Now on to the real reason for my post. When you mentioned that you are modeling a sad way of life for your children, I couldn't agree more. Children do tend towrds the behaviors of their parents. But that isn't really what that sparked. Sometimes, people think they are doing their children a favor by staying together. What I have found though is that younger children handle the change more easily than older children. I have no science to back it up, but that is the impression.

LL, you have been in limbo for a long time and nothing is improving. And from what you say, it is getting worse. At some point, you do have to make some choices. Oldtimer is saying, you really just can't let this continue. You need to make a decision and follow it through. You're a terrific woman and if you are free from this crap, even that will improve.

Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/12/06 03:01 PM
cat and mouse...cat and mouse...why does it seem like my m is nothing more than a game of cat and mouse.

I give up...become distant bordering on living like he's not here and poof he starts making little attempts at getting my attention.

I never did like to hear people say "too little to late" but I'm really starting to understand the concept from a first hand vantage point.

It's just been so long that I think the cement has hardened too much to start removing bricks.

Am I saying that now because I unintentionally built a wall between us for my own protection am to blame? hells no!

I just feel like I've had enough but am becoming complaicant. Thing is I think h likes it that way. Trouble is he doesn't realize that it's a bad sign.

I know I'm not ready to make any moves so instead I just keep me happy and try not to wonder too much what the future will bring.

I do apprecite everyones replies...lots of things that made me go hmmmm to a point where I'm not exactly sure what to say. I could go point to point on things but that'd just be taking the red pill and though it may seem like I'm avoiding things and being what I don't want to be...hmmmm
well I guess the easiest way to explain it is this...last year I started going back to my c. After several visits I decided to stop going...realized it wasn't productive to sit with someone and realize my m wasn't working for me or looking like it was going to improve when I'm just not ready to do anything about it.

People can say that kids are resilliant especially when they are young. My parents didn't divorce until I was in my 20s and though it hurt I'm glad they made it through and I at least have childhood memories of family.

I don't know.

Posted By: runningoutoftime Re: ugh! - 10/13/06 12:09 AM
Just a couple of thoughts.... have you ever looked into Alanon? (AA for families of alcoholics). You might get some useful information to help you deal with the alcoholism and your marriage. I would think the alcoholism may be effecting your husband's libido and porn is helping him with this.... any chance of a medical problem? That might be something to discuss with a doctor.

I wish there was some magic for this. I'm glad you're doing things for you and working on your life... and also trying to consider what's best for your children.
Posted By: inmyplace Re: ugh! - 10/21/06 04:12 PM

You ask:

cat and mouse...cat and mouse...why does it seem like my m is nothing more than a game of cat and mouse.

The answer is very simple. It is because you allow it.

Posted By: RJJ Re: ugh! - 11/03/06 01:50 AM
Hi LL,

If you haven't already read it, I strongly suggest the book "Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man" by Scott Wetzler. When I was tearing my hair out trying to understand the "games" my ex played with me, I found this book very insightful and a great comfort. At least I knew that it wasn't all in my head. It pains me to see you so tormented after this long, but I think this book will shed some light on why.

Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 12/31/06 05:44 AM
why is it that after six years of this nightmare it's still not over?

Is piecing really supposed to be like this?
Am I even piecing? Why do I feel like I'm simply exsisting here?

Why is it the holiday season a time when couples are supposed to re-connect, cuddle by the fire, spend quality time together am I left alone?

Why did my h choose to spend the weekend before Christmas away with my mothers bf instead of at home helping me with the kids gifts or the house or anything?

Why is it New Years weekend and my h has chosen to leave the state to watch football?

Why am I happy that tonight when I go to bed I will have the whole bed to myself for the whole night?

Why is it that h came home?

Why is it that h wants me to accept that this is just the way marriage is?

Am I ever going to reach a point where I know what to do about this relationship?

Here's an actual quote "marriage isn't about having each individuals needs met". Now I know that alone is a statement that can be read many ways...one way is very true but another is awful. Is marriage meant to be of one person going without feeling like they are loved acceptable?

UGH as usual,

Posted By: lostlove is h testing me? - 12/31/06 08:00 PM

I don't understand why h would choose to go out of state for New Year's weekend just to watch a football game knowing full well how I feel about it unless he is trying to tell me that he just doesn't give a rats a$$ how I feel.

Is there any justification for leaving your w and two children at home alone on New Years Eve by choice unless you really don't want to be with them?

Posted By: Concerned_Listener Re: ugh! - 12/31/06 08:38 PM
It doesn't sound like your M is Piecing to me. He sounds like he has more of a relationship to alcohol and sex addiction than the M. It sounds like you're doing some constructive things with your life. It sounds like you're really frustrated with your situation (naturally).

Are you able to identify any positives in the marriage? What are you hoping for at this point?

Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 12/31/06 08:53 PM
Hi concerned listener,

Sorry to say the only positives in the m aren't really positives they are just normal things like I don't get beaten, I don't get called names, the bills are payed, the trash gets taken to the dump, the lawn gets taken care of.

What I'm hoping for at this time is for h to either sh!t or get off the pot. I don't want the resposibility of making it be over when it seems pretty clear that he doesn't want to try. He seems quite content to just have our m coast along each of us living our own lives as long as the finances stay in order and the house is kept together and the kids are cared for that's all that's important.


Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/09/07 04:00 PM
Nothings changed...

though after new years h and I did have a discussion...took two different nights to get him to admit that he wasn't happy with the m...the only way he would admit it was when the question was posed "would you want either of our children to grow up and have a marraige like ours" his answer was a definite NO.

so if h is not satisfied with the m then why not do something about it? why just take the "well we got married and had kids and that's the way it is" approach?

Sure, I'd rather not have my kids grow up in a divorced family but what am I supposed to do.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/09/07 04:03 PM
Oh should add that after discussing the porn thing with h several times and him either denying it, claiming it not to be a problem and my finally blocking the ability to pay per view without calling the company and giving a password (that I off course didn't tell him) it has finally stopped as has the over indulgence in nips of JB.

Now sure the removal of those two negatives warrants celebration but sadly not much else has changed.

I'm floating away and h seems content with that.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/09/07 04:24 PM

Please quit waiting for H to save you and the M. It isn't going to happen by maintainting the status quo. It is unlikely to happen in any case.

However, if you quit waiting and insist on finding a happy life for yourself, you will succeed, whether or not H winds up coming along for the ride.

What are your options? Have you seen a L so you can make informed choices? Keeping your head in the sand for another year or two isn't going to change things. What changes do you need to make NOW to get a decent life together for yourself?

Controlling H's sexual outlet in the basement is just going to cause him to find another one elsewhere. As much as you would like to think that H is asexual, he is NOT. He dirties his undies out of the house, he watches porn on television, on the computer. His sex life is alive and kicking, you just aren't in it. Does this mean I think you should have let him continue his private parties in the basement? No. If you didn't want to tolerate that in your own home, you shouldn't have to. But, what exactly couldn't you tolerate? The use of porn? Or the fact that he was enjoying his sex life solo? Even when you DO have sex now, you have admitted that you don't feel a part of it.

Take ownership for your life and choices. Get your *ss in gear and get a happy life so that you and your children have a decent next decade. Don't worry about winding up alone. You are already worse than alone. You KNOW you can have a great future. Why are you afraid of upsetting the applecart when the apples in it aren't even good for pie?
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/09/07 04:31 PM

To comment on a couple of your questions from December:

"why is it that after six years of this nightmare it's still not over?" Because you choose to accept your M. You choose to continue to play your part in the nightmare.

"Is piecing really supposed to be like this?" Easy one -- No.

"Am I even piecing?" No. There is no collaboration in your M to find a healthy, vibrant, loving R with someone you are committed to spending the rest of your life with.

" Why do I feel like I'm simply exsisting here?" My guess -- because you do not love your husband, you do not think he is a man you could ever love or respect, and you are afraid to admit that. Numb acceptance of the status quo is the most you can manage without facing the truth and making choices appropriate to it.

It is time for you to do something VERY different. GET A LIFE. No, this doesn't mean more dinners out with friends and extra volunteering. It means you need to GET A LIFE THAT YOU WANT TO LEAD. GET A LIFE that is good to you and good for you.


Find a C and figure out what you really want. Then make it happen.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/22/07 02:56 PM

Your right I don't love this man. Trouble is I find myself wondering...do I not love him because I never did or do I not love him as a result of years of a crappy relationship. Are my feelings now any different than his were or like all the other W.A.S's of people here? Are my feelings just and true or am I rewritting history and viewing everyting through muddy glasses? Am I feeling this way simply because I haven't let go of what he did or am reverting to what he did because he hasn't worked toward making the m better he's simply come home.

I know I can't fix this m alone...I tried doing that for years before any of this happend. I even continued to try after the bomb, s and ow but now I just don't feel like trying anymore. It has been almost 5 years since h's supposed return to the m. When he first returned home there were just 5 things that I asked for...1. drop ow as a customer 2. go to c together 3. date night once a week (didn't even have to leave the house just had to spend qt together not just sitting in front of a tv 4. renew our vows 5. h to start moving his business closer to home

here's how that's all worked out

1. Ow is no longer a customer but that took almost a year and it was her doing not his...her d went through and she no longer had the money to pay my h.

2. we only went to c together twice and that was after I had finally called a lawyer myself and told him I'd had enough..so he agreed to go but it was a waist of time just a little satiating on his part to keep me from going to a lawyer and filing myself.

3. date night? h either can't or wont and has no legitimate excuse for it.

4. regarding renewing our vows...h's thought was that I just wanted the drama of it all (I never said I wanted a second wedding heck I would have been content to just ask the priest at church to re-bless our rings and our m)

5. H's business is still not near home.

H has his life and I have mine. It's not horrible but it certainly isn't a loving, supportive, healthy relationship. If we didn't have children I'd have packed my bags and taken off years ago...infact I doubt I would have let him come back home.

I'm stuck not making a move because I don't want to be wrong...what if this m can be saved? I feel like I've tried everything and I'm holding onto nothing. Am I suffering from waw syndrome but just haven't walked? If yes then I shouldn't leave or believe the m is over because it's all just my view of things.
ugh! all I know is that I'm not happy in this m and it's starting to show and spill over into the rest of my life. I feel like I'm constantly hiding my dissatisfaction. I've been trying to just be happy with my own life and enjoy all that I can despite the state of my m but I'm finding it harder and harder to do.


Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/24/07 05:01 PM

It sounds like you could use some IC to figure out what you want. You seem very afraid of being wrong -- wrong about trying to reconcile in the first place, wrong about taking real steps now to change your sitch, wrong about doing nothing to change your sitch.

I think I can help. No matter WHAT you do, it will be "wrong" in some ways and "right" in other ways. So, you will be wrong about some things. So what. Everyone is. Accept it. You will also be right about some things. But, you can never be perfect. All lives have regrets. Not living life because of fear of regret is itself a big regret.

I'm not sure why you are so worried about being a WAS. They are not evil people, after all. Indeed, most people here want someone who is a WAS as their spouse.

A WAS leaves because (1) the M has become intolerable, (2) the WAS feels she has done all she can, and (3) the WAS finally decides to take steps to find a happy life.

The three things a WAS might do better that would help everyone involved would be to:

(1) Before dropping the bomb, give fair warning -- very explicitly and directly tell the spouse that the M is in very deep trouble and that the status quo will result in the WAS leaving.

(2) Keep an open mind after leaving rather than adopting the view that whatever happens, it will be too little too late.

(3) GAL without getting into a rebound R for the first six months after leaving.

Now, it seems to me that a WAS who follows 1-3 IS leaving a great deal of space for an M to be saved.

What if your M needs that kind of huge wake up call to be saved? What if your M can't be saved? What if your M will only be saved by suffering another year of emptiness silently? What if aliens come and take over H making him an altogether better H? What if H drops the bomb again and leaves without warning? What if....

blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah

Unless you can get a good deal on a crystal ball, quit trying to base your current actions on how things will turn out to be in the future and other things you can't know. You can't. It is a pointless, mindnumbing, life squelching exercise.

Go see a L and figure out what your options are. For F's sake, take SOME action.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/24/07 05:35 PM
ya know oldtimer,

You're right. I'm afraid, I'm confused and I've got a serious case of the what if's. I've been avoiding facing reality. Trouble is I wont be able to stick to step 2 and will therefore be a big bad waw. I've gone through enough time with h to know that it's not about too little too late it's about this wont last, never has, it's just enough to satiate and make me change my mind. So, when I go I'll be gone. Why do I feel like I should be absolutely certain but also know that I'll never be absolutely certain about what I should do. I just know that I cannot do it this way anymore. I have found myself falling in and out of depressions since h's return. I'm thinking the anxiety I felt while he was gone would be better than the depressions I go through now.

still ugh! but almost ready to open my eyes,

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/24/07 05:44 PM

Seriously, why not try some IC again combined with seeing an L? Maybe some antidepressants are in order? I don't think that the problem in your M is your depression, but, it may be getting in the way of you making important and meaningful changes, whatever those changes may need to be to find a good life.

See what your options are, figure out what you want, get a plan, take some action.

Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/24/07 05:59 PM
I don't want to go back to the same c again. I've convinced him that the m isn't salvagable. I don't want to take medication I'd rather start excersizing again and doing the things I once enjoyed like cooking and cleaning (not that I don't do that now I just don't do it as well as I used to, I'm distracted)
I don't think my depressions are a problem in the m I think the m is a problem causing the depressions. On some level I KNOW that this m is not ever going to be anything more than a staus quo with occassional crumbs of promise that things could be better. But of course I feel like claiming the m is the cause of my depressions is just going to be misconstrued as mlc or blame or all the other negative conotations that get thrown at was.

While h was gone so many people complimented me on how strong I was...my house was spotless the kids were cared for, I didn't sit in bed or on the couch pouting. I recall going to a wedding toward the end and people actually asking me if I was on medication or something because while they looked at me and thought of the sit they were upset (almost teary) and I was happy and having a good time (this was a wedding for h's side to boot) Other people thought I was strong for taking him back that they wouldn't be able to do it. Now I just feel weak. I feel like a hampster just running around on the foolish wheel in it's cage getting no where with little more to look forward to than the occassional outing in the plastic ball that allows it to run around the house but still getting no where.

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/24/07 08:48 PM

WHO CARES what other people think? I KNOW you don't want to run your life based on what will look good to others.

I think you are most afraid of your own judgment against yourself. Maybe it is time to gain a little compassion for the WASs. They aren't evil. They aren't stupid. They simply are unwilling to live in an M that doesn't work for them. Some are right about whether it can ever work for them, some are wrong. And yes, maybe it means admitting that your H wasn't totally evil when he left.

Like I said, I don't think depression is the problem in your M either. But, like I said, it is probably clouding your judgment and keeping you stuck.

When I was whining and moping and wanted something from the store one snowy day when XH had the car, you told me to get off my a$$ and walk to the store. I did. It changed my day, it changed my outlook.

LL, get off your a$$ and get some exercise.

Get off your a$$ and go do something fun solely for you.

Get off your a$$ and get to a L.

Quit living your life in a certain way by blinding yourself to other options. You may or may not take the options you find, but you need them to live a free life.

Get off your a$$ and walk to the store.

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/25/07 01:12 PM
BTW, you can always see a new C...
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/25/07 06:20 PM

How are you today? WE know you are great, don't you go forgetting how wonderful you are :-)
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/25/07 08:18 PM
Hey Oldtimer,

I forgot how nice it was to have people who really understand thinking of me. Today I'm better but still not great. I'm questioning myself as I probably alwasy will but kept my spirits up. I started working for one of those in home direct sales companies about 7 months ago. I have a show to do tonight so that's always something to look forward to. I like to get dressed nice and meet new people...making money in the process is just a bonus.

last night as usual h came home from work...went and took a shower..joined me and the kids who had already started eating (don't give me the wait for him it doesn't work we never know what time he'll get in) finished put his plate in the sink...sat on the deck and fixed sons fishing rod and then retreated to the basement where he fell asleep until I put the kids to bed, did the dishes, folded another load of laundry, cleaned up the family room and then went down. He then sat up and went up to bed. Last night I had a hard time falling asleep with him next to me. I can honestly say that while he was gone I got used to having the bed to myself and now prefer it that way.

I've decided I'm going to buy myself a new pair of roller blades (in-line skates) and go when the weathers nice and the kids are in school. I'll have to find a bike rack for my car so that when the summer hits I can bring them with me. Time to start living the life I want instead of dwelling in the fact that I can't have the m I want while I'm married to h. I did do these things before but stopped because it just all seemed pointless...no matter how good my life was or how happy I was everywhere else with everything else my m just stayed crappy.

If I do go back to c it will have to be a new one. I do have a few names/numbers but again there will be the day that I'm ready and will call.

I hope you realize how much your posts are appreciated. A lot of people have given up on me or just left the board since it's been so long now. I'm confident that someday things will be better I've just got to figure out exactly what that will look like and start getting me and my kids there...if h follows along good if not well then I'll take care of that. Does that mean I'm going to spend another 5 years in a crappy m? NO, it means the clock is ticking...I've realized I can't live this way and I'm going to change what I can if the m doesn't change because of it then it will formally end since it will have already emotionally ended.

it sure would be nice if h were willing to have a real heart to heart with some solutions or ideas but that just doesn't seem to be in the card and I have to step up to the plate and take charge of my life.

am I insane or what!?

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/25/07 08:38 PM

I'm so glad you decided to get off your A$$ and walk to the store \:D Feels good, doesn't it?

You wrote: "I've just got to figure out exactly what that will look like and start getting me and my kids there...if h follows along good if not well then I'll take care of that."

This is the most hopeful, empowered, helpful thing I have heard you say in a very long time. And, by far the best for YOU, YOUR KIDS, and YOUR R, whether that R turns out to be H and W or merely co-parents.

You are moving now \:\) Progress is coming, one way or another.

"I have to step up to the plate and take charge of my life."

That, my dear, is what you have already started to do. I see it, I really do. \:D

And no, you aren't insane, you are merely strong enough to have an open heart even as you risk changes that may end your M for the sake of all involved. (And you said you couldn't do it, you already *are.*)

I'm so happy you have found your hope. Not too hard once you make it for yourself ;\)

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/26/07 03:02 PM
Hey LL,

Good Morning!

When was the last time you took a walk on the beach? It looks like a great day for it. And, if you take a sweater, a blanket, a book, and a snack, you could have your own private beach party. Then celebrate it by buying a hokie beach souvenir or t-shirt.

Go on, the laundry can wait... You could do the whole thing in a few hours. Well?? \:\)
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 04/26/07 07:38 PM
I probably should have but with the kids on school vacation and son having a sleepover birthday party here tomorrow night I figured it'd be best to get some stuff done for that. So, I did and then I got a slap in the face.

Don't know if I mentioned it or not but bil's w before christmas decided she wanted a d. She had been doing some book keeping for h. Figuring that she would no longer be working for h I offered to take over. At that point h's busy season hadn't started. Fast fwd to a couple of weeks ago where h and I are at a birthday party sitting at a table with bil, sil and sil's h. Sil says something about being at h's office so he could show her some things...as usual I knew nothing about the visit. I asked h oh you didn't tell me sil and the kids stopped by...his response was oh she asked if she could do some cleaning and stuff for me. I find out today through sil that "stuff" meant the book keeping. Nice of h to say "gee honey I know you offered but my sis could use the money and you've got enough to do so I hope you don't mind but I'm going to let her do it" I know that's probably a lot to ask for just like all the things that seem so simple to me. heck he could have said "oh btw sis is going to take over the book keeping for me" whatever...I only offerd as a means to bring me into his world a little...guess he really doesn't want me there.


now I'm off to bake a cake

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 04/26/07 08:24 PM

No PA stuff...

Tell HIM. "H, I feel like I just got a slap in the face. I feel disrespected, rejected, and excluded because you dismissed my offer of help without even letting me know. It is not OK with me and it is pushing me farther from this M."

Then, figure out when you can enjoy the beach, or a game of pool for that matter.
Posted By: Livnlearn Re: ugh! - 05/04/07 08:12 AM

I remember you too. Although I don't post much these days, I do check out the board for some old timers.

If you have been working away on this problem of yours for years now and you don't feel any reciprocal effort or interest at all on H's part, I would certainly consider your other options. I came to this board looking to save my marriage, but I have got to the point where I feel better on my own and look forward to my divorce being final next Monday. A marriage takes two to work on it, and I learned that they are reasons one party might be content to have things the way he wants them even if it means disrespect and pain for the other party. There is some benefit to them. If there is not enough benefit to you, beyond financial security, face saving etc, (we are all vulnerable in these areas) then I would recommend re-evaluating your options...
Posted By: BethM Re: ugh! - 05/07/07 05:10 PM
HI JEN.......

I was over on the SSM board and saw you there. I was so happy to see that your marriage is going so much better. You sure hung in there and worked hard enough!

How are your Babies? I bet getting really big and propbably more beautiful then I remember.

Just wanted you to know that I'm still around and I still think of you. The few times I have come over here, I aven't seen you so this is a pleasant surprise!

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 06/04/07 07:23 PM

How you be?
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 06/04/07 08:48 PM
How I be?

I be still stuck in a strange place of trying to figure out if I'm un-happy in this relationship because it is a poor relationship or if I'm un-happy in this relationship because it is just like every other crappy relationship out there and that's just the way it is.

I'm feeling like it was not a saving grace but a horrible misfortune that I came across db and this board when h left. Sure it helped me to get through some hard times but it also put me in a mind set that love is a choice, relationships are hard work, one can change the r yada yada yada.
When h left it was scary..I was 29 with two little babies...I was uncertain of what would happen to me suddenly a single mother. I also felt a sense of releif...I finally knew why I had felt that the m was nothing more than a facade...it was true...h never really did feel that way about me.
On some level when h came home I knew it wouldn't last but didn't think he'd just fall back into his old ways.

I'm still stuck and I know nothing is going to get me unstuck unless I unstick myself. Trouble is I'm not ready to make a decision that involves more than just my life without honest open dialoge from the other person who's life it involved (in other words I don't want to be a bomb dropper) trouble is the other person involved isn't interested in an open honest dialoge...they have decided we got married and that's just the way it is.

as usual UGH!

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 06/04/07 09:00 PM
I see. Well, I can help you with one thing. Pretty easy topic actually.

No, your R is not just like any other R out there. For instance, I have a great M of a kind that I didn't even conceive was possible with XH. Nor, would such an R have been possible with XH.

Don't NOT talk because you are afraid H won't respond. Talk. Say your peace. If H doesn't say anything back, that IS his response.

You are back to being afraid of being a WAS because you hold such disdain for them. First, WASs aren't evil. Second, you wouldn't be a WAS if you clearly and unmistakably express where you are to H and he chooses to not take the actions necessary for changing your M into one you want to stay in.

It is easy enough not to be a WAS. Having made a genuine effort in your M (which you have) and giving fair warning (which you can do) is all that is required.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 06/04/07 09:04 PM
Oops, forgot these: ((((((((((LL))))))))))
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 06/05/07 02:25 AM
When I have talked h's response has been

"well that sucks"
"that's just the way I am"
"we got married"

or he says nothing

or he accuses me of living in some fantasy world or that I don't now how good I have it or that my feelings about our r are due to my friends anything but owning up to his part in the demise of the r or even accepting the fact that the r is sitting in an empty grave with piles of dirt being thrown on it each day.

But isn't that still a waw. How many of the men on this board were told by their wives over and over again that they weren't happy? and yet act like they didn't know...why because as women we let our feelings be known...have them taken for "nagging" or "complaing" or "never being satisfied" or "not being able to wait long enough for h to do something" and when we finally feel like we've said all we can say...feel like you've heard us and wont do anything to change the r we give up and suddenly it's a surprise?

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 06/05/07 06:09 AM
OK, so, what is the (supposed to be) greatest fault of a WAW? That the WAW doesn't give the chance for the LBS to get it.

Give H the wake up call that he hears. Give him the chance to get it. That is all it takes not to be a WAW.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 06/24/07 03:27 AM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer

Give H the wake up call that he hears. Give him the chance to get it. That is all it takes not to be a WAW.

how many different ways can you say you are not happy with the m? how many different ways can you ask for what you want? In the end no matter what when a woman decides to end her marriage because she's not getting the love, companionship, physical attention, affection etc she needs and deserves but is getting the bills paid and the lawn cut and a man who doesn't complain about anything at all she's seen in a negative light.

It's not that I really care how others percieve me...heck there are plenty of people who think less of me for staying in this m and of course there are those who know nothing of my m issues and may think poorly of me for whatever reasons they have.

What matters is what I think and how I feel.

I don't want to be divorced...I don't want to date...I got married and had a family...I just want that family to be a good one. I've been willing to do the work to make it a good m but it seems in the end the only thing I can do is accept that it will never be a good m and just make the best of it. Sad that I just cannot get myself to accept this as my life.

H is never going to wake up until it's too late if in fact he ever does wake up. I don't think you can wake up something that isn't there.

H was right to have left...this r has been dead for a long long time...trouble is he's back and isn't going anywhere and I don't have the same luxury he does of just packing some things and going. Strange that he was able to make the decision that the m was over pack his stuff and leave but I cannot make that decision...he wont leave "if you don't like it YOU LEAVE" is what I hear...ya and where do I drag my kids off to? why should the kids lives be distrubted? why can't he leave? why does he think being here is doing anyone any good? "because we got married and had a family" just doesn't work unless your willing to actually make it a family and that includes having a more than platonic relationship with your wife...more than a "I'll be home at 8" there has to be some consistant effort put toward having an actual relationship that involves at least some level of intimacy but it's just not happening here.

as alwasy UGH!

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 06/24/07 03:37 AM
Tell him you can't afford to move, won't disrupt the children's lives, but can't stand your M so you are taking a lover.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/25/07 06:35 PM
A piece of me is gone.

You both claim you had no intentions of malice when you entered into what you did. But just as your disease has taken something from you what you participated in with my husband has taken something from me. You can walk around with your head high, holding banquets and raising money for studies on the disease you’ve acquired while I suffer in silence with the affliction put upon me by the actions of two foolishly selfish adults.

I will never believe my husband returned to me for me. I will never trust that you are not still in his thoughts and his heart. That time is still in mine and I was not one of the fools in love risking it all. You once said to me that we all married the wrong people…that you had a connection…my husband claimed the same things in different words. The two of you robbed me of a different life. Yes an ignorant life but a better life than this. I cannot go back to the pretender I once was. The happy little homemaker who’s floors were clean and who’s children were attended to with a style that was admired by other moms. Though the inadequacy with which things are handled by me now depresses me it is a truth. Oh no one can see it…to most I’m just an average housewife who has a few crumbs on the floor leftover from breakfast but I know. I could just go back but that would be a bigger more hurtful lie…then I’d just be lying to myself.

It has been more than 5 years now…coming up on the sixth anniversary of that fateful day when you were seen together finally by someone closer to me than to him. That was a day that could have changed my life for the better but I allowed myself to be weak. I allowed myself to fall into the trap of possibilities. I didn’t stay strong and true to myself. I allowed a man who didn’t love me to come home to pretend.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 10/25/07 07:44 PM

Don't worry about your past decisions. Worry about your present decisions. Why do you choose to share a bed with someone you think is pretending?
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 12:54 PM
Originally Posted By: oldtimer

Don't worry about your past decisions. Worry about your present decisions. Why do you choose to share a bed with someone you think is pretending?

Trying very hard to "fake it til you make it" but a great pretender I am not. I'm slowly dying. Still stuck in the whirlwhind of "is this really how it is?" , "is this ever going to get better", "Do I see everything through mud colored glasses or am I seeing things for what they are but only foolishly once in a while hanging on to what I see through rose colored glasses", "Is this really going to be the year that things are different", "Would my life really be any better without him", "UGH!"

I've been lost for years...not finding any answers and the ones I do find (like h admitting that he would not want either of our children to grow up and have a m like ours) baffle me. Well, they don't really baffle me...they help to make sense of what is. What they do is confuse me when it comes to the WHY part of things. WHY and HOW can h think that things are OK. I am not some star in a 50's style tv sitcom. I cannot continue to exhist being the wife and mother while he's THE MAN who earns the money and falls asleep on the couch watching sports. There is an emptiness a void. I have to wonder what would be worse...ow had said to me about her decision to D..."I'd rather be alone and lonely than with someone and lonely" strange that those same thoughts had been running through my mind for years. I however chose to keep trying. I don't want to be lonely...I don't want to live with this emptiness or feeling that something is missing forever. I want a companion and h just doesn't seem to want or need the same thing.

We've hit a wall. H and I both know that this isn't working. I've been willing to try to make it work but h seems content to accept the fact that we are married with children and live out the rest of his life this way. I don't know that I can do that.
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 03:11 PM

I'm not sure why you think H thinks things are OK. He is staying in the marriage, but that does not mean he thinks things are OK. After all, you are staying in the marriage, but you don't think things are OK.

H had an A. H has had is other extracurriculars whether you want to face that fact or not. H would not want his children to have an M like yours. I'd say that H is NOT OK with the M.

Simply because he does not want to work on the M the way that you would like him to (or work on it at all) does not mean he is OK.

Why is he there? Maybe for the kids. He may well be a WAH with his plan well-baked just biding his time. Seems like it to me.

When are YOU going to take responsibility for your own happiness, set some boundaries, and actually ENFORCE them. If you don't want someone who treats you like H as your life partner, then quit accepting it.

You being "lost for years" is really your choice. You are young, beautiful, sexy, smart, engaging, vibrant, blah blah blah. If you don't want to be alone, you will never be alone.

One thing I can promise you is that your life will be exactly the same a year from now unless you do something to change it. Either that, or H will change it for you by leaving again when he finds an A he wants to stick with.

How afraid are you of being alone versus being afraid of admitting that H and OW may have been right about some things?
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 07:53 PM
How afraid are you of being alone versus being afraid of admitting that H and OW may have been right about some things? [/quote]

I'm not afraid of being alone, I am already alone. I can admit that h and ow may have been right about some things...h is the one who denies it. How can I argue that? How can I tell him what he thinks, feels, wants or who he does or doesn't love. I can barely get him to admit he's not happy in this m and that I have to do under the guisse of "what would you want for your children".

In his eyes we got married and had children...now we have to be grown ups and suck it up. Well that plain sucks and in my opinion isn't very grown up.

If h were to have another A or rather get caught in another A that would be the end of this story. Trouble is I don't know that he will do it again and let's face it...it was going on for over a year before I found out and that was a fluke so how would I find out anything this time.

Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 08:19 PM
Well, if H isn't going to have another A and leave, then I guess that leaves your happiness in your own hands, right where it has been all along...

Take some kind of action or nothing will change.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 08:42 PM
Posted By: oldtimer Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 08:46 PM
((((((((LL))))))) x a million.
Posted By: lostlove Re: ugh! - 10/26/07 08:52 PM
Thanks oldtimer...someday I'll make up my mind what's best. Would be nice if h and I could actually honestly discuss things. That'll happen when monkey's fly out of my butt!

Posted By: MaMaMo Re: ugh! - 10/27/07 04:22 AM
Lost I've been reading your post for yrs and it just so heartbeaking for me to see you stuck in the same place, as years past you by, I ask this of you what do you think you are teaching your kids, by staying in a passive marraige? I've seem what doing nothing and saying nothing can teach young kids to accept the status quo that is handed to them.

I'm so afraid to move from my spot, why because I was conditioned as a young child that I didn't matter, my opinion, that I could give anything of myself with out being picked on.

Would you like to know who I picked as a partner in life? Some one who I really not give myself fully too, or talk to because of how I grew up. We all pick a familar path. It's almost like we choose a path back to our bad places in childhood.

This past week on Dr.Phil he had on Mitch Albom who wrote Tuesday With Morrie, the next day I went out and brought the book, for me it's because life is way to short, I know that saying is old, but it's is so true, I said to myself when my mom passed that I would not take life for granted and not sweat the big stuff, but I think that we all forget that this life is all that we have and not to waste.
Posted By: inmyplace Re: ugh! - 11/05/07 06:59 PM
That'll happen when monkey's fly out of my butt!
Please let me know when you feel this coming on, because I want to see it...and I will priobably take a second peek at your butt once it is gone!

Hi, LL, long time. The more things change, the more they stay the same. You're a trooper.

Run into any black sheep lately?

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