Piecing for sure - DivorceBusting.com

This is interesting.

Remember the makeup. Well she's all of a sudden more interested in girly things. I took her shopping for clothes last week and she bought stuff that is way out of the norm for her. She's always said she wore all black because she never knew how to color coordinate. She's been wearing colors she would have never worn in the past and looks great.

So today she wants this hat she found. Again, totally out of the norm for her. She says " I don't know what's up with me, must be going through some MLC or something." She's finding it strange herself.

Tommorrow I'm going to go try to figure which hat it was and get it for her.

I think I'll actually get her something girlie for her birthday.

Xue

absolutely you need to find something girlie
what about a day at one of those places that do manicures and massages and facemasks?!!

or getting glamour photo's done they are great fun
you could do them together and have one framed

I am sure there are lots of 'girlie' type things you could think of

She may not understand it but people change - we change all the time and don't usually realise it

the other thing is quite a few times lately 'strange' females have been nice towards you - smiling and stuff
she notices
it just may be that you have that fine line between nice boy bad boy happening
combined with you 'trying to do things on your own' every now and again must make you interesting and she wants to be around you

what ever it is you are doing you are doing good and I think it is brilliant

bj

Hi BJ,

Yes finding something girlie should be easy. As a matter of fact it makes things much easier. It's been tough finding her something appropriate in the past.

Yes there have been a lot of women taking notice lately. I hear it as I leave the lobby sometimes. Little "wow, he looks great" comments to my wife. They are always just as I am getting out of earshot, like I can't hear it. It's kinda cool because every time my wife has to say something like "yes he sure does doesn't he, he's been working out a lot."

Twice yesterday women were screaming at me from their cars. When I was washing the truck a car loads of them stopped in front screaming cat calls. They drove away and then backed up and did it again. They were shouting "Hey I like your hose". Pretty funny. I hope my wife heard it. She probably did.

In the beginning it was the beard. So many women commented about the beard. But my body has changed a lot too. My wife doesn't like the beard. It's getting hot and I think it's about time to shave it off. I somehow doubt that the catcalls will stop when I do. At least I hope not. I did have a lot of comments that it gave me a bad boy look. I know for a fact that my wife doesn't like it though. Very strange, so many women find it very attractive but not my wife. She hates it, but she won't say so out right.

Another thing I've noticed is she has stopped saying "you can do whatever you want". this was something she picked up from her C and she started saying it all the time. It made me furious, but I didn't show it. It was the most ridiculous comment to me.

I guess you are right. I am doing very well. I look at all these threads where when the reconciliation starts, the sex starts. But not mine. But I wonder if it isn't better that way. Things go a little longer, get a little more fixed. Not that I want to wait any longer. I'm going crazy. And all these women hitting on me isn't making it easier. But what's making it really hard is being so close to my wife and not being able to touch her. When we were distant that was easier. Now that we are very close it is ssoooooooo hard.

I was shocked at your prediction back in Jan that I would get her in the sack in the first half of this year. I was like "what? six months, your crazy!!!". But here we are upon it and I think you may have been right.

A soon to be beardless xue

How about getting a spa day for the two of you for her birthday, and then a romantic dinner. I think having massages together is very relaxing, and can lead to more sensual activities - worth a try, anyway.

BTW, I love a beard on a man, but my H hates it. Sometimes, he will grow one just to please me though.

Hang in there Xue, think positive progression.

mmm no beard huh
or what about one of those funny half ones for awhile and then no beard

must be the muscles
rippling and glistening in the sunshine as you are washing the truck

good luck for this birthday - hope YOU get your wish

BJ, I thought about one of those funny beard things but I wanted to make it clear that I shaved it off for myself and noone else. I used the reasoning that it was getting hot and uncomfortable when I was working out. We've had our first few hot days here. For me is very important.

Yeah I was wearing a tank top that day. My wife hates them so I don't wear them. But lately things have been more for me, so there. I have pretty huge shoulders.

Today started off a little rough. She hadn't slept well because of her allergies and she was moody because of her birthday. I teased her a little but was overall sympathetic. I did recognize that I still am affected by her moods.

We went to our appointment with our holistic health practitioner who talked to us a lot about the stress in our life and how it's obvious in our bodies.

When we got back the flowers I had ordered had been delivered. She immediatly softened up. I was worried about the roses affecting her allergies and told her so. She said it didn't matter because it was the thought anyway. She left them out in the lobby for all to see. Of course there were many comments. People said, well it's her birthday, anniversary or he just made her mad and is making up. She replied that it was ridiculous to even think that I could ever make her mad, I was the perfect husband. Made a point of telling them so.

So here's where I got really lucky. The girl that works for me went in and cleaned the kitchen. I had asked her to do it once before and she took it upon herself to do it today. W mentioned how nice it was that I had her clean the kitchen for her birthday. I said, "oh honey your so overworked I just hired her to clean the kitchen every day for the whole year. You've got so much more important things to do".

I was so stressed on what to get her that meant something and it freakin fell in my lap. I'm definetely reapin some good karma today.

So later she's joking around with someone else. The joke of the day had been her grey hair. She says "D would never notice my grey hair. She loves me unconditionally" And then looks at me as if she's waiting for a response. Of course you know my response. So I haven't told her ILY since I read DB 11/1/05 and she tricks me into saying it in front of others today. Clever girl.

Don't know what else to say.

Xue

Well today has been an intersting DB'ing day.

I am so glad that it turned out well for you
just when I needed to hear a bit of good news
that was awesome
I think doing things/wearing clothes you like for yourself is a good thing kind of like ascerting your alpha dog status

and what a great idea (falling into your lap like that) amazing - good kharma is certainly with you
now can you send a bit this way
I am about an hour south of Sydney just to help you with the directional stuff

won't be on here for a few days going to Canberra with friends and being silly (no one knows me so it don't matter)

good luck you are doing so awesome I am really impressed

bj

Hi BJ,

Yes things seem to be going exceptionally well. Still not at the goal yet but it seems to be all positive.

Allergies are wiping her out. She's had a rough time of it. So I'll have to wait until the allergy season is over before we see the kind of progress I want.

I hope everything is well with you. I'll go stop by your thread. I'm always thinking of you but I'll send more love your way.

Have fun out there being silly.

Xue

Hey I never realized you changed my thread title

BJ, you can always lift my spirits. Which brings me to a thought. I read something on the back of a Starbucks cup about a week ago that hit me hard. It was a quote from a book called "Rules of the red rubber ball" which I've got to get. Anyway it was about creative people like myself and how they need people in their life to sustain them. To always encourage them and push them. I realized very deeply that this is what I want my wife to be. I was maybe a bit mad for her not being that. But then I realized how self righteous I was being and that if I look around maybe she is very supporting. I just don't always see it.

So the weekend was great. I was running hard. Had a big entry in a parade and won the grand cup. That night I also cooked for a big benefit we hosted. It was good.

It was a good night for our R too. She called me honey twice that night. I was very happy. We touched more and I even had my arm around her while we sat and watched the band. She constantly sought me out. she constantly bragged on me. We had a great time. She even dragged me out on the dance floor for a while as exhausted as we were.

Sunday we just layed low. Totally exhausted. Sunday night I was maybe trying a little bit to get affectionate with her. But my advances were rejected. Probably not the best timing. We were exhausted but I was of course elated with the previous nights progress. I offered her a foot massage when she said her feet hurt but she said no.

Today she's a bit grumpy, didn't get enough sleep. We're in a very busy time right now with lots going on. So I should expect this.

Looks like I'm probably going to go to Mexico next week. We were trying to go together and I really want to go together. My Dad's down there and wants us to come down. But it's nearly impossible for us both to go. she told me the other day that she made arrangements for me to go. I'd sure like to ML to her before going.

She says her and D will run the business while I'm gone and I get the feeling she wants to prove she can.

Things are going really well but I still get very anxious.

Xue

Looks like I'm going to get a vacation. Going to Mexico to see my dad. Haven't really seen much of him in many years and it will be good to reconnect. I was hoping that this would be a vacation with my W but doesn't look like it. Just can't get the work schedule to work out for both of us to go. I'm looking at this as a real good thing though. A little time apart should help.

W and her mother scheduled it this morning for me. Her Mother is way on my side in this stuff so I like her input. I sure would like a little intimacy with her before I go though.

xue

Hey Xue only here for a few minutes
been really busy this past week and havn't been on here
but this morning I was thinking of you

remember what the intelligient D15 of mine said about her bf
he can't miss her if he sees her all the time

I too think this could be a good thing
and think she will miss you a lot

hope you have a good time - keep busy - do lots so you have lots of things to share when you get back

bj

Hey Bj,

Really glad to hear from you. Hope all is great with you.

Yes I certainly do remember that conversation. I remember it all the time. We're together all the time. It's a great thing that we get along so well and want to be together all the time but I know it's not healthy.

W said once that marriage was designed back in the day when men were gone for months at a time. Although I don't totally agree with that I certainly do see the point. I definetely need to make myself a little more scarce and it would be good for me too.

I realize the low level of anxiety I always have around her. It just my own vigilance and fear of rejection but it's there. It's been there for nearly two years. I also realize that it is very hard for me to be happy with that there. This getting away will be good for me in that respect. I discovered it when she was trapped in the snow for a few days. I didn't have to worry about things. So strangely, at the present time I am happier without her being around although I love being with her. I realize that this is mostly my own issue and something for me to work on but the break from it will do wonders for me I'm sure.

Things have been really good between us. There just seems to be no reason for her sleeping on the couch. But my T said once that this really is probably going to be just an issue of my patience. I understand that now. W just really needed and maybe still needs the time to find herself and get through this crisis.

I also realize how badly the bad people coming around affects her. They have been pulling their tricks lately and we really refrain from retaliating in any way. But it affects both of us not to. We so badly want to to something back (and can( but we don't. We just really know it is not the thing to do. It creates a lot of stress in our lives.

A number of people have noted that it's a real good thing that I'm taking some time off. My stress must show through.

Thanks for checking in. It's amazing that the only person I talk to about this is on the opposite side of the world. I tell noone here. That's a little hard but I know there is no benefit in telling anyone here. As a matter of fact I think if I had things wouldn't be this good.

Have a great week if I don't talk to you. I'm leaving Tuesday and won't be back til the following week.

Xue

Xue, As always, you are doing well. I ahven't been keeping up with your thread. Sorry. My life is in the whole opposite realm than yours. I am so glad I have Kempo in my life. It has been the one real constant through these hard times. I can go and practice and forget everything else. All that matters is the form or technique. I can live the art and nothing else matters for a time. I am testing for a new belt next month. My instructor has been pushing me harder and harder, he knows I need the discipline right now. He even has paired me up with a Second Degree Balck Belt a few times so I can go full force without worries of injuring the other person. Also, he knows it is good training for both the Black Belt and myself.

I am glad to hear you are still doing good.

TD

R ya back yet???

I'm back!!!

Wow what a trip. More experiences than I could have imagined including one terrible one, Montezuma's revenge, yuck. Sickest I've ever felt.

Got back late last night. W and I sat up and talked until 2am. Went to lunch and talked most of today also.

I'm in a better place. The anxieties I had are gone and I'm feeling good.

Ready for a new phase.

W now seems very committed. Having a great day together today. She still slept on the couch last night but it doesn't bother me. Somehow I know this is where I need to be to move forward.

I have goals but am not obsessing over them anymore. A completely new mentality has come on. I think before I would kinda do things to better the relationship and then test to see where we were. Always looking to do just enough to find out where the fixing point was. Now I'll just continually better the relationship and not worry about it. This is my new strategy in my R and in my business.

Don't know if this makes sense but it makes sense to me.

Wish me luck :-)

Hope everyone is well.

Xue

Hey I changed your thread title
your back and you have cognitively moved a huge step

it would appear that going away was a great thing to do

and you stayed up till the wee hours talking
who cares where she is sleeping at least its on YOUR couch

that is great news
moving forward with your mind will enhance your behaviours big time well done Xue

bj

Man you've come a long way...hope to see a *this is it for me...I'm outta here!* statement.......Another success story!

Hey BJ,

Thanks for the title change and for the acknowledgement. I've known for a long time I needed to get to this state but couldn't seem to make it. Yes, so true, at least it is my couch.

I'm trying to change my thinking entirely. I used to spend every single moment thinking about a solution to something. Business, marriage, etc. Now I'm trying not to. I used to value my time jogging because I could think more clearly and come up with solutions. However now I am trying to just enjoy the jog. Trying to develop both sides of me I guess. This is new for me and feels good.

Faraway, good to hear from you. I used to follow your thread a lot but haven't been around much. Hope all is well for you. Yes I to hope to be a success story soon. But I'll still come around here. This is such a great place.

Xue

BJ,

Your right, there are behaviour changes. I don't react or stress on things. There are subtle differences already that I can't even pinpoint, they just feel different.

Tonight she headed up the hill but it's no problem. She has a presentation tommorrow night and had to go up to get some nice clothes to wear. She was sure to let me know the reason for going up. Hopefully she'll bring down the rest of her stuff or at least a chunk of it. The reason I bring it up is strangely again I knew this morning that she was going to leave for there tonight. I just can't figure out how I always know. In the past I would say it was that her attitude was different or something and I could tell she needed space. But today her attitude was just fine. We had a pretty good day. Had a good time with each other. We kiss pretty regularly now, she stands closer to me when we talk. Lot's of good stuff in her body language. But there has to be something I am picking up on for me to know when she's going to head up there. Just can't figure out what. Hmmm maybe I'm just psychic.

Anyway, like I said, things are good. I've also noticed changes in her opinions on others with r problems. Before her attitude was if the R is bad get out. A mentality she got from her C. Now when we talk about someone else having an R problem her attitude is "well that's just part of R's get over it". This is good.

Xue

X

Things seem to be progressing quite nicely and steadily for you....the waves are creeping closer...and you sound as if you're in a very solid place...awesome

Hey Tj,

Creeping is definetely the right choice of words. But it's moving although it's so slow it's hard to detect.

Positives:
When I go to kiss her she consistently kisses back on the lips with her lips relaxed. This used to be an on again off again thing. She would turn her head half the time. Now if I reach for her she comes to me with a kiss.

We spend a great deal of quality time together.

Her opinion on M in general seems to have shifted towards the positive. She used to be very "women's lib" women don't need men kinda attitude. I was actually getting worried she would decide to switch her sexuality.

She touches me endearingly and occassionally calls me honey when we are at social events.

I call her honey most of the time now and she responds well to it.

Last night she was planning on staying up the hill because the event she was at was near there but she changed her mind and came back.

Aaaah that helped, I should write down positives more often.

Despite all this it is still frustrating as hell. I woke up last night and heard her trying to get comfortable on the couch. Invited her over and got turned down of course. I didn't react well, it made me mad. Didn't show it of course but the frustration gets to me occassionally. Perhaps even more now when everything else seems positive.

Today I realized I need to get on the 180 bandwagon again and the GAL. I'm going to help film a show at the local cable access channel tonight. That'll get me out. I'm thinking about starting to wear cologne and maybe getting a little bit vain in my personal hygene area. That would be a good 180 I think. Any suggestions on a good cologne since I never wear it.

Think I'll start lifting weights too. Been jogging consistently and I like that.

Xue

I would recommend black suede by avon. Always gets me when my H wears it!!

X

Forest:Trees - go back and read a thread from 6 months ago. Where were you then? Where are you now? Perspective helps gauge progress

Cologne - couple "hot" ones now are Marc Jacobs and Dolce and Gabana for Men. I got some Sean Paul which I like - but doesn't last long. Do you have a female friend/colleague (Not w!) who's opinion you're willing to take and is willing to be your coconspirator? If so, take her with you and try on a few different types.

BTW - it's a great test for "confidence" - easy place to get squeamish and wussy for some reason - no way! Stride in there like you own the damn place and turn up your nose on anything that doesn't meet *your* criteria - this is a gift for you and will reflect how you feel about yourself - strong, confident, masculine....act like you deserve to wear it....

6 months ago? Hell I was a slobbering fool. I don't want to read that drivel. Point well taken though :-)

Yeah your right, guess I'm gonna hafta go buy it at the most lavish sissiest counter I can find now. Thanks a lot TJ, I was just gonna order it online, now I gotta make the drive to town and act all manly :-) You just cost me a two hour drive.

Xue

Hey Xue

am dying to know what you got

personally I love Joop for men
and Safari for men by Ralph Lauren

actually I like Joop so much I bought it for myself and wear it when I go out

so next time she is moving around trying to get comfortable try the humour appoach
when she says no just laugh and roll over
and when she asks why just say well if you want to stay on there and be uncomfortable then I guess its not my problem after all I am super comfortable and warm here and then purr like a big cat
at the very least she should laugh and chuck a pillow at you (or a shoe)

I think you need to inject a little humour into the whole thing
possibly even respond with a thank god for that
I really don't want to share this big soft warm bed with you but was just being polite and then laugh and go back to sleep

it is good to come on here and see you doing well
focus on you and you will feel even better about you and she will feel great around you

now what smell did you get

bj

Yesterday she asked me to take a bunch of stuff to the laundrymat. Stuff was just to big for the home machine. I did. She was very appreciative. She went and visited her parents.

Last night she asked for a massage and I gave her a really nice one. She enjowyed it a lot. I wasn't at all cautious about where I put my hands. She didn't seem to mind. Got a really nice made for the bedroom type kiss when I was done.
Now I's call that a step forward. She had had a little too much wine.

This morning she let me know that it had been a great massage.

I need to think about this

you really ought to do something to tip over the status quo
can you not have differences of opinion without arguing
it would have been very interesting to find out her thought patterns on this issue

the world is full of couples/family members
individuals living with others yet remaining individuals at the same time

interesting

but more important here is how you can tip the scales on your whole sitch - as opposed to working out how and why she thinks something

bj

Yes Bj, Please do think on this. I certainly have been.

I didn't take the argument further because I already knew her thought patterns. She prizes the strong woman ideals but does not yet see how she can be the strong individual woman that she wants to be but also follow a strong man. What she does not realize is that she is already in this position. I have evolved, she has evolved. Maybe the answer is in this.

I wanted to touch on the argument but not go into it and elicit a argumentative response. I think I did that. She will think about it I hope. She keeps commenting on other people and how if they would just "insert whatever" they would have successful relationships. But does not see her own forest. Or maybe she does and just doesn't admit it yet. I don't know.

But somewhere in there is an acknowledgement. Maybe she just hasn't put all the pieces together in her own mind.

Yes, there must be a way to make it happen.

When I was going to my C she said that the last stage of this would be the challenge of convincing my wife that personal growth and individual strength happens within "the confines" of marriage. She predicted that the outcome would probably be dependent on my own patience. She said it was very possible that it would take up to a year. It would just be a matter of me staying on the path for the duration. But I do think we are at a point that something could act as a catalyst to get us where we need to be. I just need to find that catalyst.

xue

It may be playing out on its own, not sure.

I'm not even sure if the independent woman thing is important anymore. It may just be a leftover from past thinking that is ready to dissolve.

She's great at room design and knows a little about Feng Shui. Lately people have been requesting her help in designing their office space. So I suggested she learn a little more Feng Shui and either start doing it professionally or just as a hobby. She likes it. She blew me off and said "yeah right after I get my real estate license so I can make some money". She was using me, I mine, phrases a lot which I hadn't heard in a long time. So I said,"that's great" and walke out. A couple minutes later she was in apologize mode. Hanging out with me, watching what I'm working on, making jokes.

So my brother calls for advice. He's having problems and I've turned into the guru on relationships. Not surprisingly he's having some very similiar issues to what I had. I talk to him for a bit and give him some help but he's not ready for all of it. It truly is a journey you have to take on your own. His SO is misinterpreting things he says as digs. When he's offering advice she takes it as telling her she can't do it right. Man that sounds familiar. On one side she's got self esteem problems, on the other he's a pompous ass.

When I mentioned that she had self esteem problems my W mentioned that he was a pompous ass. I very humbly said "well yes he is, but so was I at one time"

So W and I talk about it and the parrallels are obvious. We're obviously talking about our own R too. So finally it comes out. She very sarcastically asks "So what'd he call for to ask your advice on how to win her back?" I instinctively knew this was at the botom of things so although I was shocked and backed into a corner with the question, I was prepared. My answer: "No, he obviously has his own personal issues. I told him that it is very possible that the relationship may not be saveable. However if he runs from it he will eventually find himself back in the same spot with someone else. The only solution to improve his own life is to go through it with her. Walk through the looking glass and see what's on the other side. Then if the relationship fails it fails, But if it fails the next relationship will be rid of all of the problems and will be a great relationship."

I changed the subject to something nice, poured a glass of wine and gave her a kiss. We had a nice evening after that.

On the wall of my office I keep a qoute I printed out from BJ. It starts out with

"I already know the outcome want to know what it is?"

That thinking has been so important. In the beginning she was adamant that I did not change for her. I just told her that I did not, it was for me. It's my ride and if she wants to come along then that's great. If not then someone else will and she'll be missing out.

I'm going to call that a step.

Xue

The next step is that she needs to make this HER decision. If she comes back fully because I've convinced her of it, it'll never be right. But if it is her decision then all is good.

But how to let that happen???

Xue

Xue

you seem to have lots of opportunities to have very indepth discussions without the arguements usually involved in differences of opinions
you also seem to be getting closer and closer to being able to ask outright
so what's going on here - what are you thinking?

I know that DB says not to do the R talk but I think you may have gone beyond that -

the situation with your brother may just have been one of those opportunities to say - well he probably asked because I'm his brother and he may also have asked because from the outside it may look like we have solved all our problems from last year????

this kind of leaves it like you think they are not all solved but outsiders think they are solved
and it may elicit some input from your W as to what she is thinking

she seems to be pretty happy with the way things are going
but they are not where you want them
so I guess how long do you keep things the same without makeing a change and seeing what happens

remember at the beginning
make a change and watch the results

what would happen if you went out and didn't say anything about where you were going and hence didnt give her the chance to come along
I don't know I guess I am thinking of creating a situation that required discussion

I really think you need to look out for opportunities to discuss where you both think you are at in all this

the alternative is to GAL big time on your own and act like two friends sharing a place together who just happen to get on well
what would she think if she thought you were not happy with things the way they were and she thought you had decided to get on with your own life and not hang about anymore

I don't have any insight into the being independent and being married mind set she has
except that it may be some kind of protection thing she has used for so long it is just a learned behaviour thing

I still don't think she is as self confident as she appears otherwise she wouldn't have the overwhelming need to be independent and smart and everything else

if people think I am some kind of dumb female I figure that is sad for them - I don't get defensive as I know I am not and don't need to prove it to anyone

she seems to like people ackowledging her independence strong female stance which seems to me to be a bit false

also when you have done things alone she has tagged along either at the last minute or made it clear she is coming too

I really do think you may have been in the lets communicate better about us stage

to be able to talk about what each sees for the future
to discuss hopes dreams goals etc
sounds like she doesn't know how to do it for fear of it becoming a war to be won
something that someone has to win or where someone is right and therefore someone wrong

I don't know but I do think you need to go back to basics and do something different
experiment a little and get the communication happening between you a bit better

bj

BJ,

yes this is very much what I've been thinking too. I'm going to have to think on how to do this. I guess it just scares the hell out of me to start an R talk since they have gone so badly in the past. I'm not even sure how to talk about it yet without it turning into a someone has to win thing.

I've also thought about the Gal like crazy approach.

Yes she does seem to be happy in the current sitch. She acts happy all the time. Happier than I've seen her in years and years.

Whenever I think of an R talk I just see myself giving ultimatums and that wouldn't be good.

I am tired today. Didn't sleep much cause I worked myself up and got upset over nothing at all. Haven't done that in awhile.

I'm going to think on this and yes I need to do something different. I've been all over the boards looking for ideas lately. Just not finding it.

I'll do something.

Thank you for checking in. I needed it today.

Xue

I just don't know if what she is thinking has yet caught up with what she is feeling.

She acts like everything is fine, everything seems good, but there are still subtle clues that she still is thinking this independence thing. Things such as thinking about going away for a couple days off by herself and not telling me unless I ask. This is very bothersome.

Some days I feel like I will be the WAS

Frustrating as hell.

Xue

Realizing now that the emotions of the last few days were just old stuff surfacing. I was reacting to stuff that was probably more imaginary than anything. I worked myself up and lost a nights sleep over it. I haven't done this in a long time. Don't feel slipped really, just old emotions bubbling up I think. Yesterday afternoon I felt the exhaustion of dumping a bunch of emotions. Felt good though. It's a strange thing.

Last night Miss negativity apperared again. Kind of expected since I was off dealing with people that made her angry. I deal with the situation in a positive manner and give people a chance. She lashes out. She does not forgive. I am over forgiving but have learned to deal with this. When I say anything positive about the person she is mad at she goes into a negativity rampage.

It got to me at first and I started thinking that she is just an incredibly negative person and not worth being with. Then I stepped back and realized that these tirades are few and far between lately. They are now the excepttion, they used to be the rule.

I've thought a lot about an R talk vs not. I've come to the conclusion that an R talk carries a great deal of risk and not much chance of success. I can hear the aggravation and defensive attitude in her voice when we barely touch on it. She is truly the most stubborn person I have ever met. She won't give up.

So I'm not going to fight the fight. I think that any perception of me working on things elicits the "smarter than her" defense. I think any R talks do the same.

In her separation letter there was a statement that said she was following her feelings. That I had convinced her so many times that her feelings were wrong and because I was smarter than her she listened and did what I said. But she felt bad about it. So I think that anything I do or say which seems like trying to fix things elicits this response.

So the answer is to GAL and to analyze myself and anything that I do that is pursuing or is percieved as pursuing I must completely stop. Occassionally she comes to me and I'll certainly "pursue" that. But I'll have to let that happen.

I'm far more detached now and far more able to do this. The goal for me is that everything I do, I do for me. If it is to manipulate it will be percieved as such.

So off I go.

Xue

Psychic link happening

just came here to post GAL big time
do for you and only you
actions speak louder than words
act like you are living for you
you are happy with who you are and that is good enough for you
follow or be left behind
I love you but won't wait for ever
I think you are strong and independent but so am I
and waiting for the next level is now becoming less important as I forge on with my life the way I want it to be
follow or be left behind
catch me if you can I am moving forward with or without you

you want to be independent well so do I
you want to be strong well so do I
and frankly waiting around for my wife to return while playing at being brother and sister is not my perfect life

trying not to make you angry or negative is not my perfect life
watching what I say or do is not my perfect life

and not getting angry with people
giving people another chance to make it right
dealing with negative situations positively rather than with negativity and brawn makes me an independent and strong person
I am not like others
I refuse to let the problems of others become mine
being negative takes too much energy
acting the opposite of what people think I should gives me more power and control over a situation

I do not need to respond like others I have more control over my emotions than that
I control me - my emotions do not

I can afford to be kind to other people, I can afford to use logic and commonsense in my dealings with angry people, there is always a solution to any problem and working together with people will help us to find the solution

getting angry and negative is the not the way
I am who I am and I accept people are who they are

these are the things that have been jumping around in my head the last day or two
these are the all the things that identify strong independent people

maybe you could say that her wanting to be a strong independent person got you thinking lately and you have been trying to come up with a concrete definition of what that is

and then go with the flow
put up a big piece of paper and brainstorm ideas
maybe if you can work towards a single definiton between you things can begin to move

I read something recently (in a psych book) may not get it word for word but here goes

there are two kinds of people in the world
those who look at life the see it the things are and live with how life is
those who look at life the way things are yet see how it could be think how they can make it that way

don't know if this helps - just typed down everything in my head as it came

bj

Pure BJ Brilliance!!!

I'll be back to post later.

Good karma coming at me the last few days.

The last week has seemed a little wierd. Maybe like something is changing and we are both not sure how to act with each other. I guess if I had to pinpoint it I think that I spend some good quality time with her in the morning and evening but the rest of the time I do my own thing. I just worry about it a lot less I guess. Before I would go give her a kiss a few times a day. Now I don't. I give her a kiss goodnight and that's about it. But when I go to leave for somewhere she ussually gives me one. I realize that this helps so even when my emotions tell me to go kiss her I don't.

A few people from the distant past have shown up this week. Both of them good friends we haven't seen in a lot of years because of what we went through. Both of them said they were so happy we did what we did and made it. That was nice since most people considered it crazy. And we wondered ourselves. But we paved roads that now others are following.

So last night we went to Walmart for tires. It was going to take two hours so we wandered around. Ran into a friend from over 10 years ago who said he had been thinking a lot about coming to see us. He had obviously been pretty mentally damaged from our parrallel pasts. Had gone through some pretty bad years it sounds like.

So we wandered around and in going down an Isle I saw some interesting chairs and pulled them out into the isle. We sat in the isle of walmart in these really cool chairs for about an hour chatting and watching people go by. Then decided we could probably find even more comfortable chairs in the outdoor section. So we went there and made ourselves at home. We had a fantastic time. Laughing and joking and talking to people that came by. A lot of fun doing nothing.

On the way home she told me how much fun she had and this morning she told me again. She was in a great mood this morning and we sat around crackin each other up.

At five in the morning she told me to look out the window. There was a bright light in the sky. She had been telling me she was seeing this incredibly bright light in the sky that didn't move. We had joked a lot about aliens.

So this morning when I got up I looked it up and turns out Venus is really bright in the morning sky this month at that time.

So I told her that it was Venus. I said "Venus is rising, the goddess of love and beauty is strong now" (In my most seducttive voice) I got a positive response but can't remember what it was.

There have been a few "we" statements today. Future talk We.

So this morning she asked if I would go with her to her parents tommorrow for a family event. There was a hesitation in her voice as if she was nervous about asking. She then made excuses saying it wouldn't take long and such. I of course emphatically said I'd love to.

But this afternoon she left to go up the hill. Said she was feeling a little ADHD and wanted to go do some reading and get away from computers, phones and TV. I said "You can do whatever you want" which is something she would say to me with indifference but I said it with caring. She gave me a nice hug and a kiss as she told me. Gave me a couple kisses on the way out and took off.

So I'm thinking she's feeling a little confusion and needs to get away and think about it. But I think the confusion is her figuring out that she really loves my company and to be with me. Even though I didn't like her leaving for the day I think it is really good. It just feels like some big steps forward the last couple days.

Bj, your advice is so perfect. I printed it out and will work from it. It reminds me of my teacher. My teacher became a very gentle and wise old man. He had a glow in his eyes and the look of enlightenment. He had a saying which has taken on more meaning to me lately. It was simple and it's meaning has changed for me. He said "I'm a nice guy because I can be".

He was a dragon.

Xuesheng

xuesheng, I nearly never post to you, but we signed up here around the same time and I must say you've been an inspiration. Keep up the great work! All the best to you and W in the future.

Hey Lancer,

you saying I'm an inspiration is quite an inspiration.

Yes I used to read your thread and post in different threads a lot when we first signed up. I don't do much of that any more. Lately it's just been me journalling and BJ and a few others stopping by to help. Both of which help me immensely.

Thoughts this morning:

Yesterday an Uncle stopped by who I don't see often. He and my mom were discussing how much everyone walked on eggshells around my Grandmother (still do). This walking on eggshells around a volatile person has been multi generational in my family. At least going back to my great grandmother. There have been a lot of miserably led lives because of it. I do not intend to carry on that tradition. It was a surprise that my grandmother had been that way with my grandfather who was a very strong and successful man.

Funny thing though, if I break the tradition and then don't have kids almost seems a waste although obviously it isn't.

Interesting thing to realize.

Xue

BTW - Lancer, I love your sig.

I've been reading a lot on the MLC board and reading other MLC sites. It would appear very much that a large part of this is MLC. It all matches up to the MLC stuff along with the triggers that tend to start MLC on it's path.

That would certainly explain a lot including especially the duration and slow recovery.

Regardless of the explanation the solution is the same though.

GAL!!!

Xue

Hey Xue

I just noticed all the typing errors in my last post
talk about my fingers running away with me
(along with my head)

I am thinking she is extremely confused and may just be trying to work out how SHE can help change this situation you are both in

bj

and so have been thinking

differences of opinions are what makes us unique
and also interesting

so what you need to do is find a way to put the heat out
in these conversations
and sometimes it can be as simple as saying I really enjoy these conversations we have
I particularly enjoy listening to your opinion and though sometimes I don't agree with what you say or understand how you think - I think the most brilliant thing is that we are different people with different ideas and thoughts and that is one of the things I find really interesting in our conversations
it would be terrible if we were not so different that we thought alike about everything
however - the only thing I don't like is how we seem to end up making it into some kind of mini-arguement (or whatever word you would use) and it feels like one of us has to be right when infact neither of us has to be right or wrong

what do you think (you ask her)

I think she likes to have a different opinion - but maybe just needs to realise it is not win/lose
its just a difference of opinion

and I must say that though I am always right

a difference of opinion gets me thinking
about the way I think and sometimes(when the moon is blue) I have been known to change how I think

bj

Well I have been thinking about your last posts BJ. Thanks so much.

Some things have happened which I feel are significant. It's been good. Things which really make me think about your statement "maybe she is trying to figure out how to make it right"

Something has happened in the last few days which has eliminated our financial stress. We have been working hard and slowly getting our heads above water from the crisis of the last few years. But we got really lucky (good kharmic buil up) and money is rolling in hand over fist and looks like it will continue to do so for a few more days at least. It's enough to get us out of our financial stress completely and get out of the trap. Woohooo!!!

The financial stress over the last few years because of the hard decisions we made has been terrible and constant. No relief. This is the first time we have some breathing room.

So one of those little conversations came up the other day when we were celebrating our new success. She said "yeah you really married your mother didn't you" This was in refference to my wife's former negativity and bitchiness. It was the one thing that has been so obvious. I have generations of negative controlling bitchy women behind me. But I had no idea she had put it together. We both laughed our asses off. Nothing more was said we giggled so much. So this is good, there is humor in those convos.

It's so strange how our outside lives parrallells our marriage. We have a former employee/student who has been going through some rough times. He's like a son. But he is basically right now a walk away son. He's done a few things to show he cares. He showed up and painted our bathroom as a gift to my wife the other day and has bought her gifts. But he keeps himself distant.

He is thinking about going to get lessons from another instructor because he can't face me. This instructor is a bad person and would ruin his training and his spirit., but would give him instant gratification. Can you see the parrallels?

So my wife and I have figured out what it is that got him to this place butthat doesn't fix it.

So she has decided to take it on herself knowing that he would not listen to me. This morning she has outlined her conversation she plans with him.

It's a lengthy conversation about how we protected him and made all kinds of parenting mistakes but no more. If he wants to be an adult then he shall be one and noone will protect him from the consequences of his mistakes. The choices are now his, but if he walks he can never come back.

She talked about making decisions about where he wants to go in life and not always reacting and making those decisions on the emotions of the day. She said she knows he loves us but just doesn't like us right now. Said he needs some time and space to make those decisions but those decisions are final if he decides to leave us.

Now I'm kinda losing my train of thought but the point is that what she was saying is exactly parralel to us and very aware. Whether she is conscious or unconscious of this I don't know.

A few other good things. We are planning on going out with another couple maybe tonight. In the past our Sex life was fantastic when we did this.

She has asked me if I could cover for her at work so she can take a few days off to visit with a friend. The point is that she asked. She has been very she'll do what she wants and doesn't have to answer to anyone for over a year now. This has been a source of problems. She can do whatever she wants I just want her to give me some input on it rather than just taking off at the last minute.

Mornings when we get up I now say "wanna come have coffee with me" and it is always a resounding yes. Before I just kinda lured her there. Now it is what we do.

So she's kinda said it's time to stop waffling I guess

Hasn't told me which direction she is going but judging by the evidence at hand I'd say it's in my direction.

My wife is smarter and more aware of things than I have ever given her credit for. I do make sure to give her credit now.

Oh, she has talked a lot about not crossing the boundary of your own morals. How this is difficult but important in life and very defining. This has been a big point lately because of decisions we have had to make.

BTW- her ideals are, she is a conservative who values family values, hard work, and marriage.

Xuesheng

Xue
I think you are really on the right track here
and I think there are hidden messages for you in her messages to the student
it will be interesting to see how her talk affects his decision
and how interesting that she sees there is a differece between love and like and that you can not like someone for awhile but still love them

now I have to say
get your ar$e over to my thread
I need your help - I got a call a 40 minute call
and then got stressed and now am going out to drink with friends
need your insight

bj

I'll keep an eye on your thread bj. Keep us posted if you have time. But hopefully you won't have time.

I realized something yesterday.

I've always known how reactive I was to W's mood but now I realize she is even more reactive to mine.

I had to deal with a business associate who I swear is bipolar. He's all over the place emotionally and under a great deal of stress right now.

I've learned really well how to deal with the negative mood swings and to help a person out of them. Of course we all know where I have learned these skills.

However it still brings me down a bit and I come home and vent with my wife. If I didn't she'd know I was lying. she expects it when I deal with him.

I was really paying attention to her mood and I realize that it really swings dramatically from my venting. We talked a little bit about it and there isn't much of a way around it other than me Acknowledging and validating her feelings when this occurs. This I need to work on.

Of course I've known this for a long time but it really hit me yesterday.

I need to work on how to A & V and bring her out of it quickly when this occurs.

I also need to make sure I am up more since she is certain to react off of this also.

Thought?

Xue

I forgot to mention.

W has made a few sarcastic jealous sounding remarks lately. There's a woman that works at starbucks that flirts with me a little. I don't pay any attention. My W hates her. Evidently she asks my W about me. This is the second woman to do this. What's up with that. So when I head to Starbucks this morning my wife says " oh are you missing ..."

I don't know how to take that one.

She got pissy a couple of months ago at a woman at the bank who was inquiring about me too.

(sigh of exasperation)

So you ladies tell me what's up here.

xue (not getting any) sheng

well I guess you need to work out what will get you the response you want

personally I would either make a joke of it - or start drinking water

seriously there is not a lot you can do
is she saying it jokingly or seriously

you could always look a little sad and say 'why would you say that? now I might have to start drinking bottled water - unless of course you want to go get the coffee for me'

dunno I guess you have to work out how it 'feels' - the energy/atmosphere at the time

or go to another coffee shop??

and see what happens when you come back with coffee from somewhere else?

bj

I never could figure if she was joking. Which is rare and probably means she was being a bit sarcastic.

I'm going to chalk it up to a momentary self esteem issue on her end and leave it alone. I will certainly get coffee elsewhere though.

Bits of humor are beginning to creep in. This is good. She's been playing interceptor between my mom and I again. This used to be a big problem but seems to be just fine now. W seems pretty detached from my Mom's negativity and almost entertained by it some times. Probably because I am. Used to really get to me so W would always intercept and then it would get to her.

So she's talking to my mom and my mom's talking about my brother's sitch. In my brother's sitch his girlfriends (now ex girlfriend) mother is a part of the problem. So my mom says to W "Well they would have made it if it wasn't for her mother". My W almost falls out of her chair laughing. She controls herself until she gets off the phone and then tells me and we both crack up big time. W goes on about it making jokes, we're both laughing about it pretty hard.

I guess that is good. And an admission that my mom was a big part of the problem. Which W denied many months ago.

I've been doing well. Changing my daily routine up pretty good. I think it helps.

Xue

I feel some positive change comig on.

She was a bit nervous heading out to have the talk with the student. I was laying on the couch being indifferent (180 for me, previously I would have been up to give her a kiss goodbye) So she told me to get up and wish her luck (Hey this stuff works)

So I think the talk was good for her. Pretty damn emotional since she was spilling the beans on all the crap we've been through the last few years. The huge risks we took and how we paid dearly for them. Essentially she was seeing things from my side. The student is like the WAS. It's pretty much the same. We've kept what we went through pretty secret. It's like protecting your children.

She said she didn't cry but when she recounted the whole thing to me she was fighting off tears pretty hard. They were good though. It was a total release for her.

I could hear between the words. She was really saying how it had nearly broke us and nearly broke our marriage. We sat and talked for a long time and then decided to go to dinner.

This was really good. It feels like healing. It feels like she is healing.

I could go on and on about everything but I don't think I need to.

A much happier

Xue

It seems the more I back off and become unconcerned with the situation, the more she wants to hang out with me and the better it gets. Just feels that way.

Guess I'll keep it up :-)

Maybe if I pull away enough it will pull her right into our bed.

Xue

Xue, Impressive as always. You are always analyzing and adjusting.

Just wanted to stop in and tell you I was still alive and kicking. (crescent, axe, wheel, frontball, etc) I am still doing the one constant in my life and that is taking Kempo. It is my center. I just tested for a belt on Sat 17th. I am now a Green w/stripe. My D13 also tested for the same belt and took the adult test. I am so proud of her stepping up to that level. Next belt will be brown.

Glad things are going so positive for you.

TD

TD,

Big congrats to you. In the system I teach green is a pretty huge hurdle. I'm sure it is there also. I've thought about you but haven't checked in. I'll have to stop by.

Attack and adjust. I Try to live by it but it's hard.

This whole thing is difficult no matter how things are going. Very difficult.

I was just reading a post I have printed on my office wall from BJ and the last line is making much more sense. It talks about in the end it really won't matter to us if we win this battle or not because we gave it our all and fought the fight. Before that seemed like an untruth. Only for if it didn't work out. But now it seems true either way.

Ok I just have to relay this but probably shouldn't. Lately I've been feeling a bit spunky and being a bit sharp witted (sorry bj)
So tonight we're joking around and my wife says something about me getting screwed (she wasn't thinking sexually) and I say oh yeah that would be great. W starts in with her come backs and says "Oh no not tonight your in the dog house"

But I notice when she comes by that her nipples are hard as rocks. I've never seen this before from a comment.

Ok I shouldn't have said that but there it is.

Laughing inside

Xue

I would suppose she's just as horny as me huh. It'll be two years next month. Ouch.

There is hope

Xue

So this morning she's up first and a little cranky but trying to hide it. She says's "I just cant sleep here its to loud"
There's a truck that's been coming by early and it is quite loud. We used to live way out in the country where there was no noise.

So we have coffee but things are a little quiet and I'm not yet sure why.

Then she tells me to leave her office so she can call our business partner back. Evidently he has called that morning and talked to her. In her opinion she said something that is going to cause problems. Quick run down on him, he's got napolean complex badly. He's a little guy with self esteem issues and I always think about the scene in Shrek where they look up and say "Do you think he's compensating for something"

He's also very negative but seemed like a very positive person when we went into business. I suspect he is bipolar.

So he's always buying really expensive and unneccessary equipment and always doing the opposite of my suggestions seemingly to prove himself.

We did not realize any of this about him before going into business.

My W is pretty sensitive to this. She hates that he doesn't listen to me. She says his problem is that he's trying to be smarter than me.

So this morning he's telling her how he thinks he is going to do a certain thing. Through years of experience we know what he is proposing is wrong. She says something very slight which let's him know that. It doesn't go well.

So she's trying to call him back to fix it. He's not answering.

She finally comes out and vents to me and she is very self blaming. Remember that she attributes many of the bad events in our life to her temper. Although her temper may have been a catalyst it didn't cause those situations.

So she says

"and you need therapy because you married someone just like your mother and then went into business with someone just like her too."

I'm realizing right now that I must shut down somewhat in these events because my memory of it is not good. I know I used to shut down hard but I must still do it to some extent. I can never remember what exactly was said.

But I do remember saying "I love my wife very much exactly the way she is"

Her reaction to that was not good because she was still in her state of rage.

She's was saying on her way out that she was very sorry because she knows I hate dealing with him (business partner) when he's on a downer and I have to deal with him like this today because of her.

So obviously her self esteem issues are popping up.
She's blaming herself which is related to her self esteem issues.
She feels she has to protect me and his not listening to me feels like an attack to her.
She has always been very controlling. I'm wondering if that is coming into play and the fact that he won't do things our way is really affecting her because she wants to control. I realized it does affect me also.

We want him to succeed but he seems to be more concerned with his ego.

I see that she is playing out the drama triangle with him. I believe I am not.

OK BJ, I know your busy but I'd sure appreciate some help on this.

Xue

Let's just hope these are our old issues resurfacing because things are healing. The book says this happens.

Updating:

W has come back from errands and found me on the phone with business partner. Everything was fine with him, he was just calling to have one of those long talk about whatever conversations that just is his way of making sure everything is fine.

So when I tell her everything is fine and it's no big deal she asks if she should call and say something. I say no, it's no big deal just leave it alone and it will go away.

So now she's perfectly fine, perfectly happy, and wants to go play hookey and go to lounch with me.

Ah women

Well kinda but not too much.

So her and I just talked about the situation and it went well and afterwards she says. "Well I just wanted to call him and explain my reaction. That's why I'm going back into therapy"

I point at the diagram of the drama triangle hanging on my wall and she says "yep, round and round we go"

She did say "Now I've got to find a therapist"
That's good, if she were to go back to her old one I'd freak.

Maybe this is a good time to suggest a phone consult with one of the therapists here.

???

BJ, I really wished you lived right down the street. You and my wife would totally be best friends.

Xue

hey Xue
just checked my email and am glad you sent it as I wouldn't have been on here till after the weekend

I can't believe you have never noticed a physical response from just talking before you are obviously not looking - the eyes are a dead give away watch the size of the pupils
I think 'the day' is getting closer and closer
she didn't wake up cranky she woke up frustrated and she hasn't worked out yet what to do about it

If I was her friend who lived up the street I would be telling her to go 'bonk your brains out'

this business partner of yours - is it possible that he at first felt you were both supportive and positive and now you pour water on his ideas simply because you have been in the business a long time and have already tried his ideas??
is he likely to greatly affect you if you let him try and idea that won't work
what I am trying to say is 'how much of his actions directly affect you and your business and therefore how much of this is really your problem
are you guys making this your problem
would it be possible and if yes therefore easier to let him try - maybe tell him something like 'well that's up to you and I guess the only way we learn is to find out for ourselves and experience the results - when we tried that it didn't work but hey it may work for you - different times, situation, people environment etc - you make the decision !!! are you in a position to do this
rather than be the I know all the answers person and you should only do what I say is goodperson? are you able to be the you give it a try and I am here if it doesn't work for you type of person????
Otherwise (from his point of view) nothing he is doing is good enough
I don't know if you are in a position to do this - kind of like what you would do with a kid - let them have the experience and be there to help if it fails
sometimes we have to remember that doing is all about learning and we need to learn from our own experience and not the experience of others
(sounds like you both want to help so much that you try to get him to learn from the experience you both have had and that won't work for him)

memory shut down is normal particularly under stressful conditions if in the past this type of interaction (between you and wife was stressful) you would automatically remember this and your mind would block out what you don't want to remember
also I think you are very easy going in general and it is not in your personality to focus on conversations to the extent required to be able to bring forth memories of particulars
ie yeah well on monday you said >>>>>>>> I remember
you are more inclined to remember generalities and not specifics

you know next time your wife is 'venting' about something and she crosses over to making it about herself and how 'she caused it' agree with her - change the dynamics of the interaction - then smile and laugh at yourself out loud - you need to become really cheeky have an extremely dry sense of humour about the whole thing - tell her not agreeing with her doesn't seem to be working so you are going to try agreeing and if that doesn't work then you may just try sitting on the fence and just listening - be very cheeky about it
it should promote a discussion of what exactly it is she is expecting from you when venting (and vice versa)

One thing I have noticed over the years you guys (Americans) have a tendency towards being serious - you say what you mean and mean what you say!!!!
English and Aussies are the opposite they 'pull your leg' make a joke of it - have an it will be ok in the end attitude

if she were to say to me I needed therapy because I married my mother and got her as a business partner I would probably look really shocked and run around saying no no don't put that thought in my head next time I kiss you I will be thinking of kissing my mother yuk yuk
and next time I see ...... (business partner) I won't be able to stop laughing for picturing him in my mothers clothes or at the very least her underwear

thing is - maybe you did marry her because she is like your mother in some ways - but fact is she is not your mother
the other thing is our thoughts are very subjective so the things you may see in your w that may remind you of your mother are not exactly what she sees as reminding her of your mother - and even if you have talked to her about how you perceive your mother you perceptions are coloured by your experience and her perception of yours is coloured by her experience
so 2 + 2 does not always make 4

I really do think you need to change the dynamics of your interactions slightly
begin to think how do you normally react and move it to the left a lift and don't react quite the same as you normally do

find a brief solution focuses therapist
look them up one the web
look at what brief solution focused therapy is

they look at exceptions, they look at what goes right and when it goes right, what is happening when things are going right - how often things go right
what is good about the relationship
the focus is on positives
not what is going wrong
knowing what is wrong doesn't fix it
looking at what is good and right gives you tools to fix the bits that are not good

you should be able to buy a book on solution focused therapy probably at Borders or one of the big book stores

look around
there is info about BSFT on the following website
[url=http://www.brieftherapysydney.com.au/btis/brief.html]
Brief solution focused therapy website Sydney[/url]

anyhow better go - am at work (naughty)

bj

BJ,

Thanks so much and I'll need to read that over a few times.

Just wanted to say that today has been a productive day. W has brought up in a sarcastic tone several times about her need for "long term therapy" to help her with her strong angry reactions. We talked a little about things several times. Her reactions, my shutting down. This was the first time we have ever talked like this in a completely relaxed tone. This was different for us. No blaming, just talking about things in a manner where we were both looking for solutions and trying to help each other at it.

So what did I do? I brought her an article on changing habits which was a SBT approach. I explained to her about SBT (which I've tried a few times at but she just got defensive) I explained to her what it was and a little about SBT. I told her I wanted the article back because I liked it and reffered to it often.

Guess what? it went really well. She started making jokes about how dangerous it was for me to give her something like that. How she would normally go off at it. It was kinda funny and we both laughed.

This has been very good in the end. I guess it had to come to a head a bit to find a solution. The time was right.

How cool!!!

Xue

You can't ever find a solution to anything until someone brings up the fact there is a problem to be solved

good luck
in all areas of your life

bj

Hey things must be
going dark on your thread is a good indication
I know from going dark myself

Well Ya I think so.

I've finally stepped up the GAL like I should have a long time ago.

Friday I could feel that things were getting stagnant. Just around each other too much. Nothing bad just kinda boring. So I took D to the movies.

Saturday morning we were talking about what we were going to do for the weekend. We discussed going to the lake to watch the firworks (our town does them early). But neither of us were to thrilled about it.

So when I ask her if she wants to go to the lake and watch fireworks with me she says "I would like to go with you but I really want to go do some girl stuff, buy bra's and stuff and go up the hill to check on the house" I say great, why don't you do that. She suggests I go to the coast and get some reading done. I tell her that if I was going to the coast I'd rather take her.

I then go and call a friend and within minutes arrange a ski trip. He has a cabin on this lake near Napa. Big party lake. I'm on the phone within within earshot and I say "I'm sure we can find someone to hold a flag for us" refferring to the fact that we'll need a third person in the boat and there are just the two of us.

I'm packed and out the door in under 20 minutes. Funny, she unpacked and repacked my bags for me.

There was what I percieved as an instant reaction. She came to me and was affectionate.

When I got back she subtly inquired about whether or not we had a flag holder.

So yes, I think I have found the secret. Even though I've been told it numerous times.

Xue

This post is just to change the thread title.

Ya know one thing I have noticed lately is her underwear have reappeared. I help with the laundry sometimes and for many months I've noticed her undrgarments have been absent. I've been really wondering if she's been goin commando all this time or what.

But alas they have reappeared and wholeheartedly. I was folding them last night with her.

I've also noticed that she now where's a tank top with no bra when hanging out with me. Used to cover up completely.

Just before the bomb the thing that I noticed most was that she stopped dressing in front of me. She would hide in the closet to change. Even when we had sex she would leave her t-shirt on.

I believe there is scientific evidence that when men are deprived of seeing women's breasts on a regular basis that there are certain health risks involved

Maybe I'll be healthy again soon

Xue

X,

Just catching up. The big prize is on the horizon I believe - when you finally get the DB principles down, the results can be amazing.

Onward and upward my friend....

Sven

Onward and upward

Xue

Sven,

I do think your so right and that really keeps me going. I can't remember where I read it but a few days ago I read a statistic that said around 10% of married couples reach a state of true intimacy and marital bliss. Truly sad.

This process seems to be universal. Although most aren't talking I think that most everyone goes through it in some way. It wold definetely appear as if we are trying to be taught something. Relationships are where I was lacking in intelligence the most but I'm still intending on getting this right the first time.

You seem to be doig quite well. Hand holding, wow, that's big. It's amazing now how hand holding seems to be such a crazy big thing. Almost bigger than sex. Things have certainly turned around.

Xue

Journalling just a bit.

Monday she was very happy to see me. We went to breakfast to spend time together.

Mornings now I always ask her if she wants to come have coffee with me and it is always a resounding yes. We always spend very quality time on the couch having coffee. We had gotten away from this for a bit. Probably partly from being stressed and busy. It's one thing that really seems to make a big difference. Whether the day goes well because of it or it's an indicator I don't know. But regardless.

Yesterday when she was running errands she called me several times for stuff that didn't warrant a phone call.

I've have been holding back immensely. I don't hardly kiss her unless she comes to me. Yesterday she was on her way out and I didn't budge. She seemed to maneuver for a kiss. Might be my imagination but it's happened several times.

This morning she left for Vegas. Taking a little one night vacation with a friend (Sox you around, wanna check up on her for me? Just kidding) I made sure it was no big deal. She came to me a couple times for a kiss goodbye. I made sure I didn't go to her. There seemed to be surprise in her voice. She thanked me several times for arranging the day off and she seemed a little surprised when she said it. I'm sure she expected me to be a bit needy and I wasn't and haven't been. Between that, a little more gal, and a little time apart I think we're certainly on the right track.

I've mostly stopped wondering when our "big night" is gonna be and this has helped a lot. This thought process continually reminds me of the four noble truths. DB'ing itself reminds me of the four noble truths. So I'm kinda at number 3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases.

Come on number 4

Xuesheng

well Xue all I can say is
when you truly GAL and do things even little things there is a definite shift in the dynamics
Good on you for going ski-ing with your friend
now you are truly on the beginning of the GAL path - well done

and undies in the washing wow

Yes, there have been lot's of little things I've noticed lately.

She called me up from Vegas and said "I'm going to win some money for US" with a whole lot of emphasis on the word us.

The word "I" was really strong in her vocabulary. I hated it the way she said it. "I'm going to be financially independent" etc. It was never "our business"

So last night she was talking and the I slipped back in, then she immediatly corrected herself and said "oh when I say I I mean we" and then got a little flustered with her explanation. So not totally there yet but obviously closer.

We've talked a lot about things in the past that were terrible but have become very strong life lessons. We talk a lot.

I found one of the Gottman books buried deep in her desk. I swear I wasn't snooping. I was happy about that.

A few days ago she was very negative about her own negativity and flying off the handle. Said she'd need a lot of therapy for it. Now she has accepted it as just something she needs to work on and doesn't feel guilty about it.

We do not try to prove each other wrong anymore.

And best of all. The "bad people" are after us again. (Damn that sounds paranoid) I was pretty upset about it. I told her when she got back from Vegas and she did not react. She didn't care much. The next day when I was still upset she said "your not upset about them, your upset because you were freaked out about what my reaction would be"

Wow!!!

Xue

excellent

what else can I say
bj

Hi BJ,

Yes it seems we have made some personal growth strides and a lot of them.

Yesterday was very good also. We spent the whole day talking. Long coffee in the morning followed by a long breakfast out and finally a movie and fourth of July fireworks (not the kind I'm hopig for)

We discussed a lot about the events in our life and how so many times we have been brought to the brink of disaster and then pulled out. It seems to be the norm for us. Like some higher being is creating these situations where we learn the se incredible life lessons but we recover before the true disaster hits. We suffer the emotions, we learn, but we don't have to pay as dearly as is very possible. W and I have a saying we've been through this so much "We'll make it, we always do" We've been so close to disaster so many times and pulled out that we have a lot of faith in this.

Monday I successfully solved some serious business problems. Things had built up badly and with the influence of a few people that want to do us harm, things were worse than I knew. Using BJ's advice I was able to clear the air and fix things. Quite amazing and wonderful. Really something else how the lessons I've learned here have transferred over into the rest of my dealings with people.

We saw a movie last night and it was terrible. "The break up". She picked it and it was suppossed to be a funny movie. It was a depiction of how most relationships go when things go bad and mistakes are made that are seemingly irreversible. We expected the happy ending but the couple split and neither of them really wanted to. It brought up all the old emotions and showed the typical male and female reactions and how they conflict. Even the sound quality and videography was poor in this movie. It put me in a really bad mood and that still lingers today. Trying to snap out of it.

I think we both kinda expected that it would be something that we were at a point that laughing at it would be good. That we had come through it and were ready for that. Not true.

Well the good thing is that we both hated it and we both said we wanted to leave but kept expecting it to get better.

Yesterday at lunch my eyes wandered off to a very attractive but very trampy looking woman standing nearby. W snapped "Don't look at her". I brought my attention back. It's been a really long time and I guess that is starting to show.

Well yes things have continued to progress in a positive manner. I always think, "well this is pretty good" and then another issue tends to come up and get resolved. Physically there is still a push pull going on. I guess what happens is I pull away and then maybe see some results and then rubber band back and back and forth we go.

This is still quite a challenge.

Xue

I was just in her office and saw written on the back of her business card the title to one of Michelle's books. How to change your life...

It was with some cards she brought back from vegas. I know very well that the friend she went to see in Vegas had marital problems a few years back. He gave us a marriage help book as a wedding present. My wife forbid me to read it and it's probably the only book on the subject I have not read. Hmmm now I'm wondering if he is one of the old timers on this board.

I asked her if she wanted to read it and she said maybe in her nervous tone.

I just slipped it under her pillow. Normally a no no but maybe it's ok. ???

I'm taking her on a surprise date tonight but I just got caught. She was getting suspicious and asked me what was going on so I had to tell her. I suck at secrets. Oh well it's the thought that counts.

Xue

change your life and everyone in it its a great book
thank god she didn't have the other one written down
changing her man without him even knowing it
that could have indicated big problems with you

so you are not allowed to look huh?

you blew the surprise - you will have to practice and get better

bj

Yes it is a fantastic book and it explains SBT in the first two chapters. Good stuff. I'm very surprised at her being interested in it. Finally!!!! Even though I don't argue my point or pressure her at all (although I still did but very subtly up until just a couple of weeks ago) I think it is still a little about her not wanting to be wrong.

Last night was great, very romantic. I arranged for us both to get out of work. I packed a nice little picnic and we went to a concert in the park. Two guys in the band played at our wedding. We had a wonderful and fun time. Talking to the band brought back memories of our wedding. She called me honey.

The book, well the couple that gave it to us had marital trouble right from the start I'm sure. They had some issues before marriage that were bound to cause trouble. They gave us the book with a note that said it really helped them. At the time I think my wife wouldn't let me read it because she figured we just would never have any problems. We had it all figured out. We had waited until we were 30 and old and wise before getting married.

Funny W used to talk about how we were so smart to wait until we were so wise to get married and then when things went bad she'd say "We were only 30, didn't know what the hell we were doing". Yesterday we were talking about our D17 and she said "well she better wait until 30 to get married"

After things went bad the book was out of bounds because she had decided there was no fixing things.

Now I could probably read it and it would be fine with her. She seems to be moving cautiously into the figuring things out and fixing them mode. They say here on the boards that the WAS will give no signs of wanting to work on things until very deeply into the fixing process. I guess this all is an excellent sign and pretty evident that things are about to finally work themselves out.

We have another really fun date planned for Friday.

Xue

Well we had a great date Friday night. It was a great concert (Rob Thomas, Jason Mraz). Didn't really expect to like both performers but they both were awesome.

I was a bit jealous of the couple that was with us. They've probably been married 25 years and looked like they just fell in love. Maybe they did. I get the feeling they've been through it though. I'm pretty sure that everyone that gets to where they are must.

I'm thinking at this point we are really completely down to one issue. It's fading but still there. The idea that for a woman to truly be independent and strong she must be single.

I believe we have solved everything else to a workable degree. Maybe even the question of children.

I've been wanting to give a quick synopsis so here goes.

Married coming up on 8 years
In turmoil a little over two
We've never really fought but have learned to when we needed to
Our situation was strange but the process has been the norm. Best way to explain it is if you were to think of us as inadvertently becoming involved in a kinda cult like mafia. When we left there was big trouble. So in addition to the regular old stuff (financial pressures, family pressures, societal pressures) we had this group of people that wanted us gone (sounds paranoid I know)
We pulled off some incredible accomplishments under extreme pressures to get out of the situation and finally now, 3 years later, we are escaping the financial pressures.
A series of deaths that affected us immensely.
The first death was my mentor and this is what put everything into a tailspin and changed our world
Then one of W's close friends was murdered. I lost one very close friend to cancer and another to suicide. A few more on top of that to natural causes but all in a very short timeframe. W already had a terrible fear of death, this didn't help

We were both terrible at relationships knowing what I now know. She was terribly controlling and a terrible pessimist. Very explosive temper and always negative. I was the eternal optimist and when my ideas were shot down I was very creative in my revenge, making her feel stupid and unworthy.

When we married we had a 5 year plan, we were going to discuss kids at that time. Things went south the month before. Coincidence? No

There was no affair but it was damn close. At first she said she never loved me and really loved an old boyfriend. It was when she saw this boyfriend that things got bad. I am quite certain (I think) that there was no affair but all the signs of it were there. Not physical signs like phone records and such but more the way she acted.

Started counseling Jan 05. Counselor did a great deal of damage. She announced her own D only weeks after we started C. We continued to got to her. She convinced W of all kinds of crazy things. Very feminist movement stuff.

Separated mid Nov 05 ( found this board a few days later) Started DB'ing. On Thanksgiving we had a blow out but still went to dinner at her parents. That night she told me that even though it was over between us she wanted me to still be part of her family.

Next day she showed up and hung out for a few days.

That became a pattern, she would stay and then go.

Even now she still will say she is going to go to her place occassionally but ussually doesn't.

I believe we have solved all of the R problems. We have both changed dramatically. We are best friends. We do everything together ( I try to make sure we have separate time) We talk a great deal and have a lot of great quality time.

We're at a point now where our issues of disagreement are actually becoming something to joke about a little. Not solved but they feel lighter.

But from her comments this idea that to be her best self and develop to her highest potential she must be single still lingers. Her actions show that she obviously wants to stay and loves me very much. But she does not want to give in on this point. And I don't want her to give in because she will always feel like she has given in and our marriage will not reach it's potential.

This idea has been strengthened by the audio series "Women who run with the wolves" which I think is very misinterpreted.

She lives with me now and has even changed her language to "us". But there is no intimacy. She still sleeps on the couch. She is still holding out.

I have pulled away and this helps. We are in a state of comfortable. But I am not comfortable. I know if I pull away hard she will panic and come after me. I have seen hints of this. But I want the core issue solved so that she knows she is on the right path.

Whenever the subject of other couples splitting comes up she always thinks the woman should leave and go become a strong woman. This is the constant. Yesterday we had a discussion on this and she agreed with me on some of my ideas on this. She's had this idea that we could be partners and her strengths over me and our relationship would be the same. Have her cake and eat it too sort of thing. We talked aboout other couples and marriage dynamics. Several couples where it is obvious that the man would not be succesful without the woman's guidance but with her he is a powerhouse. Another close friend of mine who has the potential to be very successful but needs a womans guidance. W has always suggested getting an assistant to keep him in line. I made the point that it would never work because he wouldn't listen. Only a wife has that power. If she isn't doing him she has no say in the matters. We talked about R dynamics and how couples work together to be succesful even if the W is a housewife. Doesn't matter.

I am hopeful that we at least put some question in this long held belief of hers that our R would be the same if we were not married. Strange fantasy belief I'm sorry to say, but nevertheless a belief.

I know we are butting heads on this point but I'm not sure where I can give on this. Hopefully the humor coming into it will dissolve it.

We have an outstanding R otherwise. Except I am getting weary. Sometimes now I feel as if my own love for her is dying. I know this is not right but it's a feeling that creeps in sometimes. More so in just the last few days. I have always craved her body. I am becoming less interested. I worry about this because I know I love her. Just don't feel it all the time anymore.

Xue

hi Xue

it sounds like your love for her is not dying but may be undergoing some kind of change
I don't actually see it as what you want - but get the feeling that you have come so far with the friends part that you love is becoming more like that for a friend
I don't see this as something good for the marriage though
you need to be friends within the marriage
and you know what I mean - I mean exactly what you are hanging out for

it is sad that she seems to think still that being single is the meaning of strength when the reality is that it is so much harder to be part of a couple and retain who you are at the same time
how many people marry and become carbon copies of each other

I still think that you need to up the level of GAL for yourself
at the moment you are in status quo
I think she is happy here and will remain happy here for a long time
you need to create some discomfort for her
a little incongruence in how it is and how she thinks it is

maybe some little hints but not outright saying that
hey we are great friends but I want a wife not another friend so even though I am happy with how things are it is not enough

it is actually very easy to walk away and be single and worry about no one but yourself - it does not show strength but selfishness and egotisticalism (don't know if I made the ism up or not) walking away and being single is all about me me me
how can you be strong when you walked away
how can we (you and I) work out how to put this in words you w will understand
and how can we have her understand and feel that this is ok but Xue wants a wife and partner not a friend

this will be hard to nut out but hey we are smart yes?

bj

Well considering that where we are is pretty close to what she said she wanted in counseling then I'd say yes she's comfortable.

She apparently can stay in this state for a very long time.

I see things have gotten a little better each week. But so very little. Things are slightly more affectionate.

Yes I plan on making things a little less comfortable and being less predictable. I had a plan for that last night. She was going to go up the hill to take care of some things up there. She actually asked if I preffered she go last night or the next. I said to go ahead and go but to leave me with the nicer of our two cars. I was going to go out. I didn't say why I wanted the car but I do know she fully expected me to just hang here and even asking that might have been a surprise. Believe me I planned on surprising her much more.

She never left. She hung around doing laundry and such until I finally said I was cooking dinner and would she like some. She then said that she just couldn't seem to get out of here so she'd rather stay. Later she made the point that she wouldn't be going at all.

I've been doing little thins to pull away. Not being quite so available. Actually I'm kinda doing what got me into this mess in the first place, I go to my computer in the morning instead of her.

I debate in my head all the time, words or actions, which is going to solve this. And I know it is actions.

I do think she is more confused than ever. She shows more affection and definetely wants to be with me. But some wrong thinking is confusing her.

She does seem to get nervous about my actions very easy. Last week when I was packing to take her on the surprise date and she saw it she got very inquisitive but tried to act like she wasn't.

So yes I need to GAL hard.

It's been hard because I get of work late at night in a small town. There is nowhere to go. We have the most social place in town, there is nothing else.

This week is going to be busy for me but I'll be gone a lot. Maybe there is opportunity there.

Yes, without a doubt I know I need to upset the status quo. She sabotages my efforts though. Maybe next time I'll just go out anyway.

We are right at the two year mark. It's been two years right about this week since I've gotten any. This is why I've been more frustrated the last week or so. Really it's just a number but I'm starting to get to the enough is enough stage.

Some days I really love her. Other days my frustration overshadows that.

I know she figures that if I go out I'm probably vulnerable and I am. One of the things she married me for is my extreme loyalty. She was very secure in that I would never mess around on her. That was really a big thing for her since she came from several relationships that were much different than that. One guy she dated was a married man and had a half dozen young girls on the side. They all thought he was going to take them away and marry them.

So I am way to predictable and way to trusted. She knows where I'll be, she knows what I'll do. She used to love me for that but I'm sure that quality is percieved as something different now.

This path of listening and quality time has taken me a long ways to fixing this marriage. Learning the marriage skills I have learned have brought me to this point. I do think that she might even want back in our bed. Her language says so at least more than it used to. But there is no reason to make it tonight. and tonight and tonight...

Her independent woman language has gone away also. Like I said before the I's and me's have turned to we's. But the idea is still slightly there.

Her sister is recently married but made her fortune on her own. She is very wealthy. I think W really looks up to that and wants to be that. But never takes into account the price her sister paid. She got where she is by sleeping with one of the richest guys in the state. She worked hard also but she definetely had a boost. And he was a terrible person, she had a miserable life. But W only sees the end result.

Actions, actions, actions. I need to rock this boat.

Xue

In thinking about these recent postings and what I have been butting my head against I think I may have stumbled upon the terribly obvious.

All this time we've been gridlocked with this idea that she thinks she must be single to be a strong indivual and to grow and be happy and successful.

The reality is that this idea is not saying she wants out of the marriage, it is only saying that she wants to be strong, happy, and successful. Someone just told her a lie that she has to be single to do it. But the reality is that she is already becoming it. Marriage has done that to her. These struggles have done that to her. She is very close to becoming what she had set out to become. One day soon she will wake up and realize it herself.

When things went bad we had a terrible life. Terrible stresses and we were in a terrible emotional state. That is in the past. Life is good now and getting better all the time.

So maybe if I helped a little by working out what strong and independent means. A little helping her DB. That ole how would it look stuff that is so awesome and powerful. I can do that.

So BJ had some great stuff on it.

What is strength? What is a strong individual? What do they look like.

1. Not drug down by their emotions. They do not react to the emotions and actions of others.

2.?

I fell in love with her because I percieved her as a strong woman. It would sure make sense for me to support her in becoming that.

Xue

It won't, I was grasping at straws since we seem to be in this hovering pattern for so long. I couldn't figure how we had come so far but couldn't finish the job.

This morning I have been told why!!!

Or this morning I finally heard why!!!

The word is overbearing. She said when talking to my C that my C said to her "It must be hard living with someone so overbearing" and she said "Yes it is"

This is the first I have heard this. W told me she assumed the C told me this.

This is big time forest trees stuff. I'll have to come back later and post.

Folks at least we know what the problem is. This is big even though it hurts a bit.

I'll be back.

Xue

So today has been a humbling experience.

For a very long time I have asked my wife "am I arrogant"
The answer has always been "No your just smart and know your stuff"

Today I asked again but I said " I know I have asked this question a hundred times and you always give me the same answer, but do I come accross as arrogant" I then said I asked my C a long time ago and she gave me the same answer as you. My wife was startled by that and said "What did she say"

I told her that my C simply said that I seemed to be an expert in my field and an expert in many things and I was just teaching at a high level. She said it was like a phd teaching high school students.

My wife said that her discussion was different. She said my c said "It must be hard living with someone so overbearing" My wife said yes it is

I was a bit disgruntled at my c since I have heard nothing of this. My wife assumed I had. My wife said well the C had some whacked ideas anyway like her track record. All she was concerned with was her track record not my wife's happiness. I concurred and said she hadn't helped me a terrible lot and that's why I haven't been back The C said I was doing perfectly and she didn't have much advice for me. Actually said I was so on track I needn't be there. That what I had gained I had gained elsewhere.

My W apologized for telling me. Said she thought I knew and we had had the conversation before. Apologized for ruining my morning. I said no I did not know and thank you for telling me. Although it is hard to hear I need to know.

So we went in for breakfast and talked a little more. A bit of humor crept in. she talked a lot about it being a man's world.

So when I told her I needed to know to deal with it and change it she said that's impossible. "What are you going to do, you are incredibly smart and you hate to see people screw up, what are you going to do just shut up and not say a word."

I think there is a lot in that statement.

Last night we were talking about my proffession being a man's world (or she was) and she was talking about ruling behind the scenes. How a woman in our profession gets her power from who she is wed. This is true in our traditions. She was proud of her ability to do this well.

At breakfast I cautiously mentioned that she was a bit overbearing too. This is nothing new. She says it herself all the time. She said yes she is but when a woman does it it's called nagging and then she stated several descriptions of terms when applied to men are positive but when appplied to women are negative.

She said yes she was extremely overbearing but her overbearingness was overshadowed by my own. She said if it wasn't for me she would seem extremely overbearing. But in a woman it is called nagging.

Now this all should have been very obvious to me. In the idea of unfinished childhood business (do we subscribe to this?) Her father is extremely overbearing. He is very knowledgable or is that a know it all?

So at least I have something to go on here. Maybe this is good. Maybe I should get her "How to change your man..."

Any Help Here?

Xue

Some random thoughts floating in my head. Maybe good, maybe bad.

So she wants a strong man but doesn't want to be overpowered by him. She admires strengtth but is threatened by it???

I know she despises weak men

She said women are predictable if you understand them

Oh great, how am I suppossed to do that. I hardly understand myself and we're the simple sex.

It's a man's world, It's a man's world!!! What does she want, to live on an island with just women. Oh I forgot, she can't stand women.

Maybe I need a woman strong and independent enough to not be swallowed up by my presence!!! (Sarcasm)

Is it just me that this doesn't make any sense to or am I that dense?

She loves to say I'm the alpha male and loves to be the wife of the alpha male, but hates being the wife of the alpha male

rambling on

Xue

As I've had time to cool down from yesterday's talk. I've come to realize that the majority of it was probably more venting past hurts than the reality of today. There were some misconceptions cleared up and truly the conversation went well. W seemed to want to be around me afterwards.

I will be extremely diligent and will do everything I can to not argue my point even in the subtlest of ways but I think these are issues we have mostly resolved or are at least well on the path to it.

I think that there is still conflict in her but I think that if I lovingly detach that it will fade away.

I've noticed other positive things lately. Especially in the way she talks. Things continue to get better.

This has certainly given me a whole lot of insight into the problem and why we have been in a holding pattern so long.

My job requires me to play alpha male once in a while. Last night was one of those times. We spoke about it this morning and she said with a smile. It's fine as long as you do it with a smile. I think that pertains to a lot more than my job.

Xue

I 2nd what your W said, how terms are applied to men and women who do the same thing but is viewed different because of gender. I believe it is very much a fact. No answer from me though on what to do about it, for me I deal with it as it comes. Are you thinking W is resentful about this? being held to different standards?

It would seem that she is, although maybe she's getting over it and learning to deal with it to her advantage. I don't know.

I do know that her C was very resentful of men. She had some influence in their sessions. I suspect that her ex husband may have been percieved as a know it all. He's a c too but has a phd while she has a LFT. There seemed to be some animosity between them about marriage ideas.

My wife has mentioned things about learning to get what she wants from a womans position, especially in our business which has been very male dominated in the past.

Xue

I don't know it's kinda strange. Sometimes she'll talk about it being a man's world as if she's some man hater and then she'll talk about how so and so is such a man hater and how stupid that is. Baffling and most of what she says when she's defending her position (and I make sure that doesn't happen often) absolutely runs counter to her ideals. Alien stuff I guess.

The one thing that really bugs me is she'll use " so my happiness doesn't matter" line. This is something she learned from her C. She must get out of the marriage and pursue her own happiness.

The strange thing is that I think she is very happy now. I just don't think she's realized it yet. She seems to really enjoy life lately. But seems to think she must pursue happiness. Just a bit bqaffling to me.

Xue

I love it - with a smile

ok
just flipping through change your man (seeing as how I haven't read it)
it says something about being a product of your childhood theory

this is what it says
thats how he grew up
another reason you might believe your partner is incapable of real change is that you've convinced yourself that people are merely products of their upbringing. According to this theroy, as impressionable children we observe our parents, how they interact with each other, how they treat us, and we mimic what we see.

it goes on about this a bit and and then says we are definately influenced by our upbringing but researchers have become fascinated with the question of why is it that some people growing up under extremely adverse conditions such as poverty, overcrowding, vilonce, drug abuse and emotional or phyusical abuse become debilitated by their experiences while others rise above adversity.
it continues
Broad epidemiological studies, they say, don't explain why one girl, sexually abused by a relative, become and unwed mother or a prostitue while another becomes Oprah Winfrey or May Angelou. Retrospective studies can't explain why one man raised in a harsh crowded household in impoverished Richmond, California, becomes addicted to crack cocaine and dies of AIDS while his younger brother - Christopher Darden - graduates from law school and goes on to prosecute OJ Simpson - its time they see to see what the Dardens and Winfreys of the world have to teach us.

Stevn Wolin has written a book called The Resilient Self: how survivors in troubled families rise above diversity, which states that although children growing up with alchoholic families have a higher change of developing alcoholism than those in the general population, 70% will not become alcoholic. They also say that growing up in a physically abusive family does not guarantee you will abuse your own children, far from it 70% of those whoe were abused will NOT become abusive parents.
This is what I have personally believed for a long time - I have never subscribed to the product of your past theory - and always felt that someone ought to look at those individuals who did not become a product of their past but became the total opposite
so neither of you are your history or family

now I just found this awesome quote for eveyones fridge door in the book
After he tied 9,999 times to perfect the light bulb and hadn't succeeded some asked Tomas Edison if he was going to have ten thousand failure he answered I didn't fail I just discovered another way not to invent the electric light bulb.

now there is another bit called You Take Over
most women tell me that n the early years of their relationshop things were better, their partners were more involved, responsibilities more equally divided then somehow things changed, Michelle found that there was a point when the woman began to do more and the men backed off the more they backed off the more the women did. Guys tell Michelle tha everytime they do something around the house the dishes making beds vacuuming they receive unsolicited instructions about how to do it 'right' based on their nmeed to feel competent they don't appreciate being corrected and feeling incompetent.
now this reminds me of something you said Xue a long time ago about the business you and your wife are in so I guess we can change the environment from home to work here.

now this bit is interesting
Why does he have to be so dam controlling, he's always telling me what to do and always has to be right

it goes on to say
men like to be in control, but for woman its hard to have a team when the only players are the coach and the water boy.
it continues that testosterone, is responsible in part for the agressive behaviour, males in most species are wired to be on top of the pecking order will do what they must to get there and stay there. it says that is why discussons become competitions. It also says boys are conditioned and socialisd to have a controlling attitude and behaviour and at work they need these skills but when they come home they have a hard time switching it off. These days women want their men strong but they don't want dictators they want collaborators, open to suggestion, we want men who dont equate being wrong with being weak and we want to be appreciated and valued as people we want equal relationships but want to work the remote (for the tv) sometimes too.
it says the worse you can do with a control freak is challenge him head on.

now some of the tips she gives say focus on what you want and not what you DON'T want
having a quick flip through the book I am beginning to think it may not be such a bad idea to order it and give it to her with a big smile on your face

it is very much written like the DB and DR books easy to read nothing nasty for men in it
but is basically bottom line - changing the womans behaviour to get the behaviour from the man she is wanting
anyhow have typed way to much
but I think from her comment humour is definately the way to her heart

bye the way he rang (twice) this week we spoke for almost an hour and he was very funny and told me a story about picking up this girl at a truck stop (me) and then she disappeared off the face of the earth and he didnt know where to find her - I told him he should think about it and would probably find her where she had always been as I believed she hadn't gone anywhere and had been looking for him too.

good luck Xue don't know if I managed to help here but just typed some things I found interesting in the book - that I really ought to read some day soon

bj

can you believe the typing errors in that
i can't
never mind I think it is still readable

BJ,

So happy for you he called. I'll have to pop over and see if you posted about it on your thread.

I lived most of my life proud of not being a product of my childhood. Then one day I took a closer look and found remnants of days past. I quickly set about trying to figure out how to rid myself of them and I believe I've been pretty darn successful.

But every now and then I find another, albeit smaller remnant and I hastily go about fixing that too.

I've long been at a point where it makes no sense to look at the past and dwell there, only at solutions. I absolutely subscribe to the idea of looking only at solutions.

So occasionally when I say something is a product of the past it doesn't mean I'm going there. More of a casual recognition that it may have come from the past but who cares. Let's get on with fixing it.

With that said. I've been gone for a few days. Had to go help out my business partner. I could tell W wanted me to stay two nights but I only stayed one. I just had to get home to eat healthy and sleep in my own bed.

she was a bit dismayed that I came home early. This morning she said "I don't mind being alone". I guess that's better than the former "I want to be alone"

She also corrected me when I said "I" she said "You mean Us" It was kinda in refference to business I think.

Anyway I must show my emotions far more than I think because when we went to leave for breakfast she wouldn't let me drive because I "seemed preoccupied"

So I guess I must anger easily on a touchy subject and let it show when I don't realize I'm letting it show. These must be the instances that she perceives me as overbearing. Although when this happens I am trying to control myself at these times there must be something in my voice or expression that she picks up.

Two solutions I've come up with so far is

1) Stop drinking again. I started drinking wine again a while back. Not much, but I've realized that I'm more easily agitated the next day even if I only drank a small amount. I like reading lately anyway and I don't read if I drink.

2) Get back to jogging more. I stopped for the last few weeks, 100 plus temperatures and my dog was recovering from being spayed so no running partner. We start again tommorrow.

I've also noticed that W keeps mentioning going up the hill to do some stuff for her but never goes. I try to show indifference when she says she's going. I think this has something to do with it. I think she still somehow feels "trapped". I am working hard on getting rid of anything that may appear to trap her. Such as appearing upset when she wants to leave. Opening the cage door as much as I can. Letting her realize she is not trapped.

I really don't know how these ideas got so strongly embedded in her mind but they are.

In the meantime I've gotten better at doing things for me. Reconnected with a training partner and we're going to start working out again.

Funny she says she wants to leave for the day, wants to be alone and then ends up going with me and having a great time. Go figure.

Well I know I need to become less predictable and pull away some. That would seem to be the answer.

Xue

Nicola
you are so clever
you alway seem to have a knack of putting the hard stuff in easy to understand words
now you make me feel like I need to go find an alpha male
there must be one around here somewhere

bj

Yes for so long this concept has been in my head but in a complex way. Never had the ability to explain it without going into some long diatribe. Now it is beautiful in it's simplicity. Even if I never have to use it as an explanation it puts it together in my own head and somehow turned it from a negative to a positive. Now that's awesome.

W seems even happier to be around me the last couple days. Something is different.

Yesterday an ex student walked in. His W is a WAW and a student. She's been incredibly manipulative and when he told us what was up it all became clear. His W has been cheating on him and making him out to be the bad guy restraining order and all. He's trying to keep from losing his child (which there was question whether or not it was his). It was a bad place for us business wise and could get worse. We stay out of the lives of our students but I felt in this case morally obligated to help since we have witnessed her behaviour and it's obvious she's an alien. This was a long discussion with him during which he told us that she has even told him that she never loved him at all and didn't know why she married him (very similiar in a way to what my W said to me originally " I didn't love you enough to marry you")

It all seemed so commonplace from being on these boards but it was emotionally gut wrenching for my W. It really seriously affected her. I kept my mouth shut.

My wife had originally said that our sitch was not fixable because she said ILYBINYLWY and said that was not like everyone else with troubles. Nobody else was in that sitch, it was just not like anybody else. Ha.

and her counselor told her so too.

oh well, it's the past and I'm certainly not going to rub that in her face.

On to the future.

Thanks again Nicola

Xue

I'm glad I was able to help, Xue. I was wondering if it would make sense to you, but I forgot how quick you are (seriously!). I've learned how to put complex information into simple forms for my students, and then the ones who get it ask for more...but that doesn't happen to often, unfortunately.

Interesting about the WAW sitch. I also thought the ILYBINILWY was specific to my M until I came here. Maybe now your W will see that she's not the only one.

I'm in the position now where I'm very comfortable being friends with H and I'm less sure that I want more. Anyway, it's not an issue right now, so I guess I won't worry about it.

~Nicola

Nicola,

That is a gift. I believe it was Werner Heisenberg that said "If you can't explain it to a 5 year old then you don't fully understand it yourself"

I hope she sees it. She's pretty run down right now. Has poison oak and can't sleep. Doing pretty well considering though.

Yes I keep up on your sitch. It sounds like that's a good place for you right now. It's a better place to think rationally.

Your students? Am I remembering right that you teach yoga?

Xue

Close--I'm a yoga student. I teach English lit at a college. I really like my job, which is something I'm so grateful for.

I am pretty comfortable where I am, except I met a nice man at yoga, and it got me thinking about dating again. Argh--I don't even want to want that. But then again, what if I miss out on someone really good? Why is life so confusing?!

I went to see Superman Returns today. It was a little long, but I enjoyed it. The acting and the cinematography were very good, and there was love and adventure, too. As I was watching it, I was thinking of you because Superman and Lois Lane are the ultimate Alpha couple! She is such a headstrong, smart, fearless woman--yet she still wants to be with an even stronger man. And who better than a superhero? I was very sad for her SO, though, who loves her so much but it seems like it might be the end for him.

X,

Just sending you some positive vibes. You continue to learn - all good....

Sven

Hi Sven,

Thanks for the vibes. They are definetely working so I appreciate them.

Yes always learning and hey it's not always painful anymore when I learn. A good thing.

Have fun on the Harley, sounds fun.

Xue

I'm going to start a new thread because I'm so close.

Xue