what was I thinking - DivorceBusting.com

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You are completely ignoring the fact that I'm a housewife...I do h's laundry...in sorting laundry you see/feel things THAT is how I found the underwear. I don't inspect it on a regular basis but let's face it if your sorting clothes and pick up a pair of underwear that are cruchy aren't you going to wonder why?

I'm not ignoring anything, LL. I do laundry too (sorting, washing, drying, folding, even picking his clothes up off the floor) and still manage to do it without inspecting his clothes.

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Let me say one other thing...there was something in an earlier post of yours where you were irked (maybe not the right word) when h told son he would be home and not you directly (or told him things would be less busy soon, or whatever)...I remember way back when you not being pleased if h would buy you flowers and have the kids give them to you...could you see your way clear to being OK with h needing to use the kids as a communication buffer?

It's not OK Sage.

It doesn't seem harmful for the kids and if it still gets the point across to you, does it really matter if he needs that crutch right now?

That's exactly the point! it's a crutch!

A crutch doesn't have to be a long term solution. It's often the thing that people will use to test out the waters, see how something will be responded to. If you're overlaying receiving h's "messge" with a "I can't believe he's using son AGAIN" negative feeling, all that's getting transmitted is that you're negative about his communication. Not a great incentive for him to keep sharing, IMHO, with or without the crutch.

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BINGO! he makes it pretty clear in his actions around here that his return has little to do with a desire to have a r with me and more to "do the right thing" "sacrifice for his family" etc. yes those statements are in quotes because they are words he used upon his return.

Isn't it possible that his thoughts or explanation upon returning haven't stayed stagnant? He wouldn't be the first WAS to offer one reason and later experience another.

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When I try to talk to him about it he's got nothing to say but "I'm doing the best I can" "that's jsut the way I am" trouble is Sage those are the very same words he used when I expressed displeasure with our r and guess what he was having an A.

I think you're linking things that may or may not be related. Your h's "I'm doing the best I can" doesn't necessarily have to correlate with an A...he probably does feel as though he's doing the best he can.

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Hey look, some women might be perfectly happy with raising the kids, doing the laundry, cooking, cleaning the house, and then spending every evening alone while their h falls asleep in anther room, it might be OK to them that on the rare occassion that their h wants to have sex he wont even kiss her, it might be OK for them but it isn't for me and if that's just the way h is well it's not good enough for me and well he sold me a lie when he came home because then he certainly had time for me.

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I don't complain to h anymore...don't question when he'll be home...don't complain when he's gone 12 hours and I don't hear from him...I do my best to let him be..but there does come a time when things need to be addressed..I do my best to not accuse but to simply point out how I feel about what's going on or not going on...when I do that I'm given no response or "that sux" or "I'm doing the best I can" or "that's just the way I am" or "it's a busy time right now" the only response that may seem valid is "it's a busy time" trouble is it's ALWAYS busy...if it's not fall clean ups, it's spring cleanups, snow storms, big projects, getting ready for snow, getting ready for spring, it's always something. It could be the dead of winter with no snow storms in sight and he'll still go to work (to do what I don't know) and then come home and fall asleep.

So talking with him and telling him how you feel isn't working...that's not new. What other ways can you convey this to him?

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About the only thing that comes out of a converstation about the lack of us is that he suddenly spends more time with the kids but as soon as they're asleep or it's time for football or foxnews he's gone...back down to his cave. I'm tired of trying to pull him out of his cave..tired of waiting by the cave...tired of leaving a trail of crumbs for him...tired of walking away from the cave and doing my own thing to suddenly realize there's someone hiding in a cave around here...I've been doing that for 15 years and I don't want to do it anymore.

Why is doing your own thing equated with hiding in a cave?

I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything when h is in his cave (pulling, waiting, etc) but have you ever really stopped being pissed at your h, LL?

Sage

Sage

drowning!

ll -- h is taking the early train (I drop him off) so I don't have time for a proper reply...I'll rely on DB for guidance...what has worked in the past to get you guys out of this kind of slump? Is it doing something that makes you feel better? (nights out with "the girls", shopping, taking a class?) or is it something that draws you and h closer together? (a movie? some exercise?)

I know I"m being entirely too simplistic here but I"m not looking to suggest "THE FIX" but more to the point maybe the first step towards getting out of this cycle.

More later (tomorrow most likely)

Sage

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I know I"m being entirely too simplistic here but I"m not looking to suggest "THE FIX" but more to the point maybe the first step towards getting out of this cycle

trouble is, it no longer feels like a cycle...it feels more like a rut. In the past what would have ended it is for me to first make it worse by bringing it into the open...in other words to stop just going about my business letting keeping happy while the drift between us grows and mention my displeasure with the current path of the r (or noting the seeming lack of).

That talk would normally end with a fight due to his lack of having anything to add or take away..which would then lead to more distance which inevitably would lead to him rejoining the living.

I have been going out a bit more with friends and I think that is having some effect on h though not enough. The past two Sundays h has made the suggestion and followed through with spending a family day at our towns private beach (lakefront). So we fish, swim, hang out etc at the lake and eventually start to feel like a normal family only to arive home where h just falls right back into his falling asleep. Yesterday for example we got home from the lake @ 7..by 7:30 h was asleep and I was bathing and putting the kids to bed myself..h has also starting telling son he can sleep in our bed for a while which of course leaves me to carry a 45+ lb 6 year old to his own bed if I'd like to sleep in mine...enough of that so I've slept in the guest room with no comment from h.

several months back h had an "anxiety attack" and was given some pills to take...he's been put on Paxil (to take daily) and also has some other pills to take when needed (which seems to be once or twice a day). He also seems to be drinking a bit more (beer) than is common for him (at least a beer or two nightly before crashing as well as drinking at the lake each sun).

I could assume his falling asleep is a result of the medication/drinking...but he's been falling asleep early for years.

maybe I should just ask him if he's still interested in an open marriage..or maybe I should just give in and let those that want to follow him follow him and see what (if anything) he's up to.

LL

LL -
Does your H snore or have restless leg syndrome? Sleep apnea or other sleep disorders can cause excessive daytime lethargy and falling asleep early. Depression can also cause excessive sleepiness. And if those anti-anxiety pills he takes are Valium or Librium or Xanax or a related drug, they cause sedation AND it is dangerous to take them with alcohol (that's the combo that put Karen Ann Quinlan into her coma).

Please go with him to his doctor and try to straighten this stuff out. It might make a big difference.

Ellie

Lost Love,
I'm not a doctor, but maybe your h is a narcissist. Why don't you got to a therapist and explain, see what they think. Start setting money aside, seems like you've already got a life.

Hi Ellie,

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Does your H snore or have restless leg syndrome?

neither.

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Sleep apnea or other sleep disorders can cause excessive daytime lethargy and falling asleep early. Depression can also cause excessive sleepiness.

I don't believe it to be a sleep disorder...it's more a socializing disorder. unless h is involved in something he enjoys (watching football, racing, hanging with his buddies) he will fall asleep anywhere.

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And if those anti-anxiety pills he takes are Valium or Librium or Xanax or a related drug, they cause sedation AND it is dangerous to take them with alcohol (that's the combo that put Karen Ann Quinlan into her coma).

he's on Paxil on a day and clorazapan (I can't find the correct spelling to look it up as he keeps those with him and leaves them in the truck) as needed (which I believe is one or two a day while out an about...not on weekends or in the evening, unless he pops one before coming in the door)

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Please go with him to his doctor and try to straighten this stuff out. It might make a big difference.

clear example of the kind of relationship we DON'T have. I am not his mother and would never be invited nor would I impose myself to go to the doctor with him. I've asked him in the past about certain issues and if he's taken them up with his doctor. Basic point is...I don't have nor do I wish to make the time to run off to the doctor with him...he wont listen to the doctor (who recommended he see a phychiatrist.) why would he listen if I'm there too.

LL

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Lost Love,
I'm not a doctor, but maybe your h is a narcissist. Why don't you got to a therapist and explain, see what they think. Start setting money aside, seems like you've already got a life.

You're probably right!

LL

The drug he's taking is a relative of valium, sedating and potentially addictive. What you CAN do is talk to his doctor yourself, tell him you understand he can't tell you nything about your H (privacy) but that you want to let him know what you are seeing in terms of the excessive sleepiness.

Ellie

I agree with Ellie. You've spent so much effort on this, why not just find out more info on the medical side.
I'm sure the pills are putting him to sleep. Unfortunately, he'd prefer to do that than face reality for some reason.

Also, If you think he may be a narcissist then try giving him admiration, admiration and admiration. See what happens.

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The drug he's taking is a relative of valium, sedating and potentially addictive. What you CAN do is talk to his doctor yourself, tell him you understand he can't tell you nything about your H (privacy) but that you want to let him know what you are seeing in terms of the excessive sleepiness.

Ellie

thing is Ellie, his "sleepiness" is nothing new. Before we even married when I'd visit him he'd fall asleep...when his roomates would come home they'd sit and play jenga or cards or just chat with me while he laid there sleeping on the couch. It's only gotten worse as time has gone by. I suppose I just should have known better....maybe I was fooled into believing he would eventually change back into the person I once knew.

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I agree with Ellie. You've spent so much effort on this, why not just find out more info on the medical side.
I'm sure the pills are putting him to sleep. Unfortunately, he'd prefer to do that than face reality for some reason.

as I said to Ellie, it's not just the pills. and I don't care to find out...I'm tired of trying to save or rather create this r.

Also, If you think he may be a narcissist then try giving him admiration, admiration and admiration. See what happens.

I'm done being his cheerleader...all it gets me is a man who's happy while I still am left without my needs being met. I'm starved for affection and attention because he somehow thinks all he needs to be is a breadwinner.

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thing is Ellie, his "sleepiness" is nothing new. Before we even married when I'd visit him he'd fall asleep...when his roomates would come home they'd sit and play jenga or cards or just chat with me while he laid there sleeping on the couch. It's only gotten worse as time has gone by. I suppose I just should have known better....maybe I was fooled into believing he would eventually change back into the person I once knew.

Look - he's not falling asleep to spite you! It's either the meds, a sleep disorder, severe depression, hypothyroidism, or narcolepsy - whatever it is, he needs medical treatment!

Ellie

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Look - he's not falling asleep to spite you! It's either the meds, a sleep disorder, severe depression, hypothyroidism, or narcolepsy - whatever it is, he needs medical treatment!

Ellie

In some sense he IS doing it to spite me. Part of it is due to the fact that he does wake early and does work hard BUT he could stay awake for a bit at least one night a week if he wanted to (did during his "courting" or returning home after seperation)...he just chooses not to.

I don't expect the man who leaves for work at 5:30 am and doesn't return til 7pm to be a party animal up all night with me but I don't see why he (as the boss after all) couldn't schedule one day light for himself so that he could stay awake and attentive with me for an hour or so after the kids have gone to bed (they're young and are both asleep by 9 during summer and 8 or earlier in winter) instead of simply going to bed at the same time or before them.

when I make this suggestion I am met with a wall "can't do it" which of course I read as "wont do it"

instead of making some (and I'm talking minimal here) time for US he's content to live in the "this is the stage we're in" meaning right now we're raising kids etc so that's it. HUH? how are we supposed to have a relationship with eachother when the house is paid off and the kids are grown if we don't foster it now?

I thought he had realized you can't just coast until some future time...he after all sought out a r with another woman...would that not show proof that simply existing to work and pay the bills isn't enough?

Did he not learn anything?

a hair pulling UGH!

LL

Lost Love,

I understand you not wanting to be his cheerleader anymore. i didn't mean to give him unending admiration. I just meant it as a two day experiment. Just for your own amusement to see if infact he is a narcissist, that's all.

Hi Lostlove,

Been a while since I have been around and I have been going through pretty much the same stuff you have. Funny how our lives just seem to run along parallel lines

H sleeps a fair bit too, when he is not sleeping he is in his den playing on the PC. He also drinks too much I mean 6 beers a night - not your lite beers either but Kronenbourg.

I too have recently come to the conclusion he is a narcissist and started reading up stuff on the web about narcissism. Trouble is nearly all of it is really negative and pretty much says they are incurable.

But wait... I ordered some books off Amazon and the first one to come through was Narcissism - a denial of the true self by Alexander Lowen. I read it over the weekend and it kind of blew my mind. For one thing it is not totally negative about a person being narcissistic there can be hope

For another thing although it confirmed my belief that H is a narcissist or even borderline personality disorder I also noticed that I too have several narcissist tendencies.

To cut a long story short Lowen is one of the founders of Bioenergetic therapy and I tried a couple of the exercises he gives in the book to release pain and anger that is stored in the body. I did this while the kids were out with H. Lucky I did because you could have heard the sobs and wails that came out across the other side of town.

Since then I have been feeling so different in my skin I can't explain it - just easier. The wild thing is that the difference in feeling within me is affecting H. In the last few days our R just seems to have turned around without me feeling like I am doing anything. Not doing anything different - just being different. That is the crux it is being rather than doing. Some of what is said in the book is about being rather than doing and you can't make that happen by thinking about it, that is where the exercises come in.

The other night we were talking about the camping trip we have planned for the end of August. H seemed like he was just talking about taking S(6) and just kind of jokingly saying you and D can go and do girly things together. I was annoyed about this because it seemed like he had been planning this with S behind my back and that what he was basically saying was with my one week of vacation this year I would rather spend time with S than with you. So I said this to him and he sighed and started saying I don't really feel like having this conversation. So I said just tell me what you really think and he started saying all this stuff which before I would have had to really struggle not to throw right back at him. I just sat and listened to him, but I wasn't trying to listen I just was listening. So he said what's wrong why aren't you arguing and I just said I'm listening. So he said some more stuff and it turned into a long and fairly honest account of how he felt our marriage had gone and his part in it and how he had given up everything for me. All this stuff would have just sent me wild before with the injustice of it, but I just felt totally able to give him the space to be heard.

We have ML - good ML not just sex a couple of times since. We have had a long intimate fun-loving chat about anything and everything. I can't remember the last time that happened. We even reminisced about happy times, we could not have done that before it felt like the happy times were gone forever.

I think H will read the book too, he is saving it for when I take the kids to see my Dad.

Read the book LL, You were the first person I thought of to post to on this board. I pray you get something out of it.

take care

Fran

Starting to really feel like h may be involved with OW again...no real proof..just that feeling. Well that feeling on top of the fact that things just aren't and haven't been right between us for some time...just an ever widening gap between us.

Hey I had that feeling for some time before but it took a fluke accident for to be proven true (h was finally seen by someone on my side vs his).

I don't know what to do...can't hire a PI...can't follow him around all day...wont bother to ask him cause that'll get me nowhere.

somethin's rotten in LL land.

I'm at a loss.

I'm tired of the lack of relationship between h and I...what little there may have been seems to be fading fast.

H now no longer calls during the day...unless you count the call when he's on his way to tell us he's on his way and it's usually late.

when he does get home it's eat and then hit the couch to watch the news and fall asleep.

we still don't

with any regularity and thinking back over the past year + during those encounters he doesn't even kiss me...always has some excuse (bad breath despite the fact that I bought those listerine strips to keep in his night stand, and when bad breath wouldn't be a factor he still doesn't and has made no attempt despite the fact that I've let him know it removes intimacy from the encounter)

I have a gut feeling (as well as having found 3 pairs of underwear spotted with manhood) that he is either involved with ow again or a new ow.

trouble is I cannot discuss my feelings about the r or my suspicions with him cause it'll get me no where.

I almost want him to be cheating so I can catch him eventually and be done with this scharade...but if I don't I'm still unhappy with the way things are and have no real way to change them.

I can put on a happy face and act as if but what does that get me? a happy husband who will still just fall asleep and ignore me.

last night he turned to son (6) and told him he's sorry for getting home so late lately that it'll be like that for another month and then he'll be around...son hadn't asked so why direct it at him unless of course he's the only reason you are here (I do feel like h only came home because he saw how much son was hurting while he was gone..the kid had just turned 3 and had a new baby sister piled onto the fact that suddenly daddy was leaving after he went to bed if he came at all) I then took the opportunity to ask him why he hadn't at least been calling us during the day..to which he replied "I do call you" "not until you're on your way home".

I'm lost...trying to recall exactly why I wanted him back...probably because I was 29 with two young kids living in a new home and didn't know what the future held. Well now I'm 33 and still not happy with my m and don't know what the future holds.

I feel very much like we both may have been better off if he just kept on his journey toward divorce.

LL

Hi again, LL!

is it just coincidence that most often when I write on my thread something negative you bump up one of these positive threads?

Yes, it really is just a coincidence! (At least this time it was, anyway!!

)

Forgive my brevity for the moment, but I just wanted to touch base with you real quick, and will try to get back with you soon. Also, I wanted to commend you on all the GAL things you've been doing, and how hard you've been trying to get your marriage to where you want it to be.

Just to throw this out there for now, and not for any actions yet, it seems to me like "passive" forms of DB'ing have yielded results for you, but not quite the results you've been looking for. If I recall correctly, it seems like more "aggresive" DB'ing helped to at least bring him back to you. Is that correct?

Again, not for action yet, but I'm wondering what types of "drastic" 180's might be out there for you to really shake things up a bit? You've done so many things "right" so far, and maybe it's time to do something different?

Again, sorry to be so brief, but just some food for thought. Will try to get back with you some more later!

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Hi again, LL!

is it just coincidence that most often when I write on my thread something negative you bump up one of these positive threads?

Yes, it really is just a coincidence! (At least this time it was, anyway!! )

I was noticing a treand

Forgive my brevity for the moment, but I just wanted to touch base with you real quick, and will try to get back with you soon. Also, I wanted to commend you on all the GAL things you've been doing, and how hard you've been trying to get your marriage to where you want it to be.

Thank you for noticing! I've done almost too well in gal...it's certainly helped to keep me busy and having things to look forward to but hasn't seemed to do much for my m

Just to throw this out there for now, and not for any actions yet, it seems to me like "passive" forms of DB'ing have yielded results for you, but not quite the results you've been looking for.

exactly!

If I recall correctly, it seems like more "aggresive" DB'ing helped to at least bring him back to you. Is that correct?

When h was gone it was easy to be aggressive. To detach, be mysterious etc. When he first returned it was easy to shake things up by letting him know my dissatisfactions with things..he then seemed more willing to make desired changes. Since then any "aggressive" action is counterproductive.

I'm stuck. It seems like all I've got left is a real LRT..meaning I once again let him know I'm not happy with things are and plan to take action...but am I ready to really go through with it? the last time I mentioned my disatisfaction with things he simply said "well that sux" and that was the end of the conversation and nothing changed.

Plus why should I have to be aggressive to get the simple things I want..after 15 years of trying to talk to him about us he knows what I want..why should I have to be aggressive about it? why should I be put in the position to feel like I have to force him to show me the love I want/need/deserve. Haven't I been through enough with him already for him to get it? I honestly feel like the only time he was being honest with me about his feelings was when he was leaving and that his return was only for our son (yes we have dd too but she was too young to have been affected by his absense the way son was) and out of the fears he may have had of simply assuming the same roll in ow's family. Maybe I put too much pressure on him to come home...maybe he shouldn't have but now we're just stuck playing house again.

I don't want him to be cheating again but it's almost like that's the only way I'm going to get him to open up and be honest about his feelings. Of course if he's cheating I'm done so there's no point in it. If he's not well he sure doesn't act like he's interested in being with me...I'm just "the wife".

Again, not for action yet, but I'm wondering what types of "drastic" 180's might be out there for you to really shake things up a bit? You've done so many things "right" so far, and maybe it's time to do something different?

The way I see it, there are only three drastic things I can do.

1. Snoop and find him cheating
2. cheat myself, and that's obviously a ridiculous idea!
3. contact a lawyer and let him know I'm considering D unless things drastically change.

any thoughts or other drastic measures I can take?

Again, sorry to be so brief, but just some food for thought. Will try to get back with you some more later!

sometimes brief is more than is needed. I do hope you check back in soon.

LL

Hey LL,

Sorry you're having a rough go of it. I'm not sure what to say that will be particularly helpful...I think you already know my bent, right? Rough patches at home always lead to a re-reading of DR for me followed by a re-reading of Mars & Venus. The combination regrounds me, gets me back doing stuff that "works" (in my M, at least), etc. Throw in some meditation, a good dose of exercise and some QT with h (most likely just hanging out on the couch watching some sporting event!)...

You probably also can anticipate my other thoughts...those around snooping (which I guess one can classify the whole underwear thing as, right?). It just created so many bad feelings for me...so much badwill that I KNEW I was creating a negative mood. Maybe it's naive (I'm sure some will say so) but again, it just doesn't work for me.

But, hey, this isn't about ME or my M, right? What gets you and h back on track, LL?

Let me say one other thing...there was something in an earlier post of yours where you were irked (maybe not the right word) when h told son he would be home and not you directly (or told him things would be less busy soon, or whatever)...I remember way back when you not being pleased if h would buy you flowers and have the kids give them to you...could you see your way clear to being OK with h needing to use the kids as a communication buffer? It doesn't seem harmful for the kids and if it still gets the point across to you, does it really matter if he needs that crutch right now? Or, is all of this more related to the point you recently brought up that you feel h came back only for son?

Sage

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Hey LL,

Sorry you're having a rough go of it. I'm not sure what to say that will be particularly helpful...I think you already know my bent, right? Rough patches at home always lead to a re-reading of DR for me followed by a re-reading of Mars & Venus. The combination regrounds me, gets me back doing stuff that "works" (in my M, at least), etc. Throw in some meditation, a good dose of exercise and some QT with h (most likely just hanging out on the couch watching some sporting event!)...

Sage by now you know that I don't get QT with my h not even in the form of watching tv. What I do works for Me makes me happier but doesn't change the status of my r with h and THAT is the problem. He's happy as long as I'm happy and leaving him alone.

You probably also can anticipate my other thoughts...those around snooping (which I guess one can classify the whole underwear thing as, right?). It just created so many bad feelings for me...so much badwill that I KNEW I was creating a negative mood. Maybe it's naive (I'm sure some will say so) but again, it just doesn't work for me.

You are completely ignoring the fact that I'm a housewife...I do h's laundry...in sorting laundry you see/feel things THAT is how I found the underwear. I don't inspect it on a regular basis but let's face it if your sorting clothes and pick up a pair of underwear that are cruchy aren't you going to wonder why?

But, hey, this isn't about ME or my M, right?

No, it's not.

What gets you and h back on track, LL?

when I ignore all the signs that things aren't working and just pretend to be happy...but then realize things really aren't on track I'm just ignoring the fact that they aren't.

Let me say one other thing...there was something in an earlier post of yours where you were irked (maybe not the right word) when h told son he would be home and not you directly (or told him things would be less busy soon, or whatever)...I remember way back when you not being pleased if h would buy you flowers and have the kids give them to you...could you see your way clear to being OK with h needing to use the kids as a communication buffer?

It's not OK Sage.

It doesn't seem harmful for the kids and if it still gets the point across to you, does it really matter if he needs that crutch right now?

That's exactly the point! it's a crutch!

Or, is all of this more related to the point you recently brought up that you feel h came back only for son?

BINGO! he makes it pretty clear in his actions around here that his return has little to do with a desire to have a r with me and more to "do the right thing" "sacrifice for his family" etc. yes those statements are in quotes because they are words he used upon his return. When I try to talk to him about it he's got nothing to say but "I'm doing the best I can" "that's jsut the way I am" trouble is Sage those are the very same words he used when I expressed displeasure with our r and guess what he was having an A. Hey look, some women might be perfectly happy with raising the kids, doing the laundry, cooking, cleaning the house, and then spending every evening alone while their h falls asleep in anther room, it might be OK to them that on the rare occassion that their h wants to have sex he wont even kiss her, it might be OK for them but it isn't for me and if that's just the way h is well it's not good enough for me and well he sold me a lie when he came home because then he certainly had time for me.
I don't complain to h anymore...don't question when he'll be home...don't complain when he's gone 12 hours and I don't hear from him...I do my best to let him be..but there does come a time when things need to be addressed..I do my best to not accuse but to simply point out how I feel about what's going on or not going on...when I do that I'm given no response or "that sux" or "I'm doing the best I can" or "that's just the way I am" or "it's a busy time right now" the only response that may seem valid is "it's a busy time" trouble is it's ALWAYS busy...if it's not fall clean ups, it's spring cleanups, snow storms, big projects, getting ready for snow, getting ready for spring, it's always something. It could be the dead of winter with no snow storms in sight and he'll still go to work (to do what I don't know) and then come home and fall asleep.
About the only thing that comes out of a converstation about the lack of us is that he suddenly spends more time with the kids but as soon as they're asleep or it's time for football or foxnews he's gone...back down to his cave. I'm tired of trying to pull him out of his cave..tired of waiting by the cave...tired of leaving a trail of crumbs for him...tired of walking away from the cave and doing my own thing to suddenly realize there's someone hiding in a cave around here...I've been doing that for 15 years and I don't want to do it anymore.

Sage

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I'm not ignoring anything, LL. I do laundry too (sorting, washing, drying, folding, even picking his clothes up off the floor) and still manage to do it without inspecting his clothes.

SO, if in picking up a pair of underwear your h left on the floor you felt them to be crunchy you wouldn't wonder why they were crunchy and look? you can't be serious.

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A crutch doesn't have to be a long term solution. It's often the thing that people will use to test out the waters, see how something will be responded to. If you're overlaying receiving h's "messge" with a "I can't believe he's using son AGAIN" negative feeling, all that's getting transmitted is that you're negative about his communication. Not a great incentive for him to keep sharing, IMHO, with or without the crutch.

I'd call three years a long term solution. It was cute when he first started doing it but the cuteness has worn off and I'd like my husband to direct himself towards me and stop using the kids as a go between.

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Isn't it possible that his thoughts or explanation upon returning haven't stayed stagnant? He wouldn't be the first WAS to offer one reason and later experience another.

Sure it's possible but I'm not looking at his words I'm looking at his actions...the words were just there...and to be honest it wasn't just upon his return that he said it...he continued to say it. The man doesn't talk he hides behind "that's just the way I am" "I'm doing the best I can" eventually with enough push he will speak and I've heard it being about the kids and the house more than once.

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I think you're linking things that may or may not be related. Your h's "I'm doing the best I can" doesn't necessarily have to correlate with an A...he probably does feel as though he's doing the best he can.

MAY or may not be...you're right it doesn't have to correlate with another or the same a...the point is "the best he can" isn't working.

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So talking with him and telling him how you feel isn't working...that's not new. What other ways can you convey this to him?

If I knew do you think I'd be posting to this site? no I'd be off having a happy healthy m with him.

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Why is doing your own thing equated with hiding in a cave?

it's not that doing your own thing means your in a cave but when night after night after night week after week month after month you continue to "do your own thing" and spend no time with your spouse it's like hiding in a cave.

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I think I hear you saying that you've tried everything when h is in his cave (pulling, waiting, etc) but have you ever really stopped being pissed at your h, LL?

I stopped being pissed at h a long time ago...Now I'm just pissed at myself.

LL

what if...

what if my h is just one of those guys whose happy to be the breadwinner have his wife bring him a cup of soup and doesn't need or desire much more (ie. the affection, qt I desire)

before seperation/outing of a...h and I did have a discussion (strangly prompted by him) of what makes a good h...h thought that being a good provider was worth 75% keeping the lawn looking good worth 15% or 20% I don't recall what else he gave credit too....Why h was suddenly questioning such things I don't know...but his thoughts do say a lot.

I know it's important for a man to feel like a provider but to the extent that h takes it?

I know a lot of people read my threads...I also know that a lot of the people that read my threads hear nothing but anger...though it make read as anger it's not...it's frustration! I'm proud of my h that he is the provider that he is...heck when I met him he didn't have a pot to piss in...litterally...I was with him before he started his business...I helped him start it. I'm proud of all he's done and I've said so.

What I'm not proud of is the fact that he's let it consume him.

There are so many things...so many things that I could say that may help explain my sit to you all...I'm sure it's all there in bits and pieces over the past 3 years...but here's the short version...

I met h when I was 16 ( a junior in hs) h was 19 ( a sophmore in college though he dropped out shortly after meeting me) we got married roughly 8 years later and have been married for 8 years. There were 3 or 4 break ups during the 8 years prior to m...all initiated by me why? for the very same reasons I talk about now...always fell asleep on me...didn't have time for me...rejected my sexually..etc. I'm honestly NOT rewritting history...it's the truth.

H is who he is...yes I chose to marry him despite my dipleasure with the way things were...there was a part of me that hoped it would get better...there was a part of me that believed him when he told me they would...trouble is over the years things didn't get better they got worse.

I come here for help because I don't really want to D...if I didn't have a family maybe that would be for the best but I don't want to put my children through it unless absolutely necessary.

I believe h IS capable...why else would I have kept going back to him...maybe he's just good at starting a r..paying attention giving the time and then retreats...maybe he doesn't know how to balance things...or maybe it's me like so many of you here try to have me believe.

in any case...I am looking for ways to make things better or to be certain it can't be made better.

LL

I just read thru this thread, and the whole time I kept thinking - this lady is angry, she is upset about being stuck in her life, she is not happy about one single thing. And then this very last post gave me a little different sign. But LL, what ARE you happy about? I know you're busy and cook and clean and volunteer and do gobs of stuff for GAL, but does any of it make you happy? do you smile? We all have plenty of things to be sad and upset about, but we also usually have at least one thing to post that is happy or good. This thread started in July (?) and I didn't get that feeling one single time from you.

Would this be possible and be a 180? ask H for 1 hour during the day and you and the kids could meet him for lunch. Or just you. Just one hour.

Well worldchampionwife,

I did have a nice long post listing all the happy things in my life and don't you know my cat came walking across the keyboard and somehow left me with a blank slate. It's what she does when I sit here...walks back and forth til finally finding her spot atop the monitor where all I can see is the occassional glimpse of her glowing eyes.

All I can say now is that I life a full life...I laugh...I make others laugh...I spend a lot of time with friends, family, my kids doing all kinds of great things...fishing with son, dancing/singing with dd, joking/dancing/singing karaokee with my friends...reading enjoyable books etc.

I am a very happy person...I love to laugh...love to make jokes...love to make others laugh....

I came to this site almost 4 years ago when my h moved out...that was a time when I posted every day...when you'd see more of the day to day...good And bad...I don't come as often anymore...most often now I post when I'm frustrated or when someone replies to me so of course all you're going to see is the neg.

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Would this be possible and be a 180? ask H for 1 hour during the day and you and the kids could meet him for lunch. Or just you. Just one hour.

because of the hours h works he doesn't see the kids much...there was no way around it before (I used to call on my way home from prenatal apt when I was preg with dd so he could at least see son awake...I'd ask him if he could grab lunch with us but he was always too busy)...but after learning of his a...that occured all during the day (he admitted to having lunch with her at least 3x a week)...upon his return I suggested that when he knows he's going to have the free time he let me know and I'd come down to visit with the kids for a quick lunch (grab some subs, go to the park etc)...it happend once and that was the end of that. now he's too busy. I'd love to have one hour but he claims to not even have the time for a phone call never mind an hour. "just" one hour to you and to me sounds like "just" one hour but I can't even get a 1 min phone call from him during the day.

I don't mean to sound so negative...I'm not a negative person...I try to see the postive in things but after a while it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I really don't know what to do anymore...I don't want to D but right now it seems like the only other option is to just pretend I'm OK with this life...that's not fair to me...to H or more importantly to the kids...we all deserve to be happy.

LL

I like this post LL...you've said so much in a few words.

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before seperation/outing of a...h and I did have a discussion (strangly prompted by him) of what makes a good h...h thought that being a good provider was worth 75% keeping the lawn looking good worth 15% or 20% I don't recall what else he gave credit too....Why h was suddenly questioning such things I don't know...but his thoughts do say a lot.

This is straight out of M&V, but I'm sure you know that.

My two cents isn't what you're going to want to hear but I'm gonna give it anyway. Don't ask for his time ('cause that doesn't seem to work well for you and it just leads to frustration). I (personally) would turn up the "appreciation machine" regarding what h DOES do. I would get vocal about it, get totally REAL about it (to paraphrase Dr. Phil), really and truly accept your h for the hard-working, "doing the best I can" h for who he is...because IMHO, as soon as you can totally do that, I suspect you will see a man who will blossom under your appreciation and love. And who will be far more likely to meet you in the middle...

In the meantime, of course, take care of LL...get out some, do things that make you happy, shake off some of the, er, malaise about not getting your needs met...get them met! Just do it yourself until h feels needed, appreciated, loved again.

And before you say "I've tried that, it isn't going to work" let me say this...if you ultimately decide to D h, you will have lost absolutely NOTHING by completely, utterly and thoroughly accepting him...in fact, it you totally took the "that's just who he is and this is who I am" to a natural extreme, you may feel nothing but total acceptance and compassion for him, anyway.

(Note: I'm completely not suggesting that "accept him for who he is" includes infidelity, abuse, etc. I personally don't think that's what we're discussing here so I ask thread readers to bear that in mind with my approach.)

Sage

I'll chime in and say I liked your last posts better too LL.

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in any case...I am looking for ways to make things better or to be certain it can't be made better.

I understood this from your posts both here & the other forum, but I think it's the first time I've actually seen you say this. I'm going to make a suggestion you probably won't like: if you are looking for ways to make things better, then perhaps the first thing I would drop is the "I've already done everything I can" phrase from your vocabulary. Are you willing to keep an open mind, a Beginner's Mind?

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I come here for help because I don't really want to D...

Good! Then you've come to the right place. As I was trying to tell you on the other thread, this was not obvious from your posts. On this side of the screen what resonnated loud & clear was your resentment, and resignation that you had done all you could. LL, you have to really want to try to improve your R - otherwise I'm guessing the same frustration / resentment is just oozing out of you at home too - whether you're conscious of it or not.

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I (personally) would turn up the "appreciation machine" regarding what h DOES do.

I agree with Sage on this 100%. What have you got to lose? Are you willing to make a one month experiment here and monitor results? Can you find ways to genuinely praise H. for what he does do, and just zip it (for one month only) about YOUR needs?

I think you're right when you say H. is capable of more - as evidenced by his former ability to have lunch 3x a week. I understand your anger & resentment about this. But I will bring up a point I read about affairs that I think is important to remember - in general they are NOT about the OW, nor about the sex, it is about the way he FEELS ABOUT HIMSELF when he is with her. When I read that I cringed - and let me say that I in no way, no how condone affairs or make excuses for them - but it got me to thinking about what I could do to make him feel good about himself when he's with me. And in my case, it turns out that WOA go a L-O-N-G, long way in getting me what I want.

So, LL, what will it be? Are you willing to try to turn up the appreciation & hold the requests for one month? one week?

Hugs,
-H2H

I know you don't want to hear it and I'm pretty sure you don't believe it either but I've gone more than a week...more than a month...without making any requests..without making any complaints...without grouching, pouting, being frustrated, complimenting him etc. and as I've said before what it get's me is a happy h who's needs are met..but it does nothing for my needs. There are only so many of my own needs that I can meet without h's help..sure I can fill my need for social activity by making plans with friends and going places...to an extent I can fill my need for affection by hugging my children...BUT I can't go out and fill my need for affection/attention from a man and not be doing something wrong.

h went to a friends house yesterday afternoon to watch football...he called @ 9pm to tell me he may or may not come home...I didn't complain...didn't question nag etc. It's now noon and I haven't heard from him since last night at 9pm...pretty sure I wont hear from him until @ 6:30 pm or so tonight when he's on his way home if he even calls...will I complain? nope...I'll be out trick or treating with the kids and then taking them to a local farm to see a pumpkin lighting (they carve and light all the pumpkins that don't sell..could be 100 or more pumpkins all lit up pretty cool)...we'll (the kids and I) then come home probably to find h asleep..will I bother him to help with the kids? NOPE...I'll give them their baths/showers, read them their stories, make sure they brush their teeth, kiss them good night and then go about my business (either read a book, go to bed early or watch some tv).

LL

I should add to that in the past I defended h's lack of time for us plenty.

even to his own family (bil, sil, bils w) they all thought we should have more of a life...I always told them he works hard so we can have the things we do...so we can have them over for cookouts and not have to worry about paying for the food. I appreciate all that but it's not enough and I can't pretend it is anymore. I was proven a fool for trying to believe h was just a workaholic and didn't need a r, affection, attention, I was a fool to have accepted "that's just the way I am" it's not! if it was he wouldn't have needed a r with ow would he?

I appreciate him...I thank him for what he does...I compliment the yard all the time...I pass on compliments from others.

I let him know when he's done or is doing something I like.

I'm not at all saying I'm the perfect wife...I don't think such a thing exists but he'd probably tell you himself that he's got it pretty damn good.

LL

Hmmmm, I guess that would be a no . . . been there/done that.

OK, before I leap into suggesting more stuff you've already done. Let me ask you this: What do you think were the reasons for H. having an A.? Not to dig up old painful crap, but if you can figure out what might have been the cirucumstances, it might lead to figuring out how to make things better.

Another question - what happens when you DO ask H. for help with the kids? What happens when you go up to him and give him a hug? What happens if you wake him up with a big kiss?

Again, I am just trying to help . . .

-H2H

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Hmmmm, I guess that would be a no . . . been there/done that.

pretty much in some form or another over the years.

OK, before I leap into suggesting more stuff you've already done. Let me ask you this: What do you think were the reasons for H. having an A.?

h's reasoning then? "it" was just never there with us...he had spent some time with her before we got married (but were dating) stopped seeing her because we were getting married but missed that feeling so went back..the just connected...she went to "bat" for him when some other customers were threatening to hire another company over a billing dispute...she had cancer and he never really knew anyone who went through that so it drew him to her...he never really said much about her...other reasons he gave...he was stressed...we had just built a new home and were planning to have another baby (he started seeing her a 2 months after we moved in or rather after I moved us in..he wasn't even available to help with son the morning the movers came and didn't pack or unpack a single box. and 2 months before getting preg with dd)

My thoughts on why h had the A...honestly...because he wanted/needed a connection as much as I did/do but just didn't have it with me...let's face it it's easier to be honest with the person your being deceatful with than it is to be honest with the person you're deceiving...it has been made aware to me now that h was cheating on me before we married always under the guise of I can't see you tonight I need to sleep of course. And of course there's the fact that he addmitted to spending time with her before we married but stopped...an indication that it was more than a friendship then? He never fully came clean about the A then and now refuses to acknowledge that time ever happend...it's just been swept under the carpet.

Not to dig up old painful crap, but if you can figure out what might have been the cirucumstances, it might lead to figuring out how to make things better.

The circumstances that make the most sense to me are that "it" just isn't there with me but there was "something" there with her...it didn't feel like a lie or an alien speaking when h talked like that back then...of course now he doesn't say that but then again he doesn't say much of anything.

Another question - what happens when you DO ask H. for help with the kids?
I get an attitude from him. but for the most part there is no asking..he's just not home...he leaves the house at 6am doesn't return til 6:30pm or later often by the time he's home I've already given dd a bath and put her to bed...and son doesn't go to bed much after that usualy by then h is already aleep on the couch. He got caught in his A by taking ow to her cancer treatment and being seen...I went to post date preg tests alone he couldn't take the time off..granted that was during his a..but "post" A I had a problem with my eye and needed to go into boston (just like her cancer treatment) and he flat out refused to help me with the kids so I could go..I had to call on favors from friends...a bit warped don't ya think?

What happens when you go up to him and give him a hug?

I don't do that often anymore...too much rejection...on the rare occassion that I do his response is unpredictable.

What happens if you wake him up with a big kiss?

He gets pissed that I'm interupting his sleep.

Again, I am just trying to help . . .

I know that and I appreciate it...please try not to read attitude in my posts...I'm just direct.

-H2H

So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.

Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.

Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.

I put dd to bed and when I returned to get son, h had already retreated to the basement.

H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.

LL

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So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.

Ok, so that's good news, right?

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Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.

This is a great positive, no? Just in case you're going to say "but he's spending time with the kids, not me" let me say "babysteps...". Let him get comfortable, ok?

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Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.

OK, I know this is disappointing for you but I can guess at a thousand reasons why h went off and took a shower instead of helping...I'm not excusing the 2 month lag (been there, done that) but maybe the timing was really bad for fixing it THAT night? (workday, etc?) And, the whole "hint" thing would have blown up squarely in my face if I had tried that ... too P/A and vague for my h to respond to -- it would have ensured that there was no way he would help for a good long time.

What if you had asked him (in proper M&V terminology?) for his help? "Would you put the front part on the dishwasher tonight?". Or, "I'm excited that you said you'd take care of the dishwasher. Would you do it this weekend?"

I know it sounds like a lot of work to figure out HOW to ask but it may go a long way towards staving off some resentment and discontent.

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H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.

I suspect that h will continue to use the kids as a go-between until he feels comfortable again in his R with you...what can YOU do to expedite him feeling more comfortable, LL? (Yah, we could get frustrated that he's not coming around sooner, not feeling comfortable, etc, but all that's out of our control, right?). Do you think YOU'D feel comfortable if the tables were turned?

But, I understand what you're saying re. the kids and dinner since it seems to breed frustration. Is a babysitter available? Could you suggest doing something all together in the afternoon and then the two of you going out to dinner (where, I'm seriously hoping there will be no R talk!

)

Seems to me (you probably don't want to hear this) that h IS making some efforts in response to your talk last week...isn't he?

Sage

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So, now I'm pretty certain that if h is involved with an ow it isn't the ow from the past. Don't ask me how I know as it's not very db.

Ok, so that's good news, right?

it's both good and bad...bad because it doesn't explain the strange beh and signs from h..and also because if there is someone new then ow wasn't that special and h's a serial cheater. Good because I at least know it's not her.

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Since talking to h last week about us and the lack there of..he has been spending more time with the kids..last night when he got home I was going over some math/reading with son instead of h's usual dissapearance he sat with dd and looked over some of her work and quized her on her shapes.

This is a great positive, no? Just in case you're going to say "but he's spending time with the kids, not me" let me say "babysteps...". Let him get comfortable, ok?

he's been home for 3 years now...he's comfortable enough to do as he pleases...I think the problem is not that he's uncomfortable it's that he's gotten too comfortable. Plus it certainly seems to enhance my feelings that he only came home for the "family" and the "kids" now doesn't it.

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Two months (maybe longer) ago I ordered a new front for our diswasher..it had been dented and the bottom piece had fallen off. I replaced the bottom piece myself but in trying to replace the main front discovered I needed a special screwdriver...asked h to help with it..he said he'd take care of it...yesterday I made another attempt at it thinking perhaps an alan key would do it but no such luck...I made a bold move and left the new door resting in front of the diswasher...h said "is this a hint" sure he went and found the right kind of screwdriver from his toolbox but that was the end of that..I sat and battled with the old rusty screws cutting my hand while he went off and took a shower.

OK, I know this is disappointing for you but I can guess at a thousand reasons why h went off and took a shower instead of helping...I'm not excusing the 2 month lag (been there, done that) but maybe the timing was really bad for fixing it THAT night? (workday, etc?)

it's never a good time that's the problem...I can ask..wait...ask again and eventually I have to end up doing it myself.

And, the whole "hint" thing would have blown up squarely in my face if I had tried that ... too P/A and vague for my h to respond to -- it would have ensured that there was no way he would help for a good long time.

well it worked for me...though h didn't do the job he at least got me the tool to do the job with.

What if you had asked him (in proper M&V terminology?) for his help? "Would you put the front part on the dishwasher tonight?". Or, "I'm excited that you said you'd take care of the dishwasher. Would you do it this weekend?"

two months would have gone by..I'd try to do it myself again....I'd leave it there waiting for him and I'd still end up the one doing it.

I know it sounds like a lot of work to figure out HOW to ask but it may go a long way towards staving off some resentment and discontent.

it's not a lot of work...it just doesn't work.

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H has been suggesting taking the kids out to eat on Saturday. I understand that's a good thing as family time is important but it doesn't help the cause.

If we are always going to use the children as a buffer where is it going to get us...plus going to a resteraunt with h and the kids is not going to bring us closer it pushes us apart. H doesn't spend enough time with them to realize and accept that they aren't mini adults..they are kids and it's unlikely that they'll sit perfectly still and upright at a table in a resteraunt for a 1/2 hr waiting for their food...so he gets frustrated with them and I then get frustrated with him.

I suspect that h will continue to use the kids as a go-between until he feels comfortable again in his R with you...what can YOU do to expedite him feeling more comfortable, LL? (Yah, we could get frustrated that he's not coming around sooner, not feeling comfortable, etc, but all that's out of our control, right?). Do you think YOU'D feel comfortable if the tables were turned?

I wouldn't have let things get to the point they are...I'm not the one who's backed away.

But, I understand what you're saying re. the kids and dinner since it seems to breed frustration. Is a babysitter available? Could you suggest doing something all together in the afternoon and then the two of you going out to dinner (where, I'm seriously hoping there will be no R talk! )

I'm tired of making the suggestions...plus don't you realize that by making that request I'd be taking control away from him...shooting down HIS plans.

Seems to me (you probably don't want to hear this) that h IS making some efforts in response to your talk last week...isn't he?

Seems to me (and I know you don't want to hear this) that the only effort h is making in response to my talk with him last week is to reinforce my feelings that he's not here for a r with me...he's here for the kids.

Sage

if you know that you need xy and z to feel loved by your partner and they give you abc and expect you to be happy with it even though they know you need xyz what can you do?

when getting those needs met elsewhere is counterproductive (what good would it do my m to spend more social time with friends/family or find other people to fill my need for physical affection)

pretend that ab and c are enough? get put on medication to dull my desire for xyz (become a stepford wife, content that my h's needs are met and oblivious or accepting of the fact that my basic needs aren't)

continue to try and hear/feel xyz when I get abc (in other words deny my true feelings in hopes that they'll go away or some day I'll actually get xyz from an abc man)

leave and face not only not getting xyz needs met but also not having abc.

waiste more time trying to figure out why h so refuses to try xyz. (xyz is nothing kinky...just some qt and a little pa)

why am I continously made to feel like the villian for not being satisfied with abc. Abc is not enough and I shouldn't have to pretend it is.

would you hear a babies cry for food but choose to change their diaper instead becasue that's the way you show love?

If you expect your lawn to grow nice and green you've got to fertalize it and water it, not spray grape juice on it daily and sprinkle gumdrops on it twice a year...why would you think a relationship could grow healthy and strong without the things it needs.

LL

xyz= quality time (as little as an hour a night would be a great start), physical affection (a bit more than a peck hello and goodbye would probably make me melt at this point)

abc= pay the bills, cut the lawn

LL -
are you speaking HIS love languages?

Ellie

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LL -
are you speaking HIS love languages?

Ellie

YES and I'm sick of it getting me nothing but a man who's happy to have his needs met while using "that's just the way I am" "that's what I bring to the table" "maybe you can find better out there" "I'm doing the best I can" "well that sux" "I show love in my own way" as his excuse for not attempting to speak mine.

LL

Hey LL,

My sister is in a relationship similar to yours except he's verbally abusive rather than emotionally abusive...as if either is fine (sorry).

Well it sounds as if you need to decide how long to stay with him in order to become finacially capable of leaving. I would suggest getting to a place where you can leave and get to where you have $ to support the kids on your own, put them in a good daycare and have a good place to live.

I can tell from your post that the m is not where you want to be...right? Can you picture yourself d'd, sharing custody, working, dropping off the kids at daycare, working late to pay the bill, maybe not getting the support you need from him etc..? I gather from your earlier posts that you've been at that point...can you deal with that kind of life?

If you want out, then start planning now to support yourself and the kids, get your ducks in a row and go.

No one here can force you stay or go...we only ask that you consider all the options involved with the d side and make the well informed decision. Some times it is better to go with the lesser of the 2 evils (staying married for the sake of the kids and financial support) rather than put yourself in a position where you can't afford to feed and clothe your kids. At least if you stay m you can live like you want like stay home, care for the kids, have your book club, etc...you know you only have to stay with h until the kids leave the home for lives of their own. You should decide where you want to go, be and do what you need to get there. What makes you happy? Certainly at this point it's not your m, so go and start building the foundation for your life as a single parent.

Either way..m or d you have the strength...i can tell after reading of the emotional abusive you've stood for so many years. What keeps you in your m? Is it the belief that your man will change? Why are you there?

C

I'm with Cindy.

If only for curiousity I would track down first affair woman and find out what he was like with her. I'm just so curious why he married you when, it, wasn't there and he could have had her???

But, if you don't care about the curiousity, then I would decide if you want to stay in the marriage simply for economic reasons and for the kids.

In that case I would find a lover of my own,

put money away for the day the kids are out.

Your H sounds like a narcissist. Here's some links:
http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/

I also would get a PI and find out what he does during the day.

I know none of these are standard dbusting...but they are 180's aren't they?

Lost Love,

any updates?

Your situation is one I think of often. I really hope for good things for you. You deserve them!

hey whitelight,

thanks for thinking of me...I don't get much response in this forum so I've been allowing myself to be beaten up in the infidelity forum

take a look if you like

drowning in it

I did a little research into narcissism and though h does display many of the charectoristics I don't like to put people into boxes...helpful to have an idea of the what, why and how possibly to deal with but can't be sure as I'm not in a position to diagnose.

LL