Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: debcb Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 08/26/04 02:42 PM
I'm sure the old thread is about to lock, so I'll try to get this one up and going, seems like I might need it today.Link to old thread here, I hope:http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=752224&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
that link obviously didnt work, don't know what I'm doing wrong, so here goes again: Old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=752224&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
to kind of keep on track, I thought I'd post my recap of last nights crap here:
bad, bad night last night. My eyes are so swollen from crying that I look like an alien this morning. How's that for bad dbing? I'm just in la la land trying to think what to do next, I guess I should start a new thread here for one thing.
I feel like all this has been for nothing, nothing has changed with H, only that I'm more vulnerable now in many ways. Damn, there come the tears again.

H and I didnt feel well last night, went to bed early, he said "I'll be back in a minute" and left the room. 45 minutes later, I realized the house was dark and H was nowhere around....S had gone to bed and turned off the lights....I got up, went downstairs, and H was on phone with the b---h in the basement. When he came up, I told him I didn't appreciate the lies and deceptions and have had just about enough.....lost my temper and asked him if he and Donna got their plans made, where would they meet tomorrow night when he takes his "long walk" and would it be Saturday or Sunday this weekend.....not good, I know.
He was mad that all the lights were turned off on him (?????) and that I was "Hawk eyeing" him ....which of course means that I'm supposed to avoid going anywhere or doing anything in my own home that may bring his activities into the light of day....
Went back to bed, of course he's mad because this is all my fault, I drove him to it, blah blah blah blah....I confronted him with my knowledge that he didnt' go to his uncles funeral, that he goes to OW's everyweek end when he's supposedly "working".....he didnt deny any of it. Said I was being "venemous"????????? and that showed him that everything I'd done was "just a fake".....I asked what I was doing that was venemous, evidently bringing the matter up when it's right before my eyes and shedding tears are what he was referring to....
He said he just gets to thinking " wow this could really be great and then everytime you do this".....It occured to me that I am no longer willing to accept the blame for the poor choices he makes, I've worked very hard to do what I can in this R, and it REALLY feels like he's just been stringing me along. I told him I do have an STD...bad dbing, (many threads back, I got the joy of dealing with HPV).....he didnt say a word. I've been keeping quiet about it, not wanting to have it influence what he does.
He made a comment that he should go to her house "now"....I told him to go if that's where he wants to be. Told him I have a real hard time comprehending how such a wonderful person and relationship as he has w/OW could turn him into such a deceitful liar....he said if I thought he thought things were great with her, I was wrong, that they werent, but he was so miserable and depressed with me before that he can't let her go.?????????WTF??????
I've been struggling in the back of my mind all week with the pain of giving up on this M, which frankly is about where I'm at, thinking what steps I need to take first to take care of myself, and really questioning if I truely want to be married to this person. I still love him, I don't doube that, and that makes it that much harder. I cried alot as this all hit me for the thousandth time.
turned away and just cried. later he put his arm around me, then initiated ML....he always does that after one of these episodes, I have no clue why, and he's always, and was last night very tender. I guess I go along to get my mind off of stuff, but maybe I'll have to give that up.

this morning he was up of course to talk w/OW, brought me coffee, said I love you....
I made some comment about that I've always thought we could make things really good, and he said "I'd love to talk about this but I have to go to the bathroom"....I told him "go", and left myself....sure he'd love to talk about it....his way of dealing with everything is to have his head so far into the sand he cant even start to pull it out, and I'm supposed to just go on playing the happy fool through all this? I havent talked to him since then, I put his lunch out, waited on the porch with S for the School bus, and then left for work.

I saw OW got to work early this morning, which is very unusual..........

I'm trying to think what to do next....
--I have the letter I wrote, I guess I'll read through it and edit and go ahead and give it to him, just so I know I've said that to him in plain english/black and white.
--I'm in no position financially to leave right now, but I guess I'll start thinking about what I need to do that....
--I need to find out more about divorce laws and about annulments....guess I need to make and appointment with an attorney and one with a priest....
--I need to find out about weight watchers meetings, I think they would help me
--I need to make plans for something fun for the weekend, maybe S and I will take off for the lake when H takes off.
--I really want to get a new bike, not sure if I should buy one yet or not, we've had such a financial mess (Oh, yeah, he brought up last night about that mess, and how I spend all his money. This from a guy who never balanced a check book before we got married and sure hasnt done it since...)
guess maybe i need to figure out a budget plan for doing that and wait a little..
--I'm going to call today and drop the 888 number we have at home. I got it for the kids, but they don't use it and i think that's one way OW calls, don't know why I should enable/make it easy
--I'm going to call and drop all the cell phones from the plan except H's, see if I can have the bill moved from my name to his. That will probably save 70 bucks a month, and I'll just get myself a prepaid one, I pretty much only use mine for emergencies anyway. That way I don't have to have that rubbed in my face all the time (still hurts, the whole shebang was a father's day gift I got him one year, feels like another betrayal that he uses my gift to plan and sneak with OW.
I'm not sure what else I need to do .....cant think real straight right now.......???????
I still have more tears to cry.......
I have no clue how to db from here on out or if it's even worth trying.
Oh yeah, one more thing to put on my list is to get to work checking into grad schools, I've only done it in fits and starts, tiny ones at that, because I don't know what I want to do.
























































I wanted to copy this post from Sage here so I can find it easily to "ponder" more
Quote:

My two cents?

Say "thanks for your note. My leg is ....(fill in the blank)"

Not bitchy in any way but just answering at face value...I wouldn't suggest getting involved in more R talks over email (again, JMHO).

I'm sorry you're going thru this and for the roughness of the night...to continue to offer up my Opinion

I'd pull out your copy of DR -- not to "save your M" but because it's just darned good reading.

I'd not make any sudden moves and that includes rushing into R talks (tho' apply the details of your own sitch here, obviously! seems as though you're both in heighted emotion mode right now and that's a good time (ha) to say things that get "regretted")

I would make 3 simple short term goals for yourself to keep you focused...1 for YOU (you mentioned WW, maybe that's it), 1 just for fun (go have a massage, whatever) and 1 to continue addressing your highest priority issue in your m that YOU control (what was the most pointed thing that h threw at you last night?) -- again -- this isn't to SAVE anything per se, it's to keep you moving forward because I personally think it makes a person feel good to address issues. (maybe that's just me)

And here's the hardest one...I would drop the rope completely about OW...I think you've been doing a great job with the tangible side of this but your posts still seem SO FOCUSED on her...what time she comes into work, etc -- even before last night -- DROP IT -- STOP thinking about her -- you are wasting precious energy on someone and something you cannot control right now..

Now, I'm not suggesting for a minute that you should have to live in a M with an OW but deb, all the angst in the world isn't helping and it just seems like it's torquing you up.

FOCUS ON YOU, YOU, YOU...turn all of your energy inward right now.

My two cents.

Sage




also wanted to copy this from dfb for reference
Deb - you need to take care of you! Plus, how about you start getting up and making phone calls to friends and such? Let him wonder what you are doing! Go out, have fun, and just leave him in the dust for now. Go to Weight Watchers, go to the Y, take up bowling or something. Do things that make you happy, okay? Because this isn't.

He is blaming you, and you aren't the problem. He has to work this out himself, you cannot make him do that. Last year I'd have loved to have sabatoged BF's R with ex-OW, but I didn't. Now, I did pursue him - but I didn't tell her anything that we were doing. It has to be on your H's time, and it HAS to be his choice. It is your choice to either put up with it or not, and I'd understand if you chose not to deal with the crap anymore. But if you try to end it yourself, he may blame you later.
I don't know how wise it is, but if it works I guess it works. Weird, but H & I have had an email conversation this morning.I know Sage, that's against your advice...and I usually follow that kind of a suggestion to a "T" but it's almost like all this pent-up stuff came pouring out...more from him than I usually get, and I felt like I could say what I thought with out getting upset. I've been observing our responses to each other from an emotional view point. I see him coming close when I back up...he actually kind of hung in there today and we discussed communication issues.

I responded to his first email, about not getting to say good bye, pretty much in line with Sage's suggestion:
"thanks for the note, I appreciate it. Hope your day goes well, too. The leg is about the same, maybe not as sore."
his response was a surprise, 3 words:
WHY SO COLD? (certainly got his attention)
I replied that I was having a tough time not being emotional, and he wrote back that he understood. he replied that it made sense and he was sorry, I did say ILY (I know, 2x4) and then got this reply.
Quote:

I LOVE YOU TOO. I don't know what happened for those 10 long years, but it was so great in the beginning and it has been so much better for the past 6 months. Please just hang in there today. DB




I know not to get my hopes up, but it does give me a glimmer of encouragement that he admitted it WAS great (used to say it was a mistake we ever got married, it was just a rebound thing) and to hear him acknowledge that things have been so much better in the last 6 months is so helpful. Frankly it affirms that my perceptions and instincts are not "whacko" and I have been doing some things right, and he has noticed and liked the changes. for him to admit things have been better feels huge. he's NEVER done that before. Could be he's just stringing me along, but we had a discussion we've never had before about emotions and honesty and he can't understand the no ILY guideline, and thinks that's part of what got us into trouble, and he doesnt like it when I pull back and withdraw emotionally....actually said those exact words, "I don't like it when" that is helpful...I can work with knowing what doesnt work just as well as what does....and I can look for new ways that are better, although that will be hard, because I think this is a long-standing pattern of behavior.
It was kind of exciting to be able to have this kind of "real" discussion, even if it was by email
Hi Deb - I'm sorry this roller coaster is still all over the place. Sweetie, you may want to back off for a while, have zero expectations and just re-group.
Quote:

I've been observing our responses to each other from an emotional view point. I see him coming close when I back up...he actually kind of hung in there today and we discussed communication issues.



Sounds like you have found what works, and it has the benefit of giving you time to think and research your options. Please remember to be kind to yourself.

And yes, this is hard, and the longer it goes on, the harder it gets. Even when it is over, it is not quite over. Last night, I saw NG re-reading the parting email he sent OW - it was so tempting to ask him why, but I just went on with my own stuff. He appreciated the space. But Deb, it was soooo hard not to ask.

You can do this. You can figure out what is best for you. Slowly
Posted By: sage Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 08/27/04 11:39 AM
Quote:

I don't know how wise it is, but if it works I guess it works. Weird, but H & I have had an email conversation this morning.I know Sage, that's against your advice...and I usually follow that kind of a suggestion to a "T" but it's almost like all this pent-up stuff came pouring out...more from him than I usually get, and I felt like I could say what I thought with out getting upset. I've been observing our responses to each other from an emotional view point. I see him coming close when I back up...he actually kind of hung in there today and we discussed communication issues.





Deb -- It IS wise if it works

Sounds like you DB'd perfectly...responding to the changing sitch ... also, you gave your h the opportunity to ASK you what was going on (instead of telling him in response to his question about your leg)...I think you said it yourself...you see him moving closer to you when you back off -- that's a really good observation for you and your sitch!

Sounds like you both did great

Sage
Deb,

I've been thinkin about ya while I was away from the board this past week.

To borrow some words from my now deceased grandma, it "gripes my fanny" that your H is still blaming you for his failures, namely not making the break from OW. It makes me mad that he puts this off on you with the lines like "you had this won" or calling your changes "fake."

You are a saint for putting up with him and I'd like to slap him for not getting the fact that you can only do so much without reciprocity on his part.

Any chance that you could go for counseling in another town?

Keep the faith. I don't know what it will finally take to open his eyes, all I know is that he has to do it for himself.

God bless,
Pam
Hi Pam, It's good to hear from you....I was wondering how you were doing and what was going on...I gotta get over and see what's up with you.

Your grandma must have known my grandma (one of them!) She used that same expression, and believe me would be saying it REALLY gripes her fanny, and she'd have either a) gave him a "good piece of my mind" (another expression of her's) or B) made him wish she'd just slap him silly and get it over with (she was Irish through and through) ah, well, I guess I can at least chuckle today. Interesting weekend, I'll post in a minute about it....I don't know, as ever, what to think, so I try to not think to much ( another piece of advice from my grandmother)
Sage, If you read this, I believe I recall you posted on my earlier thread that you pursued your H....In what way did you pursue him?
This past weekend was odd, good I guess, nice, certainly, but I have learned that reading too much into things only sets me up for disappointment, so I am very cautious.

Just to recap, Thursday was a really bad day for me, H was on phone w/OW when I went to bed early Wednesday night, and I "sorta" lost it....actually I thought I did a pretty good job of expressing my frustration without being accusing, but of course he got mad and I cried....that's the "losing it part....then Thursday we had an email conversation and I got this response from him "I LOVE YOU TOO. I don't know what happened for those 10 long years, but it was so great in the beginning and it has been so much better for the past 6 months. Please just hang in there today." He promised to be home by 8:30 from his long walk that night so we could have some time...he actually got home about 10 after 8 just after me. asked if I wanted to watch some tv or something, so we did, in our usual spots and then he said "I'll sit there with you if you'd like" (on the couch)...of course I liked! so he came and sat with his arm around my shoulder for the evening. We ML Friday, Saturday AM he left for "work", before he left I hugged him and told him I treasured him, and he pulled me close and held me and said "you're my treasure too".....I swear, he sounds so sincere. He got home about 1, complaining he didnt feel well, I put my arms around him for a hug, whispered in his ear that was because he wasnt spending enough "good lovin" time with me...he held me tight again and whispered in my ear "you're absolutely right". Saturday evening it was so pretty, and he asked if I wanted to sit on the porch for a while, so we sat in the swing and just talked for a while. Saturday night when we went to bed, I gave him the 9 page letter I've worked on writing for months and carried around and debated about giving him...I intended to post it here and just wound up giving it to him. I don't think it was bad though, and one reason I held off giving it to him was I wanted to make sure that my expectations were low....I didn't want to expect any results from his response. I finally decided that my goal was to express some of my conclusions from my personal "soul searching" and what I intend to do with my life, so I wnet ahead and did it. I told him I could see some of the reasons in our marriage that might have led him to see an A as the best way to ease his pain, some reasons that I could see we had both kind let things get to that point, and that I intend to never go back to being as miserable as I was....his hands shook some as he read it, and he said "well, thank you" and carefully put all the pages back together....no ML Saturday or Sunday , said his back hurt on Sunday from mowing on Sat., but we sat on the porch and grilled steaks and talked. H was talking about what we would need to do to get the camper back on the road, and how he wants to get into weight lifting/body building big time, and we need to get back to getting his weight room going, and asked if I thought we could still get reservations for a short trip to "our cabin" this fall. both of these last 2 he's been kind of let go by the wayside lately, so I've just let it drop. But I don't know, and am very cautious with expectations, but it seems like maybe he moved closer again. S had a friend over Friday night and spent the night with the friend on Sat. so was "busy", at one point he was standing in the kitchen and was staring at me with huge eyes....I asked if it was my imagination or if his dad seemed "warmer" and he said "MUCH! Where do you think these dinner plate eyes came from?"... I only heard from him by email 2X today, but in one of them he said he loves to hear from me.

So I don't know, SO MANY times it's look like things were in the home stretch and then he runs back to ow, but still I think these are hopeful signs.

I am trying to focus on more of what I need to do...that is tricky, because I'm so used to taking care of everybody else. I've found out about ww meetings, and am trying to decide which might work into my schedule, and am really focused on getting things organized/redone in the house...also redoing some chairs for D and SIL....I splurged and bought a small but nice stereo system for in our bedroom this weekend, and spent more money than I should on candles...(I'm still working on that decorating project) so I'm not sitting around pining for him and wringing my hands but I'm still not at the point where I don't care what happens.

Frankly I'm kind of encouraged by his response to the letter, I was honest about my thoughts, feelings, wishes and intentions, and I was afraid it would cause him to withdraw, but it doesnt seem to have. I told him it was frightening to share that with him....so we shall see.....at least he knows my "take" on the sitch.

any thoughts on what to do now/next?
Posted By: debcb A question for Penthesilea - 08/30/04 08:25 PM
Hi Pen, I don't think we've ever posted to each other and I havent been able to locate your threads, so I'm being very presumptous here, but....
I know on Slowly's thread that you mentioned how you would respond to the email her H sent as a former OW....

I know every sitch is different, but when you were OW, how would you have responded to getting a letter saying that things in the A currently werent meeting his needs that included a list of things that needed to improve? on the list were sex, compassion, not holding grudges, seeing things from others point of view, apologize, see your part, need for reciprocity in the relationship and an explanation of what that is, and several others...

I hope you don't mind my asking, I'm just really curious ( I found this handwritten list on my husbands dresser about a month ago after one of his sleepless nights)
Deb, so rarely do A's have a clear-cut ending. I do think, like you, that your H is working his way back to you. I see more positives than negatives...especially now. Just keep doing what works, and you will be fine.

I know it takes a while for these things to end. It sucks, but you have to let him go through the process, or he will always feel unresolved.
Hi Nevanna, thanks so much for your input, I've not been at all good about posting to you, but I do lurk on your thread sometimes...I'll try to do better! It helps to know you see positives. sometimes I "feel" them and then it seems like it's back to "square one" or even further back, and I get so frustrated. I don't know, it is big for him to sit beside me on the couch with his arm around me, and propose "little things" like sitting on the porch. I don't think he's done this since we were dating. It's interesting though, he seems almost kind of timid about suggesting these things. I LOVE them, and I always make sure I tell him how much I like them....my theory has always been that behavior that's rewarded is repeated, so I guess I'm putting that theory to the test.
It just seems to take forever though. Can you believe I used to be less patient than I am now?
thinking, thinking, thinking, always thinking on this stuff. It occurred to me that "pursuit" to a certain extent seems to be a very effective technique with H right now, in fact it seems to be the only thing that has really positive results....I don't know if I posted last thursday, but I got an email from him that said "I don't like it when you pull back and withdraw"...

It's occurred to me yesterday and this morning that I HAVE always been somewhat distant, because I thought that was the way I "should" be (not sure where I got that idea), but also I really thought that was what H preferred. At the same time, I truely believe now that H NEEDS lots of displays of affection and verbal affirmation....he would never ever admit it or let on, but from the way he responds, I've come to believe that he must be/have been feeling really empty and alone inside, and that's how OW got her shot at him. I'm convinced some of this, much of it in fact, comes from his childhood. His parents are well-meaning, but terribly judgemental and "cold" towards their boy children, not to mention being intrusive. So here we have arrived at this mess, not because we didnt love each other, but because we didnt understand each others needs and were afraid to really push/explore....so we just pulled back and retreated and became more and more miserable and distant and hurt and vulnerable. Sad
Interesting that this seems so crystal clear to me this morning and it has taken me so long to get to this point of being able to see it. I feel in my gut that this is right, though.
This morning was so interesting...

I was sound asleep, and heard H exclaim "oh crap" and he jumped out of bed and ran, I think, into the bathroom...woke me up, I was thinking "WTF????" well it seems the alarm he sets to go off at 5:15 so he can call OW didnt go off ( I DID NOT sabotage it, I SWEAR on the Bible!) and he told me later the clock said 7:45 and he ran into the bathroom so he could see his watch...it was actually 5:45. I don't think he had time to call OW, if he did it was very short, like about 2 minutes!!!!!! wonder what she thinks of that?

I stumbled into the bathroom kind of disoriented, H said he forgot my coffee, should he go get it? I told him it was ok, I'd get some in a bit....and bless his heart, about 2 minutes later he stopped in the middled of shaving, with shaving cream on 1/2 his face still, went downstairs and brought me a nice mug of fresh, steamy coffee. I was so touched, I saw that as a real act of love, and told him thanks, that was a very loving thing, and hugged him.

Last night I was "hit" by the thought of how terribly down and discouraged and alone and depressed he must have been when I was so distant. Before I left for work, I hugged him close, told him I loved him and that I've been such a fool...he hugged back and said he had also been a fool....then he suggested we would need to find some "naughty time tonight"...told him it works for me.

I don't know, I keep reminding myself "no expectations, no expectations, don't believe what he says", but it FEELS like we are inching closer together in the teeniest tiniest increments. I believe we are both terrified of being hurt again so badly by the other.

I told him last night I was working on another letter, and he told me he loves to get them.....I never would have guessed that, ever, after all these years.

I think it was PSLuke who mentioned she'd thought of trying to be the OW, so I'm thinking really hard along the lines of how i might start to do that, how I might romance him a little at a time. He really seems to crave it. so weird.
weird, weird, weird, weird. Who would EVER think that an almost 50 year old guy would crave "romantic" attention from a woman????? It seems so juvenile, except, I don't believe he has ever gotten it in his life EXCEPT a tiny bit from me when we were first together, and of course from OW, who picked up on this unrecognized need and REALLY dished it out! H never dated much, because it was something his family really looked down on for guys and worked hard to "squelch". This seems so adolescent because it is. He missed out on those experiences at the developmentally appropriate time and that's why he's so driven now by this need.
OK, not a problem, I can do this and have fun doing it, especially when it seems to get such positive results. Why the heck did it take me so long to figure this out? Lord, the pain and misery we would have all been spared if I had.

And, H doesnt know how to ask for what he needs, he never learned that either. I don't think I did either. So it's almost like we are just beginning to make the effort to learn to know each other all over again. I really do believe he is making the effort, his steps are just so tiny you could miss them if you didnt look hard. When he asked me if I wanted to set on the porch swing Saturday, he had first asked if I was finished working outside and he should lock the door????? I said something about no, I was going to go work some more....some how it got the the point of one of us saying it was such a pretty evening we should go enjoy, and H said "I was going to ask that but I thought you were busy so I would just stay in and out of your way "...then he asked if I would like to go swing, and of course there's little I would like better....So I see we have been missing each others cues for YEARS.......

Does any of this make any sense?
Of course then I remember a post someone made to me months ago about that we can't "love them out" of the MLC or mess their in.....and I confuse myself.


I guess the important thing is to try it with eyes wide open and see what works...do what works and stop what doesnt work. Obviously being the cool strong, distant type hasnt worked with H....down deep I don't think that's the "real me" either....I've just learned to be that way to try to avoid being hurt.

Maybe we can sometimes "love them out of it" if that's where the problem originated?
Quote:

At the same time, I truely believe now that H NEEDS lots of displays of affection and verbal affirmation....




That's my H as well. I learned early on in my DBing that the H loved hearing ILY and getting gifts.

Quote:

I was sound asleep, and heard H exclaim "oh crap" and he jumped out of bed and ran, I think, into the bathroom...




LOL!! Sorry, this is just too funny...

Quote:

I believe we are both terrified of being hurt again so badly by the other.




Yes. My H has said as much on more than one occasion. He's amazingly vocal for a WAH.

Quote:

Does any of this make any sense?




Yes...reminds me a lot of my own H...

I don't believe he ever got appropriate attention from his family. He pathologically avoids criticism, and seeks out any and all company he sees as being "on his side"--anybody who builds him up or makes him feel good about himself.
Posted By: sage Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 08/31/04 04:34 PM
Quote:

Sage, If you read this, I believe I recall you posted on my earlier thread that you pursued your H....In what way did you pursue him?




Deb -- Well, first off, early on in DB days I definitely didn't pursue h (back when he was unsure about whether or not to stay in the M) but I was OPEN to being around him and didn't aggressively use the DB tactic of "getting a life" since part of the problem was that I HAD a VERY ACTIVE life that had little or nothing to do with my h or M...

But, I'd say that you're we're both past that phase now, right? so a bit of pursuit ....

Early days I brought home videos or DVDs that I knew he would be interested in -- I'd ask if he wanted to watch with me.

I snuggled up and watched the stuff that he was watching on TV -- even if it wasn't normally something that interested me

Same with reading stuff on-line or in the paper -- showed a real interest in the things that he was interested in.

VERY slowly asked him out on a date...by planning someplace for dinner or a movie that I knew he would like

Would make sure that the food he liked was stocked in the fridge!

Would celebrate a special occasion with champagne (or a fancy beer!)

Etc.

The key for me was showing 100% enthusiasm for his interests and being focused when he was talking.

ONE thing that is CRITICAL is to NOT overdo this -- I think you are as high energy as I am and it's VERY easy to get sucked into planning EVERYTHING (that will take the wind our of his sails!) -- so plan things but only half as often as you might want -- but do it with 100% enthusiasm!

Sage
Oh Deb,

I have to confess that reading your thread makes me wistfully yearn for the days when it seemed like my H and I were moving closer together and not further apart. Hard to believe that was just a month ago.

You are singing my song about distance that was created in a marriage through mis cues and poor communication. I can remember H even saying "you never want to listen to me talk about work." And then a few months later he would say "I don't tell you stuff about work becuz I don't want to worry you." And I thought I was listening but for some reason he didn't perceive it that way.

There were also many misunderstandings about sex I had to have things just so b4 I was even interested. I needed to feel loved to and H needed to to show his love.

And I think I thought that my H was not the type to have an A, that he was a faithful devoted family man. Esp since his dad took their family down with his own A, I thought H would never go that route.

One day I am going to start a thread devoted to people's history of infidelity in their and their spouses family of origin. I am guessing that the seed doesn't fall too far from the tree and the sociologist in me would love to find out.

Any way, it seems like you are keeping on your toes, monitoring what works and doesn't. Keep the faith.

hugs,

Pam
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/02/04 02:49 PM
Hi Deb-

It has been so long! If you remember my computer was acting up. It was so strange, I could read the BB and other sites but was unable to type ANYTHING. We thought for sure it had crashed. After many attempts to fix the damn thing it ended up that we needed a new key board. Sounds simple, I know, but the problems seemed more complex than just a keyboard...sigh. Anyway, I'm back!

So I have kept up with your thread as best I could. I am replying to this post in particular because something you wrote jumped out at me. Let's see if I can get this "quote" thing to work....

Quote:

don't know if I posted last thursday, but I got an email from him that said "I don't like it when you pull back and withdraw"...





Well, the first thing that popped into my head was....he may NOT like it but 1. doesn't mean it's not GOOD for him and 2. it does seem to get his attention, doesn't it?

Seems as if he only likes the pursuit for so long before he starts complaining about clinginess. (?) (JMHO)

Remember the idea that you are a prize to be won? Why not let him pursue you for a change? If he is wondering about you and what you are doing, it doesn't leave him as much time to think about OW.

He is definately sensitive to your moods. I remember the "why so cold" email. Try using that to your advantage.

He seems very pre-occupied with trying to please both of you in order to keep his options open. And frankly, this just burns me up! Sorry. JMHO, don't make it so incredibly easy for him.

I will stop here. I am really interested in your thoughts. And I really don't want to offend you in anyway. I think highly of you and all of your efforts to save your marriage.

Please remember YOU ARE THE PRIZE!

Dawn
Hi Dawn, It's so good to here from you....I was thinking about you a couple of days ago, wondering how you were! it's nice it's a keyboard and not something worse! I think you're right in many, many aspects of what you're saying...I gotta try to post about last night though. I was out sick yesterday and part of today and have a class to teach, so am way behind, but last night was big, I believe
thanks Nevanna, it's so helpful to know somebody else has seen things in their sitch that seem to go "against the grain" of dbing....I need to check up/catch up on you, hope to do that soon.
Sage,
Thanks for the ideas...this is a lot of what I've been doing, almost to a T, so It's great to know it's worked for someone.
The advice about doing 1/2 as much as you think of is good though, I swear I can get myself into such a whirl wind that I think I could make H want to run and hide, even in the best of times , so I need to watch that too!
Ah, Pam, we've learned so darned much the very very hard way, havent we? I still can't figure out your H's train of thought. I believe you're absolutely right though when you said (I think on your thread, havent had time to post today) that someday he'll come face to face with what he's done.
Hi Deb, something BIG last night pray tell more...
Ok, a minute to post.
H got home from work yesterday eve, and I was laying in bed cause I'd been home sick and felt LOUSY....any way, we started talking, he was warm and friendly, and I said something "mushy"...then kind of apologized for it, and he said "it's ok, I have 25 years of not hearing it to make up for, I never got to hear it"....I was shocked and went and hugged him, he hugged back, held me actually, and whispered in my ear that "that other thing is over, no going back this time"....now notice I am CALM this time, but I can't help but think H means it....he was calmer, less distressed, seemed more "at peace", "determined" with the decision? We talked a lot, he said that he had come to see that he was so infatuated with her, "just like you said"...I told him that had made him so angry I decided it was counter productive and stopped saying it, and he said "yes, but I was listening and began to look and began to see it after a while"....He said he came to see that I'm the better person who truely loves him, that everything with her had to be her way, there was no compromise, said I was a "class person (so does that mean it's good I resisted the urge to punch her lights out?)...He snickered in a naughty way and said he'd always told her that and it really used to make her PO'd...
He said he started to see her angry, personality disordered side, how she only wanted what she wanted and didn't care about what she did to anyone else to get it, didn't care how devastated other people would be as long as she got what she wanted, commented " I suppose I did seem like quite a catch after what she was used to"...
Told me how mean and nasty and angry she gets, how she has trouble bonding to people, how she would tell him they would "just leave" and go off together, it would be ok,....how he would say "no I cant do that" that he couldnt stand the thought of giving up not just our little family but our rowdy big extended families, and she would get mad about that....told me about her break up with her live-in boyfriend, (another mess), and on and on.
H said that he began to more and more want to be at home rather than with her/at her place, that that started last winter with the movie nights/fireplace and that it just grew, he realizes how good God has been to us and what a miracle it is to have made it as far as we have....

He also said the letter I gave him Saturday night was the deciding factor (I've written on it and rewritten and carried it around for months, almost threw it away) So, I guess some of the things I've done have been right....He also said he'd always wanted "us" to work out.....

I did tell H that I felt excited, that it felt like I was just REALLY getting to know him for the first time after all these years, and he commented "you probably are"....

He went for a walk, asked me when he got back if I'd written him a long letter, when I told him no but I had been working on something for him, he said he could write them to, & I told him I'd LOVE to get one....so we shall see.

Oh, he also OW was not able to understand concepts and relationships, that she wasn't able to make changes in her life, he thinks she's bright enough but she just cant "grasp it"...and that she doesnt seem to have the ablity to look at situations from outside her point of view. interesting, I guess he's REALLY noticed the changes I've tried to make, although the morphing is far from complete (never will be done, probably)

H worries about OW's D, and the environment she provides her (doesnt provide is more like it), that she's probably an unidentified gifted child who feels so lost and alone, and will end up pregnant at 14. Sad, sad situation.

So anyway, I hope and pray this is IT....someone posted on my thread once that I would "know" when it was done....I THINK I know.

I've learned so very much in this process, so much more to learn! I feel like we're maybe just now standing on the "starting line" together ready to move forward.

Pray for me, all!
Deb,
Totally, totally awesome. I hope and pray with everything that is in me that this is indeed the real deal this time, no turning back.

I am actually crying happy tears for you, no lie, I am so glad that it looks like things are working out for you two.

When your D is totally busted don't forget all your friends here on the bb. We love you and really really want this to be the real thing.

Pam

ps. Don't forget that I was the one who used to say when your H was being so weird that he was NOT going to leave you. I am glad I was right and it seems that I could read your H better than I could my own.
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/03/04 12:38 AM
Deb-

I couldn't be happier for you. I am relieved to hear you say that now you "know". Guess it's time for phase II of your efforts...only this time you won't be doing it alone. Many congrats and good thoughts coming your way!

You are still a prize and very worthy of his pursuit. Let him pursue and reward him when he does. I think it will go a long way to help him heal. (I just re-read what I wrote...jeez, I made him sound like a pet...but you know what I mean.)

Keep us posted. And, oh, WAY TO GO DEB!

Dawn
just an update, things seem to be "holding", that doesnt sound like much after just 36 hours, but H has gone back to OW so fast before, that I think it does count. One thing that's kind of weird, H is absolutely EXHAUSTED...the last 2 nights he's talked about how "hard" he's slept; last night I got home from work about 9:15, and he was in his recliner, almost asleep, just looking wiped out. very unusual. yet he doesnt have that "grief stricken" look that he has sometimes. This morning when I left for work, he was talking about how tired he was, that maybe he'd go back to bed for an hour...I told him maybe he should just crawl in and sleep as much as he needed to, and he said "maybe I will". this is VERY unusual. I hope he's not getting sick with the stuff I've got, but we thought he'd alread had it. I wonder if the exhaustion is related to the continual emotional turmoil of the A and getting to the point of deciding what to do?
Has anyone else had this experience?

We have a long weekend coming up, I'm looking forward to a little extra time off, although it will be busy.

When he told me "that other thing is over", I didn't say much. I was pretty noncommital. I am wishing now I had asked him if that means no more phone calls, etc., or what his thoughts are...he said "no going back this time"....
I am tempted to ask him what his thoughts are about this, but I wonder if I should just let it ride and take it at face value?

I feel like he's going to need a lot of support and encouragement to make it through this...i'm sure the blood sucking leech OW is not going to suddenly see the error of her ways and let him go. I'm kind of expecting her to pull out every guilt-inducing trick in the book and throw it at him. I wouldnt even be surprized if she makes some suicidal gestures. I'm thinking really hard how I can support him in his efforts so he can withstand the "onslaught". I can sure use some input here.

I asked him if I needed to be watching my back, and he said "no", but I'm not completely convinced. I say this because the woman has cold, dead, calculating "devil" eyes....I know that sounds dramatic but I don't know how else to describe it. I'm a big "eye" person, and I've never yet been led astray by the message I get in a person's eyes, I swear. And her eyes are the kind that make my blood run cold. So, I guess I will watch my back...and S's, and keep an eye on H's.

H told me OW has put herself on 40 mg. of Lexapro ( a newer antidepressaant.she gets them here at work and doesnt log them into the medication cabinet. this is a big no-no, I wont even go into the possible ramifications of this. But, I'm not sure, but I think that's a BIG dose of lexapro...Dr. tried me on 10 mg and it made me so sick we had to switch meds. My mom takes 5 mg because 10 is way to much for her. I guess what I'm getting at here is I'm thinking this woman is teetering on the edge in a lot of ways, and I'm not at all convinced she's going to go quietly.
Quote:

H is absolutely EXHAUSTED...




It's the relief. The emotional burden is gone. Makes you tired.

Quote:

When he told me "that other thing is over", I didn't say much. I was pretty noncommital. I am wishing now I had asked him if that means no more phone calls, etc., or what his thoughts are...he said "no going back this time"....
I am tempted to ask him what his thoughts are about this, but I wonder if I should just let it ride and take it at face value?





Yes. (Although it's hard!)

Quote:

I feel like he's going to need a lot of support and encouragement to make it through this...i'm sure the blood sucking leech OW is not going to suddenly see the error of her ways and let him go. I'm kind of expecting her to pull out every guilt-inducing trick in the book and throw it at him. I wouldnt even be surprized if she makes some suicidal gestures. I'm thinking really hard how I can support him in his efforts so he can withstand the "onslaught". I can sure use some input here.




I wouldn't be surprised. All you can do is be supportive, and let him handle it. I'm not sure how much you've kept up with my thread, but H's exroommate went off the deep end. (I think she's actually gone for good now!)

I had a bad gut reaction to xrm from the moment I first saw her. Something about her totally and completely creeped me out. She seemed...so...false somehow. H wouldn't tell me anything for a long time about her. I found out later, only a month after she had moved in, she started doing really weird stuff.

Anyway, I guess my point is, trust your gut about OW. (xOW?? ) I was right about xrm, it just wasn't obvious right away. (And yes, I went through a period where I had to look over my shoulder...)
Thanks Nevanna. Arent instincts weird? I guess that's one thing I have learned through all this, that they are most often reliable. I actually read on another website that part of the reason LBS's feel so blown away and "crazy" it that A's and WAS's make them doubt their instincts.

I've read some of your sitch....As I recall Xrm was doing all kinds of flying of the handle, weird accusations, etc?
I'm thinking I need to journal here to take stock of what's worked to get us this far. Hopefully this will maybe be helpful in formulating a plan to keep us going forward. Not going to do it right now though, too busy catching up at work so I can go enjoy the weekend. On the other hand, maybe that's good. Means I'm getting (have gotten????) a life...there was a time when I'd have sat here and obsessed all day and all weekend, hmmmm, unexpected progress there?
XRM...well, it's kind of funny now...she rewrote history in regards to her friendship with my H and thought they had a romantic relationship. I know this is not true, because things she said that happened couldn't have--H was with me or with his family. (I understand how she may have gotten the wrong impression...H does come across that way...) And I have literally seen her do this. He would tell me something she said, then he would tell me how she contradicted herself later.

And...things she said were completely confusing my H. She would get all nuts about him spending time with me. (She always called at some point.) She flipped out when he told her he was joining the army. Accused him of "trying to get rid of her" when he said he was going to move into his mom's save money.

She got even weirder. Told H that she knew where I lived, said "I know where she lives, I know where she sleeps." Actually yelled at him when she would see his car at my apartment. Told him that she was going to get a cat that looked like his and give it the same name. (Also thought she was going to get to keep the cats--one of which is mine!)

And then...this was when it really got strange...after we both moved--and we were reconciled--all of the sudden she wasn't "mad" at him anymore. It was like she thought they were "together" again. There was one time when she called him when he was on his way to see me at lunch, and then she got ticked at him because she said he was breaking a lunch date with her. (Keep in mind, he never made plans with her.) Then she got all crappy, said "it wasn't worth it" because he spent more time with me than her. (He was incredibly confused by the whole convo with her.) And then, a couple of days later, she had this whole "breakup" conversation with him--how it wasn't worth it, she "couldn't do it" anymore...the whole bit. (H got pretty excited then, thought she was gone...heh...)

After he moved, she kept insisting he give her directions to the house. (He refused.) She made reference to things I did with his family on the Fourth of July...when H hadn't told her. Accused me of being hostile on the phone when she called the house (MIL asked me to answer the phone)--H was standing right there when I did, so he knows what I said.

She asked for his necklace, the one he never takes off. Suggested they get matching tattoos--"as friends." She got to the point where she was calling him multiple times in a day, over and over, until he would answer the phone. She would call him in the morning and wake him up, when she knew his sleep schedule, just to "hear his voice."

Like I mentioned before, I just knew there was something "wrong" with her from the beginning. Bad vibes, bad aura, bad energy...however you want to label it. But it was there.

The whole thing was really bizarre. (I think I just gave you a rundown of all of the major stuff she's done in the last few months...LOL...) Although she never actually showed up at my place or his, and she never got anymore threatening than saying she knew where I was at...it was still not a fun experience.
that is creepy stuff, Nevana. I'm glad it's finally quieting down for you.
Me too!!

I finally feel like she actually is gone. It's an incredible sense of relief.

I found out later that H thought she was nuts about a month after she moved in. (Less than a month after that, he had decided he needed to move. Getting her out was a real process...) I asked him one day if he was being so defensive about the whole thing because he was defending her...or because was defending his decision. He looked kind of sheepish, and admitted he really was just defending his decision. (And also didn't want to tell me things while it was happening because, well, he didn't want to upset me any more--I was already not handling it well.)

Oh...I also found out xrm told H about some weird little fantasies she was having--of hanging out, going shopping, doing things with MIL. Guess that's why she called her those times. (Did I mention that she called MIL?? MIL never talked to her. Couldn't stand her, actually. )

Hope you had a good holiday weekend.
i'm so far behind, being off the bb 4 days, I'm not sure what to post. I need to post for journaling because I find I tend to forget all that transpires if I don't, there's so much going on. so, guess i'll try to just post day-by-day, and then I need advice...big time, I think.

So, lets see, Thursday, I came to owrk in afternoon and worked late, not much interaction w/H, I've been sick (sinus infection and bronchitis) and S and H have been also.Hard to feel crappy physically and deal with this other stuff. I did get an ILY email from H that day, and when I got home he was watching tv in his recliner, almost passed out, instead of lifting weights/exercising as usual.

--Friday I came work for my usualy 1/2 day, came home to lunch w/H, he wasnt feeling well still, we napped, puttered around the house. We did ML that night, but H seems kind of withdrawn, "down"

--Saturday, H is exhuasted....we take an early afternoon nap....really do sleep, I'm feeling so crappy it's probably good, but starting to feel horny. After we get up, I comment to him "you know what's going to happen before long, don't you?" he asks "what?" and I tell him "soon I'l have to rip your clothes off and have my way with you"...just joking, but WRONG thing to say at the time....he gets really upset/angry and say's "I'm NOT feeling like that now!!!". And, DUH, it dawns on me just how much he really is grieving this breakup. later I go to him and tell him that I'm sorry for being so insensitive, that I understand things are very difficult for him, and wish there was something I could do to help. Tell him ILY....he starts to get weepy and wistful and tells me that he's more sick emotionally than physically. went to inlaws for nephews b-day party, H is "grumpy" and with drawn, on the way home he talks about how aggravated he gets with them, how he's sometimes "about ready to give them up"....
Several times during the day on Saturday and Sunday, H said ILY unsolicited....H DID NOT go do "office/paper work" Saturday, never even said a word about it. So, that explains that, I was right all along, he's been going to be with her. Also, suddenly I notice in the checkbook that H's "gasoline" expenditures dropped from $100.00/week to $20. Imagine that.

--Sunday, We go to D & SIL's for supper. H is quiet, withdrawn, sad. He does his weights in the afternoon, complains of not feeling well. I come out and ask him if it's physical or emotional, he says "both", and gives me the saddest look. Later he tells me he's feeling really sad over "this break-up" and it's going to take time for him to work through it, but that he will be ok...We took a nap in the afternoon, and I'm not quite sure what to do, so I'm backed off physically from him, and he says "arent you going to hold me?" very wistfully, so of course I do hold him.

Yesterday-Monday, the flood gates are suddenly opened. S stayed allnight Sunday with a cousin, so we were freer to talk. H walked for about three hours, I asked how he was when he got home and he said "ok for as close to crying as he was"....he had no appetite....we sat and talked(he talked, I listened and tried to validate) for most of the afternoon...he talked about how he thought I didnt care and would just be glad to see him go (?????!!!???) and so he fell in love with her and it wasnt just a fling, how she had told him he had to much integrity to ever get a divorce and she admired that, how he had told her he would never leave our home/family, that he was sick of the sneaking and lying and it was making him sick, now maybe he'll get over his sinus infections, stomach upsets, etc.,; that it was not going to go anywhere so it needed to end but it was so hard, it wasnt just a fling. He talked about how he always told her about how smart I was, how much better I was at everything and that it would infuriate her (?????!!!!!WTF) and she would say "cant I be best at ANYTHING"? I didnt ask but I cant figure out why he would tell her stuff like that??????? It would sure make me mad...I guess he even told her she painted her bedroom too dark a color, and what I would say she should have painted it?????....which really didnt go over well. He told me he had always hoped we would "work out", that he wants to do things as a family and just us together, that he thinks part of what we did wrong was not enough "couple time" (I believe he's right) and that led in part to us losing track of priorities.
He put his head on my shoulder and cried numerous times....Talked about OW being a good person ( after he told me last week what a bitch she is) and how that makes the break up so much harder....He said I was right, that we had to get the other person out of the relationship to see what we have****(?????), talked about that he wants to go by ourselves to a favorite really old hotel in D's college town....how he's looking forward to our short trip the end of October...Sometime in the conversation, he said if I was going to throw him out, now was the time to do it. He also said that she became very demanding, wanting him to do things especially towards the end, that he would say "I'm not ready to do"...I was tactless and asked "what" and he was quiet, then said, "not come home, she would always say "stay, just don't go home, and other things.... which is not a good way to get me to do things". So, listening between the lines, I feel pretty sure I know what happened, OW gave him the ultimatum and it backfired. My heart is in my throat hopping he doesnt go back though. H also commented "I always came home and was always on time though" as though it's a point of pride with him???? I validated and said "yes you did, and I was always so glad you did" even though I wanted to choke him.

H actually commented "you really had an excellent strategy in this thing" (WTF?) meaning the "act as if" and backing off, the 180's, letting her be the one to make demands while I concentrated on making home "great"....he talked about that being how he knew I loved him unconditionally.

Weird thing is, I had such an overwhelming mix of emotions, I cried and cried and cried. I would have thought I would be overjoyed, which I'm happy, but I'm also very sad at his pain, terribly sorry for my part in contributing to where we got to, frightened that he will go back to her, frustrated that I can't do much to help him (he even commented that it's his grief that he'll have to work through).

D and SIL rented a movie and chips and dropped by yesterday evening (we didnt have much alone time this weekend even with S being gone some)....after the movie H just left the room and went to bed. I said good bye, saw the kids off and closed the house up, went up to bed, and H said he was sorry, but he had such a headache and was getting so tearful he just had to go to bed. I snuggled up to him and held him, and he said he liked that and it helped him.
We talked and cried quite a bit even after going to bed, I told him I wasn't sure where my tears came from, he said it was probably from being so anxious for so long, but that I didnt have to worry anymore, that we would be fine.

In the middle of the night, it was weird, I woke up and he was out of bed the hall light was on, so I knew he'd gone downstairs, I don't know how long he was gone. Maybe he was back on the phone with her, don't know what to think. he came back upstairs shortly after I woke up, got in bed, said "can I hold you for a while, I was missing you, I had a bad dream" and pulled me close. I went back to sleep with him holding me.

This morning when we went to do chores, he seemed more cheerful. After he came in the house, he went to the basement and came up with a CD. I was packing lunch in the kitchen and said "special CD?" he said "Tom Petty, I like that & thought I'd take it", went out to the garage and was gone quite a while....just unusual "stuff", and of course since my heart is in my throat, I'm so on edge.

I emailed him this morning to ask how he was as I didnt hear from him, got a response that said "oh, I'm ok" but not very enthusiastic....said our business is down, which doesnt bode well, of course. I replied and havent heard anything else.

Can some of you wise veterans help me pick out the pertinent points here?
Don't know if I'm "wise" but I'll take a crack at it...

Your H is in deep pain. He opened up to you--big time--and you did a great job of validating.

My guess is now he's crawled back up into his cave for a little while to process some more. It was a flood for him, and now he needs some alone time. It's too much to handle all at once.

BTW...haha...OW got tired of hearing about you. That's a good sign.

Oh--I keep noticing his theme of "I didn't know that you loved me." That's the reason he's citing for the affair. He responds to affection very well (but right now doesn't want the sexual understones).

I'm thinking maybe a nice e-card...maybe something with some light humor?...to let him know you're thinking of him. So he knows you care, but you're not "intruding" on his space. Or maybe a nice e-mail "I know you're having a hard time, just wanted to tell you ILY."

I don't think questioning him on his pulling back would be helpful. I did notice that he's asked you several times for comfort. Maybe you could wander by his area later and leave him a small present? Like with a cute note?
Posted By: debcb Help! What do I do now? - 09/07/04 05:15 PM
I am at a loss at to what to do now. How do I help H through his grief? How do we start to rebuild our M?

How do I deal with my anxiety that they will start up all over again? I emailed H this morning, asked how he was, he responded he was "ok", and about needing tacos for a going away lunch for his co-worker tomorrow, when I responded I said I wished I could hug him, he just responded with the # of people. that seems so cold, maybe he's just busy or preoccupied, but I'm so afraid they will get back together. Things just feel so tenuous right now.

H didnt want to ml this weekend, so I just backed off, reminding myself to be his friend. How long does this last? is this "normal"????Help!??!
Posted By: debcb Re: Help! What do I do now? - 09/07/04 05:17 PM
What will H do next? he has been so despondent and grief stricken this weekend, withdrawn. Will he become angry at me? maybe that's part of his seemingly cold response over email?
Thanks Nevanna, I think maybe we posted at the same time. This helps alot. I retrospect, it does seem like he opened up this weekend just a tiny bit at a time. So I guess the best thing is to keep being available, and willing to listen.

I am just terrified that they will get back together again. maybe not though, perhaps she truely is sick of hearing about me and has come to believe he will never leave. H never talked much about OW, I would have blown my stack if he did.

How long does it take for this intense grief to run it's course? H did eat last night, after not really eating all weekend, maybe that's a good sign.

I just wish there was something I could do "now" to get things "moving" more/again with us....but I guess patience, patience, patience?
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/07/04 05:42 PM
Hi Deb-

On a scale of 1 to wise, I'm about a 2! But here goes....

I think that your H has realized all along that this was the right (morally)thing to do. Now you need to just give him time to realize that it was a good thing to do. My advice is to be less proactive and more reactive at this stage. (More monitoring and less experimenting?)

Quote:

I'm not quite sure what to do, so I'm backed off physically from him, and he says "arent you going to hold me?" very wistfully, so of course I do hold him.





Seems to me that he is not having a problem letting you know when he needs something from you. On the other hand when you jump in head first.......

Would there be anything wrong with telling him ...."I know that you are having a hard time right now. I want to help you. Let me know what you need and I will be there for you otherwise I am going to give you some space."

Somewhere in your post I thought I read that the two of you discussed not spending quality time together. Aha! I found it...

Quote:

He told me he had always hoped we would "work out", that he wants to do things as a family and just us together, that he thinks part of what we did wrong was not enough "couple time"




And then I read this....

Quote:

D and SIL rented a movie and chips and dropped by yesterday




I would be thinking about making some plans for just the two of you.

Lastly, this jumped out at me....

Quote:

it wasnt just a fling




Okay, if he wants to think that it was true love, just let him. In time he will see the truth. I think that the fact that he talked about you all the time to the OW is proof enough of who he was really in love with.

Hang on Deb, I think that you are in for some more drama from H as he goes through this grieving process.

Dawn
Hi Dawn, I appreciate your input, and I think you rate way above a 2 in wisdom....I think you are right on target about everything you suggested, and I'm going to focus on implementing them.

You are so right about "couple time". I believe both of us have come to realize how very much we need that, and to believe that's part of how we went "astray". This past weekend was really disappointing in that we didn't get any...D and her new husband actually dropped by 2x, and we went to their place for a cook out. We may actually have to impose some limits, but we're kind of waiting to see if it doesnt settle down soon, she just got home after being gone all summer, and of course if they move 8 hours away that problem will go the other way. However, she was talking about having S come spend the weekend with them, and if she does, I'm thinking of "kidnapping" h and taking him to a hotel with a hot tub in the room....if he's not so wrapped up in grief he can't see straight.

I found it incredibly weird that he would be telling OW how I would have done things/thought she should have done them.....LOL, I think. I can't imagine why he would do that. If I was her, I would be very irritated by hearing constantly about how much better my lovers wife could do stuff....like "WTF are you doing here then?" but then, maybe she was, as he said "it used to always make her really PO'd"....I don't know why he would say it, unless it was a way to maintain some distance, or he was subconciously mulling over/comparing the two? Guess it doesnt matter, other than as a big score in the "tactless" column for him.

I'm thinking I'm going to have to keep on trying to maintain my own "life" and goals in order to keep my "self" in some state of stability to deal with this. Of course, that's a lesson I've learned at a dear price, so not one to let slide, either.
Hmmmmm, I'm just curious, any thoughts on how long I might expect this intense grief to last?

I believe the most appropriate thing to do is just to be warm and supportive as he works through it, it would seem that trying to push for "rebuilding" now would be way to soon and be likely to set us back??????

i don't think I fully comprehended how deeply he was going to grieve until now, when I actually see it.

I'm thinking I even need to be a little sensitive to his moods and tone down the cheerfulness, the " as if" outlook....seems like it would seem to him to be very insensitive for me to be all "happy" when he's hurting so badly.
Actually, I think that's called mirroring....or something like that
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/07/04 07:10 PM
Deb-

I really don't know about the length of time to grieve. How did he handle grief in other situations?

Please don't get too down about the grief. Try to remember that he is not so much grieving the loss of her (yuck) but over himself, his life, and what he has made of it.

I would try to make sure that your D can take your S for the weekend. Why not be a little deceptive and tell everyone that you and H are going out of town but instead stay home for the whole weekend? Get some steaks and beer....and relax!

Dawn
Hi Dawn, thanks...
Frankly, I've never seen him grieve as deeply/openly over anything as he is over this. I don't doubt at all that he is really struggling.

I think I will see if S can't go visit D. We may just stay home, but I kinda think even just a little change of scenery might do H a world of good, even over night. If he's still so down, I'll just do the steaks and beer and we'll sit around and talk. He seems to enjoy that as much as anything, actually. It was kind of unfortunate that all the kids came flocking home about the time the flood gates opened.
say a prayer for me all, please! I'm going to a meeting then home, havent heard much from H all day, when I did he was pretty non-chalant/unresponsive. I won't see him till almost 9 tonight, I'm so afraid he'll go back to her.

IF he doesnt though, it will be week tomorrow, and I'm sure that's the longest "break" there's been.

I might start begging God about now.....
Deb...look at it this way. He's not grieving OW, he's grieving the loss of his little fantasy land. I think that's harder than letting go of the actual person.

And you can't push it. He'll just have to go through the process at his own pace. If it makes you feel any better, I've been through two EA's--and H ended up hating both of them once he "woke up." (So I get perverse pleasure out of this...) Oh...and my H did the same thing...constantly talked about how great I was to xow (PA...xow is not xrm). Guess she actually got sick of it, and asked if they could talk about something else.

I hate this phase, to be honest with you. It sucks. You're probably going to have to hear more about how he misses her...how they did this and that together. Yuck. All I can tell you is to listen and validate. (I think that's been my whole life for the last seven months!)

But...the good news is...you get through this phase, and things get much, much better.
Hi Nevanna, thanks, yes it makes me feel better! How long did it take your H to wake up to the point of hating the OW????? I just find it weird that he'll be telling me how flawed she is one day, and then a couple of days later he'll be saying what a good person she is.

I'm curious, why the heck do you suppose they tell the OW how great we are?????? According to H, it used to INFURIATE OW. Why would you make comparisons of your lover to your spouse that you knew were going to make your lover angry? All I can figure out is that maybe it was a way of maintaining "space", or conveying the message in an indirect way that he wasnt going to commit to her.....

Thought just occured to me. Isnt "spouse" a homely word?
Quote:

How long did it take your H to wake up to the point of hating the OW?????




It was different both times. I told him once I found out about the PA, that if he wanted to be with me, he had no choice but to cut off all contact with xow. That one was painful to watch (the withdrawal). But he also "recovered" much more quickly, because he had minimal contact with her.

There was a whole lot more to that one. She really messed with his head. I think that's why he hated her so much, so fast. Once he wasn't around her, she couldn't manipulate him, and he was able to snap back into reality.

Normally I'm not the type to "excuse" that sort of behavior...or buy into the "manipulation" idea. But, again, she tapped into something in him psychologically that had him on the run. The joke on her is she thought it meant he would run to her...hah!...it just meant he wanted to run in general.

So, I think that's why he snapped out of it much more quickly.

With xrm...well...I think he saw it, but didn't believe it for awhile. I think there was this side of him that kept hoping his "friend" would come back out of the crazy lady. Even after he did really see her for her, he kept defending her...because he was defending his own actions and decisions. I'd say he only really started to quit defending xrm/his actions in the last month or so.

I can tell you there seems to be a couple of patterns that I have noticed... Part of it depends on how much contact is still going on. And another big part of it depends on how pushy and disrespectful the OP is being. Oh...and I also think it matters how long they were involved. I can't say it will take X amount of days.

I can tell you that you will hear more and more insults in regards to OW.

Quote:

I'm curious, why the heck do you suppose they tell the OW how great we are??????




I think it just goes to show where they really want to be. Like I said, H talked constantly about me to xow. Of course, he also had no clue she was interested in him--he thought she was a good friend helping him to learn how to deal with pesonal issues.

Quote:

According to H, it used to INFURIATE OW.




LOL, I just think it's funny. Just another example of why the OP should have known better.

Quote:

All I can figure out is that maybe it was a way of maintaining "space", or conveying the message in an indirect way that he wasnt going to commit to her.....




I'm guessing it's the subconcious talking. On some deeper level he knew he wasn't really going to leave you. JMHO.

I'm certain this is what it was with H and xow. He told me he never really wanted to leave, but he thought (and she convinced him) that it was the only way to "fix his problems." Probably why he came back so fast the first time.

I do know he didn't talk about me nearly as much with xrm. Actually, he told me he didn't tell her much about his personal life, period. I guess something I had said once about how affairs start stuck in his head, and he was actually trying to maintain some emotional distance there.

I know for me, what really helps is knowing that I'm not the only one who has these weird experiences. I wonder what these guys would think if they realized how they all sound exactly the same???
Last night was interesting. I was so anxious during the day, because it was H's day "here" where OW is, and I didnt hear much from him.

I think it was a good evening, though. H got home about 8:30 and was MUCH more cheerful than he has been. I asked if he was feeling better, and he answered "yes, I think so"...now the awful thing is, it scares me when he cheers up because I'm scared to death it means he's back w/OW again. We sat at the table and talked for about an hour, which was nice, one of my goals from way back. He went to change clothes and do the tread mill, and when he into the kitchen, he came to me, pulled me into his arms and hugged me, and said "I love you very much" (unsolicited). H initiated ml...I was beginning to wonder if that would ever happen again. He was enthusiastic. this morning he was cheerful and pleasant, enough so that it made me nervous. I know that's awful, but I can't seem to help it, I've had my hopes crushed so many times before. Against my better judgement, as we were hugging, I asked him if "the other thing is really over?" he said "yes, it is, why do you think it isn't?" and was just a tinge irritated. I told him I had no reason to believe it wasnt, but that I was just afraid to believe it actually was. His tone softened then, and he hugged me and said "well it is". As we were getting ready to leave for work, he again said unsolicited "I love you a lot".
I just feel so fragile right now, so frightened that my hopes will be dashed again, I don't know the answer to that.

It turns out that OW used to call him some of the names I did...Gorgeous Guy for instance, and that's why he'd get mad when I called him that. So I told him I'd have to come up with new names, and we joked about what might be available...He said "God would work fine"....I told him I was thinking more along the lines of "Hunk/Hottie", he said those were untaken by OW...so maybe it's good that we can start to joke a little about stuff. I don't know. Don't know what to think anymore.
I am thinking though that I need to start checking out the KLA forum. does it have info on "rebuilding"? I've been so focused on trying to get to this point, I've never even looked at it.
Hi Nevanna, I sure appreciate the input...it does help to know other people have seen the same weird stuff and survived. It helps a lot!
Quote:

I wonder what these guys would think if they realized how they all sound exactly the same???





OH YEAH! I've often thought the same thing! I remember one time my H saying "I guess I'm just different, I don't react like your book predicts, and this situation is so different"...and I so distinctly recall just looking at him with a slight nod to validate, and thinking to myself, O Honey, if you only knew, you are so typical I can almost predict what you will say next because every one of you sings the same exact verse of the same exact song".
Quote:

Against my better judgement, as we were hugging, I asked him if "the other thing is really over?" he said "yes, it is, why do you think it isn't?" and was just a tinge irritated. I told him I had no reason to believe it wasnt, but that I was just afraid to believe it actually was. His tone softened then, and he hugged me and said "well it is".




You might get a better response if you approach him differently. Have you tried "I'm feeling a little insecure, can I get a hug?" He might be misinterpreting you're asking him as an accusation.

Quote:

I just feel so fragile right now, so frightened that my hopes will be dashed again, I don't know the answer to that.




Time.

I know that feeling. I hate it. It does get better...the best advice I can give you is to not pressure yourself, remember to do things to help relax, and to focus on building new, good memories together.

Quote:

It turns out that OW used to call him some of the names I did...




Ick!

Quote:

...and that's why he'd get mad when I called him that.




Hm. Sounds like he doesn't like to compare you to her--that he seems to think you're in a whole different class.

Quote:

I told him I was thinking more along the lines of "Hunk/Hottie", he said those were untaken by OW...so maybe it's good that we can start to joke a little about stuff. I don't know. Don't know what to think anymore.





The joking is normal. H and I do the same thing... I think it's sort of like telling jokes at a funeral--breaks the tension. Some people deal with pain through humor.

Quote:

I am thinking though that I need to start checking out the KLA forum. does it have info on "rebuilding"? I've been so focused on trying to get to this point, I've never even looked at it.




I felt more confused and more lost after we reconciled. I had been so focussed on the goal...I had no idea what to do once I got there. I have found the KLA CD's to be helpful.

I just...took it one day at a time. Focussed on using my H's LL. And kept posting on here.
Hi Deb - Sweetie, you are doing so well. I am so proud of you. Especially as I know first hand just how HARD this is.

The KLA stuff does help - I am finding that as I re-visit Michele's advise after a few of months, I am finding new meaning. It gives the reconstruction effort additional framework.

But mostly, visiting some of the other threads here, getting input from the wise ones, in short, this BB, has been my lifeline.

Thinking of you. Slowly
Hi Nevanna and Slowly, thanks so much for stopping by. I gotta check out the KLA stuff. I know what you mean when you say you were so focused on the goal you felt lost when you reconciled....that's exactly where I'm at, kind of like "what do we/I do now"....

I also keep thinking of the movie title "waiting to exhale". That's exactly how I feel, as though I'm holding my breath to see if it's FOR REAL this time. I'm trying so hard to keep my expectations low, although I don't know what I will do if he goes back to her this time.
I want so very much to believe that what he says is true. IF it is, I can finally consider us an actual success story in the making. I guess if he's home this weekend, doesnt go to do "paper work", it will go a long way towards helping me feel better. A long, long, long way, actually.

I'm beginning, ever so cautiously and slowly, to share with him some of my deepest feelings and thoughts. so far, he seems to have responded positively beyond my wildest expectations (as in saying the 9-page letter I gave him 2 weeks ago was the "deciding factor").

I got an email from him that I'm holding "close to my heart", just hope it's truely how he feels. I'd sent him a short email asking how he was doing because I hadnt heard from him, and told him I knew I was kind of weird and all over the place right now, that a lot of that was because I was still so afraid of losing him. At the end of the email he sent was this statement:
Quote:

You don't need to fret about losing me, I love you and I'm not going nowhere. Later DB




Not the greatest grammar for someone with so many years of college, but I'll sure take the sentiment no matter how it's expressed. SURELY he wouldnt tell me that and then go back to her.
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/09/04 03:06 PM
Deb-

I laughed right out loud at the "grammar" comment. LOL

And you are right he is surely not going anywhere (or nowhere). RELAX.

Dawn
Hey Deb--I know what you mean about the fear of sharing your feelings. I know with my H, I have to let a liiiiitle bit out at a time, or he gets overwhelmed. Sometimes leaves me frustrated. But, I've learned that with him, in the end he's very supportive. It's all in my approach. I'm glad to hear that your H is receptive. That's a good sign.

Quote:

I'd sent him a short email asking how he was doing because I hadnt heard from him, and told him I knew I was kind of weird and all over the place right now, that a lot of that was because I was still so afraid of losing him.




Sounds like this may also work with your H--telling him that he's not the one making you feel uncomfortable.

This approached worked wonders with my H. Mine is sooo sensitive to criticism, that I had to make a concerted effort at responding to the positive. So I would say to him that it wasn't his fault, he was doing things great, I loved how he kept me informed on xrm, but I was feeling uneasy. That all I needed was a little reassurance. I went waaay out of my way to make sure that his telling me about xrm's activies made me feel better. (Instead of griping at him when he didn't.)

The other thing that worked with my H was telling him he was great at x or z. It was funny how, all of the sudden, he started doing more of x or z.

Wonder if these might work with your H??

Hi Dawn, I know you're right....RELAX!!!but I'm really having a hard time with that right now. Just really gun-shy, I guess. I do think he's trying to be reassuring though, since he sent me the copy of the friends email when he told me he was going out for a beer with the guys....I keep feeling if I can get a month or so down the road, I'll be better. I've lived with this hell for 11 months now, so surely I can do this. He commented last weekend that he was thinking he would do better if he could get a couple of weeks down the road from the breakup w/OW, so I guess we're thinking the same thing.
Hey Nevanna, these are good points. My H is also very sensitive to criticism, he has often taken things as criticism that I didnt intend as such, so I have to be very careful, and I hadnt thought of it before, but I bet that's a key to his response.

I'm also trying to REALLY get in the habit of appreciating the things he does that I like, and I'm starting to see them happen a little more as well.

It's interesting though, I've just realized that only now have I ever started to share with him my true, innermost feelings, no holds barred ( well, few holds barred)....never ever have I done this, and I think that's how we got to the point that we felt like the other person didn't love us anymore. How sad.

I sure would like to get a love letter from him, though.
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/09/04 07:54 PM
Deb-

No one in their right mind would blame you for being gun-shy. I guess this is where the "act as if" helps you to "fake it until you make it". Just remember that you have the benefit of KNOWING. You have always known what it is that you wanted....a healthy marriage with your H. Your H on the other hand has had the struggle. (Yeah, I know that sounds like I am sympathizing with him....NOT. Just saying that given a choice I would rather be you in this situation.)

Give him the time and space to let this settle in. He is obviously wanting that too, based on his comment about wishing it to be two weeks from now. He wants to feel better and that is such a positive sign. Wanting is step in the right direction.

I do not think that it is such a bad thing to ask him what it is that he needs from you right now. And try, try, try your best to appear confident about the situation....it might just rub off on him. (Not talking about a Mary Poppin's act, just confident.) Try not to bring up the OW right now. YOU CAN DO THIS!

Dawn
Thanks Dawn, I seem to have lost an earlier post I made in response. I'm sure trying to avoid any mention of OW...Other than I have mentioned that her having used my pet names really ticks me off....!!!!! I mean, really, how dare she!

yeah, I'm really working on the "acting confident" part....I thinks it's going to be real important. I always loved Mary Poppins as a kid though, Maybe I'll keep her in the back of my mind. !
I skipped a lunch hour meeting and went to the bookstore and spent money I shouldnt have. Ordered Silent Son and Passionate marriage, bought a book called "back from betrayal", and have read a couple of chapters, and, oh, wow, it is so much my story (other than the affluence! ) but all the signs are so similar in this womans story...there is a quote at the beginning of a chapter that I loved though: "Begin to weave and God will give you the thread"....says it's a German proverb. I may have to frame that....I really like it.

I bought Kama Sutra cards to send in H's lunch, which I've been going to do, and looked at a book called Dance Naked. I had a good laugh just picking it up, evidently it's a how-to book written by a stripper. Now this is really wild, but I may go back and actually buy it. H will be convinced that I've totally lost my mind.
gotta let the budget recover first, I did more damage in the bookstore than i should have!
Hey Deb,

Just yesterday I rec'd the books that I ordered from Rejoice Ministries, the ones about prodigals do return and when the prodigal comes home.

We'll have to do book reports.

take good care,
Pam
I am becoming hopeful that maybe I can begin to consider "us" a "success story".....

I have just been having such a difficult time accepting that H and OW are really done, afraid to let my guard down again!!!!

But, after being so sad all last week and weekend, H now seems happier and more loving than I have seen him in years. He's still not "MR ROMANCE" that I would like, but more so than he ever has been. I got home at 9 last night, and H was tired and just a little grumpy, but I swear he perked up talking to me.

I went to bed nude again (te he he, the woman who always wore flannel and granny gowns )...H was in bed with the light off when I got in, I snuggled up to him (his back was to me) and he asked if I had anything on (?????) when I said "no", he replied "really?", turned on the light, turned over and initiated ml ...so that's every other day this week, just a week ago I was afraid we would never ml again, he seemed so down and disinterested. H now snuggles against me and holds me several times in the night, which I love. It's so nice to come to that "half awake" state and realize his warm strong arms are around me, and then fall back asleep. I don't recall him doing that even when we were first married.

He is going out with some friends (male) from work this afternoon as a send-off for his best friend, who leaves for a new job today. I told him I would be semi-jealous, that I was making a big sacrific for his buddy...He actually said "I'd tell you to come on by except that he was so specific that he only wanted a few of his certain friends there. I think it's a guy deal"....I told him I knew and understood and was just giving him a bad time. He had actually forwardedt the email invitation to me yesterday, so I know this is legit. I was happy he sent me the email.

This morning I asked him, with my heart in my throat, if he would "be around tomorrow" (non-specific reference to OW/paperwork) he actually looked kind of mystified and said "yes, I should be, why?"....told him I was just wondering and hoping we could find some quiet time together since last weekend was so hectic.

So, anyway, I do believe that if he goes 3 or 4 weeks with out his Saturday "paperwork" excursions, I will begin to be much calmer. I don't know what it means, but we are starting to joke a tiny bit about OW....he will tell me a romantic term was already taken, chuckling, and I'll tell him he'll just have to wait then till I can get out the thesaurus and come up with new ones, because it ticks me off she took all the good ones and I'm not going to use the same ones, etc.
I'm not sure what to think about the joking, but it seems like maybe it's a way to begin to safely approach the issue, or he's testing the waters to see if it's really safe to be with me, that I'm not going to beat him up over it for the rest of his life. At one point that was a concern he expressed.
So much happened this weekend I need sort through it.
I'm also going to need some input on what to expect from semi-psychotic OW. It's kind of scary.

H and I were alone most of the weekend & H began to really let his guard down, and give me some insight into stuff that 's been going on. it explains some of the weirdness

Friday...At noon the phone rang and H answered, I heard him say "NO NOT NOW" in an angry voice. I knew it was OW, asked H who it was, he said it was D calling about picking up S....that didnt make sense, I checked caller ID and sure enough it was OW calling from her cell. I decided it was past time for playing games, asked H straight out why he lied to me about OW calling, he said "because I was afraid you would get mad". I asked him what she said, and he said she asked if he could talk, thus his not now reply. I told him I didnt think I could "do it" anymore if he went back to her again, and he said he isnt. I asked why she called then, and he said "I think to make trouble big time, she knows you're here now" and he seemed very irritated. I told him I just didnt think I could live with this much more, and he said "just divorce me now then"....I told him I didn't want to divorce him and he started to look tearful and hugged me.

So, we had a discussion, he said that he got an email from her Thursday at work that she had needed help with her mom Wednesday night - there's an unlisted number in caller ID, she must have tried to call him when I was at S's class, and H was out walking....

As we talked, H became irritated/angry towards her; he started to talk about that he does believe she has a big time psychiatric disorder, that he told her that and really got her angry, talked about her anger being such a predominate feature, how her mom and sister are really odd, that her BIL will have nothing to do with any of them, that her sister feels she can't have children because her marriage couldnt survive it, that OW has a brother who is a "mess" (didn't elaborate) and her B's S has a pretty good criminal record. OW is real evasive about her family, and that made H begin to wonder. H talked about how angry OW gets, and that at his suggestion she got some anger management books but "never read them"....how she would get mad when he mentioned such issues and ask "who do you think you are, Junior Therapist"...to which he would tell her, "Acutally I KNOW I'm a Senior Therapist and I've seen this a million times so it's pretty clear to me" and that used to REALLY set her off. Convo ended with him saying " guess I'll have you answer the phone when it rings" to which I tactfully replied "can I can I can I????) and H said "If she shows up here you can run her off".

Saturday Morning -- H didn't go do PAPER WORK!!!!! 2nd weekend in a row!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! H suggested we could have a "nice evening together" and asked if we could have candles in the living room. He went for a walk by himself, I ran to the store while he was gone, expected to be back before him, but he got back first, when I came in he met me at the door with a hug and this "lost sheep" look on his face, gave me a kiss and said "I've been missing you"....made a suggestion that maybe we needed to take a nap...so I got lunch on, we went to "nap" and didn't sleep....H was saying he wanted to ML "now and later" meaning evening after S was gone.

Somehow in the afternoon we got into a discussion about the A/OW, and H was just all over the place. he cried, literally bawled, that he didnt know how on earth he could have been so stupid. H said Thursday they had quite an email exchange, that she is so good at playing the victim, and he told her on Thursday he is sick of her playing the victim, she's not a victim, that all she is is a hot tempered, manipulative whore who tried to steal another womans H and is mad because it didnt work That all she can ever see is what's in a sitch for her, and that nothing or nobody else's needs makes any difference to her. said he told her all her letters, etc, were nothing but manipultive flowery trash and that is where they are going to go; that he told her he has friends and has no need of someone like her to try to fill that role, but he hopes and assumes that they can function at work as colleagues when necessary. that he doesnt want to see or hear from her, that he will try to make sure he is in and out of the office before she gets to work so they don't have to see each other, and will try to make sure he doesnt on Tuesdays. GO H, GO!!!!

Sat. Nite, H initiated ML again, but it didnt work very well for him...I think he was just so emotionally distraught.

Yesterday, we talked more...H had that "hit by a truck" look and started to sob, said he hated himself for being so mean to her, for the things he said, and he can't believe he ws so mean, it just is not in him to be like that, but it was what it took to get her to leave him alone. Then he sobbed harder and said, over and over, he cant' believe what a stupid fool he has been. He's probably told me a dozen times how sorry he is. He told me that she used to pressure and harangue him the whole time he was with her, and fight and he felt so emotionally wiped out/shattered from it that he began to hate being there and to long for home..evidently it got to the point that she would spend pretty much the whole time he was around pressuring him to leave me and move in with her.

He said her ardor cooled noticably when he pointed out that he intended to make our house payments if he did leave, and he would be pretty broke. and she started to talk then about the extra jobs/work he could take on.....(I've always told him we would figure out a way to get by, that we are not destitute by any means and that his time with his family is more important than extra money)...H said he told her "ok, my resume's ready and I'm sending it to Wyoming, you send your's and lets see what we can get" and then she started saying "no, we wouldnt make much in Wyoming and my mother needs help here", and he began to think "what, I'm supposed to give up everything and you don't intend to give anything?"

I told h S has told me about OW's D showing him pics of all OW's old bf's, S would ask her what happened, and her D would say "he couldnt get enough money and so mom broke up with him", "he couldnt provide well enough so mom left" and on and on. H said he didn't doubt it at all, he doesnt know how many she's been after but her D used to talk to him, and then OW would make sure her D wsnt able to talk to him, H says he hasnt seen her D since she came back from her dad's at the start of school, so that tells him somethings up...and that OW's ex-livin bf, whom H helped her move out from, was po'd at the time because he'd figured out that she was in contact with some other guy (in addition to my H). That OW was cheating on her X-H when they were engaged, but didnt' consider it cheating because they werent married.

At one point he made the comment that "I don't know how many there have been, and I can't figure out how she operates like she does, because she's UGLY and she's NASTY" (my sentiments exactly for this whole time, and a question that's been on my mind )

This morning H was loving and tender, hugged and kissed me, told me he loved me unsolicited, that he knew now I'm the one who loves him because I've "walked the walk all this time"....

I asked him at one point if he thinks she will leave him alone, and he said "yes I do", if that's what he wants, he said "yes it is", asked again if he really thinks she will, and he said "if she intends to keep her job she will", so that makes me kind of nervous, I hope this thing can die with out it getting any uglier.

H told me that last November when he & OW were on the trip to the mountains, he missed me terribly and "it just didnt seem right". He called me every night then, and said she used to "pitch one helluva fit every time" and then sulk and pout all night (hehehehehe, oh darn). I guess his parents called him three times while he was there and that made her even angrier. I didnt know they'd called, he thought I'd "sic'd" them on him. Said he was glad they called because "I guess I just needed to know someone cared".

H told me that OW REALLY threw fits before we left for vacation the end of June, and things got really bad this summer, that after we got back she began threatening suicide. I figured she was going to do something like that.

On a lighter side, he said OW cant cook at all, he got sick of sandwiches and microwave ramen noodles and frozen pizza . I guess my belief that steaks and shrimp and cheesecake and special beers would help stack the deck was right on target.


H has been so tender and loving and demonstrative this weekend, I can't believe it. It is wonderful

Posted By: dfb Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/13/04 04:49 PM
Deb - that is awesome, I am glad he's finally seeming to come around. He's putting a lot of the blame on her, but it seems like he sees how screwed up he was.

That is great also that you asked him why he lied, etc. - hopefully he'll learn now not to lie to you.

Posted By: kml Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/13/04 04:58 PM
Wow -
just another testament to how incredibly screwed up WASs are, that he would even get involved with such a wacko!!!!

You're doing great.

Ellie
Other weekend tidbits:

I walked with H and spent 4 hours watching and old war movie with him (not my top choice, but so glad to be with him)...each time I mentioned doing it, H brightened up and said "you want to walk/watch with me?!?. later he actually thanked me for spending time with him, said how much it helped.

I asked him when he started to doubt his R w/OW, and he thought and said he'd always loved me, missed me terribly on their trip, but REALLY started doubt "them" in Feb. or March. I bet if I go back through my threads, that will be the time I posted that I sensed a "softening" in his attitude towards me and the kids....I know by mid march this was happening, because D noticed when she was home on spring break.

H said OW used to always get angry and accuse me of being a liar. I asked what she said I was lying about, because I never said much about the whole mess one way or another...H said he be excited about things at home and make a comment that I was making positive changes, and OW would go ballistic and say how it was all just a show to manipulate him and get him back and he'd see it was all just a lie....so that explains why he would seem so pleased for a while and then turn around and be so suspicious.

H said he talked about how precious our kids are to us, and how hard it had been to get S here, and that used to drive her wild....and she would have all kinds of put downs. Said he told her how much courage I have, and how I've shown it over and over, that it took so much courage for S to get here ( I had to give myself injections several times every day for 6 months, I've always had a needle phobia ) and that he's always admired me for that and my courage in this whole mess. According to H she would throw fits and pout for days when he said such things (guess I can understand that).
Hi Ellie and dfb....thanks for dropping in. I'm going to keep my focus on building on the positive, but I'm no longer going to close my eyes to the lies, etc.,
I really hope and pray, and believe, that they are over.

Ellie, you are so right about how screwed up the WAS/MLCer's are. Honestly, this is the kind of person H has ALWAYS avoided like the plague. It's always been just unbelievable to me that he would ever take up with some one like her. but I've come to see that was part of the appeal, she was so different and I think such a "forbidden fruit" in so many ways (never mind that there would be a jillion good reasons why she should be forbidden!)
one other little tidbit to record:
this morning I asked H if he was "beginning to feel better", meaning emotionally. He said "I think so, it was certainly better than last weekend, and it's mostly anger now". I replied that maybe that's progress, since we both know that anger is a later stage in the process of grief, and he agreed. He did tell me that the weekends tend to be hard, since that is when he usually went to vist OW....so with that in mind, I'm going to try to focus on something special, just some little things, to occupy that time (as of this summer, Saturday mornings)....maybe one idea is to get up early and fix breakfast while he does chores, then we could either have breakfast in bed together or on the porch ( S usually sleeps till about 9)....I'll have to think of some other things, but that might be a good start. I've never known H to turn down an omelette or a steak! (or french toast, the guy does like to eat!)
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/13/04 06:07 PM
Hi Deb-

So many good things here! You are the DB pro! To be able to listen to your H talk about OW just proves how much you want this marriage to work. Keep it up!

Now, I don't have any experience in this OW area....I hope I never do! (Guess time will tell on that score.) So take what I say with caution and wait for the pros to jump in before you act on it.

But it seems to me that your H gave you permission (at least twice) to help him take care of the OW if she starts acting up and causing trouble. In fact, I think his "permission" was basically..."Deb, handle this". hahaha

So I don't think that I would have a problem telling her..."Hey, OW you lost, it's over, now don't make a fool of yourself. My H tells me that you can be a little crazy with your temper, but let me warn you that you've never seen crazy until you mess with my family..."

But, of course, I think you better wait and get advise from someone that has some experience with these things. They may advise that you just let your H handle things as this is his mess in the first place and he possibly could resent you for getting involved.

No matter what you do I still think that you should practice those lines in front of a mirror! I think it will make you feel better.

Have a great day,

Dawn
Ooooh, oooh, me, me...my H had a crazy ex-roommate!!

Well...I think I've mentioned we had to lie to xrm to get her to go away. (H finally told her I was pregnant--no calls in two weeks!!! According to H, the look on her face was priceless. )

I stayed out of it. I think it was the best thing. Anything from me, IMHO, would have only made matters worse. The *one* time I talked to her on the phone, I politely told her H was not available--and she later told H that I was rude to her. (He had been standing right there.) In my case, I honestly think more involvement from me would have only encouraged her--to "fight" for "her" guy. I think she truly needed to hear it from him.

Now, if she had shown up at my apartment or my work or called me...that would have been a different game. I would have ended it, my way, and she wouldn't have like it one bit. (Legal action!) But, I honestly think, I needed to let H handle it. For one, I don't think she would have gone away if she hadn't heard it from him. And two...well...it was more chances for H to see what she was really like.

JMHO.

something else I forgot to jot down that i should in case i need to recall it later: when H was crying about how awful he had been to OW, he said that he couldnt apologize to her because then she would think he meant they could be "friends", and that it wasnt possible to be friends in a situation like this. I validated that one big time....
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/13/04 06:49 PM
Thanks Nevanna!

I was using the Dirty Harry Method of Dealing with Crazy Wh#res.....

Dawn
Hey Dawn and Nevanna, I'm chuckling here as I digest your input. Actually I think both ideas are on target. I think I PREFER Dawns (uh-oh!) but that for now Nevanna's is the better way to go, for the reason's that Nevanna stated, and also that it will help me to appear different/better than OW, since H sees her as a scary hothead who can't be trusted.

That reminds me of something else I forgot to post, H mentioned this weekend how I have been "reframed" by this whole situation into being seen as the patient, loving, wise one in his eyes. Works for me, I don't want to blow it! He also said that OW was pretty shook when I showed up on her porch pounding on the door in January when I found H shacked up there for the weekend. Said she'd never been scared before, but that scared the heck out of her. Serves her right!!!!

So, my thought is I'm gonna play it cool and calm, but if I so much as get ANY contact from her, the gloves are off. I'm thinking of how I will respond....I just want to answer the phone and have an indication it's her, I'll be so breathless from ML at the time that her skin will crawl, not to mention how "occupied" I will tell her he is at the time! and I hope it is at noon!
I guess you could say I'm chomping at the bit. ohhhhhhh, I just had a nasty thought. I'm going to one of these weekends "kidnap" h for a romantic getaway/interlude. Theres a neat little bed/breakfast about 2 blocks from her house. I could kidnap him and take him there and paint "2nd honeymoon" in big letters on the car windows. just one to tuck in the idea file.
Posted By: 41dk Re: Chronicles of Morphing into a Red Hot Momma - 09/13/04 07:18 PM
Hey Deb-

I was laughing hysterically when I wrote it! But I still love it! Scarey thing is...I would probably do it...and more. (I am NOT the DB ideal. )

I once told my H that the authorities have never been involved in our relationship BUT that if I ever found out about another woman, he had better call the police and an ambulance. He would need them both.

You better follow your instincts (and Nevanna's advice) on this one.....

Dawn
Dawn, you sound like my type of gal!!!!! he hehehe! all I can say is that there's a lot of truth to the sayings that living well is the best revenge, paybacks are hell, and payday doesnt always come on Friday!

Having said all that, I can say that being viewed as the calm quiet one really gives you an occasional opportunity to drop some jaws....and when they drop they really drop!

I had a couple of emails from H today, and in my last one to him, I asked how "other things" were going....didn't hear back from him after that, don't know if it means anything or not, but I guess at this point I'm not going to worry. I really do believe he's working hard to let her go. Of course I want it over and done with 11 months ago, but oh well.


BTW--the best revenge is showing that you are of better character than another person.

Xow (different than xrm--this was the one night stand) used to go into the pub H worked at every week. I had this nasty habit of making sure that I always looked nice and then dropped in on those nights. H couldn't stand her being there--he found it to be very disrespectful...especially after he specifically asked her not to be there.

Anyway, I was there several times when she was. I used to just stare at her... I'm sure she could feel it. There were several nights she had more than enough opportunity to speak to me. One time she passed me in the restroom. Another time she walked aaaaall around me, talking to people beside me and behind me.

The stupid skank never had the guts to actually say anything to me.

Don't get me wrong, if she'd said two words to me, it probably would have come to blows. H used to beg me not to confront her because of his job. (And we did need it at the time.) I never did--because he asked me not to--and eventually most of the patrons knew and liked me. They would talk about how nice I was and how pretty I was and how well H and I matched. And xow had to hear aaaall about it.

In the end, even her "friends" told her to leave him (us!) alone. I think I got the best revenge out of that one. She made herself look like the idiot. And I'm actually very glad I never confronted her--because I managed to show I was much, much classier than her.

Revenge can come in the most unexpected ways....and sometimes it's better that way.
yep, Nevanna, I believe it's called taking the high road. Kind of a long hard climb sometimes, though! I do believe it pays off in the long run though.
Quote:

I do believe it pays off in the long run though.




It did for me. Xow was nothing but a bar w****, anyway, who just happened to catch at his most vulnerable. In the end, it was very satisfying to know that I had much more class than her.

Oh...and I cursed it... Xrm just called. From a number that H didn't know. Damn. She wanted to know when he was "leaving." (For the army.) It really weirded him out. So much for my nice calm. Ah, well...what can you do about someone who is psycho??
If I ever figure out what to do about a psycho, I will let you know!!!
Guess I should post just so I can keep track of "goings on" if nothing else. I'm kind of a mess today, not worth much here at work, because my mind is a happy muddle.

I am finally beginning to believe that we will make it. Hopefully soon I can stop waiting for the other shoe to drop....H has been a little grumpy the last couple of days, which makes me nervous, but he seems to be getting yet another sinus infection, feels icky from that plus hasnt slept for 2 nights. Last night when he got home from work, I told him it was good to have him home, and he said it was nice to know he was wanted. Made me sad he would have ever doubted that! this morning he was grumpy, irritable. I asked him when we were doing chores if he'd been in touch w/OW...he got more irritated ...said I always assumed that, that he just didnt feel well. I told him I wasnt assuming anything, that I was asking because it could affect what I could do to help him feel better, but I hadn't made any assumptions. H said he hadnt had any contact with her at all (lord, I hope that's true), walked out the door, then came back in and hugged me and said "ILY".

As he was leaving for work, we exchanged a nice big hug, and I told him he was my treasure....that I was sorry, but I was just going to have to reclaim my terms. He got this puzzled look on his face and said "terms????"....I told him terms of endearment, since he said OW had taken all the ones I used. that I'd actually gotten out the thesaurus to look for other words but couldnt find any that fit, so I was going to reclaim them. He kind of snickered at that, and said "they were only horse sh-t coming from her anyway".

At about 8:30 this morning I got an email from him saying he was sorry for waking up grumpy, and ending with "I sure love you". Just a few months ago it seemed completely impossible that I would ever hear such words from him. I sent him a mushy one back, and he responded that my love and support meant a lot to him. I've had a couple more that have been more business like. When they change to a businesslike tone, I'm always afraid that it's because OW is rattling his cage, but maybe it's not (even though I know it has been at times in the past)

He told me the A ended the monday before labor day, and that OW is the one that ended it, although he had to get really nasty to get her to leave him alone. I told him I guess I was ok with being the default, and he said I wasnt, it's just what he had to do to get her to go. what ever that means.
I am in shock. Good shock. My H, the guy who for over a year got up at 5 am to rush to phone OW, this morning got up and crawled on his hands and knees to reach me across the bed and give me a good morning kiss. HE initiated that! I woke several times in the night to find him holding my hand or his arm around me. I am just blown away. The guy is a romantic! I absolutely love it. it is more than I ever dreamed possible.
this is weird. I lost a long (and good) post about last night's discussion with H. How frustrating. Don't have time to repost it now. I'm pretty sure it was here for a while.
Quote:

I am just blown away. The guy is a romantic! I absolutely love it.




Make sure to tell him that!!
Posted By: debcb HELP! I need Ideas for Romance!!!!!!!!!! - 09/15/04 07:34 PM
I will try to redo my lost post later to update everybody, as well as I can recall, but in the meantime, I am going to start a campaign to romance the socks (and other things!) off of H. I NEED IDEAS!!!!!! HELP!!!!!!!!!!

We are at the point I thought we would never ever reach, as far as he's concerned it's full steam ahead for US! YAY...at long long long last.
Posted By: debcb Re: HELP! I need Ideas for Romance!!!!!!!!!! - 09/15/04 07:59 PM
an idea just occured to me. I've been telling H I'm gonna kidnap him, he finally said yesterday "I'm all for it"...I'm not sure when it will be, so much going on always, but I'm going to get something that looks like a treasure chest and put romantic stuff in it and lock it so it's ready to go but he can't get into it. I think I'll put in a little bottle of champagne and 2 glasses, maybe a couple of his favorite beers, some massage oil and one of those wooden massage rollers, some kind of romantic songs on a cd and a little (cheap) player of some kind, some jar candles, maybe some kind of sexy nightie/undies for both of us, a book of love poems, maybe some kind of romantic snack we can feed each other. I'll lock it and keep it in the bed room and let him wonder. when we find out S is going to be at a friends, I'll call a local hotel and find a room with a jacuzzi in it, and somehow convince H to go....What do you all think? any other ideas for in the "treasure chest"?
Ok, I'm going to try to redo the post I lost earlier today. to recap from last night: H got home about 8:30, did a mile on the treadmill, came to the dining room, sat at the table and started talking, talked until 11, telling me bits and pieces of the A/R w/OW. He said that he had planned to leave and be at her house by Christmas, that when they were on the mountain trip in Nov., she bought an ornament with both their names on it. This didnt surprise me, because when the bomb 1st dropped mid-Oct he absolutely wouldnt commit to being home over the holidays. He said he stayed because S begged him to, the poor kid was so upset it broke his heart, and OW was really angry about it. That explains her ugly looks at church on xmas eve. That he told her that as a mother she should understand, he didnt believe she would be able to leave and break her child's heart at christmas either, and that upset her more.

H said he began to believe that if he watched and waited, it would become clear to him where he belonged, that it would become obvious eventually where the "real" love was. H said that when he talked about what he needed and was dissatisfied with, I took it to heart, gave it careful consideration, and tried my darnedest to find a way to do it. That OW never did anything like that, that he even tried to tell her what he needed, and she became more and more angry, resentful and demanding.

He said it began to make him crazy because she was so angry and jealous, and he never knew when she was going to blow up at him over something he didnt even know he had done. H said she would throw a fit if she heard him say "hi" to a female coworker in the hall, sometimes she would be mad and pouting and he couldnt even remember who he'd said hi to. I was flabbergasted, told him I insisted on having credit that I never had and never would do such a thing, that I couldn't believe it, he agreed.

H said that under different circumstances he thought OW and I would probably be good friends, that we have a lot of the same interests. bleh.

That he had changed the times he went to see her because he missed going to church. I had wondered if that was it.

H asked if I remembered grabbing him by the front of his blue sweatshirt and shaking him when I found out about the A....I didn't, but after he mentioned it I kind of do. He was actually laughing and said, "well, she used to do the same thing only she did it a lot. I got the s--t shook out of me in that shirt, so I finally stopped wearing it!" It's kind of humorous now, sure wasnt at the time.

He said that when we were on vacation this summer and I was getting after him for calling her (I only did it a couple of times!) that he kept calling and calling her cell phone and no one ever answered, he couldnt figure it out. turns out OW's dog had carried the cell phone into her back yard and put it with her toys. I laughed till I cried over that, said "well, at least CC (the dog) was on my side!" Of course H called on the regular phone when he couldnt get through on the cell

After we went to bed, H said "I'm so sorry, I shouldnt keep blubbering on about this" I told him it actually helps me to feel better because I have a little more insight into things. I don't feel like I'll ever be able to hear sexual details, though. Don't think he'd want to share them.

H also made the comment that "I sure never want to get involved in anything like this again, it was terrible" and he looked very sincere and certain when he said it.

this morning, we talked a little bit....I told him I loved the romance I'd discovered in him, but that I never knew he liked it, he said again he had never got to have it so he never knew. I told him I'd thought long and hard to understand how romance and sex were different, and finally started to get an inkling. H agreed that there is a difference, but said "one can enhance the other"
I told him ILY many times, he responded and initiated it, I comment I hoped I wasnt over doing it, and he said he didnt think it was possible to hear it to often but that people don't tell each other enough out of pride and anger and hurt, and then they drift apart. I said I never want to have that happen to us again, and he said "it won't"

I am finally starting to feel confident that he's back, that OW is history. praise the Lord! I just feel "in my bones" that he would NOT be sharing all this with me if it wasnt truely over, and he intends for it to stay over. This is new behavior, that has come on slowly over about the last month.

Well, gonna post this before I lose it again. gotta pick up S in a minute from religous ed class.
Oh deb, I havent checked in for quite some time and here you are. Im so happy for you deb, really. I almost cried when I read your post. You've been in my thoughts always and I am so proud of you. You really deserve the best because you have tirelessly DBing and it has paid off!

Hi Deb - I'm so glad H is sitting with you and chatting for hours - this is so what we need, isn't it? Kudos to you for making him feel comfortable enough to open up. You are a success story, sweetie.

Inspired today, Slowly
Deb,

I am soooo proud of you. You are a wonderful woman and you deserve only the best in life. Any wife who would put this much effort into her M is to be commended.

I wish that I was closer to where you are now, but my H is not so compliant. And I do believe that having his OW in a foreign county ( and not in the office down the hall) is really dragging things out.

But I am keeping the faith, and still believing for my M.

You go girl. I am proud of you and am enjoying your success vicariously.

Pam
Hey Deb-

Or I should say, "YEAH Deb!" I think you are doing wonderfully well. It is so good to hear how much you are enjoying and appreciating this good fortune.

Your H's walls have really come tumbling down. It think it's great that you are listening and validating. He really needs to get all of this off his chest. It's part of his healing process. (I think it's a good thing for you NOT to listen to any stories about sex life. Glad to hear that you set that boundry for yourself.)

As far as romantic ideas....if I come up with any, I'll let you know. What I read so far sounds excellent. A reminder to remember his LL in all things.

I remember my H telling me how proud he was of me through-out this whole mess and how he knows that if it wasn't for me and my efforts we would be divorced right now. (Not saying that we are safe just yet though.) Anyway, Dbing seems to be the ultimate act of love, doesn't it?

Lastly, have to add that I was LMAO as I read about the blue sweatshirt! And here I thought red was the color that ignited fury........LOL.

Have a good one.

Dawn
Hi Pam, Slowly and BnB....thank you all for stopping by, I've been checking on your threads but not posted much lately. I will get to you soon. BnB, have you posted recently on your thread? I don't think I've seen you around.

I'm having a hectic work day and not much time to post, but will try to this evening. I'm somewhat irritated today, because I found out last night OW called H at lunch hour yeterday, and has done that several times over the last couple of weeks. I wondered from the phone call at home last Friday, but anyway, H is being honest with me, and is talking and talking and talking and talking, more than he has in the 26 years I've known him, and he's quite loving. I am convinced it's sincere.

HOWEVER, I am so frustrated that I am going to stop on the way back from a meeting I'm headed to, by myself some flowers, have the people in the shop sign the card "guess who?" and put them here on my desk so they'll be here when he stops by my office this evening. If I get back in time, I'll email him "thanks" before he leaves his out-of -town office. If I gotta get out the flame thrower, so be it!
Hi Dawn, Thanks for the encouragement!!!! Actually I'm doing great at the moment, but I might shake him if he put the blue sweatshirt on (I think we were posting at the same time earlier) anyway, I gotta run to a meeting and pick up my flowers , then I'll post about a shirt I'm going to get for MYSELF for casual days here at work!!!!!!
You do sound good....
Guess I'll try to update goings on here, it's been wild today and I havent gotten much posted.
Last night when I when to pick up S at religous ed class, I was waiting in the big central room and in walks...yup, OW. Yakking on her cell phone (damn dog should have buried it deeper!) my stomach lurched, but I just glanced calmly at her and then ignored her. she went around behind me somewhere, and then when I turned to start out the door w/S, I looked up and saw she was out the door ahead of me like a shot. When I got home, I told H, who looked irritated (at her) said she'd mentioned those were the kids her D was used to going to class with, so she was going to keep taking her there. the b---h. Thank god I'm taking S to class again this year. I asked H if she called him, since she was on her cell, and he said "you mean tonight? no"...so I asked if she has been calling him, and he said she calls him sometimes at lunch hour at work, and had yesterday ....I was not happy at all, and told him so. He said it isnt very often, and mostly when she calls she just gripes at him, and they don't have much to say to each other. said he hasnt been calling her ?????? I hope. I told him that if she's still calling she's still emotionally invested and still hoping to get her hooks in him. He said "if that were true, wouldnt you be pleasant and nice when you call some one instead of bitching at them? I told him I would, but that obviously isn't her. H said he is convinced it is a process of her being able to let go, and that the only way she will let go for good is if he lets her "get it out of her system" ???????? but that it is at that point. He believes she'll have somebody else in a few weeks, and that will be it. Said he feels relief, and believes that to some extent she does as well.

Then we talked for several hours about all this again. H said again H was sorry for talking about it, and I told him (again) that for some odd reason that I can't explain, it helps me feel a lot better. I told him I guessed it was like shining a flashlight on the monster under the bed, that just knowing what you're dealing with makes it easier, but that I wished this one would just go away and stay away. He put his arms around me and said "There's no monster there". He seems so sincere, I don't want to be a sucker but I do believe him, his entire demeanor is different now.
As we were talking, he said that OW is so upset she sick, cant keep any thing down and has diarhea so bad she is having to take prescription meds, and he is worried about her and wants to make sure she stays on top of it. Manipulative B---h!
H said a couple of weeks ago she asked him if he was "going to work things out with Deb" and he told her "yes". Said she got kind of nasty about that and started saying well then, the best woman won, the best woman won" and just kept saying it. Then H said I should get a t-shirt with that on it and wear it to work....told him I'd get sent home for violating the dress code, but I could probably at least walk down the hall by her office a couple of times before I got caught. H said "you could even go into her office to talk to the other nurse about something, and when she mention it say "yeah, H got me this"....so he was being a devil, hehehehehe.

H said he told her he has been telling me all about "everything" (havent heard and don't intend to hear details about sex) told her "I mean EVERYTHING" and he said that upset her, she didnt like it. H commented, "I guess I can understand that, it is personal, but it's not private any more". maybe that's part of what helps me to feel better when he talks about it. That and i see in his face that he is FINALLY being honest about it.

H said that he decided he was going to stay the end of January, but he knew that thing were going to have to die off for it to be able to end, and that it had to be a process. I've heard that before from him, kind of understand but still??????. That you can't just toss someone you've been close to out like a piece of paper (it would have worked for me if he did!)

I am still finding out that she said a lot of the same things to H that I do, and that ticks me off to no end, but oh well. This morning we were STILL talking, and I told him I just couldnt comprehend my life without him, that I knew I could do it, but I had a hard time picturing it. H said "I know, I can't comprehend life without you and being here". I told him "I don't think any other guy could measure up"....and he said "oh my god"...when I asked "what?" he said "she said the same thing".....I think I just walked off on that one.

Then he told me that she always called him "Cheesecake"...something she loved but can't have (lactose intolerance)....I said "well, at least I never called you cheesecake" and he said "I don't think it was a term of endearment"....

So, a couple of emails this morning, not too mushy. I know H is busy, he is training a new secretary and a new clinician for the outreach office, so it's been a hectic week. Still, I've been pretty irritable with the knowledge that she's been calling him, even if it isn't often. So, I decided H needs a little gentle kick in the pants even as I'm working on still making sure he's drawn back tight. So, after a meeting, I stopped by a florist's and bought myself a few roses arranged in a bud vase. put them on my desk where they can't be missed. H stopped by after work, and didnt say a single word about them, but I saw him look at them 3 times...yep, I was watching. If he says anything about who are they from, I'm going to say "you mean you didn't send them?" and act like I don't know where they came from.

As he was leaving, I told him I'd missed him today, and he said he missed me too, and I backslid -- I said "Oh sure, as you were chatting on the phone with someone else at lunch" - bad, bad, dbing - and he looked a little hurt and said "I wasnt talking to anyone, didnt all day"....I shouldnt have said a word, but I am still irritated. Of course, that would play right into the manipulative b---h's hands, to let her make trouble, so I figure I've said my piece and now I'm going to drop it. I've learned that H really does take think I say to heart and consider them much more than I ever knew, he just never lets me know until a lot latter. I told him I was looking forward to having some time together, and he said "well, come home early"...so that's good.

OK, I can not resist this one. I am going to do it. I'm going to get "Best Woman 1" or maybe "won" printed on a t-shirt, and I'm going to wear it on casual days to work. If she complains I'll look blank and not have a clue what she's talking about (don't want to be creating a hostile work environment). I think I'll get a shirt for H with "cheesecake" on it. That is pretty hostile, he probably won't wear it, but oh well! Actually I was thinking this afternoon I could get those beads that you string together to make a necklace that are letters and spell out "best woman" and then hang a 1 in the middle of the front as a pendant. tacky, yes, but fun......
I'm still making plans to romance his socks off, even though I'm irritated with her continuing manipulative efforts. So I got started today. I'm gonna kidnap him and take him to a hotel with a whirlpool suite, I called around today and found out which ones have them and what they run. then over lunch I started assembling my kidnapping kit. Found a cute little trunk that looks like a treasure chest, big enough I think to hold the supplies. I also got some candles with what I think is a sensual scent, 2 wine glasses, some massage oil. just getting started, but it was fun, maybe I'll get the kit all put together this weekend and have it ready to go when the occassion arises....kinda like having your bag packed for the hospital when you're pregnant.
I am going to figure out some way to lock it so he can't get in it (don't yet know how) and leave it setting out in the bedroom. I think that will really get his attention.

Still need ideas!
Quote:

the best woman won, the best woman won" and just kept saying it. Then H said I should get a t-shirt with that on it and wear it to work..



LOL!!! We should all get shirts like that!

Ellie
Deb,
My oh my!! You go girl. I am extremly and I mean extremly proud and excited that things have gone as well as they have. I am sorry for not being around, I have taken a long break from the boards - I needed it.
It truly sounds like you are on the road to recovery and it is only a matter of time. You made my night!! How long has he been back?
mndad (In recovery myself )
Deb,

Ok, I am happy for you, I really am.

But are you serious about this shirt thing? Come on, you be the bigger woman, the classy one. Gloating in her face may make you feel better for a sec, but do you really think that it will help matters?

As we love to say, will it get you any closer to your goal?

The answer of course is "no." Leave it be.

It is not your job to punish her, it sounds like she is self-punishing anyway, and you do not want to push her over the edge into a breakdown, or give her a reason to fight harder for H or make your lives any more miserable.

Just my .02.

Pam
I wouldn't do the t-shirt either. Nor the flowers (your H does sound like he's trying - you don't want him thinking you have been running around on him).

The t-shirts would be hostile, and you should be happy now and not causing possible problems that might upset your H as well. Just think - she sees you plenty, and she KNOWS you are with him and not her. She is reminded of that every day.

Ha...goes back to my story about the bar w**** having to hear about me... Oh, sure I fantasized (a lot) about beating the crap out of her. But, as I said before--my revenge was sweeter. And H always made a point of being lovey dovey and kissing me or hugging me when she was around. (Okay, so I have a mean streak. I enjoyed every second of it.)

Who doesn't want to beat the crap out of the OW? I asked H what his ONS looked like. He said why? I said so I can identify her and then beat the s@!t out of her. He just laughed and so OK, she looks like this ....
Hi Deb-

Got a chuckle out of the shirt idea. I have my doubts that you will actually do it though....but it is fun to think about, isn't it? LOL

Okay, more importantly, STOP that damn backsliding! You are making it worse for both of you. Instead of the accusing words (and they do sound accusing) try something like, "man, oh man, all of the sudden I feel insecure H. Give me a minute and I will be fine." Then breathe and GET OVER IT. Chances are he will say something to help the situation. I mean it Deb...CUT IT OUT.

And yes, I can see that OW is a manipulative wh#re. She is probably eating ice cream like a fiend in order to get the desired effect. LOL There is likely more to come on that front. Prepare yourself and don't fall apart. You can do this.

Have a great weekend...

Dawn
Well dang, you all, if I have to be mature and level headed about this, can I at least have cheese-lovers pizza delivered to her house????? I hear she LOVES it! OK, I'll rethink the shirt, but it sounds like so much fun, and much kinder than choking her. I did get myself some flowers though, havent said a word to H about them.

I know you're right Dawn, I gotta keep the self-defeating backsliding down, and I will. I'm gonna refocus on the "good stuff", H really craves that, obviously. I did check out hotels here locally with whirlpool suites last night, so I know which ones are an option. I told H I'm planning his kidnapping, and he sounded kind of "tickled", and asked "where to?", told him I couldnt tell someone where I was kidnapping them to, and he said "well it kind makes a guy wonder", so I took that as a positive. H initiated ML last night and this morning, so I guess that is a sign that things are going well, we didnt talk last night about OW/A, which is ok, I'm just following his lead on that.
Hi MnDad, it's good to hear from you, I hadnt seen you around and wasnt sure If I'd just lost you somehow or if you were of the bb. I need to check things out on your thread!

You asked how long H has been back. He never actually moved out, never even moved into a separate bedroom, but we were sure miles apart emotionally. I would have to say it's been a slow emotional reconnection since about February. One teeny tiny creeping inching step at a time. Finally, I think We're about there!
Hi Deb - Threre are just so many parallels it never ceases to amaze me.
Quote:

said he told her he has been telling me all about "everything" (havent heard and don't intend to hear details about sex) told her "I mean EVERYTHING" and he said that upset her, she didnt like it. H commented, "I guess I can understand that, it is personal, but it's not private any more". maybe that's part of what helps me to feel better when he talks about it. That and i see in his face that he is FINALLY being honest about it.



For NG too, telling me was a turning point, except the ship is still turning as he lets go in little dribs. And yes, it ticked off OW big time.

You are an amazing lady, Deb. Looking forward to reading up about your weekend. Slowly
Thanks Slowly, I just read your thread, and I agree, the similarities are incredible. This past weekend was interesting, all over the place emotionally for both of us, but good I think (hope)....I will post about it in a little while.
Along the the theme of romancing his socks off, I didn't make a lot of progress this weekend, but this morning 1st thing I emailed him "je t'aime" in big bold letters. I didn't think he'd know what it meant, and I just got an email back saying "I'm sorry, I don't get it?"....so I emailed him back that it was one of the few french phrases I could remember, I love you, and that I wanted to make sure he started the week with that thought in his mind in big bold letters. I havent heard back from him yet......we shall see.
Ok, to recap the weekend, I'll try to go day by day. interesting (i.e. confusing to me!) stuff going on, and I could sure use anyones thoughts on what to make of it, what I should do.
Thursday/Friday, I sensed the H was a little more "distant" emotionally. This comes close to throwing me into a state of panic because int he past it has meant things with OW were flaring back up. Friday afternoon, we were folding laundry together and I asked H if he was angry or upset with me about something, told him I sensed that he was emotionally more distant and that sometimes that had meant he was upset, and I had avoided dealing with that in the past. Told him that part of my "new leaf" was that I was going to deal with issues rather than "stuffing" them, because I felt like that contributed to our problems, so I would like to know from him if there was something "up"....H said there wasnt, that he wasnt angry at me, but that he was experiencing a lot of anger over the break up. That he was so mad at OW for being such a manipulative self-serving something or other (don't recall what), and that he was so mad at himself for being such a sucker and falling for it. That it had nothing to do with me/us. I asked him to promise me that if things came up that were bothersome to him in our R, that he would talk to me about them, and that I would do the same. He promised, and gave me a hug.

Later I took a nap, and he came into the room to wake me up, said he'd give me a hug if I wanted one, I got up and we had a nice hug....H thanked me for loving him so much, said he could tell from the way I treated him, that I was so patient and kind and forgiving with him....I joked and said "o, you read that big 1st Corinthians poster I pasted on the wall"....he was serious and said well, it's true, it's so different from the self-serving stuff that some people try to pass off as love"....

Several times over the weekend, H said I Love you and apologized for the hurt and "mess" he caused.

Saturday and Sunday, H switched from being angry to big time sadness/grieving. cried and cried and cried, just so sad it's almost overwhelming to me. I am not sure how to handle this, I just hug him, tell him I love him and to let me know how I can help. He says he needs to hear ILY, and needs lots of affection right now, and other than that he has to work through it on his own.

He commented again "If you don't want me, now is the time to let me go"....I hate hearing that. I told him I want him and love him very much, and asked if he wanted me to let him go, and he said "no".

Saturday night was absolutely weird. We just "hung out"...Sat at the dining room table to watch a football game (I don't believe in having a TV in the dining room, but that's another story) right now though I'm kind of glad it's there because H sometimes hangs out there while I am in the kitchen. H asked me to watch the game with him, so I threw in the towel (literally) and did. H took my hand very tenderly on the table top, and held it, for a long, long time. He fiddled with my diamond. He smiled at me....and then he flirted naughtily. I said I was excited about something with him (don't remember what) and he said very quietly "I'm excited you have big boobs" this is totally out of character for H, I was so shocked my mouth dropped open, and I said "did you say....????? I can't believe you said that!" and he winked at me.

later we were talking about how long it has taken us to figure out what we have about our R/M, and H commented "we'll make it to 50." All this time he's been holding my hand. (neither of us was paying a lot of attention to the game, obviously)

At half time, we hugged, and H started being "handsy", I told him he needed to be discreet as S was around, and he said "lets go upstairs", so we did, ML, but it was so weird, H wasnt able to perform very well, said he was so tired??????? So we went back and watched part of the 2nd 1/2, H went to bed before the game was over. weird. I'd guess he was overcome by thoughts of OW but I don't know what to do about it.

Sunday, H was still loving and sweet. I cleaned living room carpet and he mentioned how much he appreciated my efforts and how nice it looked; at one point I mentioned wishing the weekend wouldnt end so soon, and H said he was glad it would, because going to work and being busy helped him and he does better during the week . he commented that we would be going to my brothers this weekend (for my "surprise" b-day party) and that would be better than "moping around here"....

I've been sleeping nude because it feels so nice and warm to snuggle up to him, and he tells me it's comforting and helps him sleep better. last night he came to bed without a shirt, the better to snuggle. This morning he initiated ILY, seemed pleasant and loving, but hasnt responded in kind to my email....ah, well

Has anyone else experienced this back and forth emotional stuff after the ending of an A? any tips on the best way to deal with it????? ANY insights at all would be greatly appreciated!!!!! I'm finding this really challenging!
Saturday I commented about rearranging the family room so it would be available for either "passionate romantic interludes or hot naughty sex" (it has skylights that are pretty cool to look at the stars through)...H said "I prefer romance, it's more fun"....that knocked MY socks off...I commented that I was sure in the past that he had NOT liked it, that he'd actually told me as much. H agreed, said "I was really depressed and closed off then, I'm not now". He commented that his interest in romance was one of the benefits to come from the A, and I should be glad he had found out how much he likes it. I commented that I was glad he'd learned that information, but very unhappy with where/how he'd learned it. He just nodded.

H discovered the little treasure chest I bought for the "kidnapping kit", asked what it was for, and I told him I was putting together a kidnapping kit. He said OW always talked about kidnapping him . GRRRRRRRRR If I was a dog I'd bite her ankle.
I am so anxious no matter how hard I try. I havent heard much at all today from H via email, and what I did get was very matter of fact and businesslike. I am always terrified it means he & OW are firing up again.
Has anyone else who managed to rebuild their marriage after an affair experienced this cycle of anger -- grief--anger--grief...(the WAH's, that is) over and over? HOW do you handle this?????
I don't have expert advice but I can tell you I am going through the same thing with my H and his ONS. One minute he is yelling about how disgusting and manipulative women like the OW are and the next minute he is sobbing telling me he can't believe he did something that stupid, he can't believe he risked our marriage like that. I honestly don't have an answer on how to deal with it. When he is yelling, I just listen and don't comment. When he is crying, I hold him. The yelling is easier to deal with. The crying is something I've never dealt with before. H is not emotional and I'm not sure what to do. My H also seems to be terrified that I am going to leave. I think this may be where the mood swings are coming from. He cannot believe that I want to stay with him. He is appreciative that I am willing to stick it out and work on it but at the same time he thinks I'm going to leave at any moment. My advice would be just hang in there. Let him rant, let him cry. He needs to work through it. Reassure him that you are there for the long haul.
Well, it's me again. I haven't posted to you much although I read you all the time. Right now you are about 3 miles ahead of me on my journey.

"My what to do suggestions"...And God only knows I always want to do something, even if it's wrong I still always want to do something. LOL

1. validate
2. listen
3. don't take it personally
4. don't feel like you have to respond or have the answer or fix your H, just keep on being there for him
5. When you are about ready to puke because you have just plain had enough, then walk away, leave the house, or come talk to us
6. Don't keep asking him about OW, let it be, let it be. Make your mind, your home, your car, wherever, an OW-free zone.
7. Pray, pray for wisdom, guidance, discernment, and a heart to love your H even when he isnt being lovable
8. count your blessings, some of us, including me, would give our eyeteeth to be where you are at now
9. be kind to yourself, look at the big pic, You are doing great, you are a huge dbing success and a great encouragement to lots of us

Pam
Hi Pam I appreciate your input, and I have to say, I believe you are right on track. LOL regarding your comment on always wanting to DO SOMETHING....I hear ya, sister.

I am so blessed in so many ways, and I am praying now I think more than ever before. I truely believe that if God werent guiding through this mine field, all would have been lost long ago.

I find the tears and grief much harder to deal with than the anger, and as I think about it, I believe that is because of my pride or self interest. If he's furious at the b---h, I can think "See, I told you so, H!"....part of the difficulty in dealing with the tears I think comes from knowing that he cares so much about some other woman that it is tearing him up to lose her. Boy, that sticks in really sore places. So, I guess I need to pray to be able to let go of that and then maybe I will know better how to help.

Another part of the difficulty in dealing with the tears is that it is terribly difficult to see some one you love hurt so badly and not be able to "fix it" regardless of the reason for the hurt. I am a confirmed and chronic "fixer", working hard to over come that. I am such a fixer that when S was 2, the poor kid smashed his finger with a rock, I kissed his Owie away so good, I convinced him it didnt hurt. We found out a month later it was broken . If only I could do that now with H.

I've been reading your thread Pam, just not getting much posting done other than my sordid saga. How is your job search/resume updating going?
Thanks for your input Moving Forward. This tearful stuff is just mind-blowing to me. I don't know what to think/do about it. Plus, I believe H is crying over losing her, not as much about what he did to our marriage, although that's probably some of it. How long do you think this lasts?

What is your thread?
Hi Deb - I'm having almost similar problems, what a surprise
Quote:

part of the difficulty in dealing with the tears I think comes from knowing that he cares so much about some other woman that it is tearing him up to lose her. Boy, that sticks in really sore places. So, I guess I need to pray to be able to let go of that and then maybe I will know better how to help.



Yup, I know exactly where you are coming from. Upon reflection, I don't think we need to put ourselves through this. I think I'm going to keep myself otherwise busy. But you are right, this can still be so very hard.

Slowly
Deb-

Just checking in...how are you doing?

Dawn
Hi Dawn, thanks for stopping by. I'm doing ok, just been so busy at work and home I havent had time to post at all for several days, I guess that's good, means I have a life at least!

Things are going pretty well with H, I told him monday and tuesday that I still have trouble with feeling anxious....Monday he was kind of irritated and said sometimes I wear him down (ok, gotta stop that)....Tuesday he hugged me and said "you don't need to be". I don't get as much "mushiness" from him right at the moment, and I suppose that adds to my anxiety that he'll go back to OW.... but over all he is certainly much more loving and caring.

H initiated ML both Tuesday night and Wednesday night, so I guess that says something.

last night I took S to religious ed class, before we left, H commented "when you get back we can have a little time together" which basically tranlates into "watch a little tv", but that's ok. When I went to pick S up at class, OW's poor D came walking out to the waiting area where I was sitting, and the poor child stopped dead in her tracks, her mouth dropped open and she turned white, which makes me wonder what the heck her mother has told her about me. I have never seen or met the kid, I knew who she was last night because she looks just like her mother and from her response (of course she went to her mother also).

I'm trying really hard to resist asking H about if they still email/phone....but it sure bugs the heck out of me.

I'm trying to stay focused on morphing into a hot momma and maintaining the life I've gotten....got a new hairdo Tuesday, H actually asked me what the deal was with it....it's flipped up/out on the ends, I like it because it's different and easy. Just about got the money saved up for my new bike; got plans underway for kidnapping H, and here's the mind-blowing part: Saturday is my 50th birthday. I can't believe it. My brother is throwing whats supposed to be a surprise party for me, H told me because he suspected I was plotting his kidnapping for then ( I was!), all H knows is that "people you used to know are invited" and he is convinced it includes old boyfriends (?) and is kind of "wierd" about it.

I still can't believe I'm dealing with this soap opera stuff at "this age"! oh, well. at least I'm not pregnant!

I could sure use some tips on how to proceed from here, though. I pretty much believe OW is history, I don't think H wants to start up with her again, although I'm not sure all contact has ceased. I'm trying to keep the focus on making home a great and appealing place to be, and making our life together warm and happy and hopefully passionate. Maybe I'm doing ok, H commented last week that it was weird, but roles had completely reversed, things had completed switched around, that he had begun to prefer being at home to being at OW's and to prefer being with me to being with her. I just hope it lasts!
Quote:

When I went to pick S up at class, OW's poor D came walking out to the waiting area where I was sitting, and the poor child stopped dead in her tracks, her mouth dropped open and she turned white, which makes me wonder what the heck her mother has told her about me.




Typical OW stuff. Too bad the poor kid is stuck in the middle. All you can do is stay out of it...

Quote:

all H knows is that "people you used to know are invited" and he is convinced it includes old boyfriends (?) and is kind of "wierd" about it.





He's feeling insecure. Yeah, I know, it comes off as hippocritical. But H reacted the same way with me a few months back. We ran into this guy we both knew from a few years back. It's no secret I had a huge crush on him--and we found out later he had one on me at the same time. Well, he never asked me out, and my H did. He got really weird around H for a long time...we both thought it was jealousy...he had the most shocked look on his face when he saw the engagement ring. Anyway, when we ran into him again, H got kind of anxious, asked if I regretted never dating the guy. Commented I might have ended up married to him, if I thought that might have been better. I just reassured him that I was very happy with the way things had turned out.

Quote:

I could sure use some tips on how to proceed from here, though. I pretty much believe OW is history, I don't think H wants to start up with her again, although I'm not sure all contact has ceased.




I seriously doubt that all contact has stopped, as well. It just usually doesn't happen that way. Especially if they work in the same place. But, I also think that it's got to be her doing all the pushing. Just got to let her act like the crazy we all know she can be. In the end, it will make him want to get away.

And congrats on the new hairdo.
Deb-

Glad you are ok! I started to worry when I did not see your usual posts. Happy to know that nothing is wrong.

I see that you are still struggling with thoughts of OW. I sympathize, I really do, but it's not going to help you. Your H says that he is more comfortable being home now. Please try to remember why that is. Be confident Deb. I think he finds that appealing.

I had to laugh about your H being jealous. HA I would not fret over this...he deserves it!

Have a wonderful birthday and remember YOU ARE A RED HOT MOMMA!!!

Dawn
WOW! WTG Deb!!!

I am so happy for you! You're not off the rollercoaster yet, but there is less chance of you being flung out of the ride now! I've been through the stage you are now at..expect a few more bumps..that darn anger/grief for what he's done..but try to AVOID saying anything about OW in a teasing way. When you teased him about who he might have been talking to at lunch..I did that too and H said it made him really angry. At this point he is trying to purge. Remember in the beginning when I told you to be his best friend, and when things with OW ended that YOU would be his sounding board? His blabbing about the OW is proof that you did just that. Just keep listening and validating.

You are doing a GREAT job! Even though I don't post, I've been keeping an eye on you and I am so glad you found your way through the cheese!
HI! It's so good to hear from you!!!! How are you and your guys doing? I have to say, If it wasnt for your support last winter, I don't know if I'd have made it. You really were my lifeline at times. I hope all is great in your corner of the world, that you came through the hurricanes ok....I thought of you!

I've just been trying to keep on keeping on, being his friend was sure the right track to take. It's been amazing the way he opened up the last 2 weeks. Hopefully, we are over the biggest hurdles now...still some distance to travel, but I believe that will always be "life".
Hi Nevanna, I sure appreciate hearing from you. It helps so much to know other people have seen this weird stuff, made it through, and survived.
I hunted through my old threads and found this. It's been so helpful to me I wanted to move it up here for easier reference. I couldn't find the direct link, although I know I've seen it posted. many thanks still to Christine E who sent this to me back on February 24!
I copied and pasted the post so that I don't have to do the link. I wish I knew who the original author is. This is great stuff:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE "AS IF" ATTITUDE It all boils down to this ... you must have a Special "As If" Attitude to significantly increase the likelihood your marriage will be saved -- even if your spouse really doesn't want to work on it. You can make a difference.This attitude is full of positive energy and it releases very powerful and deep psychological mechanisms in your spouse. The strength of those mechanisms is largely determined by how well you live your Special "As If" Attitude.

There are four key things to remember about this Special "As If" Attitude:

A. a model, a concept visualization tool to help you understand what has and is and can be happening with your spouse.

B. knowledge, your knowledge of the DB principles may be the single most important knowledge you need in order to win back your spouse and save your marriage.

C. patterns of behavior, recognizing what got you here and what will take you home.

D. the design of your Special "As If" Attitude, what you, personally need to do.

A. Special "As If" Attitude Model This model is a simple attempt to help you understand what's going on right now .. and to make it easier to understand why the attitude with which you deal with your spouse right now is critical to the improvement of your relationship and marriage. Imagine a 1 inch ball (Ball "A") suspended inside a 3 inch ball ("B") that is suspended inside a 5 inch ball ("C"). Ball "A" consists of the core values of a person ... the very best they have inside them ... how they really feel about the most important things in life ... love, God, marriage, children, family, etc. 'A' values are very deeply seated in the subconscious, and while they manifest consciously (to one degree or another), the important thing to remember is that they are very deep in the subconscious, are more permanent in nature, and change very, very slowly. The primary function of "B" is to protect "A"; its serves much like a modulator between "C" and "A". "C" represents our what-we-are-doing-right-now behavior; it is more topical and flighty, more conscious than subconscious, and is largely temporary in nature.

Now imagine everyone has a Giver side and a Taker side. * One side is caring and considerate and one that seems impossible to get along with. The Giver follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make others happy. It grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us. The Taker follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy. It's the part of you that wants you to be happy, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation. In everyday life, our Givers and Takers usually solve problems together. They recognize our need to give and take simultaneously. For example, when we buy groceries, we give money and take groceries. We don't give more money than the grocer asks for and we don't take groceries without paying for them.

In marriage, sometimes our Giver is more in charge ... we are loving and considerate, and tend to make personal sacrifices to see to it that our spouses are happy and fulfilled, because our Takers are not there to defend our personal interests. We love unconditionally when guided by our Giver, because our Givers do not care how we feel. But when the Taker is in charge, we are rude, demanding and inconsiderate. All we seem to think about is ourselves, and what our spouses can do to make us happy. We expect our spouses to make sacrifices for us, because our Takers don't care how our spouses feel. This is normal behavior in marriage.

Marriage is one of the very few conditions that bring out the pure Giver and Taker in each of us. And that usually makes us seem much crazier than we really are. It is the Taker that ruins marriages. But the Giver plays a very important role in creating the problem. It's the effort of the Giver to give our spouses anything they want that sets up the Taker for it's destructive acts. After you have been giving, giving, giving to your spouse, and receiving little in return, your Taker rises up to straighten out the situation. It sees the unfairness of it all, and steps in to balance the books. But instead of coming to a more balanced arrangement, where you get something for what you give, the Taker just moves the Giver out of the picture altogether. It says, "I've been giving enough, now it's your turn to give." We've all been through it, but it doesn't work. All our Takers do is rouse our spouses' Taker and the first thing we know, we're having a fight.* (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.html Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr. Dr. Harley's website, http://www.marriagebuilders.com and his materials offer valuable help.)

Dr. Harley's Love Bank visualization tool is something like a piggy bank for your relationship with your spouse. Your Giver makes love deposits into the Love Bank, while your Taker makes withdrawals.

B. Knowledge The more knowledge you have about the processes you are dealing with, the higher the likelihood of you saving your spousal relationship and marriage. You know now not to beg or plead; as much as you want to, it only works against you. DB principles are examples of knowledge in action ... things you can do to improve your marital relationship in far less time than would otherwise be required.

It is very important for you to realize you are doing something your spouse is not doing .... you are proactively working on restoring your marriage. You are using very powerful resources to do so. Your spouse is not. You will understand more of what's really doing on in your relationship, than your spouse. Your spouse does not know that. You have a tremendous advantage in your relationship with your spouse. Yeah, I know, it doesn't feel like that to you right now, but it is true. Accept it and go on.

Trust me

C. Patterns of Behavior Patterns of behavior, yours and your spouses, play a very important role in helping you re-establish your marriage.

This Special "As If" Attitude model is built around the following dynamic. Deep inside your spouse, the odds are very high the love and values your marriage was/is based on are still alive and well ... bruised some, to be sure, but far from being gone or dead. You did a number of things that contributed to some layers or films of discontent settling around her/his core, and they prevent her/his love from fully flowing all the time. The confusing words/actions you are experiencing with your spouse right now reflect different moments when the core and discontent elements are coming out. That's why you need to just ignore the discontent stuff; if all goes well, it will continue to disintegrate as the core elements work their way into their natural, more prominent place in his/her life and yours.

Your patterns. You've already demonstrated two different patterns of behavior that have hurt you very much. The first were those you used when you essentially to meet your spouses needs .. they are the primary reason you are having marital problems right now. Those patterns of behavior essentially caused fine layers of 'residue' or film to build up on the outside of your spouses' "A" ... so much so that the feelings inside "A" have a very difficult time coming out. If it isn't too late, and as you will see it probably isn't, enough of those feelings are still alive and wanting to function like and even better than before.

The second set of behaviors were those you showed when you finally realized your relationship and marriage were in very very serious trouble .. it was the words you said and the things you did when the Bomb went off. In both cases, you acted and reacted in the way(s) you thought best ... and they weren't.

Right now, you need to 'crack' your existing mindset so you can face and deal with reality. And, the reality about DBing is that 99% of the outcome likelihood is determined by how well the person follows the DB protocol, to use a medical term. It's flexible and widesweeping enough such that once someone catches on to it, their life changes almost instantly, and an unbelievable peace comes over them. They reach a 'center of gravity' point, a sweet spot, kind of a M A G I C A L space in the center of all of the Special "As If" Attitude stuff. They understand the principles involved, and apply them in a strict but not too-strict sense. They give most of your energy toward their spouse and marriage, but they do it by working on themselves, making themselves a happier and more desirable person, someone who is always doing the 'right' and good things. They no longer feel they don't have any influence on what's happening right now in their most personal relationship. They KNOW they have a whole lot to say about its outcome ... so much say, they become peaceful about themselves and the future ... with or without spouse, and, yes, they still want their spouse and their marriage. And, the truth is that because of what they do, if the marriage makes it ... it will be much better than before.

If you want a tool that can accelerate the 'cracking' process, this one works. Write up what you would recommend to a new poster here, whose circumstances are identical to yours. Describe it using your highest understanding of good DBing. This requires a complete rethink of current situation, exclusively from a DB perspective. It's a headknocker. It does the trick. It works M A G I C

The m a g i c happens real fast when someone can do that. The key really is thinking through and making sure your words and actions are solid DB-wise before you say or do them. To successfully do this depends on the depth of your commitment ... how long it takes you to discard the baggage beliefs you have about where things really are and what you really can do about them.

Baggage beliefs were useful to us at an earlier time, but now prevent us from accepting the beliefs we need now in order to do a better job at whatever it is that God wants us to really do while we are here. They include beliefs about ourselves ... are we what we want and know we need to be ... and then of others ... always mindful we have a Big Time Helper in God, if we keep ourselves and our relationships consistent with being a truly good person ... all the time ....

You spouse's patterns. Two sets of patterns of behavior your spouse has displayed are important here.

1. Early Warning Signals. These are the behaviors you didn't pay enough attention to. They were the road signs a dangerous road lay ahead. From the many hundreds, here are a few typical signals. Spouse indicated s/he wanted to talk about your relationship ... to help improve it. Spouse talked about people you know who were having marital difficulties. Started showing more dissatisfaction and anger than 'normal'. You upset him/her far more easily than usual. Complaints the two of you didn't really talk like you used to. Less touching. Then, maybe none. The automatic 'I love you' wasn't heard as often. And, isn't heard now, except "as a friend".

2. The Bomb and its Aftermath. "Hello!" "Anybody Home?". Brave New World. Armageddon. Some typical signals. Separation, talked or done. Lawyer. Needs time and space for themselves; its important to them. Doesn't want to lie to you, but feels you don't want to hear "the truth". Coldness. Love you, but its not the same. Friend. Doesn't care about your feelings. Selfish. Hate you. Self-centered. Confused. Different friends. Another woman. Another man. Children. Finances. Emotions. Divorce. Indifference. What?

During this period, your spouse may not want to admit to themselves or may not even realize, but the confusion itself means they still are not unsure about leaving you, about letting you go ... some part is still holding on and hoping for a happy ending ...

Detaching spouses go through a series of phases or steps either toward or away from their mates. The series taken by detaching spouses who end up back with and committed to their mates consists of three phases, (i) withdrawn, (ii) transition, and (iii) intimacy. see http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

In order for the Withdrawn spouse to get to Intimacy, s/he must pass through a Transition zone. Lets assume your spouse is in the Withdrawal phase. Right now your spouses' Taker side is trying to convince her/him that you are not worth the effort, and she/him should engage in emotional divorce. Your spouse no longer feel emotionally bonded or in love, and emotional defenses are raised. S/he doesn't want to meet your needs. They are or have given up on you meeting their needs. They want independence. They withdraw -- you essentially withdrew when you earlier failed to recognize and deal with your spouses' early warning signals. There is less care in the relationship. You aren't trusted. You don't have their respect.

You have to use your Special "As If" Attitude to influence your spouses' behavior to the next desirable step ... Transition ... where very carefully both parties start to consciously or subconsciously work to improve the marriage, though the detached spouse may not be aware of it. This is the activity that crosses you from being in the Confusion state to Centering and on into Completion. During this period you and your spouse will likely be communicating in a relative open manner. S/he will be expressing what s/he wants, and you won't like some of that. You will take heart in the fact that most of the most common 'threats' posed by detaching spouses do not come true, and when they do, it just means a little more work is to be done. You don't give up. Some of the needed changes may take a while to show, to express themselves in a clear way. If, after a suitable passage of time, you haven't seen results in one area, change what you are doing ... you are putting together a group of behaviors that are good for you and for your spouse and marriage. How long is a suitable time? Good question. Have observed that if you follow one set of behaviors for 4 to 6 weeks, your spouse will tend to believe 'that's' the way you are. Whenever you reach a point where you are certain your spouse 'knows how you are', then change how you are ... always in a way that is positive for you and the family, but that your spouse may not realize. This is a dynamic thing you are dealing with. That's why it is imperative you have the right tools to work with. If you still don't have the book, get it.

In the Transition zone, conversation ranges from being disrespectful, resentful and even hateful to kind and polite and together-orinted. * Mutual self-centeredness replaces selfishness. Your Taker still tries to see to it that you are treated fairly. The problem, of course, is that your Taker does not know how to treat your spouse with that same fairness. Fairness is viewed by the Taker as getting its way at all costs. Couples are still emotionally bonded and that makes the pain of thoughtlessness even worse. Love units are withdrawn at a very fast rate, and then start to be deposited at a slow but increasing rate. They may still hope that the hurting will stop, but they don't trust each other to stop the madness, and then it does ... a little ... and a little more. * (modified from Harley)

During this period you start meeting your spouses emotional needs again ... a little bit at a time ... then a little more. You don't want your spouse to be fully aware this is what is happening; at first it works on deep subconscious levels. You must calm down his/her Taker. That's where the Special "As If" Attitude comes in. In the Transition Zone, the Taker in you and in your spouse urges you and him/her to return pain whenever its received. You stop the cycle. You don't return pain for pain. You do it in a loving, but not submission way ... you do it with respect for your mate and yourself ... you don't return pain for pain. This is a very important change of behavior that has a major impact on the dynamics of the relationship.

In the Intimacy stage, you and your spouse will have rebonded and will be consciously working on your relationship, with our prayers going with you.

D. Design In designing your Special "As If" Attitude, it must be sensitive to and framed around the emotional needs of your spouse. Affection. Sexual Fulfillment. Conversation. Recreational Companionship. Honesty and Openness. An Attractive Spouse. Financial Support. Domestic Support. Family Commitment. Admiration. see http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

It must include a positive outlook on life; no one likes negativity ... it repels.

It must be compassionate. This is a compassion 'game'. Compassion in that you have to care and act in ways that hurt you to the core, but that are necessary if you are going to allow your real love for your mate to overcome the needs you have right now. Do not blame your spouse for the problems in the marriage. You must ignore some words and actions of your spouse, though they may deeply hurt. You must put your spouse in First Place in a way you've never done before.

The design must balance needs ... needs you have as a person ... needs your spouse has as a person ... and needs of your marriage. You must first think of yourself. You must be of strong and clear mind to most effectively deal with the issues in your marriage. In order for you to do this, you must rest more than you have been, you must eat regular, balanced meals, and you must keep yourself in good physical condition. Most importantly, you must think about your well-being and your future. You will still have a future even if all of your efforts fail. But, odds greatly favor that if you will faithfully adopt and live the Special "As If" Attitude, you will win the full love of your spouse back and your marriage will end up stronger than ever.

Your spouse has two sets of needs that are important right now. The needs s/he feels right now, and her/his core value, "A", needs. You need to meet the needs your spouse has right now ... the ones that reinforce his/her core values ... and ignore the rest. You do this by acting as if you were their friend. Back off from being a spouse ... and let part of you become more of a friend to your spouse. Tell them you just want to be their friend right now. Then back it up. But be a very very special friend ... one who never gets on their butt because they disagree with them. Its O.K. to disagree with something your spouse says or does, "I understand how you feel", "I can relate to that ...", "I can understand why that made you feel that way ... ", etc. You are not saying you agree with their opinion or belief about something, rather that you are agreeing that you understand how they feel. Big difference.

Your Special "As If" Attitude is sensitive to the emotional and physical realities of your particular situation. Here's an example. There are two major phases in developing your Special "As If" Attitude. The first phase is where you put forth a certain type of behavior that is made up of the 'what-you-got-to-do's'. Positive outlook. Being a friend. Those sorts of things. You adopt all of that as soon as you possibly can. And, by "adopt", its meant those attitudes become you ... they become so strong in you that regardless of what your spouse says or does .... regardless .... you keep those attitudes. They serve you in ways that are almost mysterious ... they must be stronger than your weakest point ... they must be stronger than how you normally react to something, including emotionally. They must be stronger than any pain your spouse can inflict on you. You must commit and stick to them. Period.

After you have the core attitudes solidly in place ... and you will know when this occurs ... then, its time for you to shift the management or control of the relationship from your spouse to you.

Right now your spouse thinks they know you -- your patterns of behavior -- so well and they are 'certain' you can't do anything to change the way they feel about you.

* "One of the basic ideas in my book is that if what you're doing isn't working, do something different. A "do your own thing" philosophy is a good one if you have been pleading, begging or trying to control what your spouse is thinking or feeling. If, on the other hand, your spouse has felt unimportant or neglected in the past, your quietly sitting back and not fighting for him/her might be misinterpreted as your not caring enough to do something about his/her actions. You see, what you need to do depends entirely on what you have or haven't been doing in the past. The key is in abandoning strategies that haven't been working and finding something new that does work." * (Michele in a post to someone on this board.)

* Whatever pigeonhole your spouse has placed you into, this is the behavior you must change. You must surprise your spouse by handling the situation differently the next time. Any change might do as long as it is different enough for your spouse to notice, even just a little. Be creative, use your imagination. The single guideline is: The next time you get into the situation where you feel tempted to do the same old thing, do something different. *

You don't make changes in a lot of your behavior, rather you make calculated changes in one or two areas. Then you see what happens. The changes that produce positive reactions in your spouse, you keep. And, remember, 'new and different' is the order of the day. * Lets say you are usually home when your spouse comes in, be gone. Always act happy if you haven't been doing so. Use actions and words that cause your spouse to think you are moving on with your life even if s/he's in a bad mood. Do things without your spouse. Stay clear of your spouse when they are in a bad mood. Try just about anything you haven't tried before and watch the results. * (Michele to someone on this board) If you normally take his/her calls when they come in, don't ... wait two hours if you normally call back immediately; if you normally get back to morning calls in the afternoon, wait until the next morning. If s/he knows you always do one certain thing at one certain time of the week or month, do something else, or nothing. If you always talked and planned on doing something you haven't done, do it ... a class you wanted to take ... a trip you wanted to make, something at home you wanted to fix, etc. This will fulfill a dream of yours and add credibility to the changes you have made. * If you are a laid back person, then fighting for your marriage is what the doctor ordered; if, on the other hand, your spouse perceives you as controlling or strong willed, backing off is exactly what you need to do.* (Michele, in response to a post on this board)

And, very important, the Special "As If" Attitude doesn't get angry. While there well may be a time when it is good for you to act angry with your spouse, its probably best to put off such actions until you really understand what you are doing ... otherwise it can hurt your cause.

Your Special "As If" Attitude doesn't blame your spouse for the condition your marriage is in right now. While both of you may have contributed to its decay, for right now you must recognize you did not properly take care of your spouses' emotional needs. Right now, your spouses' perception of what is wrong with you and your marriage is more important than your perception of what is wrong. The thing about it, though, is that your spouse is more confused than s/he realizes. And, that's why the Special "As If" Attitude pays very close attention to what the spouse says .. and it doesn't believe much of it. You keep the 'good' and acknowledge the rest ... In dealing with your spouse, you reinforce the good ... those words and actions that serve to reinforce core "A" values, without appearing to do so, and you acknowledge -- not accept -- the rest.

Your Special "As If" Attitude does not force anything on your spouse. It starts with you, yourself, and you have to trust s/he will see the changes. This does not happen over night.

Your Special "As If" Attitude is used with everyone, including your spouse, your family, and your friends. Make it a point that friends and family hear your side of the story first and best and most reasonably, if possible. This will tend to reduce the amount of 'support' your spouse gets from those sources. The less support s/he gets, the better it is for you and him/her and the relationship. Few people remain in the same place if they are not supported in that place. If your spouse feels that friends and family 'understand' what s/he is doing, s/he will keep doing it for a much longer time than if they don't.

Your Special "As If" Attitude takes care of you and how you look. If you will step up about a notch in what you wear, this will have a positive impact on your spouse. They don't expect this to happen. When it does, they like what they see ... and the subconscious message you send is one of 'change'. Your self-esteem will improve and you will look better around more people.

Your Special "As If" Attitude includes a positive outlook. Stop worrying about things you can't fix, like the past, and work on the things you can change, the present, the here and now, YOU. It will take time and hard work on your part to show him/her what a great person you are, to remind him/her why s/he loves you, and convince him/her your changes are here to stay. Moping around and feeling sorry about your situation will not convince anyone of anything. If s/he recognizes you have made changes and says the changes have come to late -- you need to recognize what is most important .... s/he is noticing the changes ... ignore the rest ... and just keep working on YOU!

The Special "As If" Attitude model assumes typically * there is a power imbalance in the marriage relationship, where one partner is submissive the other dominant. In a good marriage, there is equality, meaning that partners are able to easily switch back and forth where each is dominant some of the time and the other submissive some of the time. Things are truly shared. When there is an imbalance, the submissive one feels unable to gain equality within the marriage, and goes outside to redress the balance of power. When the submissive partner decides for independence, the dominant one panics and goes for dependence to hold on, resulting in deadlock. The submissive one becomes the deceiver, the dominant the denier. In deception, the spouse becomes a different person doing new things, often finding a new person. The denier holds on by not recognizing the spouse's changes, signals of despair & rebellion, hoping they will go away. It takes two to go the route of divorce, every deceiver needs a denying spouse. Getting out of the marriage is an act of desperation, and often felt as an act of survival. You don't need to divorce to break out of the destructive pattern, just change it. You break with the old -- which is where the problem is -- to do something totally different. *

Your Special "As If" Attitude allows for you to be wrong ... for you to make an error in judgment ... without losing your balance ... without taking backward steps ... or even falling backwards. Do not expect your spouse to SNAP be back. It doesn't happen that way. It happens because what you do leads to some very tiny baby steps, that become toddler steps, that keep changing into longer, more sure-footed strides. And, along the way you will screw up and make a mistake ... some may almost break your heart ... but don't show it to your spouse. Sometimes you may feel depressed; this is normal, but don't let your spouse see or hear you this way. If you will 'get' the real message permeating Michele's materials, it is that everyone makes mistakes, many lead to serious marital situations, and, being human, we can learn how to do better ... how to improve ourselves and all of our relationships, including the one that is the present center of attention ... and actually DO IT!

Some of you may think the adoption and living of this Special "As If" Attitude is too difficult to do. Perhaps because of the pain you feel. The Special "As If" Attitude is all about reducing pain ... and restoring relationships and loves and marriages and families. Use every ounce of will and help from God you can muster, and commit to and DO IT! It works.

Reach deeper within yourself than the pain and hurt you are feeling ... then DO IT!

If you are a woman, imagine the type of woman that is very attractive to a man, a woman with the kind of attitude that is attractive to a man, the kind of woman a great wife would be. If you are a man, imagine the type of man that is very attractive to a woman, a man with the kind of attitude that is attractive to a woman, the kind of man a great husband would be. That image has components that that are different from some of your components right now. Energize that new attitude with powerful positive emotions. You can do it. Practice it and you will get to a point, pretty quickly, where there will be a solid meeting or merger or congruence between your reframed attitude and the emotions that empower it. When you feel it slipping some, then reestablish it the same way you got it there in the first place.

When the 'new' you feels comfortable, go through all of the good and 'bad' stuff that can happen with your spouse. Specific things. Decide with your Special "As If" Attitude how you will deal with those things if they happen. Of course, you will use your highest understanding of the DB principles when you address stuff that might happen. The net effect will be that you definitely will worry less, and worry contributes to ambiguity and poor decisions. You will worry less because you will have a much more accurate understanding of what is really going on in your relationship -- odds greatly favor it isn't near as bleak as it may appear -- and you will know you are dealing with it in a way that works. And, you will be happier because you will know down deep that you are doing the stuff that is best for you, and for your spouse and the marriage. Oh, a minor point -- this will also have a tremendous impact on your spouse. It will tend to drive him or her a little (more) nuts for a bit, when s/he finds that various reactions s/he has learned to expect from you don't happen, and instead something fresh and clean and pure does. This works on a number of levels, at the same time.

Remember, the outlook is not as bleak as you think -- once you understand the book, read the forums suggested to you along with a few hundred of the posts here, you will know that is the truth. The more you learn, the more you will understand how and why to always keep the right attitude. The more you learn, the less stress and anxiety you will feel, while you really work on improving your marriage.

One more thing ... if you haven't forgiven your spouse for the pain they have caused you, DO IT!

Of course there is NO guarantee, that your spouse will come back. But, it is very effective in putting you in control of your feelings. It most certainly will change the dynamics of your relationship, guaranteed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


weird, I just realized an earlier post is not here. I don't know what happens to them. I wanted to be sure and record an incident here from this evening. It was so great! H stopped in my office on his way out....came right over and took me in his arms, hugged me and kissed me. Of course I hugged back, told him ILY and that I'd been thinking of him. Told him that I liked it when he came in and hugged me like that, he said "I'm glad you like it"....I told him it was so nice I could hardly believe it, and he said "I guess you'll just have to get used to it" . It was so warm and sincere, and NICE, it just made my heart warm, and feel like all this agonizing effort is going to pay off in the long run, and will have been worth it.

With that, I'm going home!
© DivorceBusting.com