Link to my previous threads:
1/ - DivorceBusting.com (My Story P1...Survival of the MLC Madness)
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=63078&Number=2904612#Post29046122/ My Story P2...Acceptance of the MLC Madness - DivorceBusting.com
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2918764#Post29187643/ My Story P3...Acceptance of the MLC Madness - DivorceBusting.com
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2923530&#Post29235304/ My Story P4...Acceptance of the MLC Madness - DivorceBusting.com
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2928892&#Post2928892Short summary:
BD April 2019 with the famous ILYBNILWY.
Started an affair a few weeks before that timing. Immediately found out. Lying, spewing, rewriting of history, wanting both of us, etc. until I kicked him out 09/2019. Came back 2 months later, totally broken. (way too soon)
Final break-up with OW1 02/2020.
Home from 02/2020 until 08/2020. Deep outward depression, first signs of acknowledgement that something is really wrong with him. Still shows a lot of running behavior such as drinking heavily.
Accepts new job abroad since 04/2020, working from home since COVID, asked him to leave for the other country in 08/2020 since behavior is extremely bad for myself and my 3 boys, all teenagers.
From 09/2020 until 12/2020 slightly showing improvement whilst abroad, new running behavior...working out (sports) to an extreme level.
As from 12/2020 clear set-back into tunnel, start of OW2 but denies it.
01/2021 - 11/2021: In January he informs me that OW1 passed away (suicide), also asked for divorce, I agree. Still lives abroad and has R with OW2, denies the R until 09/2021.
Clinging towards me and the boys remains present at all times.
10/2021 until 02/2022: Break-up with OW2 in November, divorce final, returns home, starts doing some work on himself and suddenly set back in tunnel again.
02/2022: Goes back to OW2. I finally let go in full. No contact anymore with me nor with the kids. House is for sale. I’m done.
When I look back at the last 3 years of my life with EXH and his MLC and all the events that have happened, I can only conclude that there is a clear looping in the entire process.
EXH has effectively been gone 3 times in total, and each time it has been my initiative to make him leave.
Every time he was completely broken when he came back (presumably due to the breakups with the OW’s), this happened 2 times with OW1 and 1 time with OW2. During the time he was at home he realized very well what was wrong with him and wanted to try to work on himself, but couldn't handle it, so each time he went back into the tunnel.
I thought it was important to show to new people who come here to tell their story and have to deal with an MLC spouse that this really shows that this crisis goes on for years, that you have absolutely no control over it and that the only thing you can do is let it go as much as possible and live your own life without them. Many times you think they are on their way back, that improvement is in sight, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Therefore, focus on yourself, and definitely on your children, for it is they who need you very much through this process. If even we don't understand what is happening, what impact does this have on them, to see 1 of their parents change like this.
Therefore again, think of yourself first! What do you want? What makes it possible to feel the pain as little as possible?
Yes, it is a very long and difficult road that we must travel, a tunnel which is involuntarily created for us and there is no way around it, we unfortunately have to go through it as well, but know that there is light at the end of this tunnel. And that end is in sight when one learns to let it go in full.
Everyone has their own pace for this and each need to find his way how to come to this phase.
I can only conclude that it is much easier if they effectively leave the house, an in-home MLC'er is much harder to let go than an MLC'er who does not actually stay lives with you.
Some info I wanted to get out of my system on a beautiful Sunday.
Maybe it can be of help to anybody here, knowing you are not alone.
Good Morning Eagle
Well said. It’s always helped me to get stuff out of my system as well. To say it aloud here as it were. Makes it more real, being heard by those who understand.
You are a fine example for those who will follow.
…think of yourself first! What do you want? What makes it possible to feel the pain as little as possible?
Yes. LBS, especially the new ones, you are the most important person in your process. Everyone needs to feel their pain, and hopefully can heed some advice to not prolong it.
…focus on yourself, and definitely on your children, for it is they who need you very much through this process. If even we don't understand what is happening, what impact does this have on them, to see 1 of their parents change like this.
This situation is very hard on children. MLCers usually become terrible parents. Have faith, one strong stable parent is enough. Be their rock, their role model; as you have been.
Yes, it is a very long and difficult road that we must travel, a tunnel which is involuntarily created for us and there is no way around it, we unfortunately have to go through it as well, but know that there is light at the end of this tunnel. And that end is in sight when one learns to let it go in full.
Everyone has their own pace for this and each need to find [their] way how to come to this phase.
That is a great truth of the journey of the LBS.
We have a road to travel, as much as our spouse does. We all find our way, in our time. How clearly and quickly we see the light at the end of the tunnel depends upon lots of factors.
Everyone needs a certain amount of understanding, of rationalizing, to let go. Letting go in full, requires understanding and compassion and empathy and forgiving. To see clearly and be able to step away in a loving manner.
Some info I wanted to get out of my system on a beautiful Sunday.
Maybe it can be of help to anybody here, knowing you are not alone.
I am proud of you Eagle, and how you have walked your path.
You story and wisdom is a comfort to many people. And yes, knowing one is not alone in their journey is value beyond measure.
Welcome to the next stage. To the next chapter of your life. The future is still unknown and unwritten, however you have the pen firmly within your hand. Write big and bold. Write from your soul. Live great!
It is a beautiful sunny Sunday here as well, and I absolutely enjoyed reading your update.
D
Dear DB friends,
Wanted quickly to let you know that today it was the house-sale and I’m so excited to inform you that I received an offer way above the target price! So fantastic news, it seems karma has been with me today.
Next week signing of the paperwork, yet another chapter to leave behind and up to a new experience.
I will be celebrating tonight with my family.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Congrats Eagle3! So happy for your good news.
Dear DB friends,
It's been awhile since I've posted. I do follow the threads on a very regular basis but have taken some more time for myself, hence the absence.
It has also been quite busy since the sale of the house. This is because of course I had to look for a new home. And I have found a beautiful one! It's well within my budget, in a super cool location for myself and the kids, and I can make the necessary adjustments to my own taste. I will also have some nice savings to offer my children a similar lifestyle, and to do the trips I envisioned as long as they still live at home. And that means an awful lot to me.
The children are doing very well mentally. They feel better and better and I see the joy in their eyes again, the way they smile, they feel free and seem burdenless now. We also do a lot of things together. Twins14 still go to a psychologist which is really good for them (in regards to learning to set boundaries), S17 does not want this but in the meantime has a girlfriend who is experiencing a similar scenario with her father (no MLC, but pure narcissist) and can talk openly about this with her which he also does a lot now. He is also in a much better place, although there is still work to be done on his attitude in school. But we'll get there too.
They have cut all contact with their father at this time. (for about 2 months now) However, I leave them free to do whatever they want, they decide for themselves whether or not they wish to make contact again.
I am also doing well. I go to a therapist every two weeks and we click very well.
I've let go, but not completely yet, but I accept this and the future will show when I'm ready to let it go completely.
We have a road to travel, as much as our spouse does. We all find our way, in our time. How clearly and quickly we see the light at the end of the tunnel depends upon lots of factors.
Everyone needs a certain amount of understanding, or rationalizing, to let go. Letting go in full, requires understanding and compassion and empathy and forgiving. To see clearly and be able to step away in a loving manner. D
Here you say it very clearly D. I've already let go to a great extent, I clearly see the light at the end of the tunnel but I haven't completely worked it out yet.
I know this because I have moments where I can still be mad at him. Angry at what he did to the children, angry at what he did to me.
I can still be sad when I hear things. Sad to hear that he is going on a trip with OW2, sad because he starts sending pictures of them 2 to the family or to his friend, sad because he intends to introduce OW2 to his relatives.
I can still be very curious about him. When I hear that he's been around people I'm very close to (my best friend, his stepfather, his father), I tend to ask what he looks like, what he said, if he seems happy, if he is still drinking that much...(basically, is he still in crisis?)
Some people go along with it, others say it's better not to ask, because it would hurt me too much.
Know that I'm not going to cry anymore, I'm not going to lie awake anymore about all these things, but it still makes me nervous, uncomfortable actually for a certian amount of time.
However, EXH is not aware of this. He has no idea how I currently feel.
I don't have any contact with him, outside of the business matters. He also doesn't seek much contact. He called once, I didn't answer. Afterwards I messaged to say I was busy and that he could only call from a certain hour if he needed to speak to me urgently, he never called back. Afterwards I heard that he also sent a message to his brother and sister that evening to apologize, so clearly another brief moment of clarity, which probably went back just as quickly. He has monstered 1 time via messages (last week). I didn't answer.
He slowly reconnects with his father although his father doesn't trust the situation yet. EXH told him that he has been wrong, but at the same time he shows huge frustrations that the children don't want anything to do with him anymore. He is disappointed in them, but at the same time disappointed in himself, hence the great frustration.
I wonder how long it will take that I still have this interest in him.
Ideally, I'd like to stop getting these negative feelings (that nervousness, that uneasiness) when I hear about him, that I can just hear it but that I simply can let it go over me.
Is this ever going to come?
Hi Eagle,
I read once that it takes about 1 year for every 4 years you were together with someone to be completely over them. Based on your signature it will take about 5 years. Doesn't mean you will sit and pine for them it just means that in 5 years and you can hear anything about them and it won't effect you at all.
Hi Eagle,
I’m glad you are doing well! I hear you on the uneasiness and the interest in him. I imagine that I will be feeling similarly about my STBXH when I get to where you are. I am not sure that I could ever be at a stage where hearing about them will have no effect at all (like LH says). I’m not sure it’s easily explained in words why. And is that such a bad thing…something you are supposed to strive for? I don’t think it has to be. At least as long as it’s not something that is holding you back in any way.
Did you buy the beautiful new home you mentioned? Or are you saying you found one to make an offer on? Either way, it sounds like a perfect place for you and the kids. I’m so happy for you!
El
i dunno. I read what LH posted. I've heard that it takes 1/2 the time again for one to move on, so for a 20 year relationship, 10 years to get over it.
My own belief is that it's as individual as each relationship. I know for me, I couldn't look at my exh. I literally could not look at him. Made taking photos at son's graduation and confirmation difficult, to say the least.
I can see photos of him now without flinching or looking away. I don't care to know about the details of his life. He's due to pop in with a text message soon, because son isn't responding to him. When that happens, after about two months of it he will reach out to me via text to ask how our son is. I usually respond he's fine I will ask him to contact you.
It'll be easier now that you're in a new space and have some distance. xoxoxo
Good Morning Eagle
Wonderful news finding a house. And yes, location is so important. Glad it fits into your budget well and allows trips and life’s pleasures.
I’m happy the kids are doing well. Pretty understandable them cutting off communication with Dad for a while. Sounds like they are all speaking about their feelings and such with IC, girlfriend, and you - and that is very good indeed.
I wonder how long it will take that I still have this interest in him.
Ideally, I'd like to stop getting these negative feelings (that nervousness, that uneasiness) when I hear about him, that I can just hear it but that I simply can let it go over me.
Is this ever going to come?
There are various ideas and guidelines regarding timelines. I’ve heard 1 year for every 4-6 years of relationship. I’ve also read that for serious long term marriage one never completely “gets over it”. However, as LH stated, you don’t sit around pinning for them.
I find I don’t worry about what (or who) J is doing anymore. I used to have those sad and a bit of the angry feelings when I heard the stories of how well she was doing. Coming up on 5 years and much has changed - with me. Of course, my situation is completely no contact. J is a vanisher. Her and I haven’t spoke since our few sentences at daughter’s graduation two years ago. Such a thing does modify the ratio of 1 to 4 methinks.
My son’s upcoming wedding will place J and I face to face for a day. I’ll get to test a few theories and will undoubtedly learn some more. I’m actually looking forward to it. Looking forward to seeing what, if anything, gets stirred up from within me.
So, I guess, yes it does arrive. The negative feelings do cease. My goodness, I remember how they were a non ending scream, then became a dull roar, then a voice once and a while, then a whisper, and now pretty much absent. BTW, that silence of our feelings takes some getting used to as well.
My latest news regarding J/XW I didn’t even report here. The wedding dress shopping day with all the girls. I heard about it, and that was that.
My kids have all found an equilibrium between Mom and themselves. The kids are doing fine, are happy and healthy. They have boundaries. They understand. They forgive. They are living good lives. And for the most part, I think their relationships with their Mom is somewhat repairing. She is after all their Mom, so a good thing.
Anyhow, it’s a journey. Hard to give a timeline to such a nebulous path. One day we just realize where we are and how far we have come. And you my dear have come a very far, and walked it so well.
D
I read once that it takes about 1 year for every 4 years you were together with someone to be completely over them. Based on your signature it will take about 5 years. Doesn't mean you will sit and pine for them it just means that in 5 years and you can hear anything about them and it won't effect you at all.
Good to know LH. Thanks for this. Hope this counts from BD and not from date of D. LOL
This would mean within 2 years I will be free in full.
I am not sure that I could ever be at a stage where hearing about them will have no effect at all (like LH says). I’m not sure it’s easily explained in words why. And is that such a bad thing…something you are supposed to strive for? I don’t think it has to be. At least as long as it’s not something that is holding you back in any way.El
Hi EL, TBH, yes, I really want to get to a point where it doesn’t affect me, nor the wanting to know what is going on with him. I want to get rid of the nervous, anxious feelings. I’ve never had this in my entire life, only the past years, although much less now, but still I really hate it. I won’t say it’s holding me back but it’s not a nice feeling to have. I don’t want him to have this power over me anymore. He doesn’t deserve it.
Did you buy the beautiful new home you mentioned? Or are you saying you found one to make an offer on? Either way, it sounds like a perfect place for you and the kids. I’m so happy for you!El
I did buy the place! Moving in the end of July!
Bttrfly and DnJ, thanks for your input. Seems there is indeed hope that this too will pass which is good to know.
Just had to send a message to EXH.
We still had 2 joint Mastercards linked to our common account. I, from my side had blocked them, I asked him to do the same, he didn’t. He has started using these again. Result, I see all his spendings on OW2 (hotels they are staying at, restaurants, pubs, etc.)
Asked him politely to put them on his name and link them to his own account, this way I can’t see this anymore. Better not to know. Anyway, hope he does this immediately.
The last few days EXH is unfortunately more present in my mind.
Seeing the spendings that he was doing with OW2 again, the fact that he would most probably take her to his family for the first time.
Today it is Mother's Day. EXH's mother had invited all her children for brunch at a restaurant. I had asked our children if they wanted to go too but they refused as their father was going to be there. I kindly informed her that the children were not going to be there, and that it would better to do this another time with them. Got no response from her.
Apparently she's obsessed with OW2 to meet her and so she had insisted that she would come along.
SIL confirmed to me today that she was actually there...
I won't lie, something snapped inside me and I've cried, cried like I haven't cried in months anymore.
Why the hell does this still hurt me so much?
I have a very close relationship with all of his family (with the exception of MIL who I have more or less banned since last year due to her sociopathic behaviour)
I can't seem to get over the fact that I have now been permanently replaced. Not in their eyes of course, I know they will always be in my lives, they are truly good people, but it will never be the way it was and that hurts, much more then I suspected.
To me this feels like the final end, there is no way back now. I always felt that he was with those OWs to make himself feel better, that they were a symptom of his mental health issues. He's also always kept his OWs hidden from everyone, and to me this was a sign that he didn't loose it completely, that he still cared about our feelings, so why bring her out now?
{{{{{{{Eagle}}}}}}}
It hurts because you love, deeply, and it's ok to hurt. Sounds like this was engineered by your MIL, the sociopath. Take it from its true source.
The family you were close to is still there. We each, I think, have our breaking point. For me, it was that my exh didn't stop our divorce, which could have happened any time in the 120 day waiting period in our state. For you, it seems that this is it. Of course when one hits a breaking point one does just that, breaks a little bit - crying being the natural response. I wish I was close enough to make you a cup of tea and give you a long hug.
You will be ok. You will be better than ok. You and the various members of your exh's family will find a new way to be in each other's lives, and yes, it hurts to let the old way go. Feel the pain, know that the only way through it is to feel it and let it go.
Happy Mother's Day, my dear. You are a champion. Do not forget that.
xoxoxo
Happy Mother’s Day Eagle
(((Hugs)))
I’m sorry you are suffering. The feeling of being replaced does hurt so very much.
I always felt that he was with those OWs to make himself feel better, that they were a symptom of his mental health issues. He's also always kept his OWs hidden from everyone, and to me this was a sign that he didn't loose it completely, that he still cared about our feelings, so why bring her out now?
H (G) has always flipped and flopped about. He is much more a boomerang than vanisher for sure. So why bring her out, because her purpose isn’t being fulfilled. The reason she exists ain’t working out, so he ramps things up. He is running and he needs a better fix/jolt.
It’s still about him. Keeping her hidden away or flaunting her - all about him. No need to personally take on anything due to their actions and behaviours, for as it’s always been she is a symptom.
To me this feels like the final end, there is no way back now.
Yes, we do get to that feeling. I believe that has to come as acceptance and letting go becomes.
Is it the truly the end? Perhaps. Perhaps not. The M is dead. Anything would need to be new.
Is there no way back now? No. People can and do (although it is difficult and therefore rare) change. However, the feeling finality of it is about you, not H.
That finality is part of acceptance. Emotional understanding and accepting the loss and the end.
Anything (if there is anything) going forward, reconciling to friends to acquaintances will be new. That was a hard lesson for me to figure out. And it brought such peace when I did.
I’m sorry this all stirred up on Mother’s Day.
As bttrfly said, you are a champion!
D
H (G) has always flipped and flopped about. He is much more a boomerang than vanisher for sure. So why bring her out, because her purpose isn’t being fulfilled. The reason she exists ain’t working out, so he ramps things up. He is running and he needs a better fix/jolt.
It’s still about him. Keeping her hidden away or flaunting her - all about him. No need to personally take on anything due to their actions and behaviours, for as it’s always been she is a symptom
As always your words give me great peace and comfort. Thanks for this.
Anything (if there is anything) going forward, reconciling to friends to acquaintances will be new. That was a hard lesson for me to figure out. And it brought such peace when I did
I'm sorry but I don't understand this very well. Can you explain what you mean with this?
I’m sorry this all stirred up on Mother’s Day.
Well, he is pretty good at destroying Mother's Day. Right after BD, in May 2019, I found the first conversations on his phone with OW1, chit-chatting about our children with her. A day which I will never forget for the rest of my life.
The 2nd he was completely drunk, the 3rd year we had a good one as he wasn't living in the house anymore, the 4th being today.
I wish I was close enough to make you a cup of tea and give you a long hug.
You would me more than welcome...and I just love tea.
Thx for your kind words. xxx
Hello Eagle
Anything (if there is anything) going forward, reconciling to friends to acquaintances will be new. That was a hard lesson for me to figure out. And it brought such peace when I did.
I'm sorry but I don't understand this very well. Can you explain what you mean with this?
Certainly.
For a long time I hung on J. To who she was. The mother she was. The wife she was. The person in my mind.
There is a reality, yet we all craft our version or view of it through our senses. Reality exists, yet we only perceive it within our mind. And it’s more than that, we can only perceive it within our mind. Therefore we all have a different reality. And of course, some - like our crisis spouses - have a very different reality crafted.
My reality of J needed altering. Letting go. Reshaping. Accepting.
This alteration of J affected my minds reality of our marriage, relationship, etc.
We all receive plenty of feedback from life and others which corroborates or conflicts with our held views of reality. A gentle and peaceful and low conflict life is a pretty good indication you are seeing/crafting things reasonably authentically.
One who twists reality, lies, cheats, and such will suffer a comeuppance. One can twist reality for only so long before it snaps back. And when reality snaps back one can find themselves so very lost. One who lies and then believes their own lies will have no life line back to what is real. Over and over life’s feedback will slam them around, while they flounder unable to emerge from their abyss.
With this view in mind: My marriage is dead. J, the gal I knew, is gone. I don’t know J, this different person. Years have passed. Both her and I are different. I have grown. I have deeper convictions. It follows she will have changed. Each of us would need to get to know the other, no matter what level of relationship we might seek.
There is an incredible peace realizing such an underlining view of reality. Or more accurately, realizing that one cannot know reality. One cannot, one can only interpret. And we get that incorrect most of the time.
My example from a previous post. We can hear a musical chord. Say C, E, and G. We can hear all three notes and hear the C Major chord they produce.
However, when we mix red and green light we get yellow. We do not see the red nor green, only the resultant yellow. And that yellow is not yellow. The wave is a non sinusoidal addition of red and green light, it is not the same as a yellow light source with a yellow frequency. Detector can easily “see” that, we cannot. Wild. Consider that, most everything we see is not as it truly is.
Hence, reality is subject to one’s perception and interpretation. And I find comfort in that. It explains so much strife between people and their viewpoints - both are right. Well actually, both are wrong. Lol. We are always seeing not as it truly is, and need to strive to see the truth around us.
That’s only two of our senses or inputs. The remainder are just as subjective and crafting.
By the way, I also found this a pretty good way to find forgiveness and empathy and compassion and so on.
Hope that made sense. I did kind of go off on a tangent a bit.
D
Oh Eagle,
I’m sorry…and I wish I could just hug you. It’s like salt on an open wound.
I agree with DnJ that things are not always as they appear. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t sting.
I wonder if he was sloppy with the card charges or if he is looking for that jolt…that jolt in a reaction from you that you still care? For his own ego or selfishness? As for your MIL, it doesn’t sound like she is the one you should look to for the reality of the situation (considering you mention past issues and distance). It might be hard to explain her rationale, and it could be very selfish and have nothing to do with you. I know it still hurts, but maybe feeling the love and connection you have with the rest of the family will help you to focus less on your MIL and the perceived replacing of you? I suspect that their opinions matter more and you feel safe in their feelings for you?
I struggled with feeling replaced as well when I heard that my STBXH brought OW to meet the family around the holidays. But later, I found out that even though they were polite and let her in for STBXHs sake, they also were curious and wanted to see for themselves if she was worthy…and in the end, they told me that she doesn’t compare. But of course this was months after I had my big cry over it suspecting that I’d been replaced. I’m even divorced yet and she was doing holidays with the family! Ugh. So again, perceptions can vary and in the end, it’s your relationships that you maintain with the family yourself that matter the most.
Sending you hugs. And congratulations on the house!
El
Hi Eagle. How are you? I was thinking of you and wondering if you are okay.
((Hugs))
El
Dear El,
Thank you for checking in on me.
I wonder if he was sloppy with the card charges or if he is looking for that jolt…that jolt in a reaction from you that you still care? For his own ego or selfishness? As for your MIL, it doesn’t sound like she is the one you should look to for the reality of the situation (considering you mention past issues and distance). It might be hard to explain her rationale, and it could be very selfish and have nothing to do with you. I know it still hurts, but maybe feeling the love and connection you have with the rest of the family will help you to focus less on your MIL and the perceived replacing of you? I suspect that their opinions matter more and you feel safe in their feelings for you?
TBH, don't know and don't care. I only did what I thought was good for me, and that is letting him know I don't want anything to do with that anymore. In regards to MIL, she really is a lost, bitter and tormented soul. And I'm glad I don't have to deal with her anymore. She caused enough pain.
Good afternoon,
I finally got the final date when I can move into my new home!
As from the beginning of July I am officially the sole owner of a beautiful home and the decorating can begin. I look forward to it.
Lately I've been getting a lot of compliments on how good I look. (I’m bragging here, LOL)
Normally I don't pay much attention to that, but I have to admit, it feels good.
The reason is because of course I do a lot of sports since a year and this pays off, but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.
It isn't always easy, but luckily the huge emotions are limited to when I'm at the therapist and has little to no effect outside of that.
I've also been thinking a lot about my past (both with EXH and without EXH), my present and my future. I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.
So I can get up in the morning, get ready and think about EXH and the past we had together and how I still miss it. In the car I then think about the fact that this past is effectively the past and that I must be happy that I no longer have to be with a person who would never have interested me in the first place in the form of who he is today.
And then I feel genuinely happy. Sincerely happy for what I have in my life today.
Would this be the first stage of acceptance?
As you know, our S's had no contact at all with EXH until recently. Twin S14 1 wants absolutely nothing to do with his father and he does not deviate from that today. EXH therefore no longer sends him messages. Twin S14 2 has always replied when his father sent him a message, but has said so far that he is not yet ready for meeting up with his dad in person.
However, S17 has taken the plunge. He is the one who looked up to his father immensely and somehow still believes that his nice personality is still there somewhere, although it is not coming to the surface today. (is his perfect right to believe that, even though it's been causing him a lot of pain in recent years)
This was in response to an email I sent to EXH about S17.
I waited a long time and hesitated to do this, but I did. As you know, S17 is having a very hard time in his final year. He rebels (not at home, but at school) and EXH found out about this through some e-mails sent by the school. I have been talking to both son and school for weeks and we are making progress. EXH, however, wanted to talk to me about that situation which I initially brushed off (albeit because, see my previous posts, when he last left he made it clear to the children and me that he didn’t want to be involved in their education anymore as this was too difficult to handle for him…)
But forgiving as we are I sent him an email. Not for him, but for myself and for S17 in which I gave a clear explanation of the facts but where I have emphasized the following:
“It's easy to judge
It's more difficult to understand.
Understanding requires compassion, patience, and a willingness to believe that good hearts sometimes choose poor methods.
Through judging, we separate
Through understanding, we grow.”
This is because the last few years EXH was just really hard on them about their studies, their grades, and never effectively asked about their personal lives, it was always about performance, performance, performance and judging when not good. (and if it was good no compliments were made)
Short response from EXH the next day: your mail makes sense to me, I'll do something with it.
Hence the question whether S17 wanted to meet. And S17 agreed.
I won't go into too much detail about it but S17 was completely drunk when he got home (very unlikely for you as this is not allowed in your country, relatively possible with us as you can legally drink from 16 years old)
BUT of course absolutely not normal for a father to do this with his oldest son after no contact for 3 months (and ever at that age). Complete manipulation of son, asked about our new home, my current activities, activities of Twins14, has praised him into heaven how good he is and made promises (trying to buy love) which has a huge influence on S17.
I know it's up to S17 to find his way with his father. I was very angry about the fact that he drove home in a drunken state with his bike (EXH just let him leave like this) but unfortunately I have little influence on what has been said. As this has been going on for several years now, he most probably will be banging his head against a stone wall again and Mom will have to be there to catch him.
I assume it is what it is…EXH still lost in the MLC madness and wants to have control over our lives through S17 who takes the bait at the moment.
I just peeped in on the boards right when you posted this Eagle. I want to send you a huge hug and a lot of love. I loved reading about your growing self awareness, your conversations with yourself in the car -- I do that too all the time though I often talk to God, it helps me direct my thoughts toward something better than me!
About the rest of your post -- I was reading along sort of normally but thinking about all the checkmarks of NPD your description was hitting. When I got to the drunk part, my jaw literally dropped and I felt like crying. Thinking of your son on his bike on the way home, drunk and confused in his heart even if he didn't realize it, that just kills me. I work with teens and just love their souls so much, they are almost always in so much pain just from waking up into this world, even without the terrors inflicted by the MLCer! I don't care if it's legal there, that is so messed up. My H is also an alcoholic and would do that the first second he could, he already encouraged my D to drink wine when she was like 10 and drinks a bottle or more of wine in front of her everytime they are together.
Is S17 in therapy? I am the child of a family that literally had three people with cluster B disorders, two diagnosed and one never diagnosed -- my mom, my brother and my father. My fear now is that my kids will be drawn to marry such a person, just as I was, without having any idea that that was driving their attraction, so I just focus on trying to get them to get a clarity of mind and a self-confidence I never had. I think the only hope for our kids is to process everything and be able to see more clearly, I didn't do that and looking back, it's astonishing how clear it is that I married my wounds and then had no idea that the way my H treated me was not normal or okay, even long before BD, maybe from the earliest days of our dating. So that would be my advice to you, get those kids into therapy so that they can process this pain and understand boundaries and what kind of relationships they should seek in this world. Even before H, all of my relationships followed this pattern.
I want to paste something below about children with an NPD parent. Do some research on that if you haven't already, it will help you understand what your child is going to face and what he will need to do to heal. I assure you it's all real, this describes my upbringing and the effect it had on me exactly, just didn't understand until very recently that the way I felt and functioned was not normal. I even believe that my cancer was tied to this chronic stress.
Lots of love to you and especially to your sons. Thank god they have you to bring light into their lives.
6 Common Traits of a Narcissistic Parent and The Trauma Symptoms They Can Cause
1. Self-Importance
The word that comes to mind is “grandiose.” The narcissistic parent will exaggerate and lie about themselves. They’ll demand your attention while neglecting your needs. Worse, they often view their child’s increasing independence and autonomy as a threat to their own interests. If so, they likely squelched and sidelined your talents, interests, and growth and kept the focus on their dreams.
Being raised around someone who takes up all the psychic space can lead a person to feel chronic shame, worthlessness and unimportance.
2. No Respect For Boundaries.
A narcissist seems incapable of recognizing that other people have needs. As a result, they will not respect the boundaries their child sets. In fact, a narcissistic parent is adept at making their kid feel guilty for even daring to set a healthy boundary. Their wishes and demands are framed as something you owe them and should want to do. Guilt and manipulation are common ways that your boundaries are breached.
In a sense, boundary issues are the hallmark of early trauma. Inadequate boundaries are one of the most challenging traits of children with narcissistic parents. Many of my clients have struggled to strengthen weak, wobbly or non-existent boundaries. Others were at the opposite end of the spectrum. They needed help letting down their walls and allowing someone in. After what they endured, trust in others did not come so easy.
3. Communication as Warfare
To put it mildly, you will not experience honest communication from a narcissistic parent. For years, your mother or father may make it a habit to put you down, making it clear that they are superior and in control. They will be inappropriately or hurtfully competitive, persistently critical, unfavorable comparisons, subtly humiliating, and more.
Over time, the way they invalidate you and keep you off balance wears down your self-esteem. It robs your relationship, such that it is, of genuine positivity. Instead, you feel confused, rejected, and traumatized by the lack of love and acceptance. Have you experienced a parent who
Talks over you
Makes every conversation about them
Avoids topics of importance to you
Assumes dominant and threatening postures
Never asks about you
Doesn’t listen
Interrogates you
A major therapeutic task for many of my clients has been to learn how to break the deeply ingrained survival response of fawning. This is the tendency to make yourself invisible and focus on meeting the needs of others. It’s a survival strategy that evolves out of our nervous system’s natural ability to submit and withdraw when we feel we are in the presence of a predator and are facing mortal danger.
Other patients I’ve worked with were stuck in constant battle. They sought my help because they had to learn to disengage their fight response. Our therapeutic work involved softening their chronic defensiveness and belligerence. It was making them miserable..
4. Gaslighting
Don’t expect your narcissistic parent to own up to a mistake. They will manipulate you into believing you either misunderstood or made up the whole thing. By the end of the discussion, they may even have you apologizing.
While gaslighting is a term that is being bandied about these days, it’s a real thing. The lack of insight that a narcissist displays is very real and it’s effects can linger for years. For many of my clients, growing up with parents who played mind games resulted in endless bouts of self doubt and genuine confusion about their perceptions. Their lack of self confidence led to chronic difficulty making decisions. Haunted by aloneness, many felt as if no one could understand or believe their story.
Support and encouragement helped them to learn to trust themselves and the safe people in their lives.
5. Playing the Victim
Expect to be provoked into confrontations. The moment you show anger, your narcissistic parent will likely accuse you of attacking them. It’s also very likely they will accuse you of being abusive yourself. Often very narcissistic people will punish you by mounting a smear campaign against you. They may badmouth you and try to damage your reputation. This effectively keeps you quiet, frustrated, and prone to doing their bidding for the sake of peace.
Remember the saying, “hate usually comes from below?” This means that the reason the narcissist lashes out is because they are desperately trying to ward off deep feelings of shame in themselves. One client put it like this “This has left me with a bucket of emotional slime that I’ve spent years wiping off me”. That slime included; chronic anger, helplessness and fear.
6. Abusive Behavior and Neglect
Aside from the more covert manipulation listed above, a narcissistic parent will also engage in openly abusive behavior. Without a hint of compassion or empathy, they may subject you to mockery, humiliation, and physical threats or violence and neglect.
This type of behavior led my clients to battle some of the more classic symptoms of complex traumatic stress disorder. The common symptoms have included:
Emotional numbing
Dissociation
Distrust and fear in relationships
Emotional regulations problems.
Flashbacks- Emotional and physical
Difficulty with relationships
Self loathing- and a particularly vicious inner critic.
Arousal dysregulation of the nervous system. (problems with fight, flight, freeze, submit)
Stress related health problems
Good Morning Eagle
Congratulations! Sole owner of your new home. How wonderful.
Lately I've been getting a lot of compliments on how good I look. (I’m bragging here, LOL)
Normally I don't pay much attention to that, but I have to admit, it feels good.
The reason is because of course I do a lot of sports since a year and this pays off, but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.
Excellent!
Those compliments do feel good. And you are correct, beauty is not skin deep. Beautiful inside radiates.
I've also been thinking a lot about my past (both with EXH and without EXH), my present and my future. I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.
So I can get up in the morning, get ready and think about EXH and the past we had together and how I still miss it. In the car I then think about the fact that this past is effectively the past and that I must be happy that I no longer have to be with a person who would never have interested me in the first place in the form of who he is today.
And then I feel genuinely happy. Sincerely happy for what I have in my life today.
Would this be the first stage of acceptance?
Yes. That is what acceptance feels like.
I suspect you can’t quite put your finger on where that feeling comes from. That “I’m sincerely happy” feeling. If you consider it, you feel this happiness by letting go, realizing, and in short accepting the past. Your beliefs influence and create these feelings of happy and joy and contentment.
Feelings are fleeting. Acceptances is not.
Grief is an emotional journey. Acceptance is emotional understanding.
Acceptance’s foundation is one’s convictions. Build well. Strengthen that which serves, craft that which you aspire to, and discard that which doesn’t serve.
When we start out, we all
feel believe we cannot do this alone. That misguided belief is unrealized or hidden within our emotions and pain. Feelings that our convictions are reenforcing and influencing. Slowly, we alter our views and values and beliefs; and we feel differently. We accept.
I spend a lot of time in the car for work and I notice that I am negotiating/bargaining a lot with my own thoughts.
I really like this piece. I spend a lot of time commuting as well. Time well spent “talking to myself”. Lol
Re negotiating/bargaining: This is part the stage of grief. Those huge emotions which you discuss with the therapist. One’s journey is multifaceted. We have many items all at different places along the path. Angry over somethings, depressed about others, accepting of some stuff, and bargaining other items. You might even discover a few lingering within the denial stage still.
However, the way you stated this, it’s negotiating with your own thoughts. Not emotions. Thoughts. (This really resonated with me, in case I’m being to subtle. Lol)
Negotiating with your thoughts is how one strengthens, crafts, or discards their beliefs. It’s challenging one’s deeply held view to see if it’s what they want. Does it serve or not.
I’ve walked beside you for a long time Eagle, and I’d place you more organizing your convictions than grief bargaining. An excellent thing. Beliefs than inspire being happy, and you will find joy and peace.
I am sorry about the sons interactions with Dad. S17 is certainly getting dragged into something, and was pumped for information from what you said.
I know it's up to S17 to find his way with his father. I was very angry about the fact that he drove home in a drunken state with his bike (EXH just let him leave like this) but unfortunately I have little influence on what has been said. As this has been going on for several years now, he most probably will be banging his head against a stone wall again and Mom will have to be there to catch him.
Yes, you will have little influence on what has been said.
Read that carefully. And again. What you wrote. “I have little influence on what has been said.”
Little influence is NOT no influence. You have influence! You make a difference!
Be consistent. Be the role model. S17, the twins, all watch and learn. Sure it doesn’t feel like that. And plenty of times teens rebel, ignore, and try to be cool. Or all grown up. Still, they do watch.
So have faith. And gently exert your influence. You have a power that H cannot wield, the power of consistency. You are the strong stable parent. And your influence, just from living your great life, will accumulate and encourage the boys.
I assume it is what it is…EXH still lost in the MLC madness and wants to have control over our lives through S17 who takes the bait at the moment.
Yes, it is what it is.
There are flavours of acceptance. The initial one is a more resigned accepting of things. That makes sense since one just exited depression. In time, as one accepts more and more, so long as long one doesn’t just dig in to that resignation lifestyle, a more inspired acceptance emerges. One becomes eager for thier future. Inspired by that which surrounds them. And firmly grasps their control of their life.
It is what it is, and it is what we make it.
Great post Eagle! You are doing so well.
D
but also because I am making progress in processing my own demons and I guess this radiates.
THIS!!! When I finally let go of my ex and began to embrace my independence, men began flirting with me in public in ways that never really happened when I was in my 20's (and objectively thinner and prettier). Self-confidence is attractive.
I'm sorry for the effect your ex has on your kids, but happy for you that you will be starting a new life and letting go of the baggage of the past.
congrats on your new home, Eagle. I'm sure you and the boys will have a blast making it your own. xoxoxo
Hi Gerda,
Thank you for your cleat explanation about NPD.
The twins are in therapy, S17 unfortunately not as he doesn’t want to go at the moment.
Can’t force him into going either, but luckily he is very open in his communication towards me so hopefully this will be sufficient for now.
As you know before EXH’s MLC hit, which was about 2 years before BD, there was absolutely no sign of NPD behaviour so kids have never been confronted with this.
It was only when MLC hit, ages of kids were 12 and 9 that this behaviour came to surface, which is different of what your children and yourself had to endure.
But I definitely take into account that nevertheless, even if they were older, this still has a huge effect on them, therefore therapy is necessary. I hope one day S17 will see and acknowledge this as well. But it will be on his timeframe.
Thank you D, k, and B for your support.
A bit more of EXH behaviour of trying to control S17…
S17 had to make a task for religion a couple of weeks ago.
However, it was a task that had to be about a certain difficult time in his life (and to process it) and where he had to make this clear through a song and a piece of art and then link this to each other. Since S17 does not like to express his feelings to others and also has difficulty putting them on paper, he asked me to make this task together. We agreed to take his father as the subject.
It turned out to be a very beautiful but also very heavy task. Huge amount of emotion, an explanation of his anger, sadness, how he misses his old dad, why he doesn't understand that his dad doesn't want to seek help for his issues, that there are 2 personalities in him, etc.
Last week, when S17 saw his father, he told about this task to his father in a inebriated state, to which his father asked to read the task. S17 forwarded it a few days ago.
What follows was a message EXH sent to S17. I will post the broad outlines below.
"This was very difficult to read but it must have been very difficult for you to make as well. I would like to let this sink in for a few days and come back to it and then like to meet with you to talk about this. I understand what you are writing and don't blame you. However, I am now ready to ge the necessary help but preferably also by you. That same old dad is still inside somewhere, but he was just pushed away because of his own issues and together we can find him again. That's why I'm asking for your help. We still have a whole life ahead of us and we can make an exception for these last 5 years if we make up for it now and get closer to each other for the next 40 years. I love you"
I would really love to hear your opinion on this as I’m still way too gullible, this seems to be a characteristic which I can’t seem to get rid of. LOL
I also had another question regarding rock bottom.
You have to know that EXH has a log of money now, he doesn't work, OW2 doesn't work either and is constantly traveling and living a life where he doesn't have to deal with anyone. He has also made his R with OW2 public but does not say anything about it to S17 (S17 also wants nothing to do with this and I think this is obvious to EXH).
If he sends such a message to S17 about seeking help, but he still lives it up so heavily with OW2, is this possible?
Hence my initial thought, he may be more self-reflective after all, but the more I read this, the more I think it's another form of manipulation.
Again only words, not actions, and why ask for help from S17, it must be professional help in my opinion, S17 will not be able to help him get over his issues…
Quick update over today's events...
S17 asked me to help formulate a response to the above mentioned message his Dad sent him.
We came up with the following:
Certainly not easy, but it hasn't been that way for a long time. You write beautiful words that I really want to believe in, but I simply can't anymore. I've heard this from you too many times when there was a glimps of the old Dad that you were going to seek help and every time you changed into that other person and you did nothing. That's why I chose to only know you superficially. You would like me to help you but that's something I won't be able to do, you can only do it yourself, with the help of professional people. What I can do is be there for you while you do something about your problems and when there is improvement, only then can I try to be there for you.
I also had to send an e-mail in regards to the movable property.
At first EXH was not interested at all in the furniture and a lot of things I can't take with me since too large so I decided to search for people who were interested in it. When I finally did, I sent EXH the rates etc. Then suddenly he said he would take all the furniture if sold for those rates as mentioned in the document. Really frustrating since I already did all the work on that.
No suddenly he came back to me today stating I can do wathever I want because I have done so many good things the past years for him. Also willing to pay my half of something that we still owe the authorities in regards to a company which we owned together. (and this is about 50K in total).
Bare in mind we only communicate through messages or e-mails, not in person or over the phone.
There is the awakening again it seems...and this during a holiday with OW2. (I think he is abroad again with her)
I know this is not problem anymore but still affects me and I wanted to mention it here to show how they can shift so swiftly.
Would this be because he is happy with her and therefore turning around? Have you ever seen this in MLC?
Hello Eagle
Wow, what a challenging task for S17. I remember being a lad of 17, and expressing feelings was difficult, never mind putting them to paper. I am very impressed son’s topic was his Dad. You must be very proud of son. And you should be!
It turned out to be a very beautiful but also very heavy task. Huge amount of emotion, an explanation of his anger, sadness, how he misses his old dad, why he doesn't understand that his dad doesn't want to seek help for his issues, that there are 2 personalities in him, etc.
Excellent.
Eagle, son is going to be alright.
My kids faced their Mom’s leaving and behaviour head on. They spoke to their classmates, stood at the front of the class, and let everyone know what happened. They poured out their feelings and hurt in their music; the music professor was a family friend and she encouraged some really dynamic and angry pieces.
S17’s pouring out is great to see. It’s like a year of therapy right there, all wrapped up in one project.
Got to say, I am impressed that son shared his project/feelings with Dad. And EXH’s response is pretty interesting.
I would really love to hear your opinion on this as I’m still way too gullible, this seems to be a characteristic which I can’t seem to get rid of. LOL
How about hopeful, instead of gullible.
EXH acknowledges so much in his response. He mentions the difficulty in reading his son’s feelings, and how difficult it must have been for son to do this work. Displaying empathy is a positive thing. And folks lost and consumed are not empathic toward others.
EXH even pauses and confirms postponement of a few days for more thoughtful discussion. Again, something most crisis folks do not display often; as their attention span is like that of a gnat, and they usually respond quickly and from emotions.
Dad doesn’t blame son. Nor does he accept any blame. There is no clear accountability on his part put into writing. He does acknowledge his troubles and turmoil, and recognizes his desire to get help.
One particular part that doesn’t sit well with me is wanting to make an exception for the last five years. EXH is pretty plain about ignoring these last years and let’s just enjoy the next forty.
Overall, a positive(ish) and “G” style message. And, you’ve been here before.
You have to know that EXH has a log of money now, he doesn't work, OW2 doesn't work either and is constantly traveling and living a life where he doesn't have to deal with anyone. He has also made his R with OW2 public but does not say anything about it to S17 (S17 also wants nothing to do with this and I think this is obvious to EXH).
The other life. Less responsibilities. Fun in the sun.
If he sends such a message to S17 about seeking help, but he still lives it up so heavily with OW2, is this possible?
Hence my initial thought, he may be more self-reflective after all, but the more I read this, the more I think it's another form of manipulation.
EXH/Dad/G said some very nice words. However, his actions are saying something different.
I suspect son’s open and honest emotions pulled Dad out of his tunnel. EXH sees what he did. Feels bad. Would like things to be better. But, how long will it last? Will EXH do the needed work to make things better? All that depends upon EXH.
Again only words, not actions, and why ask for help from S17, it must be professional help in my opinion, S17 will not be able to help him get over his issues…
Yes, look to actions. Words are important, yet actions speak louder.
You are correct S17 will not be able to help Dad get over his issues. In fact, son should not be involved in a capacity as counsellor at all. Son does not need the responsibility of his Dad’s mental and emotional health upon his shoulders. Not at all!
Son could (should) reply something along the lines of: Dad I love you too. I am unable to help you find yourself. Please follow through with what you said and seek help. We cannot just make an exception or ignore the last five years, however the future can be better.
So, yes the message and EXH is manipulating. Less nefarious than previous times perhaps. But still, it’s not “I messed up. What do I need to do to make things right?” It is steps in that direction though. Time will tell if it sticks this round.
Oftentimes people need to hit rock bottom to find the drive and will to make permanent life changes. And rock bottom is where and when one decides it to be. To me, EXH hasn’t quite reached that point. Yet.
D
Hi D,
Thanks. I think my last response and yours were posted at the same time, so you might have missed that one. What do you think of the response we made towards EXH and what about my other Q?
You also talk about rock bottom and indeed, I’m pretty sure he will not reach that since he can live his best life now. No responsibilities whatsoever, doing whatever he wants, a beautiful woman by his side and a lot of money…
You know I very much appreciate your insight on things.
Hello Eagle
I was typing as you were posting.
Well done with the response to XH/Dad.
It’s wordy, which in this case is perfect. EXH can/will read it often.
I know this is not problem anymore but still affects me and I wanted to mention it here to show how they can shift so swiftly.
Would this be because he is happy with her and therefore turning around? Have you ever seen this in MLC?
One of the major traits of MLC is confusion. A crisis is an emotional irrational journey. The MLCer is driven by their emotions. And emotions/feelings are fleeting; therefore flipping and flopping on issues is pretty standard.
Now, this confusion is largest during entry into the crisis or tunnel. Once they are deeply consumed they do settle into their depression and narrative. Exiting the tunnel - either a temporary peaking out, or actually awakening - exhibits confusion. Consider pre-crisis they are purring along living life. Then past traumas are dug up within them. Competing views and desires push and pull internally, which is confusing. As this continues, their pressure increases and increases. Little outward indications become apparent, although are mostly overlooked. Eventually the pressure and confusion reaches such a threshold that kaboom, bomb drop.
Here, they’ve entered the full blown crisis. Confusion reigns in their life as they firm up their narrative and lay to rest their past life. Their running behaviours and vices keep the confusion and demons away. The MLCer is quite confident and assured in themselves of their new shinny life. Until at rest. Oh, the demons do play when one is at rest. Hence, why they run. And run they do. Spending money, drugs, drink, affairs, illicit actives, anything to feel young and alive. The terrible truth buried again; that they feel dead inside, and so very full of pain and hurt.
Peaking out of the tunnel, a mini awakening, and such all exhibit more confusion. The MLCer’s crafted narrative and life unravels somewhat. This is part of the emotional path they are on. Some peek out for just a moment or two, some days to months, and some stay awaken. It is easy to understand that they need to be more healed to face reality than their fantasy.
As stated, the crisis is driven by their emotions. So changes in their direction can be like flipping a switch. Feelings, after all, come and go pretty quickly.
XH’s sudden offer to pay $50K is odd. Amazing. And odd. I mean you are divorced and I’m guessing he doesn’t legally owe you it. Or if he does, he has been withholding remittance and now got a surge of goodwill. That, and his other goodwill gesture and acknowledgment of all you’ve done over the last years, does appear to be brought about by some external force or pressure.
Is XH’s generosity brought on by happy? Or sad?
Hard to say. I’m sure son’s project has stirred something within him. Some things XH isn’t wanting to look at. He could be trying to compensate for his guilt.
XH and OW2 could be engaged, and he is super elated. Making magnanimous gestures and payments of bills due. Creating a feeling of a clean slate as it were.
Or G is making another appearance.
Time will tell. For now, accept his offer, if he actually follows through with it.
Crisis is all about him. OW <whatever number> is a symptom. She is not the cure! If XH is turning around it is because of himself.
That being said, it is possible for a MLCer to heal and remain with their other person. However, most break up. The relationship was born out of deceit and illicit behaviour. And that is an unstable foundation of sand; hardly strong enough to weather life’s storms.
The OP is a sign of running. If she is around, so is the crisis.
D
We were typing together again. Lol.
And you are most welcome. I am happy to share my views.
…I’m pretty sure he will not reach that since he can live his best life now. No responsibilities whatsoever, doing whatever he wants, a beautiful woman by his side and a lot of money…
Best life. Bah! Not by a long shot!
And for the record, beauty is way more than skin deep. And you are gorgeous! Don’t ever believe different.
Hello Eagle.
Just popping in to see how you are? You are probably buried in preparing for the move to your new house. I’m so excited for you! But moving is a drag…and that is what I’ve been buried in myself. But once you get to where you can start decorating and arranging, it’s the best feeling!
El
Thank you D and L for your response and always positive support.
The move is actually something I don't worry too much about. Luckily I have the whole of July to move and I'm quite a planner so that will go smoothly for sure.
The only problem is that I'll have to live between boxes for a bit.
I cannot order everything yet because the money from the sale of the house will only be available in the 3rd week of July and because I have already paid the advance from the other house out of my own resources (didn't want to take an extra loan since I won't need it anymore).
But no problem, if I order everything in the 3rd week of July, most of it would be in by the end of September, so it will only be for a short while.
I already enjoy looking for all kinds of nice things for the house, nothing that is more fun!
Meanwhile EXH is more active again, especially to the children, today also to me.
Where I live it was Father's Day today, no doubt a difficult day for him as they don't want to be with him for the time being.
This week he also finally messaged Twin S14 1, he wants nothing to do with his father and has not sent anything back.
Today I sat down with them to ask if they wanted to send a message to their father. Initially, this was a no-go for S17 and Twin S 14 1, Twin S14 2, however, wanted to send something. In the end, they agreed to send a message after all. Twin S14 2 sent this on their behalf.
He responded immediately and it showed again that he really wants to make things right. He says he knows what his mistakes are and where things went wrong, that he wants to show that he can change, wants to be the father again like before but that they can only determine that he is getting better if they would meet with him and that he wants to get that chance. He also adds that he has patience as he knows it is about gaining trust again.
I made this evening a nice evening for them. After all, I also want them to still know their father as he used to be, S17 remembers this very well, but for the Twins this is very far away, that's why we watched a lot of videos this evening of when they were young, man, did they have fun!
Strange but true, this evening EXH sends me a message:
Hi,
After a few months and shortly before the next step I would have liked to sit down with you again and try to end everything in a better way (if you are open to that of course).
At my house or I would like to invite you for dinner somewhere.
Let me know.
GWith the next step I assume he means the move, although that's not a step for him, just for me and the kids, unless he means something else I don't know about yet LOL.
So what do we do with that, huh? Any advice?
I do want to say that I find it very strange that he dares to invite me to his home, while I am sure that OW2 already lives with him, at least this was the case a couple of weeks ago. (and he may be completely bonkers at times, he would never, ever confront me with something like that)
I also love his wording "to end everything". To me it seems he really want me to know in advance what his purpose is so I don't get my hopes up. He still seems to think I can't live without him LOL.
Hello Eagle
Sounds like you are having fun shopping for the house. A few months live among the boxes will pass pretty quickly.
G’s message is intriguing. And, methinks, purposefully vague.
Given he sent is on Father’s Day, I’d suspect he is stirred somewhat. The little wanted interacting from his kids, undoubtedly amplifying that stirring.
The “next step” is an odd statement. The whole message is a bit odd if you ask me. Next step? Your move. Maybe he’s moving? Or marrying? Or breaking up?
Meeting at his house to discuss sounds rather entrapping. I’d steer clear of that. Like you said, I think OW2 lives with him. So not sure why he’d invite you to his house.
My guess is to do with the kids. His message to them and then one to you are likely connected. Your move, the next step, cuts him out of your life. He had, and has, nothing to do with the house. To “end everything in a better way” for him would to be involved. Remember, his path is all about him. I suspect manipulating to get back in to the middle of things. You sense something too - as in he feels you cannot live without him.
His manipulating looks, for the moment, not seriously nefarious; more of a man trying to figure out an easy way to talk his kids into seeing him. Avoiding the difficult work.
When MLCers are pleasant and sweet as sugar, they are usually after something.
Still, I’d respond and see just what he is up to. Not an agreement to meet. Not yet. Rather a prompt for more information.
Hello G
I am open to a discussion. You mentioned a better way. What are you proposing?
I’m unsure of your timeline reference. “Before the next step” has no significance to me. If you could clarify that, it would be appreciated.
E
Of course, you could just ignore the message, yet for the sake of your young children I think this opportunity is something worth exploring.
D
Thx D.
Although forgot to mention one important item, he already told S17, when they met a few weeks ago (remember drunken episode) he would send a message in June to me to ask for a get-together with me. So, it was already a ‘planned’ thing in his head.
And with the next step he could mean the actual sale of the house. The signing session with the new owners is planned for mid-July, we both need to attend.
Eagle3,
My take is - especially if he's living with OW2 - there's hardly anything you need to discuss which can't be done via email. Personally I'd decline the in-person meet up and ask him to type up what he wants. That'll give you time to read it, process it, and craft a thoughtful and unemotional response. Just my $0.02.
Good luck w/the move!
Hi Eagle. I’m glad you are getting to do some fun stuff around the new house planning!
As for the letter, I agree with D and BL42. Something doesn’t seem right. What would be necessary in person at this point? I agree that getting it in writing would allow you more options in processing it. In person, there could be so much other emotional stuff that it could be really stressful. He’s not fully earned any right yet to that level of communication. Sure, he may be turning a new leaf and making some efforts, but don’t make it easy on him until you know for sure his actions are sincere.
That’s my take anyway.
El
Hello Eagle
I forgot about still needing to sign papers for the house sale. That certainly sounds like a candidate for what he means by next step.
What kind of nice new things have you picked out for the house? Got a theatre room, or office, or playroom figured out? I suspect the house has a pretty sweet kitchen. How many bathrooms? I hope there is at least two; you got a big family with your three kids.
Take care.
D
G’s message is intriguing. And, methinks, purposefully vague.Given he sent is on Father’s Day, I’d suspect he is stirred somewhat. The little wanted interacting from his kids, undoubtedly amplifying that stirring.
Yes, it is. As I already mentioned G is a really smart guy. Therefore his messages are worth analysing.
The “next step” is an odd statement. The whole message is a bit odd if you ask me. Next step? Your move. Maybe he’s moving? Or marrying? Or breaking up?
I asked, with the next step he indeed means the actual sale of the house. I assume he wants to meet before that. Why?
My guess:
1/ Because he feels guilty of the way he treated me before he left the last time. Doesn’t mean he has genuine remorse of course, and I do not expect that.
2/ Kids (see below)
3/ Because he is very curious of how our lives are going now. (see below)
Meeting at his house to discuss sounds rather entrapping. I’d steer clear of that. Like you said, I think OW2 lives with him. So not sure why he’d invite you to his house.
Don’t understand that either but will definitely not go to his house. If I agree, it will be somewhere neutral.
My guess is to do with the kids. His message to them and then one to you are likely connected. Your move, the next step, cuts him out of your life. He had, and has, nothing to do with the house. To “end everything in a better way” for him would to be involved. Remember, his path is all about him. I suspect manipulating to get back in to the middle of things. You sense something too - as in he feels you cannot live without him. His manipulating looks, for the moment, not seriously nefarious; more of a man trying to figure out an easy way to talk his kids into seeing him. Avoiding the difficult work.
Yes D, exactly what I’m thinking. I’ve mentioned point 2/3 which is what you are saying as well. I’m pretty sure we will be spot on.
Still, I’d respond and see just what he is up to. Not an agreement to meet. Not yet. Rather a prompt for more information.
Which I did. There he mentioned the fact that it was because of the sale of the house and the way it “ended” between us.
Of course, you could just ignore the message, yet for the sake of your young children I think this opportunity is something worth exploring.
You know I’m not like that and I never will. I’ve always told him that I would be there (not as wife, but as the father of our children) if he realizes the fact that something is seriously wrong with him and that he needs help to deal with it and his past trauma’s. He knows this very well.
Because he did mention this in his messages several times now towards the children I want to explore if he is telling the truth. (but I guess we all know the answer on that...
)
Personally I'd decline the in-person meet up and ask him to type up what he wants. That'll give you time to read it, process it, and craft a thoughtful and unemotional response. Just my $0.02.
Thank you BL for your approach. However G is not a writer, has never been. Would be strange to ask him. I also do not want to act unemotional. This is simply not me.
I am a very empathetic person, and towards him I will always continue to do so as well. He will of course no longer see the heavy negative emotions, simply because they are no longer there.
As for the letter, I agree with D and BL42. Something doesn’t seem right. What would be necessary in person at this point? I agree that getting it in writing would allow you more options in processing it. In person, there could be so much other emotional stuff that it could be really stressful. He’s not fully earned any right yet to that level of communication. Sure, he may be turning a new leaf and making some efforts, but don’t make it easy on him until you know for sure his actions are sincere.
Thank you El. And in a way I understand what you are saying. These past days, the MLC threads on DB were quite interesting to me and I assume to many people who dealt or are dealing with MLC spouses. What has been written on DnJ and Bttrfly's thread, and definitely also the explanations of Mach1 are exactly the description of how I see and look at an MLC’er. The part about forgiveness made a lot of sense and definitely also the way DnJ described his anger stage. That related so much to my own experience.
Earning his rights, not making it easy for him is of no meaning when they are in deep MLC, and to me this has no meaning either. To me, when they come out of MLC, it they ever, things will automatically be very hard for them, but as they say, there is no way but going through.
If I decide to have dinner with him I will do this in the first place for myself, but even more for my children. Where can I benefit if I were to agree to meet him? I have broken all contact months ago, we did have some smart contact the past month, now he reaches out to meet. I won’t lie, I’m quite curious if maybe he is putting baby steps towards the end of the tunnel.
And, last but not least, I want to test myself as well.
These past weeks I’m even doubting if I ever would want him back. My life is going really well, I’m seeing a future for myself again, one where he does not fit in at the moment. I’m curious if this will be the case as well when I’m an evening in his presence.
I haven’t mentioned a lot about this but these past few months I have been actively working on myself.
Together with my therapist we did a deep dive into my past, to find my specific difficulties. This to learn and to become the person I really want to be for the next part of my life. I will shortly start with CBT as well to guide me further in that. (thank you OwnIt)
What kind of nice new things have you picked out for the house? Got a theatre room, or office, or playroom figured out? I suspect the house has a pretty sweet kitchen. How many bathrooms? I hope there is at least two; you got a big family with your three kids.
DnJ, I even took an interior architect to make it exactly as I want it. LOL
Next week I have a meeting to go over the plans he has created. I’m really looking forward to that.
The house I bought is based in one of the most beautiful city centres you have ever seen (it’s a very famous medieval city in Europe).
The house has 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and last but not least, a great garden court of which I will create the most cosy place you’ve ever seen!
I'm off now, beautiful weather here and I don't have to work today, can't be better.
Take care and have a great day!
Good Morning Eagle
If I agree, it will be somewhere neutral.
Isn’t wonderful when you get to this place.
If I agree…
It’s “if”. Not in a mean way. Rather it’s your choice and your control of you. And that makes a lot of difference.
And, last but not least, I want to test myself as well.
Ah, IMHO, the best reason of all.
If I may; like I waxed on about my anger stage, which I realize I haven’t typed about in like almost four years, that and other “long ago” things; one first thinks they are healed. They regain control of the intellect. Bills can get paid, decisions can be made, work can be performed. Though one certainly doesn’t feel like it.
Eventually, feelings catch up. Our heart - the one kept soft and squishy - catches up to our mind. We feel better, we feel healed. We reinforce these thoughts and inspire these positive feelings.
This process inspires our beliefs - our soul. We hope to believe we are healed.
Beliefs are interesting things. They live deep inside us, and are slow to change. They inspire everything about us; note inspire not control, for one’s mind is the throne of control. Beliefs can be ignored, to one’s self peril.
At this point, one has organized their beliefs and convictions; having strengthened, altered, discarded, and crafted their deep values. Yet one needed to know their beliefs are strong. To believe in what they believe. In this case, belief of being healed. Hence, testing or temptation is a necessary step along the path.
When one’s physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual paths are aligned and tested and known and believed, it is such a peace. I’ve personally found I lead and decide more from my “soul” now. Like for everything. It’s quite amazing. And I realize when I am not, for I get twisted up. Life’s feedback and all.
…I’m even doubting if I ever would want him back. My life is going really well, I’m seeing a future for myself again, one where he does not fit in at the moment. I’m curious if this will be the case as well when I’m an evening in his presence.
I haven’t mentioned a lot about this but these past few months I have been actively working on myself.
Together with my therapist we did a deep dive into my past, to find my specific difficulties. This to learn and to become the person I really want to be for the next part of my life.
Yes, become you. The best version of you.
You need to answer nor even decide of you would ever want him back, or where he will fit in your or your kids future lives. Things do have a way of sorting themselves out.
Do focus, and believe, in and on your life. How well it is going. How well you are doing and becoming. Everything flows from those deep convictions.
As OwnIt has attested, thought work, or cognitive behavioural therapy, is a helpful tool. One of many tools in the personal development toolbox. One which I do find to be my default, it just happens for me.
Some advice regarding the thoughtful purposeful altering of negative thoughts; ensure they are negative and/or you truly want to alter them. Hopefully, that causes a pause within you. How do I know if they are truly negative? I’m not talking about our obvious hurt and self blaming and such from the events that have befallen us. I’m talking about beliefs and convictions. Discussions of MLC being real or not being a recent example.
My path, and thoughtful approach, is not to discount “the other side”. I find there is already far too much of that in the world which programs society to such one sided thoughts - just look at the polarizing views and bloodlust fights that politics, or Covid, or any number of other hot button topics brings forth. My approach, each side is right and more importantly wrong (although I do admit the embracing one’s wrongness of things takes some getting used to). So let’s stick with both sides are right.
One would fight tooth and nail that it is a 6. And the other would equally fight it is a 9. Both are right. And if neither will humble themselves to look from the other side, the battle will rage external. Both being fully self justified and right. One can be right and end up incorrect.
Utilize thought work to elevate above whatever it is you are working on. See it from a completely different plane. Do not choose one side or the other. Do not limit yourself. You are so much worthy to see the full picture. And in that larger picture, choosing sides becomes irrelevant. Life it turns out is far from black and white, it has many colours and shades.
DnJ, I even took an interior architect to make it exactly as I want it. LOL
Next week I have a meeting to go over the plans he has created. I’m really looking forward to that.
The house I bought is based in one of the most beautiful city centres you have ever seen (it’s a very famous medieval city in Europe).
The house has 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and last but not least, a great garden court of which I will create the most cosy place you’ve ever seen!
I love it! An interior architect! That is fantastic.
Oh my goodness, a great garden court. Wow! And four bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. Sounds awesome!
Keep shinning.
D
Do focus, and believe, in and on your life. How well it is going. How well you are doing and becoming. Everything flows from those deep convictions.
As OwnIt has attested, thought work, or cognitive behavioural therapy, is a helpful tool. One of many tools in the personal development toolbox. One which I do find to be my default, it just happens for me.
Some advice regarding the thoughtful purposeful altering of negative thoughts; ensure they are negative and/or you truly want to alter them. Hopefully, that causes a pause within you. How do I know if they are truly negative? I’m not talking about our obvious hurt and self blaming and such from the events that have befallen us. I’m talking about beliefs and convictions. Discussions of MLC being real or not being a recent example.
My path, and thoughtful approach, is not to discount “the other side”. I find there is already far too much of that in the world which programs society to such one sided thoughts - just look at the polarizing views and bloodlust fights that politics, or Covid, or any number of other hot button topics brings forth. My approach, each side is right and more importantly wrong (although I do admit the embracing one’s wrongness of things takes some getting used to). So let’s stick with both sides are right.
One would fight tooth and nail that it is a 6. And the other would equally fight it is a 9. Both are right. And if neither will humble themselves to look from the other side, the battle will rage external. Both being fully self justified and right. One can be right and end up incorrect.
Utilize thought work to elevate above whatever it is you are working on. See it from a completely different plane. Do not choose one side or the other. Do not limit yourself. You are so much worthy to see the full picture. And in that larger picture, choosing sides becomes irrelevant. Life it turns out is far from black and white, it has many colours and shades.
The reason why I want to follow cognitive behavioural therapy is not to change my way of thinking, but to check if I can work on certain things, I will not go into detail here because it is too personal, and has little to nothing to do with EXH but things which I want to see for myself in a different way in the future. Matters with which I myself have struggled for a long time, which have clearly come to the surface because of what I have experienced now (call it an awakening for myself) and which I wish to approach in a different way in relationships with the people in my life . (this on relational, family and friendship level)
The intention is to become an even better version of myself, although I am, if I do say so myself, already very satisfied with who I am.
As indicated last time, EXH had invited me for a dinner to “round things off” nicely. I doubted for a while but decided to go for the well-known reasons I told last time.
All I can say is that I'm glad I went.
The meeting took place on neutral ground. First in a bar, then together to the restaurant.
I thought it was going to be a little awkward, especially after the long time we hadn't seen each other, but luckily everything felt very natural. I wasn't nervous at all, which was a sign to me that I'm much further along than I thought I was.
It however didn't surprise me that I didn't see much of MLC H, but that G was present for almost the entire evening. (I know this sounds weird to non-MLC believers, but those who do will understand what I'm talking about)
The conversation was positive and constructive. In the beginning we talked a lot about the children, of course he was also quite curious about my life, but I only shared information in broad terms.
I especially noticed that he really wants to do his very best to restore the relationship with his children. He knows this will be a process that will take a long time, and even used the following sentence:
I know all too well that it is much harder to glue a vase back together than to break it. I will continue to message them on a regular basis, and will be patient until they are willing to let me back into their lives.
He says he realizes very well what he has done to all of us, that this has been strongly present in the last 5 weeks. Since then, he has tried to be consistent in his behaviour. (he used those words)
He's tired of constantly having those highs and lows and having that destructive behaviour. (turns out that this has certainly not improved in recent months, so also not after his departure in February to OW2).
He also said that at the end of May, after reading S17's religion task, he completely freaked out. Apparently he was abroad with a friend but spent 3 days in his bed because of this. Could drink hardly anything (you know G has developed a serious alcohol problem) because after 2 drinks completely drunk, extremely ill, hallucinations, etc.
He has also been to the doctor several times to have blood tests because he thinks he has a serious illness. (blood results are always OK though)
So it seems that his rock bottom has been reached this time, although one never knows for sure.
Ultimately, time will tell if this means he'll come out for the better.
Last week, for the first time in more than 3 years, he has spent a full day with his father. He said he had very good conversations with his Dad and that he missed this som much the past years. His father recommended him a good psychiatrist. He says he will make an appointment but we all know that they will say whatever we want to hear so I’m very cautious about that.
Said he will do everything he can to get back to being the happy old person and father he was. My FIL told me afterwards that his words seemed sincere, that he would do everything he could to restore the relationship with his children and with me.
However, there were also short moments when MLC H came up, and then I have to say that I am really glad that I no longer have to be confronted with that on a regular basis and happy that I simply can go back to my own life, that this is not my burden to carry anymore.
He didn't say a word about OW2. Although she doesn't currently live with him (anymore), that much is clear. Which I find quite good since OW2 is a no go for the children at the moment so her not being in his life on a constant basis will perhaps help them to find a way to their father again.
We left on time, he hadn't had much to drink for the first time in 3 years! so no drunken talk at all.
He walked with me to my bike because he thought it was dangerous that I went home alone and asked if I could certainly send a message when I was home because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to sleep. (remember that 7 weeks ago S17 cycled home alone after they met whereby he was completely drunk…small note… I did say to him that this is no longer possible next time)
When I left he gave me big hug and asked me to please keep in touch with him. I replied that this was certainly possible in function of the children, as long as this was in a positive and constructive way (same as the evening we had just now)
Most of all, I'm relieved, relieved for myself that I'm finally there. The fear, the anxiety in front of him has completely disappeared. Today I look at him as my ex-husband and I am sincerely at peace with that.
Yes, I still love him, but the feeling of love has taken another dimension.
I can’t explain it differently.
Most of all, I'm relieved, relieved for myself that I'm finally there. The fear, the anxiety in front of him has completely disappeared. Today I look at him as my ex-husband and I am sincerely at peace with that.
This!
El
Good Morning Eagle
I’m glad diner went well and you found the meeting worthy.
It however didn't surprise me that I didn't see much of MLC H, but that G was present for almost the entire evening. (I know this sounds weird to non-MLC believers, but those who do will understand what I'm talking about)
Nice to hear that G was present and remained for the majority of the time. (And you get what I mean by that.)
I especially noticed that he really wants to do his very best to restore the relationship with his children. He knows this will be a process that will take a long time, and even used the following sentence:
I know all too well that it is much harder to glue a vase back together than to break it.
Now, that is an interesting and notable statement.
His realization and admission of his actions; his desire to make reparations; his effort to remain consistent in his behaviour (his words); all positive steps for him.
I kind of figured S17’s religion task had an affect upon Dad. His telling you it completely freaked him out is further than I’d thought though. He has hovered and bounced off rock bottom before. Time will tell if it sticks. Hoping the best for him and the kids. And you.
Said he will do everything he can to get back to being the happy old person and father he was. My FIL told me afterwards that his words seemed sincere, that he would do everything he could to restore the relationship with his children and with me.
Words and actions. I hope they align.
I wasn't nervous at all, which was a sign to me that I'm much further along than I thought I was.
Most of all, I'm relieved, relieved for myself that I'm finally there. The fear, the anxiety in front of him has completely disappeared. Today I look at him as my ex-husband and I am sincerely at peace with that.
Wonderful!
It’s such a peace isn’t it?
Yes, I still love him, but the feeling of love has taken another dimension.
I can’t explain it differently.
Yep. Hard to describe. And a nice place to be.
D
Good afternoon,
Short update on the boys and in particular G' behaviour of these past days since our dinner.
Very active with messages on a daily basis in function of the kids and their school results. I did inform him gently about everything but went alone to the parental meetings with the teachers.
Kids didn't want him there as yet.
One message stuck out...
Hi, I'm going to look for a house to buy very near to the current house so please do not think that I'm stalking you. I simply answered, wouldn't come to my mind at all, good luck. Then the next day, I won't be coming in the area since the house is already sold to somebody else. I just said OK. (as if I have to know these things, I'm your ex-wife, remember :o)
Now quiet again towards me.
I don't know if I've already told you this but S17 is a very smart guy but one who hates to actually do something for it. In recent years it has therefore always become more difficult in school to maintain his good results, and he almost had to do his year over last year but they deliberated him and he was allowed to go to his senior year.
Despite the many attempts of the people around him and in particular myself to make him realize that he really has to study to make it this year he unfortunately did not, so he did not pass and has to do his senior year over. (however I do take the situation of the last few years with his father, as well as corona, into account)
S17 had actually already given up before his exams had started so I was already sure that it would turn out like this, S17 did as well, but it was harder to face reality than he expected.
G asked about it several times how S17 was doing and it seemed very sincere.
I always answered his messages. Also showing huge interest in the twins as well.
Although I was a bit dissapointed S17 simply gave up I do see this in a positive way now. Better that this is happening now than in college next year.
He needed to bang his head against the wall to show that you have nothing for nothing.
Normally, MLC H's response would have been completely over the top and he would be very judging towards S17. (see previous threads)
Even G would have had a lot of trouble with this.
But, nothing of that anymore. A complete different person now we are dealing with, one I have never seen before, not in all the years I have spent with him. I just want to say this is quite confusing. Who is this person?
He started to send very philosophical messages, this to the Twins14, but especially to S17.
Some examples:
- Remember that it are not your mistakes or failures that determine who you are, but how you pick yourself up and come out stronger.
- We love you and please don't let your self-image define you. It was and were shitty years but now you can show how strong you (and your brothers) really are.
- We always push our problems away from us until sometimes it explodes in our face and we can't find a way out (S17 is a lot like his F in that way, so therefore the "We" form)
- Life can hit us hard in the face and we can either bury our heads in the sand or learn and get better, the strength you need is inside you. We know that (mom, granddad and everyone, myself included) Now you just have to find it within and for yourself.
- See this as an extra opportunity and a lesson but above all not as a failure
S17 and myself think he has found his way towards a spiritual religion; I bet it is Buddhism.
(saw something which was paid by accident from an account which is still joint)
Could he really have started his spiritual journey and finally started working on himself?
I can only hope for him that this is the case.
I remain on my pad, had a great weekend with good friends. Visited an event in my home town where I was raised and lived until the age of 23 and saw a lot of people who I haven't seen in about 20 years.
Even here and there some flirting men around me, one in particular which was quite nice, but I don't have the interest to go into it today. I love my single life a bit too much currently.
I will honestly say that the events of the past 2 weeks with G did raise my interests in him a bit more. Not in a depressing or sad way, he is simply in my thoughts. I guess this is normal, wouldn't you think?
Have a nice Sunday.
E
Hello Eagle
It is unfortunate that S17 didn’t buckle down and study like he needed to. I agree with you, that this lesson is better in his senior year than during college. Hopefully, son will realize the causality of it, and how he can control his actions and can directly affect his outcome.
It is interesting and positive to see Dad/G not loosing his cool and blowing his top with S17 over this.
A complete different person now we are dealing with, one I have never seen before, not in all the years I have spent with him. I just want to say this is quite confusing. Who is this person?
A different version of XH/G. Maybe even a better version of himself.
S17 and myself think he has found his way towards a spiritual religion; I bet it is Buddhism. (saw something which was paid by accident from an account which is still joint)
Could he really have started his spiritual journey and finally started working on himself?
His messages do tend towards a spiritual awakening. Spiritual need not necessitate religious, more a deeper look and understand of one’s beliefs and convictions. And encouraging and embracing values that serve. Of course, a stronger belief in the divine will likely be a positive thing. Belief in the divine is very likely when one find purpose, strength, and salvation that is attributable to beyond themselves. And yes, that would be working on himself. IMHO.
A crisis is a life transition gone into overdrive. G has had several positive encounters and events. Speaking with childhood counselor, seeing and visiting with his Dad, for example. He acknowledges his path and faults and desire to heal. Plenty of steps have been taken along his journey. I do hope he does not run back into the tunnel, and remains facing things. Those messages to kids, are also messages to himself.
I will honestly say that the events of the past 2 weeks with G did raise my interests in him a bit more. Not in a depressing or sad way, he is simply in my thoughts. I guess this is normal, wouldn't you think?
Perfectly normal Eagle.
Have a wonderful day.
D
It is unfortunate that S17 didn’t buckle down and study like he needed to. I agree with you, that this lesson is better in his senior year than during college. Hopefully, son will realize the causality of it, and how he can control his actions and can directly affect his outcome.
I hope so too. And if not his Mom will be there to "KHA" (won't spell it out LOL)
A different version of XH/G. Maybe even a better version of himself.
Yes, it actually is. Since the deed of the sale was unexpectedly postponed for 3 weeks and I have already bought a new home in the meantime he asked if he could support me in any way. Told him it would be difficult for a few weeks since all my current financial resources have gone to the new home already and didn't expect this, he spontaneously transferred money to support me temporarily as he doesn't want me to worry about that. I would rather not have done this given the situation but he insisted that he is the person to support me now. So I accepted and thanked him for this nice gesture.
Those messages to kids, are also messages to himself.
My thoughts exactly. He is like speaking to himself.
I will honestly say that the events of the past 2 weeks with G did raise my interests in him a bit more. Not in a depressing or sad way, he is simply in my thoughts. I guess this is normal, wouldn't you think?
Perfectly normal Eagle.
Thanks D.
Mom will be there to "KHA"
LOL!
I haven't posted anything on my thread for 3 weeks now, the main reason being we had the big move these past few weeks.
And I am proud to say that we finally live in our new home!
I started about 3 weeks ago to fill boxes and bring them to our new home to unpack them, bit by bit. In this way, I managed to move all the small things that we did not need immediately and got rid of everything we did not need anymore.
The plan was then to move all the big items in two days this week. But we managed to do it all in one day. I had a lot of help from family and friends so everything went really smoothly.
These past days then I finished cleaning the old house, this for the new owners to move in (normally everything will be finalised the 4th of August) and to put everything in place in my new home. My BFF was a huge support to me and helped everywhere she could. She may definitely expect a surprise trip to show my appreciation for what she did for me.
Mentally I am in a really good position, the twins are also very happy to finally have a "home" again, because that is how it really feels, from the very first night.
The strange thing is that I thought it would hurt me emotionally to leave the old house, but strangely enough it felt like a relief. Of course that house was the very place where everything started (remember it was a newbuilt home with G only 3,5 years ago and from the moment we lived there MLC hit hard), maybe that is why it was so much easier to leave behind.
S18 is in a difficult phase. Also starting to rebel against me. It will be a challenge to guide him but I was expecting it so we will get through this for sure. Puberty plays a huge role but also the loss of his F in one of his most important years has made huge scars so I sincerely hope he will manage to find a way to deal with this. He know I’m there if needed although he doesn’t allow me in at the moment. His behaviour is so much like his F in the deepest of his MLC period. There surely is a link between MLC behaviour and puberty so it seems.
Also some interesting things to report on G.
A crisis is a life transition gone into overdrive. G has had several positive encounters and events. Speaking with childhood counselor, seeing and visiting with his Dad, for example. He acknowledges his path and faults and desire to heal. Plenty of steps have been taken along his journey. I do hope he does not run back into the tunnel, and remains facing things. Those messages to kids, are also messages to himself.
G is still following the path of healing so it seems. Apparently he broke it off completely with OW2, they are no longer together. This is a very important fact for me.
He keeps seeking contact with the children, and has seen all of them twice in the past 2 weeks.
Contact with his father seems to increase. They see each other on a weekly basis now, they go for a long walk once a week.
Once in a while he meets up with his best friend again, he has also unexpectedly seen my sister and he went to her on his own to talk to her, obviously not a deep conversation as they were not alone, but still warm and sincere.
This week I had asked him to pick up his furniture, the last time I saw him was 1 month ago during our dinner, now it was in the morning, and man, was I shocked to see him. He looks at least 10 years older, gained a lot of weight is a very short period of time (stopped working out completely) and looked so unhappy. This in huge contrast to myself, well trained, well groomed, happy and, according to many, looking 10 years younger. So you see how important it is to follow DB's advice, which is GAL, GAL and more GAL!
That evening he also sent me a very nice message. This went as follows:
"I will write you a letter later but wanted to already mention that today was not 100% obvious for me. I don't think it was for you either (which wasn't the case, he forgets that I'm much further ahead than him)
I would like to say right now that I think you are an incredibly strong person and congratulations on how you dealt with everything. I hope you know that I will always be there for you if you need me and I really want to thank you for everything you have done for me and are still doing. As mentioned above you can expect a letter soon, I will however have to think more about this and how I will word everything but I wish you all the best and I will always love you."(behind that an emoji of a hug)
I replied as follows:
Thank you for your lovely message, will be the woman of few words for once as I would like to await your letter. You know that for the past three years I have always stood by my position and I am not changing it now. My love for you is there and it will remain there, in whatever capacity. As already said and written, we cannot change the past but we do not have to remain stuck in it. You know I am there for you when you need me. I’ve let me sister read his message and she says this is the start of him realizing what he has done and what he has lost. She says he will be wanting to come back. I don’t know what to think. I will just live my good life and see what the future brings.
Only 2 weeks work to go and then off for a 2 week holiday to Scotland with the kids and my good friends. Looking forward to that!
Hi Eagle,
Glad to hear you are loving your new place and the progress with you ex. A sweet message from him…and I wonder what more will be revealed in the longer letter he mentioned? Kind of shocking that he changed so much from your dinner together. Did he seem deeply in depression? I’m sure that his awakening to what he’s done as well as the ending of his relationship with OW2 weighs on him. I hope he is sincere in his actions and maybe he has hit rock bottom and that could be a good thing, for what it can teach us and how it can drive real change.
Moving is exhausting! But it does have a good side in setting up the new place the way you want it, and that excitement of making it your own.
S18, it’s a very tough time…puberty, stretching for independence, hormones. Lol Sounds like you are well prepared, but that doesn’t make the feelings easier. Hang in there…it does get better!
Great to see your update! You have been missed!
El
His behaviour is so much like his F in the deepest of his MLC period. There surely is a link between MLC behaviour and puberty so it seems.
whoa. yes. I've always thought this but ... exh's AP's first name is the same as his high school gf's ....
just kind of leapt off the page at me. I mean, I knew it but I never thought of it in terms of puberty.
anyway ... yeah.
Eagle, I'm so happy you and the boys are settling into your new HOME
yay!
Your oldest son - it's so hard on them, isn't it? For my son, he had his dad on a pedestal and when exh fell off, it was a long way down and a hard crash. I'd like to say it will get better. it will, but not in our time. This is something for S18 to work out on his own, with guidance from you. All you can do is reassure him that you aren't going anywhere, and that you love him dearly. Knowing that, even if he doesn't acknowledge it at times, means more than we realize.
And a trip to Scotland - I've always wanted to go there. Keep doing what you're doing my friend. You're blazing a trail. Don't know if G will follow or not, but even if he doesn't, you're setting a fine example for your boys and you personally will be better than ok. I'm proud of you!
xoxoxo
Thx El and B!!!
Yes, I'm doing really well.
@El, no, depression was not really present when I saw him, in any case, not more than what I have seen these past years (it has always been present, and with times a lot). The reason why...see below.
These past days have been quite challenging with the sell of our house. Normally everything should have been signed yesterday but the buyer hasn't got the financial recourses released on time and it is postponed to Tuesday. Hopefully this will be arranged before I leave for holiday as I want to be able to go worry-free and I need the money of course.
Interesting fact was that I had to interact with EXH quite a lot. (I say EXH and not G for a reason, LOL)
I have seen him more in these 2 days than in the past 6 months. Interaction between us is good. We get along well, even went for a few drinks with the children. This way also their contact can become a bit closer again.
OW2 is out of the picture, but oh my...OW3 is there already.
Apparantely he was already cheating on OW2 with OW3 these past months. Don't ask how I know...yes, I have been snooping around but it doesn't affect me anymore. I wanted to know what was going on, if he was really coming out of the tunnel of if it was for another reason, well, now I know. I'm simply glad OW2 is not there anymore since for me this was an affair partner, OW3 is not since we are divorced.
Also that R is hidden at the moment, nobody knows about it. It's yet again a lady form the same country the other 2 came from (must be something he has issues with I guess)
So I call him EXH and not G since replay is still very active apparantely. For me, as long as he is cordial, friendly, and treats me well I don't care. Also no confrontation between the OW and children and it's all good for me for now.
So their is the pattern again:
New OW, lives it up again, is happy.
Result towards me: feeling guilty so extremely friendly, helpfull etc.
When trouble in paradise: blaming everybody for his unhappiness, including me.
I guess I need to be happy when somebody new is around and the infatuation is still in place...
The letter he was talking about I did not yet receive, I wonder if it will be written at all.
He's coming over in half an hour to sign some papers. First time he will see my new home. I will give him a tour so he can see I finally have my life fully under control and I'm really proud of that.
Have a nice day.
Eagle XXX
Apparently he was already cheating on OW2 with OW3 these past months. Don't ask how I know...yes, I have been snooping around but it doesn't affect me anymore. I wanted to know what was going on, if he was really coming out of the tunnel of if it was for another reason, well, now I know. I'm simply glad OW2 is not there anymore since for me this was an affair partner, OW3 is not since we are divorced.
So I call him EXH and not G since replay is still very active apparently. For me, as long as he is cordial, friendly, and treats me well I don't care. Also no confrontation between the OW and children and it's all good for me for now.
He's coming over in half an hour to sign some papers. First time he will see my new home. I will give him a tour so he can see I finally have my life fully under control and I'm really proud of that.
How to delete a former post…???...because I will have to come back to what I have been posting this week.
Feelings, feelings, feelings, unfortunately I don’t have them under control these past 3 days. I was doing really well, but these last days have been harder again. I guess I think I’m doing better than I’m actually doing or it’s just because of the fact that the past few weeks have been really intense with the move, the new home, the interactions with EXH etc..and therefore I’m having a small setback.
I’m simply sooooooo curious what is going on.
Conclusion: I’m making assumptions again from a few things I have seen and heard and I can be completely wrong.
I know I shouldn’t ask but to me it is important to know if there is a possibility that OW2 is out of the picture and if there might be an OW3 or not. It normally didn’t affect me anymore but since EXH is becoming so much G again I want to know what is going on.
Facts:
- 3 weeks ago my FIL met with OW2 in EXH’s rental house. Just for a brief moment. First time they saw each other. (meaning then she was still in the picture)
- 3 weeks ago, when interactions with EXH became more frequent because of the move and the selling of the marital home and because he was so ‘G’, I checked his Instagram friends. She was still one of them, in both directions.
- We still have one MC which I stopped from my side but I can still see his transactions details so I looked…these past 3 months he went 5 times to country X, which is where she lives, ad she lives in the South, but oddly, 3 of the 5 times he went he was also in the North of Country X. (unless the went up there together every time for holiday)
- 2 weeks ago I felt something was wrong and I checked again, huge shock, they both defriended each other. Up till today they are still defriended.
- This weekend, he bought flowers in a shop, but online, this again from a shop based in the North of country X. He is in country X again for the coming week. I know this because he told me and I also saw his ticket. Don’t know if he is in the South or in the North though.
Why would they defriend each other and yet he still goes to country X? Am I right to think there is an OW3 or am I being crazy?
Yes, yes, I live my life but I’m currently in a phase whereby I simply need to know what is going on.
He is so G these past days and this gives me a strange feeling. He is trying so hard to be there for S18, he is helpful towards me on all aspects. I sent him a message to let him know I was glad to see the “old G” again these past weeks and that I’m sincerely happy that he is making progress in the positive direction. His answer: ”Thank you very much. So good to read this. I have to say that the improved relationship really pleases me. I just want to match well again with everyone and make the best of it.”
Help, what is going on??? I he really coming out of the tunnel? Is he happy because he has somebody new or simply still with her and the fact they defriended each other means nothing?
Well, I know you will all say that I shouldn’t be dealing with the above, but I will honestly say that it is very difficult not to when your old H/W is coming to the surface again.
What would you think, from the above information what is going on? I'm posting this because I really had to get it out in the open.
put down the magic 8 ball.
focus on your new life.
focus on your kids.
let this play out, behind a curtain.
you don't need to know.
when you need to know, you will.
xo
Hello Eagle
Feelings, feelings, feelings, unfortunately I don’t have them under control these past 3 days.
You are doing perfectly fine my dear. One doesn’t control their feelings, one only influences them.
And…feelings are fleeting. Temporary. I bet you feel different (hopefully better) today than on the 7th when you posted.
Still, feelings are real. Valid. And a window into our present self and situation.
I guess I think I’m doing better than I’m actually doing or it’s just because of the fact that the past few weeks have been really intense with the move, the new home, the interactions with EXH etc..and therefore I’m having a small setback.
Eagle, you are doing good. No guessing about that! Believe it!
Beliefs are slow to change. Sure, emotions will rise now and then, and cause one to question themselves and things around them. Then those feelings settle and thoughts and convictions reign again. Pretty understandable with the move, the new home, and XH.
By the way, setbacks are a good thing. The name is a bit misleading in my opinion, for being setback produces positive forward motion.
Well, I know you will all say that I shouldn’t be dealing with the above, but I will honestly say that it is very difficult not to when your old H/W is coming to the surface again.
What would you think, from the above information what is going on? I'm posting this because I really had to get it out in the open.
I’m glad you share with us. It is good to get stuff out in the open.
XH’s path will proceed as it will. And things will be revealed in time. However, I understand the desire to know and question what is going on. So…
As you stated XH and OW2 unfriended each other two weeks ago. It is pretty obvious something is going on. True, a breakup seems a likely culprit. They could be attempting to take their relationship more underground, although that seems most odd since FIL just met her. Given the brief visit between FIL and the two of them, who knows how forthcoming XH was to the details of her and him. Which might be the cause of the unfriending between them; it was 7 days later when you noticed (snooped
) it, could have happened on day zero.
The tickets and visits to north country are odd as well. Could be a vacation. OW2 could have moved too. That would explain flowers being purchased in that region instead of as previous.
I sent him a message to let him know I was glad to see the “old G” again these past weeks and that I’m sincerely happy that he is making progress in the positive direction. His answer: ”Thank you very much. So good to read this. I have to say that the improved relationship really pleases me. I just want to match well again with everyone and make the best of it.”
His words are nice. How are his actions?
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
XH/G is reaching out kids. And well it seems. He is good and cordial to you. And he still flies to country X.
Help, what is going on???
It would seem, at times G is in control, and other times XH is. Emotionally mixed up being driven by feelings and passions and still some pains.
Is he really coming out of the tunnel?
In my opinion, yes he is. And he dives back in as well.
For what it’s worth, I think he will eventually find his way to healed and whole. G/XH displays and speaks with a lucidity and acceptance of what is going on with himself, something my XW does not (yet).
The person that he will become is unknown. There are signs and headings he speaks about, and even displays (kids and such), which are positive indicators of forward progress. Still, it’s his path. And on his time.
Is he happy because he has somebody new or simply still with her and the fact they defriended each other means nothing?
Interesting thought for you. The fact of them defriending does mean nothing. Consider, if there is an OW3, then OW2 now means nothing. The unfriending of her is nothing. If there isn’t an OW3, the unfriending of OW2 now means nothing. Affair partners are just a symptom.
This may be a significant event along his path, and likely is. However, OW2 and unfriending her on social media is barly a blip to him. People have meaning when they touch our beliefs. She is a band-aid for his feelings. Her fate was always to be likely discarded once her use was over. As harsh and horrible as that sounds, using another human to dull one’s own pain. Such is a crisis.
Is he happy? Eagle, he is not happy. Not yet. Happiness comes from within, and OW2 or OW3 is external.
Of course, his peeks out of the tunnel have moments of genuine happiness - long walks with kids - and are surely followed by shame and guilt, and crawling back in.
Awakening is slow too. Really slow. Like everything in this MLC process.
Have a great day Eagle.
D
you don't need to know.
when you need to know, you will.
And…feelings are fleeting. Temporary. I bet you feel different (hopefully better) today than on the 7th when you posted.
Dear B en DnJ,
You are both completely right and your words really helped. No, I don't have to know. It did creep in again though which was kind of scary.
Indeed, the term “setback” is kind of a negative word but I assume I must have these emotions in order to move forward again.
FTR, I’m doing much better again.
With EXH being so different and kind these past weeks this certainly has raised my interest in him and his life and what is going on. It is the uncertainty that is the most difficult part for me.
Since this platform is kind of my MLC diary I always want to share everything here. Sometimes I’m even a bit ashamed afterwards of what I typed at certain times, when I sometimes read it again some may think I’m a pendulum, just like the MLC'er, LOL, so thank you DnJ to re-assure that it is good to share everything here and to get the stuff out in the open.
I met with SIL yesterday. Undoubtably the R is going really difficult and they presumably broke up for a while but OW2 and EXH are still/back together and are trying once more. She will even be at a family party next Sunday. This is the 2nd time (last time in May) he brings her out in the open.
So DnJ, as you stated correctly, they go on vacation to the North and he bought her flowers.
His words are nice. How are his actions?
His actions are more present now and follow most of his words.
As I wrote we had some issues with the sell of our home and he stepped in and took over. MIL also did something really bad to the children and he called the children to tell them he has their back. He also did a follow-up of S18 on my request.
In my opinion, yes he is. And he dives back in as well
For what it’s worth, I think he will eventually find his way to healed and whole. G/XH displays and speaks with a lucidity and acceptance of what is going on with himself, something my XW does not (yet).
The person that he will become is unknown. There are signs and headings he speaks about, and even displays (kids and such), which are positive indicators of forward progress. Still, it’s his path. And on his time.
Awakening is slow too. Really slow. Like everything in this MLC process.
That is the most difficult part now. He is such a nice person at the moment.
After we received the money of the sell of the house this week he asked me “are you happy”?
I thought this was such a strange question and I refuse to lie so I answered honestly that “happy” is not a word a would use”. I’m happy that I’m through all of the administration, the move etc. but I’m not happy as this is not something I would have wanted to happen but that it is what it is.
He answered me he also had a bad feeling when he picked up the furniture the last time and if he would have been present with the signing of the sell of the house he would have been sad as well. (he gave a power of attorney to me to sign in his place as he was "abroad", definitely running again since he could have been here but wouldn't want to face these feelings again)
That nobody chooses to marry in the science to separate again but that he sees things positive now that at least we can’t have any more issues in relation to the administrative side of things. That his first priority now is to rebuild all the broken relationships from the past years and to pick up his life again where he left it years ago.
I have answered that I’m glad he answered honestly and I validated his feelings and words.
I’m quite convinced he is coming out of the tunnel and on his way to healing, no doubt about that but I always assumed that the OW’s are out of the picture by then, or do I see this wrongly?
Last day of work and tomorrow I’m leaving for Scotland. As said really looking forward to that, and B, I will definitely give you a full story of what the area is like!
Read you soon.
Much of Love,
Eagle XXX
Hi Eagle my dear,
I'm glad my post helped. xoxo
It's lovely that he's asking if you're happy. Remember to take it at face value. Take it all at face value and keep on keeping on.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to keep the focus squarely on yourself, your life, your kids, and to behave in a manner that is in alignment with your values, which you've been doing, beautifully!
This isn't linear dear one. There are going to be times when we, the LBS, 'backslide' but I think those times are actually part of the moving forward, even though it doesn't feel like it in the moment, if that makes sense?
Enjoy your trip sweetheart. You've earned a break from the madness! Can't wait for an update. If you see Craig Ferguson tell him I said hello and will see him soon! xoxo
Hello Eagle,
I think it’s all very normal and expected what you have been feeling. We can still be progressing forward and doing well while still thinking about and have feelings about our Xs on occasion. How could we not? It’s the moving forward and not getting stuck in it that I think matters the most. I don’t see it as a backslide or setback (sorry B and DnJ :D), at least I think its only a setback if you get stuck here and stop putting your feelings, growth, and needs first. I am not under the impression from what you posted that you will be stuck in this specific interest in his actions for the perceived future. The fact that his behavior has been changing recently, to me is a trigger to open the door to deeper interest in what is happening in his life—it’s in understanding the context and all.
Enjoy your trip! I’m so jealous! I am hoping for a trip to Scotland next year!
El
(((((Eagle))))))
You are not having a setback. You're just human.
But I think if you put "chocolate cake" as the temptation, you will see that you don't "have to." I don't know about you, but if there is a chocolate cake in my house I will eat the whole thing within a day or two. I can't have one slice here and there.
You don't "have to" check anything or know anything. In fact, you have NOT to in order to get the balanced mind you want. The temptation is there and very natural but like eating the entire chocolate cake, it will only make you sick. And if you do it every day, it could literally kill you.
I would advise that every time you want to look at anything about him or her or the next her or the next her (my was-band is on his second or third soulmate I believe), you have a list of things you do instead. You don't have to have the will power to avoid HAVING the temptation, only the willpower not to do it.
Delete all social media links. When you try to find them again, force yourself to instead read a book, bake scones, talk a walk, punch a pillow, read a psalm (one of the sad and desperate ones), write a poem, pull some weeds, paint a room, look at photos of children waiting to be adopted, read about climate change and set up a worm bin, pray, clean out a closet, change all the sheets, mow your neighbor's yard, write a letter to the editor, use a Q-tip to clean off the cage of a dusty fan, sign up to be a foster mom, watch Marvelous Mrs. Maisel or Shtisel or Madmen. Or you could say, I will read all the works of Charles Dickens, and every time you are tempted to check one of these things or wonder about it or see what H is doing, buying, thinking, changing, returning, posting, you have to read one chapter of Dickens (I'd start with Bleak House, also the title and theme and action of my divorce) before you can act on the temptation. At least it will delay your addiction craving for a chapter's worth of time and then maybe it will be weaker.
Lots of love from one who was once often tempted but now almost never..
A small update as I think it is extremely important for people who are just confronted with this to have an open thread that shows the evolution of a partner with MLC and how destructive it can get. I can only conclude from my specific experience and that is that in my case there have been a lot of mixed messages where I have sincerely believed that he was on his way back only to have to realize he wasn't at all.
That ultimately the best advice is to let them go, of course when you are ready. I myself have heard this advice from many people on this forum but it still took 3 years to completely let go.
BUT I’M FINALLY THERE AND CLOSE TO BEING HEALED IN FULL
I've had a fantastic summer. Lots of fun with family and friends, had a wonderful trip to Scotland, moved to a fantastic house in the middle of the city, where I immediately felt welcomed by the neighbors and the whole community. I am back to the person I used to be, albeit with much more lessons learned, but also with an acquaintance that will benefit me for the rest of my life.
I will write little about EX-H. He has been good for a while but recently slipped back and is still lost in LALA land but I've learned to draw my boundaries perfectly when he once again expresses his displeasure and then brings out his loveliest self again. (oh yes, both sides are still there)
Since the beginning of September, the children have been seeing him every two weeks at a fixed time for about 2 hours. They don't want any more today. And I assist them where necessary.
I am also quietly opening myself up to a future potential relationship. I feel like I'm ready for it. Everything in its time, the right person will come my way, I am convinced of that.
Lots of love,
Eagle
Especially for DnJ,
maybe you are sometimes still checking in on the forum...
I hope all is well with you.
I can only express my sincere gratitude for what you have meant to me, because I can say with full conviction that you are the person who gave me the right advice and comfort in the most difficult moments, and I never will, ever never forget this.
I'm convinced that there are a lot of people over here who have the same feeling about you.
I hope you'll come and say hello once in a while.
((((((xxx)))))))
A small update as I think it is extremely important for people who are just confronted with this to have an open thread that shows the evolution of a partner with MLC and how destructive it can get. I can only conclude from my specific experience and that is that in my case there have been a lot of mixed messages where I have sincerely believed that he was on his way back only to have to realize he wasn't at all.
That ultimately the best advice is to let them go, of course when you are ready. I myself have heard this advice from many people on this forum but it still took 3 years to completely let go.
BUT I’M FINALLY THERE AND CLOSE TO BEING HEALED IN FULL
I've had a fantastic summer. Lots of fun with family and friends, had a wonderful trip to Scotland, moved to a fantastic house in the middle of the city, where I immediately felt welcomed by the neighbors and the whole community. I am back to the person I used to be, albeit with much more lessons learned, but also with an acquaintance that will benefit me for the rest of my life.
I will write little about EX-H. He has been good for a while but recently slipped back and is still lost in LALA land but I've learned to draw my boundaries perfectly when he once again expresses his displeasure and then brings out his loveliest self again. (oh yes, both sides are still there)
Since the beginning of September, the children have been seeing him every two weeks at a fixed time for about 2 hours. They don't want any more today. And I assist them where necessary.
I am also quietly opening myself up to a future potential relationship. I feel like I'm ready for it. Everything in its time, the right person will come my way, I am convinced of that.
Lots of love,
Eagle
Eagle, I'm happy to read this post from you. Great job! It's a marathon, not a sprint for sure.
xoxo
Hello Eagle
I am pleased and honoured to be a part of your journey, and you a part of mine.
You asked me about my retirement a few weeks ago.
It’s awesome!
My kids and Mom picked me up at work for a surprise retirement party. A limo, a change of clothes, reservations for bowling, billiards, and then a fancy supper. What a fantastic time.
With my now spare time, or more precisely my time, I’ve pruned trees, repaired the floor, worked around the yard, had meals with friends, watched movies and TV series, and on and on. What I want to do, when I want to do it, and if I want to do it. Ha, my cup runneth over.
Interestingly, after the wedding, and before all the recent events here, I contacted J. I told her plainly how tongue tied I was regarding her accolades of me and apologized for being silent during our walk at the wedding. I then let her know that she did a fantastic job raising the kids and I never demonized nor diminished her efforts in their young lives. She thanked me, and again reiterated my qualities.
A week ago, I was walking through town to pick up my tractor from its oil change, and J pulled up to the pharmacy as I was walking by. She got out of her car a mere twenty feet away and smiled and vigorously waved at me. Was a bit strange considering how estranged we’ve been these past five years. I smile and waved back, as I continued walking.
I am touched by your words dear Eagle.
I am considering my place among this board or perhaps even not on it at all. I do invest myself into things. And I loved the investment I made here. However, one cannot have it all. We all make sacrifices; be those known or not. For those lucky enough to be aware, they get to choose their sacrifice. I’ve only a finite and limited amount of my most precious resource - time. I not wish to neglect that most important to me. And yes, you and the dear folks here are upon my list of important to me. The destabilization of recent events notwithstanding.
That ultimately the best advice is to let them go, of course when you are ready. I myself have heard this advice from many people on this forum but it still took 3 years to completely let go.
Yep. It takes awhile. And is so freeing.
Excellent!
And I can see it within you. You are indeed whole and healed.
(((Hugs)))
D
Eagle, I'm happy to read this post from you. Great job! It's a marathon, not a sprint for sure.
xoxo
Yes indeed B, it sure is. But the knowledge and experience we have gained, even how painfull it all was, nobody can take that away from us.
You asked me about my retirement a few weeks ago.
It’s awesome!
My kids and Mom picked me up at work for a surprise retirement party. A limo, a change of clothes, reservations for bowling, billiards, and then a fancy supper. What a fantastic time.
What a nice gesture from all of them. And even a fancy limo, no costs were spared for their loving father!!
With my now spare time, or more precisely my time, I’ve pruned trees, repaired the floor, worked around the yard, had meals with friends, watched movies and TV series, and on and on. What I want to do, when I want to do it, and if I want to do it. Ha, my cup runneth over.
As expected. Most retired people don't know how they used to go to work as they don't even have the time to do all the new activities going on. Good for you!
Interestingly, after the wedding, and before all the recent events here, I contacted J. I told her plainly how tongue tied I was regarding her accolades of me and apologized for being silent during our walk at the wedding. I then let her know that she did a fantastic job raising the kids and I never demonized nor diminished her efforts in their young lives. She thanked me, and again reiterated my qualities.
A week ago, I was walking through town to pick up my tractor from its oil change, and J pulled up to the pharmacy as I was walking by. She got out of her car a mere twenty feet away and smiled and vigorously waved at me. Was a bit strange considering how estranged we’ve been these past five years. I smile and waved back, as I continued walking.
I'm convinced this is a good way to go forward now. I too am being polite, I don't seek contact but when he does, which is fairly regular through messages, I always reply.
You know I never stopped having contact with him, only for a few months when his anger took the upper hand and his actions became destructive again.
I can so relate to your comment when the feeling arises of not knowing the other person anymore. You have lived together for so long, this person almost knew you better than you know yourself, and then there it is, completely estranged from each other. Until today I too still struggle a bit with that.
But I guess this will always be present since we already gave so many things a place now.
I am touched by your words dear Eagle.
I am considering my place among this board or perhaps even not on it at all. I do invest myself into things. And I loved the investment I made here. However, one cannot have it all. We all make sacrifices; be those known or not. For those lucky enough to be aware, they get to choose their sacrifice. I’ve only a finite and limited amount of my most precious resource - time. I not wish to neglect that most important to me. And yes, you and the dear folks here are upon my list of important to me. The destabilization of recent events notwithstanding.
I have spoken from the bottom of my heart. And I don't need to know more than what you write here. The most important thing for me is that you are happy and that I will hear from you from time to time. Your wisdom about MLC is invaluable so if you could find some time here and there to share that wisdom with other people who come here and as we know will be facing the most difficult time of their lives, this would be wonderful.
Enjoy the upcoming weekend, although for you it is always weekend now LOL!!!!
Good afternoon,
The last few weeks have again been quite busy and things will not improve in the near future.
I have decided to follow an additional education that fits very well with the work I currently do and which can offer added value in terms of salary. So 1 full day a week back to school and it also requires quite a lot of follow-up, so that, in addition to my work and the 3 children, I again have a fairly full agenda. But I'm happy to have taken that step.
I get to know new people again, and my brain learns something new. LOL
The children have all started school again and we are back to the normal regime. S18 is still a handful of work but luckily the good days are more frequent than the challenging days.
The contact with their father is also going well. In those every 2 weeks on Saturday afternoon that they are together, they quietly build back on a connection that was completely lost.
I also started cognitive behavioral therapy. And what a revelation that is to me. I can recommend this to everyone on this forum. You really get to work with yourself and get a lot out of this.
My relationship with EXH (I can say G again) is still going well. He has had 1 relapse since the end of June until now, but otherwise he remains stable and seems to be back to the way he was before his MLC. The relationship with his family seems to have completely recovered, he now sees his best friend on a regular basis and he has bought a house in the town we used to live in (just before BD he absolutely wanted to leave there, couldn't go fast enough as hated the town), the house he now bought there is even a mini version of the house we had there together. He also is back in contact with old colleagues, and finally also a very important person for him who completely blocked him since that person couldn't deal with him anymore, he will now see him again at the end of this month. With that man G had to try at least 6 or 7 times before he finally agreed to meet him again, and G didn't give up until he finally agreed. Talking about persistence...which of course is a good sign. Actions speak louder than words.
The past weeks he is very active with messages to me as well, this almost on a daily basis. Mostly about the children, the recent days more about personal things as well. He sends pictures of the home he bought. He even called just now and we were on the phone for 40 minutes talking about our daily lives. We can get along now like good acquaintances.
I don't have any expectations for a re-reconciliation anymore, I just want to build a normal friendly relationship.
He also knows very clearly that neither the kids nor I want anything to do with OW2, although it's not clear whether or not she's still in the picture, but I honestly don't need to know anymore. He takes this into account and keeps this completely separate from us.
I also had a car that he had taken over the beginning of this year, with the divorce. This car he bought just before BD, and was the car I always wanted since I was little.
The horrifying aspect was that he had let OW2 drive it these past months.
I honestly found this really difficult. But...it turns out that the car was sold last week.
This made me very happy. I prefer the car being sold rather than an OW driving it. LOL
I'm quite sure he is on his way to acceptance.
But acceptance doesn't mean he wants his old life back.
And the same counts for me, I don't want my old life back.
So much has happened, so much time has passed.
They ruin your life and you don't have another choice than to go through it and rebuilt it on your own, and then you realize that your new life is actually quite good, maybe even better than it was before BD.
The first 3 years I wanted reconciliation so badly, the past year this has slowly extinguished without me even realizing it.
That is why this quote has been very important to me this past year:
The past is behind, learn from it. The future is ahead, prepare for it...
Well, I'm prepared for the future now. Will inform you how it will evolve...
Have a good day xxx
Forgot to mention...he even has a new job since the beginning of September. Is partly his own business now (bought himself in in an already existing company) and seems happy in his new role.
Let's hope for the childrens' mind (and my own) we can move forward now in this positive way.
They ruin your life and you don't have another choice than to go through it and rebuilt it on your own, and then you realize that your new life is actually quite good, maybe even better than it was before BD.
THIS!!!!!! If you can move through the crucible in a positive way, you come out much stronger in the end. In my case, it made me pretty fearless too. After all, the worst had already happened - the loss of my 24 year marriage - and compared to that, what were little things like a breakup with a boyfriend or performing music onstage or whatever. My life is good now, despite the ups and downs in my dating life, despite the death of CMM. My kids are close with me, my finances are in order, I like the house I bought after my divorce, I have good friends. Nothing to complain about!
Here's the need to write down everything from the last month. After all, it is here that my full story has already been written down, along with all the feelings I have experienced these past years.
First of all, everything is going well, I feel that I still have everything on track and lead a normal and happy life again, only now without EXH, which I have fully accepted by the way.
The Cognitive behavioral therapy is also going better than I could have ever hoped for. A lot comes up, things that I absolutely did not know about myself and that I’m fully working through, this with the help of an incredibly good therapist. I can only say that this is very enriching.
The children are also doing very well. They have completely settled into their new life (and our new home) and the bond with their father is gently restoring in a positive direction. They helped him move into his new home this week that he bought. They still live with me full time, they now see him about once a week for a few hours, but they definitely don't want to sleep there yet. I respect this, so does he, and don't even ask about it.
The course I am taking is very intense and time consuming but really interesting. It makes me feel valuable to be able to do this.
The relationship with G (that's what I can call him again today) continues to be positive. We have very regular contact in a friendly way. Which helps is that the affair with OW2 has ended since the end of August, and I have the impression that he is moving positively towards acceptance again (see all the obvious signs described below), although he still has his relapses but these are very rare. His new job also does wonders, he genuinely likes it and that translates into a more positive attitude in all areas. He even asked me to look at his new house yesterday, as well as for an aperitif with our 2 best friends. However, I only stayed a very short time, partly because I had a date planned that same evening. He asked my opinion on where to put everything etc and the interaction was very nice.
I have also taken steps on a relational personal level. I went on a date for the first time last week, friendly man but it turned out that it's not immediately my thing, yesterday I had a new date. Was pleasant but I do notice that I am very selective, which maybe is not bad. The most important thing here for me is that I'm having fun. I don't want a man in my house tomorrow, I'm definitely not ready for that because I really enjoy my freedom as a single now, I just want to have fun, get to know people, and who knows, maybe something more in the future.
G also recently asked via message if I had met anyone. I've just been honest. That I'm open to it but for the time being I don't have anyone serious because I don't want to give up my freedom now.
Yesterday, after my visit to his house, he had also sent a message. That he really appreciated my opinion and that he was happy to see me again and that I looked really good. Weird to get something like that from him, haven't heard this from him in such a long time.
However, sometimes I still have the question, what if something would grow again between G and I? Would I still allow this? The weird thing is I don't have an answer to that…sometimes I think, no, so much has happened, he hasn't been a beautiful person in many ways, certainly not the last few years with his MLC, but he wasn't the easiest before either. Now I lead a life where I decide 100% myself where I go, what I do, and I really love that. On the other hand I think, ok, but being alone is only alone, I sometimes miss sharing things and moments with someone I love, and with a new person it won't always be all sunshine neither…and I still have a familiar and pleasant feeling towardd G when we interact with each other.
I am convinced that I have let him go completely, but this is still a question mark. Is this because deep down I still love him and the familiarity we had with each other in my eyes is the easier way or do I really not want him anymore but I maybe that I hope that one day he realizes what he has thrown away, that he also feels a little bit how much he has hurt everybody around him.
Let this be the only question marks I have today, so I can't complain at all, hey, that was once different. LOL
Now at the airport as I will be traveling alone for a few days. A little ME-time. Looking forward to it.
Have A Nice Day.
Eaglexxx
Good Morning Eagle
It’s wonderful to see you and the kids settled in to your new life and home. Everything on track and leading a normal happy life. Good for you. That’s no small feat.
Glad you are finding the course rewarding. Nothing like some intense study to get the synapses all firing up.
Interesting G/XH’s path. G is surfaced and seems to have regained control; again moving towards acceptance. More and more trauma(s) he figures out, and more positive movement he makes. It’s good to see him working on his relationship with his kids too.
Congrats on the date. And do be selective. You are worth it!
I completely understand the enjoying being single. No need to rush to change that. You’ll know when/if it’s right.
Questioning if something could grow between you and G again, is perfectly normal. And not having an answer to if you would even allow it, is also perfectly normal. Yes, you have let go. Let time and his consistent demonstrated behaviour provide clarity and an answer of if you would like to reach out again. For now, perhaps, just place G in the pool of guys you might date; and see what happens.
The stereotypical canon of the MLC path has the MLCer having all the power at first. Bomb drop is exercising that power. They run off to their new shinny wonderful life, feeling all powerful and in complete control.
Slowly, years later, that power shifts. The LBS heals and becomes in a position of power and control.
For those fortunate few MLCers that find their way through their fog and torment, they find themselves having done monstrous things and their power gone. For those with the courage to face their poorly treated spouse they wonder and fear and hope. Will they face vengeance, anger, hatred, reprisal, love, indifference, forgiveness, etc. The power has shifted.
We are far from when we would have crawled across broken glass to win our spouse back. Plenty of time has passed since those days.
Enjoy your trip and me-time.
D
Hi Eagle. I enjoyed reading your update. What struck me the most about your ex is that he surfaces just when you've truly moved on. How many times have we read that? It's hard to know if this is a touch and go or a real wake up call for him to change his life.
The best part of all of this is that you remain unaffected by whatever he's going through. For those left behind the key to survival and then thriving is true detachment.
I'm proud of you and very happy that you're taking time for yourself.
xoxo
Thank you D and B, for always giving me the support I need.
What you write above is indeed completely true, this has been proven again in the last few days.
As I said, I was away for a week, completely on my own, to the northern part of Italy, and I must confess that this was the trip of my life.
On a personal level, this was very enriching and also the first time I've done something just for myself. I am very proud of that.
And then one comes back home…
After returning from the trip this weekend, G/XH wanted to speak to me at his home…
How do I start…
So the R with OW2 is over...the reason for this is quite a shock...
The R apparantly was also very difficult. Fights on a regular basis, they broke up several times these past 2 years.
But... turns out she is pregnant, 44 years old and pregnant of his child…
He didn't want the child, she decided on her own to keep it. She wants to stay in her country of origin and raise the child there, he didn't want this. Now they have no contact anymore with each other.
The only person who knows this is his father, and now me.
Sorry for my language, but can this whole sh*tstory become any worse???
He also said that he destroyed everything. That he doesn’t dare to admit that I am the love of his life, that his ego has the upper hand in this, especially towards the outside world.
That he has been living in a fog for the past 4 years, a fog that is now slowly clearing.
He said that I'm probably right, that he's in a midlife crisis, that he wanted to try a completely different life but it turned the other way around.
He doesn't know what to do. He does not want this child, but also does not know what will happen once it is born. (planned for February)
He also wants to tell the truth to our children, I told him not to do this yet, that he must first know which direction this will all go before saying anything to them.
This will be very hurtful to them, I'm sure.
He is afraid she will contact me or the kids via social media. (she can find us through there of course) He doesn't think so, but isn't quite sure. That's why he wants to be ahead of her.
Surprisingly, I have remained very calm under all this.
He constantly wanted to lay in my arms, he needed security, I gave him this.
I don't know why, but it just felt right at the time, as weird as that sounds. We sat on the couch for a few hours, the man is completely broken.
The bottom line is that he really only has me to talk about this. It doesn't work with his father as he doesn’t want to hear anything about it.
Are there any stories on the forum in the past where this happened as well?
All advice is welcome.
well, my first thought is she can be blocked on social media and I recommend you do so. this is not your circus and most definitely not your monkeys ...
if you can figure out a way to have the kids block her also, that might be a good idea? only you will know for sure about that though.
consequences = a b*tch in heels.
I sometimes think we get these beautiful experiences, i.e. your Italian trip, to help brace us for the next wave ... just remember, you didn't cause this, you can't cure it and you sure as heck can't control it. I'm drawing a blank on whether this is something which has happened here before. I would just stay on your own course and hold exh in fierce compassion - which, as a reminder, means you feel compassion for him, but hold firm boundaries and let him face his consequences. xoxo hope this helps. I'd love to hear more about the Italy trip.
He constantly wanted to lay in my arms, he needed security, I gave him this.
I don't know why, but it just felt right at the time, as weird as that sounds. We sat on the couch for a few hours, the man is completely broken.
Your story reminds me of the movie Forrest Gump. Your Exh is like Ginny who was also broken. Whenever anything got to deep for her she would run to Forrest for the support and ego boost. Once she got it and felt better she was gone and Forrest was left there wondering what happened.
Forrest had unconditional love for Ginny but I bet it wasn't easy for him. Forrest thought she was worth it so I guess your are going to have to figure out if your exh is worth the ins and outs and ups and downs.
Are there any stories on the forum in the past where this happened as well?
All advice is welcome.
I don't recall anything as individual as yours, but yes, there are stories here about "after rock bottom" and the eventual slow climb out .
There are stories about the 'sane' side of MLC, and the affects that they have had, and the collateral damage that has to be worked through.
AmyC, Spirit/Mirage, MrCAS to name a a couple. There are some older ones that maybe Job remembers also. Possibly, because I can't remember exactly, RCR, Myfavoriteweirdo...???
There are some threads here from posters who's MLCer has come home, and the piecing efforts during that time...
BrandNewDay, Yellowrose, Jack3Beans to name a couple....
I have had conversations with several MLCer's about their time in the tunnel. The "Fog" seems to be the most mentioned part of it. The knowing that they are causing the damage, yet have felt compelled, and felt as though they had no choice but to try to find the ever-elusive happiness.
The most astounding one was a friend that told me that she had a baby, and when she woke, he was 4 years old....
I have another friend that is newly re-married to his former MLCer, and has had some similar conversations in the past 2 years.
I guess it best to ask...
What is the ending that you seek from this ???
What do you find yourself wanting to work toward ???
What is it that you want ???
If it is reconciliation....
What does that look like for you ???
How will you know when you get there ???
What steps and boundaries would you need in place if that were to happen ???
Would you be willing to accept a child of his, that isn't yours ???
It's funny, when we get here, we are told that the outcome of this ultimately lies with the LBS....
Which is where you are heading.
Just remember that nothing has changed just yet.
Keep doing and being you for now....
When the wayward returns....
They will pursue.......HARD.....
So maybe know those answers ^^^, if that were to happen....
Hello Eagle
It is great to hear that your trip was so wonderful. I bet the one week went by pretty quickly. Was this your first big trip solo?
And then home…
And like has been stated, not your circus not your monkeys. You now know more of XH’s situation is all.
G and OW2 have been fighting and are now broke up (maybe for good this time). Lies and deceit flow and shift like sand. And sand is a terrible foundation to build upon. Any relationship built upon such will take much energies to keep it propped up.
OW2 pregnant is quite a shock. It certainly happens, with MLCers running from responsibilities and living more risky lives. Many seek thrills and spontaneity. And some end up with more responsibility than they ever suspected.
Sorry for my language, but can this whole sh*tstory become any worse???
One of my many favourite quotes is nothing is so bad that is cannot get worse. At first read that sounds rather doom and gloom. It actually isn’t though when one thinks about it.
Also, if something can get worse, it can get better too.
Are there any stories on the forum in the past where this happened as well?
I cannot recall any particular poster here on this forum. I do recall another site where a women’s H got his AP pregnant. The W and H actually reconciled. In that case, the AP did not run off, and was somewhat in their lives, since his child was. The W found peace with things. The child was, and is not to blame, an innocent soul. She accepted the child. Pretty amazing.
He constantly wanted to lay in my arms, he needed security, I gave him this.
I don't know why, but it just felt right at the time, as weird as that sounds. We sat on the couch for a few hours, the man is completely broken.
By far, most people need to hit rock bottom before they will change. Broken and hurt, then they rebuild.
As was asked by others, what is your desire or want? Do you seek to reconcile? Or see the possibility of reconciliation?
You’ve not permanently slammed the door on XH. It’s open a crack. Some folks close the door and nail it shut. I figure you are open to seeing what possibilities exist, and then going from there.
He also said that he destroyed everything. That he doesn’t dare to admit that I am the love of his life, that his ego has the upper hand in this, especially towards the outside world.
That he has been living in a fog for the past 4 years, a fog that is now slowly clearing.
He said that I'm probably right, that he's in a midlife crisis, that he wanted to try a completely different life but it turned the other way around.
That quite an admission from him.
A baby 3 months away is a lot of pressure, and G is not running.
He also wants to tell the truth to our children, I told him not to do this yet, that he must first know which direction this will all go before saying anything to them.
This will be very hurtful to them, I'm sure.
He is afraid she will contact me or the kids via social media. (she can find us through there of course) He doesn't think so, but isn't quite sure. That's why he wants to be ahead of her.
I think informing the kids would be a good thing. I do understand your concerns regarding when to tell them. Getting ahead of her and any surprises will be beneficial.
As we discussed, the power has shifted to you. What manner of relationship you and G have is going to be up to you. Some thoughts:
Figure out what you want. If you are willing to explore anything with G. Date him if so inclined.
Keep doing what you are doing. You are living a great life, let G catch up.
Remain your compassionate self.
Realize G has to purge OW2 from himself. I always envision a 12 month rule for the healed MLCer having no contact with their AP before any living together again, and the clocks resets if there is any contact or reaching out to AP. Obviously that won’t work if G is involved in the child’s life. Still, some metric or tangible evidence of consistent demonstrated behaviour is required.
MLCers do not awaken with a sudden and grand vision. Awakening is a whisper of doubt within them. G has heard that for a while and seems to be taking it to heart.
D
Eagle3,
Glad you had a great trip to Italy.
Wow, what a homecoming. Between you and job some unexpected news posted here recently. Not sure what advice to give in dealing with ExH...but definitely wishing you the best.
I'd love to hear more about the Italy trip.
Hi Bttrfly,
Well, the Italian trip was simply amazing. This is actually the first time in about 25 years that I did something completely for myself and I enjoyed it to the fullest.
I went to a wellness & retreat center, this to work further on myself and to further explore and discover the new me. I have met some wonderful people of which most of them had some trauma’s in the past (I’m pretty convinced that most people only start working on themselves when something traumatic happened to them) and who also want to work through this.
I’m on a journey now which I most probably would never have experienced if I was still married to EXH, so in a certain way I’m grateful for that.
The program was with lots of yoga, meditation, open sessions, wellness, massages, walks in nature etc. And you simply join or book what you want, on your own timing. The food was amazing as well. So definitely something I will do again next year and I would recommend everybody to do such a trip. It is very enriching.
Your story reminds me of the movie Forrest Gump. Your Exh is like Ginny who was also broken. Whenever anything got to deep for her she would run to Forrest for the support and ego boost. Once she got it and felt better she was gone and Forrest was left there wondering what happened. Forrest had unconditional love for Ginny but I bet it wasn't easy for him. Forrest thought she was worth it so I guess your are going to have to figure out if your exh is worth the ins and outs and ups and downs.
Dear LH,
Thank you for your honest feedback and indeed, I can relate to what you write above, I surely have unconditional love for him as well, he too is a broken person, but the only difference is that I’m not wondering what just happened. I allow it because I want to allow it for myself and because I finally accepted that I am a pleaser and I will always be one.
These past years I blamed myself for being “weak”, and I couldn’t understand why I always wanted to help him, although all the bad things he did to me and the children. But I have learned not to fight this anymore. I am who I am and I finally have peace with that. I will help him in a certain way, and I will do this as long as it feels good for me. If not, I will walk away from it.
I don’t experience any pain anymore from doing so, on the contrary, I’m even happy with it now, I embrace it.
Dear Mach,
Thank you for the sharing of the threads of people whereby some of the MLC’ers made it to the other side. I will try to look them up and read them. I’m convinced my EXH is definitely not there yet. Maybe on his way back but he still has a very long way to go.
The questions you have mentioned I have been asking myself as well.
I want to work towards some sort of friendship in the first place so when he reaches out when he has difficult times and it works for me I will be there for him. I don’t seek reconciliation, this simply because the man I see in front of me is not a man I would want to date and definitely not be married to. Yes, I still feel a lot of love for him but the life I have now is much better then it was these past years so why would I want to give that up. The easy part is that I have my own place, I’m completely financially independent so if he wants to see me I go to his house, not the other way around, as my own place is my holy place now. He can come here to pick up the kids, to have a drink, but not to have serious conversations, this has to be in his house. I don’t want the children to be around that anymore. If however he would turn into a man which I would want to date, then I would consider it, but definitely no chance if this is not the case. I keep on doing what I have been doing, and that is simply live my life to the fullest. As Job wrote in the final chapter of her thread. (“To reclaim the person you once were, learn new hobbies, travel, meet new people and yes, even develop a new relationship.” – this is what I’m doing, although still WIP for the new relationship though, don’t want that yet, live is too good on my own, a date once and while will do for now, LOL)
It is great to hear that your trip was so wonderful. I bet the one week went by pretty quickly. Was this your first big trip solo?
Hi DnJ,
Yes, it was. And what a fantastic journey it was!
And like has been stated, not your circus not your monkeys. You now know more of XH’s situation is all.
Completely right, not my story, not my monkeys. But it can have an affect on my children and this is not something I wanted anymore.
At one point I asked him, was it all worth it, what you experienced and what you have been through these past 4 years? The lost/destroyed connections with family and friends, the death of OW1, the divorce, the job switches, the move to another country and finally...making a woman pregnant who does not want you in the life of the child....nor you want this...
That's when he told me about the fog, and that this was not what he wanted at all. And all this is still unprocessed... can you imagine what he will face once this all comes to the surface...
I wouldn't be surpised him running again. Well, only time will tell I guess.
Remain your compassionate self.
THIS!!! Always, something I have learned from you.
BL,
Thank you for your comforting words.
Dear Mach,
Thank you for the sharing of the threads of people whereby some of the MLC’ers made it to the other side. I will try to look them up and read them. I’m convinced my EXH is definitely not there yet. Maybe on his way back but he still has a very long way to go.
The questions you have mentioned I have been asking myself as well.
I want to work towards some sort of friendship in the first place so when he reaches out when he has difficult times and it works for me I will be there for him. I don’t seek reconciliation, this simply because the man I see in front of me is not a man I would want to date and definitely not be married to. Yes, I still feel a lot of love for him but the life I have now is much better then it was these past years so why would I want to give that up. The easy part is that I have my own place, I’m completely financially independent so if he wants to see me I go to his house, not the other way around, as my own place is my holy place now. He can come here to pick up the kids, to have a drink, but not to have serious conversations, this has to be in his house. I don’t want the children to be around that anymore. If however he would turn into a man which I would want to date, then I would consider it, but definitely no chance if this is not the case. I keep on doing what I have been doing, and that is simply live my life to the fullest. As Job wrote in the final chapter of her thread. (“To reclaim the person you once were, learn new hobbies, travel, meet new people and yes, even develop a new relationship.” – this is what I’m doing, although still WIP for the new relationship though, don’t want that yet, live is too good on my own, a date once and while will do for now, LOL)
I love what Job posted, and so accurate.
Just want you to understand that when the MLCer returns, they typically pursue HARD....
IF.....IF he is coming through the tunnel, that could happen....
As for the threads....
AmyC had some amazing stuff out there, and her threads didn't fully capture her over 12,000 posts here.
Read the tail end of this one for some insight on the MLC mind coming out of this....
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1227647&Board=9Stay strong, stay well, and always stay you....
Dear DB people,
We are 6 weeks further now after my last thread and I thought it was time to share where I am currently.
As you know, EXH has entered another phase of its MLC since mid-2022. The process is moving slowly but still in the right direction which is great news.
The contact with the children is getting better and better. He's trying incredibly hard to be a good father to them. A father who approaches them positively, who is caring and who is also very open about his feelings, and this too in a good way.
Next week he will go on a city trip with them for 2 days. This is the first time since the start of his MLC that he will be completely on his own with our children for longer than 1 full day. They are also looking forward to it.
The contact between us is also very good. I wanted to build a friendly relationship and so far I have succeeded. However, we have a very strong attraction to each other that is difficult to explain, but we can now also name this and deal with it in a good way.
I was on my guard so that I wouldn't make the same mistake I did in the past and lose myself in him, but today I feel stronger than ever. It is true that the strings are now in my hands. I also have never been more honest to him than these past weeks.
We see each other at least once a week, only the 2 of us, this to talk, have dinner, etc.
He shares a lot of information and I can also ask a lot about what has happened in recent years. He tells me about all the things he has destroyed, he speaks a lot about losing himself completely in all the ways possible. He still has a lot hanging above his head, a lot of consequences in regards to his destructive behavior of the past years and he is very afraid of how to deal with that. But he knows this is something he needs to deal with on his own.
We have also talked a lot about our past relationship and marriage.
He is a different person in many ways. Especially to express his feelings. Also to the self-knowledge he has now. Amazingly interesting to see how well he knows himself now. He has apparently been doing a lot of reading and self-evaluation for months now. However, many things have not yet been processed, but he realizes that he still has a long way to go.
It strikes me that the destructive behavior is almost gone, the depression is also less present, but most importantly, the human, or rather the monster he was during his MLC has completely disappeared and he seems to be the human he was before his MLC but different in many ways as well. Hard to explain.
However, he is very insecure about us. He told me that I am the love of his life, that there is no one who understands him as well as I do, that I am his compass, that he is rudderless without me but that through all the circumstances and everything he has done to me , can't / won't make promises about the future, this because he doesn’t trust himself. He wants me to be happy, and he now sees that I am and doesn't want to destroy this. The weird thing is that I feel the same way. We still love each other so much but both do not know if a permanent relationship could still be possible. However, I tell him that we do not need to know this now, that the future will tell.
What I do know now, however, is that it had to be that one of us 2 would meet someone new, that we wouldn't be able to be in each other's lives. I also made this clear to him. We are still way too intertwined that this wouldn't work for me. He realizes this and knows that this was also one of the reasons why it didn't work in his relationships. I was always in the background. For me, however, this is also the reason why I don't allow anyone else in my life today. But I don’t need this either for now.
So for now the situation we find ourselves in today. I don't know where we're going, but I'm not afraid anymore, I know I'll be okay at the end of the day, and that's the main thing.
I wish you a very happy ending of 2022.
May the New Year bring all of you good health, lots of love, peace and happiness.
xxx
Eagle
Morning....
One thing that the returning MLCer fears more than anything is judgement. And who knows where or why they feel it. Most of it is from the guilt that they are carrying inside of them for all of the things that they destroyed along the way.
I would guess that 90% of it is stemming from inside of them and the other 10% is possibly true.
There are people that ARE judging them for their actions during their MLC. As long as it isn't you, then you are fine.
This won't leave easy either, it will linger for the rest of their life.
So for now the situation we find ourselves in today. I don't know where we're going, but I'm not afraid anymore, I know I'll be okay at the end of the day, and that's the main thing.
I would ask you this .....
What does a reconciliation look like to you ??
What steps would have to happen for that to be possible ??
Is reconciliation even something that you want ??
For now though, maybe answer those questions and try not to 'define' anything.
Just enjoy it if you are, and take each moment for what it is....
No more, no less....
Good Morning Eagle
I loved hearing your update.
An awakening is a timid time for one exiting their crisis. There is a lot of soul searching, some deep depression, then a kind of rebirth. After, it will likely take 18-24 months for them to feel comfortable in their own skin, to truly put it all (or mostly all) behind them and live forward.
It is so interesting seeing XH (G ?) exhibiting such self awareness. I think G is probably more apt regarding the majority of his behaviour. Weekly dinners, open and honest talks, a trip with the kids, all very good steps.
Sounds like you are handling yourself most well. A testament to the self work you accomplished.
Wishing you all the best in this and the new year!
Much love and respect,
D
Hi E,
I think the kindest and most generous thing you can do for all concerned (your children, yourself and your exh) is to remain your most fiercely compassionate self. Mach is correct about judgment being a huge fear.
If you both decide to piece, from what I've read that's the toughest road yet. Westo, Jack3Beans, LABug are three people who pieced. I know that if you want to go that route, you will have to dig deeper than you ever have before for patience.
Best to still keep the focus on yourself and your kids while remaining compassionate.
Oh, Eagle, wow, oh wow. I had a friend not from here but from marriage ministry who pieced, and they are restored. She still suffers from the pain of it all but is committed to rebuilding. She is very Christian and leans on her faith when her will wants no part of the pain of memory.
Eagle, you have been a real friend to me on these boards and I want to send you love and courage and strength on your journey. I hope you have a local friend to talk to about things to help stay clear-headed. I truly believe in restoration, hope you can take it slower than slower than slow. Sending you love and a bouquet of wildflowers and a prayer and a cup of tea with a friend.
Take things slowly and do not attempt to rush the process. Be a friend, listen, allow him to come to you and talk. Do not offer up advice unless he asks for it. It took a long time for the crisis to occur and it will take some time for him to feel comfortable, not only in his own skin, but with all. He has a lot of guilt, and is afraid of judgment and criticism.
Here's a thread that I created many years ago that may provide some insight into reconnection for you. The thread is entitled "TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484751#Post2484751The reconnection is the hardest part of the journey. Why? Because, if he is reconnecting, you will want to get things back on track as soon as possible and it will not work that way. If you push or things happen too soon, he could be right out the door once again. Patience is the key. Wishing you the best of luck and if you get frustrated, please come here to talk. The door is always open.
One thing that the returning MLCer fears more than anything is judgement. And who knows where or why they feel it. Most of it is from the guilt that they are carrying inside of them for all of the things that they destroyed along the way. I would guess that 90% of it is stemming from inside of them and the other 10% is possibly true. There are people that ARE judging them for their actions during their MLC. As long as it isn't you, then you are fine. This won't leave easy either, it will linger for the rest of their life.
I think the kindest and most generous thing you can do for all concerned (your children, yourself and your exh) is to remain your most fiercely compassionate self. Mach is correct about judgment being a huge fear.
Take things slowly and do not attempt to rush the process. Be a friend, listen, allow him to come to you and talk. Do not offer up advice unless he asks for it. It took a long time for the crisis to occur and it will take some time for him to feel comfortable, not only in his own skin, but with all. He has a lot of guilt, and is afraid of judgment and criticism.
Hi Mach, bttrfly, Job,
What you have made clear above is indeed one of his greatest fears, which is being judged for all that he has done. This is a present a lot of times in our conversations. He is very critical about himself at certain times and at other times he laughs it off. Kind of strange to witness this. I do try to be a good friend to him. However, we have come to the point that he now really shares everything with me, and there are sometimes things that are very profound, also a lot about the OW's. F.e. I only knew of 2 OW's but there have been many more. He had 2 "fix" relationships (being OW1 and OW2 in my eyes) but cheated many times on both of them as well. The reason why it lasted longer with these 2 is because he had feelings for them.
But I can handle it amazingly enough. It is even important for me to know all this so that I can also give this a place. Is it normal for him to do this, he says that he can only talk about all of this with me. That he finds the psychological help which he know he needs within the conversations with me, because I am the only one who knows him so well and who always shows understanding and compassion. Yesterday he texted me again to thank me for the support I give him and that he will never take it for granted again like he used to. That he wants to do the same for me. If I struggle with something that I can contact him at all times.
I would ask you this .....
What does a reconciliation look like to you ??
What steps would have to happen for that to be possible ??
Is reconciliation even something that you want ??
For now though, maybe answer those questions and try not to 'define' anything.
Mach,
Very good questions, but I can't answer them myself. The true love is present, but reconciliation is a very big step which takes much more than simply plain love. I still don't want the person I see in front of me today as a fixed value in my life, because he is still very occupied with himself, but also because not all flee behavior has disappeared yet. He still drinks a lot and still has moments when he says things that don't make any sense at all. So I'm not going to define this yet.
What I do know for sure is that today we are building a good friendship where honesty, understanding and respect are central. If this goes the other way again I'm sure I'll walk away from it. This is the basis for me to go forward.
An awakening is a timid time for one exiting their crisis. There is a lot of soul searching, some deep depression, then a kind of rebirth. After, it will likely take 18-24 months for them to feel comfortable in their own skin, to truly put it all (or mostly all) behind them and live forward.
It is so interesting seeing XH (G ?) exhibiting such self awareness. I think G is probably more apt regarding the majority of his behaviour. Weekly dinners, open and honest talks, a trip with the kids, all very good steps.
Hi D,
Yes, G is present 80% of the times when we are in touch with each other, which is actually on a daily basis now, mostly through messages. From what I guess (I say guess because with MLC you never really know what is going on) he had several awakenings throughout the whole MLC period, but this one seems to last already 4 to 6 months with a lot of ups and downs. The soul searching is definitely there, depression as well but still hidden in certain ways. Difficult to say and I won’t even try to analyze it anymore. Have done this so much the first two years and I promised myself to never go that way again since it drives you mad at a certain point. He and he alone is responsible for it, and I can only show my understanding and compassion, and this at times when it also feels right for me.
If you both decide to piece, from what I've read that's the toughest road yet. Westo, Jack3Beans, LABug are three people who pieced. I know that if you want to go that route, you will have to dig deeper than you ever have before for patience.
B,
I know this but can’t tell yet if I want to take that road. I know I want him in my life when he is G, I only don’t know yet in what position.
Best to still keep the focus on yourself and your kids while remaining compassionate.
I certainly do so. You have educated me well. 😊
Eagle, you have been a real friend to me on these boards and I want to send you love and courage and strength on your journey. I hope you have a local friend to talk to about things to help stay clear-headed. I truly believe in restoration, hope you can take it slower than slower than slow. Sending you love and a bouquet of wildflowers and a prayer and a cup of tea with a friend.
Dear Gerda,
Many thanks for your kind words. They mean so much to me. You are a true soul. I have one best friend, I know her since we were young and she knows everything. She also does not judge and remains compassionate at all times. Also something I truly need in my life.
The reconnection is the hardest part of the journey. Why? Because, if he is reconnecting, you will want to get things back on track as soon as possible and it will not work that way. If you push or things happen too soon, he could be right out the door once again. Patience is the key. Wishing you the best of luck and if you get frustrated, please come here to talk. The door is always open.
Thank you Job. I know what you mean by that. Sometimes this is the case as you have many good memories together, it was once very good between us and you long for those moments but then you have to focus very well not to because this is simply not there anymore. But since I've been through this several times with him in recent years (not the first time he reconnects) I've learned from my mistakes and distanced myself enough to deal with this.
I will certainly come here to talk when I have moments where I don’t know how to deal with it.
To all of you, thanks again for the support xxx
Eagle I want to start out by saying I think you are doing a great job post divorce!
I do want to ask you one question. Does the below continue if he is in a relationship with another woman?
That he finds the psychological help which he know he needs within the conversations with me, because I am the only one who knows him so well and who always shows understanding and compassion. Yesterday he texted me again to thank me for the support I give him and that he will never take it for granted again like he used to. That he wants to do the same for me. If I struggle with something that I can contact him at all times.
I would ask you this .....
What does a reconciliation look like to you ??
What steps would have to happen for that to be possible ??
Is reconciliation even something that you want ??
For now though, maybe answer those questions and try not to 'define' anything.
Mach,
Very good questions, but I can't answer them myself. The true love is present, but reconciliation is a very big step which takes much more than simply plain love. I still don't want the person I see in front of me today as a fixed value in my life, because he is still very occupied with himself, but also because not all flee behavior has disappeared yet. He still drinks a lot and still has moments when he says things that don't make any sense at all. So I'm not going to define this yet.
What I do know for sure is that today we are building a good friendship where honesty, understanding and respect are central. If this goes the other way again I'm sure I'll walk away from it. This is the basis for me to go forward.
I think you absolutely get to answer those for yourself....
And I think you are answering them even in your response to me about not answering them : )
I think that you have some great milestones to recognize what you will and will not allow in whatever a relationship looks like, and that is where I want you to be with this...
I also think that at some point, you have to know what the signs are if he were to come to you and say that he wants to be with you.
And you definitely have the power to say either yes, or no...
And knowing those answers now is a whole lot easier than trying to figure them out on the run...
I know you aren't there or even thinking that yet....
However....I think you will be thankful by knowing things now.
For example....
If he is still drinking a lot, would you want a relationship with him ?
If anyone that you were thinking about being in a relationship with was a heavy drinker, would you want a relationship with them ?
During my time standing, I made myself a template of what I wanted my next partner to look like in my life, and even if it was my wayward spouse, she would still have to go up against my template...
And what I learned was, that even though my next partner was around a 95% match for me, it wasn't the 95% that we matched that eventually became important, it was how we dealt with the remaining 5% that was the important part...
I do feel that those answers would be advantageous to know now.....rather than later....
Eagle I want to start out by saying I think you are doing a great job post divorce!
I do want to ask you one question. Does the below continue if he is in a relationship with another woman?
That he finds the psychological help which he know he needs within the conversations with me, because I am the only one who knows him so well and who always shows understanding and compassion. Yesterday he texted me again to thank me for the support I give him and that he will never take it for granted again like he used to. That he wants to do the same for me. If I struggle with something that I can contact him at all times.
Hi LH,
Good question, which I actually already gave in my thread of 29/12:
"What I do know now, however, is that it had to be that one of us 2 would meet someone new, that we wouldn't be able to be in each other's lives. I also made this clear to him. We are still way too intertwined that this wouldn't work for me. He realizes this and knows that this was also one of the reasons why it didn't work in his relationships. I was always in the background. For me, however, this is also the reason why I don't allow anyone else in my life today. But I don’t need this either for now."
So no, I will not do this when he is in an R with another woman, nor if I would meet somebody myself.
I would ask you this .....
What does a reconciliation look like to you ??
What steps would have to happen for that to be possible ??
Is reconciliation even something that you want ??
For now though, maybe answer those questions and try not to 'define' anything.
Mach,
Very good questions, but I can't answer them myself. The true love is present, but reconciliation is a very big step which takes much more than simply plain love. I still don't want the person I see in front of me today as a fixed value in my life, because he is still very occupied with himself, but also because not all flee behavior has disappeared yet. He still drinks a lot and still has moments when he says things that don't make any sense at all. So I'm not going to define this yet.
What I do know for sure is that today we are building a good friendship where honesty, understanding and respect are central. If this goes the other way again I'm sure I'll walk away from it. This is the basis for me to go forward.
I think you absolutely get to answer those for yourself....
And I think you are answering them even in your response to me about not answering them : )
I do feel that those answers would be advantageous to know now.....rather than later....
Hi Mach,
Makes sense. I have been thinking about this the past week and as you state, yes, I already have an answer to these questions, I only did not know it myself yet. LOL
I also explain some more in my general thread as I will write an update of the current situation now.
Good morning,
The current situation is that we are still evolving in the same way. G and I see each other on a weekly basis and are in frequent contact via messages. Last week he was on a ski trip with his best friend pre-MLC and he called at a certain point as there were some frustrations during the trip. His friend is also not the most easy person going forward and he needed to vent because he knew he might lash out at him otherwise. He even mentioned that if this had been the situation last year he would certainly have left immediately but now wants to deal with it in a better way and that is to talk about it first which he has done now. So he is slowly learning and making progress.
The conversations about what happened the past years have stopped in the last 2 weeks. Currently we are simply sort of dating and having fun. Last week, during his trip, he sent a message asking if I would be availabe on Saturday evening to do something together, just the two of us. (first time he asked it so directly). However, I had already planned a dinner with family and didn't want to reschedule this for him, I won't do that anymore. I will continue to live my own life for now. I told him to reschedule our together time to the Sunday evening.
Since it was his brother who came over with wife and kids I asked him if he would like to join which he did. It was a nice evening but G again drank way too much. Afterwards, when everybody was gone he ordered a taxi. When he left he gave a hug and said that I have to pay attention that I don't hurt myself again as he couldn't give what I wanted. (as if he would now what I want :)) I didn't say anything since he was way to wasted to talk. He also sent a message afterwards to ask if I would come to his house (for the wrong reasons if you understand what I mean) and I said no, we have agreed to see each other the next day and he replied that this wouldn't happen if I didn't come over now, clearly manipulation again, so I didn't reply anymore.
The next day however he immediatly sent a reply to say he was sorry for his reaction and that he really wanted me to come over that evening. I assume he read his messages again, and was quite shocked of what he sent because I'm pretty sure he didn't remember it anymore.
We then agreed to watch a movie at his house last night. The atmosphere was very relaxing. He didn't drink at all. He is also very sweet and concerned about me. Much more then he used to be. F.e. it was raining a lot and when I was on my way to his house he texted to say he had moved his own car out of the carport so I could park there so I wouldn't get wet. There is also more and more intimacy between us. By intimacy I also mean caressing, not just the purely sexual side.
When I arrived home again I sent a message to say I arrived safe (he always asks me to do this) and he yet again sent a message to thank me for the nice evening and to thank me for the support he gets from me.
However, I feel very strongly that the this is not yet the time for reconcilliaton. We are really in the reconnection phase today. The future will show which direction this will take. However, I think about it as little as possible. I won't say I don't think about it, but I know it will take a lot of time if we both would choose to move forward in that direction.
If I look at him purely from a distance, I know that he is still in his MLC, that much is clear. See the running behavior and the manipulation when he is drinking...
TBC...
Have a nice Monday everybody!
E xxx
ok. good update. i like that you didn't change your plans and i also would pay attention to his behavior and what he said - in vino veritas ...
you'd have to ask someone else who has gone through reconnection and reconciliation to see if what i'm about to say is correct:
if this was someone you just met, would you continue the relationship?
If so then maybe that's the question to always keep in your mind.
Good Morning Eagle
Good to see G take action/reach out during his ski trip rather than just bolt. Emotional growth.
I do wonder about his drinking too much. Or even at all. The evening with brother, wife, and kids vs the evening with just you. Is he utilizing drink to cope with stress of so much family? Or certain family? I find it very interesting that he remains drink-free when in certain situations. Do you know how he handled the ski trip incident, in regards to imbibing?
I agree H is reconnecting. He is still timid, yet getting more comfortable. Drink does brings back more H and less G. As you say, still in MLC. Nearing the finial stages IMHO, yet still MLC until final acceptance is reached.
At this stage, these folks are hurt and healing, and likely not someone we’d date if just meeting them. Thing is, we didn’t just meet them. Entangled lives and all that. The overarching direction of your path is still to keep moving forward and let him catch up with you.
We’ve talked before about the shift of power as a MLCer moves through their crisis. And the power has certainly shifted. I think you are wisely using it to influence and inspire G. One with less inner work would demand answers, punish, and control.
I see plenty of hope in your inspiring story life.
D
Hi Eagle, I'm a newbie here, and just wanted to thank you for continuing to share your story. My best wishes as you continue to stay strong and move forward.
ok. good update. i like that you didn't change your plans and i also would pay attention to his behavior and what he said - in vino veritas ...
Hi B,
No, I have grown so much these past years that I will not let anybody influence my life anymore in that way. G is aware of that, and this has been even more clear the past week. I’ll explain later.
if this was someone you just met, would you continue the relationship? If so then maybe that's the question to always keep in your mind.
At this stage, these folks are hurt and healing, and likely not someone we’d date if just meeting them. Thing is, we didn’t just meet them. Entangled lives and all that. The overarching direction of your path is still to keep moving forward and let him catch up with you.
B, good question but I can’t compare since this is not the case and I can’t look at him like that. Like D said, this is a person with whom I have lived with half my life, I have always loved and still love this person in a matter that I haven’t loved anyone else. So I cannot answer this question in a rational way.
I do wonder about his drinking too much. Or even at all. The evening with brother, wife, and kids vs the evening with just you. Is he utilizing drink to cope with stress of so much family? Or certain family? I find it very interesting that he remains drink-free when in certain situations. Do you know how he handled the ski trip incident, in regards to imbibing?
Yes, this is indeed something to think about. I have been with him several times this week and then his drinking is not a problem at all. On the ski-trip I would think he will not hold back. Not sure of course but they always went for the après-ski so pretty sure this was not with a soft drink if you know what I mean.
I agree H is reconnecting. He is still timid, yet getting more comfortable. Drink does brings back more H and less G. As you say, still in MLC. Nearing the finial stages IMHO, yet still MLC until final acceptance is reached.
Yes, I’m pretty sure he is.
Hi Eagle, I'm a newbie here, and just wanted to thank you for continuing to share your story. My best wishes as you continue to stay strong and move forward.
Dear Marching,
First of all I would like to say I’m very sorry you also landed in this position. Definitely one of the hardest things I have ever gone through but believe me when I say it, you come out so much stronger if you work on yourself. When I first came here I didn’t know what they meant at all but it sort of comes natural. It simply all takes time. And I’m not talking about your partner’s MLC, I’m talking about your path, your path of growth and understanding.
For me, it all began to change when I fully let go in February of last year. I didn’t even know myself I took the step but I simply didn’t need him anymore. I was just fine on my own, and this feeling grew stronger within a few weeks. If you read my full thread it all began in April 2019, so it took me almost 3 years to be where I wanted to be.
G slowly began to change a few months later, I guess it was around June of 2022 when I saw a shift. He was still with OW2 then. Believe me, I didn’t see it then, or maybe I did but G was such a clinging MLC’er that I could not tell the difference at all. He had been in and out for so many times…
It then still took him months before he told me the first time he really loved me. The first time he did was just before Christmas holiday, so 6 months later.
And still I’m not even sure it will last. Yes, currently it is genuine, that I’m sure of, but with MLC you never know which direction it will go. So I try to stay detached as much as possible but at the same time I’m reconnecting. Kind of strange to use these two words in one sentence but it is definitely possible when you are fully healed.
The past week we have been together on a regular basis and we text and talk a lot. To give you an idea of how their minds work at this stage I’ll give some examples of the messages he gives me and how they can flip flop from one day compared to another day.
1/ I had his sister over for dinner last week.
Day 1, Oh, I would love to come as well.
Day 2: I think this will give the wrong signals towards everybody. I would like to sort everything out for myself without pressure and opinions of other people. I’m enjoying my time with you so much, but I don’t want any pressure nor create expectations.
What is my reaction: Just do whatever you want. You can come, if you don’t want to, don’t come. I also enjoy our time together currently, for me this is just fine. (and this is what I really believe as well). Let’s not make it difficult, difficult has been there enough these past years. He then is completely as ease and I’m as well.
2/ The agreement we made was that he came over for the appetizers, but wouldn’t stay for dinner. So he did. A few hours later messages from him, which I didn’t see immediately since I was having fun with my visitors:
I know we agreed not to…but it hits me in the face…I already miss you so much and I realize how deeply I love you…Sorry
3/ I have been sleeping at his place for the first time this weekend. We had a great night.
Next day: I simply want to thank you for everything en I must say that I really enjoy our time together. This weekend was simply fantastic. Hopefully more to come.
4/ We agreed to go away for 2 days, just the 2 of us. The children are aware that we have contact on a regular basis. For me it is very important to not cover the truth. They are old enough to know this is the case. Of course I don’t share any details, but it is but normal that if I want them to be honest with me I do the same with them. When we talked about going away for a weekend he asked me not to tell the children since he is afraid they will be mad at him again if it eventually would not work out between the two of us. He doesn’t want to be the bad guy. I told him plain and simple I wouldn’t lie towards them. That the reason why they would not have contact with him was because he really hurt them since he completely shut them out of his life and he did things to them in a way that they had to do this to protect themselves. That they will never let him down if he is a good father for them and if he threats the people they love in a good way. I had to make him clear that their R is separate from our potential R. He then was at ease again. His mind still works in a different way then it does within most persons…
So far the update for now.
I’ll try to write soon again!!
And Marching, forgot to add one thing. The reason I share my story here in detail is because I know how important it is for people who are going through the same.
So I will try to do this regularly. I personally do not read all the stories due to lack of time, but whenever I can I’ll share here. Feel free to as questions whenever you want to.
xxx
Eagle, I respectfully disagree with both you and DnJ
Yes, this is someone you've loved more than half a lifetime.
Believe me, I get that.
But, this is also someone who has shown through word, and much more importantly, deed that he is capable of behaviors that are pretty toxic.
Maybe it's just me, but I would carry a hefty bag of healthy skepticism along for the ride on all dates, and try to be as detached as possible.
Again, I would pay more attention to what he does rather than what he says.
Look for consistency.
Eagle,
Please start a new thread.
DnJ
Hey DnJ.
I wanted this on this thread to complete my thoughts on the current mood...
Eagle....When we last talked, I was speaking of you deciding what , when, where, and how you wanted this to go.
I see more of that in YOUR actions now, and I see a small amount of it in his actions. I still wonder though what he feels his roadblocks are at this point.
I see him fearing the judgement, and not knowing how to piece the remnants of his previous life together again with who he has become. Or rather, becoming....
I sense him struggling to have some answers to his own scrambled puzzle, and I wonder how much of that you are directing, and how much he is directing. Kind of like waking up after a weekend bender in college and wondering "where am I, how the hell did I get there, and where are my keys at? " Then trying to fit the timeline into what he remembers and how he feels about it.
Thing is, most of that, are still his answers that he has to work toward, and I feel like he is trying to get them from what he remembers as the "old" version of you. And this new version is surprising him and intriguing him a bit. Yet he is fearing the repercussions of what has been, and is relying on you to fix this for him. And while that might work for a while, it is the most common reason for a "touch and go", that lacking of accountability for his part in this. Which BTW is entirely necessary for him to do if there is any hope of a relationship between the two of you.
With YOUR answers for him ? , I think that you could possibly allow him to slip back in without dealing with that. ^^^
Don't do his work , else he will view this as an easy path home....
Most MLCers that I have talked to, have come back with HARD pursuit trying to get back their life, and I'm just not getting that sense from what you have typed. I see pieces of him pursuing, albeit very timidly and scared. That tells me that he wants it if it is easy for him. There has been an abundance of LBS that have gotten to this point and decided that their answers didn't involve the MLCer too. One of the reasons that we have always said that the LBS holds all of the power in the end.
I'm interested in how the weekend thing is going to be for you. What discussions are had, and how many questions are asked, compared to how many are answered. In what way the answers come, and how much time is invested into the answers. Accountability, ownership, honesty, and acceptance of what happened to his life, your life, and your life together.
Be extremely careful that you aren't answering those for him completely. His answers still need to be his answers. Obviously answer some of the questions, yet talks of the future or a relationship should be driven by him, to see what is going through his head. What he envisions and is working toward. To see if he runs away from those again. If he runs, then the touch and go will be present and you will have some quiet time in your future once again.
When the MLCer comes out of the tunnel, the LBS is light years ahead of them in relationship skills. Your skills should intimidate him slightly. That in itself can be viewed as an arrogance, so be careful with that. You aren't better or worse than him through this, just approaching from a different place. He needs to see you as a contemporary instead of an enemy. His fight will be to catch up if his pursuit is hard. With his words and actions matching precisely...
The Lighthouse is there, not to steer, only to let the Captain know there is an obstacle to navigate.
And I know it sounded as if I was pushing you for those answers, yet it wasn't for no reason.
You need to strive to be a "locked door to a candy store"
You can only take this so far, and your answers will drive how far you take it. HE needs to do the majority of the groundwork from here. Only if that is what you want also....
Nothing has truly been gained that has not been fought for....
Your fight for self has been over the last several years.
What you gained was a life anticipated to be filled full of happiness and peace.
One that you fought hard to earn...
If that effort isn't reciprocated, then your fight for self will all be for not....