Confused But Committed, Part 3

[Hoch]

Hello beautiful people.

Continuing from:

Confused But Committed Part 2

I haven’t posted in a long time, because my sitch has basically continued on unchanged for a long time. I’ve been steadily DBing to good effect since June of 2020. I’m here now because I need advice. Upfront I’d like to ask for no 2x4s at the moment, just kind advice. I’m a little shaky and not ready for them [b][/b]yet.

I’ll sum up for those who don’t remember my story. Wife and I have 2 very active boys, aged 3 and 6. Married 9 years, together 17. She dropped the bomb in 04/20, but we’ve been stuck in pandemic lockdown since, even after moving, as she increasingly distanced. Active kids require constant hands-on parenting, and she has been increasingly angry and “out to lunch” while I’ve had the stress of keeping a remote job to barely make ends meet (spending is part of her antics), while the kids run wild. Cant afford childcare.

Our main issue is that she claims to be asexual, and “will never have sex again,” a card she plays whenever she’s cornered (about anything, esp financial irresponsibility. Ie, “me: you can’t spend like this anymore.” “Her: Well, I’m never having sex with you again, so this marriage can’t last!” Non-sequitur, distraction tactic. I don’t believe it’s real, plus I’ve found she’s been watching racy adult videos in her private time.

I’ve been diligently DBing this whole time, and gotten quite good at it. I focus on myself, the kids, and my work. When resentment pops up, I let it pass and go. I won’t hold resentment for the girl I love, but neither will I allow bad behavior. Mostly these days I have faith that she will come through this. Our biggest current sticking point is that she’s been sleeping later and later (just refusing to get up) while my work deadlines are piling up and the kids need supervision. It creates massive stress for me.

I feel that she is nearing the later stages of the crisis. Those “waves of awareness” are washing up, then she’ll have a relapse of bad behavior almost textbook, as if to test if ill stand firm without holding resentment. Then it gets better and worse, better and worse, the whole while improving slightly on her predicted MLC course. I have settled in and made peace with the fact that I am in this for the long haul - both for my children and for the girl I love. She’s just taking her damn time getting there.

My outlook is positive. The big change is that recently I got sick (flu), while working a heavy deadline, AND she slept in and made me watch the kids while I was laid up on the couch. Just no quarter, no mercy. And something snapped inside - I went from outwardly kind and forgiving, to just done. What HeartsBlessing called “turning your emotional back on your spouse.” No reaction, no engagement, just done with their antics.

In the last few weeks since I’ve been “done,” she’s come around HARD. Bringing me food, asking me to come join her with the kids, visiting me in my home office, making plans for the holidays and next holidays, cooking and being bubbly and fun. And always with the attitude of, “are you ok? Are we ok? Look at me, talk with me!” HUGE difference from prior, which was her giving nothing to me or anyone, and being distant and cold.

So all in all I’d say this is working beautifully, it feels perfectly in line with what HeartsBlessing (and so many others) have laid out as “when you turn your back on them, they get scared and shape up.”

Which brings me to my question. Yesterday she started to panic and sent me an urgent text. Basically, “my gut tells me somethings going on. You basically act like I don’t exist. Are you talking to a lawyer? Have you seen other women (which I said was ok)? Are there big changes ahead? My mind is spinning.”

So I believe I’ve hit the desired stride - she’s wondering what up to, she’s worried she might lose me. She’s panicking, hopefully enough to clear her head and remember that we have a good family with lots of love worth fighting for. To her question, no I’m not planning anything, nor am I talking to a lawyer, nor am I seeing other women. I’m just overworked, underthanked, and have been DBing for a long time.

Help me, wise DBers - how do I respond? My gut tells me I’m on the right track and starting to make her wonder, but if I push too hard down that road too fast, she is likely to make rash decisions. Do I say “nothings going on, I’m just overworked”? That one is the truth. Or maybe “you have nothing to worry about, I’m just tired”?

Im in new territory here. I don’t know how to string along and be mysterious without making her panic and capsize the boat, which she is liable to do. I think I need to assuage just enough of her fears that she doesn’t do something crazy, but not enough that she goes back to being in comfortable replay.

[kml]

“No, I’m not planning anything and I haven’t been talking to a lawyer”

Then you could either say nothing else, or add “Im waiting to see if your recent changes are real” or stick with “Im just feeling overworked and under appreciated”.

Also - have you ever inquired as to whether your wife is feeling depressed? Excessive sleeping and decreased libido could be signs of clinical depression. Will she see a doctor?

And as for the spending - if you’re the primary breadwinner, you may need to control the finances if she has a serious spending problem (sometimes also part of depression).

[Hoch]

Thank you for your reply kml!

I like that. It’s honest, which I love. It also doesn’t give her much to bite on.

Yes, I know she’s very depressed, but is only seeing a counselor inconsistently and will cancel appointments at the drop of a hat. She’s been chain drinking/smoking, but has absolutely dug her heels in and refuses all help, inquiries, or assistance. The ONLY thing which is apparently helping is me taking an outwardly “flat” attitude to everything, even when I care deeply. The less I engage, the more she starts sniffing around the edges of better eating, less drinking, better sleep, more positivity.

And about the finances, I have recently taken control. Shes had small relapses, and whether or not these continue will determine if I get more drastic (cancelling cards, switching accounts, allowing only cash for groceries, etc.)

[Hoch]

To update, this is what I did.

“Hey, I’m not planning anything, and I’m not talking to anyone. I’m just exhausted.”

The immediate reply was a frustrated, “well why didn’t you just tell me that?” Which is a non-reply so I ignored it.

I don’t want to fall back into play-by-play and reporting unnecessary conversation here. I’m solution-oriented, and my intuition still tells me that this is on a good track. I can also feel that I have to be careful with the “flat” affect - it can prod the situation forward, but it can also cause problems if I give the wrong impression, say of being cold and upset rather than indifferent,

My goal today is to be positive, enjoy my holiday, and focus on what I do want - a reconciled, happy family.

[BL42]

Hoch,

Welcome back. Sorry you're going through this...

Help me, wise DBers - how do I respond? My gut tells me I’m on the right track and starting to make her wonder, but if I push too hard down that road too fast, she is likely to make rash decisions. Do I say “nothings going on, I’m just overworked”? That one is the truth. Or maybe “you have nothing to worry about, I’m just tired”?

I joined around the same time as you so I'm no expert, but I'd suggest playing it coy. Sounds like you're eager to to deny because your head wants her to know you're not doing anything she doesn't want you to do...out of fear she'll react the wrong way. Wouldn't it be better to get a twinkle in your eye and say "I'm just enjoying my life..." or "I have a lot to think about..." or something to that effect, and then walk away? I wouldn't lie and say you're dating/sleeping with someone, but also wouldn't be quick to ease her fears either.

And as for the spending - if you’re the primary breadwinner, you may need to control the finances if she has a serious spending problem (sometimes also part of depression).

And about the finances, I have recently taken control. Shes had small relapses, and whether or not these continue will determine if I get more drastic (cancelling cards, switching accounts, allowing only cash for groceries, etc.)

What do you mean specifically by "recently taken control" of the finances? You can probably direct all your income into a separate account, but not sure there's much you can do about her spending...if you cancel the cards she can always apply for another one, no? And being married you might be liable for her cards. You may want to consult with a L on this one, not to file for D but just to know your rights and protect yourself financially.

[DnJ]

Hello Hoch

And something snapped inside - I went from outwardly kind and forgiving, to just done. … No reaction, no engagement, just done with their antics.

Im in new territory here. I don’t know how to string along and be mysterious without making her panic and capsize the boat, which she is liable to do. I think I need to assuage just enough of her fears that she doesn’t do something crazy, but not enough that she goes back to being in comfortable replay.

You gave a good response.

I liked the straightforwardness of it and that it is true. Never lie. A MLCer has a mind like Swiss cheese for most things but a steel trap of a memory for things you do wrong or the lies you say.

Which bring me to “how to string along…”. That doesn’t work for the long haul. She needs to go through her crisis. The entire thing. Or she will enter it again and it will be much worse the next time around.

Do not manipulate her path. We cannot know all ends and manipulating places us in a place of being responsible for her outcome - good or bad. Not a place you want to be in.

What you do want to do is like you did. “Something just snapped”. You become done with it.

You did not become mean or vindictive, just done. Just indifferent. Still kind. Still cared. Still standing. Standing more for you and less for her. And by the way, that’s a pretty good thing.

Her change of behaviour and perking up is because of your authenticity. You weren’t acting. You were just done.

To be clear, that isn’t done like moving on. It’s done like moving forward and she can catch up when/if she is ready to. You got a great life to live. She’s invited along, and welcome; but it’s up to her as to what she is actually going to do or when she chooses to join you. You keep doing you. Make those changes permanent.

In that way, it’s not stringing her along. And more importantly, it’s not stringing you along. You become you. A better version of you. And that is attractive and desirable and as you said something she can sense loosing.

Any idea why something just snapped? What your internal shift was? What triggered it?

To me, I’d say the loss of fear.

Fear is an insidious binding prison. Its tentacles snare us and hold us. Casting off those chains and letting go of one’s fear takes rational effort. An internal shift and a new way of thinking and believing. Which then influences a new way of feeling. A more fearless way. And that is a mighty dose of freedom.

We are all, both prisoner and jailer in our self made dungeons. The keys are within us. Once the doors are unlocked our light shines and the darkness gets pushed back.

I’m here now because I need advice. Upfront I’d like to ask for no 2x4s at the moment, just kind advice. I’m a little shaky and not ready for them yet.

I bet you weren’t feeling shaky when you were just done. Yes?

When we let go, we gain so much more.

It’s a pretty counterintuitive path. One which gains clarity as you travel.

Have a great day.

D

[Hoch]

DnJ -

I can’t say enough how sweet your response was. I probably read it 5 times yesterday, it brought me great comfort.

Largely what I appreciate is the emphasis on honesty, and the dangerousness of trying to keep up the guise of “leading someone one.” I’m a very honest person - right or wrong - and I can’t maintain a lie to save myself. Honest but distant, I think is my new stance.

Thank you again, and that goes for everyone.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Hoch

You are most welcome.

Honest but distant, I think is my new stance.

That’s a good stance. Why “but”?

Honest. Distance. These two ideas are not contradictory. Honest and distance works just fine.

I’m glad you appreciate the caution of trying to manipulate someone’s path.

Leading. Being a lighthouse. Is being a role model and shining an influencing example.

I see you moved from newcomers to MLC. Your last posts were leading nicely to detachment. And yes, a bit of a diagnosis towards MLC.

I’ve found MLC, or more accurately the belief or non-belief thereof, can be quite a heated discussion. For what it’s worth, I absolutely believe in MLC. And mid life transition. And many other emotional stresses and pressures that can lead to breakdowns and life altering decisions.

I’ve read your situation and I do believe your W is exhibiting traits and behaviours congruent with MLC. Confusion, depression, unrealized past trauma(s) - car accident at 17 resulting in the other driver’s death, ill relative (father if I recall correctly), and so on. She is exhibiting severe behavioural change and demonstrates much emotional decision making.

Crisis individuals are driven by their emotions. Completely consumed, beyond reason and rational thought. Almost everything they do is based upon their feelings. How they feel is why they do what they do. It is an irrational path. One that cannot be steered by rational discourse.

W needs to walk her path. Finish her entire crisis. And you were not invited. There is nothing you can do to make her journey quicker. However, there is plenty you can do to prolong it.

W will not accept any diagnosis of MLC or any other view that places her at fault or blame. Realize she cannot handle it. She is completely driven by pain and torment. She cannot handle being wrong or pressure. So she blames anyone who gets in her path. She needs to run and will mow down anyone who stands in her way.

Realize W’s emotions are cranked to eleven. She cannot handle her own emotions never mind your’s. In time, she might realize that she is still sad, upset, and angry AND Hoch hasn’t been involved. So, perhaps Hoch ain’t the cause. And then she might look inward towards the actual problem.

In the meantime, the LBS learns to back off, let’s go, and lives their life.

That is the basic path my friend.

I’m here now because I need advice.

Everything I will say to you will be the best I can be. And it will always be for you.

A great many things on one’s path are at first counterintuitive. Things will feel wrong and incorrect. And will until one realizes it is not. Have faith. Keep moving forward. And be patient.

Hoch, you have my attention. How can I help?

Our main issue is that she claims to be asexual, and “will never have sex again,” a card she plays whenever she’s cornered (about anything, esp financial irresponsibility. Ie, “me: you can’t spend like this anymore.” “Her: Well, I’m never having sex with you again, so this marriage can’t last!” Non-sequitur, distraction tactic. I don’t believe it’s real, plus I’ve found she’s been watching racy adult videos in her private time.

I understand you do not believe it’s real. However, W does “feel” it’s real!

Validation is needed.

Making something valid does not mean you agree or condone it. It just makes it valid. You are agreeing that their viewpoint is valid and real. Which it is. Everyone’s viewpoint is real for them.

I’ve a few items from reading your thread I’d like to bring up / discuss.

I’m definitely NOT ok being in a marriage with no intimacy. It breaks my heart. But with two small kids, a pandemic, and no financial savings, I honestly don’t know what other solution would be open to me.

Anything I can think of that would involve me pursuing a life with intimacy right now, seems like it would involve me not being in this house anymore and not putting my kids down to bed. Not having them come to me in the middle of the night when they’re scared. Which is the ONLY intimacy I have in my life right now. I feel like I’m sandwiched by two impossible situations.

I’m not ok with her disrespecting me, and I’m standing up for myself a day at a time. Right now she is being very cold because of it. I’ve even noticed lately, I had stopped wearing my wedding ring because I was so full of resentment. I reconsidered, decided if I was married I’d wear the ring regardless, and put it back on a few days ago. In reaction, she has taken hers off.

I just don’t know what I’m doing anymore.

“I feel like I’m sandwiched by two impossible situations.”

Feelings are fleeting. Do not make life altering decisions based upon them. (May want to read my threads if any of this resonates with you.)

Very few things are truly impossible.

Utilize clear language. Your mind is always listening. When you say something is impossible or you cannot do something, your mind will make it so. We craft our own realities.

“…I honestly don’t know what other solution would be open to me.”

You need not find a solution. Her path is (for the moment) irrational. Solutions come from rational thought. Resolutions bridge irrational and rational.

For the time being your resolution to this conundrum is to let her be, and be in a marriage with little to no intimacy.

You control only three things in this world. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions. Choose to be ok with this temporary lack of intimacy and you will be.

Resentment comes from unmet expectations. Keep your expectations at zero.

Hope is a desire for a positive outcome. Expectation is hope with a timeframe or deadline. And placing a deadline upon hope does just that - makes it dead.

Hope is timeless. It straddles desire and pragmatic, fantasy and reality. It is an incredible source of strength and can be an incredible trap when one does not realize the truth of hope.

Hoping and looking towards the future is really good. As long as one is still living the present. In fact, it makes the present and our decisions more meaningful.

By the way, hope, standing, and such - all for you. Stand for you. Hope for you. We all start out standing for our spouse and marriage. It’s the default. We are hurt and really cannot do otherwise. Eventually we heal enough to stand down. That is when standing really starts. It helps and is necessary to have a good handle on expectations and hope be then.

She is extremely unhappy. She hates me, and hates me specifically for our sex life. But like her mom before her, she won’t do anything to address her problems, except push everyone away and bury the problems.

It breaks my heart. All I can do is GAL, love my sons, and love her. I do love her unconditionally, for the first time. I don’t truly believe she is asexual, I think it’s a shield against intimacy and pain.

I love this beautiful, hurting girl.

Yes your W is hurting. Realize - hurt people, hurt people.

Her hatred is not the opposite of love. Hate is passionate. Indifference is the opposite of love.

W is projecting her pain, guilt, torment, and such upon you. How she feels has little to nothing to do with you. Seriously. It is from hidden long ago buried trauma(s) which she doesn’t even realize.

Things that are buried alive, always come back to haunt. She is being haunted by her past. One which she doesn’t even know or can at the moment acknowledge. A past pain so traumatic, from a time when she was so young, she could not face it. Could not accept it. So it was denied and buried. A perfectly normal response for one so emotionally immature.

Years later, a trigger occurs, which digs up these buried demons. And they will not be denied any longer! She still cannot face nor accept those demons, and she lashes out to those around her. For in her broken mind, you, the one who once brought such joy, must be the cause.

Her depression and behaviour is not about your sex life. It has nothing to do with it.

She is behaving like she witnessed and learnt growing up. She is behaving and ignoring and burying her problems and emotions, just like her Mom did. And failing at it.

MLCers were traumatized when emotionally immature and usually by someone in a position of authority. They become emotional stunted, needing to grow up from then. It’s just that they are doing it much later in life.

Absolutely she is unhappy. Thing is - You didn’t break her, you can’t fix her. Take that to heart Hoch. Believe it!

Unconditional love.

I have a different view from the wise posters who offered their views.

Unconditional love can exist between adults in a relationship. I do not subscribe that there are things one can do to make someone not love them. That would also imply there are things one can do to make one love them. An equally impossible thing. And given my views on impossible, I do not say that lightly.

There are things that one can do that would make one hate them. Absolutely! However, one can hate and love at the same time. Hate and love are both deep passionate expressions. And are not mutually exclusive.

Love is a choice. An action. A desire. It is an emotion. It is a thought. It is a belief. And it is beyond all that. Love is born and exists within our irrational realm. And it is born and exists within our rational self. Love permeates and fulfils. And it can become unconditional.

In fact, love is unconditional. If one loves conditionally, well that is their choice. A choice that limits love.

Love doesn’t turn on and off like a tap. Yes, one’s loving feelings rise and fall, like all emotions do. Yet, the respect, understanding, empathy, from love remain. Uncondionally remains.

The belief and direction of life and love remains regardless of others actions or words. Hurt, hate, and such are only temporary contrasted against love. Hate burns hot and eventual will burn out. Love is more an ember, flaring and calming as it cycles, yet it remains unquenchable.

This is not some starry-eyed infatuation type love. This is an enlightened type thing. A paradigm of the soul. Unconditional love leads to forgiveness.

That type of love only comes from within one’s self. There is nothing anyone else can do to create such a thing. Unconditional love towards others is an expression of one’s love of self. One’s respect of self. That, is extremely deep and quite unshakable.

I’ve found it’s quite rare. As is forgiveness. Society it seems, people it seems, struggle with it.

Love the sinner, forgive the sin.

That is completely for you. It sets one free.

Anyhow, just a few thoughts, beliefs, and convictions I figured I’d share.

Have a great day.

D

[Hoch]

Wow. All I can say again is… wow.

Thank you so much for those kind words. Your stance is very much the same as mine, as regards love- unconditional or other - and forgiveness. It’s funny, I feel like I’m really understanding it for the first time. Forgiveness of others, forgiveness of self, love of self and all, but still asking people to be accountable. Not out of justice or revenge, but out of that same love of self and others - when you have respect for the other person and yourself, you mustard that they be accountable for their actions. It’s the only way to respect both parties.

I’ve been reading lots and lots of HeartsBlessing - both her posts here, and her posts on her website. I keep coming back again and again to “turning your back on your MLC spouse.” I feel like that is what I’ve done.

I’m not sure if that was right. And that’s where I could use advice right now.

These last months, W has been turning around and become more talkative, more willing to look within, much friendlier. Doing nice things, making fun meals, prepping for the holidays. Still running behavior however, still putting in half effort with the kids and snapping at them. Still testing limits with wasting money or waking up late when my work day starts.

Until recently, I’d been holding myself in that perfect forgiveness state. Friendly and charming, all of the good DB lighthouse stuff. Quick to forgive, and staying positive.

However, her sleeping later and later and letting me take ALL of the kid stress and ALL of the work stress was the price for all that kind behavior from her. Getting sick and still getting no mercy was when it “snapped” (as mentioned before), and since then I’ve given… nothing. Flat. Not talkative, to her anyway. I think it was an emotional scab that popped up to protect me.

The thing is, it hasn’t gone away in the last month. Initially, there was a HUGE uptick in kind (almost… fawning?) behavior from her, but that hit a head at thanksgiving when she asked/demanded “why are you acting like I don’t exist? Are you seeing a lawyer?”

Since then, she’s been downright nasty. Shutting me down, quick negative stabs in conversation, stomping mad and fuming at all times.

My gut intuition is this: she is afraid she’s losing me - which is half right, her selfishness and disrespect finally overloaded my “charm in the face of all odds” stance. And since she’s afraid of that, she’s raising hell to try to drag our dance back to the middle ground where she could keep me comfortably at arms length. Deep down, I feel like this is working, and it’s also perfectly in keeping with what HeartsBlessing said would happen (when you turn your back, they will do anything in their power to get you to re engage, often becoming mean and lashing out).

But I guess where I’m torn is… is this the right move, or am I letting resentment creep in and ruining all my hard work? After all, before I shut down she was being quite nice, of distant. Now she seems like she’s liable to file or move out any minute. So much of DBing feels like being strong and keeping your hand in the fire, that I’m not sure if I should go back to re-engaging and being charming and letting her come to me but by bit. The only thing which stopped me from doing that was the rebellion - endangering my job and our finances, that’s what finally broke me.

I’m not even sure what I’m saying anymore. I’m tired. Good spirits, but tired.

In essence, me becoming distant worked great for a few weeks - until it exploded, and now W is acting openly hostile. Do I abandon this track - “abort, abort!” - and return to an earlier approach, or ride it out as a necessary change of the status quo? DBing feels a little like holding a pose for years, such that when it comes time to pivot even slightly it can feel like a very costly mistake.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Hoch

I am familiar with the site you are referencing. I’ve read it in its entry a few times, although that’s years ago now. A quick caution: I believe we are not to directly state other websites and such that offer similar information and/or help as divorcebusting does. That’s agreed upon in the user agreement, if I recall.

Almost everyone knows of this other site, and usually stating just that “another website” is really all the information one needs to impart. Credibility of whatever site you are reading comes from its contents not it’s name. There are many sites out on the net. Plenty have quite a different slant, almost mean, and some outright mean. Personally, I only post and read here now.

I’m really understanding it for the first time. Forgiveness of others, forgiveness of self, love of self and all, but still asking people to be accountable. Not out of justice or revenge, but out of that same love of self and others - when you have respect for the other person and yourself, you mustard that they be accountable for their actions. It’s the only way to respect both parties.

Excellent.

Interestingly, people usually do not like accountability when it is directed at them. Oh, they’ll hold others accountable all day long, but get mad and upset when it’s turned to them. Their idea of accountable is more blaming than from deeply held values.

The being a beacon, a lighthouse, holding yourself accountable and loving and forgiving. And shinning that outward. As you now know and feel, one cannot really do that when their own internal light is dim.

Turning your back, becoming indifferent, are normal steps along the path. This is a temporary state and reprieve from one’s spouse and their antics. Make the most of it!

There is a void created with such an indifference. Other feelings will loom larger than they really are contrasted against this void. This limbo is normal. You are not dragged around nor triggered by words or actions of your W; a great time to dig deep and discover your beliefs. Strengthen those that serve. Create one that you aspire to. And discard or alter one’s that are less than you would like or do not serve. And you’d be surprise at some of the things we incorrectly hold dear.

I agree your W turned up the charm to attempt to get you back under her thumb. With that no longer working she turned angry. Hoch, respect and accountability. Boundary disrespectful behaviour and keep moving forward.

The only thing which stopped me from doing that was the rebellion - endangering my job and our finances, that’s what finally broke me.

You must protect your finances and job. Her rebellious behaviour is not allowed if it directly threatens this. That is a boundary which sounds like you applied; perhaps unwittingly with becoming indifferent. Of course she isn’t happy with it. She’d being held accountable for her actions.

Boundaries are not punishment. They are actions you will take due to disrespectful behaviour from W. Actions you enact. Actions that are within your control. That loss of power is pretty upsetting to the other person.

In essence, me becoming distant worked great for a few weeks - until it exploded, and now W is acting openly hostile. Do I abandon this track - “abort, abort!” - and return to an earlier approach, or ride it out as a necessary change of the status quo? DBing feels a little like holding a pose for years, such that when it comes time to pivot even slightly it can feel like a very costly mistake.

This is a long view thing. Don’t fret over the short view.

DBing is for you. You save yourself first. If your marriage is saved that is a bonus.

Find yourself and your convictions. Re-organizing them accordingly. And live them!

W is watching. She saw how you become indifferent. She’s testing to see if it’s real. It your change is permanent. Or is it a ploy to win her back.

That’s a question for you as well.

Place your focus and efforts upon yourself. Not in a selfish way or to be vindictive or any such, just from a respectful, accountable, stance.

She is acting more like a roommate than a wife, treat her as such. Kindly. Friendly roommate. She can only change herself, and until she decides to…well you can only do what you can do.

Live and lead a good life. It encourages and influences. Her path is up to her.

That’s DB. You find the honourable and authentic path forward and walk it. Live and love life. She will catch up or she won’t. Be patient you got plenty of time, use it well.

D

[Hoch]

Again, thank you.

I’d like to ask some advice on a particular issue - W has been really pushing boundaries lately. As I mentioned, previously she had been testing my limits on spending and sleeping in, which was jeopardizing my job.

At least now, the only outward rebellion is sleeping late (very late, like 5-7 hrs) on weekends, and simply refusing to get up. Which leaves me watching the kids full time after a long week of working. Again, I watch the kids solo from 6-10 every weekday, and now from 6-1 on weekends.

I have repeatedly stated that this is unfair and unkind. It is also disrespectful. However, I don’t know how to handle this sort of direct - indirect? - disrespect. I can’t MAKE her get up. But it is a significant issue. Thoughts?

I want to proceed with kindness and respect, but mostly kindness for myself and respect of my own time.

[kml]

Is she at t try dying up late at night, then sleeping in? Of us she sleeping an excessive number of total hours? Excessive sleeping can be a sign of serious depression. Has she seen a physician?

[Hoch]

Thanks for responding.

She refuses to see a doctor about her sleep habits or general unhappiness / discomfort.

I believe the sleeping is from being up late / inability to fall asleep due to racing thoughts. Which would be totally understandable. The problem is that it puts me in constant childcare mode and has been going on for quite a long time. The fact that she is getting up on time during the week now tells me she can control it, she just chooses not to no matter how much of the brunt I bear.

[DnJ]

Hello Hoch

It sounds like depression. A pretty common thing for one in emotional turmoil. Confusion and depression are ever present within them.

If she is indeed struggling with her inner demons a lack of sleep is very likely. Although the weekend does sound more rebellious based; 5-7 hours sleeping in is quite a bit. Is she actually sleeping or more laying there?

have repeatedly stated that this is unfair and unkind. It is also disrespectful. However, I don’t know how to handle this sort of direct - indirect? - disrespect. I can’t MAKE her get up. But it is a significant issue. Thoughts?

I want to proceed with kindness and respect, but mostly kindness for myself and respect of my own time.

You might as well cease repeating how unfair it all is. First, she’s heard it several times and it is having no affect. Second, if she is rebelling, then she is winning. And you keep letting her know it. And third, you are increasing its significance to her and to yourself.

Flip it 180 degrees. No telling her anymore. Besides actions speak much louder than words.

It is true, you cannot make her get up. You can only control you.

You have loving sons ages 3 and 6. The three of you are all to yourselves. Have some fun. And have some breaks. I know they are active boys. Let them rip around for a bit. Then have a more sit down activity like colouring or reading or such. Where you can get a bit of a break.

About the only boundary you can have is to just do your thing. Don’t wait on W. Focus on you and the boys and live your lives. Make plans and go out. Let her know, and invite her to join you all, the day before. The day of, if she’s sleeping in, oh well, her loss.

Be authentic and respect yourself. Enjoy your sons in their early years, for they grow up far too fast.

I would suspect laying around for hours will run its course. And sooner if not reinforced. Let her be. The less focus she gets, the more likely she will emerge on weekends like she does on weekdays.

This falls into the idea of positive reinforcement for positive behaviours and just ignoring negative ones. Like dog training. Negative reinforcement does not modify behaviour over the long term; certainly not in a positive direction.

D

[Gerda]

I am sorry I don't know your whole sitch but just saw this post. My advice is to embrace your new identity. You are a single dad. Be proud of it. Be the sole provider of love and care. Love your boys and enjoy every second. It goes fast. If you feel like it's unfair, read stories about people in Afghanistan or Syria or Ethiopia or any refugee camp and focus on how lucky you are. Forget about what your W does -- sleeping in or not, working or not, whatever. Just be a single father now and enjoy every moment and focus on making sure your boys never think you think it's unfair.

Need a break? Don't ask your W. Get a sitter. Can't afford it? Hire a 13-year old from the neighborhood to hang out with them while you do stuff around the house so you can have a break. Or find another single dad and take turns taking all the kids. Need more of a break? Drop them off with grandma or a friend.

You are a single dad now. Embrace it. That's your GAL.

If your W shows up sometimes, take a break then. If she doesn't, don't say anything. But maybe start keeping a record of these things in case you need it for court.

Is she sleeping in when you have to go to work? Put your kids in daycare in the mornings and drop them off on time. Don't rely on her. Don't want to put them in daycare? I know. It's wrong. They should have a loving mom. But they don't right now. And you can't afford to lose your job.

She isn't the woman she was. She's someone else right now. Stop expecting anything from her and stop noticing what she does.

If you want to see a possible trajectory of how this will go, you could read my thread. It's also possible that she will come out of it and come back -- and I truly believe in standing for your marriage. But while your W is this way, you can only stand for the marriage by embracing single fatherhood and being amazing at it. Stand for your family. Stand for your boys. Be the man you want them to be one day. Don't take this precious time with them for granted.

[Hoch]

So the last few days my W has surprised me. She actually attempted to get up early to help me. Has been much more kind and bubbly and is even talking of the kind of Christmas presents she wants to get me (or would if we had the money - which reflects her awareness of our finances as well).

But tonight, out of nowhere after dinner, she sort of blurted out “so I’ve been all over the place lately. I’ve been dipping into and out of deep depression. That exchange (her wondering if I’m seeing a lawyer) left me not knowing what our future holds. It left me sad and scared and lost. I don’t k ow what’s going on between us other than that it’s awkward and sad.”

That caught me offguard. I said “well first things, it makes me very sad to hear you’re so depressed and upset. And as to what ‘this’ is, what do you want it to be?”

So then she hardened and said “well I know I’m never going to be able to give you what you want in a marriage (sex) because that’s not who I am. And I know you need that. So I assume that leaves us eventually splitting up.”

I didn’t know where to take it, so I just validated back. “So I understand that that’s a hard line for you, and since it is you assume our family eventually has to dissolve. Is that right?”

And she responded, “do you see any other way?” And went out for a bit.

So yeah… I’m not sure what’s going on. She’s showing a lot of awareness. But still the hardline stance - and I still strongly believe (but not completely) that she is not asexual.

Advise me, oh wise ones.

[DnJ]

Hello Hoch

It’s hard to validate at first, and when when the conversation comes at you surprisingly it is even harder.

“so I’ve been all over the place lately. I’ve been dipping into and out of deep depression. That exchange (her wondering if I’m seeing a lawyer) left me not knowing what our future holds. It left me sad and scared and lost. I don’t know what’s going on between us other than that it’s awkward and sad.”

That caught me offguard. I said “well first things, it makes me very sad to hear you’re so depressed and upset. And as to what ‘this’ is, what do you want it to be?”

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I’m sorry you feel sad and scared.

Something along those lines validates pretty well. “It makes me very sad to hear…” turns this into how you are feeling. Her emotions are cranked to eleven. She cannot handle her own feelings, never mind your’s. Validate her feelings. The ones she is sharing with you.

“What’s going in between us”. Steer clear. Asking what she wants it to be is not going to go well. She is emotional and irrational.

”well I know I’m never going to be able to give you what you want in a marriage (sex) because that’s not who I am. And I know you need that. So I assume that leaves us eventually splitting up.”

This is where relationship talks, even the ones she starts, will end up. She is justifying her emotions. She needs time to feel differently. Don’t take the bait.

I didn’t know where to take it, so I just validated back. “So I understand that that’s a hard line for you, and since it is you assume our family eventually has to dissolve. Is that right?”

And she responded, “do you see any other way?” And went out for a bit.

You are reenforcing her view of it being a hard line, and leading to an inevitable separation.

I get that you didn’t know where to take it. Thing is, you’re not taking the conversation anywhere; she’s leading it. The best you can do is show you heard her feelings and steer clear of blame and such. You cannot reason nor rationalize this with her.

Your response left no room for anything other than her “do you see any other way?”.

“Is that right?”, is going to get you a yes response. She ain’t going to fight against it. Remember she is confused and looking for reasons and justifications to leave. Be them real or not, will make little difference to her. No need to provide her more ammo.

Many times, saying less will end up saying more. She will be more apt to spill the beans when you are just listening. Not solving or advising. She’s not a LBS looking for information and guidance. She’s a hurt gal, who doesn’t actually know what she wants.

So yeah… I’m not sure what’s going on. She’s showing a lot of awareness. But still the hardline stance - and I still strongly believe (but not completely) that she is not asexual.

She is confused and all over the place. She said as much. Whether she is asexual or not, for the moment she feels she is - so she is. Let her believe what she wants. She’s going to anyhow.

You focus on your life. On your inner self. Be better not bitter. Become the best version of Hoch. W will notice. She might even become interested again.

Do remember, her path, her journey, is about her. Keep yourself clear of it. Hopefully, W will realize that Hoch hasn’t actually been doing anything and yet she is still sad. Then maybe she will consider that Hoch is not the cause after all. And she would look inward towards herself for why she is sad.

Stay strong Hoch. You are doing a fine.

D

[Hoch]

This is so helpful. I’m very grateful that I have this place to come to for advice and to share. Thank you.

So… what do I do when she comes at me straight with what is basically, “where do you see this going, now that I’ve drawn a line in the sand?” Her approach is saying, this makes me uncomfortable not knowing. Tell me what you’re planning.

How do I deflect that, while still validating? I don’t lie well, never have. So if she says “I feel awful tell me where our marriage is going,” and I respond with “I’m sorry that you feel awful,” I’ve completely ignored her question and she will press it. Thoughts? Eventually she turns angry and finds an answer, even if “you’re being evasive so I guess we can clearly see what your answer is.”

[DnJ]

Good Morning Hoch

Yes, W’s behaviour is a rather common way these folks attempt to regain and retain control of the situation. See how she is making you the bad guy? Because…why… you don’t answer? What a confused mind she has - yes? See her emotions at play?

So… what do I do when she comes at me straight with what is basically, “where do you see this going, now that I’ve drawn a line in the sand?” Her approach is saying, this makes me uncomfortable not knowing. Tell me what you’re planning.

Whatever you do, do not tell her your plans. If you see a L, keep that to yourself. Do not share your playbook. Everything you say, will be used against you.

Respond: I can see how this is making you uncomfortable. I’m not planning anything. It’s your line in the sand.

How do I deflect that, while still validating? I don’t lie well, never have. So if she says “I feel awful tell me where our marriage is going,” and I respond with “I’m sorry that you feel awful,” I’ve completely ignored her question and she will press it. Thoughts? Eventually she turns angry and finds an answer, even if “you’re being evasive so I guess we can clearly see what your answer is.”

Good for you for not lying. Do not lie. A MLCer’s mind is like Swiss cheese when it comes to most things, but a lie or some mean thing you said or did months and months ago, they will dredge that up and utilize it to its fullest

See how her conclusion is herself trying to create justification for how she feels. And how she made it up, with little to no actual data.

How to deflect. First a question for you, from me (well actual from you just unrealized before this moment): Where do you see your marriage going?

Not where you’re wanting it to go. Where it is going.

I suspect your answer is “I don’t know”. A perfect answer. The future is unknown. I don’t know, doesn’t limit the possibilities and is the truth.

W: I feel awful tell me where our marriage is going.

H: I’m sorry your feeling so bad. I honestly don’t know where this is headed.

She will or will not accept that answer. And will or will not get angry. Her response will depend upon how she is feeling at that moment.

She may come at you with - you’re being evasive. Shrug it off. Irrational reasoning cannot be reasoned with. The best one can do is defuse the situation. Agree with her, while not accepting unwarranted blame.

W: Well, you’re being evasive so I guess we can clearly see what your answer is.

H: I’m sorry you see it that way. I’m not purposefully being evasive, I just really do not know where this is headed.

Then go about your day.

The path of your marriage takes two. You can only control one - yourself. Keep your side of the street clean. Let her be. And see if she comes around.

She has moments of clarity and does question her actions/beliefs. Her angry projections and inquisition is a result of that. She’s looking for Hoch to blow up so she can justify her view.

Breathe. Dig deep. And remain calm.

You got this.

D