Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: LeeChild My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/25/21 08:00 PM
I know w had seemed unhappy for quite a while, working from home at the kitchen table every day due to coronavirus. We have a small, 1250 square foot house in the city.

Also she's been drinking wine every night for quite a while-- years actually and it has only escalated in the last year. At least a bottle per night and more on the weekends. She also smokes pot every day and since she's worked from home, that use has escalated due to access. She's 5'11 and weighs 135 pounds.


We don't fight much at all, there is no physical or emotional abuse in the relationship, and so the typical, escalating reasons for a divorce weren't there. W left for Phoenix to stay in an AirBnB to think and work remotely and came back even more resolute about divorce. She's since left several times for days at a time.

The reasons she gave for wanting a divorce were vague: she "loves me but is not in love with me." She "doesn't feel about me the way she should." "I don't love you like a wife should love a husband".

When I finally got out of her specific reasons, they seemed petty. The ever present "I leave my bathroom too messy" and I never showed enough interest in her hiking hobby and "you are on your phone and online too much". All valid but things to work on, not reasons for divorce. She has refused counseling.

She told her friend that she has always done what was expected of her, never things just for her. This is a person who has never denied herself anything. If she wants to break a plan she does it. She's flakey. Maybe she felt internal pressure to become a CPA & thought it was a conservative choice but her family are simple country people and never pressured her. We got married because it made no sense not to! It happened automatically, was barely discussed. It was like "so this is definitely happening!"

Neither of us expected to eventually be married. We were in our late 30s when we tied the knot. To illustrate her "I do what I want" attitude -- once we drank too much wine on Christmas eve and she wanted to skip family Christmas the next day! We are both wild about Christmas and I just said "Are you crazy? No way we are going to do this!". She was angry about having to go and showed her butt the whole time and dank too much wine. This was a mostly out of character move, something she'd do maybe twice a year so I would always excuse stuff like that. It happened but not regularly.

A week later, after another out of town excursion, she had dinner with my best friend's wife, who is her best friend (our lives are quite intertwined. They met due to us. My brother married her other best friend via us). She came home steaming, and really laid into saying she "just married me because it seemed like the thing to do."

She brought up some old dating partner & then said that when I am gone, she will never even think of me, but she will day dream about him. This person is a dating partner who according to her "didn't give a crap about me". An unrequited love situation from almost 12 years ago. They dated about 11 months.

She also later claimed that she was never really, highly attracted to me.

These are accusations with mountains of evidence against them. For one, she was gung ho about marriage. For another, we were the most publicly physical couple almost anyone had seen. Many commented on it and were annoyed by it! She seems to have rewritten the history of the entire relationship now, colored by current "feelings" she's interpreted.

She later days that while sex with me was good in the beginning, it wasn't "to a level I had experienced before".

We have a jar full of wine corks that say things like "best sex day ever". She told me on more than one occasion that I was the best she ever had, spontaneously and on her own accord. I would never ask such things but also a man never forgets having such things said to him either.

She is insistent on divorce. I am pretty devastated! I love my wife, this is quite a shock and I don't even think I believe in divorce!


W has untreated and undiagnosed depression she's been carrying around ever since I've known her. Her mother died when she was 23. She remained away and distant through it to avoid seeing her mother go through it, similar to how she is now "running" here and there to keep from having to face me. This has been going on months and we have had a grand total of 3 conversations about this divorce. She is now moving forward with everything rapid fire like she is trying to break some sort of record.

W is extremely driven and successful as a CPA. I have always been very proud of her. It is insane the amount of bonuses they throw at her -- we've paid off our house.


Yet she still thinks of herself as a failure. She doesn't think she is smart. She thinks I'm the smart one-- I'm a college dropout! This is a person who made all "A's" save for two B's" in ALL of high school and college.



She had a somewhat bad upbringing in a small town. Parents were okay, One of the uncles molested her sister. Her grandfather impregnated his own daughter and a "slow" child was the result of that. She and both of her sisters excelled and got out of that situation. One is a teacher, the other also a CPA. Her father, since mellowed and quite a nice guy now, apparently made her think she was stupid growing up.


She thinks she is going to move to Denver, quit her job after her next bonus and start a new, exciting life in 6 months. She will cut her wine consumption down to a couple of glasses a night for a month, pat herself on the back, read a few self help platitudes, and tell herself that she is working on herself. I know her. She will repeat these same cycles elsewhere with others.


I made excuses for the wine due to her high functionality.

I stopped drinking during the week with her at least 2 years ago. My use was 2-5 beers a night and I was just getting too fat and knew it was bad for me and that I had to stop. I stopped during the week and it carried over to just drinking much less overall even when I do drink. I turned 40 and was just ready to be done with that and to be a good example for her, but I think she took it as me not engaging in one of her hobbies with her!


I get the idea now, knowing her for a while that she is energized by novelty. The new part of our relationship worked for her, the engagement-- also new and exciting. Then the marriage, the first two years were wonderful other than her over drinking. These last two-- my father dies, I get hung up on security and paying things off. She says two years ago is when she first started having these feelings about me. She told me this after I blamed things on Coronavirus.


I feel like she uses novelty like a drug. I joke that she thinks every night should be like a concert. She doesn't know how to cope through boredom.

She can be extremely selfish and is skilled at justifying it. I know depression causes deep reflection and rumination. I'm not sure if it is the cause or the result of her depression.

I suspect MLC because, well in the preceding months she said several times, flippantly "I think I am having MLC" and "Is this all there is?".
Posted By: Cadet Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 01:09 AM
Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 05:25 AM
Awww….. Lee. I’m sorry you find yourself here. Take it from an old hand - a couple of things are very apparent.

First of all - your wife is an alcoholic. Call it what it is. Alanon meetings would probably be good for you.

Second - all these trips to “think and work remotely ” - I hate to tell you this, but this is classic affair behavior. She’s rewriting history, inventing reasons to justify her affair, and getting off on the novelty of whoever it is. (I know, I know, I didn’t believe my ex was having an affair when someone here first pointed it out to me - boy was I wrong. )

Thankfully, there aren’t children involved, and you’ve been paying off debts so a divorce, if it comes to that, won’t be financially devastating.

Some affairs are simple MLC triggered by fear of aging etc. But there’s a lot more going on with your wife -alcoholism, selfishness. From your description, it sounds like, even IF you could get her into treatment for her alcoholism and she gave up the affair - you wouldn’t really be left with a prize.

It took me until after my marriage (of 24 years) ended, to recognize that my ex was a narcissist. MLC played a role in his infidelity, but narcissism was a bigger problem.

Now, if you don’t believe she’s having an affair, I’m pretty sure you’ll find clues if you look - usually phone records or FB are revealing. (Might even be that ExBF) . But before you confront her, protect yourself financially. If you’ve let her handle the finances (cuz she’s a CPA, right?) make sure you have copies of and access to all accounts. Run a credit check.

I know it seems like I’m hitting you with a lot. I’m not saying marriages can’t be saved. I’m just saying you need to know what you’re up against. Cheating spouses rewrite history, find ways to blame you (my offense? I “walked too heavy” lol), often leave clues to their affair, and are sometimes financially unscrupulous. You can’t fix her alcoholism if she’s not willing to get help or admit she has a problem. An affair is likely giving her the same buzz - infatuation lights up the same parts of the brain as cocaine. .

Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 01:41 PM
Lee,

First off I would like to say I am sorry you are going through this right now.

It’s actually not uncommon for people at middle age to ask themselves “is this all there is to life right now”. It’s also not that uncommon for people to question if they still are in love with their spouse. Right now you are both rewriting history. The marriage wasn’t as bad as she says it was and it wasn’t as good as you think it was. You both are wearing different colored glasses based on emotions.

Unfortunately I agree with KML it is highly likely your W is having an affair. If you really want to know you can find out.

Right now it doesn’t feel like it but separating immediately and seeing a lawyer is your best strategy right now. The best thing to do right now is give her a box of her stuff, wish her well and go out and live a kick ass life. I know that goes against everything you feel you should do. Time and space are the only things that fix these things long-term.

Sounds like a horrible idea doesn’t it? Every bone in your body is telling you that you need to do something to prove your love. Unfortunately that ship has sailed and the fastest way to get back together is to go in the opposite direction.

I promise you years from now you will either be glad or wished you had listened to me.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 02:33 PM
Bomb drop was Feb. 19th so this "process" has been going on a while now.

I read a lot of forums, and watched YouTubes, some good, some bad. Some more academic, some from male "attraction experts" who say it is all about lost attraction & everything else is periphery.

Anyway, I started working out. Every day. I've lost 25 pounds, and look and feel good. I have a history of panic/anxiety and depression but I have none of that right now due to learned coping over the years, going through stuff and coming out the other side, and just remaining healthy. I am upset about the divorce but not depressed.

Next Wednesday we go to court to finalize everything. She acted as if she was attempting to break the all time divorce record or something, rushing through this. We signed an MDA agreement in March.

I purposely left out some stuff that I will now add to see if you guys suspected affair without it. Suffice to say, now you will really be beating the affair drum.

W has a male friend we have had dinner with over the years she has known since college who has dated two of her friends. In fact when we were dating, the first time I went to her house he was there with a group of people. They have been friends for 20 years. Never any romantic involvement.

This man, who we will call Roy, is a compulsive liar. Major things or just stupid things. He will tell you he went to McDonalds when he really went to Burger King.

A few years ago he dated a ballerina in town, much younger than he is. He lied about his job, was living in her midtown apartment here in the South (keeping it generic as to avoid personal details) for free, and then moved in w her parents in New York City (they are apparently rich) to attend some chefs school.

Long story short he wasn't attending the school, just living it up in NYC living in a wing of her parents mansion. They eventually found out, and all his lies unraveled. He moved from the South out west out of embarrassment.

He did the exact same thing with someone out west, but he impregnated her. We found a blog she wrote about meeting a "wonderful man" and thought "haha little does she know!". Wife and I always made fun of him and shared news stories about sociopaths who fool women and would say "Oh look it's just like Roy!".

Well you compartmentalize people. W reasons she knows the real him. They have been friends for a long time. So we would still occasionally have dinner with him. I was annoyed by him--she was too but-

Anyway fast forward to early Feb, Roy had move to another state out west after fleeing his latest failed romantic con job (the one I mentioned earlier that resulted in a child).

W was getting beat up by coronavirus quarantine and working from home everyday. I could see it. Our loves were somewhat built around our trips, and those were out for most of the year. In Feb she said she was going to stay at an Air BnB out west were Roy lives to relax and unwind for the weekend and he was going to come by on Saturday and show her these hiking trails in the desert.

I didn't love the idea at all but this guy is a guy she has been friends with for 20 years. I DO have platonic female friends I would never hook up with. It's probably best to just let her do it, I thought.

She comes back Sunday, her flight was delayed 3 times. She seemed weird to me. We went to a neighbors Super Bowl party and she loosened up a bit. I knew she had been depressed anyway so her behavior had an explanation.

The next week we have a snow day and Roy is in town. He does come to down because he has two other daughters in the south. He gets snowed in and stays the night with us which annoys the crap out of me.

At some point in the night W gets wine drunk and it seems like she is trying to get me to go to bed so she can hang out with him! This pisses me off however they are old friends. They next day she says she knows I don't want to sit up and listen to their college talk, I seemed annoyed and that's why she suggested that.

At one point I went to another room and came back and it look like she was leaning over him hugging him. It was quick, I couldn't tell. But it didn't make much sense. If you are having an affair, you hide it. You don't bring your affair partner into your home with your spouse. I always knew my wife as a moral person.

5 days later bomb drop she wants a divorce. The next day we were suppose to talk but she texts and says she has decided to get away to think and we will re convene and discuss when she gets back. Her destination? Out West where Roy lives!

She says it is because she just stayed there, needed somewhere to stay with 12 hours notice, and that same place had an immediate opening.

She comes back even more resolute wanting divorce and then a few days later that's when she brings up some old 12 years prior dating partner and tries to savage our physical lives in comparison to theirs despite all the mountains of evidence -- even physical evidence in the house, to the contrary.

All this seems suspicious in the least BUT Roy is an old friend. He is someone she would hang out with through this. He is a morally compromised person who would be in no position to judge her. She was avoiding family and friends for weeks and months because she didn't want to answer to anyone and was just talking and hanging with Roy and one other female friend.

I do have two female friends who, if this happened I might hang out with regularly and it would look suspicious to others but I would not be hooking up with them.

WELL then a month or so later a black SUV is parked on the street for about a week. A neighbor gets curious about it. I come outside. Another neighbor says "W's Friend parked it there." another says "I saw your W get in an uber with the man who drives this car.

So I try to get in the car w a coat hanger. The plates were of a state W had mentioned moving to at the beginning of the year after she gets her next bonus. I could have tracked the vehicle by the VIN number but there was a card over the VIN spot in the dash. I finally called a locksmith and lo and behold, it was Roy's car.

I text wife that "you two sociopaths' deserve each other". She says I am "crazy". Later says Roy called to see how she was doing through this and she was eating out east and he was going to a city near there too to work & wanted to ride with her as far as he could.

Thing is, he does some kind of job involving internet towers. I know the company. They do have a hub in the city he was headed to.

So there is plausible deniability is all of this. Every step. So it is very difficult to confirm.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 03:45 PM
Good Morning Lee

I am sorry you have had the rug pulled out from under you and found yourself in this situation. However, this board has many kind and compassionate people with much hard earned wisdom that understand what and where you find yourself.

kml and LH are correct in their advice and suggestions.

For the next good while most advice will seem counterintuitive. It will feel wrong, and go against what you feel to be the right thing to do. This is perfectly normal and hopefully you will read other threads around here and see the wisdom of those that have gone before and heed what you can.

Your W’s behaviour and her blames are typical and common reasons for divorce for those who are confused and hurting. Spouse’s project upon their once loved spouse with such petty things to some truly outlandish branding. Do not argue with her. You cannot reason or change her mind, for she is lost in a world hurt and irrational turmoil. She is being pulled and pushed by her emotions and will lash out to those closest to her - because she cannot be wrong.

Consider that: She cannot be wrong. This is where she is at. Her life is currently an emotional shambles in her head. This has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her. You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.

All you efforts towards that end will backfire and push her further away. Like LH said, the fastest way is actually in the opposite direction. Think of her as a scared squirrel, if you run after her she will bolt. No sudden movements, go about your life, focus on you, and that squirrel watches you.

What ages are you and W. You turned 40, so I guess early forties. MLC is a life transition that goes horrible wrong. We all look at our lives at certain points along our journey. A crisis happens when one has unrealized and unknown past trauma(s) that were buried. The brief outline of W’s growing up and her family has quite a few leading indicators of significant trauma.

These traumas would happen from a person in a position of authority and usually when the individual is young. This young person having no well established mechanism for dealing with such trauma - abuse, sexual assault, whatever - blames themselves and in the only mechanism they have, buries it deep within themselves along with all their incorrectly associated blame and guilt. And that which is buried alive will later haunt.

A mid life transition digs up our past. Your W had and has no idea of what is causing her current desperate feelings - she has buried it so deeply and so long ago. You being present in her life, get blamed. Her only avenue - for it cannot be her due to her present psychological and emotional state - is to look outside herself and you are right in her view.

That is the crux of a mid life crisis. Past unrealized and unreconciled trauma(s) that pushes one beyond their emotional limits. It’s a crisis of irrational emotional pressure and pain. There are beyond rational reason. Everything they do is based upon how they feel. Once they enter a crisis they must complete it. Some, with well meaning but ultimately bad external force, do exit early, only to renter their crisis later to continue their path. And the second time around is far far worse for the crisis person.

Time and space. She needs both and lots of it. No relationship talks from you. No pressure from you. If she starts something, do not continue it. Valid her feelings and do not defend or argue your side or try to show her how wrong she is. She needs time to realize that “Hey, I haven’t spoken or been with Lee for quite some time and I’m still unhappy. Therefore it must not be his fault.” From this point, and by the way that takes time for her to get there (if she gets there), she needs to then turn her attention inward and look inside to find the cause of her pain.

You are on two paths right now. An emotional one, and a business one. At times you will need to set aside your emotions and attend to business. I know how difficult that is.

Divorce is not an emotional decision. Emotions are fleeting. I know they feel like they will last forever, they do not. Do not make life altering decisions based upon emotions.

Divorce is a business decision. Do you need financial security or protection? Find out how much debt you have personally, and together. And how much family debt you are liable for - usually half. Talk to a lawyer and learn your rights and the most likely outcome, the best case, and worse case of a divorce. See what is negotiable and what is not. And do not tell W about any of this! All you are doing is seeking legal advice. Getting information.

If you do not require financial protection then let W do the heavy lifting towards whatever goals she has in mind. Do not stand in her way, but don’t help her along too much. Most crisis individuals are more talk than action. Your W was a driven gal previously. That doesn’t automatically translate into she will be now. I know - counterintuitive.

Folks that enter an emotional crisis become the exact opposite of who they once were. Neat freaks become slobs, highly driven become lazy drug smoking sit in the sunshine folk, and moral honourable people have affairs and partake in all manner of illicit behaviour and activities. You have seen it - the allure of the new and experimental. The novelty. W is scared and questioning her life and the responsibilities of it. And she is running from all that.

If you need financial protection - get it.

Focus on you. And breathe my friend. Just breathe. I know how fast all this seems. My W’s record was dropped the bomb, threw away the kids, and moved in with OM all in three hours. 60 days later we were legally separated and all finances and legal ties cut. We’ve kind of famous in the legal circles around here. Well, I’m famous, she’s infamous.

Breathe and focus. Give your self time to heal and get you feet under you again. Go out and do things. Pick up old hobbies you put off, those things you set aside for marriage and work and such. See what passions ignite you and live your best life. Become the best version of you. And most importantly - do it for you.

Regardless of the eventual outcome you will be alright. You will thrive.

Look inside yourself and discover yourself. Do not rush this. You’ve got the gift of time, use it wisely.

Ask any questions you have. We all require a certain level of understanding before we are able to move forward. You are among friends and those that know where you are.

Stay strong.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 04:14 PM
Hello Lee

I was typing while you were updating.

That affair drum is beating pretty loud.

Look, I get it. My W was a moral woman and mother. The MLC version of her is completely different. Seriously, a different person. They are like an alien in the body that we still recognize. And that is the problem. We still see them as them.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
At one point I went to another room and came back and it look like she was leaning over him hugging him. It was quick, I couldn't tell. But it didn't make much sense. If you are having an affair, you hide it. You don't bring your affair partner into your home with your spouse. I always knew my wife as a moral person.

Things will not make sense. Those in crisis or who have made the decision to have an affair are beyond the rationally reasoned view and well into the irrational realm. You are looking at the situation from your rational view, working to attempt to make sense of things. The understanding and reasoning you are seeking is rather non-logical at first.

Why would they do that? People hide affairs. Nope. A crisis person wants to get caught. Needs to get caught. They want to blame you. I know, counterintuitive. Doesn’t make sense does it?

It’s part to hurt you. Because hurt people, hurt people. W is trying to hurt you so you will lash out and she can further justify her position and emotions. Further her narrative and rewriting of history.

However, does it matter? Affair or not. This is no easy question to answer, and only you can answer for yourself. For some that is it, the deal breaker. Others less so.

Affairs are exceeding commonplace for those in a crisis. It is a symptom of the emotional train wreck they are running towards. It means nothing. Any affair or relationship born from a crisis is built upon the sandy foundation of lies and deceit. And like a foundation sand it cannot support much.

It looks like your business path is getting sorted out on Wednesday. Good job! There are many who suffer having that drag out for years and years.

Is this a separation agreement, a divorce, or some other arrangement?

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 04:44 PM
Thanks for everyone's wonderful feedback.

We already signed an MDA in March with the money agreement. Next Wednesday is when the judge stamps it officially I guess.

So one of the neighbors who told me "If it were my wife I'd bash the window out of that car" talked to my wife and told her I was trying to get into it, eventually getting a locksmith.

She was very angry at me for this. I technically shouldn't have had the vehicle opened up but the neighbors were expressing concern, the plates appeared to be expired, it had been there over a week and the said the man that got out of the vehicle left with my wife.

What husband WOULDN'T investigate that?

But she is using that to say that I am "acting crazy" and "my behaviour isn't helping her feelings for me." Keep in mind I've got no contact several times for weeks at a time. I make no attempt at finding out where she has gone. I work on myself, work out every day. I am no overly emotional to the point that other people comment and say they would be much worse off than me in the same situation.

Also she claimed at the beginning that it was all her fault and when I mentioned still making dinner for her every night she said "Don't be nice to me. I don't deserve that."

She also has mentioned several times her poor mental health, needing "to see someone, a therapist but I am not sure if I believe in that", having "major mental health and trauma issues" but when I say the same things back to her she gets angry, as if I am saying it in an accusatory or finger pointing or humiliating way.

Lately she is angry at me because she says I am telling her friends "That I am crazy and an alcoholic" and it's like, that is one way to frame it!

Another way to say it is that I am concerned about her mental health status, I am only repeating the same things she has said about herself. That is clearly what is driving this regardless of how her true self feels about me.

A few days ago I drive by our street and I see her getting into Roy's vehicle again. She was back at the house a couple of hours later so lunch is a plausible explanation but the timeline here is getting ridiculous.

You would just have to know how surprising an affair with this particular person would be to everyone.

Anyway I confronted her about it and she was like "you know him. you know we are friends. We used to have dinner with him" she denied everything and from her body language--if she was lying she is very, very convincing.

We went into more divorce talk even though I know better at this point.

Basically it was her saying she's told me why, I just don't want to here it and me saying "yes, I know what you've said but so much of what you are saying doesn't jive at all and you know it."
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 05:37 PM
Lee,

Your W is having an affair with Roy. Accept it process it and never mention it again. Every time you do it builds you up as the adversary and bonds them together.

Be thankful that she’s having an A with a loser because once she stops running on emotions she will eventually see him for who he is as a person. There is a thread on here for a former poster “Hoosjim” if you can find it sounds similar. He eventually reconned with his W after she had an affair with a toe truck driver.

No more relationship talks and try to make yourself as scarce as possible. Your ride is just beginning and will take many months/years before it plays out.

SteveLW a vet here has stated that 90% of WWs will eventually want to reconcile. My friends parents reconciled after 35 years apart.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Lee,

Your W is having an affair with Roy. Accept it process it and never mention it again. Every time you do it builds you up as the adversary and bonds them together.

Be thankful that she’s having an A with a loser because once she stops running on emotions she will eventually see him for who he is as a person. There is a thread on here for a former poster “Hoosjim” if you can find it sounds similar. He eventually reconned with his W after she had an affair with a toe truck driver.

No more relationship talks and try to make yourself as scarce as possible. Your ride is just beginning and will take many months/years before it plays out.

SteveLW a vet here has stated that 90% of WWs will eventually want to reconcile. My friends parents reconciled after 35 years apart.


This last time I saw her get in his car, I started feeling this way. Leaning towards the affair being likely.

At this point I am actually rooting for the affair to be the answer because it explains everything.

And you are right about this guy being a loser and it does take the edge off. I am, in no way jealous of him or even too angry at her about it. It is more telling about her mental state than anything else.

If she had an affair with a tall (I am tall too), dark (I am not dark), very handsome professional, go-getter, high acheiver, really cool guy, that would sort of gut me in that, she was looking for higher attributes that perhaps I do not possess.

This person is literally a conman. A clown.

Are there any tips on confirming the affair?

Again, this is a person she would be hanging out with if she were single. Perhaps as much as she has been with no physical or romantic contact. She does actually have some logical, plausible deniability but in this case the timeline and reactions here do lend themselves to the affair being real

I guess another question would be, how closely can something look like an affair, but not actually be an affair?
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Lee,

Your W is having an affair with Roy. Accept it process it and never mention it again. Every time you do it builds you up as the adversary and bonds them together.

Be thankful that she’s having an A with a loser because once she stops running on emotions she will eventually see him for who he is as a person. There is a thread on here for a former poster “Hoosjim” if you can find it sounds similar. He eventually reconned with his W after she had an affair with a toe truck driver.

No more relationship talks and try to make yourself as scarce as possible. Your ride is just beginning and will take many months/years before it plays out.

SteveLW a vet here has stated that 90% of WWs will eventually want to reconcile. My friends parents reconciled after 35 years apart.


It certainly does help a bit that the guy is a loser and a cheap conman. It lends evidence to her mental state that she be involved with him at all.

In fact, even if there is no affair, and there is still some real, legitimate plausible deniability here, the fact that he is the company she is keeping at this point has to be because he's so morally compromised himself, he makes for a good buddy during this.

I don't even have the sort of pang one might expect out of this. If she was messing around with some tall, dark, handsome go-getter, professional type with charisma I might feel inadequate, but this guy is a clown. It's more like "okay, if that's what you want, you do you."

From the perspective of a feminist, which she claims to be, it's interesting she is spending time with someone who has not just lied to woman, but proactively and maliciously misrepresented himself to them and damaged them as a result.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 08:49 PM
Yup - she having an affair. With a guy who’s going to drain her bank account. Crazy. But they do crazy things.

My ex counseled his best friend about stopping his affair and saving his marriage (which friend did) about a year before he cheated on me.

I’m glad your finances are sorted. Separate anything that hasn’t already been separated. Do NOT trust her with anything!

Then let go. Odds are good this won’t work out well for her, but ask yourself this: WHY would you ever want her back? She’s a selfish alcoholic. You didn’t marry her because you felt you couldn’t live without her. I’d be grateful there are no children involved, sign the divorce papers and go no contact. Start planning an exciting new life for yourself. (I bought a drum kit when my ex left, learned to play drums, joined an adult rock band class, then went on to play in a pop punk amateur cover band for five years, and to tour with a professional singer songwriter friend playing percussion and vibraphone. Living well is the best revenge!
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/26/21 08:50 PM
PS the fact that she maintained a friendship with a compulsive liar who uses women was a HUGE red flag. Good people don’t hang out with people like that.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/27/21 12:47 AM
What you need to know us - this isn’t about YOU. This is about her, her alcoholism, her depression - and her CHARACTER defects. This is a good opportunity to work in yourself, own what you can own, improve yourself - but so you can be better in your next relationship. Maybe learn why you married an alcoholic and didn’t notice? Why you got married just because it was expected? What red flags were you ignoring that you should have seen earlier in the relationship?
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 03:06 PM
Last week I went by the house to get things, and I saw her get into his car.

She was back in about an hour, so-- again, it's plausible that they went to lunch. He is a person she would be hanging out with through this, they hung out a lot in the past and never hooked up.

so I confronted her the next day directly and her body language seemed convincing.

It is just a strange place to be in. If I am at least not suspicious, I am a fool. But if I accuse and it is just as she says-- friends (as they always have been) I look hysterical.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Last week I went by the house to get things, and I saw her get into his car.

She was back in about an hour, so-- again, it's plausible that they went to lunch. He is a person she would be hanging out with through this, they hung out a lot in the past and never hooked up.

so I confronted her the next day directly and her body language seemed convincing.

It is just a strange place to be in. If I am at least not suspicious, I am a fool. But if I accuse and it is just as she says-- friends (as they always have been) I look hysterical.

Lee,

So let's say she is having an affair with Roy. What changes?
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 04:02 PM
She's not going to admit it to you - and WASs can be amazing liars. Many of us have been lied to our face. Sometimes quite convincingly.

That being said - let's presume, for a tiny moment, that she ISN'T having an affair with Roy. Why, then, is she leaving the marriage without giving counseling a try? Why is she abandoning her lucrative career to move to the town that Roy happens to be living in? Why wasn't she trying to work on the marriage before? Why is she suddenly justifying it being over after her spending a weekend away where Roy lives? And what is wrong with her, that she leans on a compulsive liar who abuses women financially for support in leaving her "supposedly" broken marriage that you knew nothing about until recently?

Sorry - I've tried to imagine any other explanation besides an affair and frankly, can't think of one. I suppose she could just be looking for an alcoholic drinking buddy but she could have done that much closer to home.

Do you have access to cell phone records? Usually they leave a trail of nonstop texts and/or calls to the affair partner.

But the bottom line is - she has left the marriage. She didn't give you an opportunity to try to repair whatever she thought was wrong. You weren't head over heels in love with her when you married her. She's an alcoholic in denial. Hard as this might be to hear, she may be doing you a favor by leaving you. Let go or be dragged. I know it's hard to see them driving towards a cliff but right now there is nothing you can do to save her. She is firing you from that job.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by kml
She's not going to admit it to you - and WASs can be amazing liars. Many of us have been lied to our face. Sometimes quite convincingly.

That being said - let's presume, for a tiny moment, that she ISN'T having an affair with Roy. Why, then, is she leaving the marriage without giving counseling a try? Why is she abandoning her lucrative career to move to the town that Roy happens to be living in? Why wasn't she trying to work on the marriage before? Why is she suddenly justifying it being over after her spending a weekend away where Roy lives? And what is wrong with her, that she leans on a compulsive liar who abuses women financially for support in leaving her "supposedly" broken marriage that you knew nothing about until recently?

Sorry - I've tried to imagine any other explanation besides an affair and frankly, can't think of one. I suppose she could just be looking for an alcoholic drinking buddy but she could have done that much closer to home.

Do you have access to cell phone records? Usually they leave a trail of nonstop texts and/or calls to the affair partner.

But the bottom line is - she has left the marriage. She didn't give you an opportunity to try to repair whatever she thought was wrong. You weren't head over heels in love with her when you married her. She's an alcoholic in denial. Hard as this might be to hear, she may be doing you a favor by leaving you. Let go or be dragged. I know it's hard to see them driving towards a cliff but right now there is nothing you can do to save her. She is firing you from that job.



Well MLC would be the explanation. And the Roy thing a red herring. A friend who, himself morally compromised, will not judge and will fully support. An old college friend, who himself doesn't have many friends.

She also has WAW symptoms.

Said she has been unhappy and holding it in for a long time. Wanted me to be more physically active. Wanted me to do more hiking with her (she never made plans, never did I tell her I would not do anything she wanted".

Also I am on my phone too much-- which I can be,. I used to dabble in the comedy world and had a podcast so I do a lot of online comedy I get some attention for. She said I wasn't here for the real life, "the real deal" -- even though I am not sure staying high all day and drunk every night is the real deal.

Let's see, what else? My bathroom and messiness. Honestly it is just that her standards are out of this world. Everyone knew me as a "very clean and neat for a bachelor" when I was singe. But that messiness and disorganization bothered her.

And then she said she lost attraction. Also never was REALLY attracted (nonsense, physical evidence and experience to the contrary). So she will go from these perhaps legitimate, but not marriage destroying reasons to basically saying she is not longer attracted to me and attempting to savage me physically -- which, if you saw me in person I think would give you a good laugh. I am no Tom Selleck but I am not what anyone would call unattractive either.

When I bring up her drinking she says she was miserable so what do I expect? But she has always drank, not quite to that level but somewhere close. And to hear her describe it, she is some kind of battered woman! Yes it was coronavirus, and the relationship was in year 6-7 so it wasn't all rainbows and fireworks. This exaggerated misery to typical stuff seems like evidence of chronic depression to me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 06:53 PM
When people get into affairs, it's a very stark mixed bag of feelings. For one, getting loads of positive attention from a member of the opposite sex is intoxicating, it's really like a drug. Then, there's the accompanying feeling of guilt knowing that they are doing something wrong.

Rather than get angry at themselves, they think "why am I feeling guilty? It's because of HIM, HE'S making me feel guilty"

Then, you become the bad guy, and they look to reinforce their argument that "you are making them do this" by searching for any negative things that you do, re-writing your history so it was always bad, etc. etc. etc.

It's a very predictable and repeatable pattern unfortunately, and the things your wife is saying and how she is acting are no different.

The guilt she feels over her A is yet another reason she resents you, so anything you do to guilt her, shame her, or make her responsible for your sadness is going to increase her guilt and therefore increase her resentment.

Your best bet is to go the opposite direction and give her more space than she wants. The DB prescription is (1) 180: whatever she assumes she knows about you, demonstrate that it's not true. If you used to get angry and honk in traffic, don't do that even in the worst scenario, etc. (2) Get a Life: go out and do things with other people and enjoy your life, establish new relationships, (3) Act as If: Act as if everything is 100% awesome in your life.

There is NOTHING you can do about her affair partner or what she's going to do next. You can only control what you're going to do next.

People often fear that if they go in the other direction, are they telling their partner they don't care, or giving their tacit approval for the affair to continue, or how will they demonstrate that they're different if the other person doesn't see them, etc. etc.

The answer to all of that is "NO" -- the answer is to give space, not pursue, and all it means is that you're giving space. There's nothing else to read into it.
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 07:49 PM
Dear Leechild,

First of all very sorry you are here. If it is indeed MLC be prepared as they have unfortunately
a very long way to go.

Please carefully listen to all the advice you will get here. These people know about what they talk.

You will not be able to apply all their advice at once, and this is perfectly normal, since this is a journey for you as well.
You will when you are ready for it.

In regards to the affair, it is crazy how they can lie in your face, it’s like they believe it themselves.
My H, who was a terrible liar before MLC, could look straight in my eyes, telling me I was seeing ghosts, I was completely crazy for thinking he had an affair.

Do not believe anything she says.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:02 PM
I know this goes against DB protocol, but I think I might send this as an email. I'm not sure I want her back now and I do believe this could get to the moral person buried inside the monster.




"If someone wanted to make it look like they were having an affair even if they weren't actually involved in one, they would behave EXACTLY as you have the past few months.

Roy is a skank. A clown. A cheap con. A Compulsive liar. The other women he fooled were young and naďve. They had no frame of reference for who he is, so they were just trusting victims. Innocents.

You know exactly who he is. So if you got involved with him, that would make you among the biggest imbeciles I've ever met.

So, there's no way. There's just no way. Any person who would leave their husband, go hang out with a man in Arizona, get too drunk, bang him like a skank, and then bring that man back to her & her husband's home & attempt to get their husband to go to sleep so they could spend more time with him -- they'd be among the biggest pieces of [censored] anyone has ever heard of.

And that's not you, so no way is this going on.

It'd be one thing if you were involved with someone truly handsome, tall, charismatic, a real life go-getter. That would likely sting. But Roy? He's a gutter skank who lies to women & drains their bank accounts. He's one of those weird people with no feelings or heart, or remorse. In no way would I be jealous of Roy. I'd be really embarrassed though and it would be indicative of your absolutely disastrous mental health state.

So there's no way you'd ever be involved with him. That's an utterly ridiculous notion.

I mean you wanted a quick, easy divorce so if this were happening, you would just tell me anyway, right? It'd make me an eager divorce partner. But wait-- maybe that truth is too damaging to reveal-- what it'd do to your life. The shake out. How it would turn you into a small, stupid nothing. How it would take a decade or so to recover from. It'd ruin you.

I mean you'd look like the biggest ***** clown imaginable. You'd lose half of your friends and you'd completely lose the respect of the other half. Hell, you might be forced to move somewhere like Colorado and start over.

You'd also be so compromised morally. You'd have to convince yourself of these lies about your husband. You'd likely have to rewrite the history of the entire relationship and make yourself believe it in order to keep your fragile psyche from breaking apart over this. It'd have to be systematic.

You would probably start off apologetic about the divorce, but then try to cast an equal part of blame off on him, and then over time you could slowly build a case -- lame. Flimsy. But a case nonetheless that he is a bad guy. Try some push-away tactics. Say utterly despicable things about him and see how he reacts.

Then cast his very typical, understandable husbandly behaviour during all of this as "bad". Frame it in the most convincing ways you can to your friends.

You can't live with this guilt but your husband keeps reminding you of what you have done with his pesky questions. And what you've done is horrific. Vile, Satanic. And most of all -- embarrassing & utterly life destroying. You know that so you'd have to go ALL IN.

But how could this be that bad when you are ACTUALLY a "good" person? No no it MUST be him. Double down. "He got into that car (as any husband would). He's telling our friends I am crazy and a drunk. I mean I am a drunk with a severe mood disorder, I admit as much, and I've texted Lee over and over about how I need help but [censored] it. Bury that. It feels like it makes sense so I'll make it all make sense to me."

You'd know your affair clown is not a viable future partner so maybe you would have some plan. A plan to get rid of the husband, eventually dump the clown, and move on like you never did anything wrong.

Or, who knows, maybe you've lost yourself so fully, that you plan on staying with him and being his next victim. I mean, he does HIKE after all-- and if you don't have a plan I can guarantee you he does. He will get your money. Maybe you'll get impregnated with this idiot scammer's child. Who knows? So you'd better have a plan because he definitely has a plan.

Anyone would be able to see this train wreck coming except for you.

So there's no way this is happening. My wife is a smart person. A moral person.

This scenario can't possibly be true, so it's so weird that it all looks to be exactly that. Isn't life funny?"

laugh
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:17 PM
DO. NOT. SEND. THIS.

You can't get through to them this way. Drop the rope. Live your best life. If she comes back it will be because she sees you as independent and strong and interesting, not as clinging or accusatory. (Although I'm still not sure why you want her back.)

It doesn't sound like anything you did was marriage breaking. Normal people not having an affair go to marriage counseling to iron out stuff like this.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:23 PM
And as much as you may want to warn her about the sleazy friend, she's not gonna hear you right now.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by kml
DO. NOT. SEND. THIS.

You can't get through to them this way. Drop the rope. Live your best life. If she comes back it will be because she sees you as independent and strong and interesting, not as clinging or accusatory. (Although I'm still not sure why you want her back.)

It doesn't sound like anything you did was marriage breaking. Normal people not having an affair go to marriage counseling to iron out stuff like this.


Yeah that's just it. If she is having an affair, I do not want her back. If she is having just MLC and the Roy stuff is circumstantial and non romantic/sexual then I would be interested in reconciling but from what I understand MLC lasts a long time and I don't have years to wait.

Although given her comments about "I started feeling this way 2 years ago" perhaps she could possibly be deeper into it now. Who knows? MLC is a real thing but it is not a technical diagnosis (although the depression that drives it is) so not much research on this -- we just have shared case studies-- which can be helpful.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:26 PM
Btw - as an aside - I noticed she traveled in the middle of the pandemic. I know a lot of marriages have broken up over differences in politics and basic understanding of science/conspiracy theories during this pandemic. Do you think there were any issues here? Has she been sucked into QAnon or some such?
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:28 PM
DO NOT SEND THAT EMAIL!!!!!!
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Btw - as an aside - I noticed she traveled in the middle of the pandemic. I know a lot of marriages have broken up over differences in politics and basic understanding of science/conspiracy theories during this pandemic. Do you think there were any issues here? Has she been sucked into QAnon or some such?


No. The traveling happened in Feb. so it was at the end and it was to a place in the mountains.

Also we both had COVID in Dec. follow mask protocols, etc. But that stuff is no problem. We are both slightly left leaning moderates for what that's worth.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:44 PM
Still get vaccinated if you haven't already. Studies now show that previous Covid infection isn't very good protection against the Delta variant but Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 08:45 PM
Also February was definitely not the end of the pandemic.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/29/21 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Still get vaccinated if you haven't already. Studies now show that previous Covid infection isn't very good protection against the Delta variant but Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are.



I got vaccinated in April, not sure if she did. She's stayed away from the home 90+% of the time through this since Feb.


She took her nephew on a graduation trip a couple weeks ago, and asked if I could remain away Sunday & Monday so they could spend time together, and of course I said I would.

Tuesday I came to the house at lunch, and noticed she was not working that day at her desk, and she was in "Street clothes", so I surmised that she took some extra vacation time after the trip. She won't usually speak to me so I have to deduce things. I decided to give her the rest of the week alone at the house. So I stayed at Mom's.

The MDA agreement we signed said we would cohabitate through this. I have been trying to come up with a way to open in-person dialogue when we are both home together, which is the only way I feel any progress can be made.

She wants to come home from her frequent hiatuses and have me stay away for weeks at a time. She wants to call all the shots. I told her I would work with her here and there but I am not staying away for weeks from our home. At this point I have been abandoned, emotionally abused, and now she wants to tell me where to live and stay, even disregarding the MDA agreement her lawyer typed up.

I came home Friday night, and went to bed in the guest bedroom where I've been sleeping through this. She texted me something to the effect of "how long is it going to take for you to move out".

I thought 'Gosh. This is so silly. I have spent every day for 7 years with this person and now she is texting me from another room in our small house?"

So I decided to go to her bedroom door, and I opened it and said "Let's talk".

All hell broke loose. She was screaming and pushing me. I put my hands to my side robotically & said "I am not touching you. I am not touching you", and just kept backing up. She slammed the door and the smoke alarm fell down from the ceiling. She threatened to call the police & I said that's fine by me. I hadn't done anything.

The most heart breaking thing was seeing her attempt to concoct a story that I pushed her and that I threw something at her. I could see the moral confliction on her face as she tried to rationalize it. She called the police, they showed up, and I told them exactly what happened.

She was made to leave the house.
.
So at this point she's left me to hang out with a con man, tried to savage me and our physically life (despite clear evidence to the contrary) by bringing up some bald dentist from 12 years ago, and finally, she's called the cops on me.

Formally, this was a rational, loving person. She had a bit of a drinking problem and could get low in mood, but she was loving and normal otherwise.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 01:23 AM
Hello Lees

Do not send that email. It will do far more bad than good!

Look man, I understand where you are. I’ve been there. My XW changed and became the complete opposite of who she was. She threw away her four kids, demanded I got full custody, ran away from the house and all responsibilities. And plenty of terrible heartbreaking other stuff. Oh, and yeah, she had an affair. She is still living with the guy.

Your email touch’s on lots and lots of points. Rational points even. However! Really listen here. However, your W is not rational right now. She is consumed by her irrational feelings! Everything I. Your email can be true (and rather is), and it won’t make a bit of different to her. I’m fact it will be use against you. She will twist it and turn it and create more justification for why she needs to leave you.

As for affair partners. I’m a pretty handsome guy as well. My XW’s OM is a slow witted large (like 300 lbs) man. And not too attractive. This is factual and not my jaded opinion. Affair partners are just a symptom. Something to use.

A person in crisis - they usually do not trade up. They find some poor sap who they can manipulate and control. The control I speak of is emotional control. The person in crisis is creating the emotions of the events that traumatized them. An abusive parent will be mirrored in their affair partner. They subconsciously are looking to tell off the authority figured of their past that traumatized them. To grow up. To heal. Of course, the way they are going about it is not very healthy. However, MLCers do not realize all this. To them, nothing is wrong with them. Ah, if only they would go to counseling.

Oh, a really big caution and advice. Do not tell W she is in crisis or crazy or wrong or whatever. Seriously! She will not take that very well.

As for your decision of not wanting her back.

Originally Posted by LeesChild
I'm not sure I want her back now and I do believe this could get to the moral person buried inside the monster.

First off you are only not sure you want her back. And that is being driven by your feelings. Do not make any life altering decisions based upon feelings! Feelings are fleeting. They will change, and therefore the very “reason” for whatever decision you made, changes too. Making choices and decisions based upon feelings always leads to regret. Just look at your wife and her choices and her reasons.

My XW had many reasons for leaving as well. Her’s we’re just as petty and really not worthy of throwing away a marriage. Mine was 27 year marriage and 31 years together. Some of the crazy justifications were the furnace vent blew cold air on her. My work truck burned too much gas and she was trying to save the planet (never mind I actually drive a Prius smile ). She’s been unhappy for 2, 5, 15 years (wow that’s quite a range). And so on and so on. Oh, they are so confused.

People in crisis or emotional turmoil are excellent manipulators. This is twofold. The first is the lies and deceit of the life she is living and all the misdirection and misinformation she tells. And it is bigger than just telling you - she actually tells herself. Talks herself into believing her lies! Think about that. That is how far gone these poor souls are.

The second round of lies are more insidious and deeper. These folks cannot be wrong. They cannot handle their emotions, guilt, pressure, and the pain of their past trauma(s). They must, absolutely must!, not be at fault. Consider that. Their psyche is so consumed and in such torment they lie and create a fantasy reality in which their spouse is usually the bad guy. And a person’s mind is incredible good at creating their reality. Heck, even us LBS do it.

Very few people write themselves as the villain in their life story. Your W is no exception. She cannot be the villain - so she cast you in that role. And that altered reality is completely real for her. You cannot talk her out of it, because she doesn’t even know she is doing it. The lie her mind tells itself is that insidious and hidden. It takes time and space to emerge.

MLCers will expect incredible energies to maintain their fantasy. They absolutely have to. If you fight directly against it, you will lose.

At some point you may truly decide you do not want her back. That’s ok. However, presently, this is not the time to make that decision. You are emotionally compromised. It’s rather obvious, yes? So do not make any decisions, especially rash ones.

I do understand your idea that such an email will snap her out of it. If she was who she was that would probably be true. Thing is, she currently ain’t the gal you remember. Trust me, I know how weird this is.

The bigger view regarding that email. If you are done with her, sending the email does nothing since you don’t want her back. If you might want her back, send it hurts your chances. In both cases, sending the email will only hurt her. Pushes her deeper into her torment. That email screams pressure and that will cause her to dive much deeper into her fantasy.

Do not try to manipulate her path. She must walk her path. And unfortunately you weren’t invited along on her painful journey. Any attempts at altering, will have undesirable effects. Nothing you do can speed up her journey. In fact, all it does is slows her down.

You have read about MLC. There is a triggering event or events that usually occur around 18-24 months before bomb drop. Events that are significant to the person. A marriage, a death. Things of that nature. Things that stir up those past ghosts and how fragile life is. My XW’s grandma die, then grandpa, then our second oldest son moved out for university. She actually blamed him. In front of him. My poor boy. He was pretty upset thinking he caused mom to go crazy and leave. These crisis people are hurting so much they will lash out and to anyone and everyone who stands in their way. They hurt anyone in a futile attempt to make themselves feel better. Those triggers unleash something that buried long ago and it comes back and will not be denied.

Realize: Hurt people, hurt people.

The best you can do is focus on you. Find detachment and emotionally let go. Otherwise you’re just going to get dragged along and that really hurts. I know about that too, by the way.

You do not need to move on, just move forward. In fact, moving on is not a great idea at this point in your journey. Move forward with your life. Focus on you. Heal you.

I will talk with you. Answer any questions you have. Pass on whatever I can. I support you Lees. You are the most important person in this equation. You and your life. Keep sight of that.

A whole and healed Lees does not need to send that email.

Find your way to that place my friend. I’ll walk with you if you like.

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 02:57 PM
Okay I won't send that one. But maybe I'll send this one!



"Telling me and texting me that you need major mental health help while getting angry at me for expressing concern for your mental health state to our mutual friends sounds stupid to me

Telling the person you married that you were never really that attracted to him after 7 years together, 30% of your entire adult life, sounds stupid to me

Telling your friends I can’t [censored] or whatever, sounds stupid to me (suddenly now you are some sexual dynamo?)

Bringing up some strange looking dude from over a decade ago by name and comparing me unfavorably to him sounds stupid to me. (And crazy)

Looking the person you chose to marry in the eye and telling him that you will never think of him when he is gone but that you will day dream about some weird looking, bald, short term dating partner who rejected you over a decade ago is a retarded, baffling, utterly satanic thing to say to a spouse—and it sounds stupid to me.

Telling me, after all these years of writing "best [censored] time ever" on wine corks that you saved that you got [censored] better years ago sounds stupid to me

Telling me that every outburst of ass showing, crazed bitchiness from you over the years was my fault for making you miserable sounds stupid to me

Telling me that staying in this relationship any longer would make you suicidal, instead of looking inward, working on yourself before leaping to divorce, and acknowledging the effect of the pandemic sounds stupid to me.

Blaming your alcohol issues & every over-drinking incident on me & your dissatisfaction w our relationship when you’ve clearly & admittedly been over drinking for years & years prior to us ever dating, sounds stupid to me

all this stuff sounds stupid, shallow and crazy to me. That's how I FEEL. I can't guarantee that it is all accurate. It's just how I feeeeel.

It feels like all of this is coming from another human being.

I guess it is possible that I misread what type of person you were from the beginning, and projected onto you what I wanted you to be & you just faked for years. I can't rule crazy [censored] out. But the breadth of the evidence does indicate, to me, a mood disorder fueled midlife crisis. You are not the person that I knew

If that’s the case, then please get help.

If this is just the real, authentic you, then God help you and anyone who gets close to you.

The two hardest things for me are resentment and wholesale regret. Resentment at what you’ve done. Regret I ever met you. Hard to type. Hard to think. It's what I feel.

I don’t know that any of this is actually forgivable. It feels like some elaborate, vicious, long term prank.

Can’t help my feelings. They are my feelings.

Good luck with the weed and the wine and dating balding 5'11 hikers (your actual, physical type) this time around. Hope it works out."
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:05 PM
DO NOT SEND THIS EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
DO NOT SEND THIS EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So, the other one then? the first one? grin



We just got divorced this morning, so does it even matter anymore?
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Okay I won't send that one. But maybe I'll send this one!



"Telling me and texting me that you need major mental health help while getting angry at me for expressing concern for your mental health state to our mutual friends sounds stupid to me

Telling the person you married that you were never really that attracted to him after 7 years together, 30% of your entire adult life, sounds stupid to me

Telling your friends I can’t [censored] or whatever, sounds stupid to me (suddenly now you are some sexual dynamo?)

Bringing up some strange looking dude from over a decade ago by name and comparing me unfavorably to him sounds stupid to me. (And crazy)

Looking the person you chose to marry in the eye and telling him that you will never think of him when he is gone but that you will day dream about some weird looking, bald, short term dating partner who rejected you over a decade ago is a retarded, baffling, utterly satanic thing to say to a spouse—and it sounds stupid to me.

Telling me, after all these years of writing "best [censored] time ever" on wine corks that you saved that you got [censored] better years ago sounds stupid to me

Telling me that every outburst of ass showing, crazed bitchiness from you over the years was my fault for making you miserable sounds stupid to me

Telling me that staying in this relationship any longer would make you suicidal, instead of looking inward, working on yourself before leaping to divorce, and acknowledging the effect of the pandemic sounds stupid to me.

Blaming your alcohol issues & every over-drinking incident on me & your dissatisfaction w our relationship when you’ve clearly & admittedly been over drinking for years & years prior to us ever dating, sounds stupid to me

all this stuff sounds stupid, shallow and crazy to me. That's how I FEEL. I can't guarantee that it is all accurate. It's just how I feeeeel.

It feels like all of this is coming from another human being.

I guess it is possible that I misread what type of person you were from the beginning, and projected onto you what I wanted you to be & you just faked for years. I can't rule crazy [censored] out. But the breadth of the evidence does indicate, to me, a mood disorder fueled midlife crisis. You are not the person that I knew

If that’s the case, then please get help.

If this is just the real, authentic you, then God help you and anyone who gets close to you.

The two hardest things for me are resentment and wholesale regret. Resentment at what you’ve done. Regret I ever met you. Hard to type. Hard to think. It's what I feel.

I don’t know that any of this is actually forgivable. It feels like some elaborate, vicious, long term prank.

Can’t help my feelings. They are my feelings.

Good luck with the weed and the wine and dating balding 5'11 hikers (your actual, physical type) this time around. Hope it works out."

Actually reading this email makes you sound like a complete passive aggressive A-hole. If this is how you normally communicated with her I think you may have your smoking gun.

I know you are hurting but this email makes you look really bad. All about how you feel and anything she feels is stupid.

You have some work to do Lee.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Originally Posted by LH19
DO NOT SEND THIS EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So, the other one then? the first one? grin



We just got divorced this morning, so does it even matter anymore?

How about you wish her well and go live a kick a$$ life?
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:17 PM
Quote

Actually reading this email makes you sound like a complete passive aggressive A-hole. If this is how you normally communicated with her I think you may have your smoking gun.

I know you are hurting but this email makes you look really bad. All about how you feel and anything she feels is stupid.

You have some work to do Lee.


When your wife, whom you have barely even ever raised your voice to, comes in one night, brings up some strange man from 12 years ago, physically savages you, and says she will continue to think of him and wonder about him but she won't even think of you at all once the divorce is over -- well, [censored] like that tends to make someone emotional.

Anyhow, there is a reason why I am getting this out and sharing it all here--these fake emails--rather than sending them to my (freshly, as of this morning) ex-wife.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Quote

Actually reading this email makes you sound like a complete passive aggressive A-hole. If this is how you normally communicated with her I think you may have your smoking gun.

I know you are hurting but this email makes you look really bad. All about how you feel and anything she feels is stupid.

You have some work to do Lee.


When your wife, whom you have barely even ever raised your voice to, comes in one night, brings up some strange man from 12 years ago, physically savages you, and says she will continue to think of him and wonder about him but she won't even think of you at all once the divorce is over -- well, [censored] like that tends to make someone emotional.

Anyhow, there is a reason why I am getting this out and sharing it all here--these fake emails--rather than sending them to my (freshly, as of this morning) ex-wife.

Lee again I know you are hurting and its ok to be emotional. When your alone find a safe place to cry, beat your pillow, scream or whatever it takes to process it.

You can do either one or two things from this experience. Learn from your mistakes and move on or do nothing and become angry and bitter. I can promise you the first option will breed better results in the future.

You will see in time that this was not all on her nor was it all on you. It was on the both of you. It looks like she is going down a really troublesome path. You do not have to do the same thing. You can grow from this if you choose.

Be better then her.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:41 PM
By the way, I have been reading this board for 2 months as well as some other good sources prior that gave good advice-- the same sort of counter-initiative philosophy as here at DB.

Other than a few failures here and there, I have remained consistent, and loving. Validating her feelings, telling her I understand but disagree and letting her know, each time that I am here, waiting any time she wants to talk-- that I strongly prefer reconciliation.

This was after the bomb drop back in Feb when I spent an inordinate amount of time making the best case I could to work on my issues -- not even addressing hers since I felt the best philosophy is "I go first/I can only work on me" and that I would set a loving example.

I've also worked on myself physically. I went from mostly sedentary to working out EVERY day. I have lost 25 pounds, gained muscle and endurance and I look better than I have since I was 25 (I am 42). and that's for me and my health, not necessarily her although the side effect of looking better to her was possible.

But none of that mattered to her. And that is when she switched gears to, basically "You are ugly and boring and I never really liked you or was attracted to you and I even liked ______ better, so THERE" (which is the same way a 4th grade girl breaks up w her boyfriend, weirdly).


So, just for context here, I know I am new to posting, and I was taking a "Parable of the Prodigal Son" philosophy to all of this, trying real hard, giving enormous space (I NEVER tried to find out where she was etc.), communicated consistently, mostly didn't lose my cool. Doing MOST of the best practice DB type stuff. but it hasn't mattered.

So I think it's okay that I express some emotion here through some emails that I don't really plan to send but sorry if that offends some people's delicate sensibilities.

When your wife runs off with a conman, savages your sex life with tales of a bald dentist from 12 years ago, then calls the cops on you in an attempt to frame you, one TENDS to get a TAD bit emotional.

I dunno-- maybe I am the crazy one.
Posted By: HaWho Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 03:46 PM
Writing letters you never intend to send can be a great way to express and expel the anger. It’s so important you burn that anger off so that you can get yourself strong and healthy no matter the outcome of your relationship with her.

What resonates with me is how frequently she is talking about being bored and needing the unexpected (to the point that she is self destructive). Based on the family molestation and incest I suspect she is a chaos kid. If you aren’t familiar with this, look into it. These are adults who feel most comfortable in the same chaos that was swirling around them as children. Calm, peaceful environments are actually unsettling to them because they are unfamiliar. They misread it as boring.

Until they face it, they will create chaos because it’s familiar and comfortable.

You are doing great. Keep feeling what you are feeling. You will get through this.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
By the way, I have been reading this board for 2 months as well as some other good sources prior that gave good advice-- the same sort of counter-initiative philosophy as here at DB.

Good! Keep it up. There are good books out there on validation.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Other than a few failures here and there, I have remained consistent, and loving. Validating her feelings, telling her I understand but disagree and letting her know, each time that I am here, waiting any time she wants to talk-- that I strongly prefer reconciliation.

Say you validated her feelings and understanding her is great! Saying you disagree with her not so much.
W: Lee I never loved you or was attracted to you.
L: I hear you and understand you feel that way
L: I disagree you loved me and were attracted to me

Do you see how the last sentence is you saying "YOUR WRONG"?
Originally Posted by LeeChild
This was after the bomb drop back in Feb when I spent an inordinate amount of time making the best case I could to work on my issues -- not even addressing hers since I felt the best philosophy is "I go first/I can only work on me" and that I would set a loving example.

Or you could have just worked on your issues because you can only control you Lee. You can't make her change or like your changes.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I've also worked on myself physically. I went from mostly sedentary to working out EVERY day. I have lost 25 pounds, gained muscle and endurance and I look better than I have since I was 25 (I am 42). and that's for me and my health, not necessarily her although the side effect of looking better to her was possible.

That's great Lee! 25 pounds is alot. Keep working on you.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
But none of that mattered to her. And that is when she switched gears to, basically "You are ugly and boring and I never really liked you or was attracted to you and I even liked ______ better, so THERE" (which is the same way a 4th grade girl breaks up w her boyfriend, weirdly).

Yeah my guess is she's mad because you are making changes now when it's too late and you will look great for another woman. Nothing you can do about it.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So, just for context here, I know I am new to posting, and I was taking a "Parable of the Prodigal Son" philosophy to all of this, trying real hard, giving enormous space (I NEVER tried to find out where she was etc.), communicated consistently, mostly didn't lose my cool. Doing MOST of the best practice DB type stuff. but it hasn't mattered.

Unfortunately Lee by the time you find this place it's usually too late to prevent the D. That doesn't mean you can't reconcile later. That's why you don't want to burn any bridges by sending nasty emails.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So I think it's okay that I express some emotion here through some emails that I don't really plan to send but sorry if that offends some people's delicate sensibilities.

Absolutely! Most newbies actually send them first and then come here.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
When your wife runs off with a conman, savages your sex life with tales of a bald dentist from 12 years ago, then calls the cops on you in an attempt to frame you, one TENDS to get a TAD bit emotional.

I'll bet. I certainly understand why you are so upset.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I dunno-- maybe I am the crazy one.

No crazy just emotional right now. When people make decisions based on emotion there are sure to be consequences.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by HaWho
Writing letters you never intend to send can be a great way to express and expel the anger. It’s so important you burn that anger off so that you can get yourself strong and healthy no matter the outcome of your relationship with her.

What resonates with me is how frequently she is talking about being bored and needing the unexpected (to the point that she is self destructive). Based on the family molestation and incest I suspect she is a chaos kid. If you aren’t familiar with this, look into it. These are adults who feel most comfortable in the same chaos that was swirling around them as children. Calm, peaceful environments are actually unsettling to them because they are unfamiliar. They misread it as boring.

Until they face it, they will create chaos because it’s familiar and comfortable.

You are doing great. Keep feeling what you are feeling. You will get through this.



Thank you so much HaWho.

Yes, of course in reading about MLC I've run into that term and it very likely applies to her. She is also the youngest of 3 sisters, the baby and simply used to getting her way. She was successful early on, always made straight A's, took herself out of that lower middle class situation, and was used to doing as she pleased for most of her adult life (and there isn't anything really wrong w that). I was always very proud of her btw.

Also, I think she sort of shined in my adoration which I was happy to shower her with constantly. I felt loved and appreciated in return so it didn't seem one sided to me. But now I am wondering if she seeks people who do this, and once she uses up that energy, she is out. I am not sure, this is speculation at this point and I want to be careful not to pathologize her clinically just because she wants a divorce from me even if I suspect some sort of venerable or covert narcissism now. But that stuff can be a bit like reading a horoscope-- we latch on to what seems to fit, and ignore what doesn't.

In some ways she probably feels she really tried this and thought she wanted this traditional sort of life at the point that we got married, but it turns out she did not.

Quote

You have read about MLC. There is a triggering event or events that usually occur around 18-24 months before bomb drop. Events that are significant to the person. A marriage, a death. Things of that nature.


DnJ is quoted in the above

W mother died when she was 23-24. Cancer. She sort of abandoned her mother during this time. This created estrangement with the middle sister who moved back to th country to take car of the mom. The sister reached out to me and we talked about this. W was the "apple of mom's eye" but she abandoned her, out of sight out of mind, when she was sick.

W admits as much, says she was young. Had a fiancé that she broke it off with) didn't know how to handle her Mom's illness and how it made her feel so she just stayed away--similar to how she stayed away during our divorce. That's why I still think an affair might not be happening. Abandoning and avoiding is in her nature and in this case may not be a sign of affair (although given the other evidence it does seem likely).

Anyway -- about two years ago, my father, who adored my wife, got cancer. My wife became really close to my family and really seemed to take to being embraced by them.

But twice in a row when Dad was first diagnosed, he asked us both to visit, W agreed but when it came down to it, she said "I am tired from work why don't you go alone".

This hurt my Dad's feelings. Dad died a few months later.

This really dug at me -- but I reasoned that maybe my Dad's cancer brought back trauma from her mother. Also later on she spent a lot of time with my Mom in the hospital, so that square everything in my eyes.

Anyway, in retrospect, she is now saying this has been going on for 2 years.

Could my father's death have been a triggering event for her?
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 04:24 PM
Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D

Check out the question/comments I posed to you above.
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello Lees

It is a great idea to vent here. Crafting emails you don’t intend to send is a step along the path to processing all this and finding acceptance. You will receive a compassionate ear and shoulder and encouragement and reminders to not send such potentially damaging venting to her. Why? Why we tell you such stuff?

For you!

Everything here is to save you. That is the primary and first and foremost goal. If your marriage or relationship is reconciled, it is a bonus.

Vent and let go.

Choose better not bitter.

D

Check out the question/comments I posed to you above.

Lee I would caution you not to try to diagnose her. You do not MLC because that typically runs 7-10 years.
Posted By: harvey Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 06:42 PM
I wrote a letter to my XW--against the board's wishes. It did absolutely nothing. Now, I was at the point where I didn't have any expectations that it would help. Nonetheless, it was a complete waste of time. It didn't take me long to realize that I needed to put my primary focus on detaching. Thinking about and writing long letters doesn't help at all with detachment.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 06/30/21 08:30 PM
Sure, your father's death might have been a trigger. My exH (who I now realize in retrospect is a narcissist) also was really scared of death and dying. Turning 40 (and later turning 50) were real triggers for him. What might he be missing out on?? Life is short!! He might never find his dream Asian wife if he doesn't hurry up and dump his loving wife of 24 years now! Something or someone else out there might be able to fill the hole in his psyche.

It can be hard to diagnose a person in crisis, but if you look back and see signs of narcissistic behavior way prior to her crisis, you may be correct.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 01:03 AM
Hello Lee

Yes, your Dad’s death would be a likely trigger. That kind of thing brings forth just how short life is, and how we just never know how much time is truly left. Compounded for your W is her guilt of not going to see her loving father in-law. And now she can’t, which brings up even more pressure and guilt and regret and so on.

Of course, the hidden (or not so hidden) pain of her Mom’s cancer and death. And that she abandoned and ignored her Mom while she was ill. Her Mom’s death, the grief, the guilt, the regrets, were buried away for years. These were likely uncovered and became more triggers rather than being the hidden trauma(s).

I would think there is something even deeper, given her family’s history. Something from when she was younger and she did not have the emotional tools to handle it. An authority figure of some sort. She then grew up blaming and hating herself for something that really isn’t her fault. And she probably doesn’t even realize or know what that is, yet.

W did stay away from her Mom while she was ill for probably some reason.

So yes, your Dad’s death is a triggering event. The real question that is nagging at you is, what it triggered. Is this MLC? Right?

Mid life crisis has a few significant hallmarks, some of which your W is displaying. Very significant personality change. New values and behaviours. Throw morals out the window. And so on.

Depression is ever present. The MLCer will plunge into running behaviours in an attempt to drown the depression. However, in the darkness or night, alone in their bed, their demons come out and play. For no matter how far and fast they run, one cannot outrun themselves. And that is what the MLCer is trying to do. Run away - from themselves. They just don’t and cannot see it.

A pretty significant hallmark of MLC is confusion. The MLCer exhibits confusion. They flip and flop. Their attention spans are like that of a gnat. And their memory is like Swiss cheese - full of holes. There is so much turmoil ongoing in their mind, so much irrational pressures, the rational part gets shoved to the side.

Crisis people are running on their emotions. Everything is about how they feel. How something makes them feel. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they cannot handle anyone else’s feelings. That is a big reason for the no pressure advice. They just can’t handle it.

Running behaviours usually take on a rebellious, adrenaline seeking, illicit slant. And there is not much limit to just what they might try. Drugs, sex, booze, fast cars, illegal activity, and so on to name a few. MLCers have two sides to their emotion problem which they are trying to drown. The feel too much, and they feel nothing. Both at the same time.

The MLCer does a weird time travel as well. Living in their tormented past. They will recall things from long past like it was yesterday. And then spring forward to the present or some other time of torment. This particular characteristic explains some more of the “why” our own loving spouse can be so cruel and mean and destroy the marriage seemingly so easily. They are not married. They are that hurt lost little child. That young person isn’t married, doesn’t have children, doesn’t want responsibilities, etc. They know or are aware of their grown up adult life, but it doesn’t have any emotional connection to them. You have seen the indifference towards you. Have gotten the ILYBDLY speech. They are a younger version of themselves. An adolescent with the privileges, rights, and money of an adult. Little wonder they go crazy with their behaviours.

This all very confusion for us LBS. Imagine how confusion it is to the person embroiled within such a torment. I would not wish MLC upon anyone. It is terrible.

So to the question at hand. Is W lost within MLC? There are a lot of signs. You know her best, and have seen her behaviour. What do you think?

Time does provide more clues as it progresses. W will show more and more of her behaviour. Her mask and narrative will slip more and more, showing the hidden confused pain within. For example, my XW coming up on four years post BD is barely reaching out to her children. Is still crazy thin. Still behaves strangely. Has even more plants covering all the floor space in OM’s house (she over 500 now by the last estimate from son). Has three MLCer personalities living within her - the dominate one the rebellious 18 year old, the 13 year old girl, and the 7 year old child. And many other weird and strange traits.

It takes a certain amount of understanding to let go. I get that. No one just lets go without explanation. However, MLC or WAW or WAS or whatever, the facts of your present situation don’t change. Your view of your situation can and will change. Knowledge is power. Use it for good. Better not bitter.

Consider what behaviours W has exhibited. Look not to her words, look to her actions. Confused? Forgetful? Angry? Emotional? Irrational? Physical? Tell me about them. Consider how apt MLC appears or not. Then start to work to accept the unacceptable. To believe the unbelievable.

You are asking good questions and are showing a healthy inquisitive mind. Now, sharpen that mind and find your control over self. It is difficult to rationalize our spouse’s irrational behaviour. Find your strength to accept the irrationality of all this - for now. Have faith, you will learn much more as time goes on.

Let go your anger and emotions in a safe manner. Sweating them out doing yard work is a pretty good one. Running, physical work outs, whatever. Physical activity gives your mind something else to focus on; releases feel good chemicals; and uncouples your irrational ties between W and your emotions. I’ve written a lot about the path. That last one is basically training your mind. If you vent when you’re angry that reinforce those feelings. If you go for a run, your mind gets different inputs which are not those previously reinforcing ones. Poof, anger loses its grip upon you. (That was the very short version and explanation. smile )

Hope your day was good.

Stay strong Lee. You got this.

D
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 01:44 AM
JUst FYI though LC- D's wife is the number one most likely to be seriously mentally ill/drug addicted WAS on the boards (and I've been here a long time and seen it all).

This generous description of factors that D laid out may be triggering your wife is certainly likely. On the other hand, if she's a narcissist, some narcissists (the sociopathic kind) would simply bow out of seeing dying relatives in the hospital because they don't like it and they don't want to do something they don't care to do. (My exH was not a sociopathic narcissist, but more of an insecure narcissist - he really really cared how he looked to others, and by extension, how his wife and kids made him look to other people. He would go see the dying relative so long as other people were going to see it, so he could play the big man. But privately he lacks empathy for the troubles his adult kids are going through, griped endlessly about it when we helped my younger brother out of a jam that was not his fault, etc. Publicly he's the great humanitarian but privately - not so much.)

Only you know, if you look back, if this was a pattern before the crisis of her only doing the things that she enjoyed, and bowing out of things you might have wanted to do. Or bowing out of things that might have required her to put herself out for other people. If any of this resonates you might want to read The Sociopath Next Door - quick and easy read.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by kml
JUst FYI though LC- D's wife is the number one most likely to be seriously mentally ill/drug addicted WAS on the boards (and I've been here a long time and seen it all).

This generous description of factors that D laid out may be triggering your wife is certainly likely. On the other hand, if she's a narcissist, some narcissists (the sociopathic kind) would simply bow out of seeing dying relatives in the hospital because they don't like it and they don't want to do something they don't care to do. (My exH was not a sociopathic narcissist, but more of an insecure narcissist - he really really cared how he looked to others, and by extension, how his wife and kids made him look to other people. He would go see the dying relative so long as other people were going to see it, so he could play the big man. But privately he lacks empathy for the troubles his adult kids are going through, griped endlessly about it when we helped my younger brother out of a jam that was not his fault, etc. Publicly he's the great humanitarian but privately - not so much.)

Only you know, if you look back, if this was a pattern before the crisis of her only doing the things that she enjoyed, and bowing out of things you might have wanted to do. Or bowing out of things that might have required her to put herself out for other people. If any of this resonates you might want to read The Sociopath Next Door - quick and easy read.



Yeah that's what I am trying to figure out. If it is MLC there would be some hope, if I am willing to wait it out, continue to show love and compassion etc. No guaranteed by any means, but hope.

But with narcissistic personality, there really is no hope. There was no real "love" there in the sense that you or I think of love.

If she has that, it would be some covert/vulnerable narcissistic personality disorder. She doesn't have the overt, very manipulative version. Which makes me think, maybe I am splitting hairs here looking for a label. Depression/MLC seems very likely.

Also divorcing someone can be incredibly selfish, and so is MLC, so right now all of her behaviors so seem more narcissistic but as far as how that paints the history of the relationship, I don't want to re-write with a wave of the hand like she is doing. If I cherry pick here and there-- I can probably find a pattern but I have to weigh that fairly here.

There was also a wonderful person in there that I loved very much who by all accounts seemed to be on my "team", cared for me, was there for me in ways a person with overt malignant narcissism would or could not be.

I did see that she went to see her friend's baby the other day and I know she does not care for babies. So this would have been one as a "show". OR, I mean it all depends on how you frame things, maybe she did it in good faith to support, even though she doesn't like babies.

We all do things for social reasons sometimes in order to "do the right thing" that maybe we truly don't want to do. So what is the difference between doing it for appearances and doing it for support? I want to be fair here, we can all be REALLY selfish from time-to-time and we aren't all narcissists.

I am ruminating too much here.

In review:

Depression fueled MLC: Very likely.
Vulnerable Narcissism: possibly, very hard to discern
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 03:47 PM
Also, I want to get this down here while I am thinking about it


W told me the issues in the marriage she had with me and said "If I would have said something earlier we probably could have worked through them but I let it go on to long and pretended that everything was okay and it went too far".

This arbitrary "point of no return" really bothered me. First let's remember that most would agree that the issues she brought up, ALL of them were petty, not worth throwing a marriage away for, or at the very least, workable and in no way where these pervasive communicated problems that we had worked on for months or years.

They amount to: "My bathroom was messy/my room messy. I wasn't as active physically as she'd like. I didn't take an interest in her hiking hobby. I was on my phone/online too much. My anxiety affected us (even though her depression literally ruined our marriage".

So her saying that the issues hit some arbitrary "point of no return" that she herself made up, really pissed me off. It is a marriage. It is important. We have all the time in the world moving forward. So that statement to me is nothing more than a statement of CONTROL. "I have decided this because of ME and I will not be moved from it."

Yet, in the beginning I was gung ho at taking responsibility and telling her all the things I'd be happy to do to work on the marriage. And I was 100% sincere about it and didn't take it as her coming down on me or judging me. I want to be a better man and partner after all.

But in the following weeks, and it took a while, It finally dawned on me. "Yes, these are legitimate issues. They are not divorce worthy and they are the type of common problems present in nearly all marriages or relationships."

another "A-ha" moment happened a few weeks ago.

According to our agreement we cohabitate but she wants to come in after her trips, where she stays away for weeks, and tell me to go to my Mom's for weeks at a time so she can stay home, alone. I told her I would not be doing that.

She asks why do I feel "entitled" to "her house" and I say "I don't, actually but your lawyer's agreement does LITERALLY entitle" me.


I go on to say, I will not be bullied and ordered away from the home one her whims.

She tells me to "grow up".

I think...hmmm. At first I thought of all the ways in which I am not so grown up.

Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".

I hate to sound self righteous and I always want to look within first but -- JEEZ. Facts are facts.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 04:27 PM
So wait - you are signing divorce papers, what is the disposition of the house? Who gets it in the divorce? Why do you have to still cohabitate?

Also - as for the "point of no return" - that happened when she started her affair. Once they are all infatuated with someone new, they rewrite history. Like I said before, one of my H's complaints was that I "walked too heavy", and not only that, I taught our daughter to do the same! The crazier or more trivial the complaints are, the greater the likelihood that it's not ABOUT you. They are just reaching for something to justify their behavior.

At this age - why were you attracted to a wife who thought "every night should be Bonnaroo", and who drank heavily and smoked MJ daily? One thing to figure out is, why weren't these red flags that you saw earlier in the relationship? What is there about your past or family of origin that made these things seem attractive instead of negatives? For instance, my good friend will inevitably find attractive the one guy in the room who is an alcoholic. She doesn't drink, her parents didn't drink, but her "fun uncle" was an alcoholic and it's like she subconsciously gravitates to that every time.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 05:06 PM
Good Morning Lee

Originally Posted by LeeChild
Yeah that's what I am trying to figure out. If it is MLC there would be some hope, if I am willing to wait it out, continue to show love and compassion etc. No guaranteed by any means, but hope.

But with narcissistic personality, there really is no hope. There was no real "love" there in the sense that you or I think of love.

You might just find your current definition of love is going to get a huge upgrade.

There is always hope. Hope is believing in the possibilities. Hope lives in that realm; lives in what is possible.

Hope is an incredible force. It can propel you to some amazing things and it can bind down.

You see hope is a spectrum from wishes to expectations. Fanciful to reality. I hope to win the lottery (wishful and fantasy). I hope I get to work safely today (expected and pretty much a reality).

If you keep your wishes, hopes, and expectations clear it helps a lot. Problems start when we let our hopes, our belief in the possible, become expectations. When expectations go unmet, resentments build. Keep your expectations to zero regarding W, marriage, relationship, and such. For sure hope, for there is plenty of hopeful possibilities, just be wary of getting your expectations up and therefore crushed.

The best hopes and possibilities concern you. What hopes do you have for your life. Hopes and dreams that are focused upon you and do not include W and the two of you. I know how big a task that is at first. We were living our blissful happy lives, expecting things to continue forever. We didn’t think to figure out what to do if we got divorce and ended up single.

Find yourself in the midst of all the rubble of the marriage. Stand and dust yourself off. Detach and let go. Discover your values and beliefs. The why and deep rooted soul of who you are. Do you like him? Proud of those values? Strengthen those that serve you. Craft beliefs that you aspire to. Alter values you are not proud of. And discard those that do not serve the life you want to live.

That is the larger path. And like any journey it starts with small steps forward. You’ve made many steps so far. You have the business side sorted out. Financially things are settled, you have financial security and protection (I think). Keep moving forward.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
She tells me to "grow up".

I think...hmmm. At first I thought of all the ways in which I am not so grown up.

Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".

I hate to sound self righteous and I always want to look within first but -- JEEZ. Facts are facts.

Her behaviour vs her words. You can see she is not behaving grown up. She is projecting her faults and guilt upon you. She blames you for the very faults she exhibits. Pure projection. Of course she knows you and therefore knows how to twist the knife and bring up just enough truth to make it believable. Do not take on all of the blame, only own your part of things. Work on those areas of valid criticisms.

If you hate to sound self righteous, then don’t. Let go the judgment of W. State the facts. Those are steps along the path. Steps towards detachment.

D
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/01/21 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
W told me the issues in the marriage she had with me and said "If I would have said something earlier we probably could have worked through them but I let it go on to long and pretended that everything was okay and it went too far".

There is typically a point of no return they get to but this has more to do with her affair then anything else.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
This arbitrary "point of no return" really bothered me. First let's remember that most would agree that the issues she brought up, ALL of them were petty, not worth throwing a marriage away for, or at the very least, workable and in no way where these pervasive communicated problems that we had worked on for months or years.

95% of marriages with no abuse can be amended if you have both parties trying. This rarely happens hence why 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
They amount to: "My bathroom was messy/my room messy. I wasn't as active physically as she'd like. I didn't take an interest in her hiking hobby. I was on my phone/online too much. My anxiety affected us (even though her depression literally ruined our marriage".

This is all WW script.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So her saying that the issues hit some arbitrary "point of no return" that she herself made up, really pissed me off. It is a marriage. It is important. We have all the time in the world moving forward. So that statement to me is nothing more than a statement of CONTROL. "I have decided this because of ME and I will not be moved from it."
Nah. She is telling you how she feels right now.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Yet, in the beginning I was gung ho at taking responsibility and telling her all the things I'd be happy to do to work on the marriage. And I was 100% sincere about it and didn't take it as her coming down on me or judging me. I want to be a better man and partner after all.

Become a better man for you not her.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
But in the following weeks, and it took a while, It finally dawned on me. "Yes, these are legitimate issues. They are not divorce worthy and they are the type of common problems present in nearly all marriages or relationships."

Right. But again remember that 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
According to our agreement we cohabitate but she wants to come in after her trips, where she stays away for weeks, and tell me to go to my Mom's for weeks at a time so she can stay home, alone. I told her I would not be doing that.

Good!
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I go on to say, I will not be bullied and ordered away from the home one her whims.

Good!
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".

So Lee this begs the question what are you trying to save?
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 04:08 PM
I gotta say: I understand.

I understand that from pragmatic perspective and a strategic perspective what has been show to work and not work when dealing with MLCers

But good God.

It's pretty hard to "validate their feelings" when they are telling you that they feel like they are actually a 73 foot tall mechanical lady-dragon from the 11th century.

Some of this past crap is open to interpretation and some of it isn't. And my (newly) Ex-wife was saying crap that was clearly, demonstrably false. .

Yes they are in vulnerable, powerful states of consciousness driven by seemingly ungovernable feelings but they are also making choices to hurt and maim and destroy, not only everything in their path currently, but they entire history of your lives together.

A lot of it seems like placating a bratty child
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 04:22 PM
Lee,

I know this is very difficult right now to wrap you arms around we have all been there.

Right now she only sees the bad in the marriage (that will change) and you only see the good (that will change).

You have no children so this will be an easier break. Read my tagline and focus on that and the rest will work itself out.

You each are on a journey and your paths may or may not cross again one day.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Lee,

I know this is very difficult right now to wrap you arms around we have all been there.

Right now she only sees the bad in the marriage (that will change) and you only see the good (that will change).

You have no children so this will be an easier break. Read my tagline and focus on that and the rest will work itself out.

You each are on a journey and your paths may or may not cross again one day.


Oh I know and accept the bad in the marriage. Her part and my failures, and sins of commission and omission if you will.

I was under no illusions that marriage was all good-times, party time. So I expected some of this and I certainly expected rough times. but this crap is on a whole 'nother level & completely void of reason and logic.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
but this crap is on a whole 'nother level & completely void of reason and logic.

Yep. Sounds like you’ve kind of answered MLC or not.

Same journey for you either way though.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 10:14 PM
Validation isn't about agreeing with what they're saying necessarily - it's about acknowledging that that is how THEY feel. Answers like "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "That must be difficult for you" do NOT include saying "yeah, you're right and I'm wrong". It's a way of keeping lines of communication open IF you want that.

I understand your need to get an answer or for her to admit what she is doing is wrong but you won't get it. And chasing it doesn't help you.

You never answered my question about the cohabitation. What happens to the house in the divorce agreement?
Posted By: Traveler Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/02/21 10:41 PM
kml beat me to the punch. Active listening and validation have nothing to do with agreement. You're just showing that you understand how she feels and what she's saying to you. It often de-escalates, or at least doesn't escalate, a situation. It gets you out of the most common way of interacting--half hearting what others say as you come up with a defense or comeback.

"Wow, so when I eat a grape, you believe I'm threatening to become a cannibal and eat you."
"I see you're angry. I hear you'd rather I stayed somewhere else."
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/05/21 03:39 PM
Someone asked earlier about the house.

She bought it in 2009. We started dating in 2014, and got married in 2016.

Also, I think I mentioned she makes a lot more money than I do. She paid the house off, at my encouragement the past 2 years.

Due to the relatively short duration of the marriage (4.5) years and me not being on the deed, I don't get much out of the house. I am receiving a cash pay out for my contribution with some appreciation factored in.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/05/21 09:03 PM
Ok - so you are waiting for the cash payout before you move out, is that it? How long will that take?

I’d suggest you move as soon as you have that money in hand. Nothing good comes from you sharing that space with her at present, except that it puts pressure on her to cough up the settlement money.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/06/21 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by kml
Ok - so you are waiting for the cash payout before you move out, is that it? How long will that take?

I’d suggest you move as soon as you have that money in hand. Nothing good comes from you sharing that space with her at present, except that it puts pressure on her to cough up the settlement money.





I have 30 days, well roughly 25 left now to move my stuff out. Then I get the payment. Oh I haven't been staying at the house since she called the cops. That let me know where she is at, so to speak-- how far she's degenerated.

Something did happen after the divorce was final. I felt my duty as the "stander" was officially over. I do accept that this is almost all her. Everything else, the things that were said and done was/is just white noise. She is, in a real sense, out of her mind. At least in terms of, she is not the same person who married me.

In the last week I am feeling less of a personal connection to her and less of a responsibility to try to figure out and push her to get help for her issues. I am accepting that this is not my wife. This is mostly a stranger.

I have a psychiatrist friend who is actually one of the top research psychiatrists in the world, with 30+ years of experience.

I gave him the entire run down, family history, substance use, relationship history with me-- being as objective as I could possibly be--making sure to point out my issues as well-- and he says he strongly suspects chronic depression and said "people do strange things midlife".

I asked about midlife crisis and while he said it is not a clinical diagnosis it is an event that people experience that is spurred on by depression. In his experience when the depression is treated, the crisis dissipates.

He said, I'll quote him here

“Midlife crisis” describes a real phenomenon that some people experience. It is not an official diagnosis but, rather, a description of an even in a person’s life. We would use the term in a way that is similar to how we use “suicide.” It is an event in a person’s life that is most often related to underlying depression. I have a patient who has a “mid-life crisis” every time he gets depressed – he wants to leave his wife, go into another field of work, move away, etc. When the depression subsides, the crisis goes away. BTW, he is 67 years old and I have seen this happen with him several times now. I am able to “talk him out of it” by reminding him of the prior experiences. This kind of event often affects a person globally – that is, affecting multiple areas of life. So, in your wife’s instance, it is not just leaving you, it is moving to Denver, getting a new job, etc. That global unhappiness (rather than unhappiness about one thing in particular) is usually a product of depression in my experience.


I shared some of this with my wife. He suggested cognitive behavioral therapy for her. She admitted, and told me, with no prompting several times that she has issues, is covering for them with substances, that she needs help.

When I say basically the same thing back to her, she acts like I am accusing her of something awful and gets defensive. I don't get it. She gets to admit it, I just don't get to say it, not even out of a place of concern and motivation to help.

I have also expressed concern to our mutual friends about her mental state and alcohol abuse, in a loving, concerned way. W frames it as "You are telling all our friends that I am crazy and a drunk".

It's like "I am expressing the exact same concerns you have expressed to me! You know you need help and have said as much. So-- what gives?"
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/06/21 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
When I say basically the same thing back to her, she acts like I am accusing her of something awful and gets defensive. I don't get it. She gets to admit it, I just don't get to say it, not even out of a place of concern and motivation to help.

I have also expressed concern to our mutual friends about her mental state and alcohol abuse, in a loving, concerned way. W frames it as "You are telling all our friends that I am crazy and a drunk".

It's like "I am expressing the exact same concerns you have expressed to me! You know you need help and have said as much. So-- what gives?"

Lee everything you try to tell her right now is going to pi$$ her off. There is a quote a poster uses that describes how a WW feels about a LBS at the current moment "Every Breath You Draw In My Presence Annoys Me."

This will change in the future with time and space. Right now just wish her well and go out and lead a kick a$$ life. That is your only winning strategy because she will want to be a part of it or you won't care because you are leading a kick a$$ life.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/06/21 04:54 PM
Quote
She is, in a real sense, out of her mind. At least in terms of, she is not the same person who married me.


Or. more likely, she is not the same person you THOUGHT you married. I must admit, my ex didn't "suddenly change" when his MLC hit. Looking back, I can see the red flags that were present even in the beginning, but that I chose to ignore. A narcissist can seem fine when they're wooing you and happy with you because you make them look good or fit their current idea of what they want. You might not notice the uneveness in the relationship while it seems fulfilling enough. I thought I was being a good, flexible spouse by accommodating him but in retrospect I see how much more I gave than he did.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/19/21 04:42 PM
My offer was accepted on a townhouse near a location I wanted to be at, so I am very happy about that.

I have 11 days to get my stuff out of ex W house--what was our house. Sort of just dreading going into the house with all the memories but it has to be done. Other than records, books and clothes I only have a bed frame and a chest as far as bigger items to get out of there.

Closing on my new place is on August 9th. Once I get it furnished and livable I think I will feel a lot better.

Continuing to exercise -- I've dropped 30 pounds. At this point I am not even trying to lose any more weight yet it keeps coming off!

Going to therapy once every 2 weeks. Therapist says I am not feeling or acknowledging the emotions -- I am intellectualizing instead.

I am having these little "aha" moments. When W laid out the things she thought were wrong with the marriage I was so excited to have items to tackle. But those things were red herrings.

I had so much love and respect for her that when she would give me these criticisms I assumed they had to be valid but now I understand that, sure they are valid in the sense that no one is perfect but it was never about those things.

And everything she says about me seems to apply to her but even more so.

For example she said something about wanting me to "be more of the man" and do yard work and other traditional male chores. We have a small city yard. We pay a guy 30 bucks to cut and trim. This was never an issue before or something she ever said she needed me to do, but now come divorce time it is one of her complaints.

I thought "dang man maybe she's right. I should have done more of that stuff". But then, it just dawned on me-- why was she bringing gender roles into this?

My wife didn't want kids. Doesn't like children. Save for a few recipes she learned, I cooked every meal every night (I like to cook). If I wanted to turn this around on her I could say "You don't like children and don't cook. Are you a "real woman"? (I would never say such a thing)

There are just so many instances here where her criticisms of me seem to be obvious projections of her own faults.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 07/19/21 07:43 PM
Or just "reaching" to find something. The better a spouse you were, the farther they have to reach for some excuse. I'd say if the lawn care is the excuse, you must have been a great spouse!

Congratulations on the townhouse, I know how difficult the real estate market is right now. Hope your closing goes smoothly and you can make it your own when you move in.

You'll continue to feel the emotions off and on in the future, but it's kind of like walking away from a train wreck. There's a certain amount of relief mixed in with everything else.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 09/25/21 06:53 PM
My sister-in-law, one of ExW best friends, originally hooked up with my brother at my Wedding. The rest is history. They now have 2 children together.

She is an interior designer and so she helped me with the layout and furniture for my new place. We are waiting for the furniture to arrive for delivery and set up.

She tells me yesterday that the stuff might arrive next week when she is "out of town".

"Oh, where are you going?"

"Scottsdale. Girl's trip."

The Phoenix Arizona area is where ex wife's probable affair partner lives. I am sure she suggested the city for "girl's trip".

It just really, really bothers me on multiple levels. She is still lying to everyone about the reasons for the divorce. It's her affair, not the fact that I didn't enjoy hiking as much as her and my bathroom wasn't as tidy as she'd prefer.

She still isn't coming clean. She is manipulating everyone and everything to her whims. Initially, the two girlfriends I mentioned that I am closest to, took up for me. She used time, and manipulation (cutting eyes, cutting off friendship until she gets the desired treatment) to manipulate them. Apparently now half the time they are repeating her mantras "Well, you know he didn't like hiking as much as her and oh his bathroom!" Ridiculous!

They aren't going to ask questions? They aren't going to press her on this? They don't even care? These are my friends too. My "family" of friends. My sister-in-law. Also my best friend's wife, who I've known for 25+ years

I shouldn't care and I am fairly well detached, at least in process. I would not WANT my wife back at this point after what was done to me. But this nags pretty deeply.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 09/27/21 03:06 AM
Hello Lee

They are masters of manipulation. Your ExW will expend incredible energies bending those around her to see her side. For those strong enough to see through her narrative, she will push them away. Her psyche cannot handle it if she were wrong. She has to blame so to justify her version of things, as petty and false as they be.

Your mutual friends will get caught up in her net. Do not fight fire with fire. You cannot win that way. You simply cannot go toe to toe with her. Live your life. Let those friends choose their path and find the truth. I know how hard that is.

These people just don’t understand. Consider how mixed up you were during the first while of all this. This is a pretty incredible and hard to believe situation. Most folks have no clue about just how deep the rabbit hole can go. And most don’t want too.

People like easy solutions. Quick fixes. ExW offers a quick easy narrative. And delivers it in a believable manner. Realize she has to, she is driven to.

Divorce is messy and horrible. Plenty of things get split up. Keep your side of the street free from filth and lies. Live your great life. Those that should be in your life will find their way to the truth.

Have faith and remain strong. You will get through this.

D
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 09/27/21 10:41 AM
Hey LC, if it makes you feel better to hear that it is not specific to you, my STBXW has done the same thing. She has lied and manipulated everyone who has chosen to stay in touch with her. And this isn't just her perspective versus mine type thing, these are genuine provable lies. I understand how you must feel, its frustrating and feels so unjust and if you could only they could just see who she is...

But DNJ is spot on, she cannot handle to be wrong, heck I'm sure she has convinced herself of the lies. Justification is the most important goal. Unfortunately some will believe her and fortunately some will not. Be grateful for those who choose the path of truth and fairness.

My experience has played out just as DNJ lays out. Somehow knowing this is just how it goes makes it feel better. And trust me, as someone who tried to fight fire with fire initially, it didn't work. But it is never too late to take the honourable path.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 03:17 PM
Ex wife finally admitted to the affair at the girl's trip. She is living with him in Colorado.

It turns out that one of the girl's had planned the Scottsdale trip back in Jan. it had nothing to do with my wife or her affair skank. The location was just a coincidence. So that made me feel better. It appeared to me that she planned the trip and all the lady friends were headed out to celebrate her affair but that wasn't the case.

Instead, at least two of them that I know, were appalled. The dude she is with is a legit narcissistic predator.

"Sooooo you've just been lying to everyone for the past 9 months" -- apparently she just shrugged that question off with a giggle and a "I just didn't want to be married anymore."

One of the girlfriends used to date this man years ago-- back when it was easier for him to present as "normal" and, knowing him, she knows his compulsive lying ways and she apparently read my ex wife the riot act about it.

It is very strange re-reading some of our text and email exchanges in light of the REAL reason for the divorce, her alcohol fueled affair with a man who lies about his identity and moves across the country in utter disgrace when found out-- she has sadly become a mirror-image of her affair partner.

This person who used to communicate so clearly, and wisely, about everyone else's issues, who had ZERO patience for any infidelity in the lives of our friends and family, has been lying about her own affair for months.

At this point, there is finality. This person is, in a very literal way, totally different. I can't imagine anything she could do or say, no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship. Now I am mostly just sad about the deterioration of this human being armed with the knowledge that this abominable union she is in, is doomed-- the proverbial slow moving train wreck.

I do want to email her and just rip her to utter pieces now that I have nothing holding me back-- but I know how futile and ego driven that is. Still, it seems like she thinks she just played all this perfectly and really "got away" so to speak-- and she did literally "get away".

All of this is just so strange. Does anyone ever REALLY know anyone else.

And on top of that, do we even know ourselves?
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Ex wife finally admitted to the affair at the girl's trip. She is living with him in Colorado.

Affairs are acts of anger -- she has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since she's avoidant, she hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve her resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists.

Once people have affairs, they initially feel guilty and will beat themselves up about it, but eventually self-protection takes over and they refuse to believe that they are bad people.

So if she's not a bad person, then the reason she did a bad thing must have been because you drove her to it, you made her do it, and therefore you are the bad person and she is the victim.

Once she gets there, she'll seek any evidence to reinforce his viewpoint and will reject anything that contradicts it. That's why she will vilify you and nothing you do will be good. You simply can't win because she's an expert at confirmation bias at this point.

Virtually no one gets any real remorse -- the wayward spouse will feel sorry for themselves for "how you made them feel" about the affair, but they won't really feel remorse for their actions because they convince themselves that they were justified and that you were to blame.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Ex wife finally admitted to the affair at the girl's trip. She is living with him in Colorado.

Affairs are acts of anger -- she has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since she's avoidant, she hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve her resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists.

Once people have affairs, they initially feel guilty and will beat themselves up about it, but eventually self-protection takes over and they refuse to believe that they are bad people.

So if she's not a bad person, then the reason she did a bad thing must have been because you drove her to it, you made her do it, and therefore you are the bad person and she is the victim.

Once she gets there, she'll seek any evidence to reinforce his viewpoint and will reject anything that contradicts it. That's why she will vilify you and nothing you do will be good. You simply can't win because she's an expert at confirmation bias at this point.

Virtually no one gets any real remorse -- the wayward spouse will feel sorry for themselves for "how you made them feel" about the affair, but they won't really feel remorse for their actions because they convince themselves that they were justified and that you were to blame.

Right, they literally can't. The cognitive dissonance is too strong. Everything starts from the position of "I am not a bad person" and leads from there, to reiterate what you've stated.

I have read that at some point many MLCers do wake up to the ramifications of what they have done in a visceral way-- sometimes this realization makes them suicidal.

More likely, and sadly, I think she will just devolve further and further into sociopathy-- different rules for her vs. everyone else-- hatchet job morality. And she literally has an experienced master trainer to further teach her the ways.

This is silly but it's literally the path of Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader. Anakin even gives his justifications for his heel turn-- "from my point of view it is the Jedi who are evil" etc.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 05:02 PM
I don't agree that affairs are acts of anger - mostly they are acts of opportunity and selfishness. It feels good so why should they care how it affects anyone else?

AS for the question of "can we ever really know someone?" - well, that's a tough one. Sometimes the WAS is just out of their mind high on infatuation, and like an addict, they can't resist. This may also be more true of those who suffered from depression or who have a past history of addiction. We know that infatuation lights up the brain just like cocaine does.

Sometimes, though, we just missed the signs of our spouse's true self because of the rose colored glasses we were wearing. It took me a while after our separation to put all the pieces together and recognize that my ex's narcissism had always been there, had always been a factor in our relationship, and that, in fact, I probably didn't know the whole truth about how many times he had actually cheated. I loved him and he, like many narcissists, was charming and a facile liar.

It doesn't invalidate the good times we had - there were many - but I can see now that those good times really depended on me doing a lot of twisting like a pretzel to keep him happy. And the signs that he was not good at fidelity were there from the beginning of our relationship - I just convinced myself that it was a one time occurrence, and missed the signs in between that and his affair years later that were indicative of probable other hanky panky going on (Or at least some inappropriate behavior if not outright affairs).

I think the challenge for you (and for many of us) is to take the rose colored glasses off and identify the red flags that we ignored in our spouses, so that we don't make the same mistake again.

And give up the desire for vindication or remorse - karma will take care of them.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by kml
I don't agree that affairs are acts of anger - mostly they are acts of opportunity and selfishness. It feels good so why should they care how it affects anyone else?

In her situation I believe it is all 3.

My wife very likely had symptoms of a wallowing or "covert" narcissist. Not the classic, highly manipulative, bombastic over the top, controlling type.

It's likely something that has been completely unleashed in this midlife scenario.

Everyone has a dark side, some people aren't at all able to keep theirs at bay.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 09:04 PM
Quote
Everyone has a dark side, some people aren't at all able to keep theirs at bay.

I'm not sure that it is true that everyone has a dark side. Pretty sure my sister does NOT have a dark side. However, many people who DO have a dark side are kept in check by societal expectations and spouses like us who help make it easier for them to mask who they are.

In retrospect, what red flags do you think you ignored that might have warned you about this aspect of her?
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/02/21 09:07 PM
Oh yeah - I forgot - you totally missed that she was an alcoholic. That would have been your first clue. What was it about your past that made it seem normal that she drank a bottle of wine a night and more on weekends?
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/03/21 01:09 AM
Hello Lee

Her friends are finding out they’ve been being duped over the last months believing her manipulative lie filled narrative. It will be interesting to see what they do.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
This person who used to communicate so clearly, and wisely, about everyone else's issues, who had ZERO patience for any infidelity in the lives of our friends and family, has been lying about her own affair for months.

Oh yes, they become the opposite of who they once were. It is incredible how driven they are to such transformative feelings. Irrational pressures of past unrealized traumas and pains surge upwards to the fore and consume them.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
At this point, there is finality. This person is, in a very literal way, totally different. I can't imagine anything she could do or say, no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship. Now I am mostly just sad about the deterioration of this human being armed with the knowledge that this abominable union she is in, is doomed-- the proverbial slow moving train wreck.

I do want to email her and just rip her to utter pieces now that I have nothing holding me back-- but I know how futile and ego driven that is. Still, it seems like she thinks she just played all this perfectly and really "got away" so to speak-- and she did literally "get away".

Her life is most likely a slow moving train wreck. Yes, most do feel like they got away with it. It’s the high from their life at the moment. Fate, karma, her comeuppance, it will come. No need to watch or wait for it. Let her exist in her creation. Exist. She’s not living. Believe it.

It’s is very nice to see your wisdom shinning with your awareness of your ego’s want for vengeance. It is most true, ripping into her is futile, ego driven, and very short sighted. You feel good for far shorter a duration than you even imagine. Stick to the better path.

To that end, the better path, some advice. And by the way, like everything, it is for you and your well being. Not to spare XW; that is just a byproduct of the good path.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
…just rip her to utter pieces now that I have nothing holding me back.

You have you holding you back. Your wisdom. Your rational self. Your worth.

You need not saddle yourself with remorse from harsh words towards XW. She won’t listen anyhow, and you will feel bad.

Be better not bitter. Be the best version of yourself. Besides, if you really want revenge - live your great life. Years from now, she will absolutely regret leaving such a man.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
I can't imagine anything she could do or say, no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship.

Lee, uncouple what you said. Uncouple how you are looking at this.

“…no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship.”

Forgive and reconvene are two separate things.

Fine, you do not want to reconvene.

Quote
I can't imagine anything she could do or say, no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship.

However, you need to work towards seeing, imagining, forgiveness. That is completely for you. Forgiveness towards XW is for you!

Keep forgiveness separate. It’s part of that good path. Walk in the light and with Grace. Better not bitter. Compassionate. It is so worth it. And so are you!

Originally Posted by LeeChild
All of this is just so strange. Does anyone ever REALLY know anyone else.

And on top of that, do we even know ourselves?

Truly knowing another. Yes and no.

We have knowledge, history, trust, respect, and faith in them and yet something unknown can rise from the depths and obliterate the one we once knew.

I find it is not so much not knowing them, for we did know who they were. For years they behaved and demonstrated characteristics and qualities that were good. Qualities we loved and cherished.

It is the future we cannot know. We do predict based upon past and historical actions. We have faith and trust in our spouse. Yet, they become this other person. This opposite of our loving spouse.

It’s an interesting question and an even more interesting answer. We can know, and did know, our spouse. We don’t know, or didn’t know, the changeling they turn in to.

Like most things. It depends upon one’s viewpoint.

Do we even know ourselves?

Within the crucible the true test of a person happens. We do learn, find, and know ourselves. A person’s true character, values, and convictions will surface in such extreme conditions.

Do we even know ourselves? Absolutely!

However, it’s what happens next that is the important part. Do we grow and become better with this knowledge and understanding of self? In the quest for that answer, is when one REALLY knows themselves.

Walk in the light. Life journey is what matters, not the destination. How we walk the path is much more important than where we get to.

Knowing, comes from past history. We can only know ourselves from our past. Our future is thankfully unknown. As the future becomes the past, we keep discovering more and more of who we are. Strengthen that which serves. Create that which you aspire to. And alter or discard that which you don’t desire.

We know ourselves from our past. We learn about ourselves with every single passing present moment.

Become.

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/03/21 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I can't imagine anything she could do or say, no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship.

Lee, uncouple what you said. Uncouple how you are looking at this.

“…no scenario in which I would want to forgive and reconvene the relationship.”

Forgive and reconvene are two separate things.

Fine, you do not want to reconvene.

This requires more explanation.

To offer legitimate forgiveness, I have to trust and believe what she says. If she came to me wanting forgiveness and reconciliation some time soon, this would only be because her affair has fallen apart and she wants right back in a comfortable situation with me, the sucker.

That is why I say that, as of right now, I will not forgive. I do not believe that forgiveness would be what she REALLY wants, it would only be empty, manipulative words.

Forgiveness requires repentance. She needs to truly regret. If, at some point in the future she really wants my forgiveness, she has it. She has it, really, even before she asks in the case of genuine contrition.

But that is not who she is right now. She may want forgiveness in the "I am sorry for what my actions have caused, however I am still glad I did this, and if I had to do it all over again, I would do it again." -- type of way.

I won't grant her that sort of forgiveness.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/03/21 03:45 PM
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself - to let go. You don't even have to say anything to her. It's just about understanding she's a flawed person who is struggling and letting go of the resentment.

I wouldn't have me ex back on a platter, but I work on seeing the ways in which he struggled (depression, possible mild bipolar, family of origin issues). It doesn't excuse his infidelity but seeing where it came from makes it easier for me to let go of the resentment.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/03/21 05:36 PM
Hi Lee

Actually, legitimate forgiveness is when one finds forgiveness regardless of the transgressor’s actions or inactions.

There is nothing she can do that would demand forgiveness. Or be deserving of it. Yet, if you can find forgiveness anyhow, you will be much better for it.

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/19/21 06:52 PM
Now that I know for a fact that she was having an affair during the entire divorce saga, this colors the entire back and forth communication on text and email between us much differently!

Just going back and reading (don't worry I've only done this a couple of times) the exchanges knowing what I know now-- it's insane!

In late June she texted me:

"If I had any reservations before, your behaviour during all of this has cemented it."

She abandoned me, emotionally abused me, lied to me, her friends and family for 9 months. Cheated on my with a known con man who has lied about 75% of his entire identity to multiple women, Brought this man in our home in the guise of "a friend" and attempted to get me to go to bed so that she could spend private time with him in our home.

It is 100% clear now that I was, in her eyes, irrelevant and subhuman during this entire ordeal. I meant absolutely nothing at all-- just an obstacle
Posted By: LH19 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/19/21 07:07 PM
Welcome to the wonderful world of being a LBS.

As you leave the forest you will start to see the trees. Be thankful that since you have no children you never have to speak to her again.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 11/20/21 04:18 PM
Good Morning Lee

(((Hug)))

Sorry man. It know it hurts.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
It is 100% clear now that I was, in her eyes, irrelevant and subhuman during this entire ordeal. I meant absolutely nothing at all-- just an obstacle

That is her view. One she needed to fabricate and perpetuate.

Do not make it part of yourself. It is her view, not your’s! Nor mine!

Her indifference and treatment towards you speaks about her. Not you! That’s a difficult poison not to drink. And in truth we all drink it. The really path is transmuting the poison we’ve already ingested.

Realize she absolutely needs to make you into the bad guy. Her comment “If I had any reservations before, your behaviour during all of this has cemented it” is her projecting her faults upon you. Her crafting a reality that unjustly justifies what she’s done. Her mind is a confused mess. She is driven by her emotions.

Again, her actions are her’s. She is accountable not you.

Affairs are staggeringly common. As is blaming their loving partner. Do not read too much into her behaviour or communication. Her poisonous words are just that - words. Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.

As you continue discovering just how messed up this all was, be gentle on yourself. Define LeeChild as LeeChild truly is and not as your XW says. Let go. Rise above. And become the man you are to become.

There is a wonderful opportunity amidst all this horrible situation. With time and effort you can realize some incredible truths. Keep walking the good path, one small step at a time.

The forest will be seen as trees in time. And you will see beyond the forest, to the meadow, the ocean, the mountains, and the vast and beautiful life in front of you.

One step at a time my friend.

D
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 08:15 PM
Should I have just left well enough alone? Maybe.

But Christmas was more difficult than I anticipated. I did message a quick "Happy Thanksgiving" to her sister over that Holiday and that sort of opened up lines of communication with her.

so before Christmas, prior to ex-wife coming in town to visit her family, I messaged her sister just laying out what really happened during the past 9-10 months.

She gets back with me, and she had no idea about any of it. She didn't know ex wife was seeing this guy, living with him in Colorado. She thought was she just living there alone.

So I made it all clear. Yes, that's what's going on, and in fact she brought this clown in our home, with me there, and tried to get me to go to bed early so she could spend time with him-- such a huge personal violation. That's my home.

So I get an email from my ex-wife saying "STOP" -- that her sister is "too nice" to tell me to stop emailing her, that the communication is unwanted etc. etc.

The I notice that she is deleting pictures of us on Instagram (since Iam tagged in them) and can watch her image count go down. I know exactly what happened-- her sister brought all this up, my ex wife got angry about it, got all cranked up on wine and started deleting pictures of us. ;D ;D

A few days later her sister emails me, telling me that she did not read my emails to Amanda, but she did mention affair partner and Amanda didn't admit to anything but just got really angry. She said she did not tell her the communication was unwanted and she will email with whoever she pleases. ;D ;D

I am glad that I emailed her sister. There is nothing wrong with making the truth known. Ex wife wants to control the entire narrative and ease this clown into her family eventually. She thinks time is the key to making all this work, that with time family and friends will accept all this and she can bend the story to her will. I am sure she will argue that their relationship happened organically after our divorce and that she did nothing wrong.

It is clear now that her main focus was individually getting with each friend and family member to attempt to control her made up version of the narrative-- anytime I spoke to anyone and simply, calmly told the truth she'd get really angry.

It does her friends and family no justice to believe her lies. I feel like I at least laid the truth out there so they know who they are dealing with moving forward.

All this is just insane. I keep forgetting that she attempted to frame with with the cops due to all the other wild $h!te that's happened!
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 09:43 PM
Okay -
so I want you to ask yourself - what did this accomplish? For you?

I understand the temptation - you want the truth to be out there, you want to be vindicated.

But unless you expect to continue a close relationship with her family or friends (word of caution - blood almost always wins out) what exactly did this do for you besides letting you vent?

You've made her into your enemy - I'm hoping everything is already completely settled financially and legally with your divorce and she doesn't have any power to cause you trouble? Otherwise you just stirred up a big hornets nest.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 09:59 PM
The divorce is over, has been since June 30th. Nothing more to do.

She made an enemy of me when she violated me in our home, bringing this skank sociopath into our marital space while I was there, so I'm really not concerned with her wishes especially since I am doing nothing but telling the truth. I spent months treating her with nothing but respect, validating her feelings, attempting to get to the bottom of the issues and she did nothing but lie to me and everyone.

She gets to cheat and lie. That is her right. I get to tell people what happened, that is my right.

Her family needs to know exactly who they are dealing with here if they are to help her at some point in the future-- and of course she needs help. She's a mentally ill alcoholic who is living with a legitimate sociopath half way across the country.

Knowing exactly how far she's spiraled and how much she is lying right now is of benefit to them I think. They truly need to know where she is mentally right now. This wasn't to sling mud.

This is a person who was very well respected and honest-- it took me a long time to understand that I was dealing with a different person and had I not told her family, it would have likely taken them years.

*I did not mean to leave her name in the post, but I am unable to edit so if mods could please help!
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 10:16 PM
Ok - so you've given them that information. I recommend you stay out of it now. No need to continue communicating with her sister unless it's just pleasantries that have nothing to do with your ex. Her family will deal - or more likely won't deal - with her situation as they see fit.

I know it's tempting, but it's out of your hands now. Your focus should be on moving forward with your life, creating new social connections, building your new future.
Posted By: LeeChild Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 10:22 PM
There's nothing else to say to her anyways. If she needs any particular info from me I will respond. Otherwise-- no need. They know now and the burden is off me.

It's amazing how a person can keep everything from EVERYBODY.

It's lonely being the only person who knows the truth.
Posted By: kml Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/11/22 10:56 PM
Don't you have friends of your own that you had before and after your marriage? Don't they know the truth?
Posted By: BL42 Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/12/22 12:55 AM
LeeChild,

Just read through your thread...

You still have a lot of anger and resentment built up around your ExW. That is completely understandable. Trust me, I get it. She broke her vows. She betrayed you. She lied to you. She rejected you for another man whom you know is of low integrity. You're hurt. You want her to be hurt for all the pain she's causing you. You want her friends and family to know the truth about her bad actions. Trust me, I get it.

The thing is...none of that anger or revenge is going to help you heal and move forward. Processing it, letting go of it, and focusing on your life going forward is the best way to feel better. Easier said than done. I certainly still struggle with emotions such as anger and thoughts of revenge and karma myself. Trust me, I get it!

Still...anything you can do to process that anger and redirect your focus from her to you if going to pay dividends in the future.

You mentioned regular IC. Hope you're continuing with it!

You mentioned losing 25lbs and hitting the gym regularly. Hope you're continuing with it!

One area I don't see anything about is your GAL/social life. Are you going out with friends and meeting new ones? Are you starting new hobbies, playing sports, enrolling in classes? What are you doing to get out and about and enjoy life? Maybe a guys trip to some cool city you've never visited?

Hang in there...everyone here understands what it's like, even if the situations differ a bit. We're all rooting for you. You will get through it.
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/12/22 01:15 AM
Hello LC

Originally Posted by LeeChild
*I did not mean to leave her name in the post, but I am unable to edit so if mods could please help!

I reported this for you.

There is a notification icon to the right side of the time on each post’s title bar. It is the shape of a flag. Press that icon on the post you’d like to report to a moderator and a new window will open where you can type your message. Be it to report improper content or just a mechanism to notify a moderator of something relating to that particular post.

Hope that helps.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/12/22 02:17 AM
Hello LC

Originally Posted by LeeChild
Should I have just left well enough alone? Maybe.

Probably yes.

It is no surprise that her family did not know the real story. Did not know the sordid details. She spun her narrative very convincingly. Remember, she has to. She is driven to. And she has to convince herself most of all.

I get how knowing the real events, as you saw them, and watching her life just going along with friends and family all blissfully unaware of what transpired, is really aggravating.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
She made an enemy of me when she violated me in our home, bringing this skank sociopath into our marital space while I was there, so I'm really not concerned with her wishes especially since I am doing nothing but telling the truth.

I hear you man. Totally get it.

Let it loose. Here! Right here! Vent away!

Originally Posted by LeeChild
I spent months treating her with nothing but respect, validating her feelings, attempting to get to the bottom of the issues and she did nothing but lie to me and everyone.

Yep. She did.

You were/are the big and better person.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
She gets to cheat and lie. That is her right. I get to tell people what happened, that is my right.

Well, not really.

Quote
I get to tell people what happened, that is my right choice.

It’s more a choice. And, I know you can choose better rather than bitter.

Like kml stated, blood vs water. This is her family. There are going to choose her. They are going to accept her. Sorry man, it hurts. I know.

Now it is quite likely that her family knows more than they are letting on. I mean really, do you think they’d want to wave around that particular dirty laundry? It’s pretty amazing what folks will ignore and pretend all is fine.

Anyhow, you’ve ensured they now know. If they choose to ignore or not follow up or not ask questions - so be it. Let it go.

I’m sure I’ve told you before, I will provide suggestion and advice to the best of my abilities and it will always be for you. Letting go, is for you.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
It's amazing how a person can keep everything from EVERYBODY.

It only seems like everybody. Believe me, folks know. Have faith, truth will alway win out.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
It's lonely being the only person who knows the truth.

If you consider your support network I’m sure you’ll find people who know the facts.


I empathize and understand. Christmas was more difficult than anticipated. And that probably stirred up your hurt, anger, sorrow, sad, etc. more than usual.

The path to acceptance has many twists and turns. And lots to learn to let go of.

Anger is one of the stages of grief. It’s perfectly normal to be angry. To feel angry.

Find ways to let that go. To work though those feelings. And in a healthy safe way. Not lashing out to her or her family or friends or a like. As BL was mentioning, process that anger and take the focus off her and her shenanigans.

Sweat it out. Run. Jog. Go to the gym. Dig the garden. Shovel snow. (Not sure your climate, probably got snow right now. smile ) Work that anger right out of you. Drain it with each drop of sweat.

Physical action influences thoughts and emotions and beliefs. And performing some physical activity - by the way it doesn’t have to be so extreme, just going for a walk is good too - uncouples the feeling from its triggering event.

If you feel sad or hurt or angry from say a certain thing. Even if you don’t quite realize what that thing is, is ok. When you start to feel that way, go do something more fun and take your focus off your feelings. Trust this, your subconscious will still be processing away. And by the way, it is your subconscious that needed to figure this out, and that happens best when your conscious mind is calm and not reinforcing certain ideas and feelings. As in, your focus is elsewhere.

A certain phrase is most true, answer will best reveal themselves when you are calm and still and at peace.

Originally Posted by LeeChild
This is a person who was very well respected and honest-- it took me a long time to understand that I was dealing with a different person and had I not told her family, it would have likely taken them years.

It pretty incredible, the fragility of the mind. Isn’t it?

My XW was also a much respected and honest women. She tossed aside her four children, moved in with her OM, destroyed our 26 year marriage, all on Thanksgiving right after the meal. It’s was literally 3 hours from happy to h3ll.

The MLCer is a different person. And most folks have zero experience with mid life crisis. I never had any experience or knowledge of it. All I had was the Hollywood version. Guy feels old, gets young gal, gets red sports car. The ugly truth is so much more horrible and insidious. The torment and pain these lost souls endure, I’d not wish that upon anyone! Just imagine what pain it would take to do what they do. To run so.

You realize the depth of her suffering. Her mental anguish, torment, and just how far the cheese has slipped off the cracker. It took you a long time to see and accept. It’s going to take her family a long time. Longer actually. Aside from herself, you knew her best. It was most difficult for her to hide from you.

And, her family and friends were not as hurt as you. Her actions didn’t try to destroy them. You were her target. They do not know MLC. Most people do not. Heck, even those LBS who have been around such lost spouses even question MLC. It is simply that incredibly unbelievable - right until it isn’t.

Stay strong. You’re doing fine.

Focus back on to you, and keep moving forward.

D
Posted By: OwnIt Re: My MLC Wife story -- no kids - 01/12/22 02:35 AM
Hi Lee,

I'm sorry that you are hurting and having so much emotion over this. I used to believe that I was just an emotional person reacting to external stimuli and that I had no control over those emotions. I have come to learn that my emotions are only biological responses to my own thoughts. Which means I am the one who kept myself in hurt, anger, frustration, anxiety, etc. I have learned lots of ways to retrain my brain not to go down those cheeseless tunnels and no longer live with my amygdala on fire from all the fight or flight response going on. Let me tell you, it is very peaceful compared to what I felt before.

Has someone ever tried to talk you out of your feelings? Did it work? Probably not. That's the thing about cognitive dissonance, you are very likely only proving to her (and likely her family) how justified she was in her actions. We don't persuade people through these sorts of titillating details, we only show them that we are the kind of people who speak them. And, as KML said, the majority of these folks have families that go right along with them, even when they know all about the affair, even when they abandon kids, and do worse things. Knowing is likely not going to change how they feel about her, but it may change how they feel about you. Does it affect you in some way if the family believes her story? I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that the families probably believe this stuff initially, but then begin to see all the little pieces that just don't add up.

Having these statements and emotions be reported back to her likely makes her feel good (who doesn't like to think of themselves as so wonderful that people just can't let go). It shows her that you are not detached. That you are not moving on with your life. Is that what you want her to believe? Do you want to be the guy who is out there telling everyone her business (and yours by extension)? Forget about her. Who do you want to be? While we all hurt and can make poor decisions from that hurt (and I sure made my share), what matters to me now is how I see myself. The choice is obviously yours and you can do what you believe you need to. But often writing a nice letter and then burning it is equally satisfying and allows you to preserve your dignity and not have regret down the line when you gain more control over your emotions.

Oft repeated, but worth revisiting, forgiveness is for you, not for her. It is not the same thing as accepting what she did or validating it. It simply means giving her a notice to vacate from your head. It allows all those thoughts and emotions to be put to rest. It allows you to focus your time and attention on the person who matters the most--YOU.
© DivorceBusting.com