Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Gerda Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 02/16/21 02:08 AM
Previously, on "As The Gerda Turns,"

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2909359#Post2909359

And Now --

From The Snow Queen, Chapter One

Right then! Time to start. When we’re at the end of the story we’ll know more than we do now, for it has to do with an evil ogre! one of the very worst – it was ‘the devil’! One day he was in a really good mood, for he had made a mirror that had the property of reducing everything good and beautiful that was reflected in it into practically nothing, but whatever was fit for nothing and looked bad grew more pronounced and became even worse. The loveliest landscapes looked like boiled spinach in it, and the best of people turned ugly or stood on their heads with no stomach, their faces became so distorted that they were unrecognisable.... It was most amusing, ‘the devil’ said...

Everyone who went to an ogre school – for he ran such a place – said far and wide that a miracle had taken place; now for the first time one could really see, they felt, what the world and people really looked like. They ran around with the mirror, and finally there wasn’t a country or a single person that had not been distorted in it. Now they wanted to fly up to Heaven itself to make fun of the angels and the ‘Good Lord’. The higher they flew with the mirror, the louder it laughed, they could hardly hold onto it; higher and higher they flew, closer to God and the angels; then the mirror shook so violently as it grinned that it shot out of their hands and crashed down onto the ground, where it shattered into hundreds of millions, billions and even more pieces, and that was precisely what caused even more misfortune than before, for some of the pieces were scarcely as big as a grain of sand, and these flew all over the world, and wherever they got into people’s eyes, they stayed put and then those people saw everything wrong, or only had eyes for what was bad about something, for every speck of the mirror had retained the same power as the whole mirror had possessed; some people even got a tiny mirror- shard in their heart, and that was quite horrible – the heart became like a lump of ice. ...


When I became Gerda, I thought I would be walking barefoot through the snow all the way to the Snow Queen so that I could rescue H from his prison, and his tears would wash the devil's shard of glass from his eyes and his heart and he would be able to see again.

I couldn't see this story any other way. This story was so true, so beautiful and so clearly the story of my own life that the story of my marriage would have to have the same ending. It couldn't be written any other way. And I thought that God wanted me to do that, and that he had to restore my marriage because marriage was sacred and restoration was obviously God's plan for all marriages.

I felt this way even after my H filed.

And it was only once the D got underway that I had to begin questioning it. Because all that my H had done before that seemed misguided, MLCish, but ultimately something that I could get past once he was "himself" again. But everything he did for the D went far beyond adultery or lying or abandoning us. It was clear that he wanted to destroy me and humiliate me and leave me on the side of the road, hopefully dead. And I began to realize that H had changed, but that maybe, just maybe, the 2x4's that chased me off these boards in the first year were true. Maybe this side of H had always been there too. Maybe there was a reason that I had never felt that he loved me as I had heard/seen a man can love a woman. Maybe my own childhood traumas had made it impossible for me to see that I ended up with exactly what had been so familiar to me since I was little, growing up in a house full of mental illness and even MLC.

I'm in year three of this never-ending D now, and maybe I had to go through it in order to see my life before H (long before), during H, and one day, after H, clearly. Maybe it had to become this clear that H would do anything to destroy me to see that there were other ways to stand for your marriage. One is just, standing for your kids. Realizing, for example, that letting them witness an abuser abusing you over and over and over is not "holding the family together."

For a long time I thought that something was wrong with me that I couldn't detach or, once I could see that I actually had detached, that I couldn't stop my heart from racing all the time.

Stander, many of us have bona fide PTSD. I think I only started understanding that recently. My brain has been changed, and I am not going to fix that by reading lots of posts about how to detach. Neither are you. It's not all in your head. Some of it is in your brain and your body. You have survived a trauma. And if you had a live-in MLCer, that trauma went on day after day after day.

We are trying to heal from a trauma while taking care of kids alone -- or, perhaps worse, with the MLCer -- while starting a new life while finding the self we had forgotten while trying to broker a deal with a crazy person while spending the last money we have on legal fees while trying to hold on to our vision of truth that had been gaslighted while trying to help our kids heal while going to court again and again and again while battling cancer or various other stress-related illnesses while hatching chicks or baking or looking at the trees in the moonlight or seeing friends or bike riding or seizing any joy we can in between the waves of terror or anguish while our in-laws throw us away like a worn out sneaker while the business we shared with the MLCer goes under or gets sold or we try to hold on to it or the house we loved gets foreclosed or we try to hold on to it while our kids ask us why or don't ask us anything but suffer silently or eat too much or shoplift or run away or refuse to go to school while we are beating ourselves up for not being able to keep a clear head when doing one or some or all of these things to stay afloat and live authentic lives and the only place we feel understood is an on-line forum where we can't even know each other's names let alone ever have a coffee together.

Every year I give up the boards for Lent, as well as some other things. And the first days are painful and disorienting. And then I learn to trust the silence and face my fears and sink to the bottom and look up at the light -- or as Sage said, Look up at where you want to go..... And I pray a lot -- and I pray for all of you. XO
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 02/17/21 12:55 AM
Hello Gerda

That is a very good reflection upon your journey.

My dear friend, I am so very proud of you - always have been! You have done so well, amidst some truly crazy harsh times.

I am going to miss you and our chats. I hope you have a peaceful and meaningful time, and will see you in 40 days.

Love

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 02/17/21 05:23 AM
Couldn't have done it without ya, DnJ -- and the green cape. Stay tuned for the adventures of the never-installed heating system, post-Easter of course. ((DnJ))) and (((all y'all))))
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 05:27 AM
Gerda’s Guide to the Early Stages

In the early days, even if you find yourself lurking around these parts, you secretly believe that your situation is different. Your H or W is not like these other maniacs you read about on the boards. Your love was better, your marriage stronger, your spouse had a more solid core. You read about the trajectory these MLC stories took, but you do not believe that this will happen to you because of the many differences in your story, your spouse, you.

As a result, you don’t follow the advice you read about here. It is so drastic! And sometimes it’s so rude! It just isn’t Christian. It doesn’t look good for the children to see you ignore/cut off their dad/mom like that. You don’t want your in-laws to think badly of you. You don’t want to do something that would “ruin” the chance of restoration. You can see that some of the people posting here make a lot of mistakes and got themselves into second relationships that don’t sound good. You don’t want to separate your finances or lay claim to your house or your kids or squirrel away any of your savings because you don’t want a divorce, and those things are part of divorcing, not marriage. You don’t want to stop doing his laundry because it’s the only way you can show love. And you have read that this whole thing should only take about two years. You can do two years.

Listen to me.

It is not going to take two years.

And you have to separate your finances and get custody of your children right now. Before you even finish reading this.

Listen to me. I am speaking to you from your future. You can watch your own future play out if you read my posts from 2014 until now.

And I don’t mean your spouse won’t come out of this. I don’t mean your marriage won’t be restored. It might. And I hope it will.

But if you don’t step away, if you don’t separate all your finances, protect your children and protect your house, your spouse might damage things so badly that you won’t want him/her back and there won't be much to come back to.

If your husband was burning down the house, would you just stand there watching? Would you hand him a match? What if your kids were inside?

If your wife was shooting heroin at the kitchen table, would you let the kids watch?

The kindest thing you can do for your spouse right now is limit the amount of damage s/he can do to your house, your finances and your kids. If you want, tell him you’ll be waiting on the other side. If you want, tell her you’re not planning to “move on” but you have to protect the family until she can be part of decisions that are best for your kids.

But before you do that, take half of everything and put it somewhere he can’t touch. And start living a separate financial life and as much of a separate family life as you can.

Don’t notice what she’s doing with her half. You don’t want to know.

But keep records of anything that dissipates your asset or impacts your kids. Write the date each time. You might be doing it for a few years and you’ll forget if you don't write it down. You might need the records to prove something when he tries to take everything.

Was he great at fixing stuff around the house? Don't ask him for that anymore. Hire someone or watch a YT video and do it yourself. Is she an expert on health insurance and you need to know where to find someone? Call a broker. Don't call her. Are you afraid you'll get cheated at the auto mechanic? Call your brother to go with you. Or get cheated, it's okay to pay too much in order to avoid asking your spouse. Do your own laundry, take out your own trash, parent your kids and love them double to make up for how your spouse can’t love. Get to church/synagogue/temple/mosque. If you don't go, go anyway.

Stop thinking about what your spouse should do if he was a decent man or has to do if she is a real mother. They can’t and they won’t.

Does your spouse want to tell you about the OP? Don’t listen. Leave the room. Say, “That’s between you and God/the universe, do not speak about that to me.”

Did your spouse act nice today? Don’t read into it.

Want to share that pie? OK. Don’t want to share that pie? Don’t.

Feel like ironing his shirts? Don’t.

Do you miss him and just want to hear his voice? Have a dance party with your kids and blast the music at top volume.

Do you just want to tell her that one thing so that she’ll finally understand what she’s doing to you? She won’t hear you. She can't even see you, the actual you. Go mow your elderly neighbor’s lawn.

Do you want to finally say exactly what you are thinking and really make him understand? Go take a hike alone. Stand under some trees and scream what you wanted to say. Or write it all down and bury the letter in the backyard.

Want to hide in your room because he’s drunk and sleeping on the couch every night? Borrow $1000 from each of your cousins and offer him an advance on his equity to move out. Did he leave his stuff? Pack it up and put it in storage and pay the first two months and let him know he has two months to get it or lose it. Get some $5 oops paint from your local hardware store and some cool thrift store houseware finds and redo the living room the way you want it. Read that book on Swedish Death Cleaning and death clean your house. Plant a fruit tree out front. Pick blueberries with the kids and make them some blueberry pancakes and laugh and watch Malcolm in the Middle at the dinner table sometimes.

Own a business together? Sell it and start another. Or get another partner and buy him out.

Is she ready to sign a divorce agreement that seems reasonable to a lawyer you trust? Sign it. Quick.

Want him/her to come back? He might. He might not. Go and find a life. I don't mean to date. You don't have to. In fact, you probably shouldn't for quite a while. Focus on your kids. But hang out with friends whenever you can. Remember what you wanted to be before you met and work on that again. Or think of a new dream and get moving. If things get stable at home, become a foster parent or mentor a troubled teen or volunteer in a nursing home or a prison. Read about what's happening in a war-torn country or a refugee camp and do something about it. Go for bike rides everyday. Raise chickens. Write your novel. Take singing lessons. Start growing food. Make peace with your mom. Read all afternoon every afternoon. Bake pies. Learn a new language and start planning your trip to the plae where they speak it. Turn one of your bedrooms into an AirB. Turn your garden shed into a she shed.

Create meaning in your life. See how beautiful life is, what a miracle that you are here to live it.

Listen to me. I know you very well. I was you. Don't be me, don't follow my path. Just trust me. Do these things I am telling you even if you don't want to, even if you are sure I am wrong.

There will always be room for him in your life if he comes back and you’re still willing by then. Set up the boundaries you need to provide a good life for your children with or without her. Protect what you two built. He is a forest fire. She is a tsunami. They will destroy anything in their path for a while. Protect it all so that if he wakes up, if she finally faces her wound, there will be something left to return to. And if he doesn’t, if she doesn’t, you’ll already be living, my dear, you'll already be living!




Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 11:39 AM
Sweet Gerda,

What a pleasure to see you post back here!

I must honestly say that I sincerely missed you, your advice and your honesty, even though we have only known each other for a short time.

I don't have much time, busy with the teenagers,(you know...) but I couldn't help but say that the words you just shared are very wise.

I myself am now on the 2 year timemark since BD and try to follow pretty much the above so it feels good to know that I am on the right track.

I'm not there yet, but try to follow your advice as best I can.

Only therefore, thank you xxx
Posted By: job Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 12:57 PM
Gerda,

A great posting and every new poster should read it. Wise words that have been stated over and over again by all of us. Unfortunately, no matter how many times we state them, each and every poster has to go through some of trauma in order to get to the other side and protect themselves. At first, new posters may think we are holding grudges and want to get even, however, as they travel the path, they will eventually understand more and more of why we advise them to do certain things.

Each person's path is different, they timeline is different, but at the end of their respective days, they will eventually see more clearly and have a better understanding of the advice that we give here.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 01:16 PM
Good Morning Gerda

An eloquent post. A wise post. Such hard earned wisdom.

Yes, the tsunami will destroy anything in its path; best to protect one’s self and family, and stand clear as much as possible. And of course - be alive. Live full. Wittiness the blessings and miracles that surround us.

Healing takes time. For our spouse and for us. Our paths will falter, it’s how wisdom is gained. Dusting off, standing back up, and continuing forward is how wisdom is earned.

2014 to present. I will acknowledge the cautionary side of your tale, as you have illustrated. Please see the inspirational side of your tale as well, as I see it to be. What you have been through, the knowledge gained and shared, the adversity overcome, and the person you’ve become. No small feat. A worthy path my dear friend. Very worth the time invested!

D
Posted By: cardinal Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 03:45 PM
Such a beautiful, honest, empathetic and hopeful post, Gerda! I imagine I would have read it differently depending on where I was in my journey of the last two years, but each time I would take something different from it. I used to want to rush to action or understanding or acceptance, but really I’ve just had to trust the stories and advice here and have faith that it all happens in time. One foot in front of the other, guided by values and not feelings if possible, and it will all come. And while you’ve been away I’ve been writing every weekend, have been curious to see the latest transformation my novel has undergone since I’ve been away from it for two years. In that time it has evolved too. I hope you’ve had a good break!
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 04:06 PM
Completely agree with it all Gerda!! Thanks for taking the time to write it. I was that person you describe but lucky for me, tried really hard to follow the advice of the people on here...even though I wasn’t always the best at it. It’s been two and a half years since BD and I have grown so much. I can barely remember the heartbroken, panic stricken person that I was back then. I am in a good place and working on living my best life. I wouldn’t go back even if I could. I didn’t save my marriage but I absolutely saved myself. Thanks to you and the other people on here who have stuck around to pass on their experiences and the kind of wisdom that only comes from having been there themselves. Much love to you!! Hope your situation has gotten better. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: Traveler Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/24/21 05:50 PM
Gerda, wonderful post! I'm going to link to it in the DB Quotes thread. (:

Thank you for sharing from the heart. It's inspirational, even for those of us a bit further along.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 04/25/21 01:05 PM
Darling girl, I've been wondering where you are, and here you come, hitting it out of the park. Amen. Ditto. Absolute truth in your words.

Will the newbies believe you? Probably not, but some may and therein lies their hope, their salvation and the key to their peace of mind and sanity through this quagmire of doubt, hurt, abuse and horror.

Listen to Gerda. Or don't. But if you do, you'll be in a better place when the dust finally settles, and so will your children.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/01/21 05:25 PM
Thank you so much, everyone, for the flood of love and commiseration!

That was really touching to hear from you all - Eagle, DnJ, DejaVu, Cardinal, CW, Job and even beautiful bttrfly. Your words hit me right in the heart but in a good way. And so impressed with all that you are doing -- surviving, thriving, writing novels, loving your kids, looking to the future without worrying so much about the time we have "wasted." And thanks, DnJ, for reminding me of how far I came, you are always the great supporter and friend.

Job, your praise is high praise, since you have "seen it all" more than any of us. If my post became a stickie, considering my journey, it would almost like winning an Oscar!

In my time away, the details of all our stories became smaller and the bigger truths loomed large. I came back to see so many posters going over the little details like I always did, not able to see that none of it mattered because their spouses were at least temporarily insane, at best like talking dolls. I looked back on my path and my past and everything got clearer. I always wondered what it would have taken to help 2014 Gerda to get more quickly to where I am now. I know what kept me from surrendering, from the terrifying freefall. And now I can see the outcome on my children of letting them witness so much abuse for so long -- and even the outcome on my was-band of enabling his behavior, of not fighting for myself in the first year of the divorce. These things are clearly bad, there is no question in what I am witnessing. I remember thinking in the early days, "Well, God is my lawyer," but I forgot that God had already provided me with all the gifts I needed to do battle and I didn't fight. I let so many things happen that caused me to still be stuck in the pit of divorce now. Now I know the rule, "Raise it or waive it," in court. You have to raise everything so it's on the table, or they will rip you to shreds in there.

So I know what is keeping those others from doing all the things I said to do in that post, and I see the same tropes in their posts as my posts for the first few years. Like everything, it is a matter of faith. Faith in the witnesses. I came to Christian faith that way -- trusting the teller of a tale helps you believe in the tale. Actually I remember once, before I came to faith, when my H was starting to change but not fully, I was having some dark moment (probably BECAUSE he had started to change) and I asked him how he could know that God was real. He said, "Well, even if you just read the bible or any of the stories of the saints, you can be sure that those people would love you and want only to help you in any way they could. And that kind of love IS God, so that is enough for me to have faith." I never forgot that, and when I did read Paul I knew I could trust him, as a start, or when I read Father Arseny or CS Lewis. I knew they loved me, even without knowing me, so I trusted them. I was the same when I had cancer -- I trusted my doctor so much that I just went to the doctor he told me to go to, and I trusted her so much I did whatever she said. I didn't even know what stage of cancer I had, and I tried not to read too much. I just asked myself if I could trust those people and if so, I didn't have to work so hard making any choices but just trustfully do what they told me I must do. I still remember going under the day of my surgery -- arms outstretched, total trust in my surgeon, praying as I counted backwards, total surrender to God, and the white light and the peace the covered me. My was-band was texting the other woman while I lay on the table, calling her his "secret other wife," I found out the next day, but I still think of that moment as one of the happiest moments of my life. The happiness of trust and faith.

We are all witnesses too. Anything we go through equips us to help another go through it, as long as we don't get bitter or become controlled by rage or fear.

Or when we become controlled by rage or fear, we don't act on it.

Or when we act on it, we forgive ourselves for suffering those wounds, and help someone else not act on it.

I still don't know anything and I am still as anxious and arrogant and desperate to control my situation as I ever was. But I trust myself as a witness and I know I am always motivated by love, and in that way I can always be sure I am nothing like H. I can't ever imagine a man loving me, I mean for real, but I think I am starting to understand that I am worthy of my own love and protection. I never protected myself before. I didn't think I deserved it. And that made my children suffer more than they had to, and taught my son the wrong way to treat us. And it enabled my was-band to undertake a campaign of terror that shows no sign of letting up.

Have not updated my sitch for a while and maybe will soon. It's not better at all. In fact it's worse. But I am clearer now on what to do. And I love you all!
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/02/21 01:00 AM
Darling G,
I meant to reply to your last post (it hit me so deeply, I have been marinating on it for weeks), and I don’t have much time to post right now, but just wanted to say thank you, you are amazing and I can’t wait to have a deeper discourse on all of this soon.
In the meantime, I value your words and perspective so much. My admiration is deep.
Xxxxx
S
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/12/21 07:29 PM
Sage-ertawnia of the Upper Reaches of Good Womanhood -- Your little note wedged its way into my psyche all week. It seemed mesmerizing to read that I did something of value, as ridiculous as that may sound. Which brings us back to... how we don't even realize how deep was the MLCer's reach, how much we take for granted that lie now woven into our spirits that we are not really worth anything to anyone. I am not even aware of that lie all the time, it must have just been my background noise -- but realized that if I was reading your note (and the others here on my thread!) sixty-two thousand times with disbelief, it points not only to your kindess and friendship but how long ago it was that we felt loved or liked and how deeply we believed the MLCer's lie about our worth.

LBS's, be alert! Most of what you are worrying about is based on a lie about who you are, what you did and what a marriage is supposed to be! It will be a veil over everything you do and think until you can start to see your own value and to see what is happening more clearly.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/13/21 05:54 AM
Thank you Gerda for this whole thread and the other posters who contributed. I am inspired by your strength and as a newer LBS, your words are like gold to me. Yes, at first, I was taken aback and very defensive on my actions. But even if you feel many of us LBS's don't listen, there are many of us that do hear you...even if we don't want to believe what we are being told. I've had periods of time where I have marinated on different thoughts and couldn't really write here. Stuck. Processing. Searching my soul. Trying to absorb the knowledge, the experience, the path that many of you have taken before me. Maybe I'm strong like some say and I saw the better path quicker than most. But to all, it's in their own time...not everyone can face struggles so fiercely...some take time to gather strength and acceptance before they can even think about the thoughts that are uncomfortable.

I'm grateful though that many of you show so much patience and gentle guidance. It's true. Going through this journey does create PSTD. And the fact that its not just one event makes it harder to process...living day in and day out trying to move forward, change things, accept things or let things go. All while more bomb drops, or terrible situations happen. I feel like it's almost multiple episodes of trauma...of which many are not strong enough to handle and shut down. It's overwhelming at times...

But the stories, the support, the advice, the experience, the gentle 2x4s, all of it...are gifts to us. Golden gifts. From strangers who are friends...and a lifeline to many of us. I am so sorry for your difficult journey. I wish I could hug you. But I can tell you that I am eternally grateful that I have you all to listen to and guide me. That we are not alone and that WE will all be okay. I know I couldn't be on this journey without everyone here. I hope watching us take your advice and move through our journeys faster/better helps you to be stronger in your journey as it continues. We are learning from you. You are GOLDEN. Thank you! (((Gerda)))

El
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/13/21 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gerda


LBS's, be alert! Most of what you are worrying about is based on a lie about who you are, what you did and what a marriage is supposed to be! It will be a veil over everything you do and think until you can start to see your own value and to see what is happening more clearly.

PREACH IT SISTAH!

In my case the lies lodged into my body and soul until I became in part who I was accused of being... externally, not internally. The schism between the two has caused more pain and anguish than the original lies.

What do I mean by externally? I weigh more than I ever have, much of it put on in the past 4 years due to extreme stress. My house looks like a war zone. The way I carry my self - where I once stepped lightly and with confidence and joy I find myself treading heavily, with a stance like I'm carrying the world on my shoulders. Is it all a response to my exh's lies? No, putting it all on his door would be unjust. But his lies are the foundation, and that foundation must be blasted to smithereens.

A male friend recently told me that he's seen glimpses of the vibrant woman I used to be, and he prays that I will let her come forward once more. She's in there, just beaten down.

xoxo
Posted By: may22 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/20/21 07:18 AM
Just a quick note from me, Gerda, to say how grateful I am for your words. You are incredible.

xx May
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/20/21 11:40 AM
Indeed Gerda, as May stated. You are incredible.

These words are the reason why we, "not so newer and newer LBS'es dealing with MLC'ers", are making quicker steps in de right direction.

Please continu to give this advice, it helps many people out there, even the ones who are not (yet) posting.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/30/21 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
In my case the lies lodged into my body and soul until I became in part who I was accused of being... externally, not internally. The schism between the two has caused more pain and anguish than the original lies....

A male friend recently told me that he's seen glimpses of the vibrant woman I used to be, and he prays that I will let her come forward once more. She's in there, just beaten down.



If it's any comfort, bttrfly, I would never have thought this post came from you. In my mind you are butterfly-like -- full of light and clarity, just sometimes wings weighed down by a heavy rain.

In my novel there is a character who is an LBS, and she has a long monologue where she says something just like this, that after a while, blooming out of your desperation and despair, you become the very repulsive being he thought you were, you become the hate and the lies.

I think it's not only an understandable outcome -- it might even be developmentally appropriate, like when we had tails in the womb. We are just being born now, or soon, and look how long it took us to agree to that rebirth.

These comments from you and Elbereth and May and Eagle were AMAZING to ol' Gerderina, true sustenance. I sometimes opened up the forum just to read your words again, ladies. Thank you.

I have so much to report, so so so much. But drowning as usual in work and tasks, never even enough time to sleep.

But one big thing is that D12 cut off contact with H. Of her own volition entirely. She came home from their last visitation totally distraught, could not stop crying. She was grinding her fist into her face saying, "I JUST WANT TO PUNCH MYSELF IN THE FACE WHEN I'M WITH HIM." And even said she wanted to kill herself when she was with him. I asked why she wanted to hurt herself if she was angry with him, and she said she just wanted to not feel how bad it felt. I told her that I could tell him she wouldn't see him but she had to be ready to confirm this when he asked her and to confirm it if a social worker asked her. She said yes, and then we did it. Three days of completely insane texts followed, including from his mother telling her that she would not see her unless it was with H (keep in mind she has seen neither grandchild in I think three years and they were the center of her world before BD) and saying that D12 was cruel to her father and was clearly just repeating my words because she said to my MIL that her dad was "not well mentally" and that it was too overwhelming to be with him. (And of course some doozies to me from H.) Finally D12 agreed to block them. She told me that as bad as it felt to be rejected by her own grandmother, it was better than how she felt when she was with H. Since then I have noticed a real shift in D12. She is sad and emotional but it's like a huge weight was lifted -- or not a weight, more like a vise that was twisting her into knots and pretzels. She is more... normal seeming now.

D12 has been telling me various things that H told her to swear she would not tell me. And one was that he is opening a restaurant with the same friend, godfather to my kids, who paid for his divorce lawyer for a while (until I wrote to his wife and that ended that!). I was really looking forward to the idea that once he got his equity and we were divorced, he would leave my city. Nope. He is opening a restaurant 5 min walk from my home.

And I have never said before what our family business was, but I need to say it now, just so you can understand how deep this weird replay goes -- it was a restaurant.

He ran our restaurant into the ground and had an affair with another woman, his "soulmate," and abandoned our restaurant and family and our home and pursued his dream of finally leaving our city. Now he is opening a restaurant on the shoulders of a "true friend" who can finance it (which is what I did when he wanted to open ours, via loans) literally five blocks away from where he drove ours into the ground before abandoning it. He even tried to hire some of our old cooks, who I considered brothers. And somehow this hurt me more than many things -- these two cooks' wives left them at the same time as my BD. We cried on each others' shoulders many times and they hated H and saw literally in front of all our eyes what he did to our business and to me and our kids. They filled in where he couldn't -- e.g., helping me run the place without him while he took money from the register and drank cases of wine for free. They helped with birthday parties, they built a bike on my son's birthday, they watched movies and helped with lemonade stands for my daughter, they made breakfast lunch and dinner for the kids and gave them presents on birthdays and Christmas. After the restaurant life was over (documented in other threads!), we were always planning to hang out and then Covid happened. And these two guys are going to work for H again now.

That was hard for me to take, honestly. Because H now I understand to be mentally ill plus MLC. His replay is on repeat and each repeat gets more horrific. I have accepted that he is not what I thought, and I can see that clearly now, looking back. But these two other guys I thought were so good, and they suffered just what I suffered. We were so close. So that feels like a real betrayal.

But mostly just my focus in my posts now is to provide some insight to you new folks and to point out patterns that you will encounter if your MLCer follows a similar path. I did everything to save our business, everything to save our marriage, everything to just wait it out. And after eight years, his replay is starting over again, just with our business instead of with another woman.

There is nothing you can do to stop this MLC train. Stop trying. It's on its own track. Just step aside, lest you get hit by that freight train barreling forward. Like a train, he won't even notice you lying with broken legs on the side of the track. Just get out of the way and start walking into the beautiful forest or mountain or town right there where you found yourself. Find out what's out there and how and where you might end up and on which adventure. You might hear his train in the distance but just ignore it and keep walking.

OK, much more to update regarding the latest motions and court appearances but it's almost 2 am and many miles of work to go before I sleep before I sleep.

XO to all my DB beloveds....

- Gerda
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/30/21 02:37 PM
Good Morning Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
There is nothing you can do to stop this MLC train. Stop trying. It's on its own track. Just step aside, lest you get hit by that freight train barreling forward.

100% agree.

One must step aside.


I am proud of D12 (and you tell her that if you wish). What she did, standing up for herself. So excellent! Remarkable! Good for her.

Unfortunately it took quite a sum of emotional torment and disrespect from Dad for her to finally have had enough. Her explosion outwards is so much healthier and better than holding it in and burying it.

At the moment she feels this way, and we know feelings are fleeting - unless they are reinforced. As she calms and finds her center, her intellect will take over and her values. She is thirsty to know she has done right - ensure she is well quenched. Now, more than ever, she is looking to you as her positive role model. Dad, having been rejected, is her negative role model.

It is little wonder that D12 has done this. Adolescents, are becoming young adults, are thinking, feeling, and believing for themselves. Part of that is the rebellious stage, which last around 25 years. I’m kidding, it only lasts 24. Lol

Rebellious, growing up, standing up to disrespect - all good normal healthy things. She is just starting her path to adulthood, and has taken quite a good step, IMHO.

It is wonderful to read how D12 seems more normal now. An emotionally unhealthy person can cause one to twist and pretzel into such a tight knot. Nice to see D12’s knot has loosened.

I empathize with your feelings of betray regarding your previous cooks and “brothers”. How could they go over to the dark side? Right?

Remember this is not about you. Set your ego aside. You are causing yourself to feel betrayed. (((Hugs)))

It’s been eight long years since their wives left and your BD. Much has happened in your life and their’s. They might need the work. H is probably spinning quite a different narrative. Eight years is a long time, and these guys haven’t been living it; they had their own paths to find. I would lean towards they do not realize how far gone and how much a train wreck H is. They may soon find out. Or maybe not. Maybe H will make a go of the restaurant.

It is interesting how H has queued up the restaurant again. Using his “true friend” as a financial backer. These MLCers are trapped in time, repeating their loops and recreating their events; all while running from their buried torment and pain. H has his friends, even his Mom, encouraging his narrative and reality. We know there is bucket loads of trauma from H’s mom. And she lashed out towards D12; grandma lashing out at her granddaughter to defend her son; which illustrates just where MIL is actually at and how far gone she is as well. H is getting ample reinforcement of his narrative.

MLCers will, are driven to, find people sympathetic to their cause and view of things. Anyone who stands up, or sees differently, is thrown aside. I suspect if D12 will remain strong, her Dad will sharply cease contact. He is blind to her views and feelings, and at the moment stuck repeating his pain.

My kids all suffered experienced similar rebuke from their Mom. And her family/friends went silent towards them. It’s been three and a half years since any of my kids’ (XW’s side) aunts, uncles, great aunts/uncles, cousins, and so on have reached out or returned any contact. Shrug. Blood vs water.

Notice the strike through in the word suffered. I admit, I added that for illustration. At first, suffered would be apt. However, looking back, experienced is all it really is and was. One only suffers that which they allow. Be the captain of your soul. Steer yourself towards strong moral headings and values in life. (Some other encouragement I’d pass on to D12 directly if I could. It did wonders for my kids.)

It is wonderful to hear from you my dear friend. I am so interested in how the court and business side of things is going, and completely understand how difficult it is to find the time to post. Please get some good sleeps (when you can smile ).

D
Posted By: kml Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/30/21 03:40 PM
I’m sorry your D12 has been experiencing this pain, but glad that she can see that her dad is mentally ill. It’s surprising that others around him cannot see it. Narcissists and sociopaths can be very good at charming people though.

As for the cooks - this pandemic has wreaked havoc on the industry, they may be desperate for work. I wouldn’t judge them too harshly. Your ex’s backer may be offering them money they can’t refuse.

I have one son (of three, all young adults) who hasn’t spoken to his dad in almost three years. Although I don’t think it’s a good thing to be estranged in general, as I think that’s a weight of its own to carry. But in his case I couldn’t argue with his reasons for cutting off contact. On Mother’s Day recently all three discussed their father’s personality issues and how it has affected them.

The hard part here is, that if you do the work of giving D12 the context for why she feels like “punching herself” around him, you might be at risk for being blamed for parental alienation. (Which can be a real thing but is often misused by manipulative fathers in cases like this). So it might be good to find an individual therapist for her who can help her sort this out. And/or, if her father is an alcoholic as you seem to imply, an Alanon group for children of alcoholics might benefit her. I’m glad she’s seeming happier without the stress of seeing him right now.
Posted By: cardinal Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/04/21 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by Gerda
In my novel there is a character who is an LBS, and she has a long monologue where she says something just like this, that after a while, blooming out of your desperation and despair, you become the very repulsive being he thought you were, you become the hate and the lies.

I think it's not only an understandable outcome -- it might even be developmentally appropriate, like when we had tails in the womb. We are just being born now, or soon, and look how long it took us to agree to that rebirth.


This is beautiful, Gerda. It's more hopeful to think of myself as transforming or going through a kind of metamorphosis. No one stage I feel stuck in or one way I see myself is forever; it's one stop on the way to becoming.

It hurts me to think of your D12 saying being around your H makes her want to hurt herself. (((D12 and Gerda))) I feel some relief myself that she's stepping out of H's orbit. She's recognizing that it is harming her, and she's putting words to the feelings she has. How brave of her to voice these things and take steps to protect herself. She does have a good role model there.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/17/21 05:00 PM
DnJ, Kml and Cardinal -- Thanks for these excellent message, love the reflections and insight and just hearing from you, my friends. It means a lot in this lonely journey! Things with the Was-band are astonishingly stuck, no matter how many offers I make to chisel. His L started to threaten me with the usual bullying e-mails blaming me for D not wanting to see H and saying that withholding our D12 means they will tell the court and withhold child support -- BUT HE DOESN'T PAY CHILD SUPPORT!

So I filed a petition in Family Court to change custody. I am theoretically not supposed to go that route til divorce is done but I have a hearing for child support this summer finally (long queue from covid, I filed almost a year ago for that!) so I got on the queue for this too. I wanted to wait on this to settle divorce but I have to protect D12. My sweet little innocent girl, sweet to everyone and who loves God since she was very little (used to say as she was swinging high on the swing that she was going to touch God with her toes) now says, "Don't call him my dad. He is the f-ing devil," but she says the full f word. Once she opened the door to that boundary with him, it's a flood of anger and clarity.

I have so much more to tell you all but no time. I started a flip project with a friend and it's so fun but many things going wrong, and I am still working many teaching jobs at the moment (til I can make enough in flipping to phase out other work) so I am drowning even more than usual in work, and then this endless stupidity with the D, so so so pointless. It's all just because he won't accept a payment plan, wants to show us all that he is the boss by insisting on payment in full or forcing us to sell. So I am stuck in this purgatory til the economy improves enough for me to refi or til he accepts the payment plan or is ordered to (I have an open motion asking for that). Sadly this custody issue may give me a little leverage -- remember in the early days, he asked for 100% custody and dropped it to visitation only when I asked for guardian -- but I am trying to be clear about what kids need and not weaponize this custody sitch in any way. Hopefully somehow he will settle and we can deal with custody as a change in family court instead of more endless D and more fees for his evil lawyer.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/19/21 01:37 PM
Good Morning Gerda

It was quite amazing to watch my children mad at their Mom. My youngest son, S17 at the time, was so angry, all the time. His emotions would bubble up and at times boil over, lashing out at his siblings or me. I preferred he directed his misplaced anger my way, but I had no more control of that than anything else. Only gentle guidance and calm explanations. (Eventually. Lol)

D12 is rightly angry with her Dad. Her swearing illustrates the raw expression of her feelings. Swearing is rather uncultured and counterproductive, it serves to reinforce more than to let go and accept - a necessary step by the way so no worries. Once having expressed her feelings that way for a while she will calm somewhat and be open to gentle guidance.

Lead her to the realization that her feelings are from self. Dad is a trigger not the source. True, Dad “deserves” such anger but doesn’t “deserve” it. (Purposefully vague btw to highlight just how counterintuitive that is at first)

D12’s anger is part of her grief. Part of her loss. The loss of her Dad, her father figure. Recall how she was in love with him before. She was blind to what was going on. She has grown up a bit and some clarity has taken hold, and as such a loss of innocence and purity towards Dad.

Gentle guidance. Demonstrate and lead daughter it is still proper and ok to respect Dad. You don’t have to agree with his choice, just respect his right to make it. It’s ok to love her Dad, AND not like him (more not liking his behaviour actually instead of not liking the person). Her feelings are her’s, and come from herself, and are influenced (somewhat controlled) by herself.

Of course she is 12 and there are some pretty emotionally mature items of the list. It will take time for her to find her path. That’s good. Let her be a kid and slowly grow into adolescence and adulthood. There is plenty of age appropriate guidance you can provide as she continues to grow and develop. Besides, this is not all the time, there are games, movies, and all the other fun things of being a kid. Learning how to let go her angry feelings, seeing and learning the temporariness of feelings, will allow her to fully embrace and enjoy the good times. As I said, my S17 was angry all the time. Learning how to let go and set that aside once and a while was among some of the first steps.

It is a difficult path through the anger, the betrayal, and the loss for these kids. I’ve successfully traversed the fire swamp for myself and with my four children. And yes, I’ve gotten burnt and hurt along the way. Fire swamp - it’s looks like such a perilous journey from the starting side. And such a worthy trek with such worthy rewards - D12’s, son’s, and your healthy whole selves.

Be their beacon and role model. Compassion and forgiveness is light in the distance which we are heading towards. It’s always about the journey, not the destination.

D
Posted By: SBJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 07/07/21 06:33 PM
Hey Gerda...thanks for the father's day poem. I found it on Gordie's thread. I hope and pray that all is well. Not sure why I picked today to do the check in, but I guess I did. God Bless you!!!
Posted By: cardinal Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 07/08/21 04:12 AM
Thinking of you, Gerda, and hoping more things are going right with the house project and in other areas too!
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 07/14/21 03:27 AM
DnJ, Cardinal -- and SBJ! -- thank you for the words, thoughts, wishes, inspiration.

Somehow, DnJ, I am always fortified when you mention your dark moments, I have said that before -- it just always seems so peaceful and pleasant out there among the trees and the tall grass, and your kids all sound so perfect, that I sometimes forget you went through the same griefs and didn't just jump out of a package marked, "DETACHED AND HEALED."

I keep thinking I will update and then I don't. It is overwhelming to even imagine catching up on my sitch. The cottage project is quite astonishing. I am hoping to make a YT channel for it so I have been recording some of the beginning. The before and after will be unbelievable, that is for sure.

I guess I can't really catch things up here, it's too much. So I will just give two sordid details --

First -- Once again, H has filed a fraudulent tax return, not claiming any of our rental income and claiming S16 as his dependent. I still have never received a penny of child support or any assistance of any kind from H, and he has not seen S16 since May, 2019. I received notices from my state and IRS that all of my refunds have been denied because someone else claimed one of my dependents. And I will not be getting the child tax credit payments because of it -- or maybe H will get some of the payments? I have filed motions to get full custody and child support and to have these tax returns corrected but there are three open motions that were never decided and it just never ends.

Second -- My D12, who now only refers to her dad by his first name, unblocked him yesterday, I guess she gets curious and misses him sometimes -- and received a text announcing that he had moved TWO BLOCKS AWAY and "spends his days looking for her on the street." REPLAY IS REAL, FOLKS. This man ran our business into the ground and left us for another married woman with two kids and after complaining for years that he hated our neighborhood moved six times in the last two years, three of those times to other states. Now he is opening the same business 6 blocks away and moved two blocks away, still while trying to sell our home.

It's all so textbook that it doesn't seem real. But it is real.

I used to live in fear of hearing from him or seeing him. Now I don't even think about the fact that he lives somewhere very close to me, we probably go to the same deli. It's like there is a wall around my heart and it's impenetrable, at least in the context of H. I am just me. I am just Gerda now.

Sometimes I remember we are to pray for our enemies, and I try to pray for H. I get confused because the truth is that if I am honest with myself, I don't want his salvation, I don't want him to get better or for anyone to forgive anyone. I want him to disappear and not to have to know about it either way. I don't want him to get better or be redeemed because it will somehow undermine what I had to do to myself, to change, so that I could heal and move forward. I had to stop believing in him, I had to look honestly at our life together and see clearly who he was all along, and how that made him capable of what he has done for the past seven years but especially the last three. It's hard to explain how this fits with my faith, with my certainty that there is a light all around us and a life beyond this one. But I guess I am just being honest. I do forgive H. But mostly because I don't think he has ever been capable of love.

I wonder sometimes how such a person could ever have a chance of being Good. He had a terrible childhood and was abused, and he clearly has NPD or some other Cluster C disorder. What chance did he ever have? How could he ever choose goodness and subdue his own will when he is mentally incapable of choosing anything but himself? I found a letter he wrote my son where he quoted this Rudyard Kipling poem, mainly these lines.

If
BY RUDYARD KIPLING

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
...
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
....
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!


He truly believes he is taking the righteous path, he believes that this will one day be clear to his children that he did the right thing though he has lost both of them and that they will see him as a hero. What chance does such a man have to ever choose goodness?
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 07/14/21 11:50 AM
Good Morning Gerda

Jump out of a package marked, "DETACHED AND HEALED." Lol. No, it took a bit of time. And I got tangled in the packaging every now and then while crawling out. smile

I am happy to hear the cottage project is progressing well. I’m sure you are doing a great job and yes its transformation is astonishing. Cottage and Gerda’s. (((Hug)))

It is pretty amazing to witness replay in such stark clarity like your H (or my XW). It’s difficult to believe that it is actually happening. I had to use the word dumbfounded to describe my incredulous eyes; “I can’t believe it” kept me not believing it.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Sometimes I remember we are to pray for our enemies, and I try to pray for H. I get confused because the truth is that if I am honest with myself, I don't want his salvation, I don't want him to get better or for anyone to forgive anyone. I want him to disappear and not to have to know about it either way. I don't want him to get better or be redeemed because it will somehow undermine what I had to do to myself, to change, so that I could heal and move forward. I had to stop believing in him…

You are doing fine my friend. I do recall this particular bump in the path. Yes, I too felt that her redemption somehow undermines my redemption. Faith my dear friend - it can be both.

It’s hard to let go that ego, revenge, that wanting to show them they’re wrong. Difficult steps along our own path of salvation and healing.

Originally Posted by Gerda
He truly believes he is taking the righteous path, he believes that this will one day be clear to his children that he did the right thing though he has lost both of them and that they will see him as a hero. What chance does such a man have to ever choose goodness?

He has opportunity. He has choice. He is broken. Let go and let God. It’s all one can truly do.

You’ve hit it right smack on target. He believes his righteous path and narrative. Even though reality shows him different. He will ignore and explain away such nuisance feedback and pressures; court ordered child support, children who don’t ever call, bills, can’t hold down a job, etc.; from his crafted fantasy.

You see his confusion. You understand. He is a hurt and lost soul. There is no need to hold him unforgiven. Be strong Gerda, stand for you, trust in God, and forgive the sin.

D
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 07/15/21 01:05 PM
ugh. just ugh. i'm so sorry you are STILL dealing with this crap. I'm interested in your cottage project - - that sounds like a boat load of fun! Keeping you and yours in my prayers Gerda ... and shaking my head over the insanity you have to deal with on the regular. xoxoxo
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/22/21 03:21 PM
I keep avoiding updating because it will take so long to explain.

But I will just say this -- last week the judge rejected my motion attempting to force H to abide by the order of two years ago that allowed me to buy him out an appraised price. This order was supposed to last for six months of marketing our place and end with a buy out. During those six months, I had agreed to delay child support and to pay him advances on his equity. For six months. Now it's two years later and no end in sight. So I filed a motion asking for us to use the order as it was intended, to bring this to a close, and to start at least interim child support, since I have now gone (officially) without child support for three years. And to force him to correct his tax returns because his fraudulent returns have eaten my refund every year and he is now collecting the child tax credit for our son, who he hasn't seen or supported in two years.

(He hasn't supported them ever but I mean officially.)

He had filed a motion for contempt, I forget why. This was his fourth contempt motion.

She denied them both. I think she is trying to teach us a lesson to force me to sell our house or to force him to abide by the order, but in effect she only enforced the half of the order that benefited him and left me, the single mother, solely responsible for all child expenses, mortgage, and advance equity payments for this total complete deadbeat dad.

I don't even think it's legal.

I tried family court and they were very sympathetic but said I can't get their help til my divorce is final.

I keep sending offers to settle. And now am subpeoning all his records and his business partner, filing an appeal of her decision, etc. etc, just trying everything.

He keeps spending his future equity on this lawyer who he doesn't actually pay, just on credit, for this never-ending nightmare instead of just agreeing that an appraisal determines the value of a buy out and ending this.

Now neither kid will see him.

And there is no way I can feed my kids and pay the mortgage if I have to keep paying him advances on equity. So I have to now violate her ruling.

I feel like I'm trapped in Egypt, sometime around the 8th plague.

Compared to what women are suffering in Afghanistan, Haiti, pretty much everywhere, my problems seem ridiculous.

But all of this leads to nothing, it is pointless, there is no magical outcome for him but his lawyer does not explain that eventually he will have to give me that child support, the IRS will catch up with him, he will have to get his half of the house (or maybe less than half if I go to trial and succeed). But we could end it all now and move on with our lives, and he'd get MORE money that way.

For myself I feel almost the same anxiety I did before, but no feelings about him (see my post on DNJ's thread about that), just a desperation to be free of this vipers and be able to think clearly, on my own, and be who I was meant to be in this world.

I am working on a story that uses some of my divorce story. I really hope I can publish it.

My lesson for the newbies reading this --

Settle your divorce as quickly as possible. You can stand for your marriage after you are divorced. Or not. But you can do nothing if you become mired in a divorce from a narcissist, and your MLCer might be one of those. Get your finances settled and then you can GAL from here to eternity, standing or not standing, but free.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/22/21 07:57 PM
Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
My lesson for the newbies reading this --

Settle your divorce as quickly as possible. You can stand for your marriage after you are divorced. Or not. But you can do nothing if you become mired in a divorce from a narcissist, and your MLCer might be one of those. Get your finances settled and then you can GAL from here to eternity, standing or not standing, but free.

Amen!

So very true.

D
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/22/21 09:56 PM
Comparison is the thief of joy.

Someone told me that, and I agreed, but it's a two way street.

Yes, woman are going through nightmares in Afghanistan and Haiti, but your nightmare is real and scary and awful. I'm so sorry you are dealing with such a terrible, drawn-out D.

Love your advice. Settle it quickly, if possible.

Excited for you for your flipping opportunity and hope it gets you ahead. Hang in there!! ((((gerda))))
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/23/21 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Gerda
My lesson for the newbies reading this --

Settle your divorce as quickly as possible. You can stand for your marriage after you are divorced. Or not. But you can do nothing if you become mired in a divorce from a narcissist, and your MLCer might be one of those. Get your finances settled and then you can GAL from here to eternity, standing or not standing, but free.
Amen
Sing it Sister
Posted By: OwnIt Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/23/21 08:54 PM
Gerda,

I'm sorry you are still dealing with this. I did find (my opinion only) that the attorneys I dealt with in family law, on my side and his, were pretty incompetent (with his being absolutely the worst). My best friend, a family law attorney in another state, has told me that she sees the same poor lawyering where she is. Where I was the judges rotate in, often having no family law experience. As a result, I decided to cut my losses and get out rather than deal with the crapshoot and expense that going forward represented. I had to give up my expectation of what I thought a fair result was and walk away from something I believed was a necessity in the interest of being done. It all worked out in the end. The assets I did leave with have shot through the roof, I've had a very good year at work, and knowing that I am done for good has brought me more peace than I could ever explain.

My house now, half the size of my last, by far the most modest I've owned in a long, long time, is my favorite house I've ever lived in. In the face of the fear I felt at going forward, my best friend reminded me that I have always succeeded, supported myself, and made things happen and that nothing has changed that. She asked me to bet on my own future rather than tie myself in any way to his. I do wonder what might happen for you if you could let go of your need to keep the house, let it be sold, give him his half so you could get this done and finally move forward without that dead body shackled to you. If you have never read McTeague (the best novel ever written), then please do. When you come to the part in the desert, give it some thought.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/24/21 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by bttrfly
ugh. just ugh. i'm so sorry you are STILL dealing with this crap. I'm interested in your cottage project - - that sounds like a boat load of fun! Keeping you and yours in my prayers Gerda ... and shaking my head over the insanity you have to deal with on the regular. xoxoxo

bttrfly, i love it when you peek in on me.

and yes please come on by and check out the cottage project! We can do some drilling and some leveling and some painting and framing and restore our WOMAN POWER confidence! it's quite the ramshackle renovation but soooo fun and if it ever gets done it is going to be the cutest place and for a while at least will be much nicer than my place next door though my spot is much more amazing, set off way off the road and looking at the mountain across the little valley that is my hill.

ideally I should be up here working on it all the time, it's really really hard to find workers so the guy I have is working after his other job and it's sloooooooow going but I LOVE it so much. I can't be up here supervising or doing anything very often but I figure I am setting up the life I want, which is rentals and flipping as my day job, so I have to start somewhere. I did this project with my closest friend as the investor, so in some ways that was easier and in some ways it is more complex, but I am learning a lot.

I've been starting to write down the things I need to do to get stable financially, etc., if I was finally free of the D. I am stretched way too thin but I am so close to being able to tip that scale, I really want to try to set up this life that I want, esp as my kids are growing up fast and soon the nest will be me only....

bttrfly, how are you? Are you finding your core again? your beauty and strength and joy?
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/24/21 05:49 AM
97Hope and OwnIt and DnJ and bttrfly -- Thank you for stopping by and for the thoughts --

Own, interesting what you say about matrimonial lawyers. I just thought it was because I couldn’t hire the $600/hour ones. The ones I met through the domestic violence center seemed good but owning a house disqualified me from using them.

I don't know that book, which is a phrase I rarely utter about anything 19th century! I will check it out!

Do you know the book, He Knew He Was Right by Anthony Trollope? I tried to reread it a few years back, thinking I'd get insight into my H. It was so triggering and upsetting I couldn't, despite finding it so entertaining years ago.

I hear what you are saying but believe it or not, I am trying to do that. This is a frying pan-fire situation. It’s going to be h$ll if I keep going and it’s going to be h$ll if I agree to sell with him. But if I do the buy out and end up having to sell to pay him what I owe him, I’ll be doing it alone!

I already experienced him trying to sell the place while we lived here and while I continued to run the rentals here. It was h$ll beyond h$ll. H was on a RAMPAGE of nasty underhanded evilness throughout, and he never even actually listed it. He just kept bringing fake "pocket deals" to court from supposed buyers who had never seen the place and were offering almost double the appraised value -- and demanding that I match these offers. Meanwhile with the brokers in and out and the drama, my son totally regressed to a scary mental health place after 2 years of us working so hard to improve his mental health, my daughter too. In a way, Covid saved us because all of that ground to a halt.

I am not trying to keep it because I think I can’t make a nice home elsewhere. I don't make enough to pay for my kids’ housing and H won’t give me any child support or help with the mortgage. But the rents cover the mortgage. We'll lose so much in taxes, brokers, debt payments, etc. and then splitting what's left with the was-band, that there won't even be enough left to buy a 1-bedroom here, and rents here are crazy high. So if I do sell it, I will have to leave my city and friends and church and neighbors and all of that, and my kids too -- and leave their schools. I'm just trying to keep us here where I know I have a way to pay for housing til college.

The order requires him to accept a buy out at appraised value. He was re-ordered to get the appraisal done but he won’t do that and refuses to accept the appraisal I got. I offered to pay him 50K now (family has offered to loan me that til refi) and the rest 90 days after we get the divorce decree. No go.

I think he does not want this to end. Financially he is shooting himself in his MLC foot. Via a buy out, he will earn like 35% more and can stop paying his lawyer 50K a year that he doesn't have. But then there will be no more drama, no narcissistic supply. He’ll have to admit to his friends and OW that the place he sold his soul and his family for is not worth nearly what he thought.

So I am working hard on securing a refi while also going on the offensive in the D. Trying everything I can think of.

And tonight I am away from all that in my mountain cabin, watching how fast the moon crosses the sky and listening to all the insects singing into the stars.....

XO from Gerda
Posted By: may22 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/25/21 08:05 PM
Gerda, just a note to say it makes me really happy to think about you ensconced in your mountain cabin, watching the stars, able to find a reservoir of coziness and peace in the midst of all the crazy BS your H is pulling.

Sending hugs and good vibes.

xoxo May
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/26/21 10:18 PM
A serious OMG moment without any other updates or thanks or comments to all you lovely and beloved stoppers-by --

H's father died of Covid on Monday. Unvaxxed, anti-science.

My MIL was vaxxed.

He died in great suffering and she was not with him. He was crying, this tough man, through the mask, crying her name on the phone. She is devasted. 55 years together, immigrants who saw it all.

I saw my MIL for the first time in years today. She was weeping the whole time and me 50% of the time.

I was at the cabin and my son was on his own. He had to go to H's restaurant and see H for the first time in over two years and MIL for the first time in more than three years. He didn't even tell me. When I got back, he told me and said he wanted to tell me in person and that he decided to do it because he felt it would be selfish not to go. He even called his therapist before he went.

He got his learners permit on Monday. So I let him drive afterwards.

This is a short update.

So proud of my son.

Families need to be there when grief hits. And this whole D nightmare is making it very hard to navigate. But maybe it will somehow help my kids at least reconnect with their grandmother.

More soon and love to you all.
Posted By: kml Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/26/21 10:58 PM
UGH. These tragedies are far too common. Fox News is killing people with their anti-science nonsense. 1,000 people a day are still dying of Covid in the US and almost all of those are preventable tragedies if only people would get vaccinated.

My niece is an ECMO nurse in Portland, OR and she had a case recently, husband and wife went to Vegas for the weekend. Came back with Covid. Wife was vaccinated, recuperated at home with a mild case. Husband was unvaccinated, 42, doing poorly on the ventilator but no ECMO machines were available because they were all being used already. frown Just too many tragedies.

Sounds like your son was very mature about the whole thing. I'm so sorry for your MIL - it must be especially awful to be a spouse who probably was trying to get him to get the vaccine, and then to experience this terrible loss.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/27/21 12:17 AM
i am so sorry for your family's loss and so proud of your son xoxoxo God bless!
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/27/21 01:13 AM
My condolences to your family.

And Gerda, your son is a fine young man. Well done!
Posted By: job Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/27/21 12:39 PM
My condolences to your family. I think your son is a very wise young man and did the right thing. You've taught him well.
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/27/21 02:51 PM
Sweet Gerda, my sincere condolences for the loss of your FIL.
Important in periods of grief to be there for each other indeed.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/29/21 04:55 PM
Thank you, everyone, for the kind messages and empathy.

Another "side effect" of the MLC divorce disease -- no one except all of you thinks I would care about my FIL dying, and dying with so much suffering, or that I would grieve. I knew him since 1995. He was a really hard man and not a kind man, except to animals and his wife at times, but I had my way with him and he made me laugh, and he was someone I knew very well, knew all his stories, have photos of him as a child and an adult in my home, and would have taken care of in his old age. I have been crying a lot about him and for him and praying for him and didn't file things I needed for court out of respect, but then on Friday, four days after his death, H's lawyer sent some message about scheduling trial. Relentless.

Another thing happened, and I wanted to hear your comments about it -- those of you who have been here a while may remember that I had to have the house appraised in August, 2019, by a court-ordered appraiser who was extremely expensive and who did not measure the house, overvaluing it by an insane amount as a result and causing many of our troubles of today -- but even way overvalued H did not accept the appraisal and that's why we are still here. But anyway -- we were not allowed to be present for the appraisal and there was a huge drama when the appraiser showed up and I had to find a neighbor to take her through the house etc. I looked out my window beforehand and H was standing outside with some guy in linen pants who was obviously a broker. This guy pretended he was just a friend representing H, and would be coming inside. There was a scene on the street when I came out and he was chatting up the appraiser and I said, "You are a broker, get out," she had to call the court to ask, etc., huge drama ending with him admitting he was a broker and leaving. Then H tried to hire him as the broker and I said no and then found a year-old letter from this broker where he gave the same overvalue of our house to try to get H to be his client, H had sent it to me to try to force me to sell the house before he had filed for D. So I told the court he couldn't use that broker. So H submits the name of another broker, let's call her Julie, supposedly from another firm, and I dig up the year-old letter that was from this broker and his partner, JULIE! They were LYING again and again to try to get this guy, let's call him, Cockroach, in on the listing! I called Cockroach's boss and complained about the whole thing and even his boss seemed shocked at the story. This was all in fall of 2019. THe only broker more unethical was the one H hired after that, but he was such a low-life and outright stupid, he also wasn't effective at selling the place.

Cut to last night, S16 comes home from a night out with friends and asks me if I know Cockroach, because he is very good friends with Cockroach's son!!!! In fact, this kid had offered to help get S16 a job with his uncle, who is Cockroach's brother. S16 just found out about the connection it turned out that Cockroach had just taken his son and another good friend of S16's to H's restaurant, and they were like, hey, I know a kid with that last name, and H had offered Cockroach Jr a job!!!! S16 was humiliated that they would know about our family's problems, our financial problems, that the kid might work for H, etc., etc. He wanted to know what I would do if Cockroach's son invited S16 on a trip and I had to talk to the parents, and I assured him I would act normal and either say nothing or just say, "Hey, we have a weird connection but I'm glad our sons are friends." It was quite hard to navigate and hard to assuage S16's fears, because the truth is that the drama will probably continue, H probably LOVES that he can sneak his way into S16's life and get control of his feelings in that way. S16 asked me many questions that I did answer but which revealed some of this dark story. I told him that he had nothing to be embarrassed about, and that Cockroach might not tell the full story to his son because he would have to admit to unethical dealings. But they probably have a whole story about me too.

I live in a huge city with thousands upon thousands of brokers and thousand upon thousands of restaurants. WHY?!!! This is crazier than a Dickens story!

Comments please. All of y'all!
Posted By: OwnIt Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/30/21 03:16 PM
Gerda,

I see you've asked for comments, but I'm not entirely certain about what, so I'll make a couple of observations and draw from my own experience with these things.

Yes, it is a small world. I've had those uncanny encounters many times. I'd just assure your son that adults tend to navigate these issues and he shouldn't concern himself with it or let it affect his relationship with his friend.

I noted with my X that any time I told him what I wanted, it was almost a guarantee I would not get it. He had a need to hurt me and take from me the things I valued most. I assume this is his own issue and I try not to take it personally. What I will tell you, is that I left without something I thought I needed, only to find out what an albatross it would have been for me. I had to let go of many of my own perceived needs to get it done, be divorced, and finally have some peace. While I thought for a very long time he was the one who couldn't finalize it and couldn't let go, maybe it was me. When I did let go of care about what I kept and did not keep, it ended.

I want to be honest with you, and this is largely based on my own experience. I have a hard time picturing how you will ever keep that house. It sounds like the place where all of your assets are tied up. You guys can't work together to come up with a plan to keep it. I don't get the idea from you that your jurisdiction is one where you are going to be able to keep it if it comes down to the judge making the decision (and that seems to be where yours is going). I think the judge sent you both a strong warning in denying both of your motions. I wonder how you would ever get a loan to try to buy him out based on what you have said about your finances. From here, it sounds like your determination to keep it is the reason this has not been done.

At the end of the day it does not matter who sells your house or what they list it for. As long as they put it on MLS and the pictures are good (something I would try to keep some agency over, like approval of the listing), the market will tell you what the house is worth and what a buyer is willing to pay for it. If you price it too low, you will get many offers above the way the market has been. If you price it too high, the market will tell you and you will get none or they will make low offers. If your goal is not to sell and he prices too high, then it won't sell and you have nothing to fear; the experience will teach him about the value of the home more than any appraisal ever could. Perhaps then he would be willing to entertain one of your deals.

If you told him that he can choose whomever he wants to list it on two conditions, would he go for it? Condition 1--you get approval of the listing/pictures. Condition 2--you get to match the offer price (which I think would require you to have funding in place) by providing proof of financing within x days or it goes to the buyer. If you can't do that, again, I'm not sure how the court could make a ruling where you get to keep the house.

Everyone has to reach their own place on these things, but I don't think coming up with unkind names helps you, it causes you to vilify these folks in a way that keeps you entrenched. Very likely the realtor just wants to make a sale in a very competitive market where you are. That does not make him a bad person. Even if he has unrealistic ideas on the value of the house, as I've explained, that doesn't really present a problem for you if your goal is not to sell. Until you test the market, your perceptions and his will remain just that; hypothetical battles over something that can be resolved with an action.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me, and I'm sure you will have a million excuses for why it won't work (I too had many excuses for a very long time), but I say these things to you with care about what you have endured and a desire to see you using your many talents on something more productive than banging your head against a wall for several more years. I'm not sure what good you see in making offer after offer. At this point, they are likely all just noise. Just to change it up, if you aren't willing to do what I've suggested, how about going very, very quiet. No more offers, no more motions. Give him some time and space to see how he might step into the void.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/31/21 12:17 AM
Oh, I just wanted everyone to say, Oh my gosh, I can't believe that connection happened and either laugh or cry about it. Just feeling lonely.
Posted By: OwnIt Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/31/21 12:37 AM
Gerda, you aren't alone and the anger is something we can all understand. I'm sure other folks, like me, had a hard time deciphering what you were looking for and therefore didn't know how to respond. I've written many a post that didn't solicit a response. I often view it as journaling or just saying something somewhere anonymous (ha ha) so I can get it off my chest and move on.

I remember when you and the kids had some holiday get togethers. What about an end of summer repeat, something fun, festive, and with masked people in shifts? Something to lift your spirits and give you something to look forward to.
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 08/31/21 04:35 PM
Hi Gerda,

Don't let it get to you too much. There are many people out there with less good intentions and who will always have something to say about anybody else.

Know that you are someone who has the heart in the right place, and try to let it go, although I fully understand how difficult that sometimes is. (having equal issues with MIL who is constantly trying to convince the family that I'm not good for H, nobody follows her because they know she is a bad person)

Good-hearted people will see right through this you know.

Hugs (((((())))))
Posted By: may22 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/01/21 01:00 AM
Hi Gerda,

What I took from your post is-- you're such a beautiful person. I'm so sorry about your FIL and it speaks volumes that you're grieving and praying for him. (((Gerda)))

And UGH about the broker and all the dumb connections.

xoxo May
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/01/21 02:25 AM
Hello Gerda

Wowee. What a busy weekend and couple of days. Today was only 13 hours unlike yesterday’s 16.

Originally Posted by Gerda
And tonight I am away from all that in my mountain cabin, watching how fast the moon crosses the sky and listening to all the insects singing into the stars.....

Yes. With the sun setting earlier the stars shine before bed now. Standing out under their gaze and listening to the insects sing, squeak, buzz, and chirp is kind of enthralling.

And when one notices how fast the moon or sun crosses the sky; that’s a nice sign of a peaceful time.


I do recall that time when you confronted H and his “friend” (broker) and prevented Cockroach from entering your house. Such a pair of sneaks those two were.

It is pretty wild that S16 and the broker’s son are friends. Small world huh?

I’d suggest not naming the broker Cockroach in your mind. That kind of thing tends to jade and taint one. And S16 and this kid are friends.

Good for you assuaging son’s fears regarding what his friend might know. And assuring him that you will be quashing drama and behaving adult-like in any future talks between parents.

This is just another wee test from the universe. Another opportunity to shine and grow. I’ve found blessing or curse usually depends on one’s point of view. smile

I did write my post before reading Own’s. I quite like her assessments. Don’t vilify friend’s Dad with names. And her financial / realty point of view is interesting and worthy of consideration.


S16 is growing into a fine man. I was impressed by his taking lead and going to see his Dad at the news of FIL’s death. In two short years son will be an adult, and I am predicting he is going to find his way just fine.

Son’s asking questions regarding the events from 2019 and his friend’s Dad’s involvement is fine. It sounds like you covered off the basics and facts without dragging this man through the mud too bad. S16 doesn’t need all the dirty little details.

Originally Posted by Gerda
It was quite hard to navigate and hard to assuage S16's fears, because the truth is that the drama will probably continue, H probably LOVES that he can sneak his way into S16's life and get control of his feelings in that way.

Yes, some drama probably will be attempted by H. Continue? I’m not sure. Does it take an audience for drama to survive? Like the noise of a tree falling when no one is around. Do not debate if there is noise or not, just don’t be there to hear it. And better yet, don’t get hit by a falling tree.

H’s sneaky ways does not get control of S16’s feelings. Nope. No way.

S16 controls his own feelings. He is a smart lad. He can and might even realize Dad’s attempts at influencing his feelings. Influence, not control. Perhaps that is something you and son can discuss. That would go a long way to assuage your fears as well as son’s.

I am sorry you are feeling lonely.

You are one of my favourite folks around here. Much more than an anonymous user ID. Deeper than the flat characters upon the screen. There is a feeling, caring, person, typing and sharing her life. Many many people read your words and are walking beside you.

(((Hugs)))

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/25/21 04:29 AM
Friends. I am so broken tonight.

It has been a horrible few weeks. My MIL, after that first meeting where we cried and I listened to her and then sent many kind messages and offers to see her, went back to her same ways, not answering me anymore, rarely seeing the children but when she did, going directly to my children to manipulate them into going to H's restaurant. My daughter kept refusing and at one point my MIL sort of tricked her into going into H's apartment when he wasn't there, very traumatizing.

Then I heard that H had hired S16's best friend, the son of the broker mentioned before. (And by the way, the nickname I gave him was a sort of translation of his actual name. That private joke with myself is a way I can stay sane, and I think it's fine to laugh with old friends (you) about the wicked characters in this fairy tale. I would not say that to my kids or ppl IRL) First S16 was really angry and embarrassed and told me he was going to tell H not to hire him. And then I heard that S16 had been going there more and was considering working there too.

All this was happening while I was filing a motion to change custody and trying to get interim child support, etc. All of my papers, already turned in, talked about how H hadn't seen his son in two years. All these meetings, hiring S16, etc., all was done in secret and neither S16 nor H ever told me about it. And during these weeks, S16 started treating me so horribly, so so horribly -- it was like living with H -- including the never-home, never-answering phone all the way down to the disgust, the insults, the scorn, etc.

Then last week I was in the hospital. It was a bit of an emergency and related to the cancer drug I am on, which increases the risk of another kind of cancer. That day, I was supposed to have a conference on a motion I filed to change custody. That morning I wrote to tell the parties that I was having a medical emergency and would have to adjourn. Later that night, when I came home, I saw the flurry of e-mails exchanged that morning about rescheduling, asking again about a trial date, etc. Only the court attorney said anything my being in the hospital, just literally four words.

Not the death of his own father, not me being in the hospital could cause any change in the focus of these people -- focus on destruction and avoiding any provision, even the most basic child support for our kids.

I had to file a notice of appeal before 30 days had passed, so I did that the last two days. I still hope and pray we settle or have a trial before the appeal is heard but if we don't, I had to protect myself.

D12 then started saying she wanted to see her dad for breakfast to see how it went. So I wrote to H and his lawyer saying that she wanted to do that, and offering again a custody agreement that started with the breakfasts and worked its way up to increased visits over time. No response. D12 texted her dad but he mostly did not answer, waited many days and then wrote one of his weird overly cutesy middle school romance kind of texts. And in the meantime was hiring my son and his best friend, making plans with them, etc., all without my knowing anything about it.

Then one night one of the other mothers told me that all the guys were going to S16's Dad's restaurant, and how fun that was.

Today I had to be in court filing a bunch of papers, and on my way out another email from H's lawyer threatening and posturing.

And then tonight I could not get my son to return my calls and I didn't know where he was. And finally he did text me back and said he was working. I asked, "Working out?" (He is really into working out now and I bought him an expensive gym membership for his birthday.) And he wrote back, "No, at the restaurant." And then he added, "temporarily," I guess somehow to try to show he wasn't totally being bought by his dad.

I felt so bad. So so so bad. After everything that has happened, all I did to feed and house my kids against these odds, with cancer, with loneliness, with a husband who went truly insane or turned out always to be insane, with being left with all the debts, being broke, keeping this place running through Covid, trying to love my kids and feed them and bearing their displaced rages at me out of love for them, now my son who was so difficult and seemed to finally be coming out of it is WORKING for this man instead of just receiving from this man the money he OWES his son as a father providing for his son -- and treating me so bad, so many secrets, so much dysfunction, and I am just so lonely in this moment, and just terrified about it getting even worse, that my kids will start doing that, recreating our old life in this restaurant, hanging out with their friends there, believing the lies H and his mother will feed them about me, and all the while I am trapped in the endless litigation, my efforts to resolve using the agreement we already made or another one just like it or another one even better, all of them ignored.

You cannot imagine the horrible things I want to say to S16. I feel so betrayed by him. I know that is my own wound speaking and I won't say anything to him of course but I might have to avoid him entirely to avoid saying something hurtful out of the hurt I am feeling. I just want to crawl under a rock and not come out until all of this is over. I feel so terrible. Just sitting here trying to pray and to find the light again and crying my head off.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/25/21 06:04 AM
P.S. When S16 came home, he was awful and I was pretty stony. I kept trying to get my face normal so I could speak and I kept being silent because I couldn't. Finally told him that I thought it was great to connect with his Dad again but that he should not have to earn financial support, that his Dad should be helping him and let him focus on school. He told me that he didn't care, that was my problem, he liked working there, etc. I said that all the secrecy and keeping me uninformed about what he was doing was not right and made it really hard for me in court -- and then I said a couple things, e.g., that his dad had claimed S lived with him, etc., -- he just got more and more defiant and told me to deal with my own sh%t.

I did not even want to tell him any of that. It all makes me sound like I am trying to stop him from seeing his dad. I'm not. But not this way. Two years of nothing, and all the vicious horror in court, now dropping D and making use of S in this way. The way he hired S's best friend to lure him in. It was so clever and so dark.

All this time I have not told my kids much about what is going on, I don't tell them the specifics. Once in a while I say something or they see me come back from court sad. All this time S would make fun of D12 for going to see her dad and would tell me he was afraid to see him, etc.

I feel like my son just got sucked into the darkness.

I know you will all say it's great to reconnect with his dad. But this is not great. This is all secrets and lies and manipulation and confusion and it seems like there is nothing I can. There is no way I can affect this narrative without looking like I'm trying to poison them too. But I don't even know how to behave around my own children now! I am so sad and so broken and I feel so mad at them and don't want to!

Please don't 2x4 me. Just gentle advice please. I'm really broken.
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/25/21 12:43 PM
Dear Gerda,

Sorry to hear that H's manipulation is taking over again.

I can't help much, but I do want to briefly tell you a story about a woman I met recently who lost her children for about 4 years, precisely because of the manipulation and influence her H used on their children.

This was a woman who lived abroad with her H and their 2 children. (ages 14 and 12 at the time)
This man has always been very manipulative and a narcist. On top of that, she thinks he also got an MLC at one point. (personally I don't think it was MLC)

Her H met an OW and wanted to get rid of his wife immediately.
Strange enough he did not want to lose his children, apparently for all the wrong reasons. (that's why I don't think it was MLC, since not regular behavior for MLC'ers)

He manipulated those children in such a way that they no longer wanted to have anything to do with their own mother.

That woman came back to her own country broken, losing her entire family.

However, she has always tried to keep in touch with her children, even if they didn't want to.

When the first child reached adulthood, he literally trew his children away. Apparantely he did not want to pay child and/or spousal support at the time of the break-up. Once they were no longer financially interesting to him, he didn't want to have anything to do with them anymore.

Those children have come back to their mother and since then they have been living with her again. They now understand what a bad person their father is and never want contact with him again.

I just want to tell you Gerda, children are naive, believe in the goodness of mankind, but soon or later, these children become adults and they will experience it, just the same way as you have realized you H isn't a good person. Then they will need your help and you will have to be there for them. But they will have to go through this process themselves unfortunately.

You will not be able to make this clear to them, and save them from this, especially not because they are already teenagers.

Can I ask you something? Do you think your H is still experiencing an MLC or do you think this is simply who he is, definitely because of the fact he has put you through a whole lot of things, and still does, for so many years already.

Good luck dear Gerda…this must be incredibly difficult for you…i'm so sorry...Hugs...
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/25/21 03:58 PM
Good Morning Gerda

(((Hug)))

Let me tell you of some more of my dark times. You always find solace in the realization that I experienced dark painful episodes as well.

Back when XW threw away her children I was left holding the bag on everything. It was so overwhelming. So horrible. So nasty to the kids. And, a my dark little secret, it was nice.

Sure I had all these emotions and problems and responsibilities, and I had no competition for parent of the year. XW checked out big time, which left me.

As horrible as all that was, it was nice. I also got used to it.

Children grow up. And they all found their relationship with their Mom. It is little wonder with my guidance and encouragement towards forgiveness. Yet, I felt betrayed somewhat. Yeah, I know. How irrational is that. I’m the one encouraging their forgiving and felt against it. Lol.

Of course, I know and realize feeling are fleeting, and worked my way through such irrational mire. XW behaved a certain way for years, and one gets used to that and expects that to be the way things are. Nothing remains static.

Currently, it seems XW is starting to perhaps question her reality, somewhat. That was revealed recently by S23. Again, a weird threat to my dominance as “the” parent. Haha. I do laugh at my self for these feelings. They are real, valid, and completely irrationally based.

To be transparent and open, these feelings are extremely fleeting. Lasting like a minute. I do not reinforce them. And they are not consuming, more of a twinge as they go off to see Mom for a few minutes after visiting me for the entire weekend, or occur while hearing about a phone call they had with her.

Of course, I’m in a very good space now. A few years ago things were different and I did get dragged around.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I don't even know how to behave around my own children now!

As a Mom or a Dad, we parents walk many paths simultaneously. Remain the loving Mom you are.

I love my kids. I let my kids go forth into the world. And I remain available, and love and support them as they find their own paths.

Gerda, let S16 work at his Dad’s restaurant. (You really can’t stop him anyhow.) Heck, you might as well encourage him to work there.

Encourage him to pursue his passions and interests. Encourage him to spend time with his Dad - presently for the moment that “encouragement” is more not discouraging him. Valid S16’s choices and decisions to work for his Dad.

I know that all hurts. While you are finding your way to reconcile this new information, continue to live and lead in the light. Your path still exists. You still need to walk. And you have D12’s journey to foster as well. Another hug. (((Hug))) It can get rather overwhelming at times.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I saw my MIL for the first time in years today. She was weeping the whole time and me 50% of the time.

I was at the cabin and my son was on his own. He had to go to H's restaurant and see H for the first time in over two years and MIL for the first time in more than three years. He didn't even tell me. When I got back, he told me and said he wanted to tell me in person and that he decided to do it because he felt it would be selfish not to go. He even called his therapist before he went.

He got his learners permit on Monday. So I let him drive afterwards.

This is a short update.

So proud of my son.

Families need to be there when grief hits. And this whole D nightmare is making it very hard to navigate. But maybe it will somehow help my kids at least reconnect with their grandmother.

Originally Posted by Gerda
My MIL, after that first meeting where we cried and I listened to her and then sent many kind messages and offers to see her, went back to her same ways, not answering me anymore, rarely seeing the children…

MIL just lost her husband. She reached out, and as grief progressed, return to herself. It’s a month since her husband’s death. She’ll be somewhere in the anger stage right now. Who do you think she is going to lash out to? How do you think she’d express her anger and frustration? You are a target. Everyone around her would be target. God always gets a blast or two during such processing of loss as well.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I felt so bad. So so so bad. After everything that has happened, all I did to feed and house my kids against these odds, with cancer, with loneliness, with a husband who went truly insane or turned out always to be insane, with being left with all the debts, being broke, keeping this place running through Covid, trying to love my kids and feed them and bearing their displaced rages at me out of love for them, now my son who was so difficult and seemed to finally be coming out of it is WORKING for this man instead of just receiving from this man the money he OWES his son as a father providing for his son -- and treating me so bad, so many secrets, so much dysfunction, and I am just so lonely in this moment, and just terrified about it getting even worse, that my kids will start doing that, recreating our old life in this restaurant, hanging out with their friends there, believing the lies H and his mother will feed them about me, and all the while I am trapped in the endless litigation, my efforts to resolve using the agreement we already made or another one just like it or another one even better, all of them ignored.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Finally told him that I thought it was great to connect with his Dad again but that he should not have to earn financial support, that his Dad should be helping him and let him focus on school. He told me that he didn't care, that was my problem, he liked working there, etc. I said that all the secrecy and keeping me uninformed about what he was doing was not right and made it really hard for me in court -- and then I said a couple things, e.g., that his dad had claimed S lived with him, etc., -- he just got more and more defiant and told me to deal with my own sh%t.

H doesn’t owe S16 money. H owes you money. You raise son and H owes you. Keep son out of that transaction.

By the way, son is 16 and wants to earn his way, earn his finances. That is a good thing.

And, although S16 was crass, he was right when saying deal with your own sh%t.

Ah, parenting. Those simultaneous paths. Our kids, thankfully, have a different view than us. It is at times hard to be that role model.

Originally Posted by Gerda
You cannot imagine the horrible things I want to say to S16. I feel so betrayed by him. I know that is my own wound speaking and I won't say anything to him of course but I might have to avoid him entirely to avoid saying something hurtful out of the hurt I am feeling. I just want to crawl under a rock and not come out until all of this is over. I feel so terrible. Just sitting here trying to pray and to find the light again and crying my head off.

Yes, I can imagine the horrible thing you’d like to say to S16. I’ve uttered some during my low times, and I still regret the looks I caused upon the faces of my son and daughter. Two specific times of unmeasured words being uttered and causing unwarranted and unneeded pain in my kids. Yeah, I’ve got a few times a truly do regret.

So what to do? Get up, dust off, and step back into the light.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I am so sad and so broken and I feel so mad at them and don't want to!

Feeling will flit.

Your anger, if you don’t yet realize, is a stage of grief. Grief? What you talking about DnJ? The irrational loss of your kids to H.

We all default and see things in a binary manner at first. Son can work and be with Dad, and still be with you. It’s not either or.

You anger is normal and understandable. And there is plenty going on in your life - litigation, cabin, work, paying bills, putting food on the table, raising good kids, and so much more. Breathe and be gentle on yourself.

D
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/27/21 06:29 PM
Dearest Gerda, I am so sorry for the anguish you are suffering at the moment. I am sure the past few days have given you some time for your wise inner voice to break through some of the veneer of anger and injustice, but I just wanted to add my support.

DnJ has shared some really wise advice, all of which I agree with. I think one of the differences in his situation compared to yours, however, is that J's 'disappearance' mediated some of the abuse that you have experienced with your H. And from your writing, that abuse was present during the marriage and up to present day. Abusive situations require a different skill set to navigate. Triggers are not only emotional, but can viscerally recall the prior abuse and you may feel it in your whole body. I am not suggesting that a less abusive marriage doesn't also share the c-ptsd bodily response, but in your situation, you are literally in fight or flight mode with every single interaction (or interaction-by-proxy as with your children).

Here's your job at the moment, a very, very tough one, but necessary for you and your children: separate your abuse from the abuse you have witnessed your children suffer. When I read your post, it doesn't feel like you have differentiated the abuse you experienced from the abuse your children experienced. That worked for a while, you were mama-bear protecting your cubs and you HAD to lump it all together for you to survive. And you have done such a great job of it. So well, in fact, that your children are actually strong, healthy and stable enough to consider navigating a relationship with their father. What a wonderful thing you have done to have raised and protected your children so! Your job here is not done, invariably they will suffer at H's hand again in the future, but you have given them the tools they need for the moment and you will be present and loving in the future when they need your support in this arena.

So now is the time to differentiate. Allow them to practice using the tools you have given them. And take that additional time and mental space to do some deep work on yourself and healing your trauma. I don't remember if you are in therapy, but if not, find a really, really, really good trauma-informed therapist that specializes in narcissistic abuse. And lean in heartily (two or three times a week for a month or so if you can manage that) for as long as it takes for you to feel safe again. Within yourself. Because your children will betray you. Your H will betray you and if you can't differentiate what is theirs and what is yours, you will continue to suffer needlessly.

You are wise and wonderful. Remember that.

(((Gerda)))
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/27/21 09:15 PM
Gerda,

Hello my friend. It has been a while. I read your post just now and it about broke my heart. I know EXACTLY how you feel. I want my kids to have a good relationship with their mom. They deserve that, but I can't help but feel relieved when they are angry at her and disappointed when they seem to be getting along...and I hate that I feel that way. I am going through a little bit of that myself right now...and it is hard. One thing I can say is that I experience that off and on consistently because my ex is still swapping with me 50% of the time, even though my son is now 18 (just turned 18 a week ago) so I have had a lot of time to think about that feeling and what it means.

There are a few things to consider. One, that your children are smart. They may have a lot to learn still, but they are smart. Even if they don't fully realize the situation as it stands...they will. As they get older and start making lives of their own, things will start to fall in to place for them. They know what you are, and they know what their dad is. They won't forget they were afraid of him and disgusted by his behavior. But, he is their dad and some part of them desires a relationship with him. As much as that hurts us after being betrayed by their dad, it is natural. I think a good reminder is that it isn't the kids that have betrayed us by desiring a relationship, it is our MLCers that have betrayed us, kids included. The children are just stuck in the middle. But as they get older, they will begin to realize all the sacrifices you have made for their benefit. Sometimes it takes an adult mind to recognize adult behavior.

Another thing I think it is important to consider is stability and structure. We all crave it to some degree or another. It makes us feel safe and helps us know where we stand. You are providing that for your children and you are the only one doing so. It is one of the things that is allowing them to grow more confident in their decisions. They will go out in to the world and make good and bad decisions, but you are the home they run to in order to seek refuge from it all. That is POWERFUL! He may be trying to be fun dad or something, but that doesn't really go very far. And, the more time they spend around him, the more opportunities he has to hurt them be being himself. Then they will come back to you for the stability they will need in that time. They are teenagers and they will be rebellious at time, and it will hurt at times because we are only human, but you really are doing a remarkable job and it will become evident to them soon if not now. The love and stability you are providing is creating the platform of confidence they are using to go out in to the world and explore the things that interest them. Good job mama!

You got knocked down. Its ok to feel how you do, that is normal. But, you should also be PROUD of the woman you are and the job you are doing. Problem is, you don't have people around you reminding you of that. Let us step in and do that for you. I am absolutely proud to call you a friend. You are an amazing mother and friend (and wife when given the opportunity). We all think it!!

Love you friend (((GERDA)))

Sam I Am
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/28/21 12:44 PM
Parental alienation. It's a legal term because it's an old, old game played by sick people during divorces.

Parentifying ... another term worth getting to know because that usually also goes hand in glove with alienation.


Regardless of what your husband is or isn't doing, this divorce is between the two parties who married - You and Him - not your kids. Keep your side of the street clean. There is no reason ever to include kids in the details of the divorce proceedings.

I get, more than you could ever imagine, the triggers pulled by defiant sons who sound just like their toxic fathers. My ex-MIL has never lost an opportunity to degrade me to my son. That's on her, not me. What I choose to do in response is on me. What she does is very damaging to my son. What I do would be even more damaging.

Hold firm. Vent here or to close friends IRL. Is family therapy an option for you and your son?

Most of all, trust in God.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 04:54 AM
Thank you, my friends, for all these comments.

I will write more soon to reply to each of you.

I don't know if you remember what happened the last eight years. The children were decimated by this man. And it took me seven years to get my son out of the worst of it. Self harm, shoplifting, refusing to go to school, reported twice to ACS, rage, running away, etc. It was just this summer that I started to feel he was going to be okay.

Now that he is seeing his father again, and living this secret life always at his place, my son has totally transformed and totally regressed.

Just now he spent 1/2 an hour telling me what a loser I am, how lame that I can't afford the things I need, why I had to get a "real" job so that I could finally pay for things for this family, and the look on his face, of pure hatred, disdain, disgust. It's like he is absorbing the MLC monster and coming home to puke it out all over me. I tried to listen to him at first and let him get it out, but after a while I realized it was a sort of monstering and that all i could do was disengage by leaving. And then I remembered that until maybe 10 months ago, S would regularly wreck my things when he was in a rage. Just in small ways, like knocking over my jewelry box or something. But his face is like that again. It's like he's not in there anymore. This all happened just in the last month of seeing his father again and being sucked into that vortex, working hours and hours there and I think tonight he was just hanging out there.

There are many things I have to do to do work on myself, trauma therapy sounds right. And I agree that there is not much I can do to keep S from his dad. But I do not agree that what is happening between me and H is separate from my kids. I think it's almost dangerous to see it that way. There is a difference between trying not to share any details and thinking this is only between a husband and wife. My H's goal is to destroy the family unit, not me. He doesn't have any mercy or empathy for these kids, and I can see already what he is doing to my son, my son is literally transformed in the space of three weeks.

Anyway Thank you for all the time you took to help me, DnJ, Sage, SJohn, Eagle, Bttrfly. Will reply more soon.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 10:17 AM
Sometimes we try to help people, in real life or here on the boards, and for whatever reason the help isn't taken. People have to find their own way. You, Gerda, have to find your own way regardless of what any of us offer as suggestions or encouragement.

I've a friend - known him for well over 35 years. In fact, he introduced me to my exh. He is completely damaged by his parents divorce, even though it happened when he was a child. He blames one parent for everything and sanctifies the other parent. He knows way too much about the details of their relationship and divorce and only one parent gave him those details. He's never had his own family because he was parentified and a victim of parental alienation. What do I mean by this? In his case, he has no relationship with his father and is his mother's partner in every way except sexual. He's his brothers' dad, and they resent him for that role. He has never had a romantic relationship of any real length or substance. He has so much anger, it's affected his personal and work relationships. It's really sad to see this. He's a great guy, but he's imprisoned by this and he can't even see it. Worse yet, his mother trolls the internet for any and all details about her exh which she then shares with him and which fuels more anger and resentment. They are locked into this vicious dynamic and have been for DECADES. Guess what? My MIL tried to do the same to my exh, with almost the same results.

My husband said the most damaging thing in a string of damaging things was that his parents bad mouthed each other to him. And yes, he has done the same to our son, and it's caused great harm. I cannot protect my son from his father ... they have their own relationship to figure out. I can and try to make sure that my side of the street is swept clean on a daily basis and that I do not do that as well. No child should ever know the details of their parents' relationship. I'm adamant about that. Nothing good can come from it, especially if that relationship is acrimonious. I personally know way more than I ever wanted to about my parents' relationship and I struggle with it and theirs was a pretty good relationship all things considered. I cannot control what my son's father does or says. I can only control what I do and say.

I don't pretend to know what the best course of action is for you and your children. I'd suggest family therapy as a starting point and / or maybe some religious counseling for yourself if you are open to it. I wish you and your family all the best.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 11:55 AM
Good Morning Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
But I do not agree that what is happening between me and H is separate from my kids. I think it's almost dangerous to see it that way. There is a difference between trying not to share any details and thinking this is only between a husband and wife.

What is happening between you and H is between you and H. It also affects your kids, friends, family, etc.

It is important to ensure son and daughter realize they are not the cause of your divorce. That it is between you and H. Only!

Yes, it is good to provide information and answer question for their young thirsty minds. Factual and to the point age appropriate answers. There are plenty of lessons they will and are learning. Morality, loyalty, resilience, responsibility, trustworthy, honour, to name a few. And there is vengeance, anger, hatred, selfishness, and so on, they are exposed too and learning about. It’s up to us to be the role model and guide which is lived. One needs both sides to truly learn something.

Originally Posted by Gerda
My H's goal is to destroy the family unit, not me. He doesn't have any mercy or empathy for these kids, and I can see already what he is doing to my son, my son is literally transformed in the space of three weeks.

It sounds like H is weaponizing son. Attempting to drag him to his side. Involving son in that which son should not be involved. Whether that be willful or a more unintended product of H’s interact with son is unknown. I suspect H is looking for an ally.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Just now he [son] spent 1/2 an hour telling me what a loser I am, how lame that I can't afford the things I need, why I had to get a "real" job so that I could finally pay for things for this family, and the look on his face, of pure hatred, disdain, disgust. It's like he is absorbing the MLC monster and coming home to puke it out all over me.

Gerda, why allow this?

What would you do if the “reason” for son’s outburst and ill mannered disrespectful venting was not “caused” by MLC divorcing Dad?

Control. Son controls himself. Regardless of input.

If one of his friends had talked him into thinking you were a looser, would you accept it? Would you let son talk like that to you? Of course not! So do not let it happen because the “cause” is the divorce.

What is happening between you and H is between, and stays between, you and H. You and son’s relationship is your’s, separate from H, divorce, MLC, etc. Treat it as such. Talk to son and address his views.

Boundaries my dear. Son can control himself. He can think what he likes. And he can still be respectful. Willfully damaging a jewelry box is a passive aggressive action looking for admonishment. His behaviour will escalate until he finds what he is looking for.

Provide firm and gentle guidance to son.

Feel for you my dear. Sorry things have stirred up again.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 12:18 PM
but bttrfly I don't do any of those things. I had one dark night where I was tempted and slipped. That's why I posted for a first time in a while. To say how horrible I felt. To say that it's complicated and delicate.

I think the point is more that whether you keep your side "clean" or you don't, your kid is going to get very very damaged by the narcissist. Because the kid with a parent like that is already blaming herself and internalizing everything because she doesn't realize what's going on. That's what happened to me as a teen. My son has a whole defiant side that leads to other self harm.

And that is a cause of grief. I am grieving because I have to surrender my kid to that.

This confusion had gone away in the last couple years when his dad was out of his life.

Now my kid has totally regressed and has become abusive to me again. If anything he is trying to be my parent and I am trying to figure out how to keep him a kid.

Even if you don't do anything to alienate, the very fact of a broken family alienates. You can refuse to participate, you can pray for your spouse, you can tell your kids to forgive, you can say the grownups will take care of it, etc., and it's still a dysfunctional gaslighted mess. It's confusing and complicated for the kids and a cause for grief to watch them struggle.

I was tempted that night so I came here and talked about it. Like an addict coming to a meeting in order to stay clean, not in order to justify a relapse.

I'm still Gerda and all that you knew about me before is still the case.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 02:25 PM
Kids are smart. A lot smarter than a lot of people any where on this board give them credit for. And your kids aren't babies. They are 12 and 16. They are in the middle of battling their way out of childhood and into adulthood. Divorce or no, teens are defiant. They say mean things to the people they love the most. They do rebellious things for the sake of rebellion. They see how far they can push boundaries to see what their limits are, to see what your limits are, simple to stretch their wings. Shop lifting is incredibly common in teens. Lying, all teens lie. Self harm, super common. Experimenting with drugs, don't know if he did that, but that's also completely normal teen behavior. Disappearing and not telling you where they are going, yup typical teen behavior. It hurts as a parent watching your sweet babies become raging hormone monsters. It's frustrating, rage inducing, and deeply saddening when they make you feel helpless or like their behavior is completely out of control. But the reality is their behavior is as much in your control as you want it to be.

They are going to do things that need to be corrected immediately. Speaking to you like that, well let's say your boy is lucky I'm not his mom. We'd be done with that after the first comment. Absolutely not. You are in charge of what you allow. Would you let your ex speak to you like that? A stranger? Your kid doesn't get kid glove treatment because he's a child of divorce. That's not how this works. The likelihood that he's acting out because of the divorce and not because he's just an angsty defiant 16 year old boy is pretty slim. Also teens are going to do things that you really should just straight up ignore. Not every hill is a hill to die on. Sometimes you need to act like them and just roll your eyes and go about your day. Surviving teens in or outside of a divorce is difficult. But a lot of what you're doing here is attributing completely normal teenage behavior to your ex and the divorce. Narcissist or not, manipulation or not your kids are too old to be fully puppeted by him. And your ex is your ex, evil, sociopath, narcissist he may be, but he's not a god. He only has as much control as you let him have. Even if he's using your kids as pawns it's a game he's playing with you, not them.

The only way for you to get through this with your relationship to your children in tact you genuinely have to separate your issues with your ex from your issues with your kids. At this stage it's way too complicated to suss out the correlation and/or causation of the divorce and your ex on their behavior. You need to get into therapy if you aren't. You need support and tools to traverse this. You have a lot on that plate of yours and a non-bias sounding board to help you process this stuff could really go a long way. You also really need to establish clear boundaries with your kids. What is and isn't acceptable. It's not acceptable to just disappear as a 16 year old. It's not acceptable to tell your chronically ill mother she should get a real job. It's not acceptable to commit crimes. It's not acceptable to rage when you would've been more than happy to have a conversation. And yes, laying down the law could push them into the arms of their completely trash father, but that's neither here nor there. That's a bridge you'll have to cross if you get there. Some kids need to learn things the hard way. And if thinking the grass is greener with dad, you may have to just let them learn that. If the lesson is dad is not who he pretends to be, I'm almost positive they will each have to learn that the hard way.

You are not the first parent to navigate this sh!tshow. I've had more than one friend pack their child's belongings up and let them know if dad/mom(although less common in my circle) is so fantastical and amazing and the best parent, person and human to walk this Earth ever by all means go live with them. I've only ever seen maybe 2 actually go for it. And I've yet to have seen a kid who didn't regret their decision in less than 30 days. I saw one kid pack her own stuff and all her mom had to say was "And where do you think that's going to go in your dad's house? He doesn't even have a room for you. You sleep on a couch. BTW does he even know you're planning on moving in?" He didn't show up to pick her up that weekend and called to cancel like 3 hours after he was supposed to get her. Sh!tty people never fail to show their colors, even narcissists. And some kids refuse to learn life lessons through critical thinking, they need their hearts broken and hopes dashed to accept that the fairy tale version of reality they've had in their head was completely off base. It hurts like hell to not be able to soften the blow for them It's hurts like hell to not be able to get them to understand things holistically enough that they don't have to learn the hard way. But that's the nature of children. No one will ever bring you more joy or more pain. And it's our duty to let them find their way, be a firm hand to guide then and a soft place to land when they fall flat on their faces.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 02:30 PM
Awesome post wayfarer!
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 07:51 PM
Sage, thank you for the ideas and the care you took to write these words.

I was definitely was in a moment of intense weakness and loneliness when I wrote that. Probably a bad idea to record it here, I kind of regret what it started on my thread. But it's true that trauma is an imprint and unresolved trauma no doubt led me to choose H in the first place. Thanks for the love! Have to go back through your post and read it a few more times to get all the nuggets.

Thanks, DnJ, for sharing the dark day moments, I think we all just want to feel like someone can relate to our ugliest moments and still want to be our friend. I hear you about S16 but there are moments when a kid has ODD that don't work out that way. I hopefully provided a lot of guidance and taught him respect along this rocky road the last eight years. It's not always possible but I would not expect anyone whose kid does not have that to know what it's like. My other child does not have that and as difficult as she can sometimes be, it's a whole different animal with S. It's going to be his journey ultmately but hopefully with his special school and his therapist and a little bit from me, he will find his way.

sjohn, you helped me so much with your words. Would like to tell you my name too but I know I had better not tell it to the world on here. I read your message over many times in the last few days, read it aloud to myself a few times when I was really down, and even showed the post to my best friend. I think it's clear I really needed to hear some loving kindness, it helped me so much. It's really a mystery to me that you think those things about me, but a very good mystery. Also helpful to read about how you have struggled with the same thing at times. When we are feeling really ashamed or ugly or bad about ourselves, to know someone else has been there is really the best way to inspire someone to climb out of that hole. It's really hard for me to imagine anyone doubting you; you are so open and kind and I bet you are a fun dad with your kids to boot. And you are right, I have no one around me doing that; in fact pretty much none. My family is quite similar to H (thus the original attraction!) and my kids are teens so they are really mean at least 50% of the time. Hey, have you been writing anymore? I was trying to remember something you had talked about in the past about a box of something that made me write to you about being creative but I forget what it was all about. I think that's when we first became friends. I hope you are doing really well otherwise, and that your life has a direction and a beauty that goes beyond what you suffered....
Posted By: job Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 07:55 PM
I agree w/DnJ....an awesome post wayfarer!

Gerda,

Your children are growing up, they are attempting to spread their wings a bit. You have to give them the room to do so. You cannot control every aspect of their lives, how they feel and what they are thinking. Yes, they are now getting to the stage where they will rant, say things that cut deep, act out, etc., i.e., just like a full blown MLCer. What do you do? You call them on their disrespecting you, you call them on bad behavior...but keep this in your heart...you love them. They know that they can lash out at you because you are the safe parent.

I know you are so afraid that they will want to live with their father. The grass is not always greener on the other side. If your son threatens you with moving in with dear old dad...sit quietly and let him stew on his threat and if he does move out...I can promise you, it won't take long for that little happy fest to turn to resentment. Right now, your son thinks the sun rises and sets in his father...it's going to take him some time to see the true light. You need to drop the rope a bit and allow him to experience life a bit.

Separate your situation from your children's situation. What is going on w/you and your husband has to stay between the two of you. Your children are growing up and are now old enough to sense that things aren't good. They have lessons to learn as they walk this earth and they need to see that dear old dad isn't some goody two shoes.

Trust your faith, lean on your faith and know that whatever will come, you will be strong enough to face it...but do call your children out on their behavior. They need to learn to respect you for who you are.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 09/29/21 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Gerda
but bttrfly I don't do any of those things. I had one dark night where I was tempted and slipped. That's why I posted for a first time in a while. To say how horrible I felt. To say that it's complicated and delicate.
I never said you did. But both parentification and parental alienation are going on with your exh, IMHO. You are human, you will have great days and not so great days. We all have those. My point is that ESPECIALLY if the other parent is creating havoc it's imperative for you to keep your side clean. Can you cause even more damage if you don't? OH YES.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I think the point is more that whether you keep your side "clean" or you don't, your kid is going to get very very damaged by the narcissist. Because the kid with a parent like that is already blaming herself and internalizing everything because she doesn't realize what's going on. That's what happened to me as a teen. My son has a whole defiant side that leads to other self harm.

And that is a cause of grief. I am grieving because I have to surrender my kid to that.

This confusion had gone away in the last couple years when his dad was out of his life.

Now my kid has totally regressed and has become abusive to me again. If anything he is trying to be my parent and I am trying to figure out how to keep him a kid.

Even if you don't do anything to alienate, the very fact of a broken family alienates. You can refuse to participate, you can pray for your spouse, you can tell your kids to forgive, you can say the grownups will take care of it, etc., and it's still a dysfunctional gaslighted mess. It's confusing and complicated for the kids and a cause for grief to watch them struggle.

I was tempted that night so I came here and talked about it. Like an addict coming to a meeting in order to stay clean, not in order to justify a relapse.

I'm still Gerda and all that you knew about me before is still the case.

I encourage you to get IC for yourself and your children and family therapy. That's all the help I have to offer. I'm sorry if it's not enough, but it's the best I can do.
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/01/21 04:48 PM
Gerda, I completely understand about not sharing your name. If I had chosen a username that suited me other than a login to another website I used before, then I might stick with mine too. I am sure your real name is beautiful, but I do like Gerda!

I'm glad that I was able to offer some comfort. It really isn't that much of a mystery why I view you the way I do...it is because of how you carry yourself. The things you think about, the types of concerns you have, how hard you work on things...whether its something you know how to do or not. You have grown leaps and bounds since you first started coming here...and that shows your strength. I have a high opinion of you because you have shown us what kind of woman you are. You are a lighthouse, even if your ex may be forever lost at sea.

I agree that it helps to know that when we are at our lowest, that others have felt the same. My kids seem to be constantly at odds with their mom due to her flaky/selfish behavior. When they are mad at her, it almost gives me a sense of peace that I am not crazy. She is doing this to all of us. But, they live with her part of the time...and flaky or not she still loves them. So, they end up getting along with her a lot more lately. Although her and I still don't talk much, she has calmed down a lot. I find myself feeling almost betrayed by them that they are enjoying time with her. I have to back myself off from that and remind myself that if they can have any kind of a good relationship with her, that is a GOOD thing. I hate that I feel that way, but I can at least say that I am getting better at recognizing it and countering it. It's an ongoing effort...you are not alone!

Another thing I have recognized in myself that it looks like you may struggle with as well is going too easy on the kids in regards to punishment/correction. I find that I feel so bad about not being able to provide the family life I wanted them to have and I see them struggle while with their mother that I bend over backwards to make sure they have no complications at my house of any kind. The problem is that they are still kids and part of what they need is parenting. They need direction, which provides that stability and structure that they need. We can be a safe place to vent, but we can't allow them to think that it is ok to treat us poorly. They get enough of that on the other side, they need direction in how to treat people. They need to see that it is ok to stand up for yourself if you are being treated poorly and that there are real life consequences for their actions. They need to know that if you love someone you don't treat them that way. I am getting better at this but its still a work in progress. I think realistically the dad should step in and correct the son when he mistreats his mother, but this is another instance where we have to step in and make up for the inadequacies of the MLCer. It isn't fair at all, but I love my kids so much and I want them to have all the lessons they need in life, so if I have to pull mom duty to make that happen...so be it. You might have to pull some dad duty here.

I have not been writing much lately. The box you remember us talking about was a time capsule of sorts. I wanted to make a box and fill it with mementos and memories that reminded me of all the things I loved about my wife and my life with her. Something I could put on the shelf and refer back to when things got to a point where I needed a reminder of what I was standing for. I am proud that I felt that way at the time. The thing I didn't fully realize was how much I would change. I feel like the relationship I had with her was a relationship between 2 different people. The memories and feelings I have/had for her feel like they belong to a different person. A different version of me for a different version of her. Even if she at some point wanted to fix things between us (which seems unlikely at this point), I am not sure she is capable of being what I would need her to be in order to work through a reconciliation. I'm not sure she ever really loved me enough to have that much patience to work through the hard bits.

Otherwise, I am doing pretty well. I can't say that I am 100%...but I am leaps and bounds better than I was 2 years ago. I still feel like there is an injured part of my soul that may never fully heal, but for the most part I am better. The hard part is trading the kids. If it was just about her cheating and then leaving, I think I'd probably have moved all the way through this thing by now. But, the constant back and forth with the kids keeps the whole thing kind of fresh to some degree. That and no real closure as to why it all happened...but time helps with that.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on your thread. I hope you have an amazing day today!

-Sam
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/09/21 03:42 PM
Good Morning Gerda

I hope you are doing well.

(((Hug)))

Figured you wouldn’t mind a hug. Heck, you probably could even use one.

I do think of you often. Just letting you know you are in people’s thoughts and prayers more than you may realize.

D
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/09/21 10:50 PM
Hi Brave Little Gerda,

I too have been thinking of you a lot lately and share D's sentiments: you are loved, you are in our thoughts and you are being held from afar.

I hope that your weekend is going well, I do miss those fall colors of the Eastcoast so drink some in for me.

xxx
Sage
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/10/21 03:35 PM
Hi Gerda,

Same here. Thinking of you. Sending lots of love into your direction. Hope you are fine.

(((HUGS)))

Eagle
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/16/21 05:31 PM
I have not had the right time or frame of mind to respond to all these messages, apologies. But that day of the DnJ hug was very well timed, as were the added hugs by Sage and Eagle -- thank you! And SJohn-am, really loved your post and the empathy and care and friendship, very needed that day and the days following! I just have to steal a moment soon to reply properly.

I did think a lot about my reaction to some of the posts. I noticed I felt really driven to explain myself, or to justify what I think or do or to remind those I know here of who I am or what I did in the past or what I meant, etc. It was exactly how I was around H. There is something in all of us LBS's, I think, where we think we need to make something clear to the MLCer so that s/he will finally understand -- and I guess, finally see The Truth and therefore see we were right -- or love us again -- or feel remorse....

I had that same feeling in wanting to reply here, and I even succumbed to it on one of my posts above. Each time I tried to reply, I saw that I was just going to do that again, and that I was preparing a path for myself to feel hurt/alone if someone here didn't understood me or thought something of me that wasn't what I know of myself or my kids or what I did to get us to this point.

That longing to justify oneself, to explain, to make the other person "finally realize" is such a powerful force, and I think it drives most of what we do in the early days, and is what trips us up later too, even when we think we have grown past it. It's the very force I am always counseling folks here to push aside, to ignore, to exorcise.

Even now I am battling with myself to list all the therapy we have done or are doing, or to talk about my son actually going to a therapeutic high school, paid for by the city, because I was able to advocate for that. And I erased that a few times, to see how I would feel if I didn't explain that. It was really uncomfortable for me! I think that right there is THE wound, the big one, that one that drives us not to let the MLCer go, or to lose our confidence or our clarity.

I watched this little film on YT yesterday about gaslighting, a fiction film but I WAS that girl in that film, and I kept thinking they did not need to give her a black eye, many of these people do not hit. At the end of the film she writes on her mirror, YOU ARE UGLY, and then she rubs it out and writes, HE IS UGLY. But that takes YEARS to get there, to be able to even consider that the other one is the ugly spirit, whether it's MLC or was always there, that doesn't happen over a few weeks, to be able to see clearly.

Look at me now, eight years in, having done something or other to cause quite a few of you to care about me (thank you!) or to think I have grown or am wise or kind or whatever else you might think in the positive realm. And yet I am still that too, that girl writing, YOU ARE UGLY on her mirror, or on a post here, and still taking a month or two to think about it and even try to believe that I could be one of those -- the truly ugly one or the one who believes it of herself or the one who finally realizes that maybe it isn't true.

Something to consider, if you are reading this and are new on your journey -- or later on your journey, and battling that same demon. That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle! The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. We aren't going to get that EVER from the MLCer and it may not even happen that you can get it from people around you. I get it, sometimes, through my faith, but most of my daily life does not include that, I have only one friend who loves me like that, and my family loves me more like the MLCer does. So I think as we are figuring out how to heal, we have to know that we need that, we have to face that we may not get that but that we don't need to explain to the MLCer, it doesn't work, it's a wound we have to heal on our own, to stop explaining! All we can do is give that love to others and accept that love when it comes our way....
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/17/21 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by Gerda
Something to consider, if you are reading this and are new on your journey -- or later on your journey, and battling that same demon. That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle! The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. We aren't going to get that EVER from the MLCer and it may not even happen that you can get it from people around you. I get it, sometimes, through my faith, but most of my daily life does not include that, I have only one friend who loves me like that, and my family loves me more like the MLCer does. So I think as we are figuring out how to heal, we have to know that we need that, we have to face that we may not get that but that we don't need to explain to the MLCer, it doesn't work, it's a wound we have to heal on our own, to stop explaining! All we can do is give that love to others and accept that love when it comes our way....

I am this same way. I did feel like I had to keep explaining or justifying my feelings in my marriage, and I have felt I have to do that now with people in my life is discussing how I am doing during this time. It's very hard. After reading your recent posts and this last one, it's sinking in that I am doing this to try to help myself feel better at this point...like I have to justify or explain to others why I feel as terrible as I do. And then they will understand. I also think it comes from the gaslighting and trying to make sense of my feelings and confusion.

Now that I realized my H was a narcissist or at least had many of the behaviors, and with all the lies, I no longer feel the need to explain anything to him or to ask anything of him. I see now that it won't even matter or do any good. But I am stuck doing this with others in my life. And being told "you are so better off now, just be happy about that" feels awful (even if true) but you are right...it's up to us to figure out how to heal, and we need to face that others in our life can't give us that. No one else can really understand how I felt (or feel) and how hard I've tried to deal with the marriage and the divorce. But I really do want that validation and hugs, etc. The need is strong! It [censored] I won't really find it outside of myself. That is my current journey.

Gerda, you are such an inspiration. I've been following you for a while now, and you have been so strong through so many horrible situations. The advice the others gave you is plenty (no more from me). But I want you to know that I see your pain, and I am sorry you are going through everything you are going through. Teens are awful. ha! Stay the light, stay the love, and do your best to stay in your lane (I know it's hard), and your kids will see for themselves what your XH is like. Remember their brains are not fully developed yet...so thing won't be logical to them. But in time they will see things for themselves. And them seeing it for themselves is the only way that they will believe it for themselves. And, you can only control your side of the street anyway.

Hugs to you...and sending you strength. You are not alone. We hear you. And we are here for you.

El
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/17/21 05:36 PM
Good Morning Gerda

Once one has it clear within themselves they cease explaining their reactions. For reactions become a thing of the past.

Personally, I previously craved my reaction to the drama and craziness. The unbelievability of what happened had such a stellar-like component to it. I’ve spoken of my letting go of victimhood and then martyrdom. Just becoming DnJ D.

I still explain! Lol. I explain and suggest, with a hopeful and well intentioned desire. My view is more the explaining facts of the events rather than explaining/justifying my reactions to them.

Feelings are fleeting. Thoughts we can control. We influence and alter our beliefs.

Some values we strengthen and some beliefs we alter and others we need to discard. One belief we need to alter and let go of is our ego’s need to be right. This is not removing that need completely; for our ego serves a valuable purpose. It is letting go or discarding the idea of The Truth.

I have my truth and J has her’s. Each of my kids has their internal version of what transpired and therefore their truth and beliefs. Each of those is valid. And - this is the most important part - true!

Each and every view is true.

That tenet is a difficult thing to find. A difficult ideal to achieve. A hard lesson to learn and believe and live. Yet, such peace and contentment comes from such.

Abstractly, logically, rationally, I agree and believe there is one truth. However, I am not God. I cannot see all ends. I therefore cannot see nor come close to understanding all paths. I only have my wee window and view of the world. My truth of things.

J’s life is her’s. She made decisions and choices based upon whatever torment she is living. That is her truth. Her view. She is absolutely right! Until she decides she isn’t.

That sentiment is the same for any of us. We all hold to our beliefs and values; the underpinning, the definitions of our truth.

Beliefs, values, convictions are slow to change and therefore make excellent headings for life. Irrational feelings rise and fade, rational thoughts discover and dispel, both of which influence our core self.

Beliefs are both irrational and rational. They live within our core self. They are the wellspring of self, the source of our reactions. All of one’s reactions or irrational response to a stimulus is an expression of their deep seated beliefs.

When one really believes in more than one truth, the world becomes a lot better and a whole lot less bitter. The key is letting go our need to be right. Well, actually, our need for others to know we are right. Or the need for others to tell us they were wrong.

Truth really is within the eye of the beholder.

Life’s feedback provides input. Provides reinforcement and influence to what is true. To what is reality. One can ignore such things or embrace. Either way, their view is true to them.

Much peace comes from accepting another’s truth as valid. Acceptance doesn’t imply condoning. Another’s truth, their behaviour, their morals, one can accept, and not agree with or condone it. One doesn’t need to let someone else’s truth rule their life.

Of course, this requires finding that certain conviction within one’s self. Interestingly, most of society is wired against such. And therefore society is repeatedly reenforced with the ideal of absolute right and wrong. Which just perpetuates and further justifies this unaccepting view. Just watch anything on politics. Either side both see themselves as absolutely right in their righteous views. Only standing in the middle, can one see both.

The other interesting ideal that is perpetuated, there is only right or wrong. Win or lose. While in truth, there are many more than two outcomes or points of view. Win-lose, lose-win, win-win, lose-lose for example. These four outcomes are only seen when one realizes the other side. Our default is just our view, our truth. Win or lose. If we win they lose or if they win we must lose. When in fact a win-win scenario is possible, and hardly ever achieved. Of course, one has to realize something before one can work towards it.

Your H seems determined to drag his efforts towards lose-lose. Irrational hurt people tend to loose sight of what is a win or positive outcome. They get lost within the fight and will expend everything to achieve what they feel is a win.

Originally Posted by Gerda
At the end of the film she writes on her mirror, YOU ARE UGLY, and then she rubs it out and writes, HE IS UGLY. But that takes YEARS to get there, to be able to even consider that the other one is the ugly spirit, whether it's MLC or was always there, that doesn't happen over a few weeks, to be able to see clearly.

YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL.

Write that! Clearly!

H is just hurt. H’s ugliness just keeps you attached. Something to let go.

Originally Posted by Gerda
And yet I am still that too, that girl writing, YOU ARE UGLY on her mirror, or on a post here, and still taking a month or two to think about it and even try to believe that I could be one of those -- the truly ugly one or the one who believes it of herself or the one who finally realizes that maybe it isn't true.

It’s not “maybe it isn’t true”. It’s not true!!

Stop trying to believe and start believing.

Originally Posted by Gerda
That need to justify yourself, it's part of your battle!

Yes it is. And it will remain a battle until you decide it isn’t.

I know the pull of ego. The need to correct other people’s views and the misinformation. Lol.

You cannot win that fight. Our MLCers with expend incredible energies on their narrative. They have to. They absolutely have to!

XW flaunted her new shinny relationship with OM. And the male ego is a fragile thing. Lol.

I was replaced. Thrown away. And oh boy, did she let me know how poorly of a man I was. That is a poison that we all drink and need to transmute. I was broken and trusted her from 30+ years. Her words had complete and unfettered access to my core belief system. I understand and empathize the uphill struggle to believe something else.

The vague sexual innuendoes of her and OM were very hurtful. The not so vague innuendos hurt a lot more! Surprisingly, the outright non-vague non-innuendo telling me of her sexual encounters hurt less. We always imagine these things way worse than they are. Lol.

XW spread her story far and wide. Those that chose to believe her did and those that chose not to did not. My telling of my side to various folks, was, as I discovered, really for me. That stellar-like crazy unbelievable drama is quite addictive and it takes quite a lot of discussion and thinking to ramp down and let go of such a thing.

My path was rather quick. My situation being more compressed than most.

I attribute a lot of my success to two nights that happened very early on:

First, I gave myself to God. “I’m your’s. Let me become whomever I’m suppose to be.” There was so much going on. So much pain. I did not know what to do. I sincerely offered myself to the light. I decided to listen to the wisdom, to life’s feedback, and do and not just try. Through surrender, I gained everything!

Second, I begged God to forgive J. This was after a hellfire nightmare of the eternal torture and torment of J. I begged, on my hands and knees, by the side of my bed, in the complete darkness, for God to forgive her. Pleaded with Him, for J does not deserve such a fate. I realized then, I had forgiven her. When one advocates to the almighty on behalf of their ex, I believe that is a very good sign of letting go and compassion and forgiveness. God, knows infinitely more than I, and will, and is the only one capable of, judging her. Again, letting go and surrendering yields so much!

These are two extremely pivotal moments in my life. I share them with you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
The only thing we really seem to need on this journey is something to love us unconditionally and to give us a hug and say they understand. … I get it, sometimes, through my faith.

I do understand the path you are walking and empathize with the feelings you are experiencing. (((Hug)))

From DnJ’s dark path:

The one’s unconditional love you need is your’s. God already loves you unconditionally. You are seeking your own love of self and strengthening your realization of God’s love. That, is the very creation and fortifying of faith.

DnJ
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/25/21 01:21 PM
Elbereth, so great to hear from you and reflect on your reflections on my reflections! I think many of us here came to these boards thinking we had to wait out a MLC and discovering that in fact there was something there all along that we hadn't seen or that was lurking til the MLC pulled the cover off the dark box. In my case I am kind of glad it went that way because my journey brought me to faith. I am not sure that would have happened if I understood earlier. And thank you for the very kind words; I think I keep coming to the boards with the hope that I can help someone else avoid my path.

DnJ -- thank you for the treatise! I always love to have a convo with you over a good cuppa and a namomeemoonainoo bar.

I think we have gone down this path on a past thread, and I don't know which of us is not fully undestanding the other's full world view or how to get there -- but I see this differently. And I don't know if that's because of the difference in our MLCer or the difference in us or the difference in our actual world view. I often think the latter is quite similar but maybe not. And this can get complicated philosophically for an anonymous support forum, but, in short, I think that the end point of this subjectivity you describe is dangerous. Unless you only mean that this is how you are able to make sense of your W changing so radically and being so unreachable in her new reality. But if you mean, literally, that there are many truths, then no, I must leave you at the crossroads and make my way alone on the One Truth path many miles before I sleep, many miles before I sleep. Because I think that the end point of that idea is, for example, Hitler. And I am sorry if I am repeating something I said on a previous thread, I don't have time to hunt it down, but Hitler had a truth about how to save Germany and he really believed in it and wanted to do something "good" for his country. There was another truth, which saw his truth as pure evil. And only by seeing that as pure evil can we be clear on what we have to do -- e.g., go to war even though war is also evil.

It took me a long time to realize how dangerous my H was. I made many excuses for him in the service of standing for the marriage. Now I know how you can do both, but at that time I was not clear on it. And as a result, I allowed abuse and I allowed my children to witness that. That caused many other problems for my children that I am still trying to mitigate. I do not believe my children are safe around that man, and I do not know how far the abuse can go. I don't want to get into specifics here, but there can be no "your side of the street" or "they will one day figure it out" with some abuse.

There is also the issue of values. When they talk about friends or other people we know who are conducting themselves or their marriages or their parenting in a horrifying way, I am not going to be silent about that. I am also not going to be judgemental and holier-than-thou -- I often tell my daughter, for example, that we can pray for a friend who seems to be in trouble and that that person has her own story to work out in life. But I am not going to just "let them figure out" that stealing is wrong, or that a wild life sexually or using drugs is just another truth. I am going to find a way to show them how to have empathy and compassion for someone who is lost but make it clear that that person is lost. I actually see myself, among my friends and others, as one of the most hands-off parents, but also as one of the few who is very active about teaching values. One of my values is that evil is a real force in this world and that there are many ways to fight it. Forgiveness is the first way to fight it, but there are other ways too, some include physical battle against someone like Hitler -- and some ways allow a vulnerable child to protect him/herself. I want to equip my kids to do that, to make sure they know what it means to walk in the light and what it means to walk in the darkness and how it is possible for any of us, no matter what we have done or how we have hurt someone or destroyed something, to feel remorse and walk a new path. I don't know if Hitler was capable of that, on the extreme end, and I don't know if my H is capable of that. My mistake was equating that hope with our marital finances! I thought I couldn't protect one without protecting the other -- I thought I could preserve my hope that he could still be who I thought he was and that that meant I had to sacrifice protecting my home, my bank account, my credit cards, all that we shared on every level -- and we all know how that went.

There is an article called, "Beyond Narcissism – To Behold the Face of God," that offers a path through that mess for me. I don't think it's an easy question. There is a huge mosaic at my church that shows Christ descending into h$ll, and all these people suffering there. One of them looks exactly like H, so much so that I often can't look at that part of the artwork, but I pray there all the time, thinking about what it means to be in h$ll -- here on earth or after our time here. We know that to be the absence of God, or if you are not a person of faith, the absence of love, and we can all say our MLCer is in that way in h$ll already. I want my children to have compassion for that miserable state but I don't want them to be confused about it either. I don't think we should ever trash talk the MLCer or anyone else, but that we have to find a balance that is based on compassion.

And I will also leave you with a Chesterton quote --

What we suffer from today is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays, the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt–the Divine Reason…

We are on the road to producing a race of man too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table.

―G.K. Chesterton
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/29/21 02:08 AM
Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by DnJ
I agree and believe there is one truth. However, I am not God. I cannot see all ends. I therefore cannot see nor come close to understanding all paths. I only have my wee window and view of the world. My truth of things.

One Truth. God’s plan.

We are but a cog in the grand design. Singly important, yet incapable of conceiving of the entire tapestry that is being woven. Each of us sees our part and our view of the One Truth.

The ability to validate and see other people’s truths comes from the very avenue of wisdom’s birth - questions.

I ask near continually, “what if I’m wrong?”. That humble admittance of my lack of understanding of the grand plan probably brings me closer to its true wisdom. We all see only part. Through accepting our own limited view and realizing others views as valid and true, can one piece together more and more of the whole.

I question my view all the time. I listen to others; listen to the world; listen to the whispers of creation. One learns when one questions. One learns when one listens. God knows how many times I’ve altered and grown in this process. How many times my truth has evolved. That, in and of itself, is proof that one cannot know the entire One Truth. Everyone carries a different part of that whole. Growth needs one’s willingness to change.

Originally Posted by Gerda
A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays, the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt–the Divine Reason…

I believe in God’s plan.

What I doubt is that my view, knowledge, or truth is so complete that I can forgo considering someone else’s view or truth.

I doubt, or question, my understanding of the divine reason. I don’t doubt divine reason.

That’s life’s journey. Doubt and discovery. The journey is more important than the destination. Always has been.

Oh, by the way, most times my questioning attitude confirms and reaffirms the path I’m walking - compassion, empathy, forgiveness. It’s perhaps hard to explain how to follow such faith and yet not be blinded by faith.

Originally Posted by Gerda
But if you mean, literally, that there are many truths, then no, I must leave you at the crossroads and make my way alone on the One Truth path many miles before I sleep, many miles before I sleep. Because I think that the end point of that idea is, for example, Hitler.

I believe Hitler was not capable of seeing other truths. He and many were blinded by one truth.

If we are to part ways, I’ve enjoyed and been blessed by your company.

My love and respect

DnJ
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/29/21 04:11 PM
Part ways?! !!!

I almost fell off my perch when I read that and had to look through my post to see where you could have found that idea!

That was just a METAPHOR, Green Cape! I meant leaving you at the crossroads of one truth versus many. We are two philosophers discoursing on truth. We will keep strolling through this Forum (PUN INTENDED!!!!!) discoursing even if I can't convince you or you can't convince me of this one particular thing.

In short, I meant that usually we are like the parents offering slightly different paths to the same idea to our confused children, but that this time we might actually have a really different idea and yet on those separate paths are still both kind and loving and God-loving and trying to guide our kids to the light, whether the kids are the literal kids or the LBS newbies taking their baby steps towards clarity.

(And you did not convince me. I mean, you didn't need to convince me of your greatness, that we know I know and all know. But I haven't figured out how to make my point clearer. I can only say that we have to read the world. We have to read the MLCer. (And of course we have to read Hitler or we end up like 95% of Germans, helping the project move forward out of confusion about the truth.) We must forgive the MLCer for our sake, his/her sake and our kids' sake. But we have to read the MLC clearly -- his/her actions, rhetoric, sense of justice, parenting, etc -- or we'll end up like.... well, like Gerda, 2012 - 2019. Maybe Gerda 1995 - 2019. Not to mention Gerda 2019-2021 trying to dig her way out of the outcome of 2014-2019.)

My last few posts have not been understood in the way I intended. Cause for reflection. Since writing is my thing. As well as rehabbing wrecks. I haven't reported on that in a while and sorely wish I could send photos. The cottage is coming along sloooooowly but nicely. Alongside the wreck of Gerda, slowly rehabbed.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/29/21 05:00 PM
self compassion - it's real, and necessary.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/31/21 01:53 AM
Hello Gerda

I’m glad it was meant as a metaphor.

I misunderstood given the force of your assertion. Never, in any part of my life to this point - online, IRL, anonymous, face to face - has my life’s journey, my believes and values, been equated to Hitler. Never!

Gerda, your words hold a certain power to me. I respect you and your views. And I listen. And your words are having an affect. Something will be strengthened, or altered, or discarded. I’m not sure which it will be. Still considering.

At 53, I do know how rare my world view is. How almost singular I am with my beliefs and convictions. It has served me very well in life. The middle ground. Looking to all sides. Most interesting solutions and resolutions are possible from that vantage point.

For what it’s worth, I do realize, and believe I understand, your view. You were well spoken and clear. Sorry my post didn’t convey that.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/31/21 06:22 PM
What a sad turn of events!

Such misunderstanding between friends with a long history.

I have had this philosophical argument about the endpoint of subjectivity with my crowd of intellectual friends many times. Usually a great evening with plenty of pounding on the table and ordering more drinks or cake.

Using a true villain or a true saint as an example is a good device to make an idea crystal clear in a discussion like that.

Did I ever tell you that my dad is a Holocaust survivor? I do not play around with the idea of Hitler!

How depressing to think that DnJ saw me or me seeing him this way!

Too many misunderstandings on my thread! Time to take a break!

Lots of love.

P.S. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I just thought we were having a good talk and don't think that would have happened if there was a table and not an internet between us.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/31/21 07:19 PM
Back in Usenet days (circa 1990), whenever someone invoked Hitler to make an argument, everyone would point out Godwin's Law--that any discussion that continues sufficiently long inevitably ends in Nazi references, and that Nazi references are too emotionally charged for there to be a reasonable discussion. The side first referencing him would be declared the "loser", there would be a chuckle, and the topic was closed as the conversation turned to other topics. You two both seem kind and well-intentioned. May this misunderstanding be quickly forgotten.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 10/31/21 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gerda
I just thought we were having a good talk and don't think that would have happened if there was a table and not an internet between us.

I agree!

Oftentimes our conversation gets lost. Not such a strange thing considering something like 50% of our meaning comes from what is emoted rather than the actual words.

The gal in my head that is you. How I hear you, was incongruent with the cold text. I am positive if we were actually sitting across from each other we’d have a grand discussion. Of course Nanaimo bar and coffee with heavy cream and sugar would be shared as well.

Originally Posted by Gerda
How depressing to think that DnJ saw me or me seeing him this way!

That’s why I inquired. The Gerda I know, or believe I know, sees me differently.

I’ve reached into your life and wrote directly to your son. I am honoured to be granted such privilege. And you and I have shared many a discussion. Do realize I am invested for those I care about.

I’d saw my irrational response was off the mark. And, I’m glad you corrected me.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Too many misunderstandings on my thread! Time to take a break!

Not that this is a vote or anything; you can do as you see fit. I’d rather you not. Especially over this.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Thank you. I suppose I was probably hurting.

Oddly, I was more confused and questioned my values.

Again, text does at times lead to misunderstandings. My apologies as well.

(((Hug)))

Order us another cake and round of drinks my dear friend. We still have many discussions to be had I’m sure.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 12/24/21 03:27 PM
Merry Christmas Gerda

May light shine upon you and your’s.

Love
D
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 02/01/22 10:36 PM
Hi Gerda.

I was thinking about you today and wanted to reach out and say hello. I hope things are well with you and that you had a good holiday season. Happy lunar new year today! Its the year of the tiger!

Hugs to you and your kiddos!!

-Sam
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 02/14/22 01:49 AM
Originally Posted by sjohns6
Hi Gerda.

I was thinking about you today and wanted to reach out and say hello. I hope things are well with you and that you had a good holiday season. Happy lunar new year today! Its the year of the tiger!

Hugs to you and your kiddos!!

-Sam

It always gives a spring to my step when you check in on me, Sam! Thank you!

Update in brief — I’ve been doing a lot of my creative work, a lot of writing and plenty of bookings in the other creative work that I do (but will remain vague about here). I don't have time for it but I am trying to do it before I have time so that I can return to what I meant to be before I lost myself. I’ve been pushing my rental biz farther too, and still a long way to go before I can quit all my day jobs but definitely making progress. I’m still not interested in dating and have no time as I am still totally on my own as provider for the kids and still embroiled in the world’s stupidest divorce. A guy friend of mine went to talk to my H to try to get him to resolve, and he came back saying that it would never ever happen because H wants to destroy me and thinks he will get “justice” at a trial. I still periodically ask H to follow the orders we are supposed to follow to resolve, but nothing happens. I'm still pro se and still doing better than any of my lawyers ever did. I had to file to change custody because of all the terrible things that continue, and I had to file an appeal of the judge’s refusal to grant me interim child support, so this month I am spending hours writing the brief! So much of my life on this divorce bulls** and it’s so incredibly stupid and pointless, as we already have a 50-50 split agreement and I’ve only asked for a custody change that puts what we are doing for years now in writing. The only thing holding this back is that H won't accept an appraisal, not any appraisal, though this was our agreement. But I don't think it's really that, I think that's just the way that he can prolong this and keep me tied to him. We are literally waiting on nothing. Sometimes it makes me despair that so much of my creativity and light is being sucked into this pointless endless divorce when I am so willing to lose a lot to end it, but mostly I just try to keep walking and accept that this is my reality. We do have a new judge, and she is from family court, so I have a tiny flare of hope that she will finally grant me interim child support. No, I still do not receive a dime in any kind of support or help with housing or medical or camp or anything at all. We still aren’t scheduled for a trial but I think if my H actually had to cough up some money each month for our children, no matter how small, he might stop dragging this out and just abide by our agreement to resolve the whole thing.

I remain the poster child for getting finances settled the second you can — finances have nothing to do with standing for your marriage, newbies! But not settling them will be a bear claw trap tight tight around your ankle for years, like Gerda, lone wolf with her pups.

Not dating. Don’t think I will ever believe a man could love me and don't have any interest in that right now, just enough time to mother my kids, work and do my art.

....

I’m glad SJohn got me to post as I did want to write a last post. Lent is coming, when I try to give up all screen media including this, but I don’t know if I will be back either way, at least not very often.

These past months I tried a few times to post updates but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I was so freaked out about the post suggesting that someone could "win" or "lose" an argument by invoking Hitler, or that we shouldn't refer to Hitler lest it offend someone. My father is a Holocaust survivor and I have spent all my life contemplating evil and goodness through that lens — what it would take to follow Hitler or allow Hitler or be a neighbor who was too afraid of Hitler to help a neighbor or what part of myself is like what part of him, etc. Likewise Pol Pot, Genghis Kahn, Mugabe, Kim Jong Un and the very long list of obvious incarnations of evil, not to mention the even longer list of less obvious incarnations. Certainly I have thought about it a lot during these past nine years of my H committing so many evil acts in such a prolonged way.

I think it’s quite dangerous actually not to talk about evil and think about evil as often as we can. It’s the only way to know it in ourselves and in others. I spoke with my dad about our terror of silence recently with Maus being banned in one of our Southern states, and the teaching of other “uncomfortable” parts of history, including black history, being banned. Recently at my daughter’s school, a Shakespeare production was cancelled because people were too scared to allow discussion of the racism in the play.

I don’t see this as political but as foundational to our humanity. So I was freaked out about the response to the discussion and I was even more freaked out about the silence that followed it.

I’m going to post below an excerpt from a writing on conscience by a much smarter person than I if anyone reading this wants to know more.

My friends here, you know where I live, and if you are ever there, I would be so glad to see you. Sending you all love and courage in all your days of facing evil and welcoming goodness and other joys. Newbies, learn from my story!

Whether something (evil or good) is recognized or not depends too on the will, which can block the way to recognition or lead to it. It is dependent, that is to say, on an already formed moral character which can either continue to deform or be further purified. On this level, the level of judgment (conscientia in the narrower sense), it can be said that even the erroneous conscience binds.

This statement is completely intelligible from the rational tradition of scholasticism. No one may act against his convictions... But the fact that the conviction a person has come to certainly binds in the moment of acting does not signify a canonization of subjectivity. It is never wrong to follow the convictions one has arrived at—in fact, one must do so. But it can very well be wrong to have come to such askew convictions in the first place, by having stifled the protest of the anamnesis of being. The guilt lies then in a different place, much deeper—not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience, but in the neglect of my being which made me deaf to the internal promptings of truth.

For this reason, criminals of conviction like Hitler and Stalin are guilty. These crass examples should not serve to put us at ease but should rouse us to take seriously the earnestness of the plea: “Free me from my unknown guilt” (Ps 19:13).
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/09/22 04:14 AM
Breaking my Lent fast to post tonight as I am in such despair.

Last summer when D cut off contact with H, I filed for a change in custody. I felt I had no choice, had been waiting for divorce to go through and then try family court where they care more about kids, but D was punching herself in the face and talking about self harm, and H and his L were threatening to take me to court, so I filed for the change -- just to change visitation to once a week and to have a therapist or social worker speak for the kids if they didn't want to go. And to get child support and legal custody.

Judge took forever, finally had a conference in the fall and by then my kids had both started seeing H again a little bit, after his father died of Covid. D regressed horribly as soon as she started seeing him again but I was thankful that she only wanted to see him a few hours a week. I knew them seeing him would weaken my case but tried to leave it in God's hands.

Judge called us for a second conference; she had never done that before, so it seemed like a sign she was actually reading everything for once. My papers were very thorough and solid evidence of all the horrible reasons I was trying to change custody.

Judge gets moved off matrimonial and we get a new judge. I thought this had to be a good thing, no one could be as bad as mine.

Remote conference today. I was determined to be as quiet as possible and let them do their usual yelling, so I could start fresh with this judge.

It did not matter. She was hell bent on putting me in my place. H lied about what had happened, lied about how often he sees the kids, and Judge did not care about me getting no child support or anything I tried to say.

She rejected every single part of it. When I said I had teenagers who would not follow the visitation schedule, she said, "Are you a grown-up or not? Are you in charge or not?" and threatened me that she would do far worse if I interfered with visitation. She muted me when I tried to ask about child support.

And that would have been enough to bear. But then she announced she was awarding them legal fees. She said I had to pay his lawyer's bill for that motion sequence. $7000

I called the pro se office and told them what happened. They were shocked. They said my only option is to write a motion asking for her to review facts she missed -- e.g., there is no money in bank account and I obviously can't afford to pay a lawyer or I would have one.

The only thing I managed to get through was to corner them into agreeing to have the property appraised in order to push forward the buyout we agreed upon.

I feel so so so so bad today. I cried all day. That feeling of not being heard or seen or understand, of knowing who I am and what I am trying to do, the dozens of attempts I made to enforce the agreement we made to resolve, all of them ignored. And still to be seen as whatever that judge must think to do something like that. My last judge was terrible, she never read any documents or help H accountable for anything. But she would never ever have ordered me to cover their legal fees. She knew what H's lawyer was.

Today's judge told me I had failed to prove a change of circumstances though the was a GLOBAL PANDEMIC, he quit his job and opened a restaurant, our daughter was threatening suicide and both children had cut off contact with H. This was not enough proof of a change of circumstances for her.

I had paper taped over the faces of H and his L but still could see their smug delight.

I feel as bad as after bomb drop. Total despair.

I don't even know why. Nothing that much has changed, it's just $7000 and I will keep trying to get him to resolve as I have been all this time. But that feeling of being misunderstood, of knowing who I am and of facing people who think the opposite of me, despite the facts on the page and the story right in front of them of me sitting there just asking for child support and to follow the resolution we had agreed on two years ago, being fined $7000 while H pays nothing, no child support, no help with anything, has spent three years dissipating our asset on legal fees and now I am asked to pay his lawyer as punishment for filing a motion to protect my kids and try to get him to stop declaring our kids on his tax return, to stop taking the child tax credit. It seems like BD all over again, this disbelief that someone could see things so wrongly, and the confusion of trying to do what I can to protect my kids and being punished for it.

I don't want to violate my fast too much but I am so low today, like the early days when I couldn't eat or function, so I thought I had better reach out.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/09/22 04:49 AM
Oh Gerda.

I am so sorry. All of this. It’s unfathomable. There are so many parts of this whole experience that are unfair and frustrating. My heart aches for you. I wish I understood the legal aspects to offer advice or encouragement. But I don’t. I feel like I can’t offer much at all, other than to let you know I see your pain, I am sitting here with you in as much as I can be, and I am so sorry. Sending you lots of hugs and love. And prayers that things turn around soon for you. And that these negatives are offset by some pretty amazing positives.

El
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/09/22 12:56 PM
Good Morning Gerda

I hope today looks better than yesterday.

I’m sorry your daughter is having such difficulties. The poor girl sounds so hurt.

How is son doing?

The ongoing legal situation sounds convoluted. You must be exhausted of it.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Today's judge told me I had failed to prove a change of circumstances…

There is a legal requirement, a burden of proof, needed to show that the existing arrangements require altering. One part of that is illustrating proving that the current circumstances were unforeseeable and not covered under the original agreement. And of course, the proof that the current situation is causing the present harmful or detrimental situation is necessary as well. Along with other items. And still, even if all that is met, it only means things might be changed.

What one knows and believes; and what one can prove in court are very different things. Legal requirements are strict and need to be met. I understand H is benefitting within the system and hurting you. He has the power of an existing and agreed upon arrangement between the two of you, and you have the uphill struggle to prove otherwise.

I am sorry you are in such despair. To break your lent shows its depth. (((Hug)))

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/11/22 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by Elbereth
Oh Gerda.

I am so sorry. All of this. It’s unfathomable. There are so many parts of this whole experience that are unfair and frustrating. My heart aches for you. I wish I understood the legal aspects to offer advice or encouragement. But I don’t. I feel like I can’t offer much at all, other than to let you know I see your pain, I am sitting here with you in as much as I can be, and I am so sorry. Sending you lots of hugs and love. And prayers that things turn around soon for you. And that these negatives are offset by some pretty amazing positives.

El

Thank you so much for these kind words, Elbereth -- it really helped a lot to feel your care. The worst part is always the loneliness, and I think that's what hit me so hard about the hearing with the new judge. She hadn't taken the time to look over any of the case, any of the three years of papers and admitted not having read my response papers. But then did something extremely unusual in penalizing me for filing a motion, by forcing me to pay his legal bills. It has a chilling effect on me, thinking that I can't advocate for me or my kids out of fear she will do that again; and also because my H in his delusion is going to trial mostly to get me to pay his 150K legal bill. Before this hearing, I had no fear of that because I "knew" no judge would tell a single mom with no lawyer to pay the legal bills of this absolute total deadbeat dad who refused to follow our agreements to resolve for two years. Now I don't know.

And DnJ, thank you also for checking in on me. I really was hoping for your hug. I am sorry that I have not read your thread in ages and hope all is okay. About proof -- you are right that it's all a wild card even with proof but I felt I had no choice when my daughter was threatening self harm and engaging in some mild self harm in addition to seeming like she was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I assure you I had beyond ample proof, I had literally 75 pages of exhibits of proof of changes of circumstances of all kinds. The judge openly admitted to not reading my response papers, saying she had not received them from the previous judge and muted me when I asked why I couldn't get interim child support or why H could claim our kids on his taxes without providing a penny of support and not having seen them for that entire time. Honestly, it was bizarre. Or biblical -- e.g., Pharaoh.

I wonder if I am starting to sound a little crazy, it must seem like so much bad luck in the court system has to be something I am eliciting. I have wondered this at times. (And it's a pattern for me, to feel that who I truly am is not getting through even though I feel I am so clear and honest. Even here on these boards.) I do think pro se litigants irk the judges except the kindest ones. But other than that I think it was just bad luck. I have a friend here in my city who went through a similar situation with an MLCer who did many even crazier things than my H. His judge was very kind, very thorough and laser-focused on the children. His experience was the complete opposite of mine. Someone told me before my first judge was assigned that I would be okay representing myself unless I got Judge X because Judge X did not care about children (and had never been married or had children) and spent her summers in a famous nearby vacation spot with all the high powered divorce attorneys. I got Judge X. And it seems like the new judge who replaced her in divorce court also does not care about children. H's L told her that I only filed for a change in custody to delay this process, and that is why she penalized me.

Today I got one of those insane texts from H, which I have not gotten in a while with him telling me to stop alienating our children and do as the judge had "implored" me to do, to ensure a close relationship between a daughter and her father. He has never admitted he did anything wrong that could have caused that, never wondered why she still doesn't want to see him more than once a week. But he got her to write him all these creepy lovey texts and then he tried to show them to the judge. In his text today he told me he had the texts to prove that D12 wants to be with him and that I am keeping them apart. He never asked what caused this sweet and innocent little girl just a year ago to threaten she would kill herself if she had to see him again or why she has not wanted to sleep over at his place. I have not seen my MLCer get our judge on his side since the early days, before she knew him a little more. This new judge took on day one believing all the lies -- at one point she even said to me, "Mrs. X, your husband is under oath!" as if shocked that I would doubt his word.

But the loss of the custody request is bearable to me. It's the fact that she punished me for trying and that she set a precendent of me paying his legal bills.

Anyway this is all a lot of blah-blah-blah. I know all the details are kind of pointless, I have to find a way to get back on my path, which is looking for the fastest evacuation route out.

My message to any who are reading along is to remember -- if your MLCer is a narcissist, they don't want to finish divorcing you. They want to prolong the drama for as long as possible and to look for ways to get other people to hurt you when you go dark and they can't hurt you anymore. They will use your kids, your finances, the court system, anything they can. They will convince people that you are a bad person and the cause of all their suffering. I have sent dozens of settlement offers to H, his L and even tried his friend and his mom once. Yet he is still trying to go to trial to get me to pay his legal bills by claiming that I delayed this process and "forced" him to keep litigating. He is still trying to get out of our buy out agreement and to force a third-party sale, even though he will make less this way than accepting the buy-out he agreed on two years ago. He wants to see us pushed out, he can't stand that I would stay here and keep the kids in their home. He will literally make 30% less on a third-party sale after taxes and broker fees, etc. He has spent 150K I think on legal fees to try to get me out, two years after I agreed to a 50-50 split on a buy out. It's just not about any pragmatism for these NPD types of MLCers. It's about destroying you.

For the most part I am still trying to walk in the light and to pursue my dreams and to just extricate myself from this situation at a huge loss. But this last conference made me finally understand why people sometimes go for blood in a divorce trial. When someone tortures you for this long, wants to see you suffer this much and will keep the kids in tied in knots for so long in so many ways, you start to want revenge. I will keep battling that in myself and pray that God will keep me from that temptation and just help me get out as fast as I can and help me find other ways to provide for my kids than trying to get anything out of this terrible man or this Bleak House level court.

Will go back to Lent fast now after this MARATHON post but thanks to the two friends who delivered some love here, it helped a lot, truly. And I will try to check in after Lent and see your replies, if any, then.

Love, light and courage -- and CLARITY -- to all.
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/12/22 02:58 AM
Dearest G, I am so sorry that I am late to reply. I am even more sorry that you have been put through the wringer again (and again, and again, ad nauseam). You do not deserve this. You did not earn this. You are good and want recognition for the good you have done and the hard work you have performed with your life and your children and like all humans, you just want validation.

The judge didn't give you this. But that does not mean a speck of dust in the universe, because she is only one human among almost 8 billion on this planet. Sadly, her judgment has an impact on you. And ripples outwards to effect so many arenas of your life (familial, financial, a sense of personal safety). I ache for you. And wish to steady you in the troughs of the oncoming waves.

For some reason unknown to us all, the universe, God, whom- or whatever, has determined that you are to experience these lessons. Unfair as they may be. As much as we all cringe (and cry) with sympathy at your disastrous, horrible situation. Personally, I think these lessons are there to make you even more magical that you already are. Because, if you can live through what you have lived through and still get out of bed, and still love your children, and still be a human on this earth, you must be made of some sort of magic.

So what's left to learn? What will you do with this? I say you become a master in jiu-jistu. Deflect all this wrong by being an impermeable, magical creature of epic proportions. Nothing can hurt you. You pick yourself up, dust off those pretty britches and sally-forth into the life you deserve, the one you have been slowly brick-by-brick building for yourself. Those judges and that evil ex of yours can take away your physical wealth and attempt to confuse the affection of your children (not very well, I may add), but they can only take away your heart and soul and being if you let them. Don't let them, G.

Win by not winning. Win by accord of honoring your own life and fulfilling the destiny you were put here to pursue, irregardless of the obstacles put in your path. Win despite the hardship and horrific abuse and awful judges. Because you are so mighty. And I think deep down, you know it.

I know it. I see it.

Lots of love,
Sage
Posted By: Eagle3 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 03/16/22 11:02 AM
Dear Gerda,

TBH, really shocked by your update. When will this nightmare end?

I can do nothing more than offer my support to you and I hope from the bottom of my heart that things will improve shortly.

Sending lots of hugs!!!
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/19/22 09:24 PM
Gerda,

It's been a while! I hope you are doing ok. It looks like you might be cutting back on your posting, but I hate the idea of completely losing touch with you. I have an email address that I have not used in years. I thought maybe I could put it here, and if you want, you could shoot me an email to say hi. I hope that doesn't break any rules. My email is sjohns63@msn.com. I hope to hear from you. And I hope your situation has settled down a little.

-Sam
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/21/22 03:37 AM
Hello, Friends. I have been working so much I haven't had time for an update post or even to pop in on anyone else's thread. I hope everyone is doing okay.

Today would have been my 22nd wedding annivesary.

Actually, it is my 22nd wedding anniversary. I am still in divorce purgatory. But I start to think that this year it will finally happen.

sjohn/Sam -- wow, that is really really nice of you to say. It is always astonishing to hear things like that, not that I hear things like that almost ever. I think your post will get deleted but I copied the info already.

I will write an update very soon but wanted to just say to Sage how incredibly powerful and meaningful and amazing was your message to me. I read it right then but thought I should go back to my Lent fast and not reply. I will treasure that post forever in so many ways. I printed it out and sent a copy to two of my best friends and they agreed that you are a woman we would want to know. Please copy sjohns msn and crumb me a way!

DnJ, yes, you got it exactly. I was that low. These days I am not that low. As you say, feelings are fleeting. Or rather, I thought less about what caused that feeling and it mostly went away. Though I watched some of the Depp trial, somehow very cathartic or comforting to me, and I must say that watching Amber H is exactly like watching my H.

And Eagle, thank you too for your compassion. I read yours back when you wrote it too and it made me feel so supported just that you knew how sad I was.

I will write an update soon but for now -- you will all be glad to know I hired a lawyer. It's a funny story of how I found him, for next post. That last horrific conference during Lent showed me that I would not be able to think clearly enough in court anymore to be an effective lawyer for myself. I am really glad I was pro se for so long and I did quite well at it but this new judge is too much for me. I have no savings left, all went to lawyer, but I am happy to not have to work so hard anymore and to have space in my head not taken up with anxiety about writing motions and answering motions and preparing appeals and preparing for a trial.

XO from Gerda
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/21/22 12:35 PM
Good Morning Gerda

It’s good to hear from you. How is the cabin? Any vacation plans / ideas for this year? I suspect son has his driver’s license by now and wants a sports car. smile

Wow, 22 years. Weird being married and not, isn’t it?

Originally Posted by Gerda
That last horrific conference during Lent showed me that I would not be able to think clearly enough in court anymore to be an effective lawyer for myself. I am really glad I was pro se for so long and I did quite well at it but this new judge is too much for me. I have no savings left, all went to lawyer, but I am happy to not have to work so hard anymore and to have space in my head not taken up with anxiety about writing motions and answering motions and preparing appeals and preparing for a trial.

You directly faced and fought the storm for a long time. Rest a bit and let your L do the work.

Originally Posted by Gerda
you will all be glad to know I hired a lawyer.

I’m more glad about:

Originally Posted by Gerda
…I am happy…

I’m really glad to read how that burden is lifted from upon you. Let go as it were. It’s so wonderful having one’s mental real estate their’s to do with as they please.

Hope you are having a great day Gerda.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/24/22 03:07 PM
Thanks for stopping by, DnJ! You are right about the burden being lifted though the real burden is the divorce process, and that is harder to crack. I have really made huge strides in living a life I want to live, but it will be so amazing when I am not longer burdened in my thoughts and in how I spend my time and energy by this incredibly stupid and pointless never-ending process. There is literally nothing to argue about and he just keeps it going. I have realized that H likes being tied to me. I have offered him so many times so many deals that are not equitable to me and I know he is in debt and really needs money but he digs in. It makes no rational sense and it's actually a lot worse for him financially not to take my offers but I can see now that he wants to stretch this out as long as possible just to be able to exert this power over my life.

It's really sad actually to consider a soul in that much torment. I do consider that when I am being my best self. My other selves are not so charitable but honestly I would never think of the guy except that my children are once again pipelining the events of his world and his restaurant literally five blocks away, all our old customers and staff who knew what he did now successfully won over as customers, though one of them told he is very very weird. But before the kids were seeing him, I really had so much peace. It's a little harder to deal with the reports but I try to find a balance between letting them talk about what's on their minds and in their lives and being a support on the one hand and on the other having some boundaries of my own so I don't have to hear absolutely everything.

Both kids are more confused and unsettled since they renewed contact but my son is less confused. He asks me a lot about personality disorders and it seems clear he sees his father as he is though he does not want to cut off contact entirely. He is still struggling in all the same ways, but with more clarity and self reflection and lately he talks to me a lot if I go on those late night walks with him, and I just feel so lucky that he confides in me so much. Trying to enjoy every minute before he leaves for college, though he doesn't always make the enjoyment come easy!

And yes, he got his license yesterday in fact and immediately asked if I would rent a car for him to drive around with his friends. He still doesn't understand why I keep saying no! I am thinking of finally buying a crappy old car that he won't want to drive much as I do let him use my rental cars a little bit, with me in the car, but even that is totally not allowed and makes me so nervous. Where I live is really a crazy place to drive!

My D is struggling so much more now that she has been seeing H again. So much rage and feelings of self hatred. She is so mean to me pretty much ALL the time, and digging deep for patience is my constant practice, though I don't always succeed. Yesterday she screamed and cried for hours about how he doesn't love her and how she wished he'd never say it because it's a lie, he just leaves her sitting there for 8 hours a day at the restaurant and even disappears at times and when he is there is drinking all day. She became obsessed with getting skinny after all those years of him commenting on her body, and she lost 40 pounds in like 5 months. Trying to get her to eat healthy has turned into trying to ensure she doesn't starve herself but this also carries a huge risk of fighting about food so it's so hard to navigate. I am trying to encourage her to get that confident boundary-building ability back but it will be a lot easier when I am not under the microscope with this horrible judge and can actually encourage my D to do what she needs to do for herself. I feel so bad for her, she has changed so much, but knowing that my S16 slowly came out of it helps me to remember that she will too.

The cabin is great but oh so much work needed there. I have so many electric questions for you! : ) But no time to go through it all right now. I have been working on the next door rehab project and it's now 6 months past the date we though it would be done. My contractor is awesome but only works on weekends and there has been so many interruptions for illness, supply chain, blizzards, etc., so we are STILL not done. But he is very trustworthy and amazing at what he does and it's impossible to find anyone up there so I just try to keep him happy and moving forward. But when it's done it will be great and then I can go back to dealing with my own cabin more. Gotta do something about those carpenter bees this year!

The thing about that is that I decided to start a flip business about 18 months ago, and this actually happened. I did it. Not perfectly, not funded properly, lots of mess, but I did it. I am sure this is the first of many and I really enjoy it. And in my creative work, I am also doing a lot of projects now and feel good about those too. LBS Folks -- START NOW! FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND START! It actually happens if you start now and if you are willing to do a lot of things at once until finances allow you to weed out the things you don't like. I am not there yet, so I sacrifice too much sleep, but getting closer.

And that's all I have time to post for now.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/26/22 02:29 PM
Good Morning Gerda

Yes H is dragging out the divorce for his own irrational reasons. I agree, there is nothing left to squabble over, yet he persists. Does he still have the same lawyer for all these last years? He fired like four of them before settling in on this one I think. Wow, H’s legal bill will be ginormous.

It’s so good to read that you, under these trying circumstances, made huge strides in your life. Living a life you want to live and how you want to live. I am so happy for you. Lord knows you had a life thrust upon you for quite some time.

My goodness, son going to college. Yes, that will be upon you before you realize. It’s ok if you don’t enjoy every minute, kids certainly do push and test us. Lol. By the way, years later, like when they are 23 and getting married, you definitely enjoy(ed) every minute when looking back. Everything happens for a reason; all the stress has purpose. Have faith, the dividends are worth the investment.

Son’s confiding in you, those late night walks, him seeing rather clearly, is a most welcomed thing to read. Good job Mom! You are the role model. Gently encouraging and guiding.

I’m sorry daughter is struggling again.

Originally Posted by Gerda
My D is struggling so much more now that she has been seeing H again. So much rage and feelings of self hatred. She is so mean to me pretty much ALL the time, and digging deep for patience is my constant practice, though I don't always succeed.

(((Hugs)))

Daughter is lashing out to her safe loving parent - you.

She cannot risk showing her anger towards Dad, to Dad. She cannot risk loosing him, yet. She will grow up, and find her way. Just like son did.

Her feelings of self hatred and rage are her reactions to Dad, turned inward. Unfortunately, and sadly, a common emotional mechanism for the young. As much as it hurts you, daughter lashing out to you is a good thing, it’s a release and doesn’t keep it all bottled up. Absolutely misdirected, for sure, as Dad is the real target, yet she has to start somewhere. Dig deep for patience, realize daughter needs someone to talk to, and she is talking to you in her own way right now. Soon it will become talking with you, instead of to you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Yesterday she screamed and cried for hours about how he doesn't love her and how she wished he'd never say it because it's a lie, he just leaves her sitting there for 8 hours a day at the restaurant and even disappears at times and when he is there is drinking all day.

It’s a very difficult process and realization to accept; the loss of a Dad (or a Mom). That ideal, that vision, that loving parent that all kids deserve. Such a hard road to journey for these teens/children.

The un-sugarcoated truth. My four kids all had to let, had to watch, their Mom die - inside of themselves. They had to let go and stop struggling against what is. That woman, their loving mother, is not here. Yes, there is a woman before them, and she is very much different. And in horrible ways. Acceptance of such a thing is a painful process.

Grief. The journey to emotionally accepting and understanding a loss. Daughter is seeing it and working it out. Your job dear Gerda, is the unsung one. The task not realized by others who haven’t walked this path. A most difficult rewarding road - remaining consistent, patient, loving, with gentle guidance.

Very good advice on starting. Start now! It doesn’t need to be perfect, it just needs one’s willingness to start. Your cabin, a flip business, a rehab project, and many creative works; sounds like you are living a great life.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/31/22 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Does he still have the same lawyer for all these last years? He fired like four of them before settling in on this one I think. Wow, H’s legal bill will be ginormous.

That was me, DnJ!

H has had the same L the whole time, and this guy is trapped now because even he got suckered into going into debt with H. H does that with everyone -- his AP, his business partner, his parents, and of course Brave Gerda. His L hasn't been paid in probably two years. That's why he is so driven to force a sale. He can't put a lien on a buyout!

Why I had three L's before --

My first lawyer never filed any papers at all, let alone on time, then would call me shrieking and crying about her own H trying to commit suicide as she was also going through a D. So I had to fire her, though she was an amazing L for a friend of mine.

Lawyer two I knew because he helped me once with some other legal matter, came to a meeting with me, and he took a divorce call during the meeting and sounded good. He would have been good, had he not taken all the cases of his mentor, who had just had a heart attack. He never filed for child support, never filed for sole use, just charged me to get into screaming matches with H's L. I finally had to fire him because I was literally paying him to do nothing.

I was going to go pro se but decided to try one more time -- once again, someone highly recommended. This guy was $450 an hour, and he seemed to take a full hour to do what took me pro se 10 minutes to do. Over the 2.5 months I retained him, I left with a bill for 20K and NOTHING HAD HAPPENED except he did manage to get an agreement on sole use, but only by me paying H MORE per month.

I was ready to go pro se either way but then Covid hit and it was either pay a lawyer or keep food on the table. So I've been pro se since March 2020 and I did much better for myself than any of these L's, and paid no one. Though the toll on me with time, stress, anxiety and lost work etc has finally become too big of a cost.

I mentioned I would tell the funny story of how I found my new L --

Every time someone says, "Oh, I have the BEST accountant," or "you will LOVE my pest control company/hair stylist/favorite pizza shop," it seems to NEVER be true. So this time around, I just did a google search and read reviews. I picked one guy who had good reviews and made an appointment. On the way to the apppointment a few days later, I searched for his address on my phone and the search went directly to "(my city)SCUMBAG LAWYERS." I'm not kidding. It was all about how he slept with a client, with a lot of extremely gross details, and then she restored her marriage and she and her H sued him!

I almost gave up at that point, but I just knew I was not going to be able to handle this new judge with a clear head, and I was so TIRED -- so I googled again, and literally chose the guy with good reviews who seemed to have the nicest smile and mentioned his kids on his website. Then I had an appointment, and i LOVED this guy. He is totally pragmatic, kind, smart, funny. Turns out he knows H's L -- he told me that he knew him when he worked with a partner who was even more of a sleazeball; this partner stole money from H's L and kicked him out of the firm in some kind of dastardly way.

With my new L, I stick only to the most important facts, and so does he. We spend almost no billable hours going over anything, just trying to get this one order enforced and that's it. He started trying to negotiate with H's L, and I shut that down. I told him we are following the order or going to trial, no more negotiating as it is pointless. And he is a guy who loves to just laser focus on getting a resolution.

So that is the story. And I think it will be a long while before I post again, no one except you, DnJ, even really stops by my thread anymore and I am too tired of my own journey to read the new stories, though I hope all my threads might help someone new and would love to know if they did.

And if any of my old friends is reading this, I would love to hear from my friends on this board IRL. (GORDIE WHERE ARE YOU?!) (And SBJ and Grace and May and Cardinal and Sage and Eagle and Wayfarer and aaaaaaallllll.)

Thanks for all the support, DnJ. Hope your life continues on that gorgeous path through the literal and figurative trees and for some reason I still have some hope for J and you, worked for Hosea..... And you really are this man -- and I have replaced "law" with "Way," as in the Dao, as in the Way and the Life, as in CS Lewis' vision of the Way across space and time --

Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.
But his delight is in the Way of the LORD,
and on his Way he meditates day and night.
He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.
Posted By: job Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/31/22 06:13 PM
Gerda,

Finally! You have found a lawyer that you like and is sticking to the facts. It has taken you a long time to find just the right lawyer who will fight for you and your children. I hope he can help you see the light at the end of the tunnel and have this divorce/settlement business settled very soon.

Gerda, you are a fighter and at the end of the day, you will walk away and hopefully your h will be in your rearview mirror for good. As for your children, I think your son has him figured out already, but your daughter will need time to see the light.

Hang in there! Sending positive thoughts your way.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 05/31/22 07:54 PM
Hello Gerda

What a wonderful verse. Thank you dear friend.

I think I might carve that in to wood, stain it, frame it, and place it upon the wall.


I am very happy you have found a good lawyer. He sounds great. I really appreciate laser focused and results oriented; of course, I’m a bit bias towards that. smile

And how you found him is quite the story indeed. Oh my, so glad you had to search the address of the other L. Scumbag Lawyers. Lol. Fate was smiling upon you that day.


Take care Gerda. Stand tall, and walk in the light.

D
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/02/22 03:05 AM
Hello Gerda. I may not have commented much, but I have been following your thread. I am happy you found a lawyer and I hope that he helps. You have gone through so much. You deserve some good to come out of all your hard work. Thank you for sharing your story. I will miss seeing you out here. I know you will walk the light and get through it. I’m here cheering you on!

Xo.
El
Posted By: Gerda Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/02/22 05:26 PM
sjohn -- did it!

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Hello Gerda. I may not have commented much, but I have been following your thread. I am happy you found a lawyer and I hope that he helps. You have gone through so much. You deserve some good to come out of all your hard work. Thank you for sharing your story. I will miss seeing you out here. I know you will walk the light and get through it. I’m here cheering you on!

Xo.
El

Thank you, Elbereth! That means a lot, thank you for following my story and I hope that all goes very well for you, and I'm sorry I have not been posting on your thread or keeping up. I hope you are doing okay.

Job, thank you so much for stopping by and for the three cheers! You are my MLC auntie/mom/guru, so it is always wonderful to hear from you, and even better when you see something in a positive light, since you've seen it all. I send you lots of love and if I am ever going to be near you in MD I will holler.

DnJ, just as you always say, the MLCer will do the work for us, we need not worry. D13 is already starting to limit or cancel visits, she is getting her strength back. She is really really mean to me, and I know what you are saying about that but you have also 2x4'd me on letting them be mean to me, so you understand it's always a balancing act. Overall though I count myself lucky to get to see them everyday, to be the one who is there for them and supports them mentally, financially, spiritually, academically, legally, etc., even if they don't understand or appreciate it (yet)! Far worse would be to be the one who hurt them and who ended up missing everything, I get to see it all, even though some of it is not very nice. About the plaque -- yes, carved and stained and hung on the wall. A reminder of all you are and all you radiate and hopefully also a reminder of one brave little Gerda who stood witness!
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/02/22 06:54 PM
Gerda, I know how you feel about the kid situation. It is hard having them go to the ex and spend time when you do all the parenting stuff. And then to have them misbehave when with you...its a lot. You are doing the work though. You are putting in the effort that will pay off in the long run, its just a beat down right now. Those kids will grow up to know and recognize the situation for what it is and will have a new found appreciation and respect for you! My father is not my biological father, but the one I grew up with none the less. I have always known he wasn't my father. I never felt like he treated me different, but as a child I could not help thinking about that other aspect of my life that I knew nothing about. But, now as an adult, I realize just how amazing what he did for me was. I do not always agree with him politically or religiously, but I would die for that man. I say that to explain that your kids (although getting older) still think like kids. They will come around and I have no doubt about that.

So...you did? Awesome! But I didn't get anything. was is sjohns63@msn.com? My plan was if I got something from you I'd give you the email I actually use, just didn't want to post that one in public.

I know the times can be troubling, but I hope TODAY is amazing for you!

Sam
Posted By: job Re: Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now - 06/02/22 08:05 PM
New Thread:

Brave Little Gerda Passes Through the Door
© DivorceBusting.com