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Scout's QLC Journey #5Last post on last thread:
Love the conflicting viewpoints here...
unchien: "Don't do anything to stir the pot"
kml: "Let's antagonise him with balloon signs!"
It seems he'll be antagonised by anything I do, so balloon signs are not necessary. There was a small dispute over the return/non-return of S2's belongings at dropoff yesterday. I made what I thought was a reasonable request. He sneered and got all dark eyed and called me petty. I said "I'm sorry you feel that way" and he gave a big, loud, fake, sarcastic, nasty laugh as he walked away. I felt very hopeless and hollow inside.
S2 seems to have had a good time with his dad for father's day for which I am glad. He has still been crying and unsettled and refusing to go bed since the unoffical sleepover last weekend, though. I'm hoping X will agree to the increased overnight time I have offered to commence immediately. One day, this will all be a bad memory instead of current pain. I'm realising that nothing goes by faster than your kid's childhood.
I’m sorry but I feel very strongly about this. This is all about your S2. Does it benefit S2 if you intentionally antagonize your X? What is the benefit?
Secondarily you are trying to nail down a parenting agreement. I don’t think antagonizing the person you are negotiating with is going to help save you time, money, and emotional energy in a legal battle.
I totally get that sometimes X may react and feel antagonized and that is his problem. I don’t think you have been intentionally needling him. People who get sucked into that vortex end up sending their lawyers’ kids to great universities.
Of course if he gets upset about something (Like the balloons) that you can’t control it’s his problem. I think you handled the last interaction great. At best from what I’ve heard in these high conflict D’s it takes at least a year if not more for the conflict to die down.
I hope you get to an agreement on parenting time soon. Hopefully that can lessen the conflict.
You're totally right. I think kml's comment was a joke and my reply wasn't serious either. Sorry if that didn't come across in the post. I've got no interest in antagonising X for fear for my safety, let alone jeopardising the agreement I'm seeking.
It has been, I think, 15 months since X left. As time goes on, he seems to be getting angrier. The more I tuck myself away and live my solitary life, the more aggravated he seems to act. This latest round of spew started after I served him with the divorce papers. My psychologist said it's because a) consequences are settling in, b) he's lost control of the situation, and c) his new life isn't as great as he thought.
Despite allowing X to continue taking S2 for visits, I am deeply concerned about his potential to use S2 to get to me. Maybe I've watched too many Dateline episodes, I don't know. But X has an inter-generational anger problem, he's got his family in his ear about his rights being taken away, he's dealing with the consequences and shame of his actions... Desperate people do desperate things.
I am hopeful to settle the parenting agreement without lawyers. As far as I know, X doesn't even have one. It's very unlikely this case will ever see the inside of a court room. If it did, the judge would take one look at my email offering immediate increased time, say "take the offer, fool", and throw us out. I'm in the driver's seat when it comes to negotiations. And unfortunately that makes me vulnerable to attack.
It's a risky time and I have to be smart.
Lol I was definitely kidding a about the balloon signs.
I said "I'm sorry you feel that way" and he gave a big, loud, fake, sarcastic, nasty laugh as he walked away. I felt very hopeless and hollow inside.
HE is the one who is hollow inside - don’t let him project that onto you. You did a good job with the “I’m sorry you feel that way” comment, less good with letting him get you on the clothing return stuff. Anything he sees bothers you, he will use to needle you. Your ex should have his own clothes for S2. Send S2 for overnight with just the clothes he’s wearing, let ex supply pj’s and next day clothes. Get duplicates of beloved blankies ror stuffed animals if you can. Just minimize anything that gives him a foothold on you. Be the smooth grey rock that he can’t get a grip on.
Grey rock method... exactly
If you ever needed confirmation that none of this has anything to do with you...
One of the things X said at BD was that I never allowed him to have a dog. It was his lifelong dream to have a dog. I was the dog dream killer. He was so dog-deprived that he couldn't stand it anymore. "Do you know how many times I nearly brought a dog home without telling you?" he cried.
"You wanted cats so we got cats," he said. I absolutely cringe to think back to a weak moment where I offered to get rid of our cats so he could get his precious dog and maybe consider sticking around. "No, those are your cats," he said. We raised those two cats from rescue kittens and they were attached to him, so that was cold.
For the record, my objections to the dog: he wanted a husky and we live in the tropics; he worked irregular shifts at his retail job which would make doggy care difficult; we had two cats that a husky would certainly hunt and kill; we had lived in places that were unsuitable for a large dog; finally, we had a new baby and were struggling with that.
So imagine my surprise when S2 came home with the news this week that Dad and OW have a brand new... CAT!
Bahahaha. It is just too much!! I do wonder what goes on in those dinky little brains where this all obviously makes sense.
xx M
Scout, my H hasn't brought this up yet, but I can almost guarantee it's on his list of things that are my fault--we have cats that we raised from kittens instead of a dog. I was hoping getting a dog would be just one of the reasons he'd move out, but no such luck so far. I hope OW will "let" your H have a dog at some point! Ha.
lmao. maybe he is setting it up so he can blame OW for the same thing in the future.
I'm always amazed by the energy the WAS can spend spinning and reshaping their narrative so they don't have to face responsibility.
If you asked him, he would have some sort of bizarre explanation why the cat thing all makes sense.
Ego protection is a powerful force.
He probably didn't really want a Husky in the first place - or not after you explained the practical obstacles - but kept at it just to needle you.
It's been a week since I emailed X offering to start the increased time schedule immediately. He replied to say he hoped to have a response by the end of last week. Crickets so far... I'm a bit on edge waiting for a response so hopefully by posting about it here, the universe will deliver.
S2 has been really difficult. It could just be toddler problems, but it coincides with the weekend X took him away. I can't get him to stay in bed. Normally we do our bedtime routine and he'll pop out of his room once or twice with a big cheeky grin before talking himself to sleep. Now it's taking over two hours of screaming and crying, clinging and following me around, wanting me to lie with him until he falls asleep, waking up in the middle of the night and coming into my bed. He has always been an excellent sleeper as I made sure to instill good sleep habits when he was an infant. It's been hard for me, I'm really tired, but I've relaxed my firm boundaries a little since he seems to be struggling and needs comfort.
He's talking about conceptual things like family, love, home etc and obviously processing a LOT:
"I feel angry at dad"
"I really don't want to go to dad's house"
"I'm scared that dad's taking me away"
"It's just dad and OW and S2 at dad's house, not mama"
"Dad doesn't give me kisses and cuddles"
I've just listened and empathised and tried not to influence his feelings in any way other than to reassure him.
"Do you love me at home?" Yes, I do.
"Do you love me at daycare?" Yes, I do.
"Do you love me at dad's house?" Yes, I do.
"Do you love me when I'm asleep?" Yes, I do. I love you even when you can't see me.
That last one sparked so many questions that I had to shut it down altogether. Funny kid.
It's like parenting a teenager in some ways.
"Stop talking!"
"Leave me alone please!"
"I want to be by myself"
"I'm sad and angry and grumpy"
When asked what he needs... "Nothing!"
"Don't give me too many kisses!"
"I don't love you... (waits for reaction)... I DO love you!" (giggles)
Regardless of the reason for the upset, I feel like he's pushing and testing to make sure that I'm still here, still consistent, still loving etc. Which of course I am and always will be. It's hard, though, to feel like I'm sharing my son with someone who is actively unparenting him. I have never been against X having S2 overnight (once age-appropriate) despite my misgivings about his parenting. I just wanted it to be respectful of S2's needs in order to prevent this exact situation from happening. And I know in the long run it'll be fine and S2 will be fine. The last two weeks have just been hard for us both.
Imagine what he was like at your ex’s. Probably drove ex crazy talking about mommy. I’m betting that’s why ex hasn’t responded to your offer of increased time. Once the thrill of upsetting you is gone, he’s stuck taking care of a two year old!
Are you keeping a record of all these things? Have your pages and pages of this stuff for the custody hearing. This sounds devastating, whether he is two or not. He is telling you something very important with all these things, he is really openly revealing his heart and what is happening at H's house. I know what everyone else here is saying but I don't agree. I think you should record everything everyday as a visitation record, including all that you do that H doesn't help with, and all these reactions of S2. If you can settle the D quickly with full custody, do that and then get into family court and get more boundaries in place with the help of an advocate. He is two now. That is easy in a way, no matter how hard and awful it is. As he gets older, the expression of that trauma comes in ways that are dangerous (self harm, drug use, shoplifting, etc, as happened with my S). I'm not trying to scare you. Just stay clear headed and record everything in a journal.
Scout, what are your misgivings about his parenting? Some of the things you've shared about how your XH treated you were really really horrible to read. I'm remembering one about a wedding.
I agree with kml that likely S2 was super annoying and asking for mommy the whole time... and does your X have the emotional capacity to swallow that and be a dad? Or will he take out the feelings of rejection and frustration on his kid, because he can?
All those questions S2 asked you... can you imagine what your XH's response would be to them? I'm thinking I'd be very surprised if they were like yours. And {b]I'm[/b] still traumatized thinking about him in the car on the way home listening to you and X fight on the phone over his sort-of kidnapping. The statement about being scared his dad is going to take him away worries me.
I agree with Gerda. keep really good records of all of this. Share it with your IC and see if she/he thinks some therapy might be a good idea for S2. it doesn't hurt anything or mean anything to keep records, but could be important in the future-- not just for custody, but in supporting S2 through this as well.
I'm still betting that once you've offered ex more time with S2, ex will start coming up with excuses not to take it. Drop the rope in the game of tug of war and he falls over.
Ugh, I am really sick with a sinus infection thanks to S2 coughing directly into my face over the weekend. I’m on antibiotics, nasal spray, and hay fever medicine. My skull hurts.
X did end up responding after I posted the other day. He said he “wasn’t opposed to the principles” behind the new parenting plan but felt it was “restrictive” and “missed many aspects”.
He wants to go from zero overnights to six per month including consecutive nights during the week. Funnily enough, he doesn’t want the every other weekend time I offered. Obviously wants to keep his weekends free.
I offered two per month increasing to four when S2 turns three in February and six when he turns five. A mix of weeknights and weekends and shared holidays. It’s child-focused and endorsed by family law.
So now my task is to try and explain why S2 would benefit from a gradual transition to increased time. Fortunately I have a lot of evidence with his behaviour since the impromptu sleepover to support this.
I also need to point out that this transition could have occurred over the last six months but X declined to take the increased time when offered, so the process has to start here and now.
Keeping this out of court is my goal but I’m also not going to compromise S2’s emotional wellbeing. This is classic X - shifting the goalposts, unwilling to compromise, entitled and selfish.
I never pry into X’s parenting time. Maybe I should, I dunno. I know that accidents happen, but S2 has been returned with scratches from a pit bull, busted lip from a jetski, cuts from falling on rocks.
Then there’s more important concerns about X’s ability to nurture S2. I remember talking to X-MIL and even she admitted that X had no empathy. I do worry about that affecting S2.
I’ve honestly never met a person with less emotional intelligence than X. So yes, I do feel it’s my duty to offset that with my own empathy and teach S2 to be considerate of others, and yes, sadly, limit his dad’s influence.
Of course I do want S2 to feel safe and comfortable when he’s at his dad’s house. But his home is with me. I’m happy to work towards a 70/30 arrangement by the time S2 starts school. That’s more than I ever thought I’d agree to.
I know there are bitter ex-wives out there who use the children to get back at their ex-husbands. That isn’t me and it’s not who I am. My only concern is making sure S2 has the best opportunity in life in every way.
Scout, I have a bad feeling about this. I know what others here have said about dropping rope, etc. I think you should always drop the rope with everything about your M, the OW, everything else. But not the kids. I never ever could have imagined my H was capable of the things he has done the past seven years. What you knew of him is not him anymore. I think you should push very hard for a financial settlement, as quickly as you can. Don't make a custody arrangement yet. Get the financial stuff done and signed. Leave the custody as the last thing you have to do to divorce, and then have your many pages of records ready and have a lawyer who is an expert on childrens needs. That's the only thing that really matters, the financial stuff is important but really I am sure the only thing you really care about is your child. I personally would not want my kid on an overnight with that man until there had been supervised visits to start. From what you have listed, you definitely have grounds for concern and a court would see that. I remember all the things I brushed aside or didn't take seriously and looking back, how crazy those things sound now. Your list sounds pretty crazy to me from the outside.
But I think you do want to do the biz side without a lawyer if you can. So I would tell him that you understand his concerns about the visitation and that you understand his need for time to consider it, so you want to settle the financial stuff that you agree on now, and you can do the visitation last after he's had a chance to think it through. In the meantime, keep collecting that record and interview advocates for the children -- try to get someone as your lawyer who normally represents kids in a divorce so that s/he is a total expert on that.
Why would she ever want to do the financial stuff without a lawyer? Plus, I think that's already been settled, hasn't it? Or almost?
Look - dropping the rope is NOT about not being vigilant about your child. But it's about foiling his desire to use the child custody as a way to get AT you. Document everything (but I don't think any of the physical things that have happened so far would qualify in a judge's eyes as negligence - to be fair, stuff does just happen to kids and even good fathers do not watch them like hawks the way that most moms do. Men are risk takers - and that's good, kids need to learn to take some risks too). Still, if the pattern continues, you may end up with enough evidence. Hopefully OW will stick around to be a moderating influence.
The desired outcome is for him to stop fighting you for custody - which I think is more likely to happen if he has a taste of it and decides it's too much work for him. (Sounds like he's already decided it would interfere with his weekends, huh?). That's not going to look too good to a judge if he's been given a reasonable amount of custody time and he isn't taking it. These pages are littered with men who fought for custody time and then stopped taking it once they got it. For your ex it's just a way to push your buttons - so don't let him see they're pushed.
Finances are completely settled. That is a separate proceeding that can occur prior to the legal divorce.
I’m not obligated to consider any changes to the current custody arrangement. I could just sit back and wait for him to force a change. However, it’s a good look for me to proactively facilitate the father-son relationship by offering increased time. Of course if I felt S2 was truly in danger, I would shut down all visitation and apply for sole custody. It’s extremely difficult to get sole custody here without evidence of physical abuse.
Unfortunately it is a bit of a game. If S2 was a couple of years older, I’d just call X’s bluff and agree to the time he wants immediately. His request is not unreasonable for a five year old. There are many factors making it unsuitable at this point in time - S2’s age, his ability to cope with transitions, his attachment to primary caregiver, the lack of overnight care to date, the level of conflict between parents, and the behavioural changes since the ‘kidnapping’ proving the need for a gradual transition.
Of course it should always be about what is best for the child. I didn’t choose to be a part time parent as X did, yet I’ve never put my own needs and wants before S2’s right to a relationship with his father. I’m confident in what I’m proposing and my ability to negotiate. I’ve worked hard to provide security and stability for S2, often at the expense of my own wellbeing, and I’m confident that I can continue doing that despite what happens when he’s with X.
I’m dealing with a man who told me his needs were more important than those of his infant son. Does a man like that deserve to be called a father and enjoy the fruits of my labour as a mother? I certainly have my opinion, but it’s not relevant to a court unless there is a supporting case with evidence. The best way to build that case is to give him the rope required to hang himself while exercising caution for S2’s sake.
Do you know how many times X has called, emailed, or messaged me to talk about S2 since he left? Zero. He has never asked to call or video chat with him. Never enquired how he is going with toilet training or whether he still takes a nap during the day or if he is still attending the extracurricular activities we did when we were together. Never followed up on information I provide about his health or any illness. Never once asked me for any information that could support S2 when he has him. Never asked about a care plan when daycare and work and everything shut down due to Covid. Nothing. Never. He does not care. When I offered information and attempted to coparent and collaborate on S2’s care, I was accused of being controlling and manipulative and keeping tabs on him. Yet now he is angry that I don’t talk to him about S2? I refuse to do the job of a wife when he fired me from that role. I share the information I am legally required to provide about S2’s health and well-being and that is all. I’m not sure where this rant is coming from but here it is.
It's just further proof that his real interest is not in having S2 for more time, but in pushing your buttons by using it as something to fight over.
The good news is, he will probably fade away into an occasional Disney dad, and although normally that would be sad for your son, in this case it is likely for the best.
My sister's husband left her for an affair partner when their daughter was 2 (this affair started while my sister was away with her 2 year old caring for his dying mother - a woman who had always been AWFUL to my sister but my sister is a saint and there was no one else to do it). He's really an actual sociopath and was a terrible father to my niece - didn't attend her basketball games or band performances, spent little actual time interacting with her on sparse his visitation etc.
However - my sister remarried to a guy who was a GREAT stepfather to my niece. He went to all her games, totally supported her in her endeavors etc.
Now my niece is 30, an ICU nurse. She refers to her biological father as "the sperm donor" and has little to do with him. Her stepdad died unexpectedly a year ago this week and her posts about him are very moving. She had a real dad, he just wasn't her biological one. And she's been better off that her bio dad was a sparse presence in her life since he really is pathological.
Scout, sorry I was not following the details of your sitch. I thought you were trying to avoid or couldn't afford lawyers and court and didn't know you had finances done. That is awesome! So amazing!
In that case I don't know why you are trying to push anything forward. If he is asking for very little access, I would not push it at all! The status quo will probably prevail in that case.
I used to try to ensure my kids had their dad in their lives. Now I see it differently. My son was suicidal, shoplifting, school refuser til I finally paid his dad to move out. Slowly but surely, he got better and better. He hasn't seen his dad in over a year and is really growing into adulthood, taking school more seriously, earning his own money, has happiness and hope, no more depression, much less rage, helping me more, etc. Meanwhile, his sister sees her dad (whenever he is not moving from state to state) and talks to him a lot, a lot of middleschoolesque texting all day, a lot of him criticizing me and vaping and drinking in front of her, other woman talk or present, etc., and my daughter is a MESS. She used to be my easy child, a little angel. Now she is always confused and anxious and lashing out and unfocused with school, fighting me to wear sexy clothes at age 10/11 and has even been cursing, hitting her brother, etc. I think she is depressed and she is definitely self medicating with food. Some of that is tween stuff I know, but the degree is very intense and a huge change for her that coincided with H suddenly taking an interest in her last year.
You don't want to be seen as standing in the way of H seeing S, I agree, but I don't think you need to push it either.
I feel like I had an epiphany this week. It had to happen authentically and I couldn’t have reached this point any sooner. It’s weird but I just... suddenly stopped caring about how we got here. The affair, the lies, the abandonment, none of that matters. There are consequences for the way it happened, but I can’t let it can’t affect the way I shape my life or S2’s life.
Writing up this response about the custody arrangement has made me realise that parallel parenting is unsustainable long term. It was necessary for a while to protect myself from the emotional abuse. But if S2 is going to have peace and security in his life, I need to work towards some level of coparenting— with some ROCK SOLID boundaries in place.
X wrote things into the agreement that concerned me. Things that would be divisive and cultivate secrecy and discourage communication, not just between me and X but between S2 and his parents. I don’t agree with them and don’t want them enshrined in a legal document. I can’t control what he does but I can grease the wheels.
I want S2 to feel comfortable sharing his experiences with both of us. I want us both to have the option of attending his extracurricular and social activities. I want to ensure S2 feels safe and comfortable around his stepparents. I want to make provisions for switching days and times for special occasions. So I’ve adjusted the agreement to reflect this.
Doesn’t mean I want to be friends or even friendly with X. I’m half expecting his response to be more anger and spew that I’m trying to ingratiate myself into his life. To someone like X, collaboration and consideration feels like control. That’s never going to change. Thankfully, his opinion of me doesn’t matter in the slightest.
Just a side note: another BD memory that came up. X said that he had always been bothered by something I said throughout the years: that I never felt like I was good enough for him. I did say that sometimes because that’s how he made me feel. He brought it up one last time and asked me “why didn’t you ever try harder to be good enough?”
I was speechless at that.
Wow. He gaslights you’re into thinking you’re not good enough, then asks you why you didn’t try harder to be good enough? That says it all right there. He’s definitely got some dark triad stuff going on. And you still had some damage from that abusive coach.
I hope you realize now that you’re plenty good enough for anybody. And be extra careful to avoid repeating that dynamic in your dating life.
scout ~ I can't believe he said that! kml has it right on with the gaslighting.
There are a few moments in my sitch in the past year that floor me in the same way. I am grateful that they happen because they are touchstones to remind me why things have to be the way they are.
I also worry a lot about parallel parenting vs. co-parenting and the impact to my kids. I am on almost exactly the same timeline as you, with a similar amount of discord (but not the same details). I badly wish we could co-parent, but it's going to take time. Just a month ago, my X was making outrageous allegations in an attempt to withhold our children from me. So it's going to take some time. I'll never forgive her, but I'm not going to entrench myself with resentment for the rest of my life at the expense of my kids' emotional and mental well-being. It sounds like you are in a similar place.
Sometimes I wonder if my desire to co-parent is just as hopeless as my previous hope to R. Wishful thinking.
But... I will leave the door open. Multiple experts have told me it will likely take a minimum of 12-18 months for some of the discord to subside before we can really start working together. I would be surprised, the way my X behaves, if it will be that soon. I'm open-minded, but I think it's unlikely that we can co-parent effectively in the very short term. I'm guessing it will take you two some time as well.
As part of our parenting agreement, we are supposed to go to co-parenting counseling soon. I'm skeptical that we will make progress given her current mindset (she made absolutely false claims in our last court session, which the experts saw through). I suspect she will try to convince the counselor of her narrative. We also tried co-parenting last year for months, where she blamed every challenge our kids faced on me (rather than the effect of the S, or just normal development). Just throwing out that you might want to consider adding a stipulation in your parenting agreement that you will attend co-parenting counseling together -- I just don't know what timeline.
Anyways, my approach is to have an open mind and open heart. If she comes around and starts taking steps to work together, I am willing, for the sake of my kids. They deserve to have 2 parents working together, and I will own my responsibility to work towards that. It sounds like you have the same mindset.
One thing I did last year that was really fantastic was to take a co-parenting class (by myself, which is how people usually do it). So many of the ideas meshed with DB principles. And the class discussions from real people going through the same process were really enlightening.
Argghhhhh. This man will argue against himself if it means he wins against me. For example, he wanted dinner once a week with S2. I agreed and offered extended time to allow for dinner, bathtime and travel home. He wrote back saying no, it's too late for a toddler to be out at night. At 7:30pm. S2's bedtime is 8pm, but okay.
He also said that S2 has 'increasingly shown signs of helicopter parenting over the last twelve months'. Twelve months ago he was still a baby-- is he suggesting I should have been less attentive to his needs? I went straight to the daycare for evidence and they said S2 is one of the most independent, well-adjusted and well-behaved kids in their care.
I look at S2 in comparison to the children of my friends and he is advanced in nearly every aspect, but his social skills are particularly impressive. He is incredibly verbal for his age, his grasp of manners and etiquette is amazing (because I enforce it), he addresses his peers and adults confidently and clearly, he is able to articulate his feelings and needs.
In the same paragraph as that helicopter parenting accusation, he denied the behavioural changes I raised, saying that S2 shows a preference for Dad (not that I've seen, but okay). So if S2 is that comfortable in his care, how is my parenting having a negative effect? Surely S2 would be anxious about leaving my presence if it were true?
It's too easy to poke holes in his arguments. For the record, I always encourage S2 to spend time and have fun with dad, to listen and obey his rules, to share his thoughts and feelings, and to remember he is safe. Anything less would sow seeds of insecurity and instability in S2's mind, and why the heck would I want to do that?
On the plus side, we have agreement on all but two of the articles in the parenting plan. We've agreed on communication, holiday time, extracurriculars, medical, schooling. Just the weekly schedule and Christmas to go. I'm firm on the core arrangement for both, but flexible on the particulars. Will continue negotiating pleasantly on my part.
Scout, you are doing great.
Can I share a gentle 2x4? You are so incredibly good at not taking any of STBX's bait in all departments, except where it comes to S2. He has lost ALL power over you in every other department. Don't ruminate for a minute about your excellent parenting just because STBX provokes. It's the last marionette-line he has on you. Snip it, girl.
Everything you have written about your parenting style, your approach to challenging situations and the way you communicate with S tells me you are a stellar mama. Backed up by your daycare. Your S's manners, advance verbal capacity and emotional intelligence is because of YOU.
You have 16 years of co-parenting ahead of you. Don't train STBX that you will take any of his shite when it comes to his interpretation of your excellent parenting. A simple 'thank you, I will keep an eye out for that' should suffice in 99% of your interactions with STBX.
Also, I question STBX's comment about the helicopter parenting. That observation seems highly articulate for a parent whom you could still count time spent with S in hours over the past 12 months. You have to be a very invested parent (reading articles and books, understanding deep parenting issues) to be able to throw that accusation. It sounds like a seed someone else would plant in his head (MIL comes to mind). Ignore it and move on.
Keep it coming, Sage! S2 really is my final trigger. You just convinced me to delete 1/2 my email responding to those claims. As logical and reasoned as my response was, it is not necessary to validate foolishness. Thanks
I was going to write the same thing as Sage did. I have literal mountains of e-mails from my H criticizing my homemaking, parenting, cooking, etc. He even told the judge it was my fault that our place appraised lower than he thought because I didn't clean well. My son hasn't spoken to him in over a year, and he still doesn't think there is anything wrong with his parenting or approach to divorce. I was wondering why it was that you saw through the lies with everything else and not with this. In fact, I would push a little farther than Sage, because I am like you, my children are all to me, so I am self conscious about my parenting, esp since I definitely am not perfect! (Just wait til S2 is a teen!) But because of that I take it too personally before I get my head screwed back on. So I just want to push you to be strong and tough so that you also don't get confused when he is a bad parent. What you described about S2 from the last visit is extremely alarming, as is the "kidnapping." If anything worse happened, those things would be evidence, not something to shrug off. So I think you have to be razor sharp and crystal clear about your parenting so that you don't lose any confidence to protect S2 from his.
Here's a good metaphor to keep in your brain -- my H has literally done no parenting or providing in many years. He didn't even know where our kids were going to school, has no idea about who their doctor is, doesn't see or speak to my son (son refuses) and has moved four times to different states since Covid started, not seeing our D for months at a time. He thinks I am making up their disabilities, though my D has extremely obvious learning issues and the DoE in my city pays for a private school for my son because of his emotional troubles being so severe. H does not give me child support and is taking advantage of a court order delay to keep not paying it. He not only doesn't cover their housing costs but is trying to sell our house while we live in it, though I use the rentals below to pay the mortgage and will have to move out of the city if I have to sell. He is to my mind abusive to my daughter, commenting constantly on her appearance and her weight when he does see her and tying her in knots by criticizing me, etc. But when I filed my taxes recently, married filing singly because he was so furious that I filed jointly last year, i got a message from the IRS that I couldn't claim my children as dependents because someone else already did.
I had a court conference that week but I decided to stay silent, focus on my goal of settling the property and write to the IRS with all the proof needed to restore my deduction and take his away. I am going to let the IRS handle it, and boy oh boy will that be an ugly penalty for him.
So try to do that same thing with these accusations. You are a way better parent than I am, based on what you have said. Know your rights and obligations, document everything, and don't engage an irrational man who wants to destroy a good woman to assuage his own guilt.
And remember, I say that as a woman who does not regret standing for seven years. I believe in restoration. But until MLC ends, you have to be a she-wolf for your kids.
Argghhhhh. This man will argue against himself if it means he wins against me.
Exactly. It supports his narrative. Don't take the bait.
He also said that S2 has 'increasingly shown signs of helicopter parenting over the last twelve months'. Twelve months ago he was still a baby-- is he suggesting I should have been less attentive to his needs? I went straight to the daycare for evidence and they said S2 is one of the most independent, well-adjusted and well-behaved kids in their care.
It sounds to me like your H has a L in his ear.
In the same paragraph as that helicopter parenting accusation, he denied the behavioural changes I raised, saying that S2 shows a preference for Dad (not that I've seen, but okay). So if S2 is that comfortable in his care, how is my parenting having a negative effect? Surely S2 would be anxious about leaving my presence if it were true?
See above.
The signs are there that your H is preparing legal groundwork in case you can't come to an agreement beforehand. Every man in his position will have the same advice of what to look for to support their argument.
It's too easy to poke holes in his arguments.
You are assuming you are engaging with somebody using logic and reason. He is using emotional reasoning. No point engaging.
For the record, I always encourage S2 to spend time and have fun with dad, to listen and obey his rules, to share his thoughts and feelings, and to remember he is safe. Anything less would sow seeds of insecurity and instability in S2's mind, and why the heck would I want to do that?
Not only is this important, I encourage you to document and journal that you do this (just facts). It will counter any legal argument he could potential make that you are not supporting his relationship with S2.
On the plus side, we have agreement on all but two of the articles in the parenting plan. We've agreed on communication, holiday time, extracurriculars, medical, schooling. Just the weekly schedule and Christmas to go. I'm firm on the core arrangement for both, but flexible on the particulars. Will continue negotiating pleasantly on my part.
This is encouraging. Hopefully all the discord is saber-rattling on his part and you two can come to some sort of arrangement on the weekly schedule. That is the toughest one to close.
Your maturity all through this process is going to pay off for you and S2 in the long run.
Hi Scout,
Just reinforcing the message from the others above, in terms of not taking his bait. I also, though, agree with Gerda and Unchien that this whole path of what is happening is not something to take lightly, both from a legal and a safety perspective.
Your H has shown zero ability or interest in being a parent all along. Some of the others here whose exes are being a-holes in the custody process (like Unchien's) at the very least has years under her belt of demonstrating how much she loves her kids. Maybe I'm being unkind or just not remembering, but I'm having a difficult time recalling a time reading about your ex being a good dad, really wanting to be a dad, loving your S unconditionally, having any inclination to subsume his own desires or priorities in the best interests of your S.
I absolutely agree that not engaging and arguing is important, but stating clearly your stance and documenting his injuries, skipped visits, etc is also important-- hopefully, possibly, it isn't needed. But just in case. I had a situation many years ago with a colleague who was a truly awful person (drank on the job, etc) and was sued at work by another colleague. Turned out she had kept very detailed (and completely false) journals but since no-one else had written down the dates/times of incidents, she basically got the case dismissed. I have always, always kept detailed memos on personnel issues following that situation. You've always been so good in underscoring that D is not a team sport, that it is the untangling of a business partnership. This is just the hardest part.
Finally, not to mindread, but the "helicopter parent" comment might also just be a reflection of his own insecurities given the injuries S2 sustained while with him-- I could imagine your ex feeling defensive about that and "helicopter parenting" is a reflexive pushback on that.
I am constantly amazed on how you're able to rise above, over and over.
I think the fact that you agreed to him taking S2 for weeknight dinners and he came back with an excuse why he couldn't says it all. Probably dawned on him that if he took S2 you could go out on a dinner date! Just keep giving him little bits of rope and let him hang himself. And keep all the correspondence. The more things he turns down, the weaker his case for custody.
Thanks everyone, your posts have been really encouraging.
Gerda - I've read through most of your old threads. There's a noticeable strength and, more importantly, humour in your current posts. You've really come back to life despite still being in the middle of a horrible situation. You should be proud of how far you've come.
Unchien - I am actually not certain that X has a lawyer. He didn't have one for the property settlement. When my L asked for his L's details, he refused to provide anything. His last response came back within two hours so I doubt it's being run through a lawyer. Doesn't mean he hasn't had legal advice, but I'm more thinking these statements are being fed by his family.
May - you're right about X never showing interest in being a parent. I posted before about a rare time when I went out for the night and came home to a sick infant screaming in his cot while X lay in bed with a pillow over his head to block the noise. So I'm not taking S2's safety and wellbeing lightly. If that gets me the label of helicopter parent, so be it.
kml - I've stopped dating for now. Not because I'm not ready, but I'd rather devote that time to myself. Being single is actually so wonderful. The thought of living with a man ever again is... not appealing! I'm getting a lot of tips from Female Dating Strategy about living my best life despite the moratorium on dating right now.
Soooo I've sent off a response to X just now. My palms are a bit sweaty imagining the kind of response I'll get in return. But I shall persevere and deal with it when it comes.
Sage's wording ended up being really helpful. I just said "Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for any signs of helicopter parenting." Then went into the negotiations.
Is a journal or calendar sufficient for documentation? What about Divorce Busting threads? LOL.
scout ~
I kept a journal with simple facts. Nothing too burdensome. Maybe 3-4 sentences per day, no feelings, just facts. I saved all texts and emails. And in my journal I bolded dates when particularly important things happened.
In your case, I would especially note the times you offer time with S2 that he turns down. Or examples of poor care (especially safety concerns).
Hopefully you never need it.
Thanks for the tips, U. X hasn't replied yet and it's been a week-- posting about it worked last time, so let's see if he responds today after I post this.
X just picked up S2 in his track car. His hobby for the past ten years has been drifting, a sport where you slide a powerful, low, loud car around a race track and burn up your tyres in the process. Fun, but very expensive. I've seen cars blow up before. I'm shocked he managed to fit a car seat into the car-- it's not exactly built for comfort. Again, not exactly a dangerous or neglectful parenting choice, just something I'd consider inappropriate for a two-year old.
Last night I had a terrifying dream. I was staying over at X-ILs' house in a dark room. FIL was shouting, ranting, screaming in another room. He then went completely silent. I heard footsteps and my door was opened. Silence again until I felt my bedsheets being lifted and a large male presence sliding in beside me. Panicked, I tried to slip out of bed and run away. Then I woke up.
Two stories for context:
1) When I was 16, I moved out of home and billeted with a family in a major city so I could train for swimming. The parents were nice people who got blackout drunk every night. One night, they were drinking with a male friend who had come for dinner. I went to bed and woke up to loud voices right outside my bedroom door. The wife was arguing with the man. Both were drunk but the man extremely so. I can't remember what was said, but I stood with my hand on the doorknob holding the door shut for what felt like hours. Completely petrified. Then suddenly I heard a fist connecting with flesh. The wife started wailing for her husband. She opened my door and told me to run. I went to her daughter's room at the other end of the house and we huddled in bed together. I didn't sleep again that night and didn't make it to training the next morning at 5am. I was punished by the coach for not making it. The wife apologised to me the next day. She had a puffy black eye. I'm still not sure exactly what happened but I can make a guess that she caught him attempting to enter my room.
2) At Christmas one year, X and I travelled to his sister's place for lunch. We arrived to find his mother preparing a roast lamb in the kitchen and weeping. She told us flatly that FIL had 'one of his blowups' and walked out the door yelling that he wasn't coming back. I was shocked but X and his sister seemed nonchalant. It was a tense atmosphere with MIL on edge. About an hour later, FIL walked back in the door. Smiling, beaming, joking and jolly as if nothing had happened. There was no explanation and it was never even acknowledged. Everyone brushed it under the rug. MIL put on a brave face and went back to catering to FIL's every need and demand. It was bizarre to me but even more bizarre that it seemed normal to them.
Just wanted to journal a bit this morning. It's not really material to my situation other than to remind me how lucky I am to have escaped such a dysfunctional family and that I can break the cycle of abuse for my son.
S2 is finally back to falling asleep without me having to sit in the room. What a relief. Bedtime for the last six weeks has been stressful and upsetting for both of us. He seems to have processed the 'kidnapping' (for lack of a better word) and has been happy to spend time with his dad during his regular daytime visits. So no lasting damage, I hope.
In some ways it's good that X has strung out the new custody agreement as it's given S2 a chance to settle. He still hasn't responded to my last email of almost two weeks ago. It's frustrating-- I've made it explicit that the increased time can start immediately while we work out future adjustments in the background. But still nothing.
I think he refuses to take the time offered so that he can simultaneously play the victim and dodge the parenting work required. Win-win for him, in his mind, but the only person losing is himself. He has now missed 32 potential weekly dinners and 8 potential overnights that I offered to start back in February.
Of course, S2 also loses out in this situation. I've definitely felt relief in the past that X hasn't tried harder to modify the agreement because I haven't wanted to lose time with my baby. But the older S2 gets and the more his cognitive and emotional abilities increase, the more concerned I feel about how his relationship with his dad is unfolding.
I suggested an arrangement in my last email that would make sure S2 sees him every four days. I also said if he didn't like that, we could be flexible and design an arrangement that suits him and is age-appropriate for S2. A combination of weekly overnights (after a transitional period), weekly dinners, and weekend time on X's schedule.
And still nothing. Not sure what else to do. It seems like he would rather completely forgo the time rather than make a compromise. It's like he has a pathological inability to 'lose'. To a selfish man, collaboration, cooperation, and compromise feels like defeat. What a sad way to live life.
It seems like he would rather completely forgo the time rather than make a compromise. It's like he has a pathological inability to 'lose'.
Pathological is the operative word here. Also, as I predicted, once you offered him more time, he would decline to take it because, whoa, that would mean he has to do the WORK of parenting.
And honestly, although I know you are trying to foster a good relationship between your son and his father - the truth is, some dads are better off as minimal "Disney" dads. Seriously - what of any value is he going to learn from this guy as his father? I'd just document all the time that he has declined custody, and the fact that he doesn't want to take any weekends, for the courts. And unless S2 is begging to see daddy, just let it become the norm that "daddy" is just a sometime thing. Find some better male role models for S2 in his life as he grows up. (One young woman I know is raising her two sons pretty much by herself without much help from the two deadbest who fathered them, but her dad has stepped in as a great role model. My niece, as I have recounted before, had minimal visitation with her uninvolved biodad growing up but a great relationship with the stepfather who married my sister when the niece was 6. )
I’ve actually asked myself that question many times. I doubt he’ll teach him anything of importance because he doesn’t value the things that are important— honesty, integrity, courage, fidelity, patience, sacrifice, gratitude etc. My stepdad is a wonderful and very present role model for S2 who spends time with him weekly. I’ve got some high quality male friends and partners of friends who see themselves as uncles, too.
X ditched both his visitations this week citing another pending COVID test and work commitments, but asked for a morning breakfast to make up for the missed time, which I had no reason to refuse.
Apparently S2 hasn’t seen OW in weeks. X took S2 to see his family on Sunday and OW didn’t go with them. He texted that he’d be late for pickup. I didn’t hear him knock when he arrived. So he stood there silently for ten minutes then texted in a snit to say he had been waiting. Why didn’t he just knock again?!
Still no response about changing the parenting plan. Going on three weeks of silence now.
Life is very good. We have only two active COVID cases in our state and have had zero new cases since July. So things are pretty well back to normal. S2 is doing toddler gymnastics and toddler karate every week which is fun.
I’ve finally got my bedroom all set up. It’s all new, from the bed frame to the mattress to the sheets to the bedside tables. There’s nothing in there that X has touched. Lots of potted green plants and inspirational artwork and a neutral charcoal, grey and oatmeal colour scheme. It’s very peaceful.
I’m thinking about putting my useless degree to work and writing a novel. It’s been ten years since graduating uni so my skills are pretty rusty. But a story idea is there.
It’s interesting how my mindset has shifted since all this happened. I find myself tending to a life that is very deliberate and meaningful. Down to the little things like buying the nice cheese at the store, and making sure the ice cube tray is stocked for a cold drink, and having avocados in the fruit bowl at all times. Just being present in the moment and grateful at all times. A humbling sense of peace and contentment.
The bedroom sounds lovely!
AS for the novel writing - check out NaNoWriMo and the organizer's book "No Plot, No Problem". It's National Novel Writing Month and it's held every November. It's a writing challenge to write a certain number of words (I can't remember, think it's 50,000) in a month. The idea is to turn off your internal critic and just focus on making the word count - you can edit and revise later. They have challenges and meetups and all kinds of online support. It would be perfect for you and the timing is great - next month! Check it out online.
Ooo yes, thanks for the reminder. I did Nanowrimo in 2010 and wrote a very serious urban fantasy young adult novel. Wonder if I can reactivate my account after all these years!
X just picked up S2 for his makeup visit. He actually said “thank you” to me at the front door. Quite sincerely (for him). Normally there is no dialogue, just greetings and farewells to S2. Odd.
Toodling around the internet this morning led me to this runaway husband post. It resonated.
My exhusband would occasionally say he was unhappy a couple times a year, and while I stepped up to try and work on things every time he did this, he did nothing on his end. So basically, I was rewarding him for his emotional neglect while he didn’t have to lift a finger. I tried to spend more time with him, be hotter in the bedroom and make more of an effort, ask him to go on dates with me, etc. He must have known that saying he’s unhappy would warrant my immediate flood of attention for him while he didn’t have to return the favor. He used me.
Hi Scout,
Just wanted to tell you that your post about the avocados and ice and nice cheese resonated so much with me. Three years ago (before the A) we planted three avocado trees. They're finally fruiting this season so I have as many avocados as I want, but I need to manage the timing of the picking and the ripening... your post made me spend a little more time thinking about things like this. I've (sadly) let a number of avocados go south because I miss their perfect day. Since you posted this, I've checked every day and had that unmatched pleasure of opening a perfectly ripe avocado almost every day. Which I owe to you ...thank you. It has been beautiful. I'm drinking a daquiri made of fresh squeezed lime juice, simple syrup, and rum only. Made a beautiful eggplant parmesan which is currently in the oven. Thank you for helping me to remember the beauty of all these simple, perfect pleasures.
Glad your ex said TY but hoping it only blipped on your radar screen long enough to post it.
xx M
Yasss, May! Get those avos. I'm envious of your endless supply. It costs me $8 for a bag of 5 at my local grocer. Loved hearing about your self-care. Food is self-care for me, too.
Last night I made zucchini tots and honey soy steak for me and S2's dinner. I've been prepping fresh pawpaw and pineapple at the start of every week for snacks. I also made the most delicious lemon bars using lemons from our tree.
It's coming into summer here which means it's mango season. A tray of mangoes disappears very quickly in December. The scent is heavenly. Christmas down under means BBQs, tropical fruit, prawns, salads, pavlovas... Yum.
For a long time after X left, I would cook healthy, fresh meals for S2, but feed myself junk food. Not sure the psychology behind that... Anyway, keep investing in yourself. You are worth it.
Oh winter down under.... so dreamy!
My parents lived in Oz (I was conceived there) for many years and we have adopted family there. I have spent a few Christmas’s there over the years with my ‘grandparents’, and have to say that those BBQ’s and fresh fruit and pavlovas are just about as good as it gets for us Northern Hemispherers.
Scout, you sound great these days. Thank you for sharing that quote you found, it really resonated with me.
How was S after his visit with Dad? How have you been holding up since the discovery of the possible departure of OW? I can imagine it would bring up a lot of feelings no matter how detached and moved on you are.
I too have revamped my bedroom and it now feels like such a sacred space to me. I still can’t picture anyone else in there with me, but maybe one day.
(((Scour)))
On the other hand, Sage-- I've never had a white Christmas! Maybe one day. I'd settle for seeing snow for the first time. You've had the best of both worlds. Hopefully you can make it back here someday after all this COVID craziness.
Thank you, I do feel pretty great these days.
The reality is that S2 does not have an evident attachment to his dad. When X drops S2 home, he doesn't give the boy a cuddle or tell him he loves him. On S2's part, he ignores X as soon as I open the front door and runs toward me in relief. He is content enough to go with X whenever he visits, which is good. But he never asks for him or about him on the in-between days unless I raise the topic.
The other day we were talking about it and he said "My dad doesn't like cuddles"... Yikes. S2 is a very loving, tactile child; so much so that his daycare teacher calls him Casanova! So that was a bit sad to hear.
The daycare had parent teacher night recently. I kept an eye on the signup sheet to see if X would book an appointment; spoiler alert, he didn't. The feedback I received was wonderful. They said S2 is a mature, sensitive and confident little boy who is advanced in every area. He is even-keeled and agreeable and responds well to instruction. He verbalises emotions amazingly well, eg. "I am feeling frustrated because you told me no".
He's not a perfect child by any means; he's still a toddler after all! He'll be three in February. X has now officially been out of his life longer than he was in it. A sobering thought.
Regarding the OW, I haven't really given it much thought beyond idle curiosity and the potential impact on S2. If they have split up, I feel a bit sorry for X. I think he'll struggle with intimate relationships his whole life. He really did have it easy with me as I was so accommodating. I'm interested in what, if any, lessons he's learning now that he's branched out and had experience with someone else.
I do wonder whether he will mellow in his attitude if OW isn't in the picture and he's no longer trying to justify and defend his affair. He hasn't responded further about changing the custody agreement to give him more time. It wasn't a totally useless exercise-- he now knows where I stand, long-term, regarding education, extracurriculars, holidays etc. So I guess we'll maintain the status quo unless he feels motivated enough to change it.
Regardless of his relationship status, I'm not expecting him to have any grand realisations or regrets or remorse. It's more likely he'll continue finding ways to blame me, especially if he is a 'dark triad' personality, as kml said.
Years ago X and I had an argument over a brand new motorbike he'd bought without my knowledge or input. I was upset he'd taken out a $10k personal loan while we were scrimping and saving for a house deposit. He left in a rage, then called to yell at me because he'd dropped the motorbike on the road. I was concerned-- was he hurt? My concern made him more angry. Apparently it was my fault that he'd dropped the bike because I'd started the argument and made him lose his focus. I mean, really?!
I'm so glad you've revamped your bedroom, Sage. It's an empowering act to reclaim your space. (((Sage)))
Years ago X and I had an argument over a brand new motorbike he'd bought without my knowledge or input. I was upset he'd taken out a $10k personal loan while we were scrimping and saving for a house deposit. He left in a rage, then called to yell at me because he'd dropped the motorbike on the road.
Wow - so easy to see now how wrong this whole scenario was, isn't it? Amazing. You must feel so FREE!
As for S2 - it's just as well that he doesn't seem to miss his dad when he's not there. I'd be glad OW isn't there, just so as not to have to pretend their affair was ok, but I hope he finds another, hopefully decent, girlfriend so there's another adult around when your ex has your son.
Freedom! There is a conversation in May's thread about affairs saving marriages. X's affair saved me FROM my marriage. Lol.
Freedom! There is a conversation in May's thread about affairs saving marriages. X's affair saved me FROM my marriage. Lol.
I had to look up 'dark triad' and all I can say is that the above is so true for you!
Sounds like you are such a good mama, S2 sounds darling and well-adjusted. FWIW, my kids also don't ask about their dad or ask to call him when they are with me. It is very much an 'out of sight, out of mind' situation with them towards him. And he is trying to be a very invested Dad.
It goes to show that the investment we make with our kids does pay off. And in the end, we can only control our relationship with our kids; we have no control over their R with their Dad (assuming that we are neutral, kid-forward and not vilifying Dad to kids etc). In the absence of harmful behavior, abuse, etc, I am learning that it is best to let H navigate his own R with the kids. I can only navigate my own.
I don't often have down days anymore but I'm in my feelings tonight.
Is it better to have had a family and lost it, or never had it to begin with? I've been raising this child on my own since he was 15 months old. But in reality I never had an equal partner from the day he was born. I feel horrified that his father has once again rejected him by ghosting this latest round of custody negotiations. I feel cheated out of sharing my son's childhood with his father. There will never been a family holiday, or Christmas, or birthday party. My son will never have a full sibling, and I'd be surprised if he has any siblings at all. I don't want to have a child with a different man, but I might have had another child with X. That choice was taken away. I know that me and S2 are a family together, yes. My family of origin are just down the road so we aren't isolated. But I see my younger stepsister and her husband and S1 at family events and I feel envious. X-SIL has her husband and two kids and I'm not allowed to be their aunty anymore. So many people have been hurt by the actions of one selfish man. He has never once looked back at the destruction he has caused. I know he svcks and I don't want him back. But to not even give his wife or son a backward glance? Did we mean that little? I know it's not about me or anything I've done (or not done), it's about him and his character. His complete nonchalance and minimisation of what he's done scares me. The betrayal of the affair is whatever, she can have him. But being abandoned so totally in an instant has rewritten the very cells in my body with lifelong trauma. Other spouses do waffle, try to come back, express confusion, or at the very least check in with the ex-spouse and children. Even though I no longer love him, being ghosted by my spouse has permanently altered the fabric of my soul. I don't even want to contemplate how my son will feel when he grows up. I've always been staunch on telling children the age-appropriate truth, but I'm starting to feel that I can never tell the truth to my son for fear of damaging his own soul. Falling in love with another woman is at least understandable. But how do you process the fact that your own father doesn't want you? The reality is that he'll internalise his father's abandonment without me having to explain anything at all. I will say that reading about DnJ's children gives me hope. Thank you DnJ.
Thank you for reading this Sunday night stream of consciousness.
Scout ~
Processing the trauma of a D, especially a high-conflict D, takes a lot of time and I think it is a non-linear process. I'm sorry you are having a hard time with your feelings, but it is part of the process.
Your X has a narrative that drives his words and actions, and you will never understand that narrative.
Yes, it's rotten. But don't fall into the trap of "horribilizing" either. S2 will have your stepsister's S1 to grow up with - and in some ways, cousin relationships can be close and less difficult than sibling relationships. You might end up with a man who has kids the same age and S2 will have siblings. not blood, but blood siblings are no guarantee of compatibility anyway. You could choose to have a second child if you wished to any number of ways. And there's nothing at all wrong with being an only child. You can surround yourself with "chosen family" who have kids the same age.
Yes, your ex's actions have a ripple effect. But you are also fortunate to have gotten out of this relationship with what you have, and to no longer be under his gaslighting spell. Your life is going to be so much better going forward without him.
Hello scout
being abandoned so totally in an instant has rewritten the very cells in my body with lifelong trauma.
...
Even though I no longer love him, being ghosted by my spouse has permanently altered the fabric of my soul.
(((Hugs)))
I’ll tell you something, from a little further down the path.
Souls, and hearts, grow back.
We can and do heal and embrace our new reality. We live and love life again. And children do it much quicker and better than us stubborn adults.
I have no doubt that S2 (almost S3) is going to grow up just fine. How do I know? Look in the mirror. He has one great caring Mom.
It only takes one strong and stable parent. Don’t fret over the loss of the traditional family model. I lost plenty of sleep during my first months over my tore apart family. In reality, W/Mom left, a few friends left, and some relatives no longer reach out to us. That’s it. We are still a family. A strong family. It’s kind of inspiring living through this and knowing that.
Do not fear having age appropriate discussions and answering son’s questions. Feed his hungry mind. He needs answers and direction. And will find it elsewhere if not from you.
In the eyes of a child a parent is godlike, knows all, can ground them for eternity, can do anything, and loves them unconditionally.
Then around the teenager years, we must hit our head, for we become as dumb as a clump of dirt, apparently.
Then into the twenties we suddenly get smart again.
Hooray!
And through it all, no matter how godlike or feet of clay we are, they know we love them.
And a lot of those answers and direction come from them watching how we live our lives, through all those years. Don’t ever sell the gal in the mirror short, she’s a pretty darn good example.
Yes XH is loosing out. S2 won’t. He will have awesome experiences with you. And by the way, you don’t need to try to fill in for absent Dad. I couldn’t be, and didn’t be, my kids’ Mom. Just upped my game a little. (Oh my, the birth control talk. Shudder. Lol)
You know, it’s a good thing to question and doubt all that stuff. That shows you recognize it, and you can then make a difference.
You got this!
D
Scout, I hope you are feeling better.
You are better off without X.
S is better off without X.
Life is better off without X.
Family, love, and support come in many ways. Blood relation is only the very minimal form of bond.
What's the point of being wanted by someone who you don't want?
and totally agree - DnJ's children give me hope as well.
Hi Scout,
Oh, I know how you are feeling. I've been there too, so many times (though with a slightly different soundtrack). I think you should forgive yourself for feeling down about it. You are so strong and independent and I'm guessing it is hard for you to feel this way.
But.
Maybe the permanent altering of your soul is a good thing. It was horrifically traumatic and nothing you'd wish upon anyone. But through the process you've become stronger, so much stronger. You're trusting yourself, you have confidence and strength for years, you are the best mom I've ever seen. I know you aren't an Esther Perel fan and the commentary on my thread about affairs making a relationship stronger is all laughable. But what she says could be applicable to you if you substitute yourself for the relationship... she says she would no sooner recommend someone have an affair than she would recommend they get cancer.
But over and over, people emerge from trauma stronger than before, and in the end while they never would have chosen it, the growth and learning it engendered is a tremendous gift. Think of all you've learned about yourself and about human nature. The next relationship you choose to participate in will be healthy and the next partner you choose to spend time and energy on will be worthy. I know it, you know it. You'll never allow yourself to be gaslit again. Meanwhile, your X will keep toodling away at his sad and unfulfilling life, and my guess is over time you'll have many, many more times when you're thanking your stars to be Ded from him than times spent wondering what happened and why.
The scar will always be there. But you're stronger than you were before and so much better off without him dragging you down.
Thank you, wonderful people. ((((unchien, kml, DnJ, wooba, may))))
You don’t know how much I truly needed to hear your words that day. Thank you.
I’m a little embarrassed to admit here that the reason for that pity party was likely hormonal. I track my cycle with an app, but had a much shorter one than usual and therefore no warning that anything was going on under the hood. Since going off the pill at the start of the year, I tend to experience a serious depressive episode during the last week of my cycle. Not every cycle, but at least 50% of the time. I’m considering going back on the pill to prevent these episodes as I do find myself contemplating the final solution, so to speak, during them. At least when I know it’s PMS, I can rationalise these illogical thoughts and power through with self-care. This time, I was spinning and spiralling for seemingly no reason, which made me feel even worse. I would never, ever do anything that would place such a terrible burden on S2. It’s more of a quiet desperation that leaves me feeling unable to cope and wishing for a measure of peace. I am safe.
The joys of being a woman!
Good Morning scout
Feelings, regardless of cause, are real. And fleeting. As you can obviously attest.
Remaining on the pill is often not just for birth control reasons. There are tangible benefits for one’s emotional self. Depression is a tough road to walk. Even cyclic episodes are difficult to sometimes see beyond.
I’m considering going back on the pill to prevent these episodes as I do find myself contemplating the final solution, so to speak, during them. At least when I know it’s PMS, I can rationalise these illogical thoughts and power through with self-care.
There is a hidden problem within that, one cannot rationalize well when gripped by irrational feelings.
Illogical thoughts are created and reinforced by irrational feelings. True in days you return to normal levels. However, you can lessen the hormonal pressure pretty simply, and that is good news for you. I believe you wise to consider resuming the pill and lessening the emotional swings.
Contemplations of the final solution are normal, and do need to be addressed. Depression leads to some desolate and desperate emotional landscapes. My own contemplations had a desperate measure of wanting to find peace.
I hope you do not think of this as mansplaining. I’ve got a plethora of feelings under the hood. Two, I think. Lol.
(((scout)))
D
Thanks DnJ. You never fail to make me smile, or ponder, depending on the angle of your posts! This one achieved both.
Last week, I decided to make one final attempt to update the parenting plan. This is the email I sent:
Hi
I haven't heard anything further about modifying the parenting plan.
I am keen to get a new arrangement finalised so S2 can get comfortable staying overnight away from home. It took about six weeks for him to get settled without being upset at bedtime. Now that he is feeling safe and happy again, I'm planning to get him used to having sleepovers at my parents' home. I thought this would be a good opportunity for him to start having fortnightly sleepovers at your house as well, so he can be prepared for weekly overnights by age 3. I am happy to share information about his bedtime routine so there can be consistency and familiarity for him.
FYI there was a parent-teacher night recently at daycare. I spoke to S2's teachers about your concerns of helicopter parenting. She assured me that S2 is a mature, sensitive, and confident little boy who is advanced in every area of development for his age and shows no signs of anxiety or unhealthy attachment. I hope this educated assessment alleviates your concerns.
Thanks
Haven't heard anything in response yet. If he continues to stonewall, I can either a) continue with the status quo which leaves me without a legally enforceable agreement; or b) book mediation as a prerequisite for filing parenting consent orders with the court. I'm not sure what to do.
It's funny, though-- sending this email made me lose the last bit of fear I had around losing time with S2. I've called X's bluff three times now by saying 'YES, TAKE HIM!' when he starts making demands. It's been nearly a year since the first time I agreed to an increase. And here we are with the same agreement we put in place in August 2019.
Yes - it's obvious that he really doesn't want that much time or responsibility for S2, he just cared about "winning". In Aikido I understand that the goal is to use your attacker's momentum to throw them. In this case, you are kind of doing the same thing.
Will wonders never cease! X has replied.
I would love to start fortnightly sleepovers.
Saturday nights would be great. Pick up 5pm
I would also love Tuesdays to be extended to 7.30-8pm with pick up from my house.
Thanks
So he’s onboard with the schedule I originally suggested. Works for me.
The caveat that I pick up S2 is a little on the nose. I’m happy to do it because it means he can’t withhold him overnight. But I recall him saying in an email last year, bolded and underlined, that I would never be welcome at his house. I suppose that doesn’t apply when it’s convenient for me to do the pickup.
I just informed S2 about the new arrangement. “You’re going to have a special sleepover at dad’s house on Saturday. It will be so much fun to sleep in your Thomas the Tank Engine bed, wont it?”
He replied “No, thanks. I want to stay at Nanny and Gigi’s [my parents’] house.”
However, I’m sure it will be fine and he will have fun. I’ll make sure he’s prepared and that X is informed about the bedtime routine etc. Hopefully OW will be there to help out as S2 has gotten attached to her.
This is really great, Scout!
You did an inspirational job of playing the long game and using the Aikido method (ala KML) to get what you wanted in the end.
The caveat that I pick up S2 is a little on the nose. I’m happy to do it because it means he can’t withhold him overnight. But I recall him saying in an email last year, bolded and underlined, that I would never be welcome at his house. I suppose that doesn’t apply when it’s convenient for me to do the pickup.
It's back to the whole 'believe nothing that they say and only 50% of what they do'. I think that concept can be applied to any acrimonious relationship. We humans can be so impulsive when we say something in the heat of a bad moment.
But this is something to watch as you move forward in your coparenting relationship... X says things he doesn't really mean. (hmmm... reminds me of an earlier convo when he accused you of helicopter parenting among other things). So you can pretty much dismiss most anything he says.
((Scout))
Thanks, Sage! You're right and I needed the reminder. Above all else, X has always been a liar. It was something that made me very uncomfortable over the years. I'm trusting by nature, so staying on guard will take a bit of effort! I just need to come here for my 2x4s and UBT (Universal Bullsh!t Translator, for the non-Chump Lady fans).
There has been more movement on the parenting plan. He has agreed with the schedule I suggested up until S2 starts school at age 5. HOORAY. That gives me a LOT of peace. The only outstanding item now is Christmas Day. It remains to be seen if he will let the entire agreement fall apart based on this one day.
I'm pushing to get written agreement prior to implementing the new schedule this Saturday. No signature, no changes. It's become quite easy for me to address X without emotion and share the same information that I would with any caregiver. He is free to take or leave that information. Here's hoping for a signed agreement today or tomorrow.
I'm so grateful to everyone on here for the support, advice, and encouragement throughout this process. It's silly how proud I feel for sticking to my boundaries politely and firmly and not allowing him to bully or goad me into anything. The light at the end of the tunnel is near. I'm ready, S2 is ready. The next stage of our life is about to start.
scout ~ Congrats on the movement! When things get so tense and gridlocked it's great when there is any progress at all!
We're still stuck on Christmas Day. The current arrangement is for me to have Christmas Eve/morning and X to have Christmas afternoon/Boxing Day. I want this every year, he wants alternating years. I'm just not willing to budge. I told him when he ran off 18 months ago that Christmas Day was the most important family day of the year to me. At the time, he was so positively giddy about leaving that he agreed to whatever I wanted.
In the midst of a tense email discussion on the topic, he sent my stepdad a text without my knowledge asking him to make me be reasonable. That made me feel kinda steamed; I felt like my boundaries were violated. My stepdad has acted as a mediator before during an in-person negotiation, but that was all done out in the open, not surreptitiously. My stepdad was more gracious than me about the assumed motivation behind the text.
The email discussion started to devolve into threats and accusations on his end, so I had to step away for a bit because I started to get the panicked feeling of wanting to climb out of my own skin and run away to avoid dealing with this crap. I went to my friend's house and vented over a cuppa. Then I pulled myself together and wrote back a polite, empathetic, and solution-focused email that he really didn't deserve.
He offered for me to spend Christmas morning with them opening presents! WTF. I would rather spend every Christmas alone than make a mockery of what would have otherwise been a happy and joyous family event. Does he think I'm going to sit there with him and OW watching our son open presents like some sort of blended family composed of old friends whose relationship simply ran its course? W. T. F.
Soooo that's where things stand. X is now stonewalling again. There's no new parenting plan without agreement on Christmas Day. I'm not trying to punish X with this arrangement. If I thought S2 was missing out by not waking up with his dad on Christmas, I would sacrifice my own desires to give him that opportunity. If it came to down to a point where I was forced to do that, I would live with it. But as long as I have a choice, I'm doing this one thing for myself.
In other news, X took S2 to the zoo yesterday with X-SIL, her husband and kids, X-MIL and X-FIL. OW wasn't there.
Take the DEAL!!!! Splitting every other Xmas day is totally reasonable AND the odds are still pretty good that he won't take it when the time comes anyway.
Yes it is rotten that divorce leads to these awkward Xmas arrangements. My kids were 17-21 when our divorce happened and we alternated holidays. It's tough but not the end of the world. We alternated - one year I would have them Xmas eve, then they would go down to spend the night at their dad's and spend Xmas morning with him. The next year the reverse. I still had my mom and some other family to spend Xmas day with on the years I didn't have them.
One year my kids left after our Xmas eve together and my mom had gone to visit my sister in another state for Xmas. That could have been tough - BUT - I actually had the sexiest Xmas eve date/sleepover with a guy who I still think of fondly every Xmas, and the next night went to a super cool LA grownups party that a friend of my best friend used to throw every year - all these very cool LA people in arts and music would be there. Was it the same as having my adult kids on Xmas morning? no. Was it still fun? heck yes.
You just move your intense Xmas unwrapping/fun to another time slot, that's all. And if I'm right, your ex will end up not taking nearly as much time on Xmas as he has the rights to anyway.
(btw we also alternated Thanksgiving - at first it was dinner at one house and dessert at the other, which quickly became alternating years Thanksgiving, which then became my ex going out of town every Thanksgiving and the kids always coming to my house where the food was better anyway!)
My agreement went in stages; maybe you can try that. Say that you want it this way until S is 6 years old, and then you will alternate. So far my wasband has never taken all the time he could and has missed many holidays we were to split. It's possible that his desire will fade and he'll forget by the time S is 6; if not, you'll be less raw then and can figure out a fun way to make it through that night -- maybe by finding a family in need and helping those kids on X-Mas morning!
Splitting the kids is horrible. It's why we were standing. Your feelings are right. But it's best to make a deal as a judge could give you less. If things go badly you can always fight for a custody change a year from now, when you have lots of records.
kml-- I see your point. Truly, I do. I can do Christmas another time and it will be okay. I can celebrate in an adult way and it will be okay. I can create new traditions and it will be okay. It's just a calendar date, I agree. But Christmas morning is most special the first five or ten years of a child's life. It's different (still hard, of course, but different) with adult kids. If I absolutely have to compromise, I will. But not yet. I've given myself permission to be selfish on this one issue. What I can and will offer as the next step in negotiation is to revisit the issue when the entire parenting plan is reviewed in two years.
ETA: Gerda-- that'll be my compromise. I love the idea of hosting an orphan's Christmas or volunteering somewhere on the day.
Hello scout
Christmas morning’s specialness is eclipsed by the specialness of being together.
Our family tradition was to open gifts Christmas morning with Grandma and Grandpa joining the family. My parents would arrive bright and early and it was “that” special morning.
After my Dad became paralyzed, Christmas morning became Christmas late morning / afternoon. That happened when the kids were ranged somewhere between 2 to 7. We learned pretty quick, it’s special due to the people, not the time of day, nor the date.
Christmas was put on hold plenty due to my work as well. You’d be surprised at how many ice storms and power problems happen on Christmas holidays. Many times I’ve been out restoring power to give other families a Christmas, then returned and resumed our celebration.
As fate would have it; tonight I was at S22’s for supper. He and I were talking about lots of things; it was a great visit. Anyhow, one of the things he brought up was our family times; Christmases, vacations, birthdays, etc. He was looking at the pictures and had so many fond and happy stories and memories. The joyous happy Christmas happened when it happened, whenever the actual day was.
I’ve been feeling really happy since that talk with my boy. So many trips, vacations, holidays, and so on; mixed in the grind of raising a family, school, work, etc. And to have your child look back fondly, with a certain awe and appreciation is so heartwarming. There are times when parents doubt if they are doing right. Then years later your kids grow up enough to let you know know you did good.
Share Christmas. Don’t worry about the date. You and son’s special time exists beyond the boundaries of one day. It is being with you that is special. And that is timeless.
D
I love the idea of hosting an orphan's Christmas
The grownups party I attended was an annual affair called the Loser’s Christmas. Hosted by a lifelong bachelor who happened to be the guy who signed my best friend to her first record deal, he was a friend to - and loved by - many people. Musicians , business people, artists. One year I chatted with Blondie’s drummer and a guy who designs rides for theme parks. Most were people without kids or without family nearby to spend the day with.
The host was Jewish and came from a somewhat troubled family. So this was his holiday, spent with his friends. He loved to see everybody having a good time. He held this party annually for over 20 years.
Sadly, last year he committed suicide - it shocked everyone who knew him, and we still suspect an adverse reaction to medication may have triggered it. There’s a giant sized hole in the hearts of all who knew him. I feel honored to have been included in that circle if only for a few times.
Scout, the thought of Christmas without my children makes me want to vomit, so I totally understand where you are coming from. 3 out of the 4 are 'believers' and thanks to Covid and not being in person in school, I anticipate it will stay that way for this year. But I too feel the magic will only last so long and am so sad to have to lose even a moment of that stage.
But I also think that in some ways it may not be the hill to die on. DnJ is right in that plenty of families have to be creative on their Christmas 'timing' and really, in the end, the children benefit by the extra love and attention from multiple families. Cold comfort right now, for us both.
2x4? The thing about Christmas is that the whole family will have a strong opinion with their bias interfering. So it will be H's whole family against you as they know they will 'win' or 'lose' in this particular fight too. Do you really want to take that on for a few hours of Christmas morning magic? Do you really want MIL picking apart the parenting plan for details they could use as negotiating ammo for Christmas custody exchange?
I feel you, sister.
However emotional you feel about this issue, your relationship with your X is essentially a business relationship. And what you are talking about is a negotiation (in this case, a parenting plan including holiday schedule).
If Christmas is a dealbreaker for you, then so be it. I get it, and the other posters who responded do too. It is the most difficult holiday and I've only been through one round of it so far. I'm not going to judge what you should or shouldn't do, although I think it's good to know what a court would order so you know what "default" you are working with.
Going back to the business analogy, it's hard to make agreements without offering something in return.
In the process of my D (still ongoing) I gave my X a few things she wanted. I didn't feel fair, I had to grit my teeth at times. I also got a few things that I really wanted.
I'm just curious if there is anything you could offer in return? Not necessarily something comparable.
Hi Scout,
Just reaching out to say I totally, totally get it. In fact, I'm still LIVING with my husband because I would rather slog through the difficulties of trying to make it work with him than lose out on any moments, Christmas morning being a biggie, with my children.
As Unchien says-- from a pure negotiation standpoint, what do you know about him that he would value that you would not, so much, that you could trade? And/or, do you think he's playing you this way, somewhat-- he knows how important this is to you, so is pushing here in order to get something else he wants?
Another thought... my H and I both live far away from our parents (who also live far away from each other). We always alternated between flying to my parents' and flying to his, and trying to coordinate schedules with our siblings and their respective in-laws too. One thing we always did was have Santa come Christmas morning no matter where we were, even if usually we'd open our own family presents to each other before we left so that we wouldn't have to pack all the presents on the plane.
One interesting thing is that my H's brother will normally have Santa come on the 23rd or 24th, before they leave their city to drive to his parents so that they don't have to pack Santa's gifts in the car. His kids didn't bat an eye. So, there is no reason that Santa can't come to your house on Christmas Eve morning so that you still get that special time with him. Blow it all up just like it is Christmas morning. S2 will get TWO Santa visits! (And I'm going to guarantee that the one at your place is going to be much more magical. I can't imagine knowing what I know of your ex that he's going to work too hard on finding the perfect stocking stuffers.)
The other thing I wanted to note is that as my kids have gotten older, the part where we open our own family presents to and from each other has become more and more special (just like I remember it myself growing up-- we always opened family gifts on Christmas Eve). They are just as excited, if not more so, to have people open the gifts they chose than to open their own presents. When they were younger I always thought that Christmas magic was wrapped up in the magic of Santa. And of course there is a big piece there. But there are so many elements-- decorating the tree, making gingerbread houses and cookies, vacation days, hot cocoa in special Christmas mugs, choosing and wrapping presents-- that I bet you can break down what elements are most meaningful for you and what family traditions you want to create with your son-- and you can make that magic for the season, even if you end up having to miss that one night.
(And, again. I GET IT. It makes me want to be physically violent right now that my H even made me need to THINK about this. I would just try to tease apart why this is so meaningful to you, what elements are the most important, and then figure out how to make those all happen for S2 and you whether on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day or a week before or after.)
((Scout))
Well. I am bawling my eyes out over it, but I just offered alternating days for the next three Christmases up until the parenting plan is reviewed. I knew it wasn’t fair, regardless of all the reasons behind it, and it wasn’t sitting well with me. I didn't have to offer it and I negotiated against myself, which might be foolish. Feels like I‘ve ripped my own heart out.
((((scout))))
A solid stable parenting plan is not foolish. I know, big picture stuff, which aren’t the feelings you are wrapped in right now. (((Hug))) Yes, two hugs today. It’s a tough day.
I’m proud of you scout.
S2 will accept any arrangements. Kids are amazing that way. The magic of Santa will exist no matter what the day. I’m almost 53 and Santa is still magical to me.
Hold your head high girl. You are leading and living a fine example.
D
I second what DnJ said Scout. I think you did the right thing. I know Christmas is a big day but there are ways to make things work. In my situation, last year XH had the kids on Christmas Eve (a bigger deal in his family than in mine) and Christmas morning. He then delivered them to my house at around noon and me, my kids, my sister, my BIL and XH’s mother opened gifts and had Xmas dinner together. My kids loved this arrangement because in the past we always waited for my sister and her husband to arrive to open gifts in the morning and they hated having to wait. This way they didn’t have to. Do I wish I had them the whole time? Of course I do but I’m sure XH does too. Divorce [censored]. It brings about changes to routines and schedules that are not what we want but it doesn’t have to be the end of the world. This year I have a boyfriend with two kids of his own and extended family that are used to a routine. I don’t think that is going to impact me too much this year but if we are still together next year, it probably will. I’m not going to worry about it. My kids and I will always have our Christmas together...it just won’t look like it did before and it may not always be on the 25th.
Honestly...the first Christmas was the worst. It was four months after BD and I was a mess. Every change in routine felt like a huge loss to me. I was just going through the motions. Last year was much better. I was still a bit sad that things were different but the sadness wasn’t constant and I enjoyed myself. I expect that this year will be even better.
You will get through this Scout. You will still make memories with your son. Maybe start some new traditions? For the years that you don’t have him, are there friends or family you could join for Christmas dinner? Or maybe you can volunteer at a dinner for the homeless or something like that? I think that would help.
You are going to be okay Scout. Don’t make it a bigger deal in your mind than it actually is. Right now it feels like a huge sacrifice because you are still adjusting to the new normal. Give it some time. It will get better. (((HUGS)))
24 hours later and no response. What the heck is with this guy? No acceptance or acknowledgement at all?
Unbeknownst to me, my stepdad responded to his text over the weekend. (X had sent him a message asking him to convince me to see reason). SD spoke from the heart about his experience as a LBS with a cheating wife. He said he never again woke up with his young daughters on Christmas Day after his divorce— ‘and I wasn’t even the one who left’. His advice to X was to make the most of the time he has and to respect the sacrifices I make as S2’s primary caregiver. X hasn’t responded to that either.
This is all so complicated. I cried a lot last night. But I feel at peace. By giving it away without being forced, I took away the last bit of power he had over me. I used to think I’d rather die than spend the day without S2. I remember seeing my future literally flash before my eyes the night X said ILYBINILWY. I got on my knees, grabbed his hand, and begged him not to separate me from my baby. My first thought was not for my marriage, but for my son. Christmas Day has been a talisman for me over the past 18 months. A tangible reminder that my family was not completely broken.
But I don’t need it any more.
I remember seeing my future literally flash before my eyes the night X said ILYBINILWY. I got on my knees, grabbed his hand, and begged him not to separate me from my baby.
This is why he is torturing you with it, Scout. Whether it's conscious or not, he knows that's how to hurt you.
Everyone here says to let things go when you can, and I do agree with that to a point as I wrote earlier, to give way but in stages, not because it's best for you but because of what is best for Sweet Little S. But I also think the MLCer is very dangerous to a child. I have said that before on your thread. My kids are older and the older kid version of what your S2 did after the "kidnapping" is shoplifting, skipping school, failing school, wrecking the house, drug use, eating disorders, etc. So I think you have to stay very strict in your communication about always doing what is best for the child. Your S has shown you that being with H can be very traumatic and being with his dad unsupervised is not best for him if his dad is harmful to his mind/heart/body. Some things you can't control but some you can. I assume your H will do a lot to show that he doesn't know how to put a kid first, and you have to have a nice thick file of that stuff and of all the times you stood your ground for your S, not for yourself.
((((Scout))))
and also
(((((((S2))))))))
On the other hand - remember he emotional Aikido. Not giving your ex a handhold to grab, not resisting things that you're not likely to win on, and letting him then have to deal with it - is likely to end up with you getting S2 MORE, not LESS. If your ex sees it as getting a rise out of you, he'll continuing pressing it. If there's not drama and it just ends up being an inconvenience to him to have S2 that much, soon enough you'll see him not taking S2 for all the time he has (in fact that's started already, correct?). I imagine the amount that Ex takes him will fluctuate based on whether he has a girlfriend at the time or not. He'll want to show the girlfriend what a "great dad" he is. His interest in having S2 will fall off when no ones watching.
Also, remember, Xmas is an opportunity for S2 to develop his relationship with his grandparents on that side. Unless they themselves are dangerous, it's generally good for a kid to have all the grandparents he can.
Thanks for the hugs, Gerda. I have to agree with everything you said. My trust in X as a parent is below zero and I hold my breath every time he has S2 in his care. I recall LH19 (or someone on the Newcomers board) admonishing me that I had no right to distrust X as a parent when I'd once trusted this man enough to father and care for my children. That, to me, just ignored a huge amount of context. I'd imagine that many of the custody disputes over there are between two people who genuinely love their kids and want the best for them. It's hard to explain the difference between those people and someone like X, when for all intents and purposes, the situation looks exactly the same, and a judge would see it as such.
I definitely feel stronger for it, kml. And you may be right about his avoidance. There's been 11 months of garbage from X since his first request for increased time-- stonewalling, threats, lies, accusations about my parenting, a kidnapping scare. But the end result is the same-- he has yet to agree to anything that would formally increase his parenting time. The ENTIRE time I've been saying "Yes, as long as XYZ". Where XYZ is things like "You provide your physical address" or "You provide emergency contact information" or "You confirm that S2 has his own bed" or "the arrangement is age-appropriate". The fact that my agreement is conditional, which it has to be for S2's safety and wellbeing, seems to trigger something pathological in X that makes him fight and prevaricate.
Even now that I've agreed to the Christmas arrangement that he wanted, he still hasn't responded to move forward with the increased share of time. He has showed up for his visits this week, but hasn't responded to emails to confirm the new parenting plan. There is nothing holding up the start of the new plan except his signed agreement. I do think that part of this evasion is an unwillingness to be held accountable with a legally enforceable plan. He has built evasive language into nearly every clause of the plan, ie. 'XYZ unless otherwise agreed'. Which is fine, I can handle that. He has always had a pathological aversion to taking responsibility in any area of his life. I'd guess it's because if he never commits to something, nobody can say he's ever failed at anything. Deep down, he's a very insecure person.
OMG. I came across X on Tinder tonight. Whewwwww. So either he and OW broke up, or he’s searching for her replacement. That has nothing to do with me, but I do feel a certain sense of closure. And a little schadenfreude. And a little bemusement. So much devastation for what amounted to nothing more than a fling. What a funny old world.
Good Morning scout
Yes, they built upon the sand of deceit and betrayal. And sand is a terrible foundation.
In the end, it was a fling. The OW means nothing. She was always just a band-aid.
Nice to see some closure I bet.
D
Not surprised that OW seems to be out of the picture.
scout ~
I completely understand your position of having negative trust (below zero) in your X. I feel exactly the same way with my X right now.
Sometimes I sense on your thread there is a lot of vilification of your X. I'm not standing up for the guy. But I also think it's counter-productive to your goals to engage in this thinking or discussion because you are focused on him.
My situation was not the same as yours, but some of the same aspects were there. My W insisted on a lot of conditions when I had the children. I complied for awhile, because we were working with a counselor and I thought it might help us avoid court. After several months I realized that wasn't going to happen, and that my W was not going to let go of the reins. So when she started offering conditional increases of parenting time, I said no. I know she thinks I'm (insert any label you want here) for not accepting her offers, but I don't really care, because I wanted to be a father to my kids without her controlling every aspect.
But I'm not your X, and he may not be interested in being a father in the same way. He could just be doing this to get back at you. I don't really know.
I don't actually have any advice on what to do. You are obviously right to have protective instincts of your son. I hope for you that you can avoid an expensive (emotionally and financially) legal battle down the road, but you can only control your role. Your H may be a loose cannon. Keep that focus on you and how you can stay strong and centered. Your S is lucky to have you
Do I seem overly focused on X? Huh. I don’t feel stuck at all. I’m going to explore this a bit (a lot) below.
I do deliberately look back and reflect when I post here, trying to understand how and why I allowed myself to accept an abusive relationship dynamic for so long. I feel like I’m still being deprogrammed. That’s for my sake, not his. The lengths I went to save (and then grieve) my marriage doesn’t mean it wasn’t an unhealthy and often unhappy one, or that I didn’t fully realise this until after the fact. I don’t believe I’m looking back through a darkened lens, but a clear one. The things I post about it and X are my attempt to tease out patterns of behaviour in order to make sense of what was a hugely traumatic event. Pattern recognition is supposed to be the defining ability which elevated humankind from rudimentary to intellectual beings. It protects us from harm and helps us make smarter decisions. It helped me realise that X is not a safe person for me to be around so I’ve done everything possible to remove him from my life.
Vilification is an interesting word choice. I am absolutely conservative in my thinking when it comes to betrayal, abandonment, and deception. There is no context in which it is acceptable in my book. I do believe that a man who abandons a pregnant wife or new mother deserves harsh judgement, regardless of the circumstances or his personal narrative. Others may disagree. Does he have the right to leave? Of course. I don’t control anyone’s life, and I wouldn’t want that responsibility. I will point out that I don’t know of any other legal contract that one party is unilaterally allowed to break at any time without penalty, but that’s more of a side note. Is it vilification to shine a light on behaviour that is objectively repugnant according to the human code of morality? Betrayal, abandonment, and deception are three of the ugliest moral crimes a person can commit against another. Let alone against the one person in the world you vowed to love, cherish, and protect, and least of all, against the children you chose to bring into this world.
I’m not interested in ‘playing the victim’ in the sense that I deserve or demand pity or sympathy, but to ignore the moral crimes he committed against me is to whitewash the guiding principles of my life. I have no wish to punish X as the ‘perpetrator’ of these crimes. His punishment is living with himself. I do not believe he did the best he could at the time. I do not believe that hurt people hurt people. I believe he stuck around until I no longer had any use or status, and then he discarded me as soon as a better option came along. Simple as that. He has consistently chosen the path of least honour and most cowardice. For any human to exploit another for personal gain is objectively wrong in my belief system. It is abuse. But I forgive him. Forgiveness does not require an admission of guilt. Forgiveness is cancelling a debt that won’t be paid back so you can move on. That’s it. Forgiving that debt is not for the debtor, it’s so the bank can clear their books and have a clean slate. Forgiveness is acceptance. And I know I’ve reached that point.
One thing I’ve always been so careful to do, even when in the emotional doldrums, is to seek legal counsel before taking any position in custody negotiations. I’d never take a position that favoured me for selfish reasons because that would go against my code of honour— except for this Christmas issue. And in the end, I couldn’t live with the discomfort of doing something intrinsically unfair, even though I desperately wanted it and could have made him fight for it. So I’m confident that my conditions for increasing his parenting time were more than reasonable in the eyes of the law, but also within the part of me that governs behaviour— my conscience, I suppose. I’ve never attempted to control his parenting time, even when it has caused me great distress, because I understand that’s out of my wheelhouse and not appropriate. I’ve never asked what he does, where he takes him, who is there. He’s brought him back injured without explanation, and I’ve not demanded one. He is free to parent how he wishes without interference from me.
He has never complied with what very little I’ve asked of him: a) Confirm your address and emergency contact information, and b) stick to the agreement, or sign a new one— that’s literally it. When I asked for assistance caring for a sick baby, he refused. When I asked him to continue the parenting schedule we’d established during the marriage, he refused. Because he “didn’t enjoy it”. He wanted less time. He’s actively circumvented any agreement he voluntarily made with me. From the very beginning when we agreed that he’d spend time with S2 in our marital home to maintain his routine— he’d agreed to feed him breakfast and walk him to daycare in the pram. What he actually did was wait until I left the house, then put S2 in his car and take him back to his house. This was not a condition I set in exchange for visitation; this was a voluntary agreement we discussed and made together. If he had asked, I would have said “yes, take him— I just need to know your address in case of emergency”. He is incapable of reciprocity or cooperation. Like, pathologically incapable. I truly believe this.
This has gotten way longer than anyone cares to read, but it was an interesting thought exercise for me.
Scout, you don’t have to justify yourself to me. Your ex IS pathological, in a Sociopath Next Door way, not in a QLC kind of way. This is not you vilifying him - it’s you finally recognizing what you’ve been dealing with.
Hello scout
I enjoyed your post. I was particularly drawn towards the forgiveness - you got that well in hand by the way. Forgiveness feels so good, doesn’t it?
Is it vilification to shine a light on behaviour that is objectively repugnant according to the human code of morality?
I understand the repugnance of these behaviours. XW’s telling/flaunting us 30 minutes after the act of fully consummating her affair was one of her many notable moments that illustrated her lack of morals.
Is it vilification? Depends on why you’re shining the light. In your case, I believe you are seeking a clear picture and understanding of things. You shine the light to understand and empathize and forgive; the purpose is not to strengthen XH as the villain. Job well done, IMHO.
I do believe that a man who abandons a pregnant wife or new mother deserves harsh judgement...
What about just fair judgement? Harshness come from punishment.
Be patient. We will all be judged, eventual.
Personally, I leave the judging to a higher power. (Most of the time.
) No person is wise enough to see all ends. Judgements upon the morals, or lack of, becomes messy pretty quickly when doled out by us fallible beings.
Seek your clear view without judgement. A wonderful peaceful life awaits for those who find their way.
D
D— I’m an atheist
I don’t believe in a final judgement by a higher power. I don’t believe life has any inherent meaning or purpose. One of my favourite mottos is ‘If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do’. I believe we are honour-bound as temporary citizens of the universe to do no harm, and that’s about it.
This means that living and judging by a universal moral code is the essence of what it means to be human. IMHO!
Judgement isn’t punishment, it’s self-preservation. I judged X as unsafe; therefore I choose to have no contact and parallel parent with him. Our friends judged X as dishonourable; therefore they chose to remove him from their social circle. His employees judged X as lacking integrity; therefore they do not respect him as a manager.
I enjoyed your post too. It’s satisfying to think deeply about these things.
It's been a week now and still no response to my email agreeing with the Christmas plan he wanted. We now have agreement on every aspect of the parenting plan, yet he's still not doing anything to actually make it happen. I'm not going to chase him. I feel good, I feel strong, I feel fearless.
My sister came over to help put up the tree yesterday. She, being 26 on a Sunday, was hungover, so we ordered some fast food and made rum balls. S2 had an absolute ball playing with all the various ornaments. I got him a tabletop tree of his very own and he was thrilled. I love, love, love my twinkling tree, decorated in gold, silver, and white.
Happy days!
Good Lord.
X wrote back about Christmas saying it's still not fair. He claimed that I have not stuck to my word about the Christmas arrangement I agreed to last year with him and his mother... What?!
Given that I expected to have S2 every Christmas, I've never committed to any other arrangement until now. He knows this because I've stated many, many times that I would not budge on Christmas. And his mother has never been involved in any custody discussion. Straight up lies, gaslighting, and manipulation... but for absolutely no reason. He's getting what he originally wanted, so why continue to invent new issues?
The arrangement couldn't be more fair; alternating yearly:
- 5pm Christmas Eve to 5pm Christmas Day with one parent
- 5pm Christmas Day to 5pm Boxing Day with the other parent
He's also splitting hairs on the changeover time and wants it to be 3pm instead of 5pm. Every other holiday, birthday, special occasion we've agreed on has a 5pm changeover time. Why do I have to continue to compromise? Every time I do, he comes up with another petty issue to argue. It truly seems like he just wants to kick the can down the road forever to avoid having to sign a new agreement. When does it end?
Does anyone have any advice?
Document everything in emails that you keep copies of. Offer him to compromise with 4 pm. Repeat that you never made any kind of promise last year. Reiterate that you are giving him exactly what he requested before and do not understand why he keeps changing things. Those statements will look good to a court if it come to that.
Basically, he's yanking your chain - looking for anything to keep the attention going, even if it's negative attention. Don't let him suck you in to conflict.
I agree with kml-- he's yanking your chain. Utterly ridiculous and crazy-making, of course, but this is his last fingerhold and he's digging in.
I also agree with kml on your response, but also wondering what your timeline is on this and how badly you need/want this wrapped up by any given date. Is there any reason to respond right away? Maybe taking your time on responding (and not stewing about it, knowing how you'll respond but just giving it all some time) would be helpful to take a bit more power back on this one. (or, it could be the other way around, that a quick and gentle response -- I'm so sorry, I do not recall any agreement with your mother, but I do think this split is fair. How about we say 4 pm tradeoff and call it a day?-- could take the wind out of his sails.) IDK. He doesn't seem motivated by healthy things.
Also, since it seems as though he's broken up with OW, it is too bad you weren't able to get this all buttoned up while he was distracted with her. I'm sure he had images of the romantic candlelit Christmas Eve with OW in his head before, and not having S2 in the picture seemed just fine. Now he's imagining a lonely night and is lashing out at you to take away the one thing he knows you care about the most so that everyone can be equally unhappy, bringing his mom into the picture even-- ugh. (BTW, what is he even complaining about with this arrangement? Do you even know what he's claiming you agreed to with his mom??) Maybe if you wait a few weeks he'll start dating and get distracted again, and you can pounce then.
Hang in there. This is just smoke and mirrors from him right now. Hopefully the very last gasp.
Scout, I would let it go as May says. You can't negotiate with the personality-disordered, you just can't. They will take the toxic connection over nothing. All you can do is take the steps you must along the way to protect yourself. You have to let the rest go. You've tried to be reasonable. I'm cheering you on and love your descriptions of that wonderful little boy of yours and continue to find amazement at how plucky you are, particularly given your age. I love your attitude about life and decency. You are an amazing mom and are doing right by your son and that is what matters most.
Why do I have to continue to compromise? Every time I do, he comes up with another petty issue to argue. It truly seems like he just wants to kick the can down the road forever to avoid having to sign a new agreement. When does it end?
Does anyone have any advice?
Same advice as others. Document. Stay consistent. Don't take the emotional bait.
I also see a lot of speculation from others on your X's thought process, which I think is completely counter to DB principles. "He's thinking this, he's doing that, OW"... this is what I meant earlier about villainizing. I don't see you doing this in your posts, but I hope you don't fall into this trap. It is not detachment. It may help motivate you with anger or help you stay strong but it is not really what DB principles (as I understand them) teach. The ONLY reason I think the WHY could matter is if you are trying to understand his motives so that you can come to some sort of compromise on an issue. Otherwise... waste of mental energy.
I spoke with someone this year who D'ed his W with a small child. She pestered him with constant legal filings and actions for 16 years. Maybe it will never end.
I hope this doesn't happen in your case. The fact is, you can't control when it ends. You CAN control how you handle it and compartmentalize the insanity your X brings into your life into a tiny little box.
My X and I are in a similar endless loop over every little thing it seems. Although I would like to hope a finalized D will end the conflict, I am prepared for that not to be the case.
Hi scout -
I agree with the others. Perhaps letting it sit a bit before you answer will help take some of the emotional sting out of the initial reaction.
I f it were me, i would stay away from anything involving the word "fairness" - that's emotional bait. It plays into the ridiculousness of what they call "time of possession" in football. My F and M did this for 20 years after their D.
If I were you, I would stick to the facts.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I was unaware of an agreement with your M.
As per our original agreement, the changeover was to happen at 5pm.
If 5 pm does not work for you, 4pm will be fine.
Try not to think of this compromise as a metaphor for your whole situation. It is only one interaction. You're dealing with someone who isn't making rational sense and is preprogrammed to blame you for it.
Take care, scout - stay strong
Hello scout
XH sure likes to stir the pot, doesn’t he?
You have made a fair offer of alternating each year with the same times as every other special day and holiday. He is just yanking your chain. Trying to get you to take the bait.
In negotiations there are times when you stand firm. To demonstrate that you serious and that compromise only goes so far. I think this may be one of those times.
XH, I’m sorry you feel that way. The agreement before you is fair. It alternates Christmas Day between us every year. The pick up time is 5:00pm; like every other exchange throughout the year.
That’s it. Acknowledge and validate him, and just reiterate the proposal.
Leave it hanging. No take it or leave it, nor anything else. There is plenty said and implied in such a short response.
As you said, XH knows you didn’t want to budge on Christmas. I think he is just seeing how far he can push. You need not push back, just be a solid rock. The proposal is fair. Be unmovable and see where it goes.
XH will roll it around in his mind. Reading and rereading it. The more times he tells himself the agreement, the more he moulds himself to it. It’s a fair proposal. There is little he can really fight against.
D