Hi MLC forum!
I am coming over here from the newcomer's forum as I could use some advice and help on how to conduct myself and react to H's perplexing behavior. I know that many people assume MLC when nothing else 'explains' a spouse's behavior, so I am open to the fact that it may or may not be a MLC. But, here is a little recap of my situation:
H and I are approaching 40 we have 4 kids and a business together that requires a lot of travel for H. He has always been slightly insecure and needs people's attention and affection to fill his self-worth (for those of you who follow attachment theory, he is anxiously attached and I am securely attached). H had a rough childhood with a father who told him he was never good enough and a mother who smothered him. They D'd when he was young and he was abandoned (sent to boarding school) at a very young age. We met and married in our mid-20's and had what the whole world thought was a fairytale relationship (me too). We were desperately in love, all of our children were planned and excitedly welcomed into our world, we were a great team.
In the past couple of years, our business has taken off and he has spent most of the past few years traveling while I held down the fort at home. His job is very stressful and about 18 months ago he had a near breakdown (if not a full-fledged one). Since then, things haven't been the same, but I chalked it all up to stress and tried to support him as best I could.
10 months ago I discovered he was having an EA (although highly likely it's a PA) with a married client whom he sees several times a year for work. I lost my mind and did everything wrong. At first he was desperate to please me and maintain what we had ('I love you, my goddess, you are my everything'), then he started vacillating ('I don't know what I want') and now it brings us to today ('I have never ever been happy and I want a D'). He moved out and we are navigating co-parenting our children while he has no work/travel due to Covid.
What I am struggling with most is that he has so much self-pity/pain/guilt/shame that he can't eclipse his own feelings. Although I am recognizing that I can't expect an apology or recognition for how his actions have hurt ME, I have been hoping that he attempts to put aside his own pain for the sake of the children. He takes everything they say and do personally, even construing things they say that have nothing to do with him to being all about him.
Is this part of the MLC process? I see so much of his childhood rearing out in this process (his dad was the same age as H when his dad did the same thing to my MIL). What is my role here? Let him go completely and give the kids a stable, emotionally normal base in my home? Any advice on how to deal with the spewing/blaming one minute and 'why can't we be friends??' the next?
Thank you for reading my story!
Sage
Welcome to the MLC Forum. I'm pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for this forum. Please take some time and visit the links.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Sage,
Sounds like he has all of the ingredients to have a MLC, i.e., childhood issues and his near breakdown has set him on his journey of reliving his past and trying to face those demons that have been stuffed within his soul for such a long time. He will become the mirror image of the man you once knew (exact opposite). Yes, you will see some teenage behavior along the way. Try to remember that this is about him and not you. Always remind yourself that you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. He has to do that himself.
Just as we talk about detachment on Newcomers, you will need to do so here as well. Give him plenty of space and time. Listen closely to what he says and eventually you will be able to sift through what he's saying and begin to get a good idea of where his head is at. They do love to talk if you just sit back and listen. Try not to challenge and/or argue w/him. Do not tell him what you think is wrong w/him.
His MLC will not end any time soon. It could take, 3 or more years and some of the folks experiencing do not come out of it. Some will come out of it just fine and others will retain some of the quirks that they developed during the crisis. Ultimately, you will be the one to decide if you want to stand and hopefully if he returns and wants to reconcile, then you can make that decision.
This is not a sprint, but marathon. Dig deeper for patience and know that we are walking the path w/you.
So dopey you’re here. Your H sounds a bit like mine. In my H’a case, he had one MLC and an affair when he was approaching 40. I DB’d him and we reconciled and actually had several more good years (but unbeknownst to me my kids were always waiting for the other shoe to drop). As he turned 50 it did drop as he went through another MLC and we did divorce. (He
(He just turned 60 and I wonder how it looks to his current wife??)
Anyway - focus on you and your kids and your life. He may or may not turn around. If he does, great - you’ve had a good time of renewal in the meantime. If he doesn’t - you’re that much closer to your new life.
The kids will test you, maybe even blame you, because you are the “safe” parent - they don’t dare say that stuff to him for fear of losing him. Stay strong and model how to move forward.
Oh - and this is an unpopular opinion, but one I feel is a moral issue.
You said OW was married. So does this mean her husband doesn’t know about the affair? I know that I would want to know if my spouse was having an affair. Unless you have reason to believe the guy is dangerous, he deserves to know his wife is cheating on him. He deserves to have agency to make key decisions for his own future based on the truth. It may or may not be a strategic decision ( it could break up their marriage, making her more available to your H, or she might try to save her marriage ). But I think it’s just human decency that he deserves to know.
(And you might want to inform him anonymously so that H can’t blame you for it. It’s a thorny issue and not always the best thing for your marriage but I would feel a duty to another cheated-on spouse).
Also I’m sorry about the joint business - this always makes things more complicated. Is this a business you can run without him? Would it be possible to buy him out if a divorce actually happened? Or would you be stuck working with your ex?
Most WASs are not in great shape to run a business and he might run it into the ground. Keep an eye on finances, credit reports etc.
Thank you so much for all these thoughts, KML!
I have to start here because I FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY:
I know that I would want to know if my spouse was having an affair. Unless you have reason to believe the guy is dangerous, he deserves to know his wife is cheating on him. He deserves to have agency to make key decisions for his own future based on the truth. It may or may not be a strategic decision ( it could break up their marriage, making her more available to your H, or she might try to save her marriage ). But I think it’s just human decency that he deserves to know.
I have been grappling with this issue for months now and it is tearing me apart from a moral standpoint. I would absolutely want to know if OW's H knew and I didn't; and in some ways it feels like I am holding a secret. I would be so grateful if he told me. They too have 4 kids and I am not sure of the state of their marriage, or if he even knows already. My desire to tell him has nothing to do with 'stopping' the EA or blowing things up (if it brings my H and OW closer, good luck to them, I wouldn't want to navigate a relationship built on lies that has 3000 miles and 8 kids between them-- neither can move locations). It has everything to do with not wanting another family to be blown up like mine has. I am still going to sit with this for a little while and make absolutely sure my intent
Regarding our business, H is the 'key man' and it is built upon his skillset. We are an equal property state and it was started in our M so he will have to buy me out when a D happens. I will also get alimony and child support. We have already negotiated that I am keeping the house (and I can afford it for the time being). <<< I love all your wise financial advice, BTW, KML. I have learned so much in what you have posted to Cardinal et al >>>>
Good Morning Sage
It does sound like your H fits the MLCer behaviour. There is no diagnostic tool that can give you an exact answer, however there are some hallmarks that MLC tends to have. Confusion, back and forth behaviour, reliving their past, and so on.
Your H certainly is confused. His periodic leaving and returning to you; at one point it was every 6 weeks if I recall. Is that still ongoing?
Confused and irrational behaviour from a spouse is pretty standard stuff on this board. H wanting and waiting to be invited to your upcoming birthday fits right in. You did tell him no, right?
Focus on you, is very important. You must continue to focus upon yourself while moving forward. A MLCer’s changing behaviour will drive you bonkers if you don’t detach.
MLCer’s come in three flavours or types. The vanisher, like my XW, they take off and you barely ever hear from them. The clinger, they just stick like static socks from the dryer. And the boomerang, like your H, I’m leaving, I’m back, repeat.
Usually they remain as one certain type.
The next thing is severity, speed, how hot they burn, how fast they run. High energy or wallow. Both still exhibit running behaviours. A MLCer who tends to the wallowing end of the spectrum may take longer to pull the trigger on something or seem to remain stuck in a behaviour. A high energy MLCer, like my XW, may jump quick at decisions to try to alleviate their torment. My XW, for example, dropped the bomb, dumped the kids, and moved in with OM - all after Thanksgiving supper. In two months we were legally separated. She is a bit rare, mind you.
The MLCer, no matter the type, is depressed. They have suffered some trauma, long before you ever new them. Back in childhood or teenage years, from a person in a position of authority. This trauma was far too much for them and they buried it. Emotions buried will haunt you, later.
Of course, you, and they, didn’t know about this long buried and forgotten trauma. Around midlife, as the pressures of mortality, work, family, and life build, this long ago pain remains silent no longer. It rises up within them. They have no idea what is happening to them. My XW, after BD, told me she thought she was going crazy. Their descent into darkness usually takes 18-24 months. An event triggers this deep stirring of unrecognized, unrealized, unaccounted for pain.
Their pain and torment is ceaseless. Their emotions are cranked to 11. They completely become the opposite of who they once were. With constant emotional pressure, destruction seems to the to be their only way out. They destroy their life and anyone and anything that gets in their way.
You, their loving spouse gets the blast. You see the MLCer cannot handle any more. They absolutely cannot. Their pain and torment, for their psyche, has to be from external, it cannot be from within. So they incorrectly conclude that the LBS must be the source of the utter unhappiness. And they will project, justify, argue, bait you into a fight, lie, manipulate, and anything else to ensure they feel right.
Give H time and space. And lots of it. Without reactions from you, H slowly realizes that you aren’t “bugging” him BUT he is still unhappy, and therefore you cannot be the cause. Hopefully he then looks inward.
MLC is an emotional train wreck. People in crisis are driven by emotions, irrational emotions. They will be but a few rational actions and decisions from H. There will be plenty of irrational and emotional ones. Emotions change quickly, as will H’s course.
Focus upon you.
MLC is horrible. I would not wish this upon anyone. These lost souls are truly suffering. Just imagine what it would take for a Mom to throw away her own children. They lose their empathy. They can’t handle their own feelings, never mind anyone else’s.
They run from their pain. They turn to all kinds of vices in futile attempts to dull the constant pressure and emotional torment. Affairs are staggeringly common. Wasteful spending, drugs, alcohol, high risk behaviours, etc. All to try to regain the youth they feel was lost.
Focus on you.
This is not a hopeless venture. It is a long one though. This is not a sprint, it is a marathon - pace yourself.
You have the gift of time, use it wisely and use it well.
Ask anything you like. There are many compassionate and caring people here with much hard earned wisdom.
You are not alone. You are among friends.
DnJ
Hello Sage
The matter of whether to tell OW’s H (and family) or not, is a thorny issue indeed.
Yes, morally it would seem that informing her H of her cheating ways would be the thing to do. Where and when does that end? How minor an issue before you ignore or overlook? And for who?
I think it depends upon if you know them. If OW and her H (and family) are completely unknown to you then do not involve yourself.
This is similar to why you don’t involve yourself or manipulate H’s path. He is in a journey and if you alter it, for good or bad, you take on responsibility for whatever future outcomes may transpire. And something always transpires. Our lives are all built upon the steps of our past.
OW and her family are also upon a journey. Yes, they may be headed for trouble. Or ruin. Or salvation. Do you want a hand in it?
If the person is known, a friend or family, you already have a hand in their life. Bring the affair to their attention.
Most times the OP is unknown and it is best to leave it be. Let their illicit relationship/affair run its course and burn out on its own. You don’t want them to feel “it is us against the world”, for it solidifies their relationship more. Fate usually is good at doing what is needed as it is needed.
I believe you already confronted H about his affair and told him you might spill the beans. He of course freaked, and panicked. I am sure OW and him have been on high alert listening and looking for signs.
I think, I’d let go of this idea of informing OW’s H. Leave this to fate. It will be uncovered when and how it will.
D
DnJ, you are such a wise soul and a blessing to this forum. My heart breaks for what your children and you have endured, but I think they are so fortunate to have such an amazing Dad and it sounds like they are thriving human beings despite their trauma. Your ability to eclipse your own trauma and spread love, wisdom and compassion across the world vis-a-vis this forum is an inspiration.
Thank you for responding to my thread. I have read so many of your posts and have learned so much from you already, even if not directly spoken to me.
Everything you wrote above resonates with me (H is a boomerang type and a wallower). A lot of what you wrote is new to me and gives me a much better perspective, so thank you. Although I know that one can't 'diagnose' an MLCer, learning, knowledge and information are the ingredients that help me to become the best version of myself, particularly in these challenging times.
I 100% agree that he needs the space to fix this on his own, I am only in the way and I want to give him that space for my own protection as much as his. I am relieved he has moved out if I am honest. I also need the time and space to figure out my own path to healing.
However I am struggling with how to behave with H. He wants to be friends (ie birthday party, hug me when he comes to drop the kids off, chit chat) but my line in the sand is that I am not friends with someone who treats me the way he does, and he knows the path back to 'friendship' but cannot do it. Which is totally fine, I accept that he is unable to behave like every other friend I have in my life. So I said no about the birthday party, danced my way out of the hug and have been trying to keep conversations short. But he is taking this as rejection and being cold to me, which I have mirrored (although he might argue that it is the other way around... either way we are mirroring each other's pain with rejection).
What do I do here? Should I be happy and upbeat and act as if I don't care? Fake it? Be friendly but firm?
And in regards to exposing the EA, I don't know these people beyond work (I haven't met EA in person but have had to communicate with her on the phone and email in the past). Most the wise people in my life have said to leave it alone. They are probably right and I feel like I can sit with it as long as I need to.
Hi Sage, all I can suggest is to act on principle, not emotion. Act in a way that allows you to sleep peacefully at night. If that means limiting contact, and H finds you cold and distant, then so be it. If civility is all you can manage, honour that instinct. Don't act some kind of way on his accord. Decide who you are, and act on your accord.
She is clothed in strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future. - Proverbs 31:25.
^This is you.
No matter what DB or any other marriage recovery program tells us, we cannot influence a spouse who is determined to leave us for someone else. Nothing you say or do matters any more. You could be freaking Beyonce and it would not make a lick of difference. A spouse in an active affair is on another planet. The OW is Beyonce x1000 in their eyes.
(Beyonce's husband cheated on her, btw, which says a lot about the nature of cheaters. Chump Lady is a great resource for learning more about this topic).
I vote for exposing the A as a general rule, not to be vindictive or prescriptive, but because it's the truth. If being truthful is one of your core principles, then the nagging feeling that you should tell OW's husband will never go away, because keeping the secret goes against your principles. I ran into a similar dilemma with my ex-ILs. I sat with the emotions for many months before I ended up writing them a letter about X's affair. It tanked our relationship but it was the right thing to do.
You must be okay with any possible outcome. That is the true test of acting on principle rather than emotion.
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
PS. you will probably find the MLC forum rather more philosophical than Newcomers, haha.
Hello Sage
Thank you for the kind words.
For how to behave with H, be cordial and kind. This advice is first and foremost for you, the most important person in your situation. And, as a bonus, it gives you the best chance at a future R.
If you consider your future. How you want to be. The person you want to become when all this is in the past. I suspect vindictive, vengeful, angry, hurt, sad, etc. are not the goals - so steer clear of those paths.
Set you goals high and lofty. Compassionate, empathetic, understanding, forgiving, accepting. Walk the path towards those. Be cordial and kind.
That does not mean to be a doormat and get all walked over and treated poorly. You have value and worth. Set boundaries on disrespectful behaviour towards you, and stick to them. Note, that is behaviour directed at you, not his behaviour in general.
He wants to be friends (ie birthday party, hug me when he comes to drop the kids off, chit chat) but my line in the sand is that I am not friends with someone who treats me the way he does, and he knows the path back to 'friendship' but cannot do it.
I have unequivocally stated that it’s me or a friendship with EA/OW.
For right now H cannot choose. Your line in the sand is a lot of pressure to him and his addled mind, and if pushed he will bolt. I would stop stating it. You have let him know your stance, and he has heard it. Remember the blow up when this topic was brought up during the latest mini-reconnect.
You don’t need to be friends with him. Just cordial and kind. Treat him like you do the cashier at the grocery store. Nice small talk and friendly. Steer clear of any R talks like as if they were the plague.
Remember he is in crisis. The OW is nothing more than a band-aid. A distraction. She is married for goodness sakes. She is not emotionally stable. You, my dear Sage, are the prize. Do not ever sell yourself short.
Their relationship is built upon lies and deceit. She is as mixed up, or worse, than H. These MLCers usually do find an affair partner that is emotionally worse than them. Someone for them to save. Their relationship’s foundation is like sand, it will crumble. Stay clear of it, you don’t want the responsibility for this outcome either. Let fate end it.
When H comes over for a hug - “no thanks”. And walk away. If he asks or pushes, then tell him. “You’re with OW, and I’m not plan B.”
Say nothing about friendship or his general behaviour. No blaming, or judging. Just your own view and stance. You are protecting yourself and at the same time being a safe place for him to land. That way it’s up to him. You are just focusing on yourself and living life.
But he is taking this as rejection and being cold to me, which I have mirrored (although he might argue that it is the other way around... either way we are mirroring each other's pain with rejection).
A few things.
Boundaries need to be stated, at least once. You’re with OW, and I’m not plan B - should let him know where you stand and that his behaviour garners a known reaction.
Let him take this how ever he does. If he feels rejected, so be it. Boundaries are for you.
The mirroring each other’s pain. You control you. Do not let his behaviour dictate your behaviour. Cordial and kind and go about your day.
D
Scout, thanks for the encouraging words, girl! I have to be honest and say that CL has been part of my push towards getting out of the shocked, deer-in-headlights, naive loving wife phase and into one where I recognize abuse (and cheating is abuse).
I think that even more than wanting to tell OW’s H about the affair, I want to tell my in-laws (who have no idea). It would likely blow up in my face, but I am struggling with the knowledge that he has told them I was the wicked wife of the west. Despite the fact that the majority of their time spent with our children was facilitated by me, traveling across the world alone with 4 little kids so they could make memories with the children. And also despite the fact that until several months ago they thought we had the best relationship of anyone in the family (and wrote cards and repeatedly told us so). I’m also not there yet, to disclose his indiscretions to his family. But there is a likelihood my friend tribe over there would do it for me, so I can just let that one ride for a bit.
And as weird as this sounds, I don’t think H is leaving me for the OW. I truly believe their relationship is based on fantasy and emotions and there is really no way they could make something work long-term without H giving up our kids, which at this point is all he has to prove that he is doing all of this for the ‘right reasons’. If he gives up the kids, his whole house of cards comes crashing down (it’s a very, very tiny house, mind you, maybe only a few cards as it is, FWIW).
I was thinking of you today as I navigated a challenging child-split conversation. I found myself F-ing FURIOUS that I had to ask so nicely to take the kids for a few extra hours on one of his days so that we can go on a mountain backpacking trip this week. It is the first of many to come, but the compromise made me so angry. My problem, and probably a result of everything being so fresh and new, but infuriating nonetheless.
Dnj, there are moments where wish I was in your shoes: the partner that walked and never looked back. I don’t wish that on my children, but I have for all intents and purposes raised them on my own anyway, so having to suddenly negotiate time with them feels extra harsh. (Realistically this will only last as long as Covid, so the hardest phase is right now).
Thanks all for the encouragement and wise words. This too will pass and I will be better and stronger soon enough.
Hello Sage
Dnj, there are moments where wish I was in your shoes: the partner that walked and never looked back. I don’t wish that on my children, but I have for all intents and purposes raised them on my own anyway, so having to suddenly negotiate time with them feels extra harsh.
I do understand the allure of the partner that walks away and never looks back.
I would never wish that upon anyone. So much hurt and pain was compressed into such a small timeframe. Yes, my situation was rather swift and not dragged out. Still, like all situations, a heavy toll was levied and paid.
I think the true allure is for the shoes I am currently standing in, not the ones I used to be in. Funny thing, I suppose they are the same shoes. It’s the destination. It’s the journey.
I never had to experience the harshness of politely negotiating with my spouse, so to spend time with my own kids. After BD, I had no further input or help from W regarding the children’s upbringing, schooling, dating, bra shopping, etc. Everything suddenly became my sole responsibility. Groceries, bills, cars, and so on. Discipline, reward, morals, values, birth control... it’s a long list when you’re hands are the only one’s holding it.
There’s never a break. Granted my children were teens and young adults. Not so much direct involvement required as younger children. However, this is quite a mess for a teen to find themselves within - a mom who doesn’t love or want them anymore. There are many many dark and dangerous roads for an adolescent to seek escape from such a painful slap across the face.
This was a challenging journey. Many open and difficult conversation with my children were had. Lots of questions asked, and surprisingly lots of questions actually answered. This is an incredible opportunity; one very few people even realize exists, never mind experience.
My wife’s leaving and not looking back, is just that. I was lost for a while. Scared and drowning in pain. And I walked out of that flaming wreckage.
We all start differently, and yet find ourselves upon a similar path. I know I’m not in your shoes, however I will walk with you, if you like.
In truth, when I started my journey, I wished for a more “normal” MLC spouse, and not one of such extreme. I had so wished she had remained living in the home. Lol.
We work on ourselves, and time does indeed heal. Perceptions do change.
I am truly happy. I have peace and joy and love.
Continue walking this most unwanted journey Sage. It’s ok, and quite normal, to have moments of wishing a different path. I did plenty of that.
Stay strong. You got this.
D
Hi Sage,
Thinking of you. Hoping you have an amazing backpacking trip. I know to some degree how you are feeling about negotiating the time with the kids... I am right now dealing with a ton of anger towards my H for making me even need to think about that as a real possibility. It sVcks.
That being said... it is what it is. You can only control what you can control and it isn't your H's actions that got you to this place. You are taking this awful situation and navigating it with such grace and class-- I'm continually blown away by how amazing you are. You deserve to be angry about what he has done... and you are acknowledging that and putting it to the side so that you can do the best you can for your kids. You're incredible... keep it up. And enjoy that time!! xoxo M
DnJ and May, thank you both so much for your encouraging words.
D, your words are so beautiful and impactful. I have a feeling that you were an amazing man before your wife left, but it certainly appears that this process has brought so much growth and learning opportunities for you. That is my prayer to the universe right now: if this hardship and heartbreak must happen to me, please open me up to all the lessons I have to learn and make me a better person as a result. Let something good come of all of this. Amen.
I swing wildly between wanting things to be different and clinging to hope, and letting go and getting on. I am reliving the trauma through my children's fear and sadness at the moment though, so that process of letting go (of the pain, suffering and heartbreak) is a wound that keeps getting salted. There have been some firsts in the past couple of weeks that are particularly poignant, so that doesn't help either. But I am trying to live each moment and move into a path of healing as best I can.
Unfortunately, things have gotten so untenable in my communication with H, I feel I need to go as NC as I possibly can. A simple conversation about basic un-heated topics turns into accusations of me being aggressive, controlling or manipulative. I don't use the right words, or in the right order, or my tone is not right. I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane. Is it common for an MLCer to have so much guilt, resentment and anger that they literally cannot even converse with their LBS without it adding to their laundry list of what a terrible person the LBS are? I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.
It is hard to not take that to heart. I want to be open to growth and learning opportunities in this process, I also want to validate and leave some space for us to be good in the future. But I can't control his narrative and that narrative is destroying my self-esteem and self-worth.
Man, this process is hard. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
Hi
Many a MLCer will try to make LBS react
they will use an argument or other ways to manipulate the truth so the LBS will react
This may prove to them they are doing the right thing by leaving and blaming the LBS for the issues instead of taking any responsibility for anything
NC is helpful or limiting contact and trying to not react
Knowing this is their strategy, they may totally believe it also that they are always right and you are controlling,.....or the problem
We have to have our own strategy to avoid the pit
stay calm and neutral
Could be something like
" Im sorry you feel that way"
"I hear what your saying"
"I cant talk right now" and leave the area
These responses may also anger the person who wants to fight but as we practice avoiding the pitfalls
we get better
KNOW it is nothing about you but its his stuff
The MLCer is not living in reality
They want to feel good and be happy but they do not realize that leaving the M will never fix their longstanding childhood issues, and MLC is about those unresolved issues not us
I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane.
Gaslighting. I used to write down each conversation immediately after it happened, then call a trusted friend or family member and repeat it back to them. Relaying it back word for word, and seeing the horrified reactions from those people, was the wake-up call I needed to see it for what it was. I also saw my psychologist every other week to get an impartial third party's perspective. I guarantee you are not doing anything objectionable. You're not going mad, I promise. You are being subjected to an insidious form of abuse driven by his desperate need to shift the blame and justify his betrayal. I'd strongly advise grey rocking him. NC is the way, the truth, and the light. Do not validate abuse.
Sage, I second Scout on this. He is gaslighting you and there is zero reason for you to listen or care.
I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.
It is hard to not take that to heart. I want to be open to growth and learning opportunities in this process, I also want to validate and leave some space for us to be good in the future. But I can't control his narrative and that narrative is destroying my self-esteem and self-worth.
Gently, I wonder... why do you care if deep down he wants to be friends and have an amicable split where you can spend time together as a family? Is this what you want? Especially with someone who is treating you the way he is? Maybe at some point in the future he will be the kind of human being you want to spend time with, again. But it sure doesn't sound like he is that person right now and I am just wondering why you want to subject yourself to it.
It seems to me that going NC/grey rock will not only protect you and give you the space and ability to heal-- and protect your own self-esteem and self-worth-- but also honestly protect the possibility of being friendly in the future. It seems like these toxic interactions could really poison your potential future amicable relationship. Can you move your necessary conversations to email?
(((SAGE)))
KNOW it is nothing about you but its his stuff
The MLCer is not living in reality
Peace, a lot of what you wrote resonated with me, but this is the take-home reminder I needed today. Thank you for that. It is not my stuff, it's his. I've got a heavy enough load as it is, I don't also need to carry his.
Gaslighting. I used to write down each conversation immediately after it happened, then call a trusted friend or family member and repeat it back to them. Relaying it back word for word, and seeing the horrified reactions from those people, was the wake-up call I needed to see it for what it was. I also saw my psychologist every other week to get an impartial third party's perspective. I guarantee you are not doing anything objectionable. You're not going mad, I promise. You are being subjected to an insidious form of abuse driven by his desperate need to shift the blame and justify his betrayal. I'd strongly advise grey rocking him. NC is the way, the truth, and the light. Do not validate abuse.
Scout, as usual, spot on reflection. I have been doing the same thing; sharing with trusted confidants who are horrified that a woman whom they consider to be strong and wise would subject herself to this for even a microsecond. And I know I am going to sound like the proverbial abuse victim who keeps explaining away an abuser's behavior, but here is what I truly believe: he is so out of his mind with this whole MLC (or maybe mental illness or sociopathic narcissism, I just read bttrfly's update on Cardinal's thread) that he truly is not intentionally gaslighting me. In his distorted reality he actually hears me screaming when I am whispering. He hears the negative when I am actually saying something positive.
And May, NO I DO NOT want to be friends with this person in front of me. He is the opposite of any human I would be naturally attracted to at this moment in time, neither as a friend or a lover. And he is certainly not acting as any member of my family would act (sperm donor? Might be the best label for him at the mo). I want him out of my space and out of my life right now. Grey rock. And you're right, these interactions are creating more toxicity and need to stop.
But the kids. It keeps coming back to what's best for the kids. And they are having their own issues with him, so it is doubly tough. Ugh ugh ugh. THIS IS SO HARD.
The kids. I know. I’m so, so sorry.
Just know— this is NOT YOUR FAULT. you did not do this nor do you deserve it. Nor do your kids. But there is only so much you can do— and keeping yourself strong and sane so you can be the best mom you can to them is your priority.
You got this, Sage. You are so perceptive and understanding I know it is hard to not have empathy for what your husband is going through right now. But you need to do what you need to do for yourself right now, for your children. Don’t let your kind heart allow you to enable him.
Xoxo M
Hi
Being totally available to the kids as the stable wise adult parent will help them
To be honest I don't see my kids too scarred from their MLC Dad
I made the shift at some point, off of Him to my kids
being there for them
I was cordial and kind to XH ..He visited when he wanted at first
rules came later
Not badmouthing Xh..mostly reasurring kids a lot --it will be ok
and it was nothing to do with them
Dad was going through something and we had to let him
especially my pre teen who needed more at that time of BD
Once the MLCer moves out, this becomes easier
their negative energy no longer invades the home
hang in there
Most important to take care of you now
H may get worse as he travels the tunnel
find ways to detach read about it, get support
keep posting
I was the child of an MLCer who had a personality disorder, I realize now. And then I married one. I thought I married the opposite of anyone like my family. And I know he was a much better man before MLC but now I don't know if that was an act too. I think he was battling his own demons and then couldn't do it anymore at MLC.
I just want to chime in because I see it a little differently, as a mom and as a child who went through it.
I don't badmouth my H but I don't lie about it either. I didn't tell them about the adultery until they asked, because H immediately brought OW around my kids and they lied so much to my D, and I could see that it was making her feel crazy herself, because she sensed something was wrong. I was vague but answered her questions truthfully, in an age-appropriate way. I had cancer in 2014 and my kids still don't know, so I definitely shield them from things that I don't think they need to know yet, but I think they do need to know enough about their dad to have strong boundaries. I know from experience that the MLC parent gaslights the kids too, and it confused me beyond imagining that no one validated to me that my mother was out of her mind. I internalized it and disassociated so much that I can barely remember anything about my childhood. And ultimately I think it led to my being so used to that kind of stuff that I didn't see it in men I dated, and the one I married. It felt normal. I thought that was how life was once you weren't dating anymore. And like I said, he was at least trying to be an ethical, moral man and a good father.
My son refuses to see his dad. My daugther sees him a lot and has this middle school romance sort of relationship with him but then will say things like this -- after having a lemonade stand and having a big pile of cash -- "It's good that he doesn't live here anymore, he would have stolen all this cash." Then she runs to her phone to call him and send him a million hearts.
My son went through h*ll, was suicidal, wouldn't go to school, shoplifting, etc. But now he is coming out of that and the trust I kept alive was everything. He is not confused, ever. He is rageful and has a broken heart but he is never confused. My daughter is confused constantly.
All of this is to say -- I would say not to act that breezy about their dad. Give no details but validate that what they see is happening. And be glad if your kids don't see too much of him while he is like this. They can grow mature enough to know who he is and have boundaries, or wait until he has come out of it a little and is a better person. Everyone says it's important to see your parents no matter what but I think it's more damaging to enter that dynamic and absorb that craziness than the damage caused by not seeing a parent for a little while. I'm glad my son chooses not to see his dad for now.
I couldn't heal from my mom til I cut off contact for a while, until I was clear-headed enough to have boundaries from her, and I was still pretty messed up around her until she died in 2017. I didn't start healing and seeing things clearly about my marriage until my H moved out. He wouldn't leave, even almost a year after he filed. I had to pay him to get him out. Worth every penny. Seeing the huge positive change in my son after his dad left only showed me that I had not done the right thing allowing things to go on for so long in front of him. My son still speaks to me in a verbally abusive way sometimes, just like he witnessed for years after BD. He feels awful after he treats me badly and says he has no control over his mind when he is angry. He was never like that before my H went crazy -- he was the most loving and happy child before all of this. And I was the LAST person to want to divorce or to stop standing. I still don't believe in divorce and am devoutly Christian, but I realize now that there is no contradiction with that when you have to get that dark abusive force away from your kids. It's standing for your family and it is a way to show love even to the abuser to stop enabling his abuse. You can love him from far away.
Gosh, ladies, way to make a woman feel validated and supported from all sides. Thank you, May, PT and Gerda. xx
I am resolute in being the best, most stable mama I can be right now. My younger two are doing just fine. For them it is kind of exciting to have so much attention from each parent (poor, poor last children in a big family; always grateful for the crumbs, so when they get the whole cake it is like hitting the jackpot!). The older two are having a rough go of it. When H & I are NC, I feel entirely able to pivot my attention from mourning H and my M, and onto the wellbeing of the kids. Thanks, PT, for that image. It is a good one to work towards.
And May, thanks for the reminder about enabling. I know that I am more emotionally evolved than H, and it has always been my 'duty' to use that in a way that creates the most good with the least harm. But I am failing to include the harm that it is causing me in that calculation. Enabling is a trigger word for me that I learned in IC, I am working so hard on not enabling H any longer and need constant reminders. (((May)))
Gerda, what a ride you have been on. Stronger than an ox, you are. I admire your stamina. I am desperate for any intuitive cues that I should keep standing for my M and be the gentle, validating, steady force in my MLCer's life. But it is so tough to take care of my own heart as well as 4 other little hearts. My son has the potential to take your son's path and I am grateful that H moved out so early in this process. I am attempting to be authentic with them (they see me cry, they know I am sad about my M), but I also am firm with them that they are not responsible for my emotions and don't need to take care of me and aren't responsible for 'fixing' it. I am not sure if I am doing this right, but my intentions are for them to see me being authentic and also know that it is my job to take care of them and not the other way around.
Kids are smart. And they are perceptive. Initially I divulged very little to them, but as I move forward with my healing, I realized that it would be important for them to know some age appropriate truths as well. I do not plan on playing cover up for my H. I made it clear to the children that I am not okay with H’s decisions and behavior. That is not what I seek in a husband, a father, or a man. But I also said to my eldest that he must also have some opinion about his father. Whatever it is, he gets to decide. I think it has been the best for them that my H moved out early on.
Hello Sage
...my prayer to the universe right now: if this hardship and heartbreak must happen to me, please open me up to all the lessons I have to learn and make me a better person as a result. Let something good come of all of this. Amen.
Well said.
Unfortunately, things have gotten so untenable in my communication with H, I feel I need to go as NC as I possibly can. A simple conversation about basic un-heated topics turns into accusations of me being aggressive, controlling or manipulative. I don't use the right words, or in the right order, or my tone is not right. I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane. Is it common for an MLCer to have so much guilt, resentment and anger that they literally cannot even converse with their LBS without it adding to their laundry list of what a terrible person the LBS are?
Yes, the projections upon us, the LBS, to paint us as a terrible person is pretty common. And as you are finding out, MLCer projections are rather irrational and not based in fact.
Going no contact is for you. It is for your healing. To stop hearing those hurtful accusations and the gaslighting of you. To allow you time to find your balance and regain your footing.
I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.
H is conflicted and confused.
How can someone want to be friends and spilt amicably; and still construct a narrative in which you are a wicked person. It’s confusing. Yet, this is the battle raging within his mind. He needs time and space.
I know how much of a hit that false narrative is against one’s self worth. Time and space, helps you too.
D
Sage - just wanted to drop by to say how much your thread is helping me and how well you’re doing handling the situation with yourself and the kids!!
The gaslighting is the biggest take away for me right now. As dnj pointed out, it can definitely takes a toll against one’s self worth if you let it. Part of me feels like my H just got worse (In the sense of looking for reasons to explode and exuding negativity) the more I started to go no contact....does that even make sense?
When dnj and others say “H is conflicted and confused right now” I do see that and agree...but the mind is strange in how it processes things. It takes so long to come to terms with something when it doesn’t make sense and his behaviour and words don’t match.
I also relate to how you feel about the in-laws. I want to scream from the mountain top all the things H is doing because I know he’s painted me as the bad person...Somehow I’ve shown restraint.
Keep doing well Sage especially with your busy plate with the 4 wee ones!
(((Sage)))
Hi Kindly, thank you for your kind words of solidarity. I have an experience to share that may be helpful to you in yours.
After this last bout of particularly bad spewing, I spoke to my IC about how to deal with it and she had some really wise words. H broke up with me. And when he did, he relinquished his membership to the 'club' of trusted advisors (family, friends', bosses etc) that are allowed to share their opinion of my personality or behaviour; past or present. It's so simple, but it really struck me. And let's just take this further: your boss fires you, but then continues to call and harass you about what an awful employee you were, how terribly you acted at work, what a worthless waste of time you were. I think we could be in agreement we would probably call the police, right? I mean, what gives that boss the right to do that?
And yet, the LBS is encouraged to listen carefully to the MLCer's words; validate, find truth in it and change as appropriate. Which combined with our hope for the M, may leave us vulnerable to not being strong enough to turn the tap off when it should be.
Another helpful tidbit that I learned in that session (and have heard repeatedly since in a short period of time, so the universe is really speaking here): mentally ill people need REALLY clear boundaries. IC helped me choreograph some boundaries surrounding the spewing which I (unsurprisingly) had an opportunity to execute the following day. And it worked. I was very focussed on the true definition of a boundary and was very careful to make sure that the boundary was MINE and not about controlling him. And although there have been moments since when I knew H wanted to spew at me, he seemed to hold it in. And I finally feel safe. Which allows me to be more compassionate, because I am no longer scared of him.
When I was going through my divorce 11 years ago, I still had a flip phone. If Ex started spewing at me on the phone, I just snapped that thing shut. If he called back, I’d say “oh, sorry, I must have driven through a cellphone hole”. It was SO satisfying to clap that phone shut on him mid-sentence! Eventually I trained him to only communicate with me by email.
But I still remember that moment when I realized “Wait! He’s divorcing next, so I don’t have to listen to this anymore!”
Good Morning Sage
An interesting analogy - the boss.
MLCers do tend to, at times, feel that they are finally taking control, and have everything all figured out. They exude such smug confidence and arrogant assuredness; like that terrible boss. And yes, we are fired.
Unlike mere employment, this was a marriage. And this is about busting divorce. Still, big bad boss spouse, doesn’t get to treat their LBS like trash. People treat us as we allow them too.
And yet, the LBS is encouraged to listen carefully to the MLCer's words; validate, find truth in it and change as appropriate. Which combined with our hope for the M, may leave us vulnerable to not being strong enough to turn the tap off when it should be.
We are encouraged to focus upon ourselves. Go dim or dark, to allow time to heal. Listen to the MLCer, for they do tend to drop clues. And some of their irrational outbursts do have a grain of truth to them.
We do validate the MLCer, for their point of view is valid. Understanding that their truth and our’s are not the same.
The LBS reflects and searches within. Discovering their beliefs and convictions. Strengthen those they like and discards or alters those they don’t. And live and stand to those beliefs.
Through this inner work and difficult path, the LBS finds an inner strength and faith that is quite surprising. And one can be strong and vulnerable. Indifferent and compassionate.
We learn this is a marathon, not a sprint. We have such a gift of time, it is good to use it wisely.
I was very focussed on the true definition of a boundary and was very careful to make sure that the boundary was MINE and not about controlling him.
Excellent!
Boundaries are not about control, they are for you.
The terrible boss who continues to berate, we could yell back, fight back, for we have been fired and have nothing really to loose. However, fighting begets fighting; and this was not mere employment. And we do have something to loose - ourselves.
Nothing you do will affect your H’s MLC, and yet everything you do will.
Clear solid boundaries upon disrespectful behaviour. For you. Set with compassion and understanding. Unlike that boss, H is your children’s father, and will be involved in their and your lives for a long time.
I completely agree, and believe, MLC is a mental/emotional illness. Hopefully it is temporary and they can find their way back.
It is wonderful to read how you are not so scared of H, and tend towards compassion.
D
Thanks KML and DnJ for your words.
The boundary I created seems to be working: H has not spewed at me once since I stated that I would no longer listen to it. In fact, he has been trying to be kind and gentle in his communication with me lately, which I am grateful for, although I can't trust him yet.
Setting that successful boundary has empowered me to acknowledge where I might need other boundaries in my life, either with him or my children. When one of my more vocal children started to throw a fit and spew at me, I calmly stopped them and said in a very even tone 'from here on out, NO ONE is allowed to treat me disrespectfully and say rude things to me. Not your father, not you or your siblings, no one. In this family, moving forward we are going to treat each other with respect. It's OK to get angry and have big feelings, but we are not going to blame others for those feelings and I am going to help you with that.' The child stopped short and really listened with a look of respect in their eyes.
I have since had that conversation with another one of my children. They have responded really well and I am realizing how long my children have watched me emotionally bend and enable in my MR and how that has impacted them. I thought my enabling and emotional gymnastics was my duty to my family; I had so much psycho-emotional energy to give, I thought I was being the 'bigger' person. But now I am slowly recognizing how destructive that behavior was. The children saw me as strong, but yet I would yield to behavior from H (and to a lessor degree from them) that I was instructing them not to accept from, nor give to, others outside of our family.
Previously, I thought that carrying everyone else's emotional burden (and outbursts) was me being compassionate and understanding. But this period of my life is teaching me that having boundaries IS compassionate. I am fortunate to have 4 little mirrors in my life that are helping to teach me this. And in many ways, I am fortunate that H has done what he has done when they are still little and malleable. I have so much time until they are truly 'cooked'; so much time to learn, shift my own behavior and model for them a life of strength AND compassion.
And although I am able to reflect on lessons such as this, I am still struggling with my grief and sadness. I don't want H back in the shape he is in at the moment, but I am still dealing with the rejection, the hurt, and the pain of it all. While covid homeschooling a pack of kids and trying to rebuild my life.
HI
You sound very strong and I agree with you
Your kids will adjust and learn the new rules and norm quickly
Now its about staying the course especially when H acts out
I used to tell my kids if they did one put down with me or each other
They had to now do 3 put ups to create respect and looking for the best in each other
and allowing bif feeling without shame or blame--
really good stuff!
Sage, I relate to a lot of this. I've felt responsible for H's angry outbursts or moods for a long time, I've realized this past year. Of course, he felt I was responsible too, which reinforced my thinking. I wish I would have been in IC to learn more about boundaries sooner—it probably wouldn't have helped change the outcome of the M (I can see how H was pretty much always on this path of non-communication, shoving feelings down, and blaming others for his unhappiness), but it would have helped me! Paradoxically, I think H was also really bad with boundaries and always taking care of other people's feelings at the expense of recognizing or expressing his own--his solution now is to not care about anyone else. Anyway, I'm still working on this. Understanding boundaries is one thing, and learning how to live them is another.
Another helpful tidbit that I learned in that session (and have heard repeatedly since in a short period of time, so the universe is really speaking here): mentally ill people need REALLY clear boundaries. IC helped me choreograph some boundaries surrounding the spewing which I (unsurprisingly) had an opportunity to execute the following day. And it worked.
Was this you pretty much saying, "H, I will not listen to you attack me" during the last spewing?
And although I am able to reflect on lessons such as this, I am still struggling with my grief and sadness. I don't want H back in the shape he is in at the moment, but I am still dealing with the rejection, the hurt, and the pain of it all. While covid homeschooling a pack of kids and trying to rebuild my life.
((Sage)) Yes, the grief and sadness, the rejection and hurt... all of that coexists with rebuilding. As my focus has started to shift away from H and to my own plans for the future, I am sometimes taken aback by the moments the grief and hurt and all of that comes flooding in again. You're doing great, and you're modeling your growth and compassion and strength for your children as well.
I need some MLC advice.
The other day, H and I had to have a talk about one of our children having a really tough time with the transition and how we could coparent through our child's emotions. I felt calm and non-judgmental in our conversation, and although there were a lot of triggers in that conversation for both of us, neither of us took the bait, nor did we twist the knife. For the first time, I thought that maybe, just maybe, we might be able to amicably coparent. H had a moment in the conversation where he started crying about the situation, and I saw a glimmer of him recognizing how hard this is on all of us. Previously, all of his words and reactions felt very self-centered, as if his feelings were bigger and more important that any of ours. So this was new.
When H came over later to collect the children for the night, we continued the conversation. I had mentioned in our phone convo that I was hoping to shorten the kid exchange transition times (they have been taking 45 mins from his pick up arrival to their departure). He asked me if that was because I couldn't stand being around him? I said no, it was because I had plans and also needed that extra time to get some things done. So he kept saying, 'I am going to get out of your hair, sorry that I am still here, etc'. But I shrugged it off and said that talking about our child was more important than whatever plans I had.
In the middle of a mundane conversation about the location of something irrelevant, H stopped, looked at me and apologized for all the horrible things he has said about and to me. And told me that not one of them were true. That I was amazing, loving, kind and a really wonderful mother, woman and human. He then hugged me, and I said thank you. And then we transitioned into something else.
I held it together for the rest of our visit, which was pleasant and had some easy banter. Then I got in my car to run some errands and sobbed and sobbed. I know that someone shouldn't have so much power over me, but this is the first time in about 10 months that I haven't questioned my sanity. I have spent so long hearing about the 'terrible, manipulative, controlling, psychologically abusive, awful' person that I was, that I had come to believe that maybe all those things were true.
And with the apology, came this flood of relief. That maybe I am not to blame for all of this and I am not a horrible person after all.
Of course, the following day, it was back to shark-eyed H. Although he has maintained the pleasantness. For the time being, anyway.
Is this normal MLC behavior? My gut tells me he needed to say it to relieve his own guilt, more than assuage my esteem.
Good Morning Sage
Yes, there are glimpses of the person they once were. At times, seemly fully aware of where they are, and what they’ve done. And the darkness then drags them down, and it’s back to the shark-eyed crisis person.
You have seen this incredible shift of personality. H is still inside, a lost soul. His younger tormented self, is in control - running, blaming, projecting - in a futile attempt to feel better. That person needs to grow up and learn happiness comes from within.
These shifts, these moments of somewhat clarity for them, usually happen when they are calm and unable to distract themselves with their vices and running behaviours; like laying in bed in the still dark of night unable to sleep as the demons of regret and guilt play. One can see just how depressing that would be. Depression is a huge component of MLC, it’s is always present.
His path is still about him, as is his apology. It is more an attempt to relieve his guilt than assuage your feelings. Of course apologies do both, and he most likely realized and even meant, both.
That flood of relief. It felt good. Remember it. Reinforce it.
You have seen that shift. You know. You’ve seen. You’ve felt. Now what do you believe?
Beliefs are deep and slow changing. Strengthen this belief.
You did great during all of this interaction. Non-judgemental, calm, and no twisting the knife. That is so very much for you. Hold your head high, you are living within the light and grace. This also allows H to realize you are not the source of his pain and problems; something he saw and briefly displayed.
How can one not have compassion for such a lost soul? You know, and believe, the depth of his torment. Imagine what it must take to feel that destroying one’s life and family is the only way out. Desperation drive people to desperate actions.
I know the narrative that play(ed) within your head, making you question your own sanity. I think you will “hear” his words and not “listen” to them quite as much. You have a better and truer narrative hopefully playing.
It is really wonderful when the fog clears some more and we see better. You are compassionate and displayed good control of indifference (holding it together until alone in the car).
You are doing very well Sage.
D
Wow, Sage. You handled that all so, so perfectly.
I hope you can continue to discard his narrative. You ARE an incredible human being and mother. Empathetic, optimistic, brilliant, supportive, kind... just for starters. It actually fills me with a deep anger to think that at some level you started to question those truths and believe his narrative about the control/manipulation/emotional abuse. I know it is crazy-making to see someone you love totally go haywire and rewrite your shared story. But please, please don't let it get to you.
(((SAGE)))
I am back in a really sad place right now and could use some guidance.
We had a child's birthday recently and celebrated the day with H and some of my family members. It was a wonderful birthday for our child, but it was so, so so hard on me and took days to me to recover emotionally. My family also left the event so sad, H was a man they loved and trusted as a best friend and he is so different, they couldn't recognize him. It was hard. He also said some sexually inappropriate things about other women, which hurt me so much. Not to mention that he said these things in front of my family like it was some bar talk between guys. Gross.
I know that H really loves the children. He is trying really hard for their sake. Which I am grateful for, but also makes me angry in some sense, because I would have given my right arm for him to be a more plugged-in parent during the past 10 years. If he had, I don't believe we would be in the situation we are in right now.
My anger is spilling over right now (PLC, is it the moon?). I don't feel compassionate or loving. I am angry and have no patience for him. I want to be as far away from him as possible. I don't want to see his face, I don't want to be reminded of my pain and confusion, I don't want to have to suppress my feelings or walk on eggshells just because he is in my space. I don't want to uncover his secrets and lies (vis-a-vis the children, whom he seems to think are still innocent toddlers unable to read a room)
I want to heal. But gosh, it is so hard right now.
1) All suffering comes from desire. With his brief moment of clarity the other day, you might have gotten your hopes up a bit about this event then his behavior dashed those hopes. Try to have ZERO expectations of him.
2) You are not obligated to include him in any further events like this. He wants to go off, let him experience what the reality of divorce will be like - separate birthdays, separate holidays. Let the reality of his choices slap him in the face now. Don't make it easy on him. So long as he behaves inappropriately, he doesn't deserve to be around your extended family. Don't allow the disrespect.
1) All suffering comes from desire. With his brief moment of clarity the other day, you might have gotten your hopes up a bit about this event then his behavior dashed those hopes. Try to have ZERO expectations of him.
2) You are not obligated to include him in any further events like this. He wants to go off, let him experience what the reality of divorce will be like - separate birthdays, separate holidays. Let the reality of his choices slap him in the face now. Don't make it easy on him. So long as he behaves inappropriately, he doesn't deserve to be around your extended family. Don't allow the disrespect.
KML, thank you for your wise words. I really didn't take the apology as a set back for my expectations. Unfortunately, H has boomeranged on me so many times that I know what to expect now (expect nothing).
It was the prolonged exposure that did me in. To see the H in physical form that is emotionally gone.
My Dad has been saying for months: what's best for mama, is best for the kids. And this recent birthday made me finally understand it. That it is not in my kids' best interest for me to be emotionally devastated for days, even if I am being discreet. That he chose to leave because it was 'best for him and therefore best for the kids'. So why can't I show the same boundary? And to be honest, he has missed many, many, many birthdays over the years (including a birth) for the sake of his career, so it is not like the kids have a huge expectation of his presence anyway. Thank you for the additional reminder that it is OK to do what is best for me.
Hi Sage,
It sounds like this was a $hitty lesson to learn, but also terrific that you were able to parse through what happened, why it wasn't OK, and take from it the ability to set stronger boundaries the next time around. it sounds like he was being a real @ss too... but maybe that is a blessing in disguise, since it probably helped to underscore just how much he's changed and makes it easier. It probably would have been more difficult if he was loving and attentive and then still walked out the door and didn't look back at the end of the evening.
I was just reflecting as i read this, though, about your H missing so many birthdays and even a birth!! holy cow!! and yet gets to swan in for a family birthday party after deserting his wife and children and thinks he should get gold stickers for what a great dad he is for being there. It is just gross, honestly. It is a privilege to be in your presence and one he hasn't earned.
It's nice over here in MLC, btw.
xx M
Good Morning Sage
Your H’s bar talk comments reminded me of my XW’s talk, before she went all silent. She told and flaunted her affair before me, the kids, friends, the town. During one of her morning visits, she actually she told me and son that she just had sex with OM 30 minutes ago, so that takes care of the aldutry so we can now get a quick divorce. Sheesh.
These MLCers are entitled teens trying to be all confident, brash, bold, and so smug. Yes, there is a lot of sexual innuendo, or outright depictions of their escapades, they like to throw around. Quite a display of immaturity and insecurity when you really look and think about it.
Still, no one really want that around. Especially with children in the room. Of course, crisis people have broken empathy chips, and cannot see things from other people’s perspectives. They do what they feel; consequences, faith, karma will provide the lessons for them to grow up. It takes time.
It is ok to be angry. You need to walk through this part of the journey for as long as it takes. Anger is healing, it leads to better things.
...I don't want to have to suppress my feelings or walk on eggshells just because he is in my space.
You don’t need to suppress your feelings. They are your’s, it’s ok to feel then. Don’t become consumed by them is all.
You do need to feel the anger to release it. Find a good safe healthy way; punching bag, digging the garden, yard work, running, gym, etc.; something to sweat it out of you.
You don’t want to walk on eggshells, and you don’t want to lash out (well you do feel like you want too
). The suggested path is too let the anger out in a controlled manner. You do control you, after all.
Kind and cordial is not an act. And neither is compassionate. However, they are temporarily emotionally usurped due to feelings of anger. Feelings are fleeting. Anger is temporary. Feel it, let it wash over you. Look to your values and beliefs, for it is here that compassion lives.
I want to heal. But gosh, it is so hard right now.
(((Sage)))
You are healing. This is a very good step towards whole and healed. This is counterintuitive; at times the correct path will feel wrong. Have faith, you are on a good path.
D
Hi May! Yes, it is nice over here. Philosophical. Less judgement. More gentle approach. The insanity of a MLCer really brings out the long term wisdom and sanity of the LBS, so I am grateful to be among these wise people.
I was just reflecting as i read this, though, about your H missing so many birthdays and even a birth!! holy cow!! and yet gets to swan in for a family birthday party after deserting his wife and children and thinks he should get gold stickers for what a great dad he is for being there. It is just gross, honestly. It is a privilege to be in your presence and one he hasn't earned.
You have highlighted an example of my continued enabling. I knew going into the situation that it likely would end up making me feel the way it did, but I thought that he deserved to treated like he was normal, like he was a good dad. But that is not my job anymore. I don't need to make a soft place for him to land right now. He doesn't want to land anywhere, he just wants to stop, get what he needs to feel like father of the year so he can alleviate some of that guilt and shame. But at the expense of a piece of my soul. So nope, no more.
Your H’s bar talk comments reminded me of my XW’s talk, before she went all silent. She told and flaunted her affair before me, the kids, friends, the town. During one of her morning visits, she actually she told me and son that she just had sex with OM 30 minutes ago, so that takes care of the aldutry so we can now get a quick divorce. Sheesh.
I completely forgot about that happening in your sitch, D. How utterly awful. In front of your son, no less. Gross. You are an absolute saint for listening to that and still being the human that you are. ((D))
These MLCers are entitled teens trying to be all confident, brash, bold, and so smug. Yes, there is a lot of sexual innuendo, or outright depictions of their escapades, they like to throw around. Quite a display of immaturity and insecurity when you really look and think about it.
Still, no one really want that around. Especially with children in the room. Of course, crisis people have broken empathy chips, and cannot see things from other people’s perspectives. They do what they feel; consequences, faith, karma will provide the lessons for them to grow up. It takes time.
I wondered after I heard that comment H made 'has he always been like this? Or even worse, is this the real him and I encouraged a more evolved version of him over the course of our M, one that was not authentic to him?'
Let him live with his choices right now. Step aside.
You don’t need to suppress your feelings. They are your’s, it’s ok to feel then. Don’t become consumed by them is all.
I have been working on this so hard. I have been sleeping on my feelings and re-assessing them in the morning which has been a super helpful practice. There was a book that I read as a teenager called Tuesdays with Morrie about a dying man's perspective on life. And something that book taught me that I have carried with me ever since: feel it, and move on.
Kind and cordial is not an act. And neither is compassionate.
My mantra for the day. Thank you D!
Good Morning Sage
I have been sleeping on my feelings and re-assessing them in the morning which has been a super helpful practice.
That is an excellent practice!
It’s surprising how much gets sorted out in our slumber.
How is your yard, city, routine going as fall approaches? Myself, I have too many things that should get done before the snow. Hopefully, the weather stays nice into November. It usually doesn’t though. I best plan to the norm, I suppose.
Have a wonderful day.
D
Hi Sage, thank you Sooo much for the boss analogy...it has been a huge help in reframing my mindset for how I want and deserve to be treated.
I’ve been quietly reading along as many of our posts are intermingled and the advice given to one often helps many.
(As you said...) Seeing H in physical form when he’s not himself mentally or emotionally has been very tough on me this week too. I try to follow Dnj’s advice of allowing feelings to wash over me, but it’s the never ending questions and analysis of the situation that is allowing the feelings to flare up every so often. Do you find yourself trying to “make sense of it” still, find some kind of answers?
I wondered after I heard that comment H made 'has he always been like this? Or even worse, is this the real him and I encouraged a more evolved version of him over the course of our M, one that was not authentic to him?'
This too. This is a reoccurring thought for me, but I talk myself down by thinking it and then letting it go as best I can. Even IF this was true ...what is there to do about it now? I guess if we exhibited controlling behaviour we could learn from that. But wow, that makes me think what kind of power, and mind control we must contain to be able to influence, change and control someone’s authentic self! ....is it even possible???
You are doing well (((Sage)))!
D, what a lovely way to reframe and readjust our mental state: think about the natural world, our surroundings and tuning in to the comfort of the cycles of our seasons.
The wildfire smoke that blew in from other areas has finally left our region and this morning it is rainy and fall-like outside. The children came inside from their first real outdoor escapade since the smoke with an armload of fall leaves in the most beautiful hues. We will make a garland out of the most beautiful ones to decorate the windows, as we do each year. Today's plans include tea with friends, picking up windfall apples and making applesauce and going for a walk in the woods. I love fall.
Do you find yourself trying to “make sense of it” still, find some kind of answers?
Oh Kindly, yes I do, all the time. Once I stop trying to understand and make sense of it all, then I will know I have truly moved on. When my phone browser is filled with open pages of recipes, kids' activities and my usual psycho-spiritual explorations instead of search results for 'MLC husband' and mental conditions, then I will KNOW I have well and truly dropped the rope. But I am not there yet. I am not sure it is doing me any good (see my journal notes below), but my rational mind needs some threads to cling on to remind me that it is not my fault.
But wow, that makes me think what kind of power, and mind control we must contain to be able to influence, change and control someone’s authentic self! ....is it even possible??
Kindly, thank you for this reminder this morning. You are absolutely right. And this comment of yours leads back into the framework of it being about them and not about us. Because I do not believe that we are capable of that level of mind control (how scary if we were!). And who would want that power anyway? That would be a very lopsided and awkward relationship and I doubt I would be attracted to someone who let me control them so much.
Journaling...
This week was a hard one. It began with how long it took me to emotionally recover from the birthday visit with H. I got my strength back and then we had to interact for a homeschooling situation where I was really let down by H (he promised availability a long time ago for a critical transition, but then during the event he got distracted by work without telling me and spewed at me when I asked him to please, please help me like he said he would).
Then my eldest brought up how they know H has a secret, that H talks to a woman late at night and it makes them really uncomfortable and it is one of the reasons they don't want to go to H's house. I wrote H a long email about all of this, didn't send it, but woke up the next morning needing some discussion around it all. So I asked H if we could talk and it started about our child, but ended up about us.
He told me he is not obligated to share anything about his love life (he's right), but I ended up asking him for the truth so I could have some clarity and closure. He refused that too and told me that he is not in charge of my closure or moving on (also correct). However, I got the answers I needed: he has a love life to hide; and he has directly given me permission to create a boundary so I can find closure and move on (which for me is going to be NC, no hanging out at my home, no shared family events for the time being). Sad for me that I needed his permission for this. Something to work on from here on forward.
In our conversation, H mentioned that I had left some old journals 'laying around open' and he read one from 21 years ago when I was a teenager exploring my feelings for a BF at the time. H used this as evidence that I never really loved him because I told him I only ever felt that way about him. So I must have been lying and not loved him all these years. He also found a more recent journal 'open' and this was an exercise given to me by a healer about putting energy and intention into your future self when you are wallowing in your present pain. So I wrote about the things I wanted in a R. This also was used as an example of how I must not really have ever loved him.
Our journey started roughly a year ago and the reasons H is leaving our M have morphed over this time:
I had too many downfalls (heavy stepping being one of them, KML) > we never had a spark > I was miserable for the past year > wait! I was miserable our entire relationship > we just don't click > you made me feel so much guilt about leaving the family for work > you are manipulative, abusive, controlling and always have been > actually, this is because YOU never loved ME!
Of course, there is a lot in-between, and then the randomly sprinkled reconciliation attempts were also in there, when the slate would be wiped clean for a moment.
But help me, wise ones, as I ponder this from the MLC perspective: is the arc of his narrative reflective of his inner turmoil, or is he truly trying to get me to be the one to leave him and keeps taking stabs at whatever he thinks may work? I will stand for the former, but would likely give him want he wants if it's the latter.
xx
Hello Sage
Garland crafted from the best coloured leaves strung from the widows sounds lovely. Fall is a beautiful time of year.
Then my eldest brought up how they know H has a secret, that H talks to a woman late at night and it makes them really uncomfortable and it is one of the reasons they don't want to go to H's house.
Take away the power of the secret.
Thank your eldest for letting you know how Dad’s late night talking to another woman makes them (not just him) feel uncomfortable. Let them know it is now not a secret between us - you and them. They can ask or say whatever they need to about it, to you. You all know, so it’s not a secret here.
It looses its power this way. The kids are free from this draining feeling.
He told me he is not obligated to share anything about his love life (he's right), but I ended up asking him for the truth so I could have some clarity and closure. He refused that too and told me that he is not in charge of my closure or moving on (also correct).
Of course H clammed up and wouldn’t admit his fling or state the facts; the “truth” is different depending upon viewpoint.
However, I got the answers I needed: he has a love life to hide; and he has directly given me permission to create a boundary so I can find closure and move on (which for me is going to be NC, no hanging out at my home, no shared family events for the time being). Sad for me that I needed his permission for this. Something to work on from here on forward.
I see this interaction differently. You sought, and gave opportunity for H to be open and honest. Of course you received the non-answer behaviour you suspected (expected ?) you would.
You did not get permission from H with this interaction. You got permission from you. Permission to move forward and let go. It was never his permission you were seeking - it was your’s.
You have given yourself permission to create those healthy boundaries and move forward (not move on, not yet, dig deeper, I know you got more within you). Go NC, no hanging out at your home, and such, just like you said.
You are not sitting around being Plan B. Let him go and let him feel the loss of you.
Sorry about H reading you private journals. His “interpretation” is crafted to further his justifications. It is projection of his past pain upon you, for he cannot face it upon himself. Oh, a person in crisis is such a mess.
But help me, wise ones, as I ponder this from the MLC perspective: is the arc of his narrative reflective of his inner turmoil, or is he truly trying to get me to be the one to leave him and keeps taking stabs at whatever he thinks may work? I will stand for the former, but would likely give him want he wants if it's the latter.
A few thoughts:
Why is your stand contingent upon what H feels? His feelings flit and reinforce quickly; they are cranked to 11. It is never a good idea to make decision based upon your feelings, it is way worse to base them upon his.
Why do you see this as either/or? Why do you see these as separate? Both are true and both are false. His feelings change constantly. Look to your beliefs for guidance, not H.
Yes, H is trying to get you to do the heavy lifting. To take the bait and get mad. He will push your buttons, hoping you will do what he “feels” will make him feel better but he cannot yet do from guilt or shame or whatever. The less pressure from you, the more time for him to reflect and hopefully work through “his” issues.
His issues and all the talking shots at you are from his inner turmoil and his unrealized past and it’s affect upon him. It’s MLC. It’s a messy process. It’s a destructive process.
Let go and seek your beliefs. Strengthen and craft those you want and admire, and alter or discard those you don’t.
Stand for you!
Do not “give him what he wants”. You look to yourself and do what you believe. And you take the time to ensure your beliefs are one’s worthy of you. Worthy of the awesome women you are, and the version you will become.
You’ve got plenty of time; it is a gift, use it well.
D
A fellow heavy walker! Lolol.
Looking at his list, I’m gonna bet you five dollars right now that he has had an OW from the start of this.
He’s just trying to justify his behavior by turning you into the cause. Trust me, neither your heavy walking or your teenage boyfriend are responsible for his affair.
He doesn’t get to have the illusion of you waiting around as plan B. He doesn’t get to inhabit your home and his separate life. Set those good boundaries and treat him as you would if you were divorced - he needs to see that future.
I see this interaction differently. You sought, and gave opportunity for H to be open and honest. Of course you received the non-answer behaviour you suspected (expected ?) you would.
Yes, this is right. I even said to him: this is your opportunity to come clean and not live a lie any longer! Wouldn't that feel better than what we are living right now? There are so many lies, mistrust and roadblocks between us that it is making co-parenting really challenging. Don't you also want to join me in clearing the path to being more amicable coparents?
But I also know that admission to another woman brings his whole house of cards tumbling down. He is no better than his father, whom he doesn't aspire to. It means that all the things he has told me about the reasons he is leaving don't hold water any longer. That to our large community and family he is the f*** up who left an amazing wife and four kids in pursuit of his selfishness. He cares too much what other people think-- he couldn't live this one down. The close friends who know that he has had an EA, he no longer talks to. And I would bet a million dollars that he has told no one about his dalliance.
You did not get permission from H with this interaction. You got permission from you. Permission to move forward and let go. It was never his permission you were seeking - it was your’s.
This made me cry. You are so right, D. It was, and always has been, my own permission I was seeking. But spending so long in the slog of 'what can I do to fix this? How can I better myself and not rock the boat?' has allowed me to dismantle my own knowing.
A few thoughts:
Why is your stand contingent upon what H feels? His feelings flit and reinforce quickly; they are cranked to 11. It is never a good idea to make decision based upon your feelings, it is way worse to base them upon his.
Why do you see this as either/or? Why do you see these as separate? Both are true and both are false. His feelings change constantly. Look to your beliefs for guidance, not H.
Yes, H is trying to get you to do the heavy lifting. To take the bait and get mad. He will push your buttons, hoping you will do what he “feels” will make him feel better but he cannot yet do from guilt or shame or whatever. The less pressure from you, the more time for him to reflect and hopefully work through “his” issues.
His issues and all the talking shots at you are from his inner turmoil and his unrealized past and it’s affect upon him. It’s MLC. It’s a messy process. It’s a destructive process.
Let go and seek your beliefs. Strengthen and craft those you want and admire, and alter or discard those you don’t.
Stand for you!
I believe my next steps are to put that NC boundary in place to give myself the space I need for healing (and NC for me should really be called 'dim or dark' as I have to communicate about the kids and our business, both of which I feel emotionally capable of). But right now I am not sure what I am standing for. Can you help me understand what it means to be standing for me? Because in this place I am in right now, standing for me looks like cutting all ties with H, moving on with my life, being a killer single mama to my treasures and aiming for the bright future I believe I have ahead of me.
Looking at his list, I’m gonna bet you five dollars right now that he has had an OW from the start of this.
I know the OW has had a hand in this from the beginning. Probably for at least a couple of years.
But then I question myself about the MLC vs is this just an exit affair? I mean the woman also has 4 kids, lives across the country and is hiding it from her H. I don't know how they could really make it work long term because there is no way the kids and I are moving and we already have our feet on two continents (in addition to grandparents in Canada and Mexico, which is hard enough to juggle as it is). Adding another location is ludicrous with the limited time H will be available to our children when he is not traveling for work.
Sigh. I want to be further along in this process than I am. I want to have consistently good, strong, happy days instead of a couple here and there. I don't want H to have so much power over my feelings and emotions. But I suppose that this was a big love for me. And the feelings surrounding a big love don't just disappear overnight.
. Our journey started roughly a year ago and the reasons H is leaving our M have morphed over this time:
I had too many downfalls (heavy stepping being one of them, KML)
Lol! This just reminded me that my parting BD speech began with his displeasure of how I replace the toilet paper roll! Over or under people.....what’s the consensus?? Can you imagine...
At the time of BD we are waaayy to emotionally messed up to digest everything and weed through some of the nonsensical behaviour and words that are being said to our face. I remember early on trying to reason with him and point out all the things that didn’t make sense...that was before finding this resource and becoming “educated” on MLC.
I’m also reminded by your struggle right now of how intuitively wrong everything seems, the constant questioning (in our heads) the ah-ha moments of “it must be this...”. We don’t want them to go, But yet they are already gone. We want to let go, but still hold on to just a little bit.....
I too want to be further along, but try to remind myself of how far I’ve (We’ve) come. I also think our H’s are not allowing that right now either. They’ve dropped their bomb and now want to live a fantasy life without finalizing the exit plan details. H pops in and out when he wants, and of course you will have the tie with care for your children. When we truly let go of this alien person and hold out hope for their awakening...only then can we move further along...I think anyway....
The focus on what we can control and manage becomes the most important thing right now - OURSELVES. I’m trying to understand and be okay with the idea that some answers will come to me but some will remain unanswered ...that has to be ok or we’ll drive ourselves nuts. No?
Sigh. I want to be further along in this process than I am. I want to have consistently good, strong, happy days instead of a couple here and there. I don't want H to have so much power over my feelings and emotions. But I suppose that this was a big love for me. And the feelings surrounding a big love don't just disappear overnight.
I feel the same way. In my mind this one is a hard one to process because what you wrote above is
normal, no one in a loving committed relationship can turn off emotions and flee the way our H’s have. Dnj is excellent at reworking words to help reframe a healthier way of thinking for us ...but my stab at it is:
We give them that power over us and we have to learn how to stop. It goes back to your analogy of the “boss” - we let people know how they can treat us and if we’re there to be walked over then that’s what they’ll continue to do. This is where boundaries come in - to help take back some of the “power” and then with it our emotions and feelings.
But then comes “big love” - I couldn’t agree more. Our marriages weren’t built in a day, a week, a month or even a year. Therefore, I still feel the path we are choosing to travel has to be
“what it is”. That means good days, bad days, spewing, disagreements, hope, love, confusion, anger, fear, and of course walking loudly and putting the toilet paper on the holder wrong!!!! Lol!
We’ve got this Sage - through the ups and downs, good and bad. Sorry for the ramble on your page but I wanted to let you know you’ve got friends feeling the same way, wondering the same things and walking the same path...sometimes at a snails pace..and I’m trying to be okay with that pace...‘cause just maybe we’ll get to see and enjoy the beautiful things a little longer.
(((Sage)))
Hi
My version of standing is something like this
When I got to this site and for the first 2 years, I had no where to go
Standing gave me time...like 2 years time..to see if H would turn back
to see if I had a chance to save my M
to practice new skills with H
To be there for him
I was cordial and kind
detached when I could
I took this time to to heal me
To review the M and all the mistakes
to raise my school age children
to make sure I had enough financial means to raise them and still be an available mom
To get to therapy weekly or biweekly to grieve and deal with all the pain D brings
to deal with the D and the L and the negotiations
to GAL, make some new friends, read, exercise, grieve and change
as I look back it was a great time of growth for me
so standing can mean many things
We can stand for our M...for a time..or for longer
This site will support you in your individual choice
Everyone gets to choose for themselves
Sage,
I'll write more later but just wanted you to know that I *also* walked too heavily. For real. I don't know why, but it really makes me laugh about these crazy men. It is like they imagined these light-footed Disney princesses who swept around and magically took care of all their needs and were constantly interested in hearing more, more, more about the amazing and brilliant things our Hs were up to. And of course were always DTF. Then somehow they hear us walking around the house and that heavy tread is what bursts the whole bubble. It is so interesting to me that this makes the top ten list of why we aren't good partners.
xx M
May, I can't wait to hear more from you as well as an update on your situation!
OMG, another person who walks too heavily. What are the actual odds that there are some many of us on the same board? These men. FMR.
I had a big internal laugh last week when someone asked me if I am a dancer. When I said no and asked why, they said 'your posture is so perfect and you're SO LIGHTFOOTED. You move like a cartoon Disney princess'. Bwahaha.
But also, can we truly say 'grasping at straws'? At the time I took it so personally. But now I just realize what a fool I was to believe such nonsense. More tiptoeing ensued, both literally and figuratively, after that comment though.
Lolol there’s three of us!
My ex also accused me of teaching our daughter to walk too heavy! Now - IF I had an unusually heavy gait (I do not - I asked around!) and then my daughter did too, why would you assume I TAUGHT that, instead of it being genetic???
But really it shows that we were not bad spouses, if that was all they could come up with!
I was told that "sometimes" when I complimented her that I didn't sound sincere.
And since OM is a big sports fan she also complained that I didn't like sitting on the couch and watching hockey all the time but rather was either reading quietly or puttering around the house.
I’m reminded of a woman here once whose husband told her she was “too fat”. She was 5’8” and 125 lbs!
Hello Sage
I want to be further along in this process than I am. I want to have consistently good, strong, happy days instead of a couple here and there. I don't want H to have so much power over my feelings and emotions. But I suppose that this was a big love for me. And the feelings surrounding a big love don't just disappear overnight.
Kindly is right. We give our spouse that power over us, and we can take it back.
Detachment, indifference, and letting go.
The underlying truth is H has no power over you. None. You have all the power, always have, and you are allowing H’s behaviour to influence you.
You control you. Your can directly control your thoughts, actions, and reactions. Through these you can influence your emotions and beliefs. Thought and physical action are powerful influences that can affect desired changes and stop reinforcing of emotions.
Big love is much more than feelings. And yes, it does not disappear quickly.
However, do not mix H’s influence and your feeling due to big love. “But I suppose that this was a big love for me” is reinforcing that “power” over you. You are telling yourself a reason for allowing H’s influence/power to persist. And your mind is listening.
Start with the easier part. This was a big love. In truth you aren’t looking to rid yourself of those feelings, right? It’s ok, you are seeking compassion and empathy. Accept that you can love H and let him go. Big sincere love may last a lifetime; see it for what it is.
Indifference will mute those loving feelings for a while. From my experience they return. So...
Do not tie that love, or the supposed requisite disappearance of it, to taking back your emotional power. These are two separate things.
Once you accept that you can let H go, you start taking back your power. And those good, strong, happy days start to become much more consistent.
But right now I am not sure what I am standing for. Can you help me understand what it means to be standing for me? Because in this place I am in right now, standing for me looks like cutting all ties with H, moving on with my life, being a killer single mama to my treasures and aiming for the bright future I believe I have ahead of me.
Indifference causes our stand to waiver. At first our standing is based upon feelings and fear. Indifference lessens the very feelings of why we “feel” to stand. Look to your beliefs.
Standing for me. Standing really starts once we are healed enough to stand down. To stand for our marriage, our spouse, our relationship will not find that strong purchase. You stand for you and your beliefs. And this takes time to figure out.
There is a period of limbo and indifference. It is somewhat purgatory-like and seemly endless. However, there is something beyond limbo. Stay the course and discover you in that future. That is standing for you.
Right now, it seems like you should cut all ties and move on with your life. Or do you mean, let go of H, give him to God, and move forward living a good life? The latter begets a strength and a stand.
Yes, be an awesome Mother and live a bright future.
Standing for you, is living those values and beliefs.
Standing for you is a personal thing and means different to different people. Until one is completely sure they are ready to stand down - stand.
For me. For the first while, standing is the default. I was too broken and hurt to do anything else. Eventually I healed enough that I could stand down. I chose not too. I chose to stand for me. To live my convictions. To be compassionate. To stand and find forgiveness and acceptance. For both W and me.
Standing is forsaking another special relationship. Standing for you, strengthens the relationship with yourself, with your kids, with God.
...being a killer single mama to my treasures and aiming for the bright future I believe I have ahead of me.
Standing for you, doesn’t get much better summarized than what you said.
D
I’ve been reading some new and old posts over the past week. I wish I’d read some of these a lot earlier on in the separation.
I apologise for my abreviations, I will try my best.
I also hope this is in the right thread, I’m new to this forum thing.
My story so far, about 6-8 weeks ago my w (33F) told me she is unhappy.
We’ve been together 9 years and M almost 5 of those and we have a 3 yr old S together. In my eyes it has always been a great time together, there has never been any violence or abuse, almost no arguments.
Our time as parents did not begin well, I was diagnosed with a brain tumour 5 weeks after our S was born. I had it removed 3 months later. I am now tumour free, this would have put a strain on our MR.
Me (41M) can’t understand why. First she said that the joy had gone from us.
I will say this year I personally be a lot busier and stressed at work and I admit that our QT and SL has not been the same.
After our recent COVID lockdown quarantine she has been going out with friends a lot more. All this group of friends are single.
She has started drinking more, buying new clothes that she would’ve worn in her 20s.
She also has been very distant with her family and friends.
We tried to talk about things and both went to seperate therapy sessions.
We went to one therapy session together but she wasn’t very open to going to more.
I begrudgingly agreed to seperate as I didn’t think they workout, and take turn about for a week living in our family home separately with our S for consistency.
Naturally I did all the “usual small amount of begging, sending flowers etc.”
Around 4 weeks into the separation my W told me ILYBNILWY. And that there is no chance of reconciliation.
She has it in her mind to completely seperate and sell our family home. She has also started to purchase items for her new apartment.
I have a feeling she still cares, she messages me occasionally and messages to family about birthdays.
I recently had minor surgery and she offered and followed through with taking me to hospital.
It feels like there are so many mixed signals but it feels like she has also made up her mind to leave.
We are in contact via texting, mainly about our S.
Next week we are going to seperate our finances and organise a a formal separation agreement.
Here to learn more also, is my sitch a break up or MLC or WAW?
I really don’t know where I stand.
NZkiwi,
Please start a thread of your own so that the posters can post directly to you and provide assistance and support. It is far easier to have your own threads so that you have a place to call your own and refer back to at any given time.
NZkiwi,
Please start a thread of your own so that the posters can post directly to you and provide assistance and support. It is far easier to have your own threads so that you have a place to call your own and refer back to at any given time.
If you go out to the main part of the MLC forum at the top it will say New Thread - click on that and copy and paste that which you already wrote.
NZKiwi, I am sorry you are here and look forward to learning more about your situation... you have come to a good place and will undoubtedly gain some great advice and insight here.
Journaling.
I have been thinking about the conversation about anger that has been happening over on DnJ's thread. Gerda, I have no doubt that anger manifested in your body in the form of cancer. I truly believe that any emotion left unreleased can cause physical manifestations. Whether it is depression or anger. I am happy to read that you acknowledged it, that is the first step to releasing its power over you and your body.
I am getting deeper and deeper into the anger phase. I am sorry to vent, but I need to release it somehow and this feels like a safe space to me.
H is on a work trip and OW is the client.
He doesn't answer my phone calls right away (I have made two, one for an emergency and one when our child called him), which is a huge trigger to some traumatic events earlier in the year when I couldn't reach him in a true emergency.
My eldest 'ran away' yesterday over pent up anger and frustration at the S and eventual divorce.
I have been working on getting more family photos up in our house and accidentally delved into our past, where despite H's current narrative that he was never happy, I only see deep love and happiness in his eyes and body language towards me.
I am homeschooling the children alone, which I feel capable of, but it is still extremely hard. And I am trying to finish decorating our house from our recent remodel, executing business ideas so I have a future income, and heal from all the grief and pain of my situation. Oh, and reinvent myself completely. Each of these tasks alone is enough at one time, but I am doing it all at once.
Our old dog is dying and has become incontinent. This dog was our first child, but of course I am the one left wiping bums and washing dog beds and the floors three times a day.
H complained that our communal friends seemed distant to him and asked what they knew. I told him what I had shared with the wives (the basics, never threw him under the bus), but inside I wanted to scream at him "those men are family men who value their children and families above all else. None of them have perfect marriages or have been perfectly happy over the years, but they know the true value of the commitment to family. You breaking up your family in a quest for happiness is not a good look, H."
H has started worrying about finances, something that I was worried about from the beginning when he rented an expensive home and kept his expensive sports car payments. I am financially protected from his decisions, but unfortunately nothing happens in a complete bubble, so it impacts me indirectly too. What other foolish decisions am I going to be 'paying' for in the coming months and years?
And because misery loves company, as my anger increases, so too do the memories of all the horrible things that I have been told over the past year. I was too broken at the time to register it as abuse, but now I am able to see it for what it is and I am angry at H AND myself for allowing myself to be treated like that.
---
I am shocked by the depths of my anger, it is not a familiar emotion for me. But in some ways, she's a pleasant bedmate as I navigate through this whole process. I kind of like her fire and motivation. The sadness and confusion were the hardest to bear for me so far, although I know that I will still have a range of emotions ahead of me.
Although I acknowledge this festering vitriol inside of me, I do feel like I am able to feel these things and then let them go.
---
And finally, H told me the other day when we were talking about the fact that I didn't see this coming, that I felt blindsided by all of this: 'that's the reason; you didn't pay attention to the signs.'
Despite me checking in regularly with him to make sure he and we were both happy, heading in the direction we both wanted etc. We have always had at least one very intentional 'state of the union' and goal-making sessions a year, where we would go away for the night and talk about all the things going right and wrong in our life and what to do about them. We also were honest (or so I thought) about our deepest feelings with and toward one another on a regular basis.
I asked him how I was supposed to know if every time we had a conversation, he said 'things are fine, I'm just stressed-tired-overwhelmed with work' and then we would go on to make big plans like travel or a major home remodel. Was I supposed to mind read?
I know that questioning this is likely an exercise in futility, but finding some common ground with others in this same situation makes me feel more grounded and less crazy.
Thanks for letting me vent!
xx
Sage, I'm so sorry that you're feeling the pressure of so many things happening at once. You have every right to be angry.
I was just listening to a podcast about anger when I was driving the kids to school this morning. Anger is a valid emotion. It exists in us to alert us to injustice and then it can energize us to respond to that injustice. I think what you're doing it great - examining the causes and coming to terms with it.
Recognizing the past abuse from our Hs is one of the most difficult things to process. You couldn't have "allowed" it to happen if you didn't know what was happening. I think it's important to free yourself from that burden. Same thing with H commenting that you didn't pay attention to the signs. No amount of checking in and sign giving would have salvaged the situation. That's a cop out on his end. For him to place that burden on you, is wrong and unjust.
When I sense anger sprouting, I slow down my pace and find little enjoyments in life that would prop me up. Either go to the gym and physically releasing the energy, or it could be as simple as skipping cooking dinner and order take out. If my kids are not driving my crazy, they might even help simmer down my anger with their butt jokes. lol.
Sage, I
so identify with this (well, and pretty much everything else you wrote):
And because misery loves company, as my anger increases, so too do the memories of all the horrible things that I have been told over the past year. I was too broken at the time to register it as abuse, but now I am able to see it for what it is and I am angry at H AND myself for allowing myself to be treated like that.
I just finished writing on my thread that I had anger early on after BD about, well, BD and H's behavior. But reading this makes me realize it's no wonder I am experiencing new cycles of anger--there is so much I wasn't able to recognize in the moment. It was all about my wanting to restore our M at first, and it's only in the last several months that I've able to see more objectively some of the ways H was treating me. It's like the anger that should have been there in the moment was delayed, and now my mind/body is wanting to retroactively set boundaries.
I love what wooba said in response.
Recognizing the past abuse from our Hs is one of the most difficult things to process. You couldn't have "allowed" it to happen if you didn't know what was happening. I think it's important to free yourself from that burden. Same thing with H commenting that you didn't pay attention to the signs. No amount of checking in and sign giving would have salvaged the situation. That's a cop out on his end. For him to place that burden on you, is wrong and unjust.
It seems only natural that we would process all of this in fits and starts, and that some of that would entail bouts of anger. Venting here does help, doesn't it?
Finally, I'm so sorry that your dog isn't doing well. That is a hard enough thing to face and work through on its own, and when so much of the history of the R and M is tied up with him (truly, the first kid), that makes it so much harder. Sending big hugs your way.
Hi Sage,
Thinking of you. Is your H back from his work trip? I was reading through my journals from the fall and remembering how awful it was to know that H was likely with his AP, even though he was lying about it at the time. I remember him not answering the phone also, and taking a really long time to respond to texts about things like our daughter scoring a goal at her soccer game-- things I knew he'd have responded to immediately if he was alone or with work colleagues, at least a text if he couldn't answer the phone. It was awful. I know our sitches are different and you have a lot more to process right now than I did at the time-- so I am just wanting to send you hugs, I know a bit of how you feel and it is awful. You deserve every speck of anger and grief and resentment and disgust and everything else that is fighting for oxygen inside of you. It's OK. You are still an amazing, good and optimistic and beautiful person inside and out who is simply and justifiably angry.
How are the kids, your dog? How are YOU? I wanted to pop in and see how you were doing. You are always so generous and kind and empathetic when you post on my thread and others-- I always feel such a rush of relief and friendship when I see you've posted something on my thread. I want you to know how much I appreciate you and that I'm here for you, too-- so vent, sister, vomit up all the anger you need and I'll hold your hair and get you a glass of water.
xx May
Oh May, you have no idea what your post means to me. Thank you, sweet friend afar. (((May)))
Interestingly enough, my anger phase was short-lived. I mean, the anger and frustration pops its gnarly little head out briefly here and there when I am dealing with too much for one person to deal with at once. But for the most part, the anger is gone and I am trending towards compassion.
I have always relied on my intuition to help me navigate my life. I honestly don't know if it's correct until time passes, but for the most part, it has served me well.
H came home from his work trip with OW client and came over for socially-distanced birthday wishes for our birthday child. I thought he might just stop by for a minute (I suggested we meet somewhere other than my home, but he needed to grab something so I acquiesced). But it ended up being a couple of hours. I got the distinct sense that he wasn't in a good place; and my first intuitive hit was that maybe things weren't as rosy cozy with OW as I originally thought. I have absolutely no idea if I am correct or not.
Our birthday child had a meltdown over something insignificant and came in the house to cry (H was staying outside 6 feet away and masked). Child kept saying 'this isn't what I thought my birthday would be like, this isn't what I expected, we are not following the plans!' (We had written a list of all the things child was going to do that day, complete with times-- and more or less we were following the 'plans' to a T). I had this realization that it was too hard for child to have both of us there, but not together in a loving way like she wanted. So I made an effort to connect with H and be outside with him and gently shared what I believed child was going through (gently, no blame, just matter of factly).
Somehow, that erupted into a mini-fight between us, where he blamed me for dumping emotional baggage on him whenever I wanted (children were not present). He mumbled something mean and started to walk away. And I reminded him that this home is my sacred space and he can't come here and be mean to me. That my preference was to meet in a neutral place so he could have his time with birthday child and I wouldn't be triggered. So then he brought up that blasted journal that he read of mine. It was an exercise a spiritual healer gave me in April, where I was to write a present-tense list of what I was feeling and where I was at in my relationship in two years' time. It was all about H, but no names were mentioned.
H is using this as evidence that I don't love him and never have, that I had moved on, that my 'list' is evidence of that. But nothing could be further from the truth. That list was all about HIM. Where WE would be at in two years' time. In fact, during our last reconciliation attempt, I asked him a few times if I could share something with him, an exercise that I was given that I wanted him to know about and that I hoped he would do too. He didn't give me a chance to share it with him during that time period, but now it is being used against me.
Friends, what do I do? Part of me wants to write an email and say how much I have loved him, beyond anyone else in my life, for years and years. And that the list was all about HIM. And the other part of me wants to continue this new, true detachment and just shrug my shoulders and say 'nothing I say or do will change his current narrative, protect yourself, Sage'. It is hard to have this used against me, with how loving and honest the intention was (and FFS, what was he doing snooping in my journals anyway?!?!).
Help me here!
On another note, I had a 'sitting' with a psychic about my situation and the first thing that came up was that H had lifelong insecurities about being lovable and that I was the best candidate for showing H true love; that I was love incarnate, which is what my family and friends say about me. But that the skeletons in his closet meant that no one on this earth could fill that bottomless cup and I had to let him go (maybe forever, maybe until he does enough work on himself). More significantly, my dearly loved, departed dad showed up and said 'You know I am here. Detach, disassociate; not your circus, not your monkeys, Babygirl' (totally his voice, totally the words he would use, and there were other things that the person said about my Dad that no one could have known). Sob. Ever since that interaction I have felt myself move into a different place. For the first time I can interact with H and not feel anything. Not the sadness that would completely overwhelm me. Not even the anger or hatred. In fact, I feel compassion for a person who feels himself to be unlovable.
I am grateful for the detachment, whether it came from a medium, or if it was just my time, is irrelevant. Sitting in this place is helpful for me at the moment.
Thanks for listening to my long journal vent!
Hello Sage
Friends, what do I do? Part of me wants to write an email and say how much I have loved him, beyond anyone else in my life, for years and years. And that the list was all about HIM. And the other part of me wants to continue this new, true detachment and just shrug my shoulders and say 'nothing I say or do will change his current narrative, protect yourself, Sage'. It is hard to have this used against me, with how loving and honest the intention was (and FFS, what was he doing snooping in my journals anyway?!?!).
Help me here!
It is very difficult when things, especially in unchanging written form, are used out of context and against you. (((Sage)))
You know the second choice is the best one. Detach. Nothing you say or do will change his mind; only he can change his mind and his current narrative.
His path is about him. He is in crisis and unable to handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s. Case in point, the wee bit of gently shared concern for birthday child was too much for him, and he came out blaming and fighting. Highlights the irrational path he is on.
Detach and continue to move forward. Indifference is most helpful.
You got this.
D
(((Sage)))
So I made an effort to connect with H and be outside with him and gently shared what I believed child was going through (gently, no blame, just matter of factly).
Somehow, that erupted into a mini-fight between us, where he blamed me for dumping emotional baggage on him whenever I wanted (children were not present).
I think that it would be impossible for your H to hear this without feeling the blame-- not necessarily from you, but from himself (though he might offload it onto you in his mind). If he hadn't made the choices he had, your daughter would not be crying inside on her birthday. He knows this. You know this too. I don't have advice, really, except that this leading into a fight and him going on the offense seems totally predictable.
The reading of the journal and using it to condemn you and rewrite history is so maddening and at the same time, total script-following, right? He has secrets and so assumes you do too, and snoops to find out. He reads your private journal and twists what he finds into justification for his behavior-- see, Sage never loved me! See, she has moved on!
My H has done this too-- not the snooping part but the rewriting of history, bringing up the boyfriend I had before him and claiming I've always held a candle for him, finding ways to "prove" I never loved him the way he loved me, that even now I don't love him but a idealized version of him, calling the SSM my "affair." It all comes from the same place of self-loathing and grasping at straws to build a narrative in which what he has done isn't so bad. I think you have to understand where this is all coming from. It has absolutely nothing to do with you and everything to do with the battles raging in his own head.
What to do? If it were me, I'm sure I would write that email and say what you read was about YOU and F you for reading my private journals and F you even more for trying to make me feel bad about them. Ha. However, I don't really think that is a great idea. He isn't in a place where that has any meaning to him right now. He'll just discard that list and find the next thing to grab onto to "prove" his point, or he'll think you're lying (since he would have lied about it, he will probably assume you would too). And, one thing I read about here a lot and have observed in my own H is that their memories are TERRIBLE. So it may be useless to even try. He'll discard whatever data points don't fit his hypothesis. I wouldn't be surprised if you did write him that email that a few months down the line, if that list is still somehow part of his narrative, if he forgets that you told him it was about him and will continue to use it as "evidence" you don't love him anymore.
And think about what your dad said. Not your circus, not your monkeys. No need to prove yourself or your love to someone who doesn't speak the language right now.
As an aside, I would bet that things aren't so rosy with OW. Having MO probably puts pressure on her (she has a family too, right?) and we all know how much WASs hate pressure.
I'm glad you're feeling more balanced and less angry. I need to cultivate that feeling, still-- it comes and goes for me.
xx M
Sage, how are you? Just wanted to check in and let you know I'm thinking of you. xx
Hi May! Thanks for checking in!
Journaling:
I am in a really good place at the moment. The fierce anger cleansed me of the sadness/depression surrounding my situation and I feel like I have moved steadily in the direction of compassion towards myself, my children and H. I feel very detached in a solid way right now and I am so grateful for this. I haven't cried in almost two weeks and that is a huge development for me.
H had the kids this weekend for the first time in three weeks. The kids struggled to go, but once they were there it went just fine. I had a chance to go to the mountains before the snow starts and did some amazing fall hiking with my mom. It was magical and nature is always the best healer.
Here is where I am struggling and I would love perspective and advice: I have been warm and compassionate towards H this past week or so and I haven't let anything he does or says impact my interactions with him. I am able to validate and truly treat him as I would a friendly neighbor. However, he is very inconsistent. One minute he is kind and the next he is shark-eyed and can't make eye contact and tries to blame me for minuscule things.
Although I am feeling detached and can let a lot of this roll off my back, it is exhausting and extremely hard for me to be around him. I have the tiniest toehold into my own healing and rebuilding my self-worth and I am desperate to maintain that toehold.
Our eldest has a birthday coming up and wants a big (Covid 'big', mind you) party at my house. It will include the families in our bubble, who have been a huge support to me and my children in this whole process. H wants to come. I don't want him to. I want to be able to relax and enjoy myself with my friends while my kids get to be with their friends. I don't want to risk having interactions with H where I will feel hurt, triggered or sensitive. So far, we are 2 for 2 with the kids' birthday events leading to a negative interaction between us.
I can't remember the last birthday of eldest child's that H was actually here. So it is really not a big deal to my child whether H is there or not. They would have time together earlier in the day.
So, I guess my question is this: should I set aside my needs to accommodate his feelings/desire to be included? I feel like this is what I have done all along and I am not sure I am better off for it. But on the flip side, I would be devastated to not be included in something like this if the roles were reversed. However, I would have never chosen to leave in the first place, so there is an element of 'he chose this'.
OMG, Sage. This one is so easy.
Just say no.
No.
No.
No.
Everything you wrote about your concerns about the BD party is valid. You are NOT RESPONSIBLE for your H deciding to have an affair and leave. Not being invited to family birthday parties at your ex's home is one very small consequence of doing what he did. I really think this is another example of you shouldering the extra emotional burden-- the difficulty of the situation itself and perhaps it causing backsliding in your own healing-- just so that your H doesn't feel badly and suffer the consequences of his own choices.
Also... don't do the "if the roles were reversed" thing here. I don't think that makes sense when you're dealing with someone like your H who has made the choices he's made. He has missed birthdays and even the BIRTH of a child before! It doesn't matter to him like it would matter to you, beyond the "he made his bed" part of it, which might feel a little yucky/petty to you right now. (though there is a part of me that feels the more you enable his cake-eating, the longer before he is motivated to do any work on himself. And for you, the longer that shark-eyed version of him is around, the worse off you'll be in coparenting with him and sharing a business together.)
Don't do it. You deserve a fun and stress-free birthday party for your oldest child. There is enough stress in the world right now that if you can carve out a little time just to have fun, you should. Remember how terribly he behaved at the last one?
If it is too hard to think about doing it for yourself, do it for your kids. You know you're a better parent when you are feeling detached and compassionate and whole and healthy. Say no to your H as a gift to them.
(((Sage)))
I agree. Having to celebrate holidays separately is the price you pay for separation.
I remember, the first Thanksgiving after my ex left. (Mind you, he left in early February and we're in the US so this was 9 months later). Divorce papers were filed in February and the divorce was in process. I was living with my mom as our house had been sold.
And my ex asked our adult kids (then 17-22) if he was invited to Thanksgiving at my mom's house!!!!!
Now first of all - my mom would have glared at him all day as she was mad as heck at him for cheating on me.
Second, we were not reconciling nor was this a "mutual" divorce - by what right did he think he would be welcome at our house?
Honestly, I think it just dawned on him that he was gonna miss out on the awesome Thanksgiving dinner that I had always prepared (with no help from him! He always went surfing Thanksgiving morning because it was uncrowded - uh, yeah, because good husbands were home helping their wives!!!)
I gave a strong "No!" or maybe "He!! no!" to that. We have split or alternated Thanksgivings since (although lately my ex has chosen to be out of town over Thanksgiving).
Honestly, at this point, I'd be happy to invite him and his wife over for Thanksgiving dinner - EXCEPT for the fact that he has treated the kids (and me, financially) so poorly since the divorce. So nope. Not invited. That's the consequences of cheating on your wife and dumping her after 26 years and then being a selfish father to your adult children for years. Not happening.
Good Morning Sage
I agree with May and kml.
You have a hard fought toehold right now. Haven’t cried in two weeks. You are rebuilding and healing. And you recognize you are not ready for a day with H, celebrating a birthday or otherwise.
I know you feel kind of mixed up on this. That’s ok.
Celebrate your eldest child’s birthday and let H do whatever birthday celebration he will or won’t.
If H’s presence would not affect you so, like maybe next year, yes you could include Dad on the invitee list. Currently, this year, no, you need to remain dim.
If you were to really be considering inviting H, I’d ask eldest’s if they wanted Dad at their party. Mind you, their wishes need to be acknowledged then - yes or no. Again, this year, I wouldn’t ask eldest nor invite H.
Have the “Covid big” party. Pin the tail. Eat cake and ice cream. And enjoy the day.
D
Mat, KML and DnJ, thank you for the words of support and solidarity. It means a lot to me.
This evening, the birthday party came up and I told H that it was too hard for me. After a long, sad pause he asked what was so hard about it and I said that I was working on finding my balance again and that it is just too hard to spend prolonged periods of time together at my house.
He didn't take it well. At first he was understanding and kind, but then later in the conversation (we had other business to discuss) he got petty and mean and told me 'we're not friends!'. Which I in turn reacted by saying, that's the reason it doesn't make sense for you to be present at the birthday party. We are not friends. Only friends are coming to this party.
But underneath it all, I know he is so devastated.
Which makes me want to cry and makes me question everything... I know I can lead the way to a better R with H by taking it all on the chin, by continuing to be the bigger person and include him in everything. But doing so would require me to stuff down my needs. Which I have done for so long in this R, and look where it got me? Into a S heading towards D. As hard as this is, it is the closest I can come to a 180 in our R. Right?
This is on the heels of a friend mentioning that H had the kids at a birthday party this weekend while I was away, and that he chose to sit far away from the other parents, in a sad way. He knows he is not welcome.
Someone please tell me I am not a monster and not doing the wrong things. I have spent so long putting H's emotional needs above my own, this feels very, very uncomfortable to me.
Sage,
Stay strong. You are right. We all have things that seem counter-intuitive.
Honestly, he needs to know what he is going to lose. You have been questioning everything, let him question now.
His getting petty shows you have hit him close to where he cannot justify in his mind his behavior.
You are not a monster!! Continue with your own needs. Believe me, I understand.
You are strong.
((SAGE)))
PLC
These are the consequences of leaving your marriage. He needs to see what this is going to cost him. And you shouldn’t have to suffer so his itty bitty feelings won’t be hurt by facing reality!
Perversely, he’s more likely to return if he feels the loss now, than if you make it easy for him.
And no, friends don’t rip your heart out like he did yours.
Good Morning Sage
(((Hugs)))
Which makes me want to cry and makes me question everything... I know I can lead the way to a better R with H by taking it all on the chin, by continuing to be the bigger person and include him in everything.
Nope. You cannot lead the way by taking it on the chin. You lead the way by standing, and standing up, for you.
It is up to H if he follows or not.
You cannot “nice” him back. He needs to feel what he will loose, and has lost.
Good for you telling him we’re not friends - my friends don’t do what you did. A few truth darts here and there do hit their mark, and they hurt - his choice, his consequences.
You have shown much kindness and compassion in this exchange with H. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is be honest and truthful; with good honourable intent at the root of things.
Asking if you’re a monster shows you are not. Monsters don’t question.
You are doing the right thing. Keep moving forward. Focus on you and your kids.
You’ve got this Sage.
D
Thanks friends!
Well, it didn’t take H long to challenge me on my ‘no’. I had a dr appt this morning and he was supposed to come over and get the kids started on their school zoom calls. He texted to say he had overslept and was running late. He doesn’t sleep when he’s stressed or emotional so that was a cue that I had a conversation coming.
When I got home from my appt, he told me he has been thinking about the party and wanted to strongly advocate for coming, if only for a little bit. That we didn’t have to interact or talk (?!?) and that it was important for him to be there for our eldest, especially as other dads were going to be there. I pushed back on the ‘we won’t interact’ saying that is EXACTLY what I don’t want to experience. That it makes me feel sad and hurt and that just doesn’t work for me.
I didn’t bring up eldest’s birthday last year when he finished up a job and went out clubbing with his crew instead of flying home to us or being available to talk and connect with the kids. Meanwhile I was trick or treating alone with the kids. Other dads were at that event.
H also mentioned that he feels like I am doing this only to punish him. I put my hand on my heart and lovingly said I am so sorry he feels like that but nothing could be further from the truth. That I had to protect me and my heart.
We got interrupted by kids so it kind of ended there. But of course I am vacillating (to you guys only!). I have been contemplating my motives ‘am I trying to punish him?’ Or am I just truly protecting myself and my tiny toehold? And I think where I am at now is that I am protecting myself and letting him deal with the consequences of his actions. Which may feel like punishment because I always tried to save him from his sad feelings in the past.
Am I on the right path?
Yup you are. And sounds like you explained it perfectly.
You're not used to putting yourself first. It does get easier. You're 100% correct-- what he's experiencing is a consequence, not a punishment.
STAY ON COURSE. You got this, you are so strong. Don't doubt yourself. ((SAGE))
Hi Sage
You are on the right path.
You need this. It is for your emotional health.
And... it might just have a positive affect upon H. That is not the reason - you are the reason. If H experiences a loss and gets pushed forward a bit, well that’s a bonus.
Stick to your guns. “We are separated. This is what happens when you’re separated.”
Stand strong. We’ve got your back.
D
Thank you KML, DnJ, Scout and PLC... it is really supportive to process this with you all.
H hasn't brought up the issue again, despite the fact that we interacting a few more times yesterday. He was distant and tried hard to 'ignore' me. I won't say anything unless he brings it up again.
Where I need continued help/advice/support is how challenging it is for me to not 'fix' this whole situation. Not so much in the specific instance of the birthday party; but in the broader sense of trying to build a roadmap towards friendship and mutual respect. I can see that H is not going to instigate this, nor offer an olive branch. But I know that he would likely respond positively if I were to do so.
But that feels like me reverting back to old patterns in our R and I want to do things differently now. I can feel the seeds of change in myself and my way of relating to others. And I am trying to convince myself that if me doing things differently leads to the final demise of our R, then it wasn't a R worth saving anyway.
How do I navigate this in terms of standing for and trying to 'save' my M and/or build a post-M friendship with H?
It really doesn't work to try to "nice" someone back from the brink of a divorce. I have seen a lot more results when the WAS saw the LBS starting to get their own life and they realized they weren't waiting quietly on a shelf for them as a Plan B - sometimes the WAS will wake up and start to realize what they are losing.
And you handled it in the right way - not as punishment, but simply acknowledging that it hurts you too much for him to be there at this time. You're not shutting the door, you're just not allowing him to abuse you. It's setting a healthy boundary. You can be kind and have healthy boundaries at the same time. Stick to the high road but at the same time don't let him cross those healthy boundaries.
And you're right - if he can't respect your pain, if he can't feel an appropriate amount of concern for the pain he is causing you, then it might not be a relationship worth saving. Time will tell.
Sage,
So glad you stayed strong on this one. It is NOT YOUR JOB to make your H feel better. Your job is to take care of you and your beautiful children. You can be the best mom you can be when you are safe and whole and healthy.
I'm going to say the thing I hate when people say, which is that he fired you as his wife. Ugh, I hate it when people say that. But honestly... why, why, why do you care if he is devastated? Honestly, so what? He has betrayed you and lied to you and left you. He went on a trip to see the OW and didn't answer his phone when you were trying to let him know that your child ran away. Letting go of caring about him is not petty or punishing or any of the rest. Your energy needs to be focused on you, and right now, you know for yourself that making this easier on him means twisting yourself into a pretzel and shoving down your own needs in favor of his.
What can you do to let go of your need to cushion his landing? You have to spend whatever emotional bandwidth you have at the moment on YOU, so that you can be there for your kids. THAT is your number one job.
At some point there was some conversation on my thread about me preventing my H from feeling the consequences of his own choices and therefore preventing him from the growth and work he needed to do for himself, which was, in the long run, the wrong thing to do, even if it felt easier in the moment. I think this might be applicable to you. I know it feels so uncomfortable to let him be in pain. Can you think of him like a child? That by making this all easy on him you're helicopter parenting and not letting him make his own choices and experience the natural consequences of them, and have the opportunity to experience growth and learning from those?
In the sense of standing for your M, the only way back for him, if he does come back (which somehow I think he will, please no-one ding me for saying this but I've always felt this about Sage's H) is if he goes through the process of truly understanding and accepting the consequences of the decisions he has made, and if it turns out that those aren't things he can live with, doing the hard work of personal growth and change to become the kind of H that you deserve. I think of this like that children's song about going on a bear hunt... can't go over it... can't go under it... can't go around it... have to go THROUGH it. He has to go through this in order to come out on the other side someone capable of a true partnership with you.
And in the sense of having a mutually respecting co-parenting relationship or even friendship with him eventually, this HAS to be a two-way street. It doesn't work for it to be you bending over backwards so that he can do the bare minimum and reap the benefits and accolades of a perfect D. This feels like you just extending the same dysfunctional dynamic of your M into a post-M world.
You don't have to be cold or mean. You also don't owe him any explanations. If you need fuel when you start to let that gigantic heart of yours get the better of you, think of him snooping in your house and reading your journals and then using your high school words against you. Think of him ignoring your phone calls on his trip. Think of him making dumb cracks about women to your family. Think of your dad telling you this isn't your circus. And then think of the whole and healed feeling inside yourself that you're nurturing and protect that little seed like it is your fifth child.
((SAGE)) xoxoxoxo you can do this.
Hello Sage
Excellent questions and insight into your inner challenges and changes.
...but in the broader sense of trying to building a roadmap towards friendship and mutual respect.
Don’t try - do.
Friendship and mutual respect will take two parties involvement.
I can see that H is not going to instigate this, nor offer an olive branch. But I know that he would likely respond positively if I were to do so.
Yes, that is most likely true. Your role would be to lead.
How do I navigate this in terms of standing for and trying to 'save' my M and/or build a post-M friendship with H?
Be kind and cordial. Compassionate and indifferent (when called for).
Led and live your life honourable and respectfully. To H, to others, and most importantly to you.
You lead. You live that life, that person you want to be, that women only a fool would leave. If H doesn’t follow. If H leaves - then he is without doubt, a fool.
Marriage restored, or post-M friendship, or whatever - ensure your side of the street is proper. Be the best you
can will be.
kml and May have both given great advice. Figure out your healthy boundaries and stick to them. That is being true to you, and leading H (and others). We really do teach people how to treat us.
You act respectfully and boundary H’s disrespect. That is the path to friendship and mutual respect. Will H walk it?
“I know that he would likely respond positively if I were to do so.”
If H’s running is winding down, ensure you remain a safe place for him to land. Lashing out, or punishing, will not have a good affect. You need to be the bigger person, and bite your tongue. Don’t worry, later, much later, you will have opportunities to ask those questions and say those comments. Funny thing, those very things so pressing right now, become less and less important as you progress. Remember feelings fade; find your believes and values.
Those convictions, values, and beliefs - those are what you stand with. It becomes standing for you. It’s not standing to save your M, it’s standing to save you. It’s standing to become you.
My advice, and what I’ve followed (I believe) - be you. The best you. If that leads to the demise of your M or R, so be it. It’s not that the M or R wasn’t worth saving - it is you are worth saving!
H will do what he will do. You become the best version of yourself, and no matter what the outcome is of your M or R, you will not regret your life and choices.
In the broader sense, that is the path.
D
Sage, I've got to run but just wanted to say I'm so happy to read that you are sticking to what you feel in your gut and know is healthy and right for you, and of course everyone here is so helpful in validating that! Hold on to that seeds-of-change-in-yourself feeling. Let that guide you through doubt. ((Sage))
Sage,
I just want to reiterate that you did the right thing by saying no to him. Keep protecting yourself!! ((Sage)).
Well, the saga continues...
Birthday child asked about the plans for his birthday and whether H will be there or not. Before I could answer, he said he wanted H there, that he would feel bad for his dad if he was left out. I said that I wasn't sure that was going to happen, that I had some hesitations, but that I would talk to H.
Here's the conundrum for me: H has so much guilt surrounding abandonment (he was abandoned as a very young child in boarding school). My children do not. It has been a huge issue in our parenting approaches over the years-- he smothers them with his guilt, projecting it onto them, even though they have never felt abandoned by him. It has come up in the children's therapy over the past year, that they feel responsible for his emotions and if they don't reciprocate or 'take care of him' emotionally, that they are somehow bad or not good people.
At this moment, my children are in a position of feeling lots of anger towards H and are very emotionally sophisticated. They have expressed anger at how he is leaving 'to be happy' but in the process, he has made so many people unhappy (me and them) and he is only thinking of himself (not to mention they don't think he's happy). But at the same time, they feel responsible for his happiness and won't say anything to him that may cause him to feel bad or sad.
So, back to the birthday. If I don't allow H to come, birthday child will feel like he has to make it up to H emotionally. Birthday child won't feel he is able to share stories of the fun and exciting things that happened at his birthday because it would hurt H that he wasn't there. So then my child is back in the position of stuffing down his emotions to please H. And just a little background here: child's birthday falls on a very fun kids' holiday here in the US, and has always had his birthday overshadowed by this holiday. This is the first birthday ever where normal activities for this holiday are not happening due to Covid, so all the excitement and energy is now on birthday child. His friends are ecstatic, he is ecstatic and it's likely this is the only birthday in his remaining childhood where he will have this level of attention solely on him on his actual day.
I am not sure I am capable of putting my child through this no matter what I feel about H being there.
H hasn't mentioned it this weekend, but I am sure he will at some point today. My thoughts are to tell him that it is important to our child that he is present, but that my house is a sacred place these days where love, friendship and kindness are welcome. That even if we have to fake it, the only way he can be present is if all resentment, anger and insecurities are left at the door and friendship prevails.
Walk me through this... any thoughts are welcome.
I think you put it perfectly. That sounds great.
Hi Sage,
If I don't allow H to come, birthday child will feel like he has to make it up to H emotionally. Birthday child won't feel he is able to share stories of the fun and exciting things that happened at his birthday because it would hurt H that he wasn't there. So then my child is back in the position of stuffing down his emotions to please H.
It sounds a little to me like you are imagining if H comes it is going to be this perfect birthday, and if he doesn’t come it will not— or, at least, the aftermath will not.
It is awful that your child has to have these mental gymnastics about something as straightforward as his birthday. But I want to gently challenge you on this. Your H could come and be a jerk and your son may then feel guilty about asking that he was there (if he’s shouldering the burden of his father’s happiness, even if you haven’t done a single thing to make him feel responsible he may feel the burden of yours as well). He could be monitoring your H the whole time to see how much he talks to you and if he’s having fun and then doesn’t focus on it being his day. H could behave beautifully and then the children start to think maybe he will come home.
I just think it is a big assumption that your son will actually be happier or better off with H there. Yes, it may very well be that he won’t be able to enjoy it uncomplicatedly because your H isn’t there. It very well may be impossible for him to enjoy it uncomplicatedly NO MATTER WHAT, because of the bomb your self-centered H has thrown into all of your lives. That is not on you. That is on him.
Also, this is your decision, not your son’s— you are the parent and the adult and if you choose to have H celebrate his birthday another time, you can make it crystal clear that it was not your son’s call, so he doesn’t need to feel responsible.
(((sage)))
Hello Sage
The decision to not invite H was for your wellbeing, not punishing H.
Rock solid boundaries are excellent in theory. However, like most theoretical things, when putting them into practice a little give and take is sometimes required. Is this one of those times? I’m not sure it is. I’m not sure it isn’t.
Your children feeling responsible for Dad’s emotions, for his happiness, is of course troubling. People (Dad) are responsible for how they themselves feel. No one else is responsible. It may do good for child having Dad miss the party. To realize that Dad is still around and that they made it through as well. I do not think Dad’s absence would over shadow the fun-filled day.
It is interesting the birthday child wants Dad there. That he would feel bad for his Dad if he were left out. It would be so much better if child wanted Dad there because they love him, and he’s lots of fun, and they have such a good time.
Your children do sound like they are in touch with their feelings. Understanding and expressing how they are angry with Dad. Expressing how Dad left to find his happiness causing much hurt along the way.
Yes, they are children, and they don’t yet say anything to cause Dad to feel bad or sad. They cannot risk loosing him. However, they will grow, and they will eventually speak their minds and hearts.
The relationship between child and father is their’s. It is not your job to facilitate it. It is your job to not destroy it.
As I said, theory and practical sometimes don’t quite align. There is your wellbeing, the children’s wellbeing, the growth of you and them, and the example you are setting for your children. For they are watching and learning. How should one, how does one, behave during these times is being imprinted and will have an affect upon their relationships. Hence kindness and compassion, especially for one’s self.
So, after much rambling, what you stated is perfect. Clearly state and hold to your expectations for H - if he is invited. I am really on the fence.
I am a hopeful person. Usually looking to see the best within all the possibilities. To that, talk to H, laid out the expectations clearly, and invite him.
Conundrums, concerns, and problems are put in our way to help us grow. All we can do is the best with what we have. Given birthday child’s request, I think inviting Dad will be the path of lesser regret. It is kind and compassionate. Let’s hope H makes the best of it.
D
Dear Sage,
I fully agree with DnJ. I too have 3 children and fully understand the position you are in.
I am also a hopeful person and have always followed the path of approaching my husband in a calm, forgiving and friendly manner, without actually being a doormat.
If he said or did things that were hurtful to me or the children, I would say in a direct but gentle way to stop it and then walk away from him.
This helped in most cases.
If you feel that he should somehow be present at the party, then you should go ahead with it. You have to let your own feelings speak.
In most cases, when they are surrounded by people other than the family, they tend to act more calmly. Let's hope he does this if you still decide to invite him.
Good luck!!
I have another perspective to offer.
Did it ever occur to you that you will be doing more for your H and even your M by saying no than by saying yes?
I agree that protecting yourself is the most important thing, so let's start there. H will say you are punishing him; that's the MLCer outlook on everything. He also said all his problems are your fault, I assume. You know you are not punishing him. You know you need space and you know you sorely need treasured time with friends. So ignore his interpretation and know you are protecting your solitude. So if you need that solitude to heal, as you did hiking with your mom, know that that healing is the KEY to your standing. If you are exhausted or anxious all the time, you will burn out from standing or you will not be able to do it with a clear head.
Now for H -- Your choices can't be there to teach him anything except that you have a boundary, and he might not learn that anyway. But you still have to do it, it may be the only thing that will work on him. He is a teenager. If your teenager drove drunk, would you give him access to the family car the next week so that he would feel you trust him? Your H wants to drive drunk (MLC metaphor) into your party. No thank you! Not good for H, for you or for the party guests. He can design a very special birthday activity for his kid without you, he is choosing that.
Now if you kid really really wanted H there and you had the strength to do it, I might say go for it. But even then I might not. My D wanted to bring my dog to her dad's house and I said as gently as I could that the dog lives here and that her dad can always get a special pet if he wants one. It's awful but I think it's ultimately good for my D to also see boundaries. The whole situation stinks but clarity on boundaries is a good way for our kids to to not wonder and worry about so many unknowns. Things are known and then they too can work on acceptance.
I stood for seven years and my H lived there for five of them. I assure you that no amount of saintly resolve will change them. Some of them do change, and I believe in restoration with all my heart and mind. But I thinkboundaries might be the only chance for the LBS healing and thus for the potential restoration when/if the MLCer ever takes his mind back from the Alien Forces who took over his body.
Thank you all for the thoughtful advice and support during my 'crisis', dear friends.
I felt clear and strong in my intentions when H and next spoke about the birthday. That he would be able to come and the expectation would be that we worked on a friendship and being amicable prior to and during the party. I felt capable of it and H affirmed that he was as well.
I thought it was going to be a quick conversation, but it morphed into a huge R talk. More of a one-sided conversation, in that I listened and validated and tried to re-direct when things started to feel intense. But I learned SO much from that conversation (I think Job is the one that says to sit back and listen because sometimes the MLCer will say a LOT and there will be some truths mixed in there worth examining). So I did a lot of listening.
Some of what H said he has stated before. And maybe I was only now able to 'hear it' and validate because I am in a more detached headspace?
Some of the key points that have stuck with me over the past few days:
H is deeply, deeply, deeply insecure. To a degree that I never recognized. Some childhood issues came up and then I saw them manifest into his current state within the same conversation. It was like watching a sci-fi movie. It made me feel deeply compassionate towards him. But at the same time also made me realize how much we both have been compensating for these insecurities over the years instead of really addressing them. Not that they were mine to address in the first place.
He questioned my fidelity in such a way that don't think this was a manifestation of his own guilt coming to play. Loyalty and integrity are huge values for me. The fact that he wove this narrative in his head about me over the years makes me so sad. For him, as a reflection of his insecurities, more than a 'how could he ever think that?!?' sort of way.
He can barely deal with his own emotions and those of the children, let alone mine.
We both have sheltered our narratives in a bubble of our own pain and suffering over the past year. And those narratives could not be more opposite. Detachment is helping me to re-write my own narrative with more self-compassion and compassion towards H. I don't know if he will ever be able to reconstruct his narrative. But I hope one day he will.
I left the conversation feeling hopeful. Not about my M or our R, but about the lessons I am learning about myself. Mainly, that I am capable of detaching. That I can listen to all of this and feel compassion instead of it instigating a defense mechanism in me.
In the few days since our conversation, we have worked on being friends. Warm hugs, kindness, chit chat. He opted to come to my house and sit side-by-side through parent-teacher zoom conversations instead of joining the zoom from his own home. We had lunch today at my house and sat alone and chatted throughout.
In a recent parenting challenge, he accused me of coming to the parenting table with my 'own pain and suffering about our situation' but I gently stated that those emotions weren't present in my life at the moment and I was truly focussed on our children. He heard this, not because I said it, but because I am living it right now.
He is wobbly and I can tell that this is uncomfortable for him. It's easier to vilify me when I am reacting from a place of hurt, instead of interacting from a place of detachment.
Interestingly, I feel we are further from any sort of reconciliation than closer to it. I sadly believe that maybe he is right: I am not the person for him in this life. Not that I wouldn't like to be. Not that I wouldn't do anything to have our family intact again.
I will sit with this for a while.
Hello Sage,
Well it's been eventful for you in my absence. You sound like you're doing well. You're navigating co-parenting really well. It does get easier with time and space, but co-parenting for everyone looks different. It's always valiant to continue to work towards your ideal version of that, but leave yourself room for it not always being so. ExH and I go through waves of doing well co-parenting and speaking about business only regarding our daughter. H's ex, baby mama, as we like to call her don't speak or cooperate at all unless there's a crisis, and in those instances I'm usually the one leading the parenting which always turns into a fight once we're through the crisis. Things change. People change and dealing with an unstable ex/co-parent is always an interesting ride.
Whoa boy, did you hit a nerve with me with the insecurity and childhood issues. ExH and H are deeply insecure people. I knew both were. ExH was at least aware he was insecure but didn't understand how it was manifesting in his relationship with me or anyone else. I spent so much time in that relationship being accused of being a WW that to this day I still don't fully regret cheating on him. I spent 7 years constantly having to prove my fidelity over and over and over. That no matter the holes on my end that led to my affair, I still 12 years later think a big aspect of my willingness to cross that line was that I spent 7 years being called horrible names related to my supposed infidelity. IMO what would really have been the difference if I actually was unfaithful and went for it. BTW the answer was nothing, nothing changed other than he actually started to realize I was not only capable of leaving him, but I could easily find someone who would treat me better.
And now present H oh boy, H's insecurity. H was living under the delusion he wasn't insecure until we started having R talks about the A when he was still prepared to leave me. The things he accused me of doing in the relationship obviously some truth was weaved in there and I owned and apologized for the things that were true, but the scenarios he created that never happened all surround the same thing. My intelligence and education. My H is wasted potential. He knows this. His family knows this. I know this. But he makes so much money doing what he does he's had no incentive to change paths. When he brought up imaginary scenarios about when I "belittled" him I flat out told him that those things never happened and even in a couple cases it was other people who were simply teasing him, but had nothing to do with what came out of my mouth. I then followed that up with, I'll own my mistakes, but I'm not apologizing for things that didn't happen or your insecurities. That's a you problem. As we're digging in now, he's acknowledging how that along with his mommy issues have kind of been hanging over our relationship and that he set me up to battle against things I didn't even know I had to contend with. He's accepted and is apologetic how hard he's made our entire relationship pitting me against his demons, expectations and other women (including his mom and daughter) from the get go.
To be honest looking back on all the WH stuff I've read through here and other places, that deep insecurity seems to be a really common thread. And it's a monster none of us have a chance of beating unless WHs are willing to work on themselves and own it.
You sound so clear headed and calm. While you sit in ponderance of your distance from R and that intact family idea, think long and hard about your peace, and how much growth you've had and are having. The thing that a learned about MR long before any of this is they only work if you're willing and able to grow together, even if that journey needs to be accomplished in a parallel fashion versus in tandem.
Thinking of you often xoxoxo
How was the party? Thinking of you!! xx M
Update on the party:
It went really well. Everyone had a really good time, it felt easy and comfortable. I found my emotional footing and led by example, of how I wanted to be treated and how I wanted others to treat H. And the best part was how absolutely delighted birthday child was with the whole thing. It was one tiny light in this whole Covid mess-- that birthday child got to be the center of attention on his actual birthday.
Some parents and the children from the party had planned an outing today and I asked H last night if he wanted to come along. He did and afterwards we spent some time as a family picking out child's promised gift (he got to pick it out instead of us giving it to him yesterday). We haven't been together like this in a long time and it felt easy and normal. We looked like a normal family for a minute-- at one point both of us were holding one side of our D's hands. It felt metaphorical: we may not be able to show love directly to each other, but we can show love and respect through these beautiful humans that were made through our love.
I don't feel triggered by H nearly as much anymore. We had one slip up a couple of days ago where H started to show some intense emotions that seemed disproportionate to what we were discussing. The old me would have taken his emotions personally and reacted from a place of hurt, as he was accusing me of something that I felt I shouldn't have to justify, but instead I was able to take a deep breath and tried to dig deeper to see where he was coming from. I don't know if I completely understood the root of his feelings, but I felt capable of defusing the situation and validating and we left the situation in a place where we both felt understood. That was a huge boost for me-- it showed me I am capable of taking a path that helps both of us feel good about the other.
Detachment for me has allowed me a lot of space to feel safe in my R with H, whatever that R looks like. I am no longer in the trees, and for the most part I can stay at 30,000' and see the forest. Will I vacillate and have ups and downs? No doubt. But each interaction is teaching me that I can do this. I am deeply invested in deconstructing my ego and trying to see things from a different narrative. At the end of the day if nothing changes in my R, I will have used this time to find the best me.
Wayfarer, it is so lovely to see you here. Thanks for your insight and wisdom, as usual.
To be honest looking back on all the WH stuff I've read through here and other places, that deep insecurity seems to be a really common thread. And it's a monster none of us have a chance of beating unless WHs are willing to work on themselves and own it.
I couldn't agree more. 14 years of trying to fill a cup that had leaks in it turns out to be a lesson in futility. Only the individual is capable of plugging those holes that were created in childhood; no one else can do it for us. Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. That, and trying to give my children the tools and resiliency to fix their own holes when it comes time for them to examine their cup of life.
xx
Sage, how lovely to read of birthday child's delight! Was there cake, too? Tell me about the cake.
I'm so glad others were able to follow your example of how to treat H, that everyone, including H, came together to make the day about the birthday child, as it should be.
14 years of trying to fill a cup that had leaks in it turns out to be a lesson in futility. Only the individual is capable of plugging those holes that were created in childhood; no one else can do it for us. Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. That, and trying to give my children the tools and resiliency to fix their own holes when it comes time for them to examine their cup of life.
Your writing about detachment is helping me see where I need to do more work. I think I subconsciously still feel responsible for some of my H's insecurities (as I continue to recognize how deep they were/are), for some of his anger. Wayfarer is right, and I love how clearly you are able to know what is your work to do and what is H's. This especially feels freeing, and is something I need to remind myself of every day: "Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time."
Hi Sage,
Wow, I am so proud and happy for you. Love, love, love that your child got to have a birthday focused all on him for one day... these silver linings to COVID. Part of me hopes that when my children are grown, their memories of COVID time will be less about all the things we didn't get to do or the pervasive fear and anxiety, and more about the special things we *did* get to do. My 10 year old planned an escape room for Halloween, and we did pinatas and scary movies and ate as much candy as we wanted. At the end of the night, I was cuddled on the couch with one daughter on each side, and D10 said to me Mommy, this was a great night. I really liked tonight. My heart was full. I was so worried they'd miss not seeing their friends, or dressing up and trick-or-treating... but they were champs.
A few things in your recent posts really stood out for me, especially as areas where I still need work and am inspired by your success:
The old me would have taken his emotions personally and reacted from a place of hurt, as he was accusing me of something that I felt I shouldn't have to justify, but instead I was able to take a deep breath and tried to dig deeper to see where he was coming from. I don't know if I completely understood the root of his feelings, but I felt capable of defusing the situation and validating and we left the situation in a place where we both felt understood.
I know that validation and detaching in order to have these kind of interactions is key to DBing, and I STILL have trouble with it. I think I did better when he was in the midst of the A than I do now. Reading how you took a deep breath and were able to restrain your emotions and react with your thinking mind... I am remembering how I had a mantra of "you only control you" in my head when H was saying these crazy things in R talks, and I could listen and nod and even ask deepening questions. It was like I had this hard shell that protected me from really feeling or taking personally what he said. Now I'm finding that that shell was just a shell. It wasn't bone-deep detachment. I'd love to hear more about your woo-woo land assistance to get you to where you are now.
Like Cardinal, I love this:
14 years of trying to fill a cup that had leaks in it turns out to be a lesson in futility. Only the individual is capable of plugging those holes that were created in childhood; no one else can do it for us. Stepping back and examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. That, and trying to give my children the tools and resiliency to fix their own holes when it comes time for them to examine their cup of life.
Examining the leaks in my own cup is all I am in charge of at this time. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.
H is deeply, deeply, deeply insecure. To a degree that I never recognized.
Mine too. And 99 out of 100 people who know him would laugh in my face if I said this to them. My MIL brought it up to me and she's totally right. Like you, I feel compassion for him here (I simply can't imagine what life would be like caring so GD much about what everyone else thinks of you) but it also doesn't excuse his behavior and the way he has treated me. So I am struggling a bit here to reconcile these two things-- empathy for him and -- I don't know what emotion is tied to the way he's treated me. Anger, I guess. Frustration. I think I need to do some loving-kindness meditation practice, maybe. How have you synthesized these two truths for yourself and ended up with feeling compassion? That he is broken AND he has treated you abysmally?
And, just FWIW, what you posted on AlisonUK's thread... that was me, too. My H also stopped trying to initiate without telling me to test me. (Though AP was in the picture then, and that has something to do with it). And for me it was also always the second or third day of vacation that I was able to actually relax and be interested again. It is so interesting to me to see so many parallels in our experiences.
(((Sage))) keep up the good work and send your zen vibes my way. I need it today.
May, thank you for these juicy thoughts today, I am so inspired by your words.
Some of my thoughts about this:
I know that validation and detaching in order to have these kind of interactions is key to DBing, and I STILL have trouble with it. I think I did better when he was in the midst of the A than I do now.
I totally agree with this. In some ways it came more naturally to try and 'fix' things when H and I were in limbo. I was so desperate to get to a different outcome, that I was pretty much willing to do anything. Of course, that is not the way this whole process works. DBing and validating comes from ACTION, not REACTION and my earlier attempts were truly a reaction.
Reading how you took a deep breath and were able to restrain your emotions and react with your thinking mind... I am remembering how I had a mantra of "you only control you" in my head when H was saying these crazy things in R talks, and I could listen and nod and even ask deepening questions. It was like I had this hard shell that protected me from really feeling or taking personally what he said. Now I'm finding that that shell was just a shell.
This too was me. I thought I was detached because I had built a wall protecting me from H's spew. But it wasn't detachment, I was simply deflecting and coping as best I could. Any weak spots in that wall and I was back to square one. Which would send me for a loop because I thought I had finally made it in terms of detaching and was so disappointed to discover that I was still in the same spot I started.
It wasn't bone-deep detachment. I'd love to hear more about your woo-woo land assistance to get you to where you are now.
I did so many things to try and solidify my detachment; to 'hurry it along'. I went through the stages of grief, staying in denial, bargaining and depression for the longest time. Then true rage and anger came along for a short spell. It scared me, the depths of my anger towards H. But it also flushed out the depression, which was really invigorating for me. And then all that settled into some sort of acceptance. Time was a huge factor here. As was recognizing my own value and rediscovering self-love. And I was finally able to hear to all those voices around me who kept whispering 'you are amazing, you are so loved, you will be fine'. And I knew I could make it.
As far as the woo woo stuff? I have a long-time family friend who is an incredible tarot card reader. She has helped me navigate some really big decisions and transitions since I was in my early teens. I had an amazing Vedic astrology reading. I even had an experience with a psychic. And all three said nearly the exact same thing to me: H has always felt unloveable (deep insecurities) and nothing I could do could fill his cup. That he is eschewing his spiritual, pre-destined path in life by leaving us and has no idea the depths of self-destruction and self-sabotage this instigates. But that it is truly not my role to fix him, he needs to do this on his own.
Those people validated my deeper intuition about all of this. So I was basically left with two choices: 1) keep trying what wasn't working; or 2) let go and refocus my energy back into me. Once I made that choice, the detachment came seemingly overnight (although re-reading this, I recognize that it was months and months in the making).
I was initially confused about detachment. 'Drop the rope! Detach!' are the rallying cries around here and I thought that meant getting to a space where my wall was big enough and strong enough to be impenetrable. But I have learned that detachment doesn't mean withdrawal or being aloof or emotionally absent or 'dropping' someone or even building a wall. It is about not letting someone have so much power over your feelings and emotions that you can't make a clear choice for yourself. I don't feel I need the walls anymore because I am my own castle, H is his and we can protect ourselves with boundaries if we need to. Detachment is more about the personal versus the interpersonal.
All of this is just my own interpretation and we will all have our own journeys.
H is deeply, deeply, deeply insecure. To a degree that I never recognized.
Mine too. And 99 out of 100 people who know him would laugh in my face if I said this to them. My MIL brought it up to me and she's totally right. Like you, I feel compassion for him here (I simply can't imagine what life would be like caring so GD much about what everyone else thinks of you) but it also doesn't excuse his behavior and the way he has treated me. So I am struggling a bit here to reconcile these two things-- empathy for him and -- I don't know what emotion is tied to the way he's treated me. Anger, I guess. Frustration. I think I need to do some loving-kindness meditation practice, maybe. How have you synthesized these two truths for yourself and ended up with feeling compassion? That he is broken AND he has treated you abysmally?
This is such an interesting thought, May. Thank you for this.
I think right now I feel compassion and empathy for the broken human in front of me and at the same time I do not condone or forgive his behavior (yet? Will I ever? Do I need to? Hmmm....). I have thus far compartmentalized the person from the behavior. It is my nature to quickly forgive and move on, so I feel I have to be really careful here as it would be easy for me to compartmentalize this forever. But at the same time, his behavior was so out of character, so extreme and destructive that it is easy to place it in a box as an anomaly. Or maybe it is not an anomaly, maybe this is the real him? I think I need some more time with this one.
Thanks for inspiring a journal essay! I am going to follow up on your thread with some specific thoughts on you and your situation.