Thread #1:
6 Months of MLCThread #2:
Learning how to stand, hope, and keep movingThread #3:
Searching for calm with shelter-in-place roommateThread #4:
Finding and living compassionate indifferenceQuick recap: BD June 2019; M 10 years, T 17. Roommates--H turning to monster mode again as he says he's filing and trying to tell me what I deserve in an agreement.
Thread name inspired by bttrfly--these are the core values I want to look to as I navigate this next part of the road. Right now I need to direct a lot of fierce compassion toward myself for engaging too much with H yesterday.
I am reading all of your advice--thank you so much, DnJ, kml, wooba, may, job. I have so many questions right now and am dying to get guidance from a L. In the meantime, being able to post questions here is helping me not go crazy. I didn't sleep well last night as it hit me again--I don't feel safe in my home. I still don't think there is a real threat of violence (though H is so erratic, I can't get myself to feel 100% safe in that regard either), but I am starting to recognize many of H's tactics as emotional abuse, even if he doesn't intend them that way. I am feeling some anger, but I think it's meant to protect me, to alert me that H is shaming me (for SSM to my face and telling me about how he tells all his friends about it, and they can't believe he was married to me, etc), gaslighting me, threatening me, telling me I am crazy and everyone thinks I am crazy... the list goes on. I can recognize now that this comes, at least partly, from his desire to protect himself from feeling shame or responsibility. He rages and then of course this morning he's acting calm again and engaging with me about unrelated things in a friendly manner, like nothing happened
D, you are right that I am definitely getting ramped up about L $ expectations. My IC mentioned something about tens of thousands of dollars, but I'm sure that would be if there was a court battle, which I just can't see happening in our situation, since there are no big assets. I am telling myself that I will know more once I meet with a L. Because for the sake of my mental and emotional health, I don't think I can do this without a L. For all of the reasons you describe in your own situation, D: a L knows what they're doing, a L can advise me on just how much H is blowing smoke, a L can reassure me that no matter what he threatens, X, Y, or Z is what the courts would decide.
I'm still confused about what would happen if I request through my response papers that H pay my legal fees. Can the court actually make him? And would he just pay it out of our savings anyway? I don't know if anyone here can answer this. And I imagine this of course would make him fly off the handle--how dare I expect him to pay for this--and could mean he's even less willing to negotiate the settlement. But if he is going to be angry no matter what, it doesn't make sense to let this fear of H not negotiating drive my decisions, does it? The more I am afraid of his anger, the more power I give him.
You cannot force a MLCer to do anything. Apply force, and they will come out swinging.
And you cannot reason with them. These are desperate people and desperate people do desperate things. You trying to reason with H will be seen as a threat and he will push back.
For right now, let your L gather the information. You’re going to need to at some point. You cannot trust H anyhow, he will try to hide stuff.
This is very clear to me. If I am acting rationally and not emotionally, and listening to the advice of everyone here, my parents, my friends, and my IC, I go to a L, and I let the L gather information. That is literally what everyone is telling me. I fear H's reaction. I fear the cost. But that can't stop me from acting. And H does come out swinging when I suggest or try to reason with him. I have suggested mediation so many times now, and clearly that is not working. Maybe at some point he will suggest it. Last week my IC suggested saying, H, I will either need a L or mediation. Those are my terms. You choose. But it doesn't seem like that will work either with someone like H, does it?
It’s tough not to blow up in face of all that smugness. Remember play the long game, stay indifferent.
Of course I was a mess and just kept drinking my STFU smoothie. I listened to my L and followed his advice. I suspect he knew much better than I what he was doing. Ha, that’s a dumb statement - of course he knows better. He’s a lawyer!
Leverage. To negotiate you need to know what the other wants. MLCers drop lots of clues, listen carefully.
I tried to stay indifferent in the face of the various "deals" he was throwing out, eg if I give him the house, I can have the cats. I didn't respond to that other than to say I am on the lease and have as much entitlement to the house as he does. He knows I want to stay here because I stated my intention after he said he was moving out. That or who knows what (I mean, just asking him for financial docs was enough to set him off) apparently caused him to swing wildly back to I don't deserve the house and should be the one to MO.
I did pick up on the fact that the only time H seemed to admit wrong and appear contrite was when he admitted to taking all of the savings money without telling me. I'm hoping this could give me leverage, as I could consider overlooking that entirely.
I know he is offended that I would try to take any portion of the pension he worked so hard for, while I was on a ten-year vacation as he sees it now. But I am very hesitant to give up on that, as my future financial security is very important, as important as keeping myself afloat in the present while I am applying for jobs.
Oh, and job or others: about the giftcards--I've thought of that, but now am reluctant to spend any money from our joint checking account, as I don't know what I'm entitled to and what I'm not, and H will definitely notice if I start using my debit card for purchases.
Please send like ten million STFU smoothies my way. I think I'll need a constant supply. And Gerda, yell louder in my ear just to say, "I'm sorry you feel that way."
Well, in the days since the terrible conversation, I have mainly been filled with more and more regret for engaging. I feel like I did so well for the last year, never pushing back against his narrative, not taking the bait, and I undid all that work with that convo. I guaranteed H will feel even more justified by pointlessly trying to share my feelings with him, by trying to y perspective of the SSM even as he was attacking me for it. At one point he again called me ungrateful for all he did for me during our M and said he would continue to sacrifice himself for his new partner, for whoever he was with, would do everything for them, because that is love. I see this as one of the big contributors to BD--he did this for me at the expense of his own needs until he seethed with more and more resentment. In our ill-fated convo I replied that I believed that we shouldn't rely on others for our own happiness, that we should make ourselves happy. See how I was trying to have a rational conversation with totally irrational H after he threatened me? I can't believe I said this and more to him. I just shake my head now.
I really, really wanted to look back on this time and have no regrets, and now I have this one, which feels big to me. And it's leading right into the D process. Has anyone else had a big slip-up like this? I don't regret it because I think walking away without comment would have changed H's mind or anything like that, but I do think it cemented his ugly, ugly view of me and our M. I'm trying not to beat myself up over it, but I am very disappointed in myself because I can no longer say I walked away without trying to influence H or challenge his views.
I'm waiting to hear back from a L I really want and have a consult with another next week. It felt so strange to call and say H was threatening me--I feel like I'm making it up or exaggerating for effect, even when I know I'm not--like I still want to make excuses for his unacceptable behavior as everyone around me is telling me this is emotional abuse. I slip and start doubting my own experience or our M and of old H vs. new H. If I wouldn't have stuck around for his blamefest, I would not have been spiraling in self-doubt now either.
When I met with IC on Sunday, she said, "Go get a L. Don't wait. Call today. He is not rational and he is not going to negotiate with you." So of course you all are on the same page. She reassured me that there is nothing I could have done or could do to change this, that H is projecting so much of his entire childhood and adulthood with his mom onto me, and the anger isn't just because of our M. That he hates himself for never being able to speak up, and he's painting himself as helpless in our M just as he has felt helpless in not being able to say no to taking care of his mom and her emotions. He's turning shame into blame. Childhood issues brought into adulthood... well, that is what they say about MLC. She also said, "No matter what you do, he's going to hate you. That's just where he is right now. It's going to be hard, but you have to accept it." This is obvious to me, but still hard to accept.
I've read a lot about spewing here and know it's totally the norm, but H's spewing feels like it's on a different level. It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange? It scares me because I never imagined him capable of such extreme feelings toward me (or anyone, really) in all the time I've known him, and it's unsettling to think he could turn out this way, that I married someone who was capable of this. It like he's filled with so much resentment, he's made it so he'll never be able to recover a good memory from our time together. Reconciliation or forgiveness on his part seems not just unlikely but impossible, and he was so venomous that I can't imagine feeling safe with him again anyway. I'm okay with feeling that way at the moment. I don't want that kind of venom in my life. I opened myself up to it for too long because I guess some part of me thought I could still communicate with him, and I've lost my center momentarily. I need to somehow flush that venom out of my system--awful things he said during the convo echo like they did after BD.
I've read a lot about spewing here and know it's totally the norm, but H's spewing feels like it's on a different level. It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange? It scares me because I never imagined him capable of such extreme feelings toward me (or anyone, really) in all the time I've known him, and it's unsettling to think he could turn out this way, that I married someone who was capable of this. It like he's filled with so much resentment, he's made it so he'll never be able to recover a good memory from our time together. Reconciliation or forgiveness on his part seems not just unlikely but impossible, and he was so venomous that I can't imagine feeling safe with him again anyway. I'm okay with feeling that way at the moment. I don't want that kind of venom in my life. I opened myself up to it for too long because I guess some part of me thought I could still communicate with him, and I've lost my center momentarily. I need to somehow flush that venom out of my system--awful things he said during the convo echo like they did after BD.
In my exh's subconscious I represent every failure of his mother and most especially his father, for whom he has nothing but hatred and contempt. When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
Would he have brief moments of clarity? YES.
BUT -- and this is crucial for you to understand - Brief moments of clarity do not change the outcome.
I've come to understand that my exh had to do all these terrible things, and convince himself I was someone I was not so he could leave.
As we all know now, he married the woman I suspect was his affair partner. He's had a direct impact on destroying my son's psyche, and I will be very brutally honest here, Cardinal, he d@mned near destroyed me. I am 5 years and almost 4 months post BD. I am only know realizing the true extent of the gaslighting, verbal, and financial abuse I suffered at his hands from the start of his MLC through BD and divorce. It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I was an emotionally and financially abused wife. It's a heavy admission to make. I allowed it to happen because I thought it was the only way to save my marriage, because I was in so deep I didn't really understand what was happening at the time, and had no idea how to stop any of it.
Do not make the same mistakes. Get a lawyer ASAP. Ask if you should drain the joint account, put it in your name only for safe keeping. Seriously. Protect yourself at all costs. This marriage is dead. Whatever may come in a future relationship with your husband has yet to be decided and will have to be brand new. Read that again. I don't know if that will help you. I'm sure it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth, as I see it. You are solely responsible for your own financial wellbeing as of when he BD'd.
Take care of yourself financially and legally and then you can get the poison out of your etheric body ... but you need the protection to be in place first, imho.
You're not alone; we are here for you.
[quote=cardinal]
In my exh's subconscious I represent every failure of his mother and most especially his father, for whom he has nothing but hatred and contempt. When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
Would he have brief moments of clarity? YES.
BUT -- and this is crucial for you to understand - Brief moments of clarity do not change the outcome.
I've come to understand that my exh had to do all these terrible things, and convince himself I was someone I was not so he could leave.
As we all know now, he married the woman I suspect was his affair partner. He's had a direct impact on destroying my son's psyche, and I will be very brutally honest here, Cardinal, he d@mned near destroyed me. I am 5 years and almost 4 months post BD. I am only know realizing the true extent of the gaslighting, verbal, and financial abuse I suffered at his hands from the start of his MLC through BD and divorce. It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I was an emotionally and financially abused wife. It's a heavy admission to make. I allowed it to happen because I thought it was the only way to save my marriage, because I was in so deep I didn't really understand what was happening at the time, and had no idea how to stop any of it.
Do not make the same mistakes. Get a lawyer ASAP. Ask if you should drain the joint account, put it in your name only for safe keeping. Seriously. Protect yourself at all costs. This marriage is dead. Whatever may come in a future relationship with your husband has yet to be decided and will have to be brand new. Read that again. I don't know if that will help you. I'm sure it's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth, as I see it. You are solely responsible for your own financial wellbeing as of when he BD'd.
I wasn't sure if I was reading a post I wrote and forgot I wrote. In other words, exactly the same, line for line, word for word, as bttrfly.
In fact I didn't even know that exact-same with bttrfly until this month and I have been posting since 2014.
Learn from us.
I'd only change that last line to
You are solely responsible for your own financial well being from day one. My H was terrible with money from our first date. He was never a good provider. I just didn't think it mattered, so I set myself up for all the years of financial irresponsibility and, later, the financial abuse. Now I am past the two-year mark of his divorce and he is still trying to destroy me, no end in sight. Because I didn't listen to people on these boards.
Cry as much as you want. But set aside two hours a day to be razor sharp, crystal clear. Go through all the money. Take half of it or more. If he asks, tell him to talk to your lawyer. If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
When you go to the grocery store or any store, purchase a gift card. I was advised many years ago to take half out of the savings/checking accounts and move the funds to another account or put the funds into gift cards. The sooner you can speak to a lawyer and find out what you are entitled to, the better...but for now, take some of the money out of the account...after all, you are still married and should be able to withdraw some of it.
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
You now must protect yourself at all costs because he's not going to give a fig as to how you will survive and manage once he's out the door. This is a business deal whereby a partner has walked away from his responsibility to you and to the marriage.
Learn from us.
Cry as much as you want. But set aside two hours a day to be razor sharp, crystal clear. Go through all the money. Take half of it or more. If he asks, tell him to talk to your lawyer. If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
I would change this to say give yourself two hours only to cry, because you need the rest of the time and energy to protect yourself.
When you go to the grocery store or any store, purchase a gift card. I was advised many years ago to take half out of the savings/checking accounts and move the funds to another account or put the funds into gift cards. The sooner you can speak to a lawyer and find out what you are entitled to, the better...but for now, take some of the money out of the account...after all, you are still married and should be able to withdraw some of it.
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
You now must protect yourself at all costs because he's not going to give a fig as to how you will survive and manage once he's out the door. This is a business deal whereby a partner has walked away from his responsibility to you and to the marriage.
I would get a screen grab of the balance on the specific date/time, then move half to place where he cannot get it - gift card, safe deposit box, whatever ...
you know, even four years ago I wouldn't have believed you if you told me I'd feel this way. experience is a fierce teacher.
Hi, Gerda, job, and bttrfly. Thanks so much for being here with me. I'm not fighting against the outcome, and I am no longer crying--I was a mess, privately, for a couple of days after the last big spewing, and since then I've returned to survival mode, am still applying for jobs and making notes to ask a L. I made a wonderful cake for my birthday tomorrow even though I don't have much of an appetite! I do feel that I'm not seeing clearly, though. Gerda, like you wrote earlier, I think it will be impossible while H is still here. I know I've gotten pulled into his story, and I keep seeing things from his perspective and feeling sorry for him and taking on too much guilt. I'm relying on friends (here and IRL) and IC to give me reality checks often. It's dizzying, questioning the last big chunk of my life, trying to hold onto my own experience of M while acknowledging his, trying to identify what H's resentment is coloring and what it isn't, where I could have done better vs. what had/has nothing to do with me. I just found myself thinking poor H--I can see, from his perspective, he was in a terrible M for 10 years and he finally wants to leave, but now he has to pay $ for it, and he might have to move, and, well, there are all of these consequences that feel like punishments to him. He feels like he's being punished by me just for realizing he was deeply unhappy. I get that. And then I have to ask myself: Am I applying these consequences as punishments? Do I want to punish H? I don't think so. I just want to survive. It feels more like he is angry and needs to punish someone, so he turns to me.
When he looked at me, he never saw me ... just the narrative he'd created in his own addled brain.
That is it exactly. He doesn't see me anymore and I don't think he has for most of the last year. It's a strange feeling to feel that gaze on you, to feel like you are becoming the narrative. I don't see H anymore when I look at him, either, though. He's a doppelganger filled with hurt and anger.
It is only by being triggered in the ways I am being triggered these days, and most especially having 5 years of not living with my exh under my belt, that I can recognize any of it.
I am sorry for the pain you've gone through, bttrfly. This reminds me of what Gerda said too--I think it can be nearly impossible to see things for what they are during this post-BD time. The only thing his spewing has made me see clearly is that I need a L. Like DnJ wrote earlier too, I need someone who can see our financial situation clearly and guide me from a place of reason and not residual emotion.
If it bugs you to say that w/out explanation, tell him that your finances are separate from your feelings about the marriage, and you have to protect your half. Then smile cheerfully and leave the room. Remember that ad, "Never let 'em see you sweat"? Do that.
As Gerda pointed out, just smile and whatever you do, do not let him sweat. You have absolutely nothing to fear but fear itself.
Gerda and job, I really appreciate all of your concrete examples and reminders. I have learned so much from everyone here--yet I still walked into pointless convo with H! I totally knew better. I want no more repeats of that.
There's not a ton of money in our joint checking at the moment because of our tax bill and H paying his credit card. I did pay for my IC from it, even though I was, yep, a bit afraid H would spew. I know I shouldn't let fear stop me. I'll feel more comfortable and brave taking more steps with finances as soon as a L advises me. This is where I really need a L to take control, since I don't have access to the savings. Though I am still not at peace with the idea of being even more villainous in H's eyes, I know a L will actually help me feel way more empowered and protected in the long run.
So grateful to have all of you strong women here with me!
Editing last post to say, I think I was wrong to say H hasn't seen me as anything but his narrative for the past year. I think there have been moments when he saw me, and that's what kept me thinking I could open up H and find the old H to talk to, if only briefly, if only I could find the right combination. I was wrong--he's gone until/if H chooses to rebuild himself, and anyway, those moments, as you say, bttrfly, don't change the outcome. Only H could change that, not me.
And I wanted to share that I came across the UC San Diego Center for Mindfulness website today, and they have some free live mindfulness and compassion sessions via Zoom this week--I did one tonight on finding a place of peace and stillness. They also have many recorded resources that look great.
Hello cardinal
You are getting awesome advice from some very wise gals.
...yet I still walked into pointless convo with H!
We’ve all done that.
We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
It feels like the deepest hatred and disrespect. Is this strange?
Not strange at all.
Our once loving spouse flips 180 degrees and becomes the opposite. And they get angrier and angrier at us. The venom they spew at us is bewildering.
The MLCer needs to disrespect us. Needs to see us as small, little, unworthy - it allows them to feed their fiction. Pay it no attention and utilize boundaries. You don’t deserve to be disrespected. You don’t allow it.
The poison and venom does get in - I know. It takes some time to transmute the poison. It will happen, stay better not bitter.
Compassionate indifference.
Your indifference towards H makes his attacks meaningless. He cannot emotional hurt you. Boundary his disrespectful behaviour and remain indifferent to his spewing. Keep the business side business and move you forward with compassion.
You got this.
D
We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
Thank you for saying this, D. This is where the fierce compassion for myself should come in, but all the values I’ve listed as my thread title feel far away right now. I regret exposing myself to more hurt. I wasn’t indifferent enough to avoid internalizing the awful things he was saying. I’ve been reading more about divorcing and/or cheating spouses rewriting history to remind myself it is a normal thing, and not about me. I read that over and over, and yet... since there is
some truth to what he is saying—as I’ve worked the last year to recognize my part in SSM and not put all that responsibility on him (as he is attempting to do to me)—it is more difficult for me to stand back and feel confident in what I can take responsibility for and what I can let go. I know, rationally, the blame and projection is not about me, but it’s like I have to keep convincing/reminding myself of that every five minutes, fighting my impulse to doubt.
I didn’t quite complete my compassionate indifference training, apparently.
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t?
I admire yours and others’ abilities to see their M without rosy or dark glasses, as you write in your post. Maybe it is just that I am too close to be able to find a middle ground at this time, as I think Gerda and bttrfly are suggesting, and it’s only causing me pain to try to sort out what was love and what was not.
To make it worse, mutual friend is also doing her own rewriting alongside me, looking for flags that she should have noticed in our M but didn’t.
How do I find my strength again in my own beliefs? How do I find the strength and self-confidence to not be swayed by the attacks that will come as we move toward negotiating? Through setting boundaries and not listening to another attack he tries to launch, through indifference. But compassionate indifference comes from knowing my own self-worth and not buying into his narrative of me or the M, and I’m struggling with that. Why? I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
Does that make sense? That is the effect of the last, great spewing, and that has had a domino effect. At the same time, I recognize that if he really was that unhappy, why did he marry me after 7 years, and then 9 more years after that come to terms with his extreme unhappiness?
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Yesterday was my birthday. It was fine. I was less torn up than last year, which was a month out from BD. H still made me a cake last year, I suppose because he was feeling a bit of guilt. Even after MIL reached out in February to say she would always love me and we should talk soon, she did not wish me a happy birthday. I haven’t heard from her since that February text.. I of course think H has convinced her of how awful I am too. I remind myself that I control me only. I don’t control what anyone else believes or says. Still, it stings.
Still plenty of birthday cake here—a big New York cheesecake. Everyone is welcome to a slice!
Hello cardinal
It’s normal to cycle through these emotions and wonder if our MLCer was ever who they were. It’s normal to question our marriage, to ensure we see with clarity. You are questioning H’s inner self, when even he doesn’t know right now.
But how do you know? How does one believe?
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Ask yourself this:
Was
I happy in my marriage?
Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.
I would say your answer would be yes.
Own you part of the SSM, not all - H has a part in that too. And learn from it. No one is perfect and everyday we have the opportunity to gain. Become better not bitter.
And realize you were happy. You lived a happy life. Don’t unwittingly rewrite to suit H’s spew.
I was happily married. XW and I were together 30+ years. She was happy too. Then her buried past came calling.
You are challenging your memory and belief of the past. 16 years doesn’t just happen. I know it feels different right now for you. Believe me, I know. Emotions are fleeting.
Was I happy?
Believe it.
Will I be happy again? YES!
Believe it.
And Happy Birthday cardinal.
D
We all try taking sense into our now internally unrecognizable spouse. It’s ok. Don’t beat yourself up. And don’t fret over it.
I will tell you something, those conversations aren’t pointless. You learn from them. You needed to have that conversation to ensure you tried everything. It’s just a step along the path. No big deal.
Thank you for saying this, D. This is where the fierce compassion for myself should come in, but all the values I’ve listed as my thread title feel far away right now.
Do not forget they are the goal, the end game. You're far from the end here, doll - just keep your eye on those values as the prize.
I regret exposing myself to more hurt. I wasn’t indifferent enough to avoid internalizing the awful things he was saying. I’ve been reading more about divorcing and/or cheating spouses rewriting history to remind myself it is a normal thing, and not about me. I read that over and over, and yet... since there is some truth to what he is saying—as I’ve worked the last year to recognize my part in SSM and not put all that responsibility on him (as he is attempting to do to me)—it is more difficult for me to stand back and feel confident in what I can take responsibility for and what I can let go. I know, rationally, the blame and projection is not about me, but it’s like I have to keep convincing/reminding myself of that every five minutes, fighting my impulse to doubt.
Of course there is a grain of truth in every lie, pretty much, right? Don't let the gaslighting become reality. It's not.
Two people are married, two people are responsible for their parts in the marriage, and whatever downward turn it takes ... but keep to your side of the street. Own what's really yours.
I didn’t quite complete my compassionate indifference training, apparently.
No. You haven't. It's a process.
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. [/quote[]
Yes, this is normal and healthy, IMHO
[quote=cardinal] I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t?
Oh boy, yeah I get it, but please learn from my experience - this is wasted energy. You will never ever know the answer.
Want to know something else? Your H doesn't know the answer any more than you do. Chew on that for a while.
I admire yours and others’ abilities to see their M without rosy or dark glasses, as you write in your post. Maybe it is just that I am too close to be able to find a middle ground at this time, as I think Gerda and bttrfly are suggesting, and it’s only causing me pain to try to sort out what was love and what was not.
We are all several years out of the muck and mire, and not living with the daily onslaught of BS and Spew, unlike you who are in the thick of it.
To make it worse, mutual friend is also doing her own rewriting alongside me, looking for flags that she should have noticed in our M but didn’t.
She needs to stop that.
How do I find my strength again in my own beliefs?
No idea; I'm still struggling with the existential aspects of divorce.
How do I find the strength and self-confidence to not be swayed by the attacks that will come as we move toward negotiating? Through setting boundaries and not listening to another attack he tries to launch, through indifference. But compassionate indifference comes from knowing my own self-worth and not buying into his narrative of me or the M, and I’m struggling with that. Why? I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
Grieve old H.
New H is the dude you're dealing with.
Do not forget that.
Act accordingly.
Does that make sense? That is the effect of the last, great spewing, and that has had a domino effect. At the same time, I recognize that if he really was that unhappy, why did he marry me after 7 years, and then 9 more years after that come to terms with his extreme unhappiness?
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
I wish there was a reset button to get me back on track.
Yesterday was my birthday. It was fine. I was less torn up than last year, which was a month out from BD. H still made me a cake last year, I suppose because he was feeling a bit of guilt. Even after MIL reached out in February to say she would always love me and we should talk soon, she did not wish me a happy birthday. I haven’t heard from her since that February text.. I of course think H has convinced her of how awful I am too. I remind myself that I control me only. I don’t control what anyone else believes or says. Still, it stings.
Still plenty of birthday cake here—a big New York cheesecake. Everyone is welcome to a slice!
Happy birthday!
Focus on what you have.
Let the other (hurtful) stuff be. Acknowledge it, but don't dwell on it.
This all says far more about them than you or your relationship to them.
I am trying not to rewrite our history to match his rewriting, but I am grieving what I thought the M was. I am asking whether he was pretending to be happy at point X or Y—how many of my memories are based on the assumption that H was showing me his true self when he wasn’t??.... I think his arguing that he was never happy (and the fact that the bits he uses as evidence are sometimes founded in reality) has messed with my ability to separate old H from new H. In other words, I thought I had done that, but now I feel instead like I was mistaken. This new H is who he was all along, this miserable, unsatisfied H; he simply couldn’t admit it to himself or me. So I was caught in a lie if the M without knowing it until now.
I’m caught in this circle where nothing makes sense—not even that he must have been happy, or he wouldn’t have endured for so long. Not even that makes sense.
You’re right, maybe there is no new H or old H. Maybe he’s always been this way but has not been truthful. I wonder sometimes about my H too. This new him must have already existed, but now it’s probably just magnified. Whatever the case is, let it go. Keep the good memories, as for the rest - let it go. Acknowledge, accept, let it go. It is pointless. What is a true self anyway? I believe we are all made of different pieces, possibly even conflicting pieces...we all have struggles within us. But sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other side wins. My conclusion about my H is that he is flawed, and weak. He claims to be a man of principles, but he fails again and again by his own principles. Nothing makes sense. Don’t try to make sense of anything related to your H. It just doesn’t work.
Here’s something from my book of quotes, may be helpful when you’re dealing with H on a daily basis:
“If you feel irritated, they want attention.
If you feel angry/hurt, they want revenge.
If you feel powerless, they are feeling powerless.
If you feel insufficient, they feel insufficient.”
Happy belated birthday!!!
Hi Cardinal!
I’ve finally been able to catch up on your thread. I honestly don’t even know what to say ...but wanted to offer my support to let you know that once again I could have written word for word everything you have, right down to what you are struggling with. My hiatus was due to work and life taking over but also truthfully because my mind has been stuck in a swirling vortex. I’ve been facing, questioning and reliving so many things. I too have been stuck on the following (which I will post on my own site for the record):
-reconciling with the truthful elements of what he spews and taking TOO MUCH responsibility for it ending our M
-obsessing over where the man I married went
-trying to stop speculating as to why his family and a couple friends specifically have fallen away since March; what is he telling them?
-why he is so focused on selling the house when FA/ separation has not been presented yet
And to sum it all up, the big one is how much longer can I live with him if I don’t get back to letting go and dropping the rope fully. Everything affects me so much again.
The one big thing I do want to offer is that I was really hesitant and against getting a L in the beginning but he forced my hand by getting one right away. Taking everyone’s advice from here to get one is the best thing I did.
I don’t know how L works there but I wanted to let you know that you only pay for what they do.....so in other words I consulted one, but then didn’t go back until I did all of my own leg work with my finances. The less they do the less you get charged obviously....so because H is moving backwards with this process all my info has just been sitting waiting for him to take the lead....Don’t get me wrong it still [censored] and I’m passed off about the $ part of it daily BUT I think as Dnj and others have said it’s business and the number one business here is protecting yourself.
Doesn’t matter that you didn’t have a job as lucrative as his, I don’t believe it matters that’s the cars are in his name ...esp if you sold yours and took over one....it’s all marital assets and should be spilt 50/50. A L will (should) arm you with info and I can speak from experience it takes one stress off the head knowing a professional is looking out for your best interests $. I’m freshly on this part and though the laws may differ slightly, feel free to ask me anything and if I can offer anything I’d love to.
Also MOST importantly, hope you had an awesome (belated) happy Birthday and I would have loved to enjoy a piece of that cheesecake with you!!!!
Just wanted to let you know that someone is travelling the same path with you. Big ((((hugs)))) you’re doing well!
Kindly
P.s thank you to all of the contributors here ...I may not write a lot on other people’s sites but I read a lot.I’ve actually written down some of the wise words offered that I find super helpful. Your advice is invaluable.
Thank you for the birthday wishes!
I had several good days of feeling better, more meditation, more focus on the teaching I'll be doing in the fall, and those days happened to be the ones where H works out of the house. No surprise there--it's so much easier to relax and enjoy myself knowing he won't be back any time soon. It gives me hope that one day I'll be alone in this house finally and living my life--sure, probably with some grief to work through over the reality of H being gone, but in an environment that is peaceful and safe.
I did also get stuck here, though:
Ask yourself this:
Was I happy in my marriage?
Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.
Just like all the reading I did after BD on MLC, I've been driven to read more about borderline personality disorder, passive aggression, etc. I felt some validation in recognizing that maybe the circular arguments that have occurred over the last (at least) half of our M were at least in part due to H's coping mechanisms, passive aggression, avoidance, distorted self-image, and were not reccuring because
I couldn't figure out how to communicate with him, but because nothing I could have done/said would have made sense to him or would have gotten through to him. When any argument ends with him saying I don't understand him and I'm making him the bad guy, how do you get out of that? Let me tell you, defensiveness, justifying, explaining, reassuring--none of that worked. I felt helpless and terrible during these conversations, powerless to break the pattern. And I'm coming to understand that H would have had to have wanted to break the pattern too, to look at what was going on internally with him, and that's another thing I couldn't have forced him to do if he didn't want to.
It's clear now H was controlling in some ways, not sharing financial info with me, for example. Sometimes H's anger made me angry, and then it scared me, and I would imagine, for example, my mom witnessing the way he reacted when he got angry, and I would know she wouldn't approve of the words he was using toward me.
Was I happy?
I let some of his behavior go, because I loved him, and I tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I trusted that if he didn't love me, he wouldn't tell me he did. I trusted that if he was so unhappy with the SSM, he would tell me, and he would want to work together to make changes.
I knew he pushed emotions down, but that wasn't and isn't my responsibility.
Was I happy?
That wasn't the entirety of our 17 years together and really only started happening for maybe the last half. I don't want to rewrite all of our history to focus only on these moments.
I remembered H's mom's breakdown a few years ago, her revealing that she'd struggled with depression and anxiety all her life, something that H didn't know. She sat at our kitchen table and told us that we didn't love her and didn't really want her here visiting.
Last week, H and I sat at that same table and he told me I had never loved him, never really wanted a relationship with him.
I remembered H's dad had been in AA for years, and though H only has happy memories of his childhood, there's a lot I don't know and he doesn't remember about what his mom's R with his dad was like before they divorced.
Oh boy, yeah I get it, but please learn from my experience - this is wasted energy. You will never ever know the answer.
Want to know something else? Your H doesn't know the answer any more than you do. Chew on that for a while.
Yes. I read too much, until the overlap between MLC and personality disorders and learned behaviors gave me a headache. I think I'm still trying to know what my side of the street is, still struggling to forgive myself for things I could have done differently, still working to accept that I will never know the answer, because there is no singular answer. This is my coping mechanism, I guess--I just need to research as if I'm getting a degree in psychology, and all will eventually make sense!
Maybe two things I can be sure of: there were/are childhood issues at play for H in addition to whatever else, whatever good and imperfect aspects there were to our M, and I can't work through any of these issues for him. I never could. I want him to come out of this a healthier person eventually, and that is entirely up to him.
The other thing: Was I happy? Maybe I'm too far in this mess to trust my answer right now. Did I love him? I can answer that wholeheartedly: Yes.
Keep the good memories, as for the rest - let it go.
Had a consult with a different lawyer today—not the one I met with months ago. It left me feeling worse, honestly. The main thing I am worried about is staying in the rental house, as I am in a much more financially precarious situation than H and our rent hasn’t risen in years so is much lower than the current market, not to mention leaving would mean leaving our chickens and the neighborhood cats I care for. L said the court won’t make a decision or ask either party to leave the house, so it will be up to us to come to an agreement. He’s suggested something I might be able to bargain with, but H is so set on staying here, I don’t know if that would even help. L seemed to think even though an old car was given to both of us by H’s mom it could be considered inheritance and therefore his separate property, so that could be an issue.
I want someone to help me stay in this house so I can stay in this state as I transition to new career, as I have connections here to help me get started in that. I just need more time to keep applying, for more jobs to open up. If a L can’t help me with that big issue...? 5k retainer just to start. I could petition court for H to pay L fees and perhaps get some reimbursed later, but, again, if the law can’t help me stay in my home, I’m even more discouraged at the prospect of giving so much money we don’t have to a L, escalating things with H and maybe making him even less willing to negotiate.
I feel like you all understand why mediation sounds good but might be a lost cause if H has refused it many times. You understand why I can’t just work things out with H. You understand what I’m up against, and I don’t know if an hour consult with a L made it clear how irrational my H is being, though the L did say it sounds like he has a fantasy idea of D in which he doesn’t have to give me anything.
The L I really wanted can still do mediation with us but can’t represent either one of us as L, because we both consulted with her to get basic info early on. I have a second consult with a L I consulted with a few months ago next week, so I guess I’ll see if I get a different feeling from meeting with her.
Basically, I feel there is no end in sight. H won’t leave, and I will be living here with him indefinitely, while nothing moves forward with D (assuming he actually files this time).
Kindly, I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.
Well bear in mind H cannot evict you so long as you keep your side of the street clean. So if you stay put he has no choice other than to stay living there with you or to move out himself. If he has an OW she will probably get tired of him living with his wife eventually.
HOWEVER it's possible if you don't have any documented income your landlord might not consider you a qualified tenant on your own, so I would really try to hustle to get an income going (or if your landlord is someone you are really tight with personally, you might let them in on what's happening - not now, but near the end - if you think they would be sympathetic to your plight. )
The car most likely depends on whose name is on the title - if it's only in his name, it's not probably something you can claim. If both your names are on it then it wouldn't be protected as an inheritance. (Note - I'm not a lawyer so check this with any lawyer you talk to).
Mediation only works if both parties can be reasonable - if he's not it may be wasted money. The ay he is bullying you, I doubt mediation would work with him.
And as for understanding the past? We're not talking about rewriting history, but maybe taking off the rose-colored glasses and realizing the truth of who your husband was and is. He controlled the finances in a way that benefits him in the divorce and that was not a true partnership. He treated you in ways you recognize your mother would have considered abusive.
There's a lot that's abusive about the way he treated you, even if it wasn't physically abusive. It's important for you to recognize that so you don't fall into another abusive relationship in the future.
Kindly, I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.
Hiya, I’m so sorry that Your meeting was not empowering or fully on your side with regards to the house and car. Some of what they said may be the facts but it took me 3 consultations before I found someone who I liked...unfortunately that didn’t mean “what I wanted to hear”. Not for a second am I suggesting that that is what you are doing but I think it’s good to remember (and I have to tell myself this too) that any knowledge is empowering because it gives you educated choices and a more guided path. I spent the first half a year hiding from not wanting to hear that I can’t afford to stay in my house. I then decided that doesn’t matter right now ...that’s a future problem that can’t be figured out now, but I can save like crazy, pick up extra jobs and start pursuing the option of getting a room mate. It was time for me to get creative IF I want to even try and stay here....
Not to mention how much they change their minds ...H may be saying he’s staying cause he knows it’s a good button to push with you...be large and in charge! This home is as much yours as it is his right now! NOBODY puts baby in a corner! (Sorry couldn’t resist)
I don’t fully believe my L understands the bullying and abusive dynamic either but she follows my wishes and gives good legal advice.
Ie: I told her this was going to be a slow moving train....those words left my mouth based on wisdom from this site but I had no idea at the time just how slow ...and I’m still only a year in. She sits and waits for H or H’s L to make a move and is baffled when weeks and weeks go by. His L has even set 3 deadlines now over 5 months to exchange disclosure...still hasn’t happened!! I believe that once a L starts working with you they will begin to see just from H’s behaviours. Document everything...every attack, every threatening situation...even if nothing can be done about it better to have everything at your finger tips. Also empower yourself by maybe picking up a night shift somewhere ...it’ll get you out of the house more and extra income ...(I know easier said than done right now...but you never know)
Definitely go for another consult, I found I was really able to build a better understanding of what he could and couldn’t do after multiple consults. Thinking of you and hope this next one feels a little better.
((((Hugs)))
Hello cardinal
Something I had found myself to be doing back during my separation - trying to ensure my L understood how irrational XW is.
Lawyers have seen all kinds of clients, both beside and across the table from them. The L is a professional who is meant to remain dispassionate and therefore not get wrapped up in how irrational our spouse is being. The law isn’t swayed, or changes, because someone is behaving irrationally. This is a business deal. Emotions stay at the door.
I would hazard that given H’s current propensity for being unreasonable, mediation is probably more a waste of money and not worth the risk.
L said the court won’t make a decision or ask either party to leave the house, so it will be up to us to come to an agreement.
Coming to an agreement sounds unlikely from what you have said regarding H’s behaviour. However, if he really wants to stay that is advantage to you for negotiating.
...rent hasn’t risen in years so is much lower than the current market, not to mention leaving would mean leaving our chickens and the neighborhood cats I care for.
Yes, you have grown accustom to your home and neighbourhood. You need not leave. And H doesn’t have to. Is there an amount you would need or would be willing to leave for? Just food for thought.
Basically, I feel there is no end in sight. H won’t leave, and I will be living here with him indefinitely, while nothing moves forward with D (assuming he actually files this time).
Feel - I will discuss below.
Feelings aside for the moment, a recommended position when considering these business ideas. You are still leaving the heavy lifting to H? These meetings are only gathering information and only preparing if H gets a divorce petition in order?
You need not look so far ahead as indefinite. How is your financial position currently? Do you need protection? Do you think things will remain ok until you find better financial footing?
H may not file, as his history shows.
Not too much has actually changed. Although, it feels different.
I wanted my meeting to make me feel empowered and businesslike, but instead I feel vulnerable and like I won’t be able to convey to anyone accurately how H is trying to bully me.
I’m sorry your meeting left you feeling less strong.
Feelings will flit when not reinforced.
cardinal, you are a strong woman. The meeting is for information. You become empowered and businesslike through action. Note: Be empowered not feel empowered.
I get it. The feeling of being vulnerable. It’s ok. It’s real. It’s a feeling. And you are more than feelings. You are smart and capable. You have values, beliefs, and convictions. You are important and have value. Please see passed the bullying. Don’t get swept up in H’s nastiness.
Definitely go for another consult, I found I was really able to build a better understanding of what he could and couldn’t do after multiple consults. Thinking of you and hope this next one feels a little better.
I really like Kindly’s post.
You are building an understanding and multiple consults do help.
However, and I do get the intended sentiment, you don’t need to feel you have a good lawyer, you need to know it.
Our feelings are a bit mixed up during this time, and therefore not the best indicator of desirable course of action.
My L - I didn’t feel good about it. I felt sick. What I was doing. It was so wrong. Of course, I was what was wrong. I was all messed up. My L was actually top shelf (which took a while to feel that way).
I did also get stuck here, though:
Ask yourself this:
Was I happy in my marriage?
Overall. Don’t focus on a couple of bad incidences, over the 10 years of marriage, over the 16 years together. Look overall.
Was I happy? Maybe I'm too far in this mess to trust my answer right now. Did I love him? I can answer that wholeheartedly: Yes.
That is a good answer.
As this mess clears you will see better. For now, you cannot trust your answer, so don’t. Have faith - in yourself, in your past actions.
There was a time I questioned my past and my marriage. Was I actually happy? I didn’t have an answer. I had pictures, letters, and such. But no corroborating feelings. In time, clarity resumes and one’s past envelopes them again. Wholehearted answers and beliefs will, and do, live and breathe within us.
Just takes some time.
D
Kindly, kml, D, thank you so much for your support here! Kindly, did I mention this last L made a joke about domestic violence? I don't think I could go with him after that. I am hoping my second consult with the other L on Monday makes me feel better, because I'll have been through all the recommended Ls at that point.
Well bear in mind H cannot evict you so long as you keep your side of the street clean. So if you stay put he has no choice other than to stay living there with you or to move out himself. If he has an OW she will probably get tired of him living with his wife eventually.
Feelings aside for the moment, a recommended position when considering these business ideas. You are still leaving the heavy lifting to H? These meetings are only gathering information and only preparing if H gets a divorce petition in order?
You need not look so far ahead as indefinite. How is your financial position currently? Do you need protection? Do you think things will remain ok until you find better financial footing?
I am confused, partly because of 1) all the feelings I'm having and partly because 2) I just don't understand what the next available/best steps are for me. Maybe you all can help guide me in either side of this, the feelings or the logical side.
1) Feelings: yes, everything you describe, D--I feel sick, what I am doing, it's all wrong, even as I know seeking a L and probably eventually hiring a L is what is logical and needed. The other feelings are all stirred up and uncovered by the last spewing episode: still the shock at the extent of H's anger and his attempts to shame me (which I know is probably stemming from his own feelings of hurt, shame, guilt), as well as all the energy it is taking to try to push off the shame I feel as a result. It is that bit of truth underneath everything, H saying I broke his heart in the midst of his accusations--all of that messes with me even as I try to step back and recognize I should not be taking on all the stuff he threw at me.
Branching from that (I wish I could draw a flow chart here!): trying to keep separate spewing/current H from H I married, who, yes, had some controlling tendencies and anger that he didn't understand and so turned both inward and, as time went on, outward, but it was never anything like it is now. I think it's easy for me to feel terrible about this being the man I married, about not recognizing some of the ways he was controlling during the M or not setting stronger boundaries during arguments when his language was not respectful. As kml says, I can take off the rose-colored glasses and recognize some of this, and how I would react differently to it in another relationship or, if I could go back, in this one. But when I feel like I'm thinking a bit more clearly and not under the cloud of the current spewing, I think H slowly turned into the H he is now--he wasn't always this way. It happened gradually over time because H didn't/doesn't know how to process his own feelings or be in an R, friendship or M, without erasing himself and his own needs.
Branching from that is the fear of--as this goes on and as we enter D process at some point--just being witness to more of ugly H and having those memories coexist in my mind with who he was before. I know who he is currently, and I don't want to experience any more of that H! I don't need to. I'd rather try to hold on to a more balanced version of H, and the more spewing that happens, the more I feel those memories being muddied. This might be easier if we weren't in the same small house, so that I could simply limit my contact with current H. I absolutely have to walk away if he tries to spew in the future, because I don't need any more of that echoing in my head, right? I am not in a place where I can just let it slide off me--it seeps in and I find myself internalizing all the blame.
2) What do I need to do to protect myself? What next steps do I need to take? I was viewing these consults as getting more info to counteract my fear of H's last threats and to know which L I would go with once I am served and need help navigating this process. H is supposed to give me the financial docs I asked for on August 16--I wanted these docs before we would even begin to discuss an agreement. If I don't have D papers by then, does it really matter if he's given me docs or not? Do I need to push myself or him to make forward progress on any of this? Things on my mind related to this:
--He's already admitted to using half of our savings (that I can't access) to pay his credit card debt, and he could decide to spend the rest of the money from our savings,. According to the L, if this is indeed to pay debt on his credit card that was incurred while we were M, this kind of thing happens all the time and I can't do anything about it. If he does this and it turns out, once I was able to go through his card statements in discovery, there were big expenses he incurred after separation, then I would be entitled to some of that money back.
--It's still status quo right now with our joint checking, and with H still paying joint bills from it. I am not making much money (reduced hours and unemployment b/c Covid). I will, however, have a decent temporary paycheck in November/December because I'll be teaching for three months, so my plan is to open up my own savings account by then so that that money can be deposited there. I'm not risking H paying off his credit card with it.
--As kml points out with the house, it seems like status quo is my only option for now: I don't want to leave (and it is better financially for me not to leave), so I won't. Maybe Kindly is right--H changed his mind on moving out one week and changed it back, so maybe he will get tired of it at some point and decide to leave. How does it help me right now to worry about this aspect of the agreement we're apparently supposed to come to at some point?
Is this all making some kind of sense? I think H bringing up filing and how we can come to an agreement ourselves set me spinning and pushed me to take action: I asked for financial docs and he freaked out, threatened to leave me with nothing, so I started consulting L again. I'm feeling all kinds of pressure and I can't quite tell if it's coming from the need to do something or the illusion that I need to do something. In short:
Our feelings are a bit mixed up during this time, and therefore not the best indicator of desirable course of action.
Ie: I told her this was going to be a slow moving train....those words left my mouth based on wisdom from this site but I had no idea at the time just how slow ...and I’m still only a year in.
I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something. I don't want to be stuck with alien H any longer than I have to at this point. I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H. I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own. But: I can't control whether he chooses to stay in this house. I choose not to leave because it would hurt me financially in the present and future, and, yes, there are the pets here I couldn't take with me.
Hello cardinal
Feelings: They will change. Have faith.
Continue gathering information and further understanding about what your rights are and where you stand. No need to push further than that, for now.
I do get how sickening that feels. You know different; it just takes time for one’s emotions to catch up.
H’s spewing, behaviour, and words do seem to seep in, don’t they? It takes time to find one’s way through that.
The fear - of more ugly H and more unwanted memories. Those are definitely future events which are irrationally tied to and triggering...what. Fear is the emotional feedback from that unrealized state which is triggered by these ideas/events. Uncouple them.
From my perspective you speak of spew from H, the muddling of memories, and taking on blame. I agree you do not need that echoing within your head. Realize you are the one creating the echo and the fear. This is good news, since you created them, you can also stop them.
Mental assertiveness. Let go cardinal. Place your focus upon yourself.
So how to uncouple? Rationalize these irrational feedback loops. See new H and let him be. Know his path is his path and has nothing to do with you. More ugly H - so what. What can he do? Really what else can he do? Nothing. Fear not.
Welcome your new memories. These are the steps of you becoming better. Do not fret over your old memories, they will not be lost. Let go and have faith. Become.
The roots of fear are deep and focused upon self. Hurt and pain are at the root of our fears, fed by our imagination.
One fears divorce because they will suffer loss. Loss of spouse, status, money, kids, possessions, etc. One imagines all the terrible scenarios of such a loss. The pain and hurt that could result, which is much exaggerated.
These feelings get triggered by those events (ugly H and such). We feel and therefore incorrectly tie the event to the painful feelings. The next time we consider that event, the same painful feelings arise. Soon we fear that event. One perceives a threat of pain and becomes paralyzed to act.
You can uncouple at three places. The event - tie it to another emotion. With that there is no feedback loop.
The feedback itself - see it and push through it. Realize the irrational feedback response and hold to your course regardless. After, you realize there was little to be afraid of.
The root - the source of all fears. Realizing and accepting our own imagination is the root of our pain, hurt, and therefore fear. Fearless.
This all takes time to accomplish. Utilize and work on all three depending upon what you face. The grail is of course accepting the root of your fear, for that will affect and change everything.
Fear is the belief of threat of pain or hurt.
Fearless sees how that belief is imagined by us. Sees how fear lives in the future and doesn’t actually exist. Fearless is not reckless, it recognizes concerns and danger and takes appropriate action.
Next available/best steps: You want to remain living where you are. It is good financially. Do that.
Let go your fear. Focus upon yourself.
Dial down the pressure upon yourself. You don’t need to do anything right now.
Utilize your gift of time.
Don’t fear. You are doing fine.
D
Is this all making some kind of sense? I think H bringing up filing and how we can come to an agreement ourselves set me spinning and pushed me to take action: I asked for financial docs and he freaked out, threatened to leave me with nothing, so I started consulting L again. I'm feeling all kinds of pressure and I can't quite tell if it's coming from the need to do something or the illusion that I need to do something.
I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something. I don't want to be stuck with alien H any longer than I have to at this point. I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H. I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own. But: I can't control whether he chooses to stay in this house. I choose not to leave because it would hurt me financially in the present and future, and, yes, there are the pets here I couldn't take with me.
Hi Cardinal,
I can not echo enough what Dnj has said. He wrote a long post on my thread about the very same thing as my H leaped right into this L process early on. Yet as you know here I sit without even a SA basically 1 year in.
You are also fully correct in that it is a lot for our jumbled minds and hearts to process. I’m going to sound like a big girl here but I’m fully aware I’m channeling Dnj and others....we have to drop the rope even more. How do we do this when we feel threatened, scared and unclear of our path. FOCUS on what matters and what we CAN do. (I’m fully aware this only gets us so far....but it does help)
I like how you said in your last paragraph “I can’t control whether he chooses to stay....” EXACTLY we have zero control or influence over our H’s decisions or behaviours...BUT your next sentence says “I CHOOSE NOT TO LEAVE...”
that right there IS you doing something. You choosing to go see L’s IS you doing something. You bettering yourself financially with your upcoming teaching job IS you doing something. It just seems small and slow.
I remember reading and rereading Dnj’s words about this exact topic (thank ya!!!) and something clicked with me. I realized that I’m a fixer, a person of action and usually logic. I get poop done! This MLC is a slow moving train that never runs on time, sometimes I don’t even think it’s travelling on the tracks
(I digress...as I could have fun with this)
My point being, H’s actions are slow and confused, but we naturally want to react fast and rational. It doesn’t mix well.
When I got my answers from L (whether favourable or not) it gave me options, info and a small path to start walking. Walking NOT running....sometimes crawling.
H’s spewing and threats 100% create fear. I find the times I can recognize that fear forming, I refocus on what I can do to stop it and usually it’s get educated about something or IGNORE him. At the beginning of this I hid. I didn’t want to know anything. I didn’t want to think about paying a L, losing the house, moving, half-ing my assets, my pension (he doesn’t have one) and all the other things that go with this that creates instability. I know all situations are different but he got a L day 5 after BD ...I was harassed horribly to “get a lawyer” by him AND his mom. I was sick, scared and almost in the hospital from that 4 letter word ...fear. This has continued for basically 365 days at this point...asking for my F docs, asking what my L is doing, emails accusing me of holding things up and guess what...nothing has happened. He wants this...in my opinion it’s up to him to see it thru...I’m not leaving either (yet anyway). My L has all of my info ...his L has asked mine 3 times to exchange docs and then disappears, so mine just patiently stands by as per my instructions. I too constantly feel like I should be doing something or doing more. I have to remind myself I have done something, I’ve done lots of somethings. This is his MLC ...I’m a gal trying to get back up on my 2 feet the best way I know how. There’s no handbook for this ...just these wonderful people and friends here.
In my opinion, and a veteran can correct if I’m not accurate...don’t ask him for anything! Let him do the lifting especially if you’ve chosen to stay. His threats and words make it seem like he wants to push things alone but his actions speak volumes whether it’s confusion or not really wanting to go. I think this comes back to them feeling pressure. Mine yells “I’m not living in the basement anymore” ...yet there he is with enough money to go at any time. I think he spews when someone gets in his head or when I question him or unintentionally provoke him in some way. Best way to not do this is to ignore ignore ignore.
Which brings me to my last point for which I am 10000% on the same page as you right now...and will write this on my own thread as well.... Alien H affecting memories of old H, Mentally and physically healthier being on our own and how much longer can I live like this....I sometimes feel like what’s the point. Why am I hanging onto this, staying here, holding on for what? I don’t want to go but I’m tired of coming home to this ....I don’t know how to detach further when His behaviour and actions are constantly in our face.
You are ok Cardinal, keep gathering your info and doing your best to get yourself in a safe financial position. Is there anyway you can get half of what remains in your joint account now and start your own account ASAP? As we’ve read on here they are not good with money. Keep records of everything ...write it down and date it....if he’s spent and paid personal bills after your separation date you are definitely entitled to half of that back....my H is angry currently because my L is making him do 2 FA one for his proposed separation date and a 5 month after one for my proposed date ...he earned and spent like crazy as soon as HE set a S date...my L saw right through that.
Find someone that will work for you. I too was confused about exchanging F docs....I highly recommend you don’t get it yourself from H ...he’s already proven untrustworthy and the numbers prob won’t be accurate. My H flat out lied and omitted major assets.
I would focus on:
- finding a lawyer you know will work for you and that understands the “unique timeline “ of your sitch, you don’t care if they understand how you’re being treated ...they are all business and usually don’t care for “he said she said”
-if you haven’t already, get a blank copy of the FD document and fill yours out ...do as much as you can do to prep yourself....1. It’s empowering and 2. It will cost you less if the L doesn’t have to do it
- jot down any unique situations to discuss with L like the cars and your current financial situation (Joint account) and ask what you can do to protect yourself.
- get your own CC now if you don’t have one and only buy what you can afford ...don’t make a mess for yourself
-get your name off any joint CC’s as soon as possible
That’s all I can think of for now. Sorry for the long reply. I feel for you as I was and am right where you are. I’m cheering for you and know you’ve got this!! WE are the focus not the alien we currently live with.
(((((Hugs)))))
Kindly,
Cardinal, let me be the millionth person to say that it doesn't feel this way right now, but YOU WILL BE FINE. I would even guess that a couple of years from now you will be better than fine, you will be THRIVING. I know it is so, so, so, so hard right now, but if you can let yourself think that for even 2 seconds each day, it will eventually bring you a level of comfort.
You and I share the spewing Hs, rewritten histories and memories of a better M. Can I give you permission to let go of your need to cling to your memories and the better H you married? DnJ put it perfectly that there will be a period of time when that no longer serves you, but it doesn't mean it is lost forever. I am literally inches ahead of you in this whole process, so am not speaking from a place of great authority, but once I was able to let go of my perfect M to a wonderful H, I have been able to detach much more than I ever thought possible in a short amount of time. In fact, recognizing that H is really NOT a good person right now and definitely NOT someone I would want to be with right now has been paramount to me surviving the past 10 days. And I feel stronger for it.
I know the memories will not go away completely and I have memorabilia such as letters and photos that confirm my understanding of our marriage (not to mention 4 living beings that were products of our love). I can always go back and relive those memories whenever I want. In the meantime, I need to use this fuel to truly let go. Maybe you do too.
Regarding L's: trust your gut and find someone you want on your team, whom you trust inherently. Keep searching until you find that person. Even if they are not on the list of recommendations that you have.
I have some thoughts on your last paragraph:
I think this is also a big fear of mine, and, yeah, it's typical of the sitches on this site for the D to drag on, isn't it? Maybe that's also why I am feeling pressure to do something.
Can I kindly ask if the pressure is based on emotions and not practicalities? Because if I remember right in your sitch, staying M means that you have health insurance, a certain level of financial security and get to stay in the house. Can you focus on those things that you are gaining at the moment by the D moving slowly?
I want to hold onto my old memories and focus on my new life without H. I know that I can still strive to do this while living with alien H, but it's not the same, is it? Seeing him like this is affecting how I feel about old H.
Doing it while living with H is going to be very, very hard but there are practical benefits at the moment. You can do it. Again, back to my suggestion of not projecting fears into your current moment: you will not lose those good memories.
I know I will be mentally and physically healthier on my own.
Yes, you will!! But the trade offs at the moment (staying in your house long-term, current health insurance, current financial stability) mean you have to put up with living with H for the time being. Think: this really, really svcks now, but once it is over I am going to be better than fine.
Hugs Cardinal, thanks for your wise words on my threads over the months..
I'm just going to put this here:
you can interview every lawyer in town. Not one of them will then be able to be hired by your H, as it will be a conflict of interest.
I wish I'd done that with the lawyer my exh hired. I'd had a feeling I should do so, but did not. Would have saved a lot of spewing as she was an expert at ramping him up to increase her fee.
ka-ching.
I did hire ever lawyer in my town. There is only one.
XW ended up having to travel to city an hour away for her consultations. Lol.
I did hire ever lawyer in my town. There is only one.
XW ended up having to travel to city an hour away for her consultations. Lol.
too bad for her.
my heart pumps koolaid
How are ya Cardinal? Thinking about you.
K
DnJ, Kindly, Sage, bttrfly: I am too tired to quote (it's crazy hot here and all energy, physical or mental, has been zapped), but I went back and re-read all of your comments yet again, and I think you for all of your wisdom and encouragement. You all said things I needed to hear (also, bttrfly, "my heart pumps kool-aid"—lol), and I have been able to find some calm at times since my last post, have definitely let go of some of the pressure I was putting on myself. It became clear to me I had responded to H's latest D announcement as if I were dealing with a rational person (let's get going, financial doc expectations, etc.), and as Kindly pointed out, slow, irrational MLC and rational LBS do not mix! Sage, I guess it's still true that the longer this goes on and we don't split expenses, the longer I have to hopefully find another job. I'm pretty mad that Congress couldn't get their act together to pass more aid, so without that, I really can't afford to pay even half of rent without going into small savings I have for L.
Thinking about what I fear and how to rationalize that, what I haven't let go... I still haven't let go of what my M was. I'm still putting energy into trying to understand it and what's happened with H. IC again suggested H is dealing with mental illness of some kind (his mom has a history of depression and anxiety) and that I won't be able to understand his current behavior because it is irrational. And, though of course she can't diagnose him, she did bring up some of his past/present behaviors that are indicative of borderline personality disorder. She said he has no consistent or solid sense of self, that he has likely always only been who I knew him as in the moment. I just felt the floor sort of shift under me when she said that. I've felt a little sick to my stomach ever since. You know how we always talk about MLC aliens--I guess this is underlining the possibility that H really may never come back to who I thought he was, not because of MLC but because he's not able to experience what it feels like to have a solid sense of self. All of this amplified my feelings of living with a doppelganger in a horror movie kind of way.
Our mutual friend had said to me that he may see our shared history in black and white now, as all bad, but that is what always happens when someone decides to D, and that it won't be that way forever. That's the idea behind WAS and MLCer's rewriting of history. But what if bpd means this is the inevitable progression of an R for H, seeing me and the R as bad?
I always tend to read when I don't understand something and want to. So I read more about bpd and H seems to share a lot of characteristics with "quiet" bpd--an aversion to and so suppression of "negative" emotions as a faulty coping mechanism, anger directed inward until over the years it began to be directed outward toward me, a tendency to think of some people as "bad" people. The MLCer does share many of these characteristics too. But I do think some of these were present many years before--especially suppression of anger, sadness, etc. and this tendency for his feelings to equal reality so that arguments would go in circles.
I read an old post where job wrote something like, learned behavior or personality disorder--it's hard to tell sometimes, and people who start with some of these characteristics are more likely to experience a full-blown MLC rather than a life transition.
I know these are more unanswerable questions. I know I need to let go of this need/desire to understand him. It's his journey and I'm on mine. What does it matter, MLC or bpd or some mix? I get that. But I'm not there yet. I still want to understand. It's hard to read about the experiences of people with bpd--it's sad to think that is potentially what H has felt inside for years but not been able to express or understand. And partly it still seems to matter because MLC has more hope attached to it, perhaps, then mental illness or a personality disorder, even though I know that either way it is always up to H to look inside and seek help.
I started out last year wanting to save my M and having a lot of hope for that. Then I really began to accept M was over, and my focus became wanting H to know somehow, deep down, that I loved him, that I had loved him, that I care about him and wish him well. It's hard to accept that because of H's state right now he is convinced that I never loved him.
Did anyone here go through this phase of questioning mental illness/personality disorder/MLC? I've found a few really old threads.
I hope you all are staying cool. Time to check on the chickens...
Did anyone here go through this phase of questioning mental illness/personality disorder/MLC? I've found a few really old threads. .
Have you ever read my story?
I thought it was MLC.
Now I think that MLC made it impossible for him to do battle with his mental illness anymore -- borderline, NPD, some kinda cluster disorder. Looking back, I see that I ignored a lot. He changed, but maybe not as much as I thought. I can tell you some good titles to read. My advice is -- assume he has a personality disorder and set up a new life for yourself. It will help you GAL. You can keep a corner of your heart open to reconciliation. I am the Queen B of standing for marriage, I really believe in it. But I think the only way to do it is to make a life for yourself without the one you are standing for. I think it's the only way to heal, and your healing will be necessary for a restored marriage or for a life without H.
Queen B—yes, of course, I do remember you writing about this recently as you were thinking back over your M. I have read your threads piecemeal, but not from beginning to present yet. I’m sure I would find much to empathize and identify with there. I downloaded the book Splitting by Eddy and Kreger but have just not been in the mood to read it when I have so many other library books I need to get to (a new story collection sounds much more pleasurable!). There’s something about reading it that feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy right now. Maybe what’s eating at me is that I could be standing for a version of H that can’t exist again because it’s not a point H could return to? Or a version that didn’t exist even then in the way I thought it did? If indeed his identity is so slippery. I do accept and am on the path to making a life for myself without H. So much of this sifting and questioning is just part of grief, I suppose, and wishing I had something to quiet the grief, like a stable story of H to tuck away in my memory.
Hello cardinal
Standing truly starts when one is healed enough to stand down. Until then healing and standing are bound together.
It’s not the marriage one stands for. It’s not one’s spouse. You stand for you.
I’m not standing because of who my wife was. I stand because of who I am.
D
So much of this sifting and questioning is just part of grief, I suppose, and wishing I had something to quiet the grief, like a stable story of H to tuck away in my memory.
Hi Cardinal, thanks for exploring this I am again right beside you. I’ve spent so much time, so many different angles looking for that elusive answer to “why”. What happened to cause this.
Then it hit me. It doesn’t matter.
My H was who he was and I loved him...that version of him. Something happened ... he’s changed....he’s not himself now. This new reality, as baffling as it is to us, doesn’t get to change who he was...because I say it doesn’t. Maybe they do have a personality disorder, a mental illness, or anything else we want to transfix on to give us some kind of answer for the current states we find ourselves in.
But you know what? It doesn’t matter.
I’m doing my best this week to stop looking in the rear view mirror. Those moments, days and experiences are done...already lived. And I choose to no longer let this dark MLC cloud hijack or gaslight my past feelings, opinions or reality of what that past was for me and for us as H and wife.
I went through months and months of feeling like my whole life and marriage was a farce and fake ....what does that do for me? Nobody really has the answer to that and there’s nothing to be done about it anyway even if it was the case.
I know you’re not there yet, and you want understanding. Just refocus the understanding to
you and not
H.
Your peace is coming and I feel all kinds of wonderful things for you. I saw two rainbows last week and they made me so happy with the simple things in life. I had a fire, watched the stars and sat in a forest. I’ve grounded myself. You can do this too when you are ready. I’ve learned you can’t force your timeline. It’ll happen when you’re ready and you’ll drop the rope a little more.
(((Hugs)))
K
I don’t quote on here so I have no idea how to do it-BUT The paragraph about how your H was your H and you loved him...smacks me upside the head. It doesn’t matter why my H is doing this, believe me, I have had counseling trying to determine what trauma he may have experienced that out him on this path. Why? I can’t go back in time and fix it so it doesn’t happen.
I need to remember that it doesn’t matter, it is happening. I’m giving him a wide berth, trying to GAL and stand for him yet move forward for me.
Just now, he came home from work and brought me some face masks he picked up, “hey, you want these masks?” Me “sure, where did you get them? “ H-“I picked them up at the place I go for supplies” why, friends? It doesn’t matter.
I thanked him, then he left to who know where. It doesn’t matter.
PLC
I haven't had time to catch up with posts. I will soon. L consult tomorrow--still trying to gather info and find someone who I'd potentially want to hire. Please allow me to ramble: We're at the tail end of a crazy heat wave, and there are fires all over the state. A friend's home and farm may have burned last night--she said she let her donkeys and goat go before they evacuated, but didn't mention anything about their chickens. One of our chickens "retired" there years ago, and I always go to visit her. I hope the animals are okay, I hope their home somehow survived the fire... I've just been broken up about that all day. I shared her update with H via text this morning and mentioned our chicken, but of course he hasn't responded. I'm not surprised, but I've been struggling all day. Before I saw the news about the fire, I woke up and for some reason was thinking about how I used to wake up next to H. Then, looking through phone photos for something I needed, I came across the photo of the letter H had given me in November--I started reading it thinking it was the photo of the apology/love letter he'd written me when we were in college. The similarities... both times he admits running away from things and shutting down. In the first one, though, he says he misses me and the happiness we had (I'd broken up with him months earlier). In the second one from last year, he says all he knows is he can't find the happiness he wants with me, and he is filing for D.
It was weird reading those letters back to back today. He sounded in the second letter like he'd realized some things with his post-BD IC, had examined his life, and was ready to move forward without me, though he was sorry that it had come to this. He sounded like he'd struggled with the decision over the few months after BD, but he was confident and moving forward in order to be happy. He didn't love me anymore. He sounded somewhat rational. But then why did he never file? I know there is no rational answer. Ugh. From where I sit reading both those letters now, he's just as lost now as he was in college. He realized he'd been sad and unhappy for years and hadn't let himself feel those things--it's like, of course, in his mind, our R/M had to go too. He's got to leave behind those sad/unhappy feelings. There was none of the anger in that letter that he's directed at me since.
Kindly, I need to re-read your post. I've been so busy focusing on the classes I'll be teaching that I haven't been looking in the rearview mirror. But I'm just all around sad today, and everything is covered in ash.
Cardinal, I pray you and yours stay safe during the fires. I have dear family who are on evacuation watch.
I asked that all my threads be pulled and won't be posting much here, but will continue to read and follow along, posting from time to time. I've found out that my exh was most assuredly involved with OW while still married to me. Not sure at all how long that went on prior to BD. I also don't think she's been told the truth at all either, which completely unnerves me, so take what I'm saying here and filter it through that lens. Truth is, it's too easy to find me, and she amped it up over the weekend with a direct assault via email. It was revelatory and incredible -- I now think that MLC is the tip of the iceberg in my case. Minimally NPD and sociopathic behavior as well, with a truly sadistic streak. I need to pull back to stay incognito.
Forget the past. Forget the memories you have. You may be the only one keeping them. It's time for you to make new memories and move forward. Make yourself someone he'd be a fool to have left. But do it for you, because in the end, he may not care at all but you'll have a great new life.
I now know my exh was heavily involved w/OW, demanded all kinds of things and got them then started telling me he loved me, and dragged our divorce out six months after I told him to stop saying that unless he wanted to work on the marriage. Why? God alone knows. Why was he so absolutely furious with me when the divorce was finalized? He screamed at me that he never wanted this and don't put it all on him. All the while, they may have even been living together, with her thinking we'd been divorced for God knows how long. He kissed me on at least three separate occasions, including after our court appearance, which we attended hand in hand, with my head on his shoulder and left the same way, hand in hand. He brought me food when I had the flu. But he also shared private emails and phone messages with her and they laughed at me, according to her. None of this makes any logical sense. They are generally not logical. If you're lucky, they won't be as completely b@t$h1t crazy as mine apparently was/is, or as absolutely cruel. My therapist says she's never seen anything to rival the cruelty of this pair in her 20 years of practice. Not a jackpot I wanted to win. And not to say yours is this way, but never forget that people in crisis are in pain. As a result, they don't really care who else is hurting. They can't because there is no space for anyone else in their festering misery. Pray for him and take care of you.
That's the best I have today honey. You will be ok. Allow yourself some grieving time, but don't waste your life wondering about the inner workings of a person in crisis.
xoxoxo
bttrfly, I was frantically searching for your thread and thought I'd lost it--I was hoping for an update on your pup. Is she doing okay this week? I'll be thinking of your family on evacuation watch too. So many people and animals on my mind. Yes, I should add H to that prayer list and just let it all go. I know. Some days are harder than others to still be living with him. I have no doubt it drags my grieving process out.
I'm so sorry to hear that OW is now emailing you and that exh has won your therapist's award. It sounds like OW might be up for a prize too. I'll miss your threads here but count myself lucky that I have your posts on my threads to go back and read, and will count myself luckier still if you are present here from time to time. Your words have helped me so much, bttrfly. I'll be thinking of you and the guidance you've given me every time I pick up my three-sectioned notebook.
And not to say yours is this way, but never forget that people in crisis are in pain. As a result, they don't really care who else is hurting. They can't because there is no space for anyone else in their festering misery. Pray for him and take care of you.
I think if his pain didn't go away with that letter, with his decision to D, and if it doesn't go away as long as this D process goes on, he'll see that as my fault. And if the pattern on every single thread here holds, his pain will not go away simply because he's decided to end our M.
Pray for him and take care of me. Pray for him and take care of me.
bttrfly, I'll be praying for you and your son. I hope you'll pop in at some point to update me on the chickens. xoxo
well, since my furry boy was just racing around the yard, safe to say we've made it through. Chickens hatched jailbreak #8, but work was done today on the coop, their roof is shingled and their window is at least placed in. Needs wood putty and caulk (this isn't going to be a pretty American Carolina Coop but if it works, who cares. THey need to be out of my house will as much speed as possible. My foot is the hold up and it's looking pretty bruised, so I suspect on Monday I'll get more boot time,
I don't think they will contact again, but yeah, not taking chances. I'm not leaving, just not posting my own threads. Too easy to track me down, and he and I were told about this place at the same time, so ... better safe than sorry.
In my case, my exh has sold OW and himself a bill of goods that cannot be believed, and he clings to that narrative like a barnacle. But, that's none of my business. What anyone else thinks of you is none of your business. What do you think of yourself? That's what's important, Cardinal. TY for your prayers, honey and I will keep you and yours in mine. xoxoxo
Wow bttrfly that sounds crazy - but somehow not unexpected that an OW on the other side of the country could be deceived about the real status of your marriage. I hope this allows you to finally let go fully of your ex and realize you deserve so much more. ((((hug))))
Wow bttrfly that sounds crazy - but somehow not unexpected that an OW on the other side of the country could be deceived about the real status of your marriage. I hope this allows you to finally let go fully of your ex and realize you deserve so much more. ((((hug))))
I don't want to hijack Card's thread, but I will say this: it makes me re-think standing. I know that is not a DB friendly response, but in my case, I do believe that mental illness is involved. I can only see this in hindsight, which is even more frightening. How do you tell? How do you tell if your beloved spouse is in MLC, or is mentally ill, or a sociopathic narcissist?
Answers I do not have.
Feel free to hijack! I have these questions too.
Hi cardinal -
I saw your post on DnJ's thread but didn't want to hijack. I'm sorry you're still in this position, but at least here you're among others who are in a similar boat
I also occasionally wonder about W and why the sudden change happened. Whether it is one thing or something else.
But then I remember it doesn't really matter what "it" is. Knowing the "why" may provide a momentary relief, but it doesn't change the result.
Logic applied to someone who is - at the very least - behaving illogically is a fruitless endeavor.
It has taken me a long time to finally start to understand this. The need to know "why" consumed me for a long time, until one day I woke up and realized how much time and energy I had spent thinking about possible present and past events and scenarios and future outcomes - and how i was no farther ahead.
That was a lot of pointless scrutiny, a lot of days and hours that I will never get back. A light bulb moment - if you will.
Thats when I realized I had to start letting go of everything, including my need to know why, my need to understand, and also my need to feel hurt at what had happened.
Granted these things are all works in progress. Some days I succeed, some days I fail. But thats sort of how life goes too.
I hope you can begin to start finding some peace within. There isn't anything you did or didn't do that could have prevented this from happening. The change isn't inside of you, it is inside of them - it is very important to remember that.
Take care - and stay strong
I will say this - now that I understand better, I know that I personally need to heal from the effects of living with a sociopathic narcissist. that's good information to have.
But I also agree with IW - don't over-analyze it. Take care of you, put yourself and your own mental, physical, emotional, spiritual and financial wellbeing first and foremost.
Oh man (((Cardinal))),
I’m so sorry to hear about the fires and people close to you. This is absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking. I hope everyone, including the animals are ok. Thinking about you.
Your plate is full right now my friend, let yourself off the hook as much as you can, focus on one thing at a time. When big things are happening it’s overwhelming on a good day never mind when we’re up to our eyeballs with a live in stranger in MLC in our face.
This stage (Finding a lawyers and all that mentally comes with that) was awful for me ....so much emotion, confusion and fear. You will be ok!!! I hope the appt goes well.
Big HUGS to you, people are listening and care about YOU.
K,
Card - I finished enough of the coop to put the chicks in. They won't be able to use the run for another day or two, as i'm waiting for the guy to come back and finish the last panel, the door and the roof, but everything else is good enough to go.
The clean out door can be added once the run is done and they are ensconced in that. The egg box -- same.
Now to rest then clean my bathroom. Thought you'd like to know. They look very confused, lol.
Now to rest then clean my bathroom. Thought you'd like to know. They look very confused, lol.
Yay--congrats on being so close and finally reclaiming your bathroom! A major accomplishment for sure. I'm sure they'll get the hang of their new digs very soon. How's your foot? Thanks for the update.
My chicken update is that somehow, though farms and houses burned all around, my friend's home and farm were spared and all of their animals are fine. She said when they returned, the chickens looked completely unaware of having had any near brush with death. Seems about right. The fires are still growing all around the state. This has really made me question whether I want to stay here--H was my family, but now all my family lives elsewhere. I do think it's best for my now-necessary career change to stay here long enough to get a new job and a good amount of experience for my resume. That's reason talking--emotion sometimes says get out and away from H.
IW, thanks for stopping by.
Thats when I realized I had to start letting go of everything, including my need to know why, my need to understand, and also my need to feel hurt at what had happened.
Granted these things are all works in progress. Some days I succeed, some days I fail. But thats sort of how life goes too.
I am feeling rather un-evolved in the area of not needing to know why lately, like I've regressed in that and am not doing so well. I keep having dreams in which I'm interacting with old or new H or someone in his family, trying to make sense of things. Thanks for the reminder, IW, that it is a work in progress. All through this process I've struggled from time to time with wanting to be further along than I am, and I should know by now that focusing on where I'm
not or what I'm not feeling good about at the moment doesn't help either.
Kindly, you conveyed your process with this so well!
My H was who he was and I loved him...that version of him. Something happened ... he’s changed....he’s not himself now. This new reality, as baffling as it is to us, doesn’t get to change who he was...because I say it doesn’t. Maybe they do have a personality disorder, a mental illness, or anything else we want to transfix on to give us some kind of answer for the current states we find ourselves in.
But you know what? It doesn’t matter.
I’m doing my best this week to stop looking in the rear view mirror. Those moments, days and experiences are done...already lived. And I choose to no longer let this dark MLC cloud hijack or gaslight my past feelings, opinions or reality of what that past was for me and for us as H and wife.
I don't know if I can consciously work to accept these conclusions in my own mind, or if it's another instance of letting go of where I want to be and trusting that acceptance and truly feeling and believing these things you're writing will eventually come.
I guess my focusing on me has to do mostly with L stuff right now, and that just reminds me of how crazy it feels to have ended up here, here being not only with D, but with a D that is so backwards and nonsensical at times because of H.
Still wasn't feeling great about other Ls I talked to, then heard things about one that confirmed my off feeling. I was actually able to find a free consult with a L who volunteers his time at a nonprofit, and I really liked him. He seemed to be less aggressive than the others but aware of what it means to deal with a S who is at times controlling in this process. He also made it a point to listen to questions I had rather than just talking the whole time. He confirmed H still hasn't filed. I haven't gotten any specific recommendations for this L from others in town, but he has good reviews online. Someone was saying to me that maybe it's better to have a L who seems aggressive even if you don't necessarily "like" him or connect with him, but don't I want someone who can help diffuse conflict and not feed it in this situation?
I have one (hopefully last) consult coming up. I seem to come up with a couple of new questions each time and still feel unclear about the way forward. It seems to depend on what moves H makes.
The other thing bothering me is that H and I barely say anything to each other now, since his spew a month ago. I've tried to stay NC other than offering cordial hellos or good mornings, and H has been gone a lot. There hasn't even been a short exchange about the fires. I struggle with feeling like I have failed in one of my goals of staying friendly, in feeling like we are further apart than ever. I realize that it's his decision to spew and belittle me that has contributed to this more than anything I have said or done, but I still have that nagging feeling sometimes like I'm failing to do something or act a certain way, or to act like myself. Maybe it's because I'm just seeing through his warped perspective--that I'm cold and never loved him and, see, now I'm just confirming it.
I'm putting May's comment to Sage here, because I think this applies to how I am feeling in many ways:
Gently, I wonder... why do you care if deep down he wants to be friends and have an amicable split where you can spend time together as a family? Is this what you want? Especially with someone who is treating you the way he is? Maybe at some point in the future he will be the kind of human being you want to spend time with, again. But it sure doesn't sound like he is that person right now and I am just wondering why you want to subject yourself to it.
It seems to me that going NC/grey rock will not only protect you and give you the space and ability to heal-- and protect your own self-esteem and self-worth-- but also honestly protect the possibility of being friendly in the future. It seems like these toxic interactions could really poison your potential future amicable relationship. Can you move your necessary conversations to email?
From an unbiased perspective, no, H has not been treating me respectfully. NC is a way to protect myself, so why am I still worried about how H might interpret it? I think it is just a way of being that I'm not used to--I'd rather have friendly chit chat than silence. I've never had to be in close quarters with someone who was treating me this way. I've never really been treated the way H has treated me during spew, period. And I think I still confuse remaining compassionate with being overtly friendly. Would I be overly talkative to a cashier who had yelled at me? I would probably avoid their line next time. But I wouldn't go out of my way to be
unkind to them. Am I on the right track here?
This is what happens when I can't update regularly. My posts get sooo long.
I have been thinking a lot about you Cardinal and your journey.
I had a fascinating conversation with someone about dharma that really resonated with my process. Dharma is what is so in our lives, whether we like it or not, and our individual dharma is how we contribute and/or react to that which happens to us. Dharma is accepting the matrix that defines us as individuals, without losing our place within the greater social context of humanity. And in its simplest form, dharma is doing the most good with what we have been given, and the least amount of harm.
I struggle with feeling like I have failed in one of my goals of staying friendly, in feeling like we are further apart than ever. I realize that it's his decision to spew and belittle me that has contributed to this more than anything I have said or done, but I still have that nagging feeling sometimes like I'm failing to do something or act a certain way, or to act like myself. Maybe it's because I'm just seeing through his warped perspective--that I'm cold and never loved him and, see, now I'm just confirming it.
I am struggling with the exact same thing you are at the moment. That somehow I am letting myself down by not being the most compassionate, all-accepting, loving human being I can to H, even when he is spewing at me. But in recognizing how one can do the most good with the least amount of harm, one must also integrate the harm you are causing yourself by allowing someone to treat you so poorly. In essence, you can be compassionate and loving, but you might have to reserve some of that for yourself instead of H. In this particular paragraph quoted above, I don't think you are living your dharma by allowing H to warp YOUR perspective on what kind of human you are. You know that you loved him, and were warm and loving in your M. That he doesn't recognize it right now is not your dharma (it will likely play out into his karma, but that's another discussion).
From an unbiased perspective, no, H has not been treating me respectfully. NC is a way to protect myself, so why am I still worried about how H might interpret it? I think it is just a way of being that I'm not used to--I'd rather have friendly chit chat than silence. I've never had to be in close quarters with someone who was treating me this way. I've never really been treated the way H has treated me during spew, period. And I think I still confuse remaining compassionate with being overtly friendly. Would I be overly talkative to a cashier who had yelled at me? I would probably avoid their line next time. But I wouldn't go out of my way to be unkind to them. Am I on the right track here?
Again, I relate to this with my whole being. And I think you are on the right track. I would gently guide you (myself included) to remain compassionate. But compassion is not just something that you give to someone else. Self-compassion is equally important and so necessary to replenish the wellspring of compassion we give to others. In fact,
self-compassion is perhaps more important than
compassion for others when we are going through such challenging situations.
I am not a buddhist or hindu, so I might have massacred the definitions of dharma and compassion, but this was the lesson I received this week and it has been helping me to understand my own journey.
xx
i'm glad your friend's farm and the animals were spared. I have friends who are like family to me who are now traveling out of state due to evacuation.
As far as leaving the area - don't make any hasty decisions right now. Try to keep it as simple as you can. Don't plan more than a week out. Get as much rest as you can. Get as much exercise as possible. Focus on your immediate needs and base your goals on the core values you've identified for yourself. Most of that Job taught me. The last one I learned on my own.
Protecting yourself is not an option - it's self care. Imagine any other person in the world treating you as your H is currently. What would be your response - as you stated, avoidance. You're being polite. You're being respectful. If you can behave in a manner that is congruent with your core values, that is all anyone can ask of you. If it's not good enough for someone who has already said they are leaving you, then too bad for him.
Honestly my dear, I wish I'd known more when I was in your shoes. I would have practiced metta even more deeply, and ho'onoponopono as well, because both kept and continue to keep me sane. More. Focus. On. You. All. Focus. On. You.
Does any of that make sense?
Hello cardinal
Someone was saying to me that maybe it's better to have a L who seems aggressive even if you don't necessarily "like" him or connect with him, but don't I want someone who can help diffuse conflict and not feed it in this situation?
I would say it is unlikely to find a L you like or connect with after a meeting or two.
I felt much better about my own lawyer after my separation AND the rewriting of my will. The legal altering of my will could not happen until W and I separated, I found out.
My L’s skills and expertise had been proven during separation. However, it is more than that. It’s trust. And that takes time. I had extended my faith to him for leading me, and looking after my interests during the divorce. I was not disappointed. I trusted him to understand and empathize my desires to help me craft my will accordingly. Again I was not disappointed.
And in the less than the required year, when XW served me papers, his behaviour has sealed him as a professional I would recommend. And yes, a person I like. However, our relationship is business.
Do you want someone who can defuse conflict? And not feed this situation? No you do not. You want a lawyer that can bring this situation to a timely and fair resolution. The lawyer is hired to dissolve your marriage, not save it.
There is conflict, this is divorce after all. The L’s job is to hash out those conflicts with the other L and bring you the options. And that requires feeding directly into this situation. Feeding in a way to garner you what you are negotiating for, if possible.
The very skills necessary to see the overall picture, to not prolong conflict or the situation, probably appears rather aggressive. Results oriented is an aggressive work style.
I would tend to agree to look for competent and aggressive instead of likeable. Lawyer vs counsellor, I suppose.
I struggle with feeling like I have failed in one of my goals of staying friendly, in feeling like we are further apart than ever.
I think it is just a way of being that I'm not used to--I'd rather have friendly chit chat than silence. I've never had to be in close quarters with someone who was treating me this way. I've never really been treated the way H has treated me during spew, period. And I think I still confuse remaining compassionate with being overtly friendly. Would I be overly talkative to a cashier who had yelled at me? I would probably avoid their line next time. But I wouldn't go out of my way to be unkind to them. Am I on the right track here?
I am sorry you feel you have failed with your goal of staying friendly.
I like your cashier analogy; not purposefully seeking to be unkind. At times that is all one can do to be compassionate and friendly. Avoid interaction for a while, until times allows for emotions to cool. You are avoiding H’s line is all.
Yes, you and he are further apart than ever. Unless you tried talking and pushing kindness upon him. You wisely know how that would go down and the fallout from such a confrontation. You are upon the higher path. The right track.
Compassion and friendly do somewhat get blurred. True, both can and plenty do exist within each other’s realm. It is compassion that can exist with indifference. And indifference is a way of being that takes some getting used to.
You are doing good my friend.
D
I think it is just a way of being that I'm not used to--I'd rather have friendly chit chat than silence. I've never had to be in close quarters with someone who was treating me this way. I've never really been treated the way H has treated me during spew, period. And I think I still confuse remaining compassionate with being overtly friendly. Would I be overly talkative to a cashier who had yelled at me? I would probably avoid their line next time. But I wouldn't go out of my way to be unkind to them. Am I on the right track here?
Hi Cardinal,
I don't think you have any obligation to be chit-chat friendly with your H. i know it feels weird and wrong and like you're the bad guy... but you aren't. I really truly don't think you are breaking a commitment to yourself to be a compassionate human being when you stay silent. Silence can be incredibly uncomfortable but it can also be peace-bringing and healing. And when you are putting your friendliness and kindness out to someone who cannot return it in kind, maybe it is actually kinder to simply say nothing. Don't put him into a situation where he feels like he maybe needs to say something in return and he simply isn't capable of doing that well right now. Does that make sense? By giving him silence instead of opening the door for interaction, you are preventing an opportunity for him to spew which is better not only for you but for him as well.
Turn that big heart in on yourself and nourish your own spirit right now. You need it and you deserve it. xx
The other thing bothering me is that H and I barely say anything to each other now, since his spew a month ago. I've tried to stay NC other than offering cordial hellos or good mornings, and H has been gone a lot. There hasn't even been a short exchange about the fires. I struggle with feeling like I have failed in one of my goals of staying friendly, in feeling like we are further apart than ever. I realize that it's his decision to spew and belittle me that has contributed to this more than anything I have said or done, but I still have that nagging feeling sometimes like I'm failing to do something or act a certain way, or to act like myself. Maybe it's because I'm just seeing through his warped perspective--that I'm cold and never loved him and, see, now I'm just confirming it.
Hi Cardinal,
[/i]Same. Same. Same[i]...I can’t remember the last time H and I have said hello or good morning. The last interaction was a week ago and he was in fine spewing form...and now silence as well as darkness (literally won’t turn lights on when he comes upstairs ....beezare!!) I feel like this is compassionate failure as well.
Reading a lot of the advice that was posted I did find helpful. And I do think a big part of us feeling this way is because it is such foreign behaviour for us. Trust me though you are not “cold” nor did you “never love him” - this is gaslighting, searching for sense but allowing it to get twisted.
Compassion comes in many forms and sometimes the compassionate focus needs to be taken off of our H and put onto us. After all they are “living their best lives” (until they are not). We need to “right” ourselves the best way we know how with very little answers or explanations. (I’m telling myself all of this too btw....)
I remember job and dnj saying early on that actions we take as LBS’s will seem counterproductive and all wrong...but that’s when you know you’re heading in the right direction...(I hope I have the jest of that correct) Maybe that’s what this is Cardinal, as may22 said:
I don't think you have any obligation to be chit-chat friendly with your H. i know it feels weird and wrong and like you're the bad guy... but you aren't. I really truly don't think you are breaking a commitment to yourself to be a compassionate human being when you stay silent. Silence can be incredibly uncomfortable but it can also be peace-bringing and healing. And when you are putting your friendliness and kindness out to someone who cannot return it in kind, maybe it is actually kinder to simply say nothing. Don't put him into a situation where he feels like he maybe needs to say something in return and he simply isn't capable of doing that well right now. Does that make sense? By giving him silence instead of opening the door for interaction, you are preventing an opportunity for him to spew which is better not only for you but for him as well.
Maybe it is taking some more of the pressure off of them?
Have you baked anything lately? I think I’m due to make some brownies .....yummmmmm
(((Cardinal)))
K
It's been hard to find time and focus to write a post here, though as always I've been reading along with everyone's threads and finding much wisdom and support.
bttrfly, Sage, DnJ, may, and Kindly, your posts on dharma and compassion and kindness really have helped me to rethink the way I was framing my relative silence toward H. I've read them many times. I am so grateful for them. Sage, your recent-ish post on your thread really resonated with me, as did the responses from peace, Scout, etc.
Since I last posted, my focus has been almost entirely on me, and I haven't spent any time reading articles and websites in an attempt to understand H. I have a ton of work to do to get ready for online teaching starting in a few weeks, so there's that. Then I started researching other states, other cities. As the fires near here have started to get a little more under control, I stopped feeling the need to run from them and started thinking with less urgency about leaving the state. I've always been adamant in wanting to stay here because I've been here almost a third of my life now, have a wonderful community of friends, have animals to care for, and, despite the fires and high cost of living, there is a lot I love about this region. It's still clear that if I am to stay, I must stay in this house. Rents have gone up so much everywhere else, and there's almost nothing to rent--it's crazy. But H was my family here. I don't have family here now. I started thinking more about whether I will want to stay, long-term, in an area that was expensive for a couple with 1 1/2 the income and will be that much more expensive for me on my own. It seems unlikely I could ever buy a house here on my own unless I win the lottery. Maybe, with a much better job, I could save like crazy for 10 years and manage. That would depend on a lot of factors.
I started entertaining the prospect of where I might want to go if I didn't live here. I started spending hours researching other places. Short answer: I really don't know. What I always wanted was to live where I live now.
bttrfly, you advised me not to try to plan too far in advance. For the last 14 months, I've been operating on the assumption that I would stay here, that post-D I would give myself a year to figure out if I wanted to make any big changes, that no life decisions would need to be made in the midst of what is already such a life-altering shift. But I've been wondering if being willing to leave my life here and move in search of another one is something that would benefit me in negotiation wth H, monetarily and/or emotionally, in that it may mean a quicker agreement, and less time with this alien H. Could any positives there really outweigh what I'd be giving up? How can I know that in the present?
That said, when is this process even going to start? Is he really never going to act on the decision he made last year? Am I really going to have to file myself at some point? I mentioned to IC re-reading the letter H wrote me last fall, the one announcing his decision to file. Even though he was drinking all the time and, from my perspective, not in a healthy place, he was able to write a letter that was somewhat apologetic and rational-sounding. Sure, it oversimplified a lot (you know, the whole I need to D to be happy, all my problems are solved), but that's to be expected. I feel like this is echoing Kindly's post now--it's so hard for me to imagine how someone could make that kind of decision, announce it, and then never act on it. Of course IC reminded me that people with mental health issues often don't act rationally. I mean, every post on this board is proof of that, right? It's par for the course for MLCers.
bttrfly, how have the chickens settled in? How are your friends that had to evacuate? Kindly, I made some cake last week in honor of my friend's birthday (though she doesn't live nearby, it was a good excuse for cake!). I'm not sure what's up next. Brownies always sound good!
Since I last posted, my focus has been almost entirely on me, and I haven't spent any time reading articles and websites in an attempt to understand H.
Good for you Cardinal! Not easy to stop this hunt for answers but I deleted all the tabs I had open on my phone and felt a sense of relief. I’ve read so much that it all started to blend together and was getting me nowhere mentally. When I do focus on myself I find much more peace so there’s my answer as to where the value is right now.
bttrfly, you advised me not to try to plan too far in advance. For the last 14 months, I've been operating on the assumption that I would stay here, that post-D I would give myself a year to figure out if I wanted to make any big changes, that no life decisions would need to be made in the midst of what is already such a life-altering shift. But I've been wondering if being willing to leave my life here and move in search of another one is something that would benefit me in negotiation wth H, monetarily and/or emotionally, in that it may mean a quicker agreement, and less time with this alien H. Could any positives there really outweigh what I'd be giving up? How can I know that in the present?
Been doing lots of thinking on all of this too Cardinal...for the longest time I felt like having to leave my house was another “failure” on top of the D (none of which has happened yet) one day at a time and only deal with what’s immediately on the plate. But this is hard being a planner and not liking suspense. Many of my close circle don’t understand why I would want to stay here...but we’ve accomplished so much here, I love the area and have completed so many Reno’s to make it home. I’m coming around to a mindset that perhaps the answers will present themselves when it’s time. I dunno?
Yummmm I love any excuse for cake and would love a piece!!!
Since I last posted, my focus has been almost entirely on me, and I haven't spent any time reading articles and websites in an attempt to understand H. I have a ton of work to do to get ready for online teaching starting in a few weeks, so there's that. Then I started researching other states, other cities. As the fires near here have started to get a little more under control, I stopped feeling the need to run from them and started thinking with less urgency about leaving the state. I've always been adamant in wanting to stay here because I've been here almost a third of my life now, have a wonderful community of friends, have animals to care for, and, despite the fires and high cost of living, there is a lot I love about this region. It's still clear that if I am to stay, I must stay in this house. Rents have gone up so much everywhere else, and there's almost nothing to rent--it's crazy. But H was my family here. I don't have family here now. I started thinking more about whether I will want to stay, long-term, in an area that was expensive for a couple with 1 1/2 the income and will be that much more expensive for me on my own. It seems unlikely I could ever buy a house here on my own unless I win the lottery. Maybe, with a much better job, I could save like crazy for 10 years and manage. That would depend on a lot of factors.
I started entertaining the prospect of where I might want to go if I didn't live here. I started spending hours researching other places. Short answer: I really don't know. What I always wanted was to live where I live now.
It's ok not to know right now. The point is, you're open to at least the possibility. That is huge. Great job!
bttrfly, you advised me not to try to plan too far in advance. For the last 14 months, I've been operating on the assumption that I would stay here, that post-D I would give myself a year to figure out if I wanted to make any big changes, that no life decisions would need to be made in the midst of what is already such a life-altering shift. But I've been wondering if being willing to leave my life here and move in search of another one is something that would benefit me in negotiation wth H, monetarily and/or emotionally, in that it may mean a quicker agreement, and less time with this alien H. Could any positives there really outweigh what I'd be giving up? How can I know that in the present?
I don't know Card. I really don't. I'm foregoing alimony because I don't want the BS attached. My peace of mind is worth more to me right now, as is my son's peace. You have to come to that place on your own, and you will in time. Trust that.
That said, when is this process even going to start? Is he really never going to act on the decision he made last year? Am I really going to have to file myself at some point? I mentioned to IC re-reading the letter H wrote me last fall, the one announcing his decision to file. Even though he was drinking all the time and, from my perspective, not in a healthy place, he was able to write a letter that was somewhat apologetic and rational-sounding. Sure, it oversimplified a lot (you know, the whole I need to D to be happy, all my problems are solved), but that's to be expected. I feel like this is echoing Kindly's post now--it's so hard for me to imagine how someone could make that kind of decision, announce it, and then never act on it. Of course IC reminded me that people with mental health issues often don't act rationally. I mean, every post on this board is proof of that, right? It's par for the course for MLCers.
My exh was an absolute pr!c&. Once the house was sold and he had money in his pocket, he started with the ILYs ... and got monstery when I told him to stop. It was radio silence on D for months and months. We're talking 8 months. Finally he said, 'well, I guess we'd better get on with it.'
At the time, obviously i did not know he was in another relationship. I told him it was up to him, I was not going to make the move. This was his divorce. I felt really strongly about that because I didn't want to tell our son I was the one who filed. I put the onus strictly on the person who left - exh. That was my choice, and here we are 4 years later and I'm glad I played it that way, for my son's sake. However, we were not living together and had little to no contact. Your sitch is different.
bttrfly, how have the chickens settled in? How are your friends that had to evacuate? Kindly, I made some cake last week in honor of my friend's birthday (though she doesn't live nearby, it was a good excuse for cake!). I'm not sure what's up next. Brownies always sound good!
The chickens are completely sublimely happy in their new space. Overnight Belle grew wattles. I'm not sure what kind of a bird Violet is. I posted on the chicken board and one person said another marans. Remains somewhat unclear to me. They all get along well and are very peaceful and content. They do not have an egg box yet. I'm thinking of just setting aside interior space since the coop is 4x6 and there's only 5 birds. Thoughts? The buff orps are 17 weeks and the remaining three are 16 weeks. Ty for asking about them and my friend. She's seriously thinking of leaving the state as she's not willing to go through this every year.
How are your girls?? Your friends?
Hello! Short update just got longer after my morning with H—bear with me, if you can!
Part 1:
I have continued to be so busy with job and planning upcoming classes, and then last week, after I'd really come to peace with leaving this state and started to get excited about all the other possibilities, I got a job interview here. And then, of course, two days later, a job offer. I hope the universe it telling me my time here is not done--that's the way I'm trying to see it. It's an entry-level job with great benefits and pretty good pay that will finally allow me to be financially independent from H, but the rental market is so bare and so expensive, it doesn't pay quite enough to give me the freedom to move out to another (inevitably much more expensive) rental. I will still make 20k less than H, but I don't know how much support I will be entitled to now, and I also wonder if the court will still order him to help with my L expenses. I had been dreaming about moving far away and cutting ties with this house H refuses to leave, even if that meant leaving the chickens, but now, if I accept the offer, I'm in the same stalemate house-wise.
I have pretty much decided to accept the job, because there is room for growth in the next year and hopefully more money, because I need job experience to transition to supporting myself and future opportunities, and because it's for an organization whose work I believe in. Everyone tells me this job doesn't mean I'm stuck here--I can choose to quit and leave in six months if I want to. But I don't feel like I have quite the freedom I had before the job offer--that I lost some power with H because I'm back to needing to stay in this house. Turning down the offer isn't really an option--I know how hard it is to get a job in this market, in these crazy times, how lucky I would be to have my own health insurance and steady income, and to work from home for the time being. I hope some of you here can offer encouragement, as I'm stressed about working from home with H, with learning a new job while teaching two classes when my energy level is waning after a year+ of this situation (my confidence is still lower than it should be after this last year, I'm realizing), all while dealing with H's moods and no longer being able to escape the house to go to work.
Part 2:
I'd been meaning to come here and post that update, but I have another set of questions after a not-surprising confrontation from H. I'd been planning to open my own account next month now that I'll have my own income, and to tell H that I would start paying half of the rent, utilities, and internet. Today I asked him to move my desk out of his room (it used to be my office/our guest room), because I'll need to start using it. I said, Doesn't have to be today, but sometime this week would be great--thanks!
I then expected a passive aggressive confrontation of some kind to follow, and about an hour later, got one.
In summary: H went out, came back, started tearing his room apart. I knew he would probably start rearranging his room, because he has mountains of stuff on my desk all the time, and nowhere to put it. He then came to my room and asked if he could move the TV from the living room to his room, because I get to use it, but he never gets to, because I "go to bed so early, he can't ever watch TV or play video games!" (My room doesn't have a door, just a curtain, and it faces the living room.)
I wasn't sure in the moment, so I said, Hmm. Well, I do watch it sometimes... He was already turning around when I followed up with, Could you use your headphones and use it even if I'm in bed?
Characteristically, he cut me off and said, "Never mind! It's fine!" as he was walking back to his room.
A few minutes later, he came back to say, "By the way, starting next month, I'm only paying half the rent, half the utilities, and half the internet. Welcome to the real world! And I can't have you pay for car registration because it's under my name, but if you want to drive the car, you're paying for the insurance, and I'm taking my name off of it."
I bristled because, once again, he's telling me what he's going to grant me and what he's not. I wanted to bring up the fact that he's basically been paying all of these things in lieu of support, but didn't. Since I was planning to get my own account and start paying for half of these joint expenses anyway, I let it go.
I did say that if he would sign the car over to me, I would pay for registration, insurance, everything. But if it's not my car, I said, I'm not sure if it makes sense for me to pay all of the insurance.
"I'm planning on giving you the car when we're actually divorced, but I've got to take care of things first. For now, if you want to drive it, you pay the insurance. That's how it works." (I didn't point out that I could get a court order if he refused to let me drive it--in other words, he thinks he has all the power, but that's not quite accurate. This would only inflame things, so I used this knowledge to reassure myself.)
Next, I brought up moving the TV and said I would think about it, because maybe I could then move my desk to the living room. I'm going to have to WFH in either that spot or in the entry way right outside his room. H made it clear that he knows I'm going to be teaching classes (I'm pretty sure that's why he decided to stop paying all the rent), but I didn't tell him about my other job offer.
I think because I stayed calm we were able to discuss pros and cons of desk location for a minute--he WFH in the kitchen, and the pro to me working from the entryway is that I can close a door that separates his room and entryway from the rest of the house. He of course is worried about whether he will be able to listen to music in his room during the day while I'm working. I didn't say much to this except that I would let him know what I decide about where I want to work. He ended with a comment about how the TV should be his because he paid for it, "but whatever." (Apparently anything we bought while we were married should be his because he paid for it, i.e. he made most of the income. Uh huh. But, in the end, am I going to fight over the TV? No.)
Questions:
1. Is it in fact fair for me to pay all of the insurance on the car if the car is still in his name? If he would just sign it over like he says he intends to do, it would be simpler because I would pay for registration and everything, and he wouldn't have to deal with it. I didn't keep pressing this point though. The way I see it, if I can afford to pay the insurance, it's not a big deal, and at least I get to drive the car without having to get a court order to keep driving it. I think it was more the way he said, "Pay this or you're not using the car," that I was objecting to, than actually paying the insurance.
2. Did I do okay in this exchange? I am still bothered that he continues to come and TELL me what I can and can't have, what I will pay for, etc., rather than approaching it as a discussion. It's clear he still does not see me as an equal, and thinks it is entirely within his power to order me to do whatever. This would be a problem if I wasn't starting a new job, as I would have to involve a L to get temporary support if he was demanding that I pay half of joint expenses when I didn't have enough income to do so. BUT since I was planning on bringing up splitting finances by the end of the month and my paying him half anyway, because thank goodness I have a job now, I just let him think he was running the show on this, because I saw no point in explaining that his attitude and assumptions were passive aggressive, unfair, or unkind. I'm getting what I wanted: desk out of his room, split finances.
3. On where to WFH: I should choose where to work based on where I want to work--where I think I could have the most focus and privacy; I shouldn't choose based on whether H will be able to listen to music or not. Isn't it fair to ask him to use headphones if he's listening to music during regular work hours, no matter where my desk is? (His music is loud no matter where you are in the small house.) Then again, maybe if I choose to work from the living room, which I think is his preference, he would be less apt to passive-aggressively start listening to music during the day anyway. In the end, I should be able to try out one spot and move to the other one if I choose to.
3. My instinct was to bring up this supposed D again, or to say, again, when is work on this supposed agreement starting? To again suggest mediation. But that feels like me pushing again and getting no results in return--I pushed for financial docs 6 weeks ago, and, no surprise, still have not gotten any. Should I be proactively doing anything else here? I have a retainer ready to sign as soon as I decide I need a L. I'm still holding out hope that H will decide to leave on his own. I'm not sure if getting served papers would push me to retain L right away or if it would depend on what else was happening. I think my friends are hoping I would just file, but I'm not quite there yet. There's not a lot in our joint checking, and I've been paying my credit card every month out of it, so I'm not going to demand half of that even—I'm just opening my new account and starting fresh. I still don't know, however, how much is exactly in the savings account I can't access.
I think I'm trying to reassure myself that I wasn't stepped over, even though it feels like it, since I didn't say much. All in all, I have some anger over how he continues to interact with me, but I did better this time at not engaging with him or trying to get him to see that, for instance, we are still married. Saying nothing still kinda feels like I'm not standing up for myself (even though in this case I think things were working out as I'd planned, and that's why I didn't speak up more). Mind-reading, but his attitude says he walked away likely thinking "She's finally gonna have to pay her share! I've been so nice in not demanding it until now," and still assuming he's got me under his thumb. There was/is still the temptation to want to reflect his warped reality back to him, but I know that is a lost cause. No matter what I say/do, he won't see things from any other perspective, and anything I say will be used against me.
I want to be able to walk away from an interaction with H, no matter how he acts, feeling confident that I am saying/doing/not-saying/not-doing all the right things, but I'm not there yet either. I do, however, feel way better than the last time I was drawn into his spewing and tried to have a conversation as if I was talking to old H. I'm not regretting anything I said, so that's the upside to not saying much!
I’m coming around to a mindset that perhaps the answers will present themselves when it’s time. I dunno?
I too saw leaving as another failure for a long time. And this mindset once again proved true, as suddenly I was open to considering other possibilities that came with leaving. I couldn't have gotten there any sooner than I did. My friend said it was as if I'd been "buffering" for a month (though really it's probably more accurate to say that it started on some level at BD). Once I got the interview, I realized that I was really ready to leave and felt almost a little disappointed when I got the job offer. And, as I wrote above, I've been conflicted about staying now. You remind me that I should probably look at this again with the answers in time mindset. Here's an answer for now: I'm staying and have a job. Maybe different answers will come in time.
The point is, you're open to at least the possibility. That is huge.
Thanks for saying that, bttrfly. It did feel huge to find myself open to the possibility, and then almost ready to embrace it. This feels like a really big shift--the focus is so much more on me and what I want my future to look like. Do I still have times when I think of a memory and wish things were different? Yeah. I was reading one of May's updates recently and realized some little part of me still hopes for reconciliation in the future. I suppose I just have to acknowledge that desire still exists, and let it exist alongside the steps I'm taking for my own future.
That was my choice, and here we are 4 years later and I'm glad I played it that way, for my son's sake. However, we were not living together and had little to no contact. Your sitch is different.
It will be interesting to see how I feel over the next few months. I think if we weren't living together and had no contact, I would be more at peace. If we are both still living here next year and H has not filed, I might feel differently about really wanting him to own his decision to D.
I am glad your chickens are happy and enjoying their home! We just have a few small partitions in our coop to act as nesting boxes, and they usually all fight over the same spot. Our chickens are molting, and there are feathers everywhere. I'm going to have to clean out the coop soon. Also, I am feeling like your friend--I can't imagine living in this state long-term and going through these fires year after year. If I actually owned a house and had to evacuate, or rebuild, as so many have... it would be even harder to want to stay. All that and the cost of living? It's a lot to handle.
Hi Cardinal,
Congratulations on the job!! That is awesome!! I think it is terrific and agree with all your friends that starting a job doesn't mean you can't quit in a few months if you decide it is best for you to move to a different city. This gives you a lot more freedom and control and ability to make decisions without worrying about your H and what he will or won't do financially. Also, it helps you to establish a broader work history -- always easier to move jobs when you're in one than when you aren't.
I think you handled all that very, very well. Really impressive. You seem far less drawn in emotionally to his garbage and the very fact that you were so calm in the moment, can reflect on what makes most sense for you and what is driving any need to push back, is really really great.
I do think that to the extent you can simply not care what is going on in his mind and whether or not he thinks he can order you around, or tell you what you do/don't deserve financially, the better. If he feels more in control *and* you are getting what you want/need, that is better for you as you're spared his BS.
On the desk location-- yes, choose the best place to WFH for you. I don't think it is asking too much to have him wear headphones (it is probably not a bad idea for you to as well). And if it doesn't work out, move somewhere else.
On the car insurance... if it were me, I would probably just pay the insurance too, not pay the registration or whatever if he isn't going to sign it over, and take it as a free car for awhile. you might, though, look into buying a car of your own-- without knowing any of the numbers, I could imagine that there is a chance that you could lease something pretty inexpensively (or maybe buy a used electric car which would also save on gas?) and you might even get a better insurance deal with just your name on it than your H's too, depending on his driving history.
You being stepped on or standing up for yourself-- to me, it seems like a perspective thing. if you know you're doing the right thing for yourself, you're doing the right thing and standing up for yourself, even if you did that just by saying nothing. If he thinks he got to squash you but you aren't squashed... who cares what he thinks? You know the truth and can be secure in the knowledge that you're doing the right thing for yourself and for the right reasons. Him feeling smug for getting one over you is no different from him thinking all the other ridiculous things he's been thinking.
Sounds like things are going well for you, Cardinal... you're doing great.
Congratulations on the job!
I think you handled the situation well. You've given him plenty to think about. As for the insurance, if you are the main driver of the car, then pay it. As for the registration, I wouldn't take that on until he has signed the car ownership over to you and you have a new registration/title for it in your name.
He thinks he is king of the kingdom and going to dictate to you what you will or will not get. Wait until he discovers you have a job and don't need to rely on him for everything.
Giving him options when it comes to the TV was great. Use that tactic whenever you can.
Hi Cardinal!
So happy for you with the new job! Way to go! Your analysis is correct...stay for now see where things go...one day at a time focusing on you.
You did really well during the “talk”. I agree with job’s feedback above about the car and desk situation. Always remember it’s your house too...he doesn’t get to make you feel uncomfortable...trust me I know easier said than done with H in our face, us trying to detach and avoid any spew sessions...right? Lol It’s definitely a matter of finding a balance.
My instinct was to bring up this supposed D again, or to say, again, when is work on this supposed agreement starting? To again suggest mediation. But that feels like me pushing again and getting no results in return--I pushed for financial docs 6 weeks ago, and, no surprise, still have not gotten any. Should I be proactively doing anything else here? I have a retainer ready to sign as soon as I decide I need a L. I'm still holding out hope that H will decide to leave on his own. I'm not sure if getting served papers would push me to retain L right away or if it would depend on what else was happening. I think my friends are hoping I would just file, but I'm not quite there yet.
I can only compare to my situation, and I have firmly decided I will not “help” him make any decisions or move things along when it comes to “his” D. This is not “my” D...I don’t have to own it therefore I choose to comply with any legal Movement when I have to but not push anything forward. In my ‘sitch I feel like his L is now using scare tactics that I will do everything in my power to ignore and not let the fear creep back in.
You get to choose what you want to do and unfortunately there’s no handbook on this...as similar as our situations are the people are all so different (I think anyway lol!)... my point being do what feels right for you and your values.
As for bringing up anything like “the supposed D” For example, I wouldn’t. I constantly struggle with this too. I think what happens with me is that the rational, sane thinking mind wants progress, forward movement, understanding of some sort..but MLC doesn’t work that way. I just reached out for advice on communication with H too. I’m learning that 9 if not 10 times out of 10 silence is golden. Trying to communicate with my H right now only brings more conflict he doesn’t want to hear it and can’t understand any of it anyway.
You did well Cardinal...keep doing you. Can’t wait to hear more about the new job.
(((Cardinal)))
here's what i've learned and had reinforced over this summer: i do not have to attend every fight I am invited to. I still have not responded to OW's two emails. I will not be responding to them at any point in the future. By not responding I am saving myself, and by extension, my son, probably another 20 years of grief and misery.
YOU get to decide what you want to participate in moving forward. Decide what is in your own best interests and proceed from there. It is ok to not answer, to walk away, to say, "thank you for your perspective. I will need to think about that and get back to you" or any other response that keeps you in control of your own life with as much peace as possible.
Congrats on the job. You can also point out in a divorce negotiation that you will need ramp up time. Just a thought.
Chickens are now starting to mildly bump chests and chase or crowd each other a little bit. They have more than plenty of room, but are going through their bratty teen years I guess as more facial changes emerge. I've done more work on the coop and run, from a decorative perspective, and am enjoying reading lisa steele's blog posts. Wish I could send you photos.
I'm proud of how you are handling yourself and your sitch. You are a woman of dignity and courage. xoxo
Thank you for sharing your perspectives, everyone, for the encouragement and congrats! It's starting to sink in that I will no longer be financially dependent on H, and that is helping me feel stronger. It's also sinking in that I will be staying here for a while, and I think I'm starting to accept that I won't be making any big changes just yet. The timing of the offer is starting to feel more and more meant-to-be in many respects, and the team I will be working with has been very flexible and supportive in my starting at reduced hours since I was already contracted to teach this fall. I got my current minimum wage job just before BD, almost on a whim, and it has provided me with much-needed escape and at least some financial independence since BD. Now it feels like this new job comes as I'm entering a new phase post-BD. Rather than question a million things or see it as a block to my leaving, I'm going to look at it as an opportunity absolutely meant for me to take right now, one meant to lead me to whatever is next.
You being stepped on or standing up for yourself-- to me, it seems like a perspective thing. if you know you're doing the right thing for yourself, you're doing the right thing and standing up for yourself, even if you did that just by saying nothing. If he thinks he got to squash you but you aren't squashed... who cares what he thinks? You know the truth and can be secure in the knowledge that you're doing the right thing for yourself and for the right reasons. Him feeling smug for getting one over you is no different from him thinking all the other ridiculous things he's been thinking.
This is so true, may--the last line really makes sense! Your post really helped me. I'm still reading along with your thread and rooting for you, always, even if I haven't had much to add lately.
Giving him options when it comes to the TV was great. Use that tactic whenever you can.
Thanks for your advice, job! I am about to tell him he can move it to his room--I really don't care if the TV is "his," and if it benefits me now by giving me another option for WFH, why not? I am thinking letting go of whatever doesn't matter to me property-wise is a good idea in general, as maybe it will give me more leverage later on the things that do matter. Plus, I stay aligned with my values, in not allowing possessions create more conflict.
I do feel like I'm dealing with a toddler sometimes, and not a teenager--the pattern has been that H says, "Well, X *should* be mine, because I paid for it!" or whatever--because his story has become that I was on vacation for the entire marriage while he made all the money. He doesn't take any responsibility for the life we created together--as usual, anything he didn't speak up about or was fine with until BD is now my fault. He changed the password on our Alexa which I'd been using, and I asked him if I could continue to use it while we were both living here (again, not really caring if he ended up with it in the end or not--I just wanted access to the lists I had already made). He immediately escalated and said, "That should be mine, because my uncle gave it to *me* for Christmas!" I just said, I'm not planning on fighting you for it; I'm just wondering if I can continue to use it for the time being." He then said he hasn't used it for months and months and even deleted the app off his phone, which I pretty much figured. He's not even using it, but his default stance is to say, MINE! Is that MLC talking or just someone who is holding onto control in any way he can?
The gift of time has definitely been helpful in that I feel like I've let go of the need to spend energy or money trying to get any material object in the end. I hope that will serve me well in this process, and allow me to gain in other ways, and to hold on to what
does matter.
I'm also realizing H is repeating patterns he repeated throughout our M, like not being open to discussion. If he every did speak up about something he wanted to do or do differently from what I was proposing, I would say, well, let's talk about it, or I would say, okay, let's do what you want to do, but he would always get short and moody and immediately say, "Never mind! Just do what you want to do! It's fine!" If I tried to choose what he wanted to do after that, he would REFUSE. If I tried to talk about what he wanted, he would say, "It's over! Drop it! I don't care anymore." He would assure me that he really didn't care, he wasn't even thinking about it.
This is the same thing he's doing now. He's not capable of having a discussion about an agreement or splitting things up. All he can do is, for once, I imagine he feels, assert what he wants and tell me what I will or will not get/do. He either gets what he wants, or if I question it, like in the case of moving the TV, says immediately, "I don't care! Leave it!" so that his narrative becomes about his, once again, giving in to me or giving up something so that I can have it.
Because of IC, because of this board, I'm now able to step back and recognize that this is all about him. I can see that he hasn't worked to really recognize or change any of his patterns. This is why a D won't automatically bring him peace and happiness. He's still going to be full of resentment and the same pattern is going to repeat in other areas of his life—it started with his mother and repeated with me. But here I am, still hoping that he will look at himself more deeply one day and see that all of this wasn't 100% my fault. I do still feel that I need to be out of his life completely before he would ever be open to the possibility of seeing things differently.
Funny enough, he's been in a good mood since our "talk." No wonder--he's looking forward to more money and I didn't have to protest anything so, yes, job, he still gets to play king of the castle. Or it's just another cycle of his moods. I have to keep in mind it's never really a result of anything I do or don't do, even if it seems that way. I really need to keep working on seeing his tantrums or moods as a result of decisions he is making, and not a reflection on how I handled an interaction with him.
Also, this:
I’m learning that 9 if not 10 times out of 10 silence is golden. Trying to communicate with my H right now only brings more conflict he doesn’t want to hear it and can’t understand any of it anyway.
I have to keep in mind it's never really a result of anything I do or don't do, even if it seems that way. I really need to keep working on seeing his tantrums or moods as a result of decisions he is making, and not a reflection on how I handled an interaction with him.
I dubbed this the "Itchy Butt Syndrome". One day in the middle of crisis my ex was being really irritable. I spent the day dancing around, trying to soothe him, mindreading what I might have said or done to set him off. At the end of the day he mentioned that he had an itchy rash on his butt that had been bothering him all day!
I love that, kml, perfect name!
After I gave the okay to move the TV this morning, I came home to find H telling me how he'd gotten it set up in his room and cleaned under the console where it used to be. He's moving the remaining components neither of us are using right now out to the garage so I can have room for a desk in the living room if I want. He's all in this super accommodating great mood and is cleaning up his room, which has been a dump for the last year, organizing stuff with new cheap shelves, etc. It's depressing me because I just think he's that much happier in his little room and will never leave. I mean, he was already mostly holed up in there, but now he's got a TV... I don't want us to be friendly roommates at this point. A few months ago I probably would have been happy he was being so friendly and "normal," but at this point it doesn't feel genuine at all, because I know tomorrow he could be spewing about how I don't deserve to be here or all of this is my fault, etc etc. It just feels fake. Plus, I feel like I've been in this situation so long, I lose sight of the fact that this is not okay--he's been dating someone and wanting a D and hasn't filed the D. He's not being kind to me whether he is friendly in the moment or not, because that kindness would entail moving out, or divorcing me before he started dating, or...
Also left from the console--a box of letters that has many of the letters I wrote him and letters he wrote me when we were dating and in our early M, plus photos of us from college/dating and after. At what point do I need to go through those? I'd like to give him the letters I wrote him and some of the photos--whether he keeps them or not is not my problem. But it just seems so wrong to leave a M and all those real, concrete artifacts of it behind, even if you are moving on. (Not to say he wouldn't do just that.) Is this something that I just put off until one of us is actually moving out? Same with all the photos of us still up all over the house.
He's not gonna want the letters. If they are meaningful to you keep them. Don't go through them unless you're looking for a big cry. Just put them away. At some time in the future you may want them. If you give them to him he'll throw them away or leave them behind (even though he might possibly want them in the future). No WAS on here that I can remember ever actually wanted those things at this point. Put them up in your closet out of sight for now. Take down the wedding photos if you have them and replace them with something cheery about adventures. This is a good opportunity to signal that you are dropping the rope, moving forward. It may unsettle him to see you're not pining away, and that can be good. You're right to remind yourself he's seeing an OW right now.
I still have letters my ex wrote me when we were dating - I haven't read them since before my divorce. They're stored up in a closet somewhere. My kids might find them interesting decades from now. Right now they'd still be an open wound even though we've been divorced 11 years. Actually, now I'm kind of curious to read them and see if the early red flags of his narcissism are there and I just missed them?
Oh and as for the cheeriness about reorganizing his room? Typical MLC behavior. When my brother had his MLC and dumped his 3rd wife, he took her with him to see the new furniture he'd bought for his new singles pad! It's like their brains can't separate their excitement at their new life that they want to share with the person they are leaving behind in the old life!
BTW - if you want a tv, ask around. People upgrade their TVs so often now, you might have a friend who has an old one they could lend you or give you, or you might find a used one very cheap online.
It's good you're not attached to the material things - like the alexa nonsense. It's good to have some bargaining chips though so don't let him railroad you into giving him everything he wants.
Hi dear Cardinal. I have been meaning to chime in with congrats on the job offer. I see you following your intuition and allowing yourself to be guided by the universe's divine wisdom (some may call that God, but that is not my language). You are being led and you are listening; two key components to navigating your way out of this challenging season in your life. ((Cardinal))
I loved your last post on my thread, but wanted to reply here on yours because I feel like my answer is a good follow up to KML's comment about maintaining some bargaining chips. Her comment is another version of a boundary and I am interested in exploring all variations of boundaries right now. But firstly, your post on my thread:
Another helpful tidbit that I learned in that session (and have heard repeatedly since in a short period of time, so the universe is really speaking here): mentally ill people need REALLY clear boundaries. IC helped me choreograph some boundaries surrounding the spewing which I (unsurprisingly) had an opportunity to execute the following day. And it worked.
Was this you pretty much saying, "H, I will not listen to you attack me" during the last spewing?
Pretty much. I believe I said something along the lines of 'I am no longer interested in your opinion of me and will no longer listen to you say mean things to me, so I am hanging up now...' And I subsequently told my kids: 'No one is allowed to speak to me disrespectfully any longer, I will not tolerate it from any person any more.' (I can't just hang up or walk away from the kids, but there are the two versions). The verbiage is hard because you need to make this about YOU and not about H's behavior.
And on to what KML said about the 'stuff': a boundary around this may be to pick your battles but don't play all your cards at once, if that makes sense. You need to keep some bargaining chips, as she said.
And to further the boundary conversation (which you touched on in my thread); NOT having boundaries is demeaning to the other party. Why? Because if you don't have boundaries, you are essentially saying one of two things: 1)
I am worthless (which reflects poorly on the other party's choice); or 2)
you are powerless because you can do anything to me and I will not react, you are so beneath me/not worth my reaction/I am bigger than you. Which is the exact opposite of what we intended the other party to feel when we dimmed down, took it all on the chin and didn't state a clear boundary.
So find those boundaries, girl. It really is the most compassionate thing you can do for H (and yourself) at this point. I see you. (((Cardi)))
congrats cardinal! I'm happy for you that you don't have the financial stuff looming over your head anymore. I'm cheering you on!
Hi Cardinal,
I am happy for you! Congratulations on the job!
You are doing well with your “teen roommate” keep it up. Those of us who have one, know how difficult that can be at times.
PLC
Thanks for the advice, kml and Sage, and for the kind words of encouragement, PLC and wooba!
I've come across some things that belong to H as I was cleaning out my desk. I decided to just collect those kind of things in an envelope and give him the envelope when (I'll think positively here) he moves out. I don't know what to do with the pictures of us. They seem pointless to keep now. I guess it's best to just put them in a box for the time being, as you say, kml. The wedding albums--it's clear all of this bothers me. I feel like he should have to bear the physical evidence of our M as much as I do, even if that's deciding to stick it under his own bed or throw it away. If I have to make those decisions, he should too, instead of taking the easy route of just leaving it all with me and pretending it doesn't exist. I know he does have some cards and other tokens from me in his nightstand, so at least he will have some stuff he has to deal with moving or keeping hidden away or tossing or whatever. I thought about all the photos his mom has of us, and that brought me a little comfort. He can choose to forget we were ever married if he wants, but it doesn't change the fact that we were.
And on to what KML said about the 'stuff': a boundary around this may be to pick your battles but don't play all your cards at once, if that makes sense. You need to keep some bargaining chips, as she said.
Sage, I'm so glad you posted this! I wasn't thinking about this in terms of boundaries at all until you pointed this out. It's one thing to know what I will or won't spend the energy fighting for, but it's another to just keep giving, giving, giving, I think. I don't want my not caring about, say, a TV, to get confused with my accepting what H has previously expressed--that I don't deserve anything. I think this is what I was trying to figure out a few posts ago, when may said what does it matter what H thinks, as long as I know why I'm doing something (or not). I don't think I have well-defined boundaries for myself in this area, and that's why everything feels muddy.
IC reminded me to keep repeating that everything is joint property, no matter what I choose, no matter what H says about whether it should be his or not. He might yell about our M not being a partnership so he can avoid responsibility, but that doesn't make what he's saying true. She reminded me not to drink his koolaid, and I feel like sometimes the koolaid is on slow drip, and I'm not conscious of it. And then I remember it and get angry.
For instance, I stayed calm during the last interaction as he told me what I would pay and when (because I'd already been planning to get my own account and stop depositing my checks into our joint account), but post-interaction, my anger starts to rise up, and it feels like I'm not defining or enforcing a boundary. Why? I'm trying to figure this out. Maybe someone here can help me untangle this.
I'm starting to feel like he has crossed and crossed and crossed a huge boundary, which is: I will not be disrespected! I will not accept this treatment from anyone! This treatment being: my H wants a D but does not file and instead continues living here with me, his wife, while dating. He does not/cannot see how that is disrespectful to me. What that says to me is, "You don't matter anymore. You don't matter, even if you were and technically still are my wife. You don't matter, you barely exist in my world, so why bother with the mess of filing for a D?" (I'm putting aside, for a moment, that fact that he also occasionally tells me I have no right to live here.) Or, now, "You matter only because you are now able to pay half of the joint expenses." Whether that stems from MLC or not, whether H can see it that way or not, isn't that what his actions are saying? I decide whether or not I accept that behavior, right? Have I been implicitly accepting it without fully realizing it? I don't think I've succeeded in not internalizing, at least partly, his warped point of view.
Because if you don't have boundaries, you are essentially saying one of two things: 1) I am worthless (which reflects poorly on the other party's choice); or 2) you are powerless because you can do anything to me and I will not react, you are so beneath me/not worth my reaction/I am bigger than you.
Am I essentially conveying that to him by (outwardly) accepting the status quo?
Maybe I am starting to realize how much it has crept into my subconscious, and I resent him for that.It's like I live under his assumption that we are roommates and therefore I owe him X, Y, Z, but then I have a moment of recognition and remember I never chose to be roommates with him! I chose enter into a partnership with him in M. He ended that partnership. I don't want to be his roommate--I don't want to have discussions about splitting the internet bill and water usage. Why am I still here? For a while it was because I had hope that H would turn around. That's no longer a reason. I'm still here in this house because I believe I am entitled to it--he wants a new life, he should leave. Even as I've come around to being more open to leaving myself in the last month, I still believe that he should be the one to leave. Another reason I'm here is that I can't afford the rent of another place, even on my soon-to-be new salary. (And I think the new salary means I may not be entitled to support, or at least very little.)
Why haven't I filed? I still want him to own his decision. Faced with challenges in a M, my choice is to at least attempt to work through those challenges. My vows were for better and worse. I don't have control over what he chooses, and obviously he doesn't choose any of that. Whatever his reason(s), this is where we are. When DnJ says standing is for you, this is what I think of: I choose to live by my values and beliefs--at this point, even if I do hold out hope H will come back to the H I knew someday, that's not the thing driving me. Best-case, a great house would come up for rent, magically at this same price (hundreds lower than current market), and I could live my values and beliefs elsewhere, with separate finances, and not care about what the heck H was doing with his life. But now he's going to have a roommate (me) who's paying him for half the expenses--why should he ever lift a finger to D? To move?
I fantasize about calmly saying to him next time he brings up what costs we should be splitting, "Funny, that we're still married, and you've been dating for months now. Do you ever think about the fact that we're still married?" Or, you know, when I'm on conferences at home for new job, loudly referring to
my husband over and over just to remind him and hopefully push him to, uh, start the steps to change that status. I know how pointless all of that is. I know! But especially when he is acting outwardly happy and like everything is normal, I want to remind him (and me), Hello--this is not normal! You are living as if we are D and we aren't! (Remember when I just wanted to be friends, at least, with H? I think I'm finally accepting this is not how friends treat each other, and I don't want that version of friendship.) Definitely channeling some anger from May's thread and her ability to lay out the facts for her H!
I sometimes wonder: if I wasn't so resistant to (and probably accurate to say scared of) losing so much money in this process, would I decide to file, simply because it is a formality at this point, doesn't preclude future R, and because I'm ready to embrace this new life on my own? Would I have hired a L to hopefully help get him out of this house by now? (Maybe if they had assured me that would be easy, it would be a different story.) One thing this last year has taught me is that I really, really value feeling secure, and financially secure. All of that was taken away with BD. It's one reason I felt ready, recently, to leave this state--it's so expensive, especially when you don't have the benefit of two incomes. I do not want to lose the money I have saved up in the last year on my own, the money that will help me get my footing in this next, independent part of my life, to a D I didn't want in the first place. Isn't that the main thing stopping him--not wanting to face the financial reality? Does that make me as irrational as he is? Oh, boy. Didn't this post start out about boundaries? I do think it's all related.
Cardinal, you sound so strong. You are asking ALL the right questions of yourself.
I want to gently point out where boundaries are and are not in your post.
IC reminded me to keep repeating that everything is joint property, no matter what I choose, no matter what H says about whether it should be his or not. He might yell about our M not being a partnership so he can avoid responsibility, but that doesn't make what he's saying true. She reminded me not to drink his koolaid, and I feel like sometimes the koolaid is on slow drip, and I'm not conscious of it. And then I remember it and get angry.
This is a boundary. Everything is joint property. You can give him everything, if you want, that's totally fine if it feels OK to you. But he cannot take everything just because he feels like it. Sometimes boundaries don't need to be spoken out loud to be there. Just holding that knowledge in your head and making decisions with it there is enough sometimes.
For instance, I stayed calm during the last interaction as he told me what I would pay and when (because I'd already been planning to get my own account and stop depositing my checks into our joint account), but post-interaction, my anger starts to rise up, and it feels like I'm not defining or enforcing a boundary. Why? I'm trying to figure this out. Maybe someone here can help me untangle this.
This is a place where you may need to find a boundary. I am reading between the lines that maybe your anger is at yourself for allowing him to walk all over you. You don't have to come up with a boundary on the spot, BTW. And you don't have to come up with a boundary all by yourself. In this instance, when he starts telling you what you will or won't pay for, you might say 'I need some time to digest all of this, can we continue the conversation in a couple of days?' And then go speak to a L and get the boundary you need.
I'm starting to feel like he has crossed and crossed and crossed a huge boundary, which is: I will not be disrespected! I will not accept this treatment from anyone! This treatment being: my H wants a D but does not file and instead continues living here with me, his wife, while dating.
You have not set up a boundary here. You are asking him to do something, change his behavior, act differently. A boundary is about what YOU do, not him. But, this is tricky territory to navigate. A boundary would be YOU instigating D because you will not accept this treatment. And then you say:
Why haven't I filed? I still want him to own his decision. Faced with challenges in a M, my choice is to at least attempt to work through those challenges. My vows were for better and worse. I don't have control over what he chooses, and obviously he doesn't choose any of that. Whatever his reason(s), this is where we are. When DnJ says standing is for you, this is what I think of: I choose to live by my values and beliefs--at this point, even if I do hold out hope H will come back to the H I knew someday, that's not the thing driving me. Best-case, a great house would come up for rent, magically at this same price (hundreds lower than current market), and I could live my values and beliefs elsewhere, with separate finances, and not care about what the heck H was doing with his life. But now he's going to have a roommate (me) who's paying him for half the expenses--why should he ever lift a finger to D? To move?
Which tells me that maybe you're not quite ready to put up a boundary yet. Which is OK. You have good reasons to do what you need to do. Maybe you will need to put a boundary here (file for D) or maybe not.
I fantasize about calmly saying to him next time he brings up what costs we should be splitting, "Funny, that we're still married, and you've been dating for months now. Do you ever think about the fact that we're still married?" Or, you know, when I'm on conferences at home for new job, loudly referring to my husband over and over just to remind him and hopefully push him to, uh, start the steps to change that status. I know how pointless all of that is. I know! But especially when he is acting outwardly happy and like everything is normal, I want to remind him (and me), Hello--this is not normal! You are living as if we are D and we aren't!
Saying anything like this to him will not produce the effect you desire, sadly. I have started writing down my fantasy quips and responses to the things H is saying or doing. And then try to let it go. When I go back and read them from a few weeks ago, I can see so clearly how it would only have made ME feel worse if I actually said them. That his response (or lack thereof) would have been so hurtful to ME.
I sometimes wonder: if I wasn't so resistant to (and probably accurate to say scared of) losing so much money in this process, would I decide to file, simply because it is a formality at this point, doesn't preclude future R, and because I'm ready to embrace this new life on my own? Would I have hired a L to hopefully help get him out of this house by now? (Maybe if they had assured me that would be easy, it would be a different story.) One thing this last year has taught me is that I really, really value feeling secure, and financially secure. All of that was taken away with BD. It's one reason I felt ready, recently, to leave this state--it's so expensive, especially when you don't have the benefit of two incomes. I do not want to lose the money I have saved up in the last year on my own, the money that will help me get my footing in this next, independent part of my life, to a D I didn't want in the first place. Isn't that the main thing stopping him--not wanting to face the financial reality? Does that make me as irrational as he is? Oh, boy. Didn't this post start out about boundaries? I do think it's all related.
I have this little 'prayer' that I will learn more about myself and grow from this awful experience. You are learning some valuable things about yourself that will serve you for the rest of your life.
Hugs, Cardinal! xx
Hello Cardinal
I do love the questions you are asking yourself. Shows a lot of inner reflection, and finding your beliefs and values.
When DnJ says standing is for you, this is what I think of: I choose to live by my values and beliefs--at this point, even if I do hold out hope H will come back to the H I knew someday, that's not the thing driving me.
Excellent.
Your life gets driven by you.
Remember, you have plenty of time. Exam your beliefs, values, and convictions. Strengthen or create those you want and admire, and alter or discard those you don’t.
Your beliefs will drive you. Live your beliefs.
For instance, I stayed calm during the last interaction as he told me what I would pay and when (because I'd already been planning to get my own account and stop depositing my checks into our joint account), but post-interaction, my anger starts to rise up, and it feels like I'm not defining or enforcing a boundary. Why? I'm trying to figure this out. Maybe someone here can help me untangle this.
Feelings. Let them flit. Do not make decisions based upon feelings. Look to your beliefs.
This journey is counterintuitive. It will feel wrong at times, until you get to the other side. Other side of what you ask? Grief.
You are working your way towards acceptance.
You are posting a lot of feelings. Perfectly natural and ok. You stay calm for an interaction with H, and then get angry after. You hold your tongue, you want to say stuff, and you wisely know better. But, you feel different. Hence all the questions.
One of the thing I see is indifference. You are indifferent while discussing and then that indifference falls away. Again, quite normal; indifference rises and falls just like everything else. The new interactions with H, your new job and the beckoning financial freedom it affords, stir up emotions and realizations of loss. Those realizations and loss is grief.
We all traverse our grief at many different stages and different events depending on what happens and what we can cope with at the time. All of us are in all of the stages for different parts of our situations. Somethings you are close to acceptance, even forgiveness. Others you are angry about, still walking towards acceptance and healing. And grief is not linear, nor well delimited between various stages.
Specifically for the above statement of “it feels like not defending or enforcing a boundary”. Let it go. It’s a feeling. Those will flit away once not reinforced. So very counterintuitive, and feels so wrong. Have faith. (((Cardinal)))
I'm starting to feel like he has crossed and crossed and crossed a huge boundary, which is: I will not be disrespected! I will not accept this treatment from anyone!
I’ve already spoken about feelings. Let’s discuss boundaries.
Boundaries are for you, not H (or whomever). Boundaries protect you, and might influence H’s behaviour towards you.
Boundaries are not for things you want, they are for things you need. Respectful behaviour towards you during interactions is such a thing. Your self worth is yet another.
There are a few kinds of boundary templates. Basically there is setting the boundary and enforcing it.
Setting: When you _____, I feel ______, I want __________ .
Enforcing: If you ______ I will __________ .
Example: When you cook your food and leave the dirty dishes in the sink, I feel like I'm living with a pig. I want you to clean up after yourself from now on and show some respect for my home. If you continue to behave like an animal I will move the dishes into your room so you will be more comfortable.
A boundary is USELESS unless you are prepared to ENFORCE it. You will be challenged and tested on every one of your boundaries. So make darned sure you can enforce them because if you don't you are wasting your breath and increasing the contempt he feels for you.
Boundaries are serious stuff. Ensure you know and believe, not just feel, in the boundary.
This treatment being: my H wants a D but does not file and instead continues living here with me, his wife, while dating. He does not/cannot see how that is disrespectful to me. What that says to me is, "You don't matter anymore. You don't matter, even if you were and technically still are my wife. You don't matter, you barely exist in my world, so why bother with the mess of filing for a D?" (I'm putting aside, for a moment, that fact that he also occasionally tells me I have no right to live here.) Or, now, "You matter only because you are now able to pay half of the joint expenses." Whether that stems from MLC or not, whether H can see it that way or not, isn't that what his actions are saying?
Cardinal, your feelings are getting the better of you. Let them wash over you. Focus on you.
You are filling in a lot of blanks here. Projecting your anger onto him and his behaviour. Mind reading by thinking, and unfortunately starting to believe, the “what that says to me”.
I decide whether or not I accept that behavior, right? Have I been implicitly accepting it without fully realizing it? I don't think I've succeeded in not internalizing, at least partly, his warped point of view.
H most definitely has a warp point of view. His ideas and reality is skewed and twisted. Be careful not to internalize it, although I do sense you have somewhat believed his narrative. I also see you rising up from it. All pretty standard stuff for the healthy journey of the LBS.
About his behaviour. You choice of wording - “Accept that behaviour” - is interesting.
You seem to be speaking from emotions here, and it is confrontational. Either/or thinking going on - “I decide whether or not I accept that behaviour, right?”.
Accepting. Yes, you do decide to accept or not. That is within your control. It’s control I want to discuss, for it goes with boundaries. You only control you. You cannot control H.
Counterintuitive alert! You have to accept H’s behaviour. (I know I just said you get to decide, bare with me). H has the right to behave however he wants too. And he suffers his consequences from his behaviour. Accept that.
You decide to accept the disrespect, or not. There is a difference.
You cannot stop his behaviour. You boundary the disrespect. For example, leave the room when he is disrespectful. Period. Every single time. No exceptions. He speaks to you properly or you will go into another room, and he can talk to the wall.
You do not control H. You cannot stop his behaviour. You control you. Your boundaries’ enforcement is what you can control. Which are your thoughts, actions, and reactions.
This treatment being: my H wants a D but does not file and instead continues living here with me, his wife, while dating.
I pulled out just the behaviour or lack of action, and left all the anger and emotions and mind reading out.
Get to your intellectual realm. That place of indifference. H is typical MLCer behaviour. This is H’s path, which has nothing to do with you; it is all about him. His dating is a band-aid, is just running and not facing his demons. As is all his outbursts and blaming you. You know all this! And, you feel different.
Do not make decisions based mostly or solely upon feelings, those will lead to regret, guaranteed.
H wants a divorce and doesn’t file. Why? The simple truth, because he doesn’t feel like it.
MLCer’s are driven by their feelings. The less confrontational, the less pressure, the better chance of them progressing along their path. It’s his journey, and you are not invited along.
I would have given anything to have my wife remain in the house and stall in proceeding with a divorce.
Why does your H feel like not proceeding? Who knows. Perhaps he is confused. Well no, he is confused. It’s when they aren’t that they jump and blow things up.
The question is why is he confused? That answer is something inside him. Something might just be there, a wee realization, a small whisper of doubt, that he is on the cusp of making a huge mistake. Stay the course Cardinal.
Focus on you. Treat him like a roommate. No pressure, and let him see that you are not the cause of his torment.
Is that what you want? Is that how you want to live? Probably not. However, stand for you! Find your beliefs.
Vows, marriage, yourself, loyalty, for better or worse (you are in the worse right now), faith, hope, etc.
Stand for you.
You can outlast his MLC. He may not awaken. And he may awaken. No matter what, I guarantee you will!
Stay the course, it is for you. The outcome is so worth the struggle. You are worth this struggle.
Let go H. Give him to God.
Let H own his D, if that is what he chooses to do. You are prepared, and will deal accordingly, and businesslike.
There is no rush, for you have the gift of time, even though it may not always feel like it.
D
PLC, Sage, I've been feeling and thinking about anger lately too. It's clear I was a bit angry when I wrote this last post, and I've been thinking about where that anger was/is coming from. On the one hand, I've come so far in acceptance of the situation that I no longer think much about what ifs. That question that comes up, that many asked me early on--you don't want to be with H as he is now, do you?--well, I have a clear answer to it now: No, I don't! Never has it been clearer that this is his journey. I am ready to leave him to it entirely. I don't want to live with him, either. I am ready for him to continue his journey elsewhere. All of that is contributing to a sense of impatience. I want my physical and mental space back. I've taken back so much through DBing over the last 14 months, but at the end of the day we still live together in the same small house.
Which tells me that maybe you're not quite ready to put up a boundary yet. Which is OK. You have good reasons to do what you need to do. Maybe you will need to put a boundary here (file for D) or maybe not.
You are right. I think part of my anger was in realizing I'm still not ready to enforce this boundary (by filing). And not for a noble reason like I 100% believe in my vows. That's part of it, but it's largely also wanting to avoid the cost, and knowing my filing would make him more unreasonable and probably wouldn't result in anything happening any faster. It's also me stubbornly thinking it's not *fair* for him to walk away from the M and leave me with the burden and work of filing. Sage, it's also a good reminder I don't have to have a boundary ready in the moment at all times. I can think about it and change my mind.
You cannot stop his behaviour. You boundary the disrespect. For example, leave the room when he is disrespectful. Period. Every single time. No exceptions. He speaks to you properly or you will go into another room, and he can talk to the wall.
You do not control H. You cannot stop his behaviour. You control you. Your boundaries’ enforcement is what you can control. Which are your thoughts, actions, and reactions.
One of the thing I see is indifference. You are indifferent while discussing and then that indifference falls away.
Also accurate. More and more I realize I haven't let go of H saying in that last interaction, sarcastically, "Welcome to the real world!" All of these irrational jabs he makes--when I don't take the bait and respond, I know that is right. But if I am angry about that still, I wonder if I should have put a boundary in place there, which would have been walking away from the conversation if he is going to leap to comments like that. I wouldn't let anyone else talk to me that way, but not to respond was another choice I made in the moment--to let it go so that I could get in and out of the financial discussion, which was fairly agreeable to me, as quickly as possible. This is a slippery slope for me. If my long-game is a low-conflict D (as much as is in my control) and keeping in mind what I want/need in the outcome, knowing that there is more chance of different aspects working in my favor so long as he files, because it's his idea, or if he decides to leave on his own... for instance, when he told me (again) in July he intended to file and move out, I told him I was intending on staying just because I thought we were both stating our plans. He seemingly took that as a challenge and reversed course. So I am trying now to let him think everything is his idea if it benefits me, and to say as little as possible because he will understand anything as antagonistic.
Now it appears he is no longer depositing his checks in our joint account. I think this is fine, because I'd already set up my own and was planning on no longer depositing my income in the joint once I start paying half of joint expenses in October. I do wonder if I will now have to remind H to deposit his half of the rent into the joint account on time, so that there is always money there when rent is automatically deducted. Seems like something else I will be responsible for keeping track of.
There is also still the issue of whatever remains in the joint savings I can't access. Of course H has never given me any of the financial docs I requested in July. One boundary is that I will refuse to discuss any agreement or negotiate with him until I have all the information I am entitled to. Now that it appears we're separating most other finances, should I bring up that the savings still needs to be divided? Again, even if he agreed to divide it, I would need to see statements first, and he is obviously not in a hurry to give them to me. So I've been thinking I might as well wait and not say anything about the savings now, because any pressure I put on H that has to do with this D process seems to make things worse. I keep telling myself that it's not like I'm going to let this go forever--either through mediation or with L, eventually, I will get the financial info, and I will go through statements to make sure all of the $ he took from savings to pay off what he said was debt from the M was in fact debt from the M, and not all the expenses he incurred after the date of separation.
Is that what you want? Is that how you want to live? Probably not. However, stand for you! Find your beliefs.
Vows, marriage, yourself, loyalty, for better or worse (you are in the worse right now), faith, hope, etc.
Stand for you.
You can outlast his MLC. He may not awaken. And he may awaken. No matter what, I guarantee you will!
Stay the course, it is for you. The outcome is so worth the struggle. You are worth this struggle.
Let go H. Give him to God.
Let H own his D, if that is what he chooses to do. You are prepared, and will deal accordingly, and businesslike.
Whatever is stopping H from filing for all these months has nothing to do with me or our M and everything to do with him, I believe. There are no indications he has any regrets or second thoughts. I'm not sure if I'm standing any longer or not some days. I think it's more that I am done holding out hope, because I am more secure in knowing that H, in his current state, is not for me. There's no there there. I've fully accepted that there is no working on M with someone who has no interest in that, and who would first have to do much work on his own. It's much harder for me to imagine any future with H in it (or to want to imagine that sometimes, because of all that's happened), but, at the same time, I'm not closed off to unknown future possibilities.
They don't file either because it's too much work when you're in Fantasyland, or because it benefits them financially nt to do so.
. I do wonder if I will now have to remind H to deposit his half of the rent into the joint account on time, so that there is always money there when rent is automatically deducted. Seems like something else I will be responsible for keeping track of.
Can you call the landlord and have them start deducting your half from your account and his half from his? Or are you worried he would stop paying?
Re: the savings - roughly how much money are we talking about here? It does concern me that hes not being forthcoming with the paperwork and won't let you see the account. Odds are fairly good that he's spent it, or done something else with it. If it's likely to be a substantial sum, you may need to file just to protect your financial interests. If we're talking about $5,000 it may not be worth it, but if we're talking about $200,000 I would never leave that in the hands of an MLCer. Sometimes filing for divorce isn't about not standing but is just about protecting your financial future - you can do both.
Cardinal,
Maybe this is the season of angry feelings with an MLCer. Or maybe it is a mini stage of indifference.
Whatever it is, I feel stronger with it. I will, stay nice when around H, because at this moment in time, I am standing.
I wonder if these feelings are my subconscious preparing me for being ready to drop the rope and move on. Whatever they are, for you and for me, we just need to take care of us.
((Cardinal))
PLC
Geez, H is already balking at splitting the pest control bill, though he backed down right away and said okay, sure, not a big deal. I'm wondering if I need to make a list for myself of what I am willing to pay myself or not pay--more boundaries. For example, I will continue to pay for all pet expenses, since he's pretty much given up all responsibility for them, and it's another way of showing I have taken over full ownership/care. Do I continue to buy shared items like laundry detergent, kitchen supplies, etc.? I think it's not the small amount of money that matters to me on those--but I do sense a bit of resentment building there, in that his "Welcome to the real world!" echoes again, as I think, "Sure, buddy--the real world is one in which all household supplies don't magically get restocked right before you run out of them!" I realize that I just need to let that resentment go, and the larger resentment of the fact that he can "demand" I start paying joint expenses, but not do the D work or attempt an agreement or share financial info. Anyway, I don't want to be petty and add up every little "joint expense," like foil, but I also want to be careful not to give too much. Gosh, I'm sensitive about being walked over or taken advantage of by H, am going to really learn to understand and flex that boundary muscle.
Can you call the landlord and have them start deducting your half from your account and his half from his? Or are you worried he would stop paying?
I'm not worried he'll stop paying altogether, just that he'll get distracted and forget to pay by a certain date. Through his MLC so far, though, he's kept up with the bills the same as he always has, so maybe it's more the fact that this is just adding a little bit more to my mental load--i.e. the need to check the account and make sure he's put money there at the first of the month. If he did stop paying, it wouldn't be a big deal now that I will have a better job. I would be able to cover his half and then maybe have even more claim to the house.
Re: the savings - roughly how much money are we talking about here?
Not a huge sum--it started out at 27k before he admitted to there only being ~14k left after he (he claims) used it to pay off his credit card over the past year. Ls I talked to said this kind of thing (one spouse using joint money to pay off debt without informing the other) is common, and if it was debt he incurred during the M, even though it wasn't a joint credit card, even if I didn't know about the debt, that was fair game. They agreed I would want to get statements to confirm that 1) the money went to his credit card and not somewhere else and 2) that it wasn't for a substantial debt he racked up after separation.
I wonder if these feelings are my subconscious preparing me for being ready to drop the rope and move on. Whatever they are, for you and for me, we just need to take care of us.
Anger has definitely come in different cycles throughout the past year for me, PLC, and you're right: focus on ourselves and take care of ourselves in whatever ways we can. Don't feed the anger or resentment, I think--accept what you're feeling and let it move through you. Each step toward dropping the rope and toward acceptance for me has come with waves of different emotions, and each time, DnJ points that out.
It's good to always have a reminder that it's normal.
Hello cardinal
More and more I realize I haven't let go of H saying in that last interaction, sarcastically, "Welcome to the real world!" All of these irrational jabs he makes--when I don't take the bait and respond, I know that is right. But if I am angry about that still, I wonder if I should have put a boundary in place there, which would have been walking away from the conversation if he is going to leap to comments like that.
Good on you for not taking the bait!
More on boundaries for you.
H needs to vent. He is angry and is venting. As well as projecting. His “Welcome to the real world” is really directed at himself. He just cannot face it. He cannot be wrong. His mind/emotions just cannot accept certain things right now. Seriously, he is a messed up dude.
Letting him vent - a bit - is actually a good thing. If he is going on and on, and calling your disparaging names or other derogatory titles and references, that is not ok. It’s a little bit of stick and stones thinking.
Your best and strongest boundary is your shield. Mental assertiveness. That brightly polished shield. You know H is messed up, in MLC, doing all manner of crazy stuff - He cannot hurt you!
He cannot hurt you!
It’s true. His words are just words. You control you. Be indifferent to him - shield. Let him yammer on. Who cares. Nothing he says can really hurt you. Your boundary is your mental understanding of what he is going through, and seeing the truth beyond his words. It’s about him.
He cannot hurt you! (I figure three times is pretty reinforcing
)
You have a sharp mind. Your sword is sharp. You shield is strong. Use it. Use them.
You wisely are keeping quiet. A lesson learned from being reasonable and stating your plan on remaining. Negotiating with a MLCer takes finesse. They need to feel like it is their plan or decision. Like they are in control.
The joint checking account. It’s joint. Go to the bank and get the statements. You might have to pay for them, so what. I would also get yourself access to your account. It is a joint account after all.
As kml said, perhaps having each half of the rent taken directly from each of your individual accounts would be a good course of action. It’s clean and easy to implement with H. No explanation or rules about depositing on time or anything; it between him and the landlord, and nothing to do with you.
I'm not sure if I'm standing any longer or not some days. I think it's more that I am done holding out hope, because I am more secure in knowing that H, in his current state, is not for me. There's no there there. I've fully accepted that there is no working on M with someone who has no interest in that, and who would first have to do much work on his own. It's much harder for me to imagine any future with H in it (or to want to imagine that sometimes, because of all that's happened), but, at the same time, I'm not closed off to unknown future possibilities.
Standing really starts when one is healed enough to stand down.
I do understand and empathize with everything you said here. From a friend:
Yes, you think (and feel) you are done with hope. What do you believe? And what do you want to believe?
Hope is just possibilities, those positive ones. There is always hope! For there are always possibilities.
Of course, you do not want current H. No more than I want my current XW. You have fully acccepted there is no working on M with someone like H. Have you accepted that M is dead? There is no M. Anything future will be a new one, a new R, a new M.
Yes, it is difficult to imagine a future with H in it. Same here with XW. And yet you are not closed off to the possibility. Same here as well. By the way, that it hope.
Standing really starts when you are healed enough to stand down. What do you want to believe? Strengthen, craft, alter, discard.
Stand for you.
(And as kml said, D is business and for protection if you need it. You can D and stand. You can do both. Best if you let H own it, if you can.)
Look hopefully towards your future. It is bright. Believe it.
D
Hi Cardinal,
I’m following along and wanted to say how much reading your posts, your questions and the advice offered here is helping me.
I think I was just about to enter a space where I was going to have to start coming up with some boundaries, but then as you know he’s made a large change in his behaviour and isn’t really here in anymore. All the same, prob best to prepare some scenarios so I’m not caught off guard when / if he comes back. I will def reread Dnjs posts...
As for buying joint items, I don’t have an answer but I can tell you want just happened in my sitch. We’ve been going along just fine splitting the bills and the grocery bill...until last week when I did a large shop and got spewed at for “why would you do that I’m not here to use any of that and I’m not sharing the bill anymore?” (Of course in hindsight he was preparing to “not be here”.)
So I replied “great, I can’t read minds so going forward we can certainly shop for ourselves.” Of course, up until he started leaving he was most certainly using and eating things I bought. I think going forward I will just buy for me. But you do bring up a very good point about certain staples being “magically restocked”.....
They change their behaviour so fast ...it’s unreal to think about what must be going through their heads.
Just wanted to point out how well you’re doing with the new job, separate bank account and mental fortitude.
And thx for the virtual hugs ...I needed them.
Just keep a record of every joint expense you pay for or pay half of. Keep a record of EVERYTHING. They use it against you later if a D happens, and you need to be able to show your contributions to marital debt/equity.
I didn't do this because I wasn't going to get a D no matter what. I left everything joint and kept putting my salary in our joint account to pay bills. And believe me, I am paying dearly for that..
Heading into the first week of teaching and the first week of my new job. I'm definitely a bit nervous! I'm about to be even busier, so I thought I would take a few minutes to post an update. (Oh--Quick question re: new job: I'd been planning to enroll in my own health insurance and get off of H's plan asap. Is there any downside to doing that I should consider? It's the same plan, same benefits, premium, etc., but I'd be in charge and separate from H, which seems a plus to me.)
I was a bit worried about how this first month of our splitting utilities and rent would go, and my mom wisely reminded me I should just email H the total that I would pay as a receipt, and then ask him where he'd like me to put it (in our joint account, where he is no longer depositing his work checks? Write him a check?). (I'm documenting everything, Gerda!) It took him a few days to respond, but he deposited his half in our joint account and said I could do the same. All good there, except now that I'm officially contributing half of the rent (whereas before all of our money just went to the same place), I've been noticing some resentment on my part when I am the only one to clean our bathroom as I've done for the past 15 months or take care of the yard, etc. Part of me is like, okay, we're officially roommates, so you need to do your part. Of course, I know this isn't how it works with someone in H's state. So I'll try to let go of that and just be glad, for instance, that he's been gone more lately and the house is peaceful. I'm trying to think of splitting expenses as a way for me to save money--trying to be positive.
Something else came up before that—I had a question about finances because I've been trying to figure out how best to complete my new W4s so I won't owe taxes next year. Of course that depends in part on knowing H's wages and how much he's withheld so far. I started to bring up taxes with H, and he cut me off by saying he's filing singly (married filing singly) next year, no more joint. From my limited research, I already knew in a community property state that wouldn't benefit us: our total income would still be considered joint, and it would just put us in a higher tax bracket, resulting in a higher bill. We already always owe because H never withholds much from his job. I spoke with a financial advisor whose response was, not surprisingly, "Well, I'm not sure what kind of reasoning your H is using, but that status is usually only used in the case of one party being worried about the other's tax fraud, because all it will do is result in a higher bill for him." I have to laugh now when people assume H should be rational and are confused when he's not.
The advisor went on to say some very DB things like, "Just because your H is saying he's going to file that way now doesn't mean it will actually happen. [Kindly, they do change their minds a lot!
]. Keep your side of the street clean and focus on the present," and "Your whole future is ahead of you--you're going to be great even if it doesn't feel like it now," and "Don't you ever consider giving up your rights to H's pension! You deserve it. Repeat after me: You deserve it."
It was great to note that six, eight months ago I was still in the place where I didn't like to hear that I would be okay without H, or that it was okay to move on, or anything like that. Listening to him made me realize that I really do believe all of that now, and I'm more excited than afraid about my future.
I re-read DnJ's post:
He cannot hurt you!
It’s true. His words are just words. You control you. Be indifferent to him - shield. Let him yammer on. Who cares. Nothing he says can really hurt you. Your boundary is your mental understanding of what he is going through, and seeing the truth beyond his words. It’s about him.
I am getting there, getting better at reinforcing that understanding.
But I'm also still going through cycles of anger; reading Sage's post resonated with me tonight. It used to be anger about H ending the M, or H taking off his ring, all of that BD stuff early on, or, later, H dating while still M. More and more I think it's about my coming to a place where I am ready to embrace the future and build my new life, but I can't fully do that while living with H. I can't get access to our savings statements, because the account has always been in his name--that continues to be an intermittent source of frustration too. I'm still feeling like I might have filed if I wasn't afraid of losing money to L. DnJ pointed out that the MLCer has to think an idea is their own, and I have seen that. So I keep thinking if I can just be patient, he'll file eventually, he'll move this process along, and it will turn out better for me the more he thinks each step (let's hope moving out) is his idea.
But I am still questioning how long I want to wait for H to file. It's such a technicality at this point. I feel like, yep, the M is over, I totally accept that. I do think I can be open to any future possibilities with H whether we are D or not. Right now I'm sort of planning to check in with myself in December. I think, really, is H going to go through another wedding anniversary without filing, another whole year when he is set on "separating" himself from me by filing taxes singly next year? Sigh. I'm not holding my breath that he's going to take any action (like MO or filing) on his side in the next few months, but I guess I can't predict the future, can I?
lose money to a lawyer or lose God knows how much by your H's control of your joint monies ... you get to decide. not a great variety of choices my friend. chose the one you can live with the easiest.
overall you sound great. I can tell you've been working hard. you are strong and much more confident. wishing you all the best this week with the new gig and always, Cardinal.
remember it's a process - a process of becoming the new you. xoxoxoxo
Good Morning cardinal
I agree with bttrfly, you sounds strong and confident.
Congratulations with the teaching job. Yes, it’s a bit nerve racking starting a new job - you’ll do great!
The insurance plan: Having your own plan is a good idea. The only downside, is that some plans have a waiting period before certain benefits kick in, or activate. Considering that, the sooner you start the better.
Glad to see this month’s splitting rent/expenses went ok. I do understand the feelings of resentment of looking after everything while the roommate does little of the hands on maintenance stuff. Ah, feelings. They’ll fade. You wisely know H’s current state; remember expectations will cause resentment.
Your advisor is right - your future, pension, etc. H will change his mind a bunch between now and tax filing time. Keep your side of the street clean.
More and more I think it's about my coming to a place where I am ready to embrace the future and build my new life, but I can't fully do that while living with H. I can't get access to our savings statements, because the account has always been in his name--that continues to be an intermittent source of frustration too.
Can’t vs won’t.
Your mind is listening.
You can embrace your future and build a new life, even with H underfoot. It’s difficult, sure, it’s not impossible. Please do not limit yourself with “can’t”; those kind of ideas have a way of getting into one’s beliefs.
The saving account, is a problem. Is the account solely in his name? If so, and it is suppose to joint... That will take some finesse or legal action. I’d start with the former and see where things go.
I'm still feeling like I might have filed if I wasn't afraid of losing money to L.
Two things: Rationalize your fear, it’s holding you back, paralyzing you. Money spent on a L is not lost, it is invested in your future. Second, listen to your feelings but
do not following them regarding filing or any major decisions. Look to logic and reason and beliefs. Feelings change and when they do, so does your “reasons” for whatever action you took based upon them.
Be patient, let H walk his path, you walk your’s.
But I am still questioning how long I want to wait for H to file.
Expectations.
Are you looking to H filing? Are you looking to filing?
Right now I'm sort of planning to check in with myself in December. I think, really, is H going to go through another wedding anniversary without filing, another whole year when he is set on "separating" himself from me by filing taxes singly next year? Sigh. I'm not holding my breath that he's going to take any action (like MO or filing) on his side in the next few months
Lots of timeframes and deadlines here.
I do think I can be open to any future possibilities with H whether we are D or not.
Hope is without a timeframe or deadline.
Ensure your financial security and keep moving forward. Do be open to the possibilities, to hope.
...but I guess I can't predict the future, can I?
The future is unknown. And yes, you are quite correct - predicting the future, one of the few things that are truly “can’t”.
For what it’s worth, be patient, it’s too early to tell which way H is going to go.
D
I'm still feeling like I might have filed if I wasn't afraid of losing money to L.
MLCers don't file if it benefits them financially not to. You need to be careful financially here.
1) Waiting to file might give H more time to squander any savings - if they're significant you might need to file to protect your share.
2) You've already been married more than ten years, right? So you would have access to Social Security benefits if half of his was greater than your on your own account. You could also take widow's benefits if he died.
3) Make sure he's not taking out debt that could be construed as marital debt.
4) A lawyer will protect your financial interests. You should at the very least have a consultation with one to see what, if anything, you should be doing right now to protect yourself financially. Sometimes that means filing, sometimes that means waiting.
(For those out there who are close to ten years married but not quite there yet, always a good idea to wait until you've been married ten years, just to preserve that option - if you're in the US.)
Cardinal, popping in to say Blossom laid her first egg yesterday, and Marigold her first this am. They hatched on 5/4/20. Buff Orps.
They are both so affectionate lately and want to take turns sitting on my lap. I made curtains for their nest box. I think I've become a crazy chicken lady.
How's it going with you?
HI Cardinal,
Haven't seen you for a bit. How are things going?
PLC
Thinking of you and hoping you are doing well xx M
Hello, all—I have missed you! Thanks for checking in here, everyone. I keep thinking I'll have time to catch up here during the weekend, but right now my only day off from three jobs is Sunday, and my schedule has been so crazy. This is the third week of my new WFH job, and so many things about it are telling me this is where I should be right now. The people on the small team I work with seem to really share my values and are doing inspiring work I really admire. I'm still learning about their work and their systems and don't feel I'm in a place to really contribute in a huge way yet, but I think I will be able to. I love WFH and would enjoy it even more if H wasn't disruptive. I can't believe after a year of job searching, I somehow landed this one with only one interview. I'm so grateful.
One of our weekly Zoom meetings featured a speaker from the Billions Institute. I wasn't familiar with her, but the presentation resonated with everything going on in my personal life in so many ways. I wish I could tell my co-workers how amazing it was to experience her message in light of what's going on in my marriage—kind of feel like it's too soon for that, though! I'll share one tiny snippet here. "If someone says to you, 'You don't care about me,' your job is not to convince them that you do or that they're wrong," the speaker said. "You already know how deeply you care; you don't need to convince anyone else." There was more to it than that, but, in hearing those words, I felt how much energy I spent last year (and sometimes in our M) trying to convince my H that I loved him. I felt how much of my energy is still drained away, sometimes, in feeling that I need somehow to convince my MIL (who I still haven't talked to) and anyone else that I did love him, that I didn't see this D coming, etc etc. Can I just be okay with knowing and believing my own feelings and my own mind?
I've been thinking about your responses to my post in the last few weeks (when I do have a minute to think about something other than work!). I've still been going back and forth between feeling frustrated and done and feeling like what I really need is more patience. I do still think that H has to think everything is his idea before any movement will happen. I think he has to want to move out, or he will just dig in his heels harder if I try in any way to move this process along.
And then, guess what? I heard someone came to the shop where I still work two days a week looking for me today. When my co-worker asked to take down a message for me, the person said, "She doesn't know me. I just have some papers for her."
So I think I'm getting served D papers at work tomorrow!
Partly I feel relieved at the thought: maybe I won't have to worry about whether I should file or not anymore. Partly I feel dread: When is this stranger going to walk through the door like any other customer, only to hand me D papers? Partly I feel annoyed: Why in the world is H having me served at work? To me, that's unnecessarily unkind and disruptive. He's here with me at home all week, and he knows I work here now most of the time. Also, guess he's not giving me the heads up that he said he would many months ago. H was home most of the day today with me. Partly I feel relieved that we won't hit our 11th anniversary in a couple of weeks with H still not having filed; and, yeah, partly a little sad about that.
I know this doesn't really change anything, because I'll still be waiting on H to be ready to actually discuss an agreement, to share financial docs with me, to come around to mediation or not. I suspect no forward movement will happen for some time. I don't plan to say anything about the papers to H; if he wants to bring it up, he can. Right now, the ball is in his court as far as an agreement goes.
I also find myself still finding that familiar loop of wanting some kind of answer: How the heck did H turn into this person? How is our 17-year R now me getting served at work with no warning? I don't dwell on those questions like I used to, but they resurface at times, and they resurfaced with this news. I've not thought much about our past R or memories of it lately. Mostly because I'm pretty content in my life, and busy too--I'm excited about whatever is ahead for me. Partly because it does me no good to think about it right now, because it leads me further down the questioning path, reminds me how different before was. No point spending too much time in that loop.
But look what I've missed—first eggs from Blossom and Marigold! There have probably been many more eggs by now. bttrfly, how is the flock? I know I've missed much more, and I want to catch up on how everyone is doing. I'll be back as I can. xoxo
And let me add this here from Sage's thread, because we touched on boundaries in the work presentation today too:
And you handled it in the right way - not as punishment, but simply acknowledging that it hurts you too much for him to be there at this time. You're not shutting the door, you're just not allowing him to abuse you. It's setting a healthy boundary. You can be kind and have healthy boundaries at the same time. Stick to the high road but at the same time don't let him cross those healthy boundaries.
My immediate reaction was just, yeah, H has his life; I have mine, and I don't wish to share a house with him anymore. I know I sound like a broken record.
But this feels desire feels healthy to me! Only I can't move out myself, so it's not a boundary I can put in place yet. I guess kml's words were just a reminder for me that not wanting to live with H doesn't have to mean I don't care for him or that I'm unkind.
Good Morning cardinal
Your new jobs sounds like a great fit for you. It’s very satisfying to be part of a team with likeminded values. I suspect soon, some coworkers will become closer friends and you will be able to share those meaningful things.
Tomorrows work visit: It may not be divorce paperwork, however it certainly does sound probably.
H not mentioning it, if indeed that is the case, yeah that sounds about right. My divorce was sprung upon me while I happened to be at my lawyer’s adjusting my will. The paperwork was delivered to him, to deliver to me. No word from XW, nothing.
It is strange to see all those years of R; 30 for me; and have D papers silently delivered to you. H is on his path. Give him to God.
Can I just be okay with knowing and believing my own feelings and my own mind?
Absolutely.
Reflecting upon one’s past, seeing how different it is, does bring forth questions. And yet, it bring answers as well. A comfort and contentment is found within the stark difference between then and now. For what was once so unbelievable becomes believed - MLC, WAS, H’s behaviour, and such.
You know your past. You know you care. You are kind and compassionate. You are content.
You did love H. You still do.
Believe in yourself. You’ve no need to convince or prove anyone else’s point of view wrong or right.
D
let us know what happened.
this week we got first eggs from both Violet & Belle - both are black copper marans so their eggs are an exquisite deep, dark chocolate color. Gypsy is the remaining freeloader - Easter egger, eager to see what her egg color will be. And oddly the laying of eggs now includes the entire flock going into the hen house and singing an egg song chorus for the hen laying the egg, like a bunch of midwives. Is this normal, or are my girls just weirdos??
this new job sounds like the perfect place for you, and overall I think you're doing great. Keep us informed xoxoxo
Um, guys? I got served at work today. By someone who was clearly one of his friends. And he's trying to get an annulment on a 10 year marriage because we never had, like, technical biblical sex. He's claiming this is fraud! When I asked a L about this possibility during a consult, they assured me there's a time limit on this kind of thing, and it's not ten years. I wasn't planning on support. We don't have assets to divide. He'd rather ensure we both have lawyers just so... what? I don't get the tiny portion of a pension I am entitled to?
Please talk me down. I am shaking with rage. If I had any doubts he has lost his mind...
I have to get a L to file a response now, right? This is no longer a response I can file myself?
Luckily he's gone for the weekend, but I do not know how I can be in the same house with him at all now. .
I am sorry it came to this cardinal. (((Hugs)))
He lives in the same house and has you served at work. That did sound likely, but still... wow. And I really don’t know what he is trying to get across with the “no technical biblical sex”. Yeah, his hamster has fell of its wheel.
I would follow one thing he said:
He'd rather ensure we both have lawyers
Yep. Get a lawyer. See what you are untitled too. Learn your rights. Discover if he owes you support or if you owe him. Perhaps the assets are greater than you know. H wouldn’t be the first person to try to pull a fast one.
Come in from the ledge. It’s narrow and it’s cold outside - well it is here.
This event certainly does stir one’s emotions. It’s ok to feel all over the place for a while. When I got served, XW had been gone for 11 months and it still shocked me.
The rage will pass. Do not make any decisions for a few days; to ensure you are calmed down.
Speak with a lawyer. Consider all the angles of this business deal gone bad, and go from there. Keep this business. It really is; even thought it doesn’t feel that way right now.
Stay strong.
Be the grey rock. Go dim/NC.
D
I am so sorry Cardinal. This brings tears to my eyes, because this is what we all are trying to avoid in being here.
I know this was not entirely unexpected, but wow.
Listen to the veterans here. They will help you.
((CARDINAL))
Thank you, DnJ and PLC. He is off his hamster wheel for sure. I’ve carried shame around the SSM for a long time—I’ve experienced pain issues and blamed myself, but over the last year in therapy I’ve come to see how H also did not make intimacy easy. I’ve come to see how I blamed myself for his anger too, the anger that he often said did not exist. Well, H is angry now and has been for the last year. When he decided he was unhappy and had been for our entire M, he also decided to blame all of it on me and take no responsibility for his own life. A common story here.
There are just so many new lows from him today, I can’t process it. I’ve never felt this level of anger. I’m thinking about how the papers weren’t even in an envelope, just crumpled from his (girl) friend carrying them around for who knows how long. Of course all his friends know how I’ve tortured him and never loved him and why I deserve nothing—he’s got that story down.
I was fine with no courtesy heads up. I was fine with being served at work unnecessarily. But now that he thinks he can magically erase our M with an annulment the way he has erased and rewritten it in his memory, I’m not fine. He’s living in such a fantasy. My therapist laughed and said if this was the case, people would get annulments all the time—after affairs, after waking up one day after 20 years of M and not loving their partner anymore, etc. she couldn’t believe a L had signed off on it.
The worst part is I have needed all of these people to tell me today that he is crazy and that, yes, our M happened and he was a co-creator of it; they saw how he loved me—I didn’t force him to stay in a M and “suffer.” I’ve needed people to tell me that I don’t deserve this. His narrative still has a little power over me, and I don’t like it.
I want to call his mom and say WTF is your son doing? I want to throw his stuff out. Change the locks. All things I won’t do. And I really want to scream something at him to make him see how unnecessarily cruel he’s being. The worst part is that he doesn’t see it and can’t.
Cardinal, big hug to you. I remember that feeling. My H did that when I was home with our kids and refused to move out for over a year until I paid him to move out. He is still trying to destroy me.
I don' think it's possible not to feel what you are feeling.
But I will say that it's all lies (from the devil, I mean, that sort of lies).
Of course he will try to legitimize the ways he has hurt you.
The only thing you have to know is that you believed in your marriage and your man. You loved honestly and truly. You knew what you were getting into when you married him -- e.g., you knew what marriage was. Your ability to love him is not indicative of his current ability to love you. Try not to get confused. Be sad that he lost his mind rather than angry that he is saying those things about your marriage or you.
If his GF served you, she is possessed by the dark side even more than the average OW. She is a little ant and not worth your notice.
It's probably not possible to think clearly now. It hurts too much. But know that you will get there.
Annulment in a Catholic sense? That's not how it works. It's about whether or not you understood the sacrament you were undertaking. Or if he was insane at the time. It's a long process.
Let him spin his wheels on all of this. Your one and only goal -- protect your finances and get as much of what you deserve as you are willing to battle for. If you don't want any of it, sign the papers and be done. If you want something, just focus on that and don't worry about the truth of who did what. You know what the truth is. He will either wake up and realize that or he never will. Don't justify yourself or your past.
You should get a lawyer but you don't need one to respond to this first thing. Don't rush to find someone, find the really right one for you. You are contesting the divorce, right? E.g., you are not okay with what he plans to do for dividing what you have? So it's a contested divorce. There is a site for family law self help, it's a center and an org. Do a web search and it should pop right up. It will explain to you what to do to buy the time you need to answer -- essentially that you are contesting the divorce and that you need time to find a lawyer and request the maximum amount of time to do.
((((Cardinal)))))
Gerda, I have two L I have consulted with in the past and like. I think I know who I will go with. I don’t want a contested D if possible and I don’t know what he would even propose in a D agreement, since all these papers show is a box checked for annulment. No financial info or proposed settlement attached (I suppose because they request an annulment and not a dissolution). Plus I don’t think he wants to do the work of listing out possessions, etc.
If I file a response to the annulment papers that request a D instead of an annulment, is that considered contested? I’m just wondering at what point a D crosses into contested territory if we have no proposed agreements yet on either side. Is it once we have each proposed agreements and both L say we can’t come to an agreement and we want to go to court, then is it contested?
Thank you for sending me strength, Gerda!
Believe in yourself. You’ve no need to convince or prove anyone else’s point of view wrong or right.
Darling Cardi, I am so sorry for what you have been through today. My heart aches for you.
However, you have now been firmly thrust into a business transaction, one that you didn't want, but right now you need to keep your head on and use your smart woman skills. Can I help you translate some of the things that have happened? Take it or leave my translations, of course.
I’m thinking about how the papers weren’t even in an envelope, just crumpled from his (girl) friend carrying them around for who knows how long.
Very low. And also very disorganized and unprofessional. This should give you an indication into the type of L he has retained.
Of course all his friends know how I’ve tortured him and never loved him and why I deserve nothing—he’s got that story down.
This will not matter to you in two years' time. This is not part of the business transaction. Let this one go. If they don't recognize your side, they are not worthy of your time. (And a 2x4: you don't actually know this to be true, you are projecting it. Let others' opinions go right now so you can save your strength for you.)
I was fine with no courtesy heads up. I was fine with being served at work unnecessarily.
Because you are strong. And you know it.
But now that he thinks he can magically erase our M with an annulment the way he has erased and rewritten it in his memory, I’m not fine.
What if there was another truth here in place of the one you suggest above? What if H is simply a selfish, lying sonofagun who doesn't want to pay you what you deserve and doesn't want to acknowledge that he has spent all that savings in the account he won't show you? What if this is simply a business transaction for H, a shady one for sure, but isn't about erasing your M, but more about not wanting to give you what you deserve post-M?
He is entitled and thinking only of himself.
Please allow this fact to give yourself permission to also only think of yourself. Because no one but you (and us!) are going to look out for you right now.
He’s living in such a fantasy. My therapist laughed and said if this was the case, people would get annulments all the time—after affairs, after waking up one day after 20 years of M and not loving their partner anymore, etc. she couldn’t believe a L had signed off on it.
Your therapist is totally spot on here. It took my very Catholic aunt YEARS to get a legal annulment for her M, and both parties were cooperative and desiring an annulment for religious reasons, therefore working together tirelessly to get the state to agree. And she lived in a conservative state. I believe you live in a liberal one where there is a lot of money and high-stakes divorces. This is a very, very, very hard path to take and another indication of what kind of L your H has retained.
Of course, don't point this fact out to him, it will be beneficial to you if he continues to work with such sloppy representation.
The worst part is I have needed all of these people to tell me today that he is crazy and that, yes, our M happened and he was a co-creator of it; they saw how he loved me—I didn’t force him to stay in a M and “suffer.” I’ve needed people to tell me that I don’t deserve this. His narrative still has a little power over me, and I don’t like it.
Oh, Cardinal. So much empathy to you on this one. H has done such a number on your self-confidence, intuition and memories that you no longer feel capable of believing what you know within yourself to be true. You have been gaslit for so long that you don't even trust yourself to believe the truth.
A long-term goal is to trust yourself, your memories and know in your beliefs. If, in the short term, you have to ask others for validation, that's OK. You are reclaiming your sanity and sometimes we just need lighthouses to help guide us into the harbor.
You will get there on this one.
I want to call his mom and say WTF is your son doing? I want to throw his stuff out. Change the locks. All things I won’t do. And I really want to scream something at him to make him see how unnecessarily cruel he’s being.
Write the MIL and never send the email. Put a little voodoo hex on his stuff. Change the locks to your heart, not the house. Feel everything, then let it go.
I know it feels cruel to you, but to him it's just a business transaction, so is it really cruel? Or just shady and morally wrong and indicative of a corrupt human unworthy of even your vitriol? Can you change the channel on this line of thinking and find some internal language that turns you from a victim into the empowered queen that you are?
The worst part is that he doesn’t see it and can’t.
And may never. Use this as fuel to boost you into 'business transaction' mode.
((((((Cardinal)))))))
Continuing in a new thread (why do crazy things always seem to happen at the end of threads?):
Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity #2