Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: DnJ A Great Life #7 - 06/28/20 08:37 PM
Previous Threads:

1 - What happened to our great life?

2 - What am I supposed to do now?

3 - This is going to take some time.

4 - This is going to take some time #2.

5 - This is going to take some time #3.

6 - This is going to take some time #4.

7 - This is going to take some time #5.

8 - This is going to take some time #6.

9 - This is going to take some time #7.

10 - This is going to take some time #8.

11 - There is something beyond limbo #1.

12 - There is something beyond limbo #2.

13 - A Great Life #1.

14 - A Great Life #2.

15 - A Great Life #3.

16 - A Great Life #4.

17 - A Great Life #5.

18 - A Great Life #6.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 06/28/20 10:03 PM
What a hot weekend!

While mowing my grass, and considering the metaphorical implications of turning long shaggy grass into neatly trimmed lawn played within my head, I furthered more on indifference.

We find detachment. The detaching, unlinking, of our emotions from our spouseís behaviour, words, and emotional state.

Indifference follows. This is us becoming indifferent to our own emotions - not indifferent to our spouse. This is the core of compassionate indifference.

We influence our emotions. We are responsible for our emotions. No one else is.

Putting our love away (for safe keeping) for a while is a good and healing thing. It is a normal and natural part of this. It allows one to delve within themselves free of the noise and emotions towards their spouse. One finds their beliefs, their values, their convictions. Upon what you discover you strengthen, alter, or discard what you find. This is an amazing opportunity for development and betterment of self.

This is not an indifference towards life or anyone else, just your spouse; itís part of the process of grief. This is the limbo stage of oneís path - the void. I found there is something beyond limbo (if you recall my thread titles).

I promote finding and keeping compassion for your spouse or ex-spouse during this time. This is the time of beliefs and their creation and strengthening; make compassion more than just a thought, make compassion a belief. Hence compassionate indifference.

There is a tendency, unwitting as it may be, to harden oneís heart, put up walls, and protect oneself from further hurt. See this and take control. Mental assertiveness is very effective, especially during times when emotions are muted. Compassionate indifference keeps oneís heart soft and squishy.

A word of caution, indifference regards your feeling towards your spouse. However, it can bleed out to other aspects of your life. Consider and investigate other voids that crop up; there can be some irrational coupling of indifference to other things as well, which you may want to look into. For the most part this indifference is ok, for this state is temporary; one doesnít want to be unfeeling towards their own life.

As you heal and work towards acceptance, your indifference will lessen and unwind. Feelings and emotions do return from that place of safekeeping. Yet, we remain detached and in control, and well healed. A good and healthy outlook for oneís life.

There are different paths depending upon how we traversed our time in limbo. Hopefully compassion and empathy have flourished. Our walls will lower and a willingness to risk hurt and to love again will return. (Of course if one has taken a less kind path they will be less empathic and more risk adverse)

That love for our spouse becomes more of a belief. Something more than a feeling. Something more unconditional. It doesnít drag us around, nor does it control us. It has an almost indifferent aspect to it. We have learnt how to turn indifference on and off at will. We live in full view, within the light, within love, and seldom with full indifference.

From here we progress towards acceptance and forgiveness. Our empathy allows us to see and believe, our spouseís point of view and their beliefs. Our indifference to that, brings us back to our own; for that is a rabbit hole you do not want to go down. The ability to empathize with oneís spouse can only be compassionate and must lead to understanding. Forgiveness, or the strengthening of it, happens when you realize and truly see just how lost they are.

Indifference is a necessary step along our paths, and a valuable skill we learn. Use it with compassion. It affects you more than you may realize.

D
Posted By: Grace21 Re: A Great Life #7 - 06/30/20 02:05 AM
DnJ -

I like the image of you mowing your acreage and comtemplating indifference. I would imagine a great many things have been comtemplated this way over the years.

Originally Posted by DnJ
This is us becoming indifferent to our own emotions - not indifferent to our spouse. This is the core of compassionate indifference.


This is excellent. It's easy to merge the two, and I find myself even now wondering about this. My interactions with H bring no warm fuzzy feelings......yet. But, here I am now, caring for him, making plans to see him this weekend, and looking forward to it. My indifference to my emotions have protected me, and allowed me to find me. Because I was never indifferent to H, I am now free to explore us as the new me. New emotions will, or won't, be developed over time. For now, I'm o.k. with that.

Grace
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 06/30/20 12:27 PM
i object to the word indifference, but you already know that.
Posted By: Grace21 Re: A Great Life #7 - 06/30/20 01:22 PM
I get what you are saying, bttrfly. It's really just a change of mind-set and detaching. Really getting that you have no control over someone else, so focus on reality, and the "indifferent" (i.e. changed) emotions can follow.
Posted By: cardinal Re: A Great Life #7 - 06/30/20 06:50 PM
I imagine your thinking occurring while mowing as mine does while weeding. Imagine if I had acres to weed! smile

I am going to post the same quote Grace did, because I am turning it over in my mind and trying to understand it better.
Originally Posted by DnJ
This is us becoming indifferent to our own emotions - not indifferent to our spouse. This is the core of compassionate indifference.

At first I thought, well, I do, more of the time though not all, feel indifferent to my spouse now. He comes, he goes, but it is in the background while I am focusing on whatever is going on in my life at the moment. I still feel that I'm living with a strange college-aged guy for a roommate. But I guess I am not indifferent to his wellbeing--is that the distinction? The H that is in front of me now is so different than the one I knew in ways that are not attractive to me, so I don't have those feelings of love that I used to have when he would walk into the room. Yet I do still believe I love him, but that love is more removed and (again, not 100% of the time, but more than it used to be) less emotional.

Originally Posted by DnJ
I promote finding and keeping compassion for your spouse or ex-spouse during this time. This is the time of beliefs and their creation and strengthening; make compassion more than just a thought, make compassion a belief. Hence compassionate indifference.

I think Iím still trying to get my bearings in this spaceóI go back and forth between thinking I am being too nice, or worrying that my kindness when he does approach me or initiate a small convo is somehow wrong. Is somehow not projecting the detachment that I do feel. I suppose I should trust that I can be detached and also kind, and I should stop worrying about what that does or does not look like from the outside. Which leads me to this question: What does compassion for oneís (MLC) spouse look like, on a day-to-day, concrete basis? I am curious what it looks like when you are living with this spouse and just in general. Here or on my thread, I would love to hear examples from others.
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/01/20 04:58 PM
Great words to ponder.

From my view, I am currently working on the characteristic that I unwittingly developed during childhood - withdrawal and "zoning out". That's about the best I can describe it. It was a self-preservation mechanism to keep myself safe from two parents who were incapable of raising children - NPD and BPD parents who Ded and then fought like cats and dogs for decades afterwards.

Being raised in that environment led to the formation of many instinctual habits, some of which I am only becoming aware of now. This indifference you speak of is something I identify with very much- though sometimes I have a hard time determining if I am detaching with love, or reverting to that old safe behavior from my childhood.

I think either way, it is a good thing to take a step back and look at ourselves and who we are. Regain our footing. Alter our perspective, though not so much as to rewrite history. Rather to see our lives and ourselves from another vantage point.

Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/01/20 05:04 PM
Good Morning

Originally Posted by Grace21
I like the image of you mowing your acreage and comtemplating indifference. I would imagine a great many things have been comtemplated this way over the years.

Grace - When I was a boy. Lol. Arnít men still boys on the inside? Just bigger toys.

When I was young, just a boy, I loved walking through the store with Dad and imagining my life where I could ride those ride-on lawn mowers. I loved the idea of driving, as a boy. I still do, I love to drive.

I wanted/wished for a yard where I needed a ride-on mower. Needed, not just used because it was cool, needed because my yard was big. Ha ha. Be careful what you wish for, DnJ.

I do love mowing grass. And I get 4-6 (sometimes more) hours of solitude and peace. Just me, and my thoughts. And any influences that come my way - and there are plenty. Iíve thought, and crafted, more posts and poems and feedback and advice than I can find the time to upload. Lots of it is still in my head and heart. One particular piece has been there for almost a year now. I really want to get it down on paper. I need to retire. Lol

My two hours of daily commuting yield similar contemplative time. I suppose Iím not alone in that.

Iím glad my views are resonating with you. And I really like your outlook on exploring a new relationship and your feelings around that. They will, or wonít, develop. Good for you.

Your situation has certainly taken an interesting turn.


bttrfly - I do see and understand your point and objection.

I like breaking out indifference from detachment. I found it easier taking smaller steps when first crawling along as a newbie. First detachment, then indifference.

I also found similar ease for walking it back. Rolling indifference back, accepting my feelings and subsequent beliefs for XW the person and not her behaviour. To me it is rather clear. Still detached with focused indifferent when and where I need to be (which is rather seldom).

Soft, squishy, and strong heart! Feels awesome!


Originally Posted by cardinal
I imagine your thinking occurring while mowing as mine does while weeding. Imagine if I had acres to weed! smile

cardinal, you are welcome to come of here and weed to your heartís content! Iíve got acres and acres that could use some TLC. smile it is pretty amazing what clarity comes while letting ourselves mentally freewheel a bit. Thatís part of another contemplation Iíve had - influencing and allowing our subconscious mind to find clarity.

Originally Posted by cardinal
But I guess I am not indifferent to his wellbeing--is that the distinction?

You bet.

We separate the person from the behaviour. See them in a non judging light. It takes removing our emotions from the equation to be objective and gain understanding, which influences our emotions and beliefs, which furthers our compassion.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Yet I do still believe I love him, but that love is more removed and (again, not 100% of the time, but more than it used to be) less emotional.

Love it!

Thatís it.

Love is a feeling, a thought, an action, a belief. It is a choice. It becomes unconditional.

Separate the person from the behaviour. Love the person.

We donít need to hate, or even dislike the behaviour. Indifferent is a good response to that. We control our actions and behaviours. Without malice or vengeance treat your spouse as they deserve, or through their actions have demanded. As in, ďmy friends donít treat me that wayĒ - be cordial and kind and focus on your own life. You are no oneís doormat!

Unrestrained compassion would lead to being used. We need to see the bigger picture. We are still first in our own lives after all.

It does take time to find oneís bearings in this new landscape. I understand the worry and back and forth thinking about how your actions may or may not be interpreted by H. Find yourself. Trust yourself.

See and be comfortable with your beliefs. If you arenít happy and comfortable - fix them. Then follow them.

Beliefs are excellent headings; slow to change. Follow those and let the chips fall where they do. His eventual landing is still really up to him; you will not affect his trajectory too much. You will affect your own.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Which leads me to this question: What does compassion for oneís (MLC) spouse look like, on a day-to-day, concrete basis? I am curious what it looks like when you are living with this spouse and just in general. Here or on my thread, I would love to hear examples from others.

Iíll pop over to your thread and post some thoughts there.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/05/20 07:06 PM
Hello Iron

When all our emotions regarding M, spouse, etc. are mostly still, it is a great time for self realization and growth towards who you want to be.

Be the best you will be.

The usual statement is be the best you ďcan beĒ, however I prefer ďwill beĒ. Every single day is another opportunity to be better, to make a difference, to live in the light. When I draw my last breath is when Iíve become the best I can be; until then I strive to get there, strive to be the best I will be.

Ah wording, and our listening minds. smile

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/05/20 10:00 PM
What a week.

So many storms. So many outages and equipment problems. So many hours worked, Iíve lost count. For example, yesterday, Saturday, started at 5:30am and I got home at 10:00pm.

Oh and it was so very hot! OMG. Just cooking out there.

I spent a good portion of my week at the hospital substation. Storm damage left only one of their transformers online. Putting the entire hospital on the remaining transformer was overloading it, so repairs needed to be made quickly.

A funny story, at the end of the day, with us guys still working, the nurses and other staff all walked by the substation towards their vehicles in the adjacent parking lot. At this particular time I was the only one there as the other guys were doing some switching and then getting a drink. Around 100 nurses walked by, and a few of them stop and tell me what a great job Iím doing restoring their power. Even called me a hero.

Substation work usually goes unnoticed and gets little accolades. So I was caught somewhat off guard. The hospital electricians happened to be outside in the shade and saw this exchange. I, as graciously as I could being sweaty and tired, accepted the goodwill and thanked them. I also did a strongman pose, pressing my arms together in front of me and puffing out my chest. LOL. It went over very well. I laughed, they laughed, the electricians laughed, it was a good moment. After the nurses left, I told the electricians, itís tough being a hero. To more merriment.

That bonded me and the hospital electricians. And some of the staff passing by on the street. Something I realized during the next days as the hospital suffered two more equipment problems and outages. The electricians helped with everything I needed from them. Even one missing his daughterís baseball game to remain after hours to transfer load within the hospital. Of course that is his job, but it became ďfunĒ.

People will forget what you do for them, but they will never forget how you made them feel. Just something Iíve picked up over the years; the values relationships are built upon.

While Iím off on a soliloquy... smile

I was called out to station problems in city one hour away. The storm loomed to the north of me. Dark clouds stretched across the horizon and lightning lined the sky. Literally the day turned dark within the storm clouds. The rain pelted down and blue white flashes strobed the dim gray world. I head off to the storm to restore power and light. As I drove from my house and the clear sky above, it was all too familiar.

Go into the darkness. (Work and life - a metaphorical intermingling.)

People usually fear the dark and donít venture there. When the opposite should be the case. Go into the dark, with your light, and shine from within. Make a positive difference. Push back the dark.

Go into the darkness and bring the light with you.

- - - -

Some other musings during my many hours of commuting.

A Broken Heart
by DnJ

A heart that is broken
Is a heart thatís been loved.
Touched by the Grace
That comes from above.

For love is divine
Making one light as the air.
There was such a joy
Having someone to care.

The anguish one feels
Is proof of that love.
Emotions that once soared
Upon wings of a dove.

Heartache and pain
One needs to now bear.
The depths of which
Feels so very unfair.

The feelings of grief
Do eventually give way.
Our hearts do heal
And emotions again play.

Happy and joyful
They very much return.
Compassion and forgiveness
Ah the lessons we learn.

We heal and walk
Upon this path we were shoved.
A heart that is broken
Is a heart thatís been loved.
Posted By: Gordie Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/21/20 02:20 PM
This is amazing:

"We heal and walk
Upon this path we were shoved.
A heart that is broken
Is a heart thatís been loved."

Thank you. I needed to hear this. And your comment on Gerda's thread...I don't like to think about my darkest times, but your post was a reminder of how far you have come...of how fare I have come...of how far we all have come.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/21/20 03:32 PM
beautiful. yes.
Posted By: sjohns6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/22/20 11:29 PM
Hey there, DnJ. Its always a pleasure to catch up on your threads. You are such a light in dark times. I also really enjoyed reading your post on Gerda's thread. Not because I enjoy reading about your dark times, but because you always have it so together and have so much insight to offer everyone else and its refreshing to remember that you also endured very difficult times...and to see how far you have come from that dark place. It is inspiring. And I really liked your poem. Thank you sir. I am glad you are here. Well, not the reason you are here, but that you are here instead of elsewhere.
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/25/20 03:58 AM
This poem might have been written by another form of you.


Praise the Rain
By Joy Harjo

Praise the rain; the seagull dive
The curl of plant, the raven talkó
Praise the hurt, the house slack
The stand of trees, the dignityó
Praise the dark, the moon cradle
The sky fall, the bear sleepó
Praise the mist, the warrior name
The earth eclipse, the fired leapó
Praise the backwards, upward sky
The baby cry, the spirit foodó
Praise canoe, the fish rush
The hole for frog, the upside-downó
Praise the day, the cloud cup
The mind flat, forget it alló

Praise crazy. Praise sad.
Praise the path on which we're led.
Praise the roads on earth and water.
Praise the eater and the eaten.
Praise beginnings; praise the end.
Praise the song and praise the singer.

Praise the rain; it brings more rain.
Praise the rain; it brings more rain.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/25/20 03:41 PM
Good Morning

Busy weeks of outage and emergencies - standby, storms, and serenity.

There has been a lot of storms around here. Lightning and wind damage has required much restorative efforts. The days have passed by with a blur. Many nights home late, feed the dogs, feed myself, and go to straight to bed. Get up at 5:30 and repeat.

Thankfully today it is sunny and bright and no rain. I need to mow my grass itís been three weeks (I think) since last mow and a pile of rain. The lawn is thick, tall, and lush.

The amount of rain has been record setting. In the last three days Iíve dumped out 6 inches of rain out of my head rain gauge from three different storms; impressive for living near a dessert. smile

My road as two washouts. Cuts wind their way down my gravel road, from the top of the circle turnaround to the long lane. The ditch is as full of water, or maybe a bit more, than it was in spring. I am back to not being able to mow the entire lawn again; there is a good sized lake in the middle of it.

Gordie, I am happy those words reached you. One is well healed when one appreciates their own heartache. One sees it from love lost not pain gained.

Ah, those dark times. They are such a long ways a way. Now, just a fleeting moment within memory. Yes, we have all come so very far.

bttrfly, thank you.

sjohns, itís wonderful to see you again. Thank you for your kind words, and your forgiving critic of my poetic expressions.

I am glad I am here as well. The reason I found myself here, is strangely both wanted and unwanted. I mean I donít want to be divorce, my ex-wife gone off with some guy, me living alone, and so on. And I do. For it lead me here.

I know who I am. My kids are strong stable healthy adults. I have a fantastic life. People in my life are loyal and want to be here; and I want them to be here. Authentic and sincere are two of the many qualities I live by and are likewise requisites for those close to me. I have trusting relationships. I am sought out for my views and guidance. And so much more.

As much as I wish this never happened, I wouldnít want to to not have. Iíve said many times, this unwanted journey is an incredible opportunity. We here are the select few that actually recognize the fantastic opportunity before us. Itís up to each of us if we walk it or not.

I know you understand. And you, I consider close to, my friend.

Gerda, a wonderful poem. And fitting for all the recent storms around here. Praise the rain indeed.

My own dabble into the metered structure and license to wax poetic was inspired whilst roaring around cutting grass under the tall expansive canopy of the cottonwoods. Those 150+ year old giants have inspired much.

A Broken Heart just poured in as I was within their shadow and embrace. I havenít been to that part of the yard in weeks, I wonder what it awaiting me. I have many hours of mowing ahead, never know what I may discover.

The Whisper of the Tress seems constant and to not cease. And sounds like a wonderful title of another journey into the poetic realm.


D18ís graduation is a month passed. She has been moved out coming up on two months now. Her and her brother S19 have their basement suite organized and have settled in. S21 and GF have their townhouse setup and are doing well too. S23 and GF are also doing very well having recently moved in to a new place together.

All six, my four and my other two smile , kids are all enrolled in their university courses for the upcoming year. D18 education, S19 double honours physics and math, S21 computer science, S21 GF music degree already and education, S23 architecture, S23 GF plant biologists. There is a lot of knowledge sitting around the supper table or fire pit. Conversations can get pretty interesting really fast.

My relationship with each of them is my responsibility. The dark times are but a fleeting blur for me and for them as well it seems. I laid bare my views, beliefs, and values. I had difficult conversations with my kids over an array of topics. The dividends of which are easily seen. These are good people. Strong values and morals.

Our relationships are wonderful. A few examples of the past month.

S23 came out for a visit and we had a really good time. He also shared his frightening news - suspected heart problems.

To help diagnose what was going on with him, he needed a blood test. So weeks ago on Saturday morning he made an appointment to get his blood samples done. With Covid and all the protocols that was a procedure in itself. Anyhow, he got his appointment and went to clinic. During the obtaining of the blood, he passed out. Right out! Splat on the floor. P!ssed himself and everything. He was right out. He awoke to two nurse loudly asking him ďAre you ok? Are you ok?Ē.

They got his groggily self onto a bed in a storage room so he could recover. Poor guy. Laying there, urine soak pants, feeling terrible, trying to regain his consciousness, and pushed into a closet.

In about a half an hour he was released. They gave him a paper gown to wear out of the clinic to hid his condition. And strict orders that he cannot give blood alone - ever! He must have an attendant, someone to drive him home. I told him, I can do that, just give me some notice and Iíll be there. Of course GF would be first and Iíll be the backup.

This is the second time he has passed out like this. Even thinking about giving blood makes him feel queasy. Ah, he is definitely my son. I hate giving blood. Lol

Anyhow, remember this is Saturday and this was on the way out of the city to visit me. His GF was at her parents and after seeing me for a day he was picking up his Camaro and going to visit her and her parents. As such he had clothing packed in his truck. So a very quick strip and change in the parking lot and he was off to see me. LOL When he arrived he was still not feeling so great.

He told me about his chest pains, and the testing they are doing. I offered my wisdom and encouragement. Acknowledged the fear and the responsibility of looking after himself and doing something about it instead of ignore and hope it goes away.

In the realm of adulting, he also invested his inheritance in a tax free savings account. He listened to my advice, investigated different options, and invested his money his way, which happened to be in line with my advice. That is a crucial piece - he invested it his way. He didnít follow my advice, he listened to it, and made up his own mind.

S23 also let me know that he named me the beneficiary of the account. I thanked him for letting me know and told him I agreed with his choice, and that someday he will change it to GF, however I agreed that is not now.

A month later and tests and medications completed, S23 is fine. The blood tests were all negative. The chest pain has subsided and the doctor believes it was pulled chest muscles. Whew.

Iíve popped in to S21 and GFís place after work for supper a few times. We have good discussions about his work and his computer programming. The lad has found his passion. He is incredibly versed.

A little side hobby he is into is hosting a online game portal. To briefly put things, in this online world there are two ways of providing different experiences of game play - maps, currency, towns, factions, war, and so on. There are two really fun and different ways which interact differently with the game, and therefore only one can be utilized at a time. He figured out how to have both operating together.

He has a server and worldwide fan base. People are joining and he most likely is going to have to upgrade the server plan. In our phone call yesterday, S21 told me he hasnít been online much lately due to work, but he did look at the metrics of his server and a new an unique id logged in an average of one every 5 minutes for a the time frame his was looking at. There is nothing that mashes the two experiences together like this and it is taking off. Good for him.

His call was about next weekend and he was making plans for him and GF to come out for a visit. He is also going to invited the other four kids. Going to the park, swimming, and other fun plans are in the works.

Him and GF somehow came into bags of frozen french fries from the factory - large bags! With the poor cell reception I didnít quite get the how of it all. Perhaps from a factory tour. At any rate, I said YEAH! (I love french fries, by the way.) Told him I could bring out my deep fryer and we could deep fry and have different salts and spices for various batches. He asked GF while on the phone and I heard her squeal in delight with that idea. So deep frying it is.

Last night after work I visited S19 and S18. I had phoned D18 directly to see how she was doing. She did get a job at the bowling alley. There is a restaurant, bar, arcade, and lots of lanes. She is learning lots of different jobs as one time youíre a waitress, next day running the arcade, then a bartender. The other staff are a lot of fun she says. A funny thing is her boss told her she needs to try every single drink so she know what to recommend to people. Itís fun to see D18ís reactions to being treated like an adult.

When I arrived and was greeted, I got a genuine hug. Not a begrudging one from a teenager who is too cool to hug her Dad. smile Nope, a daughter who is doing well and is happy to see her Dad.

I offered supper, either eat in or go out. D18 immediately choose to go out. So the three of us headed off the steak/rib place and had a great meal and visit.

D18 shared she does find it different, at time boring, living in the city. They have no yard, and everything costs money. I listened and agreed. I did mention that when school starts things will be different. She knows and is looking forward to it. And, of course, I told her she can come out anytime for a visit. Even just a day, see the dogs, even if Iím at work (Do let me know though. Got enough weird unexplained tracks around here. And yes, had another unexplained interloper around here)

XW, since D18ís graduation, has only spoke to S21, once. She still texts him at goofy times. This week after one of the 11:00pm texts he responded the next morning when he got up, at 5:30am. Told her he works all day and goes to bed by 10:00pm and gets up early to get ready for work. She responded immediately stating she also gets up early to go to work. S21 laughed when telling me this since she texts late in the night even to midnight and then also gets up early. When does she sleep? And is she really working?

Anyhow, that day she again calls during the work day. He ignore the morning call, and answered her 11:00am actual phone call. He was compiling the program and had a few minutes.

Small talk. Thatís it. Mom did ask about S19, as he never answers her calls she said. S21 told her, S19 is doing fine, D18 is doing fine, everyone is doing fine. Less than two minutes and she hung up.

S21 and my calls last much longer. We got stuff to said, I guess.

Anyhow, that a brief snapshot of my world. Didnít even tell you about the bus fault this week. A crow shorted out a substation. A huge boom and blue flames shooting into the sky was witnessed by the restaurant patrons across the street. They then got to see me, and three other guys, for the next four hours in the pouring rain repairing the damage and then light, air conditioning, cooking, etc. return to their dinning experience.

It was a small fault, only around 45 million watts. Lol

Have a great day.

D
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/25/20 10:18 PM
Is S23 by any chance a big guy? I used to say, when I worked in a busy urgent care center, that Iíd never had a 5í8Ē guy faint on me, but give me a 6í6Ē Greco -Roman wrestler and I can almost guarantee you heíll faint if we stick him.

Your son should always be lying down when he has blood drawn, then sit up after a few minutes, then wait a few more minutes before standing.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/26/20 04:12 PM
Good Morning

kml - S23 is 5í 9Ē. An inch taller than his old man.

It took six hours, and a pitcher of iced tea, to get the lawn mowed. It rained during hours three to four; I didnít care I just kept going. The rain and cloud was welcomed as it was baking hot.

A bit of a funny story.

Three weeks ago, I was cleaning out my closet. I was purposefully digging out XWís abandoned clothes. I hung them upon my door on the hook; summer dresses, fancy evening dresses, two brideís maid dresses, and her wedding dress.

For weeks they hung there. I contemplated what to do with them all. Give them away. See if D18 wanted them. I was settling on burning them this weekend while cleaning up the fallen trees. I decided not to bother D18, she most likely would not want them, and I wouldnít want to see her in them.

Two weeks ago, on Saturday my Mom and me upgraded her entertainment system. She decided that her 20Ē tube TV should finally be upgraded to one of those flat screen do-hickeys. Also, her 1970 200 lbs console stereo quit working and tubes for the amplifier circuitry are rare and hard to come by, so repair is a laborious task.

We got her a new 50Ē flat screen, surround sound 5.1 amplifier, two 3 foot tall side speakers, a center speaker, two rear speakers, a sub woofer, and two wireless speakers for her dining room and work out room. A blu-ray player, new PVR for the satellite, record player, and hooked up her old VCR, and tape cassette player. Added on an Apple TV for her online purchased movies and music, and the ability to mirror from herís or otherís phones. A component stand with TV mount to hold all the stuff. And purchased a remote to control it all. Itís a significant upgrade.

S19 came out to help me move out the old and bring in the new. I spent that weekend setting up everything. Spent the next weekend finishing the programming of the remote and final adjustments. Mom is very pleased.

Anyhow, back to yesterday, I was getting ready to mow the grass here and at Momís. I needed to refill my diesel fuel container so needed to make a trip to the gas station. Saturday is also the only day I can take stuff to the dump and recycling, it is the same place. I had a few weeks of recycling myself, since I had been busy with Momís TV. Also had a lot of boxes at her place to deal with.

So threw my gas can into the back of the truck and figured Iím just going to burnt all the cardboard later as I have so much grass to get going on. I then considered volume of cardboard. smile I decide I best pick up Momís cardboard (since if it rains - no fire) and get rid of it. I then consider the dresses.

I figure, just toss them out. I did think a fire would be more therapeutic; something along the lines of atomizing them. Smoke into the wind, and gone - like my marriage. Ah, three weeks and I donít want to get ďstuckĒ having those hanging on my door forever.

So, off with the work boots, and upstairs to my bedroom, to get the dresses.

Crash! The hook breaks! Right then! As I am coming for them. Lol.

Dresses spilled all over the floor. I try to pick them up, back into the neat and orderly group they were. Tidily all hanging and hangers aligned. Nope! Some dresses have am arm off the hanger, others are completely off. The wedding and brideís maid dresses in their protective bags are in disarray.

I try, and therefore fail, to recover the dresses into a semblance of order. I end up gathering them in an arm full of slippery plastic bags and pokey hangers. Dresses unceremoniously drag behind me. They bounce down each step as I head back to my waiting work boots. The wedding dress somehow passed me and got underfoot as I went around the turn in the staircase. Darn thing almost sent my tumbling.

I get to the back room and drop this pile of fabric, sequins, veil, and lace. Tie my boots back on and continue on to the truck. Enroute, the tan brideís maid dress slips out of the bag and splays out upon the gravel lane. Sigh. I do a wide turn with this squirmy trailer-like cargo and scoop up the wayward dress.

I get to the still closed tailgate and throw the pile in. Of course 2/3rds of it misses, hitting the tailing gate and falling to the ground. I pick those up and toss them in.

I havenít used my truck in a week, and from all the rain over the last week, recall six inches fell, the box is full of water. The truck box slopes forward so there is about 4 inches of water in front leading to nothing at the gate. The pile of dresses and bags and adornments are bobbing around in the truck.

This so far from the neat and easy pile of carefully laid dresses I had envisioned. LOL.

This drawn out process gave plenty of time for me to reconsider. Which I did a few times. The first being as the hook broke. Weird. Iíd swear these dresses just donít want to leave. smile

I went to my Momís and piled in all the packaging material from the purchases. It filled the tucked right up. I took my time going to the dump, as by this time I am thinking something is trying to stop me and for sure this is all going to blow out and scatter across the highway.

I get there without incident, unload all the recycling, and head up to the garbage bin. There is a large ramp and turn around area built up so the bins are at ground level, making it easier to throw stuff in.

The dresses are a wet, icky water soaked, stained, leaves and dirt stuck on them, mess. I drag this pile out, which has gain some weight. And of course one of the bags has to drain onto my left boot. Oh well. I get it all thrown into the steel garbage bin. In a last act of defiance the wedding dress, which Iím becoming more sure is possessed, lands and flops over into the perfectly laid out position reserved for such a fine garment.

And thatís the end of the wedding dress. Dirty, dragged, dank, and appearing to have been placed with forethought and care. Itís such a symbolism of the MLCerís new relationship.

Iíll replace my door hook. Shrug. Itís no big deal. And thatís kind of symbolic of the LBSís path. There is so much damage, and in the end, itís just a hook, not nearly as much as we first feel it is.

Have a great day.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/26/20 06:47 PM
You have made me chuckle before but for this one I was literally laughing so hard I was choking.

That story was so funny and funny-tragic that it was worth it not to get them donated (I was rooting for that outcome). You told the story perfectly, as usual.

I see the camera panning out and away from you in your truck on the way home, rain lifted, fields spreading out, woods ahead, you are smiling and a little sad but smiling.

Your life as Russian novel continues.

But I might have to use that scene in something I am writing.

Oh my gosh, I am going to read that again. I need another good laugh.

Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/26/20 08:10 PM
Also this all made me think of the song "Signs" by "Bloc Party." I don't know if I ever told you about it. Give it a listen.
Posted By: scout12 Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/26/20 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Gerda
Also this all made me think of the song "Signs" by "Bloc Party." I don't know if I ever told you about it. Give it a listen.


I LOVE this song.

This story made me smile too. The possessed wedding dress. Too funny.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/26/20 11:00 PM
there are no coincidences
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/29/20 11:47 AM
Good Morning

Gerda - smile Glad you enjoyed it. I was just shaking my head as this garment kept trying to impeding my progress.

scout - Possessed. Itís white. Like a ghost. Lol. Good thing I didnít do this a night.

bttrfly - I did think of that. It seemed like a test of sorts. To see if I was sure or not. It was funny living it, seeing all the ďcoincidentalĒ happenings, as they happened.

Sunday turned out to be a gorgeous day. I pruned my feature trees. Had a really nice fire. Sat outside until the flames were nothing more than a faint flicker, and the stars became bright.

D
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/29/20 01:04 PM
Wow DnJ...you canít make this stuff up. The symbolism is so fascinating. I agree with Bttrfly...not a coincidence. Love your stories about your kids. What a great group of humans you have there. No doubt they take after their dad and also their pre-MLC mom who, I recall, was a great mom for most of their lives. The differences between her then and her now is really quite mind-boggling. In hindsight, I have realized that my XH was always the kind of person who cheats on his spouse, I just had blinders on. But your XW? From your description, not at all.

Hope you have many more gorgeous days ahead of you!!! (((HUGS)))
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/30/20 02:00 AM
Hello DV

Yes, W was a great Mom. Iíve been careful not to rewrite my, our, history. Not extra rosy, not darker.

XWís transformation is pretty mind-boggling. The difference from then to now, is staggering.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/30/20 02:21 AM
I so remember when I fell apart. I was shattered. On the ground sifting through the piece of myself. So lost. I cried ďGod help me. Iím yourís, make me who Iím supposed to beĒ.


Me: Hey God.

God: Hello.....

Me: I'm falling apart. Can you put me back together?

God: I would rather not.

Me: Why?

God: Because you aren't a puzzle.

Me: What about all of the pieces of my life that are falling down onto the ground?

God: Let them stay there for a while. They fell off for a reason. Take some time and decide if you need any of those pieces back.

Me: You don't understand! I'm breaking down!

God: No - you don't understand. You are breaking through. What you are feeling are just growing pains. You are shedding the things and the people in your life that are holding you back. You aren't falling apart. You are falling into place. Relax. Take some deep breaths and allow those things you don't need anymore to fall off of you. Quit holding onto the pieces that don't fit you anymore. Let them fall off. Let them go.

Me: Once I start doing that, what will be left of me?

God: Only the very best pieces of you.

Me: I'm scared of changing.

God: I keep telling you - YOU AREN'T CHANGING!! YOU ARE BECOMING!

Me: Becoming who?

God: Becoming who I created you to be! A person of light and love and charity and hope and courage and joy and mercy and grace and compassion. I made you for more than the shallow pieces you have decided to adorn yourself with that you cling to with such greed and fear. Let those things fall off of you. I love you! Don't change! ... Become! Become! Become who I made you to be. I'm going to keep telling you this until you remember it.

Me: There goes another piece.

God: Yep. Let it be.

Me: So ... I'm not broken?

God: Of course Not! - but you are breaking like the dawn. It's a new day. Become!!!




Amen.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/30/20 05:01 AM
Beautiful DnJ. Love it!!!
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/30/20 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello DV

Yes, W was a great Mom. Iíve been careful not to rewrite my, our, history. Not extra rosy, not darker.

XWís transformation is pretty mind-boggling. The difference from then to now, is staggering.

D
In hindsight I think that my own ex worked very hard for quite a lot of years being the person she thought she should be / wanted to be and buried the person that she was. Even with her so-called MLC - in her case - I don't think she ever did become that person. She got her tattoos, went out and partied with her friends and tried to act younger than she was. Then ran off with an older man and undoubtedly is now living the life of a woman who is also not her but is a meek older housewife. So much potential lost.

I think that for many of them that run off because they don't feel that they fit where they are that they never become what they could be - which leads into ...

Originally Posted by DnJ
Me: There goes another piece.

God: Yep. Let it be.

Me: So ... I'm not broken?

God: Of course Not! - but you are breaking like the dawn. It's a new day. Become!!!

Amen.
Nice imagery. It sorted of reminded me of when I was a lad and would see chicks that were having a hard time hatching. I'd help pull the shell away and soon they were up and peeping around living their new lives.
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 07/30/20 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by DnJ
In hindsight I think that my own ex worked very hard for quite a lot of years being the person she thought she should be / wanted to be and buried the person that she was. Even with her so-called MLC - in her case - I don't think she ever did become that person.


I think this is my H exactly. I didn't realize that when this all started. As is obvious from my first four years of posts. I thought I was waiting for the real H to come back, a great man, kind, good father, ethical, faithful.

Now I am starting to think that he was trying to be those things and it never felt like it fit.

I wrote more but I realized it was kind of a highjack so I will put the rest in my thread.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/05/20 12:50 PM
Good Morning

DV - Thank you.


Andrew - Yes, MLC, MLT, or just mid life choices, we all evaluate where we are and what weíve accomplished. Do we have a sense of pride and fulfillment or a sense of time slipping by and so much still not done. Of course, a bit of both I suppose is the usual. But, for those with poor coping skills and less than happy healthy pasts, they spiral out of control. Grabbing at pieces that need to be let go. So much fear. And they regress, attempting to regain lost time.

Much harder than the shell the fledgling chick is pushing its way through, the crisis personís shell is the encompassing pain and trauma of their past. Immutable and unyielding. They seldom break through and enjoy their new happy lives. For while upon this crisis path, they remain forever locked within their pain. And no amount of running, spending, affairs, drinking, drugs, etc. will lead to happiness. For, as you said, they donít become.

How one transitions, how one drops the pieces, matters. Our lives are not about the destination, they are about the journey. How we walk our path, matters. How we walk the path, is the important part. We never reach that destination, there is always further to strive for. Itís each immutable step, each moment that passes from present to past, in which we get to choose and live and become.

Itís really satisfying to have so many good people here walking with me.


Gerda - I always like reading your posts. Donít worry they are not highjacking. smile

I cannot say if a MLC spouse never felt like they fit into the lives they were leading. Good, ethical, faithful, kind, and so on. I believe most did actually live the person they were. Letters, gifts, memories, pictures, etc. all point to that confirmation.

What is clear, is that the MLC spouse feels like they donít fit now.

As their torment rose up within, they felt more and more disconnected from their lives. They never shared this with us or anyone. Who would? It must feel like madness as your known life slips into shadow. Their sadness and depression silently reaches a critical tipping point. A point at which their past will remain silent no longer.

The emotional floodgates open and drown the once loving spouse. Good, ethical, faithful, kind, and so on, is lost in the deep dark waters of depression. Frantic behaviours of a desperate person take over. Desperate for peace. Desperate for a cease to their nonstop torment. Desperate for the next gulp of air. The person is lost within an irrational crisis, and they will do anything in an attempt to survive.

Were they always this person and just trying to live the good and proper life? I believe no.

Now, in truth we all have seeds for all manner of behaviour. For but a chance, my own upbringing could have been different and Iíd be the one in crisis and not XW.

I believe XW, and your H, lived authentically. They were who they seemed to be. They lived their good traits.

Presently, they are an emotional train wreck. Stumbling along, trying to find peace and happiness; and continually failing. For it comes from within not from outside. And their insides are still a mess.

The past is immutable but our memories are surprisingly malleable. Consider carefully when examining the memory of the past.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/07/20 12:49 AM
Hello

What a busy week.

S21 and GF came out on Saturday and went home Sunday. S19 came out Saturday and left today, Thursday. D18 came out Monday and she also left today.

These last minute visiting plans were made Friday night, so I did not have time to get the week off.

Anyhow, the four of us went to the park on Saturday for a few hours of sun and swimming. Was a good time. I ended up getting a bad sunburn. I usually work around home in shorts, shirt, socks, and work boots. At the beach it was shorts and shirt. My tender skin from foot to just below the knee, hasnít seen much sunlight and the four hours really cooked it. Itís still red and hurts. And socks and boots rubbing all day ainít much fun. Lol

Saturday night we cooked up those aforementioned fries. Freshly deep fried fries and hamburgers. Oh what a meal! We all ate sooooo much. smile And an evening of movies and games. (And snacks) Was a good time.

The late night movie was just S19 and me. After The movie he talked about Mom. She actually called him during the movie. Around 11:30pm. She hasnít reached out to him since D18ís graduation and she barely spoke to him then. Of course we didnít hear his phone ring as the movie was playing.

I asked S19 if he would have answered Mom. He said no, as he has nothing really to say to her. This brought up a good conversation about BD, Mom, MLC, and so on. All the kids got this situation figured an accepted. As S19 said, Mom is a different person now. Sheís a stranger. Itís almost three years since she just dump them and ran off with OM.

He doesnít hate her. Just indifferent. He doesnít know her. And not interested in finding out.

With a few guiding questions he did say that the canyon between her and him isnít insurmountable; it would however require significant work and effort from her to repair and rebuild. Something, for at the moment, both of us think she is not able to do.

It was also surmised that Momís phone call was because he and the other kids were in town and my house. She could, and probably did, see all the cars parked in the yard.

For the days I was at work, S19 and D18 cleaned a bedroom, tore down and old swing set and took it to the metal recycling, organized the pantry, and gather and took most of D18ís still here clothes and her school supplies.

I came home to a ready meal on Tuesday. Was a nice surprise. And on Wednesday we were to have a fire and roast hotdogs; as I was informed by D18 in that afternoon. Unfortunately there was an equipment problem at work and I ended up getting home at 8:30pm. Oh well, next time. Apparently the hotdogs were really good.

A very good friend posted on her FB page - "You've given up your whole life to be the person you are now. Is it worth it?"

My reply was - Yes! Definitely!

Iím 52, divorced single smile , have great kids and family, lots of fulfillment and joy. I have people here and IRL who care and love me, and I to them. My investment of life has been so very worth it!

D
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/07/20 05:05 AM
John Roedel?

Originally Posted by DnJ
I so remember when I fell apart. I was shattered. On the ground sifting through the piece of myself. So lost. I cried ďGod help me. Iím yourís, make me who Iím supposed to beĒ.


Me: Hey God.

God: Hello.....

Me: I'm falling apart. Can you put me back together?

God: I would rather not.

Me: Why?

God: Because you aren't a puzzle.

Me: What about all of the pieces of my life that are falling down onto the ground?

God: Let them stay there for a while. They fell off for a reason. Take some time and decide if you need any of those pieces back.

Me: You don't understand! I'm breaking down!

God: No - you don't understand. You are breaking through. What you are feeling are just growing pains. You are shedding the things and the people in your life that are holding you back. You aren't falling apart. You are falling into place. Relax. Take some deep breaths and allow those things you don't need anymore to fall off of you. Quit holding onto the pieces that don't fit you anymore. Let them fall off. Let them go.

Me: Once I start doing that, what will be left of me?

God: Only the very best pieces of you.

Me: I'm scared of changing.

God: I keep telling you - YOU AREN'T CHANGING!! YOU ARE BECOMING!

Me: Becoming who?

God: Becoming who I created you to be! A person of light and love and charity and hope and courage and joy and mercy and grace and compassion. I made you for more than the shallow pieces you have decided to adorn yourself with that you cling to with such greed and fear. Let those things fall off of you. I love you! Don't change! ... Become! Become! Become who I made you to be. I'm going to keep telling you this until you remember it.

Me: There goes another piece.

God: Yep. Let it be.

Me: So ... I'm not broken?

God: Of course Not! - but you are breaking like the dawn. It's a new day. Become!!!




Amen.
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/08/20 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Yes, MLC, MLT, or just mid life choices, we all evaluate where we are and what weíve accomplished. Do we have a sense of pride and fulfillment or a sense of time slipping by and so much still not done. Of course, a bit of both I suppose is the usual. But, for those with poor coping skills and less than happy healthy pasts, they spiral out of control. Grabbing at pieces that need to be let go. So much fear. And they regress, attempting to regain lost time.


Hi DnJ - still reading along. This resonates a lot with me. I went through my own mini-crisis prior to turning 40. It was strictly focused around not finishing university- for some inane reason I was convinced that I had to finish by the time I was 40. It made zero sense. But it did consume almost all of my thinking for a good 2-3 years and a but beyond.

I eventually calmed down and realized life isn't over at 40. But remembering this period of my life helps me to have compassion for what WASes do. Their decisions and choices are not good ones, they are based on highly charged emotions. So was my own decision to panic about university.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Much harder than the shell the fledgling chick is pushing its way through, the crisis personís shell is the encompassing pain and trauma of their past. Immutable and unyielding. They seldom break through and enjoy their new happy lives. For while upon this crisis path, they remain forever locked within their pain. And no amount of running, spending, affairs, drinking, drugs, etc. will lead to happiness. For, as you said, they donít become.


I often wonder about W and what the trauma was that she experienced in the past. It must have been big, and it must have had a very profound impact on who she is/was. She never wanted to discuss her past. I assumed at the time she had made peace with it. But I am finding out now that it was much more - and her burying it had probably built up to the inevitable breaking point.

It makes sense now, but only in hindsight. When you're in it, you cannot see it.

Originally Posted by DnJ

I cannot say if a MLC spouse never felt like they fit into the lives they were leading. Good, ethical, faithful, kind, and so on. I believe most did actually live the person they were. Letters, gifts, memories, pictures, etc. all point to that confirmation.

What is clear, is that the MLC spouse feels like they donít fit now.

As their torment rose up within, they felt more and more disconnected from their lives. They never shared this with us or anyone. Who would? It must feel like madness as your known life slips into shadow. Their sadness and depression silently reaches a critical tipping point. A point at which their past will remain silent no longer.

The emotional floodgates open and drown the once loving spouse. Good, ethical, faithful, kind, and so on, is lost in the deep dark waters of depression. Frantic behaviours of a desperate person take over. Desperate for peace. Desperate for a cease to their nonstop torment. Desperate for the next gulp of air. The person is lost within an irrational crisis, and they will do anything in an attempt to survive.

Were they always this person and just trying to live the good and proper life? I believe no.

Now, in truth we all have seeds for all manner of behaviour. For but a chance, my own upbringing could have been different and Iíd be the one in crisis and not XW.


I only have an inkling of what it feels like, but the experiences I have been through and the burying tactics I used to survive those events have taught me that these things are emotional timebombs. You never know when they will go off until it happens. And by that point it becomes fight or flight - pushing those closest to you as far away as possible because you cannot deal with the pressure for one more second.

I had a very brief brush with this during a family dinner with my M and StepF. M was going off the rails on one of her BPD episodes brought on by a mundane thing I said, and she started yelling and screaming and slamming doors. I hit the breaking point and literally passed out, I hit the floor. The emptional trauma was so great, it overwhelmed all of my body's ability to keep itself under control, and the next thing I knew when I came to was running out the door, tunnel vision- I had to get out of that house and get away as fast as possible.

An hour went by before I calmed down and was able to return, but I'll always remember that experience.

Anyway, it's probably relatively close to what a MLCer feels like. Except for them there is no calming down and there is no break.

Not sure why I wrote all that, but there it is.

I hope you are well, D - take care and stay strong smile
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/09/20 12:05 PM
Good Morning bttrfly

I had to look up John Roedel, I didnít know who he was. It sounds pretty similar.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/09/20 12:37 PM
Good Morning IW

Thank you for sharing that.

Yes, life isnít over at 40. Weíre you enrolled in university at the time or just felt you needed to go back and complete it?

Originally Posted by IronWill
It made zero sense. But it did consume almost all of my thinking for a good 2-3 years and a bit beyond.

The pull of the irrational - makes zero sense.

I also figure my XWís past trauma must have been big. I have tenuous evidence of some pretty horrible events that happened to her at 7 and 13 - those ages she reverts to.

Itís not so much our wives didnít want to discuss their past - itís that they didnít even know their past. Itís buried. That emotional bomb ticking away. When that all that blows up. Yikes! What a mess. Itís little wonder they run.

Your insights into being absolutely driven by highly charged emotions is very valuable. It serves you well, fostering a high level of empathy and compassion. Forgiveness, if not already obtained, must feel close at hand.

Originally Posted by IronWill
Not sure why I wrote all that, but there it is.

Iím glad you did write it.

From my point of view: Writing, sharing, are steps toward acceptance. Posting makes it ďmoreĒ real. We timidly share that which we have carried within. Hopeful for a validating response. Hopeful to be understood. Hopeful to find an empathetic ear. And fearful of not. And yet we leap with only our faith.

We share. We grow. We heal. We accept. We stand tall and strong.

Have a great day IW.

D
Posted By: Kindly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/09/20 01:39 PM
Hi Dnj,

Just wanted to say hi and that Iím reading along and love the updates on your kids and the happy visits you guys have.
Have a great day!
Kindly,
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/11/20 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by DnJ


I also figure my XWís past trauma must have been big. I have tenuous evidence of some pretty horrible events that happened to her at 7 and 13 - those ages she reverts to.

Itís not so much our wives didnít want to discuss their past - itís that they didnít even know their past. Itís buried. That emotional bomb ticking away. When that all that blows up.


I'm at my yearly trip to the beautiful island and in the evenings after riding my bike along the water and into the sunset dusk trees, I have been listening to this podcast called, "Caught," about young people caught in the criminal justice system. It's a truly amazing podcast and so very important. And for us battle-scarred MLC warriors, it's both interesting and painful to listen to what happens to kids who are hurt at such a young age and respond with violence as they enter the teen years. I think it might interest you, DnJ, you are so tuned into kids. I wonder what many of my most "at-risk" students would become if they had a mentor like you in their lives. Well, I don't wonder, I know.

(Did you ever think of being a foster parent to a teen? I am going to do that when things calm down with my sitch and my kids are older. I had a lot of foster kids as students and have always felt called to help them through their last year or two of high school.)

I have so many things to tell you but as usual I don't have time and it's so daunting. I am also deep in the thick of a writing project. You have not visited my thread in a while. The coffee got cold and the naimoooonimooni bar got stale.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/12/20 03:26 AM
Hello Kind. Thank you for dropping in and reading along.

Gerda, how are you? Yes, it has been a while since we had a visit. Weíll brew some fresh coffee and have ourselves a nice chat.

Thank you for the confidence in my mentoring abilities. Iíve never considered fostering before. An interesting idea.

- - - -

This weekend was very nice weather and with enough heat and no rain I got all my lawn mowed this time. As I made the 5 minute loops around the yard, Iíd pick another apple off the tree. Yummy, fresh apples. Iíd eat the juicy flesh and throw the core onto the cut grass. If an apple a day... then Iím good for a few weeks. smile

I visited my Dad in the care home. He is doing well and eager to come out for a supper. My Mom and I had a supper together on Sunday. She cooked up a roast and potatoes. The kids are planning on another visit in a couple of weeks, before University. We are making plans to have grandma and grandpa over for another French fry and hamburger cookout.

Today at work, S21 called me and invited me over for supper. He, GF, and I had a nice visit and some delivery food. S21 wanted to treat me and wouldnít let me pay. Kind of nice having my son treat the old man to a meal.

During supper D18 text me to let me know she was coming out tonight to stay over and pack up some more stuff tomorrow. She is staying for tomorrowís supper; the menu is left up to her. I suspect we will be having pizza. smile

D18 actually arrived here between the writing of the first two paragraphs and I put this down to give her my full attention. She told me about her work, and life. Lots of good stories from work. Lots of good viewpoints from life. We spoke for an hour, which has put me past my bedtime. Lol.

Feeling pretty happy with such good kids.

D
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/14/20 07:19 PM
Hi D -

Apologies for the late reply, it has been a busy week at work.

Originally Posted by DnJ


Yes, life isnít over at 40. Weíre you enrolled in university at the time or just felt you needed to go back and complete it?

I started university after serving in the military, so I was already older than most students. Pressures of working full time eventually meant that I had to let one go, so after a few years, I left uni, not finishing. I told myself I could always go back later.

10 years became 15 and it was a wakeup call - to realize that I did not have forever. Somehow I panicked about this and it became all I could think about. I had to finish, and then I had to finish by 40 or "that was it" I rationalized.

Looking back on it now it seems ridiculous but st the time i was dead serious and anxious about doing this. W supported me - and after 2 or 3 years it finally dawned at me that there would be a world on the other side of 40.

Anyone that tried to tell me that would have been met with resistance on my part. I had to find out on my own.

I still don't know why it happened, but I think it was triggered by the death of my stepF from cancer. He was the one good parent we had and losing him after his second round of treatments after being in remission for 5 years was very traumatic.

Originally Posted by IronWill

The pull of the irrational - makes zero sense.

I also figure my XWís past trauma must have been big. I have tenuous evidence of some pretty horrible events that happened to her at 7 and 13 - those ages she reverts to.

Itís not so much our wives didnít want to discuss their past - itís that they didnít even know their past. Itís buried. That emotional bomb ticking away. When that all that blows up. Yikes! What a mess. Itís little wonder they run.

Yes - did your xW ever discuss it with you? My W never wanted to. I think it came up in a conversation once, and she dodged it so I let it alone. Pushing seemed the wrong thing to do - I should have remembered that after BD but I did not.

Quote
Your insights into being absolutely driven by highly charged emotions is very valuable. It serves you well, fostering a high level of empathy and compassion. Forgiveness, if not already obtained, must feel close at hand.

From my point of view: Writing, sharing, are steps toward acceptance. Posting makes it ďmoreĒ real. We timidly share that which we have carried within. Hopeful for a validating response. Hopeful to be understood. Hopeful to find an empathetic ear. And fearful of not. And yet we leap with only our faith.

We share. We grow. We heal. We accept. We stand tall and strong.

Have a great day IW.

D

It took me a long while to remember what had happened. Partly because of age, partly because I think I had buried it because it was an embarrassing episode in my life. Strange how we recall these things when we need to.

I'm glad I found your thread, D. Compassion and understanding are hard to come by sometimes when there is so much hurt and anger and pain to wade through. Your words are helping me to feel better that the path I've chosen isn't without merit and is not a lost cause.

Thank you again - and take care smile
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/16/20 03:42 PM
Good Morning IW

Originally Posted by IronWill
Yes - did your xW ever discuss it with you? My W never wanted to. I think it came up in a conversation once, and she dodged it so I let it alone. Pushing seemed the wrong thing to do - I should have remembered that after BD but I did not.

My W mentioned her past a few times over our 30+ years. She hated growing up in her house. Her parents were extremely overprotective to the point of abusive, truth be told. She survived be hiding in her room and lying to her parents. As soon as she could leave she was gong to. Thatís how she portrayed her childhood, verbatim.

She never was allowed friends over. Anyone who came to the house needed an appointment. Seriously! (That is so very much different than my parents and family - warm and welcoming.) If someone showed up unannounced her parents would peek out the always closed heavy curtains and not answer the door.

One time, her brother was very worried something had happened and we ended up at the house with him. For over half an hour he knocked and tried to get his Mom and Dad to answer. Finally the door burst open and his Dad exploded at him, telling him to go away and call before coming over, then slammed the door.

XW moved in with me when she turned 18 and her parents basically disowned her. Just like she repeated with her kids. Her brother received similar treatment. Both of them had their house keys taken away when they moved out. All of my kids and their GF (and my housekeeper) have keys to my house. Ha, until recently I never even locked the door.

There are two specific episodes XW brought up a couple of times during our relationship. The times when she was 7 and 13. These were family trips to visit her grandparents, uncle, and aunt. She never had too many details of those trips. The last trip was suppose to be 6 weeks, and on week 3 there was a huge blow out between her Dad and his brother (her uncle). That was it - trip over. Everyone packed up and left. She never saw her grandparents or other relatives again. Until we reached out and went to visit them.

There was always some hidden vibe. Something dark and unsaid. Her grandparents hid stuff from uncle, who hid stuff from them and aunt, who hid stuff from.. well you get idea. Her grandparents begged us to not say anything to her Dad because he would not talk to them again. He had actually threatened them with that. Sheesh, what a mixed up family.

Piecing the clues together over the years, I suspect some form of assault, most likely sexual, from uncle when she was 7 and 13. Those two ages XW reverts to when she becomes agitated or pushed. Her dominant ďageĒ is 18, her age when her parents disowned her.

The last visit to the family, was after grandmaís death and grandpa upon his death bed. XW was frightened of seeing uncle. She asked me to be with her when they spoke. He had some heirlooms for her, which he refused to mail to her. Made her come out to see him. She couldnít say why she felt such fear and anxiety; she just did.

Two months later she completely destroyed her world. In an epic bomb drop, at Thanksgiving dinner, in front of me, kids, parents, sonís GF, she announced her affair, announced she was moving out, and that she didnít want the children. To say all h3ll broke loose is a bit of an understatement. smile OMG! Everyone had such varying reactions. My Dad became furious. Oldest son went into a breathing arresting situation. One son went outside. I sat there, at the head of the table, in utter disbelief. Shock just doesnít quite convey that night. Three hours and she was gone.

XW did mention her past, not discuss it. She didnít really remember why or what happened so long ago. Looking back her descent did start about two years before BD. She became manic with exercising, doing 10-12 hours a day. She lost weight, becoming ďcrazyĒ skinny. She would get up at four in the morning to exercise for 2-3 hours before breakfast. And she absolutely need to be outside, in the sunshine.

Of course all this unravelling of her psyche was hidden from us and the world. Itís after BD and with the admissions she made, I somewhat pieced together her journey. By the time we had our last family vacation (two months before BD) she had destroyed her home based childcare business. She told me for those last two months she cried everyday for hours on end. She thought she was going crazy, she admitted three days after she left. But, thought a crazy person wouldnít realize that, therefore she was sane.

Originally Posted by IW
I'm glad I found your thread, D. Compassion and understanding are hard to come by sometimes when there is so much hurt and anger and pain to wade through. Your words are helping me to feel better that the path I've chosen isn't without merit and is not a lost cause.

Thank you IW. That means a lot to me.

The path of the LBS is full of pain and anger. Choosing compassion and understanding is so very worthwhile. I am glad you see the merit of such a journey. Empathy and forgiveness is never a lost cause.

Stay the course. It does get rough. And is so very worth it.

D
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/17/20 12:04 PM
Good morning D.

Originally Posted by DnJ

My W mentioned her past a few times over our 30+ years. She hated growing up in her house. Her parents were extremely overprotective to the point of abusive, truth be told. She survived be hiding in her room and lying to her parents. As soon as she could leave she was gong to. Thatís how she portrayed her childhood, verbatim.

She never was allowed friends over. Anyone who came to the house needed an appointment. Seriously! (That is so very much different than my parents and family - warm and welcoming.) If someone showed up unannounced her parents would peek out the always closed heavy curtains and not answer the door.

One time, her brother was very worried something had happened and we ended up at the house with him. For over half an hour he knocked and tried to get his Mom and Dad to answer. Finally the door burst open and his Dad exploded at him, telling him to go away and call before coming over, then slammed the door.

XW moved in with me when she turned 18 and her parents basically disowned her. Just like she repeated with her kids. Her brother received similar treatment. Both of them had their house keys taken away when they moved out. All of my kids and their GF (and my housekeeper) have keys to my house. Ha, until recently I never even locked the door.

There are two specific episodes XW brought up a couple of times during our relationship. The times when she was 7 and 13. These were family trips to visit her grandparents, uncle, and aunt. She never had too many details of those trips. The last trip was suppose to be 6 weeks, and on week 3 there was a huge blow out between her Dad and his brother (her uncle). That was it - trip over. Everyone packed up and left. She never saw her grandparents or other relatives again. Until we reached out and went to visit them.

There was always some hidden vibe. Something dark and unsaid. Her grandparents hid stuff from uncle, who hid stuff from them and aunt, who hid stuff from.. well you get idea. Her grandparents begged us to not say anything to her Dad because he would not talk to them again. He had actually threatened them with that. Sheesh, what a mixed up family.

Piecing the clues together over the years, I suspect some form of assault, most likely sexual, from uncle when she was 7 and 13. Those two ages XW reverts to when she becomes agitated or pushed. Her dominant ďageĒ is 18, her age when her parents disowned her.

The last visit to the family, was after grandmaís death and grandpa upon his death bed. XW was frightened of seeing uncle. She asked me to be with her when they spoke. He had some heirlooms for her, which he refused to mail to her. Made her come out to see him. She couldnít say why she felt such fear and anxiety; she just did.

Two months later she completely destroyed her world. In an epic bomb drop, at Thanksgiving dinner, in front of me, kids, parents, sonís GF, she announced her affair, announced she was moving out, and that she didnít want the children. To say all h3ll broke loose is a bit of an understatement. smile OMG! Everyone had such varying reactions. My Dad became furious. Oldest son went into a breathing arresting situation. One son went outside. I sat there, at the head of the table, in utter disbelief. Shock just doesnít quite convey that night. Three hours and she was gone.

XW did mention her past, not discuss it. She didnít really remember why or what happened so long ago. Looking back her descent did start about two years before BD. She became manic with exercising, doing 10-12 hours a day. She lost weight, becoming ďcrazyĒ skinny. She would get up at four in the morning to exercise for 2-3 hours before breakfast. And she absolutely need to be outside, in the sunshine.

Of course all this unravelling of her psyche was hidden from us and the world. Itís after BD and with the admissions she made, I somewhat pieced together her journey. By the time we had our last family vacation (two months before BD) she had destroyed her home based childcare business. She told me for those last two months she cried everyday for hours on end. She thought she was going crazy, she admitted three days after she left. But, thought a crazy person wouldnít realize that, therefore she was sane.

Wow, that is a lot of drama for one person to go through.

I often wonder if W has dealt with a similar situation and has never told anyone. I am vaguely aware of incidents that may have happened in W's late teens/early 20s but nothing specific. I never wanted to push, but it did cause me to wonder about Ws past internally. You never know what someone has gone through until they decide to tell you.

At BD W also said she felt like she had lost her identity. And that no one ever listened to her. The emotional manner in which she told me this was enough to make me believe she was absolutely telling the truth.

That is interesting that XW told you she felt like she was going crazy. My W said something similar at BD - that she felt like she was 3 different people all screaming to be heard at once. That sounds truly awful. And then i imagine myself with all the questions and wanting to know what was going on at that time. It must have been a nightmare for W.

Of course that doesn't excuse one's behavior, but it does help to explain somewhat that it is a real "thing" that is happening.
Originally Posted by D

Thank you IW. That means a lot to me.

The path of the LBS is full of pain and anger. Choosing compassion and understanding is so very worthwhile. I am glad you see the merit of such a journey. Empathy and forgiveness is never a lost cause.

Stay the course. It does get rough. And is so very worth it.

D


Yes some days it is very rough. Showing empathy and compassion while powering through the dark times can be a challenge.

But you are correct - it is very worth it.

Have a great day - and take care smile
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/19/20 04:51 PM
Good Morning IW

I think itís a common occurrence for someone in crisis to feel like they are going crazy. Oneís emotions pushing and pulling; forces one cannot seem to understand, and control is so far off. Yes, feeling crazy would be an understandable reaction.

Your Wís telling of having three different people all screaming and wanting to be heard. That does sound horrible. Makes one realize why these poor souls blow up their own life. This is so much about them.

Originally Posted by IronWill
Of course that doesn't excuse one's behavior, but it does help to explain somewhat that it is a real "thing" that is happening.

This is a real thing. Hard to accept that something like this could have happened.

Excuse is an interesting word and concept. I always looked more to what was the reason for something, rather than an excuse for it.

Yes, the MLCerís feelings and being driven isnít an excuse for their subsequent behaviour, however it does provide a reason for their behaviour.

Excuse, justifies and forgives, whatever one is excusing. I find that to be a little disingenuous. If something is justified than itís justified. If you forgive than forgive. Making excuses and then excusing doesnít (usually) actually forgive.

I want to propose something to you.

Quote
Of course that doesn't excuse forgive one's behavior...

This is one of the hang ups I see people having with forgiveness. The idea of excusing the behaviour.

These emotionally tormented people reach their breaking point and explode. Yes, that in of its self is not an excuse for their behaviour, nor do we forgive based upon that. Yet, we can forgive.

Separate the person from the behaviour. We forgive the person.

This has nothing to do with them earning it. They donít have to earn our forgiveness, for that is not forgiving. Although, for a time, that is the path one walks until they find that forgiving someone is actually more for them, than for the one being forgiven.

My XW probably has no idea that Iíve forgiven her. She doesnít speak to me. It is possible that our children have told her, although that is pretty unlikely.

The idea of one needing to earn forgiveness belongs to the realm of excusing. Look to reasons and forgiving, itís a better path.

Compassion, understand, and empathy.

One day, these difficult times will be a distant memory of a period of great reflection and personal growth. Continue walking the path.

You got this.

D
Posted By: cardinal Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/20/20 03:18 AM
Hi, D. These conversations between you and IronWill are insightful, as always. IW, when you mentioned your W saying at BD that she felt like she had lost her identity, I thought of my H saying at BD that he didnít know who he was at home anymore. I think he feels he has found a new identity with his new group of friends. From the outside, itís a superficial kind of ďfinding oneself,Ē but I suppose itís really not fair for me to judge. Heís trying to find a way of being that isnít painful. Iíve never had the feeling of losing my identity or not knowing who I am, so I can only imagine how uncomfortable that must be. Anyway, I always appreciate how thoughtful you both are.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Thekids are planning on another visit in a couple of weeks, before University. We are making plans to have grandma and grandpa over for another French fry and hamburger cookout.


More friesómore fried fries? Yum! I saw on Kindlyís thread youíre feeling under The weather this week. Take care of yourself, D! I hope you are feeling better soon.
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/20/20 12:18 PM

Good morning D -

Originally Posted by DnJ


I think itís a common occurrence for someone in crisis to feel like they are going crazy. Oneís emotions pushing and pulling; forces one cannot seem to understand, and control is so far off. Yes, feeling crazy would be an understandable reaction.

Your Wís telling of having three different people all screaming and wanting to be heard. That does sound horrible. Makes one realize why these poor souls blow up their own life. This is so much about them.


Yes, I think so too. I read somewhere its like a child that needs a timeout after an over stimulating day. Everything is cranked to eleven and they suddenly break. Of course in the case of the LBS we do not see what led to the break - all we see is the meltdown and it makes us question everything we thought we knew.

Originally Posted by D
Originally Posted by IronWill
Of course that doesn't excuse one's behavior, but it does help to explain somewhat that it is a real "thing" that is happening.

This is a real thing. Hard to accept that something like this could have happened.

Excuse is an interesting word and concept. I always looked more to what was the reason for something, rather than an excuse for it.

Yes, the MLCerís feelings and being driven isnít an excuse for their subsequent behaviour, however it does provide a reason for their behaviour.

Excuse, justifies and forgives, whatever one is excusing. I find that to be a little disingenuous. If something is justified than itís justified. If you forgive than forgive. Making excuses and then excusing doesnít (usually) actually forgive.

I want to propose something to you.

Quote
Of course that doesn't excuse forgive one's behavior...

This is one of the hang ups I see people having with forgiveness. The idea of excusing the behaviour.

These emotionally tormented people reach their breaking point and explode. Yes, that in of its self is not an excuse for their behaviour, nor do we forgive based upon that. Yet, we can forgive.

Separate the person from the behaviour. We forgive the person.

This has nothing to do with them earning it. They donít have to earn our forgiveness, for that is not forgiving. Although, for a time, that is the path one walks until they find that forgiving someone is actually more for them, than for the one being forgiven.

My XW probably has no idea that Iíve forgiven her. She doesnít speak to me. It is possible that our children have told her, although that is pretty unlikely.

The idea of one needing to earn forgiveness belongs to the realm of excusing. Look to reasons and forgiving, itís a better path.

Compassion, understand, and empathy.

One day, these difficult times will be a distant memory of a period of great reflection and personal growth. Continue walking the path.

You got this.

D


Wow. You have definitely given me something to think about for the day. Thank you for that...

I am currently in the process of working on forgiving W. I am not quite fully there yet but conversations like this are what I need and definitely help. A lot of what is written in newcomers is filled with anger and hurt. I'm more philosophically oriented smile

In talking about your xW, i think my W also has no idea I am working on forgiving her. She is very wrapped up in her small world right now. Thinking more about it - it is probably what's best for her at the moment.

There may be some small recognition that I am giving her the space she requested - otherwise why would she still be living at home? But that indicator could be faulty - it is merely speculation. Anyway I digress...

Given your xW's rushed and sudden departure, do you find yourself wondering if she will ever look back in reflection on what happened? I often wonder that about my WAW in passing. I don't spend too much time contemplating it these days as the time frame has extended further than I thought it would.

It seems as if my W was on the same track as yours - I think it was a 1 to 2 week period on my end between "normalcy" and BD1. Somehow she halted and I cannot help but occasionally wonder why.

I had some interesting discussions with IC many moons ago. IC seemed to suggest to me that people "just change". I think it may have been a challenge exercise, but at the time i had a hard time believing it. Now, im not so sure. I'm wondering your thoughts...

Have a great day, D smile
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/20/20 12:21 PM
Saw on another thread that you are under the weather DnJ - hope you are feeling better soon.
Posted By: Kindly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/21/20 11:48 AM
Good Morning Dnj,
Originally Posted by cardinal
Hi, D. These conversations between you and IronWill are insightful, as always. IW, when you mentioned your W saying at BD that she felt like she had lost her identity, I thought of my H saying at BD that he didnít know who he was at home anymore. I think he feels he has found a new identity with his new group of friends. From the outside, itís a superficial kind of ďfinding oneself,Ē but I suppose itís really not fair for me to judge. Heís trying to find a way of being that isnít painful. Iíve never had the feeling of losing my identity or not knowing who I am, so I can only imagine how uncomfortable that must be. Anyway, I always appreciate how thoughtful you both are.

IW and Cardinal,
I find this very interesting. At BD my H also said he didnít know who he was and that he had so much confusion in his head. I remember reading on here many times how awful MLC is for the person going through it. I remember at that moment thinking as much As Iím hurting and confused what heís dealing with is worse. And I decided to do my best to be as compassionate and kind as I could. Heís made that very trying at times but Dnj has written some very insightful stuff on my thread and to IW about forgiveness vs excusing behaviour.

Iím with you IW...as much as thereís Many moments of frustration, anger and hurt for us, I find that kind of energy exhausting and It doesnít serve me well.

IW - at BD my Hís mom told me ďheís just changed and doesnít want to be married anymoreĒ .... these words still haunt me almost a year later. I too am curious about ďpeople just changingĒ and others thoughts on that?

Hope youíre getting lots of R&R Dnj.
K,
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 02:29 AM
Hello

My Covid test results are negative.

Iíve no idea what I have.

Since last Sunday. Intestinal pain and bloating. Sick. Muscle aches. Cold/hot. Shiver/sweat. Have zero tolerance for heat. I barely taste sweet anymore. It seems bitter is now the predominant taste. All food and drink tastes stale, expired, spoiled. Itís super gross and hard to poke in enough food for caloric intake. For example, the last half of my breakfast Ďs second toast. I know it is not rancid, but it tastes like it. It takes a certain stubbornness. smile And my sense of smell is mess up as well. I smelled the coffee canister, oh I love(d) that smell, and I almost lost my stomachís contents all over the floor. That was such a horrendous reek.

Thatís some of the symptoms, there is quite a list. One strange occurrence - and I mean supper strange - my right eye is back to 40/20 vision of days of old. This is for distances only, the reading prescription is still correct. However, all my progressive glasses are wrong, and my office pair the monitor range prescription is made from distance and close up, so it is wrong as well.

My left eye, is still the same. And is passable with out glasses for distance. So Iíve been glasses free all week, except for reading, and close up.

I have (had ?) an astigmatism, which with out glasses caused ghost images, and points of star light were two or three points. I donít have that right now. Itís pretty cool seeing with such clarity again.

I also lost about seven pounds. Not the best diet, but since Tuesday I havenít decreased anymore.

Iíll catch up with your threads and reach out again. Iím just exhausted these last days.

D
Posted By: cardinal Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 03:22 AM
Dear D: Iím glad the results are negative, but those symptoms donít sound like much fun. Wow. Except maybe the improved eyesight. More rest and toast (or maybe liquids with some calories?). Sending you wishes for better days ahead very soon, when coffee smells like coffee again. Hang in there!
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 10:40 AM
ok, D I don't want to be a downer here, but what we're seeing is false negatives. your symptoms match up ... my brother's test was "inconclusive" yet his symptoms match yours (except for the eye thing - he hasn't mention vision changes), and his doctor said to forget the inconclusive results, he was sure my brother had this, and made him behave accordingly - quarantine, rest and watch for worsening symptoms. while I am certainly not a doctor - I don't even play one on television - I think you have it and I think you ought to act "as if" meaning quarantine and watch for worsening symptoms.


Posted By: Kindly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 01:33 PM
Dnj - I agree with bttrfly! But I too am no doctor....Sooo many false negatives. I pray this is not the case but Your symptoms sound very suspect, especially the sense of smell and taste. Please be careful and pay close attention to worsening symptoms. Can the kids support you from a distance with food etc....?
Take care Dnj....
Posted By: job Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 01:54 PM
I also agree w/bttrfly. You have a lot of the symptoms of COVID, i.e., especially the smell and taste issues. Quarantine, drink plenty of fluids and rest as much as possible.

I hope you feel better soon.
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 02:18 PM
Hi D -

Sorry to hear you're ill. For what its worth, one of my siblings had Covid months ago - his symptoms were more like a very bad pneumonia, two other friends had it - theirs were tiredness and flu-like but they told me magnitudes worse.

There also was a very Covid-like spread of a very bad and weird flu where i live back in February before any testing was being done. It was an awful experience - a lot of people had it. I had so many strange and bizarre symptoms but the overall notable ones were extreme exhaustion at doing the simplest tasks, indigestion, headaches and difficulty breathing in the morning. Oddly enough I had no fever, but then other friends were bed-stricken with a very high fever.

Again I'm no doctor - but I was told water intake is important and so is finding ways to naturally boost your immune system. Above all - rest.

Take care - hope you get well soon smile
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 02:45 PM
DnJ - I was reading the other day that there seems to be an uptick in cases in your part of the world so this isn't too much of a shock especially since you travel a lot from one region to another.

I prescribe a steady diet of pizza, pancakes and waffles as that is about all they can slide under the door.

Hope you are feeling better soon and that your loved ones are staying safe.
Posted By: scout12 Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 11:04 PM
So sorry to hear youíre not well. Thinking of you and hoping for a speedy recovery.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/22/20 11:16 PM
Sorry to hear you arenít feeling well DnJ. Sounds awful. I agree with others...donít count CV19 out. You have a lot of the symptoms and there are a lot of false negative test results, Iíve heard. Best to assume you have it and self-isolate, etc... (((HUGS)))
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 12:56 AM
Dnj - agree with everybody else, too many false negatives in these tests. So far as Iím concerned, if you gave loss of sense if taste or smell in 2020 you have Covid until proven otherwise. The rapid weight loss is common, it can present as GI symptoms, and even the weird improvement in vision are compatible with Covid - I follow a online group of long-haul Covid patients and several of them have reported some random chronic problem that actually resolved!

You should have a pulse oximeter at home to monitor your oxygen levels. Zinc, B12 and niacinamide may help. Vitamin D is super important. Lie in the sun a bit every day if you can. Take deep breaths. Sleep on your stomach if youíre getting short of breath at night. Quarantine from others - get your kids to deliver things to your doorstep and check on you through the glass. Drink some coffee if you like coffee and stay hydrated. Donít be too stubborn - if youíre feeling worse or your oxygen levels are dropping, go to the ER.
Posted By: wooba Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 02:24 AM
Thinking of you DnJ, I hope you feel better soon!
Posted By: PLC Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 02:38 AM
D-Take care of yourself. Feel better, PLC
Posted By: harvey Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 05:57 AM
I've had three friends/relatives who have had the corona and were symptomatic. For those that were symptomatic, extreme fatigue and loss of taste were the main similarities. A friend (in his late 40s) had a relatively mild case and felt better after a couple of days. My girlfriend (late 30s but high risk) had a mild fever (never got to 100), extreme fatigue, and loss of taste for four days, but felt better on day five. My cousin's husband (early 50s and overweight) had a moderate fever, extreme fatigue, loss of taste, and a horrendous cough. His symptoms lasted nine days. He was miserable.

I'm 50 years old and I've never had the flu in my life, so I wonder if I'm in the asymptomatic camp.

Hope you feel better soon!
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 03:25 PM
Oh my GOSH, DnJ!!!

What the heck else could it be but Covid19? A whole slew of crazy and very awful symptoms out of nowhere, including loss of taste?!

What does your doc say?!

Do you have any help or anyone checking on you?

The thing to be very wary of is the sudden change where you would need a hospital. I am worried about that because you are the one who is constantly checking on everyone else -- who checks on you?

Keep us posted = understatement of the year.

I will bring you some of our virtual coffee and naiimmmooooo bars as soon as you can pretend to taste them again. For now I am virtually fluffing your pillows, doing the laundry and taking the dogs out.
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by kml
I follow a online group of long-haul Covid patients and several of them have reported some random chronic problem that actually resolved!


That is fascinating, KML!! Is that published somewhere or it's like this place -- everyone who went through it as an LBS (at least those who found this place) knows MLC is real but it's not in the psych journals?
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/23/20 04:07 PM
No not published yet. Iím trying to remember now what kinds of things people reported - they were varied, long-standing issues from years before Covid that mysteriously resolved with Covid. My suspicion is it might be something they were taking for Covid or some kind of change in diet but it might just be that their ramped up immune system fixed something? Very very odd but so is much about this virus.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 01:28 AM
Hello All

I am feeling much better!

Itís been quite a week of strange symptoms which sprung forth seemingly from nowhere. And have now faded just as mysteriously.

The major ones, taste and smell, seemed to be back to normal. Unfortunately my eyesight followed suit. It was an incredible six days - the fantastic vision I remember, back and mine again. Of course I also had that whole everything tastes and smells horrific as well. smile My glasses are back upon my face, again, and have been all day. Itís ok, the price was too high anyhow.

Itís weird being on immunity suppressors during a pandemic of a novel virus. Not sure how any of that played into this.

I never had any respiratory problems, in fact my nose and breathing has been clearer and less runny than normal during this whole time.

I had intestinal problems, was cold, chilled, hot, violently shivered uncontrollably for 2 hours straight, threw up, had sore muscles, experiences some weird pains in odd places like lower left teeth, wrists, top left of skull, and so on. I had no tolerance for heat, and my taste of sweet was impaired leaving mostly bitter to rule the flavour. My sense of smell was also high jacked.

These two altered senses provided a skewed perception of reality. I ate, day after day, food that tasted expired and spoiled. I told myself it wasnít true. Still, you can only go so far. I didnít eat anymore than I had too, as I certainly wasnít enjoying it. No snacking watching a show, I mean whoís going to snack on rancid chips? Or vile sofa pop? Blaaaak. smile

I was plenty tired and these last few days were exhausting. After much rest, I awoke this morning feeling much better. My toast and cheese whiz only tasted salty and metallic, not all rancid. Hmmm. Things were definitely looking up.

By lunch I felt even better and confidently had clam chowder, which even the slightest of upset tummy would not handle well. It tasted good. Really good!

I walked my dogs for a bit. The heat did not drive me back indoors, as had happened this past week.

During this week I remained isolated and even had S18 pickup and drop off groceries for me. He even walked the dogs one day. I made arrangements with S21 (and my Mom) to pay my bills in case I ended up out of commission for an extended period of time.

Was this, is this, Covid? I donít know. It certainly didnít feel like any flu Iíve had before. Some parts of it were similar and some completely foreign. The only tangible artifact, my negative test result - whatever credence that is worth.

In my locale, in our COVID world, if one has symptoms, one isolates until one gets tested. If negative, remain isolated until symptom free for minimum 24 hours. If positive, remain isolated until negative test result. In both scenarios self isolation is ended only by the end of symptoms or the need for hospitalization.

This results in a rather large limbo grey area and time of no service and or information. I can now make an appointment and go to the doctorís office; rather akin to closing the barn after the horses have all escaped.

The only real concern I had during this time was my time violently shaking. I called the local hospital and spoke to the staff. Explained what was happening. I was shaking really really badly. It took minutes just to dial the phone. They told me I had Covid symptoms (which it seems everything falls under, wise enough not arguing just pointing out the holes within the process) and needed to get tested first. And if this is life threatening call 9-11. Thatís it.

Itís left to me, to us, to decided if our distress is life threatening or not. The choice is call out the ambulance or do nothing. There is no other avenue - until you are symptom free and well then whatís the point.

I believed my life was not in danger. But could not travel to city one hour away for testing, I barely made it to the kitchen to call the hospital. And there was no way I was exposing anyone to whatever had its claws into me. So with me unable to drive and me unwillingly to endanger someone I had to wait until the following day to make the 3 1/2 hour journey to get tested at the closest testing facility to me.

The health care staff are awesome by the way. Caring, compassionate, and competent. The test itself is very quick. The trip is an hour each way, and there was unsurprisingly a line up. There is a rather larger catchment area for these testing facilities.

Oh well. Allís well that ends well.

cardinal, bttrfly, Kindly, job, IW, Andrew, scout, DV, kml, wooba, PLC, harvey, and Gerda thank you for your words of encouragement and well wishing. I did pop in a few times and got quite a pick me up seeing how many caring people are in my corner. I felt bad not responding timely; I was so exhausted. I actually slept 15 hours one day. Ha. Me. Lol.

I do very much appreciate all the advice.

I may or may not be out of the woods at this point; itís only 12 hours so far. I do have Monday off work and plan on remaining isolated until Tuesday. Iíll see whatís in store for me I guess.

Thanks for walking with me.

D
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 02:04 AM
Great to hear you are feeling better DnJ. Keep taking good care of yourself. Get plenty of rest!! (((HUGS)))
Posted By: PLC Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 03:28 AM
So happy to see you posted! Whatever it was, letís ďdrop the ropeĒ and let it move on!

In all seriousness, with Covid and the myriad of symptoms, you very well could have had it. If so, it did not sound like a walk in the park (except for the great vision). My friend and her 21 yo son had it. His was about a week, no smell or taste and intestinal issues, where she never lost smell or taste, but had breathing issues and hers lasted over three weeks. They both tested positive with different issues.

I am glad you are feeling better, letís hope tomorrow is even more.

PLC
Posted By: cardinal Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 03:51 AM
Wonderful news that youíre starting to feel better, Dógood enough to eat clam chowder, even. You are brave!
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 05:17 AM
Yes you had it. If you need proof get an IgM and IgG antibody test in another week or two.( The antibodies drop off rapidly after two months). Donít go back to work so early - we really donít have that good a handle on how long people with GI symptoms may shed active virus.

Also, glad youíre feeling better and hope it sticks - but - the one about this virus is a weird roller coaster recovery. Theyíll feel great one day, like theyíve finally kicked it, then sick again the next. My first 3 patients went through 1-2 weeks of acute symptoms then three weeks of roller coaster recovery. Not everybody has this but it seems more common than not. Donít go back to work too early. Give your body the rest it needs to fully recover. String together a few days of feeling 100% before you go back to work.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 01:02 PM
Good Morning

Itís a sunny day. Clear blue skies. And started with a tasty breakfast; the good kind of tasty. smile

DV - I will ensure I rest for a few more days. I was considering cutting the grass today, but it can wait until next weekend.

PLC - I am feeling better than yesterday; happy to see the (hopefully) tail of end of this.

cardinal - Clam chowder. After a bit of the bowl I got to thinking this could be a really bad idea if my tummy decided to reject it. smile

kml - I donít need proof. Iíd like proof, so on those grounds I might inquire into antibody testing.

I would like to string a few good days in a row before returning to work. I was wondering about the recovery process. Thanks for sharing, I had figured recovery could be a rollercoaster as well, everything else was.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 03:48 PM
Good Morning IW

Yes, the MLCer needs (and takes) their emotional timeout.

Originally Posted by IronWill
I am currently in the process of working on forgiving W. I am not quite fully there yet but conversations like this are what I need and definitely help. A lot of what is written in newcomers is filled with anger and hurt. I'm more philosophically oriented. smile

The paths do tend to start filled with anger and hurt.

I am enjoying our conversations as well. And yes, things do tend to the philosophical on this board it seems. smile

Originally Posted by IronWill
In talking about your xW, i think my W also has no idea I am working on forgiving her. She is very wrapped up in her small world right now. Thinking more about it - it is probably what's best for her at the moment.

I had wanted to share, to tell XW, I had forgiving her.

Looking back I am glad I did not. That kind of unsolicited information would be seen as so much pressure and seen as so much pursuit. Besides, forgiveness isnít words.

Also manipulation. Had I told XW, it would have altered the situation. Now, perhaps nothing really changes, but she hasnít spoke to me for years. Iíd probably be wondering if my ďforgivenessĒ pressure caused some delay or derailment of her path.

Of course, we also wonder about this hands off approach ideology as well. The thing is, we donít have direct involvement. Thatís the key. Direct involvement means direct responsibility, and one doesnít want that. Our spouses did what they did, and they need to undo it. Thatís not said in a mean way. They really need to find their way to undo what they did. We do our part and while living our life see what happens.

Whatís best for her at the moment is a difficult thing to ascertain. I think you realize this too.

Originally Posted by IronWill
Given your xW's rushed and sudden departure, do you find yourself wondering if she will ever look back in reflection on what happened? I often wonder that about my WAW in passing. I don't spend too much time contemplating it these days as the time frame has extended further than I thought it would.

I have no doubt she will, and already is, reflecting upon what has happened. All MLCers do.

They all reflect, compare, what they gave up to what theyíve gained. And over time those gains slowly erode. The false value that was place upon such shortsighted glitter, fades all too quickly. And the value of those meaningless things thrown away, does return. The love of a family does not grow on trees, and is irreplaceable. Thatís a harsh reality to face, especially when you are the one that caused your own loss.

Justifications, projections, running, touch and goes, spewing, etc. Eventually these slow and all those moments of refection, start to influence further inner looking and more reflection. The MLCer needs to grow. Some do, some donít.

Originally Posted by IronWill
I had some interesting discussions with IC many moons ago. IC seemed to suggest to me that people "just change". I think it may have been a challenge exercise, but at the time i had a hard time believing it. Now, im not so sure. I'm wondering your thoughts...

Absolutely people change. You are different than you were when you were twenty. Hence change.

The words, ďjust changeĒ implies a somewhat speedy and unknown impetus behind the change. That seems to be the view for many folks who have never had experience with or even could imagine such a thing as MLC. I was counted among those before as well. To me, MLC was only that Hollywood version of new car, new girl friend, not the dark silent demon it is.

From our view our spouseís change ďjustĒ happens. It is fast and sudden. Meanwhile behind the scenes it isnít. Perception and reality, such a tangled skein.

Without doubt our spouses change. Iíve personally seen far more than Iíd ever thought possible from my ex-bride and mother/mom of my children.

I had many well meaning people suggest similar ďpeople just changeĒ to me as well. Itís how they saw it, and they wanted a speedy recovery and healing for me. Those that have seen behind the curtain suggest differently Iíve found. As Iíve said, itís the word ďjustĒ, and the meaning attached.

To focus on ďchangeĒ. Yes people change. I believe that. This also allows for people to change again, to change back or better, if you will.

Interestingly there is discussions on other threads regarding change and if oneís spouse changed or was always this person and just hiding/fighting their true selves and/or nature.

Ah, perceptions and reality. I believe these people in crisis do emotionally regress back to their younger selves. They change, weíve all seen it. The question is if this is a change or finally dropping the act or something else.

I think our spouses werenít acting. They were those people. Life, love, us, family, changed them for the better. Just like we did with them over the many years. We both grew into different people; adults, Mothers/Fathers. Then, their past comes calling and drags them back to the very person they were. That poor soul who had no idea of the trauma they were carrying around.

As unbelievable as it is, itís emotional time travel more than change. They are reliving their youth. My XW has three different versions of herself inside. It seems like she changes from my perception, and yes she does. But, it matters how one defines change.

We all have many different versions of ourselves within us. With a little thought, Iím sure one can conjure up feelings of their past happy childhood. Times of strife dealing with our parents. Our first love. Our first fight with our best friend. Our awkward first kiss. Our time learning to drive. And so on.

Did you change while recalling these? Or did you relive those moments? Change, growth, perception, reality.

Our MLCers are reliving moments, quite uncontrollably and unintentionally. There is something they need to find, then face, and grow up from. That growth would be change and is rather slow.

For the majority of the time for the MLCer it is not change, nor dropping the act, it is something else - reliving their youth. They become someone else, a different angrier younger version of themselves. And that young person lacks empathy, isnít married, doesnít have kids, and so on. It certainly seems like a change, and I suspect you, IW, know different. Youíve seen behind the curtain.

My thoughts on the subject, for what they are worth.

D
Posted By: Sage4 Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 07:01 PM
DnJ, I am so happy you are feeling better, but I agree with all the others, take care of yourself!

I love your conversations with IW and your post above is so poignant and hit me on so many levels.

Will on a backpacking trip with my littles last week, I was struck with a thought that hasn't been able to leave me. Listening to the kids complain about the weight of their pack (and/or proclaim loudly how strong they were to carry so much gear!), it made me think of my MLC H, which might also be relevant to all our MLC spouses.

When he was a child, H was given a metaphorical backpack. Which was filled with trauma and emotions and just general life stuff. In a healthy childhood, the child will look to the parents to help them sort out what needs to be carried and what can be unpacked. Healthy parents will insure that the pack is never too heavy for the child to carry, but will also not completely empty the pack, as learning to sort your own pack is also a part of development.

In the absence of a healthy parent-child relationship, the pack becomes overly heavy for the child. They may cope in several different ways: take off the pack (check out, run away), try to sort it out on their own (maybe successfully, maybe with the support of other adult role models), or just accept that a heavy pack is their burden to bare and just keep accepting that their pack is going to get heavier and heavier.

In my H's case, I think he dealt with trauma by stuffing it down. By the time we met, his pack was pretty darn heavy, but he put a cap on all of it and believed that he could start afresh. He had been carrying that weight for so long it felt normal to have it on his back. He didn't really notice anymore.

Which worked for a long while. But remember that the weight of the pack is not only trauma and emotions, but also includes just general life stuff. Things like work, young family stress, navigating changing relationships and the passing of time.

Lacking the skills to unpack his own pack, the weight of those things just accumulated. And then a breakdown or a traumatic experience sprung a leak in the childhood weight that had been capped so many years ago. All of a sudden, all those heavy things in his pack were no longer compartmentalized, but all contaminated and mixed together. Something that I did or said (or didn't do or say) was one of the last things to be added to that pack. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Not longer able to carry the weight, H examined the contents and there at the very top was the weight that I had unknowingly added. And because everything was no longer compartmentalized, his childhood weight was contaminated with more recent weight. Now it looked to him like all that weight he had been carrying all along was the burden I had placed on him.

Aha! It now made sense to H: he had taken off the pack and felt so much lighter! And I was the source of all that weight, so getting away from me was going to insure I didn't add any more weight. And just think of everything H could do now that he was no longer carrying that pack!

However, unbeknownst to the MLCer who has just taken off their pack, carrying a backpack is not optional. We all carry one. You can't go far without your pack on your back, the place where you store everything to be sorted out at a later time. Which perhaps is why we see such escapism in MLC behaviors; they are avoiding putting that pack back on at all costs.

And also explains why the MLCer can't rejoin the rest of us until they sort through their heavy pack. They are right in that the burden is too much to carry, and it's true that they can no longer walk under the weight. Who could?

They have never been taught how to sort through their backpacks, which takes years of childhood to learn. Which is why it can take years of going through MLC to process the contents of their backpack and then additional years to learn how to sort it effectively in the future.

I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread for my rumination.

xx
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 08:06 PM
Hello Sage

What an excellent way to say that. It truly bring forth the visual of our very real backpacks we all must carry.

You have wonderful insights and instincts that serve you well. And I love stories of inspiration. Like that of yourís during backpacking with your kids. Struck by a thought that hasnít been able to leave your mind. Those are very good seeds of beliefs. Nurture it. Believe it.

Originally Posted by Sage4
...my prayer to the universe right now: if this hardship and heartbreak must happen to me, please open me up to all the lessons I have to learn and make me a better person as a result. Let something good come of all of this. Amen.

Sage, I would say, the universe has listened.

Continue walking the path and be patient. An answer has been presented. I believe, the first of many to come.

Thank you for sharing it with me, and all of us.

D
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/24/20 11:27 PM
Wow Sage. That was incredible to read. Not to hijack but if you don't mind I would like to quote that on my thread if its ok with you. If not I understand smile


Hello D - I am glad you are feeling a little better. Remember to rest more than usual with this thing. Let your immune system have a good chance at fighting it if you can. smile

Originally Posted by D

I had wanted to share, to tell XW, I had forgiving her.

Looking back I am glad I did not. That kind of unsolicited information would be seen as so much pressure and seen as so much pursuit. Besides, forgiveness isnít words.

Also manipulation. Had I told XW, it would have altered the situation. Now, perhaps nothing really changes, but she hasnít spoke to me for years. Iíd probably be wondering if my ďforgivenessĒ pressure caused some delay or derailment of her path.

Of course, we also wonder about this hands off approach ideology as well. The thing is, we donít have direct involvement. Thatís the key. Direct involvement means direct responsibility, and one doesnít want that. Our spouses did what they did, and they need to undo it. Thatís not said in a mean way. They really need to find their way to undo what they did. We do our part and while living our life see what happens.

You are very right.

I'm sorry that things went the way they did in your situation. You are a very strong individual and I hope you give yourself some credit for the way you handled things. More people should read your situation and realize how to deal with their MLCers with compassion and empathy.

I had been looking for a thread like yours for awhile. I think it would do a lot of DBers some good to read it. smile

Originally Posted by D

I have no doubt she will, and already is, reflecting upon what has happened. All MLCers do.

They all reflect, compare, what they gave up to what theyíve gained. And over time those gains slowly erode. The false value that was place upon such shortsighted glitter, fades all too quickly. And the value of those meaningless things thrown away, does return. The love of a family does not grow on trees, and is irreplaceable. Thatís a harsh reality to face, especially when you are the one that caused your own loss.

Justifications, projections, running, touch and goes, spewing, etc. Eventually these slow and all those moments of refection, start to influence further inner looking and more reflection. The MLCer needs to grow. Some do, some donít.


Yes it is remarkable the lengths an MLCer will go to in order to alleviate their pain. I think it is crucial for the LBS to understand that this is about the WAS - the pain and trauma from their past being manifested in this form. It is very challenging to see through the LBS fog and pain and hurt.

One of the first things I read here at DB that had the biggest impact was this: "slow down". So many LBS are running full steam toward D. While limbo is not the best, one can use that time to take a breath and figure things out.

Originally Posted by D


I had many well meaning people suggest similar ďpeople just changeĒ to me as well. Itís how they saw it, and they wanted a speedy recovery and healing for me. Those that have seen behind the curtain suggest differently Iíve found. As Iíve said, itís the word ďjustĒ, and the meaning attached.

To focus on ďchangeĒ. Yes people change. I believe that. This also allows for people to change again, to change back or better, if you will.

Interestingly there is discussions on other threads regarding change and if oneís spouse changed or was always this person and just hiding/fighting their true selves and/or nature.

Ah, perceptions and reality. I believe these people in crisis do emotionally regress back to their younger selves. They change, weíve all seen it. The question is if this is a change or finally dropping the act or something else.

I think our spouses werenít acting. They were those people. Life, love, us, family, changed them for the better. Just like we did with them over the many years. We both grew into different people; adults, Mothers/Fathers. Then, their past comes calling and drags them back to the very person they were. That poor soul who had no idea of the trauma they were carrying around.

As unbelievable as it is, itís emotional time travel more than change. They are reliving their youth. My XW has three different versions of herself inside. It seems like she changes from my perception, and yes she does. But, it matters how one defines change.

We all have many different versions of ourselves within us. With a little thought, Iím sure one can conjure up feelings of their past happy childhood. Times of strife dealing with our parents. Our first love. Our first fight with our best friend. Our awkward first kiss. Our time learning to drive. And so on.

Did you change while recalling these? Or did you relive those moments? Change, growth, perception, reality.

Our MLCers are reliving moments, quite uncontrollably and unintentionally. There is something they need to find, then face, and grow up from. That growth would be change and is rather slow.

For the majority of the time for the MLCer it is not change, nor dropping the act, it is something else - reliving their youth. They become someone else, a different angrier younger version of themselves. And that young person lacks empathy, isnít married, doesnít have kids, and so on. It certainly seems like a change, and I suspect you, IW, know different. Youíve seen behind the curtain.

My thoughts on the subject, for what they are worth.

D

Lots to think about here. I do agree that we all change - it happens every moment of our lives, indeed they are defined by change, many changes so minute we do not see them take place.

I guess I was a little hesitant to believe that someone could "just change" at their core, so quickly and suddenly, from who they appeared to be before.

I had done some research on the subject of consciousness and "being" years ago, and also the faces and identities we present to differing people and social groups. It was pretty fascinating stuff, i wish i could remember which journals i had quoted in the research but alas memory fails me as i approach half a century in age.

What i do remember is the study that showed that a person could successfully hide who they are for a period of up to 12 months, up to a maximum of 18 months- before their true colors began to seep through.

Yes, youre right ive seen behind the curtain. I have seen someone who has become so unsure of who they are, someone lacking identity, someone who thought i was 100 percent to blame and now is not so sure, someone who said it had been first 2 years then 12 years then 23 years of covering up who they were. Someone who has gone from the most logical person in the world to someone who is extraordinarily confused at one moment and pulls away the next, then speaks as if things were the normal from before BD in the next breath. Someone who was so angry and beeline out the door to someone who suddenly halted and paused everything.

My conclusions so far are that MLC (or WAS or whatever term one is comfortable with) is a real thing. The only thing that has worked is doing what MWD recommends.

What an experience.

I do also enjoy these discussions, D. They are helping me very much

Thank you. Here's to a quick recovery for you smile
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/25/20 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by DnJ


Ah, perceptions and reality. I believe these people in crisis do emotionally regress back to their younger selves. They change, weíve all seen it. The question is if this is a change or finally dropping the act or something else.

I think our spouses werenít acting. They were those people. Life, love, us, family, changed them for the better. Just like we did with them over the many years. We both grew into different people; adults, Mothers/Fathers. Then, their past comes calling and drags them back to the very person they were. That poor soul who had no idea of the trauma they were carrying around.

As unbelievable as it is, itís emotional time travel more than change. They are reliving their youth. My XW has three different versions of herself inside. It seems like she changes from my perception, and yes she does. But, it matters how one defines change.

We all have many different versions of ourselves within us. With a little thought, Iím sure one can conjure up feelings of their past happy childhood. Times of strife dealing with our parents. Our first love. Our first fight with our best friend. Our awkward first kiss. Our time learning to drive. And so on.

...

For the majority of the time for the MLCer it is not change, nor dropping the act, it is something else - reliving their youth. They become someone else, a different angrier younger version of themselves. And that young person lacks empathy, isnít married, doesnít have kids, and so on.

D


I was thinking a lot about this, as you know; my thread is one of those where this topic is discussed, and sometimes I shudder to think of a newbie stumbling on my first thread, 2014, and seeing how it all played out. I don't want that newbie to lose hope based on my story.

But I was thinking of it also especially because I am preparing my nine millionth round of court papers and I came across a note my H wrote me once, well after BD, when he was about to cross fully over. I have been thinking lately that he was all bad always and the 20 years were the act, him trying to be someone he wasn't. But this note was like a door into whatever part of him was good. I think what you say above is a perfect way to think of it and I thank you for saying it!

I will paste the note below but I wanted to give you a song gift today. Taylor Swift's two new songs -- Exile with Bon Iver and Seven. And then Coldplay, "Us Against the World." The live version is particularly wonderful.

Here is the note. I know I posted it before on one of my long-ago threads. It is a good proof of your point. This was one of those momentary awakenings. I wrote something back and by then he was already gone, his response was back to the teen sans empathy and about what he owed the OW and a little while after that, how he had tried being a saint and he was done with that, it destroyed him and he was looking out for himself now.

>I feel certain that I irreparably hurt the whole wide world last night,and many many many other nights, and I know I mostly hurt you, but also I hurt the kids, God, myself -- many many nights. This strange self-alienating trans-home, trans-self, trans-father, trans-husband, trans-friend multi-year void-abyss, this icy-cold winter is deeply
cutting and wounding me and bleeding me of all life, all charity, all innocence and love. I have to believe there's a Spring beyond it. I can't see it now. I cannot see it now. I only know I have to change, that something has to change, and that I feel in this time so unworthy of a man's life and of a life-time, but not indulgently so, just honestly so -
for a change. And I feel deeply sorry that I've sinned, mainly through lack of purity and charity, against you, against God, against many many others, most especially my kids. I only always pray for a new season, for an everlasting Spring, and I pray to learn what that time might look like, and how to make it a reality for me and for everyone, everyone, involved.



Posted By: Sage4 Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/25/20 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by IronWill
Wow Sage. That was incredible to read. Not to hijack but if you don't mind I would like to quote that on my thread if its ok with you.


Please do, IW! We are all here to learn and share. I am so grateful for the deep, philosophical conversation you and DnJ are in right now.
Posted By: wooba Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/25/20 07:40 AM
Gerda, thank you for sharing that letter with us. I often think of my H in this way too - I know that part of him is in there somewhere. I'm not holding my breath for that part to resurface, but knowing it makes it a little easier for me to dig up compassion.

Sage - that was an excellent way to put it all in perspective! I almost missed it. Thank you for posting it.

Lastly, DnJ, I'm glad to hear that you are feeling better.
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/25/20 03:52 PM
Hope you had another good day. Be aware that some people with GI symptoms have developed food allergies or sensitivities after (likely secondary to compromise of the gut lining integrity - not unknown, for instance a Giardia infection can trigger celiac disease in some susceptible people). You might want to go easy on the gluten and dairy for a little while and just be aware if you get strange reactions.
Posted By: Kindly Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/26/20 04:14 AM
Dnj, so glad youíre on the mend.
What a great few pages of content. Thanks everyone for the insights and inspirations.
K,
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/26/20 11:51 PM
Hello

Iíve been back to work two days now and feeling fine.

IW, Iím glad to see your belief in MLC or WAS. Itís one of the big hurdles for the LBS, accepting this as real. Accepting what they see right before their eyes. It is pretty unbelievable, at first.

You are very right with the ďslow downĒ. This is one path you donít want to rush. As you said, limboís not that bad.

I think itís interesting that W has halted and put a pause on things. Keep doing what youíre doing. smile


Gerda, what a letter. Wow. He felt and saw himself slipping away into the abyss. Unable to alter course. Spoke of regret and remorse, and yet still couldnít find the way back.

I am happy my words had such meaning to you.


Hello wooba, yes I am feeling much better. Thank you. I returned to work after missing five days and had 397 emails to deal with. smile


kml, thank you for the caution and the information. I will watch for strange symptoms and take it easy on the gluten and dairy for a bit.


Kindly, yes this has been quite an interesting conversation. Thanks to all.


D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 08/31/20 11:44 AM
Good Morning

The days are growing shorter. The sun rising later and setting earlier, changing the look and feel of the day. I sit here at my table, pondering my upcoming day, looking out into the dusky yard. Weeks ago, the sun was blazing bright at this time and all was aglow.

The black silhouetted tress stand against the dark purple sky. Each minute the world brightens more and more as the sun climbs up and over the horizon. Itís a beautiful ride to work.

S19 is visiting. He came out on Saturday and is spending the week here. University starts on the 9th and he is planning on being here until then. There is a plan in the making to have all my kids out this coming weekend before university starts up.

Going to see about taking off the last of this week while S19 is here.

All is good here. I am well, and the kids are well.

Have a wonderful day.

D
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/01/20 01:10 PM
Glad you are feeling better D.

The seasons are indeed changing. Last night I heard the Canada Geese singing their song as they were flying overhead. It brought back in sharp recollection that first autumn after my now ex walked out. I had been sitting on my bench outside the front door when I heard the geese and had the realization that a season had passed me by. The deep sadness on what was lost can still be felt if I look for it.

Gets me to thinking and remembering. For a long time after I was abandoned, I just existed. I had a good life but it was just a matter of wearing a groove in the same pattern every day. It was reliable, consistent and comfortable. I was pretty happy.

I can see a bit of the same pattern in your life. You are active with your family and would be in your community if times were different. It IS indeed a good life.

Have you considered though that you have been handed a grand opportunity to grow? You really have no serious responsibilities. No-one you are accountable to except yourself and God. My trip to Spain was a big thing for me - following a whisper of a dream I had. I'm not suggesting you do something similar and given the state of the world, spending 6 months on a Mission somewhere for example is undoubtedly not in the cards.

Wearing a groove can be comfortable. You know where you are, where you should be. But it also an artificial limit you are putting on yourself.

Have you found a dream? Do you dare to dream?
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/01/20 01:59 PM
Taking the rest of the week off sounds like a great plan to me D! So happy to hear you are feeling better. I hope you continue to improve.

Summer is rapidly coming to a close on the west coast as well. Weíve had some pretty hot days but things are starting to cool off and the days are shorter. Canít believe how fast summer has come and gone. Not the summer I am used to but still...some pretty nice memories were made and some new friendships formed. There is always something to be grateful for.

Iím with Andrew on this one. I think D should think about shaking things up a bit once this pandemic has mostly passed us by. The book/movie Eat, Pray, Love comes to mind...lol. I would love to read about your own version of that...lol. After Croatia, I think the next country on my bucket list is Turkey. I want to do a hot air balloon ride over Capadoccia. Google it. Looks amazing!!! Whatís on your bucket list D?? Iíd love to know. laugh
Posted By: IronWill Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/01/20 07:48 PM
Hi D -

I also live in a part of the world where the days are rapidly growing shorter. I find this time of year is usually when I begin to reflect - getting ready for the cold harsh winter ahead.

With the pandemic firmly in place, it takes some extra creativity and strength not to think too much beyond the present. With short days and shutdowns, I think its important not to attempt to see too far into the future. For myself - focusing on the here and now seems like a good plan. I agree with the others, its always good to have goals and dreams. However at least in my view i choose not to "live" there right now - especially when there is a lot of global uncertainty these days.

For the moment there is a lot to do before winter arrives - plenty to keep occupied.

Thats my take anyway.

One more thing I did want to add - following our discussion of your xw's past a few pages back i had a similar experience in my youth with my parents. I wanted to say that it was perfectly normal for your Xw to want to run away from her childhood. I wanted to run away too - as soon as I could. Growing up in an environment like that is incredibly traumatic. I had no choice but to stifle it and stuff it down for 18 years. I am only processing it now - so I can somewhat relate to what you disclosed. It sounds like your xw's experience was even more traumatic than mine.

The thing is - when you're in that situation, you don't realize it. It is your normal. You cope the best you can, but you do not know any different. You think that is everyone else's normal too.

It is only later - when you exit the traumatic environment - when you begin to see just how much damage has been done.

-

Take care D - apologies for not writing back sooner, the security settings on my computer wouldn't allow me to visit the site for several days. I am glad it is cleared up now.

Stay strong smile
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/03/20 07:16 PM
Hello Andrew, DV, IW

Yes, there is a definite change of season in the air. The honks of the of the few lead Canada geese that herald the return of the tens of thousands just behind them, have not yet been heard. Those lone honks, and the cacophony of the full geese orchestra, is coming, like everything, in time.

People do seem to be tied to the seasons. The cold harsh approaching winter provides much time to cozy up inside and reflect. To plan and dream the next trip around the sun.

Dreams are like hope, they live within the possibilities.

Have I found a dream? Do I dare to dream? What is written upon my bucket list?

These are excellent questions and I have given myself time to consider myself and my views.

I do have a wonderful life. I have peace and forgiveness. These are no mere trifles or just words; these are tenets of my life. Things I am not just willing to die for - things I am willing to live for.

When I consider, what do I want to do before I kick the bucket, there is nothing firmly written with an urgent need or want. I live fulfilled.

Interestingly, these queries into who is DnJ, have come during a time of weirdly related news. My aunt, four days ago, on Monday, was diagnosed with a rare fast acting leukaemia. She has about four weeks left in her sands of time. What do I suppose she is thinking about? What regrets? What triumphs? What accomplishments? What left undone? Her time suddenly became exceedingly precious.

What would I consider when faced with a looming end?

Bucket list. Are there things I regret?

I am fulfilled. Sure I have things I would like to do, experiences I would like to have. Yet, nothing that causes me distress of lost time.

My dreams are great big, and forever in motion. To become who I am meant to be. To be the best man I can, will, be. Until my last breath, I can grow and become.

To that end, Iíve left little unsaid to those I love. All know my feelings and love for them. I find this is the area of most regret for people; fearfully never telling those how much they mean.

I dream, and desire, to be a great son, Dad and Grandpa. To visit my parents, children, grandchildren, and even great grandchildren often. And for them to want to visit me.

To live a respected life. One of honour. One of convictions, values, and beliefs. One of peace and forgiveness.

I see my desires and am purposefully working towards them. I suppose this is why I consider them less dreams, for they are plans being implemented.

I do plan (dream) to retire at age 55; 27 short months from now. Perhaps 28, if I work until year end.

At that point my time will become my own. My three spare hours a day, will greatly increase. I have projects and plans that certainly would get a boost. I have desires to travel, and moderate means to do so.

I am accountable to myself and God. And I have much freedom. Am I placing an artificial limitation upon myself? Perhaps.

Letís bring up the elephant in the room. Standing. Vows. Reconciliation.

Yes, I do desire and dream of XW awakening. Yes, I do still love her. And yes, I donít particularly like her.

I did consider altering my beliefs of vows, and the adherence to them. I have flirted with the idea of letting go that. It was so very wrong for me. I keep my word, I am better off being single.

This view may change, in time. My current season is what it is. Getting out of this particular groove has some very deep connotations to me. Oneís that are a struggle given who I am. I would have to change; I am not sure I want too. No, actually, right now, I donít want too.

I am standing for who I am. Thatís probably as good as any dream to live.

During these few days of considering, this phrase, this advice, played within my head.

Live your life, like your spouse isnít coming back.

It is not - Live your life, like your spouse isnít coming back, and you donít want your spouse back.

I am not pinning for XWís return. I am living forward, with relationships/dating in limbo. It is ok, for me.

Imagine our life like a glass jar. We decide the things to place within that life, that jar. Rocks, the big important thing like family and good friends. Our values. Things we would miss and regret if left out. There are smaller gravel-sized rocks, still important like job, house, food, heat, and so on. And there is all the other stuff, the sand of our lives. The fun times, the new TV, car, the wants. If one fills their jar with sand the rocks cannot fit.

Put the big rocks in first. Fill it completely full. Then pour in the smaller gravel, they filter within the spaces between. Then finally, the sand. It will fill in the remaining spaces. A full life, a full jar.

To add, as full as that jar is, pour in a cup of coffee. It fits. No matter how busy and full our lives are, there is always room for a cup of coffee between friends.

My dreams are those big rocks in life. At bomb drop my life and jar shattered. Iíve rebuilt, reorganized, examined, prioritized, and fit the pieces I want, back within my life.

I am entering a life transition, retirement and entering those golden years. Looking back over my life, I am proud of my accomplishments and lifeís work so far, both personally and professionally. And have somewhat plateaued.

Perhaps a bit of a shake up may indeed be good for me. Growth happens outside oneís comfort zone after all.

D
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/03/20 08:09 PM
DNJ = OFM. One fine man.

(Remember how sad I was when you were going to date last year? I didn't even capture it in my post, I was depressed.)

(Not that I don't think you should ever date. You have every right to and I understand now why you might/can/should. I have considered it myself, when my kids are much older. But I love that you don't want to, it's part and parcel of what I admire in you.)

Also how are you retiring at age 52? That is not rhetorical. I want to know how you did that.

Not to compare (no, I would never do that!) but my H can't even pay his own rent, has no savings and tons of debt and destroyed his family to get the money out of his house.

I have been very strategic lately and pretended I was willing to consider paying his legal bills in a settlement so I could get a copy of them. Have been trying for 18 months to get access to it. I wasn't able to get everything from the beginning as his L figured it out I think, but before that he sent me bills for the past year totally SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS. And that's just the part that is unpaid. 20K since May, and we haven't even been to court, just one phone conference. So I am assuming he has spent at least 150K on this so far. The bill included things like $1500 to review wife's bank statement. Three times.

I had a glimmer of what you are feeling about standing because I felt sorry for him. He is really getting sucked dry by his evil lawyer. He is directing the sucking but I still felt bad. The old H would never have done that. We used to make fun of those kinds of lawyers, salespeople, etc., who do that by saying of them, "I am going to stick my finger up your arse and pretend neither of us notice." Now he has not just a finger but an entire lawyer up there! I almost wanted to warn him. But he is still trying to get 80% of equity (based on his delusional value of house and refusal to accept appraisal) and 0% of debts (based on no actual logic) and have me cover his lawyer fees so there is just no way to even try to make him think he can get something he wants, it's so far into delusion. I was supposed to have court today and spent ages preparing and trying to calm my anxiety (and even managed it, a little) but then it got adjourned because I insisted on having a court reporter there. They never have one and EVERY TIME what we agreed and said gets stomped on and forgotten by his L. Plus I am planning to appeal if the judge doesn't enforce her previous order and end this nightmare, so I need a record.

Whoa, that was a highjack, what just happened?!

It was your imminent retirement and intense goodness, honor, joy, etc., that started it. So let's finish there with a ((((DnJ))))

P.S. I am adding to your bucket list that you teach electric skills in a prison. I have been teaching in prisons as you know and I think you would be AMAZING at it and change the world. I know I am not allowed to add to your bucket list but I give you permission to add something to mine.
Posted By: bttrfly Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/03/20 11:36 PM
i think when you're ready to change, you will.

I needed the absolute brutal experiences of the past 6 weeks to propel - intentional choice of word - me forward. I just celebrated a birthday. This is a new year, a new cycle, for me. I am unwilling to give one more second to someone so unworthy. Again, my sitch and my feelings about it. It is different for each of us.

I am absolutely ready to experience my next adventure, without toxicity in my space or my life from friends, family, romantic partners.

Again, I'm a little ahead of you on this journey and I've had a particular sitch come to a head here which I'm using to my present and future benefit. In my personal opinion, there is nothing for me to stand for. I know what kind of a wife I was. I know the truth. What the other side says to justify their BS is on them, and none of my concern. You know, I haven't even looked her up. I don't care what OW looks like, or anything about her, them or their life together. I know as much as I need to - he was a liar, a cheater and he continues to lie to her as well. Good luck, good riddance. It's now my time. I feel free and great about my decision.

You're right where you are supposed to be. Enjoy!
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/04/20 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by DnJ
I do plan (dream) to retire at age 55; 27 short months from now. Perhaps 28, if I work until year end.

At that point my time will become my own. My three spare hours a day, will greatly increase. I have projects and plans that certainly would get a boost. I have desires to travel, and moderate means to do so.

I am accountable to myself and God. And I have much freedom. Am I placing an artificial limitation upon myself? Perhaps.
Lucky guy. I fully expect you will be one of those many invaluable retired people who are the backbone of most volunteer organizations. You'll probably be more busy in retirement than now.

Originally Posted by DnJ
This view may change, in time. My current season is what it is. Getting out of this particular groove has some very deep connotations to me. Oneís that are a struggle given who I am. I would have to change; I am not sure I want too. No, actually, right now, I donít want too.
Then that's a wise choice for you. It's a choice you are making not out of fear but out of an active desire to not take those steps.
Posted By: job Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/04/20 01:17 PM
Twenty-seven months will go quickly, if you opt to retire at 55. You will enjoy retirement! You may discover that you are busier than what you are now...but those tasks will be on your timeline. There is truly life after retirement!

I think you will be one of those men who not only volunteers are the various organizations, but you will be a traveler as well. I look forward to reading about all of adventures now and in the future. Life has a way of opening new chapters as we close out each chapter of our lives.
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/04/20 02:01 PM
If you plan to retire in two years, time to start ramping up your social circle now. I donít necessarily mean dating, but friends, group activities etc. Successful retiring needs to be retiring TO something, not just retiring FROM.

And consider what kind of side hustle or new career you might want in retirement. A small additional income can provide ďfun moneyĒ for that bucket list.

My mom was a good example. She retired from her job as a CPA in her 60ís with a very modest savings account and modest social security check. (She had been widowed with four young children and no life insurance, became a CPA late in life, encountered age and sex discrimination in her work so thatís why she didnít have more).

To occupy some of her time in retirement she volunteered at the local library, which for a lifelong reader like her was a joy. After a couple years they insisted she apply for a part time job as a library aide, and eventually became assistant librarian. She work 2 1/2 days a week, got joy, socialization and satisfaction from her job, and the extra money paid for trips to London, Rome , Paris, Ireland and Scotland, Canada, and the East Coast with her daughters. Places my mom, as a poor tenant farmers daughter born in the depression, never thought sheíd live to see.

She loved that job and worked until she was 85. The additional financial security was just a bonus.

Not saying everyone can or should work in retirement. But if you can get paid a bit for doing something you love.....
Maybe youíll pick up some extra cash playing in a band?
Posted By: Kindly Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/05/20 08:19 PM
Hi Dnj,
Originally Posted by DnJ
My dreams are those big rocks in life. At bomb drop my life and jar shattered. Iíve rebuilt, reorganized, examined, prioritized, and fit the pieces I want, back within my life.

I like this. My jar is still shattered but I like the imagery here and the game plan. Simple. Something to work towards.

I too look forward to reading about your retirement adventures once that time comes. I think youíll write a book, or a screenplay!!!!! But whatever you do itíll be your dreams turned to reality!

ďYou have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself
Any direction you choose.
Youíre on your own
And you know what you know.
And YOU are the one
Whoíll decide where you go...Ē

~ Dr. Seuss, Oh the places you will go!
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/06/20 03:20 PM
Good Morning

My week off is coming to a close. S19 will be returning home today; he needs to finish a summary report to the university for his co-op work experience.

It has been a good and fun filled week. S19 came out with a desire to create a chessboard. With a bit of guidance, some mahogany, stain, and a few times a helping hand, he completed it. The board looks great. The grain of the black and white squares are oriented ninety degrees from each other. The board itself is 3/4Ē mahogany with veneer trim. The top is 64 one and half inch squares with a 3/4Ē bezel trim all 1/4Ē thick. Everything is flush and finished looking. Two coats of clear coat, a good polishing with steel wool, and voila a smooth as glass, eye popping chess board.

S19 invested quite a few hours into this and he is pleased.

I invited all the kids over for a Friday night supper; it was the only night D18 wasnít working. S21 and GF already had plans to visit her parents. The rest were available. So another French Fry Friday for S23 and GF, D18 and BF, S19, and me.

A long with the fries, I deep fried chicken thighs (cut into 3/4Ē cubes). My crew devoured 12 thighs, 12 hotdogs, and about 5 pounds of fries. What a meal! Oh, and of course, a pot of gray. Yummy.

Everyone stayed the night and all, except S19, left the next day. D18 had work and S23 and GF were visiting her family.

During the week S19 and I made a trip out to see S23ís new place. He sublet his apartment and moved into a rental house in a smaller town just outside of the city. He and GF are really pleased with the placed. The house has three bedrooms, full bath, and laundry on the second floor; a nice big kitchen, half bath, and living area on the first floor; and a basement which is turned into exercise room and gaming/movie theatre area. There is an attached garage and they also rented an extra space for their vehicles. S23 now has his Camaro in the garage, the driveway and extra space for their two vehicles. He also took his bicycle back with him, as he is now in a community where it might actually get some use.

XW reached out again. She called and texted S19 almost everyday he was here. S19 does not respond. He and I spoke about Momís calls and her calling. He isnít angry, itís just that Mom is a stranger, and there is nothing to speak about. Her texts and calls are her just asking for him to call her. She wants to hear his voice.

She sometimes asks - can we talk. As S19 and I discussed, it is text (or sometimes a voice message) she can talk ďfirstĒ in the message and await a reply. However, Mom doesnít share and her attempts at contact have other intent.

Case in point. On Tuesday, D18 texted me and asked if I could help her pick out an office chair. I replied sure, S19 and I would come over after her shift and go shopping and then out for dinner. We picked her up and went shopping. Found a chair she liked and also purchased a wireless printer for her and S19.

When dropping the stuff back at the apartment D18 showed me her new and surprise desk. On Monday, Mom had found a used desk on swap and shop; and either purchased it up front or sort of talked D18 into needing it. Anyhow, Monday night, around 8:00pm Mom calls D18 and tells her she has picked up the desk and wants to drop it off (it was picked up from a small town 45 minutes from city). Remember XW doesnít, well didnít, know where D18 and S19 live. D18 tells Mom the address and she shows up, in minutes - XW was already in the city.

XW and OM show up in his truck and bring in the desk. Mom got it for $100, and gave it to D18; not too sure about this gift and what strings may be attached. OM and XW bring the desk, hutch, and shelves into the apartment. And notice that S19 is not there.

D18 asks if they would like to visit or have a drink. Mom looks at her watch and says ďNo, it is late and we have to goĒ. (It is around 8:15 pm now) And thatís it - Mom and OM where there and left in mere minutes. D18 was standing in their already cramped apartment, now with desk and pieces in the way, wondering what the heck just happened. That was one fast visit.

D18 looked over the desk, which by the way is in excellent condition, and went to get some needed doweling pins to secure the hutch to the desk, and some shelving pins which were missing. She ended up putting it together, reorganizing the furniture, all by herself. This is the new state S19 and I found the apartment the next day. Needless to say S19 was a bit shocked.

The three of us went out for supper - fast food drive through and then sat at the edge of a wheat field overlooking the golden tassels while eating our burgers and fries. I dropped D18 back at home and S19 and I returned to mine. D18 assembled her chair and setup the printer that night. I did speak to her the next day and everything is working fine.

S19 is not pleased with Mom. And was a bit miffed with D19. A conversation, on our return trip, about what we can control (only ourselves and our actions) and he realized that D18 has the right to choose to tell Mom. Even though it does appear that some coercion and shady-ness did occur to get herself in the door.

XW most likely saw S19ís car parked at my place all week. For sure she saw the extra four vehicles on Friday and Saturday. While we were at S23ís, XW called S19, and after no reply, immediately called S23. He also did not reply and she probably continued on to the other children. It was obvious, with both of the boys in the same room, Mom was doing her rounds.

Itís sad, her choices and her consequences.

D
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/06/20 05:05 PM
Gerda - OFM. Thank you!

I do remember your feelings during my attempt at dating. I never even got out of the starting gate; two weeks, some calls and messages. She said she realized she wasnít ready and was going to give her H another chance. I did realize I wasnít ready.

My cars - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual - are much more lined up and purring along, when I am single. Not ďtryingĒ to date.

Thank you for sharing such kind words and open feelings.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Also how are you retiring at age 52? That is not rhetorical. I want to know how you did that.

I am 52, turning 53 in November. I can retire at 55.

Iíve worked at the same career for 31 years now. At 55 it will 33 or 34 years of service. That many years of pension contributions is significant. Full pension, which is somewhere around 70% of your best 5 years of salary, requires 43 years of service I believe. Early retirement is less.

This pension plan requires two things to retire early. First years of service and age when added together must equal 80 or greater. In my case it will be 88 when I am 55. I had the number 80 when I was 50-51. The second item is you must by at least 55. Once those are met you can retire, the payments are calculated upon years of service. I think I will be around 63% or so of my salary.

There are some options of amount of monthly payments. Payment after death of yourself or spouse. 3/4 or 1/2 to survivor, less monthly payment amount due to the other party receiving beneficiary payments until their death. In my case, that is no longer the case. Nor even an option, one has to be married. One can opt to just receive the full amount but their spouse must sign off. There is also some fixed calculations where the fund is completely paid out in 10 or 15 years. And one can withdrawal almost all the funds if they wanted too as well.

With no spouse, I will be receiving full single amount. This is more than I was planning on living on with for W and me; I should be able to survive having more money and just me. I am steering clear of the other options; a monthly payment for the rest of my life sounds pretty good too me.

The rest of how I did this. I paid off my/our debts early. I put almost everything towards the mortgage and paid off the house 19 years early. We also choose to live in a small town. Here my huge house and yard, costs far far less than living in the city. Honestly, in the city, I would have had a small yard and house, and would have been paying for the entire mortgage term. The housing costs are just crazy.

Out here, life is better (to me). And those 19 years of no mortgage payments allowed for a lot of good times and memories. Still weird for XW to throw all that away. And thankfully she signed off on everything, house, pension, etc. Just cost me a single lump sum payment.

Your H is not following that script. He is crazy with his legal costs. Your visual of where his lawyer is hiding did make my laugh.

Good for insisting on a court recorder. Get this on record and make them stick to it. Donít worry, not a highjack, I like hearing how things are going for you. And you can submitted items for my bucket list. smile

I do like teaching.... or inspiring.... hmmmm. Things to ponder.


bttrfly - I agree with your decisions and your reasons. Purging toxicity is a very good thing to do. I am very happy you are feeling free and great about this.

Thank you for sharing your view - it means a lot - right where Iím supposed to be.


Andrew - I have heard from most everyone that they busier retired than they were when working. smile

Thanks for the encouragement my friend, and saying my choice is a wise one. I guess it is right for me.


job - Yes, I can see travelling in my future. And being rather busy.

I do sort of have on my radar being involved in the local music festival. There are many jobs that need people. Scheduling is a big one that comes to mind; and I kind of do that for a living. Master of Ceremonies during the awards night seems to be a position not sought out. smile Public speak I suppose. Until now Iíve remained in the audience, helping out while my own children are performing seems self serving somehow. A new chapter is upon me. It will be interesting to see what I write.


kml - A good point. Itís not just about retiring from something, itís needs to be retiring to something. A side job could be a good fit, for it would be something I want to do. For if I needed the money I wouldnít retire my good paying job.

Along those lines, I can drive and help out local farmers during harvest. Handyman work, electrical, carpentry, etc...

And plenty of enjoying the sunset - for there are a finite number of those. smile


Kindly - Dr. Seuss, what a sage. Some of the earliest advice we hear comes back throughout our lives, each time still applicable.

I am looking forward to my retirement adventures and turning my dreams into reality. A book or a screenplay... hmmm. More pondering. Thanks for the vote of confidence.


It is interesting considering and planning towards retirement. I do love my job. I am at the top of my game. And things are going really well. And things are kind of static. As weird as that is, there is a bit of a missing challenge.

I suppose the biggest thing: All my life Iíve lived by - When facing a choice between time and money, always choose time.

I soon will have a big choice.

D
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/06/20 07:34 PM
If my ex hadnít been such a dummy, we would be retired now too, with a beautiful paid-off house and generous pension.

But now that everything has to cover two post-divorce households, heís retired but money is tight because heís got a big mortgage and health problems have interfered with post-retirement work for him. I could retire but only if I downsized and abandoned my kids, who still need some help. So I continue to work, setting up a better retirement for me and better futures for them. But I also enjoy my work, would just like to do a little less of it in the future.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/13/20 07:45 PM
Hello kml

I agree, itís better to work a few more years and be comfortable in retirement. Especially when you actually enjoy the work.

To me, that is still choosing time - retirement time. I am not looking to ďneedĒ to work once I stop working. That would kind of defeat the whole retiring philosophy. smile It sounds like you also have a good handle on where that line is. Financial needs and such.

- - - -

XW has dropped off the radar again. Her almost daily contacts to various kids has once again ended. S21 turns 22 in a couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see what she does.

Yesterday, I clean up some of, one of, the storage rooms in the basement. W and I had kept past dishes and things for the kids for when they move out. I have ensured each of them has seen what has been available and has had opportunity to take various things. All have dishes, pots and pans, glasses, etc..; and I still had a pile left over.

Another weekend, another purge of unneeded things.

Children car seats, and booster seats. 17 in all left my house; W did run a childcare here for 24 years, we acquired a lot of stuff.

I did kept two car booster seats (young child, non-infant), and two booster seats for kitchen chairs. These are good quality and shape, and have sentimental value as all my kids used them.

The windup swing seats were kept, collapsing strollers, and other useful items for eventual Grandchildren.

With four kids, W, and I, the boxes of mittens, scarves, toques, and such did take some time to go through.

An interesting thing I discovered: During the last few years preceding BD, W started wearing toque/hoodie type things with long tails that could be used to tie under your chin. She never actually tied this head wear, it is just fashion, and a young girl fashion at that. W had 23 of these hats! There was also many many scarves of Wís (more than 23). Man, that box was packed. She only took a couple of each when she left; her favourites I suppose.

After BD, and during XWís shopping trips through the house, a lot of of this stuff was uncovered, seen by me and daughter, and the put away again. XW took very little.

Over the years, and recently with daughter moving out, all of this stuff has been offered to daughter. She has taken only a few items, not wanting to wear stuff Mom has worn. Itís understandable. As such, all these hats and scarves made their way to the dump along with the child seats. Donating did cross my mind, however mice had gotten into the box and made a gross mess. Cleaning a whole lots of garments just wasnít in my plans and would derail what I am working on.

The hand crafted baby mittens, toque, and other garment keepsakes were carefully stored away. Mice did get into this as well, with less mess, yet still will require cleaning. These are too be kept, and are set aside for cleaning and disinfecting.

The carefully wrapped and stored baby dishes and such were also discovered. I have them set aside as well for cleaning and then eventual display. No need for hiding them in a box in the basement.

I found more dishes for the sets D18 and S19 have and will drop them off to them.

Silverware, old china, and other heirlooms were all wrapped and safe, after all these years.

W and I received many precious family heirlooms over the years. We lived a traditional life style, and raised our children with traditional morals and values. We had a strong marriage, family, and values. Well behaved children and loving household. All that really spoke to our older relatives. They are from an era of hard work, earn your way, and lead a good honest life. Oh boy, if they could see us now.

Some of the cherished items handed down are just incredible. Wís grandma gave us her tea set from when she was a little girl. It is china, white with blue picturing. Two tiny cups like one inch in height, two saucers, two slightly bigger plates, a wee sugar bowl, and a tea pot with sitting plate for it (shaped like a tea pot). The craftsmanship and details are so intricate. It is amazing such delicate items have survived. It looks mint, not a scratch or mark on any of the play set.

There are some tea cups and such crafted and marked with made in occupied Japan. Rather interesting to hold such a piece of history within your own hand.

A set of silver flatware. A complete set of china dishes, that was a wedding gift for my grandmaís mother. That would be somewhere around 1900-1910.

Anyhow, all that kind of stuff was of course kept. And set aside for cleaning and figuring out what do with it. Lol. I might have to make a china cabinet for display.

Plenty of other stuff, old boots, ski pants, candles, and such found its way out of my house to join the 23 hats.

There was a trove of young childrenís gifts to Mom and Dad. Really nice to see and hold again.

I went over to my Momís last night for supper and a movie and was telling her about all the stuff. She also showed me lots of her keepsakes and wondered if I would be interested in them as my sister is not. I mentioned one item I found - a jar with a taped on hand written label from W. It says ďMomís bickering and fighting jarĒ.

My Mom and I reminisced for a bit. W raised good kids. Morals and values mattered. This jar was for when the kids, boys and girl, fought with each other. They were fined. Lol. There never was much money in that jar. Oh, a few times they got fined, and losing their allowance seemed to adjust things.

W really was a good woman and Mom. Amazing actually. And everyone knows, I endeavour to be accurate in thought and heart. Relatives and friends agree, W and I were a great family. There is a reason I have a bunch of treasured items bestowed to her and I, now in my possession. W is such a lost soul, adrift.

The trip down memory lane was not a long one. And not even painful. Now, that is something I could not envision, the almost three years ago. There was so much pain and ruminating. One does get through this. Heals and becomes. Becomes what? Well, that is oneís choice.

D
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/13/20 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
The trip down memory lane was not a long one. And not even painful. Now, that is something I could not envision, the almost three years ago. There was so much pain and ruminating. One does get through this. Heals and becomes. Becomes what? Well, that is oneís choice.

D
Time does indeed heal. And perhaps put back on those rose coloured glasses.

I do though have every faith that your recollection of past times is indeed accurate and represents your own perspective. I'm glad that you are at peace with where you have been placed.

A painful acronym crossed my field of vision today that perhaps applies - WYGIWYGAINGW - What You Get Is What You're Given and It's No Good Whining laugh

Hold dear those memories. They are part of what built you and your kids into the people you are. And you all have much to be proud of.
Posted By: PLC Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/14/20 02:10 AM
Dnj,

I read what you wrote about your XW being a good parent and I feel the same about my H. Everyone thought he was just a hard worker who provided well for his family and was a good dad to his D.

I know I did not pick a crazy person, that is what makes this even more harder to understand. But that is MLC, I guess...
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/17/20 11:54 AM
Good Morning

Sitting here enjoying my morning coffee before heading off to work. Iíd tell you what itís like outside, but itís completely black. Must be overcast for there isnít even starlight. It is zero degree. Brrrr.

Andrew - Yes, time is the great healer.

I have always considered the malleability of memory. Oneís perception and recollection will be real to them. And if one alters or mixes up their memories, well their version of reality will follow; our spouses come to mind as an example.

I think, believe, I have ensured accuracy of my history. Pictures, other peopleís recollection, and such, do corroborate my view. The unpacking of the trinkets and treasures W kept over our 30 or so years together brought back many good memories, which of course added to this.

We are all built from our pasts. And our choices shape our future, a future which becomes our past. So, perhaps we are more built from our choices and how we face(d) the future.

Or my coffee is just too strong this morning. smile


PLC - We did not pick this crazy person. No, they were a different person, just like we were. Unseen within them were seeds of pain and torment; ones which they themselves didnít even realize existed. The alien spouse before us now, is much different.

There is a lot of advice to not demonize your spouse. One can see just how easy that could happen. That non-demonizing is usually more stated for around the children, however it applies everywhere. It was, well actually wasnít, all that surprising how many of my friends and coworkers turned on W. What she did is worthy of such expression and lashing out; however, there is a better path, the higher road.

I took that path. And the others followed. Iíve watched that compassion spill over from those around me to all kinds of aspects with our lives.

Demonizing XW would have changed my memory of her. Everything I have, memory, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, material proof, and so on - W doesnít deserve that fate. My kids, family, and I do remember the gal she was. We also see the person she has become - XW.

It does take a while to see that, and understand. We then empathize. We then accept.

D
Posted By: Vapo Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/17/20 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Good Morning

Sitting here enjoying my morning coffee before heading off to work. Iíd tell you what itís like outside, but itís completely black. Must be overcast for there isnít even starlight. It is zero degree. Brrrr.
D


0 deg. F?!?
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/17/20 01:14 PM
Hi Vapo

Oh gosh no. 0 degrees Celsius (32 F). Itís still light jacket weather.

However in a few months 0 F (-18 C) will be a nice mild day. smile

D
Posted By: wooba Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/18/20 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ
Demonizing XW would have changed my memory of her. Everything I have, memory, thoughts, feelings, beliefs, material proof, and so on - W doesnít deserve that fate. My kids, family, and I do remember the gal she was. We also see the person she has become - XW.

It does take a while to see that, and understand. We then empathize. We then accept.

D

When I was packing up H's stuff voluntarily yesterday, I came across his love letters to me from the first few years of our M. I read some of them and they made me cry. It felt like they were from a different life time. I have memory of the good times. But I also can see glimpses of his darkness now that I couldn't see before.

I feel like demonizing a WAS would probably be the easier way out. Isn't almost always easier to be hateful and angry (like most WASes) than choosing to be compassionate? It really does take strength to not rewrite history to fit our narrative.

as always, I appreciate your self-reflection.
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/18/20 03:27 PM
Quote
I have memory of the good times. But I also can see glimpses of his darkness now that I couldn't see before.


I donít demonize my ex. But after he left and the Rose-colored glasses came off, I could see my marriage in a whole different light. I could see that it lasted for 24 years in large part because I was the accommodating adoring wife to his narcissist . I could see that his infidelities were likely not just the two isolated incidents that I knew about, but a pattern of flirtations and possibly other infidelities that I was too blind to see. I could see that despite his overt romanticism, he never offered me that true selfless love that I gave him. I could see that he didnít see my light except as it reflected on him.

Yes, we were a good team in many ways - thatís how our marriage lasted 24 years. Yes, he loved me - in his dishonest, self-interested way but honestly I think thatís the best he has to offer. But he always kept the door to our marriage open a crack, was always considering whether there might be something else out there. I was just blinded by my love for him and my own commitment to making the marriage work.
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/20/20 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by kml
[quote] I could see that despite his overt romanticism, he never offered me that true selfless love that I gave him. I could see that he didnít see my light except as it reflected on him.

Yes, we were a good team in many ways - thatís how our marriage lasted 24 years. Yes, he loved me - in his dishonest, self-interested way but honestly I think thatís the best he has to offer. But he always kept the door to our marriage open a crack, was always considering whether there might be something else out there. I was just blinded by my love for him and my own commitment to making the marriage work.


I could have written this too except I am still not sure if my H totally snapped or just couldn't fight his true self anymore or was lying for much of our life together (maybe to himself as much as to me). Mine was always so opposed to divorce and saddened by the divorces of others. I kept thinking that he'd come out of MLC and be so thankful we didn't divorce. Now he is waging the most disgusting divorce ever. But I still think the love you felt was a triumph.
Posted By: DnJ Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 02:08 AM
Hello

My friend, work lady, has passed. Her fight against the aggressive cancer has come to an end.

Yesterday, Sunday morning, her love of life, her compassion, her kindness, her voice, lives now only in memory.

I was blessed to have known her.

God bless you my friend.

D
Posted By: Sage4 Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 03:01 AM
Oh D, I am so sorry for your loss.
Words are mere in the face of grieving a special person, so I am energetically wrapping you in a big, warm blanket of compassion and empathy.
Be well, sweet friend.
Posted By: kml Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 03:52 AM
Iím sorry to hear that. My receptionist had to leave early today for a funeral - a friend of hers, healthy 72 year old, dropped dead this weekend.

We all need to appreciate the people in our lives, nothing is guaranteed.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 12:12 PM
Big bro hug for you ((D)). The world is a slightly darker place for the loss of your friend but you have the memory of the light she shone. I like to believe that as long as you hold people in your heart and thoughts that they are never truly lost to you.
Posted By: Gerda Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 12:56 PM
(((((DnJ)))))))
Posted By: job Re: A Great Life #7 - 09/22/20 01:38 PM
I am sorry that your friend has passed away. Treasure the many memories of the times you shared with her.

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