Last threadLast post from the old thread.
I want my D to understand what marriage and vows and faith mean, so I don't have to pretend that what H and OW did for the last six years was okay. On the other hand, I still haven't told her 90% of what happened or that I had cancer while they were doing that. I never told my kids that I had cancer, still haven't told them, because I don't want them to worry about losing me while they are going through so much loss.
None of this is age-appropriate to a 2-year old, you handled it like a superhero as I said, but something to reflect on when the time comes as he grows up, if he asks questions.
This is really important to me as well. I think you can explain what happened in an age-appropriate way without editorialising, ie. “dad had an affair and that’s why we’re divorced” vs “dad cheated and ran off with a sl*tty wh*re”.
The important lesson for the child is this: when you get married, you promise not to have any boyfriends or girlfriends that aren’t your spouse. You’re each other’s special person, that’s what being faithful is. Dad broke his promise and that made me feel very angry and sad, so I can’t be his friend any more. But you don’t need to worry - I’ll always be here for you and I’ll always love you.
You are a good mum, Gerda
Hi Scout,
My friend and I were joking about what age-appropriate communication looked like... at what age can you say "your father couldn't keep his d**k in his pants"? Maybe for younger kids it need to be "your father couldn't keep his wee-wee in his pants?" Obviously kidding but it made me laugh.
I just want to reflect again on what a great mom you are. I think it was really smart to take a little time to decide how to respond. I know the sending poop-filled undies back has got to be so infuriating and ridiculous, and I appreciate how you took some time to not react to that, gave him the benefit of the doubt that he might not feel comfortable throwing out something you bought, etc. You took your time, figured out the best way to talk to the school, didn't react out of emotion, and handled it the best way for your son. How are you so calm and collected with all of this?
I know it must be hard to see your S coming back home without naps and having inhaled candy or whatever when he's with your ex. That would drive me absolutely bonkers and you're right in that there isn't really anything you can do about it. It is outside of your control. He may never have the perfect father figure. But he has YOU. And is an incredibly lucky little boy.
May, I can just imagine a little kid taking that super literally - "did he have a hole in his pants? did it fall out of his pocket?"
I don't think I'm doing anything other parents wouldn't do. As for remaining calm - if you read my first or second threads back when I was posting in Newcomers, you'll find me repeatedly freaking out over H being five/ten minutes late for child handovers. And I mean FREAKING out. It was silly. Eventually I learned to stop expecting H to do the right thing or even the comprehensible thing because he continued to demonstrate that he wouldn't or couldn't. You can't be disappointed if you don't have any expectations.
I had a fantasy of an amicable co-parenting relationship at first. I had accepted the end of the marriage. We'd had a cathartic final R talk and worked out a separation agreement. I was cooperative and pleasant. It felt apart because he had something to hide - the OW that I didn't know about at the time. I could NOT understand why he constantly undermined my attempts to construct a positive co-parenting relationship. I felt like I was going mad. Now THAT was emotional abuse. Parallel parenting was really my only option if I valued my sanity.
Thank you so much for saying that. I feel like I'm the lucky one, honestly. And I'm just glad that Australia doesn't have 50/50 default custody arrangements.
Just want to point out that it was H's morning with S2 yesterday and the daycare told me that S2 had been really 'off' all day when I picked him up that afternoon. When I arrived, I witnessed him push another kid off a bike. OMG. The teacher filled me in on his day while I held him. He clung onto my neck and kept saying "no, go away" in a very upset tone of voice. I asked him what he needed to feel better and he said "NOTHING!" Once I buckled him into the car and reassured him we were going straight home, he said "not mama's house!" I asked him if he felt sad and he said "at dad's house". I said "did dad give you a cuddle?" and he said "NO!" I asked "what does dad do to make you feel better? and he said "NOTHING!"
Now, this may have all been a ploy to get a treat, because when I asked what I can do to make him feel better, he said "chocolate". He did cheer up once we got home and spent some time together. I've sent him off to daycare today with reassurances that he is loved by me and will see his dad on Sunday. Hopefully he has a better day.
My friend and I were joking about what age-appropriate communication looked like... at what age can you say "your father couldn't keep his d**k in his pants"?
LOLOL May22, this cracked me up.
Scout - as for S2's meltdowns - do you have any idea what his time with his dad is like in the mornings he has him? Maybe he's just wearing him out playing so that he's tired by the time he gets to daycare? Or maybe he's filling him full of sugar so he's crashing at daycare? If it looks like a pattern developing, you might ask about those things.
Then again - sometimes it's really benign, ordinary kid things. Like pinworms keeping them from sleeping well at night and making them cranky the next day.
Can you get an advocate for S2? A social worker who speaks for him and visits both houses? What S2 said to you sounds concerning to me.
My D has things like that all the time but is obsessed with her dad. This evening I had to listen for a long time all about how she realized she met OW SIX YEARS AGO and also in the fall, when my H was still calling her his friend. It is so awful and painful. After I had to run to my church, which is still closed, and pray against the door. I let myself pray for some very dark things to happen to H and OW and then slowly asked for hope and love.
But I digress. My point is that I would not push what S2 said aside.
I only know what S2 tells me and obviously he’s not the most reliable witness at age two. I just interviewed him to get the scoop and here’s what he said:
Do you have a bed at dad’s house? “No, just at home.”
I believe this is true.
Does dad give you brekky in the morning? “Dada cooked eggies on toast.”
True.
Do you have toys at dad’s house? “No, just a dinosaur book [the only child-related item H took when he moved out]”
I know for a fact he has a train set and an electric four-wheeler.
Who do you see at dad’s house? “OW and [X’s two-year old niece].
True.
Do you watch TV at dad’s house? “I just watch dada’s TV.”
X was a screen addict and I don’t believe this has changed.
Does dad play with you? “No.”
Doubtful but possible.
Do you like dad’s house? “Yeah, I have fun.”
I believe this.
Do you want to go to dad’s house tomorrow [it’s X’s day tomorrow]? “Yeah!”
That’s a relief.
What do you do at dad’s house? “[walking away] I’m a little bit busy riding my bike now.”
LOL
I received an email from my L today saying there’s been no response from X to the divorce papers we sent two weeks ago. My L was explicit in her cover letter that he wouldn’t have to pay anything. Just sign and return the papers.
I was hoping to be divorced by my birthday at the end of July, but it’s not looking likely at this point. It takes a month and one day after final judgement for the divorce to be official. Fingers crossed X responds soon.
Good Morning scout
A couple of ideas for you to consider with the parallel parenting. You can still influence STBXH and need not just going along with his way during his time.
If S2 has few toys when visiting Dad, perhaps send a few “extra” toys with S2 for him to keep at Dad’s house. Best to get concurrence from H, of course that does tip into the coparenting realm.
I would suggest speaking to H about no bed for S2. The boy needs a bed, and a room. It’s hard to feel like it’s your home if you don’t even have a place to lay down.
It’s good to see S2 has fun with Dad (and obviously you as well
). His behaviour may just be benign actions of a growing boy. I’d treat it that way until you figure differently. Use those examples and times as learnings and lessons for son. He sounds like a bright lad, and is exploring and figuring out right from wrong, is all.
D
Hi scout ~
I agree with Gerda about looking into getting help involved making sure S2 is okay at both houses. Maybe your L can help advise how to handle it? You have genuine concerns about S2's safety and well-being, especially given STBXH's history. Handling it through a 3rd party may limit the discord.
Thank you both for the suggestions. I’ll keep a close eye on things with S2.
For the sake of having a complete record of this weird journey, I wanted to journal a couple of things I’ve recalled lately. I think a lot of the early months after BD were blocked out. This is all immaterial now and I don’t want to dwell, but I don’t want to forget either.
The first one. X avoided his parents for two or three months after BD. They met with me several times to try to get a sense of what in the world was happening. I was still somewhat stunned by his sudden departure and had no inkling there was OW. All he had told his parents was that we were on a break. They immediately asked (not being as naive as I) if there was someone else and he apparently scoffed at the mere question of such a ridiculous notion. When they saw me later, they pressed for details and I hesitated, wanting to protect X and not wanting to hurt his mother by listing the cruel things her son had given as his reasons for leaving. That I was lazy and boring, bad company and bad in bed, had never been good enough for him, and wasn’t the wife he deserved. I gave them a sanitised version and simply told them he felt he had settled for me. His dad replied “That’s funny, because we always though you settled for him.”
The second one. About six weeks after he walked out, X made the final decision to end the break and officially divorce. This happened during a talk with my stepdad, who had reached out to counsel X. My stepdad asked if X wanted him to pass on a message to me. X apparently believed this was an acceptable way for me to find out my marriage was over. Stepdad came straight to my house to hold my hand and walk me through the conversation. I asked stepdad later if X had mentioned S1 at all during this two-hour conversation and the answer was “not once”. Later I messaged X asking him to please tell me this himself because I was in a lot of pain. He ignored me for days until he couldn’t avoid coming to see S1 any longer. When I asked him to take S1 to daycare so we could talk, he said “I didn’t come here to talk to you, I came to see S1.” Incredulously, I asked if this was not kind of important and he said “not really”.
The last one. X organised a settlement discussion shortly after the above events. He knew I wanted to keep the house we spent the last five years building, and made no bones about the fact he couldn’t care less, because he was desperate to get my settlement funds as soon as possible. I asked my stepdad to mediate. X was like a brick wall throughout the discussion. I cried and had to leave the room multiple times while he sat in silence. My stepdad let me speak my truth while X occasionally made passive-aggressive comments like “are we talking or are you just gonna attack me?” At one point I sobbed and told X that I had thought about ending my life every day since he left me to care for S1 alone. He stared at the floor and said nothing. Even knowing the depth of my pain, he was still not willing to be honest about leaving me for OW. Even knowing that my stepdad’s first wife left him for their mutual best friend, and that it nearly killed him, and he lost custody of his adored daughters as a result, X sat there with a sad look on his face and assured my stepdad there was nobody else.
I know there are hundreds of identical stories on here and elsewhere. Worse stories too. I just wanted to purge this ugliness from my mind.
His dad replied “That’s funny, because we always though you settled for him.”
Glad your ex-in-laws have a clear picture of their son!
They ALL lie about having an OW, even when caught in the act. I had her picture and their communications UP ON MY EX's LAPTOP and he tried to deny his affair. (That didn't last more than a minute, but really? LOL).
They cannot accept responsibility for their actions - if they did, they would approach us in a mature way, but what mature person starts an affair before they end their marriage anyway?
They ALL lie about having an OW, even when caught in the act. I had her picture and their communications UP ON MY EX's LAPTOP and he tried to deny his affair. (That didn't last more than a minute, but really? LOL).
The audacity of this guy!
Hello scout
Good on you for not dwelling and yet not forgetting.
Very strong of, and good for you to share. There is something freeing about sharing such a painful event with those who understand. (((scout)))
In time, and sharing, the ugliness passes, yet the event, the facts, the memories remain without pain. These kind of life events build or break a person - it’s a choice to face it or not. MLCers do not, LBSers usually do. Glad to see you so strong.
D
Thank you for the virtual hug. It doesn't pain me much any more. On the scale of gaping wound to scar, these memories are about bruise-level. I only flinch when it is poked
After reading various different threads lately, it occurred to me how thankful I am to have had a runaway husband vs. a cowardly cake-eater. X dropped the bomb and was gone the next day. Ring off, moved out, no hesitation. I only Divorce Busted (aka pick-me danced) for four months. During this period, I recall a conversation where I asked him in exasperation why he hadn't yet decided to divorce if he was in fact "so done with me". He replied "fear of failure, fear of judgement, fear of expense". Nothing to do with me or S2. Just fear of consequences.
I would have filed for divorce in October last year if not for the mandatory 12-month waiting period. But it would have been done in anger and not with a clear heart and mind. I have no regrets. I am strong and proud of it. My gaping wound is cleanly healed. Just a little bruised still.
During this period, I recall a conversation where I asked him in exasperation why he hadn't yet decided to divorce if he was in fact "so done with me". He replied "fear of failure, fear of judgement, fear of expense". Nothing to do with me or S2. Just fear of consequences.
This hits the nail on the head. The WAS brain seems strange but simple. Mostly it’s just a lotta selfishness and fear. What a sad way to live isn’t it?
I am also thankful that my H willingly moved out shortly after BD. I didn’t even have to ask. It honestly made things so much easier for my children and me. Him moving out is about the only thing that shows that he still has some decency. But again, most likely he did not move out for the sake of us but simply because he needed to run.
You are lucky to have gotten out rather quickly. There is so much life to live still.
Ugh, Scout. What a winner. It is so empowering to watch you stand tall and shake the dirt of this guy off of your coat tails.
One of my best friends-- the one person I've told-- was also married to someone who I believe has narcissistic personality disorder (not to diagnose your X from what I know of him, but it does seem to fit). He also totally blew up their lives overnight-- went on a trip, met another woman, came home and BDed. Said all sorts of terrible things (you're not my intellectual equal and she is, you have no drive, etc) and was horrible throughout the entire D process. She has been dealing with trying to understand how she was married to him and loved him when we all knew what an a$$hole he was from the beginning. It doesn't sound like you're struggling with that, but did you? At first?
(And as a side karma note, her ex married the AP, plugged right into her family (she has a son) and flaunted his family and happiness all over the place. Until this past fall, three years or so after he left my friend, his new R imploded, they have now Ded, and he posted reams of sad belly-button contemplating garbage on social media and quit his job to travel around the world for a year... right before coronavirus hit. hee hee hee hee. But, he sent my friend a long email, which she has filtered into a separate folder and didn't want to read for a long time, since she is finally healing and moving on. She had me read it. In the letter, he has hit rock bottom. He finally understands how cruel and selfish he was being, how much he hurt her, how f-ed up it all was. He doesn't expect a response but needed to let her know how very very sorry he was and how much he regrets his behavior. Blah blah blah. And now she's in a great new relationship with someone who cares for and respects her and he's probably holed up at his parents' house quarantining. I know it is not nice of me but I can't help but feeling a bit of glee at how $hit comes back around.)
Reading your thread, and Alison's, I am thinking about the journey we all have to take to get to the place where you can see things more clearly. This:
I would have filed for divorce in October last year if not for the mandatory 12-month waiting period. But it would have been done in anger and not with a clear heart and mind. I have no regrets. I am strong and proud of it. My gaping wound is cleanly healed. Just a little bruised still.
Really resonated with me. I want that-- a clear heart and mind. Strength and pride and healing. And most importantly... no regrets. Thank you for sharing this. It is inspiring, Scout, truly. xx
quit his job to travel around the world for a year... right before coronavirus hit. hee hee hee hee.
And now she's in a great new relationship with someone who cares for and respects her and he's probably holed up at his parents' house quarantining.
LOL - karma is really a biatch, huh?
Nice to hear though that he actually admitted how badly he had treated her. Some do, some don't. I don't expect my narcissistic ex to ever do that, and frankly, I have NO desire to hear it. Karma has bitten my ex pretty well too. Initially, his new life at his beach cottage with his 19 year younger new wife looked fab. They travelled, he surfed a lot, they partied with her friends. Now a few years in and he's having terrible chronic nerve pain, she lost her parents and went through a depression, he retired just as the nerve pain started and coronavirus came along so his income isn't what he expected (where he works people take early retirement then work 2-3 days a week per diem to total the same income they had when they were working full time - but now he can't work and is limited to his pension and wife's income. He's fine financially but it's not the life he was expecting.) I'm sorry he's in pain but he's a good example that things are never as rosy as they look, and unhappy people searching for a "fix" to their unhappiness usually bring their unhappiness with them.
She has been dealing with trying to understand how she was married to him and loved him when we all knew what an a$$hole he was from the beginning. It doesn't sound like you're struggling with that, but did you? At first?
This has really made me think.
I did struggle with that. X was more of a Nice Guy than an a$$shole in appearances, but quite toxic beneath the surface. I excused a LOT of behaviour that should have been concerning simply because I loved him. He was everybody's friend (but the friendships were emotionally shallow). He loved a good time (but couldn't handle the bad times). He was the golden child at work (but only because he blameshifted responsibility onto others). He was invested in other people (but wanted to judge and advise them on what they were doing wrong in their lives).
I thought I was the only one who noticed these parentheses, but it turns out that everyone did.
I never dated anyone before X so I had zero relationship experience. I allowed myself to get into hot water with an increasingly abusive man because this must be normal, right? I'm a strong woman and wouldn't put up with any abuse, right? In truth, my boundaries were very weak and X was a master at making me feel like my needs were unreasonable. It was a frog boiling in a pot scenario.
The one very clear red flag was his physical aggression. That got my spidey senses tingling but again, I was naive and in love and made excuses for it. My mum was absolutely horrified when I eventually laid out the instances of rage over the years. X punched a hole in a door while we were renting my parents' apartment. Mum privately worried about that for years.
My case was somewhat easier than yours because my X DID act like a real a$$hole after BD - one that constantly leaked sh!t
Still, I wanted to believe the best of him. I willingly ate that sh!t because I loved him. I could sooner have chopped off my own arm than stopped loving him. Love doesn't work like that, for me, and I'm sure for you, too. He was my friend, my first boyfriend, my husband, my son's father. My family.
So I had to deliberately lean into the a$$shole theory for a while to be okay with my decision to end the M. I asked trusted friends, family and my psych to give me their view of conversations between me and X (because I was too mindf*cked at first and kept internalising all the blame) - this was KEY. I wrote a list of every awful thing he told me and read it whenever I felt weak. I made a spreadsheet of his pros and cons and a third column with my ideal relationship qualities. I realised how few of my ideals he actually met. Two items on the cons list really stood out - "had an affair" and "tried to destroy me emotionally". Those two items alone made me feel crazy for even contemplating reconciliation.
And the way he treated S2 was a huge 2x4 for me. I could accept the relationship was over, but what kind of man throws away the gift of fatherhood? I stopped looking for excuses and started looking at the evidence.
I still think that R could be possible in my sitch - as in anyone's sitch - but I hold the deciding vote. And I have walked away from the voting booth altogether. You can't lose if you don't participate. Our M is over, not because of X's decision, but because I know in my heart, my gut, and with every inch of my being, that I cannot reconcile after all that was said and done. I still WISH that I could have left it open as an option. Who doesn't want their love story to have a happy ending?
Even when he turned up with hickies which made it obvious he had been with someone else, I lowered my boundaries even further by reassuring him it wasn't cheating because we were already separated. Despite telling him when we first got together that I had two relationship rules - 'Tell me if your feelings change', and 'I will never accept cheating'. Even after clearly setting these expectations, I lay down and rolled over when they were tested. That has more to do with me and my flaws than with X.
When I realised the OW was a coworker, who had spent time with me and S2, and that X had in fact betrayed me and not just moved on with a random person, it all crystallised for me. Before I realised her identity, I would have left the door open for reconciliation forever. But once the magnitude of the deception was revealed, and all the little lies were exposed, I was too disgusted with X. I still loved him, but I had to take R off the table.
It would kill my soul to ever take him back.
Now that my anger has passed - and it was legit WHITE HOT RAGE for about six months - the a$$shole theory no longer serves me, so I've put it away. Pity is my main emotion now. I think X was raised wrong and I feel sorry for him that he lacked a good example in his parents. I think he's a moron and a clown for not appreciating what he had - a wife, a child, his own home, a career, a lot of money - at just 28 years old. My psych thinks he does fall on the NPD scale and that could well be true.
I still feel love for him and probably always will, if for no other reason than our shared history. I AM embarrassed that I spackled over his issues for so long. I do think I settled for him. Our relationship was not a mistake and I will never regret it because it gave me S2. X is just the price I had to pay for my awesome kid.
Love is stupid and makes you act stupid - our spouses are proof of this. All that matters is that this relationship is not acceptable to me. This person is not an acceptable partner for me. Or anyone, I'd argue, which also helps me forgive the OW somewhat because she's in for a world of hurt at some point. I can simultaneously love him and not want to be with him. Because I love myself more now.
I told X that if S2 ever treated someone the way that X treated me, I would have failed as a parent. My only parenting goal is for S2 to never intentionally hurt someone. If someone unknowingly or accidentally hurts you, and you tell them, and they continue to hurt you? You have to love yourself enough to walk away. It's not on them to stop, because you cannot compel them to do so, it's on you to leave. That being said, abusers will make it difficult. Statistically, it takes seven attempts for an abuse victim to leave. I would never blame anyone for struggling to do so.
Anyway, I'm rambling now and have gone way off topic. Thanks for the question, May.
My mum was absolutely horrified when I eventually laid out the instances of rage over the years. X punched a hole in a door while we were renting my parents' apartment. Mum privately worried about that for years.
Mine never did anything like that - but if I had asked my family before my marriage if I should marry my ex (and if they had been honest, which I'm not sure they would have) - the answer would have been they had a lot of reservations. They could see his arrogance and the dismissive way he acted towards them when I couldn't. And that was a big red flag that I ignored.
kml - Would you have heeded their reservations though? My family was concerned about X's physical aggression and his control of our finances. They didn't mention it before the marriage. I'm not sure I would have heeded it either.
May - I left out the key summary of my wall of text. It should have gone in this paragraph:
Love is stupid and makes you act stupid - our spouses are proof of this. It doesn't matter whether or not I love him or whether or not he's always been an a$$hole. All that matters is that this relationship is not acceptable to me now. This person is not an acceptable partner for me now.
So I just watched Athlete A on Netflix - doco about Larry Nassar and the sexual abuse cover-up in USA gymnastics - and found it extremely heartbreaking but also revelatory for my own life. All the talk of abuse here lately has made me examine things that I haven’t really thought about for years. And this is actually hurting me right now.
I’ve mentioned before about my swimming coach. He coached me from the age of 8 until I graduated high school at 16. From learning to swim in the local pool I eventually became a National age medallist and a member of elite squads as a young teen. I was determined to make it to the olympics (spoiler: I didn’t, LOL). I was a born overachiever and swimming is a very tough sport. Even from a young age, pre-teen, there is always someone training harder than you. By the age of 9 I was training before and after school five days a week.
The coach was a young man in his twenties. He had been a swimmer and his dad was a notoriously tough coach. My coach didn’t make it big and had settled for coaching the local squad in my home town. I was the breakout star of his small squad - a big name in our small town. I started making headlines and getting attention from talent scouts. My coach boasted and basked in my achievements. He made a bad rep for himself in the national swimming community for being arrogant and rude. Other coaches had multiple olympians in their squads and mine was small potatoes in comparison, but he thought he was a big shot.
He used me to gain glory for himself. He would push me to the point of physical injury and mental breakdown and then accuse me of lying about being hurt. He isolated me from the rest of the squad and made me train privately with him where we were the only two people in the pool complex at 5:30 in the morning - a 25-year old man and a 12-year old girl. He would assign me a main set, knowing it was just beyond the limits of what I could achieve, and yet I would deliver, because I didn’t feel that saying no was an option. Then, after watching me cry or vomit following the set, he would tell me that it was actually just a warm-up set, and there was a more difficult set to come. And still, I would do it. I became pretty good at sprinting laps while sobbing and choking on water. I was just a child of 12, 13, 14 years old.
So I was conditioned to believe I had no voice and no choice. I brushed off my mum’s concerns at the time because this was my dream and I wasn’t about to give it up. My schoolwork suffered in my senior year of high school. I wasn’t allowed to go to parties because I always had training the next morning. I never tasted alcohol until my graduation. My family couldn’t go on holidays because I couldn’t be out of the pool for a week. I began having nightmares about drowning in the pool and the town being flooded. Even years later, when I was in my twenties and had retired, I still had nightmares. One in particular I screamed at the coach “you can’t tell me what to do anymore!”
This is the part of the doco that stood out more than anything:
“You know, in other sports, the athletes are adults. They can reasonably make choices about what they want... these kids go to national training centres when they are ten years old. They are abused and mistreated for years, so even by the time they’re of age, the line between tough coaching and child abuse is blurred. So then when real, obvious abuse [like sexual abuse, fortunately nothing of the sort in my case] happens, you already don’t believe your own take on things.”
I know on the scale of abuse, my experience doesn’t rank that seriously. But what happened to me went beyond tough coaching. It was child abuse. In the literal sense of the word as I shared with May - the improper usage of a thing in order to gain benefit. The exploitation of a power imbalance for personal gain. It goes a long way toward explaining why I allowed myself to stay in an increasingly abusive relationship ten years later.
Once I burned out after graduation, the coach moved away to become an assistant coach at a larger, more prestigious program. He was still using me to pump himself up though, and after hearing all about my achievements, the head coach eventually contacted me and convinced me to give swimming another shot. He believed I was too young and too talented to retire. I moved out of home at 16 and boarded with a family an hour away from home. My old coach couldn’t accept that he didn’t have control over me anymore. He would approach me during training when he was supposed to be coaching the juniors. Eventually I told my new coach that I wasn’t comfortable with it and he took me very seriously - old coach was fired from the program. The last I heard, he dropped out of the swimming community altogether and left the country.
I’ve never shared this before but it helps to write it all down and reflect. The doco left me in tears, but some of those tears were for myself.
I think on any scale of abuse your experience ranks VERY high. 2x daily abuse for years. Quite an extraordinary abuse of power on his part. Let’s not downplay it because it was not sexual. Abuse is abuse is abuse.
Regarding talk of physical abuse here lately, it’s quite alarming and sad to me to be reading some of the responses, truth he told. Just like the coach was in a position of power, “vets” here can wield that same degree of authority to people who are in a desperately low time of their lives. I see an abuse of power in telling someone who is physically abused that you can help or “this too shall pass” or “just GAL and DB and you too can reconcile.” It is unhealthy to enable.
Meanwhile some of these same “vets” tell a man to throw a WAW wife out for being disrespectful.
I can see why reading some of this is drawing forth past demons. I have no abuse in my background and I am disturbed.
Hi Scout,
First off... thank you for sharing that. I know you've talked about it a bit before, but not to this extent. I can relate because I was a swimmer too and did doubles all through high school. I was nowhere near as good as you, but I saw a similar dynamic with our coach and the swimmers in our program who competed nationally, who ended up totally burning out. I got major overuse injuries in both shoulders. There is something wrong with the system itself, I think, that allows for those abusive coach-athlete dynamics to flourish and it feel OK to push your body past the point of injury.
As a side note, D10 joined a relatively relaxed swim team this past year. They only use five lanes for swim team and have free lap swimming in that last lane, so I started swimming again. The first practice was so awful. It was so hard for her (and me!), I could see her struggling to keep up, so so tired, and I was so tired and muscles burning swimming next to her... and realized that this was the first time she'd ever pushed herself to the edge physically for no purpose other than that. She plays soccer and runs hard to get the ball, but getting physically exhausted is a side effect, not the purpose. I felt SO BAD for her. I was exhausted and out of shape and wanted to stop, but kept going because I figured I couldn't quit if my tiny daughter was going to keep going. Anyway. It just was a huge eye opener for me about what swimming is really like.
It is really wonderful to see, though, how you can recognize how that experience has shaped you and maybe set you up in some ways for not recognizing the abuse that was happening in real time with your H. And he does continue to really sound like a piece of work that I'm so glad you have escaped.
Love is stupid and makes you act stupid - our spouses are proof of this. It doesn't matter whether or not I love him or whether or not he's always been an a$$hole. All that matters is that this relationship is not acceptable to me now. This person is not an acceptable partner for me now.
This is gold and so important. And so, so hard to tease apart the present from the past, the father from the husband, the history and the house and the shared friends and accounts and what actually remains once all of that is cleared out of the kernel of the relationship between H and W. I bounce back and forth between wishing I had your sitch, a true walkaway who didn't look back vs my own situation which-- to me, at least, today-- feels complicated and difficult. I often think, if we didn't have children, I'd be gone. If he moves out, I'd be gone. Sorting through my actual feelings on all of this and what *I* really want and need in this moment, now; what I want for the future for me and my kids; and to be able to look, clear-eyed, at my H and decide what the chances are of him becoming the H I need, and how to balance that with the kids.
Anyway. thanks for continuing to share your story.
Can’t help but hear Tina Turner singing “What’s love but a second hand emotion....”
As an older, wiser woman, I think much of what we mistake for “love” in our youth is need - need for validation, need for sex, the urge to procreate. I think the reason it’s so difficult when we lose a romantic partner is because so much of our identity is wrapped up in that relationship.
At my age now, I see love very differently. Love is affection and caring for a person. Love is as love does. I don’t need a man to validate me. I’ve loved many people In my life because I am capable of love. Sure, you need to be attracted to someone - but that can grow, even if someone doesn’t initially seem like your type. The really important things are kindness, shared values, intellectual companionship, and sexual compatibility. If you’re a young person planning a life together, sharing a similar idea of your goals in life is important.
kml - Tina Turner is an amazing, inspirational woman. I completely agree with your thoughts on love. Love is a verb, not a noun.
May - your sitch sounds incredibly hard to handle, but you are doing so well. I don't know what I would have done if X had refused to leave or tried to come back. Taking space in every possible dimension was key for me. You don't want to be stuck in the same place a year or two from now. It's unsustainable.
HaWho - thank you for validating, it was really hard for me to admit to myself the nature of that relationship. I don't believe that people set out to harm other people (for the most part, psychopaths and some cluster B personalities excepted) but that's not an excuse for abuse.
Some random things have been happening. Nothing much on their own, but interesting in tandem.
1. A collection notice for an unpaid bill in X's name came to me by mistake today.
2. Someone tried to login to my Facebook account (which is deactivated) and my Amazon account yesterday.
3. My BIL (who works for the the same company as X) told me last week that no employee wants to work at X's location because he has such a bad rep as a manager.
4. X responded to my L last week about the D paperwork saying "Apologies, will action as soon as possible". Since then - nothing.
5. I went on a date last week and realised I'm capable of having feelings for someone again. Whether it goes anywhere or not is irrelevant. I'm not broken!
5. I went on a date last week and realised I'm capable of having feelings for someone again. Whether it goes anywhere or not is irrelevant. I'm not broken!
woohoo!! I'm rooting for you. Keep us posted!!
Oh - number 5 explains all the others, I think!
Somehow, the WAS had psychic powers when the LBS starts to date, I swear. Even if they don’t consciously know about it, they sense it. And even though they threw the LBS away, it drives them crazy that you’re not sitting on a shelf waiting as Plan B.
Congrats on the date.
OK, that’s pretty funny if true.
Another funny thing. X was pretty conscious about device privacy and security. Everything was password protected and we didn’t share anything. We had our own phones, tablets, desktop PCs. He practically lived on his computer playing video games (and conducting his affair, I guess).
S2 just came home and was chatting about what he did with dad. Went to the butcher and watched TV. Sounds like he had a fun time - yay. OW didn’t come because she was working from home. On dad’s computer.
I guess there isn’t a lot of trust between two cheaters
Yes - can you imagine being in a relationship with someone you cheated with? You would always be looking over your shulder, wondering when they are going to cheat on YOU.
Not much is happening with me lately. I am very grateful for that. S2 and I have a wonderful routine and the days are speeding past at a frightening rate. I haven’t had to set an alarm to wake up for quite a while. I wake up whenever S2 does, take him to daycare, work in my home office for eight hours, go back to daycare to pick him up. He picks me flowers on the ten-minute walk home. We eat, read, and play together. It’s a quiet, content, peaceful life.
X has had divorce papers for a month now without response. It’s been six months since I agreed to increase his parenting time without response. I’m planning a divorce/birthday party for the end of the month even though the divorce won’t be final by then. Our restrictions are very relaxed here so I’ve invited around 20-30 people. It’ll be nice to have friends and kids around for a winter’s evening around the fire. I will be the ripe old age of 32
S2 continues to give me glimpses into X’s life. X sent an unusually nice response to a text message informing him S2 was unwell. S2 apparently hasn’t seen OW for the last four or five visits - she has been “at work” or “in the garage” or “on the computer”. Hmm. Yesterday S2 said Dad took him to the shops and bought a brand new TV. So he’s still buying shiny new toys with the settlement money after two motorbikes and a jetski. Still running.
Not your circus, not your monkeys thank goodness.
I hope OW returns as she probably provides a measure of safety for your son.
Most WASs are lousy at getting their paperwork done - it's not the zipless divorce they expected where everything falls into place with zero effort on their part. I hope he doesn't hold it up too long and that your financial settlement is not affected by the delay in any way? I never understood letting the finances be settled before the divorce, it removes the motivation for some people to finish it.
Aren't you glad not to be at the whim of your ex's financial irresponsibility any more? You have a good head on your shoulders and will much better off financially in the long run, I'm sure.
The financial settlement won’t be affected, thankfully. It was court-ordered and legally binding and separate to the divorce order. It was in my best interest to get that done sooner to sever any ties to his financial irresponsibility. He was in a big rush to get the $$$ (although did nothing to legally obtain it and ended up taking five months to sign those papers). He’s always been a procrastinator so this is just more of the same, I think.
The Application for Divorce is very simple in comparison to financial Consent Orders. Basically just key relationship dates and proof than any children of the marriage will be supported. He doesn’t have to provide any new information, just review and sign it. So yes, hopefully soon. I am filing jointly so as to not appear in court. If X refuses to sign, I can file a sole application that doesn’t require him to sign anything, and the court will grant the divorce as we have been separated 12 months, which satisfies the ‘legal proof the marriage is irretrievably broken’ requirement.
I’ve just done my taxes and will be getting a significant return this year - about 6 times what I usually get. I’ve been very lucky with my finances this year (aside from paying out X in the settlement, or perhaps because of it...)
You will continue to be "lucky" because you will be in charge of where your money goes and you aren't driven by trying to fill a giant hole in yourself with expensive stuff the way he is. You'll do just fine I bet.
I hope so.
We engaged a builder to install a pergola shortly before X left. Or rather I did the legwork to contact him, get drawings and quotes, arrange certificates and building approvals, while X seemed happy enough to go along with it. The guy we hired turned out to be a bit dodgy and the job itself took forever and was a bit sloppy. Not unsound, but not perfect. It's complete now and given that it's on my property, I'm happy with it. It created a shady tiled patio area with built-in lighting for evening ambience. It really is very nice.
During his anger spewing phase, X brought this project up a disproportionate number of times. He rewrote history saying he never wanted to build it in the first place, he hated the builder I chose, I forced him into agreeing to spend money on the project, and that it had dragged down the value of the house. Although later, when negotiating the settlement, he claimed that the value of the house had INCREASED by $100k based on the pergola and landscaping projects we had done. Of course, a higher property value would have been in his favour
He seemed incredibly triggered by the poor workmanship. He couldn't accept that things sometimes go wrong with building projects and that fixes are par for the course. It's almost like he thought the quality of the build was a reflection of him. I believe now that it conflicted with his worldview that he is better, smarter, and more accomplished than everyone else. It also confirmed in his eyes that I am simultaneously incapable (because I hired a dodgy builder) and controlling (because the project was my idea).
On the topic of finances. He insisted we follow the FIRE money management philosophy to save while I was on maternity leave. I was given a small weekly allowance. If we went out to eat, it came out of my allowance. If I spent my allowance, I could not spend more. If I spent more anyway, it was curtailed the following month. He put himself on the same plan, but there were always exceptions. Long weekend camping trips with the boys. $1000 on 'the world's best' set of stainless steel pots and pans. An $800 custom-made suit for his friends wedding. Meanwhile I had to repay $800 from my personal account back into the family account for a family photoshoot with S2.
He would never agree to replace the tiny secondhand dining table we inherited from his parents despite it being the number one thing I wanted when we moved into our brand new house five years ago. That dining table represented the heart of the home and the family I wanted to create. It was of zero importance to X. When he moved out and took that cr@ppy little glass table with its ugly blue vinyl chairs, my lovely new custom timber dining table wasn't yet ready for collection. I asked him to leave the table with me for a couple of weeks so that S2 could have somewhere to eat his meals. He said it wasn't his problem.
He spent $2k on his 'dream wheels' for his car which I had no problem with. Then, just months later, he found his 'no, no, seriously this time, actual dream wheels' and wanted to spend $4k on them. He raged and sulked in a very unattractive manner when I said I wasn't comfortable with spending that amount of money, from the family account, while I was on minimum maternity leave wage, when he had just purchased new wheels. You would have thought I was Hitler by the reaction I got.
Meanwhile I was using a literal grocery bag as a handbag when I went back to work because I couldn't afford a new one. I was unable to spend money on new clothes to suit my postnatal body, makeup to hide my tired eyes, hairdressers to fix the weird new hair growth that happens after giving birth (seriously, what is up with that?) and X had the nerve to say I hadn't bothered to take care of myself and that he had too much disgust and contempt for me to stay married. God, what a duck he is (thanks Cardinal!).
To be honest, I still struggle with the effects of his financial abuse. I find it incredibly difficult to allow myself to spend money on things that are just for me. I needed to buy a new bedroom setting so I can move my current seven-year old IKEA cheapie set into the spare room. Even though I needed it and got an amazing deal in the EOFY sales, I still felt guilty enough to call my mother and ask permission to spend my own money. She reassured me that it was okay and I bought it. But there's always fear/guilt around making purchases like that.
This turned into a bit of a rant down memory lane! Honestly, it's pretty telling that despite buying him out of the house, spending over $10k on lawyer fees, paying the mortgage and bills on my own, and refurnishing the house, I've SAVED money this year.
Clearly he didn’t understand what FIRE is all about!!! Or more likely, he just used it as leverage to punish you for not bringing in your usual income during maternity leave.
Enjoy your pergola. Enjoy your dining table. Read Your Money or Your Life - it’s not about grinding frugality, but about being conscious about your financial choices and the trade offs therein. Spend your money on the things that have most value to you, and save on the things that don’t.
I don’t spend a lot of money on clothes - I buy cute things from a discount store but have never paid more than $40 for a handbag. Designer names mean nothing to me. But I love to travel, and make that a priority. Somebody else might make different choices.
My ex made twice what I did even after accounting for alimony - and he’s remarried to a woman with a good income too. Yet he claims he’s too poor to help our adult children - truth is he’s simply too selfish. Aiding our children is not a priority for him, but it is for me. I pay for a much bigger home than I would need for myself and give up travel to help them get established.
Keep building your savings so that you have 6 months of 12 months living expenses - as a single parent, you’ll sleep well at night once you do. But don’t live a life that feels like deprivation either. Figure out what matters most to you. I’ve never driven a luxury car - I tend to buy a new, base model Honda or Toyota and drive it into the ground. But I’ve been to 15 countries and all over the US. My plain car doesn’t feel like deprivation because I know I have traded it for exciting travel. Others might choose the fancy car and not miss the travel. Awareness of the choices you are making is key. Most people just mindlessly spend on things the television tells them to buy.
Good Morning scout
It’ll be nice to have friends and kids around for a winter’s evening around the fire. I will be the ripe old age of 32
Having 20-30 people over to celebrate sounds wonderful. I hope, at the ripe old age of 32, you can remain awake long enough into the evening to enjoy it. LOL.
scout, I’m sure you are far enough down the path to recognize just what an incredible opportunity and journey you were derailed onto. You really are doing great.
I nodded in agreement as I read how fast times is flying by for you. It’s such a swing from those days/minutes that just dragged after BD.
You and S2 enjoying your daily walks, flower picking, and playing; he is a very lucky boy.
I agree with kml about finances. It’s not frugality, it’s making good conscious choices and seeing and understanding the benefits and consequences of those. And it’s ok to “ask” your Mom about spending your own money. I know it’s more “talking” to another adult to get perspective and weigh options. That shows a great deal of foresight; you do have son and you to plan for.
Figure out what matter most to you. Then invest into it. Invest your resources - time, intellect, emotions, soul, money, etc. Invest not spend. A way of looking at things.
Financially you are considering your discretionary expenses. Non-discretionary expenses, rent, mortgage, electricity, etc. are just that non-discretionary and need to be paid.
I also maintained my cars so a I could drive them well past a decade. The driving them into the ground idea. My old Prius has 470,000 on it and S21 is happily and safely bombing around in luxury.
I am also not one that looks to brand names. I look to quality. It’s the investing mindset. Quality lasts longer. Save a bit longer and invest not spend. That philosophy, not surprisingly, has a much better payback when considering the non-financial part of our lives.
One of the best investments I ever made was to pay off my mortgage early. I knocked 19 years off my mortgage. Yes, the financial implications of saving mortgage payments over 19 years is staggering. However, it was the stability of life that drove it. Definitely not mindless purchases on what the TV says.
At 31, oh so close to 32, you have (what you’ve heard here a lot) the gift of time. Just imagine where you will be at 52.
D
Big second on paying the mortgage off early. When I bought my post-divorce house it was my goal to pay it off early. I'm not where I'd like to be (in large part because of the unexpected kid expenses my ex has stuck me with) but still, I only owe less than 1/3 of the current value of the house, which is a comfortable position to be in. You're young enough that you could start adding a little bit to your mortgage payment.
I have been putting extra repayments on the mortgage as well as into savings. I have a meeting with my financial advisor next week to start talking about investment possibilities. Definitely thinking about long-term plans. My priorities are:
1. Financial security
2. Enriching S2’s life
3. Investing in S2’s future
4. Enriching my own life
5. Investing in a comfortable living space
After a discussion with my lawyer yesterday, we are proceeding with the sole application for divorce. X will be served the papers in person informing him that I have filed and there will be a hearing on x date. He can either sign on the spot to acknowledge receipt, or refuse to do so. In that case, the process server will sign an affidavit proving delivery of the papers, and we’ll proceed with the hearing regardless. There’s no reason why the divorce wouldn’t be granted, from what I understand. Thirty days after the judgement, I will finally be divorced. My lawyer said it will be done over Zoom so it should be pretty straightforward. I hope.
It’s like pulling teeth, but the end is in sight. Soon he won’t be my ex, just my kid’s dad. I know technically he is my ex, but the distinction feels important to me. I don’t want him to be ‘my anything’.
S2 said he went to OW’s parents farm on the weekend. I admit to wondering how her parents feel about their 21 year old daughter dating a 29 year old separated man with a 2 year old son. My mum said she would have looked askance if any of her daughters had been involved in such a situation at that age. I’m absolutely certain the question of an affair runs through older and wiser minds in most of these situations.
I’m going on a date with another new man this weekend. He is also a LBS with a D2 and we have heaps in common. The thing I like the most is that he has so far demonstrated a complete lack of entitlement. What’s the opposite of entitlement - consideration? For instance, I told him I liked xyz and he replied that he hoped it wasn’t a dealbreaker for me that he wasn’t into xyz. Whereas other men I’ve talked to, and X for that matter, would have said it was a dealbreaker for them that I was into xyz.
I’ve talked to dozens of men in the past year and this man makes me feel safe. I read a dating theory that feeling ‘sparks’ is just your nervous system’s flight or fight response to perceived or subconscious danger - in dating, that would be negging, lying, avoidance, and other behavioural red flags. There have been no red flags in our conversations so far. So we shall see what happens when we meet in person.
Hi Scout,
Congratulations on getting to a place where you can finally see an end in sight and finishing out the D-- that must feel really good. Yay! And the meeting with the financial advisor-- from where I sit, you feel so positive and strong and forward-looking. It must feel amazing to be able to take control of those parts of your life where your kid's dad (
) was so controlling and nasty. I have to admit I'm pushing on building this fence I want at my house right now because I know it will cost more than it will increase the value of the house, and I just want it for me no matter what happens.
I love that this new man makes you feel safe. That is so important. And fun that your kids are the same age. I'm excited to hear how it goes when you meet in person!
I wonder a little bit if the mechanics of online dating (not that you met him that way, not sure, but was just thinking about it) brings out a little of the entitlement in many participants, because you can so easily swipe or whatever and make judgments about someone and if they're right for you based on a photo and whatever they choose to share in that introductory page. It was just occurring to me because I was hanging out with a friend who is Ded and has been online dating, and she was showing me how it all works. It is kind of addictive and fun and we were swiping right and left and having a grand old time doing it. And then all of a sudden I felt kind of gross like here we were judging these poor men on their looks and what they said on this page, or how funny and interesting they were on texts. Just when you said the part about men feeling like it was a dealbreaker for them that you liked XYZ I realized I was looking at it the same way from my friend's perspective, oh this guy is no good because he (whatever)... and it felt more like shopping than like actually connecting with another human being with thoughts and feelings and a whole inner emotional life. All that to say... if you've found one who is so considerate that his first thoughts are of what is right for you, not for him.. that is pretty cool.
Hello scout
You have a very good list of long term priorities for yourself. Good job. You’d be surprise (or not) at how many people really have no plan what so ever.
Anyhow, a wee bit of advice from a guy who’s got a couple of decades on you. Breakdown each of those items into smaller actual goals/steps/milestones, and you will achieve them. For example: Financial Security, what does that look like to you. What do you need to see to know you made it. Then you can figure out actionable step to get there.
I like Investing in S2’s Future. There is a lot of space for ideas regarding this one. Wanting the funds to allow him to attend post secondary education. I need $100,000. Ok, I’ll invest $50/month at x%, compounded monthly, for 16 years, and bingo.
The money aside, invest your time. (Think years from now) As he gets older, as my life gets busier, as the demands of my employment grow, as his demands at school increase, as his wanting to be with friends increases, we will still sit and eat super together every Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday night. Not at the TV, around the table.
Ok, that is years away. Still, set the stage for that, now. Which, btw, you are doing.
Good for you proceeding with the divorce all on your own. Yeah, XH is dragging his feet.
I know technically he is my ex, but the distinction feels important to me. I don’t want him to be ‘my anything’.
It’s coming.
I technically am divorce. However, I mostly think of my self as single rather than divorced. I suppose it’s more how I choose to define myself.
I do agree we have responses to perceived or subconscious dangers, those ‘sparks’ you spoke of. I did actually have to look up negging to see what you were talking about. Lol. Dang, these young kids and their new fangled words and stuff.
(Raps on window with walking stick) Hey, you kids get off my lawn. hahahahaha
Good luck on your date.
D
I read a dating theory that feeling ‘sparks’ is just your nervous system’s flight or fight response to perceived or subconscious danger
Wow - that would explain a lot!
Date with the new guy had to be rescheduled due to weather and illness. We are going to grab coffee this weekend instead.
I did meet him on a dating app, May. Honestly, I have no qualms swiping left on the great majority of men simply because I feel they can't meet me where I'm at and they don't have anything to offer me.
I'm about to be 32 years old. I'm a single mother raising my baby (essentially) on my own. I earn six figures in a software marketing role. I've navigated a pretty brutal betrayal and abandonment by my son's father. I handled the financial settlement required to buy my own home. I'm a tough broad! I don't need a man. Honestly, I'm not even sure that I want one. I have plenty of meaningful relationships with both men and women. But dating is part of the human experience, and it's something I've never done before, so I'm seeing what it's all about.
I vet these profiles very carefully. The slightest red flag is enough for me to unmatch and block a man without hesitation or regret. I absolutely am judgemental because it means I value myself too much to settle again. I am a prize and have always treated my partner the same way. My next partner will either reciprocate that effort or there won't be a next partner
On the divorce side of things, it looks like X will be served on Thursday morning when he has S2. It's the only time I could be sure he'd be at home. I'd prefer he was served at work, but I don't know where he works any more.
Thanks for the financial tips, DnJ. I'm meeting with the advisor tomorrow so I'll be sure to keep those in mind. Love the idea of investing time. Creating traditions and rituals and inside jokes that will last for years to come. That's super important to me. When you think back to your own childhood, those are the things that shape who you are. I want that for S2. We do dinner around the table most nights and you should see how much this boy eats! One dinner last week he ate two grilled chicken kabobs, a garden salad, some garlic bread, then two pears and a banana for dessert. He eats more than I do.
Single rather than divorced - I like that distinction. Single sounds like freedom and possibility.
S2 has been talking about families recently. A family is mummy, daddy, and baby. Not in our case, my lad. So I took the opportunity to sit him on my knee and give him a little lesson.
Me: S2, you are such a lucky boy to have two families. You have Mama and S2 in one family, and Dada and S2 in another family. Two families - wow!
He considered this for a moment.
S2: I have two families. Not you, just me!
Me: That's right. You are such a lucky boy.
I bought him a book called Love Makes a Family and we read that together. Then we snuggled.
Me: What do kisses and cuddles mean?
S2: It means I love you! Mama, I love you very, very much.
Me: I love you very, very much.
I figured that was enough of an explanation for a two-year old.
Hello scout
One dinner last week he ate two grilled chicken kabobs, a garden salad, some garlic bread, then two pears and a banana for dessert.
lol. Oh my. Just wait until he’s a teenager.
Your explanation of family was just perfect. You are a great Mom. As well as a tough broad.
Good for you meeting with an advisor. Tomorrow will be very good I think.
I hope Thursday goes ok. I suppose there isn’t much H can do at this point. Still, it will comforting to have that behind you.
Take care.
D
Just heard from my lawyer. Divorce hearing won’t be until December. Groan.
The legal wheels do turn slowly. It’s common for the date to be set pretty far in advance.
Yeah, that's just the soonest available date. If X had signed the joint application paperwork, it could have been done within a month or two. But he didn't, so here we are. It's okay.
Meeting with the financial advisor went well. We are going to update to an aggressive retirement investment strategy and add trauma insurance coverage for S2. Covering all the bases.
Good Morning scout
Sounds like the meeting was productive. Insurance for S2, better investment strategy for retirement, good things are happening.
D
Can I get some advice?
My mother told me I should text X to inform him he'll be served at his home tomorrow morning. The idea made me recoil. I don't want to, but I also don't like the idea that I might be doing something wrong. Am I doing anything wrong? Should I inform him? I really hate this feeling of doubting myself. I told him in an email months ago that I would divorce him so it's not a surprise. He had the opportunity to file a joint application but has ignored the paperwork for two months. I just want this over with. I can't imagine why he'd get upset or cause trouble but now other people are in my head making me anxious and confused. Help!
I’m with you Scout. No need to warn him, in my opinion. You already did in your email. This is just the next step in the process. And so what if he does get upset? This was his doing. If he should be mad at anyone, it should be himself. However...having said that...nothing wrong with warning him either. In other words, I don’t think there is a right or wrong in this situation. Just do what you feel comfortable with and don’t worry about what others are saying. They aren’t you. (((HUGS)))
I wouldn't warn him. If you do, he will make it a point to avoid being available. He's a big boy and should be very much aware that a divorce is coming very quickly. Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, he would not warn you.
Hi scout
No need to give advanced notice. I suspect if he knows, something would come up and he’d be unavailable. Best to just go as planned.
Yes, in better situation a heads up would be nice. This isn’t one of those better situations.
D
Scout ~
Agree with the others.
There's no good way to do it. I felt really cold-hearted when I "surprise" filed (even though we had agreed more than half a year beforehand). I was a nervous wreck. People told me my kids would remember who filed. It's all noise. It's a necessary step in the process.
He still may cause trouble and get angry, but those are his problems (unless they end up impacting you or S2).
Thanks all. I'm not sure if he was served or not. I haven't heard from my L and of course, nothing from X.
We are quite Covid-safe now, so the social calendar is in full steam.
It was my birthday on Friday. I took the day off to get a massage and haircut, then dropped S2 off at my parents' place so I could meet a friend for dinner. We have known each other for ten years and she has been overseas for the last couple of years, so we had a lot to catch up on. I forgot how fun it is to get together with another single girlfriend and talk about boys over a couple of drinks.
My birthday/divorce party went well. I spent the last couple of weeks sprucing up my outdoor space with a firepit, Adirondack chairs, new dining setting, and many strings of of fairy lights. It was a lovely cold evening around the fire playing board games and chatting with old and new friends. We ordered pizza and had drinks until everyone headed home around 11pm.
Unfortunately S2 came down with a fever in the afternoon so I kept running into his room to sponge him down and cuddle him in bed, but he was fine the next morning. It was X's day with him so I went back to bed as soon as S2 left. X was 15 minutes late for pickup and not only did he notify me, he actually apologised! Stranger things have happened...
To round out my birthday weekend, I went on a first date with this new guy. He took out me for coffee and ordered us a dessert grazing platter to celebrate my birthday - pancakes, waffles, fruit, toasted marshmallows with melted dipping chocolate. He was goofy and awkward, kinda nervous, but very sweet, and we chatted about our kids and exchanged numbers. I'm cautiously excited.
Life is good on the other side.
Lots of people can be a little awkward and nervous on a first date. But he was sweet and considerate and isn’t a calorie nazi like my ex - all good things!
One thing that endeared my first post-divorce boyfriend to me was him insisting I eat a bowl of ice cream with him after dinner, even though I warned him I’m a little lactose intolerant and would fart all night. He didn’t care, nor did he care if ice cream might make me a bit plump, he just wanted to share his delight in it with me.
happy belated birthday scout!!
That sounds like a cute first date. you are still young and have so much life ahead of you!! I'm excited for you.
One thing that endeared my first post-divorce boyfriend to me was him insisting I eat a bowl of ice cream with him after dinner, even though I warned him I’m a little lactose intolerant and would fart all night. He didn’t care, nor did he care if ice cream might make me a bit plump, he just wanted to share his delight in it with me.
and this is hilarious!! lol!!
Good Morning scout
Sounds like a very good birthday weekend. Friends, fire, food, and fun.
Also sounded like a pretty good first date. A dessert platter - yummy. And those first date jitters do make us nervous.
D
Died laughing at that ice cream story, kml! Thanks for the birthday wishes, y’all.
X was late without notice to pick up S2 this morning. “He’s a bit late”, I explained as to why he wasn’t here yet. Five minutes later there was a knock on the door. “My dada’s here!” S2 exclaimed. He ran to the door and greeted X with the helpful statement “DADA, YOU'RE LATE!” Silence from X while I tried not to laugh. Even after closing the door I could hear him repeating “Dada, you’re late!” at the top of his lungs while X buckled him into his car seat. I did laugh then. All those times I freaked out over his lateness and now he gets called out by a two-year old. Lol.
LOL
That’s too funny.
The innocent clarity of a child’s view, is what might actually make a change with X’s punctuality.
Called out by a two year old. hee hee
That is hilarious. Your kid is awesome. Happy belated birthday also!! xx
More from the mouth of S2. I dressed him this morning and sent him to play. Two minutes later he comes barrelling back into the room. "Oh my god! I did a wee in my undies." LOL. He is toilet trained so that was random. It was his half birthday a few days ago (2.5) and he's just so funny and clever and cheeky.
In other news, X emailed to say he had a covid test and would be isolating this week so couldn't pick up S2. He then said "I would love to make it up to him" by having him stay overnight on Saturday, to which I agreed. He went out of his way to assure me he would share the test results beforehand and suspend his visits with S2 if it came back positive.
That probably doesn't seem like much, but when expectations are zero, even the bare minimum seems impressive!
I should mention that this is the first time S2 will be sleeping over at X's house. He has had two other sleepovers away from home without me, but they were both at X's sister's house in the care of X's parents. I am confident he will be fine. He and I are both ready for this.
Good Morning scout
S2’s innocence is adorable. I can just picture him running back into the room, aghast at his random accident.
X it seems has really stepped up his game. Isolating, ensure you that he would share the results, and so on. No small thing.
I think a sleepover for S2 is an excellent plan. I bet son is looking forward to it.
Have a great day.
D
Bad news: X is in arrears for child support. Sigh. Expectations back to zero.
Good news: My L received his signed acknowledgement of service for the divorce application.
Other news: I went on a first date with a 25-year old yesterday (fun but a dead end) and a second date with the single dad today. Single dad was much more relaxed and didn’t seem as goofy this time around. More attractive. He came to my neighbourhood, took me to brunch (and paid), then we walked around the nearby seaside village for a while. We talked a lot and it was easy, fun, and respectful. He told me his hand was cold and asked to hold mine. That’s the most action I’ve had in 14 months and even that felt like too much. LOL. I made it clear that things need to go slow for me to feel comfortable. We shall see how things develop. How on earth do people get comfortable enough to sleep with a virtual stranger on the third date? I think I have a lot of barriers around physical intimacy that I need to work through.
He told me his hand was cold and asked to hold mine. That’s the most action I’ve had in 14 months and even that felt like too much. LOL. I made it clear that things need to go slow for me to feel comfortable. We shall see how things develop. How on earth do people get comfortable enough to sleep with a virtual stranger on the third date? I think I have a lot of barriers around physical intimacy that I need to work through.
Yup.
I've said for YEARS I'm numb from the neck down.
He told me his hand was cold and asked to hold mine. That’s the most action I’ve had in 14 months and even that felt like too much. LOL. I made it clear that things need to go slow for me to feel comfortable. We shall see how things develop. How on earth do people get comfortable enough to sleep with a virtual stranger on the third date? I think I have a lot of barriers around physical intimacy that I need to work through.
Awww. The hand holding sounds sweet. Take you time, time is on your side. I sometimes try to picture imaginary dates and I also have exactly the same feeling- how the hell do you know the man is not a serial killer behind doors?? Lol. Im not sure if it’s trust issues from experience with H or I’ve been out of the game for too long.
Yeah I think third date is kinda stupid - honestly, how much do you usually know about someone by a third date? It should happen whenever you feel like you’re comfortable and attracted enough and that can be very different for different people at different times. It also depends on how vulnerable you are to getting over-attaches or hurt if you sleep with someone and it doesn’t work out (I’m not at All bothered by that so have been maybe a bit looser than others would be comfortable with).
I hope you choose carefully because I want you to have a positive experience with a man who makes you feel like a goddess and shows you what truly caring sex looks like. I imagine it will be a revelation after your ex.
Speaking if which - what’s his explanation for being late on child support? Can you get it changed to automatic deposit?
Well, T-minus two hours until the sleepover and X has cancelled due to not having his covid test result back. It makes sense, I guess, but I wish I hadn't told S2 about it. He was really excited.
Good Morning scout
It’s unfortunate H’s test results aren’t available yet. Postponing the sleepover is the right thing to do.
I know parents who don’t tell their kids plans until the day of, or just before. And for more than just a sleepover; a 3 week trip to Disneyland.
I believe in, and follow, a different philosophy. I let my kids know upcoming plans and events. It’s good for them to be excited and plan as well. And for those times when plans fall through, to learn disappointment and how to handle it.
I always imagined how a surprise 3 week vacation would go over. Kids have lives, friends, and plans which just get thrown aside.
I do understand your desire to protect son. And you are doing good. Don’t worry when fate puts forth an opportunity, an unintentional lesson we aren’t seeking. They really don’t come around all that often.
D
Good point. I do agree with the value of the lesson. However I didn’t mention the cancellation to S2 and he didn’t ask about it, so the lesson wasn’t needed in the end. It’s a holiday long weekend here so I admit to questioning the veracity of the whole thing - maybe X had more exciting plans. I had to cancel my own plans and forgo an admittedly much-needed day off from parenting. But that’s not S2’s fault, so it’s okay. We are having fun together. Thanks for the perspective, D.
I'm now quite certain he lied about having a covid test in order to get out of his scheduled visit. He emailed this morning saying he "just got his [negative] test result back" so he is able to see S2 this afternoon. Test results in our area are texted back within 24-48 hours and he is saying it took 6 days. That, combined with the fact it was a holiday long weekend, makes the odds of untruth pretty high. He also made no mention of rescheduling the sleepover or making up the missed visit. I do not understand the need to lie - he could have just asked to switch weekends if he had plans for this one.
I also need to address the child support in arrears. I've drafted an email but feel quite nervous about sending it, even though it's completely justified and necessary. I decided to give him the chance to fix it before defaulting to the child support agency and having them collect the payments. We have a private arrangement where the agency determines the amount and he does a direct debit. They recently revised the amount and he hasn't updated his payments accordingly. It's probably a good idea for me to change the arrangement and have them handle everything on my behalf. I do not trust X to do the right thing and chasing him for money is pretty low on my list of fun things to do.
Just to clarify, I'm not going to address the cancellation or the lie, at all. I didn't even bother responding to the cancellation email or today's email. Moving on with my life.
scout ~
New situations to handle seem to come up almost every day, right?
To limit the impact to my well-being, I've tried to make decisions according to a simple rule: "Do I need to stand up for myself here, and if so, how can I limit the discord?"
When I think about limiting discord, I'm not trying to avoid upsetting my X. That is unavoidable - not within my control. I do try to consider the reasonable options at my disposal to achieve my end goal.
Regarding the money issue, I wonder if you can send your X a message and say (paraphrasing): "FYI I changed the arrangement with the agency so they will handle future payment issues." Then you can change it, you don't have to chase him for money, but you also notified him of the change.
I like how you handled the cancellation and lie.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to give advice. I'm still learning how to navigate a toxic X relationship while trying to coparent, and trying to figure out what works, including learning from others.
Thanks U. It’s nice to hear from someone in a similar spot with a similar outlook. Not trying to save the M, just navigating the business side of the R for the sake of the children. I like your distinction between limiting discord vs upsetting the X. It is hard to get out of that mindset when you have been the peacemaker in your old dynamic.
I emailed with a short message informing of the payment in arrears and that I’d be changing the arrangement. No response, but the next payment was the correct amount. The outstanding amount hasn’t been paid, though, which I’ll let the agency handle from here.
He then emailed requesting another adhoc sleepover to make up for the missed visit two weeks ago. The time has definitely passed for that, I think. It doesn’t suit me or S2, and I don’t want to set a precedent of changing the parenting plan to suit X. So that one is a no. He also asked to extend his Father’s Day visit to include an overnight sleepover, which I am happy to do for the special occasion. (Leaving my opinion of X as a father out of it and thinking purely of S2).
If he wants to modify the plan to include sleepovers, I am happy to return to negotiations for that. Otherwise, I’d prefer to stick to the current plan. That was my L’s advice and I think it’s fair and better for S2 to have that stability.
Please help me. X just emailed 15 minutes before scheduled dropoff to say he broke down an hour and a half away, he is out of reception, that he will be back late, and is keeping S2 overnight. My parenting plan isn't legally enforceable. I'm really worried. I responded asking for the location so I can pick S2 up and that S2 isn't prepared for an overnight stay. X isn't responding to my call, text or email. What do I do???
I'm just posting to get this out as I have little recourse until I speak with my lawyer. I don't have court orders, only a verbal agreement. More fool me.
X had scheduled visitation today (Sunday) from 8am-5pm. At 4:45pm, I get an email saying that his brand new car is broken down 1 1/2 hours away and that he is keeping S2 overnight with him because "he has no other options".
Red flags immediately went up. If he intended to make the dropoff time, he would have left wherever he was two hours ago, and been broken down much closer to home. If he knew he wasn't going to make the dropoff time, he would have let me know hours ago when it became apparent.
I immediately responded in writing to say please let me know the location and I will pick up S2 so he's not stranded. I added that S2 was not prepared for a sleepover so he needed to be brought home tonight. I called X twice without response. I texted him to please call me back to arrange pickup and pointed out that I had not sent any supplies for an overnight sleepover.
S2 has never spent an overnight with his father and has only had three sleepovers away from home in his life. His visitation time is minimal, a couple hours a week and every second Sunday.
I freaked out for a bit until X emailed to say he had arranged accommodation "somewhere" and had all the things S2 needed. I responded that I needed to know where S2 was staying for the night and when he would be returned.
Another red flag - why would he have overnight supplies if he intended to return him at 5pm as scheduled?
X responded saying he was "staying near X town" and that S2 would either be returned first thing tomorrow (Monday) or dropped at daycare - no firm commitment despite me having to work tomorrow. So that leaves me with my hands tied, not knowing where S2 is, not having seen or spoken to him, not knowing what overnight care he's receiving, not knowing when or where he'll be returned.
I believe X did this because I refused to grant him an adhoc overnight visit this weekend. I'm not unreasonable at all - I always accommodate his cancellations and switches. But recently my lawyer advised me not to agree to any adhoc changes after X arranged then cancelled that sleepover at the last minute. The instability is not good for S2.
I know in my bones that he planned this weekend all along and made up this excuse to keep him overnight. I told him no and he didn't like that answer, so he did it anyway. Abusive men use children as pawns to hurt their mothers. I don't believe S2 is in real danger, but the thought of him being confused or scared in some random motel with a man he is not overly bonded with (and who knows who else is staying there, for that matter?) makes me feel sick.
Legally I can withhold S2 until a court order is filed to ensure that future breaches have consequences. It's fathers day this weekend and I've already agreed to switch my weekend and extend his time to include overnight. I struggle with feeling like a bad person for rescinding this offer, but I do not trust X to follow the agreement any more.
I feel so powerless and defeated.
Hello scout
I’m sorry, you must be worried.
X texted 15minutes before drop off and he is 90 minutes away broken down. He has been messing with the payments as well. Looks like X is playing some kind of game.
I realize this forum has a lag in communication. Have you heard from X yet? It’s been 5 hours since you posted, if he hasn’t got a hold of you by now, call the police. It’s ok to have a car breakdown, and I am sure within 5 hours he could’ve found a phone. It’s not ok to radio silent regarding S2.
Do you have his address yet? If not, then demand it. Period. No more visits until he provides it. This situation illustrates the need for him disclosing that information. You say this plan isn’t legally enforceable, which part? I think you need to get the arrangement hammered down and signed by both parties. I suspect X has part time custody and he so far hasn’t exercised or wanted that.
If he is going to start playing games, make the drop off and pick up at a third party location - like a police station, there are even agencies that provide this service. This ensures his compliance, punctuality, and provides witnesses to his (and your) behaviour and history. I know that would be a royal pain in the ___, however it may be needed. I know far too many situations that have to use that.
I do hope X has contacted you by now and S2 is back home.
By the way, texts are sent differently than phone calls, and do get through at times when a call cannot.
D
Hello scout
We posted at the same time.
It appears S2 will be safe for the night. X is being an @ss. I am p!ssed off and probably a little tending towards irrational emotionally highjacked right now. How dare he!!
Ok, that’s not helpful. Sorry.
When you get S2 back that’s it. No more visits. X lied. And then has some vague plan of getting S2 back to you. Speak to your lawyer and get this arrangement nailed down. Use a third party. X’s behaviour has consequences; he has lost the privilege of a cordial drop off and pick up. Trust is a fleeting thing. He has lots of work to do to regain your’s again. (Dang, what a goof that guy is)
Unfortunately, it is probably going to need to be letter of the law for a while. No last minute alterations for visiting. He can give up his time, but doesn’t get it back. Playing hardball is appropriate at times. I think (or maybe feel right now) that this is one of those times.
D
Gosh scout, I’m so sorry you went through that. I was going to suggest calling the police as well.
It is horrible that your X is using your son to get to you. I hope your son was not too frightened.
Thank you both. It's 8am Monday now and I haven't heard anything from X about S2's return yet. I'm supposed to work today, damn it. I've contacted the daycare to inform them of the situation and they are going to call me immediately if he is dropped off there.
The police cannot get involved in child custody disputes unless there's an emergency recovery order from the court. Due to the lax nature of the current arrangement, X has not broken any laws by withholding S2, so I can't get a recovery order.
The swiftest and strongest message I can send will be to prevent future access until a court order is in place to ensure I have legal recourse if he withholds him again. I'm scared of his response, but this is a serious breach and he cannot be led to think this is acceptable in any way.
X finally responded to my calls, texts and messages at 11am. He was calling from the car and OW was there too.
Me: Hello, where is S2?
X: We are leaving X town so we're 90 minutes away.
Me: Why didn't you let me know earlier what your plan was?
X: Well, sh!t happens and I handled it.
Me: You have a legal responsibility to let me know where S2 is when you take him without my permission.
X: Oh really? You have a legal responsibility to let me see my son but you don't do that, do you?
Me: When have I ever prevented you from seeing him?
X: This weekend. You are even more controlling now than you were when we were in a relationship.
Me: I have only refused adhoc changes when we already have plans.
X: *stutters* Well, well, you don't tell me every time S2 sleeps away from home!
Me: He hasn't ever slept away from home.
X: *scoffs* You're saying he never slept at your parents' place?
Me: No, he hasn't. It's not in his best interest to spend overnights away from home at this age.
X: See, you're just saying that to keep him away from me.
Me: S2 can start spending overnights with you, but it needs to be a transition over time, ands I want it done through formal, legal channels with a binding agreement. That is how divorce works.
X: I've tried but you wouldn't let me!
Me: I was in the middle of negotiating and you stopped responding. How is it my fault if you stopped participating in the process?
X: You wouldn't even give me one overnight a week!
Me: I offered to start with a dinner and a monthly overnight and increase over time.
X: That's not what I wanted!
Me: You are not above the rules. It's about what's best for S2.
X: You don't even speak to me at the front door! You never tell me when he's sick! You antagonise me with balloons! (LOL)
Me: We are not friends, what do we have to speak about? I'll tell you if he is sick enough to require medical attention, not for every sniffle and cough.
X: You're saying he hasn't been to the doctor in a year?
Me: No, he hasn't.
X: What about S2? I always encourage him to say goodbye to you at the front door and you never do!
Me: The only thing I want to speak to you about is childcare arrangements, and I want it done in writing to prevent abuse.
X: Are you recording this call?
Me: No.
X: Why are you acting like this? You put those balloons on the garage to make me angry! (he seemed really bothered by the balloons I put up for my divorce party which spelled 'happily ever after')
Me: Nothing I do has anything to do with you.
X: You screamed at me in the street saying I was a cheater!
Me: I didn't scream. I confronted you when I found out. That was one occasion and I haven't spoken to you in person since. I don't care any more.
X: You've been spreading stories about me, I've never done anything to you!
Me: I tell people things that have actually occurred. If you didn't want to be called a cheater, you shouldn't have cheated.
X: *sputters*
Me: I'd appreciate it if you stopped telling people that I prevent you from seeing S2 because I have always been accommodating of any requests unless I have prior plans.
X: *sarcastic laughter*
Me: It's all documented via email so I'd be happy to provide receipts.
X: Well, you never respond to my emails! Or my texts!
Me: If you need to discuss childcare, I respond. I don't want unnecessary contact with you because you are verbally abusive.
X: Oh, and you screaming that I'm a cheater isn't abusive?
Me: Telling the truth is not abusive. I didn't scream. You had an affair and abandoned your family. Those are facts.
X: You've got a tone and an attitude that I don't like. I guess we'll handle this in court.
Me: That's what I've been trying to do, but you stopped participating in the process. I agreed to increased time in February and you stopped responding.
X: *sputters*
Me: It's an ongoing negotiation, not all or nothing.
X: I want everything laid out - shared care, holidays, schooling.
Me: Yes, that's what I want. You are the one preventing this from happening. Pulling a stunt like this is not the way to come to a mutual agreement.
X: I have to take him otherwise you'd never let me see him!
Me: What you have done is not acceptable and there will be consequences.
X: Oh yeah, you're threatening me now?
Me: You are not above the rules. This is how the legal process works.
X: Well, I don't want to have this conversation anymore.
Me: Just curious. Did you have any thought for how worried I might be overnight?
X: Do you have any thought for how unfair it is that I can't see my son?
Me: Okay, I'm done. What time will S2 be back?
X: Are you not capable of looking up X town on Google Maps and figuring that out yourself?
Me: It is your responsibility to communicate. If the plan changes, you are responsible for informing me. You have a history of being unreliable and it's not my job to chase you up. Do the right thing.
X: No, YOU do the right thing.
Me: *shaking my head at this nonsense*
X: I will be back at 12:05pm. *sarcastically* Do I need to call you if I am one minute late?
Me: Now you're taking the piss. Yes, you do need to inform me if you're late. That is common courtesy.
At this point my lawyer called me so I said I had to go.
Did I need to engage in that conversation? No. But I don't regret it.
Good Morning scout
I am glad you are speaking to your lawyer. Best see how you can get this resolved; you don’t need X pulling stunts like this.
His comments about does he needs to call if one minute late, he is pushing and rebelling. And yes, he does need to call if he is late. So be on time or a bit early. Sheesh, he is an emotional teenager, thrashing about. He’s not going to like the consequences, of his actions.
Document, document, document.
D
Scout ~ I agree with DnJ's advice to document everything that happens. I am so glad I documented things in my situation.
I don't recall the details of where you are in the process, or how the law works where you live, but I hope your L has good advice for how to proceed. When I pushed things forward so that we had a legally enforceable temporary parenting plan (even without the timeshare I preferred), a lot of the nonsense stopped.
Being one minute late is one thing but from a legal perspective is inconsequential. Keeping S2 overnight and making up a story about it is a serious breach of trust, and would have serious legal consequences if it violated your parenting agreement. Document everything that happens, but especially highlight the egregious things. The first item is an example of discourtesy, the second an example of extremely poor co-parenting and untrustworthiness.
High-conflict D is awful. Hang in there, focus on what's important, and don't get baited into following cheeseless tunnels.
Scout,
OMG. I'm so sorry this happened. What a f__kwit. The whole thing is total BS and it is absolutely not okay to use a two year old child like that. And the poor kid was sitting in the car listening to him say these things to you, too.
I'm sure your L will have good advice for you, but to me there is a pretty slippery slope between this behavior and kidnapping. The things he said to you-- basically you wouldn't give me what I wanted-- overnights with S2-- so I'll just take them-- is terrifying to me. I think if you're able to keep S2 in your custody and not let him be with his dad alone until you have a legally enforceable arrangement, I'd do that. He lied to you about an important thing involving your child and where he was. What stops him from lying again? What's the next step for him in "getting what he deserves"? Scary.
Best case scenario, this is what it takes to move the process forward in ironing out a legally enforceable plan. Stay strong. You're a great mom.
And I know you know this already but it bears repeating... you are so. much. better. off. without this a$$hole as your H. What a sad and sorry jerk. I am delighted by your balloons and pettily glad they bothered him so much. Even though you're above that, I'm not. bahahahaha.
Thanks guys. It has been a horrible 36 hours and I am completely exhausted from the whole ordeal. Lying in my bed Sunday night not knowing where my little boy was... it was the dark night of the soul.
Before I got off the phone with X, I warned him not to start anything at the front door when dropping off S2, so that all went smoothly. I could have cried with relief once I got him inside the house. We had a big cuddle and he kept repeating "Mama's coming tomorrow", which must have been what X was telling him, which means S2 was asking for me. I reassured him that I was right here and we would be together all day. I was in no state to focus on work.
The adventure (I have been calling it 'his adventure with dad' to make light of it in his mind) doesn't seem to have affected him in a negative way. He has a busted lip which seems to have occurred during a jetski accident
No explanation from X, of course, but S2 said "dad took me on the jetski and he was going too fast and I hit my head". His front tooth seems to have gone through the lip. I'm pretty irate about that. He also has the worst nappy rash I've ever seen, it looks like a burn. He only wears nappies overnight now and very rarely has a slight rash, so I don't know how this huge, glowing, red rash happened. I'm taking him to the doctor today to document and assess the injuries.
He did seem a bit keyed up at bedtime last night, so I let him sleep in my bed. He got upset whenever I turned the light off, saying "I can't see you!" After an hour of tossing and turning and kicking me in the back, I asked him if he would like to go back to his bed. He cried "noooo". So of course I kept him with me and cuddled him to sleep, although I didn't have a very restful sleep myself. The important thing is that he felt safe.
Yesterday morning while trying to get hold of X and find out where he was and when S2 would be returned, my mother contacted X's mother to see if she had heard from him. Apparently she was concerned about S2, but the conversation got tense when she started echoing X's story that he's being denied access. She even said that X must have been so fed up by me withholding S2 that he just took him. As if that justifies kidnapping! My mother quickly pointed out that X had stopped participating in custody negotiations in February. Ex-MIL stuttered a bit (must run in the family) and said she didn't know anything about that. So clearly, X is feeding them a bunch of lies about me. I knew that was the case, but it still hurt to hear it directly.
I spoke with my L yesterday and she agreed it was a serious breach and I am justified in withholding S2 until a court order is in place. It's going to cause a big drama as it's Father's Day this weekend and I'd previously agreed that X could take S2 overnight. Obviously I am no longer making that offer, but I'm worried that if I do let him take S2 just for that day, he won't return him again. My L is drafting a letter outlining the consequences of future breaches so that I don't have to communicate with X directly.
I've also booked in to see my psychologist soon. I just can't believe this has happened. I reached out to my family and a few friends who were all horrified and rallied around me on Sunday/Monday, offering company and support. Posting here helps me solidify that what X did is unacceptable. The self-doubt created by years of emotional abuse is still there beneath the surface. I always think 'is there anything I could have done better' or 'have I done something to cause this'. Should I have agreed to the custody schedule he demanded in February, am I being unfair, am I withholding? S2's safety and wellbeing has always been my guiding star. I look at how content and secure and understanding he is, even after an ordeal like this, and I know I have made the right choice. But the doubt lingers.
Hello scout
It completely normal to have doubts.
I spoke with my L yesterday and she agreed it was a serious breach and I am justified in withholding S2 until a court order is in place.
Look at what your lawyer said.
What X did is a serious breach. Let him have his consequences. He deserves them. No doubt about it.
D
Here's a little levity about the whole ordeal... S2 told me that OW broke X's jetski. LMAO.
hahahaha!!!! That's great!
I hope he was on speakerphone during that conversation you had so OW could hear it all.
I'm going to inject one thought here. Everybody is encouraging you to fight him and I agree it is incredibly annoying what he did. BUT - I also feel like the more you fight him, the more you play into his hands. He'll do anything to get a rise out of you. Getting into a court based battle about this may just be playing into his hands.
I know you didn't want S2 to have overnights with him but it happened and nothing terrible came of it. In fact having to reassure S2 constantly that he was going to see you tomorrow was probably very annoying. I think your ex's main interest in having the overnights right now is precisely because he knows you don't want him to. I bet if you dropped the rope and told him he needed to take him every Saturday night he'd start coming up with excuses why he couldn't pretty soon.
(I love the fact that he kept coming back to the balloons btw! Wonder what OW thought of him being so bothered by that lol.)
(Maybe the balloons should have read "Free At Last!)
Hi Scout,
Just another reassurance that what he did was totally unacceptable. Good to get the doctor's documentation of his injuries, whether it is necessary for legal reasons in the future or not. You have been making decisions in S2's best interest, nothing more. It is unfortunate for your XH that those decision aren't matching up with exactly what he wants, but he lost the privilege of being considered in an equal or close-second position when he cheated and left. Spouses get their desires taken into consideration. A$$hole exes don't. Too bad, so sad.
Particularly when he CLEARLY planned out this weekend, jet skiing and 2 hour drive. This was not a car breakdown situation. Linked with the COVID test results lie from the previous weekend, this is just pretty f-ed up. So, please take all the reinforcement you need to tell that self-doubt to go away.
I totally get what kml is saying. That being said-- and I don't disagree-- I guess my question is who cares if you're playing into his hands? What does a court battle do for him? Maybe it feeds his narrative of you being unreasonable or whatever... but does that matter to you? Who cares what his motivation is for wanting overnights or not? I would try to think dispassionately about all of this, when you can, to really weigh out if you're doing this to protect yourself and your son or if any of this is driven by anger. It could be that by fueling his narrative and getting into it over this, you will suffer emotionally and it is better just to let it go (as long as you think S2 is safe, which honestly is a question mark for me with jetskis and two year olds and all. Did he wear a life vest?). If you'll be lying awake at night every time he has S2 wondering if he is going to bring him home or not, or S2 continues to be as traumatized as he seemed to be after being with him, then I'd pull out all the stops.
In the long term, of course, it is probably in S2's best interest to have a positive and fulfilling relationship with his father, as much as that might be possible with someone with NPD. At some point you'll have to figure out how you can help to facilitate that, if possible. How terrible would it be to offer your ex a chance to see S2 on Father's Day with you present?
Also - re: the diaper rash. It's possible he was neglectful and didn't change it. But be careful about assumptions. My son used to get wicked diaper rash anytime he drank orange juice. It's possible that they gave S2 something that didn't agree with him. You might try inquiring - nicely, by email so it's documented - about the diaper rash. Attach pictures and just ask "Hey, S2 came home with this wicked diaper rash (see attached photos). Did you perhaps feed him something different or use something different on his bottom that he might be reacting to? I'd like to make sure I avoid that thing in the future whatever it was." That way you're not accusing him, but it's documented that he had the rash and that you have the photos. Puts him on notice to be more careful without putting him into defensive mode (or at least giving you plausible deniability if he does get defensive).
Really, I think if you ask him to take S2 every Saturday night he'll refuse because it will dawn on him that this is date night - and who might you be going out with? A little bit of aikido - use his own weight to throw him.
I have so much I want to say about all of the events you have endured these past few days, Scout, but I only have a moment and want to echo the others on the aikido maneuver of letting H have S2 every Sat night.
Just today, I had a first hand experience of this actually working (in my favor!). It had to do with Covid homeschooling the children, where it would happen and who would be in charge. I have been fretting about this for weeks and weeks, talking to my IC about it etc etc. But all along I have been amicable and seemed interested in splitting things equally etc (NOT what I want). Well this morning we had the big final talk about how it was all going to break down (school starts tomorrow) and he suggested I take charge and that it happens consistently in my home and that I let him know when I need help. YES!
Some extended time with the children while I was out of town, combined with an onslaught of teacher emails (x 4 kids) and the logistical nightmare of it all Made him realize it was too much for him. And I didn’t even have to say a thing.
Also, our child custody timing has also turned out the same: I am ending up with more and more time as the weeks go by. Because he doesn’t have to fight me for the time, it becomes less precious.
More later, but you’ve got this!!
I really appreciate all of your thoughts. While it would ease my mind to refuse access, I basically came to the same conclusion as kml that I must play the long game here and think strategically when dealing with this type of personality.
I haven’t spoken further to X since Monday morning. His Tuesday daycare pickup and visitation occurred without issue. In fact, S2 was returned 10 minutes early. I believe X has realised how thin the ice beneath his feet is now, so he’ll toe the line until he feels more secure again. Once he realised that my family, his family, and the police got involved, it must have clicked that what he did was a step too far. So that calms my fears somewhat.
In the interim, I’m moving swiftly to get consent on a new parenting plan. I’ve offered two Saturday overnights a month commencing immediately and increased weekday time. I’ve also outlined how the time will increase further over the next two years, eventually giving him weekly overnights and every other full weekend. Holidays, birthdays, changeovers, communication— it’s all in there and all very fair. I want it locked down as soon as possible.
I also plan to move ahead with the Father’s Day visit this weekend as planned as long as he provides the physical address of the overnight visit and emergency contact information if he can’t be reached. I will make it very clear that if S2 is not back in my care at the scheduled time, I will not agree to any further visitation until a court order is in place. I’ll also mention the nappy rash and let him know what I usually do to prevent it.
I just want to reiterate that I offered for X to start taking S2 overnight back in February. He threw a fit because it wasn’t the amount of time he wanted and then stopped negotiating completely. S2 has comes miles in his development since then and I don’t believe he will be greatly affected by the differences in my parenting vs X’s ‘parenting’. Hopefully X will improve with time. Kml is right— S2 was not affected by the overnight visit and he understands what is going on.
Once again, I’m required to be the only reasonable adult in this situation and spoonfeed X since he seems completely unable to resolve this in a productive way for S2’s sake. If he feels like he has won, my life is easier. As long my peace doesn’t come at S2’s expense, I can handle pretty much anything this personality disordered man throws at me. At first I thought the only way to win was to not play. Now, I’m learning how to play the game.
Scout -- SO sorry to read this happened.
I want to say very clearly to not make the mistakes I made. You have seen what happened when you go my route. I care about you and say this with absolute love and want to give you courage. (And I am in a state of total terror and panic as I have court tomorrow, so I get it.)
You should refuse access until a custody agreement is in place. The man is dangerous and your child was traumatized. A two year old isn't "fine" after that -- he is going into defense mode. I don't remember about five years of my childhood -- defense mechanisms are how a child gets through that, but that doesn't make it "fine." You would never let a babysitter take your child for even five minutes who did that. Stop caring what anyone thinks. Your mother in law has eyes and ears. She can choose not to see the truth and there is nothing you can do. My mother in law won't speak to me though I tried to keep our bridges open and she hasn't seen my son, who she adores, in two years. (Watch the news any day to consider how easy it is to have truth in front of you and see it with some other eyes.) You can write them a short kind letter explaining what happened and offering for them to come over to your backyard for a picnic with him, etc.
You should tell H that because he took S overnight without agreement, busted his lip, document the severe emotional distress, diaper rash, etc., you can no longer allow visits without a custody agreement in place, and that there will need to be supervised visits for now. Go to your local domestic abuse counseling center and get the names of social workers who can supervise visits. Get one involved. I do not think overnights are okay based on what you said but I understand why you feel you have to allow them.
When people told me things like that years ago, I would get very upset that they didn't understand my faith and stop coming to the boards. Now I understand that the best way to stand would have been to hold my H to the same standards to which I would hold any man/person. Let him take you to court to argue that after everything you wrote above that he needs full unsupervised access. A judge that punishes you for that? That's cause for an appeal.
Be kind, forgive him daily, hourly. But put very very strict boundaries in place. Protect your son until your H shows that he can do it without supervision.
I have to disagree Gerda. Nothing bad happened to S2 that couldn't have happened with any normal dad (let's face it, father's are usually the risk takers with kids anyway). And rather than get into a huge legal fight and have her ex continue to draw her in, giving him a reasonable custody schedule (which any judge would have given him anyway, btw) and then watching him come up with excuses not to take it is the way to go. He will probably take S2 LESS this way anyway. When dealing with someone who is personality disordered like this, you have to think strategically and pick your battles.
And he should agree to giving her the address now that he's seen how many people got involved.
Scout, just put it all in emails so you have copies of his responses should you ever need them in court, Then keep track of how many times he declines his custody days. Never say anything in writing that you wouldn't want to have show up in court.
Your ex is seething that you are moving on with your life and he still wants to think of you waiting patiently for him at home. They almost all do. He's trying to use the custody stuff to provoke a response from you because he's not getting satisfaction in any other way. In aikido, you use the body weight and momentum of the other person to throw them 0 kinda like the ultimate dropping the rope in a game of tug-of-war. This is gonna leave him befuddled.
(Funny story from my own divorce after 24 years: when my ex finally left, it was really a three strikes and you're out situation. After a couple of months I felt I had done everything possible to save my marriage over the previous ten years since his last affair, and that there was no way I would ever trust him again, so I let go. I soon after started dating a lovely man who lived 11 hours away, and would go visit him one long weekend a month. He was terribly sexy and I had brought home one of his t-shirts which had his lovely body scent all over it. I slept with it under my pillow. He was a very tall man, 6'6", so the shirt was quite large.
My ex was pushing to sell the house so one of those weekends that I was gone to visit the boyfriend he was at the house getting it ready to sell. I had left my bed unmade so he made it. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when he discovered this very tall man's t-shirt under my pillow.
)
Hey scout ~
I also agree with what kml is saying in the first couple paragraphs.
What your X did (taking S2 overnight w/o your consent) was wrong. I was frustrated with my X's control of the kids the past year, but I never would have taken that step. I think you are absolutely doing the right thing to make a reasonable offer of a step-up plan, largely because it will contain all the extra language that makes things legally enforceable. The courts want both parents to play an active role in childrens' lives -- of course while being very seriously concerned about the child's well-being and the fitness of the parents.
What I have to say next is more speaking in generalities, and not specifically about your situation. In these high-conflict custody situations, both sides start vilifying the other person. War ensues, L's get paid a lot of money, the kids and parents suffer emotionally and financially, and, in the end, you end up with a custody plan similar to what you are offering right now anyways, for instance.
In my (completely different from your) situation, I felt like my X was withholding access, coaching the children, in it for the money, using double standards, etc. I think she was not comfortable with me having more access to the kids, or she wanted extra control over the process that was not reasonable. I felt that every step of the way I was doing my best to de-escalate the situation while simultaneously asserting what I thought was a reasonable solution. It didn't really work in my situation... we didn't go all the way to the expensive trial but we got really really close.
I can see you are really hurt. Your X is driving around with OW, parading her in front of your face, taking S2 overnight and lying about the reasons. I would be irate. I don't think it matters if he has a personality disorder or is just upset about the D -- he is very very difficult to work with right now. He is tossing bait around and hoping you bite so you are drawn into conflict. The conflict feeds his impression of you, it helps justify what he is doing, he thrives on viewing you as controlling, then he can justify his actions to himself without any guilt.
I guess what I'm suggesting is that you focus on minimizing the conflict and keep it business-like. You are clearly a strong and emotionally aware person and the more mature parent by leaps and bounds. But I see that, at times, your X baits you into little arguments and tiffs. As much as your blood boils, he's not listening to what you say back to him anyways, and he's just using it to further the conflict. I don't view it as being the bigger person and walking away, it's about focusing on the end game -- getting to a strictly business co-parenting relationship while minimizing the emotional energy, money, and time you have to burn to get there.
I'm not suggesting he's off the hook or anything. Control what you can and try to ignore the bait (if you can) or use your L as needed.
Your X is looking for fuel to stoke his fire to justify his actions. Starve him of his fuel supply (the best you can).
Hang in there. You are a strong parent and you'll get through this.
Ok now I’m thinking of what other kinds of balloon signs you could put up in the future to annoy him?
Yes, I’m bad.
Love the conflicting viewpoints here...
unchien: "Don't do anything to stir the pot"
kml: "Let's antagonise him with balloon signs!"
It seems he'll be antagonised by anything I do, so balloon signs are not necessary.
There was a small dispute over the return/non-return of S2's belongings at dropoff yesterday. I made what I thought was a reasonable request. He sneered and got all dark eyed and called me petty. I said "I'm sorry you feel that way" and he gave a big, loud, fake, sarcastic, nasty laugh as he walked away. I felt very hopeless and hollow inside.
S2 seems to have had a good time with his dad for father's day for which I am glad. I'm hoping X will agree to the increased overnight time I have offered to commence immediately. One day, this will all be a bad memory instead of current pain. I'm realising that nothing goes by faster than your kid's childhood.
I'm glad your son appears to have had a good time w/his dad on Father's Day. Children grow up so fast and you don't realize just how fast until they are no longer little babies, but teens. I hope that in time, your h will wake up and realize what he's missing and want to spend more time w/your son and also come to realize what he's lost along the way, i.e., a home, a wife and a family.
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Scout's QLC Journey #6