Thread #1:
6 Months of MLC. Quick recap: H BD in June 2019, started DBing a couple weeks after that. M 10 years, T 16. Still roommates. No apparent OW, but who knows.
Taking stock: It's been a month of friendlier, slightly more mature H. I haven't seen the full-on alien/teenage H lately—the guy who kept himself so busy at bars, concerts, etc. night after night, barely sleeping, but I know he might be back. I can only imagine whether H is beginning to look inward in his IC sessions. I know he is still spending most of his time with his new friends over old ones; he is in the rosy, uncomplicated stage of friendship with them, and they only know him as he presents himself now.
I left off my last thread wondering what it would be like to initiate some kind of intimacy with him while realizing that seems anti-DB. I'm feeling more in touch with the woman I was when we dated, and I've been thinking about the possibility as both a big step for me—after a SSM, I'm feeling more confident in myself, more in touch with desire, and I feel more than ever that we could have a different kind of R as far as that is concerned. The good thing about this post-BD time is that it has given me the opportunity to focus on myself and my patterns. I am no longer apt to act immediately on my emotions or to get defensive, and I'm learning about setting boundaries. I feel like I'm an evolved and evolving version of my older self. A small consolation: I have learned a lot about myself and am still learning; I can see how far I've come in making the changes in myself I've wanted to make. I felt stuck before, but not so much anymore.
Detachment, always a work in progress. Maybe my reaching a new level of detachment and acceptance mentally was in part what prompted H's increased communication this month. Maybe it had nothing to do with it.
I know I still have anxiety about why he hasn't filed yet when he said he was going to again in November. I am trying to take DnJ's advice to not solve problems en route, to not gather dread or hope surrounding filing. I tell myself it's just as likely that is a step, if he takes it, that he will need along his journey, that it is a step that might very well be necessary to open up the possibility of future reconciliation, rather than a step that would lessen that possibility.
As I have felt more in touch with the confident woman I used to be, I've had more moments of just believing this will all work out between us in the end—that this is not the end of us, that H will travel his path on his own time, and there will be much groundwork laid for a healthier, open, more fulfilling new marriage. I don't know how to describe it—it doesn't feel like I'm hoping in those moments—it feels like a peaceful
knowing.
Oh, my—I forgot I wanted to throw out a question, too. One of the results of a more open H is that he shared with me the date of his mom's last day of work, which is also her birthday. Should I text her a simple Happy Bday/Happy retirement? I feel it's the kind thing to do. I know she's been looking forward to retiring for a long time. But I don't want to start a convo with her.
I thought I had a good relationship with her, but after BD, she's never really communicated with me about what's going on. She did send a birthday text to me. She also once sent me a text that, to me, suggested she hopes I'm moving on, which really got to me. I expected her to support me in fighting for our M, but it's true that I don't know how she really feels about BD or what H has told her. I've been really hurt by her lack of support.
I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?
Hey Cardinal,
I think I must have responded to your last post on your last thread while you were setting up this one-- just wanted to be sure you caught it over there at the very end.
As I have felt more in touch with the confident woman I used to be, I've had more moments of just believing this will all work out between us in the end—that this is not the end of us, that H will travel his path on his own time, and there will be much groundwork laid for a healthier, open, more fulfilling new marriage. I don't know how to describe it—it doesn't feel like I'm hoping in those moments—it feels like a peaceful knowing.
I kind of feel like this too. But I'm trying to equally focus on being OK with that NOT happening and moving on without him. It is hard to hold both in your head.
I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?
Go ahead and text her. If you feel it is the right thing to do, do it. It is kind and thoughtful. Don't worry about what she does or doesn't respond. What is the worst that can happen? She says something like she did last time? OK, so what? Maybe she hopes you're moving on because she cares about you and is embarrassed her son is being such a d*ck, and doesn't want you to be hurt by him. I'm sure she's generally hoping that the collateral damage of his craziness is as limited as possible. Maybe she has guilt-by-proxy since she raised him and now look what he's doing. In the end, it doesn't matter. She's his mom and will always be 100% on his side, whether or not she also is capable of showing you love and support as well. If she is, great-- you're really lucky. if she isn't, oh well-- you're still the bigger person for reaching out and being kind.
I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?
Place kindness above fear. If you want to show kindness to her, don’t let your fear of her response stop you. Plus it’s easy to stop a conversation with texts lol!!! Also want to point that it’s a common theme- you want to explore your sexuality but you’re afraid of H’s response. You want to text MIL but you’re afraid of her response. Maybe this will be a good practice to conquer your fears. What’s the worst thing that can happen? If she tells you to move on again, you can say “thank you, I will think about it.”
Thanks for the encouragement, may and wooba! My H and his mom have a sort of complicated relationship, which I've realized mirrors a lot of the way H has treated me—he's always wanted to make her happy, and he worries about upsetting her, and they don't talk about how they actually feel or about much of anything of depth. Anyway, there are some issues there, so that I worry any time I contact her now it could complicate things between them or between H and me. But you're right, wooba, it's also an example of me needing to do what feels right to me and not letting fear stop me.
Also, MIL divorced when H was young. According to H, when he told her about BD/his desire for D right after, her response was something like, "If you're like me, when you make up your mind, you make up your mind." Remembering that still hurts a lot. I'm sure I don't know how she really feels about the situation; maybe her feelings are more complicated than she made them seem, but it made me think she rewrote everything she knew about my and H's relationship as well. I still think of her attitude as, "Oh, it didn't work out--too bad! I wish you the best!"
So I did text her, and she responded that it's been a crazy year for both of us (not sure what that means for in terms of her) but that she loves me and always will. She says we should chat soon.
I don't think she really has any idea of how H has treated me the last several months, that he's barely communicated, or that his behavior/drinking has been worrisome. She doesn't live here. I can't imagine actually chatting with her. Maybe if she had reached out to me after BD I would feel different. Right now, I would just feel the need to fight against her outside view of things or convince her things could be different, etc.
Good Morning cardinal
his mom's last day of work, which is also her birthday. Should I text her a simple Happy Bday/Happy retirement?
Yes you should contact her. And I’m glad to read you did.
I thought I had a good relationship with her, but after BD, she's never really communicated with me about what's going on. She did send a birthday text to me. She also once sent me a text that, to me, suggested she hopes I'm moving on, which really got to me. I expected her to support me in fighting for our M, but it's true that I don't know how she really feels about BD or what H has told her. I've been really hurt by her lack of support.
People have fears; MIL, FIL, parents, kids, friends, work acquaintances, the list goes on and on.
Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.
And the one suffering is emotional and busy crafting all manner of irrational coupling of their feelings and fears to various events, people, and situations. Things get mixed up.
I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again.
Good for you seeing a reason - “I’m afraid”.
MIL texted you a couple of times. One of which you took to be a suggestion to move on. It interesting what we read into things. This brief and assumed suggestion took hold in you. MIL’s mindset must be against me - kind of thinking. Fear and hurt based reactions - perfectly normal.
Expectations then went unmet which turn to resentment which further feeds your now growing belief about MIL and your own self doubts. All validated because you feel really hurt by her lack of support.
Rationalization. See it. Uncouple the fear.
You are correct, you don’t know how MIL feels, what she thinks about this or you, nor what H has told her. Something else to consider, she is older. Maybe even wiser. Three more decades of experience would probably have her survive a few more of life’s knocks. She might just realize the futility in trying to change her son’s mind.
My parents didn’t fight for my marriage. None of my family did. What kind of fighting would one expect from them anyhow?
This is me now, at the time I was quite hurt and crushed and felt much like you do.
Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?
Toughen up - that’s not quite it.
See thing more like growth. Toughen up, especially in matters of emotions, hardens the heart. I kept mine soft and squishy. I wanted to love again, living again, to be able to forgive. So to me that heading and goal needed less toughness and more compassion. Funny thing is soft and squishy is stronger and can take so much more. Hard and ridged will shatter.
...why should I let it affect me?
It does affect you. It doesn’t control you.
That goes for everything.
You affect you. You control you.
It’s a hard lesson to learn. To first understand, then to feel it, and then to actual place it in you belief system.
It’s true that events, people’s comments, actions, behaviours, etc... do affect us. We have rational responses, the intellectual side. And irrational responses, happy, sad, mad, glad, hurt, elated, excited, etc... After the initial emotion(s) has flitted away, it is us who continue to reinforce it.
BD for example is horrible. So much going wrong. Hurtful events and statement. So much to process. Too much to process. Eventually the initial “reason” for our feelings subsides and it is us that is causing our pain. Quite normal by the way, and actually needed to be honest. We grow from this emotional highjacking and gain much control over our lives.
No one has direct control over you. You control, and can only control, your actions, reactions, and thoughts; which can influence emotions and beliefs.
Mastery of “control of self” breaks those irrational chains that shackle one to their fears and pain.
So I did text her, and she responded that it's been a crazy year for both of us (not sure what that means for in terms of her) but that she loves me and always will. She says we should chat soon.
Good for you.
Her response of its been a crazy year for both of us, and that you don’t know what that means in terms of her. You’ve been deep in your own situation, while the rest of the world has been spinning along. She is retiring! That’s a big thing. Formally ending one’s life work - that a big transition. And there is most likely much more.
She also has not hear from you. Says you should chat. You should. And phone not text.
I don't think she really has any idea of how H has treated me the last several months, that he's barely communicated, or that his behavior/drinking has been worrisome. She doesn't live here. I can't imagine actually chatting with her. Maybe if she had reached out to me after BD I would feel different. Right now, I would just feel the need to fight against her outside view of things or convince her things could be different, etc.
Breathe. Calm. Relax.
You are jumping ahead.
Yes, maybe if she reached out after BD you’d feel different. Don’t make decisions based solely on feelings.
I understand and empathize with your very normal need to fight her outside view of things to convince her things could be different. I was there. Got a whole drawer of t-shirts from that particular ride.
In truth we are convincing ourselves. We are looking for validation. We are trying to assuage our self doubts. Gathering our allies and pushing away our enemies. Setting things up for a fight, and fighting does seem to be the default. You can do different. You can do better.
You don’t need to change her views. You can’t anyhow. Remember what and who you can
only control. Live and demonstrate your values. Let your light influence others. They control themselves and that is how they change. Fighting is just fighting.
I would call MIL and congratulate her. Have no expectations of the phone call. Let it take you where it will. Be prepared for a few scenarios of course, but don’t expect them. Just prepared to say I’m feeling very overwhelmed with all this and will have to continue another time. If it even came to that. Point is you don’t know.
Fear tangle us, paralyzes us, and we end up looking down paths of futures that most of which never happen. Let go of fear.
Well I fear I’ve rambled on long enough. (giggle - fear, lol)
Have a wonderful day.
DnJ
DnJ, I always love reading your responses. I’m glad I stopped here by today.
DnJ, as always, your words are so helpful and necessarily thought-provoking—it helps me step outside of my emotions and examine them more intellectually. That is a gift. That is going to take me many posts. Ha.
In truth we are convincing ourselves. We are looking for validation. We are trying to assuage our self doubts.
Yes. Last night, I was trying to pull my fear apart more to see what it's made of. MIL was someone I felt close to and trusted, someone whose opinion I valued and value, just as I did H's. Imagining talking to her after all this time stirs up lots of feelings that I need to process. One of the big ingredients of my MIL-fear is self-doubt; I am afraid talking with MIL would cause me to doubt my own experience.
I internalized a lot of what H said during BD and sometimes still have trouble understanding what I need to accept responsibility for in our R and what I can let go. The nature of BD—I had a lot of criticism coming at me at once, including the hurt and anger of his question: how had I not known he was so unhappy? Why would I change only now? It's that pull into his negative view of our history. I still need that outside validation from time to time to feel like I'm not going crazy—I couldn't have known because he didn't tell me. Of course I would want that validation from MIL.
Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.
I think this is probably true. She wants to encourage me to move on, to accept D, because she doesn't want me to hurt. And she knows it's pointless to try to change H's mind. If she says something to this effect in our conversation, how to respond? MIL, I will hurt either way; I am not planning to put my life on hold, but I have faith that H and I could have a stronger relationship in the future.
You don’t need to change her views. You can’t anyhow. Remember what and who you can only control. Live and demonstrate your values.
Is that response trying to change her mind? Is it stating my personal values? Is it me thinking that in order to live them I have to state them to her?
What if she thinks I knew H was so unhappy for years and did nothing about it? This is how H presents it to other people. I would feel the need to say:
You know H, you know how he says nothing bothers him, he's the happiest person in the world, etc. what he projects—I truly did not know he was deeply unhappy, or that D was ever in his mind. I wish we could have communicated our feelings better to each other.
What if she asks where we are in D timeline, or knows more than I do, because maybe H has mentioned some specific progress on filing that he hasn't shared with me? Me: I don't really know. H has not brought it up since November.
Would I feel the need to mention that in the last six months, he's barely spoken to me? That I've been worried about his drinking, staying out nights, that H is not himself? All that feels like convincing. All that has to do with how he lives his values, not how I live mine. It stems from my need to fend off self-doubt again: see, this is bigger than our relationship—it is about him feeling lost too. It is about dealing with that whisper that hasn't completely gone away: This is all about
you, he just can't love you. That is maybe at the irrational center of all of this. I am fighting myself, not MIL.
Well, those are the most present what-ifs, scenarios I would want to feel prepared for.
In the end, even her asking a simple question like, "How are you?".... That scenario. Just hearing her voice will make the situation felt in a new way. I can imagine everything flooding out. I can imagine crying and not being able to continue, worrying she will tell H. I'm probably tipping toward expectation and fear here.
I thought of her as my second mom. But she is H's mom. I don't feel that I can be so open and honest about my feelings with her. And, since I am still living with H, my talking to her feels like a bit of a betrayal. I really don't think he shares his feelings or specifics of our day-to-day situation with her.
Phew. Yes. Lots of feelings stirred up just thinking about the possibility of a conversation. What happened to examining them intellectually? I've strayed into them again rather than outside of them, I think!
Well, may and wooba, I did try to initiate and got turned down. H was home tonight and it was comfortable between us, so I decided to go for it. He seemed a little weirded out by my move and said sorry. I said “That’s okay—I’m not going to doubt myself anymore.” He came by my room a few minutes later and apologized again and said he doesn’t want me to feel weird. “It’s okay, I don’t,” I said.
We’ll see how I feel about this tomorrow, but I’m proud of myself for being brave tonight. I was feeling a bit sad earlier tonight thinking I had the chance to be intimate with him before and now maybe I’ll never get that chance again. I’m glad I didn’t let fear stop me from trying. The only thing I’m worried about at the moment is it disrupting the openness he’s shown me the past few weeks or prompting him to file sooner. Oh well! I’m not sure if I should address it further and assure him he shouldn’t feel weird or that I didn’t have any expectations of R, but I was very casual about it tonight. Hopefully he kind of gets that.
Kudos on making the move! No need to address it more. Your head seems to be in the right place, so as long as you’re acting normal there is no need for further explanation.
The opposite actually happened with me and my H today. He initiated and I was hesitant...so I wrapped myself up in my big winter robe lol.
Yes, I plan to just keep acting the way I have been without skipping a beat. I hope this doesn’t prompt a talk from him. It is bringing up some frustration in me that his attitude post-BD seemed to be that the SSM was solely my problem, as if both of us weren’t responsible for communicating needs/desires and figuring out how to meet them together. But that’s to be expected, right? Everything he brought up was pretty much blaming me for his unhappiness.
Can anyone offer me a little perspective check on these stories I’m telling myself? I’m telling myself he doesn’t seem depressed right now like he has for the last several months. My inclination is to doubt the last 16 years and the love I felt from him (I know I didn’t imagine it! Yet...) His friendliness toward me lately has nothing to do with his desire for D, which, based on his reaction to my move, is unchanged. He feels nothing toward me. My inclination is to read his lack of interest as a reason to give up hoping he could feel and understand things differently in the future, but feelings change. But my biggest takeaway from this should be that I am brave and more confident and capable of change. Maybe he will see that at some point too, but it is important that I see it.
Good Morning cardinal
Good for you overcoming fear and going for it.
Remember this whole things is more about him than you. That includes his response. The underlining ever present “feeling” for a crisis person is depression. A depressed person has difficultly with lots of activities, sex included.
We strive to do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.
This attempt was unsuccessful. It may have success later, but no time soon. Leave it be for now. H knows, and might just initiate round two himself. What would you do? Of course he may not either; got to watch those expectations.
Overall you sound like you handled it really well. Casual and reasonably pressure free. It was what you wanted to do.
Don’t dwell on his response too much. Treat this as you would if had said no, to you asked him to go to the store with you. MLCers don’t see the world and interactions the same as you.
DnJ
Can anyone offer me a little perspective check on these stories I’m telling myself? I’m telling myself he doesn’t seem depressed right now like he has for the last several months. My inclination is to doubt the last 16 years and the love I felt from him (I know I didn’t imagine it! Yet...)
First those stories aren’t stories.
I know how it feels as we tell ourselves these explanations to this behaviour that is so out of character for our once loving spouse. You know. You can see his behaviour. You are also finding a handle on your emotions. Beliefs are being crafted, slowly.
We all need a certain amount of understanding, both intellectual and emotional, to let go, to accept. To let go of self doubt, fear, worry; and embrace confidence, strength, compassion. To find our way to our light.
The path is not easy, it’s dark, with many twists and turn, pit falls, set backs, pain, sorrow; and yet there is joy, happiness, and peaceful times. The further you journey the less and less of the dark remains and the light shines through. Honest.
To doubt your past, the last 16 years, is a common hurdle of the LBS. You know what you lived. You have letter, gifts, pictures, memories of better times. It was real.
An MLCer rewrites their history. They have to. They are driven to such extreme measures, justifications are made, history is changed
and believed. They absolutely believe their new view on life. And they will expend enormous energies to maintain they fantasy reality. Anyone and anything that gets in their way or threatens their version, is mowed down.
The LBS, being scared and stunned and still wondering what the ... happened, is programmed to believe their spouse; that loving person of many many years. We take what they spew right into ourselves. We unwittingly believe it. It takes effort and time to transmute that poison and excise those demons of doubt.
Do not rewrite your own history! An LBs at first lean toward the bad side, having listened to our spouse. Then pushes hard towards the good side, usually making things better than they were.
Time and patience yields clarity with our remembered history and a great many other things. It is the wisdom behind such advice as: Dig for patience. You have the gift of time, use it well. Sit quietly and answers will present themselves.
His friendliness toward me lately has nothing to do with his desire for D, which, based on his reaction to my move, is unchanged.
Mind reading.
His friendliness towards you could be based upon many things. He doesn’t even know why. So you cannot be expected to know why. He is confused and emotionally driven. Be patience and focus on you.
He feels nothing toward me.
He appears to feel nothing towards you.
His emotions are cranked to 11. He has to mute and ignore his feelings for you. He can’t handle them. Time and space is very much needed for him. If you do not give it, he will take it. That’s why the advice of no pressure, and lots of time and space.
My inclination is to read his lack of interest as a reason to give up hoping he could feel and understand things differently in the future, but feelings change.
Expectations my dear. Keep them at zero.
His lack of interest a reason to give up your hope? No one gets to take away your hope!
Hope is powerful. It also needs to be focused. Or more specifically not focused upon. You focus on you, and hope for him.
But my biggest takeaway from this should be that I am brave and more confident and capable of change. Maybe he will see that at some point too, but it is important that I see it.
It is most important that you see your growth. Live it. Live in the light. Everyone around you, including H, will see it too. Remember all this growth is for you. That is your focus. Become the best version of you.
Yes, you have shown you are brave and more confident. Those are big takeaways. There are much bigger ones still to come. Have faith and walk your path.
Everyone needs a certain amount of understanding to move forward. I’m glad to see you are looking for it and moving forward at the same time.
Well done.
DnJ
Hi Cardinal, thx for checking in on me...very sweet of you. I’ve caught up on your sitch and it still amazes me the similarities. I don’t know how much I can help except to offer that I went through the same thing with my MIL before Christmas. 2months in she sent me an email saying that they are upset to hear the “news” and that they hope I’ll be ok and take care of myself”. WTF? I struggled with what to do and decided to pick up the phone and call. How do you just let your “second” family be snuffed out like that...and we are/were super close. Anyway, the convo did not go well...I very lightly did try to explain that something felt off and that H wasn’t himself. I was met with “well these things happen”. And “do you have a lawyer”.!!!! I think it was either DnJ or Job who pointed out the obvious that blood is thicker than water and there could be many other thoughts going through MIL head too including in my case denial that there is anything wrong with her S.
I internalized a lot of what H said during BD and sometimes still have trouble understanding what I need to accept responsibility for in our R and what I can let go. The nature of BD—I had a lot of criticism coming at me at once, including the hurt and anger of his question: how had I not known he was so unhappy? Why would I change only now? It's that pull into his negative view of our history. I still need that outside validation from time to time to feel like I'm not going crazy—I couldn't have known because he didn't tell me. Of course I would want that validation from MIL.
I too struggle greatly with this. At times such clarity but then (like right now) such doubt and how could I let things fall apart so badly. I too wanted validation from outside people (his family included) especially because he continues to work and function successfully and “seems” completely normal to an outside person. He’s masked hurt and disappointment for so long he’s become a master at it. In my case there was no validation from MIL just lots of denial and pretty much “oh well you’ll find happiness” it felt very flip and obviously still hurts.
Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.
I think this is probably true. She wants to encourage me to move on, to accept D, because she doesn't want me to hurt. And she knows it's pointless to try to change H's mind. If she says something to this effect in our conversation, how to respond? MIL, I will hurt either way; I am not planning to put my life on hold, but I have faith that H and I could have a stronger relationship in the future.
DnJ is very right. They really don’t know what to say and they definitely don’t understand the situation like we do...and anyone that is in your circle of caring definitely does not like seeing you in pain. I like your response should your scenario play out like that. To further add...right before Christmas I was to meet with SIL alone...I looked forward to this to shed some more light as to what was going on ... in a caring I don’t know what to do way. Well things changed and MIL came along. It def derailed how much I disclosed and I decided to just tell MY truth with respect to how I planned on handling the situation. I left out any details of how he was behaving etc because truthfully they are going to believe what they want anyway. I decided the only important thing for his family to hear was that I believe in my vows, that he’s burnt himself out and that I’m choosing to stand by him by giving him the space he has requested but live my life as best I can right now. The SIL knows there is more to the story and MIL is still in denial.
I know you also mentioned about getting upset but that’s part of your truth too...it is upsetting. I know we spend so much time not letting H see us upset and I tried SO hard to not get upset during that Xmas meeting, but It happened and I’m ok with that.
Do you plan on leaving the ball in MIL court to reach back out to initiate a get together or phone call?
((Hugs))
P.s. DnJ ....I will copy and paste your last response and re-read for myself. I feel very close to the same and a lot of your advice applies. Thank you.
Well, may and wooba, I did try to initiate and got turned down. H was home tonight and it was comfortable between us, so I decided to go for it. He seemed a little weirded out by my move and said sorry. I said “That’s okay—I’m not going to doubt myself anymore.” He came by my room a few minutes later and apologized again and said he doesn’t want me to feel weird. “It’s okay, I don’t,” I said.
We’ll see how I feel about this tomorrow, but I’m proud of myself for being brave tonight. I was feeling a bit sad earlier tonight thinking I had the chance to be intimate with him before and now maybe I’ll never get that chance again. I’m glad I didn’t let fear stop me from trying. The only thing I’m worried about at the moment is it disrupting the openness he’s shown me the past few weeks or prompting him to file sooner. Oh well! I’m not sure if I should address it further and assure him he shouldn’t feel weird or that I didn’t have any expectations of R, but I was very casual about it tonight. Hopefully he kind of gets that.
Hi Cardinal,
Proud of you for being brave too, and for not being weird about it. It's all good. I like DnJ's response too-- treat it like you invited him to go to the store with you and he said no. You get to take away from this that you're brave, you're confident, you can own your sexuality and desire and it isn't in response to him or to get a response for him-- it is for you. Nice job.
DnJ, wooba, may, Kindly! Thank you all for this much-needed support and for cheering me on in a way. This was such a huge step for me, and your visits here have indeed helped me keep my focus on the step itself, and me, rather than H's response, which did get me down just a bit and led to me thinking of BD and my doubts again.
I did feel sad for a day... like I missed out on so many chances to be this brave and initiate intimacy with H in the past, but I don't want to get lost in regrets. As you mentioned on wayfarer's thread and on yours, may, you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. That is true. I also didn't know how much H's insecurities about himself extended to our SSM. I know H is probably still hurt by the why-only-now-when-I-tell-you-I-want-a-D question, but if I would have known H was hurting... Anyway, the point is I
am changing and so much more is possible. I don't believe it's ever too late to make changes.
When I shared my attempt with my coach, she was surprised. She was proud. She was moved. You went right into the place of your greatest fear and vulnerability, she said. You did it! I think it really sunk in in that moment how big of a 180 that was for me, and how hard-earned.
I've been thinking about two other takeaways which I hadn't considered:
1. H did not respond by yelling, as if confused, "We're getting a D!" (i.e. What are you doing?!) Which is something he did in the fall when I questioned him about a household decision he made without telling me. The new friendly-H version of this could have been the same question in a normal tone, or a follow-up talk the next day—like, just so you know, my feelings haven't changed; I'm still planning on filing very soon, etc. But he didn't bring it up.
2. Not only am I proud that I took the risk (and yeah, kind of proud that it surprised H, because it should, considering it's such direct, new behavior from me), but I'm proud that I didn't get get cold or angry or cry when H turned me down. I took it in stride. That should also be a surprise to H.
DnJ, thanks for helping me to begin to reset my perspective, which I really needed.
You know what you lived. You have letter, gifts, pictures, memories of better times. It was real.
That validation must seem so simple, and yet I'd forgotten—oh, yes, I
do have many letters, for example, which would remind me that H hasn't felt this way forever.
He appears to feel nothing towards you. His emotions are cranked to 11. He has to mute and ignore his feelings for you.
Right. I do believe this. I believe he muted any feelings for me right away... I guess it's more accurate to say, sometimes I worry he will be able to do that forever. Or I will be muted for so long these feelings will cease to exist. But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.
Time and patience yields clarity with our remembered history and a great many other things. It is the wisdom behind such advice as: Dig for patience. You have the gift of time, use it well. Sit quietly and answers will present themselves.
Back to my uneasy relationship with time again... why do I fear time?
I had a dream again last night in which I confront H and try to shake him out of this. It was full of wonderful dream imagery and logic: his face was not his face but a drawing of his face. After finally yelling at him about how all of this was affecting me (truth bombs, Kindly!), I ripped away the paper and nothing was behind it. He had no head, no face, no... brain, I guess, either, right? In my dream I regretted screaming. I knew expressing my anger in that way wasn't helpful, and I couldn't take it back. Digging deep for patience and allowing time to unfold has saved me from that kind of response (not counting the emotional immediate response to BD!), and time has allowed me to grow in many ways.
Hello, hello. A few stray Thursday observations:
So far, still no big change for the worse in H's behavior. He's texted me a couple of times with questions, I've waited a bit, answered briefly, and then when he replied again, resisted sending any more conversational/jokey replies back, which is normally what I would do. My mantra in those times when I want to reply is, "This is counterintuitive."
My coach said I am self-protecting quite a bit. Not a surprise to me, as it's clear I've been struggling with this! I said things like when H moves out, when H files. She encouraged me to try to stay in if mode rather than when. (Kind of like hope vs. expectation, I see.)
I'm trying to decide what I'd like to do for myself on Valentine's Day. We never made a big deal out of the day, but H was always way more romantic than I was. I will miss his little gestures next week. No good movies playing! A dark theater and popcorn sounds kind of good though, so I might cave and see something anyway. I did buy a vase I've been eyeing for flowers.
Good Morning cardinal
I agree with your coach, and am proud of you as well. Facing fears head on. Well done.
I believe he muted any feelings for me right away... I guess it's more accurate to say, sometimes I worry he will be able to do that forever. Or I will be muted for so long these feelings will cease to exist. But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.
H didn’t mute his feelings right away. A person enters their crisis with a triggering event, which awakens long ago, unrealized, and unknown trauma(s). The now surfacing unyielding emotions of these past experiences will torment the MLCer, while remaining unrealized and unknown to the suffer. It is such a state of confusion (my XW actual thought she was going crazy).
The trigger happens about 18-24 months before BD. During that time the person’s crisis builds and builds. They try to ignore, rationalize, and compartmentalize to no avail. They start to blame others, still blind to the true cause boiling and hidden deep within themselves. The LBS gets the brunt of this irrational blast. The MLCer cannot handle what’s going on in themselves, so they have to project and blame someone else. Remember someone in a position of authority caused such a trauma to them in their young years, and they cannot face it. Deep inside they internalized and blamed themselves, and need to grow from that.
Your H started muting his feelings for you long before BD. And not knowingly.
It is normal to worry about how long the MLCer will remain running and those feelings remain buried under all that justification. Is he able to do it forever? It’s not so much his abilities or how long he can do it - for a good portion he is driven to this extreme and is beyond can or can’t, will or wont. The length of his crisis is not in his conscious control.
You wisely see the normal fear response to this.
But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.
Fear can be a belief. Fear can become a belief.
If one reinforces their fear enough it will be believed.
Nice to see you separating and rationalizing the two.
I liked your dream.
It was full of wonderful dream imagery and logic: his face was not his face but a drawing of his face.
Imagery and logic.
Working on understanding and finding compassionate indifference.
The MLCer, they are a mask, a facade, of an empty hollow shell. Look beyond his paper like outer projected strength, for underneath is a lost and scared little boy simultaneously lashing out and cowering.
I'm trying to decide what I'd like to do for myself on Valentine's Day. We never made a big deal out of the day, but H was always way more romantic than I was. I will miss his little gestures next week. No good movies playing! A dark theater and popcorn sounds kind of good though, so I might cave and see something anyway. I did buy a vase I've been eyeing for flowers.
Go see a movie.
Maybe if H asks, or if you want, invite him along. If he says no, no big deal, you still go.
If vs when. Hope vs expectation.
One’s mind is always listening, how and what we say has incremental impacts which accumulate and yield big results.
When you go to the movie you will have a good time.
If H comes along, good. If he doesn’t, that’s good too.
You are doing very well.
DnJ
Hi, DnJ, and Happy Saturday to you and everyone else here in DB land!
Yes, to be able to look beyond what H is projecting. To remember that I don't know what he's going through right now and to find compassion there alongside the indifference I am trying to cultivate. It was easier for me to keep this in mind when he was outwardly acting like a person in crisis (midlife or no)—the drinking, the partying, so clearly running and grasping at anything that would give him a break from himself. Even now, though, when he seems to have stabilized somewhat (again, outwardly, so I realize I am only observing the very tip of this iceberg), I notice little things he's stopped doing that used to bring him such simple joy and pure delight. These are things no one else would probably notice about him.
Fear can be a belief. Fear can become a belief.
If one reinforces their fear enough it will be believed.
Those persistent doubts hit again one night this week—what if H really never loved me, what if he was pretending to, pretending to be a different person for the entire M as he seemed to suggest once. I also did some spinning this morning: seeing some piece of mail H got that is most likely junk mail had me jumping to conclusions and then thinking about all the things he might be doing re: D that I don't know about, all the things he's thinking that he doesn't tell me, why has he not brought it up, and on and on... In both instances, I was able to eventually say to myself: Wait. These are all fears that I have. They are not necessarily rational. Just because they elicit strong feelings in me doesn't make them true. They are just things I am afraid of. They are only beliefs if I give them that power. I might have to sit with them for a bit before I can see them for what they are, and it may be uncomfortable, but I don't have to base my actions on them.
My Valentine's Day movie plans turned into dinner-with-a-friend-after-work plans, so I probably won't even see H that night. It is always good to meet with this friend, because she sees for herself how H has rewritten the past, and it is comforting to have that reinforcement from time to time from someone close that it was not all a dream! Still thinking about what kind of special dessert I will make for myself this week. Flowers are definitely in my future.
Hi Cardinal,
You are doing so well and are such a mirror for me!! I am really taking away a lot about your insights on your fears and fear driven behaviour and thinking...as again our timeline and the MLC behaviour is so similar.
Even now, though, when he seems to have stabilized somewhat (again, outwardly, so I realize I am only observing the very tip of this iceberg), I notice little things he's stopped doing that used to bring him such simple joy and pure delight. These are things no one else would probably notice about him.
TRUTH. It was much easier for me too to remain mentally calm when his behaviour was more erratic. My H has also very much withdrawn and therefore it absolutely comes across as stabilizing. And as you mention, with no one else noticing these behaviours from H it makes it easier for us to self doubt.
Those persistent doubts hit again one night this week—what if H really never loved me, what if he was pretending to, pretending to be a different person for the entire M as he seemed to suggest once.
It’s awful how difficult it seems at times to stop their words from hurting us. It also plays into my fears and insecurities around our M and “what if” H never loved me and felt trapped or something. To go from trusting and loving our H’s unconditionally to allowing their crisis and behaviour to instil doubt in our M’s and in our minds/hearts is an awful feeling that I absolutely still struggle with.
Just because they elicit strong feelings in me doesn't make them true. They are just things I am afraid of. They are only beliefs if I give them that power. I might have to sit with them for a bit before I can see them for what they are, and it may be uncomfortable, but I don't have to base my actions on them.
So insightful! I found myself doing the same thing for quite a period of time. Feeling like I had to react to everything I found, or anything he said. Only in the last little while am I coming to peace with doing things on my a OWN timeline and not letting him scare me into any action. I am not purposely stalling his ask for me to get a L....but I am taking my time and doing my research and I will proceed when I am ready not because he wants this yesterday. This is a much better mind set for me than running around letting fear control me. This takes a conscious effort for me every day.
I LOVE that you made plans for Valentine’s Day and the reinforcement we get from our friends is invaluable isn’t it?
I am thinking of going away for a long weekend...total 180 for me. We’ll see.
Can’t wait to hear about your special dessert and the flowers!
Self care and one day at a time. WE are worth it.
Love and hugs (((((())))))))
Hi there,
Yes the total lack of empathy and hurtful words from our MLC spouses cut deep into the soul. It's been said before I'm sure, but we on this board are just a little bit luckier than most because we have found an awesome support mechanism to help cope. I feel bad for all those who have failed to recognize MLC in their spouse because of the lack of resources we on this board have at our finger tips.
Even with your struggles you are doing awesome and your words give strength and solace to others, me included. One thing I have been doing before bed and first thing in the morning is meditating with the help of Solfeggio frequencies. Could be just a placebo effect but I find it creates space inside of me to absorb some of the BS my MLC wife will throw at me.
Regards and all the best.
Kindly! Thanks for dropping by, and for sharing your own experience here in response to my musings. It's always somehow comforting to know I am not the only one with these doubts and fears. I'm glad you're feeling more comfortable being on your own timeline and not always poised to react to something your H does. That's an awful feeling; I know it. Once I met with another L to get a bit more info on the D process, and I realized I would not be rushed into any decisions, I've been able to feel less controlled by fear too. Fear of the unknown.
I did take stock this week as I realized it has been six weeks of no movement on D and continued kind behavior. Well, considering he last told me in November he wanted to move on with his life and would file before the holidays, longer on that first one. I met with both my IC and coach in the last two weeks, so taking stock and recapping was a natural result of updating them. I realize I'm able to relax at the end of every week that is status quo on both counts and then prepare myself for a new one. It's not at the top of my mind throughout the week, but I know it's not the best practice to be measuring weeks by D progress or not. I know I feel strangely self-satisfied when I "make it" through another week without papers, and I also know
I have nothing to do with that, so why feel satisfaction? It's not in my control! I know there is no point in asking, Why hasn't he? I know it. But the fact is, he can, and he hasn't. For whatever reason or non-reason.
I did feel my anxiety rise a bit today when he didn't leave at his normal time for work. I thought, Is he going to the courthouse? But then he told me about another appointment he had. I wasn't panicking, but I did feel some relief: ah, okay, you've got another normal day ahead of you. Enjoy it.
So I'm still working to keep expectations at zero. But I do know I seem to approach each week as a question mark rather than an exclamation point. I try to keep my focus on the present. I try to be more curious than anxious.
I had fun devoting one of my days off to baking projects. First, cinnamon rolls, even though I slept in later than I expected. H shared some doughnuts with me and told me about the shop he'd got them from. I thanked him and enjoyed a few bites. I ate a cinnamon roll for lunch (yes, the perfect weekend lunch!) and offered H one. He hadn't eaten anything I'd made for months, so I wasn't surprised when he didn't take one. I, however, very much enjoyed mine.
Then onto a chocolate caramel cake and making caramel for the first time, watching the sugar go from white to translucent, to golden, then a dark amber. In the evening after I'd assembled the cake and enjoyed my dinner, I let H know he was welcome to have a slice. I was delighted that he took one later in the evening. Try to resist this amazing cake! Ha. Totally not reading anything into that, just glad he felt comfortable enough to have a piece, and, you know, there's some bakerly satisfaction there too.
I shared some cake with friends and am still doing some window shopping to see what kind of flowers I might buy for myself this weekend. Roses aren't my favorite, but of course they're everywhere.
I didn't have time to post yesterday but read through others' posts, and it really warmed my heart to see so many people reaching out and so many people here soothing, encouraging, listening. Aurora, it is as you say, awesome, this community. Thank you for your words of encouragement on my thread. It appears you are doing well, yourself!
Kindly, have you thought any more about weekend plans?
Cinnamon rolls!! After Yail's brunch and now you're making them... I want to try this. I have a sourdough starter I keep in my fridge and love baking bread when I have the time, but it is like a full day affair. You can proof the cinnamon rolls in the fridge overnight, right? So it doesn't suck up your whole day? Maybe a project for this weekend for me!
In both instances, I was able to eventually say to myself: Wait. These are all fears that I have. They are not necessarily rational. Just because they elicit strong feelings in me doesn't make them true. They are just things I am afraid of. They are only beliefs if I give them that power. I might have to sit with them for a bit before I can see them for what they are, and it may be uncomfortable, but I don't have to base my actions on them.
This is wonderful... I don't remember if you've tried meditating? If not it might be helpful for you to further explore this, being able to sit with a feeling or a fear or a thought and observing it, not letting it take over, but understanding it and letting it pass. (Full disclosure, I went to the psychologist today, referred after my primary care doc did my STI panel and wanted me to talk to the behavioral health specialist. It was fine, I think they were mostly screening for depression or anxiety, but her prescription to me was to meditate for 5 minutes every day before I go to sleep. I was hoping for sleeping pills but guess you can't have everything
But anyway, we talked a lot about meditation and I think it can be incredibly helpful and I'm convinced to simply MAKE TIME for this practice this week.)
So I'm still working to keep expectations at zero. But I do know I seem to approach each week as a question mark rather than an exclamation point. I try to keep my focus on the present. I try to be more curious than anxious.
I love this too, focus on being curious and approaching each week with a question mark. I am approaching this week with a "-" -- not really curious or anxious at the moment, just am. But I think curiosity is such an empowering and wonderful trait.
Here's my question to you-- are there other things you are curious about besides what your H's deal is? Can you explore those? It seems like you're doing a great job exploring the boundaries of your R with him and yourself-- initiating sex being one of those-- and in focusing on things you know and love, like a date with a good friend for V day and baking. What about something really different that you're just curious about? Like for me, I'm totally obsessed with viral epidemics. (I know. Weird. But my college roommate and I have been obsessed since we both read the Hot Zone in college and have been texting each other nonstop since this whole coronavirus thing started.) I know all about Ebola and the Spanish Flu (did you know healthy-seeming people got on the train in Manhattan and were dead by the time they got to their stop on Long Island???) and so am totally feeding this weird fun obsession by digging into the coronavirus stuff. I don't know-- watch a Netflix documentary on something you've always been interested in but haven't had the time, pick up a book in a different genre than you usually read... just feed your curiosity in another vein that has nothing to do with your R.
HUGS!
Like for me, I'm totally obsessed with viral epidemics. (I know. Weird. But my college roommate and I have been obsessed since we both read the Hot Zone in college and have been texting each other nonstop since this whole coronavirus thing started.) I know all about Ebola and the Spanish Flu (did you know healthy-seeming people got on the train in Manhattan and were dead by the time they got to their stop on Long Island???) and so am totally feeding this weird fun obsession by digging into the coronavirus stuff. I don't know-- watch a Netflix documentary on something you've always been interested in but haven't had the time, pick up a book in a different genre than you usually read... just feed your curiosity in another vein that has nothing to do with your R.
May- that is really weird that you’re into viral epidemics. Lol!!! I live in Asia now and of course the virus thing is all over the news here everyday. Our school has been suspended until March. Teachers are asking parents to prepare masks for the kids when we return to school. Are you into conspiracy theories regarding the spread of certain viruses also? There’s been some interesting ones regarding Coronavirus as well...
Anyways, I like your idea of focusing one’s curiosity on something other than H. I can’t seem to finish even one book for the life of me these days. By the time 10pm rolls around I just want to pass out. That’s what a house full of boys will do to ya!
Cardinal- you sound like an awesome baker. I wish I was better at baking. I know the simple stuff- cookies..muffins.. but beyond that I’d just go to the store. Ha! I do find cooking in general is quite healing though. Especially when you have people whom you love to share it with. My friends and I always pass around our food to each other when we happen make extra. Or sometimes we even cook together to make a big batch of something. I love receiving and giving food!
may22 - pandemic nerd here too - with an extensive medical and molecular biochemistry background. Stop by my thread anytime if you want to talk coronavirus statistics. I've been making back-of-the-envelope guesstimate calculations for a couple of weeks and a couple of days ago a study was published with all kinds of fancy math that came to the same conclusion I had!
I've also been sewing cloth face masks in my spare time.
(i'm in the Surviving the Big D forum)
may, you should totally make cinnamon rolls! The recipe I've been using lately is the King Arthur Flour "Cinna-Buns" one, which is online. You can proof the dough, roll it out, and refrigerate the rolls overnight so they're all ready to bake in the morning. I would just set them out for a bit before you bake them, so that they can get back to room temp--looks like the recipe suggests setting them out for an hour, covered. I love bread but haven't ever tried baking sourdough. Maybe that's in my future! I loved reading about Yali's breakfast and dinner plans.
wooba, cookies and muffins are the best, especially when you want (nearly) immediate satisfaction.
Baking and cooking together/for each other is something I really miss, since it was a big part of my and H's relationship, but I'm glad I can still find joy in doing it for myself and finding others to share it with. Receiving and giving food is the best.
Oh boy, viral epidemics/pandemics! Have you read Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel? It's more about the aftermath of a pandemic, but I remember really enjoying that book. That fact you shared, may, about healthy-seeming people not making it off the train is so... amazing! And scary, of course. kml, maybe you can supply all of us with your face masks?
Are you not a little freaked out at all, wooba? Stay healthy!
I do love your question, though, may. I tend to think I know all of my interests, curiosities, and passions, but it's completely true that I could discover new ones at any moment. I will keep thinking about the question for sure. I'm a writer and usually a huge reader, but I haven't been drawn to fiction like I normally would be... that part of me is on hold for now. Sometimes that makes me sad, but I know it will return. Maybe what I need is to search for more nonfiction books that will pique my curiosity. I did just get the Nagoski book and am excited to start that. I'd also like to read more graphic novels.
I don't remember if you've tried meditating? If not it might be helpful for you to further explore this, being able to sit with a feeling or a fear or a thought and observing it, not letting it take over, but understanding it and letting it pass.
I wanted to reply to this too. I have taken maybe one meditation class in the past and had a very irregular practice for a bit, so I know that it
can[ become a practice again, if I really make the effort to do it. I like the idea of just 5 minutes a day. DnJ's writing on fear, thoughts, and emotions has helped me start to understand how I can work to feel more empowered in the face of my fears and emotions. Rather than just letting them repeat in my head, I am now trying to take the time to pause and ask what is rational or irrational, where do they come from, all of that. Meditation, to me, is the other part of that--after I've done a bit of work to see my fears or feelings from different angles, then perhaps when they return, I can more calmly observe and let them pass. No analyzing needed. My IC also pointed out that it's a great way to just practice being present if I find myself skipping ahead to the unknown future or back to the past: What is happening now around me? Let me know how this meditation practice goes for you, may.
I'm still finding myself cycling through questions like, How can he view our entire M so negatively? Reliving little bits of BDs from time to time, questioning how this person became this other person who is now my roommate. How weird it still is to not talk about what either of us is thinking or feeling, how quickly he removed what intimacy we did have in favor of acting like acquaintances. Where did all those years go? It feels like we are both pretending they didn't happen. I think it might be time for me to re-read DR, go back to the basics.
I'm trying to talk myself through some spinning. It's the unknown logistical stuff that I have the hardest time with! I've been working on tracking my expenses so I can get an idea of how much I'm spending on groceries, gas, etc. on my own, and starting to document household bills that we pay, since most of that has been H's doing. It's scary to see the first month's total, not so much because of my personal spending, but because I have to imagine being responsible for the household bills on one income—car insurance, utilities, health insurance, which I can't really calculate at this point in time. I already know it will be difficult to pay for housing and other basic living expenses based on my current wages and spousal support, which is why I've been focusing on applying for better jobs, but it's scary to see numbers in a spreadsheet. The cost of living here is high.
I also happened to see a fairly normal purchase H has made in our account, but it's a concrete reminder that I don't know where he is when he's gone. It seems like there's so little I know about his life now. It's a reminder I have no control over what he decides to do, and it's a reminder of the ways a D would affect my life, in terms of having to be financially independent, in terms of paperwork and all that. Here's where my anxiety kicks in, and I'm carried along by thinking about the unknown future--what if I can't get a job? All the way to, Should I change my name back?
So I realize all of this is fear-driven. I'm trying to stay in the present and remind myself I'm doing all I can to find a different job, we are still sharing expenses, he hasn't filed, who knows what will happen. It's all fear of the unknown again, of the what-ifs. It's being confronted with the fact that I don't have the control over my life that I thought I did pre-BD. But in the darkest pit of the spinning, it always comes back to the fact that I don't know what he's thinking and planning, that I don't know when/IF, trying to stay in IF, he might file.
To have such big question marks in both my work and personal life right now is, as you can tell, a challenge for me. Ha. Understatement. The old me would have been in a constant state of anxiety, but I feel like moving through heightened bursts of it like this is a slight improvement. I am preparing as best I can for what is unknown. I don't need to get ahead of myself. I'm scrambling to solve problems on the route, before I've even reached the problem! Apparently I have a fear of lack of preparation, too?
Hello cardinal
I like reading you looking at the rational and irrational pressures in your life. The understanding of your fears. You are doing really good and well on your way.
I'm still finding myself cycling through questions like, How can he view our entire M so negatively? Reliving little bits of BDs from time to time, questioning how this person became this other person who is now my roommate. How weird it still is to not talk about what either of us is thinking or feeling, how quickly he removed what intimacy we did have in favor of acting like acquaintances. Where did all those years go? It feels like we are both pretending they didn't happen.
H isn’t pretending.
Cycling and questioning is common. We tend to project and believe we know what our spouses are thinking. A pretty normal thing considering all of us knew our spouse probably better than anyone else. But they are not themselves now.
We LBS have felt the loss of time. We all have dwelled upon those moments of bomb drop - my goodness for those first months I relived and revisited XW’s speech, replayed those 5 minutes probably a couple of thousand times. While your replaying and reliving a moment in your mind you are there. Its like time travel. We go through depression and get lost in thought and wandering down memory lane. Imagine the MLCer.
MLCers are consumed by their trauma(s). Moment(s) of their lives from long ago; most likely more than a mere 5 minute speech at a dinner table; relived and revisited time and again. Unable to find understanding as the emotions of that “time” push and push.
Our pain and suffering, the loss of time we experience, is from our emotions of BD. How we felt and what it stirs up within us. No one talks about how they thought a the moment of BD. It is how we felt at that time, that grips us.
MLCers’ emotions have an enormous grip and scream out at them. Their journey is emotional, feeling and emotions cranked to 11, and drowning out reason, logic, and rational thought. There are times when the emotions subside for a bit, and they peek out, and then sink back into the mire.
So, where did all those years go for H? They are still there, just inaccessible or locked away for now. H is just at a different time. He is back when whatever emotional stunting trauma happened and hopefully will emotionally grow up from there.
It’s a weird thing to witness. They really are back in time. My XW recalled things from 30 years ago like it was today. In her even younger personality, she lost her abilities to perform math except and the most basic level of around a seven year old. As I said, so weird. This is a mental illness driven by hidden emotional trauma that all one can really do is be compassionate, understanding, and find forgiveness. And those you discover are really for your wellbeing.
We focus on ourselves. First and foremost for our health and wellness, and to find detachment and indifference so we can learn how to treat our MLCer kindly and not unduly pressure them. These are broken hurt lost souls. The best thing you can do for yourself and them is to keep moving forward. It’s up to them to figure out what to do if/when they see your beacon.
Sorry, I did get a tad over-encouraging there. It takes a certain amount of understanding to rationalize and let go - of fear, of H, of R, of one’s need to fix. I see your questions are leading you so very well; I may have got carried away.
To have such big question marks in both my work and personal life right now is, as you can tell, a challenge for me. Ha. Understatement. The old me would have been in a constant state of anxiety, but I feel like moving through heightened bursts of it like this is a slight improvement. I am preparing as best I can for what is unknown. I don't need to get ahead of myself. I'm scrambling to solve problems on the route, before I've even reached the problem! Apparently I have a fear of lack of preparation, too?
See. Look at the improvement. Old you vs new and improved you.
The unknown - that possible future event.
The unknown - let the future unfold in its time.
The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.
You’re right, no need to solve problems en route.
And by the way, we all have 84 problems.
DnJ
Hi Cardinal!
Just stopped by to say hi and that you’re not alone. I too am sorting through finances while H seems to be getting more aggressive again about moving the D process along. I too am struggling at times to not let fear kick in...fear of the unknown, fear of the finances (which H took care of as well) and just general fear of my lack of knowledge with what to act upon next ....sometimes even when I know there’s nothing immediate that needs doing.
Love that you’re baking ....mmmmm cinnamon rolls. You’ve inspired me too to try and make these now. Hope you have a wonderful YOU day tomorrow and that you get those gorgeous flowers.
I’ve decided to take a mini trip with my sister...looking forward to relaxing, being away from H on my terms for once, and just mentally shutting down for a few days.
Take care!
I don't need to get ahead of myself. I'm scrambling to solve problems on the route, before I've even reached the problem! Apparently I have a fear of lack of preparation, too?
This is me!! Totally. I'm working on letting some of that go too, trying to focus on where I am today and the problems I'm facing now, not the ones that may or may not happen at some point in the future. That can drive you bananas.
Researching always helps me, as does making lists and breaking things down into more manageable chunks-- wondering if one of those strategies could help? For instance, I bet recording your current expenses, while not fun, will be a huge help as you move forward. Maybe researching car insurance can help too-- getting more information on any of these unknowns is taking action and something within your control. Anyway, it seems like you're really doing all the right things, even as you have all those completely normal fears/anxieties of what may come next, especially around things that are not within your control.
Hang in there-- thinking of you! I looked up the cinnamon roll recipe-- looks fabulous. King Arthur Flour is actually where I bought my sourdough starter from (they mail it to you) and I LOVE it. They send a super easy recipe along with. Definitely recommend it for you if you're interested!
Also, I did read Station Eleven... soooo scary. I'm re-reading Spillover by David Quammen and just bought Crisis in the Red Zone, Richard Preston's new book about the more recent Ebola epidemic. I have failed at meditating this week but every day is a new opportunity, right?
Another book I'm reading that you might like about meditating is Joy on Demand.
Anyway, hoping you have a great day and weekend. Know that there are all of us here for you. (((HUGS)))
Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! I hope you have found some way to treat yourself today and in the coming days. I cobbled together stems from several places to make a beautiful bouquet (I wish I could arrange some for you, too, Kindly!), and—may, wooba, wayfarer, HesAble—I bought pillow shams H would probably hate.
I'm working on polishing off that chocolate cake I made last weekend.
Ah, DnJ, the first question that popped into my head after reading your thoughtful response: Well, what if H isn't going through an MLC? I don't know his true mind and heart, even though as you say, it's natural to project to some extent once you've known someone so closely for so long. But then I suppose this applies either way:
Their journey is emotional, feeling and emotions cranked to 11, and drowning out reason, logic, and rational thought. There are times when the emotions subside for a bit, and they peek out, and then sink back into the mire.
Isn't that the WAS in general? I also have a bit of trouble imagining H caught in a swirl of feelings and emotions—he's always seemed to operate rationally, by a sometimes cold logic. But then... I think, well, part of the issue is that he's been suppressing emotions for so long. So why not? And it seems totally possible that the WAS could think they are making decisions based on simple logic, but they are actually driven so much by emotion, or by the need to run
from feelings or by an inability to fully or partially acknowledge or understand them. Rather than sit with uncomfortable or often contradicting thoughts and feelings, it seems easier to switch back to a kind of black and white logic, which also act as justifications for their exits. (Hmm... maybe this is the opposite of what I've been trying to do, which is to use rational thinking to better understand and examine my thoughts and feelings, rather than to avoid them or ignore them.)
Another part of my journey is noticing that my brain automatically seems to pick the scenario that is least optimistic or generous to
me, which is I think a weird way that my brain thinks it's protecting me.
I've experienced more anxiety this week, and then I woke up today surprised to feel that calm resolve again—that, no matter what happens, H and I aren't done. Sometimes I try to create that feeling, try to reason myself into why it might be possible, but when I experience it like this, it's different. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not something I reasoned or hoped. It's just there, as if separate from me.
The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.
This goes against the way I am wired!
Worry about Look forward to whatever the future is bringing. Which just means it's going to be a challenging 180, but not impossible.
Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! I hope you have found some way to treat yourself today and in the coming days. I cobbled together stems from several places to make a beautiful bouquet (I wish I could arrange some for you, too, Kindly!), and—may, wooba, wayfarer, HesAble—I bought pillow shams H would probably hate.
I'm working on polishing off that chocolate cake I made last weekend.
Haha!! Nice. My valentine’s treat for myself is to dye my hair. My H is probably going to hate it too. I’m still trying to get used to the new hair myself though! Ha!
I think, well, part of the issue is that he's been suppressing emotions for so long. So why not? And it seems totally possible that the WAS could think they are making decisions based on simple logic, but they are actually driven so much by emotion, or by the need to run from feelings or by an inability to fully or partially acknowledge or understand them..
I feel a bit of this with my H also. I think there was a lot of emotion from childhood trauma that he thought he had processed enough. But maybe because of MLC or whatever reason that things surfaced and he wasn’t confronting them head on. So now he is an emotional mess driven by what he thinks of as his logical thinking. Sounds scary doesn’t it?
Good Morning cardinal
Ooh, chocolate cake! I’ll be right over.
Sometimes I try to create that feeling, try to reason myself into why it might be possible, but when I experience it like this, it's different. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not something I reasoned or hoped. It's just there, as if separate from me.
That is a belief.
A value, a conviction. It is a force that exists both within and outside of your control. It is both conscious and subconscious, intellectual and irrational, logical and emotional. It just is.
We are so much more than we can rationalize. More than we think we are. More than we feel we are. That is your spiritual “car”. The summation of all you think, feel, and do - intellectual, emotional, physical.
It’s exciting to see one’s values and beliefs as they are. Not many people see what drives them. And yes, our beliefs and values influence everything. We can influence them, alter and strengthen our beliefs, which changes our lives in incredible ways. As you said, it is beyond reason and beyond hope.
That influence begins with focus on you. The physical and intellectual pursuits slowly reaching towards understanding and lead emotional acceptance. The compassionate empathic path intertwine with understanding and acceptance, fearlessness, forgiveness, one’s very core or soul can be reached.
I do agree with your assessment of what if H isn’t going through MLC and is just a WAS. They are similar aren’t they. It’s hard to know the underlying factors and pressures of one’s spouse. With MLC, I believe there is more confusion and a feeling of being out of control, crazy, the absolute drive and uncontrollable need to get away, to run. The LBS’s response is the same regardless.
I do see how it would be difficult to see H is emotionally driven. Guys are more logical and reasoned and sadly do not show their feelings much - to others or themselves. So when MLC hits and emotional trauma refuses to be silent, oh my. Your observation of H maybe running from his emotions is actually MLC in a nutshell.
An MLCer cannot face their pain and trauma, and project it, and blame it away. Thinking they are embracing their intellect and reason. It is the lie they tell themselves. Their intellect and reason is driven from emotions. My XW
knew she made the correct well thought out and calculated decision to abandon her children because it
felt right. She felt better with “her” logical reasoned action. Truth, is in the eye of the beholder. She ran from her pain and torment, thinks (feels) it’s right and better because she no longer hurts. That’s her truth. It will crumble like the sand it is built upon, and she will either start to face it or run again. Oh, confusion reigns in their lives, and they cannot see it.
(Hmm... maybe this is the opposite of what I've been trying to do, which is to use rational thinking to better understand and examine my thoughts and feelings, rather than to avoid them or ignore them.)
Exactly.
We do not run. We face the pain and follow the sting. Use rational thought to explore and examine. Our goal is acceptance not to ignore.
Another part of my journey is noticing that my brain automatically seems to pick the scenario that is least optimistic or generous to me, which is I think a weird way that my brain thinks it's protecting me.
Why?
You are a smart gal, and are seeking and finding understanding very quickly. So what is your brain doing and why?
It’s weirdly automatic. Kind of just happens, like it’s separate from you - right? Beliefs.
Preparing for the worse - is that the same as least optimistic - prepares you for failure, disappointment, and so on. It’s an expectation. People do seem to usually unconsciously pick the pessimistic scenario. That predisposed one to that very end. Our minds are listening and will make our imagined outcome a reality.
Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.
You can influence your belief system. And are, every day, every moment, we reinforce our values and beliefs. It happens mostly unrealized; our beliefs unknowingly influence our behaviour which of course goes along with that value, which in turn feeds back and strengthens that belief. It takes an effort to see that process and alter a conviction. However, once altered it is self-reinforcing. That’s the power of a belief.
Beliefs are slow to change, unlike thoughts and feeling which do flit away. It’s some of the most important inner work - finding one’s beliefs and altering those you aren’t happy with. Do the work, become the best person you will be.
The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.
This goes against the way I am wired!
Worry about Look forward to whatever the future is bringing. Which just means it's going to be a challenging 180, but not impossible.
Against the way I’m wired. - At the moment, yes it is.
It’s not impossible.Almost anything is possible.
What are you going to believe?
DnJ
Yesterday morning—the calm before the storm, I think, because now I'm feeling tossed around by, well, feelings. Bear with me while I try to get my bearings! My dinner with a friend last night somehow left me in worse shape. It’s not like she told me anything new about H—in a lot of ways it was like every other dinner we’ve had, where she says she’s surprised as I am he hasn’t filed yet. I know he doesn’t have heart-to-heart talks with her, but she does ask him what’s up from time to time, and he always has some new reason why he didn’t get to filing this week. She sees the positive changes in him too—that he’s not as angry, not drinking to excess (though it seems last night he did, because he's home but his car isn't... did V-Day get to him too? Who knows.). She feels he was probably mad at himself for letting things get to the point in our M where they weren’t “fixable” (his words to me around BD 1 & 2), thus the period of coping with drinking and nights out. He’s still going to counseling.
Nothing revelatory, and I had no expectations of any revelations, so why did I leave the dinner feeling so utterly defeated? I tried to reason through it last night, but I just felt a new level of sad and numb.That gloomy, depressed feeling persists. I guess it has to do with getting a glimpse of him from someone else's perspective, one that happens to reinforce my fears. Okay, so he’s not prioritizing filing ASAP for whatever random reason, but he's planning on it (and maybe taking some other steps I don't even know about), and it seems his attitude that it’s too late for R and we're unfixable hasn’t changed, at least as far as what he reveals to this friend.
None of that is news to me, but my mind reacted as if it was. Is it just having it confirmed again that is hard for me? Do I really expect he would share any deeper thoughts, if he ever had them, with this friend, especially when he knows she is my friend too? No... but it still hurts to see, through her eyes, how different my outlook is from his. It's as if I'm tucked into my own little hopeful bubble, and that hope ends up feeling false and naive when I step outside of it. My bubble is filled with what I know from MWD and what I read here in various threads: WAS by necessity see things as unfixable, any changes in a WAS/MLC scenario happen very slowly, for the most part, and are not always observable. Over and over I read that what is going on in their minds is very different than what we as LBSes or others assume. Change starting not with a declaration of love but a whisper of doubt, etc. As I type all of that out now, it doesn't seem so incredibly naive or false.
Is all this sadness stemming from confronting that I'm not in that place I’m supposed to try to get to, where I’m okay with either outcome, D or no (R or no)? I'm just not. I'm a broken record. I'm still afraid of D. I still haven't let go, though I know that is all I can do. The truth is I want with my whole heart to have H in my life. That desire hasn't gone away no matter how much stronger or more independent I've become. DnJ, I think you would point me to desires and hopes again. That desire doesn't have to go away, but it shouldn't be the sum of my happiness. It's not the sum, but I still don't
want to imagine my life without him in it. Our friendship, our relationship was only a part of what made my life joyful and rich, but it was such a big, wonderful part.
It might not seem like I'm replying to the last post, but I know this is all wrapped up together. People keep coming in and out at my job and I have to be cheerful and engage and I don't want to see anyone, so of course it's busy today. I'm having trouble connecting my thoughts! I will have to keep reading and thinking about it.
Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.
I know this is a big change in how I approach events in my life big and small, one that I really need to work on in order to make my life better in general. Reading these words make me cry for some reason. I know it's connected to everything I've been feeling. I'm not sure how to take the first step. It starts with changing my thoughts.
To sum up: I am a mess of feelings today.
Today—still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place. H has been gone most nights this week for the first time in a while, and I think my anxiety is surfacing so much because I’m sent back to how things were for so long before the new year, all the coldness and uncharacteristic behavior from him. He said little to me this morning, and maybe the thaw of the last six weeks is coming to an end or maybe I’m just fearing that. I don’t like seeing how I’m affected by his moods again—his recent prolonged friendliness has definitely messed with me. It appears he was out on V-Day night with a (girl) friend, and this shouldn’t surprise me because he’s been hanging out with friends who are girls all along, as is his norm. I’m feeling so insecure right now, though. It hurts to imagine him with anyone else, now or in the future. I know this is a basic step—detach, detach, detach, and I’m disappointed that I’m letting these things get to me, but I’m just at a low point, feeling vulnerable and hurt. Feeling like this is about me even though I know logically it isn’t. Had to stop crying when I heard his car pull up. It’s days like this when I see how it could be both easier and harder if he had moved out.
Hello cardinal
(((Hugs)))
still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place.
It’s ok. I know how it feels to sink low again. Setbacks are necessary steps forward. During our moving forward we assess, test, and challenge our ideas, thoughts, feelings, and yes those beliefs. For what good are beliefs if they cannot handle a challenge; you want strong beliefs. You will challenge them, even if you don’t see yourself doing it. In that view the term setback seems mislabelled doesn’t it?
This is progress, even though it doesn’t feel like it. Remember counterintuitive.
Something has stirred your emotions. It’s ok. Feel them, let them wash over you.
Is all this sadness stemming from confronting that I'm not in that place I’m supposed to try to get to, where I’m okay with either outcome, D or no (R or no)? I'm just not. I'm a broken record. I'm still afraid of D. I still haven't let go, though I know that is all I can do.
Be gentle on yourself. Letting go is difficult.
cardinal, all you can control is you.
It’s okay to not want a D. You don’t need to be alright with D or no (R or no). You aren’t pushing for a divorce, so you aren’t making that decision. Aren’t in control of that. H is doing that.
Is there much point in fearing something you cannot control? It’s not divorce you fear, that’s just the trigger. Look deeper, what possible future events post D are frightening and paralyzingly you?
The truth is I want with my whole heart to have H in my life. That desire hasn't gone away no matter how much stronger or more independent I've become.
Yes. Detach and find indifference.
DnJ, I think you would point me to desires and hopes again. That desire doesn't have to go away, but it shouldn't be the sum of my happiness. It's not the sum, but I still don't want to imagine my life without him in it. Our friendship, our relationship was only a part of what made my life joyful and rich, but it was such a big, wonderful part.
Of course you desire that relationship. And I’ve no doubt it was a big wonderful part of your life - however it does not define you. Relationships are not what makes one happy.
Desires are like beliefs - they just are. They exist beyond our reasoning.
You don’t need to crush your desires, nor crush your hopes. You can find a place where detachment, indifference, desire, and hope do live together.
For what it’s worth, you are just testing you hopes right now. I did this as well; been there done that. It’s good - you want strong hope.
It might not seem like I'm replying to the last post, but I know this is all wrapped up together.
To me, you are replying to the last post. I didn’t think you would be challenging things quite this soon... yet here you are.
Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.
I know this is a big change in how I approach events in my life big and small, one that I really need to work on in order to make my life better in general. Reading these words make me cry for some reason. I know it's connected to everything I've been feeling. I'm not sure how to take the first step. It starts with changing my thoughts.
The first steps - refocus on you.
You feel broken again, right?
Ripped open? Exposed? Vulnerable? Hurt?
This is where you can make huge inner impacts. It’s hurts. It’s raw. It’s emotional. It’s scary.
It starts with changing your thoughts and making those influences felt right to your core.
When one is so opened up, they gain access to some pretty deep and usually hidden ideas and beliefs. I found some I wasn’t too proud of, actually rather ugly to tell the truth. I discarded those, that unwanted internal baggage. Let the light shine in, push back your fears, and look around.
Be patient, this does take time.
I’ll be here. Walking beside you. Share when you’re ready.
And be gentle on yourself, this part hurts.
DnJ
Today—still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place. H has been gone most nights this week for the first time in a while, and I think my anxiety is surfacing so much because I’m sent back to how things were for so long before the new year, all the coldness and uncharacteristic behavior from him. He said little to me this morning, and maybe the thaw of the last six weeks is coming to an end or maybe I’m just fearing that. I don’t like seeing how I’m affected by his moods again—his recent prolonged friendliness has definitely messed with me.
Hi Cardinal. Just wanted to stop by to say how much I can relate to all of what you are feeling and have posted. As DnJ said it does feel like I am broken again, exposed, vulnerable and mostly hurt. Do you feel that too? And like you, it sometimes feels like it is still attached to Hs’ behaviour or mood. For me sometimes it still comes out of nowhere ....despite GAL I’m finding that there are some areas of over-processing that I am not allowing myself to let go of. One big one I keep replaying is how can this caring caring man be doing this???? I know he’s lost but it’s hard when you see him most days and he appears completely fine. Right?
It’s days like this when I see how it could be both easier and harder if he had moved out.
I often wonder about this too....I don’t know which would be worse for me.
You’ve got people in your corner caring about you...be good to yourself.
Hi Cardinal-
I totally can relate to some of what you are feeling. I am too. It’s weird, because I thought I was becoming the detachment queen, and I don’t I know what shifted, but the last couple of days I feel like I am treading water to keep my head above the fray.
I can just offer you a hug and hope as we continue down these paths, we will each feel better.
PLC
It's been a few days, so I have a feeling this will be another long post.
Maybe I'll divide it into two. DnJ, I have a big piece of the cake I didn't manage to finish in the freezer (more of a hunk than a piece, really); I wish I could send it to you! First, where I left off: feeling so low all weekend, and how that changed.
For what good are beliefs if they cannot handle a challenge; you want strong beliefs. You will challenge them, even if you don’t see yourself doing it. In that view the term setback seems mislabelled doesn’t it?
This is progress, even though it doesn’t feel like it. Remember counterintuitive.
I really needed to hear this: It was the first step in reframing how I felt, and it's now a reminder for me to revisit this on other hard days. It was some relief, DnJ, that the horrible feeling could actually be in part a way of testing my beliefs, could be progress, even though it definitely didn't feel like it. I had to stop crying and re-focus for an interview Sunday afternoon (for a remote very part-time gig, but it would bring in a bit of extra cash). I did that, got groceries, came home to H in his room. I decided it would make me feel better to mow, so I did that. (Okay, H might've been preparing for a nap, but I'd already decided to mow, and he can sleep through anything.
) I started weeding, preparing some areas of the garden I planted last year for the return of flowers. I was outside working for maybe an hour or a little more. That whole time thoughts and feelings came and went like dandelion fluff drifting by. It was like meditating for me, May. I was an an observer, part conscious, part unconscious, while I focused on pulling up weeds.
You feel broken again, right?
Ripped open? Exposed? Vulnerable? Hurt?
Yes. First, lots of angry, sad, jealous stuff, the kind of things I'd been feeling all weekend came out. At some point I noticed those feelings and thoughts were being replaced with kinder ones. Thoughts and feelings of acceptance, wanting to forgive, wanting H to be happy, wanting to let go as H does whatever he thinks he needs to do. I moved around the yard, keeping my focus first on weeding. Gradually I felt much calmer. It was like I'd also been weeding the negative thoughts and feelings from my own mind and body without intending to. By the time I was ready to go back inside, I felt almost light again. I noticed that feeling (belief) of Friday morning return—this is not the end of you two, it will work out somehow—come back. I hadn't expected it to return for a while, since I'd felt so bad. I was so surprised to feel it surface again.
I wrote all of this down in more detail and I'm writing it here too, because it feels like it will be helpful for me to re-read in the future and hopefully helpful for others too. Earlier in the day, I could not have imagined feeling better again that night. Counterintuitive. I know there will be more days where I feel so, so low and have a hard time finding hope—it's just not a straight line, this journey. I needed a bit of physical and mental distraction in order to let my mind rest and work through things. In the end, it really was like I was challenging my beliefs and didn't realize that's what was happening. I can see myself going through cycles of this—I don't think all of those negative thoughts and feelings are gone for good yet, but now I
know they can be replaced. I know they aren't beliefs.
I think I'll be spending a lot of time doing yard work this spring...
Post, part 2: Thank you also May, Wooba, PLC, Kindly for your support here on my corner of the board. It means so much. May, I think I missed your V-Day post, and I just came across a recipe that required sourdough starter and was like... do I want to get some? I've always been a bit overwhelmed by the thought of all the feeding that's required, but I guess it probably becomes second nature after a bit, yeah? I was also looking at the King Arthur starter! Wooba, it felt so good to dye my hair at the beginning of the year. Just a refresh.
The latest trend here of H being gone every night (though he's usually home by 10 or 11) has continued from last week. I did have trouble readjusting after I realized I'd gotten used to him being
home almost every night prior to that, which had at first been such a surprise. I do find myself wondering why he's distancing himself
now again, though I try not to dwell on it—sure, maybe it was because I made a move on him, but for a whole week after that nothing changed in his behavior. If I'm zigzagging on my journey, he might as well be too, especially if depression is part of it. He's got a photobooth photo of him and his (girl) friend in his room, from their V-Day evening. He knows I go in there from time to time, since our clothes storage spills over there. I know they could be just friends or they could be something more. Even in high school, his best friends were girls. (Now I'm like, another sign of NGS? Ah.) Either way, she's someone who only knows him as he presents himself now. Either way, I miss taking those photos with him. Well, it hasn't messed with my overall PMA too much this week. Keep the focus on me, right?
Two things that stuck out to me this morning, from Job and Steve85 in response to KitCat. A reminder that I have thought as much about my sitch, but don't often give my own words the consideration they deserve. I'm too close to my own sitch but also don't trust myself enough.
I've seen a lot of these sitches KC. And in the one's where a WAS wanted to be out the door as soon as possible....they were.
Actions speak louder than words and quite frankly, right now, his actions don't match up w/his words. If he truly wanted out, he would have been gone by now and either stayed w/his parents full time or w/some of his friends/co-workers.
Anyway, I made shortbread cookies for a friend this morning. And ate a few myself.
Hi Cardinal,
I love the weeding meditation. That is amazing. I wonder if I approached weeding (which I hate, have zero patience for) as meditation (which I also have such a difficult time with) I could combine two undesirable but important activities into one. And actually make some progress SOMEWHERE. It sounds like it was exactly what you needed. Plus, you got the weeding done. Yay Cardinal!!
On the sourdough starter-- I just keep mine in my fridge and take it out a day or so before I want to use it. Feed it and it pops right back. No need to keep it on your kitchen counter and feed it every 12 hours. Mine was in the fridge for a year and still came right back once I fed it a couple of times.
Sometimes I feel like the vets tell the brand-new newbies relax! Gift of time! He would have already left if he really wanted to! And then when you do relax and aren't freaking out anymore they say don't get your hopes up and why are you holding on so hard? When he wants to R you will KNOW, otherwise you'll be confused. So back off. Maybe we are told what we need to hear when we need to hear it, and it is all about staying the course and DBing away regardless of what your WS is doing around you.
I think I'll make some sort of yummy dessert tonight-- you've inspired me. (I just ate two more delicious chocolates once I read about your cake in the freezer.)
Hang in there!
M
My hair color actually didn’t turn out to be what I was hoping for. The stylist convinced me (I’m easily convinced) to do something lighter and I was a little shocked when it was revealed. I’ve always had bad luck with hair appointments. Lol!!! But I do feel like a new person. It is sort of fun to have a change anyway!!
When posters come to the various forums, they are shocked, emotional and are bouncing all over the place asking themselves what has happened, what have I done to drive this person away, what can I do to bring them back, etc. The lbs tend to ask all sorts of questions and many think that they have driven the spouses away. We attempt to calm the posters down...breathe and take a step back for a bit. Generally, people cannot think straight when they are so shocked and emotional. However, as people begin to settle down, we try to encourage them to focus on themselves and their children and continue on "as if" the spouse may not return. There is never a guarantee that a spouse will return, but by taking the pressure off of him/her, it is giving them the time to think about what they've done or are doing. The begging, pleading, constant contact, etc. doesn't help the lbs convince the wayward/mlc spouses back. In fact, it makes them that much more determined to leave the lbs.
DBing is really about helping you, the lbs. It helps you to to find your footing, to become more independent and helps you to learn how to react to a spouse's behavior. DBing helps to prepare you for whatever may happen. DBing can be used in your day-to-day life w/others as well.
Some of us will post that the lbs needs to prepare for the worse and hope for the better because there is no way that any of us can predict what a spouse will do. I do not encourage following time tables or putting your hopes on percentages because each and every person is unique, childhood is unique and the coping skills are unique. The Board is only a small percentage of people in crisis. There are some who succeed and do not return to post about their success because they are busy creating a new relationship/marriage. However, there are a few that do return and they will advise posters that reconciliation is very difficult because both parties are different after the crisis and a new relationship has to blossom in order for them to continue forward as a couple. Reconciliation is not a walk in a park by any means. It means leaving past behaviors behind and creating a new relationship w/the spouse that had walked away and is now wanting to reconcile.
We advise posters to take what they think they can use from the advise and the rest...ignore. Also, we advise that if something isn't working, try something else. No two situations are alike, but all of them have very similar "traits" in how a crisis begins.
We do hope that each and every poster will find his/her way along the path of self discovery and no matter what the outcome, each and every poster is a success story in my books. Trying to focus on yourselves and doing what you need to do to survive this ordeal takes a lot of courage, strength and patience. As has been pointed out to many, it's a marathon, not a sprint and you will have good days and bad days...because we are all human. There will be days when you want to throw in the towel and question whether it is the right thing to do. If you question if it's the right thing to do, then you aren't ready to call it quits. You, and only you, will know when you have had enough and will know what you need to do to move forward w/your life.
Take the time while your spouse is out there and rediscover you. You will be surprised at what you learn about yourself along the way.
I don't know if I should post this--it seems so trivial, in light of everything--but he bought a record player and set it up in his room. Ours hasn't worked for years, so our records have just set there, waiting to be listened to. We talked about getting a new one but never made it a priority. He never seemed that interested. Now he's buying records again. I feel angry, and though I know that will pass pretty quickly, I still feel it. It's like he's reaching back to the time we were in college, but keeping everything contained in his room bubble, separate from me. I guess I should be glad he didn't set it up at his (girl) friend's house or someone else's house, but my immediate reaction is, Why won't he just move out?!
cardinal,
You are seeing a teenager/young adult at play. You may see a lot more of this behavior. MLC is all about the past and they do go back in time and revisit all areas of their past lives.
Why won't he move out? There are a number of possible reasons: 1) he's comfortable in your home; 2) he feels no pressure from you, but the minute you start pressuring him about something, he'll threaten a move, etc.; 3) it's cheaper to live at home w/"mom"; and 4) maybe the girlfriend doesn't have the proper space for him to move in.
Have you read HaWho's postings? Her h behaved like a teenager/young adult for quite some time and lived in the basement dorm room for a while until he finally moved out.
All those possible reasons and probably more! I tend to think it's another step that would be more reality than fun fantasy, and that's part of it. I don't even think I feel a need to know an answer to the question, so much as I know the fact that he's still here is making it harder for me to move on as much as I could be by this point. If he needs to leave and go try out this new life for real, sometimes I feel like the sooner that happens, the better, in the long run, and I get frustrated. Probably me wanting to control this process again.
I have read HaWho's postings. I wish we had a basement! Ha. I have to walk by his room every time I go in or out of the house. He's seemed so much less teenagerish this year in some ways, and it's not a stretch to think this is just him getting back to something he/we both loved. Part of his journey to find out who he is again. Either way, it's his journey, and I can't control it, so if I can get to a place where I can let go of all of these things he does as soon as I notice them, that would be ideal.
So, obviously, I also haven't reached the stage where he could tell me he's had an orgy with 22 women, and I respond with a shrug (outwardly, maybe, but inwardly is a different story). Every time I see some glimpse of this friend, my emotions skyrocket for a bit. His best friend was a woman for our entire marriage and it never bothered me—he was unhappy with that relationship too, so the new friend is, he thinks, a much better replacement. Whenever I imagine it could be more than friendship, it takes a lot of effort to push it out of my mind and refocus on anything else. I feel naive or dumb. I feel my self-confidence slipping. I feel myself expending too much energy on someone I don't know. Logically: it's not about me! It's not about her! It's about him. Emotionally: Why not me? How do you all do it? How do you stay so strong?
Since he's started being gone every evening again, I feel myself wanting to initiate more conversation with him; whereas, when he was around every day, it felt more like he was pursuing me, and I was totally fine with not engaging at all. Now I want to ask him about the records, just have a fun conversation with him about music. But I sense he wouldn't want a conversation the way he did a couple weeks ago. I feel the power shifting, and it's because I'm giving him that power in my mind. I will not engage him, won't do that dance. I need to get back to indifference. I'll continue to let him engage me, and if he doesn't want to do that for a while, fine.
More proof that I'm zigzagging on this journey. I just have to keep going.
Hi
You are definitely doing great
Not an easy place to be watching the person you love be so distant and not knowing where anything is going
and It is the dance we all have to do
This is a temporary place and the more you can continue being detached but cordial and kind while also creating a new life, new hobbies, new activities and friends
will be best for you...only time will really tell what he does
Cardinal, I just want you to know I do come in here and check on you often. I just usually keep my mouth shut, because the MLC stuff with waywardness is just so much more messy than my little sitch. On top of that the years you guys have I can't compete with. Compared to most marriages on this entire forum we're barely married. It feels inadequate.
That being said May has reminded me regularly that this isn't a straight path. It's a winding journey. It's ok to feel rocked and like you're slipping. We are all there. And we're all here with you
Cardinal-we really are dealing with similar feelings. My H is not going out like yours is, but in the last week there seems to have been a power shift and I feel like I can’t even attempt a conversation, when just last Sunday, five days ago, he brought home food to share. What happened? I have no idea.
You mentioned zig zagging on your journey, and I think you have me along doing the same. Hang in there.
Hi Cardinal,
Thinking of you. A couple questions I was wondering about:
I know the fact that he's still here is making it harder for me to move on as much as I could be by this point. If he needs to leave and go try out this new life for real, sometimes I feel like the sooner that happens, the better, in the long run, and I get frustrated. Probably me wanting to control this process again.
Do you want him to MO?
I mean, it is totally legit if you do. And also totally legit if you don't. One thing that some of the drama on my thread and this MC have helped me to clarify is what *I* want, right now. And I decided I wanted to stand. I don't want him to MO. And I stopped kind of the ping-ponging back and forth of "if he does this or that, I will want him to go" and was able to settle more into the present, uncomfortable as it may be, that I want him to stay even under the circumstances that he isn't presenting all the necessary prerequisites to really R and work on the MR. And I'm OK with that for now.
I guess I might encourage you to really think through what you want. For me, when I would bounce into the "well you better go now" feelings, it was all reactionary to something he had done or said. Whereas for say WF, it feels more like she really does think it best for him to go, it just isn't feasible right at this moment. It feels from reading your posts you might be a little bit more on the preferring him to stay side than move out? I guess it was just helpful for me to be asked straight up by the MC "do you want a D? No? then stop talking about it and reading about it." So I'm passing that same question onto you-- do you want him to MO? If not, then probably your best bet is to try to keep your zen weeding mindset about the annoyances with the record player and not being home and the inappropriate friendship. it is what it is, it isn't under your control, and you're a warrior for standing. Whereas if you do decide it is in your best interest for him to MO, then maybe you want to move that along so that you can start your healing process and he can have his fantasy bubble popped, and you're still a warrior. (Note that I'm not up to speed on all the MLC specific stuff, though I do think my H has some MLC characteristics, so I could be way off target. if so my apologies-- just know it all comes from a place of caring.)
Now I want to ask him about the records, just have a fun conversation with him about music. But I sense he wouldn't want a conversation the way he did a couple weeks ago. I feel the power shifting, and it's because I'm giving him that power in my mind. I will not engage him, won't do that dance. I need to get back to indifference. I'll continue to let him engage me, and if he doesn't want to do that for a while, fine.
Here's another way to take the power back... find someone else to have that conversation with. Reach out to a friend from college who you listened to records with and chat. Buy concert tickets with a friend and go. Continue to be kind to yourself and feed yourself for what YOU need right now, whether it is a conversation about music or an experience to share with a friend. I know you want those experiences and conversations with your H... but that may not be possible right now. But that isn't a reason not to have them.
HUGS.
Cardinal, I have stopped into your thread now and again but don't know your story that well so I may be wrong to chime in. I really appreciated your hug the other day and wanted to chime in before I take my break for Lent.
If you ever have an hour to kill and want to go deep into a pit, read through my threads that started in 2014. It might help you to see what can happen when things don't get better, and you could compare it with Gordie's threads, of what happens when they do.
I just want to encourage you to realize that his moving out will not change anything about his MLC. In other words, pushing him to move out will not, I believe, "encourage" him to leave you. He left you already, in his heart. Getting him out is to give you some protection, some headspace, room to breathe, room to not notice what he is doing or wonder who he is with. If you can get him to leave, I highly encourage it. I don't think you have kids; I think that's the only reason to keep them home, if it provides a way for them to see H. That's why I was glad he stayed, I thought it was better for my kids to have their dad and I knew I could keep them safe if he wasn't taking them physically out of our home. But it wasn't good for them. He slept on the couch and we couldn't even have friends and family over all those years. Living with a depressed rageful man who is having an affair is not better for kids. In my case,his staying in-home spiraled horribly and my son ended up becoming suicidal and didn't start to come out of that depression until I finally got H to move out.
But what I discovered after he left is that I began to be me again.
He will be in MLC whether he lives with you or not. Kicking him out won't teach him anything. Letting him stay won't teach him anything. Living on your own is for you, to get your health back and your peace. Your H can come back to you, the real H to the real you, only when he is out of this tunnel, and where he lives while he is in the tunnel makes no difference to him. But it may make all the difference in the world for you. So that is my two cents with a big XO.
Good Morning cardinal
Ooh, a hunk of cake. Yummmmm.
Remember what they say about the way to a man’s heart.
Straight through the rib cage. Hmmm. That doesn’t seem to have much to do with cake. Might have that wrong.
lol
I hadn't expected it to return for a while, since I'd felt so bad. I was so surprised to feel it surface again.
Earlier in the day, I could not have imagined feeling better again that night. Counterintuitive. I know there will be more days where I feel so, so low and have a hard time finding hope—it's just not a straight line, this journey. I needed a bit of physical and mental distraction in order to let my mind rest and work through things. In the end, it really was like I was challenging my beliefs and didn't realize that's what was happening. I can see myself going through cycles of this—I don't think all of those negative thoughts and feelings are gone for good yet, but now I know they can be replaced. I know they aren't beliefs.
That was a wonderful thing to read.
Yes, this is not a linear path. The journey zigs and zags, circles back, takes off in some other wild direction - eventually the trail smooths out and we look forward to the next curve and the unknown that awaits. The journey is you.
Challenge those beliefs and build them strong.
You just went through a pretty difficult rough patch, and emerged with hope and joy again. You know you are able to do it. You’ve seen yourself do it. Seeing is believing.
Sit quietly and answers do present themselves. I think your yard is going to be weed free and look immaculate.
I want to bring up something may touched on (Hi may).
Maybe we are told what we need to hear when we need to hear it, and it is all about staying the course and DBing away regardless of what your WS is doing around you.
Staying the course is the underlining message. And yes different suggestions are given at different times. It is also a bit of when one needs to hear it and when one is ready to hear it.
And then when you do relax and aren't freaking out anymore they say don't get your hopes up and why are you holding on so hard?
...don’t get your
expectations up...
Don’t let anyone take away your hope. And don’t worry your hope, like beliefs, does change into something self-affirming and reinforcing; a slightly different version, yet the same intent.
cardinal, regarding wanting or wishing H would move out. May and Gerda have given good advice.
Yes, it’s frustrating have a teenage H running around playing his records in his room. And you’re right, too bad you don’t have a basement for I’m pretty sure H would be living down there.
Sit quietly and answers will present themselves. It’s how one can listen to their beliefs. Go weed the yard.
IMO, you do not want H to move out, you just feel like you do. To further that a bit, from someone whose W did move out rather spectacularly.
Is it easier or harder if the MLCer leaves? I don’t know. However, that’s not a question you even need to answer nor consider. The reason: Your regrets will be less if you don’t push them out. Do not manipulate the MLCers path. First it won’t work, and second you’ll feel responsible for whatever happens.
If you need him to move out for your mental health or your physical protection that’s different. Remember focus on you. Make decisions for you.
It’s not physical presence that consumes the LBS. We need to find peace in our mind and heart, for regardless of where our once loving spouse actually resides, they still live within us.
Whenever I imagine it could be more than friendship, it takes a lot of effort to push it out of my mind and refocus on anything else. I feel naive or dumb. I feel my self-confidence slipping. I feel myself expending too much energy on someone I don't know. Logically: it's not about me! It's not about her! It's about him. Emotionally: Why not me? How do you all do it? How do you stay so strong?
You are doing fine cardinal.
Lots of feelings stated that paragraph. That’s good. Acknowledge them. Accept them.
Focus on the rational, the logical part. You are correct it is about him - not you.
How do you all do it? How do you stay so strong?
Find indifference. Let go of your fear; it ties you down.
be gentle on yourself, this part hurts.
Our inner work takes time and reflection. One builds themselves piece by piece; beliefs and strengths. Don’t be afraid to be compassionate and indifferent.
The idea of more than friendship - yeah that’s a tough one to face. Lots of fear there. Lots of imagination running away with thoughts of what ifs over a possible event.
When my wife announced her affair I was crushed. My goodness that fragile male ego.
I could not for the longest time assuage those feelings of worthlessness. She was into someone else, and he was “into” her. Not an attempt to be rude there - just assuring you it hurts just as much for a guy when he is replaced as well.
Our strength and worth doesn’t come from outside. Our spouse doesn’t define it. Their actions, words, behaviours cannot take it away - cannot destroy it.
Yes, at the beginning all seems lost. I wandered aimlessly lost in my dark fog; hurt and so terribly alone.
Then one day you start to rebuild yourself. Understand that you define you. We dust ourselves off and become better instead of bitter. It is a choice one makes, and in that choice one becomes stronger.
This is is most unwanted and wanted journey I’ve ever been forced upon.
Choose hope, understanding, and compassion. It leads to such good things.
DnJ
Hey Cardinal,
Just checking by to see how things are going, and you’re doing.
PLC
Dear everyone, thank you so much for your wisdom, your words, your questions, your thoughts. I made it through the weekend!
PLC, thanks for checking on me. Wayfarer, I so appreciate you reading along, even if you don't have advice, though I feel like I already get so much from following along with your thread. I don't have kids—I often feel inadequate to chime in on threads because of that. But I think it's the mix of perspectives and experience that is helpful. May, you are so good about asking people the questions they need to hear and consider (Also, good to know I can actually neglect the sourdough starter for some time! You're moving me a step closer to ordering some...).
Do I want him to MO? No. That is not hard for me to answer. My "why won't he go" feelings are totally reactionary. It is exactly as you say, DnJ: I don't want him to move out, I just feel like I do. Gerda and peacetoday, thank you for offering your thoughts and support as well. It all comes back to me, again—focus on me. In the long run, MO or not probably doesn't matter much.
Find indifference. Let go of your fear; it ties you down.
I know one part of finding acceptance in how things are now is to let go of fear of how things may be. My mind protests: I chose to spend my life with this man, I still want that, etc, etc. But: it doesn't matter how much my mind protests or how much I love him or how much I don't want D or dread not having him in my life. As in, none of that wanting or not-wanting will affect what happens ten days from now or ten years. It is all energy better put toward other things. Yet I still wake up with a pit in my stomach some days full of love and longing and, yeah, still a tiny bit of disbelief. Maybe right now I can't let go of my fear. Maybe I should at least accept
that. I'm afraid he'll walk out of my life and our time spent together will only be in memories. How do I let go of that fear? I can meet with L and get info and feel less afraid of D. But that fear... I think it drives every other one. It's hard enough to live with him and not have the interactions I'd like (though, from reading other threads, like Pommy's, I know it's just awful and hard in a different way when the WAS is, like, hanging out in the MBR like it means nothing, or, like WF's, when they seem to not be able to make up their minds!).
I did mute my fear for a bit this weekend, but I don't think that's the same as letting go. H was home for the entire evening and next day, the first time in two weeks, feeling sick I think. He seemed about as comfortable with me as before, same level of new-year thaw. Asked me if I needed anything at the store, brought me some candy to try, started tiny conversations.
Saturday night he started playing a record in his room, not super loud, but our house is so small, you can hear the music in pretty much every room anyway. I haven't been able to listen to anything much other than jazz or classical since BD. It makes me too sad. (This weekend, I caught the first part of a song on the radio, and the lyric was, "Find a love you can wait for...." It looks like I've done that!) At first, I felt like I wanted to scream. I'd already felt emotional and wasn't expecting him to be home. He still hadn't said, Hey, I got a record player! I wanted to cry. I tried to calm my feelings. I told myself he wasn't playing music to spite me or hurt me, he hadn't gotten the record player for that reason... I began to look at it as an opportunity to listen to music "with" him.
I'm usually home on Sundays, but I left for a few hours to have some fun away from the house and H. I bought a rose bush, planted it, felt good. Every time I plant something in the ground, I feel like I'm planting hope. This is the time of year I look forward to new growth on every plant, even the ones that appear to be dead. Worked in the yard, inside found H playing our old records, one of our favorites. Gut reaction: How can he listen to this stuff? How can it not bother him! I muted my memories and fear. I went by his room and said, Haven't heard this in a while! We talked about the records for a bit. I sang along, went back to what I'd been doing. He stayed around all day and made himself dinner for the first time in weeks, so I decided to get dressed up and go out. It was a nice day with him there.
So, yeah... I don't want him to move out. I want the record player to move in to the living room.
(One other thing I forgot to add: it's kind of notable that H is listening to music without headphones, since he spent the first 6 months after BD with headphones on almost all the time when he was in the house with me (and even outside of the house, when I ran into him, he was wearing headphones). In that sense, he was sort of sharing the records with me, I suppose.)
Hi Cardinal!
Looks like you had a nice weekend. Good.
It’s funny, the little changes we see in our H’s that to someone on the outside of this “bubble” would think it is so insignificant. Yours is the music playing without headphones, mine is playing with the dogs and saying hi to me.
Things i took for granted, then did not experience for at least 7 months. I take these little steps as minor thaws still. Nothing to jump ahead and say things are going great, but they aren’t worse, either. My H actually sat in the room with me watching the tv for two whole hours yesterday. I was happy, but then, I also felt a little annoyed. I have gotten used to having the house basically to myself for almost ten months. It made me realize that as these thaws progress ( so slowly) I have really been GAL, learning and adjusting to counting on me only.
Keep planting things, hopefully your spring will bloom full of promise!
PLC
Good Morning cardinal
Well done with the music. I think 95% of all songs about love.
My goodness those can tug on the heart.
Remaining calm, speaking to H, sing a long a bit, and then
going back to what you were doing. That is great.
Yet I still wake up with a pit in my stomach some days full of love and longing and, yeah, still a tiny bit of disbelief.
Yes, this does take time. Be patient and stay the course. One day, and sooner than you feel, you wake up and realize you don’t feel that way. You realize you haven’t for quite a few mornings, and it has gone unnoticed.
The love and longing, the disbelief; all those emotions attenuate, lessen greatly. It’s so welcomed and unwelcome at the same time. Indifference is a strange place. Don’t worry your loving feelings do return later - just without all the unwanted triggers. And disbelief and shock do become acceptance.
I strangely missed that pit in my stomach feeling. In the weeks after I even tried to find it again; it’s interesting what we cling to. Letting go is difficult.
Maybe right now I can't let go of my fear. Maybe I should at least accept that. I'm afraid he'll walk out of my life and our time spent together will only be in memories. How do I let go of that fear?
It starts with exactly what you’re doing. Acknowledging where you are and where you are heading.
I do think you and I are cut of similar cloth; we both need a certain about of understanding before we can move forward, let go, accept, whatever it is we are doing.
Fear is that irrational grip from possible future events.
You are afraid of him walking out, your life and his, all that time, will exist only in memory. I lived, and live that.
Our lives, our past,
only exists in memory.
Yes it does influence and affect the present and the future. However, the past is immutable. The present is here and now. And we look to the future.
How do you let go of that fear? You first recognize it. You fear a future where all that remains is your memories. There are many possibilities, the future is unknown, and that may or may not happen.
When something we fear happens, it becomes present, it becomes here and now. No longer a future possibility, since it is now an event, we deal with it as a concern.
Rationalize and logically uncouple your fear. You presently live a more or less roommate life. You’re still here. You’re doing great. Life is good.
Let go your past. Live the here and now. Embrace and look towards your unknown future. Your future, not H’s, not your’s and H’s - your future.
I do not know what your future holds. I do know it will not be like your past; you have grown and changed and will not accept things as they were. Your future is bright and better. And nothing to fear.
that fear... I think it drives every other one.
Very good. Think it. Rationalize it.
This fear does affect others doesn’t it?
Let go of control and fear, and much falls into place.
DnJ
I would love a little advice on something that just came up this morning, but first let me circle back to fear, control, detachment...
Looks like you had a nice weekend. Good.
You know what? I did. If I just focus on the present moment, I totally did.
Rationalize and logically uncouple your fear. You presently live a more or less roommate life. You’re still here. You’re doing great. Life is good.
Let go your past. Live the here and now. Embrace and look towards your unknown future. Your future, not H’s, not your’s and H’s - your future.
I know I can do this, because I
do find myself living in the present much more than I used to, able to appreciate the sun, a book I'm reading, a cake I baked, all of that and more. I think I spend too much energy being frustrated with myself when I spiral away from that in-the-present thinking and get caught up in all the feelings that elemental fear brings with it (only memories of H, no future H, all that). I will try to observe the fear when it feels overwhelming, uncouple it, but not dwell in it or on it. That is something I can control, even if it takes practice.
And, Wayfarer, posting this from IronWill's thread as a reminder to me too (I know DnJ has said as much also!):
Dropping the rope isn't letting go of hope. Dropping the rope is letting go of fear, expectations, and control. Hope exists outside of what our WS/WAS are doing. Hope is for us. Not them. Letting go of the fear frees us, not them. Letting go of the control and expectations frees both of us.
Patience, I am cultivating. Dig deeper for patience, time is your friend--these phrases bring me comfort. I have moments of giving up control and therefore fear, then feeling lighter, freer, but they come and go. I'm ready (impatient!) for this to be a permanent state of mind. No surprise, I'm also very type A! Do you find this has happened for you through conscious work, or mostly subconscious? BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME. Haha. May also mentioned it being a process beginning with acceptance. This all makes so much sense, and I think I make progress in understanding it logically, but I haven't fully internalized it. I think there is still part of my brain (or maybe it's the emotional part of me) that equates dropping the rope with giving up hope, even though I don't believe that is true.
Actually, all advice on that process is
always welcome, but I would also appreciate advice on something else this morning. Our longtime landlord emailed our joint email account (not really sure how often H still checks it, though it used to be on his phone) to say she's raising our rent a bit, and that we can keep going as we have been, month to month, or she's happy to send over a year lease at any point—up to us. The rent increase is the first in a long time and still a good price, though it does make me anxious, as it just means it will be that much more challenging to take on all the expenses on my own, should it come to that. I've mostly accepted that is out of my control—I'm applying for better jobs, and that is all I can do at the moment.
My plan is to not say anything to H about the email, because I assume he will read it at some point, or notice the small rent increase when it happens in a couple of months. Based on his action or lack of action the last several months, I don't think he will say anything and will be content to just stick with our month-to-month lease, as it allows him to not commit to anything and not to think about the future. He seems more comfortable with just living in the present and, as far as I can tell, has no specific ideas of what his life will or will not look like in the future, because he doesn't want to think about that. I know he wouldn't have an objection to the rent increase either. Does this approach make sense?
Hi cardinal
I think that you could mention the increase sometime in passing. Something light.
Hey H, did you see the rent is going up $20/month. Hmmm. That’s the first increase in quite sometime.
I think you are right, he will most likely be content with the month to month arrangements. And this “news” may not get more than a grunt from him.
DnJ
Thanks for the input, DnJ. I don’t feel a rush to bring it up. I doubt he will.
The increase in rent has made me feel again how dependent I am on him financially to live. I tried to push that thought out of my mind today, since it’s out of my control for now. This evening I found out I didn’t get the very PT gig I interviewed for a couple of weekends ago, which wouldn’t have helped much anyway, but the news did get me down. I was hoping I would come home to a house without H and could just have a quiet night, try to cheer myself up. He was gone and just as I started my dinner he came back and immediately put on a record he got, it appears, at a concert last night. It’s grating on me, though I’m trying to channel the PMA I had this weekend. It took a lot of energy to enjoy the music then. Tonight I just don’t have that energy. I’m trying and failing not to think about every concert we went to when we were younger. I’m angry that he seems to be reliving that life without me, and it’s not even something I’d want to do for myself, see bands, because I don’t get pleasure from music right now. I’m sure that will return eventually, but now I just crave quiet.
I know his running off to concerts is not directed at me. Why does it hurt me? The music drifts through the house, and to me it screams: Your H is your roommate! He is home and not even talking to you! Can you believe how things have turned out?! I have trouble mentally separating myself from him and the situation when there’s an H-imposed soundtrack.
So I should go to my room and put headphones on? Turn on the TV like I had planned and let it compete with his music? I just want to be alone here right now.
Before I go to sleep, I want to post that I think I’ve reined myself in a little bit. (It was helpful to vent here!) I just kept reading a book where I sat, first on the verge of crying and then mildly annoyed. I eventually thought of a few things that helped me find some compassion.
1. Maybe music is actually an escape from the situation for H, though it’s the opposite for me. In our relationship, it became very clear over time that our brains worked very differently: mine was constantly running through everything, processing even things I didn’t want to think about. H was always like, I don’t think about anything I don’t want to, I don’t worry, I don’t stress, etc. And I could say now (and have said since BD!) that this way of living/compartmentalizing clearly has its downsides, since H didn’t know how to process his own feelings or make them heard. But my way has downsides too (worrying about future I can’t control!). So it is totally likely we would have opposite responses to music in a time like this. For H, it could very well be an escape from his thoughts and feelings, a way to tune them out, not bring them to the surface.
2. Maybe all this music and concert-going is returning H to a time when he was younger, and it’s comforting because he was worry-free during that time; everything seemed simple and good. For me, thinking of the past this way is painful, because I associate it with our R, with happier times that throw this time into horrible relief, but for him, it could be another way of escaping the emotions he found himself tangled in as he got older.
How could he listen to this music and not mourn the way things were with us, not associate it with the love we had? That’s the question that bothers me always. It feels cold to me. But in asking it of him, I’m assuming his brain is my brain. I’m assuming he confronts feelings head on like I do because I’m incapable of ignoring mine. But this is not the way he operates. Of course I am struggling to process all of these strong, present feelings in my head, just like I’ve always done; of course he is likely able to set any feelings aside and think only about things like what concert he will go to next and how to keep himself busy (and not thinking), like he has always done.
As I was typing this, H just came by the bedroom to tell me he’s dog/house-sitting and will be gone more over the next several days, so... I should appreciate he let me know.
Good Morning cardinal
I’m sorry you didn’t get the gig. Yeah, very part time wouldn’t have made much financial difference; still I do empathize with how it got you feeling down. (((cardinal)))
I also agree, directly competing with the H imposed soundtrack (ie cranking up the TV) is not a good idea. I found fighting fire with fire usually gets everyone burnt. Imagine this - you are carrying a bucket of gas and a bucket of water. You can pour either one on the burning situation.
Well done finding compassion within this. Nice and clear, logical, and empathic. H’s path is all about him, not you. It is about his escape from his torment; reliving a past time when he was emotional stunted and hopefully growing up from there.
How could he listen to this music and not mourn the way things were with us, not associate it with the love we had? That’s the question that bothers me always. It feels cold to me.
You said it well. You
are were assuming his brain is your brain. Were assuming that he will tackle problems the way you do.
We view based upon our perceptions.
Of course I am struggling to process all of these strong, present feelings in my head, just like I’ve always done;
Be gentle with yourself. These are big strong feelings. And yet they will flit away. Answers do come at the most incredible times; times of quiet and almost not even considering the situation. Like finding more compassion while reading a book.
of course he is likely able to set any feelings aside and think only about things like what concert he will go to next and how to keep himself busy (and not thinking), like he has always done.
Be careful with this. Yes H is unable to face his emotions. But a person in crisis cannot set their feelings aside; their feelings are cranked to 11. They run from their feelings and pain. They need to run. They are driven to run. They feel too much when they slow from running. It is a horrible way to live.
How could he listen to this music and not mourn the way things were with us, not associate it with the love we had?
He has run from his emotions. Back in time. While he is at that place and time, he is really emotionally living there and then. Whatever and whenever his trauma(s) were, he needs to relive those moments. You were not around then. He was not married then. For that young hurting H, there is nothing to mourn, there is no “us”.
Now he does realize his life, you and him, love, marriage, etc. And with all he is struggling with, he cannot handle anymore so he ignores and buries his history and marriage. The no pressure advice speaks directly to this. If there is too much pressure he will run.
If he can, he slowly will face and grow from his trauma. This is a marathon not a sprint. You will need compassion and indifference to outlast his MLC.
You are doing well. Really well.
Continue to focus on you.
DnJ
Dropping the rope isn't letting go of hope. Dropping the rope is letting go of fear, expectations, and control. Hope exists outside of what our WS/WAS are doing. Hope is for us. Not them. Letting go of the fear frees us, not them. Letting go of the control and expectations frees both of us.
Patience, I am cultivating. Dig deeper for patience, time is your friend--these phrases bring me comfort. I have moments of giving up control and therefore fear, then feeling lighter, freer, but they come and go. I'm ready (impatient!) for this to be a permanent state of mind. No surprise, I'm also very type A! Do you find this has happened for you through conscious work, or mostly subconscious? BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME. Haha. May also mentioned it being a process beginning with acceptance. This all makes so much sense, and I think I make progress in understanding it logically, but I haven't fully internalized it. I think there is still part of my brain (or maybe it's the emotional part of me) that equates dropping the rope with giving up hope, even though I don't believe that is true.
So when I'm forced to talk about the affair, and I have to talk about myself, because to be honest most people are interested in WH's newest behaviors because he is like fireballing his way through the stages of an affair at this point, I tell people as terrible as this situation is, I'm glad it happened. My depression, my grief, the weird codependency circle my H and I were participating in, I had completely and totally lost myself. My GALing and 180s have made me find her again. And I really like her a lot. The other huge thing that this has done for me is challenge my most A type traits. This has been a HUGE exercise in patience and relinquishing control. I have very little patience. And for a multitude of reasons I like to be in control at all times. This mess, this craziness I'm in with my H, I have zero control over anything but me, and to the best of my ability barriers I could put between his crazy and our girls when he was deep in it. Any teeny bit of control I tried to take the alien would immediately snatch out from under me and say something horrible in the process. (I really do think WS's are just absolutely the worst version of themselves early on so you can be prepared for the roller coaster that's coming) One thing I am not is a slow learner. Letting go of the control was the only way to survive in the beginning. And with the control being relinquished patience came. I don't get to work on my time clock. If I did when I told him he was in an EA he would've stopped. Or when he realized he was. Or when he thought being with her in public all the time was a good idea and he was confronted by not only me but others wondering where his wife was. But we are working on the time clock of a person in emotional crisis, not at the level your H is but same thought process. I can't hope for an R ever if I want things on my time. And honestly I need to let the love of my life figure out his issues and how to deal with them on his own. I can't fix this for him. I have to end the codependency. He can only fix himself. So patience is both conscious and unconscious.
As far as your H's music. My WH started playing all these love songs when things started getting hot and heavy with OW I may or may not have unplugged the wifi and plugged it back in right quick. But I'm petty like that, and with an MLCer and an actually record player I don't know that I would recommend that level of petty for you. With your H though, if you think he's having an approachable day you might want to just stick your head in and say I love that song, and walk away. I think that falls well with in the guidelines of friendly neighbor. If you look like you don't care about the music he may be less of a rebellious teenager about it. Next, you can't have the expectation that he thinks or feels the way you do. Or they way he used to. Or that he functions on the levels of a healthy person. He doesn't. He thinks only of himself and right now probably what ever that music is bringing up. If it's too much you might want to think about noise cancelling head phones. Or long walks.....I live with 2 teenagers. You won't win a loud music argument with a teenager and you're currently working with a teenager.
On the music thread... I found these Spotify playlists H had made from summer 2018 and fall 2019 with all these stupid love songs and breakup songs on them. Made me want to vomit. (When I found them it was before I realized that he had been involved with her in summer 2018, so was wondering what it was all about... like was he sad about the direction of our R since that was a time we had been fighting a ton and he was being evil alien H?) Anyway, music is a powerful thing but, as you say, can have really different meanings for different people, and for the same people at different times in our lives. And agree with everyone that doing or saying anything about it probably isn't a great idea. Although would there be anything wrong with poking your head in and saying hey do you mind turning that down? I am trying to watch TV.
I don't think I'd say anything about the rent either. I just don't see the possible upside to it, whereas I could imagine it could push forward an R convo that might not be a positive thing right now.
(((Cardinal)))
I often wondered the same about my XH
he clearly let go easily without to much pain
while I sat with all the grief and loss
How could he just let go?
I thought about this a lot
I think you have a great point
they process things differently and maybe MLC also adds to this because the fantasy of the new mis intoxicating
while the old seems boring to a MLC mind
But in the end the tables flip and I have seen first hand this part
we who choose to do the work, heal and let go stand strong in a new powerful life, while the MLC life continues to crumble
This is not what I would wish for them...but I see it to be true for many
Cardinal, thanks for stopping by my thread. Especially because it nudged me to go find yours. It sounds like wherever you are it is warm enough to a little work outside. I envy you! Where I am it is snowing today. I do have my seed orders placed and in a few weeks I'll start the tomatoes under the grow lights. I wish it were garden season already because I do love pulling weeds and it is a great form of meditation. I love digging in the dirt. Anyway, since it is snowing here, this afternoon I went all the way back to the beginning of your story in the first thread and am now caught up. I agree that there is much similarity in the things that our H's have said! I am sure you must struggle with sadness, sorrow, anger... all those human emotions anyone in our sich would have. But I also see much strength and serenity in so many of your posts. Such calm and peace and zen. So be proud of that! And I see you really trying to grow and be a better person in the midst of all of this. I am still reeling with a roller coaster of emotions. It is all very new and raw so I am a long way away from that point in the future when I look back and have gratitude for the opportunity this pain gave me to grow. I understand your financial stress too. No amount of "I will be okay no matter what" actually pays the mortgage or puts food on the table. And yet it is essential to start with that one sentence. I will be okay no matter what. My kids will be okay no matter what.
And if you like water at all, maybe give water aerobics a try! I've been doing it for a while. I do the "old lady" classes in the warm therapy pool. It is pure joy. Our wellness center has a wall of windows looking out over the mountains and so you just float there, feeling weightless and magical and you see nothing but the edge of the water against the mountains and sky in the distance.
But in asking it of him, I’m assuming his brain is my brain.
Good job of reminding yourself that!! That is really the key. Not only the timeline is different, your H’s brain probably processes things differently also.
Stay strong!
Cardinal, (I’m back and caught up with current on-goings). Our stories, H’s behaviour and our own feelings continue to mirror each other in such a huge way. I hesitate to offer advice on here especially while I struggle in many of the same ways...but I get the sense that letting go/detaching, fears and not being kind to ourselves are tricky areas to process for you or at least keep resurfacing when we aren’t living in the present...as they are and do for me.
I think I spend too much energy being frustrated with myself when I spiral away from that in-the-present thinking and get caught up in all the feelings that elemental fear brings with it (only memories of H, no future H, all that). I will try to observe the fear when it feels overwhelming, uncouple it, but not dwell in it or on it. That is something I can control, even if it takes practice.
MEEEE too. ^^^ it’s very difficult to replace these feelings of “no future with H”, the life and securities we’ve built with our H’s with anything but hope. I search for something more concrete but feel it doesn’t exist. DnJ and Job do a great job of reminding us to as you say let it wash over us but don’t dwell.
And, Wayfarer, posting this from IronWill's thread as a reminder to me too (I know DnJ has said as much also!):
Dropping the rope isn't letting go of hope. Dropping the rope is letting go of fear, expectations, and control. Hope exists outside of what our WS/WAS are doing. Hope is for us. Not them. Letting go of the fear frees us, not them. Letting go of the control and expectations frees both of us.
Patience, I am cultivating. Dig deeper for patience, time is your friend--these phrases bring me comfort. I have moments of giving up control and therefore fear, then feeling lighter, freer, but they come and go. I'm ready (impatient!) for this to be a permanent state of mind. No surprise, I'm also very type A! Do you find this has happened for you through conscious work, or mostly subconscious? BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME. Haha. May also mentioned it being a process beginning with acceptance. This all makes so much sense, and I think I make progress in understanding it logically, but I haven't fully internalized it. I think there is still part of my brain (or maybe it's the emotional part of me) that equates dropping the rope with giving up hope, even though I don't believe that is true.
I don’t know if this will help or not (and I wish I could remember who’s post I saw it on) because the way I write it won’t do it justice ...but I’ll give it a shot. I’m such a visual person and this helps me to remember to let go - it doesn’t mean give up.
*** Picture a person walking along the beach with their dog on a really long leash. The dog is enjoying running ahead, playing in the water, chasing birds, doing doggy things. Opposite to the water is a mess of thick brush and downed trees. The dog runs off miles ahead (while the owner still holds the leash) chasing after something and gets himself all tangled up in the brush and thick mess of branches and his leash. The owners first response is to hold the leash tighter so the dog doesn’t break free or get lost by continuing to run further. But the dog just gets more and more tangled. The owner has no choice but to let go of the leash and allow the dog to detangle himself free of the “rope” that is holding him back from getting out of the tangled branches and mess. The dog will choose to run back to its owner or continue ‘chasing’.***
If someone recognizes the above pls take credit for it and thank you for helping me to see that letting go of the rope is not giving up, it’s letting go of control. It’s detaching. We can’t control which way our H’s will go, but we can loosen the leash to allow them the freedom to choose what they will. By holding on tight we create a suffocating, tangled mess.
Now if I could just continuously live this I’d be in much better shape. But one day at a time. I hope that visual can help you a little Cardinal with “fear, control and detachment”.
Big hugs (((Cardinal)))
You all already know this, but what a gift to feel less alone going through all of this. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and offer your advice and support! It's been busy at work and I haven't had time to reply, but I've been reading your posts.
Earlier this week I texted H for the first time in forever to joke about something that came in the mail for him. I just wanted to share the joke and realized I didn't care if he texted me back or not, so I went for it. That's a big difference from five or six months ago when it hurt every day we didn't text. He joked back, though, a nice surprise. No expectations.
I also came home to an envelope from the courthouse and had a moment where all of my emotions seemed to freeze. It was an invitation to apply to serve on a grand jury. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why I've been feeling more pessimistic re: D today.
Kindly, that dog & leash analogy is helpful—thank you for sharing it here! I was thinking about that today when I replied to HopeCA's post about feeling like the more I try to force new levels of detachment, the less it happens. I feel like I'm doing all I can at the moment to drop the leash, but I just don't have that internal feeling of having dropped it. I feel like I'm trying to rush through all of this and maybe I have to allow it to happen on its own timeline. Maybe I'm trying so hard I don't notice incremental progress.
When H told me he'd be dog/house-sitting for the next several days, I felt a mixture of sadness and relief. He made it a point to say it was just down the street. A couple of months ago, he wouldn't have said anything, and I'd just be wondering why he was suddenly gone at night. He said he'd be in and out but mostly there, and the last two nights I've been alone, unless you count his stopping by the house to grab a few cooking supplies. On the one hand, this gives me some more time to myself; on the other, my brain wants to jump to the worry that he'll move out at some point. I got a little pang in my chest when I saw the items he took over with him, had to stop myself from spending time imagining him taking more and more and more until nothing is left. I've been better at not dwelling on the unknown future, but I am starting to feel a bit of melancholy coming home to an empty house and waking up to an empty house, and that worry is edging into my thoughts more than I'd like it to. I try to turn my mind back to the present instead, remind myself that all of my fears aren't reality right this second, so why focus on them? At least I'll be able to get out in the yard tomorrow—that should bring my mind back to the present.
Hi Cardinal, hope you were able to get out into your garden! I’m envious ...mine is under a foot of snow still. Can’t wait to see the asparagus poking through the soil! Gardening is such a great mental de-stressor for me too. Keep up the PMA the best you can...let’s continue to focus on us. We got this.
H popped in a couple times yesterday, engaged with me briefly, then said bye when he left, which is rare. It was nice to feel acknowledged in that basic way. I made orange shortbread cookies; since I’m thinking up ways to use all the fresh oranges gifted by a friend. It’s been windy, so I haven’t done much outside yet, but I did try starting some seeds inside. Kindly, I often wish it would snow here! But a thaw is on its way to you, spring is on the way.
These words May wrote to Wayfarer struck me this morning:
Know also that he may feel that he has done so much damage to your R that it is not fixable in his mind right now. I know my H has said this before too-- he can't imagine me ever forgiving him or him ever forgiving himself. There may be that element to it also.
And, your H has bought so deeply into the idea that your M was over that it might not be that easy for him to let go of it... in fact his ego may not let him. Think of it this way-- if his story is that your M wasn't working and wasn't fixable and he turned to the OW, it makes him less of a bad guy for cheating because well your M was doomed anyway. If he admits to himself that the M is fixable, then it makes everything he's done so, so much worse. So by maintaining he's going to leave is also kind of preserving his own sense of self and his vision of why he did what he did.
Still no idea if my H has ever had EA or PA, but during BD and November R talk he said that our marriage is unfixable, that others said that too, that his IC agreed (which I didn’t/don’t buy—he’s hearing what he wants or twisting her words somehow). In other words, he was seeking out reassurance and finding it wherever he needed to. Where he didn’t find it, he probably didn’t listen. So it wouldn’t surprise me if this was/is his mindset too. If it’s fixable, he is being a bit selfish, when he seemed to need to push back against that fear—not selfish, just finally putting himself first. And then in that R talk he seemed to contradict the unfixable pronouncement by acknowledging that I have changed, but he’s afraid if we tried he’d be hurt again, all of that stuff.
All of that seems quite common here. I’m wondering: How do any of these WAS change their perspectives? Obviously some do. We can’t do it for them. It seems a big factor is time—they need time and distance to perhaps begin to see possibility where they saw only justifications for their leaving before.
Cardinal, I imagine going into your house and just smelling all the fresh baked goods....yumm!! How can your H walk away from that?!
Ego, pride, whatever it is....when they are not ready, just let it be. It easy to run. It takes hard work to face your choices and suffer the consequences. I imagine not many WAS can gather up the strength to do so.
I do think it is some combination of them feeling like it is all just easier/safer/smarter to cut bait on the old R and start afresh. They also see more of the damage to the R than we do, I bet, since they know what they've done or thought outside of the MR (whether an actual A or the thinking about it) and we only know what percentage of that we've been told or found out. And, by standing, we're all saying that we believe in this R and that it is fixable-- and therefore focusing on the positive-- and they're in the opposite corner, focusing on the negative and all that. I think cognitive dissonance plays a huge role too, especially with infidelity (would need to think on it more if there wasn't an OW involved)-- no-one wants to think of themselves as an immoral person, and the vast majority of people believe infidelity is immoral (Esther Perel says the only sin that gets TWO commandments, one for doing it and one for just thinking about it)-- so therefore in order to maintain their own image as a good person they need to build up this whole narrative about the M not working anyway, the AP being true love that can't be denied, etc. It has got to be so exhausting to live with those mental gymnastics. I do think space and time are critical factors. No-one can make this choice for them, to let go of the fantasy of what could be outside the M as well as the mirror image dystopian story they've built up about the M and its future-- and in the place of that be able to have the mental fortitude to do the hard work it takes to work on M2.0. It has got to be something they decide to do if it is going to work.
Good morning—I can hear birds singing, someone shoveling, spring sounds.
May and Wooba, DnJ, here's me spending time trying to understand again. Ultimately you're both right that the point is the decision is ultimately the WAS, no matter how they get there. I'm just curious about what it might be like to get to that place. I hope I am not putting any roadblocks up, and I also hope I don't appear to H to be sitting around on my hands waiting for him to go through his journey.
H brought back the stuff that he'd taken with him to house-set this morning. I'd been wondering if we'd walk down the street to vote together like always, or, if not, how he'd possibly avoid that, since we're always there right when the polls open. He said bye and drove off, and I left a few minutes later on foot. Of course he was the only one at the polling place when I arrived. It made it more awkward that he didn't say anything when he left the house, like, See you at the ___, I guess! We waited for it to open and I asked him how the dog-sitting was going. He said it was nice having dogs sleeping on him. He made a weird face, and I pointed that out, and he said, yeah, I'll miss the dogs. He's always wanted a dog, but we had cats (who I know he also really loves). I asked what kind of dogs they were, and he told me a little more about them. We talked a bit about the election.
The poll workers were ready, then, and I was in line behind him. They checked off his name and then mine, and the woman said, "Ah, you're right above your husband in the list." H was a few steps in front of me at that point, but I'm sure he heard. We voted, then waited as the poll workers stumbled charmingly through the next steps, as usually happens when we're the first voters.
Overall it was a bit awkward because we hadn't really seen each other in several days, and when that happens he seems to warm up a bit after the initial interaction. At least, I think he felt awkward at first, and I decided to just act normal, PMA, ask him about the dogs... and by the end we were both kind of laughing together at the antics of the poll workers.
But, ugh, it's just so hard to face the reality again and again that H has put up this wall and we can't just talk like people who've been best friends/M for 16 years! We are not strangers! I mean, there are moments when it feels like we are people with a history who are talking to each other. Maybe moreso lately than in the first six months after BD, when he seemed really angry and withdrawn. But it's still feels so weird to go from being totally at ease with each other, to BD, to no talking mixed with small talk. It seems more "normal" (but maybe also more horrible) in sitches where the WAS is still sometimes interacting with the LBS like an H or W—like that way of being makes more sense to me, because it seems like it would be harder for the WAS to just distance themselves 100%. But maybe I've got that wrong. Maybe it's easier to throw up that distance, easier on the WAS anyway.
I sometimes wonder if he is also protecting himself from feeling feelings about me/about the situation by maintaining his distance in this way. Sometimes it hurts because it feels like indifference on his part, but I don't really believe that it is indifference. It seems more like a way he has to be to cope with his life right now.
I sometimes wonder if he is also protecting himself from feeling feelings about me/about the situation by maintaining his distance in this way. Sometimes it hurts because it feels like indifference on his part, but I don't really believe that it is indifference. It seems more like a way he has to be to cope with his life right now.
I do think it is some combination of them feeling like it is all just easier/safer/smarter to cut bait on the old R and start afresh. They also see more of the damage to the R than we do, I bet, since they know what they've done or thought outside of the MR (whether an actual A or the thinking about it) and we only know what percentage of that we've been told or found out..
....so therefore in order to maintain their own image as a good person they need to build up this whole narrative about the M not working anyway, the AP being true love that can't be denied, etc. It has got to be so exhausting to live with those mental gymnastics. I do think space and time are critical factors. No-one can make this choice for them, to let go of the fantasy of what could be outside the M as well as the mirror image dystopian story they've built up about the M and its future-- and in the place of that be able to have the mental fortitude to do the hard work it takes to work on M2.0. It has got to be something they decide to do if it is going to work.
Ego, pride, whatever it is....when they are not ready, just let it be. It easy to run. It takes hard work to face your choices and suffer the consequences. I imagine not many WAS can gather up the strength to do so.
Cardinal, May and Wooba - all such great and helpful insights into the MLC/WAS way of thinking. In black and white it all seems so accurate and certainly fits the behaviour of my H. Why is it so much easier to take this knowledge and dismiss it as inaccurate and replace it with our narrative that we the LBS have done something wrong to bring this unwanted situation upon ourselves? I’m happy that with time I’m starting to feel that self doubt drift away, not all the time but it is much better! ...I hope you are too Cardinal ...it’s so damaging for our own mental health.
How do any of these WAS change their perspectives? Obviously some do. We can’t do it for them. It seems a big factor is time—they need time and distance to perhaps begin to see possibility where they saw only justifications for their leaving before.
I find this so curious too...I know this is a marathon but when you see NO signs from H of thinking or dealing or “coming around” at all, it really is easy to feel hopeless. I truly feel like running is absolutely easier for him and I don’t see how he stops and deals with the painful emotions of what he’s done on top of what he’s already going through...I’m s-l-o-w-l-y learning to be ok with “time will tell”.
(((Hugs)))
This is a marathon. I've never been a runner--well, once in high school I tried to take it up, running loops around the cemetery down the street. Kindly, you're around seven months now, I'm at around nine. I think I've said this before, but the time has flown by for me. I'm not sure how it feels for you. Maybe I'm better at pacing myself than in the first 6 months. The way I hope has changed--it's a longer-term hope now, more open-ended, on good days, whereas I remember feeling like it seemed so possible that H and I would be going out to dinner, that all this could shift as quickly as it had come, in the first few months after BD. Is it common to also feel bouts of hopelessness as time stretches on? I imagine that settles too as the state of compassionate indifference becomes habit.
I think a positive change in my sitch is that H seems to have slowed down. He's not running himself into the ground every night, his moods have stabilized around me. As I stopped leaving him little notes (usually about practical things, as we were hardly in the house at the same time)--notes he saved and still keeps in an area of his room--and stopped engaging him first since January (mostly! see above election encounter--ha), he has engaged me more. He is still seeing his IC.
Why is he still seeing his IC? I don't imagine he talks about me much--my guess is he sees the R as in the past now--but I hope he is slowly learning more about himself. I think he must have many places in which to compartmentalize past and present pieces of his life, as he manages to be both open to self-exploration with IC and yet closed to exploration of our M and his role in what it was, what it could be.
As I've written before, sometimes I struggle with the fact that this year he has seemed, on the outside, much less volatile, much less angry and depressed. I struggle because I suppose I equate that with "moving on." (Yet I just listed this decreased moodiness as a positive above!) As in, I was the problem--he removed me from his life and he's good now. It really was that simple.
How could it be that simple? Suddenly pull the plug on a 10-year marriage, and everything falls into place! I know it's not that simple.
I suppose it's more than that--it's that I know inside he probably is still struggling with, as DnJ wrote earlier, emotions cranked incredibly high. I feel he's unmoored in himself but appears steady. Maybe even to himself. When I am not rationalizing my anxiety that he is magically all better without me (see above: I know it's not that easy), I worry that he appears stable but is actually silently, slowly spinning of control, just in a much slower, less obvious way than he was last year, while convincing himself everything is perfectly fine; he's perfectly happy. His new friends don't see all the layers of him, which includes old H as much as new H. He spins slowly, out of orbit.
I don't have hold of that rope anymore--maybe I haven't really dropped it yet, but it's frayed, anyway; I can't pull him back. I have to trust that he'll find his way back somehow.
Cardinal,
This post of yours resonates. You see someone putting this distance so defiantly, so sure of themselves and their actions. Then for me, after about 6 or 7 months, a human began to emerge. Why? Was it his thoughts, his processes? Was it my GALing, dropping the rope bit by bit? I am ten months in this month and as you know from my post you posted on, that we have had some hopelessness on my part.
We need to remember that they are on the rollercoaster and we can ride this with them with the ups and downs, but me, I actually would get sick from continually riding, so I will stand off to the side and be there when he decides he’s had enough.
Coming on this board has been a lifesaver. It is sad that so many of us are dealing with this, yet the community has been so helpful. I also would like so have some cookies!
Let’s continue doing our GALing and we can come out even better than when we came here.
PLC
This is a marathon. I've never been a runner--well, once in high school I tried to take it up, running loops around the cemetery down the street. Kindly, you're around seven months now, I'm at around nine. I think I've said this before, but the time has flown by for me. I'm not sure how it feels for you.
Hi Cardinal! I literally just wrote on my page about how I can’t believe 7/8 months have flown by! It’s unreal. (And crazy how on pace we are with each other and thought processes).
I couldn’t agree more with what PLC said ...it’s getting off the rollercoaster and not allowing ourself to ride the crazy up and down ride with our spouse...instead keeping ourself a little more even keel. This community has been so helpful in allowing us to instead choose to get on the rollercoaster with people that are on the same ride as we are. People we can relate to, people that can make us feel less “crazy” with what we are experiencing...reminding us to detach, that we can’t fix H, and to GAL.
Im so glad your H seems to have slowed down and stabilized...maybe it’s the opposite of what your thinking and he could be self reflecting. Maybe IC is helping??? The sad part is we have no control and won’t know until we know.
In my sitch H doesn’t speak at all, is gone for longer periods of time, obsessively working, and wouldn’t dare get any help of any kind because he doesn’t think there is anything at all wrong. I agree it’s soooo difficult when they appear so steady and together.
Keep the baking and gardening going Cardinal ...you are doing very well.
PLC and Kindly, how terrible that our BD dates are all staggered among us, but I'm glad we are here for each other. You both make such great points about the rollercoaster: it's always a good goal to let H ride his own rollercoaster, but when you find your stomach dropping and realize you must've gotten back on, it's wonderful to know there are others here to support you. Also we're sometimes on our own rollercoasters, independent of our WAS, with our own internal ups and downs. I feels important to me to know we can ride though periods of feeling hopeless without losing hope.
I wanted to journal about my own progress today, but then of course reading other threads has brought up some other thoughts, so here goes another long post somehow combining them all. All thoughts, reflections, questions welcome.
1. Thinking about being friends/friendly, friendship as the foundation of the relationship (May's post to Wayfarer reminded me this is something that's been on my mind). One night this week I got home and H was listening to new records in his room. I said hello, continued to kitchen to start my dinner. Felt no frustration from music. Felt no frustration upon discovering H had apparently used an ingredient I thought we'd had. I was calm, positive. One thing I've been working on for me is keeping up my PMA (related to H and just in general, because in the past things could easily get to me), and I was happy to realize I've made progress there.
H came into the kitchen a bit later, excited, to show me a record he'd bought. I acknowledged how cool it was (it was). I told him someone had recently shared with me there were lots of records to be found at X. He left and came in again to bring me a piece of some new candy he'd found. I mentioned I'd filled the living room candy jar with some stuff I'd found after he shared something with me the other week, that I'd eaten most of it already. I see that he's been eating it now. Dang it, candy is our love language. Ha. But it really is. Our love for music (though we'd both stopped listening to it in the house much, as our phones became the only way to really listen) and candy is just one of the things we shared as friends.
I read a lot on here, it seems, about not being in the friend zone, or making it clear that you will not be friends after D, but then the other day I was reading the wisdom from the vets thread, and I was surprised that so much of it was related to making an effort to
stay friends no matter what, and build from there. I know it varies from sitch to sitch, but the vibe in those archived posts felt so much rosier. What do you think?
Wayfarer mentioned she thinks of her H as her person. That resonated with me. H isn't sharing a lot with me, but it's like he can't help himself from sharing some things we would normally be doing together or talking about together—mentioning a TV show, a book, candy, these new records. I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
2. Self-improvement/progress: Sometimes I think—how have I changed for the better since all of this? And I have trouble coming up with concrete examples, because it's hard for me to step outside the sitch and myself and see things from a distance. And because it seems like I haven't had that many interactions with H in which I can put my changes into practice. So many are internal. What would he see that is different? (But... aren't I putting these into practice every day? If I
hadn't been doing this work, I would probably be screaming at him, arguing with him, begging him to reconsider, completely trashed by my emotions and his.) What changes do
I see? I really wanted to challenge myself to recognize some of my hard work.
• Focused on trying to change myself rather than H, exponentially expanded self-awareness, have gotten better at knowing what I can and can't control. H makes his own choices and leads his own life, and I don't interfere. (I don't even clean out the fridge when he leaves something in there forever—I'm letting go of my need to have things done on my timeline and in my way!)
• More compassion, more empathy, more reflection, more patience, more listening rather than speaking. My first instinct is no longer to react defensively or to shift blame. In the few R talks we've had since BD, I remained calm and thoughtful. I focused on letting H talk, and on understanding more about what he was feeling. I asked questions and I validated. And I've made leaps and bounds in understanding H's perspective of the M, as much as I can without talking through it with him. Focused on his perspective, his feelings as no less valid than mine in writing apology letter—letter might not have been the best timing, but I am proud of how much I was able to step out of my perspective (defensiveness, blaming!) and step into his. Better at taking responsibility but not
all responsibility.
• So much patience (This deserves its own entry!)
• Have let go of a lot of resentment, am generally so much better at assuming love and understanding that love is a choice; I have a much deeper understanding of marriage and relationships and how I can be a better partner
• Gradually shifting my general attitude from negative to positive
I'd love to see others' lists! I still feel like I could be more concrete in mine. I'd like to be able to clearly see how I've put these changes into
action. But I guess this desire comes partly from wanting so much to put these changes into action in a new R with H and see how much better it could be.
I've been reading 5LL this week, and I'm realizing how much more it's sinking in than it would have if I would have read it right before or right after BD. You guys, I had just never read anything about relationships before! I didn't realize how many assumptions both H and I had about M. I've read several books now, and I understand why people think a relationship isn't fixable when it is. It's like MWD saying, Start with a beginner's mind. So many R challenges are solvable if even one partner is willing to make positive changes. I hope my H's IC is somehow transferring that idea into H, even if he thinks it's for future Rs. I hope he recognizes, someday, how great the foundation of our friendship is, and how worth working on our M is. Because, like a lot of us here, I am becoming AWOAFWL! I
am AWOAFWL!
HI Cardinal,
I'm glad you seem like you're doing well. I like the story of the exchange re candy and records. What is it with these Hs and a record player? My H has dumped a TON of cash on records. At first I was annoyed and then I realized it was something he loved and why was it really bothering me? Not a lot of $ in the grand scheme.
The friendship part resonates and I think I will read the archived threads. I generally feel like what I read in MWD's books is rosier than a lot of what gets traction here, which partially could be because we're all in pretty dire situations once we get here and the LRT is appropriate. But I've also been reading some blogs online about affair healing from the involved partner's perspective, and while this is all infidelity related and so I don't know if it translates to non-infidelity situations, the LBS's willingness to reestablish connection, the friendship, all those things are important to the recovery. Also, I think a lot of people on these boards are dealing with WSs with whom the friendship is gone and the WS is acting in all ways like a jerk. I do think there is a real difference in our sitchs than those where the WS is actively demonizing the LBS, the home situation is untenable, everyone feels like garbage all the time, etc.
I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
Wow, this is probably true for me as well. I never really contemplated the possibility that we weren't going to be there for each other forever. Literally never crossed my mind until this all started happening. And truthfully it still seems super far-fetched to me to imagine my life without him as my person or his without me even with everything that has happened. I hadn't thought of how the SSM was related to this. For whatever reason I was OK with just being great friends and partners and roommates. Now that isn't good enough anymore.
It's like MWD saying, Start with a beginner's mind. So many R challenges are solvable if even one partner is willing to make positive changes.
I like this too.
Have you read David Brooks' book The Second Mountain? It might be helpful... both to help understand maybe what got your H into the place he is, and for you to get through the valley and into what is next for you. I thought it was really good. It is probably a year since I read it so I can't remember a ton of specifics (read it when I thought my H was having an MLC rather than an A, and now all the infidelity books are crowding that out) but you might like it.
Because, like a lot of us here, I am becoming AWOAFWL! I
am AWOAFWL!
You are!!
Hello cardinal
I enjoyed reading about your pondering and thoughts. I do see your PMA and self focus. The kitchen/record/ingredient went very well.
Friends/friendship/foundation. That is interesting isn’t it?
Yes, a friendship would be required for a rekindling or building a new relationship or marriage. However, I think we need to go through the stage of less friends and more just friendly.
You see my friends don’t treat me like XW did / does. I do love her. And don’t like her.
Another idea for busting a divorce is not being the WAS’s friend. We are the prize. If they want to leave, they don’t have us just sitting there all friends and waiting. As I said, my friends treat me better than that.
Not friends doesn’t mean enemy; that’s where indifference fits into this.
And the love; that’s where compassion fits.
Compassionate indifference.
If our spouse turns back around, does their inner work, find themselves, etc., we unwind our indifference. They are a different person while lost within their emotional crisis, a person who is not our friend. Friendship to a MLCer means much different than what it means to you. Crisis people’s emotions are stunted and immature, and so are their friendships and relationships. When and if they exit their crisis, they return to more of themselves, and to more of the person whom we were friends with.
Indifference, compassion, focus on you, letting go, forgiveness, etc. - are all so important. Firstly to us. And secondly to any possible future relationship. If we focused and fretted over our spouse’s behaviour for all that time, it would eat us alive. Preventing our healing and growth, and destroying any chance of reconciliation.
It is important to separate the person from the behaviour. See each as, and for what they are. They are hurt people, trapped in a fog of despair and confusion, and are not behaving like a friend. Treat the person kindly and with compassion, and enforce necessary boundaries for unacceptable behaviour.
I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
Your strong friendship will make a good foundation. It also let you overlook many things. Your friendship with H needs to grow - at a later time, for he is not ready right now.
Cardinal, that is pretty much the same way I see my XW. Her behaviour is, and was, obviously unfriendly in nature. I am curious how you see my viewpoint.
Self improvement/progress. Oh yes, you have made significant gains.
Your list is very good. I do understand what you mean about wanting it to be more concrete. To feel more concrete. To put those into action.
How to?
Make those permanent. Beliefs. Self reinforcing beliefs. A way of life.
Beliefs take time, they are slow to change.
You are making excellent progress. The concrete “feeling” you seek grows stronger and stronger as more and more days of living by your values accumulate.
As for items on your list, do not forget the ones you already possessed and strengthened. Loyalty, faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, and so on. The progress made here, the strength that these current traits gain is incredible, and once realized add much to that concrete feeling.
You are a woman only a fool would leave. You stand hopeful upon a strong foundation. Continue living forward.
DnJ
Catching up on threads this morning. (And need to write an update myself!) I think I agree with DnJ about the friendship part. When H is waxing poetic about how unsure he is about us, about it all seems so unfixable and the mess he's made with the affair just makes it worse but that no matter what happens, he wants us to always be the best of friends... well that just sounds to me like him trying to soothe his own guilt. It is about making himself feel better. He even said to me that he cannot not bear it if we aren't friends. In fact lately as I listen more and say less what I hear is ALL about HIM. And he is a jumbled mess at the moment. Everything he says and does at the moment seems to be geared towards minimizing his discomfort. Maybe there will be some moment in the future when he actually considers the pain his choices have caused for his wife and family but that is not where he is now. Friendly not friends. I don't want to soothe his guilt. But more than that I think it is a boundary that helps protect my heart right now. It is a struggle though because there is a part of me that thinks being a "good friend" will soften him. Then I remind myself that I was a good friend and extremely supportive all those months when he was "lost" and "trying to find himself again" and generally behaving like an irresponsible teenager. And in my situation, he was slurping that magic kool-aid and lying with every breath and living a double life.
May's observation about holding tightly to the narrative that the problems in the R are insurmountable, unfixable as a way to reconcile the cheating... that makes sense too.
Your self improvement progress is fantastic! You go girl!
The "While Your Spouse Decides" was probably the first blog on here that I read. And I read it over and over. My H didn't get my friendship when he really, really didn't deserve it. When he was very busy demonizing me and treating our home like his crash pad. I tried to go dark and he got worse. Treating him as a friendly neighbor shifted things immediately. As time went on and he softened and started to become himself again it was hard not to be friends again. Even when he was prepared to leave me for OW he still couldn't help but share things with me. He had her to talk to all day every day should he so choose but he would follow me around while I was actively avoiding him just so he could share with me. Because our friendship mattered. And I listened even if I wanted to choke him sometimes because our friendship mattered to me. If I must be completely honest he doesn't probably fully "deserve" my friendship now, but we were friends before we dated, before we were lovers, co-parents, husband and wife. We were friends for years first. And my H was and is one of my best friends. When it was obvious that the friendship he wanted so badly between us wasn't just to fill his needs I softened. I'm not holding parts of myself hostage until he reaches a socially acceptable point at which people on this board and IRL feel like he deserves it. My H and I are no where near reconciliation. But the friendship we have has been flourishing since OW left the picture. He's still unsure of what he wants but I'm patient. And I know that he wants and needs my friendship. So he can have it. Like David says in the blog, "Perhaps all that will survive is friendship, but by preserving a friendship, you always leave the door open to something more." Like every thing on here it's not one size fits all. It never will be. But Cardinal has a point. The attitude regarding interactions around the WAS/WS is a little different now than it used to be. There's so much hard lining on limited contact, limited kindness, limited friendship, limited physical contact, limited everything. Some times you just have to go against the grain and see what happens. That's what DR says try things see what sticks and fails. So for some of us it might be friendship.
Cardinal I love the bit about candy, and your self improvement is beyond impressive. (((hugs)))
Well, I feel like I have been gone from here forever, and it's been only a few days—all this extra light from daylight saving time really has made the days feel longer, I guess! The weekend was calm, as in I felt grounded emotionally, worked in the yard, read a book. I was reflecting on your posts and the distinctions between friendliness and friends.
Things with H were slightly strange in that he texted me several times, once to make a joke about something in the house when I wasn't there, and once to ask about groceries, which he never does, and then some follow-up jokey texts. So more virtual and in-person engagement... He was home all day dehydrating fruit on Sunday and brought me bites to try throughout the day, started tiny conversations, played records, asked about some brownies I made and later ate some. He also worked on a woodworking project outside, which he used to love and hasn't done for a very long time—he made a very nice display/rack for his growing record collection. (May, it seems to have doubled in a week! And it's mainly old favorites of his that he's started listening to again.)
I came home at one point to find him making his comfort food for dinner, and he had headphones on and was watching a show on his ipad as he chopped. He saw me and took his headphones off to show me something, then left them off and watched with the volume up as he cooked instead. This from a guy who used to never take his headphones off when I was in the house. With his music drifting through the house the last couple of weeks and, then, this tv show, it's like we're breathing the same air again, experiencing (a teeny tiny bit) of the same reality.
Also, I think a lot of people on these boards are dealing with WSs with whom the friendship is gone and the WS is acting in all ways like a jerk. I do think there is a real difference in our sitchs than those where the WS is actively demonizing the LBS, the home situation is untenable, everyone feels like garbage all the time, etc.
H was mostly a jerk for the first six months, so maybe this is why this is on my mind now. At first, post BD, it was all about me wanting to be consistent no matter his mood, me trying to be friendly all the time, and sometimes it was met with friendliness in return, usually not. Once I switched to not
trying but simply being, not reaching out, but simply being available to respond--well, that seems to have made a difference these last few months.
Everything he says and does at the moment seems to be geared towards minimizing his discomfort. Maybe there will be some moment in the future when he actually considers the pain his choices have caused for his wife and family but that is not where he is now. Friendly not friends. I don't want to soothe his guilt. But more than that I think it is a boundary that helps protect my heart right now.
You explained this so clearly, belleva. Your H reminds me a bit of the way May's H was (and other WASes here), of wanting to remain good friends, this fantasy idea of what D could look like. I can see how friendly not friends becomes all the more important. My H never talks about what he envisions or plans or wants, hasn't brought up D since November, so it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to navigate this kind of muddled thinking in a spouse. It sounds, horrible, of course! But it's very good that you know your boundaries and are living them.
Friends/friendship/foundation. That is interesting isn’t it?
Yes, a friendship would be required for a rekindling or building a new relationship or marriage. However, I think we need to go through the stage of less friends and more just friendly.
Yes--H and I are not friends now, as much as I would like that. I see on his part lately more friendliness, and on my part friendliness in return (e.g. engaging when engaged). I see compassionate indifference as the foundation for friendship (if and when, as May wrote, the LBS has a willingness to reestablish that connection, as desired by the WAS). Eventual friendship as the foundation for reconnection and M 2.0.
Your strong friendship will make a good foundation. It also let you overlook many things. Your friendship with H needs to grow - at a later time, for he is not ready right now.
Also important--recognizing this need for growth, and recognizing it cannot happen now. But recognizing first the need for growth feels like an important step. Trusting that the foundation will remain even if I'm not actively making repairs right now.
I felt simple gratitude for the weekend friendliness as it was unfolding, still a tiny bit curious about the why, but that was in the background and didn't consume my thoughts; by the end of the day, I realized all of the positives I'd noted
had made me feel hopeful, and then I realized that my hope has begun to evolve from short term w/ expectations (Maybe this means he won't file, is what I would have found myself hoping/fretting over pretty recently, but it wasn't that) to a more open-ended hope (I believe there is a future with us in it). I'm glad to see I've started to change the way I hope. I've managed to weed out some expectation. So much of my mental/internal changes seem to happen when I'm not focusing on making them happen. -->
Beliefs take time, they are slow to change.
The concrete “feeling” you seek grows stronger and stronger as more and more days of living by your values accumulate.
As for items on your list, do not forget the ones you already possessed and strengthened. Loyalty, faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, and so on. The progress made here, the strength that these current traits gain is incredible, and once realized add much to that concrete feeling.
Both points seem obvious, yet I didn't think of them! Thanks for reminding me how this works, DnJ. It's not all about how many changes we can make in ourselves; it's also about recognizing and strengthening our already-admirable qualities. Yes. I feel like a portion of my brain is still devoted to finding more potential 180s I might've overlooked—the same portion that repeats, Do more of what works! Do less of what doesn't! Be unpredictable! Maybe it is enough to keep working on the core changes I've already begun to make, to keep living and reinforcing those, day by day, so that they will continue to grow and strengthen.
I'm sorry I can't write short posts! It's a new week. I've got extra GAL on the calendar, including an art class I signed up for. Wishing you all health and longer, brighter days ahead.
I'm not holding parts of myself hostage until he reaches a socially acceptable point at which people on this board and IRL feel like he deserves it. My H and I are no where near reconciliation. But the friendship we have has been flourishing since OW left the picture. He's still unsure of what he wants but I'm patient.
This resonates, wayfinder. I feel that some people's situations lend themselves to really hard lines, either because of the way their S is acting or their own internal workings of how they deal with things. And that works for many people. But I think it is also DBing to take a different approach and OK to be friends, friendly, whatever, as long as you can handle it and aren't mistaking their friendship for a desire to reconcile.
Again, I always think it comes down to your own attitude. Are you being friends because you're licking up crumbs in the desperate hope he'll come back? I feel a lot like folks here (and probably IRL) feel like any friendly interaction automatically fits that mold. But I don't think so. I think if you are able to step back and understand what is going on, where you are, where he is, and be OK with what is happening in the moment, for his sake or yours or the eventual R, whatever that might look like... that is all OK and truly DBing as long as you're keeping the same basic rules about focusing on yourself and not pursuing.
Cardinal, I say all this because I feel this is you. In your posts you seem strong and wise. It seems like you have that big picture understanding of what is happening in your sitch, with your H, with your own reactions or non-reactions... it is really impressive. Nice job too on separating expectations from hope. That is so key and something I know I still need to work on. I know I've read here too about the difference between the friendly neighbor interaction and the friends/significant other interaction is that you have certain expectations of your friends, and you don't for the nice neighbor or check-out clerk. So it seems like you are really perfecting that.
Maybe it is enough to keep working on the core changes I've already begun to make, to keep living and reinforcing those, day by day, so that they will continue to grow and strengthen.
Yes, I think so. I think it is exhausting to focus so much of your energy on your H and what is working and what isn't... focusing on you and what serves you now that you've hit some level of stride I think is good and important. You need a break sometimes.
My H has been talking about making a record player table and storage rack. We'll see how that goes!
(((HUGS))) you are doing so well!!
Wayfinder, when I posted before, I somehow missed your post! And I hadn't read the "While Your Spouse Decides" post from MWD yet, so I'm glad you shared it here. It did really resonate with me, as did what you posted, WF. I was friends with my H before we dated, then after I broke up with him and we had a period of not hanging out together while we were seeing other people, then we became friends again before we got back together and eventually married. I am a friendly neighbor now, and I do admire David's words and approach, because it does seem to align with my core values. How I would want to act in that same situation, which would involve me setting my ego aside, setting aside what anyone else might think, all of that. I don't know how I would handle it, though. One day at a time.
Again, I always think it comes down to your own attitude. Are you being friends because you're licking up crumbs in the desperate hope he'll come back? I feel a lot like folks here (and probably IRL) feel like any friendly interaction automatically fits that mold. But I don't think so. I think if you are able to step back and understand what is going on, where you are, where he is, and be OK with what is happening in the moment, for his sake or yours or the eventual R, whatever that might look like... that is all OK and truly DBing as long as you're keeping the same basic rules about focusing on yourself and not pursuing.
This makes a lot of sense to me, May. I think I was more on the lookout for any crumb (any semblance of a friendly interaction) in the first months after BD, and since then I
think I have been able to, as you say, come to a place where I have a bigger-picture understanding. I don't feel wise at all, though! I think if I come across that way at all in my posts at times, it's because writing here forces me to take apart my feelings and try to figure them out, to try to move toward a bigger perspective.
That said I know I still have underlying expectations... whenever I read something here about some nice interaction with the WAS not meaning anything, I find myself wanting to push back on that in my own sitch, like, well, I no longer am desperate to think these friendly interactions with H mean no D, but I do think they are positive. I do think, because of the way we always started as friends in the past before R, it is positive if I am a friendly neighbor and H is increasingly engaged. Because of these interactions and his inaction, I do think I believe deep down he is not 100% sure of his path, and that has expectations wrapped up in it. I'm still making progress for me, I hope.
May, maybe our Hs can exchange record player storage designs! Haha.
I forgot I also wanted to mention something else on my mind this morning re: that year H and I spent apart in college and now. When we became friends again then, he had changed in some ways (music interests, dress, etc.) but not fundamentally, and I do see him going through those same kinds of changes now, which makes me think yeah, yeah, this is another period where he's exploring his identity.
Is this the kind of thing that separates an MLC spouse from a WAS?
For example: He was so alien for six months after BD 1, and when, after the second BD/divorce talk, when he said he'd been pretending to be someone else for a long time and that I wouldn't like who he was now, it was just so clear to me that he didn't like who he was either. From the outside, it appeared he was miserable and angry and trying desperately to feel better.
Now he's less strange, more recognizable in a lot of ways, but still does things that are out of character: after the excessive drinking and partying slowed down in January, I noticed he started having pot edibles around, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's smoking from time to time, something he never did in college. In fact, he kind of looked down on people who *did.* Now, of course, it's no big deal where we live, but I found myself worrying about him today. Worried that he's just traded one kind of self-medicating (alcohol) for another, and... I just want him to get through this without hurting himself.
So I mostly go around feeling like he's living his life and making his own decisions and, you know, whatever. I observe from a distance. I've let myself get a bit closer to his world today. Wondering what it is like inside his head. Hoping and praying he gets to a place of peace within himself. I guess I should remember he probably has many ups and downs like I do, makes some progress within himself, takes two steps back, etc. I shouldn't let this scare me. It is just the nature of the thing.
I think that identity crisis can happen at any age, so for your H to have significant changes with his behavior and interests....it's definitely a way of him figuring himself out.
Talking about identity crisis, my H started to grow a mustache. he's never done this in the 10+ years I've known him.
If his ways are not affecting you too much, let him do his thing and see if he could figure it out...which I think you are already doing great with that.
sending good vibes to you!
Good Morning cardinal
Your question of WAS vs MLCer is a good one.
It got me thinking and writing this morning. I posted about it on my thread.
In terms of finding themselves. I think the WAS is more exploring their identity, exploring who they are; while the MLCer has more lost their identity, lost who they are.
Each exhibit behaviours of exploring, growth, and such. The MLCer’s behaviour is more desperate and riskier. They need to feel something. They will try all kinds of stuff to run from their pain.
The WAS is not so desperate. They are more calculated.
DnJ
I'm feeling scared and lonely. H has been less engaging this weekend, which isn't that surprising, since he goes back and forth all the time, and, really, how engaging can you be when you sleep in until 11 because you were out late? But in my state all bars, nightclubs, brewpubs, and wineries are now supposed to close to curb the spread of Covid-19. This was just announced. This means H will not be working his bartender gig. And my boss just let me know she's closing the store where I work for the time being to protect everyone's health (and because it's been slow with all this going on). I'm the only full-time employee. I guess I should apply for unemployment. I should be okay for the short term at least, because our finances aren't separated. But without my own income I don't feel comfortable paying for therapy sessions. I feel guilty for buying anything. I feel extra dependent on H.
I texted H when I heard about the bars, and he just texted back, "Whoa." I guess this means no concerts for him too, and no staying out late and drinking, unless it's at a friend's house.
I just arrived home and he's not here, and I feel so sad about everything that's happening in the world and that I can't lean on him, can't talk to him about my job and his job or, well, anything normal. I am angry at him. I just yelled into his empty room that I can't believe he blew up our life and I don't know why I married him, so... yeah, feeling a bit unmoored. I hate him. But I don't hate him. I miss him, and I love him. It's hard to deal with more uncertainty (job, town, world) on top of the craziness that already exists in my life. I'm sure a lot of you feel similarly. People who aren't going through WAS/MLC drama feel overwhelmed and anxious. This is a lot to cope with.
I am trying to remember tomorrow is a new day. Anything could happen, including good things. This is just a shaky moment.
Good Morning cardinal
I hope this new day is a brighter one. (((Hugs)))
The current world/country/local situation is a stressful one. The closing of businesses and services increases the stresses on patrons and employees. The cancellation of all social gatherings adds to the atmosphere.
That is the plan for the next few weeks. Further plans to get communities back up and running are being crafted. This will take time; which is good, for we want them to do it right. I am thankful for these preemptive measures, for delays would surely have increased the problems for getting the genie back in the bottle.
These current efforts and behaviours asked of us are only temporary. This is not permanent.
I do empathize with having no spouse to discuss this or anything with. Unmoored is an excellent description of that sensation. Please have faith, you will find your balance, your solid ground, and discover your anchor in life is you.
Take care.
DnJ
I’ve been trying to regain my balance and doing okay. It feels like I’m entering a whole new world since H will be home more now because of the shelter in place order here, which starts tomorrow. The last two days he was home after work and quiet, no records. No eating. I was thinking it must be difficult for him to suddenly have his distractions taken away. He’s (more) alone with himself now. I’ve been enjoying my time at home and trying to do a little remote work for my boss when she has something for me. A little money.
H has been in his room all night, which is maybe 10 feet away on the other side of the wall. He listened to records tonight, including some heavy metal that was not calming (maybe it was to him!). Now he’s talking to someone on the phone, laughing like he used to laugh with me. It’s not the (girl) friend. One of his other friends. I feel so, so low. It’s incredibly difficult hearing him laugh and be silly when he’s been super quiet with me. I miss our way with each other so much right now. I miss him so much. I don’t know how I will get used to this if I have to hear him on the phone.
I was getting ready to head to sleep and I’m crying and just sitting here, trying to accept the reality of the world outside the house (worrying about my parents and grandparents) and of the reality in this house. I guess I could put headphones on? I don’t want to feel uncomfortable in my own house. I am angry. I am sad. I am not feeling accepting. Why can’t we talk like we used to? Is he going to be here 24/7 now, but start ignoring me? Like I’m the one who’s making him stay home? If he has to work from home, and I don’t have space to fully relax during the day, it’s going to be a huge adjustment.
My coach on Monday said, “Who knows what effects a global pandemic might have on marriage rescue? This is new territory.” Of course this virus has me feeling extra love for everyone in my life. But even in the face of so much potential illness and death, all I’m feeling is indifference from H. I’m just someone who happens to have bought toilet paper before it all ran out—how convenient. Hearing him on the phone makes me feel like he’s rubbing that indifference in my face. I think—if I got sick, would he even notice or care?
I know I’m spinning, but it’s a shock, because I haven’t seen or heard him interact with anyone else since BD. It was all in another place, away from the house.
I am trying to remember what my friend said: It’s about him. And he may just need space to adjust to how weird life is for all of us right now.
Oh I feel you cardinal.....
This crisis has certainly change things up (DB wise) for me. Who knows what’s gonna happen tomorrow? What if our loved ones die? I am feeling anxious and scared because of the pandemic, but the only person I wish I could rely on and hold on to is someone who continues to show me indifference. The loneliness seems to be magnified now that the world is in crisis. I feel extremely worn out, having to worry about keeping our daily lives going and preparing for worst all on my own.
Your H is still living in his own bubble, just like mine. Hang in there, come here and vent. We probably all need each other here even more than ever during this period of craziness.
Wooba, I hear you on the loneliness and longing feeling magnified. It s*cks so much. Thanks for listening to me vent.
I’m in a place where I don’t trust myself to control my anger around H, so I’m trying to keep my distance. He came home tonight after gathering up everything he needed to work from home starting tomorrow (ugh) and told me a bit about the craziness at work. Then he went to his room and called who I think was the same person as last night. I was occupied with something and it didn’t bother me as much. The convo was all fluff, no substance. Felt more like a friend (but not even true friend) convo to me, but who knows. I get the feeling that’s all these new friends are—not share your deepest feelings kind of friends. I went on a walk, felt better. He was gone gone for a while and we had a few friendly exchanges when he got back.
But just now he started playing a record and said, Oh, I was going to tell you you might want to get some earplugs. If I’m trapped in here at night now I worry about making too much noise. I’ll be up all night.
Like, what, I said, screaming in the middle of the night?
You know, listening to music, being on the phone, he said, and you go to sleep at like 9:30.
Well, I have earplugs somewhere, I said, but maybe if you’re listening to music at 10:30 you can put headphones on?
The house is so small, he said.
So: I feel myself being walked over—At first I thought he was being considerate but alsoby the end he seemed to be saying, guess you’ll have to adapt to my schedule, even as his tone seemed nice. I didn’t continue the convo because I felt myself getting really angry.
How do I create an agreement like I would with a roommate? If you need to make calls or play music after 10, I’d appreciate if you’d use headphones? I guess the calls are something I would just have to get used to. Surely I can make enough noise in my room to drown those out and sleep. Or, like, right now, if I want to go to sleep and he’s listening to music too loud? I don’t think I should be the one who has to wear earplugs, but I also don’t want to be unreasonable.
I also recognize he has no way of coping if he can’t go out at night to concerts or bars with his friends. It seems clear, right, that he is going to struggle with this and has no idea how to be alone with his thoughts at night? He’s always been a night owl, but of course after BD spent many months out until the wee hours of the morning like a teenager. That had gotten somewhat less crazy. I guess I’m trying to find compassion here in my anger. He’s probably just as freaked out and uncomfortable with the thought that he can’t go out, and it’s not because I’m so terrible to share a house with. It’s because he’s dealing with a lot of stuff that I highly doubt he’s talking about with anyone, maybe his IC (though I still doubt that he really examines the hard stuff with her either), and I’m not sure if he’s able to see her at this point. And on the surface of course not even this pandemic is affecting him in any way. He’s not worried about loved ones—nope! There must be a lot he has to drown out.
Good Morning cardinal
But just now he started playing a record and said, Oh, I was going to tell you you might want to get some earplugs. If I’m trapped in here at night now I worry about making too much noise. I’ll be up all night.
Like, what, I said, screaming in the middle of the night?
You know, listening to music, being on the phone, he said, and you go to sleep at like 9:30.
Well, I have earplugs somewhere, I said, but maybe if you’re listening to music at 10:30 you can put headphones on?
The house is so small, he said.
So: I feel myself being walked over—At first I thought he was being considerate but alsoby the end he seemed to be saying, guess you’ll have to adapt to my schedule, even as his tone seemed nice. I didn’t continue the convo because I felt myself getting really angry.
How do I create an agreement like I would with a roommate? If you need to make calls or play music after 10, I’d appreciate if you’d use headphones?
You create an agreement like you would with a roommate.
You are getting walked all over on this. How would you behave if it wasn’t H? If you were not manipulating, or try to affect an outcome?
People will treat you the way you let them.
I said, but maybe if you’re listening to music at 10:30 you can put headphones on?I said, I appreciate you worrying about making noise while up all night. If you’re listening to music or watching movies between 10:30pm and 08:00am you can put headphones on. It is night time, you can stay up if you want, the house will be quiet.
You don’t back down from this. There is no maybe. Treat him like the rebellious teenager he is. It works. He’ll sulk, and get mad. Let him. You have no need to placate him on this. It’s night time and he needs to demonstrate respect for others.
DnJ
I'm so sorry, Cardinal. I am sure being there trapped with him without a buffer is really hard. I have kids so they are my buffer. My H is actually being a good roommate. His opposite is turning into a hermit. He used to be the social butterfly so the way he's being crazy is really to withdraw from everyone, except our kids. I am grateful for that.
Regarding the headphones/earplugs... I agree with DnJ. If this was a roommate situation, you would have to kindly ask them to create ground rules. It complicates things because of all your emotional enmeshment with him. Just take deep breaths before you have the talk. And self soothe, whatever that means for you... when you feel stressed, afraid or worried.
When I get like that, I do what Louis Hay says. I do my mirror work. I tell myself, "I love you. You are ok. You will get through this. You are enough." Then I sometimes rub my face like my spouse used to or literally hug myself. I am also blessed that I can ask my kids for a hug or to hold hands. Even them as teenagers understand with all we are going through this kind of affection is needed and soothing.
Be kind to yourself. Be patient with your progress. You are doing great. Blessings!
Hi Cardinal,
I took a little break from the board and now with the world changing, I thought I’d check in. I am in CA which is a lock down.
I do some work from home, but I don’t know if I can work away on Monday. (I work with a company that works for cities) so it isn’t possible I’ll be home for a month.
My H has drifted in and out since all of this virus blew up. I think he goes to drive thrus to eat away in the car. Our daughter came home from grad school so he has resorted to sleeping in the den. My daughter and I watch tv in my bedroom and leave him alone. He is supposed to travel for work on Sunday, which isn’t ideal, but if he can leave, he will go. Last week he traveled to Colorado. It makes me nervous, but I can’t be his mom. He was extremely sick after traveling to Mexico in January, and I wonder if he already had the virus. But regardless, this is hard. He is, in my opinion, having a hard time staying home. I am just doing my thing.
How does a WWS deal with staying home with the spouse they walked away from? Not very easily. I am content to be home, and our weather can be nice for walking. He has run away since the beginning of all of this, so I got used to a routine here. He didn’t. So I know this is hard.
I will say, as a plus to him, last week when things were ramping up, he went and bought a bunch of snacks for the house. That was nice and unexpected.
I hope you find a routine with having your H home more. I’ll be trying here, too.
PLC
Update, work trip cancelled. We are going to be stuck for a while.
PLC, I've been wondering how you are. This is such a strange situation for us all to be in! I don't know if my H recognizes the gravity of what's going on or not. I hope your H is able to settle into his own routine, and that it's less annoying than the routine my H seems to be setting up...
New thread:
Searching for calm with shelter-in-place roommate