Hi all,
Came home from a weekend fishing trip to a wifeless home. No warning just 4 sentences on a note left on the counter - "I moved out to an apartment. I don't hate you. This was long overdue. I will call the boys to tell them. Sorry"
She was struggling with our youngest going away to college all summer. She would't talk with me about it. She has always bottled negative emotions our during our relationship. Our sons stay with me in the family home when on school breaks. She is distant with them and won't talk to them about it either. I've been giving her space as requested after a few missteps the first month. No EA or PA that I am aware of at this time. Main alienater or supporter is her sister who left her husband in Hawaii 1.5 years ago. There is a family history of running from problems - mother and 2 sisters have done it. Everyone who knows her is shocked. Has recently spent money on Botox injections plus a lot of other uncharacteristic behavior. She will attend mass with us (we are Catholic) and go to family dinner afterward and act as though everything is fine. Typically tells others that we weren't getting along so we separated. No D talk yet but I fear its coming so I have consulted a lawyer but don't plan on doing anything but reacting.
I am thinking MLC but not sure or if it really matters. My sons and I are devastated. I am currently standing
Taz
Welcome to the MLC Forum! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for your perusal.
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmMichele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D32,S31
I think you might want to look into a walkaway wife. That also sounds like a good possibility.
I am sorry you are here. Whether she's in MLC or a WAW, you would treat her and your situation the same. I suggest that you visit the Newcomers Forum and look up Sandi2. She was a WAW and you may get some valuable insight from her postings.
Hi Taz - sorry you are in this sitch, but you came to the right place for support and advice. How old are your kids? No matter what the age, it's devastating to all those left behind.
No D talk yet but I fear its coming so I have consulted a lawyer but don't plan on doing anything but reacting.
Be proactive, not reactive. Take control of what you can. Yourself. You don't have to file for divorce, but get your finances in order. GAL. Support your kids. How is your W supporting herself? With the Botox etc, I'd be surprised if there wasn't another guy around, or she's looking.
Sorry you are here.
Hugs.
Grace
Hello Taz
Sorry about how you found out. Just a note and a wifeless house.
Her age and the boys going to college does point to some life transition turmoil. Perhaps it is not a full blown crisis, perhaps it is. Your response is the same - time and space for her; focus on you and the boys.
You mentioned that you feel she was troubled with S18 going off to college. Is he the first child to leave? Where is S20?
Looking back to the 18 to 24 month prior to BD did W show any signs of confusion, emotional reactions and stresses, etc...? These are very hard to spot while living with them. The progress to an emotional crisis or a lesser break is gradual and easily missed.
Contrary to how it appeared to you, her leaving was probably not a snap last minute decision. She had been going down this road for a while. If you look you will most likely see those little changes in her over the last year or so.
A caution for you. Do not re-write your history. This is two pronged advice.
Sometimes we will see or think we see things, and change our views of our past lives to make those pieces fit. This is usually towards making our remembered R worse than it was. Like suddenly you feel your W was a narcissist all along.
The other caution is the rose coloured glasses we all wear for the first while. One remembers things better than they really were and our history is alter towards the it was a great R side of things.
You are correct, this is a devastating time for you and the boys. Do not demonize W nor place her upon a pedestal - focus on you.
It takes time to find detachment and for ones mind and heart to calm. As this slowly happens, you will remember things, real things, places, events, feelings, etc... Be accurate in thought and heart.
You have the gift of time, use it well. Look to yourself and become the best possible version of you.
As for a possible divorce. Good on you for seeing a lawyer. You are correct in getting information and learning your rights. Do not share what you have learnt with W nor tell her about your visits with a L. You need not push anything, just be ready for if she does. Treat this as a business deal gone sideways, for that is really what this part is.
The other side of your situation is not emotionless business. It is you and your boys healing. It is your choice to stand. It is realizing the path you have been forced upon. It takes time. And it is very rewarding.
Hope to talk soon.
DnJ
Thanks for all the sage advice. I have been on not initiated contact since Thanksgiving but do respond to her when she contacts me. I recently met with my younger sons Psychologist to get advice on how to help him deal with this. He and his mother were very close and he is not handling this well. They are not currently speaking. This really makes me sad. I also spoke with the Dr. about my wife. She has multiple issues from her late teens and suffered a bout of depression in her early twenties that resulted in an attempted suicide. She is adept at hiding her depression from others and can appear normal at work and with friends. I noticed a change in her demeanor the past year or so prior to leaving. I am concerned that she could be depressed. Is there anything I can do for her?
Taz
Thanks for all the sage advice. I have been on not initiated contact since Thanksgiving but do respond to her when she contacts me. I recently met with my younger sons Psychologist to get advice on how to help him deal with this. He and his mother were very close and he is not handling this well. They are not currently speaking. This really makes me sad. I also spoke with the Dr. about my wife. She has multiple issues from her late teens and suffered a bout of depression in her early twenties that resulted in an attempted suicide. She is adept at hiding her depression from others and can appear normal at work and with friends. I noticed a change in her demeanor the past year or so prior to leaving. I am concerned that she could be depressed. Is there anything I can do for her?
Taz
I don't think there is anything you can do for her. You are already taking care of the home and children. However, if she brings it up to you, you could ask "Is there a way that I can support you right now?" But that doesn't mean being a doormat or giving her money. How is she supporting herself?
I would be concerned that there is someone else. Even if it is only online right now.
Oceangrl,
She has a good job and is able to support herself. She has used the family credit card for limited expenses and typically asks me if its ok. The weird thing is she has not monstered with me and doesn't appear to be in a EA or a PA. Supposedly she doesn't speak badly about me to friends. She does give others including our sons the impression that our split was mutual (not true). People are shocked when I tell them that she left with out a word to me. She still attends church every weekend and is involved in many ministries at the church as well. Our priest reached out to her and had a face to face meeting with her. He was the one who initially suggested MLC to me. He said it was the weirdest conversation he had ever had with a woman who left her husband. She barely spoke and never actually gave him a reason why she left us. She did give my sons a note in their Crhistmas card trying to explain why she left it just basically said. "I was tired of pretending that everything was ok and I felt that your dad did not care about me anymore." the odd thing was she couldn't just tell them this. She even told them not to open the card till she was gone. The whole thing just does not make sense.
I am so confused. I think she is suffering from depression. She seems to be able to function as normal with everyone but me and our college aged sons. This [censored]!
Taz
Well today marks 6 months since BD, the day I returned home from a weekend fishing trip to a half empty house. Im getting along fairly well and have S20 and S19 here at home with me doing their elearning as the universities sent them home. Being a single parent is tough my hats off to those who have been doing it much longer and with younger more dependent children than what I have.
W has been fairly silent and I dont contact her unless she initializes it. Last month I let her drop her cat off here for 5 days while she went on a Caribbean trip with her girl friends. A couple weekends ago she dropped her car off here at the house and had me look at a few issues. ( I know cake eating, but I offered and I enjoy working on cars). The day she dropped it off was my birthday. She didnt mention it at the time but did when she thanked me later.
The virus has her working from her apartment and her circuit of fun activities are derailed for the meantime. Must be tough hanging out by yourself in the apartment while I tend to our sons and maintain a home.
She did reach out to my mother on her birthday a week before mine and they started a dialog. My mother adored her and treated her like a daughter. She told my mother that she loves my family and is sorry that she made them sad but our relationship has been bad for a very long time. This was news to me as she never told me this.
S19 had a birthday this past Wednesday. She texted me the day before asking if she should stop by the house or just drop his gift in the mailbox if he didnt want to see her. I told her she should come by the house and join us for dinner which she did. We all had a nice visit. After she left S20 said That was weird. She acts like nothing is wrong then just leaves. Guess we wont see her again until my birthday next month.
Still dont understand what shes going through. Still no PA, still no mention of D, or any explanation/ discussion of what is going on. We keep things light and dont ask any questions. I know her friends have told her she needs to talk to us. They all think she is fine and dont believe she is in MLC or depressed. Of course the three wise men here at the house know something is not right with her.
Im going to keep doing what Im doing. Be kind, empathetic, work on myself, raise my sons, and pray.
Taz
Sounds like MLC to me
Botox, not talking to kids
There really is no explanation for the behavior of a MLC...
My best understanding of it is they have unresolved issues from the past as she clearly does, long history of not dealing with emotions and problems, and running from pain
MLC is all about running..they cant see they have issues from childhood, teenage years and the crises usually comes around mid life
age 40
triggered by some event...maybe son leaving, or someone dying
What I saw from my XH crises is nothing could help him see the truth
He wanted to play, he did not want to parent his young children
He did not want to run his sucessful company
He wanted to have fun, got a motorcycle, dyed his hair, changed his clothing style
he was not interested in therapy or working through it instead he chose to leave a life that was sucessfull, good job , home and family and start over with a younger woman who had psych issues ..
continue to work on yourself and support your boys
more will come to the surface
Some will take up w/someone and then, there are those who do the MLC trip solo. It all depends upon the person, their coping skills and what they experienced as children. However, I would venture to say that there is someone on her radar and you just aren't aware of it. It could be an emotional affair versus a physical one...no matter...because you are going to continue to focus on you and your children. You are going to allow her to travel her own path and once she's reached the end of the path, she will need to face those demons and decide whether to remain a long time MLCer or become a mature, more settled woman.
Stay the course, focus on you and your children. You've got this!
Ah Taz, so sorry. Dont have much to offer except prayers and remember to keep working on you. Actually have it easier in all this if we can let go of our own pain long enough too see them. It is just hard on our kids. Blessings
Hi Taz. Sorry you are here. I have to agree with job, that there might be someone on her radar. I never in a million year would have guessed that was even possible with my H, but it happened. Is still active from a distance. The internet sure makes contacting others easy. Where there is a will, there is a way.
I hope this isn't the case with your sitch. It's a hard road. We are all here for you.
Good Morning Taz
It is nice to hear from you.
Sounds like you are doing very well with this single parent stuff. Having your sons, two young men doing their university courses online, around during all this is a good thing. And yes, you three wise men know and see how W/Mom is behaving, no matter what she says.
And there is one of the truths in all this. Believe none of what the MLCer says, and only half of what they do.
MLCers are driven by their feelings. Their emotions are cranked up to 11. Long ago emotional trauma(s), from a person in a position of authority, emotionally scarred and stunted them when they were young children/teenagers.
Their buried and denied pain has remain within them until the pressures of midlife stir those unrealized feelings. A triggering event awakens their torment around 18-24 months before bomb drop. The LBS can usually see these small innocuous signs when they look back and start putting the pieces together. Dont worry, no one sees those signs for what they were while living with their spouse.
Your W is on a journey. A person in crisis is completely captivated and unable to escape their emotional suffering. It is so bad, so tormenting, that they will rewrite their history, blame you, the kids, the dogs, the sky, whatever... they run from their pain. They are driven to escape their pain. They destroy their lives, their marriages, their families, all in an attempt to run from themselves. This all has nothing to do with you! This was all set up a long time ago, when you didnt even know her.
A MLCer doesnt know any of this. They dont see it. They cant. Their long ago, unaddressed emotions, are now at the surface with all the pain from that time. This drags them back to that time. They revert to those small children/teenagers, reliving those times. They need to find peace with their feelings. To realize they were not at fault for whatever trauma(s) were inflicted upon them. They were young people and not to blame, but a person in authority holds great power over a young emotionally immature person, and that young person blames themselves.
Remember, this is an emotional trauma. The young person cannot reconcile what happened, and does not know what to do. Imagine someone of absolute trust, betraying you - well we all have that with BD - but as a young person youd have no idea how to handle it. So the trauma(s) gets emotional buried and forgotten... until later. Ticking time bomb, the fuse on which was lit long ago. This MLC was, and is, unknown, unavoidable, and so very unfortunate for all involved.
You are not along for the ride. She will be walking her path alone. And she needs too.
You need to focus on you and the boys. Give W space and time. She needs both and will take them, therefore do not pressure her. Keep any interactions cordial and pressure free. Too much pressure and the MLCer will bolt.
MLCers cannot blame themselves, and therefore blame their loving spouse. Your W says you guys had a bad marriage, mine said she was unhappy for the last 2, 5, 15 years. Yeah, they rewrite their history to match and justify what they feel.
One on the main goals for you is to give her time to realize that you are no longer affecting her emotions. Now, I know, and you know, that she is the one affecting her emotions - but she doesnt know that. You focus on you and let her be. After a while she realizes that hey Taz hasnt been around for a while and yet I am still unhappy. Therefore it cannot be his fault.
That little leap of logic is an insurmountable canyon for her right now. She cannot see the reality staring her in the face. Time and space, and lots of it.
Taz, you have the gift of time, use it well. The LBS grows from this. Usually becoming better people through this crucible of change. The situation you find yourself in is an incredible opportunity, and one I wish you didnt have to endure. Our own path has many blessings and realizations along it, and is a slog to get through.
There are many people here, who know what you face, and what you are traversing.
Focus on you. Detach. Find compassionate indifference. Let go.
You sound well and grounded.
Stay strong.
DnJ
Thanks for all the supportive posts.
A brief update. Out of the blue she brought lunch for us to the house one day last week. Odd that she brought a sandwich for me as she knows I am still working at the office. I think that is the nicest thing she has done for me since she left.
With Easter upcoming I asked S20 if he wanted to invite W over for Easter dinner. He did and she enthusiastically agreed. She brought a few entrees for dinner and Easter baskets for the boys and one for me. Seems odd that she brought one for me after ignoring me at Christmas and on my birthday last month. Oh well sure it means nothing but it was a nice gesture.
Back to no contact and keeping busy. I have enjoyed the time to build my relationship with my sons and accomplish many tasks around the house. Worked with S20 the past week installing a new clutch in his car along with new suspension components. Saved a bunch of $$$ and it was good to teach him a few things.
Taz
Taz,
Thanks for updating us. It does seem like your W is peeking out of the tunnel, but we all have to be careful with zero expectations. Only believe 50% of what they do... and nothing of what they say (unless followed up with actions).
We all have to accept the kindness from our MLCers with gratitude. It may be gone in the next instant as their feelings (fear, confusion, loneliness, anger, etc.) rise up and force them back on their solitary path.
I re-read DR the pages on Midlife and 180 again. It reminded me again and again that patience is going to be tested. That we have to protect ourselves with detachment, no contact or smart contact, and continuing to get a life and take care of ourselves... and our kids.
It seems like you are doing gang busters with your kids. Teaching your son a useful skill will build his confidence and also your bonding. What a great thing to do! Good for you!
Take care and keep on keeping on. Blessings
So Monday was S20s 21st birthday. W planned a drive about where we visited 8 friends homes. Each family friend had a drink waiting for him. Some of them hung out for a bit at a safe distance and had a drink with him. It was a great evening and S21 really enjoyed it. She was just like her pre BD self. We all had a great time. She even gave me her phone to text to let people know we were on way in between homes in the car. I was tempted to snoop but didnt. Im sure I would have discovered nothing anyhow. After returning home I thanked her for organizing and went in the house. Of course we havent heard from her since. It seems like she is just content seeing the Boys once every two weeks. Looks like Mothers Day may be the next reach out touch and go.
There is one other thing I want opinions on that I havent mentioned before. Some time prior to BD W asked me if I remembered a friends wedding we attended. I said of course as I was a member of the wedding party. She brought up the fact that they did a wedding party dance and I danced with the girl I escorted down the aisle. She then said You didnt dance with me at that wedding! This wedding was 25 years ago. We were not even engaged at the time. I apologized and said I wish she would have talked to me about it at the time. She just turned around and walked away. I was confused at he time but didnt realize she must be setting the stage for her departure. She has brought this up to some of her friends lately to justify why she left. They are as confused as I am about her bringing it up now.
Taz
Hello Taz
Congratulation to son on turning 21. Thats a big year!
My math shows him 13 drinks short. Lol.
Nice to see all the friends and families having an awaiting beverage for him. It sounded like a really good time.
The dance from a wedding 25 years ago. Yeah, strange.
MLCers are reliving some past trauma. They get emotional transported back to that time, more or less. Your W is remembering all kinds of things from back them, like they were yesterday.
My XW recalled my old car from over 30 years ago. Described it to my kids like she was looking at it. Of course it did have black and white zebra striped upholstery and steering wheel cover.
Oh, the 80s were a fun time! Roaring around with A-has Take on Me blaring out the speakers.
Thing to remember is MLCers entered the tunnel before BD, usually 18-24 months before. They slowly and inexorably progress towards BD and replay. Along this slow decline they show signs of confusion, emotional immaturity, trouble coping, etc. This is usually such a slow change in behaviour the LBS doesnt see it.
This is pretty reasonable since most of us had no experience with MLC until BD. We had no idea what we would have been looking for, if we were even looking.
My XW had some crazy conversation and behaviours pre-bomb drop. I, completely unawares, just thought she was mixed up or over tired or something. We, future LBSs, rationalize it.
Now present day, me, my Mom, Dad, kids, and friends all have various stories of XW when looking back. It is amazing that we didnt see it before. Kind of wild that such a thing is so unknowingly overlooked. Nowadays I see emotional problems in people like they have a glowing red neon sign. Living through this does open ones eye pretty wide.
Your W is remembering and reliving all kinds of past experiences. The wedding dance and not dance is just one of many. These will be a mix of remembered fondly and used as blame. Its weird. Its confusing.
She has brought this up to some of her friends lately to justify why she left. They are as confused as I am about her bringing it up now.
Yep. Bring it up 25 years later.
Trust me, she is just as confused as you are for why she is bring it up. She doesnt know or understand why her past is surfacing.
My XW thought she was going crazy. Those were her words. She though she was losing her mind. Turns out she kind of did.
These MLCer have troubled pasts and unreconciled emotional trauma(s). And emotions that are buried alive will come back to haunt.
Hang in there.
You got this.
DnJ
So mothers day was a week ago. S21 and S19 each texted her Happy Mothers Day she just replied with a simple Thanks. I resisted the urge to wish her the same. Part of me wonders if that was a mistake but she hasn't acknowledged me on past reach outs so I decided not to. The boys also attempted to drop off a card but she didnt answer her door so they just left it taped to the door. She claimed she was napping and didnt hear the knock.
I heard from her for the first time in three weeks on Friday. She texted me about church resuming limited attendance mass starting in June. Wanted to know if she should respond that all 4 of us plan on attending or if I wanted to respond separately for me and the boys. I just said it was fine for her to respond for all of us.
Also on Friday she invited the boys over for dinner and they accepted. S21 said they were there for 30 minutes. Said conversation was awkward and irrelevant. They left as soon as they were done eating.
She did return S19s high school yearbook and Cross Country team pullover that she took with her when she left. He questioned her why she had them. She just said that she liked reading through the yearbook and that the pullover was comfortable. Is it possible that she took these because she was reliving her youth? Just seems odd.
Still detaching, working on self improvement, and providing a stable home for the boys.
Taz
Doing some thinking today which I know can be dangerous. One of the things W told me and our sons in separate notes on why she left was that she was tired of pretending that everything was ok. She has left us notes but has yet to speak to us about anything of substance.
I understand that always pretending that you are happy and have a perfect family and marriage can wear on your mental health. Heres the weird thing, every time we see her she still just acts like everything is fine and dandy.
So I guess its ok to pretend some of the time (a couple of hours every two weeks or so). W is still running from something. I know it isnt just me and our sons. We are just collateral damage.
Time to stop thinking and get dinner started.
Taz
Hey Taz,
Just reading up on your sitch, and it seems very similar to mine. I know it is tempting to try and read things into their actions and words, but it is impossible to know what they are thinking in their scrambled minds.
You are doing well by focusing on you and your boys. Keep working on yourself and giving her time and space. This way, no matter how things turn out, you are an even better version of yourself. You got this!
WMLC
Been fairly quiet the past three weeks since Memorial day when we last saw her. W reached out last week to remind us that our church was resuming services the first weekend in June and she had signed the 4 of us up to attend the Saturday evening anticipation mass.
Our parish is only allowing a limited # of people at mass to keep distancing and you must sign up online. You are also limited to one weekend mass per month until restrictions are lifted and last weekend was our opportunity based on the alphabetical pecking order they established.
I was unfortunately out of town working and my return flight did not arrive back in time for mass. I texted W and told her that I couldnt go and she should remind our sons which she did. Upon my return I asked my sons if their mom contacted them about mass. S21 replied that she did but he told her No thanks. When I asked him why he said that he was tired of participating in her charade of acting like we are still a normal happy family. I just said ok, figured its up to them to work out this current dynamic with her.
Taz
Good Morning Taz
Upon my return I asked my sons if their mom contacted them about mass. S21 replied that she did but he told her No thanks. When I asked him why he said that he was tired of participating in her charade of acting like we are still a normal happy family. I just said ok, figured its up to them to work out this current dynamic with her.
Good on S21. And good for you. Yes, its their relationship. Where it goes it up to Mom and son. Your job is just to not destroy it.
Glad to see S21 was cordial and polite, probably somewhat indifferent I suspect. A simple and direct no thanks. Thats very good.
Did S19 go to mass with Mom?
If you would have been in town, would you have gone? If so, would you have expected the boys to attend?
You know S21s current feelings about propping up a charade. Ensure you acknowledge and validate his feelings.
For what its worth: Ok, so your not a normal and happy family. S21 is most likely getting closer to the acceptance of things, and depressive thoughts and feelings do arise. However, not normal and happy family doesnt preclude happy family. And by the way, what is normal anyhow. Your family is normal!!! Your feelings are normal!!!
Those are the lessons and guidance which is upon your shoulders to inspire and demonstrate to your boys. Their happiness is not defined by their ideals of a normal family. Your happiness isnt defined by that either. You and they - be happy together. Be normal together. Be a family. Eat meals, laugh at jokes, have birthday parties, watch TV, go on vacations, ride rollercoasters, fix cars, etc... Normalize their lives and yours.
Just passing to you some lessons I learnt along the path.
One particularly difficult lesson was its ok to still have fun and be happy. Its ok to let go. Its good to see your son wanting to live authentic and not act. Its a good path to walk. Better not bitter.
Have a great day.
D
Good evening D
Did S19 go to mass with Mom?
If you would have been in town, would you have gone? If so, would you have expected the boys to attend
S19 did not attend either. He doesnt currently speak to his mother. He avoids discussing her and I dont push him.
Yes, I would have gone had I been in town and I would have invited the boys but would let them make their own decision on weather to attend.
She is pleasant to be around and always acts as though everything is fine between us. Its very confusing but doesnt bother me much any more so I just play along and be compassionate and kind. Who knows where this will lead.
Good Morning Taz
Its a pretty normal response for S19, not to be speak about, or with, his mother. Sounds like S21 is more open about it.
Good for you realizing and allowing the boys to make up their own minds for attending and other things.
Keep moving forward. Continue to be compassionate and kind. You are right, the future is unknown and no one knows where it will lead, or who will be involved in your life. Except you - you will always be part of your life. Ensure its a great one Taz.
So, what are you up to? Any projects? Hobbies? Yard work? Remodelling? Music lessons? Got any trips planned for the summer?
Have a great day Taz.
D
So, what are you up to? Any projects? Hobbies? Yard work? Remodelling? Music lessons? Got any trips planned for the summer?
D
I am keeping busy. I typically spend a couple weekends per month down south at the family farm. Mowing pasture, repairing fences, and maintaining an array of 30-60 year old tractors and various implements, cutting firewood, etc. No major projects here at the house but there is always something to do. Run or work out most days, Play some occasional golf and have a few trips planned this summer, fishing weekend this month, put-in-bay at lake Erie in July, and Key West in September. Going to the Indy 500 in August if they have it. Ill be plenty busy. I havent turned the TV on in months. I should cancel the cable. W probably watches a minimum of 5 hours a day. I could never sit still for that long. Theres too much to do and see.
Taz
So W reached out to me two weeks ago. She had an issue with her car and the price to repair was more than it was worth. I offered to take a look at it and ended up repairing it for her for about 15% of the estimate. I know cake eating. She fired me as her husband but will still let me be her mechanic. I let her use my truck while I worked on it. She was kind when she stopped by for inspection and the drop off and pickup.
She chatted with me more than S21 and S19 on those visits. She was very appreciative and thankful for the help. Still no idea what her future plans are regarding the R and I never bring it up. I am becoming more detached each day. It will be 9 months post BD this weekend.
going fishing with 3 old frat bros tomorrow. My goal is to not mention the situation at all and to catch my limit.
Tax
Hello Taz
Repairing her car was a nice thing to do. Something done as you would for a friend. That doesnt constitute cake eating. Cake eating is knowingly being in a serious relationship with your spouse while your spouse is also in another serious relationship with someone else. You just fixed her car, werent intimate.
Good job not bring up any R conversations during her visits. Nice to see your progress and detachment.
Your fishing trip sounds like a great idea. As well as the goal of not bring up you situation at all. Oh, and to catch your limit.
Have a great time!
D
Update,
Me and boys went to Mass and dinner with W on the fourth. This was our only contact in the past 3 weeks. Had some friendly chit chat about what we have all been up to. Afterward S21 said she might as well have Dimentia, it seems as though she has forgotten we exist. She did text the boys Yesterday to share a password for a streaming service she just enrolled in. This must be her fourth one now, she watches a lot of TV. I find this to be a bit unhealthy.
Still DBing and GALing. Im really starting to appreciate the gift of time. S21 and S19 will be heading back to college in a month if things go as planned. This will give me a break but will sting a bit as well.
Taz
Hello Taz
It is good to hear from you.
Yes, the boys heading back to college will sting a bit. Of course seeing them as healthy successful young men lessens that sting a lot.
My kids have similar insights into their Mom much like S21 does.
Yes for a good amount of Ws time, S21 and S19 are forgotten. People in crisis relive their trauma. Relive that time in their lives, over and over. Her kids didnt exist then. You were not part of her life then. Its part of their journey.
Another usual part is compulsive behaviours. Its also part of the running. Ws TV watching falls into this. Its somewhat an addiction, a mechanism, a coping, an escape. She needs to quiet those voices from long ago that continually torment her.
Exercise is my XWs escape. She absolutely needs to do it. Like 12 or more hours a day. And sunshine! All day, every day. She is dark tanned and crazy skinny. Doesnt look all that healthy.
You sound to be doing good. Continue moving forward and keep up the GAL. How was the fishing trip? Oh like thats not going to get a fish story. LOL. Being it on. I asked for it.
I can hear it already. DnJ, I caught one this big!
D
Taz,
Just read through your situation and you sound like you are doing well with you and your sons.
My w too remembered and brought up things (with resentment) from many, many years ago. And also said she was just "tired" of pretending that everything was okay and that the marriage had been bad for many years (without mentioning it to me).
It is surprising how nice your w is to you on the occasions that you are together and her continued desire to go to church together. You are the only other person I remember on here that had a w like me who imaged that after the end of the R, we would still be one big happy family (even if she was in a relationship with someone else).
Best wishes. Is school re-opening for your boys or are they going to be online/remote?
Gordie,
Thanks for following. Both sons are expecting to return to campus in the next month but we will see if things change. Yes she is always nice when we see her. Our friends have pushed her to get counseling for our marriage. Her reply is always No thanks, I dont like conflict. I wonder if she thinks divorce will be conflict free? Maybe her being nice is just a act since she is conflict avoidant. It would be nice to find out and get some answers in the future but we will be fine either way.
Still standing,
Taz
The boys and I havent seen or heard from W since 7/4 when we went to mass and dinner. She has not invited us to attend mass with her since. I suspect it must be getting to difficult for her to pretend that all is ok.
Ive been cruising along working, home projects (prepping to pour a concrete sidewalk), hanging with friends, working out and running. Today I had a bad day for the first time in over a month. Not really sure why. Went on a four mile run to sweat out the negative emotions. This always seems to work wonders. I have no expectations other than tomorrow is a new day and I will continue to work on being my best.
Last week I was thinking that her lease will be coming up in seven weeks and hoping that she doesnt ask to come home. I know she and I arent ready for that as we both still have work to do. I know I have a good start but doubt she has even started.
Still standing (after picking myself up of the ground today)
Taz
Taz,
Really am sorry you had a rough day. It sounds like you really are growing and saying that you know you and your wife arent ready to reconcile even though recon is what you want shows a lot of awareness. Im young and new to the whole thing so I wont try to give out any advice but it seems like youre doing great. I hope tomorrows a better day for you.
Sometimes just picking yourself up off the ground and restarting tomorrow is something to be proud of. Ive had to do a lot of picking myself up lately so I know the feeling.
So I got S21 and S19 off to there respective universities. It made me a bit sad but it was time. No word from W. Still no contact since 7/4 except seeing her at mass last weekend. She did ask if she could sit with us and I said of course.
Got me thinking about how no one in her immediate family has reached out to the boys to see how they are. Her FOO is not a healthy bunch when it comes to supporting one other. Probably the root of some of her issues as after her father passed while she was a freshman at college she was basically on her own. When we first started dating she never wanted to visit her mom and younger siblings. She used to comment that they was like a group of strangers when they got together.
Replay is back on after a hiatus. Shes back to chasing after fun and happiness by attending our sons former HS football team events. They are limiting attendance but her new recently divorced friend has sons on the team so she has access to her family allotment of tickets.
Time to get the house cleaned up now that the boys are gone. I see a few improvement projects on the horizon. I also have a trip planned with friends in a month if it doesnt become a COVID casualty.
Still standing,
Tax
Hi Taz,
I just finished reading your sitch. I have an IHS and he is dealing with MLC. I have, in the last year and a half, dealt with a teenager living in the other room. Definitely weird.
One thing stood out that your Son wondered if she had dementia, as she had forgotten him and his brother. I know it was driven by the fact she has ignored them lately, but I know early in my situation, H did not reach out to D25 while she was in grad school, he recently told her he wants a divorce, and he ignored our pets. I seriously thought before the initial BD almost 16 months ago, that I WAS dealing with him and dementia. Once the BD that forgetfulness left. I think his brain was trying to process so much he could not keep track. Once it came to a head, he was able to get back to his normal brain.
I am sorry youre here. It does seem like youre doing very well processing this. Youve got this.
PLC
So after 9 weeks of silence I get a text from W at work last week, Want to meet me tomorrow night at xxx? Needless to say I was shocked. I waited 4 hours to clear my head and responded Sure.
Its been 11 months since BD and this is the first time shes wanted to meet with me alone. I went with no expectations but figured this could go one of 3 ways.
1. She is filing for divorce.
2. She wants to come home.
3. ???
So we we had dinner, a few beers and light conversation about our sons, families, sports and current events. No relationship talks. So I guess #3 was the outcome. Im still perplexed by this random reach out. Was this just a temp check?
Still standing,
Taz
Hello Taz
It looks like you handled yourself and that meeting just fine.
How long was dinner and the conversation?
Could have been a temp check. Good job with no R talks. It sounds like you were you. And a nice safe place to land. Well done!
Yes, it is perplexing. Let time reveal whats going on. Dig for patience, and keep doing what youre doing.
W is like a timid scared squirrel, so no pressure, sudden movements, or chasing.
You are doing great.
D
D - Our meeting lasted just a bit less than 2 hours.
Yesterday was our 23rd wedding anniversary and my thoughts turned toward her quite often throughout the day. I considered reaching out by text to see if she wanted to go have dinner/ drinks but decided not to since we were just together a few short days ago.
I did send her a short email Thinking about you a lot today, hope you are well. Probably shouldnt have done this but I just wanted to acknowledge that I remembered the importance of the date and was thinking of her.
Ended up going out for a beer and dinner alone which was actually ok.
Hope I didnt set things back by sending that email.
Taz
Taz,
DNJ just wrote to you no pressure.
Did she respond? If not you definitely set yourself back.
LH - Yep, you are right that email was pressure. I doubt she will respond and thats ok. Ill get back to NC because that was working for me.
Thanks for the 2x4. Sometime we are our own worst enemy in these situations. The stove is hot so dont touch it.
Taz
So after 9 weeks of silence I get a text from W at work last week, Want to meet me tomorrow night at xxx? Needless to say I was shocked. I waited 4 hours to clear my head and responded Sure.
Its been 11 months since BD and this is the first time shes wanted to meet with me alone. I went with no expectations but figured this could go one of 3 ways.
1. She is filing for divorce.
2. She wants to come home.
3. ???
So we we had dinner, a few beers and light conversation about our sons, families, sports and current events. No relationship talks. So I guess #3 was the outcome. Im still perplexed by this random reach out. Was this just a temp check?
Still standing,
Taz
Hi Taz,
I am not following your sitch, but the post above caught my eye.
As you know, no R talk is good. If she brings R up, listening and validating are your goals. Listen to understand. Do not share your point of view. STFU is the rule. Direct questions get a deflection--> "I am not sure. I need time to think about that". Then discuss here, make a decision, and give her a response.
You have had 11 months to work on yourself. Were you behaving different? Do you think she noticed a difference?
We are all given the gift of time to work on ourselves going through this process. Do you believe she found you more attractive than the guy (YOU) she left?
The game of attraction and seduction is complicated until we learn the new skills needed. Then it is easy. Have you learned and practiced these new skills?
You may be one of the lucky ones that gets a chance to reconcile the R.
Do not chase the squirrel.
RC,
Yes I have been working on me. My main problem according to the W was my negativity and that I complained about everything. I dont do that any more. Actually when I ask others if they see me this way they laugh but I know I did this around her more than I should have.
When I met with the wife she was very quiet and didnt lead the conversation. So I asked her about her work and new supervisor she noted a few items she didnt like about her and I just listened and validated. She also was distraught that our sons dont communicate with her so I just listened and validated. Issues with her family listened and validated.
W is an introvert, bottler of emotions, and conflict avoider so it is tough to communicate with her these days. She most likely wants to divorce but good luck getting her to say this. She is the type of person who has a tough time deciding what she wants to order at a restaurant.
I am taking advantage of this me time by working out, running, hanging with my bros, home improvement projects, joined a mens group at church, and being the best dad I can be for my two college aged sons. I would like to R with her but will be ok either way. I know she has a lot of resentment built up for me. Maybe shell burn through it but Im not holding my breath. I wish she would work on herself but I have seen no indication that she is. Her reasons for leaving when I asked 11 months ago are very odd events or something that happened long ago. One was over 25 years ago.
She doesnt have an OM yet but I heard she has one on her radar. Poor fool would not be getting a good version of her these days. Mutual friends have told me she acts like a lost teen.
Thanks for checking in,
Taz
T,
Yeah I think its pretty clear you got temp checked to see if your on the hook while she pursues this other guy. Youre in a tough spot right now because you made it easy for her to pursue other interests knowing she can still fall back on you if it doesnt work out. Thats very comforting to her.
I would turn down any future invites to get together. You are too busy leading an amazing life.
Good Morning Taz
Its a cool morning here with a clear blue sky. And in a rarity, not a breath of wind. The leaves are turning colour and the grass has slowed its growth considerably. I hope your day is well too.
We all touch the hot stove at first, sometimes repeatedly.
Dont chase the squirrel. W needs time and space too hopefully realize you are not the cause of her pain and torment. She also needs to feel she lost you. And a good way to do that - live a good and full life. There is no manipulation of her journey; its all about yours.
I am a big proponent for accuracy; accuracy in thought and heart. Seeing things accurately pushes back denial and ensure ones efforts are working towards the desired affect. For example:
I did send her a short email Thinking about you a lot today, hope you are well.
This is accurate and factual. Its honest and true. You were thinking about her, without doubt.
Probably shouldnt have done this but I just wanted to acknowledge that I remembered the importance of the date and was thinking of her.
You can acknowledge the date without telling her.
Accuracy: You wanted her to acknowledge the date. You wanted her to remember. You wanted her to feel the importance that you felt.
Its ok, perfectly normal. Seeing your intentions clearly will allow you to alter them, and increase your success because you are working on what is actually going on inside you.
You know this. You state, you probably shouldnt have done this but... Everything after but is inaccurate justification for doing what you knew was a poor choice. Been there man, it is a tough place to get through.
We all want validation and acknowledgment. She isnt the one to go to for that right now. She needs time and space.
Dont worry about this, pretty much anything you do wont really affect Ws path. It does affect yours however. Learning and moving forward. Now, theres an accurate statement!
With all that being said, when W reaches out again - be Taz, a man only a fool would leave.
As has been wisely said already, lead an amazing life and dont be plan B.
How does that ^^^ fit in with the advice that you shouldnt send the email about the anniversary? If you and W are to reconnect/reconcile it will be a new relationship. Now, dont misread and get ahead of this, go slowly. Really slowly.
If/when she wants to see you or speak with you. I would. Fit her into your schedule where you can and want too. However, think new. This is a new R. Brand new. A meeting would be like a first coffee date to see if this person is some crazy stalker or someone youd like to see again. Keep your history out of it. Its a somewhat starting over mindset.
That may seem disingenuous and not accurate. Might look like sweeping everything under the rug, its not. MLCers walk an irrational path. For the time being W is not living fully in the present moment and has purposefully forgotten/ignored most of your shared history. She is a lost teen, which you and others have actually seen. For her those resentments from 25 years ago are not; they are yesterday. An emotional crisis is time travel for the addled mind. They relive their past, desperately running, and needing to grow up from it.
If her journey takes her through her crisis and she emerges, she and her history will come back slowly. It is then that things can be discussed. That is a long way away. Be patient. Youve got the gift of time, use it wisely.
By the way, all this advice and suggestions are for you. Never forget you are the most important person in this equation. Find your values and beliefs, strengthen those you want, alter or discard those you dont, and live them. Stand for them. Stand for you.
This path you are on is a long road, and you will live your convictions and beliefs. Feeling do flit. It is deep held beliefs that ones strength and will comes from. Be very accurate in examining your values. Become the best version of you.
I hope your day is a bright one.
D
I would turn down any future invites to get together.
You definitely do not want to jump at every offer. You also want to switch who is in control. She is in control at the moment.
First time:
I get a text from W at work last week, Want to meet me tomorrow night at xxx? Needless to say I was shocked. I waited 4 hours to clear my head and responded Sure.
Second time:
I get a text from W Want to meet me tomorrow night at yyy? I wait 6 hours. I respond I can't. Already have plans.
Third time:
I get a text from W Want to meet me tomorrow night at zzz? I respond Already have plans.
At some point, you can respond with "ABC works better for me." or a boundary "when you wait until the day before bla bla bla ..." or you can decline every invite and wait until she comes begging you to take her back because she made a mistake.
Good Morning Taz
How are you doing?
Are your sons attending their colleges, or is it online classes?
My kids universities are all online this semester, and it sounds likely to be the next one as well. The campus is actually closed.
Some of the labs need to be hands on, and special permissions are required. S19 is in an advanced physics labs and is one of a few that have keys to the campus. Upcoming experiments for him are exploring the quantum properties of our reality. He and I sure have some interesting discussions.
Have a great day my friend.
D
D,
Both are living on campus. I think 50% of their classes are in person and the remainder online. I dont know all the details as communication is not their forte. I try to limit my texts with them to a couple a week. When I get a response that is more than a word or two I am shocked.
Taz
D,
S21 reached out to me today, said he hasnt heard from W in three weeks. I know he hasnt seen her in over two months. This is just so bizarre. She was a good mother to them. I accept this but it just doesnt make sense.
Hello Taz
Yes, the behaviour of an MLC spouse is quite bizarre. The complete opposite of who they once were.
These crisis people are emotionally dragged back to long ago torment(s) and pain, and relive that portion of their lives, over and over. They cannot face what happened or what theyve done in attempt to run from their demons; blaming, projection, justifications, and so on.
Imagine, W is reliving as her 15 year old self. And she is married and has two boys both older than her, who are in college. Both of these realities existing together within her. Such confusion, she really cannot handle all of that. MLCers ignore and run. She knows she has kids and you, yet she cannot face that. Her emotions are cranked to 11, and she needs time and space to sort them out.
Her moments of facing reality bring with it all the guilt and shame of what she has done. That necessitates more running. It must be such a horrible journey to be on.
MLCers will expend incredible energies to maintain their fantasy. They have to.
However, they do recall, when their lives are quiet and still, like in the still of the night. Laying in bed, in the darkness, the demons come out to play. Lots of crisis people look sleep deprived; they cannot sleep and they use vices to avoid those quiet times.
My XW has texted one son at midnight and another five hours later at 5:00 am. She often looks haggard; I suspect her dreams are not pleasant.
The good and loving Mom, is buried under layers of guilt, shame, torment, and pains from long ago. As such, she can go for a long while without contacting her children, and when she does it is a shallow and empty conversation. These lost souls lose track of time, as they relive their pain and run. The world goes on, with them unaware of how much time is passing them by. As they try to make up for lost time, they loose so much more.
There is plenty to wrap ones head around to make sense of MLC. A lot to accept. I found it a good path to seek understanding, compassion, and empathy. Give it time for these to grow and flourish, for if you attempt to rush youll drive yourself bonkers.
You are coming up on one year post BD - September 29th. W knows the date too. Plan to do something. If W calls, you got things to do and youll call her back, later. If she doesnt call... either way you had a fun night out.
Take it on faith. The path of the LBS takes time to make sense of too.
You got this.
D
D,
I survived the one year post BD day. Went to Key West with a group of friends for 5 days and had a great time. W finally reached out to S19 and S21. She sent them each a card saying she missed them and wanted to spend some time with them. S21 said he texted her and told her that would be nice. Time will tell if she follows through.
S21 is really starting to mature and become an adult. The other day he told me that Mom currently has the communication skills of a middle schooler. This agrees with your previous post on them regressing to a younger age.
Take care and get that snow blower ready,
Taz
Hello Taz
Good for you getting away for five days. Glad you had a great time.
Interesting S21 placing Mom around the communication level of a middle schooler. Im thinking your S21 sees pretty clearly. No doubt due to the fine guidance from you.
Thanks for the reminder. I really got to get my snowblower on earlier this year.
D
Got a text from W today on my way into church. I asked my attorney to file. We will email you more info next week.
I havent responded. Any advice? Not sure how to validate that or even if I should.
Taz
Hello Taz
I feel for you. A text like that coming out of the blue is quite a gut punch.
There is no need to respond, she has not asked a question. If she has made up her mind to file, anything you say to the contrary will just add fuel to the fire. There is also no need to agree, for you dont. Be patient and see what information comes your way. Ensure your financial security and protection are met in the agreement.
A lot of MLCers like to jerk around their spouse, playing games and not actually submitting an agreement. Just looking for a rise or a fight from you. If she pushes a D forward, let her own it and let her do the heavy lifting.
Keep moving forward and give her to God.
You are doing great. You will be ok.
D
I agree with DnJ in spirit but in practice, DnJ's experience versus mine is a good lesson for ya. DnJ's W filed and did it all so quickly that she wasn't able to try to destroy him and gave up her right to everything. If you have read my story, you can see an alternative outcome to letting the other side do a lot of heavy lifting, at least if she really does file. My H waited five years to file, and has spent the last two years trying to destroy me, all things far worse than anything he had done as a regular MLC guy.
My advice is to be ready to get the D done as quickly as possible, if she files, and every time you are tempted to think that getting a D has anything to do with your standing,remind yourself of the different outcomes of my story and DnJ's. The D is only a business deal, and the MLCer is a terrible business partner. So, if she files, try to get it done as quickly as you can so you can have business out of the way and can focus on real standing, if you want to stand. Otherwise you risk getting sucked into a horror show like mine, which went so far south that I had to give up the idea of standing because my dude became so scary that I could not ever put my life in his hands again. I have many friends in the standing world who got a D quickly and their marriages were restored. Then there are a bunch of us who stood for years and kept the faith, and then the marriage was not restored.
It hurts like hello, believe me, I know. But her filing is just like her popping pills or getting drunk or having an OM or anything else she is trying to fix the pain. It won't work. But it will affect your finances and your peace. So get it done fast and then start standing if you want to stand!
Hello Taz
Gerdas situation, and her wisdom, is a good caution.
The path of the LBS is twofold - the emotional / healing side and the business side. Keep them separate.
If you need financial protection and security, then get it. Treat it like a business deal gone bad.
Yes, my XW dumped me, left, and divorced in record time. There is something to be said for expedience. I do believe that a better deal can be made sooner than later. MLCers at the beginning, soon after BD, usually are guilty and more willing to give up kids, money, assets - to assuage their guilt and/or to just get away, as is my XWs case.
That sounds kind of bad, doesnt it? Me so coldly laying it out like that. It is business; stay in the intellectual realm and make decisions from there.
Your emotional and healing path. Be kind and compassionate. Find detachment and indifference. Discover that these tenets are not exclusive from each other; they actually mesh quite well.
D
One of S19s roommates tested positive so he is under quarantine for two weeks. He opted to come home for virtual learning as he didnt want to be cooped up in a dorm room for two weeks. So far he has no symptoms and one negative test result. He will most likely be home till mid January as the university is closing campus on 11/24 anyway.
S19 did not fill W in on the situation and said he did not want to. Should I?
I have been assembling paperwork to support Ws D. I have talked to a few attorneys but have not hired one yet. The paperwork Ws attorney sent said they wanted to settle by agreement. Plan on waiting to see what this agreement proposal looks like before retaining representation. Maybe her guilt will work in my favor.
Still no OM but I have heard some interesting rumors. W has a crush on a former classmate of S19. She sees him at the HS football games as he has younger brothers on the team. She seeks him out to have chats with him after the games. Her friends tease her and refer to her as Stifflers Mom in reference to the movie American Pie. I find this very odd but in the wold of MLC all is fair game.
Taz
One of S19s roommates tested positive so he is under quarantine for two weeks. He opted to come home for virtual learning as he didnt want to be cooped up in a dorm room for two weeks. So far he has no symptoms and one negative test result. He will most likely be home till mid January as the university is closing campus on 11/24 anyway.
S19 did not fill W in on the situation and said he did not want to. Should I?
I have been assembling paperwork to support Ws D. I have talked to a few attorneys but have not hired one yet. The paperwork Ws attorney sent said they wanted to settle by agreement. Plan on waiting to see what this agreement proposal looks like before retaining representation. Maybe her guilt will work in my favor.
Still no OM but I have heard some interesting rumors. W has a crush on a former classmate of S19. She sees him at the HS football games as he has younger brothers on the team. She seeks him out to have chats with him after the games. Her friends tease her and refer to her as Stifflers Mom in reference to the movie American Pie. I find this very odd but in the wold of MLC all is fair game.
Taz
IMO S19 is a young adult. And besides that, his test came back negative and he has no symptoms. That being said, I suppose you would want to know if the situation were reversed. I would have a talk with S19 and gently try to persuade him to tell his mother. If he feels strongly against telling her, then I guess I would respect his wishes.
As for your W's amorous endevours, it is best to distance yourself. I know it must be friggin hard to distance yourself from it, but it is her monkey and her circus, as well it is her roller coseter ride and you do not want any part of it. So get off the roller coaster and do prepare yourself financially. Start working out what would be acceptable to you, do some math and to it properly. Do not count on her being "fair", because she will not be. It is ith the WAS code that your definition and her definition of fairness differ greatly. She most likely feels that she has been suffering for decades when she was with you (rewriting history) and that she is entiteled to compensation. Key word being - entitelment.
Hello Taz
I am sorry S19 has had a close contact with Covid. It does ramp up ones anxiety. Glad to hear hes had a negative test result so far.
S19 did not fill W in on the situation and said he did not want to. Should I?
Nope.
S19 is an adult and can decide who he wishes to tell what. Especially in matters of health.
Adult children are adults. They have a right to their privacy. We have been granted privileges to visit them. That is the model and ideals I utilize with my kids. My kids do not extend XW/Mom the same privileges that I enjoy.
Perhaps Ws proposed settlement will be acceptable. Her guilt might work in your favour. It doesnt hurt to review the proposal. If seemingly ok to you, get a lawyer to review, and then finalize. If the proposal falls short, you can counter offer back (use a L).
Stifflers Mom. Yes, the world of MLC can lead to some strange places. My XW did some flirting with high school boys as well, all while she is living with OM. My kids didnt like that much.
D
If S19 is staying with you I hope you are quarantining him from yourself. He can be contagious even without symptoms. I know every living situation is different but an ideal setup would be separate bedroom, separate bathroom, masks and more than 6 feet separation within the house for both of you. This virus is no joke - dont mess around.
If he asked you not to tell W, dont tell her. If he was ill that would be one thing, but he might not even catch it, in which case I would respect his wishes.
kml,
I have quarantined from S19 and he has had negative test results and no symptoms so looks like we are good. He was ok with his mom knowing the situation but he did not want to converse with her.
He was close with his mom and has not reached a point where he wants to talk to her and asked me to let her know. So I did text her to let her know what was going on. She was thankful for the information but has not inquired about him since the text.
This is something I struggle with. W used to know everything that was going on in his life. Now she just seems to accept that their relationship is dead (or just on hold hopefully).
Its now up to me to be a dadX2. I am glad to do it but hope that I am enough for now. I use DnJ as a role model.
Taz
Hello Taz
Its now up to me to be a dadX2. I am glad to do it but hope that I am enough for now. I use DnJ as a role model.
Gosh, thank you.
You are doing great Taz. Yep, Dadx2. You got this! Ive got faith in you.
D
S19 and S21 are both home from college and wont be headed back until mid January. We had to celebrate Thanksgiving here as my mom cancelled due to the up tick in Covid cases in our state. S21 thought it would be nice to invite W over and I agreed. He reached out to her and she accepted. I did the cooking (Turkey, stuffing, noodles etc.) and she brought a dish of sweet potatoes.
So she joined us for a late afternoon dinner. She stayed for over two hours and we all had some nice discussions about everything except our family situation.
The boys do not know that she filed and I will hold off telling them until I feel it is necessary. I at least want to wait until they complete the semester final exams in a few weeks.
She filed 6 weeks ago and I have not heard from her lawyer in four weeks. I have my financial paperwork filled out but will not forward until it is requested. Not sure if she submitted hers yet.
It was a good day. Nice not having to spend 5 hours driving but did miss some of moms cooking.
Taz
You are very courageous, Taz!!! Such strength to have her come to Tgiving and to keep that secret.
Garda,
I am trying to practice the example of compassion that DnJ shows. Its easy In my situation with a low energy vanisher who has never monstered and doesnt have an AP.
S21 and I just feel sorry for her. She still has not said or written the D word. Just a short text stating that she filed. Part of me wonders if she just did it to get a reaction out of me. If so that did not work as I still treat her the same.
Not sure how S19 feels about his mom as he is guarded with his feelings just like his mom. I just try to show him Im here for him when he is ready to open up.
Taz
Good Morning Taz
Im glad you had a good Thanksgiving Day. And I agree, Moms cooking would have been nice and was missed.
Good for you having W over. You are walking a fine path my friend.
No ones situation starts out easy. A low energy vanisher without a suspected AP is still difficult. It is us that turns it into something easier. It is our outlook, choices, compassion, empathy, and beliefs, that turn our individual situations for the better. It is excellent you now see your situation as easy.
Imagine, if everyone had to dump their problems, stresses, concerns, and so on, into a big pile where everyone could see everyone elses. Then we had to choose our problems. We all would rush to grab our own problems back.
Its the 83 problems we all carry. The 84th one - thinking we shouldnt have any problems - when one sees the truth in that 84th problem, accepts it, and solves it, things become easier. We all have 83 problems. Always. And we get to choose which ones we carry around.
The boys do not know that she filed and I will hold off telling them until I feel it is necessary. I at least want to wait until they complete the semester final exams in a few weeks.
Not sure how S19 feels about his mom as he is guarded with his feelings just like his mom. I just try to show him Im here for him when he is ready to open up.
You suspect the boys do not know she filed - you dont know. Unless you asked Did you know that Mom filed for divorce?. Of course then they would know. So until then, you can at best suspect they are in the dark about this. They may be choosing not to open up.
S21 seems rather open. He did suggest inviting W/Mom over for dinner. S19 is guarding his feelings more than S21. You are leading their way, be their beacon.
Did S19 interact with Mom when she was over? Did S21?
You could break the ice for S19 with small queries or observations of their interactions. Or the events of the day. It may start him talking, or not.
From my experiences, my kids had some mixed up feelings. We did talk. And I shared my feelings probably more than they shared theirs at first. Once they see Dad being ok with being sad, sorry for Mom, compassionate, and forgiving; it is ok for them to be as well. They are looking for guidance. And that is not solving their feelings or problems. It is leading by example. Putting aside your fears and doubts and sharing, empathizing, and demonstrating how to walk in the light. How to forgive.
As I said, you are walking a very fine path Taz. I believe that having the three of you under one roof until mid-January could be a very good thing.
You have six weeks. What do you want to accomplish the that time? What do you want to demonstrate to your boys?
Compassion? Understanding? Forgiveness? Hope?
What good times do you want to have? What memories do you hope they will gain?
Now, dont go changing gears. Be yourself. With a bit of a vision in mind is all.
This at first so horrible path of the LBS is actually quite an incredible opportunity. I believe you realize that.
Its also quite horrible for the kids. Do you think they yet see, experienced, or believe in their own incredible opportunity?
That, is the beacon for a parent to become.
We show them by living it.
D
Update,
W had a birthday on the 16th, S19 and S21 got her a card and a small gift. They sent her a text but she did not reply so S21 eventually dropped the gift off at her door a few days later. She did eventually reply "thanks, you should of knocked and came in to visit" He just replied that it was late and he didn't want to wake her. Actually he told me just doesn't want to go in her apartment.
She texted me a few days before Christmas asking if we wanted to sit with her at church for Christmas mass. I checked with S19 and he was up for it so I replied back that we would join her. S21 was out of town and couldn't attend with us. After mass she gave S19 small gift bags for him and his brother and S19 gave one to her from them in the parking lot.
She still hasn't told the boys she filed for D. I guess she's leaving that to me. Should I tell them? Or wait for her to garner the courage to do it?
I am keeping busy with GAL and had a nice Christmas visiting my family with S19.
Still standing,
Taz
Good Morning Taz
Im glad to hear your Christmas was good. Nice to see S19 joined you visiting your family.
Its unfortunate W didnt/wouldnt respond timely to the text from the boys about their Birthday gifts for her. Just dropping it off at the door was most likely not what they wanted to do. The exchange of Christmas gifts sounds like it went better and more like they would have wanted it.
S21 not wanting to go inside her apartment is pretty normal. The MLCers level of strangeness and confusion is usually shown in their living surrounds; difficult thing for a son (or daughter) to see.
She still hasn't told the boys she filed for D. I guess she's leaving that to me. Should I tell them? Or wait for her to garner the courage to do it?
Yes, tell them. They are old enough to know and deserve to know.
You wanted them to know, after this semesters exams. Id tell them soon, like today, so they can have some time to adjust, question, and start the acceptance process before the start of the next semester.
Consider it this way. Do you want them to know? Pretty sure, thats an of course I want them to know.
Would you rather W (STBXW ?) tells them? Probably yes. So why? Maybe something regarding having W take ownership or admittance of what shes done. You cant control that, you cant force that, and you end up waiting around.
You control you. You respect your boys, and they deserve to know the truth. Yes, it would be nice (maybe) if W could/would own up; of course, if she could she wouldnt be in a crisis doing what shes doing.
You left the heavy lifting of filing to W. The letting the boys know the necessary facts is falling to you it seems. Rather standard in my opinion, as MLCers become pretty secretive about the important stuff.
You are standing and moving forward.
Please let me know how the conversation with the boys goes.
D
Hi Taz.
Hope your holidays went well. Was wondering if the conversation of divorce came up with your boys? 19 & 21 right?
Just recently I had the divorce talk with my D4. That went over well. (pop over to my posts for details). My D was final just before Halloween. And I've been asking XH repeatedly for his input on what to say to D4. He's never given me any assistance there, just an "I don't know". I felt like, he was the one who left, so he should say something or at the very least, give me something to work with. But in the end, it was me that told her, and that's okay. Don't wait if it's weighing on you.
Your S19 & S21 are use to their parents living apart, yes? These young men probably have the notion that divorce may be in the works. Maybe they don't want to bring it up with you because they aren't sure if they should. I started the conversation off with my D4 by talking about my wedding ring, that I wasn't wearing it anymore because we were no longer married.
Once the conversation starts, things get easier.
Please help, I need some sage advice and all opinions are welcome.
S21 went to visit W tonight with the intention of convincing her to go see a therapist. He returned saying that she was in tears mainly over how S19 interacts with her. They were very close and the separation has turned him apathetic towards her. So S21 came home and said she is willing to have all of us meet with a family counselor to work on our family communication issues.
Is this a good idea? Are we even a family right now? Would a counselor even work with us in our current fractured state. I would be willing to go if it would help Ws relationship with the boys. I realize that this would not be MC or address any of those issues. Maybe I should just have her and the boys go.
I personally think that she needs IC first.
I dont think she mentioned the divorce to S21 and I havent yet either.
Taz
Taz,
I think its ok to go as long as you have no expectations that its anything other then how to communicate as a family.
Why do you think she needs IC first?
LH,
I think she is MLC and needs more time. She currently has the communication skills of Middle Schooler - this was a quote from S21. She has avoided tough conversations her whole life. It seems fruitless to have a counseling session on communication when she hasnt been able to communicate effectively for years when the topic is sensitive.
She has only seen our sons 2 times since 4th of July and they have been here at the family home a lot due to COVID college schedules.
Maybe this will help. I guess its worth the time. Might give me an opportunity to validate W and the boys feelings.
Yeah no expectations.
Taz
Hello Taz
A family counselling session is not a good idea.
My kids treat XW much the same as S19 is treating his Mom. That is a normal evolution and consequence from what their Mom has done.
Some advice. Do not get it the middle of it. Let S19 and Mom sort out their relationship. You injecting yourself into the middle, with all good intentions, will back fire upon you. Been there. Done that. Please listen. Its not a fun time! When things go south between son and Mom, and they will, if you are involved you are going to got get blamed from both sides.
Your W is in crisis. She is incapable of empathy. She cannot handle her own feelings never mind anyone elses. Counselling will be perverted into a justification and reason for why she had to leave and why the family is the way it is. She cannot yet look to herself or her actions.
Your boys can speak with you. They are well balanced and adjusted. It is not them that is having a communication problem. Mom hasnt spoken to them for months. And much longer since truly speaking with them - stuff like values, life, morals, etc.
The boys are finding their way to incorporate and express their values with what Mom has done. And she doesnt like it. She is a teenager and is attempting to shift the blame.
Is this a good idea? Are we even a family right now?
IMHO, family counselling is not a good idea. And not needed.
You and the boys are family. A strong good family. W is currently not part of that.
I am living a similar situation my friend. My four kids and I are a strong happy healthy family. It was a heck of road to get here, and well worth the effort.
Some inspirational ideas and suggestions for you Taz. Tell your boys about the divorce. They deserve to know. And it will be better for you, honest.
Change your signature line to STBXW. She is not XW yet, but not W either. Be accurate for you. (By the way, I know and empathize with how much that svcks.)
Be Dad. Make your relationship with your boys. Build it stronger and better, everyday. Make it the best you can. (Stop worrying or considering STBXWs relationship with them. That is their relationship and their responsibility.)
Forgive. Find it. Believe it. Live it.
Stand. Stand for you. I know you have strong moral values. Ones you would die for. Now, do better - live for them!
Living for our beliefs is harder (at first) and way way more fulfilling.
Head up and live tall my friend. Your path is an honourable one. Much respect.
D
I agree w/what DnJ posted to you. It's not wise to have a family counseling session at this time. If anyone should be seeing a counselor on their own right now is your w. She needs to look deeply within herself and figure out why she feels the way that she does. She can't do that if the focus is on the "family" unit.
Also, your children are old enough to speak and/or interact w/their mother and you have to step aside and allow their interactions w/their mother play out. Yes, you can listen and offer advice to them, but don't get in the middle of the mix when it comes to attempting to "fix" the communication problems between the parties.
Step back, allow things to play out and if you think you need counseling, then go...solo.
So I put my big boy pants on today and had heart to heart conversations with S21 and S19. Told them about the pending D. I did not vilify STBXW, just told them that she seems broken right now and its up to her to seek the help she needs.
Told them that I will continue pray for her and show her compassion when the situation arrives.
Told them that they need to decide how they interact with her going forward and I will support their decisions.
Hope I did ok.
Taz
Hello Taz
Well done!
Good for you.
Having those open honest heartfelt conversations with our children is needed, and feels so difficult. I am positive they appreciated you being honest with them and confirming the pending divorce and the irrational situation with their Mom, which they surely can see.
Letting them know that you support them is excellent. They will need your support and guidance. Its a matter of gently guiding them, while listening to their emotions and struggles. Grief is a process, with twists and turns, as one travels towards acceptance. Kids are no different, for they have lost something as well. Be their beacon who demonstrates how to be kind and cordial, compassionate and understanding, and live a great life. They will follow. Have faith and believe in yourself.
Very good not demonizing or vilifying Mom. Remaining calm and open encourages the kids to reach out to you. In time, I suspect they will ask many questions. Continue being open and honest in your response. Strong, stable, and non-disparaging towards Mom will serve you and your family well.
Good job Dad!
D
So I put my big boy pants on today and had heart to heart conversations with S21 and S19. Told them about the pending D. I did not vilify STBXW, just told them that she seems broken right now and its up to her to seek the help she needs.
Told them that I will continue pray for her and show her compassion when the situation arrives.
Told them that they need to decide how they interact with her going forward and I will support their decisions.
Hope I did ok.
Taz
I think this is perfect. It's tempting to try and help but whatever you do - let them navigate their own R's with their mom.
Something I use (from my own IC) is "your relationship with your father is separate as is your relationship with me. I am here to love and support you no matter what you decide. (my sons are 27,23,19)
Good work, Taz. You are doing amazing!
Thanks for all the support. She has done some potentially very hurtful things the past six weeks since thanksgiving that I was trying to shield them from. Oddly it has not bothered me as I thought it would. What bothered me was how it might affect them. S21 knows the full details as I know he was emotionally strong enough to handle it and he took it like a champ. I gave a very less detailed version to S19. I still need to look out for him as he may hear about this from others (I hope not).
I slept well last night. My next goal is to put a little weight back on. I have lost 25lbs over the past 15 months. A lot of this is likely do to my GAL workouts and running but others are concerned I'm too thin.
I haven't shared what I discovered. Some was done to snooping others was just to her not knowing that her Venmo friends are visible to her other friends. She has a secret boyfriend or FWB. Lets put the emphasis on the word boy. If this gets out it would ruin her reputation in our community while dragging the rest of us through the mud as well. I'll keep this secret for the boys and my benefit for now. But not sure I will in the future if it continues.
I would have bet my life savings she would never do something this morally wrong. Glad I didn't.
Taz
I'm dealing with that at the moment as well. X introduced the OW as just an "old friend", new GF.
The older kids see through it, they remember things that I had no idea they knew, but the 19 y/o isn't facing it yet. He's "standing by his dad" in his words.
I don't shield them from anything, but I don't help X dig his grave. I've removed myself from it. At this point I don't even discuss it with the older boys - as I told them, it doesn't have anything to do with me, and I need to keep it that way, for my life going forward, and detachment. S19 makes passing references, but that's about it.
Have told them all they have to make choices with regards to R with their Dad but it's not mine to interfere, just love them and respect their choices.
My best advice, is always be honest. Don't ever cover for them. It destroys the trust that your boys have in YOU, making it your issue.
I did give them each time to ask me questions - about the timeline etc. Some people will just say stay out of it, the truth will out, but I think you know your sons. For mine, they were just as shocked as I was and the truth made them realize that they weren't crazy.
My X went off on me one time because my S22 asked if he had moved out and I confirmed. At that point, X tried to made me the issue. You may have to deal with that at some point, but stand your ground.
So - honesty above all. Kids can deal with that - any lies or deceit will damage relationships. Even if it's to "protect' them.
You will be ok. I am and I was a total mess!
*re: 'boy' friend. Mine is dating probably the most unlikely person. The kids are shocked and even not knowing at first she was OW were just blown away. She's beyond inappropriate (not in age, she has other issues). I know you know this, but truly - it isn't about you.
*re: 'boy' friend. Mine is dating probably the most unlikely person. The kids are shocked and even not knowing at first she was OW were just blown away. She's beyond inappropriate (not in age, she has other issues). I know you know this, but truly - it isn't about you.
I do know its not about me now. Fooling around with a 22 year old college student. A former HS classmate of S21. She is hiding it from everyone as well she should. Every time I think about it I just chuckle. So after partying with his friends on a Saturday night if he is unable to pick up a girl he texts STBXW. Then she sneaks off to his dad's house to get him and shuttle him back to her apt. When I verified this from a safe distance, I saw him exit her vehicle from the back seat where he was hiding during the trip. This was at 2:45AM who would see you at this hour?
So sad to devalue oneself in this manner. He'll be headed back to college this weekend so she'll have to look somewhere else for her happiness and validation. I bet he's never visited sober. From my experience, I recall that sex with a drunk college student is that great.
Taz
I'm glad you can chuckle. The person who came to me with the information didn't understand why I laughed so loud when she told me who it was.
It was just so absurd. I mean - yes, it's sad and all but also...
"From my experience, I recall that sex with a drunk college student isn't that great."
I mean...I have a lot of words, but I don't want to defile your page. LOL Let's just say "umm..no. even the sober ones don't know what the heck they are doing!"
I read that you attend Mass. I will pray for you and your boys. And I guess I'll pray for your XW, too. ; )
Glad you are ok, Taz. Keep focusing on your growth! It will always pay off in full!!
Hi Taz, that's great that you've talked to your boys. Must be a big weight off your shoulders. The conversations that come after will be good ones too. A new bond being formed.
Good Morning Taz
The lows an MLCer sinks too are shocking. Its staggering to watch our spouse become and do things which are so far from their once loving character.
I am so glad to see you know this is not about you. When I could truthfully state that, it was more that I finally felt it wasnt about me; I had known it for some time by that point. Our emotions coming around, solidify and give validation to our thoughts, which for me actually made me feel like I knew that - now.
This is the cusp of acceptance. The path of it becoming a belief, a conviction, a value, a core truth. Something changes within us when we believe and accept, and it is expressed in our thoughts, feelings, and actions. That spiritual path which affects and influences everything.
It is sad how one in crisis so devalues themselves. My XW had openly flirted with the high school boys, at the track met, with my son present, while living with OM. What an emotional mess!
Your STBXW is a troubled and lost soul. She unfortunately is upon a path which you, and really no one, can reach or alter. She must traverse her crisis, herself, and in her time.
We LBS have our path to walk as well. One which we, thankfully, are open to company and suggestions. It is good to see your notation of STBXW. Accurate and accepting. A big step along the path.
Stay strong my friend. Continue walking the good path.
D
Taz, happy/sad that you found this out. Its not about you. I swore up and down to the DB Caoch and 2 ICs that my STBXW could not possibly be having an affair. But guess what.
And WTF is wrong with these people? In my sitch, STBXW is Ivy league educated and beautiful. She knowns as the "Hot Mom" at school. She ghosts out for 3-4 hours on an afternoon with OM who I bet is married . Texts from the house and phone calsl out on her 4 mile bike rides that last 2 hours. How is that fulfilling? It's not.Its rebellion and degrading.
You ask what is good about college sex? It's not about sex it's about rebellion. Your STBXW probably wold have turned this guy down in college.
OK now. Stop snooping. You found out what you needed to know. New OMs or whatever only hurts you. The person you knew would not do this. The completley different person you saw is doing it.
And WTF is wrong with these people?
If we knew that we could REALLY do something! lol
Hi all,
Not much to report in my situation. I completed the financials for STBXW,s D over a month ago but have yet to receive a settlement offer. I am trucking on with my GAL and have only heard from her 2 times since Xmas. One was an email with tax info that I did not respond to and the other was a text to let me know that she visited S19 at school and it went well.
I have seen her from a distance at mass twice and she is always sitting with her new BFF who is also recently divorced.
I have had a few counseling sessions and a discussion with our priest. Dont talk to friends or family about the situation much any more.
I still come here and read almost every day which is very helpful.
Keep up the good work!
Taz
Hello Taz
How did you find the counselling sessions? Or the talk with the priest? Was it helpful?
Is spring starting to spring we here you are? Here, it was -35C this morning, and is predicted to be +11C on Saturday. Wild shift in temperature. Maybe spring is around the corner; Ive had enough of winter. Lol.
Take care buddy.
D
Hi all,
Time for an update. Since my last post both of my sons are a year older and I'm happy to report that I am no longer a parent to any teenagers. S22 graduated with a MET degree from a Big Ten University in May. He only got two tickets to the graduation ceremony and he chose to have me and S20 attend. I am sure STBXW was disappointed but his choice and I stayed out of it. He landed a job as a field service engineer and will be relocating from the Midwest to Colorado when training is complete.
S20 is taking some summer school classes and working part time. He seems quite depressed and is most likely tired of me asking him if he's ok. I have recommended getting him some IC but he doesn't want to so I am still trying to determine how to navigate this. He just can't accept that his mom has changed into a person he no longer recognizes. They have seen each other once in the last 5 months. He can go visit her anytime he wants but refuses too. I assume that seeing her in her current state is just too painful for him.
I'm doing well. I have been killing it with my workouts and cardio and my weight is holding steady. Currently at a BMI of 21. I go out with friends 2-3 times a week and have two long weekend trips planned in the next couple of months.
My fathers health is on the decline and he is no longer able to properly care for his cattle. I have been spending every other weekend or so down on the farm keeping the place mowed, repairing fences, etc. Hope to negotiate a deal with a cattle broker soon to get them sold and put my mother's mind at ease.
Still working on detachment from STBXW. She has not spoken to me since Christmas and I have only received 4 business texts in this timeframe. I have not initiated any contact with her. Her legal team has had my financial declaration for 6 months and I have not heard a peep from them. I know that this means nothing.
I still read daily and appreciate all the sage guidance from the veteran members. I hope one day to be in a place to pay it forward.
Still standing,
Taz
Hello Taz
Its wonderful to hear from you and to get an update. You sound healthy and quite fit. Good for you!
Im so glad S22 choose to have you and S20 attend his graduation. That must be quite validating for you. I know those kind of things were for me. Our kids see and know what is going on. Have faith, they will do right.
Nice to see S22 landed a job. I bet he is excited. Good for him!
Sorry to hear S20 is having some difficulties. Everyone progresses at their own rate.
He seems quite depressed and is most likely tired of me asking him if he's ok. I have recommended getting him some IC but he doesn't want to so I am still trying to determine how to navigate this. He just can't accept that his mom has changed into a person he no longer recognizes.
How to navigate. You only control you, and S20 controls himself. So, lead by example and gently influence.
You are likely correct, S20 is depressed. And if you think are asking if he is ok too often, you probably are.
Instead of questions to gauge his emotional state, talk with him. Tell him of interesting things. Show your interest in his interests. S20 will come around and start filling in all kinds of details.
It takes a good while to gentle encourage someone to walk their path. There are plenty of times in which the person needs to just sit for a while and consider where they are. Thats ok. Perfectly normal. Just be there. And love him.
My goodness there was so many times at the beginning when I just asked such straightforward questions. I cared. I was scared. I didnt know; well to be accurate I didnt remember; how to talk with someone, how to empathize. The more I healed, the better things became.
It will take time for S20 to find acceptance of his Moms new behaviour. He has a lot of grief to traverse. Depression is a necessary and difficult step along that path. Be kind, gentle, and empathize with him.
They have seen each other once in the last 5 months. He can go visit her anytime he wants but refuses too. I assume that seeing her in her current state is just too painful for him.
Taz, learn what the reason is. Dont assume.
I dont mean for you to find out directly. This is an encouragement for your path. An encouragement for you to illustrate a gentle bit of leading and inspiring for your son. You lead him to open up his feelings to you and therefore to himself. Thats the goal. Your task is to find an empathic way to accomplish that.
Ive found encouraging my kids to talk about Mom, her behaviours, how she behaved; talking about the factual situation lead them to talking about their feelings more. Oh my God, she actually showed up at school. In the afternoon. In the middle of the hallway with everyone around. And told you off in front of your classmates. Holy moly! Validating my daughters day lead to her telling me of the embarrassment and anger she felt towards Mom. You probably can see how my summary of my daughters story of her day would further her discussion. People usually want to talk about what matters to them. Just got to find out what that is.
S20 is refusing to see Mom. My S20 does mostly the same thing. I doubt for your son it because its too painful. Id bet son is angry. Is upset with her morals, her choices, her devaluing him in her selfish efforts to live her wonderful life.
You might be surprised at just how deep and wise and strong willed and faithful a son youve raised. It is an incredible conundrum for them - she is his Mom and she is this person. Hed normally have nothing to do with this woman, except she is his Mom. Gentle guidance my friend - these poor kids are looking and trying to find their path amidst the wreckage. Be their role model.
Kind, compassion, understanding, accepting, and forgiving. I know, quite a path. Your light will draw them forward.
I like it. Proud of you.
And now
For whom do you stand?
I really want to hear your beliefs, feelings, and thoughts on this. So no pressure. Lol
D
D,
Currently I am standing for my beliefs and values. I made a commitment that I want to keep. My feelings on this may change in the future. I also want to teach my sons that you need patience and that some things in life are extremely hard. You need to forgive people who hurt you in order to move forward.
My maternal grandmother had a multiple issues and was in and out of mental health facilities. She had multiple personalities and put my grandad through a lot. Most of this was kept a secret from my mother and aunt. When she finally passed my granddad moved on and remarried quite quickly and some family members were pissed. 15 years later on his death bed he finally told my mom everything that was going on including how she was adopted through some shady back channels. My mother asked him why did you stay with her? He replied When a man makes a commitment he keeps it, and who would of taken care of you and your sister if I left. He was a saint.
Now I dont plan on following his lead and being a martyr but I have the utmost respect for him and hope my sons feel the same way about me in the future.
Taz
Good Morning Taz
Well said my friend. Much respect.
Keeping commitments; at times life is hard; forgiving - Im sure your sons respect you and their respect will only grow.
How not to be a martyr? Live your beliefs and values. I think you are doing that by the way.
Martyrdom, like victimhood, is a tough thing to shake. Its kind of insidious the way it permeates and ensnares. Its easy to die for ones convictions. Living our beliefs and values is a much more rewarding path.
You are an excellent role model for your boys. A fine example of a man.
D
Today is my 24th wedding anniversary. Will not be making the same mistake as last year and messaging STBXW. I will just reflect on the positives that came from our former R and enjoy this beautiful day.
2 year BD anniversary will be in 3 weeks. I will be with a group of friends in the Florida Keys having a great time just like last year.
Still standing,
Taz
Just curious, Taz - why exactly are you still standing? Not being facetious, genuinely interested. Since your wife showed a serious serious character flaw in the way she moved out - why do you want her back? Unless you believe she is mentally ill and not responsible for her actions? I mean - she PLANNED to move everything out while you were on a trip.
Some of us were unknowingly married to people with Dark Triad features - narcissism or sociopathy. There's only two types of people who would plan a move like that - someone who was being abused, or someone who had dark triad character defects. Even someone in full blown mania wouldn't normally be able to plan so cunningly. Hence why I ask why you are standing?
KML,
Good question and one I ask myself often. Maybe I’m in denial but I consider her to be mentally ill as it runs in her family. Her mother had a similar episode at the same age, quit her job moved many states away without telling any one. She came back albeit too early and repeated this two more times before she moved back for good. She seems fine now. When life gets hard they all seem to run away in lieu of working on the problem. They are all conflict avoidant.
My stand is for me and my values. I want my sons to respect me. They currently support my decision. I know this may all change in the future but for now this is working for me.
Taz
That's because they have been thaught to avoid their problems.
So they simply run and think if they don't look at it, it will go away, until they reach a point where they can't run anymore. For some people this is never unfortunately, but most do.
Good for you Taz.
Since you are in a good place and live the best live you can currently I guess standing is working for you.
Hello Taz
Sounds like you have found balance and peace. Well done!
Keep shinning.
D
Taz,
Saw you online the other night and read through your sitch. How are things going? Has anything further happened on the divorce process?
BL,
Thank for following. As matter of fact I finally received a settlement offer on 12/27. It only took 11 months. Found a couple of errors that they will need to fix and countered to their requests with what I feel is a fair offer. If they accept I will sign. If not I will hire a lawyer.
STBXW has not seen S22 or S20 since Mother’s Day. She dropped off Xmas gifts for both on the front porch on 1/7. She only lives 3 miles away seems odd she waited till both were gone and won’t be back for a couple months.
I’m still galling and becoming more detached every day.
Taz
Hello Taz
Found a couple of errors that they will need to fix and countered to their requests with what I feel is a fair offer. If they accept I will sign. If not I will hire a lawyer.
Who is “they”? STBXW and OM; or her and L?
Before signing any agreement let a lawyer look it over.
Her dropping off Christmas gifts after the kids left is likely intentional. As is her timing of the settlement agreement being sent to you.
I’m glad the proposed settlement is fair and has a reasonable chance of being accepted by both parties. There are plenty of multi-year horror stories out there. Of course, 11 months isn’t short either. (Well, 2 1/2 years all considered.) A long time to be in financial limbo.
Keep doing you my friend.
D
Yes, definitely get a lawyer to review.
I don't know what kinds of assets there are or whether you're in a community property state. Just be careful about certain things. Division of pensions should go through QDRO. Alimony may be by a formula in your state, but can always be negotiated I think. If you are keeping the house and giving away something in it's place, beware of one things - high property values at present may be inflated - will you still be happy with the deal if property values crash and you've given away a lot of money to keep the house? Or is the house still a good fit for you and something you want to keep long term and can afford?
Does she have an obligation to contribute to your sons' college expenses?
They is STBXW and her L. Home has been paid off for 15+ years. It is a modest 3br ranch that fits me and the boys just fine. I just valued it based on a few comps that sold in the neighborhood. I plan on having agreement reviewed by a L before I sign of course. Since I live in a community property state it is pretty much a 50/50 split. I get to keep the house, all life insurance, vehicle etc. All they want to divide is retirement accounts (no pensions just IRAs), 2 investment accounts, and 50% home value. Pretty simple calculation. Surprised they screwed it up.
S22 is graduated. S20 has one more year of undergrad and potentially law school $$$. I’m not even going to ask for her to contribute unless they get snippy. I currently make 4x what she does so not worth quibbling over at this point. I am in a great place financially although I may need to work a few more years than originally planned to recoup the losses.
Taz
STBXW has not seen S22 or S20 since Mother’s Day. She dropped off Xmas gifts for both on the front porch on 1/7. She only lives 3 miles away seems odd she waited till both were gone and won’t be back for a couple months.
This is the most bizarre thing to me - not that it's unique to your situation - but how can a parent and especially mother completely cut off and ignore their children? I get the WAS/WS blaming the LBS (even if it's misguided/misdirected), but the children? I guess it goes to show sometimes people are just running away from anything in their past to be happy.
I’m still galling and becoming more detached every day.
Glad to hear it!
Before signing any agreement let a lawyer look it over.
Yes, definitely get a lawyer to review.
I plan on having agreement reviewed by a L before I sign of course.
Completely agree on having a L review before making anything official. You don't have to tell her you're doing so or have the L involved, but it's important agreement and justifies a professional review even if it's just for peace of mind that you didn't miss anything.
Please start a new thread and link both threads together.