Previous thread....
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2854099&page=11Additional musings to follow at a later time.
Life is still good.
Grace
Heading home from a wonderful mini-vacation seeing family and a few friends. It was awesome.
One of the friends I re-connected with was a friend from high school. Haven’t seen her in maybe 3 years at least. I messaged her about a week ago to see if she could get together. It was almost an afterthought as I didn’t think I’d have time. I think God prompted me to do it.
She has a long-term partner of almost 30 years. Turns out she has been separated for almost 5 years. Philandering involved and just not being a good partner for her. He also has very serious health issues. Anyway, long story shorth, I didn’t know any of this, and when I asked about him, she burst into tears. She said she was so relieved as she had no one to talk to for 5 years about it! She has been helping him because of the health issues even though he is with someone else. Well, the flood gates opened, and she said she knows it’s time to drop the rope (my words, but you know what I mean). I asked to meet her again today before I get on my plane. She needs me. I think God prompted our get together, as I think I will be able to help her.
I am strong.
I realized that this week. All these months has prepared me for this next phase. Thursday, on the day H signed for the new place, this popped up on my FB first think in the morning.
“God knew it would come to this. It’s OK. He has a plan.”
And it will be o.k.
I fear I have some ugliness coming my way. Yesterday H sent one message. “S22 has been fairly abusive by text and your daughter has blocked me on her phone. Thanks for handling this so well.”
I didn’t respond. After all. He didn’t ask a question, did he?
D20 is in a bad way. Lots of anxiety. The mental health provider I was hoping she could get into has a waiting list. So, I’ve got others she will call this week. I’m thankful she is asking for help. Mom the therapist is helping in the meantime. So thankful she trusts me and we are close.
Tomorrow I meet with the attorney and tackle the finances. Soon, very soon, I will probably file for D.
I think I’m o.k. with it. It’s time to turn H completely over to God.
Grace
Sounding good Grace.
It’s really nice you reconnected with your friend and gave her a shoulder to lean on.
H’s text blaming you for how the kids are reacting to him, was handle beautiful. Let him be. Let him stew in what he crafted. S22 and D20 are adults and can express their feelings to Dad how they wish. Their relationship is just that - their’s; H is just trying to bring you into the middle of it. A no response was perfect. Of course you know you can guide your kids a little, if and when it is asked for, or needed. You know the power of compassion and kindness for one’s self. The kid’s emotions will settle and they can walk the better and not bitter path, like their strong Mom.
Sorry D20 is having a difficult time. This is a lot to take in, a lot to process. Glad she is reaching out to you.
I’ll be thinking about you while you are at the meeting with lawyer. I hope it goes well.
DnJ
Just sending you some thread love, Grace. Sounds like you are thinking clearly about what you feel you need to do. And I get those ridiculous e-mails blaming me for H's mess too. They are so lost but I guess it's so much easier to blame us than to see what is actually happening. I just wish our kids didn't have to carry the burden!
Just a quick update.....
Things are moving along. Confirmed that the purchase was with OW and "Joint Tenant". Attorney states I don't have a right to it because he only took "his half" of the investment. I don't want it anyway, but was hoping it would be a better bargaining chip.
H is an idiot.
S22 states he has been e-mailing H a bit. H said he was living in not great places, and "mom moved on" so he basically justified that as a reason to move in with OW. Another deflection of blame. I think S22 still has hopes H will come to his senses soon and we will reconcile. I told him it isn't likely. There was more. It's his process.
D20 will not talk about him, and hasn't been in contact. Her process.
H is an idiot.
I interviewed a 3rd attorney today, and liked her. Straight shooter, seemed very knowledgeable, said I will do just fine out of the settlement based on the info I gave her. I will retain her.
Equal amount of cash is liquidated today, and should be transferred to my own savings account by Friday or at the latest Tuesday. I will inform H once it's wired.
I have decided to contact H to tell him we need to work out a formal separation agreement. I think this is best. If he balks, I will serve him with D papers sooner rather than later.
I'm spending quite a bit of time scanning docs needed for disclosure, working on financial affidavit, etc. prior to retaining attorney so when I'm really ready, I will be able to just hand everything over. It's my process.
H is an idiot.
I wonder if idiots can find happiness.
I have GAL plans now, so gotta go.
Life is still good.
Grace
Hello Grace
You are correct. Each of you has your own path / process to walk.
Glad you found a lawyer you like and feel comfortable with. Looks like you have a good handle on the practicalities of this. And you’re walking a good path, just in case you’re wondering. (((Grace)))
Idiot is a bit derogatory, and your usage is understandable. Foolish is a more accurate term I think. As in - Your H is a fool for throwing away a gal like you.
Of the two, I think either could find happiness. However, the idiot has a better chance of keeping it, they are just dim-witted. A fool on the other hand acts imprudently; behaviours that increase the chance of losing their happiness. Kind of like what H is doing right now.
I think fool is a better descriptor for H. Your mind is listening, and beliefs are being altered. These little things all add up.
Take care
DnJ
Gerda – I appreciate you checking in and sending love. It means a lot to me, and gives me comfort knowing I have someone thinking about me.
DnJ,
Your post prompted me to look up the definition of “idiot” and “foolish”. You are correct. Foolish is a more accurate descriptor. But, idiot gives me more pleasure to say out loud.
Of the two, I think either could find happiness. However, the idiot has a better chance of keeping it, they are just dim-witted. A fool on the other hand acts imprudently; behaviors that increase the chance of losing their happiness. Kind of like what H is doing right now.
Boy, is this accurate. Every decision H is making is making him fall further and further into the abyss. He said to me yesterday that not only is he clinically depressed, but it’s so much more. When prompted, he stated he thinks he is going crazy. I believe he could be, and I believe he feels like he is going crazy, probably every single day. This statement was at the end of a 40 minutes phone conversation yesterday. We were starting discussions of a settlement agreement.
When I broached the subject of preparing a more formal separation agreement, he stated he wanted to keep it amicable and keep the lawyers out of it. He asked if I retained an attorney (I truthfully told him no), and he said he would be “forced” to do so as well and it would be costly. He wants to mediate. I told him I am willing to work with him amicably, so I sent him my “wish list”. He sent me several messages saying I didn’t know what I was talking about, had no idea about how to calculate alimony, etc. He had the nerve to say that he knows, because OW has been through it and she gets $x,xxx. Keep in mind she is not divorced, and there is no legal separation in my state. The sum was almost 3xs lower than all the alimony calculators say is a starting base. He’s clueless.
Anyway, I told him I could care less about what OW gets. It’s irrelevant. Part of the problem is he refuses to meet with me. He shared with me that he didn’t think he could take it. I believe that. He can’t face the results of his choices. We did talk on the phone as I stated, and I was so proud of myself. Every other minute or so, he became agitated, a bit aggressive, even angry, but I remained calm, cool, and collected the whole time. He told me he was angry all the time, at even at work, and he was so made the other day he threw his phone down and smashed it. I wonder if OW is living in bliss?
He thought my first proposal was ridiculous, and wanted me to admit it. I just kept saying that I wouldn’t go back there because that was just the start of negotiations as we had to start somewhere, and he can now offer me a counter proposal. I will see how it unfolds as I’m just glad the process is starting and he now understands I AM getting a divorce.
I have an attorney picked out and ready to go, and am continuing scanning 3 months worth of statements, documents, etc. I won’t work with H without attorneys for long, and I am clear headed and vigilant. I told him I don’t want this dragged out, and we need to keep it moving.
I will be ready, even though H very well might not be in any way.
He still doesn’t understand why I had to tell the kids about OW. I did say that they should know you have moved on and the truth, and that some day you might have them meet her. He said that he told OW that she will probably never meet the kids. Again, makes me wonder if she is living in bliss with a man obviously not proud of his choice. Not my problem.
Good night last night with friends in my home. D20 is home for the long weekend. She is better.
I don’t know if I would use the word bliss for my life. Joyful, happy, fulfilling. They are better choices for me.
Life is good.
Grace
Hello Grace
...idiot gives me more pleasure to say out loud.
LOL!
Most definitely.
I found my XW, and most MLCers I presume, are emotionally child-like, stunted. However, they can at times be deviously clever and manipulative. They are immature in emotional intelligence and empathy; yet still possess adult intellect and calculated reason, which does surface every now and then. Something not to be overlooked. Thinking they’re dumber than they are could lead to problems when negotiating. An MLCer will coldly and calculatingly go after whatever they desire, with very little regard for anyone. They are broken, their emotions on full, their empathy unable to function.
Your H is telling the truth, he does feel like he is going crazy. He will do all manner of things to “try” to fix the confusion and pain. All will fail. His, is a life of trouble and depression until he looks inward.
My XW also stated she felt she was going crazy. She also wanted, and pushed through, an amicable divorce. She unraveled very fast, and I figure if things had drag out she probably would have gone for more, either from her own desires or prompting from OM. My advice, once started get this done quickly if possible.
You’ve waited and let him do the heavy lifting for as long as possible and now need protection and security. It is your time to act.
You should be proud of yourself for how you behaved conversing with him. Well done! He was certainly trying to get you pulled in. (Oh I love to see examples of trying vs doing).
Anyway, I told him I could care less about what OW gets. It’s irrelevant.
That was wonderful.
The whole conversation sounded very cool-headed. You are a force, and have reclaimed your self esteem. No walking on eggshells anymore. Polite and to the point, no blaming, no judging - really excellent. Continue to not blow up at him. Blasting him will not serve your goals here or future, and will drive him nuts.
And yeah, he is clueless about alimony - wow 3 times lower, boy is he going to get a shock.
I agree with your thoughts about describing life. A blissful life is a fantasy, life is hard and takes work. There are certainly moments of bliss. Joyful, happy, fulfilling - yep much more accurate.
Keep walking your path and guiding your kids. Glad to hear D20 is doing better.
You’ve come a long way and are one heck of a good role model - for kids and here.
DnJ
Thought I’d stop by for a bit of an update. Things are happening, that’s for sure:
So I had some questions about H’s proposal. He of course had to remind me what a ridiculous, insulting offer my first one was, and how generous he is with his. It’s so funny he can’t understand I see right through his sugar coating, twisting, and lying. It’s pretty ridiculous. He believes he is in control, and doesn’t realize that I am the one in control. I’ll let him believe it.
I brought up that his proposal kept me and the kids on his insurance, but this can’t be so since I have to get my own after we divorce. I told him I appreciated his offer to keep the kids on. He responded that it’s just as expensive to have him and the kids and me as it is just him and the kids, and didn’t understand why I would want a ‘quick’ divorce. Really? Over insurance? Well, that’s why his girlfriend remains married, so I guess it must be a good reason. HaHa. Anyway, told him that he chose to buy a place with another woman and start a life with her, and I already told him I didn’t sign up for an open marriage. I really don’t think he believed I would D and take away his plan B. He said that if he has other expenses like health insurance, the kids car insurance, etc, he needs to rethink his offer, saying “sorry. This needs to be fair to me too”. He’s balking at paying car insurance, cell phone etc. even though we set a precedent when they went to college to do so until they graduate. He says he loves me and the kids and wants to take care of us. Really? Doesn’t sound like it. Me I can understand. But his own kids?
It just rolls off my back now. My communications with him are only business-like. I don’t let him draw me in. I think he’s surprised.
I never agreed to anything he wrote in his “generous offer”, just went back with questions for “clarity”. Haven’t heard back. He’s on a trip with his girlfriend now to introduce her to his birth mother. I only know because they tried to sign into Netflix and the location showed up. So, he’s busy now, and probably just avoiding the inevitable. I don’t think he really thought I would divorce him.
D20 still blocks her dad from phone and FB. But, H had S22 ask me for her e-mail address. I gave it to him without thinking. Well, yep. You guessed it. He sent a very long e-mail to D20. She called me at work crying her eyes out. It was full of excuses, half-truths, and a few lies. She saw right through it, and said it’s just excuses and no accountability or apology. I don’t think she plans to respond. Of course I had to leave work for the day and pick up the pieces. I fear H might be the cause of a nervous breakdown. Makes me so made how clueless and selfish he is. I discussed with D20 about me filing for D (I haven’t yet, but it’s coming). She said “Good. The sooner the better”.
Friday I retained an attorney, and submitted the first draft of my financial affidavit. I’m going to work out with her a fair and equitable settlement to present to H based on the attorney’s advise (we will discuss next week). I don’t think H sees it coming. I don’t really care.
If he just spews more anger, threats, and accuses me of not being fair, etc, I’ll just turn it completely over to the attorney. Enough is enough. I don’t want this to drag on. I want to be divorced before Thanksgiving, but preferably next month.
I continue to have a very full, content, and mostly happy life. I have joy and peace. Lots of activities, getting together with friends, and a trip almost every month planned through February!
Life is good.
Grace
Thought I’d pop in for a short update.
Have mostly good days filled with friends, activities, peace and joy. Anxiousness creeps in here and there, but doesn’t consume me any more.
I believe H is feeling cornered. He's angry in his communications with me. My attempts at opening negotiations for a settlement are responded by him with attacks on my character, accusations that I’m trying to ruin him, and other such things. I have not taken the bait. My responses are measured, level headed, and calm. I reminded him that these are negotiations, and a response with a well thought out counter proposal would be more productive than telling me I’m ridiculous and his original proposal was more than generous. He never responded (I’m not surprised).
I have been very up front with him, and he has not been with me. He is taking the rest of the cash on hand from our trust (his 50%), stating that “since I forced him to get an attorney, he had no choice as he has no savings to pay the retainer”. I plan to just move “my share” into an account with my name only. He is not thinking about all the tax implications.
He’s not thinking rationally at all, I don’t believe.
I told him I would wait for him to get an attorney so I can serve him the papers there rather than at his home. He is meeting with one this week. Maybe he will be more reasonable once he gets some legal advice. Maybe he will get a shady one that says they can take me to the cleaners. Who knows? I wrote to H that mine was very up front about my rights, and up front in informing me what I can reasonably expect without promising me the moon. I said I hoped he would do the same, as I want it only to be fair, and stay out of court as he does.
I have another phone convo set up with my attorney tomorrow to see how we can move this along. I was hoping we could negotiate most of it prior to mediation, but it doesn’t seem likely. I want to file and get it over with.
I have a life to live without all this interfering.
I turn 56 on Saturday. I have a jam packed weekend planned starting Friday night with a 4 course, high end wine dinner. Lunch Saturday with a friend, out to hear a few bands with friends Saturday night, and Sunday I travel to spend the day with the kids. Next weekend a short cruise with a GF.
My life is full. I am happy, and refuse to let the D process interfere with that happiness.
I am committed to remain calm, kind, compassionate, and level-headed in all my interactions with H.
God is holding my hand walking by my side, and I know he will keep me on the path he has chosen for me.
Life is good.
Grace
Grace
This kind of stuff seems normal for the MLCer
They get angry during D process and blame us for taking care of our needs
They are only concerned with themselves- so I would continue as you are
Very cordial and considerate.....but seeing an end and sticking to your legal rights--
They get upset when the reality hits---and how much they have to give up financially
MY XH gave everything up...in the end-
they get tired of negotiating and mine got worse during the D process
more drugs/high blood pressure and drinking escalated- weight gain or loss
and the pressure from the OW if there is one..
Im happy for you that you have adjusted so well and have created a fun life
enjoying whats to come!
Grace, we don't know each other well but our timelines are similar and so I've found myself following your sitch. In some ways we seam to have been following a similar emotional path throughout. I admire your level-headedness throughout these recent "conversations", and how you are sticking to your belief of being cordial, fair, and distant.
I'm afraid you will encounter additional rage, but I know you'll handle it beautifully.
Hello Grace
Happy Birthday! In three days.
I am sorry things with H have come to this. And I am not, because you are doing so very well. I think one has to live this to appreciate the duality of it. The bad and the good.
Your D sees her Dad’s true colours; evident from her comments of proceeding with divorce. She’ll follow your lead and do fine. Keep that levelheaded outlook, and cordial approach; it’s inspiring.
Walking a really good path Grace.
DnJ
I echo what everyone else says Grace. You can hold your head up high and be proud of how you have conducted yourself throughout this situation. Your H cannot say the same. Sounds like you have some great plans coming up. Good for you for living your life the best way you know how and I hope you have a fantastic birthday!!! (((HUGS)))
Funny how things can change at a moments notice. H said he saw 2 attorneys that advised him that people don't go to court over just alimony (no kidding). He gave me all kinds of advice and reasons why he wants to do this without attorneys, fairly, and amicably (I already know the reasons, and have said this, but he now feels compelled to instruct me). He tried to tug at my heart strings as he states this is not easy for him, and he wants to be left with some dignity. Yada yada yada. It's almost laughable if it wasn't so sad. I didn't bite. I guess the attorneys must have said my offer wasn't so outrageous after all, and maybe even told him that if we did fight over it, I would probably win.
So, back to square one. I have a scenario writtten out two different ways that gives me virtually the same amount of alimony. I am providing it to him hoping that seeing the numbers will show him I'm not crazy. I will provide a long explanation. I'm not holding my breath he will be agreeable, but I think my clear reasoning can't be argued with (by rational people, that is). We'll see.
I might send it to him right before his gig tonight. Shake him up a bit.
Uh oh. My mean streak is making an appearance.
The journey continues.
Grace
I would venture to say that he didn't like what the 2 lawyers had to say and is making up some excuse not to go to court. In fact, if you went to court, he might have to give you even more in the way of $$$. Funny how they always have some excuse for not using lawyers and wanting to go to court.
Poor baby. He should have thought about his dignity when he walked out the door. I'm glad you aren't drinking his kool aid.
Do what you need to do to take care of you because he's not thinking about you one iota...he is only think of himself and his wallet.
Well done Grace.
As job said, you’re not drinking his kool aid.
It’s a business deal gone sideways. Keep to your path, and follow those hard earned values and beliefs.
I did chuckle at your mean streak.
Your doing really good. Quite a pillar of strength.
DnJ
Thought I'd pop in and give a brief update before I'm off to the next activity. Bible Study tonight. My friend arrives tomorrow night and Friday morning we leave on a weekend get-away cruise. My life is not only busy, but full!
H is still playing it nice for the most part. We agreed on an alimony that was close to the number I had in my mind at the start of the process. I would have liked a tad more, but felt I needed to pick my battles wisely. God is certainly watching out for me. We are tweaking some things, but all in all, everything is going well. After all is said and done, I will own the house (no mortgage) with all contents in tact. That was huge for me. I'm glad he didn't fight it after his initial hissy fit and threats. He has thrown a few snarky comments my way, but they aren't too bad and I call him out on it when they happen. I won't tolerate it. So unproductive to the process. Well, in spite of things going well, I still have my guard up at all times. One can't be too cautious during this process!
I still don't think H has retained an attorney. I asked him, and he just didn't respond. Oh well. I don't really care I guess. My attorney says it's very reasonable to assume I will be D before the Holidays. I'm hoping early November.
I think H's health is suffering. I have compassion for him about it, but I'm sure his girlfriend can take good care of him. (was that sarcasm?). My care-taking days have ended (at least where he is concerned). Those skills are now serving a good purpose, and that makes me happy.
So much of my time has been consumed with figuring out strategy, getting e-mails to H just right, and researching things related to the D. I've barely had time to breath, let alone follow-along everyone's sitch.
However, I think of all my friends here often, and value all the advise and support you have given me. When I have time to breath, I will be back more regularly. Hugs all around.
Life truly is good!
Grace
Journaling…
Home sick today. Good day to catch up.
The D process is going a bit slower than I would like. We have agreed on the basics, but H is dragging his feet on confirming it, and “may have a few other things”. We still have a few more things to negotiate, but I won’t wait to file the paperwork much longer. I want to be divorced before Thanksgiving. He did pony up the agreed alimony on Oct 1. That’s something anyway.
I don’t think H realizes that when the D is final, that’s it. No come and go, sharing items from the house, or storing his stuff here. I’m writing in the D settlement that he has 30 days to retrieve his personal belongings after the D, then it becomes my property. He has a lot of stuff. A lot. He will have to get storage. I’m sure he doesn’t want to pay for that, and that’s why he’s been dragging his feet. Today I asked him if he planned to keep the drill (it’s a really good cordless one) as I need it for some projects. His response: “I have no problem sharing things. If you need it I can drop it off but at some point I want it back”. I told him he can keep it as I can get another one.
Continue to share things? Really? Another way to try to keep me Plan B? No thank you.
I’ve been really getting rid of things. Clearing out the garage. I’m looking at all the stuff we have accumulated with new eyes. H collected so many chemicals, oil, nuts, bolts, etc. All going. Selling a bunch of stuff too. It feels good. I’ve put a lot of H’s stuff on a few big shelves so he can just take it. A closet is crammed with photos and his books. That feels good too. It will feel very good when he gets it out of soon-to-be MY house.
It blows my mind how H is so blind to his role in his poor relationship with his kids. He sent me this very long e-mail about it, after I responded to a comment he made. He actually said in an e-mail (as he refuses to speak with me on the phone or see me because it’s “too difficult”).
“You might remind D20 that I’m still forking over a lot of money for her expenses. She might be a bit more charitable in her dealings with me. She has refused to reply to me for about 6 weeks now. I know she’s not happy with the situation between us, but I feel like I’m being fully blamed here. If she’s trying to punish me, she’s doing a good job of it and I’m not happy about it when I still keep sharing her expenses. I’m still her father”.
That just blew my mind. We had a few very long e-mail exchanges on the topic of the kids. He was all blame, blame, blame. He says that I must have insinuated things for them to think it’s all his fault, etc.
I responded with a very long e-mail back. Haven’t heard back. He knows I’m right.
H doesn’t know this yet, but my attorney is drawing up the paperwork with the items I believe we have agreed on. When the last big item is settled (life ins), the paperwork will be filed.
I wonder if H will be surprised I actually did it.
I don’t really care.
I’m ready .
Grace
H is trying to play on my heartstrings. I’m trying not to let him.
I asked him to respond to an email I sent 9 days about about confirming what we have agreed to so far, and informing him that I have had the attorney start the paperwork. He didn’t understand what the rush was, that I am getting my alimony already as we agreed, and if I had someone to date, then go ahead and do that, but he will not be rushed about such a big decision. That it needs to be done thoughtfully and fairly not just ram something through to get it over with. Of course I’m not not doing that, but I don’t want him dragging it out.
He also shared that he dreamed about me “again” last night. Happens a lot he says. That he cares if I’m sick, whether the kids have problems. That he still cares about all of us. He also said he reached out to a couple’s friend of our’s whom he has never once seen since we split up. I still see them. He reached out to them to “talk to him about it”. That he needed at least one of his old friends to help him out with all he’s going through. What the heck? Why now? Buyer’s remorse, I guess. It’s interesting that he chose “friends” that really aren’t “friends”. He’s really hurting for friends if he chose them. Wow. He said he told me because didn’t want me blindsided.
Anyway, I need to stay strong, stay he course, and continue to move forward. He definitely knows how to get at me, and I can’t let him. After all, he still is living in a home he bought with another woman. He doesn’t know me at all if he thinks nothing matters but an alimony payment.
I don't like that I am obviously still attached, although it's now with a string and not a rope, and I feel deep down he will someday be redeemed and healed.
But, I'm not the one to do it.
I need a few 2x4s to stay the course!
Grace
Grace, I'm not sure he is tugging at your heartstrings, I think he is doing exactly what DB predicts he will. He feels that he is losing you. He feels that you are moving on from him. Therefore, he is trying to engage you in the toxic pursuer-distancer dance. Regardless of whether you harbor any desire to reconcile, I think that he feels you going. Let him keep feeling it (it really is the recipe either way). While he is still ok with you dating, or thinks he is, he is nowhere near the end of his crisis. Having experienced this kind of thing for many years (let's get this done now, then the second I indicate a willingness to do so, runaway again), I would caution against spending a lot on lawyer fees negotiating with him. Either let him control the pace (if it suits you, and without spending money on it), or you take control and drive it to conclusion (if that is what you want). But trying to reason with someone in a crisis doesn't work. They don't know what they want, they hate making decisions, and they hate permanence.
OwnIt.
After considering the exchanges with H today, and your comments, I see how you are right on. He really doesn't know what he wants. He's desperately trying to keep some of the old life afloat, albeit just barely, while not willing to fully move forward. It was so evident in the exchanges today. I've dreamed about you, care about you the kids and even th cat, what's the rush, then play hardball on the negotiations. So back and forth, all within a few hours. I am really curious about what his purpose is to contact these friends after so long. Part of that grasping for the old life, maybe. Maybe trying to get sympathy.
Anyway, I appreciate the fresh perspective.
I wouldn't read into the friends thing. My H, who I call OD, hated his family. Never had anything to do with them. From the second he left here, it is all about that family for him. They need someone. They know they are a mess. They are afraid to be alone because that is when the demons come. They need someone to tell them they did the right thing and their feelings are justified. Even those friends figure out in time they are FOS.
My advice--in every moment, do what feels the right thing for you and your kids. Try to let go of what he wants, or the whys (but I admit it is fun to borrow Andrew's turban and mind-read--I do it all the time). Don't start thinking that the friend thing is a reconnection thing or this attention means he's coming back soon. He isn't. If he ever does, it is years away. Live your best life between now and then. You may find something better yourself in the meantime, and even if you don't you'll be more attractive him when he gets his you-know-what together. Assume everything is just a touch-and-go and about their fears until you wake up one day with definitive proof to the contrary.
If I'm not mistaken, yours is the one who moved out temporarily for only a month or three or whatever, and has now bought a house with a mistress you didn't know about. Sounds a lot like my H. Terrified to let go, complete coward. Hoping all the time someone else will do the dirty work. What he wants is going to change a million times between now and the end, so be guided by what you want.
Good Morning Grace
OwnIt is spot on with her sage advice and experienced perspective.
MLCers and friends is a funny business. In as much as their affair is built upon sand, their new friendships are even more unstable. It’s a using each other arrangement. MLCers are emotional broken, and are attracted to, and attract, similar people. They aren’t friends, not in the way we consider friends. MLCer are incapable of deep meaningful relationship. Kind of like kids and friendships, fun times and not very deep.
My XW turned her back on everyone and found a whole batch of new “friends”; imports from OM’s life. She vehemently told me that these were her true friends! She threw away friendships and family of over 30 years. It does make sense. She was dead to her life, and in the new she felt something. Problem is, MLCers are building upon shaky and unstable ground.
I would like to alter one thing of Own’s post - “do what feels the right thing for you and your kids.”
Believe not feel.
Ensure your beliefs, and follow your beliefs, even when they feel wrong, counterintuitive and all that. I am sure that is the spirit and intent.
I don't like that I am obviously still attached, although it's now with a string and not a rope, and I feel deep down he will someday be redeemed and healed.
But, I'm not the one to do it.
I need a few 2x4s to stay the course!
Do you believe deep down that he will someday be redeemed and healed?
Does that matter to your path?
Yes your feelings were stir up by H and his recent tug upon your heartstrings. He doesn’t stir your beliefs, look to them.
Do you believe in your course?
I believe I know you well enough to predict that answer.
Stay the course.
DnJ
H is on my mind a lot these days. Probably because of the recent e-mail exchanges. Or, maybe it’s just part of the ebb and flow of letting go. Or maybe because I’ve been home along a lot because I’ve been sick all week. Lots of time for thinking. I guess the reason probably doesn’t really matter.
I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings. I have several good friends, more than a few that I would call close. I have a full, active life. I don’t have to worry about money, or feeding myself or my kids. D20 is doing better. I have a lot to be thankful for, and I AM thankful for it. Maybe I’m just in the final stages of mourning a marriage I wish I had, with someone committed to me, who appreciates my qualities and wants to make me happy rather than always taking and blaming. Mourning the person I wish H was.
I realize I still don’t want to be divorced. But it doesn’t change my course. That is exactly what I believe has to happen now. For me, for my kids, maybe even for H. It will allow me to continue to fine tune who I really am without all the focus on trying to fix someone (H), and something (my M). I just need to guard against trying to find someone else to fix (except my patients, of course).
Do you believe deep down that he will someday be redeemed and healed?
Does that matter to your path?
Good question. I think it’s possible if I saw a glimpse of the pursuit of healing and redemption, it might have an impact on my path. I realize it is because it speaks to my calling to help people. If only he would show he is willing to change, I want to be there to help him do it! Of course that doesn’t work. So, in reality it should not matter at all to my path. In fact it would only put up a blockade.
Yes your feelings were stir up by H and his recent tug upon your heartstrings. He doesn’t stir your beliefs, look to them.
Do you believe in your course?
I believe I know you well enough to predict that answer.
Stay the course.
Dn
I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course. I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.
So, no. My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.
It’s just going to hold me back.
Grace
Grace, I could have word-for-word written what you did just now. It is EXACTLY where I'm at as well. I hear you, and fully understand your emotions. Not wanting a divorce that you are completely onboard with is a strange thing to explain.
In part I wonder if it is because we are very roughly about 1 year since the physical separation part of this process. The time period when we started to gain space with ourselves, and see things objectively. Just a thought.
This past year has brought so many unexpected joys in a path I never saw for myself. I think you have the same. Just imagine - where might we be in another year?
One year ago I never thought I'd be here without W. Not in a million years. So I guess I have to fully expect that one year from now will be something else I could never have foreseen.
I too have W on my mind a lot these days. I'm trying to accept that and let her image take up some room in my mind, because I think it must be part of my healing/letting go process. No more pushing it out and pretending it doesn't exist. What do you do? I know you still have contact sometimes, so I'm curious how you approach it when H creeps into your mind.
H is on my mind a lot these days. Probably because of the recent e-mail exchanges. Or, maybe it’s just part of the ebb and flow of letting go. Or maybe because I’ve been home along a lot because I’ve been sick all week. Lots of time for thinking. I guess the reason probably doesn’t really matter.
I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings.
((((Grace))))))
This is kind of what I was alluding to in my last post to you. I have gotten the feeling from your posts of late that you are determined to fix your broken heart your way, by divorcing and having a clean break. I don't think this is possible either from a secular perspective or a faith-based perspective. Divorce may be a necessary evil for you because of financial considerations; I'm in the same boat. But it has nothing to do with your heart or God's plan for marriage. It is not going to fix anything or heal you. Only God and time can do that. The feelings of heartbreak are going to persist. Some people on this board allow healing via secular means; some people lay it at God's feet. I feel like you are straddling both fences, and I do too. But you can't think that just because you are divorcing, you are going to fix anything or keep wondering at the fact that you are not fixed yet! To my mind, you just started your journey!
And if God has a plan to restore your marriage, the divorce may be part of that plan, it may be a step on that road.
The trouble is what to do with your heart and your plans in the meantime. It's messy and uncomfortable to not know. Believe me, that is my struggle too, I am sure you have seen that anguish in my posts.
I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course. I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.
It is not a problem. And the answer is because you never chose to give up your role as your wife and your heart can remember the one flesh and feel it ripping.
So, no. My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.
It’s just going to hold me back.
Maybe the way forward is to move forward into joy even with part of you wanting H to come back and believing in the impossible, post-divorce. Maybe it's with H and maybe not, or maybe it's without H for years and then with him later. It might be messier than you want, keeping your heart as a fleshy heart. It might mean sitting with the complexity in a way that is more painful than a clean break. It's a radical trusting of God and one that I am obviously not able to do when I post myself, but I work on it in between. I see plenty of posters on here who think they made a clean break but still struggle with the pain. It's just a fact of our lives, I think. We can live with joy and GAL and friends and family but it's okay to have a corner of the heart that will mourn at times. Only the MLCer can pretend otherwise, and look at the fallout of that ability!
I think you do yourself a disservice wondering why you feel conflicted or thinking it's weak to want your H with you for the rest of your life's journey. That's what you signed up for. (And how do you know it's not the promptings of the Holy Spirit?) Just because H tried to sign off on what you both signed up for, that doesn't mean you can just get rid of the feeling. That's what MLC did for him; do you really want that? The pain of letting yourself feel it is the the worst, but that's the cross! Don't try to leave the cross on the side of the road with your determination to divorce! Pick up the pain and pick up the divorce, they ARE the cross!
Good Morning Grace
I’m feeling a little sorry for myself and I don’t know why I would have these feelings. I have several good friends, more than a few that I would call close. I have a full, active life. I don’t have to worry about money, or feeding myself or my kids. D20 is doing better. I have a lot to be thankful for, and I AM thankful for it. Maybe I’m just in the final stages of mourning a marriage I wish I had, with someone committed to me, who appreciates my qualities and wants to make me happy rather than always taking and blaming. Mourning the person I wish H was.
I realize I still don’t want to be divorced. But it doesn’t change my course. That is exactly what I believe has to happen now. For me, for my kids, maybe even for H. It will allow me to continue to fine tune who I really am without all the focus on trying to fix someone (H), and something (my M). I just need to guard against trying to find someone else to fix (except my patients, of course).
Yes, please keep fixing your patients.
That is well within your realm of control and affect.
I love your clarity of feel, thought, and belief. This ^^^ is another great example of it.
I know you don’t want this, and it feels bad and feels good - weird I know. It’s ok.
And like has been said many times, feelings are fleeting, do not make decisions based solely upon them; find and follow slow changing beliefs.
It’s your hard earned beliefs; the values of Grace that you found, strengthened, and lead your life with. Those provide such clarity, and a lighthouse must be clear to be seen. Beliefs are what is vital and so very important to you. The big things in life. The things you cannot and will not live without. And as odd as it is, a marriage isn’t a vital as one first thinks it is.
Marriage could end from a death. Grace would still have to go on. The reason for the ending is not all encompassing and important - what one does after - that is one of the big rocks to place. Once those big rocks, those values, are in place, let the small pebbles of life fill in the voids around them. If one does it the other way around all one has is pebbles and no important stuff - like our MLCer spouses have done to their lives.
From the other side of this divorce business I’ll pass some of my perspective. Divorce is what I just said - business. Treat it like that. Keep feelings out of it. The hard truth of the matter:
The marriage is dead, the spouse wants out, divorce or not makes no difference, proceed if needed, it’s just a business deal.
Regardless of if one is still married or not, if our spouse awakens, a whole new R needs to be created. The following speaks to that.
I’ve seen too much growth and change NOT to believe in my course.
Yes! You have far too much hard earned lessons and wisdom, far too much growth, to change your path. Your H, anyone’s spouse if they were to awaken, needs to catch up to you. Nothing short of that will do! You most certainly do not want to throw away everything or anything of what you have gained, for him or anyone. You are still the most important person in all this, never sell yourself short.
I think the real problem is I still in some small way want H to come along for the ride. And the question is why? After all he’s done.
Of course you want him to come along for the ride, even after all he has done.
Why?
Because you love him. Maybe even unconditionally.
Embrace that - it’s ok.
At first we cannot do that. Seriously - can’t. One needs to find detachment, and indifference. One needs too, to survive.
Then move forward, letting go, maybe a divorce, maybe not, whatever. Then continuing with empathy, compassion, kindness, and understanding, one finds forgiveness and realizes that they can and do love their wayward spouse
and that feeling, that thought, that belief, that choice - no longer hurts!
Why?
Because you chose to love him. And it is becoming unconditional.
This is just as counterintuitive as other new, and at first, strange feelings and thought along this path. Embrace this. Explore this.
Forgiveness is not condone. Forgiveness is love. Forgiveness is a belief. Forgiveness is a choice. It is for you.
My course won’t change. I believe in my course, my future, and all the good and joy it promises. I just have to find a way to let go of the string that keeps trying to drag H along.
It’s just going to hold me back.
Follow your beliefs. Look towards and find find all the joys, sorrows, and happiness your unknown future holds.
A final point of view (for now
).
Quit trying to let go that one or few strings still attached to H. I believe we are meant to have a couple remain tied to our spouse. Unconditional love and forgiveness needs something to grow upon.
Change how you see this string. Make a choice. Change your paradigm.
Stop
trying to cut the string. It is actually an unbreakable one.
The string is completely stretchable and transcends space and time.Therefore it
cannot hold you back.
This forgiveness, this unconditional love, this string, is so very sweet and free of pain.
The string cannot drag H along. However, it could be a guide for H if he ever chooses to follow it.
Be the lighthouse.
DnJ
Grace, it is still early days. I think only time and distance can bring healing. Its natural to mourn the loss of something/someone that mattered to you.
Stopping by real quick to say thanks to Yail, Gerda, DnJ and OwnIt for your insight and support. I will reply in more detail, but I have a lot on my plate right now. I'm finally getting better from a nasty cold that kept me out of the gym for over a week, off work for 2 days, and generally feeling crummy for too many days.
At the same time, my cat got very sick, no eating, lethargy, fever. They had to put a nose tube in for feeding. They don't know what happened. But, I asked them to give pain meds, and now he feels much better. They are thinking pancreatitis. He's home now, and eating, so that's something. I won't even tell you what the vet bill was. Yikes!
I'm also getting ready for an appraisal (H wanted it, but of course I have to organize it), responding to stupid e-mails from H (the jabs continue but do not hurt), and D20 is again a complete mess. I think she is very depressed on top of everything else. I don't know if she is in the right major at college, and I am exploring that as well as her taking off a semester. I will travel after work 2 hours on Wed just to have dinner and hug on her. She needs me.
God made me a strong person for moments like these. He is watching over me, and guiding me. I'm glad.
More later.
Grace
Another week has passed. My cat is on the mend, and I am finally too. So, time to check in and catch up on my friends here, and mull over my sitch, where I am, and where I’m going.
I too have W on my mind a lot these days. I'm trying to accept that and let her image take up some room in my mind, because I think it must be part of my healing/letting go process. No more pushing it out and pretending it doesn't exist. What do you do? I know you still have contact sometimes, so I'm curious how you approach it when H creeps into your mind.
H has not dominated my thoughts this week. Interesting how it ebbs and flows, becomes all consuming, then fleeting. I’m really not sure how to answer this question, but I do give it up to prayer a lot. It also helps to be proactive in moving the D process along, and clearing out some of H’s stuff. But ultimately, I just let time and getting on with life dull the thoughts. Like you, Yail, I am learning not to fight it. It’s helping.
have gotten the feeling from your posts of late that you are determined to fix your broken heart your way, by divorcing and having a clean break.
I do not think a D will fix my broken heart. My heart is already healing. The D is a clear statement to my H that I will not tolerate such disrespect, and the result of his decision to share his life with someone else is to give up his life with me. In no way do I see D as a clean break. The process is slow, and started way before H even moved out.
And if God has a plan to restore your marriage, the divorce may be part of that plan, it may be a step on that road.
THIS really spoke to me. I do in fact believe my journey with H is not over after D. I feel God is prompting me not to give up on H because HE hasn’t. Whether God will ever bring us back together as partners is unknown. It doesn’t matter to me right now. But I do believe D is the right choice, and I will just live my life and hopefully be able to hear God’s instructions and be able to obey his promptings, no matter where it leads me.
We can live with joy and GAL and friends and family but it's okay to have a corner of the heart that will mourn at times. Only the MLCer can pretend otherwise, and look at the fallout of that ability!
I think you do yourself a disservice wondering why you feel conflicted or thinking it's weak to want your H with you for the rest of your life's journey. That's what you signed up for. (And how do you know it's not the promptings of the Holy Spirit?) Just because H tried to sign off on what you both signed up for, that doesn't mean you can just get rid of the feeling. That's what MLC did for him; do you really want that? The pain of letting yourself feel it is the the worst, but that's the cross! Don't try to leave the cross on the side of the road with your determination to divorce! Pick up the pain and pick up the divorce, they ARE the cross !
I don’t think I recognized the part of my heart still with H as o.k., normal, and even a healthy part of my journey. I fight it, telling myself there must be something wrong with me to have a part of me still want to be with this man. I am at a Christian woman’s retreat now, and whether some of what I’m thinking and feeling is in part the promptings of the holy spirit has come up a few times. I do believe God is holding my hand and guiding me even with the choice to proceed with D. I have decided to pick up the pain and D cross again, because the burden is now light since I have help carrying it.
Marriage could end from a death. Grace would still have to go on. The reason for the ending is not all encompassing and important - what one does after - that is one of the big rocks to place. Once those big rocks, those values, are in place, let the small pebbles of life fill in the voids around them. If one does it the other way around all one has is pebbles and no important stuff - like our MLCer spouses have done to their lives.
How right you are DnJ, Grace still has to go on no matter the reason. I often think of my journey into my new future as something wonderful, joyful, and satisfying, but then I remember the D, and it brings me down a bit. But it doesn’t need to. That promise of something wonderful in store for me in the near and far future is still there. That should be is my focus.
From the other side of this divorce business I’ll pass some of my perspective. Divorce is what I just said - business. Treat it like that. Keep feelings out of it. The hard truth of the matter:
The marriage is dead, the spouse wants out, divorce or not makes no difference, proceed if needed, it’s just a business deal.
I am not convinced H really wants a D. I just don’t think he know how to find his way back. BUT, I am focused on the business deal, and I don’t think H likes it. He seems to want to draw out my compassionate side. He just wants his strokes he so desperately seems to need. He can get them from his girlfriend. I think I surprised him a bit by my negotiation skills, and keeping it business and not tolerating his jabs. I don’t think he knows what to do wit the new me. I don’t care.
Of course you want him to come along for the ride, even after all he has done.
Why?
Because you love him. Maybe even unconditionally.
Embrace that - it’s ok. .
I still struggle with why I love such a man. Untrustworthy, selfish, damaged, depressed, and unfaithful. That doesn’t sound like someone I should care about when I put it out there like that. But, it’s there anyway. I just won’t fight it anymore. It doesn’t change my course. Thanks for the validation, DnJ.
Quit trying to let go that one or few strings still attached to H. I believe we are meant to have a couple remain tied to our spouse. Unconditional love and forgiveness needs something to grow upon.
Change how you see this string. Make a choice. Change your paradigm.
Stop trying to cut the string. It is actually an unbreakable one.
The string is completely stretchable and transcends space and time.Therefore it cannot hold you back.
This forgiveness, this unconditional love, this string, is so very sweet and free of pain.
The string cannot drag H along. However, it could be a guide for H if he ever chooses to follow it.
Be the lighthouse.
Thank you for this. I think I was struggling with seeing D as the end, even though I have told many people recently that I don’t see D as an end of H and I. I don’t know why, or what that means. And I don’t think it will hold me back in the past any longer. It’s just there. And I believe God is prompting me to be the lighthouse. Not specifically for H, but for other people in need. I’m not sure exactly what this means yet, but I know someday it will become clear.
Journaling……
Negotiations are coming to a close soon. We are getting close. The home appraisal should be ready tomorrow, and we just have a few loose ends. I suspect when H gets the Settlement Agreement to review, he won’t like a few things in it, but I’ll cross that bridge when necessary. He didn’t seem to have any idea what a financial disclosure statement was, so obviously he doesn’t have an attorney. He said he was going to look for another one this week so they can review it with him before he gets it notaried. Whatever. It just better not hold up the D. I want it done before the end of the year. But at least it seems to be moving forward.
D20 is still struggling. We are now discussing her taking off a semester. She is not even sure she is in the right major. It’s hard to discern whether it’s depression affecting her interest, or she just finds it dull. Her real love is animals, and she is exploring becoming a vet tech. But, then she says she almost feels like a failure going after an associates degree and making a lot less money.
I reminded her that doing what we love makes us happy, not money. She likes to live very simply, so she gets it.
We did discover, however, that she has only one semester left to get her BS degree – 1 year early! I had no idea. She is coming home this weekend and we will chat more about the options then. But, I think she is leaning towards sticking it out for one more semester. She’ll graduate with her brother! Really surprised me she had so many credits! She has a therapist now that she says she likes and is connecting with, so that will help her navigate all she is going through. Our communication is open too, so I’m thankful for that. In any event, I think she needs mom right now, so we are also exploring her moving back home for a while to work and maybe start school for a vet tech.
Life is full of twists, turns, hills, and valleys.
I can’t wait to find out what is around the corner and over the hill in a place yet to discover.
Grace
My heart is breaking for my daughter. She will be home today for the weekend, but I received late night text messages last night. She was consumed with worry about a prescription that wasn’t ready to be picked up before she came home. Such seemingly small things are so overwhelming for her now.
Although I was in bed, my auto response that I was driving and will get back to her responded to her text. I don’t know why. She responded “why are you driving so late?”.
So, at 1:00 a.m., she called. She cried for over 30 minutes. She is just so overwhelmed. She was worried about the prescription, had to do laundry, clean, and grocery shop before she came home. We talked about listing priorities, and crossing things off the list, etc. We talked about it at length.
I then asked her why it upset her so much that I might be driving late? She said she was afraid I might be seeing someone. I asked her why that would be so upsetting. She said because she has not recovered from knowing her dad is having an affair. I told her I wasn’t dating, and had no intention of it because I was still married. I am thankful I can tell her this with all honesty. But I did tell her that it’s possible I may in the future. I don't want to hide reality from her. She said she understood this.
I used it as an opportunity to explore with her whether it’s time she starting dealing with her feelings about her father. I will talk to her more about it this weekend. I really believe it would be a load off her shoulders if she sent a not to her dad about her feelings about the whole situation (and a response to his long e-mail to her 2 months ago). I will not suggest anything, but just try to guide her on what she feels is the right thing to do. My heart is really breaking for her.
About a year ago, my H said that D would not be a big deal with the kids adults now because they will be getting on with their own lives. How self-centered, and blind is that? He's left me to deal with it all. God certainly made me strong for a reason. I'm just sorry this is the reason.
But, I’ll be glad to have both kids home this weekend.
Time to regroup.
Grace, you're a great mom. I work in higher ed and this is the time period when literally every student I encounter is overwhelmed and many are also fighting a cold/sickness along with all the other stressers. I witness this every year.
I do think fall semester has this unique time period of insane stress (and we're currently in it), and on top of everything else going on in her life your daughter is likely feeling this crunch time.
It's a tough time for us on campus too, just because we want to support every student in their needs. But parent support is so crucial.
Grace, I know it hurts to see your kids hurting. I've been through it with both of mine. It does get better as they cope with the changes. My daughter is about the same age and also in college. What I can tell you, is that she can verbalize these things and share her pain with you is a really great sign. She is reaching out and seeking help and understanding. So much better than the alternative.
Im sorry about your D
It is so hard to see them in pain..I also know first hand
I Like what Yail and Own said
I saw my D also get a bit stressed at college all of a sudden
Its a big shift to be away and all the responsibility
Im glad she shared with you
Sometimes thats is all they need , a loving ear, sometimes a good therapist is helpful
I dont think sharing her feelings with her dad is a good idea, at least not now-
I see the MLCer discountiing the feelings others may have because they dont think they did harm or refuse to face it
and any rejection from him may make it worse
A therapist may be a good guide
at this young age, she can learn to share her pain, deal with her grief..so she can move ahead
No one is pain free
I always found it helpful for my kids to come to me
I thank them for sharing their pain
I know its hard- to hear
but once shared...they seem ok
H and his cowardice is on my mind. I suppose it's because the kids are home for the weekend and it brings up raw emotions about his lack of interest in the kids. How do these MCLrs do it? Just give up a loving family in such a manner? I don't suppose I will ever understand it. Maybe (probably) it doesn't matter.
I dont think sharing her feelings with her dad is a good idea, at least not now-
I see the MLCer discountiing the feelings others may have because they don’t think they did harm or refuse to face it and any rejection from him may make it worse. A therapist may be a good guide at this young age, she can learn to share her pain, deal with her grief so she can move ahead
No one is pain free
I’ve given this a lot of thought. Perhaps my old self is coming out in that I am trying to control events (in this case the relationship between my kids and H). I think you hit the nail on the head. H doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. D20 just wants him to admit his actions (and maybe apologize?), instead of just makings excuses and giving lame reasons why he did what he did. I don’t think this will happen any time soon, if ever. I will leave it alone for now. D20 is in therapy. She has had 3 or 4 sessions, and is trying to go weekly. She says she is connecting with him. I’m glad.
S22 said he stopped communicating with his dad. He said he is considering sending him a note that H can maybe contact him after the New Year. He said his dad never initiated contact with him, so he stopped. So sad! We talked a bit about his college graduation coming up this spring. He said he’s not sure he even wants his dad there. Wow.
Went to a Halloween party last night. It brought up old wounds. Halloween was always a very big deal for H and I. Our home is well know for decorations. H really did a good job. Anyway, a Halloween party 2 years ago was on my mind. We invited, and went with, OW, her H and friends. They were in a full blown affair at the time. Looking back, I see the signs in how they interacted. A few months later I found out. All the old hurts came back. I’m trying to once again let them go. I’m not even handing out candy this year, much less decorating. I sold most of our decorations (made some nice money, too!). I have plans with a friend for dinner. I just can’t face all the questions about why H isn’t decorating this year.
I feel like I’m regressing a bit in dealing with all of this. I don’t want to be consumed with thoughts of what was, what H isn’t, the choices he’s made, and visions of H with OW (usually having fun, laughing, or even having sex). I hate it.
Maybe my problem is when they come, I fight them, so they never really leave. I need to let them come, and pass perhaps.
Easier said then done.
I realize these emotions will fade. Probably never go away, but fade and hurt a lot less. I think how far I’ve come in a year. Quite a long distance.
More time. That’s probably all I need now.
Right now, though, it’s time to love on my kids and get on with my day.
Grace.
Good Morning Grace
I am sorry D20 and S22 are taking things hard. This is a difficult time and situation to get through.
My advice regarding D20. She should not share her feelings
with her Dad. However, she should, and needs, to share her feelings
about her Dad. Not with him necessarily, although that will have benefit for her.
From experience, the MLC parent gave up their kids, my four kids and their mom for example. The MLCer cannot handle their own emotions, never mind anyone else’s. H will be unable to hear or help with D20’s feelings. This is an important clarification - her feelings, things she is working her way through. You obviously care and can listen and help, and can see how ineffective H would be.
D20’s feelings regarding her Dad can be told to him. She can, and might need to get stuff off her chest. It is a similar path we all had to walk as well. I do believe giving their Dad space and time is valuable for our kids also. Blasting him might feel good for a short while, but not for long term. I’d encourage a better path for your kids.
Encourage her to share her feelings with you, therapist, whomever - but not Dad. Conversations with MLCers is more just telling them, and expecting nothing in return. That was hard to learn, wasn’t it? Teach you children that. Keep expectation to zero. Accept who and where Dad is for now.
Unmet expectations lead to resentment.
Dad has changed. Your children need to find acceptance of that, which takes time and is a convoluted path. Be their guide. From what I’ve learned, most people do not understand what we or our kids are going through. One really does need to live this to have insight.
I feel like I’m regressing a bit in dealing with all of this. I don’t want to be consumed with thoughts of what was, what H isn’t, the choices he’s made, and visions of H with OW (usually having fun, laughing, or even having sex). I hate it.
Those regressive feelings are just that - feelings. I assure you, this is forward progress.
I also had those thoughts of what was, what’s been lost, and those icky visions of spouse and affair partner playing house and having sex. And I hated it too.
In truth I still have those thoughts, I am right now as I need too since I’m writing to you about them. The thoughts very seldom ever just spring up anymore. They no longer consume or hurt. In fact after this post, I’m heading outside to shovel some of my scrapped off gravel back on to my road; before I’d been consumed and sad.
In dealing with your feelings about these icky thoughts, you are finding acceptance. That is forward.
After accepting, and compassion, and empathy, look to forgiving. Both for you and that goof of a husband that threw away such a good loving woman.
I found forgiving me was the harder of the two. It’s expected (haha expectations) I suppose, we all hold ourselves to higher standards and expectations (again hmmm something going on here). And that is the deep seed to find - our unmet expectations and our resentments of that. Be kind to yourself - you deserve it, and are worth it.
You are correct about fighting your feelings. We can’t beat them. Accept them. Stop feeding them and they wither. Time is a gift and you are using it very well.
The intensity of ones feelings and emotions does fade over time. I place feeling as a temporary thing.
Emotions are deeper, primal, and tied to beliefs. Emotions do not burn as bright as feelings, they are more embers, and as such they do not flicker out quickly; they are part of what makes a belief.
For the most part, beliefs are us, they define us. One’s beliefs are the basis for our lives, values, understandings, empathy, etc...
Good strong beliefs don’t hurt. They are uplifting, and their strength shines out. The thoughts and emotions from such a belief are wonderful to experience.
Beliefs are choices made over time. Eventually choices are belief over time. The appearance of choice seems removed as we live true to our inner convictions.
You are a good strong person. Make good strong beliefs. Someday you will look at what was and be happy for the time you had with H, and not for the time that was taken away. You will even find peace with his path.
Have faith. God has indeed made you strong. Keep using it well.
DnJ
The pain we feel about the OW and H lead us to acceptance
embrace the pain and allow it
trust it heals us and then passes
the thoughts are part of it, but I always found sharing thoughts/pain with a trusted person helpful
then distracting myself from the pain and practicing letting go-
getting busy, hobbies, gardening , petting animals, listening to uplifting speakers, reading
Now I can tell you.. I still think of XH from time to time, but I know he is miserable with OW,
and his life turned into a real mess.
so I can honestly say I regret nothing..I stood..I waited..I was kind and patient for almost 2 years
Im not sure my XH has no regrets-
but what I am saying is the thoughts and pain and feelings around your H an OW will fade and disappear and you will feel NO pain when thinking of him after time
same for my kids...they may feel something from time to time and they both have a therapist to talk to--
about dad leaving -but really they just adjusted
I hope they dont repeat it in their own lives..but God is in control
hang in
Grace - It’s all a normal part of the process. Time will heal you. So wise to look at how far you have come!
I had a live - in MLCer for 4 years. Know that someone who blows up their life in this fashion is truly broken. And they always choose a broken down OW; clearly the case here as they both were having affairs. It’s a pretty vulgar start to their “romance.” Nothing to envy there. They will work their issues out on each other and that’s why they were attracted.
Regarding Halloween and not wanting to be asked questions, that is understandable. We learn who our supporters are. I went to the first family wedding since my D and coming from a very Catholic family I was dreading it. But the person I was most worried about told me to hold my head high and feel no shame.
We begin slow by rebuilding some beautiful moments in all this chaos. Then suddenly we start to build beautiful days and then weeks. And somehow years later, we have build a beautiful life!!! Like Peace says, years later, the pain is gone. It takes time.
You are the prize. Hold your head up high and your shoulders straight!
Thanks to all for the sage advice and words of encouragement. I needed them! It helps validate that what I am going through is normal, and that other people truly understand. It helps, for sure.
H continues to have little hissy-fits and gives jabs almost regularly. But, things are still progressing. For example, today I asked him for his share of a few bills - cell phone, house appraisal, and a huge vet bill. He said he would be happy to pay for all except for the (huge) vet bill. He didn't see why he should since he "hasn't had access" to the cat for a year. I told him because it's the family pet, he states he cares for it still, we are still married, and it's the right thing to do. He ranted on about how I don't help him with medical bills, his car, etc. He also ranted (and has had several times before) how it isn't right that I "made a claim" on half of his inheritance. He loves to forget that we sat with attorney's about 9 years ago and they specifically told him it was inheritance and was he sure he wanted to put it in commingled money. He said yes, because I did so much for his parents (in truth, I did everything for his parents and willingly, because I loved them). Now I'm the bad guy "taking" the money. I ignored all of it. In the end, he said that "he's used to being fleeced . Fine you'll get your money deposited on Friday. Good enough for you?" I waited a while, and just responded "thanks".
Why do they waste so much energy on such silly accusations? It's almost funny.
Anyway, something I want to ask.
What do people do with all their old pictures, cards, love notes, etc. after D? I'm really going through closets, boxes, etc. and found so much of that kind of thing I've kept since we were married. Even found a small note that he sent with flowers 2 weeks after we met. *sigh* Made me a bit sad.
Grace
Grace,
You are handling your situation beautifully. They love to spit and sputter about things all of the time....hoping that you will say forget it. Keep him on the hook for the things he should be responsible for. The amount of time that they sputter about things, they could have written the check on transferred the funds to an account.
I kept all of the old pictures, but tossed out the cards, love notes, etc. I also kept my wedding gown. It's hanging in a closet in the guest room. Some day, I'll donate it. If you aren't sure about what to keep or what to toss out, box it up and revisit the box after the holiday season. You may even want to ask him if he wants things (if you don't want them yourself).
Yes, going through things of the past, will make you sad...but you had the best part of your h for a long time and had many fun times together.
Grace, I agree you should keep the mementos. If you're not sure, hang on to them a little longer. Just finding an "out of sight" location can be difficult, and I realize that.
I sent a few things to my parents house, and they are kind enough to hold on to them. My wedding album, my dress, a few photos. Smaller mementos are in a box that I have sealed, labeled, and set aside in a closet where they won't be damaged but I also don't have to see them. Do you have a dear friend or family member who would understand your need to not see them? The trouble then is liability - if anything happens to them while at another's home you can't really be angry.
TBH, I never offered my STBXW any of the mementos. She left without taking any or asking and so I consider myself the keeper of the good memories. I'm pretty angry at her currently for what she's done, but I insist on keeping the good memories from years ago. So I tie them up neatly, set them on a shelf, and refuse to have my current emotions tarnish them.
So the draft of the Marriage Settlement Agreement was sent to me today for review.
It's getting real.
And, I think I am o.k.
It's pretty straight forward, and outlines the items H and I discussed and (I think) agreed to. I glanced at it before going out tonight, but will give it a thorough read tomorrow. I'm hoping to have my attorney send it to H by tomorrow afternoon or Monday morning.
H sent a very random, odd e-mail yesterday. It said:
"Believe me, if I could undo all of this, I would. That's all I have to say." That was it.
Seems to me if he really wanted to undo it, he could take the steps to do so. He is just choosing not to.
Then today he sends a note that he doesn't feel he has to pay a bill I submitted to him.
He's all over the place. True MCL stuff, I guess.
It won't change the fact that he will soon have to deal with the reality we are divorcing.
My path it still straight. I'm mildly curious about what his path looks like.
Grace
Good Morning Grace
I am glad you’re doing alright.
Review the agreement well; it’s surprising how simple and straight forward an agreement it is to dissolve a marriage. A pretty obvious realization; one I, and probably most of us, never even thought of.
H’s email and his wishing he could undo all this, if he could. His emotional state at the time. And then off to a bill he feels he shouldn’t pay for. (BTW, noticed you “think” and he “feels”, just more proof of where he is, and where you are - Yay!)
You are right to follow his actions and not his words.
It’s normal to be curious, to wonder, just what our spouse’s path looks like. I’m sure you’ll see some of it, and the effects. Things are going to get very real for H. Running and growing up. It’s a sad state for a tormented soul.
He has to walk his path, and you have to walk your’s.
I believe you are doing a very fine job of things. No huge venting, or rage. A mostly indifferent detached compassion and empathy. How do you think, feel, and believe towards your forgiveness towards H in the midst of all this?
Keep moving forward.
DnJ
Grace
MY XH got a little crazy during the D and worse after D
I think besides the loss of property and money and attorney fees, It sets them in a spin
their NEW reality is not so pretty and I think they see glimpses of the truth
their choices to let everything go
the loss of the kids/family/friends/finances
all for this fantasy life...that never seems to unfold as they planned
The reality of the OW, and how sick she really is
and from my world Ive never seen my XH recover from his choices to this point
I still have hope he may get himself together-
Review the agreement well; it’s surprising how simple and straight forward an agreement it is to dissolve a marriage. A pretty obvious realization; one I, and probably most of us, never even thought of.
My agreement, unfortunately, needs a lot of work. I think part of the problem is my H and I did all the negotiations, and I just informed the attorney (well, her legal assistant) as things were agreed to. It didn't translate well. But, I have a meeting 8 a.m. Monday morning to hopefully straighten it all out. But yes, the first thing I noticed was how succinct the end of my marriage was. 12 pages only, and a lot of that just legal mumbo jumbo. Oh well, I guess it's better than being so complicated I don't understand it!
I believe you are doing a very fine job of things. No huge venting, or rage. A mostly indifferent detached compassion and empathy. How do you think, feel, and believe towards your forgiveness towards H in the midst of all this?
I do feel very detached. I guess empathy is there, but not sure how much compassion there is. After all. This is the result of his decisions. Am I at full forgiveness yet? Not sure. I don't know exactly what that is suppose to be like. I told him months ago that I forgave him. But don't think I really did at the time. Maybe I'm almost there.
MY XH got a little crazy during the D and worse after D
Thankfully, I haven't seen crazy. Lashing out a bit, sure. But not crazy. I'm a bit curious about what OW thinks about H and his moods. Perhaps she has enough of her own to not really notice. Oh well, that's their dance.
He deposited the agreed alimony today along with the money I asked for his share of the bills, including the vet. I hope that's a good sign that he is resolved to the agreement, and will continue to do so.
Time will tell.
Hello Grace
Am I at full forgiveness yet? Not sure. I don't know exactly what that is suppose to be like. I told him months ago that I forgave him. But don't think I really did at the time. Maybe I'm almost there.
A perfect answer.
I was in a similar position also. It’s strange that we don’t know what forgiveness is. What it feels like. What it is supposed to be like.
FWIW, forgiveness keeps growing. You live it.
Forgiveness is like a skill (kind of), it takes practice. You are there, and were there, it just gets better and stronger day by day. So when looking back it appears (to you) that you weren’t.
Grace you are doing very well, and that numb feeling does pass. We do stay detached; it’s just that something comes alive within us again. Keep feeding the better wolf.
DnJ
So H met up with a couple we used to socialize with. He reached out to them. I still socialize with them, but he hasn't seen them in over a year. He said that if OW knew, she would go ballistic. Well well. Already lying and sneaking.
He apparently gave "permission" to my friend to share some general things with me about what they spoke about. When she shared with me, I could tell she was choosing her words carefully. Obviously a lot more was said. I didn’t ask, though. Apparently he is miserable (not surprised). She said very, very confused. Again, not surprised. He told them that he doesn’t really want a divorce, at least he didn’t think so, and that he is feeling pressured to do something he’s not sure he wants. That he thinks we could have had a good life together.
Huh? WTH. Not in the last almost 2 years has he said anything remotely like that to me. Why now? Why to them? To what end? There is also a story about why he ended up buying a place with OW. She didn't share it with me, obviously
was asked not to. Well, whatever story it is, the bottom line is he took a pen and signed the papers. His choice. He did say to them that what he did to me was wrong. He should be saying this to ME. Not them. Irritates me a bit.
I may never get a sincere apology. I’ll have to accept that. Anyway, she said she told him over and over he needed counseling, desperately. Maybe this was divine intervention to start some process for H. Who knows?
It bothered me a lot over the weekend. Thinking about all the what ifs. Wondering if I should be filing for D.
But, I realize I still must. He hasn’t reached out to me at all, and in fact sent another snarky message to me today that he won’t be pushed, bulled, or rushed to review the Marriage Settlement Agreement. This was in response to my heads up to him it was coming, and to please review it in a timely manner.
So the process marches on. I hope he doesn’t stall. If he does, I may just file for divorce, have him served, then he will have only 20 days to respond.
As much as I don’t want to be divorced, I realize I must, and want to, stay the course.
I need to keep my resolve in what’s best for me and the kids. And one can continue to stand after a divorce if one chooses, can’t they?
Do I want to? That question doesn’t have to be answered today, or tomorrow, or next week.
As my friend DnJ say, time will bring answers.
Grace
Grace,
Sad to say, but I think yours is a lot like mine. I think he met with the friend so that the message would get back to you that he is unhappy and having doubts (to keep you on the shelf of course). Then he worried he was too vulnerable/too exposed and was going to be rejected, so he snarked at you to push back and make himself feel more in control.
I wouldn't hold out any hope for a settlement agreement (I'm on 3 years waiting for mine). Mine agrees to things and then later claims he didn't. Won't meet when I say I want to get it done. Brings it up to me and still won't meet. If you want a divorce and are prepared to do all the work for it (and probably drag a reluctant body along), then go for it. Your kids are older so you don't have to deal with the custody side of it where things can get ugly. If not and if you are fine with things the way they are now, sit tight.
The cycles come and go. Both for them and for us. Until you are completely sure what you want, probably best to wait (unless the finances dictate moving now).
I wouldn't hold out any hope for a settlement agreement (I'm on 3 years waiting for mine).
Why can't the issue be forced by the courts? Can't/won't he agree to mediation to move it along? That would be a nightmare for me. So far, it's moving along for me.
If you want a divorce and are prepared to do all the work for it (and probably drag a reluctant body along), then go for it. Your kids are older so you don't have to deal with the custody side of it where things can get ugly. If not and if you are fine with things the way they are now, sit tight.
I have done all the work. He just responds to questions. I'm not fine with the way things are, because I can't tolerate being married to someone living with another woman. Whether he is miserable and just doesn't know a way out, or not, the fact is he's still there. But, part of me wants to see it played out. But, I can do that whether divorced or not.
Until you are completely sure what you want, probably best to wait (unless the finances dictate moving now).
I'm not completely sure, that is now my problem. I'm comfortable with my decision to push forward with the D, but not completely sure I'm doing the right thing. H messaged me today to inform me he met with them, and it was helpful to hear their story. My friend said he messaged her again last night first thanking them, but expressing uncertainty, anxiety etc. She just keeps saying the same thing. He needs counseling.
Well, for now, I'm finishing up the paperwork. I haven't filed for D yet, but that will be done when the Marriage Settlement Agreement is finished.
Grace
My underlying case is likely far more complex and not worth reiterating here, but make sure you and your attorney discuss what happens if he doesn't respond (do you need discovery or can you just take a default and be done), if he doesn't participate in discovery (do you have other ways to get the information you need), if you have to obtain subpoenas, if you have to file motions to compel, and motions for contempt for violations of the motions to compel, the costs for these things, and what a default judgment (if he truly doesn't participate) looks like for you. Does it give you the relief you seek?
Also consider, if he truly doesn't want this action, if he is giving you money, what happens if he stops paying you? How long could you go without money? How much does your attorney estimate it would take to get temporary orders to get the money flowing again? The way people behave before litigation begins is often different than how they behave after, particularly when they are conflicted or mentally ill.
These things sound simple at the surface, but there is more below. It may be that they don't tip your scale one way or the other, just make sure you know what you are getting into if you commence litigation against someone who sounds truly conflicted and may not move from point A to point B in a logical fashion. Read some of HaWho's account of how her husband behaved during divorce, Gerda's or Pax's. Mine filed for divorce and then completely stopped communicating with his lawyer to the point where I was getting fined by the court for the case not moving forward and not in position to get a default (since he filed and I was asking for more than I would get on default).
Read some of HaWho's account of how her husband behaved during divorce, Gerda's or Pax's.
Reading along here and seeing my name in that list gave me quite a jolt. I was almost proud to be in such good company but part of me was also like, "Oh no, I am not like these other stories here." The denial is the knee jerk that you have to keep overturning! So then I started thinking, "Well, how DID my H behave during divorce?" and wondering what it looks like to all of you out there in TV Land. I realize I don't think I know that much about Pax or HaWho's D's unfolding and if they were like mine is.
In my case, all that I did all these years to stand bit me in the rear. Because I have been able to keep everything running on fumes and working many jobs, etc., without ever asking H for help, because by myself I cleaned up every mess, dealt with all the court cases and IRS and everything else from the biz he abandoned, even while I had cancer, his L was able to paint this massive lie of me hiding money or having secret sources, etc. His L also just lied in general, and my L kept telling me that the judge doesn't care about any facts or read anything until trial, so we wouldn't be able to debunk the lies til then. And in the end, I surrendered to a horrible deal that traps me for the next six months unless H (and OW) gets tired of waiting for his dream offer, just to avoid trial or H moving back in. But really the thing about my case is that it wasn't just H getting crazier and crazier and more and more vicious and convincing himself more and more that his delusions were real -- and it wasn't just that his lawyer was straight out of a movie of an evil ambulance-chaser lawyer -- it was my judge. Notoriously lazy -- e.g., won't read any documents or listen to anything you say unless you hire an expert -- even just a bank statement. Notorious for not caring about the children -- refused to listen to anything about H's drinking or neglect of the kids, etc., unless I hired an attorney for the kids. (She even literally screamed at me to shut my mouth about H when I said, "Your honor, I would really like to settle some issues about the children because I do not think my H is a fit parent," unless I had the money to prove it with a lawyer for the kids and a forensics person, etc.)
Point being -- learn your judge too. That can make or break things in terms of fairness so you want to be very pragmatic about the likely outcomes with your judge.
And finally -- for me, in the end I still want to save myself from some things I consider slaveries, and that I can only do via faith. I am trying to hold on to my house, despite the urgings of some of my friends here. But I am not fighting for what is fair in terms of how that happens, and I am totally at peace with losing that and anything else I have to lose. I would give H double what he would get by default if it would end this and if I had it. And I think I am still glad I chose to surrender to such an unfair settlement if it means I have more left of ME and my health for my kids. Even on a secular level, and especially if you don't have to worry about younger kids, I think it's better to surrender some of what you deserve for the sake of moving past this horror show as quickly as you can.
The last thing I will say is something my dad told me recently about when he and my mom divorced. She was about like my H in what she did (including accusing him of hiding money!), and my dad, though certainly not an easy guy to get along with, did not want to D. He told me that his L advised him to have no loose ends, nothing to keep him tied to my mom -- e.g., alimony, etc. He said to have it all settled once so there would be nothing left to argue about. So he did alimony as one payment in a credit on the house she kept, for example. Grace, I would advise you to take my dad's advice, esp if your H is that confused and if the grasping clawing OW is in the picture. Don't rely on future payments but take less as a lump sum off the asset now -- or in whatever way you can, let this be the end of it.
To me it sounds like your H could come out of this one day -- he says a lot of things to you that I have always wished my H would say to me. And I know you are open to restoration. But in both of your case and mine there was so much evil happening via the money ties and all related to the OW that the D seems like the only way to get a clean slate. The clean slate can be the start of your life without him -- or, if you ever want to restore, it can keep things very clear, you can rebuild as an independent woman with no financial expectations of each other ever again. I mean, sometimes you express some confusion yourself about your choice to pursue this divorce, but like DnJ says, the D is all about business, not about the vow per se. I thin you have made it pretty clear to your H that this is not what you want and that you are being forced into it because he has been so financially irresponsible with what is both of yours. But you can always let him know that again at some point if it feels right, that for you this is the end of your financial connection but does not have to be the end should things change one day. Until recently, I imagined that outcome for me too, that if H ever came back, I would never again have joint finances, no matter what. Now I can't really imagine him coming back but whatever happens, I am looking forward to having no financial ties to any man ever again -- except my dad! : )
OwnIt - You have given me some food for thought, and a few questions for my attorney. Thanks. Luckily, I'm financially secure even if H goes even further off the rails and cuts me off. For now, he is paying the agreed monthly alimony as well as his share of the joint bills. Luckily, he is now off cell, etc., so it's getting pretty straight forward. I did ask my attorney about what if he drags his feet. We haven't filed for D yet, so that would be the next step because it would give us court ordered deadlines. One day at a time.
Gerda - You also gave me some things to think about. Although I do not forsee going before a judge. It's completely uncontested. I was fairly generous, and only went for my fair share. I didn't go overboard. Could I have gotten more if I took him to court? Probably. But, after all, I am not out to get him, and I have enough to live on and for my future. Could I go for more? Probably. But that's not me.
To me it sounds like your H could come out of this one day -- he says a lot of things to you that I have always wished my H would say to me. And I know you are open to restoration. But in both of your case and mine there was so much evil happening via the money ties and all related to the OW that the D seems like the only way to get a clean slate. The clean slate can be the start of your life without him -- or, if you ever want to restore, it can keep things very clear, you can rebuild as an independent woman with no financial expectations of each other ever again. I mean, sometimes you express some confusion yourself about your choice to pursue this divorce, but like DnJ says, the D is all about business, not about the vow per se. I think you have made it pretty clear to your H that this is not what you want and that you are being forced into it because he has been so financially irresponsible with what is both of yours. But you can always let him know that again at some point if it feels right, that for you this is the end of your financial connection but does not have to be the end should things change one day.
Yes, the confusion is there about the D. I just don't feel I'm in it 100%. Well, maybe no one is unless they are escaping violence, evil, etc. You are correct in that I am open to restoration. I've said as much to several people recently. They look at me like I have 2 heads, and ask why, but I don't say too much. No one can know what it is to be in our shoes, what standing means. The one's that DO understand are my devout Christian friends. Of course I think that's what it would take - Christ, His grace, and ability to restore the most broken. We will see what He has for me.
Your reminder that D is all business, and the emotional side is separate, is very timely. There is no way we can reconcile as the people we were. I have changed too much, and am happy and content in my life. I still want H to come along for the rest of the ride. If some day he heals, and makes real change, I could see us starting over and being very happy. But, in the mean time, I am living my life to the fullest. Perhaps God has other plans for me, another person that is meant for me in the next season of my life. I don't know. I will just live life, and see where it takes me.
P.S. Gerda - I am taking a trip with the kids to NYC between Christmas and New Years.......
Grace, can you do a full legal separation, like a post-nup, that has all the same financial power but puts off a D? You're going to be married in God's eyes either way, but if you are unsure, could be a still small voice....
What are your exact trip dates?
Gerda - I think the Marriage Settlement Agreement is legally binding even if I do not file for D right now. There is some language in it about that. One of the questions for my attorney.
You're going to be married in God's eyes either way
I'm not sure about this. The Bible tells us we can be divorced on grounds of adultery and an unbeliever (I'd have to look at this one again). H is both at the moment. Doesn't mean I won't stand or move on with someone else even if we do D, but I don't think in this instance God would condemn me if I decide to not reconcile should the opportunity arise.
I'll be in NYC Dec 26 - 30.
Grace
Grace,
God would not condemn you if you decided not to reconcile after divorce. The Bible does tell us that we can be divorced on the grounds of adultery. The Priest in my church has had many discussions w/our congregation on this topic, i.e., those who have been divorced and/or going through divorce.
You will know, when the time comes, if you should follow through on divorce. I would ask my lawyer those questions that are still on your mind. Jot them down and either make an appointment of shoot him a text/email to get the answers.
Grace and Job -- I would never suggest God would condemn anyone for divorcing! I am sure that God hates war too, but that doesn't mean that we can always avoid war, and sometimes we have to fight wars in order to keep evil at bay.
That said, I do think marriage is a covenant with God even more than it is with our spouses. I don't think the civil dissolution can change that though I am sure God loves and forgives us and uses whatever we do for the good if we end up marrying again after divorce. There is certainly nothing shameful in a life of chastity and devotion to your children and extended family without further romantic ties with another man -- that is a great way to be devoted to God. And my experience as a child of divorce and remarriage is that it was fraught with other troubles. But I don't know that I have a solo life in me, or even that I am called to it. I know God put it on my heart to stand and I know many incredible things happened to me and for me as I walked the path of standing, including the part that included being chaste. I am pretty sure I won't be able to keep doing that, but seven years of doing it (and really more like 8 or 9, when I think of the downward spiral before MLC truly hit) brought a lot of graces to me. I am pretty sure that it would be part of an incredible God-centered life if I did continue that path, even if I don't think I will.
Have you ever heard John Piper's talk on that issue of remarriage? Or Tim Keller?
I would never judge you and I would never suggest that God would condemn you! Grace, you keep talking about your uncertainty and something bothering you about it, and that is what I was responding to.
Your dates may coincide with mine, my plans are still up in the air. Let's powwow about that in December. I don't know if there is a way to contact each other but we can figure out something if our dates coincide this time or anytime. I would love love love that.
Hello Grace
I really like what OwnIt, Gerda, and job said.
I need to keep my resolve in what’s best for me and the kids. And one can continue to stand after a divorce if one chooses, can’t they?
Do I want to? That question doesn’t have to be answered today, or tomorrow, or next week.
As my friend DnJ say, time will bring answers.
You can stand for as long as you choose.
Do you want to? You are very right - that can be answered later.
And it’s even ok to stand down, and then stand again. This isn’t black and white; lot of shades in there.
Time will indeed bring answers.
Yes divorce is pretty much a business transaction. The emotional component happened, and is happening, already; divorce is that piece of paper. And of course there is the finality of it as well. The separation agreement is binding and can be undone, and usually has a cooling off period of a year before a final divorce can be applied for.
Is anyone ever really 100% ready? Do you need to be? How about 95%, or 99%? In truth, how does one measure something like that anyhow? Feelings. Yep, we use feelings. That is the source of our doubts.
I think you know your thoughts about what you want to, and should do, regarding the separation agreement. And you are 95% or so, emotionally accepting of it as well. Feelings are stirring up a bit, then settling again; understandable with H’s latest confiding in friend and their telling you. Hence the questions.
I know you expressed a desire about a timeline for separation - by end of year. Honestly, there is no rush. You have lots of time, and time does bring answers.
I am not suggesting you stop or necessarily even reconsider you course; you are a smart gal and have a very reasoned approach. Just remind yourself, for your own piece of mind, and self encouragement that this is indeed the right thing:
That you are doing this for you, and not as some manipulation against H, or for H. That this is for you.
After all this time, all your posts, and all our discussions - I believe that you are deciding this for you.
What do you believe?
DnJ
Journaling....
The negotiations continue. The jabs continue. The changing emotions continue.
Yesterday D20 called and said “dad sent another e-mail”. She wasn’t crying this time, but sounded very down. This was the 2nd e-mail he sent her since their BD (when I told them about their dad moving in with OW etc). She has never responded.
We talked about it a bit. I don’t know what it said, but we chatted about her feelings, her anger, and that at some point she will want to try to deal with them. I told her to take her time, and if she wanted to respond back, so take her time with that as well.
Then I received a long text msg from H, informing me he contacted the kids, informing me they are still blaming him. It seems like they don’t want a relationship with me if I’m not liking with you”. (Not true)
“obviously I don’t know how we possibly all could get together on the holidays given the situation”. I don’t think I can handle the three-way hostility”.
Huh? No one said we were going to get together like a family. And I’ve never been hostile. Ever. Besides, wouldn’t he want to spend the holidays with his GF? So bizarre.
There was lots more. Other accusations and more blame The 2 messages were long. I felt a needed to respond, and I did via e-mail. It was long. I didn’t get involved in defending myself or even close, but did refute his nonsense. I then ended with something more heartfelt. It was things I planned to say in a letter after the divorce (well, an excerpt). I had no expectations he would respond. It said some pretty intense things. I’m not sorry I put myself out there. I felt it needed to be said. That was last night.
He did not respond, as expected.
And I’m o.k. with it.
Then today, I get a very long e-mail about the settlement agreement. Apparently he spoke with an attorney. More negotiations must take place. I’ll be speaking to my attorney on Monday. He also gave me an outrageously high price for the household furniture. No way will I pay it. He can come and take some of this old stuff, and I will just buy new. (He won’t, because his girlfriend furnished their place and there is not room for it). But just because he doesn’t want it doesn’t mean I have to pay top price for it.
I’m o.k. with all of this though. It is what it is. Just something I will have to deal with for a while longer.
I guess his olive branch to our friends, and their advice, was wasn’t energy.
Oh well. My fab life goes on. So does his not so fab life.
Grace
I believe my choices will all lead me to a place of peace, contentment, happiness and joy.
Grace,
Anything that you purchased or was a gift from someone else to you, he cannot put a price tag on it. For example, if you had a sibling who gave you a clock, then he can't claim it. As for the old stuff, if he doesn't want it, tell him to donate it to charity.
Hang in there. He's going to come up w/some really stupid stuff along the way....he's doing many things like my xh did. They tend to follow similar paths around here. Dig deeper for patience and stand your ground.
Dig deeper for patience and stand your ground.
Luckily my patience is not wearing thin. In fact, I seem to have more. I just respond to his e-mails, work with my attorney, and live my life. Just sent an e-mail with a few questions to hopefully get a few last items clear for the agreement. My attorney asked me today about requesting financial disclosures. I am with almost 100% certainty confident that H isn't hiding some big asset somewhere, since I saw his paychecks come in our entire married life, and I paid all the bills. But, she put the seed of doubt in my mind, so I am considering asking for financial disclosure. I of course will happily provide mine, too. That might create more drama than I'm want, however. I have to think about it a bit more
I was in such a rush to "just get it over" not that long ago. I seem to suddenly not be in a rush, but to just live my life as if I'm divorced (except for the dating). The only thing that bugs me a bit is his stuff still here. I could pack it up, but I don't want to do his work. We'll see how that goes as time goes on.
Life continue to be good.
Grace
The only thing that bugs me a bit is his stuff still here. I could pack it up, but I don't want to do his work. We'll see how that goes as time goes on.
Pack that stuff up, Gracie! You can't imagine how cathartic it is to get it all out and come up with something cool to do with the new empty space. (Maybe you will get to see what I did in Dec!) I packed it all and lugged it to the car and lugged it to the storage space and paid for it, a story made famous on my thread. : ) It was a lot of work, and it was work I was glad I did. It's not his work because you don't want him over there doing that. Just send him an envelope with the keys and instructions for the storage space and tell him you paid for one month and be done with it! I can say with no doubts that doing that was really good for me and made my home a happier space for ME.
Hi Gerda.
I agreed to let H keep his stuff here until July 2020 in exchange for higher life insurance. Thought that was a good exchange. But, it's suppose to be in the garage after the D, but the longer it gets delayed, the longer it will be here. I'm not that upset about it, well, not upset at all. just a bit irritated from time to time. And, it's too much stuff for me to move. It's A LOT!
What will I do with all the space? Probably just enjoy the feeling of having junk purged. LOL.
That does sound like a good exchange. But I still say you should invite a friend over and box it up and move it to the garage. Or hire someone to do it. You will be amazed at how you feel at home with it gone.
Grace, do you think that on the 26th we could actually meet up? I might be traveling on the 26th or the 27th but if I could see you on the 26th I would plan around it!
Hi Gerda - I land at 6 pm (LGA). I would imagine I won't get to the hotel until 7:30 (midtown). If you don't mind meeting a bit late, even for and hour or so, I would love it!
Journaling......
Negotiations continue, life moves along.
H has not retained an attorney. He's not well informed. I, on the other hand, got it all down. Feels good. H said it will depend on the draft agreement whether he retains an attorney. H being not informed is dragging this a bit, but I'm o.k. with it. I've got a full holiday season coming up, and my life i full in general. The process needs to move along at the pace it was meant to.
In an e-mail about the settlement, after going through a few points 1,2,3...# 4 said "I did read your note from last week. I will respond at some point. I don’t have the words right now". I had earlier reported here that I put a few heartfelt words down to him with no expectations. I am mildly interested in what he will say, but not waiting for it.
#5 said "I’m sorry about all this. I know you’re suffering too. I wish I could undo all of this and turn back the clock. I miss my family."
I sent back a response to the points in the e-mail that related to the agreements, then just said " My note to you of last week was sent with no expectations, but I look forward to your thoughts. The past can not be undone, but one doesn't have to be stuck in it forever."
I said this because I am not stuck. I am living. He's stuck because of his own actions or inaction. I hope some day he figures that out. He has the power. He just doesn't know it yet.
And by the way.
I'm not suffering.
I wonder why he thinks I am?
Life if good.
Grace
Hello Grace
The process needs to move along at the pace it was meant to.
Love that. Hit the nail right on the head with that one.
You sound really good. Full of acceptance and understanding.
So why does H think you’re suffering? (You certainly don’t sound like it.)
Because he is.
He will see the world through his sad suffering lens. He will project upon people his story lines of suffering or faults or deeds, whatever it is to ease himself. And in the moments when he does realize how well you are doing he probably wishes it was not so. Misery does love company.
Life is good indeed.
Keep shinning girl.
DnJ
A small emotional setback this week.
H has been reaching out to that mutual friend he met with a few weeks ago. A lot. She and I had dinner this week, and she shared a lot of what he was saying to her.
H had said to me in an email he was "not happy. Torn". That he "cared for me. Deeply. More than I realize'. Wishing me a Happy Thanksgiving. Exact words: "Hope all of you enjoy your Thanksgiving Holidays. obviously I won't be around"
I almost regret my friend sharing what H wrote to her. Reading what H sent to me.
H is a mess. Why should I care? I'm not really surprised.
I think his expressions of being not happy. Torn. Caring for me, prompted expectations in me. Did I expect him to act on it? Give me the big apology I so crave?
Maybe.
Probably.
Time to get back on track.
I've got family and friends coming for Thanksgiving. Lots of activities and several invitations to parties for Christmas. My life is blessed. Full.
I do feel sorry for H. But, he is living his choices.
Life is much the sum of our choices, isn't it?
Grace.
(((Grace))) You are right...life is the sum of our choices and you H is living his. Nice to know that not all WASs are as sure about their choices as they seem. Regardless...we LBSs have to move forward and leave them to their own devices. Glad to read you are keeping up your PMA and making plans with friends. (((HUGS)))
Caring for me, prompted expectations in me. Did I expect him to act on it? Give me the big apology I so crave?
This right here is the crux of a lot of my current emotional state as well Grace. My former and I are still no contact, but I get emotional at the realization I will very likely never receive an authentic and understanding apology that I (at times) desperately want. It's like she has no idea what she had done to me. Or maybe she does, and feels the kindest thing to do is stay away. Who knows.
Because for me I know even if I were to receive an apology right now I could not handle it. It would tear me down back to wanting her back and having expectations that she wanted the same.
You are not off-track. You ARE on-track. It's just that sometimes the track is wobbly with emotion. You're still doing what's best for you and that's what really matters.
This concept of wanting an apology is totally normal. I am 5 yrs. post BD and divorced. I no longer crave it because I know I truly deserve it. I was far from perfect. But I deserved better - not because I am so great, but rather, because his treatment towards me was so disproportionate to what I was owed after so many good years.
This is on them. In the end, I feel sorry for them. Stable people don’t do these sorts of things. They have lost the plot.
Good Morning Grace
An apology. That would nice.
That big apology that we crave.
But, what is an apology? What is it that you imagine? What is it you want or are wishing/hoping for?
The “I’m sorry....etc,”, the words? I think the words would become hollow pretty fast.
Grovelling? Begging for forgiveness? Probably not what you are after. Without doubt it would be a start, but lacks substance.
Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.
The apology - the sincere admission of guilt or fault and an expression of true remorse for thoughts and/or deeds. Includes the fallout and affect of their actions upon others and the collateral damage. An ownership and a desire for amends.
That, of course, is going to take a while. They will start with seeing/accepting their guilty feelings. Move into seeing their fault in this. Regrets will happen, but true remorse will take some time and inner searching. Regrets are self looking, remorse has a pronounced empathy within it. And MLCer lacks empathy, so remorse is going to be down the path.
However, regrets. Expressions of regret. Actions and words. Part of that apology.
H stated in an email to you that he is not happy, he is torn. He cared for you. Deeply, and more than you realize.
Regrets. H’s regrets - at that moment in time. Remember, consistent long term behaviour - not one time things. Still he did express some feelings and expressed them to you. Something I have yet to receive.
That is an apology. Probably the best he can do right now. Not the one you are imagining, the big grand “I’m such an idiot, what was I thinking?” kind of thing; a little lesser which is understandable he is of course still working his way through things.
Did you respond? Thanked him and hoped that he also enjoys his Thanksgiving? I figure you probably responded kindly in some fashion.
Does his email and words change your path? It shouldn’t. And I don’t think it did; you are still on track. You never fell off it; it just felt like you did.
We follow our beliefs, those slowly changing values. Feelings will stir, get created, and flit. An apology from a MLCer who is peeking out during the holidays. Treat him kindly and follow your beliefs.
As H’s actions and words become consistent, his apologies more empathy filled, your beliefs will alter if you want them too.
It’s ok to want that apology. To take that desire out of storage once in a while and shake out the dust and wrinkles, like a blanket from the far back of the shelf. Realize your desire is driven on two fronts - from your ego, the wanting to be validated; and empathy and caring for H, wanting him to grow and heal.
Your desire is out in the light. Shook out and fresh an crisp. Fold it back into storage, knowing where, what, and why it is.
Your path has become a blessed and full life; much from your choices. Perhaps a big apology is awaiting in your unknown future; maybe even I have one in store. We’ll only know once we get there, and one needs to move forward to discover what the future has.
The choice to let go and look towards the future - a blessed and full life indeed.
DnJ
Gracie, a practical matter. How to make a plan. So far we will be in the same place on Dec 26. Is there a way I could leave you my contact info at your hotel or somewhere else. Or can we PM Job our info and she can get it to us?
You can't private message on this forum as the capability is not activated. Unfortunately, the moderators do not have access to any contact info on the posters, therefore, it would be impossible for us to assist in a meet up. The best thing to do is suggest a meeting place and describe what you will wear. For example, you may have a purple hat on or be holding something out of the ordinary. I would suggest a meet up place and not a hotel (for safety reasons). You never know who is lurking on the forum and may opt to play "surprise" to you in that area.
Gerda - I'll be staying in midtown. I could suggest a pub or coffee shop. You can either leave a message there that day, or we can just plan to meet. If one of us can't make it, I guess we could just post here. Will you be unavailable after the 26th? Thoughts?
Grace -- I will suggest a place. I am trying to rent out my apartment during that time to be able to pay for a trip somewhere with the kids and that is why the dates may be out of my control and are still unknown. We'll check in a few days before X-Mas and then delete the post after we have both seen it.
BTW Midtown -- It is very touristy and there are not very many places to go that aren't extremely expensive. The "real" neighborhoods where New Yorkers live and go out are all the other ones. For your D especially there are other neighborhoods where all the cool young beautiful people go out. : ) It is easy to get to Times Square from anywhere. But maybe you are looking for the big lights experience and you can visit the other places.
Hi Gerda - I will await your message. I do hope you are able to rent your apartment so that you and the kids can have a nice trip.
I know Midtown is touristy. But, it seemed a good central location - walking distance to Central Park, Times Square, etc. The kids have their agenda, and it's for them. My thing was the Rockettes. Tickets are purchased. S22 said he wanted to go to each surrounding borough, but I don't think that will be feasible in 4 days. LOL
BTW - how does one delete a post?
The moderators delete postings.
Thanksgiving Day has come to a close. Kids are home. Sis and BIL here for a week. A friend and her 2 kids, another friend and her cousin joined us around the table. Another friend popped in to say hello. It was a wonderful day.
Lots of e-mail exchanges with H this week. A (sort of) apology shared by H. Reasons (excuses) about why he did what he did (purchase a place with OW). Way too much to write here. I just said I appreciated his words, and understand that they were not easy to share.
Today I was surrounded by friends and family. In my own home. I felt loved, and H was on my mind today. I decided to send him a message "In spite of it all, I am thinking about you today. Happy Thanksgiving".
H: "Yes me to. Difficult day. Miss all of you. Including you".
I sent my note with no expectations. And his words didn't affect me like one might think they would. They make me sad for H. Although he lives with someone, I think he feels very, very much alone.
Much like I felt in the weeks and months before I asked H to move out.
The opposite of what I feel now.
I have a lot to be thankful for.
I am thankful for my friends here and the wise advice.
To my American friends here.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Grace
Good Morning Grace
Surrounded by friends and family in one’s own house, is a wonderful slice of heaven to be thankful for.
Your note to H was very nice and sincere.
You have rose above this situation and found a peaceful and gentle path. You are waking it well, an excellent example.
Have a great day.
DnJ
A great Thanksgiving week has come to a close. Advent has come. A time of Hope, Peace , Love and Joy.
The house is decorated. H was always big on decorating the outside. He always did such a wonderful job. I did it this year. Not as elaborate, but it looks great. Kids decorated the tree before they went back to school. It was nice having them home to do it, and to carry on that tradition.
It was a bit sad, but in a fleeting way. I think I was more sad for H, because I know he will not have that special time, either with the kids or maybe not even with OW. I wonder if they will even decorate.
Looking at ornaments in commemoration of our wedding and places we have visited. Carefully packing away H’s Christmas stocking. H’s stocking missing from the family group. I wonder if he will ask for it?
Nostalgia. A bit of missing sharing all of this with H.
S22 met with H for lunch on Saturday. He said his dad apologized for how it all went down, and he could tell he was sincere from his eyes. Maybe. I have mixed feelings about it all. I think he’s let H off the hook way too easy. But, I guess that’s up to S22 if it’s enough to continue on. Not me. I asked him how his dad looked. He said “his hair was messy”. (My Aspie kid is not exactly astute). I clarified what I meant, and he said “disheveled”. He told me H told him he wasn’t happy. Why would he say that? Looking for sympathy, maybe? Oh well. It’s useless for me to spend any time pondering their interaction.
H asked him to provide a Christmas list. Wanted one from D20 too. S22 readily complied. D20 said she wasn’t sure she wanted any gifts from him as she would feel she was being “bought off”. She is going to discuss with her therapist this week. Lots of feelings starting to surface.
She had a big meltdown this weekend, and we had a long talk. She shared some pretty profound things – about feeling abandoned by her dad, not just now but growing up. Said she felt all he wanted to do was bring home the money, and he never “parented” her. In essence, she felt abandoned emotionally.
I can definitely relate to that………
She also shared some things about me (in reference to when she was growing up). I told her that as her mom, I parented the best way I knew how, but I am also human and made mistakes, looking back. I apologized for them, and suggested that we could have some counseling sessions with her therapist to address it and help us both heal. She thought that was a good idea.
She expressed fear about “turning out like her dad” – unhappy, unemotional, unable to have connections. I told her that’s why I was so proud of her addressing it now, so that she can have a full, joyful life. I told her I understood that this was one of the most difficult things she might ever do – go to therapy and address her demons. But, that she should be so proud of herself, and added that she is doing something that her dad has yet been unable to do, and she is amazing.
It was all pretty heavy. She will move home at least for a semester. Maybe take on-line classes. She needs to regroup. Try various activities that can provide joy, and a sense of accomplishment.
I have lots of things planned for the month, and am glad my life is busy and full. It will change a bit when D20 moves back home. I will have to figure out how to carefully balance being present for her, without giving up my hard-earned life.
I continue to pray for guidance, wisdom, and H.
Grace
Grace, I totally feel you on the heartache of being a mom and of looking back and looking forward. I am glad you are decorating, making beauty there outside and in.
oh my gosh so excited!!!!!
I am having such a hard day/week with divorce stuff, just the thought of seeing you is such a lift!
I am not sure still about plans for the 27th so iet's do the 26th to be safe, and we can always shift it if I find out I can meet another of your days. But I am a night owl and don't mind meeting you late (I mean 10 or 11, etc) if you prefer.
You can bring your kids to say hi -- I am sure they will want to wander off for an hour and not listen to a couple of middle aged ladies yapping. I can give them some ideas of where to wander.
I copied your flight info. Updates we can put here and the color of our hats. : ) And then that day we could leave messages for each other at the place we are meeting if anything goes wrong.
XOXO and WOW this is pretty amazing
Gerda -
I'm sorry you are having a hard week. ((((Gerda))))
Grace
Your D is doing amazing work--
Im so happy for both of you and yes while it seems difficult now-she will be free from her childhood- and ready to create better
H messaged me last week that he would like to meet. That he did not have an agenda, but would like to meet anyway.
Today was the day. We met at a restaurant.
I was determined to let him drive the conversation. We were silent for a few moments when I sat down, so I decided to share with him a bit about D20 sitch. I had previously told him I would if we ever met, as it was too complicated and important to discuss in an e-mail.
I am not sure how much he was able to comprehend how serious her sitch is right now. But, how he handles it, and what he chooses to believe is on him. I have no control over that. I did share a bit about how she and I were working out our own relationship, and that I was going to go to a counseling session with her.
There was some chit chat, a few tears (him), a lot of avoidance of the eyes (him), and some sharing of a few profound things.
He asked how I was doing. I said very well, that I have a full, joyful life. The truth.
He shared he was depressed. More justifications for why he did what he did. He told me that this was all his fault, and not mine at all. I said nothing about that.
He said he was going to find a counselor.
Wow. First time he said that. I shared with him a bit that I truly wanted him to be healthy and happy. That if he was in the same place he was for the last past year and more (his words), wasn’t it time he considered making a decision to change that if he didn’t like it? He nodded his head yes.
I asked him a bit about life with OW – was he satisfied with his life. (can’t remember the exact words). He said he didn’t want to talk bad about her, but that as long as he did what she said and wanted, she was fine. That he has made no commitments to her (I politely disagreed because a property is a commitment), and I said I didn’t think that was a good way to live. He didn’t verbally say it, but a slight nod of the head said he thought so too.
He said he didn’t want me to think that he was trying to draw me in. I told him that I am strong, and in a good place, and that my decisions will be what is best for me.
I did tell him that I suport whatever he chooses to do to help heal and get in a better place, that counseling was a good idea, and I reiterated that I just want him to be happy. He mentioned the continuing strong urge to flee, but I just said that he can’t flee from himself. He agreed.
At the end, I asked him a blunt question.
Me: Do you want a divorce?
H: Long pause. No, not really.
Me: Why?
H: I don’t think our story is over yet.
M: I don’t think our story is over yet either, but I have no idea what that means. You have never once, in over a year, said those words or shown any action to support it.
H mentioned several times that he didn't want me to think he was trying to draw me in. I find that a bit interesting. That is probably exactly what he is trying to do, even subconsciously, to keep me on the hook.
It won't work.
As we left, H asked for permission to hug me. He said that he wanted to continue the dialogue (not his words exactly, but you get the gist).
I said that was totally up to him, that he will have to initiate it if and when he wants. He said he understood.
I hadn’t seen H in about 4 months.
I wasn’t even nervous going to the meeting.
I’m in a good place.
I will continue with the marriage settlement agreement and D.
But right now it’s time to prepare for a Christmas cookie exchange party.
My life is full.
Life is good.
Grace
Grace,
Well done! You handled that conversation like a pro! Hopefully, he will get the help he needs to heal himself.
A cookie exchange party? That sounds like a lot of fun and some delicious food swapping going on.
Enjoy yourself!
Hello Grace
Wow!
What a gift you’ve received. Confirmation of the state of his life and his poor choices.
You handled yourself excellently. Good questions, compassion, listening, and guidance with next to no pressure.
His confusion is so evident. Your blunt question of his desire for divorce highlighted it.
His admission of the lacklustre life with OW, so much shows how these relationships are built upon sand. The fantasy cannot survive; as time goes on more and more energy and effort is required by the MLCer to maintain it.
The future is unknown, and it can remain unknown and be revealed in its own time.
For right now, you’ve got a Christmas cookie exchange party to get ready for.
Man, I could go for a cookie.
DnJ
Can't wait for the 26th! Just thinking about that tonight.
D10 and I had a long long talk about her feelings about H. She wants to tell him how she feels. I listened, trained by you and others here on how to do that and remembering you listening to your daughter.Told my D10 about it a little -- she asked if we could meet DnJ and I told her that actually I was meeting someone from "my group" in real life. She was disappointed she wasn't invited! : )
Gerda,
Please be careful in sharing things concerning this forum w/your children. Your daughter may be quite chatty around your h and the next thing you know, he will be looking online for the name(s) she's dropping. I don't think you want him or the ow to go looking around the net and discovering your threads and then printing them off and using them against you.
Trust me, this has happened to other posters.
Thanks, Job, answered on my thread.
Good evening, friends.
I realized it’s been 2 weeks since I posted more than a few words. I guess life is just moving along, and that is a good thing.
As I write this, I’m in a quiet corner, looking at the glowing Christmas tree and candle lit room. D20 is working on a puzzle nearby, and S22 is gaming with a friend. It’s nice having the kids home. Have to admit, though, it’s an adjustment. I realize my life is full of activity and friendships, and now I have to make sure I get family time in. I guess it’s not a bad problem to have.
My best friend lives right around the corner. I love our impromptu get togethers – wandering over to each other’s home. She includes me in almost all her family get-togethers. She is Vietnamese, and her mom cooks, and cooks, and cooks. I reap the rewards of her labor of love.
Friends call to see how I’m doing, or vent, or ask for advice. Relationships. That’s what life is all about.
I haven’t seen H since our meeting 3 weeks ago. After a few exchanges directly after the meeting, all is quiet. He was going to deliver gifts for the kids to my office tomorrow, but just messaged me that he will give them to S22. S22 asked to meet him for lunch. I just messaged “K”. H is probably relieved he doesn’t need to see me. His posts on FB are ominous. Strange. It’s amazing that a few people actually click “Like”. His most recent post… “rock bottom will teach you lessons that mountain tops never will”. I wonder what lessons he is learning, and whether he believes he’s hit rock bottom.
Not for me to worry about.
I know some of you will say “block him”. Not quite there yet. His posts don’t seem to bother me much. I’ll get there some day, I suppose.
D20 has moved back home for now, and will take on-line classes. She needs her mom now, and that’s o.k. She has a lot to work out. I went to a therapy session with her a few weeks ago. She has a lot of anger, mostly towards her dad, but at me too, from how she perceived our expectations of her while growing up. We have decided we could use some sessions with a therapist that specializes in families and maybe divorce. We both want to better our relationship and communication. I think it’s pretty good now, but we need to resolve some of her past hurts. I don’t see any way she will be able to begin the repair with her dad without a therapist. But, that is somewhere in the future.
Several days ago I dreamed about H for the first time that I can remember since he moved out. It was a long dream, but I only remember one bit – we were facing each other, working on a project/task of some sort, and we looked at each other. He gave me a light kiss on the lips, then we went back to our task. I haven’t thought too much about it except in a fleeting way. I liked how the kiss felt in the dream, though. It was just sweet.
I received what I believe is the last piece of info to complete the draft of the marriage settlement agreement. I gave it to my attorney with a few questions, but I don’t think I will do anything with it until after January 1. I’m not heartless, after all, and I think it’s very likely H is having a rough time this week.
Christmas Eve will be just me and the kids – church, a cold buffet supper, and Christmas movies. Sunday we will exchange gifts, and my GF from around the corner will join up for a meal. Another friend plans to come over for some Christmas cheer at some point in the afternoon. Thursday we leave on our much anticipated trip.
My life if full. I’ve come a long way this year, and I am blessed with so much.
Life is good.
Loved reading this update. Your mind seems very clear, even with all the hills and mountains that you have to climb with kids and with H.
How amazing that you have a BF so close to you. What a blessing.
Many times I have read here that MCLrs revert to a very juvenile mentality. I saw evidence of that yesterday. H made me so mad! I’m working real hard today to let go and not let the negativity infiltrate my joyful Christmas with the kids. It has helped today getting ready for this evening and tomorrow. But I also felt I needed to vent a bit here, too.
So, I previously reported that D20 wasn’t sure she wanted to receive gifts from H. He had asked for a list, and she did not provide one (not to me either, BTW). So, a few weeks ago, H said that he thought she would feel bad if S22 got extra gifts and she didn’t, so he decided to get her a generous gift card. I suggested a place that she could use towards a product she is saving for that is rather pricey.
S22 met H for lunch yesterday, and he came home with the gifts (not yet opened). Me and the kids were chatting about it, and D20 asked whether I told H she wasn’t sure she wanted gifts from him. We discussed it a bit, and I basically said that he just probably felt like he wanted to extend that olive branch. I told her whether she accepts it or not is totally up to her.
Later yesterday, I received a text message from H
H: “Our daughter is refusing my card and gift really? I’m done trying with her. Done.”
Me: “That’s the first I’ve heard of that. Did she say that”?
H: “S22 told me.”
Me: “Well, he shouldn’t have said that. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. If she did refuse it that would be for her to say. And even if she did for you to say you are done with her completely done is really really awful. I can’t believe that you would just toss her away like that. She’s the child, you are the father.”
Me: (several hours later). “Nothing else to say about this?” (I know, I know. But I couldn’t help myself. And I’m really strong now, so I really don’t care how it affects H).
H: (at 4:30 a.m.! I guess he couldn’t sleep. Good!) “ First of all she’s an adult not a child. I didn’t say I was throwing her away. I’m simply done at this point reaching out. I’m tired of having my nose punched by her. After all that I’ve done for her to continue to do this is how I’m being treated. She knows where to find me when she’s ready to have an adult relationship again.”
Well, that is really something, isn’t it? What a self-centered idiot.
It’s too much to include here, but I felt I needed to respond. I am at a place now where I (almost) don’t care how my responses affect him. I used to. I’m paraphrasing:
I said that he obviously didn’t understand her at all, that her feelings are very complicated and she is very fragile, and that her hurts are not just about current circumstances but that lots of old wounds have burst open. I told him his knee-jerk reaction to something S22 sent him was petty and un-called for IMO. And asked him what he’s done for her.
I shared with him something D20 shared with me yesterday. I did not break D20’s confidence by sharing is all, but a small part in general terms. That she understands that he has a lot of his own hurts, and she wants him to get help to heal those hurts. (I didn't say this, but basically she means that for her to start the process with him, he would have to start the process on himself, first.) I shared that D20 and I are having our own tough time in certain aspects, and we are going to therapy after the New Year to work it out. Perhaps he could consider it also.
His little hissy fit is so juvenile. He wants to do absolutely nothing to have a better relationship with D20. Does he really think it will just happen? It’s almost like he’s trying to just go back to the way things were with the kids. S22 may be o.k. with that, because as an Aspie, his emotional IQ is not exactly high. So, a very basic, superficial relationship with his dad is probably o.k. Not so with D20. She’s very afraid of turning out like her dad, is angry that she feels she inherited depression from him, and in no way wants to go back to the old relationship. Just like H and me, she would demand a brand new relationship.
But, that takes will, ability, and work, doesn’t it?
H has none of those qualities at the moment.
I sure hope he was serious about seeking a therapist.
For not only his sake, but for the sake of D20.
Anyway, in spite of it all, I feel blessed. The house is decorated to the max. A great cold-buffet supper will be waiting for us after services along with some Christmas movies and maybe even a glass of wine or 2 for me, and tomorrow a great meal with the kids and I also invited my next-door BF. Filet Mignon (rare for me) on the grill, sautéed wild mushrooms, garlic sautéed spinach, fresh baked bread, and my friend is bringing the desert – pumpkin roll.
The meal will be spectacular.
The company even better.
Then the much anticipated trip on Thursday.
Life truly is good.
Merry Christmas, my friends. I wish for you all Peace, Hope, and Joy.
Grace
Merry Christmas Grace
Wow the house sounds fantastic and so does that meal!
Our MLCers are very juvenile in their attitudes and demands. Yes, they
think feel it is perfectly right to blame the kid.
Your H’s tirade and being done until D20 learns how to behave like an adult, blah blah blah. Yep, my XW said this same stuff about our kids and to our kids. It’s pure projection. And of course our MLCer cannot be wrong. They destroy so much for their chance at happiness, and everyone is suppose to be going along with it.
You, D20, and S22 are doing fine. I know you know that. But it is nice to hear it.
Enjoy the Christmas actives and time with the family. All my best.
DnJ