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Posted By: Hamburg Last stages of divorce - 04/20/19 02:59 PM
Prior threads

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825219&page=1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2825222

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2834885#Post2834885

Married 13 y, 2 young kids.
BD jan 2018. We sort things out. Jan 2018 EA starts with a lowlife. July 2018 BD that basically ends M. D filed july 18. Reconciliation from Sept to Oct. EA turns to PA. I move out, PA now in full force, now past temporary orders phase, mediation upcoming.

W now begging not to use Attys, mediation and doing this ourselves, no way I can let that happen. She almost blew the sale of the home over $500. I had to pay her off in order to sign. Shes forcing OM upon family, only further driving them away. She has alienated herself from them and I maintain close relationships with her parents and siblings, being the only contact between them and the kids. D is in the discovery process, which can take some time. She is begging to do this ASAP and is suing me for a large sum for Atty fees because I'm "dragging it on." We don't even have discovery records or depositions yet.

I am doing well. Picking up extra shifts at work, hitting the gym and pouring myself into the kids. They are doing ok, I am in close contact with their counselor and make sure we are on the same page. We have a blast during my possession times. W continues to badmouth me to them so there is a bit of cleanup and explanations during my time. Oldest has several tardies during W possession time, on the order of 20+ minutes each time. Child is very upset by it.

In the meantime I have found a wonderful lady to spend some time with. We've known each other for quite some time and she is freshly divorced. Definitely taking time with it but it is amazing how refreshing a sane person can be. I've dabbled in a few "unhealthy" people who were just latches to prevent me from being lonely. I am past that point now. Detachment has gone well. It came in phases and I feel like a different person.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 04/20/19 03:28 PM
Good Morning Hamburg

When I first read that W almost blew the house sale over $500, yeah emotional MLC. Glad you got it done and over.

I can see your detachment, and yes you are a different person, or uncovering who you lost for a while. Well done.

Keep being the sane stable parent. They need you.

You got this.

DnJ
Posted By: JNicolas Re: Last stages of divorce - 04/26/19 01:28 AM
Hi Hamburg!

Good to hear about the new lady and how it's refreshing! Props to you!

JN
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 04/29/19 03:49 AM
Well, D is still going as planned. She is taking me to court for her moving expenses and some other things. She is flat broke. Called her dad for money. For the first time in her life he said no. She then called brother, sister and parents and told then they weren't allowed to talk to me. Each of them told her I will always be a part of their lives and she cannot control this.

It is a nice feeling but I sincerely hope she can mend those relationships one day
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 04/29/19 08:31 PM
H

Many a mcler seem to head in the same direction
even after being here for 12 years now on this site- I see it over and again

Its like a mental illness that overtakes them-
My XH did also and still remains in neverland-

Just make sure the kids are ok-
I cant see the Mlcer being anywhere capable of parenting-
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/03/19 03:54 AM
W reached out and is being nice. We talked about D stuff. She essentially asked for unreasonable stuff at first. Then she had a mini meltdown, admitted she's an emotional wreck and caved to my demands.
She found out I have found someone and said she's happy for me and wishes the best. I guess this decreases guilt on her part?

L said i will prob not get full custody, so we are peeling back from the scorched earth approach. It will save me some serious money. That's the only reason I was using that approach. So things should be final here in a few weeks. Its bittersweet.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/03/19 07:24 PM
That's good H
Less drama the better

Its also good that she is OK with your new relationship
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/06/19 03:50 AM
W reached out again. She had to pack up the house and admitted to me she's not doing well. She stated it was so difficult and the memories are painful to replay in her head. "A lifetime in boxes" is how she stated it. This is the first time in almost a year she has opened up to me about this stuff. I didn't pry and kept my cool. We also joked about some memories and spoke of things like old times. She also realizes the financial impact of her future. Now, I tried to think that was the reason for her opening up. But in recent past, she has been nice for a short time, got what she needed, then turned back into a monster. None of those conversations were like this. I continue to keep my guard up. For the record, i would not take her back. I pray for her eventual clarity to restore her relationship with her family.

Regarding me, I have found a wonderful woman. I find as time goes on and we get closer, it is more difficult to forget the past. Things are going really well and i hope we can continue.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/06/19 04:03 AM
Hamburg, I don't know if I missed something, but didn't your wife's MLC just start last year? This all seems to be moving so fast.

I would just caution you about falling in love with someone new when it has not even been a year. Your W threw everything away so quickly because she is not in her right mind. I would caution you about throwing everything away so quickly too! Even if you don't have any interest in restoring your M (and of course because I am Gerda, I would always encourage you to keep that door open!), I think it's really fast to start up with someone else.

I know I may seem like the nun around here, but I have had many temptations in the six years since BD. I know what it is like to feel that balm of attention and admiration and comfort and even seeds of love from someone else.

Whatever you choose for your future, you want to be whole and healed if you are going to have a new marriage (with someone new or with a restored W). It will be hard to truly heal if you jump quickly into something else. It soothes the wound and the pride for sure, it is a wonderful distraction, but it can be just as dangerous for you and for a new person in the long run if you don't fully heal first.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/06/19 04:22 AM
BD1 was 18 months ago and BD 2 (the big one) was almost 1 year ago. I am taking extreme caution and moving slowly. She is divorced as well so those feelings are mutual. I've gone through a few of the "relationships" to pass the time and knew they were unhealthy but stayed around because i had no other options. I'll be frank, in my position I have women constantly throwing themselves at me. As with you, temptation is hard to overcome sometimes. I've dodged several bullets and know what to look for in a person.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not fully healed and know it will take time. I'm not going to jump into anything serious too quickly. I have to focus on myself and my young children.

Nun or not, you give excellent advice and you are a pro. Your words are always appreciated. Thank you!
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/07/19 12:10 PM
Met with W for about 3 hours last night. I put kids to bed at her house and then we had some wine. This is how it went

She admitted "situational" depression. But also talked about how bad her childhood was. She packed many belongings over the weekend and said she hit rock bottom. She saw a Facebook pic of our daughter from 4 years ago and lost control at work she admitted alienating herself from family and it cut deep, especially since they think i walk on water.

I told her she became a monster and impossible to deal with. She owned up to it and knows she will need more counseling. She wants me as a friend and I was hesitant to answer. She knows this will take a long time to heal from

She knows she is financially ruined and did not ask me for any help. Shes had friends help her with moving expenses.

We talked about moving on and she is still head over heels for OM. Saying he doesn't have money but quit doing drugs, got a job and fills her emotional needs. He has helped her emotionally through this journey and feels most men would have run away by this point. Marriage/moving in together is not on the table at this point. She is happy for me as well

We embraced, held hands and shared many tears. We almost kissed but she pulled back. She apologized for break up of the M and I admitted my part as well. She hasn't had time to miss me because of how volatile it has been, but has missed some things up to this point. She feels bad for the kids and lost it when we talked about them.

It seemed the most genuine talk we've had in over a year. She wants to continue talks and told me she wants me to be there for her emotionally. I am conflicted.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/07/19 01:09 PM
I would be cautious with your emotions--

Certainly being cordial, friendly and helpful is a good thing

I just don't trust she will stick with her growth, only because of the poor success rate we generally see in MLC,
and she is in love with a man who will probably impair her growth because stopping drugs for a moment may be easy But the success rate for complete lifetime recovery for drugs/alcohol is also very low-

I would be curious to see if she continuously follows through in therapy-
or a 12 step program
that may be a good indicator
because doing this work on your own will be impossible-in my opinion

If she seems to be growing in a positive way that is great, but she is still with OM-
tough choice for you-

Could you accept her friendship, so you can keep a good eye on her situation especially for the kids-
as you move forward with your life
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/07/19 01:59 PM
IDK how friendly I can be. On the one hand I want to be there for her emotionally and help her. On the other, I need to continue moving on. Being friends with my ex likely won't go over well with future partners. It's a tough spot.

Regarding the drugs, she gave OM a task list of things he needed to change in order to be with her. She is definitely the dominant one in that relationship.
Posted By: MarvinF Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/07/19 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Hamburg
IDK how friendly I can be. On the one hand I want to be there for her emotionally and help her. On the other, I need to continue moving on. Being friends with my ex likely won't go over well with future partners. It's a tough spot.

Regarding the drugs, she gave OM a task list of things he needed to change in order to be with her. She is definitely the dominant one in that relationship.


That part seems a very common trait of MLC relationships, they seem to need someone "lesser."

This is very hard, you have my sympathies. Obviously first and foremost you must do what is right for you and your kids over her well being (put on your oxygen mask first as they say). IF you can stay detached and be a casual friend it may help her (but its really not up to you, its up to her) and MAY slightly help if you have any hopes of reconciling. But first part still applies: do what is best for you and the kids.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/07/19 06:13 PM
Quote
she is still head over heels for OM. Saying he doesn't have money but quit doing drugs, got a job and fills her emotional needs


Omg, she doesn't understand a thing about addiction, does she? 12 step programs almost always suggest no new relationships in the first 6 months (or is it a year?) of sobriety. Doesn't sound like this guy is working any kind of a program which means he's high risk to relapse. Do you know what KIND of drugs he was doing?
Posted By: devvo Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/08/19 12:16 AM
Statistically, it seems her relationship with OM is unlikely to survive and maybe she instinctively knows this. Whilst it seems likely that it's only emotional support and a cordial co-parenting relationship that she wants with you, perhaps she's also looking for a Plan B?
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/08/19 01:04 AM
I'll admit this threw me for a loop. I had distanced myself so far from her. She (at least for about a week) has been the person she was 5 years ago. She admitted fault, had clarity, didn't defend herself when attacked/blamed and then told me she loved me.....as a person but fell out of love with me long ago. We openly talked about sex, relationships, etc... without getting too emotional. She finally apologized for what she did and admitted she was an irrational monster. Said OM has her heart and is there emotionally for her, something she didnt feel with me because I was working so much. Shes never done it on her own and that brings her great fear. I told her I would keep an open door, but would take a firm plan on her part of she wanted to come back. It is nuts how these feelings come back with so much force.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/10/19 10:27 PM
Something is going on with the men of this board this week! You, Tad and even SBJ are beating yourself up for being "weak" when your heart feels love for your W.

Feeling love for your W is good and true!

I would have no expectations of her either, but I dream of my H saying those things, even in cycles of boomerangs.

I think it shows how confused she is.

And I assure you that her relationship is not going to last. That relationship is built on lies and other sorts of sand. It will crumble at some point.

It's just a question of your being willing to keep your heart open when that day comes.

It could be another long while. You might not want to wait.

I encourage you to keep being kind to her and to keep a corner of your heart open.

As a woman, I can imagine some of how she feels. It sounds like you do work a lot and, if you are facing the insecurities of midlife, it could be very difficult to be married to a powerful and accomplished doctor who openly admits that in his work, women are constantly throwing themselves at him. It stung my heart even to read that as someone who doesn't really know you!

Her MLC has nothing to do with you. But her feeling neglected during your M could be valid. It's something to explore and reflect on as you work on yourself, whether you end up married to someone else or her one day. Just my thought as a woman. My H is clearly out of his mind and is wicked to me. But I still spent a lot of time evaluating the mistakes I made and I hope I can be a better wife/person one day.

And by the way, thank you for the very kind words you wrote to me. It really meant so much to me that you valued my perspective.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/10/19 11:30 PM
I think the weakness aspect is that I felt so distant and I had to be at odds with her in order to get there. It feels like backtracking in a way. We continue to communicate and make jokes and laugh. I've stopped the emotional stuff.

Things that stuck with me were her saying
-I haven't had time to miss you because I've been so mad
-i dont need money. I am happy with someone who has nothing and is poor. (She's had means her entire life)
-I am so happy with OM. Later x2: I am just content
-when I said I will keep an open heart and mind she said she understands and did not shut it down.
-her apology to me and the kids

And yes my work schedule has always been a topic of my internal conflict. Regarding the nurses, we openly talked about this during the M. It probably doesn't help that I am dating one now. BUT it is easy to spot gold diggers and I do not want any part of that. I have noted my mistakes and openly admitted those to W the other night.

Thanks for your help here!
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/12/19 08:17 PM
no new relationships for 1 year KML ...
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/12/19 08:44 PM
Remember, Hamburg, believe none of what she says and very little of what she does. You are so early in this thing. I assure you that that relationship she says that about is counterfeit. She even sounds like a silly little teenager in what she is saying about it.

You may not want to wait it out, you may not want to get over how much she hurt you in this time, but nothing of what she is saying or doing should be taken at face value. The effects of it are devastating to your life and your kids' lives, and you have to deal with that and pick up the pieces, but there is no real truth to it, in terms of lasting Truth with a capital T. All that she told you about remorse and all that stuff, well, that is amazing. Hold on to that. No expectations but keep it in a little box in your heart. Many of us have never gotten those words.

As far as the nurses wanting the doctors -- I have to say, what I meant has nothing to do with gold diggers. I am not talking about that. I can't imagine any rock solid woman, rich or poor, gold-digging or not, who would be ready to start a serious relationship with a man as recently separated as you are. I have no idea about the gold digging aspect of things but I think that's irrelevant from your perspective (though perhaps not from the nurses' perspectives). I'm only saying how I feel as a woman imagining how hard it would be to be married to a man who was getting that kind of attention every single day at work, especially if I felt he was neglecting the family by working such long hours. I carry myself at work in a way that shows a very closed door to that kind of attention and no one gives that to me. I carry myself a bit differently in other contexts lately and I get a lot of attention, about which I feel very guilty though I enjoy it in the moment, so I very clearly see the difference in terms of what I am inviting and legitimizing by how receptive I am. Her MLC is not your fault in any way but I would just encourage you to really think about that for whoever you end up with later. Most of all I am always so impressed by your kindness and openness and what a great dad you seem to be. In this one area I could really imagine how your W might have felt if she were just a regular woman and not losing her mind because of MLC.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 05/17/19 06:06 PM
So the raw emotional stuff lasted a few days. Now things are back to occasional jokes and day to day stuff. There was a point she told me to stop that kind of stuff but now is reciprocating.

Had PreK graduation this morning. She was late (of course) and chose to sit next to me. She tried to make small talk, I just looked forward, avoiding eye contact and answered a few questions. She had something for me afterwards and wanted me to come to her car to get it, I declined. We exchanged kids bags later in the day and she wanted to stay around and talk, but I left. I can't let myself get involved as a friend at this time.

She has one week left in the home of our dreams, something I worked for years to obtain. Her garage sale is tomorrow and she is selling some family heirloom furniture and glassware. I offered to buy but she declined to let me. I feel she will regret it one day.

I have the kids this weekend. We have another action packed weekend in the making, as long as weather cooperates. And have another birthday soon so I will be planning that myself.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/01/19 08:04 PM
Update. Had a few blowouts over the past couple of weeks. It seems her projection has taken new heights.

She and kids moved out. They went from a large home to a small home with 2 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. At least it is in a safe area. I have been out for 6 months.

The house closed without any problems and I am debt free. It's an amazing feeling.

Now we negotiate final decree via our attorneys. Hopefully will be done by the end of the week. If that fails there is a formal mediation in 2 weeks.

Kids are doing well and out for summer. I have a fun time planned but W encouraged me not to do anything extravagant with the kids, as it creates false expectations. Whatever that means....
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/02/19 11:37 AM
Glad the house closed w/o any problems. Yes, it is an amazing feeling when you become debt free. You can rest easier knowing that your children are in a safe area and are now relocated into another home. I hope it's close to where you are living.

Enjoy your summer w/your children. I know that you will have plenty of activities planned for them.

Good luck w/the final decree.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/06/19 01:38 AM
Supposed to start negotiating final decree via lawyers today. My L calls and says W got new representation. Word is, W was tired of the non responsiveness of old L. She put up with it for 9 months and now suddenly changes? I cannot help but think this is a stalling technique. Her new L practices in 3 areas of law, and does not focus solely on family law. And this is someone who was so ready to end it all quickly.
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/06/19 10:45 AM
It could very well be a stall tactic, but my money is on the lawyer advising her to get someone else to represent her. Lawyers get fed up w/MLCers who can't make up their minds and won't/don't listen to their advice.

My xh did the same thing at the very end, just before finalizing the decree. My lawyer continued to move forward and we didn't lose much time until our day in court.

Continue moving forward as much as you can w/this latest development.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/06/19 05:23 PM
Or sometimes they change lawyers if the lawyer isn't telling them what they want to hear. MLCers often have very unreasonable expectations about the financial outcomes of divorce and a good lawyer will tell them when they're being unreasonable.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/12/19 04:12 PM
Well, it appears to be a stall tactic. She found herself a shyster who is pulling all the stops.......irrationally. She wants completely unreasonable terms and now will ask for more temporary support, and stalling formal mediation. I think this may end up in court. Almost one year later we are no closer to the end.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 02:55 AM
Hello Hamburg

I am following along, reading the updates and watching the turns and twists.

You are doing amazingly well, and sound really good. Grounded, stable. Oh and debt free. Yay!

W’s latest stall tactic, the lawyer change, is another twist in the path. Keep taking them in stride, your doing fine.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 09:19 PM
IT'S OVER!!!!!!

met for mediation this am. It was an uphill battle but after some work, we finalized the D.

She initially held out on the custody but in the end I got the 50/50 I wanted. Had to pay a large lump some of cash but totally worth it! It cost less than going to court and risking NOT getting 50/50.

It's bittersweet but a huge burden has been lifted from me.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 09:33 PM
Hooray! My divorce wasn't even particularly contentious but I felt like throwing a party when it was done! Not because I wanted the divorce - I didn't - but because I was so darned happy to be done with the process!
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 09:45 PM
Congratulations Hamburg! Thankfully my XH and I did not need to go the court route. Everything is done on my end except the final decree which should come at some point soon. I know exactly what you mean about it being bittersweet. Initially it is not what any of us who come on here wanted but it is the fate of many of us. The best thing to do is to make sure that you and your kids' health and safety needs are taken care of and then get to a place of acceptance and move forward. To do anything else is just prolonging the pain. I, too, feel like a huge weight has been lifted and am looking forward to building a new life. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 09:59 PM
Congratulations on getting the divorce done today. I know it's been an up hill battle...but you will feel so much better and that awful weight will be lifted off your shoulders and now, the next chapter of your life begins.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 11:31 PM
Congratulations Hamburg

Well how about that. She settled and was even a bit reasonable.

To have that weight lifted off of you is a very good feeling.

Glad things didn’t get dragged out.

DnJ
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/13/19 11:46 PM
Im happy for you H

I know its a big relief
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/14/19 01:56 PM
It's a strange feeling, to say the least. I am single for the first time in 16 years. I thought I would be more upset, but it's more if a numb feeling. The past 11 months have been filled with a whirlwind of emotions, planning, moving on and wondering about the next step.

I have informed the kids in a gentle way. They are excited to spend more time with me (50/50 vs exp standard). I cannot explain how important that is to me. She stonewalled at first, but money was motivating to her.

Her parents reached out to me. They all had another catastrophic blowout and are not sure if they will ever speak again. They have invited me to visit them with the kids (they live out of town). I am planning a trip for next month.

She has enough money to be taken care of for a while. I hope she is cautious with it. I still care for her and hope she is ok. I have always pictured her coming back and apologizing. That would at least bring some closure. The mediator said to expect that when the money runs out. We shall see.

Kids and I are going on a short trip this weekend. This will be the first overnight trip we have taken somewhere as a single parent family.
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/14/19 02:35 PM
It will take some time to get over that "strange/numb" feeling. After all, your emotions were on "very high" alert for quite some time and now that it is over a done with...your body needs to readjust and calm itself down.

I think it's great that her parents have reached out to you. They probably do not understand everything that went down, but they are very much aware that their daughter went a bit over the top emotionally and has done quite a few things that were not normal for her. I would enjoy my time w/the parents, but try not to share too much of what went down between the two of you.

As for her apologizing, well, she may or may not do so. They tend to apologize in a half @ss way and sometimes it does not sound sincere. You will not get the closure that you are looking for from her, but you will find closure in your own time as you forgive her along the way. When the money runs out, she'll be back trying to play the victim and poor me card to get more from you and do not be surprised if she uses the kids as the main reason for needing additional fund.

I hope that you and the kids enjoy your short trip. All of you need this time to unwind and just relax.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/16/19 01:58 PM
Good Morning Hamburg

Single - a strange feeling indeed.

You are spot on about being numb. We do worry that will we be upset and things will be so much worst than they actually turn out to be. Once the divorce is final, that’s it - no more worry - all those feelings have nothing to gain purchase too within you. Pretty strange at first. It does take time to settle in to your new normal.

You now have first hand experience seeing how emotions get uncoupled from a future event. The irrational has nothing to hold on to anymore. See this, understand this, and apply it to other areas in your life; the fears.

This doesn’t remove feelings, in fact quite the opposite. It brings about acceptance, removes paralysis, and ushers in such a freedom and forgiveness. You feel more, and it doesn’t hurt.

Have a wonderful Father’s Day. Enjoy your weekend trip with the kids.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/27/19 09:19 PM
So the ink has yet to dry (in fact, a judge has not signed yet) and W already reintroduced the kids to OM. For those unfamiliar, he is of poor quality. Formerly on drugs, no job, arrest for domestic assault, lives with his parents. Per our tear-filled chat about 6 weeks ago she swore to wait 3 months or so. It stings really badly. She is on a path of destruction that was modeled in her childhood and remains in complete denial about it. I have not spoken to her about it at this point. Need advice on how to handle this one.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/27/19 09:43 PM
None of them ever keep their word about not introducing the OP to the kids. Unless you can get a court order forbidding it you are wasting your time.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/27/19 10:12 PM
Hello Hamburg

As kml said, without a court order there is really nothing you can do about W, OM, and the kids.

Attempting to reason with her, make an arrangement, or alike, is futile; and most likely will be used against you. I am sorry to say it is best to just save your breath.

If the children are being mistreated or such, then most definitely get involved and get legal protection. Most MLCers do not get to that point. However, quite a few do try to limit their responsibilities, which includes the children. What was the custody settlement?

Hamburg, the pain and sting does pass, fades out of the everyday, and even out of recollection. You are getting closer every step, and every day.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/27/19 11:45 PM
Thanks guys. Custody is 50/50. At least I have that. I had a restraining order temporarily but it's too difficult to get in a final decree. I guess time will only tell. W had always said her dad was her rock and foundation as her mother jumped from man to man for 25+ years. I suppose the cycle will just continue.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/28/19 12:55 PM
Good Morning Hamburg

You are correct - time will tell.

However:

Originally Posted by Hamburg
I suppose the cycle will just continue.


No! That’s BS!

For STBXW, yes she is a crisis. She is caught up in this cycle, which started long ago during her upbringing. She has to go through it.

What about your kids?

You can break the cycle Hamburg.

A crisis is caused from long ago trauma(s), events that the MLCer was incapable of understanding or accepting and therefore internalized and took on the blame. They blamed themselves for what happened with, or from, that person of authority in their young lives.

My last post I told you to save your breath trying to keep kids from W and OM. Any attempt at controlling STBXW is futile.

So what can you do?

You focus on you and the kids.

Be the best Dad possible. Ensure that your children understand that they are not responsible for their Mom’s crazy behaviours. How? Talk to them. Explain MLC. Give them an understanding, a reason, an acceptance, of what is happening and happened. Show them it is not their fault! Break the cycle.

You do not demonize STBXW, or talk bad about her, or belittle, or talk down, etc. - your kids are half made up of her. They will already wonder if what Mom is doing is inescapable, you know genetic, in their blood kind of thinking. Kids know they have the traits of their parents, they need to understand.

MLC is emotionally driven right from the start. An emotional trauma, something the young person could not yet understand or accept stunted them, damaged them and started their path.

Emotions are irrational, the “reasoning” and “understanding” that a young person will create to explain this will be irrational. This incorrect assuming of guilt, shame, and blame is incorrect - to us. However to a young person unable to articulate what they are feeling, it is very real, and gets push down into themselves. It will surface - later.

Break the cycle.

Your kids healing, understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, starts with and flows from you. Is demonstrated by you. Be the best Hamburg you will be! Not can be - will be! Make it happen.

Harsh reality time. Sorry.

The OM is a man of significance in the kids’ Mom’s life.

You and the kids don’t have to like it. You and the kids don’t have to condone it.

You and the kids do have to accept it.

Understanding, compassion, empathy, acceptance, forgiveness.

You have custody half of the time. Focus on you and your kids. Raise them well. Teach them well. It only takes one strong stable parent.

The cycle can be broken. Believe it.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/28/19 04:17 PM
Thanks DNJ.

What I meant was the cycle will continue on W's part.

The kids and I always have fun. We recently had our first trip as a one parent family and it went well. We are going to the beach in a few weeks. It was difficult but I can handle it. During moms time this summer they go to a school-sponsored day care program. On my time I keep them with me. The sad thing is, they don't like their moms new house, nor do they want to go back with her every other week. She blames me for setting "false expectations" because I'm financially set and can take them to do anything they want. However, we do many things that don't cost any money and get quality bonding time. I work 16 shifts per month and get kids during my off weeks, so I've put my personal life on hold.

They are in counseling once per week. Per W counselor said they are doing well and can go to twice monthly sessions. This is coincidentally when W has to start paying half the cost. Counselor has not informed me of this. I offered to pay full cost indefinitely but the judge said no (non covered medical expense). We had a deal to inform counselor ahead of time as to when we would introduce new romantic interest to the kids. This would give them a month or so to focus on that. We go back next week and I plan on informing her that OM has been around kids and we need to discuss with kids. I dont think that an arbitrary time when the papers are signed is a signal to drop back on counseling. They will need it for quite some time. I wouldn't know how to explain W confused state to the kids, but will talk to counselor about it.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/28/19 05:24 PM
Hello Hamburg

I am sorry for any misunderstanding. I know you are not referring to your kids when speaking of the cyclic appearance of MLC. I understand you were referring to W’s journey.

And that is more of what my post is about. Hamburg is going to do whatever he can to stop this from continuing.

Forgive me for the forceful encouragement. I find that words have an almost innocuous way of getting into our heads and hearts. They then compound, and add, which eventually affects one’s perception.

I like the words - The cycle will not continue.

I think you are doing very well and a wonderful job with your kids. Much respect.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/28/19 05:41 PM
No offense taken at all. The one thing W did not have as a child was counseling or split custody. Her counselor later in life was chosen by her mom and was a friend from church, someone who probably couldn't remain objective. Her father had always been her rock and the man has a heart of gold. They are now not speaking. I can't let that happen. I will not let this cycle continue for my children.

As for forceful encouragement:
One day while lamenting, my SIL called me, yelling at me and said

"Take your b*lls out of her purse, stand up for yourself and be a man."

Something clicked inside me and I've been a different person since. It was then I started to get self confidence back and realized how much control W had over my emotions. Sometimes this type of encouragement is needed.

Thank you for all you've helped me with here.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 06/29/19 12:19 PM
Good Morning Hamburg

SIL’s comments. smile Spot on, wasn’t she.

We left behind husbands get so meek, timid, and scared. Eventually confidence starts to return and our self control is regained. It is surprising how much we gave away.

Have a good day my friend.

DnJ
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/08/19 06:20 AM
Hamburg, I was wondering about something, since you are a doctor.

Why isn't MLC written about in the world of psychiatry? It seems very clear that this is "a thing." All our spouses appear to be following a script -- granted, with some improvisations on that script. They all have the same thing happening at around the same time of life in the same way, they say the same things, do the same things, and most have a trajectory that is predictable. The time table varies, but it's still pretty consistent as far as what happens during that time table.

I asked a therapist about this once and she seemed to think I was being silly.

Surely many many MLCers and LBS's alike are consulting people in the medical world, surely mental health professionals are seeing the patterns.

A friend told me that my H had "involutionary psychosis." I looked that up and it seemed pretty close, actually. But was not written about in the clear way we all now know MLC.

Why isn't MLC recognized in the medical world?

Did you believe in it or only after it happened to you? What would you say to colleagues about it now, as a doctor?
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/09/19 03:14 AM
Hello Gerda,

I am in a field of medicine far removed from psychitric care, but will attempt to answer.
I do know that we are trained to accept things that have been well studied and published. I do have a few friends who are psychiatrists (MD/DO) who do believe in MLC and have dealt with it. Some, however, do go strictly by a diagnostic book called DSM 5, and refute anything not addressed there. I do not think MLC is a diagnosis in there.

Psychologists and counselors (PhD or LMSW, etc) are a mixed bag. IMO they tend to get to the root of problems and address them individually. In the case of MLC address childhood trauma and depression separately. My W's counselor told her to do what makes her feel happy and issues will be dealt with down the road. Our kid's counselor believes in MLC and told W to seek more help.

I am trained to take a group of problems and find a common link (cough, fever, chills = pneumonia). On the other hand, a counselor/psychologist would be trained to look at these individually. This is just my guess.

I did believe, as do many of my medical friends. However, it is stigmatized as a man going out and buying a shiny red convertible and running off with a hot blonde with double D's. I had no idea about my W's MLC until I started to piece together all of the elements and researching the stages. This is why most of my medical friends believe--we can trace all of this to one common diagnosis. I think if it were common knowledge that they exhibit behaviors as mentioned on these boards it would be much more understood and accepted by the psychological community.

The colleagues I have confided in all say the same thing......she needs serious psychological help. It's surprising how many of them have known someone in MLC. I think one day it will be officially accepted. It will just take mountains to be moved after decades of little recognition.

Hope this helps
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/09/19 04:16 PM
And let's face it, lots of doctors have MLCs (perfect setup - money and prestige, youth spent being a nerd, working surrounded by young adoring nurses - some of whom also see them as a meal ticket) so why would they want to admit it's a disease??? I know my ex would be insulted at the thought.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/10/19 04:48 PM
So the kids tell me they saw OM and his family on the 4th of july. He played with them in the pool, which obviously involved touching them. It doesn't sit well with me. I don't think there is much I can do about it.

It is very upsetting.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/10/19 07:33 PM
H

sorry-That is a difficult situation-

I would consider asking the L for advice to see if anything at all-can be done
Im sure you probably have done that-

I forget his back round, but I know he like many affair partners has a dark one

I would just research and keep a close eye or try talking to XW and keep communication open with the kids
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/10/19 09:20 PM
Background

Worked for me and W for 2 years. Drugs, arrest for domestic assault, lives with parents-who seem to be accepting of all this, no job, sovereign citizen anti government type. Of course I was unaware of this at the time. Only legal advice I got was to take her back to court for custody if she marries him. With simply dating there is nothing I can do. I tried for restraining order and custody but was turned down.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/13/19 05:51 AM
Hamburg,thank you for writing all that about MLC and doctors. Very interesting. And you write about it with real clarity and truth. Maybe one day you can write an article about it, like that page in the NYTimes where doctors write a sort of first-person narrative about a medical situation.

Have you ever read A Country Doctor's Notebook by Bulgakov? It's one of my favorites, I think you would like it! I also love this story so much and often teach it --

http://www.online-literature.com/anton_chekhov/1293/

If link gets erased, it's "A Doctor's Visit" by Anton Chekhov.

And as far as what you just wrote about OM. WOW. Not surprising but so awful, so gross, so low. No wonder you were so shocked and so hopeless. On the other hand, it is obviously only a matter a time before that ends. It's so clear what that is all about, so classic MLC. The only question is how many years it will take, and if she will heal afterwards.

And I hear you on the inability to get anything reasonable done via the courts. They seem to only want to step in when there is physical violence or drugs or arrests. But maybe your W will enable that, dating a man like that!

I can imagine how painful it was for you to see that. But at least you know it's not about you. She is doing the classic down-trade of the MLC-er.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/24/19 03:48 AM
Last week, I left the kids with a female friend while I was at work. The kids had a blast and my youngest asked the sitter to be her mommy. They opened up to her, stating their dismay with my W. She is always too busy to give them any time and the kids feel neglected. It is quite sad. Upon dropping the kids off to W, the youngest threw a tantrum for several hours. They seem to not like W. Then I got a nasty email from W about it all.....wanting to meet the nanny, how I should have told her about the arrangements and I should drop them off at daycare in the am, rather than directly to her in the afternoon. She feels that will allow the kids space for the day and not get so emotional.

I responded, holding nothing back and explaining how the kids do not like being with her and what I do with them on my time is my business only. The last day of visitation is MY time and I am not dropping the children at a daycare which they hate. Her reply stated I need to step up my game and attend school functions this year. And, I need to return the kids vitamins they took over to my place about 3 months ago. I wish I could just email back a facepalm emoji but I did not respond. Her control is slipping and she hates it. For the record, I am not attempting to reconcile and think it will be a great amount of time before we are on speaking terms. Her parents reached out to me and I am taking the kids to see them (they live out of town) in 2 weeks.

So still waiting on the judge to sign the final decree. Its been about 6 weeks. It has been exactly 1 year since BD 2 and the beginning of the destruction. I have come a long way and grateful for you guys here. I don't think I would have made it emotionally this far without y'all.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/24/19 06:03 AM
Wow. That's just not normal for your kids to be asking the sitter to be their mom. Do you need to involve child protective services? WTH is going on over there when she has the kids?

Really, that's the first time I've read that on these boards and it scares me.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/24/19 11:45 AM
H

I like the way you handle her
Once our emotions are put of the picture..no more walking on eggshells to please the wounded MLCer souls

just truth and sometimes truth is hard to hear

she is probably a terrible parent at this time...thing is she will only resent you telling her as she does not sound ready for the inner work it takes to heal-
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 01:33 PM
You are so lucky that the grandparents want to be in your life! My MIL told me she wanted nothing to do with me ever again, after being in my life for 25 years. I kept bringing the kids to see them throughout this time when I could afford it, though she started pulling back just after BD because she couldn't bear to watch what was happening. Now I guess H has told her so many lies she is blaming me for everything. It hurt almost more than BD, and it is so awful for the kids!

BTW, I don't think it's unusual about your kids asking her to be their mom. They are little kids looking for solutions. My son won't talk to my H at all. Your kids are just too small to have any say in it. I would not call protective services, but I would invest in a guardian ad litem for the kids. You can hire someone to do that -- I only didn't because I have no money! But that person will spend time at both households and make recommendations. You might get more custody. Or s/he might just be able to get your W to check some of her words and behavior.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 03:31 PM
Gerda,

I feel extremely blessed my in laws are part of my life. W has basically abandoned them. W blames me for telling them she was on drugs, which is untrue. They saw her try and make OM part of their life months before we even talked about divorce. They had met him on several occasions (while still married) and they do not like him at all. After separation, she claimed I was keeping money from her, then turns around and shows them about $10k in new furniture she bought. Then she gave them an ultimatum: they accept she, OM and kids as a package deal or would not get to see the kids. The final straw was my daughter's birthday party. Her parents mingled with everyone. W came late, walked past her brothers family without saying a word. Later, she left for 30 minutes and returned. At the end, she stole a gift so she could keep it at her house. She and her parents had a catastrophic blowout later that day and have not spoken in months.

To add fuel to the fire, W cousin has injected her opinion that family should back my W and not me. It has turned a big portion of the extended family against my in laws. I'm sure "facts" are based on W's lies.

I don't know if this situation will ever be repaired.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 06:31 PM
Advice needed:

W suddenly wants to talk with the kids on the phone during my visitation week to "see how they're doing"
She's not done this once in the past 8 months since separation. I have not asked this during her visitation, other than holiday/birthday. I feel she's only trying to probe. At the visitation exchange last week, she kept asking me questions if we were going to travel, who we would be with and what we were going to do, etc... I have a feeling it has to do with the new nanny. What should I do here? There is no court order regarding this type of thing.
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 08:45 PM
I am not walking in your shoes, but if I were, I would set a specific time for her to call the kids. I think she's trying to show that she's a good mother by calling them while they are w/you. Her curiosity is up as to what you are doing with them and if there is another person involved.

Time will tell if she's "fishing" for info through the kids.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 09:08 PM
Hello Hamburg

I do believe your STBXW is just reacting and stirring things up.

Having calls during your visitation time depends on the schedule. You say visitation week, and you have 50/50 custody. So, I assume 7 days on and 7 days off. A call in the middle, say Thursday, is not unreasonable. This is exactly the arrangement some people at work have.

If the schedule was like some other friends (gosh, there is a lot of spilt families) a couple of days on then a couple of days off, then there is no need for a visitation phone call, she could wait the 48 hours.

Whatever arrangements she wants, she needs to realize you would also have that right or privilege. Not sure which to call it, since it depending on how cooperative you both can be.

Advice: Talk to the kids. I know they are young, and are upset with Mom. See how they react to the idea of Mom calling them in the middle of their time with you.

She is their Mom, forever. A call from Mom, a call from Dad, during the opposite weeks could be a very good thing for them. You are also there and can see/hear first hand a bit of how she is with them.

I would discuss the idea of allowing a call during the off weeks. She will be talking to them within days anyhow so making her wait isn’t really preventing anything. This arrangement does have benefits for you too.

If you are concerned for your kids welfare, you are beyond the considering of a weekly phone call.

I suspect she will tire of stirring up things if there is no splashing around. Also kids have a fantastic ability to innocently speak the truth, and say if they like someone or not. Mom may not like what she hears that often. Mom may call less or might even change for the better.

Look for a resolution that has good intent and kids’ interests at the heart of it. As long as you are not doing it out of fear, vengeance, or spite; I’m sure you will find a good answer.

All else being equal, I’m for allowing a call.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 09:24 PM
Thanks guys. We get them in 7 day blocks. I already asked the kids and they both said they don't want to talk to her. I will still call and let them chat for a few minutes. They will speak the truth to her about anything she asks.

This week, we have gone to amusement parks, water parks, game center, swam, built massive forts inside my place and I've cooked for them (something I've never really done before). My youngest was even afraid to try a cookie because "it may be better than mommy's". She eventually tried it and loved it. Hopefully W keeps it civil and doesn't lose her cool. She has attempted to get me to do less with them to "level the playing field" so the kids have easier transition back to her. I told her to shove it, politely of course....
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/28/19 09:45 PM
Sounds like a great week. I bet they had a blast, and look at that you are a really good cook. Being the best Dad you can be looks good on you. Well done!

Originally Posted by hamburg
I told her to shove it, politely of course....

Lol.

That’s how it done.

Hmmm. I sense detachment. Level awesome!

DnJ
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/29/19 03:37 AM
If you are still in court, I think you want to always looks like the parent who does everything he can to make sure the kids have contact with W. Especially if you want to try to reduce her custody because of concerns about their safety or emotional well being. So I agree about saying that she can call any day at x time for a few minutes and that you will do the same. I think it is awful if the kids can't talk to you on the phone when they are with her! I got my D a flip phone so she could call me anytime. Maybe you can do that. But if your kids are anxious about her calling, you should set the time so there is not nonstop anxiety about when she calls and how long call will be, etc. My D has that with my H and it's awful but I am lying low because I prefer that to her going to his place, which he is not asking for.

AMAZING that she openly admits that her time with them [censored] and asked you to scale back!!! WOW. The in law stuff sounds awful but remember you are in the beginning of the dark tunnel. It will get better as truths become clearer. If I were you, I would keep inviting everyone, including the cousin, to parties and things at your place. Making all welcome is the best thing for the kids and the best way to keep the family ties going even through the bad times.

I want to encourage you again to get the guardian ad litem. Let that person do all the observing and let the situation speak for itself.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/29/19 04:35 AM
So we are in a strange phase now in which we have formally mediated and just waiting for a judge to sign the decree. It's been 6 weeks, so I am uncertain of the hold up. I suppose (sadly) that there is a large pile of divorce decrees for the judge to comb through.

I will have the kids call W tomorrow afternoon.


I will look in to a guardian as litem. It may be too late, as we have signed our portion.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 07/29/19 11:26 AM
Good Morning Hamburg

The wheels do turn slowly it seems. A judge took 5 months to sign our papers. A long time to sit on pins and needles checking the mail box - I know! Trust there is a good reason for the length of time.

I hope the kid’s phone call goes well.

DnJ
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/02/19 04:40 AM
A good friend of mine who went through a terrible MLC-based divorce (I was a bridesmaid at their wedding) gave me some very good advice, though I haven't truly followed it. It was to see the divorce through as quickly as possible, and then get a guardian ad litem AFTER the divorce. Pay that person yourself and have that person inserted into your lives, advocating for the kids through all the visitation stuff, keeping records, seeing what is best for the kids. I think with a crazy MLC-er, custody issues will keep coming up, and it sounds like you may need to protect your kids from some crazy stuff before your W comes out of it. I didn't have to do 50-50 but if my H ever tries that down the road, I will go for the guardian.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/12/19 03:57 AM
Had my first solo vacation with the kids. Went to a waterpark resort and had a blast! I thought it would be difficult keeping up but it was no problem. Then made some unexpected side trips to some state parks and hiked and went swimming. Those unexpected things are something W would never have done.

Then stayed with my parents in law for 2 days. They were happy to see the kids and welcomed me with open arms. The extended family also visited. One thing was common: they all have disdain for W. It has been a year and I learned of some things that happened while still married. Her parents are lost and very disappointed. They happen to know OM and will never approve of him. They have not spoken to in several months. We are planning another trip to see them in a few months. It was a bit difficult at first, but the aura was like we never left off. They are wonderful people and I am blessed to have them in my life after all that has happened. W does not know yet we visited but I am sure the kids will tell her. We are all prepared for the litany of angry texts from W.
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/12/19 01:07 PM
I am so happy to read that you and the kids had a wonderful time. It's those little unexpected things that make life so enjoyable when you are doing them with those you love.

Glad things went well at the in-laws. Your w cannot control everything that you do w/your kids. She will need to face the consequences of her actions...but that will be down the road a bit.

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/15/19 02:53 AM
Well, the gravity of the visit to the in laws is hitting. I saw her yesterday and she cleaned up a bit and didn't look so strung out. I felt as if I miss her--first time this has hit me in quite some time.

Youngest kid does not like returning to W and threw 3 hour tantrums when going home with her on the past 3 visits. W blames me, of course.

No word yet if she has blasted her parents for allowing me to visit.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/15/19 12:07 PM
Im sure the cleaned up look is just for the moment..on the outside

If anything in her was really changing or she was internally getting things right
I think you will see continuous signs
of a person healing and the children would be happy to go home-to her
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/24/19 09:25 PM
Final decree is just around the corner.

Spoke to a family member. W was livid about me visiting her parents and exploded on the children. Oldest is 8, and she said she won't repeat what she was told by her mom. W also continues to rewrite history and somehow things that happened after our separation have now become her convictions about why she left in the first place.

I thought she would be headed the right direction but the projection, lies and lack of introspect continue. I will do whatever it takes to make sure the children come out of this unharmed. But it is difficult when one party is doing so much damage.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/28/19 03:48 AM
Hamburg, I totally hear you about the kids suffering. For so long I thought H would see that and stop the insanity. That was seven years ago. You will not be able to get them out unharmed. You can only be the one they come to to bandage the wounds, and that will be a huge comfort to them. I am so sorry that is happening. But you just started this journey, I think you have years to go before your W comes out of things like rewriting history or spewing to justify her actions.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 08/28/19 12:46 PM
Sorry H

very tough to witness your kids getting hurt especially by their mother
I have experienced it

if there is anyway you can gain more or full custody, anything you can do
I fought my xh about the kids
Yes they lost a dad, but he and his OW would not have been able to impact them in a positive way

By the kids behavior as time goes on, by their communication, you may be able to see how to help them more

They have you..A stable parent..that also goes a long way
therapy may also help
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 04:13 AM
Been a while. Just checking in.
Still awaiting W to make any changes to the decree. I assume she is hanging on to stay on my insurance benefits.

The kids are doing ok. They are starting to see the differences between she and I. It really puts them in a tough spot. They have opened up to a close friend of mine and really hold disdain for their mom. They're still working with a counselor and I plan on doing that for as long as possible. She continues to be distant from her parents and I am the only means of communication for them and the kids.

One thing has come to light. She is a narcissist. I pieced together behaviors from the past 10 years or so and it is now clear as day. I feel like a fool for not recognizing it earlier. I am not sure if any help will cure her of this, as personality disorders are tough to overcome. We will deal with it the best we can.
..
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 01:29 PM
H

Good that the kids continue with therapy and can begin to see the truth about their mom
awareness is better than denial

Many of these Mlcers I believe have other issues--and you are probably right
about her

Its always better to know what your dealing with-and it is a hard disorder to recognize until
you are really hit with the crazy behavior of a narcissist and combine that with MLC and ....
Posted By: MarvinF Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 02:29 PM
Keep in mind two things:

1) becoming self absorbed/narcissistic is a hallmark of MLC, so definitely try to separate that part. There are narcissists who have MLC and there are MLCers who become narcissists.

2) being a narcissist is not the same as a personality disorder. Reason I say this is that someone who is a narcissist may let that go through therapy and healing one day, but someone who has narcissistic personality the same) can not be “cured,” but they are pretty easy to spot.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 04:26 PM
For years, her siblings have been telling me things about her personality that I kept in separate buckets. Now, after piecing things together (from behaviors I noticed 15 years ago) I do believe she has NPD. Through the process of divorce and MLC, it magnified significantly.
Posted By: MarvinF Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 04:52 PM
Wow if that is the case it must have been very draining for you and the kids, I am so sorry. A true NPD is not capable of empathy or love, and I can imagine what it has been over the years, and yes they can have MLC and their pain level skyrockets.

Take care of yourself and your kids, you will all need recovery time.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/07/19 05:06 PM
It was only after my ex left that I began to see the narcissistic traits that had always been there. It explained a lot about my marriage. He wasn't really a malignant narcissist but it has informed his relationships with our children after the divorce, in a negative way.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 10/08/19 11:34 AM
Good Morning Hamburg

It is nice to see an update from you. To see how much clearly you are seeing things. It is interesting how many subtle clues and slowly ramped behaviours we don’t notice when we were living day to day with our MLCer.

Time apart, does bring clarity. For children as well. Be the safe and secure parent, the one they can always count on. Mom’s behaviours and differences from you, and who she was, and is, in their minds, takes time to acknowledge, reconcile, and accept. Takes time to forgive.

Stay strong and stable. Deal with this the best you can - for all of you.

DnJ
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 06:06 PM
Hello again. Things have been going well. I've been dating for 8 months or so and it is great. We are taking things slowly.

STBXW has started to make progress with her family. They talked and stated they want a relationship but family has no interest in accepting OM into their lives, so that has not changed.

I reached out to say happy thanksgiving and ended up texting her for a few hours. She does not miss me because I havent changed and (according to her) my behaviors have been worse. Strange, in that we have not spoken in 7 months. She wants to meet with me to discuss the children, as the oldest is finally expressing her feelings about this. It took her over a year but grades suddenly slipped and she has been a mess. The kids have been in counseling for a year, so I will bring this up to the counselor.

Strange thing about her wanting to meet is that it "must be face to face so she can look me in the eye." She does not want it via text, email or a phone call. Last time this happened was 6 months ago and it was full of tears and manipulation. I told her out of respect for my relationship I can make a phone call. I was told to grow a sack and I should not have to answer to anybody. It is clearly manipulation but question is, why would she insist on doing this in person and not by other means? I don't even like seeing her when we drop off the kids to each other.
Posted By: kml Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 06:17 PM
Because she wants to try to suck you back in, that’s why. The “behaviors” that bother her are probably that you’re dating. Funny, they don’t want us but they’d really like us to just sit on the shelf as their plan B.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 06:21 PM
It's a power play. As is the suggestion that you need to "grow a sack".

It's much harder to manipulate people at a distance or to tell which tactics are working / not working.

I personally believe that many of our former partners have a hard time dealing with the fact that we're not their property any more.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 07:20 PM
I agree with the others, she wants to twist you up again. Don’t take the bait.

She is immediately blaming you so what’s the point. She sees you aren’t sitting around mopey for her, and her misery wants company.

You probably should listen to what she wants to say regarding the kids. A phone call can work just fine.

Of course I think you’re detached enough to meet her face to face if you want. Face to face works both ways and she will see your boundaries and strengthen and you will see her changes from 7 months ago.

Sorry daughter’s grades are slipping. It’s not uncommon and could be for any number of reasons or factors. It’s good she is seeing an IC to talk through any issues about her Mom.

DnJ
Posted By: LH19 Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 08:01 PM
I say meet her face to face and show strength and that you can’t be manipulated. The “grow a sack” was disrespectful.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/29/19 08:30 PM
Thanks everyone. I will set a boundary with a phone call. I have done well without being manipulated in my life. It is strange how I even entertained the thought. Last time we met, we locked eyes and almost kissed. I can't take any chances with that at this point in my life. Anything that can be said in person can be said over the phone.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/30/19 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by Hamburg
Last time we met, we locked eyes and almost kissed. I can't take any chances with that at this point in my life.


Hi, Hamburg. Despite all the changes I am going through, I don't understand what you are writing here or agree with the advice, even DnJ's. I wasn't going to write anything to rain on the parade but I figure it's good to have some opposite views just to find your own clarity in the midst.

It sounds like you are worried about cheating on someone with your own wife. That is really something to think about-- and, as DnJ says, to examine as your feelings versus your beliefs. I mentioned last year when you started dating your current lady that I would be very reluctant to date a man who was so freshly split up from his wife except as something fun that didn't mean anything, and that I would wonder about why a woman would want to get serious with someone at that point in his journey. No disrespect to your lady; I just mean that there is no way you were healed at that point, and what you say here to me is part of that. If I were your GF and knew you wrote that about your W or even felt that way about her a tiny bit, I would never be able to rest easy as your GF or your future wife.

I don't know if your W is in something temporary or permanent but it sounds to me like you are nowhere near healed, and you are so early in this journey that I guess I would ask you -- what if your W were to come out of it next year, and you could see the old W in her eyes? Would you be confident that you made the right choice to move on so quickly? I am not saying this is going to happen, it might never happen-- but I think your answer has to be extremely confident and you can't still be agonizing over what could happen if you were alone wth her, etc. and be in serious relationship with someone else.

No judgement whatsoever, just offering another view to add to the mix, all out of love and care from Gerda.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 11/30/19 01:37 AM
Thank you for the reply. I am more hesitant because I do have a soft spot for people in distress. I don't want to see anyone in pain, even her. I would not do anything romantic with the ex, I have moved past that. I do think I would succumb to the manipulation and give her what she is after--money, pity, an embrace....who knows. Last time it was money, her asking we fire our lawyers and then she wanted me to pay for kids birthday party--which I would have done anyway. 3 days later she was back to a monster.

As for the GF, we are very open about our ex's. She is aware of what happened before. I also informed her about this and she said to do whatever I need to do. I have had checkpoints throughout this process and know I could never be back with her. Being on my own has shown me a great deal about just how controlled and unhappy I was. The narcissistic patterns are too much to handle. Not to mention, everything else that happened is just too much to grasp and make sense of. I cannot trust her and probably will not be able to for years, even after she snaps out of this.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 04:48 AM
So we have had a bit of texting banter back and forth. We are catching up on what has happened the past 9 months or so. I offered her a ride in my new car at some point, as it is something I have wanted for 10 + years (it is an exotic car). She commented about how many women I must have had in it and "oh, if the seats could talk". She is also very curious if my relationship is serious or not. I skirted the question at first but felt compelled to eventually answer. After I answered she want on and asked if she fulfills me and treats me well. I said yes. STBXW is in a committed relationship but stated she likely will never get married again, and feels monogamous relationships are not part of the human spirit. With all this, I asked why a face to face meeting is so important and felt better about a phone call or email. She already arranged a babysitter and is adamant about coming over. I eventually told her I have moved on and had no interest in a romantic relationship with her and she replied "that hurts."

Later that night, she told me she was lying in bed next to OM. I am at the point where I do not care, but asked how he would feel if he knew she was texting me. She replied he was not aware and has not asked, because she answers to nobody. I frankly asked her if she planned on having her way with me and she has yet to answer. I finally texted her back that we should just talk on the phone and she has yet to respond.

I cannot understand this mind frame. I do want a cordial relationship with her, because it is best for the kids. My friends and I feel she is going to attempt to seduce me to keep me close. I would have been thrilled about this a year ago but not at this point. How do I best handle this?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 10:45 AM
She enjoys playing games with you because she knows you're still on the hook.
Posted By: DnJ Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 12:29 PM
Good Morning Hamburg

She is toying with you. And OM. Not that that OM directly matters, but it does indirectly. She is flirting with you while in bed beside OM. Doesn’t believe in monogamy, etc...

She is looking for a thrill. That forbidden fruit - and you are now forbidden. She knows your buttons, and is pushing them.

Things with OM are obviously not the fantasy and all fulfilling as she imagined they would be. I see her comment “that hurts” as more of a challenge from her to herself; to get you to wanting her again.

Boundaries!

A phone call can cover off whatever she has to say. She has being “talking” to you by text for some time and hasn’t got to whatever it is she wanted to discuss regarding the kids. Get control of the conversations; you are getting pulled in.

I do understand the seeking of the workings of her hurting mind. However, you are not interested in a relationship with her; you are with someone else. So keep things cordial and to the point. Otherwise you could end up to be her EA on her PA.

I’m pretty sure this is stirring up some emotions in you. A perfectly normal response to be wanted again; it would feel pretty wonderful. (I imagine smile )

Catching up on the past 9 months. Offering her a ride in your car. Her pressing for information regarding your relationship, and if seats could talk. This is a slippery slope.

If you want a cordial relationship, for the kids, and coparenting; then keep to that. She can wonder all she wants and beg for a ride in your car. She gave up, threw away, that privilege a while ago.

Cat and mouse can’t be played if one of them ain’t there. And no disrespect, quite the opposite, you are not the cat in this game. She toying with you, and will pounce eventually.

DnJ
Posted By: bttrfly Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by DnJ


She is toying with you. And OM. Not that that OM directly matters, but it does indirectly. She is flirting with you while in bed beside OM. Doesn’t believe in monogamy, etc...

She is looking for a thrill. That forbidden fruit - and you are now forbidden. She knows your buttons, and is pushing them.

Things with OM are obviously not the fantasy and all fulfilling as she imagined they would be. I see her comment “that hurts” as more of a challenge from her to herself; to get you to wanting her again.

Boundaries!

A phone call can cover off whatever she has to say. She has being “talking” to you by text for some time and hasn’t got to whatever it is she wanted to discuss regarding the kids. Get control of the conversations; you are getting pulled in.

I do understand the seeking of the workings of her hurting mind. However, you are not interested in a relationship with her; you are with someone else. So keep things cordial and to the point. Otherwise you could end up to be her EA on her PA.

I’m pretty sure this is stirring up some emotions in you. A perfectly normal response to be wanted again; it would feel pretty wonderful. (I imagine smile )

Catching up on the past 9 months. Offering her a ride in your car. Her pressing for information regarding your relationship, and if seats could talk. This is a slippery slope.

If you want a cordial relationship, for the kids, and coparenting; then keep to that. She can wonder all she wants and beg for a ride in your car. She gave up, threw away, that privilege a while ago.

Cat and mouse can’t be played if one of them ain’t there. And no disrespect, quite the opposite, you are not the cat in this game. She toying with you, and will pounce eventually.

DnJ


Preach it, Brother!
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 01:06 PM
I agree w/all who posted, especially what DnJ posted. She's baiting you and wants to reel you back in. Don't discuss your personal life w/her...it is none of her business and as for a ride in your car....nope. She is seeking the thrill of having two men on the hook and she knows that you have moved on. Keep your conversations short and sweet and on the children and customer/visitation issues.

The less you tell her about yourself and what you are doing, the better. She fired you a while ago as her husband. That means she lost out on knowing your personal business.
Posted By: peacetoday Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 03:02 PM
Hamburg

I agree as well-
she has done no work on herself
and this would ruin your new R--exactly what she wants
She may be with other men as well as sje does not believe in Monogomy
She is a very unsafe bet at this point

I would also suggest
NO ride
No visit
Boundries and less phone calls

She cant pull you in if you dont let her
and if you do it once....there will be probably more and it will be impossible to move into a better, more stable Relationship

she clearly is not well-
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 03:20 PM
Hi, Hamburg -- I agree that W is not ready for any kind of restoration; but all the posts here are focused on what your response will do or not do as far as her behavior.

I still think that the issue here is not her behavior. We know she is ill and a mess right now, we know she will say wicked things and act immorally and that she is not ready for any kind of restoration and that everything she does will be erratic and manipulative and unfocused and that she feels rejected by you even though it's all her fault. Those are all MLC givens until they aren't!

I just still sense in your posts that you enjoy the contact with her and that you are very tempted by her reaching out and maybe even feel strange not responding to her efforts because she was/is your wife. Many here have also talked about the feeling of dating being adulterous when it happened too soon or even when it didn't. So to me the real issue here is your own healing and detachment. I always remember a post in Rejoice Ministries about how the wife did become the "EA" and even the "PA" sometimes, as he began to long to return home. That was something that wife chose to do as part of her vow to her husband, even though here it is considered cakewalking. For her it worked, for others it might lead to horrible heartache and hell. I think it's your choice what you want to allow and do with your wife, as long as you have no expectations. And the best answer for you may be what you are doing now, phone only and no contact with her except about kids while she is still in thick MLC. I would just encourage you to do more reflection/work on yourself as a way to figure out your life rather than using the parameter of one or the other woman in your life to determine what is best for your life and your kids' lives.
Posted By: HaWho Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/04/19 07:25 PM
As you state you don’t want to R, and you are in a committed relationship, my advice is to respond to her in a dignified manner that honors you and your current girlfriend.

I would keep it clean and simple and if it were me, bump her to email (unless it is an emergency in which case she can always text or call). Because that sends a clear message - you are not a priority in my life anymore, you don’t dictate terms and I have zero interest in being seduced/flirting with you. I think she wants to see your eyes to know she still has a hold over you as she certainly does not need to see your eyes to set schedules for the kids.

Something like: “ex, of course I always want to keep the doors of communication open when it comes to our kids. Let’s please move this and future conversations to email but keep it about kids/schedules. If there is anything time sensitive please text or call, otherwise let’s please email.” And I bet you receive no email on this as she is using her kids as bait. Pathetic.

And if she texts you flirtatiously, I would respond in a way you would want your girlfriend to respond if she were getting flirty texts from an ex. She has zero respect for herself and her boyfriend.

You don’t need to tell her about the seriousness of your current relationship, you can show her via your actions.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/05/19 05:10 AM
So it all just hit the fan. She wanted to meet any morning this week. I told her no and we should talk on the phone. She later agreed to do it by phone. I sent her a long text last night, as the divorce will be signed here in a few days. Nothing sentimental or hokey, just that its a sad situation and we need to do what we can for the kids. She responded by saying she agreed, but also that I need to apologize for all the vindictive stuff I have done and she was basically an innocent bystander. Then a short texting battle ensued and I promptly learned she has learned nothing and gone nowhere with her crisis. I eventually informed her to we could talk when she is clear headed and able to have introspect regarding her actions around the kids. For now, we will stick to email and I will respond at my choosing, depending on the content.

I have not heard back, and do not expect to. It felt good to reconnect with her, but now realize it was another touch and go. My kids are slipping from her more than ever the past month or so. They are in counseling, and I do what I can but feel hopeless sometimes. This process is so devastating for everyone involved.
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/06/19 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by Hamburg
This process is so devastating for everyone involved.


That's it in a nutshell. It's so hard to remember that we can't prevent it. I at least don't try to fix my H anymore or even try to imagine him being anything human for now, but I still catch myself all the time trying to fix unfixable things in this process for my kids. I was just thinking about how you are a doctor and must all the time have to treat people who are in pain of one kind or another. Your loving care provides healing but your patients have their own journeys they must take to get through the illness. Just like your kids have their journeys and all you can do is give that loving care.
Posted By: Hamburg Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/12/19 02:59 AM
Well, so much has transpired. W and I had a long phone discussion.

W and OM broke it off. I suppose it lost the luster. I do not know details but she said he was not a good fit for her. She continued to blame me for many of her ills, stated she misses the family unit and her old way of life. She kept asking me why I filed for divorce (1.5 years ago). Now she is refusing to sign the final decree because it is "too emotional" for her.

One wrench in all this.....My GF ex husband located my W, showed up to her home and they have been in contact. They both would love for my relationship with GF to end, so I think there is some sort of plot here to get me to slip. He is a control freak and my wife is threatened that GF has a great relationship with my kids.

This is all too crazy
Posted By: Gerda Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/12/19 05:56 AM
Hamburg, I thought of doing the same thing as your GF's exH did. And of COURSE I am threatened by the OW getting anywhere near my kids. I have had some very dark fantasies about that. Both of those things are extremely natural. Two families are being destroyed by divorce. These events you describe are natural outcomes. I am kind of proud of your GF's H in a way -- he is fighting for his marriage! My H would say I was manipulative, controlling, etc, just like your GF says of him.

The point is, all these people, including you and GF, are HURTING.

The fact that your W caused all of this is not going to be clear to her. She is in MLC. Your wife is still be in MLC but she is confused. That's MLC. That doesn't mean that the part of her that wants to come back is false. Even if she is not ready to come back or even if you really don't want her to (which I am not sure is the case from reading your posts!). I don't think it's fair to see all these events as manipulative. They might indicate that she is not done baking but I don't think you can say it's all false. There are many of us out here who dream of the MLCer saying those things. I even dream of the OW's husband coming to talk to me or going to kick my H's rear. I am not saying those things are good or the right thing to do. But I think they are all natural responses to the horrible mess of breaking up families.

I think you are confused too. Maybe now would be a good time to read Gordie's threads. I see a lot of similarities with your stories. He took a really different approach than yours, and though no story or player in each story is the same, it might give you another perspective to see how his story played out.
Posted By: job Re: Last stages of divorce - 12/12/19 08:23 PM
New Thread:

Amidst a nasty process....reconnection
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