Something there is that doesn't love a wall...

Divorcebusting.com

Mending Wall
BY ROBERT FROST

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbours."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."
_______________________________

This poem has come to my mind quite a bit lately. I guess I'm at a stage where I need to consider my walls and whether they help or hurt me, whether they wall me in or wall me out.

I wanted to cheekily call this thread "After His Divorce" but also didn't want to make light of something that is so painful for so many. The divorce is over, but OD and I are still married. As expected, he did not show to work out everything between us. He did not contact son about his first planned visitation (my guess is, like the book he told D to read, he felt I would be hounding him to sign those papers). So I remembered that he often does these things from fear rather than a desire to tell me I'm insignificant (still have work to do on that self-esteem obviously). So I reached out to him, asked him if he was picking up son, and said the latest he could come, but that I would be here earlier, making it clear that if he wanted to come before to discuss something with me he could. He came at the the last minute to pick up son's new vehicle and drive it to pick him up so they could practice driving.

I had asked him when I saw him in his town almost two weeks before whether that was how he dressed for work. As a reminder, he told me he was working and could not leave said town for our talk. He was dressed very shabbily and looked quite awful. He still had the MLC beard he has been sporting for the last two years. I thought the beard looked neater though and commented to someone that I would believe he was waking up when the beard went bye bye (in the 25 years we spent together he never had facial hair of any kind for even one day, and he knows that I hate facial hair).

I answer the door and notice right away that he is wearing new clothes (and I know he was off work). They were of the type we would have picked out together for him to wear. Not teenage or bizarre. It took me a moment and then I saw it--the beard was gone. I could not believe my eyes. Once again he looked me in the eye, in a friendly manner, asked to use the bathroom and breezed by right next to me (not the 5 ft perimeter he maintained at all times before leaving). When he came out, we looked at the vehicle (he saw a small dent and made a face). I laughed and said son is going to do worse than that, and walked inside.

In the evening he and son came back to the house. He has not come in when visiting either of the kids since May/June of 2017. He actually parked his car in my driveway. If you recall, he has not done this in years, except for a time he was circling home between OW1 and OW2. He and son stayed upstairs in the house for about 2 hours. I was in my bedroom watching TV. Son has no idea what is going on and asked me to make myself scarce so as not to scare him off. I didn't want to see him again anyway, so I was fine with it.

The following day, as a test, I sent him a picture of our D (he never responds to this sort of thing, ever). He responded right away and said something nice and used several exclamation points.

It is pretty clear to me what is going on. So I'm thinking about walls. Where they belong. Whether they keep others out or me in. I won't waste my time thinking up answers to questions that have not been asked. But I wanted to document these developments for those at the beginning, or those who are questioning their faith in what we have been told about this process and the stages that are often seen.

Shake hands, we shall never be friends . . .

Wow

Those are big developments

No beard

New clothes

Parking in the driveway

Spending time with son in the house

Does this mean it is waning or over with OW2?

That he is in some way peaking his head out?

How does all of this make you feel?

Looking you in the eye

And not keeping his distance

Those are big too

I remember when that started happening in my house

I did not know what to make of it at all

Cool calm and collected

You got this

Good Morning OneArt

As Gordie said: Wow, big developments. For him and you.

Walls.

Do they keep others out or you in?
They do both. Walls protect and contain.

Where do walls belong?
What a thoughtful query. You and he did not build a wall between you. You built a wall and he built a wall. There are two walls between the two of you.

Wall protect and contain, and need atleast one gate, drawbridge, or entrance. That is the weak point in the security of the wall.

Where do walls belong?
Big picture, long game - no walls.

At first, be vulnerable and build a gate. Take a leap and construct that gate, it can be opened and shut as needed.

Later, you can start to remove some bricks and rock. To unwind the indifference and let those feelings surface. They�re just fleeting feelings, nothing to be fearful of, or make life guiding decisions upon.

Walls.

Something there is that doesn�t love a wall.

DnJ

DnJ and Gordie:

Thanks for responding. I have been really good at not looking for any evidence they are still together. This weekend however I decided to see if she still has him on the public part of her FB and she does. That actually made me enormously relieved for S's sake. My fear was that maybe they broke up and he was spinning and coming here between women. I've always felt that if it was real, he would have to be the one to leave the "relationship".

This has felt more than him just cycling between women. While some of the things he did took a while to come to my attention, it was clear that he was trying in his own disordered way to have contact with me since August/September. I found it interesting that our phone call was in November, pretty much a month later he was able to come and face me, and a month after that he pushed again for dismissal, gave me the money, and I think was somewhat flirting with me. I have no doubt that the clothes and beard were for my benefit and the fact that it was only two weeks after the prior talk was perhaps evidence of him getting more comfortable.

I know that you can only ever know what this is by looking backward. But it has been longer than in the past, seems more substantial, and seems to be building. I've seen many threads here and elsewhere, and I think HB mentions in her articles, that if this is the first awakening, that it could take months for her to be gone and months more for him to try something more obvious.

Because I don't think he knows what he wants from one minute to the next, I certainly can't put any stock in this. I can't have any hopes or expectations of any particular outcome.

I am going to focus on my hope for friendlier relations for the kids' benefit, although I have no interest in being his friend, and the "nice" divorce I want if I see it swinging that way.

I did like seeing the twinkle back in his eye. I did like that he didn't treat me like I had ebola virus, and I did like that he showed up as we agreed for son. Son had a good time with him. OD seemed to survive being in the house with him. His text response to me the following day seemed like he wasn't hiding in fear from all that intimacy.

I remembered later, not sure if i wrote this at the time, that when he came in December, he blurted out, "I'm going to want more communication going forward." In that moment I thought he was talking about the two of us because of its placement in the conversation, and it seems he was. He also said when we met in his town that he would want to see S more than a few hours every other week. This could have been him saying he wants to spend more time here, who knows. Right now I don't expect that S or I will see or hear from him for another 10 days or so.

This scared little kitten has a lot to figure out. I am a cat person. I know to deal with cats. Whether I want to take in this stray is definitely something I'm not prepared to answer. I don't know enough about him yet and what kind of bad habits he would bring with him.

In my opinion...he's having moments of clarity and possibly does want to reconnect and spend more time in the home and w/your son and possibly w/you. Actions always speak louder than words and if he's consistent, then he may be on the road to feeling more comfortable w/himself and feels safe to come into your home.

The little kitten is still there, so drop the catnip and see if he follows it.

Oneart

You are wise to keep expectations at zero

He may want more

Or he may get scared off and distance again

They can cycle for long periods as you know

Too many known unknowns

And I never thought you had Ebola

Best wishes

OD is ramping up his efforts with S. He is calling regularly and they are discussing actual topics and areas of shared interest. He has not tried to get out of visiting S this week and is actually planning to take a short trip to do something that S has been wanting to do for a while. I am standing back, staying out of it, and just hoping that my sweet boy doesn't get hurt yet again.

Good Morning OneArt

It is nice to see Dad and son talking about shared interests. And planning a trip, to do something S wants to do. Wow. Fingers crossed that H isn�t so skittish that he doesn�t follow through. (Really DnJ, two negatives in that sentence could I make that any harder to follow). I hope he keeps his word. (That�s better)

You are handling yourself well in all this. I know you are keeping expectations low, a wise choice. And I see you have hope, another wise choice.

Heck your a cat person, you know how to handle this kind of thing.

Have a wonderful day.

DnJ

that's sounds promising
I hope OD finds his way

Oneart

I wanted to ask about the poem

I keep coming back to your thread to read it

Do your walls keep others out or keep you in?

That was a very provocative question

And what is your answer?

More reconnection or whatever this is. Sending gifts to the house. He's never been a gift-giver. Also apparently struggled with his pronouns again. While telling S that he had ordered something for him and it would arrive by mail, he struggled and finally came up with, it is being shipped directly to "the house." In the past, this would have been "the [city where we live] house", "your mother's house" or some other variant that injected as much distance as possible.

Gordie, I think the walls are mine. I may have walled him out long before he emotionally distanced from me. Ultimately I don't think it would have changed anything in our situation, but it is something I am thinking a lot about. I'm a little haunted by it really. But the positive to be found here is that if they are my walls, then I can take them down whenever I want or don't need them anymore.

I would keep my eyes open. He may be reconnecting on a serious level or he's doing the dance of wanting to be Mr. Nice Guy to keep you hooked on his fishing line. The man needs to earn your trust.

Job, thank you for the constant reminders regarding expectations. Not a risk for me in this moment, but something I plan to visit and revisit and revisit again. I take it the gift is a book that relates to some conversation they had, although it sounds as if he was coy about it. I think he is moving a little too fast from what I have seen with others and that makes me greatly suspicious. Though if he is unhappy in his present living situation, he may be trying to expedite for that purpose. Who knows?

Gordie, I forgot to mention that this part of the poem made me think of you and your W, "The gaps I mean,
[n]o one has seen them made or heard them made, [b]ut at spring mending-time we find them there." I think there are some gaps appearing in your wall. Maybe it happens more when we stop looking for them and just go about the business of living? Also, is Frost correct when he says that "good fences make good neighbors"? I think boundary maintenance is something that every LBS must learn and relearn throughout this process. I think that will be my biggest takeaway from this unpleasant life experience.

And so it continues. OD spent a total of 9 hours with S today. I believe that is more time than all of 2018 (or at least very close to it). He let S drive his new truck. They ran an errand for said truck and then S drove into the mountains (an hour or more each way) to a skiing venue. When they arrived, they messed around a bit and left early because there was no one there (why that would matter I have no idea).

S then drove back to our area and they parked at a shopping center at the movieplex we go to. They walked around for a bit, had food and went to a movie. Not sure what else they did. I didn't ask any questions, this is just the stuff that S revealed. I don't like to interrogate him (and there is no need since he dribbles out over the ensuing days what happened anyway).

Some big developments for OD:

1. He usually plays his political podcasts or stoic audiobooks anywhere you go with him. This time he had purchased a book on mythology (which he knows S loves) and actually played it from the beginning. For S's birthday trip two years ago (which involved a lot of driving) OD played a stoic book from the place in the middle of it where he was in the book. I see this as a huge leap forward in empathy from OD.

2. He did not criticize S's truck and actually said complementary things about it (since it was my suggestion and obtained from someone I know, and his sour face over the dings last time, I was expecting more criticism).

3. He took S for food and actually ate with him. This was a huge source of fights for us for several years since his MLC began. He would never eat with us. And he ate a sandwich no less (I can't even remember the last time he ate bread). Of course he has gained lots of weight so clearly he has switched up his diet.

4. The movie they saw was one that S wanted to see. Once again, one normally sees what OD wants to see.

5. Big one here. OD bought S popcorn and a drink and evidently consumed the same. Since the health kick began years ago, the fastest way to p!ss him off was the suggestion of either of these things. I couldn't resist and asked S what kind of drink he ordered (Diet Coke). When OD left, he said it was because I drank Diet Coke. When D was with him two years ago and ordered a Diet Coke, he freaked out, slammed the lid of the trash and said I had passed on my addiction to her. Apparently, he made no comment or face about the Diet Coke order.

6. He did not try to get S to agree to go to the place where he lives. In fact he never brought the place up at all.

7. The book he ordered arrived. It was about sleep and dreams. S has problems with sleeping during his depressive bouts. Not sure if the book was an empathetic gesture toward S or something OD read because he is experiencing sleep issues (he has always been a big sleeper, but who knows what his sleep has been like since leaving).

8. I really thought he would dump S home early and then run back to OW2 for VD. Guess not.

These are the first signs of returning empathy I have seen from OD. Again, no telling what is up, how long it will last, or what it means. Just reporting in case this is reconnection or a stage transition of some kind.

Sounds like OW is on the outs if he wasn't rushing to spend Valentine's Day with her.

Wow, One! I bet you are hardly believing your eyes. That is very peculiar that he spent such quality time with S. You just have to cross your fingers and hope it�s authentic and that OD�s flip doesn�t immediately go off. I hope your son had a nice day. I agree with KML... sounds likeOW is on the outs.

Good Morning OneArt

Son is probably happy getting to spend so much time with OD. It must seem a little strange eclipsing all of 2018�s visits in one go. Sounds like they both had a good time.

I agree with others, OW must be on the outs.

I am with you, something is going on. Is this incipient reconnect or a something else. Time will reveal I suppose.

DnJ

exciting to see a mlcer showing up differently
brings hope to all

I hope OD will continue to become a good father again and possibly more?

Good Luck one art
I am rooting for your situation

I agree w/the other posters...sounds like he is realizing that the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. OD and OW must be on the outs.

I hope he continues to be there and continue doing things w/your son. Time will tell what is going on w/him.

Thanks guys for the observations. It was surprising, but only time will tell if he keeps it up, builds on it, or falls off again. Son did have a good time and I think felt much closer to his dad. Because he really doesn't understand this stuff, he said "I think he likes me better now that I am older." I don't think he gets that dad is coming around now because he's been in la la land for years and it had nothing to do with son or his age.

As to the OW, hard to say if it is just the dying limerence and he's shopping for a new one, and killing time in between or whether he is legitimately waking up a bit (I think he's off the dating site that used to send me his profile). I went to breakfast with my mom and S. S repeated over and over how his father seemed so normal and relaxed. He talked about some of the things they talked about. He observed that his father is a peace-loving man who is very opposed to war. This is how I knew my H, and then he went into MLC and at some point bought the guns. I rather wonder what is up with those these days. Son also said that the coat I told him did not look good on him was nowhere in sight, replaced with a fleece that bears the name of D's college.

I got what I guess is a temperature check from him today. A business email on a matter with no urgency, but not nasty or cold like in the past. If anything I'd say a little tentative. Coming on the heels of the visit yesterday and that we have not spoken in two weeks, I think he just wanted to see where I was, keep dialog going, etc. I thanked him for reaching out and responded in a neutral fashion to the matter and told him I would follow up later when it was concluded. And, as is now his habit, a quick response thanking me. Big change there.

Son has a big tryout this weekend for the national team he was recruited to last year. OD actually wished him luck. Son said he was nervous and OD said of course they are going to want you. More signs that the man I knew is in there somewhere. Last year he didn't care when S was selected.

Originally Posted by job

I agree w/the other posters...sounds like he is realizing that the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. OD and OW must be on the outs.

Or to be cynical - demonstrating to OW that she'd better dance harder to keep his affections and that she's not the boss of him.

i suppose that is possible, but he could have said he was seeing his son without actually doing so and would have achieved the same end. It's not like OW and I talk. But it is a good reminder not to expect anything

This feels like an interesting place. After all the heartache and the turmoil, now it is just, . . . quiet. OD is texting S and seems to asking appropriate stuff and taking note of S's schedule and what he has been up to. It is his week on, so I am not expecting to hear anything from him. I think on these weeks he can only manage to get himself to work and back. By the time it is his week off again, I will be off visiting my D.

It feels like my S has stabilized. He seems calm, peaceful, and dare I say happy? He is about to finish a big course for a specialized volunteer activity that he really enjoys and should look great on his college applications. His grades are back on track. No missing assignments thankfully. He is getting daily solicitations from colleges (even the ivies) presumably from his PSAT score. He is giving serious debate for which track to pursue in his classes next year (engineering vs. the hard sciences). He had his tryout for the national team for his sport and they expressed a lot of interest in him. He is hoping to be invited to the Olympic development camp over the summer. If he is selected, I can go to Europe and watch my D in her European tour. I'm trying not to get too excited by that prospect.

D is in production now. She is getting great buzz according to her coach. I will be seeing her perform shortly and spending a few days with her in the big city on the opposite coast. OD was trying to find out from S if I am planning to go, but S is 15 and doesn't really pay attention to much involving others. I'm hoping to have some time to begin looking at apartments while I am there. If I can convince OD to get the house on the market soon, I might be able to get her something before the next school year. I'm just afraid if I broach it, he will be freaked out.

I just found out this morning about a very big win on behalf of one of my client's. That felt good. It is nice when your work feels rewarding.

Other than that, life is quiet. Hard to adjust to peace when you have been forced into a vortex of drama for a decade. At least the quiet moments no longer bring tears, fears, and buckets of pain. Just musings on the many opportunities awaiting me out there. Peace to you all.

One

Im happy for you with all your good news and sons achievements

Enjoy your night!

OneArt

You sound like you're in a great space. It's wonderful that your children appear to be hitting home runs too. No matter what happens with OD, you are already thriving - not just surviving.

Long may it continue!

Thank you Peace and devvo. I have so much to be grateful for. That is where I need to keep my focus. Best to you both.

One that is a great update

Your s and d both seem to be thriving

And your work is going well

You sound peaceful

One, when reading your last update I took a deep breath with you. Enjoy this much- earned peace and calm. You deserve some time to settle. Glad your kids seem to be doing ok with the contact as well.

Ok guys, I want to tell you why I'm posting so much now. I remember when I got the atomic BD and he left for good. I tried to find everything I could on MLC and what the stages look like (like everyone else probably). I found lots of stuff on replay, and very little after that. I am writing now in case this is reconnection (it may not be). I have no hopes, no expectations. I am just reporting in case this is helpful to anyone.

I sometimes take S's phone away. Usually when I think he is watching shows instead of doing HW or sleeping. I haven't taken it away for a week or so. I assumed he was talking to OD and that OD was still texting. I've mentioned that my S is very sensitive. He takes after me and is more emotional. D takes after her dad and she has to be in the mood for anything emotional or sensitive, and it isn't too often. So I'm looking through and see that OD and S talked on the phone this week again. That was good.

I see that in the texts OD is actually asking him about particular pieces of schoolwork, and across multiple days, like a father wanting to make sure the work is being done. This is somewhat shocking to me. The rest of the texts are things like I hope you are sleeping well, hope you got lots of rest yesterday, I would love to hear from you or talk to you, can I call you later, banter in the foreign language that S is studying and in which OD has shown an interest over the last several years. That sort of thing. Recall that he used to send links to articles or videos (music, self help, etc. that were more about what OD was going through) with no real text or robotic love ya, miss ya, etc. Nothing asking about S's life, nothing paternal, nothing too emotional.

Then I see a text from a couple of days ago in which OD tells S that he loves S very much and could not have asked for a better son. I have never, ever known OD to say something like this. His father lived nearby growing up but was never part of his life. Maybe one meal a year kind of thing and all of their conversations were very superficial.

Again, don't know what this is, if it is going anywhere, etc. Just recording it.

I think that's wonderful. He's wanting to make a deeper connection. I keep praying this for my H to do the same. As far as I can tell, it's the kids who always initiate contact. Hold tight these moments. It's all good.

I think I'm seeing some pulling away behavior, as expected. I will know more later this week when OD is supposed to come and see son.

I'm across the country watching my D perform in several productions. The day after the first one I sent him a picture of her in costume. He waited until the following morning to open the text and said only thanks. He didn't ask anything about it. I wrote back and said she was amazing by the way. No response.

She performed again a couple of days later. I was trying to decide whether to send him pics and possibly some bootleg audio I took. On the one hand, I didn't care for his response to the prior pic. On the other, I don't really care what he thinks anymore. Since I want to be the kind of person that would send my D's father pictures of her even after divorce, I went ahead and sent a few pictures. Instead of beating around the bush I also commented that she did great and that I had some audio that was too long to send. This time he opened the text right away but did not respond.

I imagine it is hard on him to get pictures of his daughter who he has not seen or talked to in over 2 years now. I've given him many suggestions on things he could do to improve the relationship and I have seen no evidence of effort. I don't even think she is that mad at him anymore. She knows I send him pictures and tell him how she's doing. I just think she wants to feel some grand gesture from him. I know it is up to them and I am trying to leave it to them.

I was also slightly annoyed that he did not bother asking me who was watching our son back at home. I think that would have been my first question. Nope. Nada. Nothing. At least not to me. I'm hoping he at least checked in on son back at home. I didn't ask him to stay with son (even though I suspect he's off) because the last time he did he did a major pull back from son and I didn't want to put son through that again. I just don't think he is anywhere near ready to be a parent or spend time in our home.

I'm very pleased that his regression is not something that I feel any concern about and that I was able to deal with him calmly as I would like to do post-divorce. I didn't even feel the slightest temptation to rip into him. Two years ago, after a similar concert, I sent him a text telling him that I was heartbroken for him that he was choosing to miss these moments of her life. I got a monster text back (which I deserved) and which broke out in a nasty text battle. I'm pleased that this time I was able just to send the pictures of his beautiful daughter.

I think I've come to the realization that I was supposed to meet and marry him so that I could give birth to the true loves of my life and so I could be for them the mother that I didn't have. Given that, I think he fulfilled his obligation to me and I wish him nothing but happiness in his life moving forward. I have all I need to be happy.

I like the way you have processed your situation
I guess there are no mistakes
and for so many here, we take a horrid situation and turn it into gold-
that's the miracle...we grow..

we change..
we become better,
happier, closer to God or more enlightened (maybe)

Sounds like OD may be depressed and looking at his current lifestyle and choices
makes sense that he would-

You are doing great and congrats to your D for all her accomplishments in performing

Quote

I think I've come to the realization that I was supposed to meet and marry him so that I could give birth to the true loves of my life and so I could be for them the mother that I didn't have. Given that, I think he fulfilled his obligation to me and I wish him nothing but happiness in his life moving forward. I have all I need to be happy.

Amen to that!

Thank you Peace, you always bring me peace. I'm trying to see things in the most positive light and be grateful for what I have for sure.

KML, this is really becoming clear to me. I think it has always been this way, I think my pride got wound up in this and pushed him up in importance. Glad I have made my way through my fog.

___________________________________

So, I did have a chance to test my theory that OD was pulling away. When I got back I checked S's phone. Not much contact, a few texts, back to not much substance. No phone calls. No checking in on S when I was obviously out of town. Minor chastising for S not responding to him even though I think it was a cover for not contacting S for days. Then he asked S where to pick him up. No communication with me.

He picked S up from school and then they came here to get S's vehicle. S popped in briefly. From his mood I could tell there was an issue with school, and he made a comment about not having a choice about what was bothering him. I can always tell now. After he left I confirmed it. Another missing assignment and in view of what he said to me, I felt it was important to have a talk with him. Since he was out with OD and at his counseling appointment, I texted OD and told him I needed to speak with S tonight about some issues with school. I told OD that it would be great if he wanted to participate, and if he did not, that was fine too. Surprisingly he read the text right away and responded.

They showed up here. OD still looks awful. Was wearing the same new shirt and a different pair of new pants. They both looked even tighter than before. Still no sign of the ugly coat. OD put his phone face down on the coffee table (remember the time prior he was waving pictures of her in my face). Was it to honor my request, because he knew she or someone would text, no idea.

Went through the background of the problems with S and school. Wanted to make sure OD and S heard everything and everyone was on the same page. I told S he doesn't have to go to this top school if he doesn't want to, but that I was not hanging around here for the 3rd rate choice, that we would sell the house and move to the place I want to go. S said what about my activity. I said they have your activity there. He said oh yeah. OD said nothing, but he should have definitely heard that I am getting out of here when the school thing is over.

After the summary, OD jumped right in being fatherly, mostly supporting what I have been telling S. I had S do his course form for next year so OD couldn't claim he didn't know what S was taking or the courses were too hard or whatever. Seemed as though the two of them had been discussing the options. OD was being good with S but would not look at me. S was looking at his feet and I kept saying, for both of their benefits, that it was polite to look people in the eye when they are speaking to you. S went to his room to get a form. I said is there a reason you aren't looking at me. He said I'm just tired. And then he was better with eye contact.

OD seemed in a rush to get out of there. I would put his time in the house at about 45 minutes. I said you never commented on the pictures of D. He said she looks good. I said no, she looks great (she has lost a bunch of weight, kept it off, and is stunningly beautiful). He didn't really say anything. I played him the recordings I made at the recital. He seemed bored. I told him I wasn't thrilled about her living situation (I want to buy a condo near her school and have been trying to work into a discussion of selling the house to make that happen), he showed next to no interest.

When we were done with the discussion and forms for S he jumped up and announced he needed to go (had been texting someone). I walked him down. I said when we spoke previously I told you it bothers me when you don't acknowledge when I go out of my way to send you something pertaining to the kids (such as the pictures and recording). He said I'm grateful. I said I hope you are planning to keep things up with S, he wants you in his life and he is a good kid. He said I want to be in his life. I want him to call me Sunday and I want to talk to him about his schoolwork next week. He mentioned D and said something about not knowing her or talking to her or something. He said maybe someday or maybe not. I said don't say that. You have to keep trying. He said it wasn't in his control. I said it is in your control (meaning his effort, his apology, etc.). He said I'm not arguing with you about that. Then, in a dismissive way to let me know he was leaving, he said, can you shut the garage door after me.

So, warm and paternal with S. Made a rude comment about the house. Was annoyed at the cat sniffing him. Wouldn't look me in the eye but mostly on the same page about S and his schoolwork and activity. Clearly back in the mode that people just need to move on and if D doesn't want anything to do with him that is fine. No mention of the separation agreement. No mention of meeting to get it done. No mention of the auto insurance he hasn't moved. Still hasn't produced the health insurance cards. Not a full cycle away, but definitely a retreat. Very eager to get out of here, presumably to meet up with someone. OW2, OW3? Who knows. It is going to be very hard to get to the selling the house talk with him if he keeps this up.

Oh yes, forgot the stats.

Facial hair status: clean shaven
Consecutive visits with S: 3 (and no attempts to get out. He's now seen him more than all of last year in total time and number of visits).

I should say this is the first time he and I have had a talk in 3 years that didn't include any back and forth jabs. I did discuss a few boundaries/prior requests (responding when I send him things, looking me in the eye, etc.) and he took them very well. Even though he knew I was going to have a tough talk with S, he responded immediately and showed up. He would not have been able to do this previously.

He's still waffling between staying in his fantasy world and returning to the real one that has responsibilities. He can only handle so much and then he has to leave and mull things over. He may have had a meet up w/someone, i.e., could have been a male or female friend, but at least he stayed for a bit.

Try not to over load him with stuff just yet. Like a skittish colt, he needs to be hand fed bits and pieces of oats to get him to where you want him.

Enjoy your weekend!

makes sense what Job said
he probably can only handle small doses of reality
and very small /tiny doses of self reflection

living in denial and running from one addiction to another-
stuffing feelings ect
takes its toll

I think it is good that he shows some signs of improvement
and it still may be years until he can recover from all the damage

I wonder if these Mlcers never get support or some kind of therapy-
what are their chances of recovering on their own?
Job do you know if they can recover with no therapy or help?

keep expectations lower than low-

peace,

Yes, they can recover w/o therapy. I know of a couple of MLCers that have come back to realty, faced their demons and reconciled w/their family all w/o therapy.

Job thanks for the reminder on not asking him to do anything, and Peace for the reminder to keep expectations very low. I would not have roped him into a parenting talk, except that S was with him when I discovered the school issue and I was afraid they would head off to a movie or something, leaving S no time to do the current homework, much less the past due. I definitely gave him an out in terms of coming or participating. I was surprised that he did come knowing there would be a difficult discussion because about 6 weeks ago he wouldn't even get off the freeway when he drove right by our house to see S when I asked him to because S was self-harming heading into his finals (and at that point he hadn't seen S in a while). He pretty much supported my approach regarding S's schoolwork and expectations and he displayed a lot of empathy and affection toward S. He reiterated to S that he was not mad at him, that he understood the struggles, and he gave S a very warm hug when he left.

It occurred to me later that the texting could have been work-related (he always had a lot of that in the evenings regarding patient loads, overnight instructions, etc.) or could even have been a means to test me to see how I would react (I remember Happy Again's threads in the efforts he took to test his W to see if she had really changed). In the past I would have told him not to do it in front of me or in my house. I didn't care who he was texting and I think I made that obvious through my actions (or lack thereof). I could also see him, having appeased me by putting his phone face down, determined to show me that I couldn't control his behavior. I also think he was texting when S left the room, so probably a way to put a barrier between us and handle his anxiety in case I might try to bring up the separation agreement.

In terms of him rushing off, it was 8 pm by then, with an hour drive back to where he lives. He may have also wanted to leave so that S could get his work done. Will never know one way or another, but I should probably stop assuming the worst of him all the time.

I hate to say this but I personally have no hope for OD to ever go to counseling, and I don't have a lot of faith in counselors myself so I doubt that I would even encourage it at this point. I've been to quite a few now, and I did not personally have any revelations there that were any better or more helpful than simply reading well-reviewed books on the various topics.

I plan to not initiate any contact with him for at least a month, when I will have to contact him to get signatures for our taxes. In all, there was some definite pulling back in communication and eye contact, but positives too. He showed up, he demonstrated empathy, he helped to problem solve, he didn't run from a difficult conversation, he was cooperative with me in communication and coming, and he didn't say anything too snarky.

Hello OneArt

One of my first thoughts was as job said, he is pushing back from all the pressures of reality.

Your reflections are excellent. I really like this statement:

Quote

...I should probably stop assuming the worst of him all the time.

OneArt, now that is some really top shelf advice from this really smart gal I know.

DnJ

I've been thinking about something since you wrote this DnJ and realizing that I don't really know what is meant by having no expectations. Does that mean not having low expectations either? I guess my MO has been to assume the worst at all times. But is that having expectations, even if they are bad ones? Is there a point in this process where you have to shift from that negative default to a more open-ended concept of what having no expectations means? Just something I've been musing on. If anyone else has thoughts, as always I'd love to hear them.

Hello OneArt

I think that assuming the worst at all times is having a lot of expectations. You expect H to behave poorly. Sadly he has not disappointed you very often.

Most times the expression �keep expectations to zero� is for our positive wishing or hoping for something. For example H taking your son out to dinner. Or expecting H to answer a text.

To me expectations are hope with a time frame attached. There is a difference between I hope H contacts son this weekend vs I hope H contacts son.

I posted about this a while ago it may still have merit.

Hope

The idea as you well know is to limit our disappointment in unmet expectations from our spouse. To that end a more open-ended concept is better than the negative default. If we always expect poor behaviour we will subtly project that and others will fulfill it.

You just go about your business with out any expectations good or bad about what your spouse might or will do.

Is keeping expectations at zero the same as expecting nothing? Expecting nothing - a null response, is an expectation. The true view of expectations at zero is in expecting anything. Something will happen, even if it is nothing, we just are not expecting any particular outcome or timeline. Follows more in the just have hope idea.

Of course this no expectations is just for reducing the pressures we place on our spouses and reduces our repeated disappointment and resentment. Healthy people have expectations of them. For example. I expect my daughter to be home after school by 4:00pm. When she isn�t, my expectations are not met, and we have a discussion. This is fine for healthy individuals.

Our MLC spouses are not healthy and will not keep arrangements. Having discussions over unmet expectations would be disastrous. And holding in all that resentment from unmet expectations would be unhealthy for us. Hence - expectations at zero. Eventually, or hopefully, our MLCers will start to come back to reality and heal. Then expectations can be placed upon them - slowly.

However, while they are high strung, squirrel/cat/hummingbird tunnel dwellers we can�t really expect much.

DnJ

Originally Posted by OneArt

I have a bit different perspective. My own take about having no expectations is that we need to completely disassociate ourselves from their process and their outcome.

Many of us were the fixers who did the adulting in the relationships and so we have a very hard time letting go of that. It may be easier for me where I have zero contact with my ex, closure on the divorce, but I do still find myself watching out of the corner of my eye hoping perhaps that she'll fall and regret, or rise up and prosper.

I do think that this is an important part of our own healing and moving on. Removing that which tethers us to the past. From my experience in talking to divorced friends, very very few actually manage to do that. When kids are in the mix with practical and regular ties to both sides, I would imagine that it's impossible for them.

Hi over here. Oh, what nice developments in your thread.

I agree with Andrew's take on "no expectations" In codependency language, it's taking our happiness and joy from our own lives and disentangling our emotional wellness from their unreliability and process. I think when I really and truly started living my life for me, my H was freed to actually engage in some of his emotional work without my being so invested in his specific outcomes.

I also think I have no expectations while also making requests of H now. It means that I have gotten in touch again with who I am, want I want, and what I deserve. I make requests of him that I would make to anyone who occupied this level of importance to me because I deserve to ask for the things that I want, and I deserve to be treated well by people who are family. The asking is healing, but it was only healing once I divorced myself of the result. In not asking, I felt l like I was squishing myself, making myself small, and really actually protecting him from emotional growth.

I ask now. I ask expecting he will most likely say no. Seeing that as a reflection of him rather than whether or not I am deserving has been enormous. It allows me to be true to myself while maintaining no expectations. If he surprises me and says yes (and he does sometimes!), I thank him. If he declines with kindness and states his truth, I thank him for that. If he blasts me, I leave and take my space and refuse to feel that his loss of calm was because I asked. The world asks us for things, and he gets to practice self awareness and boundaries when I ask.

And, this means that I get to be boundaries. People who care about me and want me in their life will sometimes say yes to my requests. If he can't, he can't and it also means he doesn't get to stay. Not from a place of punishment, but from a place of I can't hold space for him or anyone who doesn't treat me like someone they are willing to work to keep.

I also like that you're writing from this place in your life, and I think I'll see if I can do the same. What are the stories of potential reconnection? What does awakening look like? What is on the other side? and, for those people early in MLC, do these stories of the future, a better one for the LBS and also for the MLC, offer enough hope to get through the raw moments of those early days. Or, I guess, alternately, do they tie people to a potential future that may never come?

After almost 2 years, I finally shared the MLC journey with a colleague at my last job. Three months later, she had her own bomb drop experience and her H did pretty much everything my H had done. She so admired my patience and perserverence... but she also kicked him out after 4 short months. Sometimes, I wish I was as firm as her and that I was done but it was so lovely to look at each other's stories from such a distance of time on either side.

DnJ, of course I knew that you would say that and you are indeed correct. I have been circling this issue for some time and I guess was ready to face it. Expecting the worst is a protective mechanism, but as you say does have the cost of driving down expectations. I remember hearing of a teacher who was given the worst kids, but was actually told she was given the best. At the end of the year, her kids out-tested the top kids. Expectations often drive the level of our performance.

Andrew, excellent points. Of course, not possible with an emotionally-needy 15yo boy. I think had he been older, I would have pushed the divorce through, sold the house, and gone back to the place where I want to live. It would have been much easier for me to move beyond this stuff. It is still my plan, but a little over 2 years down the road (and getting closer every day).

Given S and his needs and wants, I think the best I can do is just be kind and not project my negativity onto OD, while simultaneously keeping my positive expectations in check. Because I no longer see the desirability of a personal relationship with OD, focusing on aiding his relationship with S (even by doing nothing more than staying scrupulously out of it) is something that feels much more psychologically possible.

Survive, I didn't see your response before posting. I like the idea of asking for things. I think I have begun to do that without knowing so. I told him that he would see S at least every other week or not at all. He actually seemed relieved and has been good about it. I told him that if I go out of my way to tell him something about the kids or send a picture I'm not required to send, that I would appreciate a thank you, out of basic civility. I told him that I don't want to have to look at pictures of OW2 on his phone and he seems to be respecting that. This last time I asked him why he wasn't looking at me when speaking to me. I see these things as good manners, civility, etc. I will not be disrespected by him or anyone else anymore. I have no fear of asking for these things.

I found that when I shared about my miscarriages, there were many people who had experienced the same. I'm finding the same true with MLC. My partner at work is now going through the same thing. She did not support me, so I am trying my hardest to be supportive of her, because I can do so from a place of understanding. She too filed very quickly and is close to wrapping up her divorce. At first I was envious of that, but now I have a neutral feeling about it.

DnJ posted about standing before and when standing really begins. I think he is right. In the beginning we stand for ourselves because we are shattered. After a time, standing becomes a matter of choice. DnJ has also allowed me to embrace my limbo as a choice, rather than something before forced upon me. That simple frame shift has released me from much pain.

Therefore, I think in the early days, it is helpful for people to look for positive stories and to hold on. Then, it becomes a matter of how they handle limbo and what signs they are seeing from their spouse. But, I have a caveat that I would personally advise others. If the MLCer is abusive or withdraws financial support, I would not hold on. I would strike back immediately to protect myself and my children. Mine said mean things to me and did a few petty things to me. He never stopped financial support and even in his darkest days he would respond to me if I asked him to. I guess I saw enough in those actions to hope for a civil resolution, whatever that might be.

Ok, another OD update. This one is rather interesting in its own way. Sorry it is long. May be the last one for a bit.

I haven't had any communication with OD since the last visit. OD texted S every day that he was working (the week he doesn't see S), and then slowed on the texting at the beginning of the week once he was off. He texted a few days ago saying he was looking forward to seeing S, so we assumed he would show. I gather he texted S at school asking what time he should be picked up.

Since our January talk he has been picking S up at school and then coming here to get S's vehicle so S could practice driving. Today they didn't come here after school. I checked S's tracker to make sure he got picked up and they were driving around the downtown of the town where we live (more on this in a bit).

About 45 minutes later than usual they showed up to get the vehicle. S came in the house. He can't find his wallet. S is notoriously bad about looking for things. I start to go down the stairs to the first floor. S stops me on the stairs. What are you doing, where are you going, he's out there. I said I don't care that he is out there, I'm going to look in your car and mine for your wallet. I said I refuse to act weird around him and you should not either.

I go outside and look in the vehicle (he is parked behind it waiting to pull into that space). I can't find the wallet in S's car. I stop by the passenger window. OD is pretending not to see me. I motion to roll down the window. He does. I say S has lost his wallet, we are looking for it, he'll be out in a bit. He laughs, smiles at me, is being somewhat flirty. He says something about S's age. I then tell him a funny story about something else S lost earlier in the week. He is smiling, communicating nicely, looking me in the eye. I go in the garage and meet S at the back of my car. We find the wallet in a bag in my trunk. I go back inside and they leave.

I had told the only person I talk to IRL about this stuff that I thought while OD got a rush from seeing S again, that I didn't expect it to last long. It is an hour drive, there never seems to be a plan, other than S driving around or going to the movies. OD was never that close to S or that interested in S. I just didn't see him sustaining this. I had also said that I had a feeling that he was becoming depressed again because the texts were less chatty, no punctuation or emojis, a bit of a downer.

S came back about 2 hours later. I say how did it go. He said he was pretty depressed and not really talking. OD told S he was sick. I said sick in what way, a cold? I didn't hear a cold on him at all. S said yes. I said did you tell him that you now have your activity on the day of the week you were seeing him and can't see him next time on that day. S said yes and that S suggested Saturdays. OD seemed nonplussed about the change, said that might work and that S would have to be flexible (you know because since he works 7 days on and 7 off, that is OW2's time and all).

I asked if S told OD that he was recruited to the Olympic development team for his sport (which you would think a father might see as a big deal, especially since it bodes well for college recruiting--this is a big college sport). S said OD didn't seem that excited. I asked if he asked about S's homework, and S said yes, which is good since that was the topic last time.

Now OD hates, hates, hates our town. Every time the name of our town comes up, he says how much he hates this town and our house. He lived here 30 days before I kicked him out because of the ongoing affair with OW1 (we had moved from 3 hours away). This is the swanky suburb of a major city. It is the place where pro ballers live, tech executives, etc. Our house is on the edge of the downtown area of our town. S attends school on the far outer edge of the next town over. Generally OD and S hang out in the town where his school is and never go past our house (which is near the freeway) to go to the downtown of our town. If that makes sense. I said to S, did you drive his vehicle after school? He said no OD drove him. I said why were you driving around the downtown of our town (I told him I wondered what was keeping them and checked the tracker). He said I don't know. He just drove there and was driving all around. I said did he criticize the town when you were driving around? S said no. This is literally a first.

I asked S if anything else happened during the outing. S said he asked OD to come to a race for his sport this weekend that is in the major city. OD told him he would think about it. I thought that was odd (but then I can't picture OD being willing to face the parents and coaches that know he is out of the picture). S said OD told him that he expected S to take good care of S's vehicle (recall OD at first wanted no part of purchasing this vehicle, but then gave me half the money for it less than an hour later). He told S that he expected said vehicle to be clean and waxed at all times. It is a low mileage 4 year old utility vehicle that came to S with a few dents and scrapes. Why does OD care about this?

OD also mentioned drinking a certain kind of alcohol (much harder than beer or cider). Recall this is a guy who never, ever drank until he was 48. S said he mentioned it several times, as though waiting for S to respond. S finally said, why are you talking to me about drinking? My whole life you told me how bad drinking is. OD said, "things change." S says he shot back, "yes, sometimes for the worse." That shut OD up.

So, another unusual visit. OD didn't try to get out of it, but was depressed and had no plan. He tried to ignore me, but was friendly and flirty. He seems to care about S's vehicle. Still trying to be a dad about homework. He seems to be more interested in our town. We are now back to no definitive plan to see S. I doubt he will come to the race. Poor S. I told him I thought this was part of dad's process. Has nothing to do with him. And will probably get worse before it gets better.

I think telling S about the drinking was a message for me. Similar to the prior gun talk. He knows I am a lifelong teetotaler and would be angry with him being pro drinking to my children. I think this was either to get me to explode on him, or test to see if I am accepting of what he has been doing. I don't plan to say anything to him. I think S handled it perfectly.

That does seem like a really odd time. I am sorry that he places such a low value on time with his son. That is very tragic.

Best of luck to your son on his Olympic development team. That is very exciting!

Thanks Kate. I don't think he places a low value on time with S, I think this is what a depressed person who has lost touch with what it means to be a father and is in a selfish place does. This process is ugly and the hits keep on coming. But nothing happened here that was unexpected. I think he is still very conflicted. Still circling in and in some ways reconnecting, but still all about himself.

I agree w/OneArt's posting. He's trying to reconnect, but is still having issues with confusion. Until he reconciles his issues, he'll continue to circle around for a bit longer and hopefully, he will get some help w/his depression.

Hello OneArt

H�s confusion is certainly evident. It does look like he is working on or though something. Still, showing some reconnection efforts through it. Where it is going, time will tell, as you well know.

I think you handled the missing wallet well. No need for you to be different just because H shows up. I think it was really good you speaking to H when he was trying to ignore you.

It sounds like son has got himself back on track. That is very good news. Hope he does well on the team.

DnJ

I've had a few moments in the last several days where I felt sheer and utter rage for him and almost sent him something awful. Instead, in view of not being able to have regular visits with S now during the week, I sent him S's schedule for the next six months indicating every possible day that S could see him and asked him to kindly let me know which days he would like me to set aside for him (in particular S will be gone most of the summer and if he doesn't schedule time, he will not see S). As expected, no response. Not even a thank you.

S brought up the alcohol comments again. He said I think he wanted me to tell you that he is a drinker now so you know how different he is. I said yes S, that was a message for me. I think he wants an angry response from me. S said you aren't going to send one are you. I said no. You handled it brilliantly and I am not his trained monkey. I said instead I sent him a nice email saying I hoped he was well (since S said he was sick) and gave him your schedule through the start of school. S said ok.

I realize that my rage is that 4 letter word EXPECTATIONS. Don't worry, I've already slapped myself for it. S had told him that his race was today and OD said he would think about attending (S has never specifically asked him to attend anything before). OD never contacted him. The race is actually tomorrow and was included in the email I sent him. I doubt it will make a difference. S said he never comes to anything for me. I think he doesn't like me. I don't think he's ever liked me. I bet he wishes I'd never been born. All I could say to S was this is his issue. His problem. I love you and am always here for you.

Then I let S take me for a ride in his truck and my convertible. Now he's off riding his bike. A little more wind therapy will do him good. The hardest thing for me in all of this is my S and how much he wants a father and knowing how miserably I failed him in that regard. I hope that I can forgive myself one day.

OneArt,

I am so sorry that your h has let his son done and didn't respond to your message.

I do think that his drinking comments were a message for you through your son. He was looking for a reaction from you about it and didn't get the reaction he was expecting. Sometimes, it takes days for them to respond back and who knows, you might have caught him off guard when you didn't respond the way he thought you would. He still looks to you as an authority figure.

As for him not liking your son, I don't think that's the issue. I think he resents his son and the relationship that your son has w/you. Many of them will become jealous and resentful of their children because they are still in the "teen" mode and think about how their parents treated them back in the day. Yes, it is your h's issue and he needs to work things out.

As for your son, continue to support him as you have been doing. Some day, he will look back and acknowledge the fact that you were there for him through some of the roughest patches in his life. I do think that deep down, his father does love him, but he doesn't know how to relate to him at the moment.

You have nothing to forgive. You didn't know that your h would flip the switch become the person he is today.

Thanks Job. I went back and read through TMAK yet again and some other threads on reconnection. He hasn't done anything that wise people such as yourself didn't predict long ago. In the TMAK it talks about how they will tell you things they have done to see if you can accept them. I think he is doing that, although in his usual disordered fashion indirectly through my child. In the threads I read it also discussed that they will pull away throughout reconnection and reemerge. I imagine he will do that. I hope for S that he does.

S had to call him yesterday because of something we needed to pick up that he and S had dropped off the other day (and for some reason they put OD's name on it and not mine). He answered the phone right away and immediately sent S what he needed, so I guess that is something. In the past he would not have answered a call from one of the children. I think he was too afraid. No mention of the race though.

I watched S closely last night and this a.m. as I drove him to his event. He seems OK. I didn't see any wallowing or depression or sense of sadness. Thankfully it is a beautiful day here and his race is outside and he is with his friends.

I know you are right about him seeing me as a maternal figure. I don't know how to put an end to that other than not responding as a maternal figure. I think it has just been a rough few days in general and I am feeling that anxiousness TMAK describes, waiting for him to disappoint S yet again. I have to stop these negative expectations.

Thank you as always for your support.

I did end up getting a response from him. In the past he would not have responded at all, and likely sent my S a nasty text saying that he would let my son know when he could see him (for over a year he refused to coordinate anything with me schedule-wise). So I guess that continues to be progress and suggest that he has not returned to monster mode.

He thanked me and said he had to check his work schedule (uh huh) and that he would get back to me next week. Whether he will, who knows, but at least he gave a polite response, even if it took him two days and he could have told me the same thing upon receiving it (insofar as he didn't actually give me any dates). He did not show up for the race (but son won both events and had a good time).

Hey guys, I could use some help here. Major, big time help.

I think it is time to ask OD directly why he displays so much ambivalence about bringing things to a close and asking if there is anything I can do to make it easier for him to do so (he is now not responding to me about wanting to meet to discuss putting the house on the market). Or maybe being more direct than that.

Job, you suggested asking him after our talk in December if he wants to come home. I'm rather regretting I didn't do that. I took a middle of the road thing. I think if I ask him that question he will either admit he does (or at least it will result in an actual conversation about moving in some direction) or he will realize in that moment that he doesn't want to, and may be willing to move forward with wrapping things up. I just think he is stuck, stuck, stuck. I would preface the conversation by saying that I was approaching him with an open and forgiving heart and that I have had time to heal and feel strong. I would again reiterate that I bear him no ill will and that I understand better than he thinks why he has made the choices he has.

I've done it all. I've DBed, not DBed, I've showed my willingness to move forward with divorce, I've left him alone to work this out for himself. Nothing is working. I am sitting here having my life, and that of my kids, controlled by his inactions and I no longer choose to remain in limbo.

I am fine with whatever the outcome is here. I just need it to go somewhere.

Do you think he would be willing to go to one counseling session maybe with the idea of Co parenting?

Maybe wait to act on this until you get some suggestions here

In reality when the time is right and you can put the words together- I wonder if there is a way to let him talk
about what he is thinking without suggesting any direction

let him just tell you again what he is thinking while you say nothing and stay neutral

then maybe you will have a clearer path to follow-and you may have to make the hard choice without him
especially if you don't want to stay in limbo

Is there a reason you have get out of limbo now?
or would a little more time benefit the situation
only you can know-

But to get out to try to get rid of the pain- wont help
work through the anxiety of not knowing first -then rethink it

Also I am sorry for your son--I have heard similar complaints as of lately that my son 17 feels abandoned, unloved- ect
I see it as a good sign that he can clearly see/express and feel his pain

I just listen validate and confirm I am also here

I also see my son making good choices and great direction and path for his life so his expressing does not concern me

remember you did not fail him- no- you have shown your kids courage strength an dstability and forgiveness

We took the road we thought best by M them
We had no way to know, this would be the outcome-
and maybe this way was lightened by our H being gone-
It could have been worse perhaps if they stayed-

hang in

Thanks for the response Peace, just to clarify a few points.

I don't feel any pain. None at all. My life is good. I finally accept that S and OD will have whatever relationship they have and that can't be the basis for my action/inaction.

I really want to sell the house ASAP. Our market is falling. The proceeds of the house are a big part of any payout I'm getting. I really want to buy a place where my D goes to school. I need to sell this place to do so. His limbo is keeping that from happening. S doesn't like this house. He feels sad and lonely here. D needs to get out of the dorms. I need her to be in an apartment with her grand piano and her two cats and so S and I can visit her regularly.

I think the time doesn't help him. I think he will keep spinning. I think he needs hand-holding and a depth charge or whatever you call them. I think I have to lead this conversation however it goes. I think I just want to say something, anything, to get a conversation going. He is afraid of any conversation.

We are getting along pretty well in general now, but he doesn't like to have adult conversations.

OneArt,

I think you need to lay it all out for him, i.e., the housing market and the fact that you want to purchase a place closer to where your D goes to school. Point out that the market is falling and now is the time to sell. You can always say "h, the housing market is dropping and I would like to sell the house in the next couple of months so that we can relocate closer to D. If you want to buy me out, that is fine, but we have got to make some decisions about this place so that I can get it on the market for the spring selling time."

I think that if you put it to him in a calm, neutral tone, you might get some answers. It's time to experiment and see just what his thoughts are on where he sees himself in another 6 months or so.

2x job

It might be a lot for him to consider

Maybe write it down as a backup

I really feel that he is trying to drive me crazy. As with the request for what days he wants to see S (which he has not answered), he waited two days to respond. The response was friendly, warm, and colloquial. No sign of the formal, Elizabethan English that has often punctuated his correspondence with me. He referred to us "getting together". I am shocked by this, shocked that he would use this language to refer to us meeting at this point in time. While he said we could do it next week, he gave no indication of when, what his availability is, or where, thus ensuring that I will have to contact him yet again, and wait yet again for a response, likely only to be told that he is unavailable. Since I don't have the tax docs in hand, I don't think I can push for the date yet. I just find this frustrating and his ping ponging all over the place exhausting. I feel as though I am dealing with 10 different personalities.

Hello OneArt

Your agitation is jumping right off the page. H is stuck, and therefore you believe you are as well. The house is a pivotal point in all of this, the sale of it necessary for you and him.

I do believe you are correct he requires you to lead any conversations regarding �adult� business, the house sale definitely qualifies. However, his is afraid of any conversation. So, going at this directly will most likely push him into hiding.

I do wonder about the need to get out of limbo. House? Price? Market falling? Fear?

You do know your situation best.

To me you need to lead a conversation without discussing it, to keep H from being afraid. Ask him questions, then tell him what to do. No real conversation, just getting the information and direction to him.

Maybe: H, can you tell me what the house is worth? Perhaps he gets you the answer. Thank you, I would like to get my half so I can move to be close to D. (See if he responds) H, how do I go about doing that?

A question he can answer, then a direction and statement of your desired action. No real conversation. Nothing about the reasons, just the result. An irrational person might even be able to follow along with a plan that way, especially if he is the one who answered, and crafted it.

Just a few ideas. I find getting buy in is necessary for success.

DnJ

DnJ, I feel like you got me on this one. He doesn't do direct. He runs in fear and hides. Now he is hiding behind niceness instead of nastiness. Why? Just when I get used to one face, he shows another.

Alright, now I know he is trying to drive me crazy. About a week ago I saw that there was a charge for a magazine on our joint credit card (which he has not used for 2 years and which I pay). This was unquestionably his magazine and does not come to my house. I figured it was probably an auto renew (and the bank has purged the bills from a year ago so I couldn't check). Just now, I see that a few days ago he charged a donation to a political campaign for a candidate running in 2020 (most definitely his candidate so not an accident). Why is he suddenly charging things to this card after 2 years? Is this another of his creepy ways to get me to contact him or start a fight? It is $150 in all. Probably not worth making a stink over, but what's next?

OneArt,

I am not walking in your shoes, but I would certainly get rid of that "joint" charge card. If you don't, he's going to be racking up more charges. If you want to stop him from using the joint card, call the credit card company and report that you have misplaced the card and require them to move the balance to a new account number. When the cards come, don't give him a card. If you don't, you will be seeing more and more charges coming in.

He could very well feel comfortable in charging up stuff on that card and also could be doing it to see if you are going to say something about it. Either way, you will be the one paying the bill unless you have an understanding w/him that he pays all of his charges.

In my opinion, I think he likes to keep you off balance. Why? That way he doesn't have to deal w/adult responsibilities and be accountable for what he says or does. He knows that if he can get you to focus on other things, you may not think about having that adult discussion w/him about the house and divorce. Don't take his bait! Keep your focus on what you need to do to have that discussion w/him and continue to move forward, i.e., whether a divorce is in the cards or not. When you do talk to him, I like DNJ's suggestion on how to approach the subject. I would also keep your points short and sweet and no long talks because his attention span is that of a gnat.

I to think he's afraid to let go of your apron strings and learn how to walk on his own and he is doing everything humanly possible to keep you right where he left you.

Good Morning OneArt

Originally Posted by OneArt

Alright, now I know he is trying to drive me crazy.

Perhaps.

I am not sure you can really know his true motives when he may not even know them himself.

Are you being driven crazy by him?

Hmmm. Not quite accurate.

Are you being driven crazy by his actions and behaviour?

Hmmm. Closer.

Are you making yourself crazy by focusing on his actions and behaviour?

Originally Posted by OneArt

Why is he suddenly charging things to this card after 2 years? Is this another of his creepy ways to get me to contact him or start a fight?

Again. Perhaps.

Expectations dear friend. And negative ones at that.

Yes, his sudden credit card useage does look suspicious. Is it an effort to get to you. Maybe. Maybe not.

If it is, why do you think it is negative. You and he are somewhat getting along. His language useage is different (than expected

), so something is most likely going on with or within him.

He has reached out lately as well. All this is going to take a toll on him; he is well out of his comfortable zone. So he might be trying to start a fight,he might just be buying a magazine, he might be trying to reach out to you to see what you will do.

Drop the expectations. Stop making yourself worked up. His behaviour is not making you agitated, your response to him is.

If you have negative and low expectation, I guarantee he will meet and live up to them.

I have taken today off, and in one and half hours D16 will be performing in our local piano recital. I have no expectations as to STBXW attending. She said she would, so I�ll see. What will she be wearing? Expectation at zero. Which means it could be anything from a gothic teenager, a chicken outfit, short shorts and a bra, to a normal women of 47. My own problilities put the normal 47 year old woman clothing as the least likely, chicken outfit slightly ahead of that.

As to her actually showing up. For a while my own negative wishes and ideas were, I hope not. No expectations there, but I didn�t like the negative outlook. So 180. I do hope she shows up. Bring OM if she wants. I will talk to her if she leads that way. She has no power over me anymore. I choose to take the high road and will see how this day goes. I have no expectations of anything, it is a bit strange when compared to last year.

You are correct $150 is not worth making a stink over. You know you can control you, and only you. Two parts there.

You can�t control H. Trying to figure out or guess his next move is exhausting.

You can control you. Are you exercising that control? If these two transactions are really driving you crazy then ask him about them, or accept he can do that and let it go.

Your assumption that he is maybe trying to start a fight, could very well be. He could also be trying to start a peace, and really is out of his depth. He just wants to talk, maybe. I don�t know, but I can see what you are expecting.

Control. Find out what is going on, if you choose to. Then behave accordingly. Btw, no matter which way he is actually going, I think your response is, or should be, more or less the same. That may highlight the importantance of knowing his motives, vs knowing yourself.

(((Hugs)))

I�ll let you know how today goes. I have expectations I will do fine, well awesome actually. That is an expectation I know I can meet. Those are the goals and expectations I focus on.

DnJ

I didn�t see job�s post while typing. I agree with her practical advice regarding the credit card, and all the other advice and suggestions too. That gal has her head screwed on really well.

I also agree with the others

I would get rid of the joint account -pay it and let it go-
He probably wont bring that up anyway-

It is not easy going through all this the ping pong, his sudden niceness then distance and crazy behaviors
This is a difficult situation and you have been doing excellent all this time-

maybe take a few steps back
while you gather the tax stuff and get clarity on the upcoming conversation
visualize what you want--your best outcome and just think about that for a few days -b4 any talk-

I would continue to work on you
gaining more clarity

working on getting centered-however you do that

I use yoga-meditation, and listen to uplifting speakers-everyone has their way
make that be your priority for now and let the thoughts of him go-
wish him the best

see if you can get close and hear your inner peaceful wisdom, your intuition
you have all the answers already
follow it-

By letting go- you will get the balance you need and nothing he does will affect you-
at least that is the hope

DnJ, yes lots and lots of agitation. I get it. I get it now why this is so hard. You see patterns and behaviors and then you expect they will proceed in a linear fashion and they don't. You get unsettled, scared, and impatient and you think it is time to charge ahead, but really it is time to pull way, way back. I know the warnings about expectations. I thought I was on guard. But it doesn't hit you in the way you think it will. You think it means you will have expectations about wanting them to come back, but really you are all over the place. Wanting them to come back, terrified they will, seeing positive actions, and seeing negative ones (no contact with S for a week now). Peace summed it up perfectly: "It is not easy going through all this the ping pong, his sudden niceness then distance and crazy behaviors."

Job, I didn't consider that. I can see that he could use this chaos to keep me unsettled and to prevent me from moving forward with confidence. I can also see, as DnJ says that he is just trying to open a dialog and he doesn't know a less disordered way to do it. Either way, I need to move forward with confidence, on my agenda, focusing on the parts I control and letting the other parts go.

Peace, thank you, thank you, thank you! Yes I need to find my center and come back into myself. I think I will do some walking and listening to a new book. I will leave the house and go out and do some things with friends and have some people over. I will pull into my self, but also reach out.

On the credit card thing. My situation has been very different than most (recognizing that things could change). Mine has a high income and is cheap, cheap, cheap. All of the signs of his cheapness are still there. This card has a $30k credit limit. I have two other cards in my name only and some store cards. I don't have balances on any of these cards. With my bank, I can order how the accounts come up. I have the joint card set up so I see the balance every time I log on. Since the balance should be zero, I immediately check every time it isn't. I log on frequently because of OD (and my daughter who tends to burn through her monthly money-something I'm working on).

My lawyer drilled into my head that divorce destroys credit. She advised me to use the joint card if he ever messes with money again. It is, in essence, a line of credit for me. If I close it, then I don't have that. If I remove him, the limit drops. If I don't have this account, I have no recourse if he stops paying other than motions in court, which will take 60-90 days.

I'm certain that his use of this card was not about needing money, and was only about provoking some kind of communication (or like Happy Again, testing that I would not explode). Now that I think about it, had he wanted to make me mad, he would have used the card to buy a gun, or alcohol, renew his OLD account, or take some woman out to eat or on vacation. He didn't. He bought a science magazine subscription and donated to a political candidate (the same one I will vote for). I do think this was about wanting communication. My guess, now that I reached out to organize a meeting (which had nothing to do with these charges or the alcohol discussion with S--but he doesn't know that), he will not need the crazy stuff to catch my attention.

I'm not going to agonize too much about this discussion. It may not happen. I want it to be organic and give him the chance to say what we wants. I will lead the parts of it as DnJ suggests on the topics of concern to me. I'm going to let him contact me. He needs the taxes to be filed jointly (I don't). He will come at some point. He will either come with a mind to sell or he won't. He will either work with me on the agreement, or he won't. I'll be fine either way. I just need to remember that. Nothing is different today.

I'm going to keep my eyes moving forward and try to ignore the bombs he is setting off in my peripheral vision. The one thing I can proudly report, is that he has not seen my crazy cycling. The only contact he has had from me is the dates that S is available and a request to discuss the sale of the house and sign the taxes. No follow up emails, no calls, just those two.

OneArt,

Because I'm unfamiliar with your H's "norm" I'm just curious about the potential simple reasoning:

Is it possible that he misplaced his "regular" credit card, and used the joint one instead? It sounds like this is unlikely because perhaps he'd have alerted you if this was true. Or is it perhaps possible that he legitmately just pulled out the wrong card? I always keep certain cards in certain slots in my wallet. If I accidently swapped them I wouldn't notice if I used the wrong one because I move by habit.

You of course know him best, so you and Job are likely correct in this is some possible button-pushing.

BTW, I LOVED your first paragraph because it's just so accurate. I'm going to copy and paste it for when I'm wondering why things aren't staying the same. It's a reminder I need to expect change at every turn, and not sweat it.

Hi Yail, I do that stuff all the time. But no, this is not possible. Save a message he sent me through the card in Dec. 2016 (taking OW1 out to eat on our 25th Anniversary and using that card, despite having ceased using it at the beginning of the prior month), he has not used it as a regular card since early Nov. 2016. I don't believe it is in his wallet (I've been with him recently when he opened it) and if it is, it is a mistake that he has not made in 28 months. Hard to believe he would make that same mistake twice in under a week, while simultaneously sending up other smoke signals indicating that he was trying to get my attention.

Thanks guys for your support during my episode. Back to normal today. Great day. Got lots done. I think having a mini breakdown every once in a while can be quite cathartic.

Oneart

Agree with you and job H is trying to get your attention

And totally agree that breaking down and letting it all out is d@mn good for the soul

OD is up to something for sure.

He has not contacted S in two weeks (he contacted him daily the week before). He never got back to me with the dates he wanted to see S (which he promised last week). Despite saying we could "get together" this week to discuss various items and complete taxes, he has not contacted me. He has not gone this long without contacting one of the kids or me since at least summer of 2017. I have only two days I can see him, and today is one of them.

There have not been further charges on my credit card, but he did pop up in my email from the OLD again (this is something he did a lot last summer during his cycling period). I had not gotten one of these things in several months.

The stuff he is doing now feels very similar to the stuff he did August-December of last year. The subtle/passive aggressive attempts to get me to contact him. When I last spoke to him (other than a brief exchange in the driveway) I asked him not to disappear on S again, he assured me he would not, and said he wanted to be in S's life. I can't help but feel even that is an attempt to get me to contact him.

He knows I want to discuss the sale of the house and "other things" which he has to know is separation/divorce. I made it clear we would do the taxes at the same time. He doesn't know it but the tax change resulted in a significant decrease in the amount of his withholding and as a result if we don't jointly file he is up you know what creek, whereas I get money back.

I've made it clear I had some things to discuss and would do the taxes at the same time. He said he could get together. He has now gone off the radar (though I confirmed he is not out of town). I don't feel like chasing him down to get this down (and frankly think if he is avoiding me it won't do any good anyway) and he will probably try to do it digitally (where he tends to be much meaner). S seems to be doing ok (at least as far as I can tell, but I don't want to bring it up in case he isn't really thinking about it).

Have to admit, I'm slightly worried about OD. So sick of his drama.

I may be wrong, but he's gone MIA because he knows that you want to have an adult discussion about the taxes and the sale of the home, as well as any other things related to a separation/divorce. He's going to "hide" until he thinks that you aren't focusing on a separation/divorce and the sale of the house. They do this quite often. He thinks, out of sight, out of mind and they bury their heads in the sand when it comes to doing what needs to be done.

Well, it does rather work if you think about it. Sad if he has to avoid his son rather than just come and say what he wants to do, or even that he doesn't know what he wants to do. I just look at him as the gift that keeps on giving. I think the taxes will flush him out eventually. He hasn't gone complete lawbreaker yet.

I spoke too soon. Since I didn't b!tch at him about the last political contribution he has just done another (and from the looks of it, I'm guessing it will be a monthly recurring charge). I am literally laughing as I type this.

Job, you know how you've said sometimes they sneak back in. Could he be sneaking in through my bank account? Will the entirety of his check accidentally be deposited in my account next month?

They certainly have ways to "sneak" back in. Time will tell just what he's up to. You have to shake your head and laugh about some of the things that they do. They are so obvious at times.

Job, I am at a loss for how to deal with the latest. It doesn't upset me, hurt me, etc. I'm just so tired of games and trying to understand what he is doing here.

He promised to respond to my email with S's schedule (showing commitments and days off) through the start of school last week. I had asked him to pick some times he wanted to see S so I could make sure we didn't schedule anything else (and because I wanted him to see that S was going to be gone most of the summer so he could plan accordingly). In the interim I asked to meet about selling the house, taxes, and other stuff. He didn't send me the response about S. He said we could get together to discuss the things I wanted this week, but gave no days or times. He has not followed up about that.

So today he sends me a spreadsheet with his work schedule for the next several months. In the past, when he said he was done with OW1, he sent me his work schedule once or twice and then it became a state secret again. When he was circling in between OW1 and OW2 he sent me his work schedule, and then again I was not allowed to know that.

Why he would send me this now instead of answering the question of when he wants to see S is annoying. I'm quite sure he has other "commitments" than the exact times he is working. And, since he hasn't contacted S in weeks, suffice it to say that S is probably not his highest priority.

I don't know what to do. I hate this stupid game with his vague emails that tell me nothing. I don't want to have to keep communicating with him just to find out what day he can come or if he still plans to. I want to write and say why did you bother sending me your work schedule. How is that relevant to when you want to see S?

I should probably respond and say we can discuss when you come this week (hint hint you haven't said when). But why bother? Is he playing games with me trying to get me to chase him, or he is just depressed and incapable of performing simple tasks?

OneArt,

He's still not thinking on all cylinders. Your h thinks that he is helping you by sending you his spreadsheet. Here is what I would do if I were having to deal w/someone who can't get it together. BTW, I don't think he is capable of comprehending what you are asking of him at the moment.

Here is what I would do if I were having to deal w/someone who can't get it together. I would make up a calendar and indicate all of the commitments that your son has. I would make sure you had a copy posted on the frig, etc. and send it to him. Advise him that this is your son's schedule for the rest of the school year and summer and also be advised that if something else should come up, you will update the calendar and send him the update. By doing this exercise, you can always refer back to it and remind him to check the calendar for availability for visits w/his son. Trust me, if he really wants to see his son, he will make the effort...but it sounds like he is truly depressed and can't get out of his own way to a clear path.

As for the discussion about the house, etc., send him a text and give him a date and time to be at your house to have this discussion. Advise him, that unless, he meets w/you, you are going to move forward on getting your taxes done...which could mean filing separately and him having not getting a refund.

OneArt, sometimes, you have to try something different. If he is like most of the MLCers, if he thinks that he will either have to pay taxes or not get a refund because he didn't work w/you, he just may meet w/you at a designated date and time.

I went ahead and thanked him for the schedule (he had taken a calendar and put the days he was working, then in a different color he put the days son has commitments) and asked him if a particular day worked for our talk. He responded immediately and even gave me a time. I knew he'd respond (although he surprised me with how quickly), but I guess I am sick of all the games and the timidity and constant temp checking to see if I'm going to attack him. I can see those Happy Again posts in what he is doing here. How do people have the patience for this stuff? How do you pretend not to see what is in front of your face?

I plan to be very truthful with what I am feeling about selling the house (pro and con), my concerns about our D and wanting to get her a place, the need for the separation contract in view of those things, be matter-of-fact about the taxes, and just ask him if he's given any thought to which days he'd like to see S. I plan to tell him about some of my own plans with the kids (renting a car and exploring the NE touring colleges) and going to Europe to watch D perform and see the sights with her. Maybe getting in some whitewater rafting with S (something we all used to enjoy). I imagine these things will make him sad to miss, but that was his choice.

I'm going to try very, very hard not to be angry, raise my voice at all, mention his choices, or ask anything of him (except sign the form for the taxes and give me the money for his under-withholding). I think he's going to try to have a relationship talk. He has tried the last two times I have met with him and I shut him down. This time I may let him do it. I get the feeling he has things he wants to say (mostly excuses for why he did what he did). I'm going to try very hard to say, yes I understand that is how you feel, etc. I just think he needs to say this stuff.

If any of you remember my infamous talk with him in the summer of 2017, it probably won't go to plan (I had big plans then too not to engage--literally lasted 1 minute when he said "we can do this the easy way or the hard way, I'll just quit my job and litigate you into the ground). I do think I'm a lot calmer since then. Oh well, I hope I can at least report emotional progress when it is over.

OneArt........

I know that typically we don�t do much laughing here, but I laughed when you said you think of H �as the gift that keeps on giving� ....... they certainly have a way about themselves, don�t they.

SKM

If he shows up for the meeting, keep your points short and to the point. His concentration level is that of a gnat. They can't handle a lot of talking and begin to tune you out. So, to get your points across, keep each item very short and sweet. Count to ten before you lose your patience and remember, you aren't dealing w/an adult, but a man still on a child's level when it comes to business. If he acts unsure of what you've said, ask him to tell you what he heard from you. Try to keep your voice calm and level and definitely look him in the eyes when you are speaking to him. After the conversation, follow up with a text or email stating what took place and what has now been agreed upon.

I will be thinking of you and hoping you can at least get some answers, if not all of them in this one meeting.

What I am about write here is not DB. Everything that happened is my fault and by poking, I knew what the response would be. This is a play that occurs in two acts. During the intermission, he insisted on picking up son from school and then I picked him up from local car dealer for his car brand to have service done. This brand has a dealer in the town where he lives. This happened on his off week. If you don't like gore, look away. If you can't help but look when you drive by wreckage, get some popcorn.

He showed up a little early. He was dressed up in a button down shirt he has had for years and one of the two pair of new pants I have seen since our talk in his town (the pants were too tight at purchase). I was on the third floor so I called down that the door was open. It look him at least 5 minutes to come up. I didn't get any sense that he was using the bathroom (you can hear the water even on the third floor). I gather he was roaming the rooms on the way, because he asked where something was (that was off a patio that you can't see from the front--clearly he had seen it and knew exactly where it was).

He finally made it to the third floor. The beard is back. I rather figured it would be. I noted the depressive nature of his behavior with S, as did S in the two weeks before this visit. I commented on the beard for the first time. Using my disapproving voice, I said, "oh, the beard is back." I said something about his jawline in reference to the beard. He said it was for a change (he's sported it pretty much the last two years).

We sat in our more informal living space. For the first hour the talk was friendly and easy. I talked about our D. Showed him a picture that had been published of her that is very cool. I saw he had new glasses. Reminded me of the government issue type my father used to wear. Not the $800 frames he has worn for years. I say, "new glasses." He says yes, I got them at Costco (remember he took me off the Costco card with no notice and this is how I found out he moved in with OW2--the rep turned the screen to show me I wasn't on the account and I saw the address). I say I imagine son told you about his glasses. He said yes. I said we couldn't get them at Costco since I don't have a membership (ok, I do, with my mom). I tell him where we got S's glasses (S had already told him this and OD had said why didn't you just go to Costco, they are cheaper there, so I knew the setup). I show him a picture of S in glasses.

Despite sending me his work schedule (which he only did in February 2017, while circling in, before taking up with OW2) he never said when he could see son. He brings up S's spring break. I say he'd like to do something with you. Why don't you take him to (a place he took son at 8 and they had a great time). He says I'd like to work with him on his driving and get his test done. I say he is not taking his test until end of summer. I don't want to pay for his insurance early since he will be gone three months. He keeps pushing at it. I realize it is because he thinks I'm going to let S drive to his town, so Mr. Lazy can stay there. No plans are made.

He says what about the taxes. So I tell him how much is owed and explain his under-withholding. I tell him how much we will each pay if we file separately. I will get a refund, he will owe big time (lots of money folks). He just says he's not surprised goes on a rant about Trump and once again blames me for his election for watching Season 1 of the Apprentice. He has done this many times over the last couple of years. I say, well at least I've never slept with someone who voted for him (OW1 did). He look chagrined. Nothing is resolved about taxes. I never show him the documents and we never discuss what if anything I am paying.

We talk about some issues D has. He asks if I've ever heard of this company that put out the stupid self-help videos he used to send the kids. I say yes, he's rather a controversial figure. He said that's just because philosophers are mad he found a way to make money. I say psychologists think he is doing a lot of damage. He says something about me thinking everything he thinks is stupid.

We then discuss why I don't want her living in the dorms, that she will live in this city for the rest of her life, housing is only getting more expensive, as a performer she will never have a regular job, etc. I say I want to buy her a place there, also so I can visit her more, and I expect S will go to college in that area as well--across the country from here). He mentions his theory that said city will be underwater in 30 years. I say you sound like your grandmother (a very negative woman always worrying the sky is falling). He says I can't give you any more money. I say I know, I wasn't asking you too (sort of).

He says something like, so you want to sell the house. I explain how it came about. How I want the money for D's apartment. I dive in and tell him I need all the equity from the house. Why I'm worried about housing prices falling, which of course he is too. For the first time he seems ok with me buying D a place. He seems to think I'm telling him that I will move there. I clear that up. He asks how much places cost where she is. I tell him. I say this is why I need all the equity. He had previously offered me 75% (I don't feel bad asking for all. The down payment came from a house that I sold to move here that I was the titled owner on--he didn't have income that would help at time of purchase. He lived here 30 days. He has said repeatedly how much he hates this house). He makes some depressing comments that suggest that he is contemplating or has contemplated suicide. He says what's the point, you can't take it with you. He says I don't care about money. I say I know you don't. I want to be fair, but I also want my kids to have the lives they could have lived but for your choices. He says I can have all the equity.

He says repeatedly he wants me to sell this place and sit on the money and wait a year or two (until after the election to see what happens). He mentions me buying a condo. I say I'm not buying a condo. I'm buying a house for me. He asks why I would do that (maintenance and all). I say where I'm moving there aren't a lot of condos. He tries to get me to tell and I tell him it isn't relevant and not something he needs to know. I think this angers him. To this point there has been zero mention of OW2 or the town where he lives or anything like that.

He says, at some point I'd like to be divorced. I said then why did you dismiss the divorce. He says, I didn't, you did. I am literally in shock. Am I on Candid Camera? Did h@ll just freeze over? What happened here? I see it is pointless to argue this point. I say, well you've been the impediment. I asked you here today because I need the separation contract to sell the house. Once we have that, we can file and be final in three months on the divorce.

He says is that all the issues? I say no. I want the kids covered on your insurance until they are 27. He says I don't know if that will work. I say its a federal law. He says I know (but never explains why it is a problem). At some point he says his job tried to pull him out of where he is a year ago and send him to a rural location close to where his entire family lives. (I know this is exactly when OW1 texted me that she was moving back to the area and they would be working in the same hospital--at that point I realize they are worried with him shacking up with so many hospital employees). I say why didn't you go? He said I still have work to do where I am. I am staying another year or two. I have built a great team. (This hospital is very poorly ranked. I have no idea why he has any sense of esteem from this). I say that seems an odd reason to stay, the moment you are gone that team will fall apart anyway. He says I know. Then he says he didn't want to commute (implying he would still be living in craptown with OW2).

I say there is also the matter of S's college. He is back to S needs to go to a cheap school. I say if S gets into an Ivy and wants to go there for his activity (which is predominantly done at ivies) then that is what he will do. He says he's going to get a scholarship right. I said I hope so with all the time and money I've invested in this activity, but if he doesn't the agreement needs to specify what you will pay up to. He says we'll just say we will agree on it later. I said no, I don't want anything open-ended in this agreement. He says one of us should check into the cost of full tuition and room and board at our State School (one of the top in the country and strong in his activity and one S may attend). I say one of us already did (does he think I'm a moron) and I say it is ________. He says ok then I will pay up to the full cost of that and you can pay any difference. I'm actually fine with that.

And he says, wait for it, ok, I will look at the agreement and get back to you. I feel my heart sink. I feel all hope leave my body. I feel time and space crashing in on me. This is exactly the same thing I have been hearing for the last 2.5 years. He leaves to get S.

I'm distraught. Not sure what to do. I reach out to a local LBS. I tell her what happened. I explain that I am done with limbo. That I don't want to be married to this man and I see no way out. I tell her I must do something. Something drastic. And then I wait.

He returns. I take him to the car dealer. I still don't understand why he would want or need to get his car serviced in our town when he can do that in his. I assume he must be taking a driving trip the following day. Why else the rush? On the way back home, "our song" comes on the radio. I quickly shut it off. Small talk. We return upstairs. The talk resumes. I'm determined to push him out of limbo.

I say to him when I talk to you I always have a sense that you are wearing a mask and that you have armed yourself for battle. I have never hurt you. I have never given you any reason to distrust me. I say I feel like there is a disconnect between your words and your actions and it is preventing us from going anywhere. I also feel, even though I don't see you often or know much about your life, that you are profoundly depressed. I say S said you were depressed when he last saw you and then you didn't contact him for two weeks. He says he was tired. I say what is the main symptom of depression. He says listen, you aren't a doctor and you don't have an MD after your name (recall that he does). You are not going to diagnose me. I say I have eyes and I can read. The rest is pretty apparent.

He says I just don't like you. I don't like talking to you. I don't like being near you. I'm not going to open up to you. I said I think you have a problem being vulnerable with anyone. I think you don't like me because I'm the only person that sees the real you behind the lies and manipulation. I say I think there is a good person in there somewhere, but he is very lost. He says he was just miserable in our marriage. I say people don't stay married to people for 25 years when it is a misery. He says he knows people who have been in miserable marriages for 40-50 years. I say they must be getting something out of it to stay or it must not be as miserable as they let on. I say I imagine that if anyone asked you to name 10 things about yourself, at least one of them would be that you consider yourself a scientist and you are inquisitive. Yet when it comes to this topic, you are anything but. I say you didn't split yourself in half and conduct a double blind study on the source or your unhappiness or depression. No, you just woke up one day, decided you were unhappy, looked over and saw me standing there, and decided it was easier to blame me for anything rather than have to look at yourself. Why is a guy who wants to know the reason behind everything so content to do nothing to work on himself or examine why he became an alcoholic at 48 or abandoned his kids, when the version of himself at 21 who just came out of that said he would never, ever do that. The things you do and the things you say are very typical of men who walk out on their families in middle age, take up addictions, display a shocking lack of empathy, and do nothing to demonstrate remorse for their actions.

He says look, I have been with OW2 since (names date in spring 2017--the exact date I had figured they started dating based on how he treated me and the kids). We are very much in love and we are going to be together for a long, long time. I realize that this date is part of his changes over the last several weeks. I can only imagine there was some pressure to finalize our divorce as a result. I also feel like this is his way of implying they are engaged. He says, unsolicited, there are no other women. I am not involved with OW1 (not sure why he brought her up). I am not on dating sites. I say the gaslighting is not going to work where I get your profile in my mailbox on a weekly basis and the picture is clear. The shirt is one I bought, the glasses are the ones you wore for 5 years. I don't care if you cheat on OW2. I just don't understand why you are lying about this and how you think you can sit here and try to sell me this crap.

I also don't understand if you are so in love and happy, why you are always doing creepy things to get my attention. Of course he denies everything. I say why are you suddenly making purchases on my credit card. I see the smile he does when I catch him in a lie. He says it must be associated with the account. I say this is a candidate in 2020, why would it be associated with anything (I've also thoroughly checked the site and there is no account, each donation is a separate purchase). He did another of these purchases in the time he went to pick up S, so I know it was to get me to say something. He says why didn't you tell me. I said I'm telling you right now. I said you also need to change the payments on _____ (list out everything I'm paying including car insurance, life insurance, etc). He says I'll take care of those.

He starts getting antsy about not hearing about his car and whether it is done to pick up son from activity. He calls them and they say they will call back.

He then says something to defend OW2s honor. He says I am making unreasonable demands in not letting S go to his town or meet this woman. I say this is not the kind of situation my son is walking into. You and I clearly have different morals and value systems. Son is sensitive and has no interest in meeting this woman, going to your town, or having anything to do with that part of your life. He again makes the woman sound like an angel (same thing he used to do about OW1 who he later called a bunny boiler, but now denies saying that too). I say she's a whore. She knowingly got together with a married man, she moved that man into her house with her minor children. You are living your parent's life. Your mother did this to you as a child and you previously said how much it scarred you. He says he has a great relationship with his parents. I say before I met your mother you said she was certifiably insane (and she is) and that I should never speak to him. He said I'm not discussing the past.

At some point we talk about the kids and that D won't talk to him. All the things I told him in the nice part of the conversation are now coming back at me with attacks. He's calling the children lazy, spoiled, entitled. He says S is a bad driver and I'm not doing my part. He tells me I'm a domineering helicopter parent trying to control everything about their lives. I simply say, I'm not a helicopter parent and you know it. I say you never, ever thank me for all I have done. I had all of this dumped on me with no say. I stayed.

I get rather upset. I say you may be able to end my marriage unilaterally, destroy my family unilaterally, change my future unilaterally, but you don't get to tell me how to think or feel or accuse me of being a bad parent. I then rattle off a litany of things I have had to deal with for the children, their pain, etc.

He gives me a look of absolute disgust and hatred. He says that is the most self-serving, pathetic, narcissistic rant I have ever heard in my life and I am embarrassed for you. This stops my tears cold. I say which part. What did I say that is not true. I am a lawyer. I deal with facts and evidence. You don't get to keep making these offensive, generalizing statements and placing blame without supporting anything you say. He says all of it. I say not good enough. I say your kids don't want anything to do with you because you refuse to show remorse for anything you have done. You stock answer is leave the past in the past and get over it. He makes one of his stupid stoic quotes that he thinks absolves him from responsibility. I say do you ever have your own thoughts. Do you ever apologize for anything. He said, I'm going to pray for you. I said you, the lifelong atheist who told me I was ridiculous for being an agnostic are going to pray for me? I said do you know how warped it is that you mirror whoever it is that you are with. I say who are YOU. What part of you is the same or consistent. I said I'm the same person, with the same core values I've been my whole life. My opinions are my own. He said and that's really sad.

I say your daughter is never going to speak to you until you do something to address her pain. This isn't even about the past anymore. You carry this into your future like a big chip on your shoulder. If every day is a new start with no past in it, why do you carry grudges against her and why do you refuse to give her what she needs to get over this. I said look at this from an academic perspective. You don't want to show remorse or apologize for the things you've done. I am adult and I have accepted that. I have forgiven you in the way that allows me to move on. I still think you owe me an apology and you own me remorse. I just don't expect to get it. He says I said sorry and that is all I can do. I said sorry is for when you put the roll of toilet paper on wrong. Apologies and remorse need to match the measure of the wrong. From this point he made it all about me needing an apology and I was pathetic for needing anything from him and I should just move on. I said I'm telling you your daughter needs this. Whether you think it is right or wrong, whether you think it is necessary or not, she needs it and you are refusing to give it to her and that is quite cruel. I said she's like you. She hides her emotions but they are there. I say I sent her a postcard every day for a year just to let her know she was loved and missed and I was thinking about her. He said and that is really pathetic.

He then said I can't do anything if she won't talk to me. I have no way to get in touch with her. I said I have given you her address many times. You have emailed her. He says I don't know if the email goes through. I said I have told you it does because I have mentioned to you things you have sent her. He said admit I could contact her every day and she could still never respond. I said or you could send her one truly heart-felt and truly remorseful and compassionate letter and she might find a way to forgive you.

At this point they call and say the car is ready. He runs downstairs. I take my time and come down. We are driving over there and out of the blue he says, I'm never, ever coming back. I will never come back. I say yes you will, and I'm such a sap I'll probably let you. He gives me this look like I'm insane. I drop him off and say have a nice day. He goes and gets S and takes S right home.

Later S tells me on the way home OD says, is there anything reasonable (putting limits you see) to improve our relationship? S says yes, you can move closer. OD hems and haws and gives reasons why he can't. S says well, then you need to accept that you made choices that I don't agree with and choices have consequences, and you just don't care enough to be in my life. OUCH.

So, after all of this, I felt rather beat up. Self-inflicted I know. But I had to do something. When he said the part about I'm never, ever coming back, he freaked me out. I had read before somewhere that they say this when they are very torn and conflicted and want to come back. Why the need to say it? To blurt it out? Very odd. Figured I would push him with my response.

So he was off the next several days. Logical thought, if it were me, having gone through this, I would be like I need to get this stuff taken care of immediately so I can dump this crazy and get on with my happy life with OW2. We discussed that the house needs to go on the market soon and that repairs need to be done that will take a little time, and nothing can happen without the agreement. So what does OD do the following day? Is he on a driving trip with OW2 for the big vacation he said he needed because he was so tired he couldn't spend his usual 20 seconds texting S.

This is OD's timeline for the following day:

In the am I get a text from the dealership where he took the car for service. I have never been to this dealership. I have never owned this brand of car. I did not have this phone number when we purchased the car. The phone number is new since I kicked OD out. Why am I getting a text at this number for his car service?

Then hear from D that he has sent her a video. No text. None. It is from the same place I told him that I didn't like. It was on an issue I told him during our discussion that affects her.

In the early afternoon I log onto my business bank account. It says there was a log in a couple of hours previously. I call the bank. Yes, OD has accessed my business bank accounts. He knows I just got a big profit check. This will doubtless pop into a tax conversation, though he will not admit to doing this and if pushed he will deny. No one else could have done it. OD had all the info necessary to break in. I immediately set up two factor identification. Check personal back account. Suspect, but not as clear, that he has made an attempt to get in here as well. Change all info to things he could never figure out.

In the evening he texts S a video of a fire. Something like one way to get rid of an old fence. Calls it fire fun. Writes, wish you were here with me. The video is in her backyard I'm sure. I watch it to make sure there is no video or audio of OW2. Just a fire burning. Clearly trying to p!ss me off and trying to normalize his living situation with OW2 to S. S tells me about the following day. Says mom he was clearly trying to send you a message and I know it had nothing to do with me (and S really has no idea about our discussion, only was wondering why OD picked up him twice but didn't spend any time with him). I said S it is wrong for parents to use their children to hurt each other or deliver messages. If this continues, I will ask you to block him. He said don't worry, I will. I don't even pay attention to his texts. I don't care if I ever get them.

So OD was at home, not on the road. Why take the car for service here. Why not use the day to switch over the accounts or look at the agreement and respond to me. We have no agreement on taxes. Why not try to get that resolved. He will have to contact me before tax day. I will not be contacting him. There are no plans for him to see S during spring break. S will likely not respond to any texts arranging to meet, because he does not normally and has said he wants to spend spring break camping with his best friend.

This feels very much like the OD from the very beginning. Very much like the OD who was spinning crazily out of control from the summer on after the divorce was on file. I don't believe in blaming the OW, but I strongly believe there is some pressure going on there and he is monstering at me because he can't monster at her.

While I hope all this will galvanize him to act, I don't believe for a moment it will. My phase of trying to be nice to OD is over. From now on, all he hears from me, is we resolved all terms and I'm waiting for the final agreement from you. We have nothing more to discuss.

I have read the entire "script". Here's my take on it:

1. He doesn't want to put the kids on his insurance because he would have to pay more for the "family" plan vs. a single plan.

2. I found it quite interesting that he hates the house, but will not do anything to help you get it sold...however, he then wants it sold and for you to sit on the money for a while. He is still trying to control your life from afar.

3. As for the dealership having your number...I went through that myself. They do this to aggravate us in a passive-aggressive way. Yes, he could have had the car serviced in his town, but he preferred to have you wait on him and play taxi.

4. File your taxes separately and leave him to his own mess. You can't keep taking care of him. You are not his mother. His tax situation is of his own making.

5. Going into the systems and looking at your accounts, especially your business account is not good. It's good that you changed all of the account passwords.

6. My xh said he was never ever coming back and he didn't. Your h saying that is telling you that in his mind, he is absolutely sure he's not coming back and he wants to end it, but he doesn't have the guts to do it all himself. I wouldn't look for him to file any time soon, if ever. It looks like you will have to do the heavy lifting if you want to cut the ties w/him.

7. He doesn't think that you will call his bluff on anything. He enjoys playing w/your mind and emotions.

Your h is trying to control and manipulate you and your kids. In the back of his mind, he wants to keep you right where he left you in case things do not work out w/his women and financial standing. I know what I'm about to saying isn't DBing, but you've put up w/enough nonsense from him since he left. You've attempted to be the nice person in all of this, now it's time to start thinking about your and your kids and leave your sorry h out there. If I were in your shoes, I'd file separately and leave him to take of his own taxes. I would begin to separate everything in the way of credit cards and any and all financial dealings. I don't know about in your state, but in my state, after two years, you can file. Of course, had my knuckle head stated he was committing adultery, he could have filed within a year...but he didn't want to look bad in court or have that on divorce decree.

Seriously, this guy is pushing for you to do all of the heavy work. Try to remember...the more you try to rationalize w/him the more irrational he will be in his passive-aggressive way. You can't push them out of limbo because they are so stubborn and it gets old w/the lbs very quickly and we tend to lose sight of what we want done because we are focusing on their crazy making behavior. Turn your focus back on what is important right now...your taxes and keeping your accounts safe, secure and private.

Ok - you already know you blew it from a DBing point of view - I kept wanting to yell "drop the rope!"

You got him to agree about the house equityand to say he wanted the divorce - I recommend you get that agreement drawn up ASAP and get him to sign it while he's still amenable.

Get the divorce done as soon as you can - its time to be financially free. But don't put the house up for sale until you have his signature on a binding agreement giving you the equity.

Btw I hope you weren't serious about taking him back - but that may have been brilliant strategy to push him to prove you wrong by moving ahead with the divorce.

Remember he has years of work on himself ahead of him before he'd be anyone you'd want to be with, and he shows no sign of doing that work. Get yourself out of financial limbo, nothing about the divorce prevents him from returning in the future if he's capable.

Wow, One! I don�t blame you feeling a little beat up. Those are some exhausting interactions.

I think you did a good thing by poking the bear a bit. Clearly he isn�t going to do anything on his own. I don�t think he�s capable.

I hope you can get the agreement signed ASAP and he doesn�t go back on his word.

I hope things have leveled out and you are feeling tip top.

Thank you Job, KML and Pax.

I don't regret anything I said to him. Not one word. I felt raw from experiencing the hatred and the anger (it has been years since I got it in person), but I was pretty tough throughout. In fact when he first said the word divorce I laughed. I don't understand how he still believes that this a threat to me. Today I feel great. I went for a drive around a beautiful local lake (unfortunately I recently learned that a notorious serial killer had killed two people there).

I have removed him from the accounts that I can. Our bank is also our insurance company. They have members all over the world and very few branches. They are pretty much open 24/7 and just about everything can be done online. I recently had to have my mom take me off her accounts (when the divorce was pending) so those things would not be considered my assets. They did it with a phone call confirming that I wanted to be taken off. He could have done this very easily and has now had several days to do it.

He sent S one of his test texts today to see if he has been blocked. I just find that sad. No words, just an article from a newspaper. Just a way to make sure the text went through.

I looked up our last very nasty exchange. It was in November 2016 (I later learned 22 days after he and OW1 broke up). In that exchange he told me he was never, ever coming back (I had forgotten that), and that he and OW1 were madly in love, that he was in very good hands, and that he wanted a divorce as quickly as possible. Seeing that again is just another reminder that this will not go anywhere. He kept that ruse up for another two months.

I do think he and OW2 are almost over. I don't say that with hope, quite the opposite. I think it is why he can't let go. If he were blissfully happy and ready to move on forever, things wouldn't go this way. He was being flirty and kind up until the point I would not tell him where I was moving and said it wasn't really his business anymore. That was the beginning of the nastiness, and the first mention of divorce.

KML, you asked if it was strategy. Absolutely. Job suggested a few months back asking if he wanted to move home. I couldn't do it. I wasn't ready for the nasty tirade I think. This time I welcomed it. In the interim I realized that all of his relationships have been based in fantasy and that reality is what has tended to cause problems. In view of that, it occurred to me that the "option" of moving home was perhaps another fantasy, and that if I made that option real to him, he might realize definitively it is not what he wants. I have mused on this several times recently on my thread. The concerning part is that while he gave me the crazy look. He did not say, that will never happen or that I was nuts or anything else.

He had tried to hack into another of my financial accounts on my birthday (they are all on massive lock-down now). When I met him in his town shortly after I brought this up. He said, "which one?" I now realize he asked that because he has done several. But he also knew that I knew about it. I think he just wanted to provoke another reaction. Just like the other things he did the day after. Some sign that I'm still on the hook after the "discussion."

I'm torn about the taxes. I would like to make him file single, but I suspect that he will just short my check, crying poor for having to pay the taxes. Also, I said I would jointly file and going back on my word, even to him, is something I don't think I'm willing to do. It is important to me that he sees me acting as though this exchange changed nothing. I don't want him to feel any more power from this. That I am still looking for a cordial and civil resolution (which I am). My best chance of getting this wrapped up is through his desire to see himself as a good person.

He has to contact me in the next two weeks. It won't be in person. He is too fearful. I will gauge my response by his approach. If I haven't heard from him by the 10th, I'll tell my accountant to prepare for a single, HOH file.

Forgot to mention, he referred to himself as old several times during our discussion and said he was not able to physically do the hiking, etc. that son wants to do with him. From the beginning of his MLC he talked about how young he looked for his age, how fit he was, etc. In the early days after he left, he claimed to be a big hiker and outdoorsman (though he had never been before), bought lots of books on hiking, and said his lifelong desire to do these things (never shared with me), and my "refusal" to do them (not sure how you can refuse to do something you weren't asked to do, and I was the one taking the kids ziplining, whitewater rafting, and hiking the falls near our old home), as one of the reasons we were incompatible. Today he texted S and again referred to himself as old. I also see that the passion for exclamation points has returned, but the once frequent use of ellipses has not. In all he sent son 3 texts today (after none during the prior two weeks).

He sounds like he is now at the stage whereby burning the candle at both ends may have ended if he's saying he's old. Depression will make you feel old, tired and sad. Maybe he doesn't realize he's depressed, but he sure sounds like it.

Whatever you decide to do, we will support you. You've definitely got a passive-aggressive man who still hasn't moved too far and is stuck in the mud and can't seem to get himself back on firmer ground.

As for sending your son 3 texts, I could be wrong, but he's afraid that all contact will be cut off after the talk over the weekend. He is still holding on by a thread to his pre-crisis life.

I wish I could offer you more advice, but you know him better than we do. Hang in there!

Job:

Thank you. I know that for the most part these perceptions are merely speculation, but as pertains to where OD is right now, I think the following are pretty accurate:

1. He is overtly depressed, very tired and highly mood reactive;
2. He is cycling between coming forward and pulling away;
3. He is completely unwilling/unable to look at any of his actions or what transpired in the past or try to make amends or resolve his internal conflicts about any of it;
4. He is still with OW2 and still drinking (again something he began at age 48, never having consumed any alcohol previously);
5. He is teenagery or rebellious about voicing how changed he is now;
6. He very much fears the loss of contact with S.

I think this is really all I can know now. His behavior since our talk is indicative:

Day 1 (after talk) he tried like mad to poke and prod to get a negative reaction from me (I did not respond, other than to lock down my accounts-which I assume he has figured out);
Day 2 he was silent (as far as I can tell);
Day 3 he was excessive in his contact with S (including an article on aging and another alluding to Odysseus) and using lots of punctuation to prove that he is indeed "happy" and likely testing to make sure he was not blocked; and
Day 4 another text to S (at 6:30 am no less) complete with good morning, I love you, did you get your homework done, have an excellent day, and rife with punctuation (four exclamation points and three question marks in all), again showing how gosh darn happy he is (see S and OA--you are wrong about the depression).

As for me:

I am way happier if I have no contact with him whatsoever.
I challenged several of his charges and have had credits issued.
I am determined to pay $0 toward his tax bill.

Hi One

A lot to process, but it seems like more of the same
Im sorry it didnt go better-

I don't sense he has done enough or any work to make a real move either way-

But you never know what the MLCer will do-He may surprise you and let go

I never thought my XH would file..it took him 1.5 years but he did and promply M Ow-

You probably have to let go again and work on you to really decide what you want and then figure out the best way to get it done-
I find my best decisions are made when I am grounded, centered intuitive-

All the best-

Thanks Peace. I went back and read again my last post and thought to myself, how different is this from the beginning? I would argue it is an issue of scale only.

I am working on stepping as far back as possible in every regard. I just have to get through the tax filing and then I'm going to make it clear that the only person I want to talk to about our relationship is his lawyer (I won't be lawyering up for the next round, I was writing all of my own pleadings anyway and will only consult with mine on particular issues). Not worrying about the cost will help me stay true to the course.

I had already resolved that I want to focus on what it is intuitive and organic. I want to stop indulging in flights of fantasy, and I don't want to have any hope of any kind as it regards him. To that end, I'm going to sign off until I get through this. My best to all of you for your kindnesses and support.

Job, can you lock this thread (looks like I'm about there anyway).

One

All the best

Take care of yourself

Best to you, One. I�ll be thinking of you and sending you peace. You are equipped for this next hurdle and can do this.

To echo Peacetoday, please take care of yourself in the process.

Best wishes to you One (((cwtch)))

Sending you positive thoughts and wishes.