WAS or What 10I just reread my first post of my previous thread and apart from some small modifications I could use it to start this thread. That says a lot in itself!!
Thanks SBJ and Gordie for your ongoing support and prayers
Gordie, i don't feel more trapped than before. I guess that because I am focusing on everything except my W that I can readily see a more fulfilling life without our poor interactions daily. In essencei sense that I have two paths ahead of me.
1. A better life with W
2. A better life without W.
I still have a preference for #1 but #2 is highly appealing too.
Another aspect of this concept is that I have greater self worth. I have little interest in spending time with people that don't want to or those that don't treat me right. I don't get upset of a friend doesn't reply to an invitation but I won't continue inviting him or her if that happens. I know W and kids are exceptions but anyone ANYONE else I could walk away from if mistreated. Don't worry I don't let kids and W mistreat me either.
My situation is complex with.many intertwining subtle factors that it isn't easy outline in a few words, but I hope that answered your question.
To briefly explain something else I stated yesterday about mini improvements observed. Following the guidelines in DB about setting mini objectives that if achieved show progress towards a main DB objective.WWell I have noticed a few of these, so there has been some progress.
However in recent months I have been less interested in.spending poor quality time with W nor putting in any effort to improve that time. The result has been less communication and less time together. I don't like that as it is the opposite of one of my goals BUT it has freed me up more quality ME time. Plus it is apparent she wants more. She seems frustrated at not doing more together and creates more opportunities for us to do stuff together. If I walk away due to not being interested in some poor behaviour or treatment more often than not she'll initiate something to break the ice. Whereas that is positive and not new, it never goes beyond restoring the status quo. I guess she doesn't want things to get worse but not ready to work towards making it better.
There are some other aspects to W that appear better. I imagine IS will be the last part to improve but if other stuff is going better within her, maybe that will lead her there.
I'll talk about me in a later post. Until then welcome to my latest thread. Best wishes
I said recently that I have continued changing and progressing towards different goals.
I have s small group of guy friends that I do stuff regularly with. Sometimes individually, other times with the group and occasionally with our families. I also have made some new friends through other activities and work. Do my social network is expanding.
I am in the process of changing work/jobs which is a big change. Last year I listed about 10 aspects I would like if I changed job. This one hit all 10. That's awesome! There are other criteria that mean it isn't
perfect but it's pretty close. My main reason to change is to have a decent and especially a regular paycheck every month.
Just back from holidays. We went to my home country and even visited some parts that I have never been to. That was cool. Credit to my W who took care of finding accommodation etc
Some great places.
I still go to meditation group weekly and really enjoy the group there. Signed up again for next year.
About six months ago I thanked my W for all she does for me and kids st home. I listed specific examples.since there has been an increase in those mentioned!!
At this stage I am approaching my fourth year anniversary of this crisis.
During the earlier days I went through some bad times....rreally bad. I have suffered the loss of my W and my M. It easmore painful than the months when my dad was dying of cancer and that was tough. My point being that my grieving for my M is done even if we are still together. I am sure that separating or D would not be smooth sailing nut I am confident I won't fall apart again. For me it is already done. A part from some logistical shitte, I don't fear that. It takes time to get to that place but it is liberating.
Over the last few months I have drafted a letter to W to state I am not interested in living this way much longer.it is more elaborated than that and isn't an ultimatum nor threat. Just stating how it is for me. I may or may not give it to her, but it is almost ready if I decide to go down that road. "Be prepared" as they day in the boy scouts!!
Got to go earn some money. I imagine that I will check in to the forum for the next week or so and then reconcentrate on other stuff. This is no reflection on you guys or this place just me prioritising my time.
Best wishes
Roist
You have been at this for four long years
I think that process of mourning what was your M is healthy and wonderful
You sound at peace within yourself
Congratulations on the new job
Re that letter
I understand the sentiment
What makes you want or not want to give it
Is it for you or for her
What does it say that you have not already said
What do you hope to achieve
Rooting for you whatever you choose
Hi G
Sooner or later I will decide that I will no longer live like this. Actually I have decided that I will not live this way indefinitely. I just haven't put any timeframe onto it. I trust I will know when I am there. No hurry. But ultimately it will come if things continue as is.
The letter is for me and has no intended objective for W except to let her know I am at a turning point. Michelle recommends that it one of her books. Raise the status level to maximum defcon level before walking away. I think that is fair.
Thanks for your interest
If I was advising myself as I would others here I would be telling myself to use those opportunities to connect more effectively. But I seem to be placing on hold such stuff. Maybe I just can't focus on the "mundane" issues before I know whether we will stay together or moreso whether I want to continue living disconnected. I do know that I could do so and my W is not going anywhere fast (though as we see here that can change quickly).
Fundamentally I want what I always wanted since coming here first. To reconnect with my W. But the status quo is bareable for her and me.
I think that my W is seeing from my consistent actions that our situation as it is doesn't interest me. That is what my previously mentioned letter was about too.
But recently I have been less present in some aspects of parenting too. Nothing major bit still not part of the new me that I have been working towards. So my situation is still affecting/influencing me despite being detached. My W has mentioned this too but instead of reacting with validation and good husbandly attitude, I wasn't able yo put aside my "not like this" mentality
Whereas part of me believes I am still on the best path and that for now connection isn't possible, I am curious how others read this.
Roist
To me you sound a little depressed especially the part about parenting
Not depressed in a clinical sense but lacking in motivation and energy and engagement
I know that feeling and think you and Mach1 previously advised when I felt that way
It was okay and understandable because you have been living under a prolonged period of stress
And that during these times maybe you just need a break from the situation
Maybe a solo vacaton or just a change of scenery and quiet for a day can do wonders to clear the mind
Or maybe a longer a week or a month where you say I am not going to DB or try to be a certain way
I am just going to be and let yourself recharge and reset before making any big decisions
Thanks for the input. I more or less already do that. I'll just take out my worn patience shovel and keep digging until I decide if I want to order a new one or not!
I came back here as sometimes posting clears my thinking. Probably due to having to formulate my thoughts before writing. But maybe my threads can serve to show others how long this process is and to show that limbo is survivable.
Best wishes everyone
Gordie. Just a word to say that you were right about taking a step back. Apparently that it exactly what I was doing and why I came back here. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees!! I can now see the forest and the huge mountain range it covers and more importantly my path.
I had slipped into a helpless victim mentality briefly forgetting that I am where I am at because or my decisions and especially my situation continues because I choose this path. It's a tough path that every now and again wears me down. I felt lost largely due to being disappointed about my attitude/mood. I wasn't being who I am. I acted differently because she didn't deserve more/better! It's an understandable sentiment but one that isn't serving me well.
Yesterday I read an article about generosity means loving a spouse when they least deserve it. It means taking off the score keeping glasses. I have in the past posted on my own and especially on others threads about how we should act in accordance to our own guidelines, ambitions and integrity. Not in reaction to how we are treated. This rang a bell.with me as before I spent a long time working out who I wanted to be and working towards this. I got hung up with my thinking of "not like this"and wasn't acting how I want to. That was my frustration more so than my situation.
I reread my last thread which helped me figure out this. Maybe I should revise all my threads to see what other god stuff I have forgotten!
Anyway I am feeling better. Thanks for reading
Best wishes
Roist
Hahaha
So true
That is why I was repeating advice you and others had previously given to me
Glad you are feeling better
Yes you and Ginger always remind me that I do have a say in this
That we can choose
And we are not powerless victims
Even if we feel like it sometimes
Glad to hear that taking a step back helped. I am finding that I need to do that all the time. What you wrote recently about the letter to your W and the part about parenting really struck home with me as I have felt that recently too. There have been a few days in the previous weeks that I have struggled with the parenting aspect. I have this vision of being the perfect parent in Ws absence and the kids and I have grown really close. Yet, on a few occasions I have struggled with being present with them. Forcing myself to engage with them when all I felt like doing was disappearing in to a back room and zoning out. Then I felt bad for feeling that way. I realized that on those days I was feeling a little depressed and exhausted...and like you described, being the victim. Understanding that is why I felt that way helped a lot.
Again, glad you are feeling better.
Thanks for the feedback Gordie and sjohn. Best wishes
Thanks Exquisitetobe for sharing this letter earlier.
Iknow every story is different with many similarities.
This is a letter wrote by a man who left is wife and kids for la-la land:
'Don't be me and live with regret': aman's letter to other men tempted to cheat 18:37 03/02/2015 admin
Jacob* left his wife of almost a decade for a woman he had been romancing online. But the grass wasn't greener on the other side. He shares his story with YOU.
"I was you 9 years ago.
Iwas married, had been with my wife for 15 years. Then I left her 2 months short of our 10 year wedding anniversary.
We were parents to two beautiful children, who are in their late teens now, but were only seven and nine years old when Iwalked out.
Itravelled for work, stayed in a different hotel at least three nights a week. That’s how I met Eve*.
We got to know each other over time. We became Facebook friends. We sent messages to each other all day and night. She was also married, also had two kids. We had so much in common, we soon fell inlove. I felt like she 'got' me.
This was all during a very trying time in my marriage. I wasn’t happy, I didn’t look forward to going home. My wife had put on weight, we hardly ever spoke, she always looked so miserable.
Little did Irealise that I was the reason she was so down and depressed. Ididn’t pay her any attention. I took her for granted. I was too busy wishing my life was more exciting, being romanced online, spending all of my free time thinking how I could get out.
Ibelieved she didn’t love me. I convinced myself she never cared about me or my needs and wants and wishes, that all I was was a paycheck.
She spent her free time taking care of us -- our kids, making our suppers, doing out washing, making lunches, doing homework, projects, shuttling kids to sport, taking care of the pets they loved so much, their friends, and had a job of her own on top of it all.
Every time she spoke to me, all I heard was nagging and whining. But she was actually begging for my attention: a weekend away, a date night, a movie -- everything I ended up doing with Eve behind her back and after I left my family.
We argued and fought because we felt unheard by the other. And yet that was all we actually had to do – LISTEN – to each other!
Imoved to another province with Eve. My now ex-wife got custody of our kids. I saw them every second weekend, the usual 'Dad' set up.
New beginnings
Life was sweet!
Eve and I had an amazing sex life. A connection Ibelieved I never had with my ex. We had a large circle of friends. My family loved her. My kids liked her.
But my ex could never bring herself to meet Eve – she felt betrayed. I hated her even more! She was childish. She was mean. She never cared about me or my happiness. I didn’t care about my ex’s feelings when I posted photos of us on Facebook… Ihad Eve and a whole new life and it was fantastic!
We were together for about six or seven years but never married – we believed marriage was not our thing.
Ibelieved that after 15 years with my ex, we’d given it all we could and our time together was up, there was nothing we could do to salvage our relationship or marriage. Eve was my future, Eve was who I should have been with all along.
Eventually, no matter how well we got along in the beginning; no matter how well I thought she “got” me; no matter how good the sex was; the “honeymoon” came to an end.
Eve and I started snapping at eachother. Little fights here and there. Ihad amoment of pure realisation one night, at about 2am.
Irealised that I missed the woman who created my first home and family. I realised that if I'd treatedmy ex-wife the way I’d treated Eve, used the hours I spend woo-ing Eve on my ex, she’d have bloomed.
If I’d stopped being negative about her and our relationship to my family and friends they wouldn’t have been so negative to her and she wouldn’t have pulled into herself and shied away.
She became someone I convinced myself I no longer knew or got along with because I never gave her the time and affection and attention she craved and deserved.
Ithought I had, but when I got down and really thought about it Inever really did. Inever really let her in. I had ended my marriage years before with the simple decision that she was no longer who or what I wanted. And I’d convinced my family and friends the same – that she was no good for me!
Regret sets in
But I was wrong. I missed the best years of my kids lives. Missed being a family with them. I let their mother battle with raising them alone. Yes I helped financially, but a man living outside his family has no real idea what the costs are on the single mother. While Eve and I ate steaks on the weekends, my ex-wife was living on egg and toast.
And do you know that she never complained? She never demanded more money out of me. She never stopped me from seeing the kids. Never said no if I changed plans on her at the last minute. She gave up her weekends so that my mother couldspendtime with her grandchildren. She left me to get on with my life with Eve, even though it must have killed her.
Like any relationship, it had started out good – great in fact – but when it go bad I decided to leave… I walked out and divorced awoman who – and I can only see this now –would have done anything for me. But I’d told myself she wouldn’t or couldn’t.
My ex-wife stayed single for 8 years. She dated but never got involved. Her being single was also a kind of affirmation for me – that no one wanted her – that everything I’d decided she lacked, so did other men… She actually stayed single to focus on our children.
Too late
And then came the day she met Craig. Inever thought it would bug me in any way if she got a boyfriend. I thought it would be great! But I was very wrong. I felt hurt. Ifelt jealous. Ieven felt angry and maybe betrayed.
She moved in with Craig, along with my kids. She set up a new home. A new family, with my kids… it was a very bitter pill to swallow.
Ifinally understood how she’d felt all these years. And it felt rotten.
Iwatched via Facebook and through conversations with our old mutual friends how Craig spoiled her and the kids. Their weekends were spent on the beach – he surfed with my son. They went hiking in the Burg. They went to Mauritius where he proposed on a kayak and she said yes -- they got married.
My daughter was a bridesmaid. My son was a groomsman. Craig’s parents and brother welcomed my ex-wife and children into their family. They told everyone how blessed they were to be gaining them as family.
She glowed with happiness. She radiated love and none of it was for me! My heart felt like it had been ripped out.
It should have been me.
Don’t be me. You think you will never be happy when you are in a rut. It is when you are there at your darkest that you need to grip down and try your hardest.
Today I live alone and still only see my kids occasionally. They are big now and harbour anger towards me for leaving them and their mother. Who can blame them?
Of all the things Eve was, she was never the mother of my children – my original true love."
*Names have been changed.
This story was submitted to YOU by one of our readers and has been minimally edited.
So many stories like this one.. will youstand? Will he/she realise? What will it take? Is it really worth it? The choice is YOURS..
Yesterday we almost had our "annual" R talk. We have one a year the last few years!
Tuesday evening I had a weekly evening activity which is usually Wednesday but exceptionally was Tuesday this week.I mentioned this twice to W and once in text message on Monday. Tuesday evening I prepare to go and W is surprised because it's Tuesday! It was apparent she had a bad afternoon with kids and was surprised I was leaving. Pre crisis I would have stayed but part of my personal goals is to attend this activity. W was quite when I got home, so I went to bed early because I was tired. She stayed up later than usual
Yesterday she got up late and was zombie like. Shortly after she retreated back to our room. I went to check on her. She brought up how she didn't sleep well. How she watched two crappy films. How I made noise when asleep and how she heard me prepare breakfast for the kids woke her. I defended briefly my unavoidable breakfast noises and tried empathy. She continued about her bad day the previous day and why she was upset that I left, though she didn't criticise my leaving. Amidst the woe is me comments, some interesting comments were made:
# I seem to have a memory problem but it doesn't bother anyone but me. This is interesting because it's the first time she hasn't insisted that I didn't tell her. So I wasn't the scapegoat. It also highlights that she see's distinction within herself.
# I have so many problems I only want solutions. Although projected towards me as it being me to solve, it's also s rare occasion for her to verbalise that all isn't well for her. Plus she seeks solutions. Good starting point for her to heal imo. I won't be jumping in to solve though I am interested in hearing more
# is there any point in discussing problems, as that didn't work before. I asked if not discussing them have better results? A few comments about discussions being fruitless in the past. I replied that past results don't mean future ones cant be better. She asked how/why. I suggested we could take a different approach. She said to go ahead. I said I can't instigate an approach to something you haven't mentioned.(she never specified any specific issues/problems)
# I broke the conversation to check on my son who came downstairs. When I came back she asked if that was more important than this. I said I didn't chose priorities. I made sure all was okay and that he wasn't listening in. I added that with three kids in the house and someone expected shortly that this may not be the best time for a discussion. I proposed that we come back to it when no other distractions.She replied that doesn't work for us. I asked had she another suggestion. No.
Then the conversation ended with the arrival of someone yo the house.
There were other comments but through the sense of helplessness there seemed to be a genuine search f9r answers within her. I imagine she has a long path to go, but does deem to be soul searching. It could well be a way of trying to put the focus back on her as she is no longer center stage. Time will tell. Before this crisis and even early on I would have put myself under pressure to come up with a solution. I feel no pressure. I am still on observer mode. But I have outlined it here as a record for me and also to see what others think/advise.
I have the impression that this has been building up over recent months. In the build up to our crisis W would often.have said she doesn't (or shouldn't) spell out what I should do. I can understand that but in our current situation I am beyond playing games. I won't be guessing nor mind reading. If she wants to discus anything she is going to have to clearly put it on the table.
There is a chance this will die away for s few months to be hinted at again. If so, So be it. I will propose my availability to listen and discuss if she wants to develop on what she started yesterday. Yesterday evening she said not now. In our M I had a poor record on getting back to her on important stuff so I am willing to show that has changed, but I will leave her in the driving seat.
Thanks for reading
Best wishes
Good job listening and validating
Nice to see some self reflection and awareness
Good for you for doing your thing and not apologizing unnecessarily
The thing about you leaving to take care of kid
My w gets mad and gives me the same is that more important q
So when we are engaged in the rare serious conversation
I do try my best to ignore unless there is a real crisis
And funny thing is if the kids are screaming and I am ignoring
Sometimes she will then say are you not going to deal with them
And I will say I this is more important
Ah. D@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't. Know that situation too! That's why it's best to do what you want based on good intentions and your own moral compass. That eliminates second guessing and helps criticism flow off.
Here is the link I mentioned over on Westo's thread:
TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection (new)It is listed as a link under the Resources Thread
As we head towards Christmas I wanted to jot down a few lines here. Unbelievably this is the fifth one that I am heading into since I realised my M was in crisis and that I wanted to save it. Even though my M is still in crisis, I thankfully am not. So I share a thought for all those LBS's out there having a tough time especially at this time of the year. One way or another it will get better. You can survive this. You will start to live again and ultimately you will thrive if you take the advice given on this site.
The last few years to varying degrees I have wondered if this was my last Christmas together as a family. By varying I mean from almost certainty that it would be to this year where I am relatively indifferent. If it is our last, then it is. It's five more than many here have after BD. So in that sense I am grateful. I am also grateful that I have bought that much extra time for my boys. They could handle a S/D better now if needs be.
I remember two years ago when I moved to the mlc forum, I asked Job and the other good folk if I was doing something right or something wrong to still be in a state of limbo together after two years of DBing. Two years further on i still am not sure which. But I can live comfortably with my decision to stand. One day I may decide differently but I accept the last four years as a choice that I made.
Without this place and other resources I would not have navigated my path in the same way. I have read and forgotten more about R/M in the last few years than I ever knew before. Even if I have not retained a large portion of this wisdom I still have better knowledge than most couples tha walk down the aisle. Iwish I had known more when I got married. I intend to assemble my learnings and thoughts so that my sons will have the tools necessary to make their M's work. I have a few years yet for that but still....
Before leaving I will update on one point that I mention a few times throughout my last thread. I redrafted a letter to my W W outlining how this situation isn't how I see myself living. I acknowledged and thanked her staying although checked out as most WAS just leave and how that cannot have been easy. I outlined what I want in a R. I put no pressure on her to act or reply but just wanted to clearly state my thoughts.
There was no formal reply to the letter nor any major change in comportment (positive or negative).I probably would have preferred some feedback but that wasn't the aim. I saw myself, coming yo a crossroads and preferred to indicate in advance. Raising the alert level as says Michelle. So for me that is done. Ironically my crossroad seems further away than before.
.
Other than that I have been carrying on as best I can. Most times I am pretty good. At times less so. But on a deep level tthis journey has changed and improved me. My outer self will shine soon.
I am going to prepare a vision board of my aims and goals for 2019. It will be similar to a goals list but visual.looking forward to doing that.
Thanks for reading and best wishes for the festive season
Roist, you have truly shown endurance in your marathon of MLC. I pray that your 2019 aims and goals are accomplished. I too am working on a vision board for the next year...I always do a written list, but I also wanted to see if I would be more successful with a visual board rather than a list. We can compare notes next December.
Keep on keepin' on!!!
Not sure if my W noticed I had looked at vision boards on the net and YouTubebut she signed the kids up to do a visionboard activity in town this evening and asked if I wanted to go too. Anyway I did go. We each made one. They were fairly basic as we used whatever we found in magazines etc provided. Still a good activity.
Family was one of the key components on my W's board!! I didn't reaskher how she see's the family going forward without being a couple nor did I remind her that as I said recently our situation isn't the example I want for our sons. Anyway family figured on my board too.
SBJ. I will update you on my vision board, the more elaborate and specific one that I will make. I will post it somewhere in the house (probably gym or garage) so I will not picture all my DB goals! though was wondering about if karma sutra being appropriate
Thanks for your reply and support. I wish you well with your goals too. Happy Christmas
ffriend.
Roist
What a great post
A year ago I was certain it was our last Christmas together
I guess the lesson is that nothing is certain
It just feels certain in that moment
I am curious to know what that letter said
What is it you want in a relationship
I bet there is a font of wisdom there
And vision boards as a family
That sounds fun
I have never done one
W has one in her room
No mention of family
Best wishes everyone for the new year. Let's make it a good one.
Gordie. Thanks for dropping by. I'll reply another time
Best wishes to you as well.
Gordie, wrote you a long detailed reply which I subsequently lost. Aghhh! Anyway I will reply again here with the time available to me.
I wrote:
> Gave her credit for staying although checked out as most people just leave
> acknowledged that that cannot have been easy for her
> Stated that I don't know how much longer I will continue to live together disconnected
> this isn't how I see myself living nor the example that I want for our sons
> stated wanted to be with someone I could form a team with, laugh with, discus anything. to comfort, to support and be affectionate. I want those in return
> mostly I just wanted to share my life with someone who wants to be with me
> stated that although interested in how she saw us going forward that I wasn't absolutely looking for a reply from here. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts. Restated it wasn't a threat or effort to coerce anything
My W was reluctant to take the letter stating that it isn't how adults communicate. I calmly stated a letter allowed me to calmly say what I had to say and not get side tracked. She asked my purpose and I said I had no hidden motive but wanted to explain my thinking. She thanked me for taking the time to write it for her and that she would read it later. The letter moved around a lot over the following week, so I am sure it was read
As I stated earlier in this thread, I felt that I was at a crossroads and if I decided that I was no longer willing to live like this, I wanted to follow Michelle's advice and give notice that this situation is not suiting me and I may decide to find my own solution. I think I may have said that to her and she focalised a lot on "MY" solution. I didn't allow myself to be pushed to expand that, but said I was willing to change anything and everything to have a better life. No mention of W or M from me.
Also following Michelle's advice I have taken a step further back from W. This isn't a tactic, I just am not enthused by how we interact. So I fill my time with other stuff, without shutting W out completely.
Anyway I feel we are getting along terribly at the moment, yet I have noticed the following:
# W puts legs across mine more and more often when watching TV together
# W has insisted using newly acquired communication techniques (probably learned at parenting workshops she does) to get my views on stuff
# W has been active at finding us stuff to do together as a family and sometimes as a couple (though not coupley stuff)
My reading of the situation is that she is definitely interested in promoting the family unit, isn't against doing stuff together. Maybe I am just hung up on resentment or am just tired of it all, that I am not encouraging the positives as much as I probably should. At the weekend I came across some advice that a M specialist gave me three years ago, a year into my struggle. He said she seemed stuck and as long as she has the family she may remain stuck.
That's all I have time for today. Thanks for reading.
Roist
Thanks for the reply
I better understand your thinking
I find her responses interesting
I would view them as positive
The other piece of advice you are following
Is do what works
And if you get stuck try something new
Best wishes
Just dropped by to wish ye all a happy Saint Patricks day this weekend.
Just realised I never outlined my vision board either. Maybe I will soon, but it is finished and posted in the house. It is a good way to be reminded daily of objectives and wishes I have.
Luckily I have many projects/aims outside of my M because TBH that side is .....well not fun. I sometimes wish she had left, so I would not have the daily reminder of where we are at. I have mentioned before it being like a half marriage. My years of standing allow me to know I could continue for a long time. But more and more I think that "not like this".
Over the last two years I seem to come back here every now and again, to restate my same old struggle with the constraints of living like this and how much longer I will choose to do so. Within our M I am probably as much the WAS if not moreso than my W. Yet I chose to stay. That makes a huge difference, as I am not supporting something inflicted upon me but something chosen to endure. Plus it gives me insight into how the WAS feels/felt, which I confirm does explain why most leave. How they feel is horrible and anything that ends that if not only justifiable, but a must.
Our sons are hitting teenagedom and the ensuing normal battles are adding to an already unhealthy situation. But as usual I step back from the heat of battle, observe my real issues and put in place appropriate actions.
Guess I needed my safe outlet, more than I thought. Thanks for being there.
I'll raise a drink to ye all this weekend.
Best wishes
Roist
I think for the multi year stander
There are a lot of questions that come up
You helped me with a lot of them
What is a m?
Is there such a thing as a loveless m?
What if your spouse just wants to be friends?
What if your spouse wants out but is just cannot make the effort to leave?
It is at these times
That we have to examine our own beliefs
Who are we at the core
And then be true to ourselves
***
In addition to reading a lot here and about MLC
I read about being married to someone who is depressed
And being married to a trauma survivor
Knowledge is power
And it is a comfort to know you are not alone in your experience
***
Happy STP Day to you too!
Living with the daily reminder of your situation for so long must be tough. It's good that you are still at home for your kids though. Especially as they enter teenagedom. I think that makes a big difference.
Gordie,
Thanks for dropping by. I am glad my postings helped you. I have pondered deep on many aspects of myself and our M. That has been useful. The "what ifs" relating to W I have found to be fruitless as is any speculation. I have sought understanding which I believe I have found to a certain degree. That will do for now. Without speculating I am sure of the following regarding W:
# she is depressed/unhappy. I don't have to be a specialist to see this. But I imagine they all are like that. I just get to see it. That helps my empathy but doesn't help my situation personally. She is surely unhappy with me and TBH I am not perfect H material at the moment. But over time being shut out, I guess I am a bit out. It isn't easy to see her really upset as she is from time to time, but now I let it flow without any solving attempts.
# she is a good mother. Over the time of our crisis she has probably used the kids as a crutch. The affection she isn't giving me, she gives to them. She is so natural with her contact to comfort end connect with them. That is great to see, even if it highlights even more the lack of such with me. I have read (secretly) over a dozen books about M/R plus much more internet reading and podcasts. She has read more than me about parenting. Many the MLC has had worse preoccupations!!
# she is very interested in our family. Meals, family activities, TV series, films, outings etc. She is proactive about that and about involving me. I find it curious how she misses the point, that to be a family, being a couple is an important ingredient.
# She is still here. She has NEVER made any apparent steps towards leaving me, nor our bedroom. I am sure she has her reasons for that. I won't speculate, but I will say that despite the length of my M crisis to date, it is possible that the real BD has yet to occur!!
# She does appear to be cultivating more interests and activities around the house. She is initiating small projects and following through. This wasn't the case a few years back. I am being asked to help/participate in such projects too. This aspect of her amongst other things makes me wonder if her depression could be lifting slowly. Then again she could just be making the most of a poor situation........as I am!! Time will tell
# She has stated several times this year that she is there any time I wish to discuss anything with her. She has even demonstrated good communication skills with me. Unfortunately I get the impression that these skills and her openness are mostly to point out the error of my ways so to speak. I don't feel listened to. Some occasions I have not ceased due to timing or not being in the best mindset. So I have blocked some communication. I will look into my part in this. I believe her offers to communicate were genuine. Strangely or not I just remembered, that about six months ago, during a less pleasant exchange, I calmly said that if she was happy with our communication, good for her. For me it isn't adequate. Could be unrelated or could be a slow working reaction. All that being said, we have had no R talk in over 18 months apart from my letter last year.
Kate,
thank you too for your comments. When this all started my kids were 5 and 7. A lot of my standing was about it being best for them. Whereas there is no ideal time for parents to separate I truly believed that any time gained in postponing that would be beneficial for them. I am glad that we managed that. I still take them into consideration but believe being that much older and me being a bit more wiser, it is less critical for me now. That being said, they will remain a priority for me.
I have just read this thread. I can't believe it is over a year since I started it. Beginning to think that my situation is in line for a prize as one of the slowest moving here on the site!! There is a good and a bad side to that. I will focus on the good side but admit wondering about if a BD is down the road. I said wondering as opposed to stressing. Que sera sera. Whatever will be will be. It would sadden me that it ends after all this time, but I imagine I will embrace the opportunities and possibilities of such a situation. That's the advantage of having already mourned my M!!
But here I am for now. I believe I see clearly my situa
Previous post was sent inadvertently before finished..............
I have just read this thread. I can't believe it is over a year since I started it. Beginning to think that my situation is in line for a prize as one of the slowest moving here on the site!! There is a good and a bad side to that. I will focus on the good side but admit wondering about if a BD is down the road. I said wondering as opposed to stressing. Que sera sera. Whatever will be will be. It would sadden me that it ends after all this time, but I imagine I will embrace the opportunities and possibilities of such a situation. That's the advantage of having already mourned my M!!
But here I am for now. I believe I see clearly my situation and my W. I know things are not how I want and W isn't someone I enjoy spending time with right now. BUT I still see and believe in her potential. As long as that potential exists, my stand makes sense to me.
The reason for coming here today is to take some notes for future reference and also to help me ponder on my side of things. Recently W, during moments where the kids or life have overwhelmed her (as happens to most people anyway just more often in MLCland), she has stated things like:
# "I haven't bought a new trousers in months and does it not bother anyone else that I don't have any jeans to wear" I will say that I am lucky my W does not excessively spend on clothes etc, but she does buy more often than me. My first reaction was to say that, but I held back. In the end, I just let it slide and didn't even empathise. Ah those missed opportunities. And she has loads of pants, tracksuits, skirts and dresses so being jeanless doesn't mean she has nothing to wear. TBH I thought she still had some jeans (and probably does).
# Last week at dinner, the boys were hyper. Nothing major but definitely not an enjoyable time. As I was reprimanding my eldest she stormed off to our room. She is often the picture of patience with the boys and has invested largely in learning communications skills and other aspects of parenting. I sent son to his room. She came back. When son was allowed back things were better but she said that such interactions especially at mealtimes are not enjoyable for HER and asked does anyone care about that. She went on to specify that no one comforted her and not only the kids.
I could list other examples but in essence she is feeling self-pity and looking for us and ME to comfort her. I have tried that in the past and if she got upset I would go see if there was anything she wanted to talk about or for me to do to help. Invariably I was shut out. So now I just observe, sometimes emphatise but mostly ignore any "woe is me" episodes. This approach seems contrary to my overall view on how I would like things to be but is now driven from a place where I am not motivated to be the one to work on the M.
I welcome any thoughts on this.
I could be wrong but I think things are heading somewhere, where a R chat could be down the line. This is just an impression but not something that I am progressing towards. I won't be starting one, anyway. For me at the moment I have put the M aside and am focusing on other stuff. Plus I am not around as much as before. I have always given her space since I started this journey, but now I am taking more and more space for ME, but not as a tactic. I just enjoy non W stuff more. The more I push for W-free time, she finds ways to become part of some of that! I can see that and mostly am open to it, but will admit not always. I don't think that I am fun to be around for her, but still she seems to want my presence. That is what is interesting and confusing about my situation. It isn't clear but I believe in time it will become clearer because choices will be made one way or another. So whilst giving it somemore time, I observe the potential and carry on with my life as much as possible.
Thanks for reading
More noting for future reference, though appreciate any viewpoints that ye as onlookers could give:
My W's unhappiness seems to be ramping up or at least she is being more verbal about it:
Last night at dinner she told us that often when she meets people and says she's married with two sons, they often say how lucky she is as she lust be treated like a princess having three guys at the house. The meaning was a little lost on my sons and they acted their age and let's say she felt even less princesslike! Me, I didn't rise to the comments. Over the last few years I have come to not reply to anything like that in front of the kids or on other occasions if said to the kids with me in earshot. Unless it disrepects me and even then I often wait until the boys are out of earshot to pull her up on it.
anyway, it isn't the first time that she has made reference to being treated like a princess, or rather not being treated like one. I gather she would prefer to be.
Earlier on in my crisis, a fellow poster here called me a rock. he meant it as a compliment. This situation made me feel like one, though I am not sure it is such a good thing. I observe the turmoil, her comments etc and they flow past. They do not change me nor do I react.
Five years ago we were not in a great place and I didn't really care about M. Then I did and decided to do whatever it took to save it. What an eye opener that was. The efforts I put into learning as much as I could and putting it into practice. However over time, I have settled into observing, knowing she isn't YET ready for anything more. Each week or maybe even daily I smile at myself after a poor interaction and laughinlgly say to myself "not ready yet".
But I am not made of stone and I am not as solid as a rock. I am no longer as saddened by my situation but I find it sad to watch her struggle and not interact more lovingly. I think I am in a phase of avoidance. I prefer doing other stuff without her so that's what I do mostly. I am sure she has noticed a huge difference over the last six months in me. I am not cold but not overly warm either. whenever there are poor interactions I tend to go get busy elsewhere. Last week she followed me and stated that my storming off in anger wasn't a solution. I calmly replied I wasn't angry but didn't appreciate her tone and wasn't interested in prolonging the situation.
Four years ago I was willing and able to discuss anything with her. That was a huge 180 for me. But it wasn't time. Now I am not sure I would be able to really discuss important stuff with her. I believe I could relearn this skill but for now it is redundant. TBH I probably fear reconciliation more than I do separation, as I see how much work that would be for us and for ME.
What all this rambling made me think about is that after all this time, we seem to have arrived back where it all began. I am not the same person as was then though. I am no longer blind to our interactions etc. Last sunday I was out on a club day and it doesn't take me long to pick up on couples whos interactions are "not ideal" and it gives me pleasure to see others that are. I seemed to have really honed in on that. If I was inclined to I could easily pinpoint the wives, least happy with their H. I imagine some people do that. As for my own interactions with W, I put less and less attention on it. People can see what they see. Before I used to want to keep up appearances. Now I don't. That being said apart from probably a little less chatty our interactions are not negative.
I am not sure that there is anything much more than obseve that I can do for the moment, but if anyone thinks otherwise, I welcome your views.
Have a good day. Thanks for reading
Good morning roist. I don't believe that I've ever posted to you before despite our paths crossing many times. I know very little about your history so keep that in mind please.
I personally believe that most people don't change. Not that they "can't" change but that true change is very difficult. From what I've read you put out an extra effort with a particular goal in mind and now you're tired. You are returning to the you that you were. It's a thing. Neither good nor bad. We are counseled here to change and adapt and "do the 180" but really, all that only matters if those changes are fundamental. Which is very hard and quite rare.
You sound tired. Rather than as a rock, you've been carrying both sides for quite a long time. It's ok that you are now tired. It makes perfect sense.
For your W - she's undoubtedly not changed either. Each of your personalities are probably reverting to the old ways and the old patterns. The issues that were there before are still there under the veneer.
As far as what to do now and going forward - those choices are your's alone. I honestly don't know enough to be able to provide any reasonable advice.
Thanks Andrew, I appreciate a fresh perspective and I hear what you are saying and it is logical. I do believe you posted to me once before, at which time you said that she may never change. It is a possibility.
However being the quiet observer that I have been, I have noticed changes. She has changed. I am not talking from when she changed from the attention-giving loving spouse, but within her own path she has changed and dare I say recently started to grow again. The changes are subtle but her state of mind is better than earlier. she is showing interest in other stuff now and some of it is quite positive.
I definitely have changed. Whereas some of our interactions and patterns may be similar to pre-crisis buildup, I believe that fundamentally the differences are important. I have changed and now my decisions are coming from a much healthier place. I am also confident that I will have a bright future regardless of how this turns out. However I am not the H I want to be nor do I treat her like the princess she seems to want to be treated like. A simple fix then would appear to be that H and treat her like a princess, but I can't now. I could but ......
Anyway as for us, I have long accepted that if she ever does sort of her crisis "we" will be the last aspect of her life to change/improve. So as long as she appears to be showing slight improvements, the chance she is on the right path exists. By right path I mean one that could involve reconnection eventually.
But yes I am tired and although I know I could carry on for a long time yet, it interests me less. I am still standing but more passively. I am giving her the TIME and SPACE she needs. That I need too.
I could revamp my efforts regarding improving our R, but am curious to see where our current path leads. she does not openly mind my GAL activities but I get the impression she doesn't particularly like it either. Time will tell if this is good or bad. Worst case scenario I am setting up my life and activities for after, best case scenario she misses me and decides to work on us. Whereas I am not leaving that decision entirely up to her, she needs to reach a certain point for either to occur. Like a WAS who leaves, I believe that at some point a conscious decision to want to improve things needs to be made.
I had that moment 4.5 years ago!! It is powerful. I believe she needs to get to a place to make that decision. I cannot hand it to her.
Thanks again Andrew, I appreciate you dropping by and being openly honest. If others wish to do so, I welcome that too.
Roist - sounds like you are okay with things right now as they are.
Keep up the GAL and keep building happiness for yourself.
Hi Hawho,
Great to hear from you. Although I miss walking the path with you, I am glad you are out of the turmoil.
As for me, I am less okay than I thought. Having a hard time a the moment. Things are very strained at the moment and I don't even want to talk to her. Our boys are in preteen years and we are dealing with the normal stuff that goes with that.
I don't have the time to outline all the details, but in essence I have the impression my W often criticises me though sometimes very subtle. yes I know it is normal to be blamed/prejected upon, but over time that becomes less supportable.
Last night we had a bit of a battle with our eldest son, which in itself is hard to support. Then she criticises my suggested course of action. I tried to explain but she PROJECTED it back to me. I told her calmly that my idea was not so bad and almost every time we have such issues she finds a way to be critical of me. She said she wasn't critical but just discussing to find a solution. I replied that it didn't feel like a discussion but an attack. She said she was just annoyed (at situation with son).
Anyway I am getting tired of such interactions. Very tired. Ignoring them doesn't work. Neither does arguing. Nor empathy. Nor talking. Today I feel like the WAS. I just want this to end. The problem is that I don't see a better solution YET.
I come here when I feel down, rant a little and then type something to convince myself that it isn't all that bad. Always seeking that positive silver lining. Usually it helps
My W is also unhappier at the moment. Her princess comments are becoming insistent abut her not being treated like one. She seems genuinely surprised and taken back by this. Maybe in time she will stop blaming me and see if she could be contributing!!
My W often moans about interactions with some people. After which she sometimes asks if it's her or the other! Sometimes it is blatently her, but others it could be the other person.
I am nearing the end of my self-help rant!! I hope it helps because at the moment it feels like a pressure cooker.
Thanks for reading
hi Roist
I hope you're having an easier time of it. Maybe could you get a few days away, just you or you and the oldest? Call it a bonding weekend, but it might give you some distance?
Just a thought. Sending best wishes your way as always,
xoxoxo
Hi roist!
Beginning to think that my situation is in line for a prize as one of the slowest moving here on the site!!
Oh well, there goes my prize!
I could list other examples but in essence she is feeling self-pity and looking for us and ME to comfort her. I have tried that in the past and if she got upset I would go see if there was anything she wanted to talk about or for me to do to help. Invariably I was shut out. So now I just observe, sometimes emphatise but mostly ignore any "woe is me" episodes. This approach seems contrary to my overall view on how I would like things to be but is now driven from a place where I am not motivated to be the one to work on the M.
Anyway I am getting tired of such interactions. Very tired. Ignoring them doesn't work. Neither does arguing. Nor empathy. Nor talking. Today I feel like the WAS. I just want this to end. The problem is that I don't see a better solution YET.
You mentioned earlier that you avoid R talks. Don't. You've been busting for a long time. W isn't going anywhere, and it sounds like you are near done. Re-read Michele's chapter on "The Talk". (I think that's what's it called) Prepare your discussion and choose the right time to address as she advises. You don't have to do this right away, of course, but don't wait until you're "Done" and W doesn't have any chance at R.
Roist, when I read your signature line, "She's still worth it," I get so happy. I think there is a lot of truth in that and there is some reason why you are still together.
From the far vantage point of reading your posts and knowing nothing, I will say that it looks like you are noticing everything she thinks of you and trying to change her. If she were a healthy, whole woman and a great partner to you in life and in raising your kids, you might be able to feel more clearly that you can't try to change her. Are you still GAL-ing? Or are you starting to fixate on what you don't have?
I see the doubts you are feeling as despair, and despair does not come from the Light.
Tweens and teens will exhaust anyone. I agree with the above, that you should take a trip with each son and have some serious bonding time and just enjoy each other without an agenda.
But here is one thing you might try -- I was just cleaning out stuff in trying to prepare half my place for renters since my H moved out, and I found something I wrote in 2013, before BD but on the way there. It was a list of "Expectations of My Husband That I Release." I still remember the website I found it on, a "Daughters of Sarah," kind of site. It was astonishing to read the list now. For example, number one -- "I expected my husband to be affectionate to me everyday." Or how about number 12 - "I expected my husband to take care of me when I was sick." How astonishing to think that I got cancer after that and he sure didn't take care of me!
But the point is, reading that now, I see that I released ALL of them. There are 16 on the list. I remember writing them and thinking with such longing of how much I wanted him to do them. I was still expecting them and feeling disappointed. Now I look at them and it seems impossible I would ever think of expecting any of them.
Honestly I can't imagine expecting them of any man ever!
But what I am trying to say is -- Try writing that list. You are supposed to put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself a year later. I cried when I saw on the envelope a note to mail it June 29, 2014. That poor former me! I didn't even know cancer was coming then, let alone all the adultery, the kids being abandoned, the DIVORCE!
But I am so proud of myself for how far I came, and I know that it really helped me to write those expectations down, release them, and FORGIVE. It's a decision you make everyday and I don't see how anyone can do it without God because no human can do it. It's not in our nature. But you can every morning go out to the trees or the lake or the sky and say, "HEY! I can't forgive her! I release my expectations and I release my anger to you! Take it! It's too much for me to bear! Help me forgive!" I think that one day you will realize you are a little less angry, and if you keep doing it, that will keep happening.
Thanks FY. Great to hear from you. Wise words as usual.
Bttrfly, also good conseil. am thinking about it..... was already, but appreciate your input
Gerda, thank you for taking the time to write your long reply. Appreciate it, even if you did mix up the signature with that of foreveryoung! I am glad you can see how going through your experience has strengthened and improved you. I can see that too in myself. My despair as you call it comes from living a half-marriage. We live as a married couple in most aspects without the affection and support that should be there. I can understand her checking out and don't begrudge her doing that. It's the living with a HUGE WHITE ELEPHANT as if everything is normal that is not sitting well with me.
At the moment I have stepped further along my path of "not like this". Life is full of so much more that I am no longer interested in sharing poor interactions. I prefer go off and do something more fulfilling. So yes I am still GALing, moreso than ever! And as I distance myself, I have noticed that she follows/approaches. I am curious to where this is heading, and imagine well that she will initiate a R chat in the coming months. Probably not an ILY chat but to constate I am distant or some other poor behaviour. I have not spoken to her, because I feel she isn't ready to HEAR me, but think she isgetting there.
I am still standing because I believe in her potential and in our potential. In one of Michelles books she outlines a couple who see only the faults and errors of their spouse. The H outlines all he finds wrong with his W, as she did too, but ends up admitting that he has stayed because he believed in their potential to refind what they once had. That resonates with me. Whereas we are not in a very good place at the moment, there are signs that I am right to believe in that potential. So i inactively stand.
Best wishes fellow standers and crisis survivors.
Quick update, just to note:
Saturday morning my W asked me if I thought that she wanted to spend all her weekends alone (as in me busy again!). Before I could answer she stated that she didn't want to be alone!!
Conversation ended there as kids were around.
Well that was clear what she doesn't want. I Wonder what she does want. I am starting to get curious about my own situation, as I mentioned in my last post.
Roist, you should find a GAL activity that she can join you in. A good friend told me that he and his w compared lists of things they wanted to do and picked one they both had. They learned how to sail together. Just a suggestion.
Good Morning roist
Just dropping by. I read along and am curious about your situation as well. Hmmm. Doesn’t want to be alone, and speaking about it.
I’m not reading too much into that, as I said just popped in to say.
Have a happy Father’s Day.
DnJ
happy Father's Day Roist xoxo
In my own situation
W finds it much easier to know and articulate what she does not like
It is a step in a long journey, a positive one
I think it goes over a multi year period:
I am very unhappy with my life
I am going to try the opposite of whatever I was doing
I do not like X
I do like Y
At some point, I imagine they start thinking about others
But think the empathy chip may be the last piece of the puzzle
Quick note, mostly to self:
We had a conversation this week, or rather W initiated a conversation in which in essence she is ready or moreso waiting for me to have improved communication. Recently I'll admit that I have been lacking in the communication side of things. And she has now on several occassions initiated similar chats. Sometimes just a little H bashing but seems more and more genuinely interested in us talking. She wants better communication so things can improve. Although I asked her clearly what she wanted it still wasn't clear.
About six months ago I let her know it didn't interest me to be with someone not interested in being with me. I have said similar a few times. This week she got frustrated with my comeback stating that she NEVER said she wasn't interested in me or communicating with me. I said it came acroos to me that way. I didn't force the issue by quoting what she said at the beginning of this crisis which in essence did say that.
She added that for my birthday she bought new clothes, waxed, new hairstyle FOR ME and I never thanked her for the effort. I said I had noticed but didn't know that it was for me.
Other small points arose, but I feel a change.
Anyway I am thinking this through and believe she is now at a much better place to hear some feedback from me. I know to thread lightly but still this is new groound for me. Five years ago when this crisis brike, I put in the work and was willing, ready and able to talk about anything with her. Since that has diminished. Maybe it is time to revise that.
I have no huge expectations about where this will lead, but I am curious to see.
Any tips/advice or observation are always welcome.
Hope that makes sence, it is a rushed note just to record some points for me.
Best wishes
Thanks to the posters who read along and posted since my last post. appreciate you guys
It's funny that she thought you would know her dressing up for your b-day was for you. But it's still a good sign that she is trying to look attractive to you.
You sound like you have not forgiven her and that you are holding back to punish her.
I am not judging you for that, just offering a view of what it looks like from this vantage point.
Maybe re-read Gordie's thread for a little while to get into the groove of forgiving and also being patient to wait and see what happens. I don't think it would work on any man or any woman to place too many conditions on things, let alone a skittish MLCer.
I don't judge you at all, I am struggling a lot with my stand. But just trying to give a perspective in case helpful.
And try to remember that many of us out here read what your W is doing lately and are JEALOUS. Obviously she has a long way to go, but it's a blessing to see her soften a little. Try to enjoy the blessing -- not having expectations is not the same as locking up. Watch and wait, but smile at her sometimes to encourage her awkward little baby steps. She is learning how to ride a bike and can't do it if you don't sometimes help her balance.
Hi Gerda.
Yeap I can't mindread and gave up trying a long time ago!!! I could have been annoyed that she spent more on herself than on me for my birthday, but at this stage I just observe.
All and all, yes it is a positive.
I appreciate your sharing your perspective : "You sound like you have not forgiven her and that you are holding back to punish her." I will reflect on this although my first reaction is that I don't think so. But it is true that I have barriers up. In the last year I really am not interested in being with someone that doesn't want to be with me.
I will admit that each interaction like in my last post does warm me and feeds my belief that we could make it. I am grateful for these. Truly. However I feel a bit like a huge steam liner who has a path to follow and changing that path is difficult and not instant. Takes time to slow and turn. I have my own path to follow and I need to optimise how best to react to such interactions. I believe that if I stop my own path and go too much towards her, it would be a mistake. I'll it figure out though.
your words to me made me think of advice that I have given to others here. Their spouses showed signs of interest, but because it wasn't as they wanted, it was viewed lightly. I made the point that the WAS was doing the best they could. Yes my W's baby steps are awkward and less than I would like, they are positive.
I try to focus on the positive. I do observe loads of positives, but they are still sporadic moments in a sea of poorer interactions. It's almost like someone else dropped by to see me and then left again.
Gerda, I am good with a bike, so I will make an effort to help her balance.
In the time it took me to write that I thought that I had forgiven her, but maybe I have more resentment than I would like for our situation. Ahh the cycles and phases of this journey!
Best wishes everyone
R,
As you and others have told me, forgiveness is a process too.
For some there is a moment and a decision.
For most like me it takes time.
You think you are there and then something triggers you reminding you are not.
But I am only saying what you know and have told me and others.
Agree with your self assessment that w is making baby steps.
Sometimes that raises expectations which can lead to disappointment.
But you know that too.
You're doing well, roist. I know first hand how weary we can get.
Slow progress is good. Probably the best. 7 and a half years since BD for me, and our relationship continues to improve. Commitment is the key. It sounds like you both have that. Good job!
Here is a reply I gave to another poster asking about where our spouses where in their crisis. just reposting for me to reread later:
I'm just after passing the fifth anniversary since I realised how close I was to losing my W/M and decided to stand. Unlike the previous replies and most stories here, my W never left. There are positives and négatives in relation to that, but I suspect it would have been easier (on me) if we had split up. That being said, for whatever reason, we are both still here.
Fo me, at the start I realised how much I loved her and what I would be losing. This motivated me and still does to a certain extent. Our story is documented on this forum, so I won't rehash it here. Long story short is that despite ongoing positive signs/interactions we are still no closer to improving our R. Some of this is now on me, as I am not interested in working on it alone. So at the moment I am letting it be and focusing on other aspects of my life. Call it distraction but in essence I am buying time before I have had enough. So in the end it boils down to time and space. Plus I prefer having no interactions than poor ones!! (not a great mindset, but at this stage, it is what it is)
As for W, I see progress in general, with more interest stuff. She's a good mother and has invested a lot in our boys. Our distance I believe has created some parenting issues due to not being united, but nothing that can't be solved. Recently W has pushed to talk about parenting and probably "us". So far this has not lead anywhere, as often the timing was off due to presence of kids who tended to show up shortly after it started!!. She seems to be putting the emphasis on me to find solutions and/or to change/do more. Some of her griefs are genuine, but I am not going to jump through loops to work on things alone. And I am not interested in working towards a status quo
After five years I still don't know what she wants going forward, except me as a parent to the boys. She has mentioned how things are complicated for her, how things are difficult for her, how she is tired, how she doesn't sleep well. I know the communication techniques out there tell us to state things in the I as opposed to you, but to me it comes across as being all about her and what I am going to do about it!
All that being said, I believe W is just as frustrated and unhappy with how we are getting on at present. Based on current interactions, I imagine a R chat will occur before the end of the year. It's been about two years since we had one!
So in a nutshell to answer the question, after five years our crisis is still moving along following its course ever so slowly. The process has changed completely my Outlook on life and who I am. Soon I hope to put down the burden of standing and progress more actively towards living a fuller better life. I am doing that already but believe can be much much better..............
Rereading this thread, it was interesting. I will dwell on that and see what happens. In the meantime, best wishes to ye all.
Roist - 5 years; you have stood long and strong! What a testament that is to your character.
I hear lots of detachment in the tone of this message. And you did a fantastic job of building a life outside your marriage to maintain a measure of happiness outside your home life.
I cannot recall if your wife ever went through that period of stating she wanted to leave or D? Or has she always just been sort of stuck?
Kudos to you on all the personal growth you have accomplished while still standing.
Hawho,
Thanks for dropping by and for your kind words.
W has never voiced wanting to leave or D. But five years ago she couldn't promise me anything about our M. Without dwelling on it in too much detail, stuck is a pretty good description.
On another note, this week we have uncermoniously clicked into our 25th year together. I was convinced we would not have made it to our 20th anniversary. I imagined that by our 25th we'd be in a happily rebuilt M or seperated/D. I was convinced that if could get through the crisis then with time we could make it great again and even envisaged renewing our vows on our 25th anniversary together. As I've said many times before, a lot can happen in a year.................. I'll let ye all know how that works out.
In a few weeks we'll have another Christmas as a family. I won't debat or dwell on the togetherness of it all, but again five years ago I believed I was facing our last one. Regardless of what happens that alone is Worth my struggle as I strongly believe it beneficial to our sons.
I am not writing this to say what an achievement I have done, because I don't look at it like that at all. Probably the opposite is closer. But I wrote these lines to highlight that during this crisis we can be convinced of a certain outcome as inevitable and yet that may not be so. Don't believe or dwell on your worst fears. In time those fears will turn out to be less bad than we imagine even IF they come about.
Best wishes to ye all leading up to the festive season, not forgetting thangsgiving for those stateside.
Hi all,
Just a quick update, but mostly I wanted to come here today to wish all of ye my best wishes over the Holiday season. Unfortunately this time of year often is associated with past memories of better times and a sad reminder of what is missing. I urge ye to focus on the good parts of your lives and make the most of the festive season.
As for me, this is my sixth Christmas in the midst of this crisis. My sixth time facing into making the most of it. I manage to a certain extent but admit things are tinged with not being entirely happy with how things are. This isn't how I want to live. Each year I Wonder if it'll be our last together. Sometimes i feared that and more recently wished for it!! But that is something 2020 will figure out.
We had our annual r chat. W very unhappy and I will admit all her points were mostly valid. she still is blinded and deaf about my side of things so being a week before Christmas I let it slide. No point adding to the tension before the house fills up with her extended family!!
And yet things could be worse. A lot worse. I don't have time to outline any more for now.
Best wishes everyone. Be strong
Happy New Year roist...I pray that 2020 is the year for us all!!!
God Bless!
Just dropped by to update my profile ticking over another year. Browsed through some of my last threads and they echo how I feel. "Groundhog day". I figured so much stuff out, came to clear understandings of many aspects of this crisis, have overcome obstacles, set and achieved objectives YET my M and R and how I feel about it echo through my posts and through the years.
Despite my personal struggles with not wanting to continue to live like this, I still believe a certain potential is present. I guess it's my version of Foreveryoung's signature: because she's still worth it. Our actual R isn't worth continuing but our potential one is worth it.
However it's time to mix things up. Time to look at what I can change and how I can live better. I've done that before but this time I want to go outside the box or at least outside what I view as my constraints. Most of what I write is just to help me see things that otherwise would be missed. That's why posting here is so helpful especially in the beginning when the LBS is struggling.
Our 14th W anniversary is upcoming followed closely by our 25th year together. It's also my sixth anniversary of realising how messed up our M was and wanting to save it.
Until next time best wishes fellow DBers.
Hurray for you, for all the work you have done on yourself, for your faith and hope in possibilities and for your fidelity!
Hopefully you will explain what you mean by some of these allusions to constraints and boxes. Your journey is one I always checked on with interest.
Hi Gerda
Thanks for dropping by and thanks for following along.
I'm sure the answer to your question is already in previous posts, but as an exercise to clarify my thoughts I'll let you know what it means to me at the moment.
We all associate assumptions with certain actions/ decisions. For example someone unhappy with the pay they receive for their job. This person is stressed because it's hard to make ends meet. The stress is almost worse than the poor income. This person could believe that a better paying job would mean more responsibility and more stress, which they don't want. So to avoid this assumed association, they remain in their current situation.
Such associations are everywhere in life and are often not even consciously made. Our upbringing, previous experiences and personality are mainly the sources of such beliefs. They are present for all types of situations including our R/M.
A common example referred to on this site is that a spouse may feel unloved because the other is not showing them love in a way they feel love. So if they don't feel that love the assumptions is that the other isn't demonstrating love or worse doesn't love them.
We all stick meanings on what others say or do. It is possible that we are right, but not necessarily.
A H comes home and storms straight into his study or another room without speaking to W. The W takes this personally and gets annoyed assuming H is being a jerk. That affects her interactions afterwards. There could be many reasons for such behaviour from the H that have nothing to do with his W. But for this example I'll go a step further and the reason he did so was out of love for his W. He had a particularly stressful/awful day and wanted to take a few minutes alone to digest it so he could pass some quality time with W. Ten minutes later when he comes out, his W is now furious with him and attacks him over every little thing past and present! The H doesn't understand where this came from but is immediately brought back into the state of mind he was in upon arriving. Now he's annoyed because his bad day is continuing at home.
Everyone tells themselves stories which they believe to be true. My H did X and that means Y. Over time H doesn't even have to do X and Y is assumed anyhow because we repeat the story in our minds.
Which leads me onto constraints and boxes. In our life we believe we cannot do X because it will cause Y. Some constraints are real but many are not.
Without talking about seeing someone else outside the M, there are things we just don't do because being married means we shouldn't, like going out every night without spouse. There's no law against it but it's just not right.
So in my situation we are still "together" as a couple and as a family, albeit strained, but still together. I could easily fill up all of my evenings with non W activities but feel that as we are still together that's not right.
On the flipside, because our R is unfulfilling I don't feel like doing stuff together. In a M the more we don't feel like it is often when it's needed the most, but my assumptions is that that applies to a healthier M and not here.
Now to bring those two together in a concrete example. Next week is our W anniversary and I don't feel like doing anything. Just let it pass. That's the fed up version of me that has WAS thinking. But there is part of me that believes I should because that's the right thing to do. It's not just an obligation but moreso I want to on a deeper level because that's the H I want to be. What do ye advise about that?
As mentioned in one of my last posts this time last year and even earlier in other posts, I put certain restrictions on what i want to do because of my situation:
# certain because it's not the done thing because i am in a R
# others like showing affection I limit because our R isn't quite right
# some discussions/actions I put off believing she isn't yet ready and hence pointless at this stage. On that point I do believe she is closer to being ready to listen AND hear.
Add to the mix that at times my teenager and preteenager as well as W trigger me even though I see my triggers and work on them .
So on a daily basis I build up my optimistic outlook about a potential future R and aim towards that but find myself triggered by some interaction (or lack thereof)and that ends that days momentum. Leave it there and hit reset the next day. Groundhog day.