My first thread:
wife gone deep in the tunnel? My previous thread:
24 Mths in.. I gotta whole lot of living to do now New thread.
Well what I thought would end with my XW trying to push our buttons and her threats to make an appearance.. it ended in a no show and now a series of messages. Give me a few minutes to type this one up.
Well Monday started out to be a calm day. I prepared to go on a 3 day trip out West. Daughters will stay with my parents for 2 nights and home alone for one.
Just as I have all the plans set I get a text.
You know Irish, I was thinking of our situation. If you would of just told the girls to mind their business about us, that it was adult stuff, we wouldn't be in this mess. you failed as a father. When I told you I was leaving, we should of sat the girls down and told them together, that we both agreed. Instead of me telling them I was leaving. About our meet up that never happened. I am open to it now. It will have to be after my therapist appointment on Thursday. And only if he decides I am strong enough I will contact you.
Now i read this more that once. I didn't want to reply because it is all the same blame to me as before. It only showed me she still believes what she preaches.
I could of wrote.
Sorry XW, i wasn't about to back you up for your departure and also you added that you no longer wanted to be a mom. you own that.
to keep teens out of our adult business as you so put it. they were in it before I was. they were 13 ad 15 years old.. not months old. They were very much aware of what was going on.
I'm glad you are seeing your therapist, i truly hope you figure it out.
But I didn't write that. No need to repeat. Lets wait until after Thursday if she is ready for a face to face.
I get on my plane. All is good.
once I land ( no wifi in canada air space), a multiple of texts comes in. Good thing too. My plane was stuck on the runway waiting for anther plane to move so it gave me reading material.
text 1
Irish, I really hope i will be strong enough to face you. We need to work together its the only way.
I hope so too. we will see
text 2
I'm afraid that you won't like what you see. That you will not want to help me connect with the girls.
Also, if the girls are mad and want to kill me i don't want to see you. They need to hear my story. I need to tell them.
the girls know the story. I hope she's truthful with them. Sadly, I don't think she is there yet so can't hope for that.
text 3
If I meet you are you going to tell me I'm a bad mom. That I abandoned my kids.
now it gets interesting.
I reply.
Let's wait until Thursday. Get back to me and let me know. i'm busy until then so after Thursday works well with my schedule.
Irish, I want to see you but if the girls don't want me then I don't see the need to. I am not well and my therapist will tell me if I should.
My therapist will decide. it's up to him.
I won't go against the girls wishes either. I do need you to help with this. I can't do it without you. I'm afraid to talk to you as well. If I tell you why I needed to leave and the life I am living you might close the idea of helping me. I see the therapist Thursday i will discuss this with him.I'll decide what I will do ... if I feel strong enough or not.
so I left it at that. A lot of rambling at the end so i can sense she is not in a good place. Where she takes it we will see.
lets see what happens Thursday.
Irish, great job with the restraint.
It is good that she is seeing a therapist. Is this a new development?
I think the fear is normal. She knows she has done bad things, she knows she has been a bad mom. She is just projecting.
At least she realized relatively quickly that the wait until they are 30 thing was not a great idea.
Good luck to you and the girls (although I doubt she will follow through this time).
I read a slightly deeper message than in her previous ones. She isn't fully there yet, but she seems to be getting closer.
I could be wrong, but she appears to be facing her demons and working past them. Whether she reaches the truth or a version that she thinks will serve her best is another story. I would like to be open to it being the former, but her initial contact was an attack on your part. Plus she is apparently letting her IC decide for her.
I also think that at this stage, she knows that you won't swallow her horseshiit. So maybe a clearer version of the truth will be forthcoming.EEven if it may be wrapped in a pity party.
You seem to have your head right so you could handle this without our help/advice. But here is mine anyway:
# don't let her meet the girls alone without having met her first to assess where she is at and what her approach will be
# when ye meet, set yourself the hard target to not react to her. Let her talk as much as possible. Don't judge her, correct her or put her in her place. Hold your tongue. This will let her finish what she has to say and not get sidetracked reacting to your reaction.
# at the end thank her for opening up and say you want to consider what she said and you will get back to her.
# eliminate the thinking that this will be or is the sane old white again and again. Have an open mind.
# try interpret what she really means. By this I mean that maybe she will attack you or look for pity but she could have a good intention behind a bad communication.
I expect you may not agree with everything she says or wants. That's OK. Just remember your objective isn't about being right, it's about rebuilding a connection between your girls and their mother. Work towards that.
I too suspect she may hid behind not being ready to face you and postpone but I think this meeting will happen.
Best wishes Irish. Enjoy your few days away.
hmmm
you reminded me of something. at BD my exh was desperate to have son think it was mutual. i didn't agree, but didn't clarify anything for our son. I let exh do all the talking. I only said, "we both love you very much son"
son knew exactly what was going on the entire time.
Just like your girls knew. Kids are not stupid.
sorry, flashback. this isn't about me and I will re-focus now.
Roist's advice : [quote=Roist]# when ye meet, set yourself the hard target to not react to her. Let her talk as much as possible. Don't judge her, correct her or put her in her place. Hold your tongue. This will let her finish what she has to say and not get sidetracked reacting to your reaction.
# at the end thank her for opening up and say you want to consider what she said and you will get back to her.
# eliminate the thinking that this will be or is the sane old white again and again. Have an open mind.
# try interpret what she really means. By this I mean that maybe she will attack you or look for pity but she could have a good intention behind a bad communication.
/quote]
I think spot on, esp. the first two points.
Remember, the more she talks, rambles, babbles, the more information you will have to make a reasonable assessment of next steps for Ds. Much is revealed in their endless rambles.
enjoy your trip xoxo keep us posted.
Wow, wow, wow.
The best suggestion is not to explain yourself or defend the crazy stuff she says. She is still full on in blame mode and she while she can admit she is not well, she still is not taking an ounce of accountability.
Your best bet? To let her ramble and not say a word. I can't see anything else that you can do.
If she is still in a place of blame shifting, her seeing D's may not be a good idea. I know there was nothing more painful to me than my mother blaming me for adult problems.
You will get a sense of whether or not she is ready to take accountability. Or at least if she is on the path to it. But until she is, I wouldn't be facilitating a meeting and "helping" her like she asks.
You continue to absolutely amaze me. I would have had her blocked from my phone by now and only entertained email to an account just for her to email and to check it when I see fit. You are a better person than I.
Irish,
You've received excellent advice from all. I do agree that you need to step back, listen and just let that woman ramble on and on. The more she rambles, the more you will learn about where she went in her head. I know it takes the patience of a saint to deal w/these folks...but you've become a very patient man over the years.
Like most MLCer's she's afraid of being judged and rejected because deep down, she knows what she's done and doesn't have a clue to repair the damage.
I think your response was spot on and let's see what transpires after Thursday. My guess is she's not ready to face any of you.
Irish -
Ditto to Ginger1 and job's comments.
Put feelings aside and keep your thinking cap on. Do the poker face process it later, if anything happens - which I don't think it will.
Wow Irish .... quite the flight you had there.
When was the last time you actually seen her?
Reading the exchange I picked up on what job said. She is terrified of being judged/rejected probably more so from the girls than from you but I am thinking its death by firing squad or hanging ... neither sounds fun.
The fact she is putting the weight of meeting you on her therapist should tell everyone she is not ready, but the good news is she seems to be atleast sorting through some issues, although I am guessing in her head if Irish did this or Irish did that she would not be in this sitch so yeah ... I would hold fast till the Blame Game stops and she actually starts to look inward for solutions.
On the journey goes my friend ... hand in there if anything its interesting and for her sake I hope she figures it all out vs. missing out on what sounds like an amazing chance to be a part of 2 amazing girls lives.
Hi
She seems to be judging herself as well and she can see her life has gone downhill a lot
and that you may not approve of her or allow her in the lives of the girls
I set a few boundaries when my XH left..I fired him from our business with the help of a L- because he was using and getting high..
I told him them he would have a job if he straightened up-
he chose the fast life and left
It was for the best for us and our business thrived with him gone
if he hits a bottom-- he will sober up- if not, he is no good for anyone including himself
he is now D from OW but still deep in addiction
In my opinion, it may be best to let her hit a real bottom if she is using
not to help until she is clean- she is telling you- her life is a mess, so we can only guess what she has become
unless you want your girls to be around an addict- it may be best to allow her enough space and no reach outs -no help until she is really there
and it doesn't sound like she is yet-
just a clear boundary, she will only be able to reconnect with her kids when she is clean and sober-
just my opinion-
Irish,
As always, you handled this perfectly.
I know you’ve detached but it pains me to read this.
It’s just so, so sad...and infuriating.
It is good that she is seeing a therapist. Is this a new development?
Hi OwnIt
She has been telling me about therapy for over a year now. Fist time she said it was online via skype. Not sure how that would work out. This time it was going to see one on Thursday. An appointment. So hopefully they see what's going on and help her. Only if she tells them everything.
# don't let her meet the girls alone without having met her first to assess where she is at and what her approach will be
# when ye meet, set yourself the hard target to not react to her. Let her talk as much as possible. Don't judge her, correct her or put her in her place. Hold your tongue. This will let her finish what she has to say and not get sidetracked reacting to your reaction.
# at the end thank her for opening up and say you want to consider what she said and you will get back to her.
# eliminate the thinking that this will be or is the sane old white again and again. Have an open mind.
# try interpret what she really means. By this I mean that maybe she will attack you or look for pity but she could have a good intention behind a bad communication.
excellent advice Roist. glad you posted this. its always good to read to keep me in check.
I replied to a text of hers today and i feel i said a little too much. I'll write the details below. I need to really let her talk. No point in being defensive. it was all said long ago.
Remember, the more she talks, rambles, babbles, the more information you will have to make a reasonable assessment of next steps for Ds. Much is revealed in their endless rambles.
Hi Bttrfly. yes rambling would be good on her end. I was also told by a friend that I should validate. Just repeat word for word that she says. So she says it and I repeat it so she can hear it again.
If she is still in a place of blame shifting, her seeing D's may not be a good idea. I know there was nothing more painful to me than my mother blaming me for adult problems.
You will get a sense of whether or not she is ready to take accountability. Or at least if she is on the path to it. But until she is, I wouldn't be facilitating a meeting and "helping" her like she asks.
You continue to absolutely amaze me. I would have had her blocked from my phone by now and only entertained email to an account just for her to email and to check it when I see fit. You are a better person than I.
Hi Ginger, I agree 199% .I will not open the doors for a meet up with the girls if I see she's not stable. if this meet up happens. I have a feeling it will not be as easy for either of us.
The girls, I will shelter them from this for now.
Oh, I've blocked her multiple of times when she goes off and i need to protect my sanity.
I have her on a texting App only. Not phone number and no messenger. Email is only my home email. Gmail account. My personal email and work she is blocked.
Like most MLCer's she's afraid of being judged and rejected because deep down, she knows what she's done and doesn't have a clue to repair the damage.
I think your response was spot on and let's see what transpires after Thursday. My guess is she's not ready to face any of you.
yes.. I will let her ramble and I have that gut feeling as well job, she will not be ready to meet.
i say that but below is today's messages and I was very surprised what she says.
Put feelings aside and keep your thinking cap on. Do the poker face process it later, if anything happens - which I don't think it will.
Its tough. I feel I will have a poker face but this is the first time I will see her in over 2 years.. face to face alone. The last time I was in the same room with her was in mediation. No eye contact and she did not once look at me. might as well not been there.
When was the last time you actually seen her?
really seen her.. Over 2 years. that we talked and made eye contact.
Mediation doesn't count, that was January 2016
the girls it was Aug 4 2015.
Reading the exchange I picked up on what job said. She is terrified of being judged/rejected probably more so from the girls than from you but I am thinking its death by firing squad or hanging ... neither sounds fun.
The fact she is putting the weight of meeting you on her therapist should tell everyone she is not ready, but the good news is she seems to be at least sorting through some issues, although I am guessing in her head if Irish did this or Irish did that she would not be in this sitch so yeah ... I would hold fast till the Blame Game stops and she actually starts to look inward for solutions.
yes, she isn't one to face her mistakes. Even prior MLC she would avoid.
I'll see if her therapist decides. No clue what the therapy is about. Is it the loss of her kids, her demons haunting her or like she said over a year ago. Therapy to find herself. All seem to make her look inside. If she does the work
She seems to be judging herself as well and she can see her life has gone downhill a lot
and that you may not approve of her or allow her in the lives of the girls
Yes i picked up on this too. i will protect them as teens. As adult, they will have me as support.
If i don't approve of her i can;t see the girls approving either. She's in a tight spot. We will see how she plays it out.
In my opinion, it may be best to let her hit a real bottom if she is using
not to help until she is clean- she is telling you- her life is a mess, so we can only guess what she has become
I agree. My communication will be open for a while. If it gets back to her monstering well i will go dark again and let her spin alone.
I know you’ve detached but it pains me to read this.
It’s just so, so sad...and infuriating.
Yes very much so Gordie. that urge to shake her comes and goes at moments like this. But this site has guided me well to hold back.
well today i was in meetings all day. Got out at 5pm and opened the app that she can message me. I get this
You know Irish, I am starting to see what I did wrong. I know I did things that hurt you and you never deserved that. I never cheated on you by the way. I waited until I moved out. I know as well why I did what I did. I can't change the past. well, I don't know why she needs to tell me she never cheated. Sadly that statement was false. Still lying or trying to anyway. And all the ^^ above, I heard before . The last time she popped her head out in the spring. lasted a few days then poof. Back in her cave with puff the magic dragon.
I replied.
I'm happy you can acknowledge it now. As for your cheating I tend to remember different but it doesn't matter. You did what you did and chose that life. Can't change the past.I know.. there was no point in pointing that out. That she did cheat. but.. I did get a response that I wasn't expecting.
you are right. I am sorry. I felt like I was in a dark place with you. I was dying or at least I felt like I was dying. Why I cheated on you?? I don't know. I need to find that out.I know I needed to feel alive. I will talk about this to me therapist. have a good dayI left it at that. I think if she is going Thursday she will have a lot to talk about.
thanks again guys. I really appreciate this more than I can ever say.
Irish - What I hear is that she still wants someone to fix her mess. As Cali pointed out, she will meet if the therapist says she is strong enough. She needs YOU to help her rebuild with the girls.
If she really is seeing a therapist, he/she will know that she went waaaay off the deep end. No normal person walks out on his/her kids. And it sounds like she is doing a whole lot of justifying: I was dying, I needed to feel alive, etc. Me, me and more me. No therapist is going to see valid, justifiable logic in it.
I hope the therapist talks her out of it right and I think he/she will. If the therapist said that we'll see on Thursday (2 days from our session today) if you you are "strong enough," well, I think the therapist has her answer that it is not the right time. If she is questioning the timing, two or three days certainly is not enough time. And it makes no sense to start the process until she can really put forth true effort and really earn their trust back. It seems otherwise she'll just burn more bridges with them?
Of course, they have their own say in all this. And the very sad part is, she very well may be ready before they are?
Kudos to you..:
I admit to being a sucker for lost souls, but I think she was telling the truth about feeling like she was dying and needing to feel alive. I had a text or email fight with mine shortly after he left and he said that my dedication over 25 years had "damn near killed him". I believe that he believed that when he said it.
Yes there is a lot of I in this, but she is also trying to apologize, even if the truth is still difficult for her. You had already been receptive to helping her reunite with the girls. I don't think she needed to blow smoke up your butt to facilitate that. I think she probably sees the cheating as the turning point for where things got off track, but of course in all likelihood that was a symptom of what was already going on with her.
I hope she stays out for more than a few days this time for all of your sakes. I can't imagine how hard it is to sit there. I often think how I would behave under similar circumstances. I don't think I would have done nearly as well.
Don't worry about that truth dart you sent her way. It'll remind her you won't swallow her lies or mistruths. That being said I revert to my previous post as probably being a better approach for now.
I feel empathy for your ExW. She is in a lousy place. I think she wants to improve things. Letting her talkfreely could help that occur. Down the road ye can revisit your issues. To get better that will have to be done. So wait until then for your say.
Your ExW has a long path ahead of her to reconnect with your daughters. If she considers you as hostile,iit could hinder her taking those first steps.She has already surprised you with her communication. Maybe she will again. I am not asking you to help her but rather step back and give her what she needs to follow this path.
Best wishes
ok well feeling like you're dying, wanting to feel alive - isn't that classic depression symptoms?
I'm impressed that a. she admitted it promptly and b. that she says she needs to find out why she cheated on you. That is a person who is looking for answers. There may be some hope here.
And yes, the best person to talk about this with is her therapist. It sounds like she has a lot of trust in the therapist's opinion ("I will see what my therapist says" "if my therapist thinks I am strong enough"). That is good, because if this therapist is worth their salt they can help guide her through the tunnel.
I wouldn't put much stock in her showing or not showing. She needs to do some more baking (without the smokey treats) ...
It's a process. As painful as it is for us, I'm glad we are not them. Can you imagine? Ugh.
Loving kindness my friend
xoxoxo
Hi Irish, wise advice already from other posters and thank you for posting about the contact you have from your XW. Your situation reminds me in some ways of my online chum RD. He doesn't post much nowadays, but his W seemed in the same lost kind of place as yours.
I think the statement about feeling she was dying is so telling. That is how desperate the need to 'get out/so something' can be. The most impassioned thing XH said to me after BD was that he felt he had a big hole right at the very centre of his heart. Again, classic emptiness of depression - and desperately looking for something to feel good again.
What stood out for me is the - I didn't cheat - okay I did cheat and I need to work out why. Bouncing around. I'll still lie if I can. Oh I can't. Taking some responsibility. Delving some. Still somewhat entitled too.
Certainly not at all settled, and a long way to go yet. I'll be interested to see if she can go through with things today - she sounds extremely fragile.
Take care Irish and I hope there's something of value in this post for you xx
Irish
Quite the turn things are taking with her. She is expressing so many things that we all have read that they do ... script script script but in this case it is at the least things they say when the fog lightens up a bit and they are trying to crawl out of the tunnel. In my case it was about 4-5 months of some clarity and it was like the work was to hard and she shot right back in. This one ... time will tell right?
I think what struck me reading along was your responses and her retort ... as buttrfly mentioned she tried to slip a fib by you, not only did you not buy it, you handled it well and indifferent with a mere shrug and called her on it in passing .... where things got interesting for me was she did not deny it and even admitted it was wrong and she needed more soul searching to discover WHY she did such a thing ..... the look does seem to be shifting inward for her and this is good, just hope she has the stones to see it through for her own sake and then you can continue to decide what you will handle and what you will not.
Thank you for answering my question on the dates, I was pretty sure its been several years but was not quite sure. I think it does play a part in it as its hard to tell how someone is, my ex can sound all fruit and bubbly while on the phone with my son ... then she shows up at his baseball game and she looks flat worn out.
So the question remains ... is this an emergence, or simply a check in with pending holidays arriving ... time will tell.
Hi Guys,
thanks so much for the support and help here. Not a day goes by that I am not grateful.
HaWho, I too didn't think she was ready. She has a long way to go. If her therapist is a good one hopefully he will see through her masks
OwnIt, I too am a sucker for lost souls. I believe in people and I believe in her that one day she will connect with the girls. I just hope it was sooner than later.
for the point you made about her staying out for a few days , it doesn't matter anymore. I look at it so differently. I know she is not well and in a dark place. I don't let it get to me.
Roist, yes the truth darts. I'll stay quiet and listen. great advice.
bttrfly, yes classic depression symptoms. Sadly shes not there yet to accept it as that and blame is still her motto. I believe to o she is working it out. I just can't let it get to me and misreading between the lines . I've don't that in the past. Won't
fall again. The girls won't either.
Hi Sotto, there is always value to your posts. I only wish I was as good as you are at giving advice.
Cali, I have the time, no rushing this process as it won't give the girls a positive outcome. She needs to be in a good place. If all this is to only show clarity an then disappear, the girls will be one step closer to writing her off .They too have hope. They feel she will wake up and do the right thing.
UPDATE **
So, a week went by and no news. I figured either her therapy took a wrong turn and it was too much for her or simply the therapist told her she was not ready. Either way no news. Until today.
Good morning, sorry I didn't write sooner. My therapist says I shouldn't see you just yet Irish. That the reason I don't see the girls is because of the separation.
I lost my motherly instinct because of the separation, because of the way the girls reacted, the way they talked back to me and that hurt. So up went the wall. I built a wall around myself to protect me. That now I need to work on breaking that wall down to let my babies in. Irish, I'm working hard at this. I don't have that mother feeling to see them. I just don't feel I'm there yet and I'll let you know if that happens.
a little later. this one came in.
you have to understand I was in a dark place. I'm seeing it now that our breakdown caused it. The girls didn't help.
Ex, I understand about the meet up. I am ready when you are. As for the separation being the cause of this dark place you entered. I see it more as you went into the dark place, the girls didn't recognize you anymore and our separation was unavoidable. Either way Im glad you are working through this.
Irish, thank you for understanding. You know we should of had a better couple therapist. I know you didn't like the one I picked and I had asked you to find one. I wish you would of done that part.
XW, 10 years ago when you went off the map. The therapist even told me nothing I can do. That therapy was to make me accept.
2 Years ago when you asked me to chose the therapist this time for our couple I didn't. I didn't see you wanting it. It takes 2. I wasn't going to do therapy again so I can accept it. So that you can say " you see, we didn't work" . I was all a game to you and part of your escape plan.
What didn't work was you. I know my faults and have expressed them. Our couple could of survived. But you were on a mission to get out. I didn't need a therapist to tell me that.
You are right. I needed out at all costs. In my heart I had wanted you to find a therapist. In my head I was leaving. You have nothing to apologize for. You did nothing wrong Irish. This all happened for unknown reasons.
I felt like I was not your partner in life. You managed the budget and that's OK. But I wanted to help you. I wanted you to trust me like I trusted you. I wanted to feel like a team.
god I hate texting . This way of communication is the worst. Please don't take anything I saw negative, its not my intentions.
the budget? well you know I offered it to you and even said take it on. You needed to step up to the plate. It wasn't going to get done by itself. If that is the sole reason you left, I'm sorry.
By the way, We were a great team. We raised the girls together. They are beautiful souls today because of it. You were a great mom. Just got lost. You are working on that and I am open to communication. Have a good day
I didn't step up did I . I remember that now. have a good day too
Well that was today. I know I slipped up. Defending. Truth darting overload. But it was an open communication.
I'm not sure what to think about her therapy. Is he really telling her that her shut down was because of our separation. She was shut down way before. and the girls only gave her attitude when she went manic. Her shark eyes showed me that she was deep in a depression. My mom even picked up on it weeks before and asked her to see a doctor. She lied to my mom and said she did.
The therapist is on the wrong path. This will just validate her own lies. Hopefully he is working this to help her dig deeper within. Time will tell.
Now tonight \i have a heart broken D15. Her BF just broke up with her. He lives 40 mins away. I usually drop her off and pick her up on weekends. Not to get in the way of school nights. He takes public transit but said they don't see each other enough. So better they break up. His Dad a MLCr drove him for the first time and didn't like the commute. So it's cookies tonight and hugs. Seeing her cry breaks my heart.
Irish
Irish,
I don't think you can accept her version of what the therapist is saying as what the therapist is saying. Given that she is now reaching out and agreeing with you when you challenge her fantasy version of events, it seems like something is happening in a positive fashion.
I'm sorry about your D, but perhaps this will give you some perspective. I didn't date at 15. I didn't date until I was 21. I married the first person I dated after knowing him for less than a year. We have been married 26 years in December (3 month waiting period so pretty clear we are traveling through one more anniversary).
I wish I had dated other people. I wish my first breakup wasn't at 46 with two kids, a mortgage, etc. Your D will learn that she will survive this, and in time she will find another boy and learn a new lesson, and probably endure another heartbreak. Those heartbreaks will collectively help her figure out what she likes and needs in another person and what she doesn't.
A great dad and some lovely cookies will probably help a little for now.
Hi Irish, for me you are answers to Exw were spot on. I dont see any over stepping or defending , just truth. I admire how you handle yourself and your compassion is also to admired. Just my humble opinion here , your girls have given their thoughts on communications with their mum , im sure you don't need me to tell you that they may not currently share your compassion so maybe aby steps is what springs to mind. Just my thoughts.
Sorry to hear of Ds heartbreak but it is a life lesson we all went through as teenagers ( again and again !!! ) and once again if nothing else shows D that her dad is the rock in her life.
Once again , you are an example to us all and your Ds are very lucky girls. Do you best to stay detached when dealing with Exw but it does appear she may be having a ' break' in the fog and long may that last.
Take.care , Rd
Irish,
I am so sorry to hear that your daughter's heart is broken. Lots of TLC for now. It's always so heartbreaking to see them like this.
I don't put much stock in what your xw has shared about the therapist. Some are not the best, but when a MLCer goes to a therapist, they pick and choose what they want to hear and apply it their situation. I know that you will take what she says w/a grain of salt.
As for your remarks, I think you handled the situation quite well. You told the truth, and yet, you told her that you were willing to meet up w/her. She's inching her way towards waking up just a tad...but she's still got a ways to go.
Hugs to you and your girls, but especially your daughter who is hurting right now.
{{{{{D15}}}}}
Well, Irish, you handled this latest communique from the dark side well. The force is with you
It's hard to tell if she's getting this from the therapist or this is her muddled spin on things, as Job pointed out. I think tho that overall it's positive that she's continuing to do the work. We can at least say that she's starting the process. Who knows where it will end up?
xoxoxo
Irish,
I really do admire how you handle everything especially the girls. D15 is heart broken but she knows she has you to support her. You are everything that I hope to be as a father through this crisis. I am particularly concerned about one d who has always been super close to mom and not so close to me.
So sorry to hear about D15's heartache.
As for your exw, her memory is Swiss cheese. You can see that when she says "oh yeah I forgot x happened." Assuming the therapist has a 1/4 of a brain, he/she is going to know that the problems did not start at separation. Her break with reality was a long time coming. Women who abandon their kids are very, very rare birds.
Thinking of you all.
I been to a lot of therapy over the years
I noticed my therapists are not always right
But they will mirror back to you what you said until you can process it and figure it out
She sounds like she is trying to understand what happened and that is good
I think her kids mean enough to her that she is seeking help
and as long as she is not medicating with drugs/she may get better over some time
I thing the drugs ruin a persons chance for growth
I don't think you can accept her version of what the therapist is saying as what the therapist is saying. Given that she is now reaching out and agreeing with you when you challenge her fantasy version of events, it seems like something is happening in a positive fashion.
Hi OwnIt
I agree.. she is telling me these things. Are they true? I've been to therapy and they usually let you talk and they listen. Small questions here and there. Rarely would they blurt out whats wrong with you until you figure it out. I know this is a new therapist for her. So her telling me things is probably what she wants to hear.
your girls have given their thoughts on communications with their mum , i'm sure you don't need me to tell you that they may not currently share your compassion so maybe baby steps is what springs to mind. Just my thoughts.
Hi Rd
The girls are watching me. How I react to her messaging. Right now They are unaware of this latest touch from her. The last time the girls got all wound up and XW fell flat as a no show and went back in the sewer with pennywise. With D15 heartbreak , I will wait until Tuesday to bring it up.
I know protecting daddy.. but I'm at the point where I've seen enough heartache and frustration because of XW.
I don't put much stock in what your xw has shared about the therapist. Some are not the best, but when a MLCer goes to a therapist, they pick and choose what they want to hear and apply it their situation. I know that you will take what she says w/a grain of salt.
(((Hugs))) back Job.
Yes I am not letting her comments get to me and I'm sure the therapist is just making her talk and that is what she is repeating. Glad she is at least doing that. It's a start. We will see long-term if it pays off for her and the girls.
It's hard to tell if she's getting this from the therapist or this is her muddled spin on things, as Job pointed out. I think tho that overall it's positive that she's continuing to do the work. We can at least say that she's starting the process. Who knows where it will end up?
hi bttrfly ((xox))
yes at least she has started something. This is action. I really believe she is going to therapy this time. She was a loving mom, that has to be in there somewhere screaming to get out again.
. I am particularly concerned about one d who has always been super close to mom and not so close to me.
Hey Gordie, thanks for the support. Make extra time for your D. She will grow close with your stability. I know many families the kids are closer to one parent and not the other. That one parent is more available and has taken the role as main support. We all get busy, we see that our kids are fine because the other parents is managing that role. Life is good. Only when the break happens the kids are drawn to that one parent. We feel that loss. My case is extreme. I was closer to the girls but XW bailed on them as well. Love your D and your other kids. In time they will all see you as the rock.
As for your exw, her memory is Swiss cheese. You can see that when she says "oh yeah I forgot x happened." Assuming the therapist has a 1/4 of a brain, he/she is going to know that the problems did not start at separation. Her break with reality was a long time coming. Women who abandon their kids are very, very rare birds.
((Hugs)) HaWho. Yes, rare birds but I do know a few. Maybe it's the Quebecois culture. Who knows.
I know XW has insurance so I am sure she didn't go with the free social-aide government appointed therapist. Time will tell.
She sounds like she is trying to understand what happened and that is good
I think her kids mean enough to her that she is seeking help
and as long as she is not medicating with drugs/she may get better over some time
I thing the drugs ruin a persons chance for growth
Yes I believe her missing the girls is the key driving her seek for help.
As for the drugs. Well OM is still in the picture and he is that towns local Pot head. In Canada we are legalizing marijuana. In her town they opened up 2 major grow Ops. Lets hope she is clean.
recap on her drug use. She hates it , people in the park across from our house would smoke there. shed call the cops. zero tolerance. The one time she tried it at a party before having kids. It was a bad reaction.
BD, she was a full time pot head. Even told the girls if they need pot come to mommy.
So let's pray she's clean.
Small update
She is back to being a texting machine.
Irish we need to see each other soon. I need to be a mother again. I want to help the girls in school. I can help. Tell me how I can help.
I can't live without them anymore. It's eating at me. I cant live. But you know Irish, I chose to live rather than end it. I made many attempts to see them. What did I do wrong. I'm a good person. I'm a good mother. I need the girls in my life I also want them to accept my life. Be part of it.Well I'm glad you chose to live. The girls need a mom. I believe you will one day connect with themI always put them first. you know that Irish. Even today i would put them first.I need to see you, to talk.
I called the school. D15 is struggling with History. I can help her.
I told her history teacher to be easy on D15. She has been through a lot and hasn't seen me for over 2 years.I was a good mother and still am. yes you were a great mother. You just lost your path. Lost that motherly instinct as you said. It happens sadly. It's what you will do next that will determine the outcome. Yes, I know I haven't been a good mom over that past 2 years and a half. But I am a good person.
Irish . lets have lunch next week. I am free Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. oh and Thursday night. Let me know. Sure, Tuesday sounds great. Lunch at ( mid point between our towns).
Not sure I will eat but I will be there. me neither I won't have much of an appetite. see you then. thank you So there we are. Set for a lunch meet up next Tuesday. Will it happen? who knows. The past attempts all failed. I'll be there anyway since I am getting a haircut in that area that morning. I'll listen to what she has to say and validate when needed. If it goes south I will just walk away.
hope you all have a great weekend. I'm going to enjoy some time with the girls, a Halloween party with the gf and the sun.
take care
First -
Whatever sent her off on this path, it wasn't pot, ok?
No, I'm not one of those people who thinks pot is completely harmless. But seriously, most negative side effects have to do with making people less motivated, except in young growing brains where it might possibly affect development. And it is far preferable to most of the legal prescription drugs that people medicate themselves with for pain or anxiety.
If you honestly believe that drug use set her on this path, it WASNT just pot. She had to have been using something much stronger (speed would be a common risk, often abused by overwhelmed housewifes either for "focus" or weight control initially).
I don't care for pot personally, but I do prescribe it for certain conditions, and it's far less risky than alcohol.
As for the lunch - it's good she's reaching out. It's bad she called the school. It's good she wants to be a part of their lives - it's bad she's not totally accepting responsibility for her actions and still wants the girls to accept her life ( which means accepting OM).
I'd be careful, do mostly listening, but have a specific path laid out if she asks how she can reconnect with the girls.
Also - don't know if it's legal where you are, but you might want to secretly record the conversation if you have any concerns that she might falsely accuse you of anything.
Hi KMl
i know it wasn't pot that set her off onto this path. Sorry you understood it as such.
Pot was a big "new" thing for her..after BD. That and drinking
I have nothing against pot and those who use it medically or for fun.
It works for many people I know with anxiety and other illness. I do have a problem with XW trying to be my Daughters pusher. Their mom said if they want the good stuff call her. Only a month before she was worried D17 was using.
OM being Mr.pot head includes much heavier drugs. He is well known in that town.
Again sorry If my last post was misleading
Yes the lunch will be listen and see what she has to offer and offer suggestions if I feel she is open.
For myself i have no goal here other than for he girls. They need a healthy mom and if she is willing to do the work then I may just have to nudge them a little then step back.
OH, D15 is doing better. Still heartbroken but isn't in her room 24/7. I managed to get her out on a family activity last night and tonight the girls are joining me at the Halloween party. I'm going as a MLC'r
ok bad joke..
I will be a priest, D17 a hippy ans D15 little red riding hood with part wolf. Should be fun.
I'll check back in Tuesday night after the trick or treaters are done.
Irish,
I don't post often,just when I feel strongly about something. Like you, I have daughters, three in fact.The best piece of advice I can give you at this point is that you don't need to share with them updates on every conversation or interaction you have with ex. They are old enough at this point to recognize that mom is not the mom they knew and loved. She may never again be that person. Believe me you don't have to reinforce this. My oldest is 22 now and this started when she was 17. Just the other day, over dinner, she told that mom is not the mom she grew up with. She said she is still trying to get used to this new person. It would have done no good if I had said anything to reinforce this.
Your ex may never be healthy enough to be a full time mom. You will probably always be the person they turn to in crisis. You may feel that you are protecting them by sharing these interactions. Ask your self what you are protecting them from that they aren't already aware of.
Hi
I think you may see more of what is going on with her after the meeting
she may need more time, but your support may guide her and give her valuable information -she can bring to her therapist
if using and OM are the things holding her back-therapist can maybe help her see this
"lifestyle" is not good for her
if he is any good at all
In my mind, if a person is fully clean from drugs/alcohol anything is possible for a recovery no matter where they are
if using I'm not sure-Ive seen a lot of things over the years in alanon
Im not a believer in recreational use/ or even for pain medication
although some may need to medicate for various reasons
I think there is a better way-
Just have another view on drugs after being in alanon for 30 years
I like the way you can put it all away and move into your new life
You are there for her/watching for he to wake up
I believe all you are doing is helping her and may one day help her reconnect
I think you can set boundaries that she may follow within reason and take to therapist
-use your judgement
I think you understand the situation pretty clearly and I wish the best for you-
Wow Irish ... quite the events unfolding over the last month or so.
I think it is important to mention how you are handling all this, reading the exchanges you have been very "Light-house" ... never wavering nor lashing out trying to vent, simple and to the point seeing that your 2 daughters would benefit long term with a mother in the picture. As others have said its hard to tell at what capacity she will be, or grow into, but if she never had the chance how tragic for the girls would that be (Even though they are still hurting and need to forgive and heal but just do not know it just yet). I really respect the way you have handled this, and I agree the girls will always be coming to you in crisis because you are the rock that one needs to be in a storm such as this and that will never be forgotten even if they do not articulate it.
As far as her actions, seems she is really trying to reconnect, in my experience and I'll add a disclaimer here as its just what I went through and all these crisis' are different. Mine seemed to really try for a few months but the weight of what she had done added so much pressure she went right back into the tunnel which seemed safer. That said I am not sure I could have nor would have done much different other than attempted to slow things down a bit, in your case she can not become super mom in a week, it will have to be slow and she has a good deal of trust to earn back from the girls.
Hi Lt, Peace and Cali.
thanks as always.
well I will cut right to the chase. I met with XW today at lunch.
Early morning text to confirm. Said she was nervous.
I arrived a little early. Wasn't sure How I would feel so I wanted to get there to sit down and relax before. After all this is the first real discussion I will have with XW in over 2 1/2 years.
I texted her telling her I arrived. Got a reply immediately saying 5 mins
She walks in. We both take a quick glance at each other then look away. I sip on my green tea and she goes to get a coffee at the counter. She comes over with a smile. She sits down and right away goes into it. I will color code our discussion. generalized but the key points are there. Recorded the conversation with my iphone. Never can be too sure.
I really think this is good we are talking. Going against my therapist but you know what. I want to fix this with my girls. I need to be a mother again. I will make them my priority Irish.
First things first. Let's talk and in time I know the girls will want to see you. They do miss you but are very skeptical. I'm not sure if its a good idea that you don;t follow your doctors recommendations. You are planning to tell him we met . I hope.
Yes, of course. I tell him everything. He has in 6 weeks helped me see things I did not see or want to see. Right now he is helping me with the star alignment of my family. The roots of my family issues. Dating back to my grandparents. Says that what I did was very common and it causes so much destruction.
Destruction you say. I am really glad you are talking to someone about it and working on it. This is a huge step and it shows your strength. Your dad would be happy.
I don't want to talk about him. He's gone.
ok, it's about the girls. ( this is where I just update her on some of the girls life events she had missed and current situation with them.)
She replies some things that she was foggy on. The first year to her is foggy, Still not sure on things I said or she said.
I remind her of D15 health scare. and D17 court case with the predator. She looks away and crosses her arms.
You know Irish. The girls are and were with you. I knew they were safe. That you had them as number 1. I didn't feel the need to be there.
Why did you never ask how they were?
You know . you are right. I should have. I just knew they were ok with you.
And why didn't your mom ever reach out?
My mom is my mom. I know she is not perfect. She is living with her consequences. In time I hope the girls will see her too.
You know Irish. When I left and the girls got mad. I knew they wouldn't live with me.
XW, you are wrong. they had even helped you paint. You decided that you wanted to run. Left that place and moved in with OM. You told the mediator that you didn't want the, Said I could have them they are "my last name"
I only moved in with him because I couldn't afford my own place.I don't remember saying you could have them
It will come to you one day. Why the matching tattoos with the roman numerals date on your wrists. You both have the same one. You had told me your soul mate.
She laughs.
He is nothing. The girls will never ever see him. He wont be part of their lives.
Now you said you moved out into your own place. Why didn't you move closer to our town to be closer to the girls. That would of made a huge difference. Now you live down the street from OM. What was the point in that. You are still dating. You would of saved money.
Do you think If I had done that the girls would see me?
Well it would of been a positive action.
You know Irish, I am getting my finances in order . I owe a lot of money still but I should be clear of it in 5 years. I want to buy my own house. I will then buy something closer. Just have to fix up my car. It needs breaks and the muffler I just had it changed. After this I will go to the garage and pay it. Can't buy a new car just yet.
Well 5 years is along way away and D17 will be 23 . Most likely in her own place. I plan to move in 2 years.
She looks at me with a blank stare. Oh. you are right.
I know I was in a bad place when i left you. I saw what was happening but couldn't stop myself. I also know that I left so many clues about OM so that you would find it. I wanted deep down to get caught. So you could help me Irish. No one helped me. I was seeing black and everyone. My friends and family all let me go and do this.
I tried to help you Xw. I was enemy number 1. I would tell you something and you'd just laugh at me. I told your mom and she told me . "Irish. I went through this so will my daughter." Your sister went through it and even told me she sees you as off. She did nothing. And if she did you would of only cut her off. What you went through , only you can want help. Most of your friends didn't know what to take of it all. You were gone.
Well I'm getting help now and those I don't need in my life I won't ask them back.
You know that number on my wrist. It was actually the day i tried to kill myself. The day I met OM too. It has a higher significance.
Well I am glad you didn't kill yourself. You are worth more than that and the girls don't need that in their lives. They need a healthy loving mom.
I wouldn't think of it now. I love life. I have great friends at the gym. Girls I hang out with and we all support each other. It's great. I try to go to the gym every second day. Tonight I am going trick or treating with a friend. She is a single mom. Had an abusive boyfriend. Are you doing the house still? i miss those times.
Yes. it's all ready to go. The girls won't be going door to door they want to stay and help me. I'll send you a picture if you want.
You know Irish. I have been watching your Facebook. I use a friends login. Your page is private but I see enough. I know you are happy. Or is it a mask like I wear most of the time.
I am happy. We have great girls and we are all healthy. What more could I ask for in life.
then I cut it short. Said I had to go and we said a simple goodbye in the parking lot. I added. Lets talk again soon. After your therapy. like i said , I am not ready to meet up with the girls any where soon. We need to go slow.
You are right Irish. Have a good Halloween
I can't wait to see them. I'm so Tired of the questions about my girls. Why i don't see them.
so that was that. I will let this sit for a while. she has therapy on Thursdays. Her move after that.
take care all and happy Halloween
Just wow. You did such a great job Irish. It is at once sad, haunting, and hopeful. So much insight into what they go through and how they characterize it. I hope she stays out and keeps getting help. You are such a lovely guy to do this for her and your girls.
Hi Irish, as ownit says great job. I admire you on so many levels. I have had very very similar conversations with my exw, even down to ' he wont be in their lives' but i just shut her out and while it worked for me, you are doing the work for your girls and her.
Your approach seems strong while caring and it shows your character and strength.
I would imagine a difficult journey ahead but nothing you cannot handle. Please remember that while the girls.do come first , Irish has his own sanity to protect so keep exw at a distance that your comfortable with. Don't get dragged into her drama.
Take care, Rd
Irish,
I know the meet up was a tough one for you, but you handled it with grace and dignity. You listened and addressed different things with her. Now, she will go back and mull those comments over in her head and come to realize that you were not and are not public enemy number one.
She does sound like she's making some small progress in addressing her issues with her therapist. I hope that she will continue to improve and one day, be the mature woman that should needs to be and be a mother to her girls once again.
I think you did very, very well in this meet up.
very hopeful
she does sound like she is working diligently on herself and her therapist is good for her-
interested to see how your situation evolves-
I think it took her much courage to meet you and admit and be open to her wrongs
good job mon ami! hopeful .... I don't really have anything to add beyond what others have said. You handled it so well. very proud of you!
she's working on it. that takes a lot of guts. let's see what happens. xoxoxo
Irish
You are amazing. Has her physical appearance changed? How did you/do you feel after the meeting?
Wow.
I didn't think this would happen. I thought it would just be more texting games. I'm glad there's some progress.
A lot of insight into how they think.
Please share your thoughts once you've let everything sink in a bit.
I'm also curious as to how she looks.
Good job, brother.
Hi Everyone
well I had a super Halloween. My house for the 7th year was a huge hit with the neighborhood kids and adults. Many thanked me for going all out and even had a few families saying they always look forward to my haunted house. The girls stayed with me this year to add to the scares and didn't go trick or treating. No worries, I bought so much candy we are good until Christmas.
for the questions on XW.
Has her physical appearance changed?
I'm also curious as to how she looks.
She actually looked good. Healthy. Same as I remember her prior BD. No shark eyes. A little sad but only when talking about herself. When I mentioned that I too it wasn't easy.And of course the girls had it the worst, she showed no empathy. But I could see the wheels spinning. A part from her tattoos that were visible she looked like she was the same person that I shared 17 years with.
She did glance away when we got into the deep of the conversation and crossed her arms (defensive gesture) a few times.
How did you/do you feel after the meeting?
Please share your thoughts once you've let everything sink in a bit.
I felt weird. 2-1/2 years is a long time. It was like seeing an old friend after so many years and talking like it was yesterday. But at the same time I was having flash backs at the cold faced, dark eyed monster. I wanted so much to dig into her and tell her off.
However I didn't. The compassion side I have for her kept me at bay. I wanted to see where she was with all this. What her plan was. I really want her to connect with the girls. In a healthy way.
I got a text from her. With pictures of her disguised with 2 other woman. She accompanied them out with their little children. Said it was fun and made her think of times we went out with the girls.
I sent her a picture of the girls.
thanks Irish. They look amazing. So scary. then she replied a question she avoided at our meet up.
You asked me a good question Irish. If one of our girls acted out like I did and did crazy things, or said things that did not make sense. What would I do?
Well I would be the best person she can talk to because I will tell her to love herself, that she will not be any happier and she will only hurt the people she loves and that love her. Good to know. I hope our girls won't go down that path so it's now we need to educate them and be there for them so they hopefully will have the tools to deal with life. I wish your mom did the same but she was probably unable to help you.Irish, can i look for a therapist now for me and the girls. I would like you to sit in as well because it will be important we both tell the tale so the therapist can have the whole picture. I really need you to help me. Lets work on you some more. You are doing great and you can't help others until you help yourself. I hope you understand. I am in your corner. I want the girls to have a healthy mom. I replied at 8pm. Her last post was 4:59pm. She has the habit still of only texting between 8am and 5pm.
8Am today.
Hi Irish. If we talk today can we only talk about the future. Not the past. What can I get the girls for Christmas? I would like to offer them something. Can you give me ideas?Hi XW, well Christmas is not far away and I think we need to pace ourselves. I won't be pushing this on the girls. I hope you understand. Call it controlling, I call it protecting. The girls have been through a lot and you tend to not show empathy to what they went through and how they suffered. The past will need to be dealt with one day. Either we talk about it. The girls talk to you about it or in therapy. We can't just jump to a happy reunion. It will bite us in the butt. I won't let them get hopes up either. I understand Irish. I would do the same. I am working on me. Trying to get past this test or whatever it is. I feel life threw me into a bad place and I am fighting to get out. But I understand you protecting them.
I will ask my therapist tonight what he thinks is good. If I need to wait some more before seeing the girls. When I do see them they need to respect me and not yell or call me names. She is so afraid of confronting them. Disgruntle teens will give it to her. I know my girls. They have strong characters and wont let her twist the story. She needs to be open to that before they meet.
Can I give you money so you can buy them something. Don't tell them its from me. this way I feel like I am part of their Christmas.
I have a question for you. Would you like to be bought. Gifts, money. The girls don't care about gifts. The cared about you. The best gift you can give them is what you are doing now. Working on yourself. You are right. I would never want to be bought into someones life. Thanks I will ask my therapist if he wants to see you. Would you be open to seeing him. Not at the same time as me. But separate so you can tell him you side. Fill in the blanks. Also, I have a question for you. What will it take you to trust me. To convince the girls to see me? that last message was at 4:59pm. I figure no point in answering. I will reply at 8:01am.
it is getting interesting. At the same time I don't see her compassion for the damage she caused. Still about her. Still doesn't ask how they are. So I will continue this as long as I see progress with her therapy. Don't get me wrong. I see a lot of positive. Just not there yet.
have a good night.
Irish
Hi Irish,
You may never see the compassion for the damage she caused that you are looking for. I am going on 2-1/2 years since my ex started to poke her head out like yours is. Unfortunately this part of the marathon we are on seems like it will be the longer part.
My advice is that you shouldn't set goals that are unattainable for your ex. Given your daughters ages, I would consider talking with them and feeling out what they would want to see before they would be comfortable seeing their mother. They may at first come up with crazy expectations but you can help to guide them. Use it as a teaching moment and help them to develop empathy and compassion.
Your ex may never be the mom your girls knew again. My oldest told me the other day that mom is not the mom she remembers growing up. help your daughters to understand that their mother is ill. That she may never be the same as she was.
helping your daughters to grow and sharing with them your compassion will pay off in spades.
She sounds like she is making progress
Only thing is OM..If he is as unhealthy as you thought and she stays with him
It will have to effect her as well.
.I definitely would not want my kids around anyone of influence like a parent or AF if there were drugs involved and even if they are sober
it is a slippery slope
I would address the drug issue and OM with the therapist before a meeting with girls and set a boundary if possible
It may get her to sober up/leave him if it means her R with the girls
Just my opinion. because you say she texts 8-5 only so is he still in picture
unless he is in therapy also to heal his wounds, he is still a problem
Hi Irish, there is a little more sustained and thoughtful contact for sure. I'm also conscious she was very recently saying she wouldn't see them until they were 30/I didn't cheat/oh I did...and so on. Still flip flopping quite a bit and only recently in therapy - but good that she has decided to choose therapy.
I fully agree with Peace about OM and I would share that with the counsellor if you agree to see them. Also, was your XW potentially using too Irish? I can't recall without reading back..??
I think supporting any reconnection at the right time is the right thing to do. But I also think you may be in for the long haul here, with some dips and turns. What kind of boundaries you set on the contact from your XW are up to you. How unsettling is it for you with her texts pinging in and awaiting a response? The best thing I ever did was take the email account of mine (that XH used to comm with me) off my phone. I realised I was living life on eggshells expecting the next instalment at any moment.
After this, I felt such a weight lift as I only accessed my emails at home and at a time to suit me. He couldn't reach me the whole time, only at a time of my choice. Maybe you could deal with her comms at 6pm and have a little break until morning
Anyway, I'm glad for you all if your XW manages to reconnect with her daughters in a way that is healing for everyone - and I'm sure you will be glad in years to come that you supported this too...
Take care Irish and hope there's something useful here for you!
Xx
Irish
Man this to me is just fascinating. I recall back in 2015 when mine was poking out a bit I really wish I had the patience you are showing here, putting the girls first and foremost and also calling things out as you have, she is so eager to jump right back and be 'mom' all the sudden and you wisely are articulating caution as you should not only for the girls but for her as well. Hats off to how you are handling this all there is so much people can and should take from these exchanges.
The MLC tone is still there with her, the fear of begin judged and called out on her chit by the girls seems to be the flagship as I would assume it to be. She overcame that same fear with you ... the girls I guess will be a bit different and she will need to become a bit more healthy to take that on, you see it and have expressed that very well back to her in a non-judgemental way.
My advice is that you shouldn't set goals that are unattainable for your ex. Given your daughters ages, I would consider talking with them and feeling out what they would want to see before they would be comfortable seeing their mother. They may at first come up with crazy expectations but you can help to guide them. Use it as a teaching moment and help them to develop empathy and compassion.
Hi LT,
yes we have had this conversation. D17 right now expects her mom back like she was before she left. D15 wants just to see her ask about them . About her health. They see no love in her messages.
You are right about maybe never seeing that empathy. Time will tell. We are not in a rush.
I would address the drug issue and OM with the therapist before a meeting with girls and set a boundary if possible
It may get her to sober up/leave him if it means her R with the girls
Just my opinion. because you say she texts 8-5 only so is he still in picture
unless he is in therapy also to heal his wounds, he is still a problem
Hi Peace, yes he is still in the picture. Has a huge influence on her based on my last 2 days communicating with her. Until she escapes that grasp she cant move forward.
I'm also conscious she was very recently saying she wouldn't see them until they were 30/I didn't cheat/oh I did...and so on. Still flip flopping quite a bit and only recently in therapy - but good that she has decided to choose therapy.
I fully agree with Peace about OM and I would share that with the counsellor if you agree to see them. Also, was your XW potentially using too Irish? I can't recall without reading back..??
Hi Sotto,
Yes a lot of flip flopping. This is the longest we have been communicating since the beginning of this. She seems to be telling the truth but I catch her a few times slipping into lies. So I hope she continues her navigation to the light through therapy. On her drug use, Before BD, she only tried pot once with me at a party. Before having kids. Hated it. She was up to a month before BD on neighborhood watch , keeping an eye on the park near our home. Kids smoking up and such.
The MLC tone is still there with her, the fear of begin judged and called out on her chit by the girls seems to be the flagship as I would assume it to be. She overcame that same fear with you ... the girls I guess will be a bit different and she will need to become a bit more healthy to take that on, you see it and have expressed that very well back to her in a non-judgemental way.
Hey Cali,
Yes MLC tone very present. She seems to accept my remarks and quickly agrees or appologizes. The girls however she made it clear that they are not to raise their voice, call her out on anything or talk down to her.
So like you said, she needs to be a bit more healthy.
So FDriday Morning. Just after 8am lick clockwork.
Hi Irish :-)
Saw my therapist and he is open to seeing you . We can’t see him together as he is not a couple therapist . That takes a special training . We can find another therapist to handle us together We don’t need a couple therapist . I would assist in any therapy for you and the girls . First for you to help you get through this Just after lunch
I’m Looking to buy a house in 5 years
I have 2 more years to clear my bankruptcy then I’ll save for a house .
I have a plan. I have repairs to do on my car but no money. I'm still driving the same car. I'll need to get a new one, one day. That’s great.
Would be nice closer to our town so the girls can see you more when ready.
I will see them Irish. I know I’m a good mom and I will sacrifice anything to have them in my life. I need to be a mom again. I hate when people ask if I have kids and I need to lie or make up a story. It's killing me inside Well I’m sorry that must be tough. You know Irish, if we do go the therapy I hope we talk openly and work together. I am open to therapy to help you and co-parenting. I get the feeling you are pushing couple therapy. We are not doing that Then then mood changed
Irish , my therapist told me communication is important and I need to ask or say what I feel What is it you want me to do or the girls need me to do . I do have limitations though I can’t tell you what to do or what not to do. It needs to come from you. Your action.And besides you are an adult. Irish tell me. I can’t understand what they want. You can ask them.You have their emails. I need you to help me . Well I’ll be honest with you then. They won’t go to your town or deal with OM. You with OM is a big issue. They don't respect him and don't respect you for being with him.
Both are a major trigger I see , so you are not over me yet. OM bothers you. You can’t accept him so the girls won’t accept him. Irish, I am no way moving back to your town or leaving OMWell then I can’t help you. You say you want the girls back at any cost.
They want you not the enablers I can have his teeth fixed. Maybe that’s what bothers them? Him or another guy it makes no difference
You left them for those things. Put the girls last. During the hardest part of their lives. They don't want gifts, they don't want money.
They want a healthy mom You are a broken man Irish. I see that it’s ok that you have a GF. But I can’t have a BF.
You are jealous lol. Now you manipulate the girls to not like him. You will never change Irish. XW... Stop
You don’t truly see what you did. The effects it has caused
I don’t feel broken. I actually am happy where I am. I am raising 2 beautiful girls that are smart, stable, in school, not rebellious or acting out. Loving and make me smile every day.
I have a great career and yes I started seeing someone. After A YEAR of healing. And several months after that I introduced the girls. She respects me and I respect her. We are not moving in together. And no tattoos to represent our union. She respects the girls and that is the only thing that matters. Where it goes time will tell. I'm not in a rush.
I think we need to step back again and let you work on you.
I would of loved to help you but I think everything was going too fast.
Have a good weekend interesting but what i get from it is she was trying to slip through me so I will convince or push the girls She can't act sane. They girls are aware of come of the conversation. I won;t tell them that their mother still chooses OM over them. XW is still deep in it. No point upsetting the girls.
hope you are all enjoying your weekend. Last message I sent was 4:49pm, Who wants to bet I get one back only on Monday after 8am.
Should I only reply after 5pm? and on weekends?
Per Eew: I see , so you are not over me yet. OM bothers you. You can’t accept him so the girls won’t accept him. Irish, I am no way moving back to your town or leaving OM
Per Eew: You are a broken man Irish. I see that it’s ok that you have a GF. But I can’t have a BF.
You are jealous lol. Now you manipulate the girls to not like him. You will never change Irish.
-----
Can you see she is projecting herself onto you in both these quotes?
xoxoxo
Hi Irish, FWIW I think you may be engaging with her too much here. I would step right back and give yourself a break. And if she contacts you again, just let her know - I need a break from this contact XW. I wish you well and hope you continue with the support you are getting now. Best wishes Irish
Or something along those lines. I think the comms you are having may be going around in circles and she clearly isn't ready to give up OM which is also a deal breaker for you guys...
JMHO of course and I hope others weigh in with some helpful input for you xx
She clearly isn't well enough to have a good conversation with. She's looping over and over again and is projecting on to you what may be within her or what she thinks her therapist has told her. Time to step back a bit and allow her messages to sit for a day or so before responding back to her.
She has brought up a couple of times about her financial situation, i.e., the car especially. Maybe she's hoping that you'll offer to assist her in repairing the car or giving her a loan, i.e., so that she can come see the girls. The car issue, to me, sounds like a poor excuse not to visit w/the girls...but that's my personal opinion.
She is still not ready to look in the mirror and state "I have issues that I need to resolve and I need to own my part in the break up of my marriage and the distance between my girls." Until she does this, she's not well enough to see them. The girls are smart enough to figure things out and they do not want to be around those people who have enabled her.
Snip the loop and I agree w/what Sotto and Bttrfly have written. You do not need to hear her projections.
I agree with Sotto
You gave her the truth..She says she is NOT giving OM up and you as a wise parent with full custody rights can choose to not want a drug addicted /lowlife OM around your girls
What is the hold he has on her?
Maybe if you cut contact for a while, the pain will wake her up
she wants you to help her to get the girls to accept her lifestyle and she can't see that her lifestyle is not healthy if she is dating a drug addict
I also saw that with my XH who M a psychopath /addict
I never regret for a minute pushing XH out of our business and our lives as he clearly choose drugs/ow over everything and he gave up a lot to live in poverty with OW
She is in a good spot right now with her therapy and this boost of reality may help
her see she can't be the great mom she wants to while with OM
I have high hopes for her
Irish, you don't want to go to couple's counseling unless you hope to be a couple.
You said she saw your FB, did you by chance have pics of you and the new GF, perhaps with the girls on there?
This is really looking like a classic MLCer that sees that you have really and truly moved on and is scared.
I think you saw some monster because she didn't hear what she wanted to hear.
Definitely time to step back. You have been kind. You have been open. She is just not ready, as we all suspected. The time will come though.
Irish
Reading along and nodding my head at what has been said. As far as contact I think you know what is good for you, and what seems appropriate. I would wager she emails you from work as you have already figured out her pattern, guessing OM is sensing a shift in her and possibly has been snooping a bit ... just a hunch there to explain her predictible hours of interaction with you.
Another thing that has jumped at me is the 'couple' counseling .. once you firmly shot that down she 180'd and then went mini monster and started projecting. The experience I had, along with a few MLCrs of the female variety is what was labeled as "Branch Swinging" where they will test the waters and ensure they can swing from the OM tree back to the LBS or vice versa, its like they need to have a safe place to land because heaven forbid they are alone and dealing with the issues that have caused the crisis. So that said as I was reading along I was waiting for her to lash out because in a way you telling her no couple counsleing was a form of rejection .... hence why she brought up all those things and mentioned your GF knowing that you have moved from where she left you and they do not like that. Mine has recently accused me of 'brandishing all the women I have been dating in her face and rubbing it in' .... like yours its false and more projection on her part as I am not currently seeing anyone.
As far as advice, I think you are doing well ... I would guess her next contact will be a bit softer as by now she must realize the hard approach will not get her closer to her girls and she can only blame you so much knowing this was the life she chose .. not you .. and certainly not the girls.
Hi everyone
Can you see she is projecting herself onto you in both these quotes?
Hi Bttrfly, yes it's pretty clear. Sad that she chose the projecting tactic again. We all suspected it. I reviewed my FB and nothing says that I am in a couple and no lovey dovey photos of me and GF.
I would step right back and give yourself a break. And if she contacts you again, just let her know - I need a break from this contact XW. I wish you well and hope you continue with the support you are getting now. Best wishes Irish
Hi Sotto, yes this is exactly what I said more or less.
I think we need to step back again and let you work on you.
I would of loved to help you but I think everything was going too fast.
Have a good weekend
You gave her the truth..She says she is NOT giving OM up and you as a wise parent with full custody rights can choose to not want a drug addicted /lowlife OM around your girls
What is the hold he has on her?
HI Peace, No clue what she sees in the guy. Could be sympathy dating or just blind MLC love. They never pick anyone better than the LBS or even themselves. It's as if they need to take a problem person so they can fix them. And to chose him over her girls its just sick.
Yes I have full custody and my girls won't be sleeping in that mans house. His Facebook is covered in trashy woman pics and quotes on drugs. No respect for woman at all. Photos of girls that look no older than my girls in bikinis and short skirts, covered in tattoo and sexual content. He's a pig.
I have high hopes for her
Peace, I too have hopes for her but I am at the point where even that is fading.
Irish, you don't want to go to couple's counseling unless you hope to be a couple.
You said she saw your FB, did you by chance have pics of you and the new GF, perhaps with the girls on there?
Hi OwnIt
definitely no couples counseling. She is not the woman I loved and respected at all. Far from it. I think what I saw at the restaurant was a memory of her. As days go by and my brain processes it all, I see a lost soul. She has become her mother.
I would wager she emails you from work as you have already figured out her pattern, guessing OM is sensing a shift in her and possibly has been snooping a bit ... just a hunch there to explain her predictable hours of interaction with you.
Hi Cali,
I asked her in my last message Friday. Why the 8-5 messaging only? reply is down below
I was reading along I was waiting for her to lash out because in a way you telling her no couple counseling was a form of rejection .... hence why she brought up all those things and mentioned your GF knowing that you have moved from where she left you and they do not like that.
No they don't like that. It triggered something. Quite obvious the projection and even the disgruntle teen reaction.
This morning I wasn't expecting a reply.. Friday seemed clear and I thought it would be a few weeks. I was wrong, many of you were right
So there is nothing more I can do to try to prove to you that girls need me .. I am convinced I can be a good mother, But also I am happy with my decisions and stand my ground.
Yes I write between 8-5 during he week only, because I'm not available on weekends .. I take care of myself, I see friends, I do not even open my cell .. I take time for me !
When the girls want to know more they will contact me. It will not come from you because you will always prevent them from seeing me.
Good-byeNothing really to reply. Now , I'm sure she will be quiet. Let her spin a little with all that was said. As for myself, I'll take the next few weeks away from MLC land and enjoy the winter season. I am so looking forward to the snow. November without snow is just dark and gloomy.
Xmas decorations to prepare and maybe an early December trip to NY.
enjoy your week everyone.
Irish
How sad that a mother could say she wants to be there for her children then say she turns off her phone in the evenings and weekends for me time. I never turn off my phone. I never know when my children will need me.
You did great Irish in not taking the bait. You know she will be back.
She is convinced she can be a good mom but seems unwilling to even give an inch
wants the connection on her terms, not concerned with the possible ill effects of
her new life style with OM and how that may effect the girls
maybe that why the therapist Sid she wasn't ready because she is still in the hold of addiction
I wonder if the turning cell phone off is her party time to escape with drugs as well
It must be hard to be sober and be in a full on relationship with an addict
she might be getting just as high with him over the weekend
I think she needs more time
but maybe this meet up was a step for future change for her once she again FEELS the pain and loss of not being able to persuade you to see life her way and give her what she thinks she wants-her kids back
maybe she will then have to realize her kids coming back or not can't fix her
Just have to love MLCrs .... mine was always a bit selfish but during replay like yours its "me, me, and more time for me". Had to chuckle how she is convinced that she can be a good mom but seconds later shows her hand how selfish she still is and how much work there is to do and ending it with the shot that you are the villian and the reason the girls will not see her, again feeding into what we all know ... she needs to bake more and own her own chit.
She is going to stew and process this a bit, no reply from you will speak volumes and reinforce how everyone else is moving on with life without her.
As Holidays approach the MLCrs will pop out .. I suspect she will contact you in a much kinder tone here in a few days.
RME.
She'll be back. It's just a matter of time.
You on the other hand, are a rock star.
xoxo
I think it’s possible that there is no therapist and she is just saying what she thinks will get you to broker a meeting with the girls.
Yeah, good luck to her with trying to re-enter their lives for the 5 hours/week she feels like it. Clearly she needs to turn up the heat in that oven.
Great job flushing out a temp read on her. As I have said before, you are a tank of a man!
I never turn off my phone. I never know when my children will need me.
Hi OwnIt
I am the same as you. My phone is next to me always. I could be in a corporate meeting and if my kids call.. I answer. My partners know this and respect it. EX lied about not having her phone on. She posted so much after hours events on FB. Tagging herself. UNless she drags her laptop out in a bar. I think its OM time so no kids.
I think she needs more time
but maybe this meet up was a step for future change for her once she again FEELS the pain and loss of not being able to persuade you to see life her way and give her what she thinks she wants-her kids back
maybe she will then have to realize her kids coming back or not can't fix her
I agree Peace. She is not ready. Her therapist said it as well. This meet up wasn't a waste of time. I just kept the boundaries very strong. No going around them. Let her spin for a while and hopefully the next meet up will be followed by some real attempts to connect with the girls.
Had to chuckle how she is convinced that she can be a good mom but seconds later shows her hand how selfish she still is and how much work there is to do and ending it with the shot that you are the villian and the reason the girls will not see her, again feeding into what we all know ... she needs to bake more and own her own chit.
Hi Cali
Yes, very funny message when you look at how it was laid out. The key of it was to make herself feel good. I doubt she accomplished it. Me the villain, that has changed so much throughout this. Over the 2.5 years I went from ( in her words) controlling, manipulative, monster, jerk, @ss, f'ing Irish and then I was great dad, wonderful man, loving Irish, always there, supportive to back to controlling and manipulative. This has been a cycle of compliments and attacks since the start.
It is funny, all depends on her mood and if she gets what she wants. When she doesn't, the rotten teen personality comes out as well as the name calling. When she is in a good state of mind I am a great guy.
She'll be back. It's just a matter of time.
Hey Bttrfly :-)
yes, I'm sure she will .Xmas is around the corner and I'm sure it won't be a good time for her.
I truly felt her pain and anguish sitting across from her. Her mother and step father will be leaving soon to Florida for the winter. So she will be alone with OM. No parents, No kids and she doesn't see her sister at all. I don't know how she does it. MLC is so powerful.
I think it’s possible that there is no therapist and she is just saying what she thinks will get you to broker a meeting with the girls.
That's possible Gordie. If there is no therapist she fooled me. She said all the right things about therapy. Things my therapist told me when I was working on myself. Maybe she is doing the online thing or reading. Either way, her courage to meet up did impress me. 2.5 years and to be able to sit across from me took inner strength. Just not enough to run the entire 5 mile marathon. So no crossing the line on this one and she is sent back to training.
Yeah, good luck to her with trying to re-enter their lives for the 5 hours/week she feels like it. Clearly she needs to turn up the heat in that oven.
Hi HaWho
Yes, not a true attempt after so much time. I would be with them 30 hours out of the 24 hours in the day. Now, I cant expect that right off the bat from her but I did expect more. The girls told me their expectations and they are quite reasonible.
- Move closer to them
- No OM ( even no OM in the shadows) OM meaning this guy. Drugs and disrespect of woman on his Facebook. He clearly has no place in their lives and they won't accept him in their mothers lives.
- Therapy with them
- No drugs or Alcohol in their presence.
- No grandmother, she is dead to them
- Be available and make up for lost time.
- Talk open about what happened
I think this is more than reasonable and very easy to do. If she really wanted it.
hope you are all well.
Irish
Hi Irish , I've been following along and exw seems to have read the mlcers handbook from cover to cover.
Your rejection of couples counselling was a slap in the face to
her so she read the handbook and reacted like a spoilt child.
My own take on the whole sitch is the pressure / stress on the girls. This whole thing is extremely tough on them and in my very humble opinion they should be allowed live their lives without this spectre hang over them daily. If EXW is indeed a student of the mlcer handbook then exw has a long long way to go and even then who knows. The girls list is more than resonable to the average joe but to exw its mount Everest x 100 right now.
Again just my humble opinion.
Take care , Rd
Hi Irish, I haven’t been following the board for a while, and when I came back to read your thread, just WOW! All I can say, you’ve been handling it very well. I agree with others, she is not ready to repair the relationship with the girls, but she’s made a great progress, in my opinion. At least I can tell that the desire to do it is there. But… what a rollercoaster! You are so right to protect your Ds from all of the details. Your girls expectations of your ex are very reasonable and should be very simple to address when she is ready.
Take care.
yes, reasonable absolutely - nearly impossible in her current state. I'm not sure about the "if she really wanted it" statement. I think she does want her girls but doesn't have the strength to get herself out of the pickle she put herself in with this hostage taking relationship.
The girls' clarity is due to your consistency. Well done bud!!
xoxo
girls response seems very reasonable
Time will hopefully get your XW back to reality
Hi Irish,
I just caught up on your thread. Wow, what a ride... I'll chime in with my 2 cents.
Point 1
And my 2 cents might be a bit at odds with the thoughts of others. Your daughters are not babies or toddlers and IMO you might be a bit over protective with them. I get it that you are a papa bear and you want to shield them from each and every harm in the world.
IMO they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to have any contact with their mother. It is very likely they do not.
Point 2
To me you sounded a bit judgemental in your conversations with your W, but on the other hand to me she came off like an absolute basket case.
IMO you she still has ways to push your buttons, but with an occasional slip up, you are acing your replies.
I too think that you should step back a bit and let her cook, she is not done yet.
Cheers, V
Hi Rd, Bright, Bttrfly, Peace and Vapo.
Sorry I've been away from the group this time a year is so busy and I don;t get much time to sit down and read up on everyone's progress.
RD, yes XW must have a copy of the MLC handbook. She seems to react as expected. Her mothers own MLC lasted over 3 years.. and even then from what I heard from several family members she never came back to the loving, caring person she once was. It was always about her and her survival. Surviving what? that's a tough question to answer. I guess surviving her own depression and avoiding the deep look into herself to see what damage she caused. She clearly avoided any discussion of it. I guess that;'s why now with her own daughter in MLC she is seeking therapy.
Bright, Yes I do see progress, She had the strength to see me face to face after 2 years. Hopefully, if she is still in therapy it will guide her through. Or at least make her healthy enough to want to really connect with the girls.
Bttrfly, thanks for all the support you give me. I think the pickle shes stuck in , is at the bottom of a jar with the lid screwed on real tight.
Peace, yes , I hope one day too she gets well enough to start to rebuild what once was a loving relationship between mom and daughters.
Vapo, your point 1 , they do want to see mom. Only thing is they want old mom not this new person. We have discussed it and I have told them over and over they are free to reach out to her. They have a certain connection with her. They know she is not well and she is better off alone. They believe one day she will wake up and really make an effort. Until then they wish to not see her like this.
On your point 2. Yes she got to me. Seeing her sitting across from me for the first time in over 2 years i felt for a minute like she was her old self. That hearing her voice brought me back to before all this MLC. It didn't last long once she started talking about her plans and she went on. Clearly she was either poking out of her hole and had a slight clarity going on or she was just playing the game. Saying what i wanted to hear. Either way i shook it off.
The only news I got from XW was when I needed some government papers that was sent to her instead of me. these are for admission to college for D17. You see last summer she applied to College and was refused since her mid terms were low and they wanted to see improvement when she finally finished high school. Well she did pull up her grade and successfully graduate. Her application to college had to wait until this winter semester starring January 2018.
So I message Ex
Hi, can you mail or email me the documents you received from the school board on D17 final grades. I need it so she can apply for college. She missed the fall registration due to low grades but has brought them up and ready to apply again, thanks
Ohhh poor D17. She is going through so much, She should see a therapist. You know Irish, I want to see them but they don't accept my choices. I can;t do more for her,. Now you are the "best" dad, you fix it. Good night.
So that was Nov 28. The last I wrote her and the last i heard from her. I will not reach out to her aver again for anything concerning the girls. Narcissism 101 . she will not help anybody but herself.
that brings me to something i stumbled on. I now see that MLC is narcissism . 100% read this , i'm sure it will reflect much of who your spouse has become.
Mine hits all 14 points.
1- Two faced, putting friends and family down behind their backs.
2- Tendency to blame their lack of success and failures on others.
3- Acts different in public than in private.
4- Irresponsible and unreliable.
5- Arrogant, acts superior to people close to them.
6- Lives in a fantasy world which may include porn, flirting, affairs and dreams of unlimited success and fame.
7- Addiction to this fantasy oriented behavior.
8- Will lie and distort facts and change events to suit their own agenda.
9- Be irresponsible with money.
10- Emotionally distant and unavailable unless they want something.
11- Lack sympathy for others, especially those they exploit.
12- Be very controlling and unable to relax.
13- Regularly provoke people and blame them for the fight.
14- Have trouble admitting their mistakes.
Hoping you all a great pre-holiday time to enjoy local activities with your kids and families.
I am busy with work and gathering items for the homeless. Lots of running around.
Irish,
I'm pretty good at being patient, but your xw....well her response to your email just made me want to smack her. So, in other words, it sounds like she's not going to mail you the documents.
Yes, narcissism does come out fully in MLC. Remember, child exhibit this when they are little. Some of them walk around say "mine" when interacting with others. MLCers are very self-centered and selfish 100% and always want to look the best to their public so that they are perceived to others as being great.
I'm truly sorry she's still acting the way she is. I had hoped that by seeing a therapist she would be further along...but she's one stubborn lady and it may take a while, if not forever. She is missing out on so much w/her girls. Such a shame!
Please take care of yourself and those lovely young ladies.
Hey, Irish! I usually just follow along with your posts quietly, but that was an interesting reaction from your MLCer.
So, she's seeing a therapist, trying to figure out why her life is the way it is, and is obviously having to confront her part in things little by little. That's gotta be very painful. Most of us have gone through the same process as we've traveled the LBS road...acknowledging our part in our breakups. So what happens when we do this?
-We have the "epiphany".
-We get very excited because we see it.
-We get sad because we feel horrible about what we have done.
-We want to share our new found knowledge with our (other
person) and anyone else who can help, hoping they'll say
"yes! you get it now!" and work with us on what we want.
Show us we are stil valued.
-When that doesn't happen with our other, we sit with it and
slowly get a little angry that they aren't understanding our
efforts.
-We then try to take control of something, ANYTHING, in the
situation to feel that we have some control over something.
We do this by lashing out, spewing, or saying no to simple
little requests JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. Or, we beg and cry.
Sort of a wimpy attempt to control.
-Then we feel awful, often going into a depression or down
period. This is when we get to again do some soul searching,
either alone, with others, or with (hopefully) a really good
therapist. Then the cycle begins again.
Any of it sound familiar?
As much as it drives us crazy or looks just like bad behavior, its part of a process. And it looks to me like she might actually have a helpful therapist guiding her through the process. So, ignore (as you are) the bad behavior...don't acknowledge it. But feed the good behavior with praise and understanding. Basic dog training, really, LOL. In other words, do just what you're doing.
I really just wanted to say, keep up the good work...you are a fantastic father and are handling the situation very well. It is a pleasur to follow along and learn from your situation.
Irish,
Wow, that was a really lame response. No, she’s not going to do the simplest thing for any of you, sadly. And yes, your list is spot on. Wow, reminds me I’m not the crazy one.
Hi Irish, re exw response, typical of someone with no control trying to exert some. Not worth a second thought my friend. Yes they all follow the , me , me , me script but let them. Xmas around the corner and no doubt Santa will be calling to the Irish household. Have a great one and the same to your family.
Take care, Rd
Merry Christmas to you all. Happy Holidays. To many of us this time is hard. Not having that family we so crave for as a whole.
I think I finally reached to point where I am content with those I have in my live. Those who want to be here.
Why would I want a broken wife killing the happy loving buzz of the season. I don't. I had an amazing Christmas with my family, friends and work colleagues.
I'll reply to the last post first then update.
I'm truly sorry she's still acting the way she is. I had hoped that by seeing a therapist she would be further along...but she's one stubborn lady and it may take a while, if not forever. She is missing out on so much w/her girls. Such a shame!
Hi Job, yes its the forever part I am starting to see. If I compare her to her mom the girls will have to accept her as such (and they hate their cold, narcissistic grandmother) so XW has become just that.
As much as it drives us crazy or looks just like bad behavior, its part of a process. And it looks to me like she might actually have a helpful therapist guiding her through the process. So, ignore (as you are) the bad behavior...don't acknowledge it. But feed the good behavior with praise and understanding. Basic dog training, really, LOL. In other words, do just what you're doing.
Hi Ciluzen. yes feed the good. And yes to the basic Dog training. Only thing is some dogs can't be taught new tricks. And since OM is there I am the last one to offer her a treat to help her learn faster. If she does move forward and truly take hold of it.. I will help. I will not block any contact from her to the girls. As you will see in my update.
reminds me I’m not the crazy one.
Gordie, you are no where close to being crazy... you are just on Ozzys (MLC) crazy train. Next stop... Gordie 2018. You need to let W go on her ride alone.
Not worth a second thought my friend. Yes they all follow the , me , me , me script but let them.
Yes.. me me me.. well that's a word I don't respond to anymore. I met her needs as a husband and father to our girls. There is no me, myself or I in this family... family is a group living together. Loving each other. Whether it be man and wife , with kids or without, it could be with pets. Or just a good bunch of friends living under one roof. My family is intact. XW is not part of it and that's her choice.
now for a small update.. I've been away from the site because of work and some work with homeless shelters in my area. its the 5th year I collect jackets, gloves, clothes, blankets, scarves and hats for the homeless. I also added toys to abused woman's shelters this year. They usually leave abusive home with nothing so I wanted to make sure the kids they bring in with them have a little something at Christmas.
well 2 nights on the street after hours handing out this warmth and a full day delivering the rest to 3 shelters. The homeless woman's shelter was the hardest and I am going back on the 30th of December. there were 2 woman when i arrived that jumped on my boxes.. I had a full load in my jeep. Lots of jackets but only a few pairs of boots.
I was missing size 8 and especially size 9 boots. My heart broke with her disappointment. So i promised I will be back with some size 8 and 9. If I cant get them donated I'll buy them at the store.
as for XW. no news from her all Christmas. nothing to the girls. No letter or card. Nothing from the MLC grandmother( 29 months of nothing)
Just as we were driving to my parents i asked the girls. So nay news from your mom. Both said no. D17 said, I guess that's it.
I get in my parents place and sit down to a fine Guinness. and Beep Beep. A text from XW
I know you wont believe me when I tell you this. I hope you have a great Christmas and new years. my you find love and happiness . serenity and peace for 2018. kiss the girls for me . tell them I love themI hold off. no response. I Was taking back a little because not 5 minutes before I had asked the question to the girls if they heard anything and this starts. I guess psychic abilities is added to the LBS's new skills
another text comes in.
I do miss them. I reply.
then why don't you message them directly. no need to go through me. My mom misses them too. that is where I lost it.. sorry but enough is enough.
your mom misses them ? she hasn't ever once reached out to them. No card , no email, no nothing. She is their grandmother and has no excuse for abandoning them. She is not in a dark place that you are as you so put it. What's her excuse. I don't want to fight.
I have the flu.. I am very sickThis isn't a fight. It's me making conditions. If you want to talk to the girls go direct. If you want to talk to me about something about the girls or talk about your progress then go ahead. But to tell me you miss them and so does your mother. I don't want to hear it without actions.Merry Christmas and once again silence and Peace is in the valley of MLC.
Her birthday is end of January. Last year she barked at the girls in an email saying how she has the right as a mother to do what she wants and they owe it to her. Lets see her game plan thins year.
WOW! Well, from one LBS to another, may 2018 be much better for us all. I will raise a glass to you for the new year my brother.
Wow Irish...
Holy crap... Stay strong buddy.You are doing an absolute awesome job with the girls. Keep fighting the good fight, we are all in your corner.
V
Irish,
I am so glad to read that you and the girls had a nice Christmas holiday.
Well, what can I say? She's still wanting the attention focused on her. Communication is a two way street and it certainly doesn't appear that the communication line is broken if she can text you. Well, if the two MLCing women are missing the girls, I don't believe their fingers are broken, nor do I believe that the girls have changed the numbers or email addresses. This is so very, very sad...but that's on them. They are the ones losing out on the girls growing up and being a part of their lives.
Irish, keep up the good. You are such a good father and your girls know it.
She has the flu. My heart pumps Robitussin. Sorry Irish. I am straight out of empathy tonight. The cold makes me cranky and it's 13 here with wind chill feels like it's 2 degrees. I have been cold all day, as my workplace isn't warm and gets worse after the sun goes down. I am not in a happy place, so that is your context for this post
You did very well to point out her mother isn't in crisis. Notice she had no response to that one. Perhaps she's afraid to contact the girls. Who knows.
You on the other hand are doing great!!! I love that you're working with the homeless in your area. My boss and I ran a photo studio for women and children at a local shelter so they could have family photos. It was crazy - 28 families in 90 minutes! Some of the kids were a real challenge and someone dressed as Santa so we got a lot of photos. The participants were so thrilled. The kids were adorable. I lost my heart to a few of them. It never ceases to surprise me how much more I get from volunteer work than I'm sure I ever give. Service is so very important.
I also loved what you had to say about family. I don't know when the last time was that I felt like a family with exh -- it was long before BD, that much I do know. For me, family is my pets, my son and my friends as well as parents and cousins. It transcends blood and is made up of a tightly knit group who supports and honors each other.
My friend, you have come so far. I'm terribly proud of you! xoxoxoxo
Much love and all the best for 2018. Serenity NOW ! hahhahhaha! xoxoxo
Irish...THIS IS BEAUTIFUL, THANK YOU:
Yes.. me me me.. well that's a word I don't respond to anymore. I met her needs as a husband and father to our girls. There is no me, myself or I in this family... family is a group living together. Loving each other. Whether it be man and wife , with kids or without, it could be with pets. Or just a good bunch of friends living under one roof. My family is intact. XW is not part of it and that's her choice.
***
How you handle your xw’s crazy is exemplary.
Happy New year Irish, keep on being the best dad you can be and giving those girls a rock in their lives.
You are an example to us all.
Take care , Rd
happiest of new years my friend xoxoxoxo
Happy New Year to you and your family!
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE.
SBJ, cheers to you. and yes 2018 will be much better for us all. as we are looking forward. Living our lives the best we can.
Vapo. I am so happy to have you all in my corner as I am in yours.
Job, yes she has their cell phones and emails. They are on instagram and facebook., so easy to message there as its open to receive messages. She is definitely missing out.
Bttrfly, Yes the flu.. I know .. I`m sure if it wasnt that there would be another excuse for not reaching out to her own daughters.`Maybe a zombie apocalypse or something.. flu is right up there.
Gordie, you are welcome . You are on the good path too. keep your head up and Gordie 2018 is doing it right.
RD, I will continue. it`s in my DNA. love being dad.. love being a family guy.
So no news from XW... I guess she must be glad its all over.. the holidays. As for us, we had an amazing Xmas and New years.
D17 starts college this month and D15 is back to grade 10 next week. All good. As for me, Work will be busy this January.
Facebook this morning gave me a pop up. What happened on this day 3 years ago. We were all on a mexico trip. XW was with us. I had deleted her and her photos from that memory soon after BD so nothing about her showed up. Only the vacations and me and the girls.
D17 comes up stairs for breakfast today.. she says
Dad, did you see the facebook memory?
yes,great time. Loved looking at the pics again. You girls grew so much. All good?
yes , great actually. I't made me think of what mom said just before she left, about our family.
Her mom said this as she walked out the door. Sorry girls to ruin your family. That we we will no longer have the great trips and vacations.. no family outings or the last minute get-aways . Sorry girls to ruin your perfect family. But I need to think of me know. It's my time.
You know dad she was wrong.. we still had them. She just missed out.Her loss.
she gave me a hug and I made her the best breakfast .
D15, she came up after..she likes to sleep in.lol
She made no fuss about the post and simply asked.. when do I start school again? Told her the 8th and she thanked god it wasn't tomorrow then hit Netflix.
I'm very lucky with my 2 girls. It goes back to what I said the other day... family doesn't die when one pulls out..things don;t stop or end. Happiness, love and good times continue, it's what you want family to be..
hope 2018 we all are happy with our families and loved ones. Everything else is just lost time.
That's a very good statement Irish ... you've done one helluva job with those girls
Happy New Year
{{{{{{{Irish}}}}}}}
You know as I read what eew said to the girls, I couldn't help feeling that there was a ton of resentment and jealousy that they had the family she didn't. Have you ever felt that or am I out in left field?
You're a great dad. Your girls are more like you, just as eew said, and that's a good thing my friend ! xoxoxo
Irish,
That is the one thing I learned here years ago. One parent has to be their rock and make a difference in their lives.
I know it's hard in the beginning but your journey shows that it can be done and that you and (kids, etc) can flourish by creating an awesome life.
Well done my friend.
Mirage
Irish,
Thanks. I needed to hear that. My oldest is struggling with the loss of her family, in her words.
My stbx said those exact words: it’s my time. I need to think of me.
Haven't they all said those exact words. It's in the script. The similarities are crazy, even though they act so different in other aspects of life.
yes script.... it's scary but at the same time if you read the script before it happens seems almost comical. Like them learning their lines and presenting them to us the spectator. Only I won't be handing out any best actress awards any time soon to my XW.
Well by buddy who's own wife is deep in her own MLC. They have separated and he has his own place now.. He found peace but is finding it hard to disconnect. Watching her Facebook, driving by the house, asking anyone associated with her about her. She still throws him some bait when she feels him pulling away. Thank god he has no kids with her. He is deeply in love and still wearing the rose colored glasses. Time will fix that.
Well she, we will call her Sandy. Sandy and my buddy along with my XW and me would go out nights.. dinner.. drinks etc. It all went south when my XW hit her MLC. she deleted us all . Facebook etc.
a few months ago my buddy's wife Sandy has her own MLC. Affair, long distance soul mate, gambling, drugs, Botox, search for youth, spending all her money etc..
I keep my distance and try to help my buddy. In the meantime my XW adds Sandy as Facebook friend. I see this as a pop up .. Sandy is now friends with XW. I immediately delete Sandy because it was about the same time my XW said someone was feeding her info about me via FB.
time goes by.
Last week, my buddy says to me.
Sandy asked me why you weren't friends with her anymore on FB. ( she just realized so not that close a friend lol.)
My buddy says he told her that since she disrespected him I deleted her out of respect to him. And that because she added my XW, i wanted nothing to do with her.(true)
Then he goes on to say she was shocked. That since me and my XW are so close and friendly these days I shouldn't be upset. He asks her to clarify and told her that she still doesn't see the girls.
She tells him that... my XW said recently that me and my XW co-parent amazingly. That she sees the kids very often. That all the drama is behind us and all is good. happy happy.
If that was her wish and dream .. I wish for the same but we are far from that. I can't believe she continues to lie about her relationship with the kids. I really think she believes it too.
When I went for coffee months ago, she did tell me she was exhausted about making up reasons why she doesn't see the kids. So I guess she decided to just say she sees them. I wish she would send me some pictures of their outings. I'm curious where she takes them.
Her birthday coming up.. You never know, maybe she will wish to see them when blowing out the candles and a miracle will happen .
cheers everyone.
Irish
Very interesting story Irish. I have long suspected that my H must lie about our status and his involvement with the children.
When he left he told people that I was keeping him from the children. People are not stupid. There is no way he is still telling them that 15 months later. I have surmised, as your story, that he tells people that we are getting along fine and he sees the kids as much as he can.
Who knows if it is what she wishes it would be or whether it is just that most people don't have a framework for understanding a mother who walks away from her children, and like mine she is probably tired of having to counter the arguments about you preventing her from doing so (there are courts and emergency hearings right, everyone has seen at least one courtroom drama).
Many people live in denial
an alcoholic will believe they don't drink that much and they really believe it
a smoker believes the cigarettes won't really harm them
MLC er's all seem to have this in common
they lie and they believe their lies
It gets them through
My XH once looked me straight in the eye and said you wanted this D
like it was a mutual thing
he lied about his A until he got caught
he lied about his drug usage even while attending AA meetings
once in MLC he really lied about everything
its good you can see your wife for who she is
hopefully your friend will see his Mlcer also
my exh's solution is to move to another town and not see anyone. shrugs. it is what it is. I'm sorry your friend is in that tough place of still being so firmly attached. He is very lucky to have you.
xoxo
Irish - wow, that must be awful to have to go around pretending to that level.
Roll on you Tank!
Dear Irish
Happy new year....
Reading along and I just really wonder how these mlcers think. Addition definitely affects their feelings and emotions. They always feel sorry for themselves and have no empathy to anyone else. They consider themselves in pain alone while everyone else is happy.
The problem is they are not faking it they are really in emotional distrust that they inflicted on themselves but unfortunately they can’t see it. Hence all the made up stories are to justify their stories.
I do believe now that nothing we can do can wake them up. It is a decision they have to do. I just we we can treat them as a sick stranger without judgement .
Something I am so much struggling at right now. Because of all the history we had with them and we had known them to be something else in the past.
When I look at lbs in general we are at a much better place couple of years after the issue cause we faced one of the most difficult situations in life and survived. It needs sometime but get better but for them I wonder if they can forget and move on for ever.
Keep posting...
Hi Lana
Yes us LBS are in a better place. As for the MLC . I’m not sure any of them can be truly happy. We don’t hear much from them sadly.
So D17 started college. A semester late but she’s in. So excited for her. We did a few trial runs on the bus and subway to town. She never went into the city alone. She did great as I stood way back. The next 2 times she went solo like a preadult.
She texted me that first day alone.
“Dad, I feel so grown up. “
“Well you are D17. My baby has grown up. I’m so proud.xx”
Then a “thanks Dad, for being there for me through all this. Love you”
Let’s just say that made my year 2018.
I’ve been working too much and some out of town trips . Most of which is this week. So glad my parents are there for Support. Girls are doing great . I drove 6 hours there and back to sleep one night at home yesterday. Just to touch base and make sure they had what they needed. All good and movie night with them.
Also a funny thing happened yesterday. It was XW’s birthday. Girls didn’t mention it. And I only realized it because it’s also my brothers birthday. So it actually went unnoticed.
One thing I’m glad of . XW didn’t send them any messages like the last 2 years .
The ones where she says they need to respect her. She’s entitled to a happy birthday because she is afterall their mom.
I’m back home this Sunday with no travels for a few weeks. Miss my girls
Hope you are all good . Thinking of you all. Xox
Congratulations to your daughter! She may be a semester late, but she got in and she's going to do great. She's going to enjoy college and making new friends along the way. She's growing up and realizes that you are a very special man. She knows that you've been there for her, as well as her sister.
Irish, you are a wonderful father and your girls know it. Your support will not be forgotten by your daughters. You have so much to be proud of.
Irish how are you. Can you give us an update on your sitch.
OLW
Hi OLW
Well we (myself and the girls), are doing fine. No real change with our situation as XW is now but a shadow of our past.
The girls don't bring her up and I have no reason to.
D17 is now a proud license owner. She is using my Jeep once in a while. I am looking to get her a small starter car for her 18th birthday.
D15 is doing great as well. Focusing more on school than on boys. We are expecting a call from the hospital anytime now to have a follow up scan to last years scare. Her cyst in her brain has caused little to no reaction this year. Which is good. Still, I am looking forward to having it done and putting it behind us.
We are heading out this week to Memphis. Visit with the King ( still alive i know). If I see him, I'll say hi. After all he hit 42 and maybe a MLC'r.He left everything to be a DEA.Has a badge to prove it. Went under cover. I mean how crazy is that lol, but it would answer that old question of if he is still alive.
After that heading to Nashville. Johnny Cash fan here.
Hope you are all well. I've been MIA myself for a few weeks.
I'll catch up when I get back.
ohhh. St Patricks day soon. Cheers to you all. Raise a pint to all of us survivors.
Have a wonderful trip and travel safely.