Songs and Stories From The Far Shore - Verse 2

Divorcebusting.com

I've really lost count of the threads that I have here. Here's a link to the last one. It's a crazy path through the deep dark woods if you are foolish enough to chose to trace back

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758899&page=1

As the narrator would say "Our story so far". Most of it is summarized in the signature. Keep in mind that it has been said that every autobiography has an obvious hero.

- Wife hits 50 years old and menopause and empty nest plus trauma in family of origin. Gets grumpy and husband tries to up his game at being appreciative and loving.
- Wife starts meeting a friend for lunch who just lost his wife to cancer.
- Meetings turn into an emotional affair
- Emotional affair turns into physical affair
- Plan is conceived (speculation) for wife to move out and "find" a new love interest
- Husband (our hero) is told while on a romantic tropical vacation on his birthday by wife that she is leaving him because of unspecified reasons.
- Husband tries desperately to figure out what he's done wrong and discovers existence of OM
- Wife confirms infidelity and moves out of MBR
- Wife hangs around the house cycling between euphoria and depression for several months. Affair soon goes underground while our hero imagines that it is over and starts writing really really long posts on the DB site and arguing with people
- Wife moves out taking much furniture and her dog (our hero cheers at the last bit) and confirms that affair is still on-going but also sends mixed messages about possible reconciliation
- Our hero stands steadfast and true for several months while continuing to abuse his mal-functioning mind-reading turban. His fortitude flags.
- After an unexpected close encounter where he sees that even though he is still presenting himself publicly as married that his wife isn't he removes his rings (awwwww)
- More time passes and then a temperature check happens. The temperature is mis-read possibly due to a faulty turban
- More time passes
- Confirmation that things with OM continue and our hero finally stands down
- more months pass
- Wife is outed by friends on social media that she has a "new" guy. Our hero is finally freed to tell his children and acquaintances about his vigil and why he kept silent.
- More months pass
- Son moves home unexpectedly so our hero has someone other than his cats to talk to
- More months pass
- Wife contacts lawyer and the legal stuff. Wife's narrative of events to her lawyer consists of "alternate facts"
- Husband gets paperwork in order for the third time and starts paying legal bills

Our story continues .....

I've learned an awful lot about infidelity, relationships, myself and the legal system over the last 18 months that I've been on this journey. While I'm not healed completely I'm doing a lot better than I was.

The end game is perhaps being played now where the divorce is inevitable. Many people around me believe that to be the best outcome possible for me in a bad situation. I just hope that the financial and more importantly emotional bleeding can be minimized.

OwnIt / Job - thank you for the visit and your comments. I'm responding here rather than on my prior thread to keep visibility.

She may indeed dispute the Opinion of Value but I don't expect her to unless it comes in really low. The totals involved aren't large - we live in a comparatively very cheap part of the world. To toss around numbers, I have an old appraisal of $105K which is the number that my proposal from January references. I have a municipal assessment that we both agree is too high of $170K. She was ball-parking a number of $140K. The range is pretty narrow so this is really just an exercise in paperwork. If the opinion of value comes in really low which is a possibility then I may agree to ignore it in favour of a number somewhere in the range we were already talking about depending on how hard she pushes on other items.

In other news - as I was writing this post I got this month's bill from my L which drains most of the $2K retainer. The bill is a bit bigger than I might have thought but not really out of line for the work performed. One line item I questioned but am agreeing to pay ('cuz I'm a heck of a nice guy). I had been concerned that my case wasn't getting any attention and that my lawyer was unprepared and sure enough - no charges at all prior to the collaborative meeting to review any of my documents but there was one from yesterday. In my acknowledgement of receipt of the invoice I did express concerns that my case wasn't "getting the attention I hoped for" and exactly as I typed that a fresh email came in acknowledging receipt of my email from last week. I think that they've woken up to the fact that there's money to be made off me and that things might not be as simple as they expected when they weren't bothering to read any of my documents.

Journaling

It's been a good long weekend. I had a couple of encounters that make me feel rather good about the world that I live in.

On Saturday I was trying to find the "only in Canada" treats that D25 and her H were wanting me to take down to them when I visit in a few weeks. Most of the list was easy except for one particular chocolate bar. As I was standing lost and confused I happened across a lady and her two young girls in the snack food aisle. I happened to mention that I was lost and confused looking for Crispy Crunch chocolate bars. The lady pointed me in the direction of the aisle that I had already searched thoroughly and in the conversation she happened to mention that she was a single Mom and I mentioned that I was a single Dad. I was completely unable to find the chocolate and gave up but as I was in the queue to check out who should swoop in but this rather nice lady holding up the missing chocolate. My day was seriously made. I'm still smiling.

Another interesting / positive encounter of the opposite gender sort happened at my regular bake shop. A lady who works there from time to time seems to be getting more hours. I know her and one of her daughters because S23 went to school with her daughter. I was rather surprised when this lady made a point of sitting with me while I was having my lunch and we chatted a bit. Again - a positive interaction that made me feel good. I did have a bit of a LOL because while this lady and I are not "Facebook friends" we are connected via Instagram. Within minutes of me posting a landscape picture from today's hike she had pressed "like". Possibly meaningless but still it's nice to feel "attractive" even in social media.

In other news S23 has alternated between grumpy and cheerful with cheerful dominating. Being as it has been the first weekend of the month the big clean of the house was scheduled. Much scrubbing and dusting has happened. S23 though volunteered to do the vacuuming and sweeping without being asked. While he didn't do it to my "standards" it largely got done and I made a point of appreciating it and won't be going over what he missed. It's just a few dust bunnies. The world will not end.

My single ticket is booked for the charity dinner at the end of the month now. I'd debated getting a pair of tickets but no - I'm single and will be attending things as single for the foreseeable future. But more and more I'm getting to be OK with that.

I also spent a bunch of time out-doors this weekend and thanks to S23 helping around the house did some extra hiking putting in about 15km over the weekend.

Since Coly23 is often interested in my menu (waves) tonight on Labour Day the menu was a salmon fillet with potatoes and veg. During dinner I queued up a Beethoven string quartet thinking about a good friend who I haven't heard from in some time. We have a shared interest in some novels and in one of them "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" - Beethoven's music plays a minor role.

So - time for me to pack things up for the work week. I have some colleagues from Mexico City flying up mid-week to discuss best practices on managing chemicals with short shelf lives (my life is "ever" so exciting) and on Thursday I have another "collaborative" meeting with STBX. Hopefully this one will have some progress towards a resolution.

Too all those who are "playing the home game" I give you one of my favourite quotes from a CBC radio program called "The Dead Dog Comedy Hour" - "Stay Strong, Be Brave, Wait For The Signs"

Well this is weird. I'm normally a very balanced and calm person but for some reason today I'm feeling anger.

The timing is not good because the second collaborative meeting is this afternoon.

I'm angry at my lawyer for not taking my case seriously ignoring my requests for opinion or follow-up while in recent days making repeated demands for documents that I've already agreed to provide and then providing documents filled with mistakes in transcription. Bloody clerical paper pusher .... And to think that this is one of the most senior family law lawyers in the area. What sort of Family Law lawyer doesn't know the difference between an Appraisal and an Opinion of Value? These obvious mistakes are very concerning. Lawyers are supposed to be sticklers for being precise. I know that as someone trained as a mathematician that I'm perhaps more so than most but sheesh!

I'm angry at my STBX for making this happen.

I'm angry at STBX for dragging this out for two bloody years rather than being open and honest as soon as she decided that she had found a new guy that she picked over me.

I'm angry at myself for allowing things to drag out but also proud of myself for standing true through the pain and anger of betrayal out of duty, loyalty and love to something that I believed in.

I'm angry at STBX for possibly setting S23 on me as a spy. I know that over Christmas from one of the non-obvious surveillance cameras she had him go through the office. He's also made sure to be present at all discussions with the realtors which is quite out of character. I hate that I have been suspicious of my own son. That's not right.

I'm also angry at her for nagging the realtors for a copy of the document they were creating for me (they asked me privately if it was OK for them to share it). She's the one who lies, not me.

I was also triggered by one of STBX's favourite songs coming on the radio - "My Church" by Marren Morris which talks about being proud of lies and cheating and which would get cranked up whenever it came on.

Sigh.

Positives.

I know myself to be angry and I know that I can't let it control me.

I know that S23 loves me as well as his mother and is in a difficult spot.

The fact that STBX was asking for the Letter of Opinion means that she is actually getting prepared for the meeting this time. The last meeting was a bust with her having nothing together.

I know that there are many kind people in this world who care for and about me.

I know that there is nothing that STBX can do to me that is worse than what she has already done.

I know that I have a plan for all of the contingencies that I can envision and know that I can control the agenda in the meeting if it goes in directions that I don't want. I want a settlement - not arguing over the value of a tea service.

I know that I have the power at this point to say NO and to walk away from the table if there is no acceptable deal presented.

I know that I have the power to fire my lawyer even if it means walking away from the related sunk costs.

I know that there is a far shore - I can almost see it.

I know that I am ME and that that person is a kind, caring, loving person who does indeed deserve better than this.

I know that I am a person who will face whatever comes his way and deal with it regardless of whether it is something he deserves or not.

My hero - the Knight of the Rueful Countenance would be proud of me I hope. But like him - I am tired, so very tired.

Thanks for listening / reading. Letting this stuff out in a safe place always helps me.

Andrew,

It's about time you got angry. You've been a very calm, level headed man throughout all of this. Yes, you have every reason to be angry and it's good to get this out of your system before the meeting today.

Not every lawyer will represent you the way that yours has. Some are truly sincere in representing clients. My lawyer was very similar to yours and I finally had to ask him..."Who are you presenting...me or him? If you are presenting me, then you better get with it." Some look at how many billable hours they can get because they do know what a person in crisis will do. Mine knew that my xh was out to lunch and so did his lawyer.

I've often thought that your son was providing info to your w. Interesting that he wanted to be there when your had the walk thru recently and who knows...he could have had his cell phone recording the conversation. MLCers will use any body and every body to get what they want. I am sorry if this is what your son has been doing.

Now, about today...put on a smile, leave the anger at the door, but be firm, and if you don't like something, speak up in a very calm voice. The less emotion you show, the better. This is now about a contract that has gone bad and the two parties need to resolve the business end of that said contract. The w you knew is gone and the person that is inhabiting her body is a pod person who is going to possibly drag this out until you toss up your hands and say enough.

I will be praying for you today.

Andrew,

Best wishes today and ha m your for journaling. You write how I feel which is a relief of sorts. The thing with your s is really hard but in the end you knows he loves you which is most important.

I am so sorry if your son really has been spying on you, good luck for today and keep calm.

Andrew:

Try not to assume the worst. Given that he loves you both I seriously doubt he wants to be put in the middle like that.

I hope today's meeting went better than expected and you are getting where you want to be.

Job - Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers. Even though I'm not particularly religious I do appreciate it. No matter where my future paths lead me I will always treasure your kind and calm voice and your generous heart.

Gordie / Westo / Job - I'm not too worried about S23 and his actions. He's doing what I as his father taught him. Love, respect and protect women, especially his mother. I am sad that his mother has obliged him to be surreptitious and yes Job - now that I think about it, he did have his cell out in his hand through the meeting with the realtor.

One good thing about being an honest man though is that I never need to worry about keeping my story straight nor what people might hear. I did think about having a talk with S23 about the fact that I had nothing to hide from anyone, even his mother but I've mentioned that before and there is no need to do it again. It would just make him uncomfortable. I am angry at his mother though for putting him in the position of doing this.

I love my son and am proud of him. He's a good young man doing his best in a difficult situation. In his shoes I would be doing pretty much the same thing. He is very much my son.

I wrote a bunch of stuff here but purged it in part because there's a good chance that STBX is also reading here. I was very pleased with my lawyer who now has brought her A game to the table. She was blunt to me but listened to what I said and accepted my priorities. On my part I listened carefully to her advice and explored it to be sure that I understood both where the law goes and where her experience guided things. We did go over the numbers with some care and my lawyer reviewed some of the off-sets and calculations that she recommended that made some of the factors more favourable to me than I would have thought of on my own.

I think not all things are flowers and rainbows between STBX and her lawyer. They still didn't have their disclosure complete but the "did" present a counter-offer which after leaving to consult with my lawyer and countering it, I rejected it. My lawyer mentioned that even though her opposing number was "very" tough that she didn't seem to be bringing her full game to the table. STBX was actually largely present in the meeting complete with shark eyes and a lot of attitude that got offended when I pushed back but had little substance behind her arguments. I made a point of trying not to mention OM but there were a number of times when my oblique references where obvious. My lawyer mentioned in the post-mortem meeting that a number of things that I said obviously struck home and were perhaps not helpful - no surprise to anyone there - but nobody stormed out of the meeting. STBX's lawyer was quite aggressive and dominant but I was very prepared for that and tried to engage STBX directly in the discussions. For a laugh - it used to always offend her (and me) when people would talk to me instead of her when we were doing something like car shopping etc.

One of the darts I tossed (I just can't help myself) was the mention that STBX had gone through several lawyers already and she tried to fire back that I had as well. BUT all these lawyers know each other and my former lawyer now works for my current one and everything on my side was reasonable as to why I changed counsel. I think that's about as far as I can safely go to ensure that STBX's lawyer knows that her client isn't perhaps all that she originally presented herself as. I still can't believe that she originally lied and held back documents. Lawyers are right up there with spouses as people you don't lie to. Oh - yeah - right ...

So - even if STBX is reading this I think I am safe to say that the counter-offer that they made in some circles could have been considered reasonable. The request for indefinite support though was something that I really put my foot down on. I made a couple of counter proposals but after a couple of staring contests between myself and the opposite lawyer we agreed (and then she pushed again and we agreed again - a few times) to table the indefinite support as something that we didn't agree on at present and that both sides needed to go away and re-think what would be acceptable.

Given schedules and my planned visit to D25 in 2 weeks the next meeting is in early October. I have a couple of "to-do" items to take care of but not many. Along with that though I will do a bunch of math, some hard thinking and come up with some counter-proposals. One of the toughest parts of this and something that I can't change is the fact that mentioning OM and the fact that they quite prossibly have a "happily ever after" on the way is a taboo subject. I "could" bring that up as a factor but as both lawyers are quite firm on reminding me, it has no legal bearing especially in a long-term marriage. It also is a major trigger point for STBX.

I do so wish that she would just admit to what the reality is but I don't think she ever will, even after she is ensconced in her new "ever after".

Thanks again everyone.

PS - I went out to dinner at the local pub tonight and had a nice chat with my server. We ended up talking about relationships etc and it turns out that her own father ran off and "suddenly" formed a relationship with a rather unpleasant woman who talks a lot about strippers but likes puppies. I smiled as I suggested that if her mother needed someone to talk to that I was free at present.

Andrew,

I am sorry that you are having to go through this. It's never easy and/or pleasant to go through discussions about assets, etc. Hopefully, both of you can agree on the matters at hand in October.

For now, do your "to do" list and then enjoy your visit w/your daughter and her husband. You need a break and a change of scenery.

Hey AP, just visiting and returning that hug, (((AP))).

I am really shocked that your stbx used your Son to spy on you; that's really below the belt putting him in that position. Also how do you know that stbx is reading on this site?

Hi Coly!

Both kids know vaguely about the site and I believe I mentioned it once to STBX. S23 has seen it on my screen several times although he always looks pained when he sees me on here.

I have also been around tech long enough to know that there are no secrets on the internet and unlike others, I'm not hiding very hard.

Finally I have always operated from the position that you should never do nor say anything that you are reluctant to explain to your Maker, your auditor, or your spouse.

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think my w knows I am on here but if she found it, I have nothing to hide. Heck, maybe she'd better understand the LBS p o v.

I don't often journal day to day any more but thought I would today. I'm still processing a lot of anger which bothers me. I know that I have anger inside of me and I accept that emotion but what I as an individual don't accept is letting the anger control me. Journaling lets me get the emotions out and explore them in a safe way.

I came across this story a few days ago and remembered it from seeing it previously. I think it describes well what I'm working through.

Quote:

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. �A fight is going on inside me,� he said to the boy.

�It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil � he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.� He continued, �The other is good � he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you � and inside every other person, too.�

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, �Which wolf will win?�

The old Cherokee simply replied, �The one you feed.�

I'm doing some pre-work to determine what sort of counter / counter offers I can made during the settlement. I've got requests for information in to my HR people at work about how support payments are administered and how pension transfers could work. I will write to my bank tomorrow asking for pre-approval for a new mortgage under different support scenarios and also about possible personal loans. I wish we could post pictures here. I have a favourite of my Great-Great-(possibly one more great) Aunt Jennie. For some reason many pictures were taken of Aunt Jennie and her ducks. In some cases there are geese there too - and yes - I use far too many metaphors

I am finding my ducks, numbering them in preparation for lining them up.

In other news I had four surprising encounters of the feminine sort today.

The first was at my local book-shop where I haven't been for quite some time. A good friend has a story in a new anthology and so of course I need a copy and went in to order it. I used to be a very frequent customer of this shop but digital books / life falling apart etc etc. I went in and was recognized and we had a bit of a chat where I made a joking reference to ex-wife. I did know that the lady who runs the book-shop was divorced but nothing about the circumstances. She opened up to me about her own divorce - 16 years ago - and broke down into tears as she described her husband's infidelity and how it tore her family apart. I wanted to share my story with her but she was obviously hurting a lot so I just listened and commiserated. It's sad how people's lives get so badly damaged by the thoughtless actions of others. She mentioned that she's tried to date a few times but it seems that as a strong woman that she attracts weak men and I think has largely given up on such things. I think it helped her to talk today.

Episode #2 was while I was waiting in the queue to buy my weekly 12 pack of beer. The lady in front of me had a wasp buzzing around her derriere and I tried to discretely shoo it away. When it moved far enough so that it wouldn't look like I was trying to "goose" her - I tapped her on the shoulder and said I that I wasn't being fresh - just removing a wasp - which I then brushed away and it buzzed off. I can't bear taking a life if I can avoid it - even a wasp. It turned out that it was an old acquaintance who had separated from her husband about a year before my own BD. I don't recall the circumstances. She had a vague knowledge of my situation and we chatted a bit and she was interested in an app I use - I think I can reference it here - called Life360 which the kids use to keep an eye on me. She's going to connect to me on Facebook and I'll share the info.

Interaction #3 was at the grocery store where I ran in to one of STBX's (possibly) enabling friends. We had an uncomfortable (for her it seemed) chat and it seems that her life is not working out well for her and despite living 4 blocks away from me and being friends with STBX that she didn't know that S23 was living with me. I shouldn't feel smug that the karma bus maybe made a pit-stop but I do. I'm a bad person ....

Interaction #4 was at the bake-shop where a divorced lady who is the mother of one of S23's friends apparently "just happened" to be there. My usual lunch on Saturday also "seemed" to be sold out so I had a nice bowl of soup which meant sitting with this lady, the owner of the bake shop and another lady who is a mutual friend and the four of us had a lovely visit. The divorced lady had made mention that she was having computer problems (I'm in tech) last week and again this week. I'm not sure if she was happy but seemed to be when I recommended a reputable local company that she could see to deal with her computer issues.

In other news - my winter storm windows are up. A bit early but we've had frost and the furnace has been running. My laundry is out on the line, my more persistently lovey cat has settled down now that she has found a place to sit where her paw is in my hand and yes - life is good.

Soon time to put fresh sheets on the bed, make dinner and then sit later with a nice book.

Thanks for reading those who managed to get through this.

That journaling sounds healthy and think more than one of those ladies would be open to an invitation from you if you somchose. The wolves that are battling? Yes, I know them well. Trying my best to feed the right ones.

Adventure Time!

I've been busy lately contacting my bank and the company that manages my pension and talking to friends about how to approach my separation agreement. I realised during the last meeting that I wasn't as prepared as I probably should have been and was offering things that I didn't know absolutely for sure that I could. That won't be the case in the next meeting.

So - I've gotten information from my bank on the maximum amount that I can borrow based on both my current income and current income decreased by a theoretical maximum support payment. It would mean having a mortgage until I'm 80 but it gives me a maximum cash number that I can use.

I have an open request with the company that administers my pension to see what would be involved and what tax implications there would be about transferring monies out of my pension. Hopefully I'll hear back on that in a few days.

I have dumped out all of my expenses since STBX left the building into a spreadsheet to play around to see what I can actually afford to cover and will need to explicitly split out and identify expenses related to supporting S23.

My ducks have all been named, now I just need to number them and figure out how to arrange them. It's so frustrating at times though because that four letter "F" word keeps coming up both in my own head and when I talk to friends. FAIR. Nope it's not. Nothing about this is but as I told a friend a long time ago - I grew up on a farm and somebody has to shovel the sh!t - and I'm somebody. Part of the frustration is that to keep the meetings moving I know that I have to swallow my words and accept her narrative that she's a lonely lady living in her tiny apartment by herself and just trying to get by. Everyone at the table knows that this is a lie but I've been cautioned that bringing up the nice lifestyle she'll have when she finally goes public about her guy is a deal-killer.

Grumble Grumble Grumble. I absolutely detest lies of any sort - even lies by omission. Her tendency to lie even about small and simple things was one of the irritants I had with her for all those years of marriage. It was so bad and so obvious sometimes that I did often wonder what planet she was seeing through her own eyes. Without getting into specifics imagine the typical toddler caught with ice-cream smeared all over their face who claims that the didn't eat any .... Cute at that age perhaps but not at 50+

I was talking to a dear friend the other day and one thing he heartily agreed with is that I always caution myself whenever I go into any sort of meeting to remind myself that I am not the smartest person in the room. Yes - I have brains and yes I've prepared but I need to always be open to the likelihood that I don't know everything and can be wrong about things that I think I know.

Anyhoodles - on to better stuff.

Some who are playing the home game may recall that I made a choice at the beginning of my journey to try to find something each and every day that give me Joy and that I can be grateful for. Yesterday had a particularly nice gem. I've been exploring the wines from the La Mancha region of Spain. Some very nice and rather inexpensive choices - suggestions would be appreciated. As I was standing in the liquor store going through the available selection a lady an aisle or so away called out "I really like your bow tie" and then she scurried off like an embarrassed pre-teen. I called "thank you" after her and still have a big smile on my face.

Today is a busy day packing and getting ready to head out tomorrow to see D25 and her H. Her H had been deployed to do relief work with his ship in the Florida keys but is back in port now so I'll be able to see him too. I have a supply of "only in Canada" junk food to take down to them. I also will be doing my usual copy of my computer backup files to their computer while I'm there. Good times are expected to be had with a trip to the Norfolk Zoo, Virginia Beach and the Space Museum on the agenda. I might also buy myself a new towel (exciting isn't it).

I'm taking 2 days each way for traveling stopping in Maryland (Hi job!) just north of DC on the way down on Sunday night and then in the middle of Pennsylvania north of Philly on the way back. A side trip to Gettysburg is planned as is one to the Wallops flight centre.

S23 will be staying home and looking after our "girls" and the house. Despite my paying for it three times he never did get his passport and I'm choosing to not push at him about it. He's doing a lot better recently. I do think that he had indeed been set to spy on me which might explain his bad mood a while ago. Since my last meeting with his mother he's been quite cheerful which is nice to see.

It's probably inappropriate but when I leave I'll have a couple of security cameras going in strategic places and will have all of my important papers with me. I have a feeling that his mother will take the opportunity of me being out of the country to go through the house yet again. Hopefully she picks up the last things from the front porch. Her treadmill and a scroll saw that her father gave her (never used) and she claims she doesn't have space for them in her "tiny" (large 2 bedroom) apartment are the only things left. She did smirk when during the last meeting that I mentioned that she probably knows someone with her truck. After all - her guy has a trucking company.

So - shortly off to do the banking and pick up a bit of $US. Groceries which is a bit larger than usual but S23 and I have been eating down the food we have and some staples need to be restocked. Flower shop - even if I won't be here to enjoy them for most of the week I still want my fresh roses. Then a scone from the bake shop for my lunch, laundry, a tidy of the house, cut the grass and do my final packing.

TA!

Hey AP! Don't really have any wine recommendations unfortunately but I loved that your bow ties are still being appreciated by others!

I hope you have a lovely break with D25, you deserve to get away from all this financial/legal stuff for a bit. Have fun!!

(((AP)))

Back home after many adventures. I'll journal in a moment but first a question that "should" have an easy answer but darned if anyone will tell me.

One of the options that I will probably be stuck with is paying spousal support of a yet to be determined amount for a yet to be determined amount of time. How does the mechanics of this work? I'd thought that it would just be another payroll deduction but my HR department says no that unless I'm a "dead-beat" that they won't get involved. The payments would be tax-deductible so I had hoped that it would all be taken care of. My understanding currently is that I would be obliged to write "that woman" a cheque every month reminding myself of what she did to me and then at the end of the tax year get a bigger refund while living on fava beans and rice (can't get the hang of cooking rice). Is that true? I can certainly imagine having fresh pain inflicted emotionally every month writing out that cheque given that she doesn't need it as her "guy" has buckets of money which the courts don't care about. I've searched the internet and can't find anything talking about the mechanics of paying spousal support. It's not even really mentioned on this forum although I know that a number of members either pay or receive it.

No final deal has been set and we're not in court (yet) and I hope to avoid it and paying support but I want to get all of my ducks in order for my next meeting in a few weeks.

Now on to other matters.

Journaling

Vacation! There were some expected and unexpected wobbles but I had a lovely time with D25 and her H. I had a late start and got to my half-way point in Frederick MD late and found out that downtown Frederick has zero parking on a Sunday evening. I had some struggles on the way down because the passenger seat was empty. I really missed my STBX and traveling with her. The emptiness was palpable. I found myself getting upset about what has happened and how my life has been permanently altered against my will.

The next day got me into Norfolk and my hotel. Many hugs were given and received and I managed to not shed any obvious tears.

Lots of adventures in the Norfolk area were had. If anyone is in that area, I strongly recommend the Virginia Air and Space Museum. Great fun for kids of all ages and many buttons to be pushed. Mini-golf was played at Virgina Beach and the kids "allowed" me to win.

I did have some struggles though as I still seem to have a pool of anger about what is going on with my STBX. The Joy of being around my daughter and her H and the laughter and love I felt did help wash some of that away at least for a time. My daughter was good about being kind to me but made sure to let me know that she had a strong boundary about me saying anything bad about her mother which I respected as best I could. She hadn't given any of the specifics to her husband but I did that in a private moment trying to be as neutral as I could. I just wanted to make sure that if they do encounter my daughter's mother and her "guy" that they both have the history. I expect lies to be told but it is what it is.

My drive back was somewhat eventful with some wrong turns, closed roads due to construction etc but no ice storms unlike my visit in March. I stopped in Quakertown PA on the way back and then the next morning explored the many quaint villages and scenic back roads of central Pennsylvania trying to navigate around closed roads while at the same time saving money by avoiding paying toll fares.

While I was gone, the security system was going beep a fair bit but it turned out to be nothing of consequence. What appeared to be odd movements by S23 around the office turned out to be reasonable. I did notice via the "Life360" app we all use that he spent an hour or so with his mother (I presume) on Wednesday. He didn't mention anything when I got home. I use some old cell phones and a lap-top as the "security system". It false-alarms a lot but I do have some older footage of when STBX was removing whatever struck her fancy from the house in the spring. For those who may be looking for something similar I use an app called IPWebCam on the cell phones and then it all gets managed by the Russians on their free offering of the Ivideon service. If the Russians wanted to spend a week watching my laundry dry in my master batch and S23 watching football, I hope they enjoyed it

On the way home as well I made some notes and gave a lot of thought to different settlement options and the supporting documentation / arguments that will be required. I'm going to work on that this weekend. Hopefully after the settlement is agreed upon I can move on to the next stage of healing. I won't just roll over though. I need to ensure that my remaining family and I can build a new future and really don't feel any obligation to STBX. She's made her choices and her choices are not us.

So - I have a roast out in the refrigerator for Sunday supper (it will take a while to thaw). Life continues to be rather good and I am blessed by a wonderful family and friends.

A bientot mes ami

Not sure how it works in O Canada but in the USA the alimony comes out pretax and can go straight to the spouse via payroll and direct deposit. Actual rules vary by state as there are no federal divorce rules. Glad you enjoyed your trip! Because I was the sole breadwinner for 20+ years and stbxw was a s a h m I have to pay her alimony until death or her remarriage. I hope your settlement is better than that.

Hi Andrew,

I hope that you have a lawyer that is willing to be the bad guy for you. Mine always appeared to be a nice helpful person to her side, yet always went in to protect my interests. This led him to even suggest that in certain years she should pay me spousal support.In the end, I ended up paying no support of any kind.I kept my retirements and ex kept hers. I got the house free and clear without having to buy her out.

I don't know the laws in Canada. I would ask your lawyer if there is spousal support could be contingent on your ex getting job training if needed, but otherwise on her making a good faith effort to find gainful employment at a salary rate that she will be able to support herself.Upon her getting a job, the support would be phased out.

Remember your ex fired you. Your lawyer needs to know that he / she needs to fight for you to give away as little as possible. Don't make it easy. Don't offer anything without your ex also having to give up something. This is business, a nasty contract negotiation. You cannot allow emotions to get in the way of your lawyer fighting for you. You don't need to be nasty. You don't need to really be anything at this point. You just need to make sure your lawyer is prepared. This needs to even include any information that you suspect your ex has not disclosed to her lawyer. Your lawyer can choose to use information like this in an appropriate manner to gain advantage for you.

In the US, the days of spousal support for life our going away. This may be true in Canada as well. Look for any group in Canada that may be fighting for this and supporting men who are going through divorce. They can be a wealth of information for you and your lawyer.

Hope things go well for you. You made a good fight for your marriage. Now make a good fight for yourself.

Gordie / Lifes Twists - thanks for the visit and the support.

On one side I have a solid argument for not paying support at all. She's been self-supporting since she left and not only for a while put money back into the family accounts to "help with the mortgage" but also managed to go on a high end tropical vacation with her fella. Not having any information, I can reasonably presume that she paid her own way.

The current case law in Canada continues to favour spousal support but many of the precedents focus on the the individual's ability to be self sufficient so I hope that will work in my factor if this goes before the courts which I'm trying to avoid.

I still don't have high confidence in my lawyer's interest in "fighting for me". I did make it clear to her that I wanted to keep the legal spend down and I'm about 1/2 way through that budget already.

I've been working on my numbers and am assembling some counter/counter proposals with different combinations of numbers to give to my lawyer. Again - she's not been very creative - perhaps due to the limited budget that I've given her so I'm expecting to be doing a lot of the work. Fortunately I have some experience in contract negotiations that may be helpful.

At this point since from what I've read, if the spousal support goes through the Family Responsibility Office it is a nuisance to manage I may indeed pay it directly if that is part of the package that is decided on. Unfortunately and as I will point to STBX - writing that cheque every month will be a continuing reminder of what happened and what she's done to me and our family and will hurt my ability to see her in anything other than a negative light. She stated that her goal was for us "to be friends".

I keep reminding that this isn't fair and that fairness plays no part in any of what has happened and that I shouldn't look for fairness. Fortunately given the blows that the world has given me over the last 1/2 century plus - I'm used to things not being fair and as I told an acquaintance more than once "Somebody has to shovel the sh!t" and knowing my STBX - I know that she will do everything she can do to avoid being that somebody.

Does your employer give you the option to automatically deposit part of your paycheck into a different account? I've had employers offer this. Usually it's so you can put some in savings and some in checking, but you could use it to deposit spousal support directly into XW's account.

If that's not an option, you could set up an auto transfer from your account to her account. If you're the sort who balances your checkbook every month, and I have a feeling you are, there would still be a monthly reminder, but it might be better than writing a check.

Did you knowingly tell your daughter's husband details she has chosen not to share with him, or did it happen by accident?

It reads as if you did it deliberately.

For some (many? most?) people in your daughter's position, that would be a reason to distance themselves from you. After all, why invite someone into your home if they drive a wedge in your marriage?

I mention that, because I know how much your kids mean to you, and I would hate for your anger at your ex-wife to create a rift in your relationship with your kids.

Rose - I would probably do an Interac e-transfer rather than a physical cheque. And I actually balance my books and review my budget weekly. But still it would be a painful reminder of what she did to me. Having an on-going financial connection will certainly not help with my healing and distancing from her.

It does appear that I will have to do the actual payment if spousal support is part of the final agreement.

Grumble.

Hey AP! Glad you had a good visit with your D!

I can see the whole issue of spousal support sticking in your craw! I don't think it's fair seeing as she left, not because of any abuse, but to explore a relationship with someone else. Makes me mad for you!

Hang in there AP, hopefully you are nearer to rebuilding a life that you deserve!

Happy Sunday!

Nothing much to report. To quote a favourite character from a favourite author "I ain't dead" even if I'm not posting here too much.

I've been doing a fair bit of math, research and hard thinking. There's not a lot of good information out there on the mechanics of paying spousal support, dividing up pensions and all that sort of stuff. Requests for information from my lawyer get back (eventually) short and rather vague statements which is frustrating to someone like me.

For those looking for actual information and happen to be in Canada, there are forms available on the Canada Revenue Agency web-site that you fill out to specify your support obligations and to adjust your tax deducted at source as appropriate. Generally most people it seems pay support directly which, if I end up paying it, would be the route I would take. There is a government agency - the Family Responsibility Office in Ontario - that will handle it as an intermediary but I believe that it is only used in high conflict situations / dead-beat dads etc. I would hope that everyone including my STBX knows that if I make a commitment to provide support it will be done. Part of being boring and reliable is being honest and trustworthy

and after nearly 3 decades she should know that about me.

One item that I didn't mention is that when S23 was visiting his mother he came back with some information on job searches and such which were dumped on the counter. Shortly after that he started working washing dishes at the local pub. The job he had when he was 12 and that he hated and swore he would never do again. I suspect his mother's hand in this. Cynical me thinks that she did it to remove my argument that I can't pay her support while I'm supporting him - grumble. I've remained neutral on the subject, not getting all excited about him having a job nor asking him the "why" question. Just a "will you be home for the dinner I'm making" is as far as it has gotten. Part of me is glad that he actually is doing something and perhaps this will encourage him to look further but I'm not keen on the thought that his mother is (again) using him as a tool for her own selfish ends. I may be wrong there but don't think so.

I've been reading a lot lately and posting a bit on a couple of other sites that are not as focused on reconciliation. I honestly don't think that is something that will happen in my case but this is my online "home" for present in talking and visiting with old friends about my situation. While people here mean it kindly, I needed a place where I could talk about my anger and it would be accepted rather than analyzed. Also since there is a chance that my STBX reads here, there are things I felt a need to say that I didn't want her to read.

For those dealing with anger and I'm sure that many here are, I find for me that anger is like a fire. If I hold it inside it burns me and if I let it out it burns those around me. In both cases nothing constructive is done, only destruction. It may not be proper DB "canon" but I'm working on the mind-set that she is not worthy of my anger. In a lot of ways anger acts for me like the hyper-vigilance that many of us experience shortly after bomb-day. It spins around in our heads making us think obsessively about the how / why / what / where. In the classic stages of grief I'm perhaps going out of order having at least in my case done them in bargaining, denial, depression and now anger. Acceptance I hope is just around the bend.

As I am so often about the "story", there's one from a favourite author (yes I have a lot) where the main character is to fight a duel to right wrongs and get vengeance. At the end he fires his pistol into the air declaring that the other person "isn't worth the powder". I'm not quite there yet but every time I find myself playing those revenge "mind-movies" in my head - I say to myself "not worth the powder". It's been helping.

I've committed to my lawyer to have my proposals to her by Monday. A dear friend who has been a great help and went through her own divorce about 10 years ago is going to go through them this weekend and give me her feedback. The next meeting with everyone is scheduled for the week after that. I'll perhaps be posting in advance of that again.

----------------

In other news, it's a lovely sunny day here in my little piece of heaven. Lots of errands to do and a dinner for a charity that I support and used to sit on the board of directors for is this evening. It's only every few years and this will be the first time I've gone alone. I believe that pretty much everyone in that group knows that I'm alone now but if anyone asks, I'll use my standard "she got a better offer and left" answer. I'd thought about getting a date for the dinner but right now I'm not in a place where I can do that.

I did accidentally leave my match.com profile visible overnight a week or so ago and what appears to be a very nice lady sent me a message. I'm trying to muster the courage to write her back with a "not right now but maybe later" answer. I did have a smile at work the other day because a new hire who is significantly younger than I am was openly flirting with me I think. I kept it professional but friendly - dating someone I work with and especially someone so much younger aren't things I am interested in. On the other hand the lady who runs my favourite local bookshop who is a few years older than I am was bemoaning the lack of available men who she would feel compatible with when I was in picking up an anthology that includes a story by a friend of mine. She's a fiercely independent lady with a strong will but I believe a kind heart. It is amazing to me that looking around how many women there are of about my age even in this rural area who are unattached. I've got a bit more healing to do and have decided that I need to get all the way through the divorce before I even consider it though I think. As D25 told me and rightly so - I'm still "rather messed up".

So since Coly usually is interested (waves) - I have no idea what is for dinner this evening. Probably the standard "rubber chicken" thing but had with good friends and in support of a great charity. There's an auction as well and perhaps I'll get a new piece of artwork to replace some of what "left the building". There's a particularly Canadian delicacy that many of you may not have heard of called "butter tarts". It's become a thing at this auction for the ladies (sorry if that sounds sexist) to make a batch and put them up for auction. I've seen a dozen tarts go for well over $150. Tomorrow night is probably meatloaf using some of the last of the hot peppers from the garden and perhaps butter tarts for desert.

Banking, groceries and of course my fresh roses are on the agenda along with a fresh scone from the bake shop and laundry. It's a nice day so I'll use the clothesline saving a bit of money and a bit of the planet.

Thank you to those who have read and I hope you all have or are having a fabulous day where you have found some Joy to treasure.

AP,

Out b d dates are almost identical and now we are both trying to finalize our d at the same time. Question about anger. Agree that venting to stbxw does no good and directing at self also does no good. Stuffing is it good. So what do you do?

Find something physical to take that anger out on. Venting to your former spouses will do nothing but justify why they left. Turning the anger on yourself will create all sorts of health issues. Find something constructive to use that anger on, i.e., exercise, taking up a new hobby, etc.

punching bag in the garage. i'm told it works wonders. looking into one for myself and my son.

hugs xoxoxo {{{{{{{Andrew}}}}}}}

Gordie / Job - I try to let the anger "drain". I'm a pretty "intellectual" sort in that I try to think things through as you have both probably seen so what I do probably doesn't work for many people. I look at the anger, understand why I have it and then try to set it aside. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. I know job that you suggest releasing the anger on something physical and some friends have suggested using a punching bag and that may work for some people but I've found that even intense exercise doesn't work on my anger.

.............

On another note - it was an "interesting" day yesterday. My heavens I'm using a lot of "quotes" today.

I'm suspecting that stable middle-aged men might be a marketable commodity.

The flirting with the one teller at the bank appears to have moved up a notch with her talking more about her boys and living the single life and asking me about mine. We explored a couple of common interests and I did the obligatory showing of pictures of D25 and her husband from my vacation. She also made a point of joking about her grey hair (I saw 2) perhaps to point out that she was closer in age to me than I might have thought. Even though the branch wasn't busy I did jokingly remind her a couple of times that she was doing some excellent customer relations and perhaps should be working instead of chatting. And then we'd chat some more. I may reach out to her on Facebook in what is hopefully a non-creepy stalker guy kind of way so that maybe we can build a friendship outside of her work.

Then at the flower shop the nice lady I talk to there it seems had been talking with one of my sisters-in-law and I think is trying to figure out how old I am. On top of that, her boss (who is also single) went out of her way to say "hi" and chat.

The charity dinner last night was good but also surreal. I did have perhaps a bit too much wine and ended up coming home with 4 new pieces of original art and a freshly made pumpkin pie. It was for a good cause and the cost was moderate. Waay below what I would have paid commercially for everything except the pie. The lady whose butter tarts I'd been coveting didn't make any this year but made a lovely apple pie that I was out-bid on. Three of the four pieces of art have lovely bright colours and a floral theme. Much different than anything else I have and quite different from the art that "left the building" when the house was stripped by STBX and her flying monkeys.

This was the first significant public event that I've been at since bomb-day and it clearly demonstrated that the world keeps turning despite any drama on particular parts of it. I used to sit on the charity's board of directors and STBX had had various roles working in the charity and related organizations and so we were well known as a couple. I found myself in some ways more entertained than upset about the fact that everyone kept asking where (insert name here) was. There had been two tickets set aside for me at the door and lots of people would see me, come up to chat and then look around for the missing (insert name) and ask. That would be followed by a look of horror when I would respond with a variation of "I have no idea where my ex-wife may be". Perhaps it was for the best that I didn't have a date. That would have been even more earth-shattering.

I sat at a table where an old acquaintance of mine who was a long-standing volunteer with the charity was holding court. He had some family there with him and there was a spare chair so I sat with them and had a lovely time. The unfortunate bit was that none of them drank so I ended up with a bottle of wine to myself. As the dinner ended up the one lady who was there at the same table but also without a partner swung her chair around to chat with me. She thanked me for trying to buy the cup-cakes she had brought (I had no idea they were her's) and she got "very" interested in talking about my likes and life. Since she was wearing a pretty obvious wedding ring I "presume" she was married. It also turns out that she lives in the same village as my STBX and has seen her around the town. It seemed more than just friendly but perhaps I'm getting paranoid. We actually ended up being pretty much the last people there and the current chairman made a point of making sure that I got all of my stuff and got out.

So - a significant new number of people now also know that I am "unsupervised". How or if the events at the charity dinner will get back to (insert name here) or what impact that may have I have no idea but it's none of my concern. I did see that after I would mention to someone that I was alone how that person would then bounce around the room talking to others. I suppose I was part of the evening's entertainment.

Also, I continue to have a very vivid imagination but I would imagine that thinking that some very nice people find me attractive and want to spend time with me is a pretty darned healthy thing. I'm still somewhat damaged goods and am not chasing after any fairies of my own I think.

Also it turns out that I forgot to bring home a copy of the program so have no idea what the name of the cupcake lady may be but that's probably for the best too.

Missed your post bttrfly - thanks for the hugs (((bttrfly))) right back at you.

Congrats to your son on his job! If I remember correctly, this is the first time since you joined the board that he has been productively engaged in something, and I know you've worried about his mental health at times. Looking for a job, and then showing up for work are huge positive steps.

Granted, dishwashing is not the most prestigious job, but getting some recent work experience will make him much more attractive to the employers offering more interesting jobs.

Your wife might have had selfish motives, but if so, her interests and your son's best interests are aligned.

And I don't think it will make a difference one way or the other in the alimony discussions, because financially supporting a 23-year-old offspring is not generally accepted as an expectation. This seems like a win for your son and neutral for the divorce.

The charity event sounds like a fun night. Hard to beat original art and pumpkin pie.

Andrew,

Thanks for your post. I found it enlightening that you were able to be open about your situation without any feelings of...I don�t know...embarrassment or anxiety. Stbx and I are quite prominent in our community and it will be a scandal when our d becomes public.

Gordie - There's two things that are quite different in my case. The first is that we've been living apart for well over a year already. The other is that there was and is still a fair amount of anger that I have towards her and that I have no interest in preserving her reputation.

In your case I would expect that for a whole variety of reasons that you would want to present the situation as amicable. I've not read that you've sorted out the living arrangements yet but I would presume you are both staying in the same area.

You'll maybe want to think about what you'll say when people ask the obvious question of "where's W?". I've learned that there are three basic classes of people that you'll encounter. The largest group are those who just don't care. Sadly divorce is commonplace these days. The second group will be the ones who can be satisfied with an an answer of "we've split up". The third group will be the ones who want to dig for the dirt and you may want to just say "it's a private matter".

In my case earlier on I would tell people "it's her story to tell" imagining that she actually would be open about her new guy after she moved out (she's still not). Now I generally just say "she got a better offer".

Thanks for stopping by. You'll get through this. It won't be easy but you'll get through this. You are a strong person.

Excellent advice on what to say if people should ask about your situation.

Andrew,

Yes, thanks. Excellent advice. Yes, when we split we will both be living in our small little town where everyone knows us. And yes, I do want to protect her reputation for the sake of my kids. However, I refuse to be her spokesman and I refuse to lie. I do think saying it�s a private matter is a good way to shut down an unwanted conversation.

Long rambly post warning. Nothing to report.

---------------

Feeling a bit blue today. Perhaps in part because I had a few too many drinks last night. Being "unsupervised" does have it's down sides.

Long weekend here and I'm trying to get the energy up to get out and about. Sitting here at the moment with my cat Liz holding my hand in her paw (she insists). My other "girl" Amy is snoozing in the spare office chair. S23 who is a night owl is still in bed as usual.

This is my second Thanksgiving without a spouse. Waking up this morning I realized that I miss being in love. Not that I'm likely to make any changes in the romantic world any time soon. I did open the door slightly to the nice lady who runs the local bookshop suggesting that if she wanted to chat to feel free to reach out to me and she was very open to that. She's perhaps 5 or 6 years older than me and has been divorced for about 16 years. Each time I pop in to her shop we end up talking, or more accurately she talks and I listen while a queue of polite but slightly uncomfortable people forms behind me. I've written before as well about other ladies in the area but I'm not feeling the need to pursue.

About a week or so ago I bumped into one of STBX's more enabling friends. I was polite and we passed the time of day. It seems that she's having some difficulties of her own. I made sympathetic noises but didn't pry. She seemed very surprised that I'm not seeing anyone and at my comment that there are indeed a number of single ladies of our age in the area which appeared to disturb her. Her own long-term relationship has never been very stable I think. She did say - and this seems to be a common theme - that she hasn't heard from STBX for quite a few months. As was written to me a very long time ago - she's perhaps formed a new group of friends who don't know her history. Or perhaps she's just sitting alone - no clue. Her previously active Facebook profile that others keep an eye on is quiet and has been pretty much since shortly after she left.

I think one of the narratives that STBX had with her friends was that I would quickly move on. I know that on more than one occasion, even before BD she told me to do so originally because "she wasn't good enough for me".

It's been so long since STBX left that I don't really miss "her" hardly at all. If she were to try to come back into my life it would be like meeting a stranger. Today is Thanksgiving here and I do indeed have a lot to be thankful for. S23 and I will be having a small ham for dinner this evening. I don't know if his mother tried to make plans with him or not but I imagine not. She didn't last year. I just make my plans as if she doesn't even exist. I have no clue what she did for this weekend. According to rumours she's moved at least part time in with her guy, not that she's been public about it in any way. No clue why. It's amazing. You think you know someone but then you don't.

Lots to do around the house today. The bathrooms need to be scrubbed and the vacuuming done as well as the inevitable ironing. A short week this week made even shorter because the next "collaborative law" session is on Thursday afternoon. I hope that things will get sorted out at last. As a more than usually organized person the confusion and the sloppy way that this process is going forward is frustrating to me. We're now in the 6th month since I got the first letter from her lawyer. I just did the math and it's 445 days since she left. 579 days since she told me that she was going to leave. According to what I've read, even if things now go smoothly the divorce won't be final until probably in the new year. There is also a chance that it won't go smoothly. If this goes to court given what I understand about that process this could drag out well into next year. I can't imagine the STBX wants to do that though both because she wouldn't want her dirty laundry aired in public and because (I presume) she's wanting to get married to her guy. However I don't know what sort of advice she's been getting and given some of her past actions I don't think it's been very sound advice. It all boils down though to what her motivations are. A subject on which I am completely dark with.

I tried to spend some time yesterday cleaning out the "games and craft" cupboard. So much detritus of half-finished projects or supplies bought and then never used. I tossed a bunch of glue and other things that have probably gone bad and the more obvious scraps of paper. There's a lot of unopened packages of scrap-booking and stamping supplies. Not sure what I'll do with them. S23 came home from work as I was doing it and he looked pretty uncomfortable with me tossing "his mother's" stuff. I was having difficulty myself in making decisions on keep/toss combined with the fact that I still am uncomfortable touching "her stuff". She was always very controlling about me leaving anything of her's alone. This cupboard is the last part of the house that was home to "her stuff" that needs to be tackled. Her treadmill and other exercise equipment that she said she wants is still in the front porch. On Thursday I need to try to get a date from her on when she'll remove it by. There's lots of places she can store it if she doesn't have room.

Thanks for reading any of those who have. I think that I'll now get out of my PJs and go for a bit of a hike and then put the ham in the slow cooker and tackle the housework. The leaves are starting to change colour. I do so love this part of the world. I went for a hike yesterday in a local wooded area and it was lovely. I snapped a number of pictures including one of myself with my new hairstyle (crew cut) as a Facebook profile pic. Quite the change from 2 years ago when my hair was half-way down to my waist. Yesterday I also gathered some wildflowers, cattails and tall grasses and decorated the side porch for autumn. It looks quite nice. I am pleased as well that I think of this as "my" home. I know that for some that living in the marital home is difficult but I think that pretty much all of the ghosts have been exorcised.

Have a wonderful day everyone.

Happy Thanksgiving Andrew!!!

Hiking?? Hummm... Sounds good to me!

... i' m off

A question for Job,

I've noticed you edited exquisite's FB name. Are we allowed to gives clues?

Westo - I think I can answer on this one. This is a link to the official forum policy which was updated after I broke the rules myself. I think I'm the cause of a couple of the "sticky" posts in fact

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2726353#Post2726353

There are good reasons for this policy. Many of the people here are in a place of great hurt and are vulnerable and allowing them to keep their privacy helps keep them safe. In order to be fair the policy is applied evenly to everyone.

With that said, people can and have been creative. I know that a bunch of the "guys" who were posting about 6 months or so ago left clues about another more open forum. I didn't bother going there myself but a number of guys did. Some people have even managed to meet in real life setting up rendezvous and telling each other what they would be wearing.

Some people leave clues buried in different threads. Some people have set up temporary social media profiles that include their screen name with DB added.

The key thing though - at least in my mind - is to be safe. We've all shared a lot of personal information and many are vulnerable. We can't know who is just reading along that might take advantage of being able to find you in real life.

Oh yes I understand....I'm not creative enough to figure it out though!

It's a shame as I'm thousands of miles away from most of you, so no chance of me knocking on the door!

Andrew,

You are absolutely correct, this Forum doesn't allow the exchanging of personal information for the simple reason that they want people to feel safe and comfortable in posting here. We have had a number of incidences whereby the posters gave out their personal info and later discovered that it was a "Troll" who was communicating w/them off line. I remember one incident where the poster was cyber stalked for a long time. There is no way to tell who is "safe" to communicate with in this day and age. Yes, we all come here to seek advice, support and guidance...but you do have a few that pop up every now and then who "want more" from the posters.

A group of the posters formed a FB DB Page. I would be very cautious in what you post here when it comes to your contact information. If I don't discover it, someone else will and will contact the moderators....even the administrators check the postings from time to time. I do not want to be responsible for requesting a poster be put on moderation for disclosing "hints" to their contact info. There have been a few incidences whereby a poster attempted at least 3 times to post "hints" and that poster was finally banned for not adhering to the Board policies.

I'm sorry that you can't post your personal contact information...but I, like everyone else, have to adhere to the policies too. There are a number of posters that I would like to post to off line, especially when they are having a difficult time of it, but I can't.

Dude, what is up with these ridiculous women that they have such a great guy in the area and are not taking advantage. Must be that the right one has not come around yet. Never fear, she will. You are too awesome to be alone long. In the meantime, enjoy the lovely ladies you have at home. I have one of each but the male is my favorite. He gives me hugs and snuggles under the covers.

Hey Andrew,
With regards to alimony, have you considered the option of stopping your payments after your ex gets re-married?

Hope progress is made tomorrow. Instead of "need to try to get a date" for her to pick up her stuff, you could let her know it will be on the porch until ____ whatever date you think is sufficient. After that, the items will be donated to local charity. Personally, I think you should have boxed up all of her items from the crafts and games cupboard. Let her sort through everything and decide what is good or bad. It's not your job to clean up her stuff.

dream

ps: I'm glad to hear your son is working!!! He needs to learn how to take care of himself and be an independent man.

OwnIt - Thanks for the visit. There are indeed a number of very lovely ladies in my area both of the fuzzy variety and the the two legged. I'm getting more comfortable in my skin pretty much each day and have realized that even though I'm perhaps a wrinkly grey-haired man, I still have a lot of living to do regardless of whether I have a companion on that journey or not. It's not a choice I have to make right now though.

Dream! Lovely of you to stop by as always. If we do go down the road of "indefinite support" there will be conditions. I will also suggest that if we don't go with a cash buyout or time limited agreement that I will reserve the right to keep hauling her back to court as circumstances change. But as my lawyer cautioned me, people lie and in some ways I could see her living a double life to keep the money coming. I've been reading case law (yes I'm "that" exciting) and the trend even here but more so in other jurisdictions is to not award indefinite support except where the one spouse is completely unable to be self-supporting. To annoy my lawyer I've looked up a couple of the more recent decisions that are relevant.

Going to court is completely unpredictable though and the decisions are binding. I'm sure that she doesn't want her dirty laundry aired as well. Even beyond the infidelity there are a lot of other things that I can point to where she has not acted appropriately or in good faith and where I've not over-reacted or acted in any arbitrary fashion. For anyone earlier on in this journey than I am, keeping a list is a good idea. I have recorded each time she entered the house, all the financial transactions etc. I also have copies of all emails and text messages. All of this is also stored outside the house - yes I was "that" paranoid at one point and still am to a degree.

As far as the remaining stuff I'm hoping that we can cut a deal that is determined to be "complete" and that includes a clause that she has until X to retrieve anything and that I have to agree on what is removed. Beyond that it would be considered abandoned property and I'll then donate / trash etc as appropriate.

It isn't my job to clean up her stuff yes, but this is my home, not her's any more and so I need to deal with things.

As you know I struggle with the fact that I know so very little about her plans or what is going on. You maybe remember my old "Phantom Cyclist" threads where I was dashing around not knowing where I was going and trying to see where she was. Even though I'm confident that I'm largely in control of this process, I do require her cooperation to get through these last steps. I don't know her plans nor her motivation. She's completely silent. I suspect that the pictures from her Caribbean adventure with her guy last winter were never intended to be made public. From what I've gathered they are still a thing. To me it seems beyond bizarre that she is still keeping it all quiet after all this time. To my knowledge neither of the kids have met her guy as well and probably I know more about him than they do. Is this a cynical, well-thought out plan to shake me down for cash? I really doubt that. It's certainly not well-thought out. A well thought out plan would have been executed more than a year ago.

Hopefully we can do some actual negotiating this time. The first two meetings were a bit of a bust with STBX not being prepared at all and storming out of the first one and her lawyer trying to bully me in the second one. I'm sure that I'll post an update after the meeting.

My son is doing much better lately I think. Having a job has probably helped his self-confidence. I've not talked to him about contributing to the family finances or even covering some of the bills of his that I pay. It's only been a short while. A key thing to me is that I don't want him to be a pawn in this negotiating with his mother.

Thanks again Dream for stopping by. I will always treasure your calm voice early in my journey.

Well - I have a deal.

There's a principle in contract negotiations where if both sides come away unhappy that it's a good deal.

Without going into details there'll be a modest transfer of equity and modest spousal support payments.

It is my understanding that once the agreement is in place that she'll be doing the filing for divorce.

I thanked her for her consideration and arranged with her for her to remove her remaining possessions from the house.

I have no idea what her status is, nor her plans. But they are no longer any of my concern.

I'm sitting weeping with a bottle of a nice Spanish wine that I believe is from the Catalonia region of Spain where the saga of my hero and spiritual guide Don Quixote is based (if you remember my really old threads) and half an apple pie - cuz that's what I have in the fridge that I don't have to cook.

It's hard to believe that this is almost over.

For those following along behind on a similar journey it helped a lot for me to have gotten all my finances and options figured out so that I could honestly present the alternatives rather than just following along the guidelines. The resulting agreement is very simple.

Thank you everyone for who has followed along, who have cheered me and yes, even those who have chastised me.

I'll still be hanging around for a bit. Jack_3_Beans who meant a very lot to me and who I miss greatly once admonished me to "pay it forward" and in his memory and in thanks to all those who have stood along side me, I will continue to do that for the near future.

Another settlement phenomenon is settlement fatigue. People just reach a place where they want to be done and leaving without an agreement after you've envisioned being done is something you can no longer fathom.

I'm glad that the payments are modest and that you will soon be rid of her and her stuff.

In my office now is the Don Quixote Picasso print with a quote:

"Then you will do your duty for it is not necessary to be dubbed a knight to engage in battles such as these."

You are a knight, and a gentleman, and your voice is needed here. We all root for you and the lucky lady who gets to join you on your travels.

Oh Andrew, I'm so sorry you had to travel this road.

Throw back a glass of that wine for me.

And when you finish weeping, dry those tears, and let me share one more quote from the author I quoted this morning-

"rise
said the moon and the new day
came
the show must go on said the sun
life does not stop for anybody
it drags you by the legs
whether you want to move forward or not
that is the gift
life will force you to forget how you long for them
your skin will shed till there is not
a single part of you left they've touched
your eyes finally just your eyes
not the eyes which held them
you will make it to the end
of what is only the beginning
go on
open the door to the rest of it."

OwnIt - The Picasso sketch of Don Quixote is one of my favourites. I've thought of getting it as a tattoo but haven't. I gifted a copy of it to a dear friend who has been a big supporter and who coincidentally I will be having dinner with tomorrow. I don't recall that particular quote but it does resonate. It took me about 4 years to make my way through both volumes of his adventures. I used it as my "vacation reading" so only got through a bit at a time. What I so admired about the character was his determination to do the "right thing" regardless of obstacles or the opinions of others. Duty / Honour / Pride - that's what led me to this place and I will still hold those high as I walk any new paths.

If you are looking at other art, Gustav Dore has done some fabulous work including some ones of Don Quixote which I am very fond of.

Leahsue - thank you for that poem. Poetry is dear to me despite the fact that I do actually own the complete works of William McGonagall (inside poetry lovers joke). I first need to close the door behind me before I open any in front of me. I may just sit and pause and reflect between the two doors. Not being "stuck" but just continuing on working on being ready to open the doors in front while making sure the door behind is closed.

On the subject of poetry, my all time favorites:

One Art by Elizabeth Bishop

To an Athlete Dying Young by A.E. Housman

A Poison Tree by William Blake

After Great Pain by Emily Dickinson

Oh Andrew,

I don't have any poetry, just a (((cwtch))) and empathy. I've cried many times over a bottle of wine

Andrew,
here is a poem I came across and found that spoke to me:

The Boxes In The Hall

� Adrian Baillie

Published: December 2008

In every room of our time together there is a box,
Of memories we shared,
Now is the time to pack away,
With sadness and with care.

The first is a simple smile,
Whenever I thought of you,
Neatly folded into four,
It's the best that I could do.

Next are all the memories,
Of the times when we were two,
Wrapped with love one by one,
Sealed with tears as glue.

And then there are the butterflies,
I had when you were near,
Now in a cage of sadness,
And locked up with a tear.

Next are the times we kissed,
Each one wrapped with a sigh,
Placed next to a rolled up list,
Of all the times I've asked myself why.

Now to pack are the pieces of my heart,
Gathered in a pile,
Each one wrapped up tenderly,
And placed next to a distant smile.

Finally all the shattered wishes,
Placed in softly so no more can break,
Covering them over trying not to cry,
So they would not all ache.

Lastly walking round each room,
Closing each and every curtain,
Shutting each and every door,
Leaving behind each and ever pain.

Gathering up the memories we shared,
Making sure I've got them all,
Packing them softly because I cared,
Leaving them in the boxes in the hall.

Source: https://www.familyfriendpoems.com/poem/goodbye-after-divorce

Andrew,

I am sorry that things have been so "trying" the past few weeks over the settlement. I am glad to read that things have settled just a wee bit and both of you are ready to move forward. It's never easy dismantling a long term relationship, especially when one doesn't have open communication w/the other spouse at this late date. Feel the pain and then release it.

As for your STBXW, she won't actually feel the pain that you are experiencing right now for quite some time. I pity her because she walked away from a kind and caring man who would have done anything for her. The grass isn't as green as you think it is on the other side of the fence...but she will discover that in time.

The future is an open book for you once the divorce is finalized. Take time to smell the roses and enjoy your life. You've learned from the hard knocks and will be able to share w/others who come behind you on the Forum.

Please take care of yourself.

{{{{{{{Andrew}}}}}}}

Several thoughts have crowded my mind and gone just as quickly. What's settled is this:
I'm truly sorry. You did not deserve to be treated this way, especially by your mate. The wrapping up of the business end of things is not easy.

That said, there are some unlooked for benefits to remember at this time:
* you're a lot stronger now than you were pre-BD
* DB skills are easily transferable to other areas of life, with good results
* you now have the opportunity to heal, find true peace within and
* if you so choose, find a lovely partner in the fullness of time

You have much to offer. This last bit won't be easy, but - you can do it. The other side beckons and the inner peace you will eventually find is waiting here for you. I promise you that. It's just on the other side of the grief, sadness, anger, disappointment, etc. that we all feel during the divorce process.

xoxoxo

job / bttrfly

Thank you so much for the visits and the kind words.

Yes - I am in many ways much stronger than I was even before the bomb-drop.

Even though I might have opportunities available for new romantic connections, that's not what I'm wanting at present. I'm not alone though. Even though S23 is living with me, I see him so little that he's sort of a ghost that leaves dirty dishes on the counter

But I'm not alone because I'm the member of several communities. The village that I live in. My work. My friends both near and far. My children and extended family. And of course the DB community.

After the bomb-drop I felt so very alone and isolated. That may have been a product of the relationship I had with my wife or maybe not. I was aching because of the void I felt within me. I can fully understand how many people try to fill that void as quickly as they can be it with aggressive GAL, immediately getting into another relationship etc. That wasn't the path for me.

I can recall posting quite some time ago moaning that I didn't want to be still alone when I turned 70 waiting for her to come back. I'm certainly not waiting for her, but I have no fears of being alone. I've always liked me and still do. I'm just more complete within myself now.

I used to also worry that I was "too old" to start something new with someone else and felt the cold hands of time on me and worried that life would pass me by.

Now that the settlement is agreed to even if not signed I am seeing that the door is opening in front of me to a new life. I can indeed make long term plans. I don't know what those plans might be but have been getting ideas.

Today I'll be bagging up Halloween candy for one of my favourite holidays.

Remembrance Day will follow and I will go to the cenotaph and bow my head and Remember.

Christmas comes after that. I may finally have a "real-tree" that I've always wanted but could never have. When I packed them up last Christmas I divided the ornaments so don't have to worry about bad memories then. I fully expect S23 to be with me on Christmas morning just like he has been for his whole life. I'm going to use Skype and my ChromeCast to have D25 and her H on the TV and share our Christmas with them just like I always have.

New Years eve will probably be spent alone like last year, texting back and forth with good friends, some of whom are also by themselves.

In the new year, I may go to the tropics by myself for a week of relaxing, visiting cafes and museums and a certain amount of sitting with a cold beer and a good book.

In March, back down to Virginia to spend my birthday with my D25 which is a new and good tradition.

And my life will be being lived.

I do have a lot to offer. To myself, my family, my communities and perhaps one day - to someone special.

Thank you all.

Oh Andrew, I did laugh at your first paragraph.

I'm not alone either and my S26 is a ghost too....I only see him at meal times!

Andrew,

I have sat here and watched you grow by leaps and bounds and yes, you are stronger and wiser for the experience. I am so sorry that life tossed you this experience to deal with...but things do happen for a reason and it may not be your "reason", but hers to figure out. We just happened to be along for the ride...but we are the ones that suffer up front, but at the end of the day, we are the ones that have dealt w/what life has thrown our way, we've learned from it and we move forward whether w/the spouse, w/someone knew or solo...but the experience does make us wiser and more compassionate and even in some cases we learn to be more patient.

In your case, you have shown such dignity when dealing w/your wife's issues. You continue to amaze me w/the way that you are living your life and you are setting examples of how to move forward w/compassion and patience.

Yes, Andrew, you are a special man and that special someone will come along and share those holidays and the joys of what life has to offer you when you begin the new chapter in your life. I don't think you have to worry about growing old alone and w/several cats on your lap.

Today is a present, but tomorrow is unknown. It's a mystery it will reveal what life has to offer in due time.

I agree with Job's every word. Remember last year when you were flirting with flower girl? And we all knew you weren't ready for a new R at that time.

You have come such a long way.....you WILL meet someone who deserves you and what you have learned through this.

And they will benefit from that, but most of all...so will you

AndrewP,

You inspire me. I hope I can get where you are. I love your attitude and the way you are living your life.

Hey AP, just dropping by to say hi and to thank you for all your support!

I'm thinking in your new life you should keep ducks and not just the frozen type! X

So - shortly after my last post I got an unexpected email from the very nice lady who runs the book-shop suggesting we go out for dinner.

I accepted and we had a lovely time at a local pub around the corner from her house last night.

Early in the visit I mentioned in passing that I was planning on not making any significant changes in my life for a while. She's somewhat familiar with my story and felt that was a wise choice.

We talked all over the map for several hours about books, how great Tina Turner's legs looked during her last tour, the impact of socio economic policies on health-care outcomes - all the exciting stuff. And the last topic was one she brought up - not me although it is interesting stuff. I trotted out some of what I felt were my more funny stories and she laughed at the right parts.

Eventually I had to say that it was time for me to head home to get ready for work. She was prepared to argue about the bill and I made it pretty obvious that it didn't matter to me if I paid or if we split it. I paid and she says she'll pay the next time. I offered her a lift home, she refused saying that she lived just around the block. No hug - the body language wasn't there on either side I think.

When I got home I couldn't remember whether it was lavender or lilac scented paper that I should use for a thank-you note

so sent a quick email thanking her for a lovely evening. A response came back this morning thanking me in turn and suggesting that we do it again at some indeterminate time in the future.

It was a nice time out with a person who had been a bit closer than just an acquaintance and will probably become a good friend. For the gossips out there, she's been divorced about 15 years after her own husband cheated on her and is probably in the neighbourhood of about 10 years older than me and maybe an inch or two taller.

She had expressed previously how disappointed she had been with her dating experiences so it was nice that she gave me a chance even though it's not going in that direction at present.

----

Not much else is going on. The settlement agreement is still with the lawyers but I've updated my budget planning to accommodate the support payments that I promised even if the signatures might be late. I'm keeping all of my files including the very painful evidence that I have of her infidelities until the divorce is final. I'm thinking of suggesting to S23 that he reach out to his mother to have that last walk-through of the house done.

Halloween is next week and I have my 100 bags of candy ready and done some decorating.

Life is good.

Andrew,

There is absolutely nothing wrong in going out and having a nice time. From your posting, it sounds like both of you enjoyed doing something different and the conversation didn't get dull or come to a halt. I'm glad you and your friend had a nice evening. Nothing says you can't have lady friends. Enjoy the company.

I think you are wise to suggest that your son reach out to his mother and also, it's time for her to do the final walk thru.

I see you are more than ready for Halloween. Hopefully the weather will be nice for those looking for treats.

I think you have and continue to do a great job in handling your situation. Your advice to others has been spot on. Keep up the good work! BTW, give those kitties a treat for me.

Hey ((AP))! Wow, what a great update! Glad you got out for an evening with the lady from the book shop. I bet it was nice to have some company with the opposite sex for an evening. I am, however, disappointed that you did not send a lavender scented thank you note! You can't smell an e-mail you know!

Maybe sometime in the future you can treat her to one of your home cooked meals. Maybe one of those frozen ducks...?

Journal time I suppose.

Halloween was good. I had about 70 kids show up and S23 had some friends over who played board games and watched movies all night. One thing that I've realized for Halloween is that any decoration more than about 5' off the ground doesn't get seen so what I do is haul my 16' sloop out, put some decorations out on it and people seem to be impressed. Any kids who show up dressed as a Pirate get extra candy as does anyone who puts in an extra effort. I picked up an inexpensive LED projector and my neighbours at least were impressed by the haunted house effects I got by projecting some spooky images on to the window from the unused front bedroom.

The lady from the book-shop sent me a nice note wishing me a pleasant evening and we exchanged a couple of emails on the topic of Halloween and rum. I don't see anything romantic happening with her and did mention that I expected to be busy for the next week (true) but that I hoped to see her on November 11th - Remembrance Day at the cenotaph. I do want to maintain this friendship but I need to figure out how to keep expectations low as far as anything further goes.

A bit to my surprise, one of the Moms who used to babysit for us who brought her kids around last night asked if my STBX was in and was rather shocked when I said that she hadn't lived here for a couple of years. This is the second Halloween without her. I did have a couple of tots of rum to keep in the pirate spirit but changed to apple juice.

One of the things that I've noticed with myself is that I have gotten more cautious since I've essentially been alone. Having S23 around helps a bit but I often feel that I'm operating "without a net".

I do have a bit of an issue with my heart - 3 partial blockages and 2 leaky valves diagnosed about 10 years ago - hurray middle age - and experienced some angina pain for the first time in a while recently while doing some heavy yard work and again today while moving 700lbs of wooden boat around the yard. I'm taking it easy for the next while but not having someone as a safety net is a bit scary. If needed I know that S23 and my brothers would certainly step up but that's different than a spouse.

Packing up the Halloween decorations made me a bit thoughtful today. Last Christmas I split the ornaments etc and since STBX is supposed to come by "any day now" to pick up the last of her stuff I split the Halloween decorations and costumes. There are some nice things that have sat in boxes for more than a decade that I put in the box for her. Inside house decorations mostly plus some of the more feminine costume things. I have no idea if she wants it or not but it's part of the purge.

I feel odd. I miss the "her" that I thought she was. I miss having someone around who I can talk to / listen to. I miss having someone who I can do special things for and who would chastise me for doing things like moving 700lbs of boat by myself.

The first spousal support payment is due in 2 weeks and I have it in my budget. I need to adjust some of my priorities but overall things will be fine. I had a brief talk to S23 about budgets especially since he now has an income of sorts. I suggested that he take his income and apply it to his student loans and get those paid off and that I would continue to support him as I have all along. He looked surprised and pleased and mentioned that that had been his plan as well.

S23's mood has been up and down and all over. Generally he seems in a good humour though. I have mentioned in passing about his mother coming by to get stuff and that doesn't seem to be too much of a stress point for him even if he has the responsibility of letting her in and judging on what can be taken.

D25 is doing fairly well. She's a bit lonely because her H is out on a cruise (Navy) so I try to engage with her a bit more than usual.

As far as STBX goes, I have no knowledge. SIL1 who monitors her Facebook for me has nothing to report beyond a lot of postings of recipes. I nagged my lawyer's office at the end of last week about the status of the settlement agreement and it is still not ready for me to sign due to conflicting schedules. I don't believe that there are any substantive issues with it though.

For me right now if I could put a name on it it would be "lost". The traditional DB "GAL" won't give me the direction that I need. I think I described it well to a good friend the other day in that everything is largely on hold until I get the separation agreement signed. The new year may well be a time of changes. I'd like a new job which gives me a better quality of life. Yes, I would like to discover someone to share that life with but know that is something not to rush into. I do plan to contact my travel agent to see what she can do with a somewhat limited budget to put me on a tropical beach in the new year for a week or so.

One of the quirky (to me) things about my personality is that I tend to make big decisions quickly and not regret them but will spend a huge amount of time waffling about trivial things. I'm potentially facing some incredibly huge choices and really don't know not only what those choices are, nor what to choose. Thanks to many kind people (especially you job) I know that when I am lost in the woods to stop and to think rather than to act.

Well - time to get my dinner underway. Broiled steak tonight. I'm not one of those all-weather BBQ types but I do like a nice lean cut of locally grown beef.

A bientot. Thanks for following along my friends.

I've been a tough time of it recently. Not nearly as tough as I have had in the past but tough compared to "normal",

On my fridge I have a thing given to me by a supplier a few years ago where you can mark on it "today I feel". Regularly I've been putting "lonely" on it. It's not a deep aching loneliness like I felt at around this time last year, but it is still there and still real.

Last night I was sitting with the cats and a nice bottle of wine watching Bloomberg news. The host who was on is an acquaintance of mine and is a very smart and capable woman and was talking about important things. How to improve growth in GDP that either the labour market participation rate needed to improve, or productivity gains were required. How we could all be dead in a nuclear fireball next week (no politics please). Etc etc. I just couldn't get into it so I switched over and started watching old Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons (I did say that I was exciting didn't I?) STBX never really got into those much but loved the little vignettes mixed in such as the "Hey Rocky - want to see me pull a rabbit out of my hat". Good thing that I have removed all easy ways to contact her. I had that itch.

I have been wondering about her and her life, and yes, worrying about her. I know that it's for the best if I just stay detached but 3 decades can create an echo. This is probably in part triggered because the separation agreement is still not signed. As far as I am aware it is because of delays on the lawyers' parts with them having other cases etc. I nagged my lawyer's office again on Friday morning - politely - I am Canadian after all - and was advised that I will most likely hear back from her on Monday.

Last night my sleep was filled with dreams that I am sure would fill the pockets of any psychiatrist. One key bit that I remember is that my very dear cat Tweedle Dee who died a bit over a year ago was wandering around the house with the girls and making himself quite at home. My STBX was not in any of the dreams. There was a big feeling of deja-vu though. According to similar stories this is indeed the time when someone like my STBX could pop out of her hole. The holiday season is full upon us and there is a set of irrevocable actions coming up. I personally feel that this path that I have been set upon is one that I need to continue walking forward on.

I have every expectation that signing the separation agreement and then the divorce will be tough emotional blows. Perhaps I'm flinching before that, or just preparing myself. I don't know. I've been waffling about having a celebration when the divorce is final. I don't know. There's a lot that in hindsight was not healthy in my marriage - a message for some of the newbies to perhaps carry away if they have bothered to read this. Jack_Three_Beans I know pushed me gently but firmly to be very honest to myself about things.

A friend of mine is going through a difficult separation and I am providing him with some moral support and what I hope is practical advice. He's been divorced for about 4 years now but they never did the property settlement. I joke with him that he's my guide on everything that could possibly be done wrong. He regularly cheated on his wife, she cheated on him in revenge, he threw all her stuff on the front lawn and then helped someone load it on a truck to take it away. He's hidden money and income. Coming from me this may be a surprising statement but underneath all that, he is actually a generally decent human being. I wouldn't do business with him though. He has a sense of entitlement and a lack of depth in many of his relationships. He's currently talking about leaving the country and starting over again in another part of the world just to escape the possible doom that is looming over him now that his chickens are coming home to roost. I'm cautioning him to take no rash actions. He's mentioned to me a few times that he sometimes stops and thinks "what would Andrew suggest" when he is about to take some rash action.

Well. A busy weekend. The village craft show is on today and I hope to stop by and pick up a Christmas present or two. It's a bit early but I need to get the ones for D25 and her H into the mail well before the end of the month. The first weekend of the month means extra laundry, flipping the mattress and a full clean of the house. The final storm windows for the front porch and basement also need to be installed.

I have a "Mr Potato Head" kit for pumpkins (pirate themed of course) that has left me with a largely intact pie pumpkin. A pie is intended to be made from it and I will freeze some for later in the year.

Life goes on.

A favourite charity "Playing for Change" does a great version of Bob Marley's "Redemption Song" that I need to listen to the lyrics a bit more closely. I may use that song to mark my divorce. I would encourage anyone who is feeling similarly thoughtful to give that version a listen. It's on YouTube.

Originally Posted By: Bob Marley

Old pirates, yes, they rob I
Sold I to the merchant ships
Minutes after they took I
From the bottomless pit
But my hand was made strong
By the hand of the Almighty
We forward in this generation
Triumphantly
Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom?
'Cause all I ever have
Redemption songs
Redemption songs
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds
Have no fear for atomic energy
'Cause none of them can stop the time
How long shall they kill our prophets
While we stand aside and look? Ooh
Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the Book
Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom?
'Cause all I ever have
Redemption songs
Redemption songs
Redemption songs
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds
Wo! Have no fear for atomic energy
'Cause none of them-a can-a stop-a the time
How long shall they kill our prophets
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book
Won't you have to sing
These songs of freedom?
'Cause all I ever had
Redemption songs
All I ever had
Redemption songs
These songs of freedom
Songs of freedom

Andrew,

Sorry you are in a rough patch. Push the L. She is not your friend. I don�t generally advocate being verbally aggressive, but there is a time and place for it. You are paying her to do something for you and she�s not doing it. I told my L after he was dragging his feet: I want to get a deal done NOW while w is still being nice!!! Suddenly, he is in daily contact.

Andrew:

There is so much sadness dripping from your posts. Obviously your business and I have not me the parties involved, but I wonder why you don't give the bookshop lady a chance. Is it because she is 10 years older? I think I would date a man 10 years older as long as he was still living life and not sitting around talking about how old he is.

There seems to be such a sense of waiting for you. What are you waiting for? What is that separation contract going to do for you at this point (remember I know a little about separation contracts). You know the deal, what you have to pay, how it impacts your budget, etc. What unknowns do you have about it?

Is there some part of you waiting for her to come back or hoping that she does? Seems like it wouldn't be any time soon. Why not really try moving on. You live in a small town and you think you have a spy in your midst. How could she ever see you as doing anything but waiting for her.

Get out there Andrew! You seem to want someone in your life (I find the thought of other men vomit-inducing at this point but my counselor says many folks in my situation feel that), go find her.

I hereby order you to choose happiness. To get out into the world. To have adventures and to come back and tell us about them in your own delightful way.

Hi Andrew, I'm sorry this is a rough patch and hope things feel brighter again soon. I think of this journey as having a sort of spiral formation. We loop around and generally forward, but sometimes in the loop we dip back a little, but then forward again. I have certainly found that in my own journey. Maybe it isn't as tidy as a spiral, but you know what I mean! It is fine and normal to have these phases and they will also pass and you will laugh and feel connected again.

It is a funny time when you are edging towards a settlement and finalising things. I remember wondering if it would actually happen. Would there be an eleventh hour change? And then it did happen and I felt both sad and relieved of a burden. Then I moved solidly forward - actually I moved solidly forward well before that but the D finalising gave me some more forward momentum. This man - boyfriend of someone else - was no longer 'my husband.' That was freeing for me.

I agree with Own It and it may be a good time to introduce a regular new activity in the mix. I may like going out more than some, but I find every other night works well for me. In one night and out the next. I get a nice mix of recharge time and stimulation/company. Some of my 'out' things are pretty gently - like yoga and choir. Some more social - dancing and other nights out. What else might you enjoy doing?

I'm glad you've removed the 'easy contact' option. It's never a good option to contact the WAS when you are feeling lonely and wistful. Better putting that energy into planning something nice for yourself.

Hope things take a sunnier turn for you soon :-)

Gordie / OwnIt / Sotto - Thank you all so much for the visit.

It's been a busy day and a tough one. 3 1/2 hours spent fixing a doorbell (looong story) and my housework is behind.

Gordie - I'm confident that my lawyer has everything in train and since it is a small office I don't want to upset the apple-cart at this point. It will be done when it's done. I'm reasonably confident that the deal will go through since it was proposed by my STBX however we all need to be cautious because "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip"

OwnIt - Thanks for the kick in the pants. One of the things that I am working on is knowing that I am good by myself and that if someone joins me on my journey that it will be the choice of both of us but not because I "need" someone. The chemistry with the lady from the bookshop is one of a friend with many common interests but not someone who I would imagine waking up next to. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. As opposed to when I was in my 20s I know now that even though I am lonely that I need to choose if / when / who someone joins me on my journeys. Back then I was very keen to be paired.

Right now I "am" sad. It happens and I am grateful for you all, my friends who listen to this and understand. Sad isn't something to be "fixed". Sad is just something that happens. I had Joy today too. It was a lovely autumnal day. I talked to some very nice people. I picked up a Christmas card for my daughter at the craft show (don't tell her). And given some compromises, my doorbell now works.

Many years ago I had an interesting exchange with my STBX. She said that she asked my mother if I had always been depressed. My mother said that she didn't recall that. I'm sure that many hours could be devoted to analyzing that but I think it boils down to that I have good days and bad days. Most people around me think that I'm upbeat and positive. I for myself recognize that there are both sides and I try to look hard at the "darkness" to see how it can be turned into light or if it can just be accepted. A phrase I use is "you don't know you are living under a cloud until you walk in the sunshine". Pretending the darkness doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.

I had a dear friend who was the best man at my wedding. I used to joking call him "doctor" both because he was studying psychology and because he felt that there were interesting papers to be written about me. Human beings are put together in the dark by amateurs - it's surprising that we work at all.

Sotto! Thank you so much for the visit. I've read some of your older threads and the name you used back then is the same as my Grandmother referred to herself by.

Perhaps I am putting things on hold. Personally I believe it to be wise. I've had many conversations with close friends about this as well.

I view myself right now as being on the cusp of a new life. It is so very very close. Possibly within just a few months. I use a lot of imagery in my life. I view myself as being in an anteroom, closing the door behind me. Perhaps my old "Cabin in the Woods" which is perhaps rather well worn by now. As I step forward I want to be very deliberate about it. There are indeed a lot of things that I could be / should be doing right now that I'm not doing. I have been doing a lot of thinking and planning beyond what I've written here. FIRST though. I need to get the door behind me closed.

Hey AP, just stopping by to give you a (((hug))). Seems like you need one.

I'm glad Halloween was, as always, successful. I wish I lived in your neighbourhood!

With feeling lonely. Me too! I long for someone to go out for a drink with or just snuggle up to on the sofa. I'll tell you a little secret. I was doing some tidying up today and found a shoe box full of old photographs. Lots of D when she was small and a few of her dad. Do you know as I was looking at those photos, I started to miss him. How messed up is that! It's been 10 years since I saw him!

Anyway, life is funny. You have to laugh otherwise the alternative is to cry!

I have always admired your resolve and determination. You should be proud of how far you have come. (((AP)))

I wish we lived closer. I could help you.

Do not be hard on yourself. I beleive those cloudy days are part of life..

They do not define who we are. You are a very smart, strong, caring man. A day like today is nothing more than a " one of those days" .

Dating, going out, GALing, there is no time frame on this. Some days, you will be up for it and some days, you won' t. No big deal.. do not pressure yourself. It would not be productive if you do it without being in the mood. It could actually mess up something that could have potential if entered in the setting.

As for the big D, maybe your morals are like mine and completing the divorce fully will end one chapter and you will be ready to venture on the next one.

When mine was signed, i felt happy it was all over ( not my marriage, the divorce procedure ) and SADNESS. Alot of pain and sadness but as time passed, all of us pulled through at our own pace.

You are a model for many on here. We hope our posting to you on your situation have as much value to you as yours have on us!!

A bientot!!

((Coly23)) - Thanks for the hug. It helps a lot even if it was virtual. I'm not surprised at your reaction to those old photos. I know that when I stumble across reminders that it gives me a combination of WTF and reminisces. I still have lots of halloween candy left. "20 something" is supposed to stop by this afternoon and take it off my hands for the youth group she works at. She and her boyfriend are looking for an apartment and may be moving in around the corner.

Merci pour la viste Exquisite. My own French is minimal so that pretty much exhausted it. Early in my career I spent a lot of time up at a little dot on the map near James Bay called Matagami so my linguistic powers are limited to mining, food, beer and finding the bathroom

I also had some clients in Montreal and currently deal with one of the plants that the company I work for has there.

Your kind words are helpful in themselves. I'll get through this. I wonder at times if I am my own worst enemy knowing that these next steps will be tough is maybe making them tougher. I really don't know what the future will hold for me. Everyone around me seems to think that I'll easily find someone new and settle down again. I was at a favourite hardware store yesterday getting some parts for a Christmas tree stand I'm planning on building and the owner who I've known for a long time mentioned that he felt that I would be the subject of much feminine attention. I have my doubts though.

As you suggest and I agree - that is all largely on hold for present until the divorce goes through. If nothing else, it would be unfair to another person to involve them in that angst. On the other hand the mother of the lady from the flower shop was talking to me yesterday though and making sure that I knew to come to the shop's open house this week.

The forecast here calls for rain so I'm heading off shortly for my weekly walk and then stop for lunch with my friend at her bake-shop. I've realized that she is very likely on friendly terms with my STBX so I've been working on being neutral on the related subjects. Then puttering at house cleaning - one thing at a time. The world won't come to an end if there are a few dust bunnies around but it is a good feeling to look around and be proud of the condition of my home. It is a bit messy in places and is perhaps a bit shabby looking, but it is Home. Self-help "guru" FlyLady would be fine with it. My sink is almost always shiny.

Hey Andrew!

I think people often get a little bit down in general during this time of year. The sun is out less. The temperatures are cooler. Also, the holidays are coming. That always seems to be a time when single people feel lonely. It's OK to feel sad and to be lonely. As long as you don't dwell in it. (((Andrew)))

I'm confident you'll get through this one day at a time. I remember feeling a weight lifted once the divorce was finalized at the court. Nothing had changed, except that it became official. And then I was (legally) free to do whatever I wanted!

-dream

Thanks as always for the visit dream and for your positive message.

I'll get through this funk. I know I will. I'm perhaps giving the process and my worries that things might fall off the rails too much head-space lately. I'm sure you can understand my cynicism.

I appreciate your continued support as I journey along. I hope you and your wee ones and your H are doing well.

I think that since I've made a conscious decision to not pursue anything for now that I can accept being alone for now as a fact. It was a bit tough this evening as "20 something" and her current boyfriend stopped by to visit S23. I'm a bit biased because I don't really like the guy she is with. I find him selfish and oblivious to the needs of others. He crashed here for a month or so after having problems with his mother 5 or 6 years ago and it seems that he hasn't changed. I hate feeling that I am being taken advantage of. "20 something" also mentioned when he was out of the room that he seems to expect her to do everything for him. Ah well - not my monkeys - and she knows that as a pseudo daughter that this is a safe place for her if she ever needs it. I did feel a bit of a pang though for what I lost.

They all seemed comfortable here though while I bustled around making tomorrow's lunch and getting the daily dishes done up.

Quote:

I did feel a bit of a pang though for what I lost.

Just to be clear - my pangs were not for the young lady. They were in seeing a couple together and remembering the life I used to have.

Hey dude...my old Canadian friend...man I sue did not want to find you recent here after logging in following all this time. Buddy, I am truly smiling your direction for what its worth. I missed you you[Virtual glass clinging]. Whatever pain you feel right now, raise up a smile with me right quick.

AndrewP,

You were right about the MLC forum; it has a totally weird vibe. It's like psychedelic with weird textures and sounds. It's like reality is distorted and twisted. I like the colors, but the unusual moving sensations make me nauseous.

Shame on you for having pangs over the 23 year old woman. She's your daughter's age; what are you thinking? I think I may be pregnant with her child. Maybe that was just a reality distortion. I'm not sure. It's totally weird here.

I think I need some Canadian cookies to settle my stomach.

{{{{{Andrew}}}}}
Good morning! You know, while it doesn't feel great right now, you're instinctively following nature's path for this time of year - this is the dark 1/8th of the year - less and less sun as we head towards the solstice, nature and the earth resting after the final harvest. What you're feeling is part and parcel of this stage of things, I think, and healthy although not necessarily easy to go through.

You're winding up a decades-long relationship. You're wise to give yourself time and space. You will definitely feel better once it's finalized, but then may feel a little worse after that too. It's ok.

Service work has helped me immensely, kicking up the GAL exponentially. You may want to consider that.

In the meantime, {{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}} and congrats on enticing Doodler to the MLC forum. Hi Doodler. You should hang here a little more often. Your humor is delightful.

Andrew, I cannot really add much more to what's already been said other than this too shall pass and it will not always be this way, I promise. xoxoxo

Time for an update.

I just got back from my lawyer's office and signing the agreement. It wasn't as tough as I thought it would be. I'm more annoyed than anything - the other side didn't sign first even though they originated the document.

My lawyer looked a bit concerned when she heard that my STBX would have had opportunity to sign already and that she still hasn't arranged to come back for the last of her stuff. I suspect that she will be nudging. From the stories I've read here plus the excellent advice from job over the past I'm not too surprised that this is dragging. Annoyed yes, surprised no, especially considering that my STBX has never been good at dealing with unpleasant things. According to SIL1 who is still watching her Facebook feed there have been some posts about moving on to an uncertain future so I think I'm safe from her showing up on my doorstep.

For now I am operating as if I'm both bound by the agreement and also not. Some of the paperwork that is predicated on the agreement being in place I'm holding off on but will still be making the first spousal payment this week.

Mind you, I was surprised by something the other day. STBX has volunteered for Girl Guides for many years. It was a big part of her identity complete with custom vanity license plates etc. She has always participated in the Remembrance Day ceremonies with the girls as well. She wasn't there on Saturday. Perhaps she's dropped it. No clue when. I didn't go to the local service last year. I recall as well that someone was looking for cookies on Facebook and a number of leader's names were given, but not her's.

At the ceremony I stood with the lady from the book shop and we chatted a bit. It felt awkward. She sent me an email later asking if everything was OK and I responded that I thought that there was "something not right" about her and I. She was OK with that although she did comment that she hadn't really considered our dinner a "date" but just two people who enjoyed each other's company. Weird feelings for me. In my prior experience with being single I was never the one to end a relationship. I didn't have many but I was usually the "dumpee". I suppose this is something that I will have to come to terms with in my new life. I do think that I need to be sure that if I do date someone and that it doesn't feel right that I cut it cleanly and quickly. There aren't any dating prospects on the horizon though. Just like with a lot of other things, I'm putting it on hold until after the divorce is done. There's no rush.

Ah well. S23 is off at his construction job today and I'm working from home because of the lawyer appointment. I need to decide what to make for dinner. I did make a pumpkin pie on Sunday from the Halloween pumpkin I had and it turned out rather nice if I do say so myself. If I dust off my online dating profile at some future date I may put up pictures of my pies

Andrew:

When I am the one who originates the agreement, I never sign first. I find that someone who sends me a signed agreement is trying to be pushy. I would not read anything into it.

I am sure the bookshop lady appreciates you making it clear that there was no love connection. People don't want to be patronized in that way.

Agree with Ownit. I wouldn�t get annoyed about the signatures. Just hope she signs soon for your sake. Agree, no rush in dating and feel like you and the book lady can still be friends, if you want.

On a whim I went back and had a look at my old thread earlier. Exactly 1 year ago I took of my wedding ring. Shortly after that I got a temp check from her which gave me hope which was shortly crushed.

It feels like longer.

Tomorrow I make the first spousal support payment. My budget will be tighter going forward but not in an unsustainable fashion. My travel agent is looking for a way to put me on a beach early in the new year. I need a break. I think I'm in a place now where I can comfortably vacation on my own.

I think that things are going reasonably well with S23. He was cheerful this evening despite the fact that he's not feeling well. Going from no job to 2, both of which are demanding is tough on him. He is currently applying muscle rub. I'm glad that I had the luxury of supporting him and that he's found his feet underneath himself "on his own". I think still that the key issue he had before was performance anxiety and he may have moved beyond that.

STBX is supposed to have arranged with S23 to pick up her last remaining things. I asked him tonight and he hasn't heard anything and it's now been almost a month. He and I had talked about it before and he seemed OK with it but he looked annoyed at me when I suggested that he may need to contact her. I don't know what his relationship is with his mother and neither want to presume on it, nor to push him toward / away.

I may need some advice later from the hive-mind on what to do. My lawyer did say that she could do what she calls a "shotgun letter" if the stuff isn't picked up in a reasonable amount of time. It's not underfoot but having it gone would be helpful for closure. My opinion right now is that I need to go one step at a time in the legal process. Get the separation papers signed, get the real-estate and new mortgage sorted out, the divorce done and then I can really and truly start locking the doors behind me and peeking through the front windows and start singing a new song.

I expect that the separation and mortgage and stuff will be done before Christmas and the divorce filed. It takes between 6 weeks and 3 months here from what I understand for that paperwork to get processed. Prior to my 54th birthday most likely.

Will she contact me prior to Christmas for any reason? I don't think so. Since S23 is living with me it can be an assumption that he'll be spending Christmas morning with me. Traditionally she and I used to go and visit D25 for American Thanksgiving. I doubt that she is going down. That will make it 2 full years since she's seen her daughter and counting. Her life is completely opaque to me. Even from joint friends or the people who are watching her social media feed there is silence. It's as if she has spent the last 18 months hiding in a cave.

Well - I was fired from the job of worrying about her but some days I still think about her welfare. I am only human. With the combination of the holidays and the divorce and perhaps an amount of limbo between her and her guy I do wonder if she will pop out of the tunnel or not. Perhaps I'm popping out of my own which has me fidgity.

Well - I just finished a nice piece of the pumpkin pie that I made on Sunday. If nothing else I am probably eating healthier (very little sugar in the pie) than I did when I was married. Time to turn on the electric blanket so at least part of the bed will be warm when I get into it. Get a good night's sleep and then face tomorrow.

Oh - and doodler if you are following along in the home game, to retrieve the electronic transfer tomorrow, my STBX will need to answer a "skill testing question". I waffled about making it difficult or some form of truth-dart. You'll be disappointed that the answer to the question will be neither of those but it was fun speculating on what I could have done.

Andrew,

One suggestion: do not use your son as a messenger with stbx. If you want her stuff removed and if it�s bugging you, then decide to do something about it: bring it to her, throw it out, or give her a deadline by which she has to do it.

Thanks for the visit Gordie. I wasn't using my son as a messenger. I'd asked them both to take care of the transfer of goods. It hasn't happened and so I reminded him.

I continue non-contact with my STBX and won't be contacting her myself without a clear and present emergency or through my lawyer.

23 yrs old... so many scenarios on this simple request of yours.. he may very well be annoyed because he does not want to be involved. Could be: " not my problem ", just plain " dont want to be responsable for this", " don' t want to answer questions" , " don' t want to be in the middle of this" etc...

Maybe, he is secretely hoping his mother will snap out of it and reunite with the family??

I do not know.. i don' t know how the family dynamic was like prior to her leaving you guys.. he might also be angered and ashamed of her affair.. who knows... buttom line, he was annoyed when you mentioned it therefor, i would not mention it to him again. I think you should find an alternative. Maybe the mutual friend? Drop her stuff there or have one of her friend pick it up if your stbx does not retrieve it by a certain date.

I am just brain storming ideas and suggestions.. you do what feels right for you! No matter what, it will get done!

I know you asked your son if he would help out with getting his mom's stuff out of the house, but I don't think it's his place to have that burden. Even if he agreed to it, it's not his responsibility and it puts him in the middle of his parents. If you want her stuff gone, go through your lawyer to have a deadline in place and then donate it if she doesn't get it by that date. Personally, I think it should have been part of the agreement. You've been storing her stuff for a VERY long time now.

Am I the only one that thinks it's weird that you're making a spousal support payment without the documents signed by both parties?

Hope you're staying busy and not thinking about her too much.

exquisite / dream - so nice of you both to stop by.

Firstly about the spousal support payments, I was instructed by my lawyer to make the payment as agreed and since I also gave my word I went ahead. I have no interest in playing games and can't envision a scenario where she will try to tear up the deal that she offered. I have been wrong an awful lot though. The transfer was done early this morning but I haven't gotten the alert that it's been picked up yet but she's maybe been busy or hasn't seen the email. I believe that the fact that the agreement hasn't been signed off is more due to my lawyer taking 2 weeks vacation than anything else.

If it all blows up, it all blows up and I continue on.

The stuff is stuff. I want it gone but am willing to not rock the boat too much while the deal is getting done. I do think that she will eventually come and get it. She just needs to have the right motivations and whether that's S23 nudging or a firmly written letter by my lawyer I'm not fussing about it. I think that perhaps it sounds like a bigger deal to me in what I've written than it really is.

WRT S23 and his mother, he came home from a very long day at his construction job and said that he wasn't going to have dinner with me (pork chops tonight) because he was meeting his mother. He seemed quite chipper about it. I made no comments other than essentially a neutral "oh" and to check to see if he wanted me to do him up a plate for later (he said no). He texted her when he got home and now, well over an hour later he's heading out. I just saw him go and his mother had parked across the street and down half a block, making him walk over in some heavy rain rather than coming in the drive. Because I'm "me" though, the counter and sink got an extra good wipe when I did up the supper dishes. I didn't honestly expect her to come into the house while I'm here though.

I think he has a good relationship with her over-all which is a very good thing. I have a lot less jealousy about it than I did in the past. And no - I didn't mention anything about her stuff, or try to pass any messages along. There's no need for me to nag.

exquisite - you mentioned about the family dynamic. We were always I felt a rather close family. STBX and I were affectionate and demonstrably so for the entire time we were married up until she found her guy. Even then she only gradually became distant until the day I found out about him when she turned into an alien. A quiet one who was often depressed and sad looking and perhaps confused but an alien nonetheless. Since the kids were long gone from the house this didn't impact them at all directly. The kids I think had a good role model of a marriage in us. As parents we were a unified team and showed how two people could compliment each other and support each other in their various separate interests and how we would sacrifice our own wants at times for the greater good of the family. Writing that makes me wonder WTF happened - I have some theories that don't matter and I think I have pretty much come to terms with the fact that I will never understand.

However I think that both of the kids are firmly neutral about whether they want us to get back together or not. They both know that I was hurt very badly and that I am healing. I've talked to D25 who I am closer with more than S23 who has always been closer to his mother so she perhaps knows more than he does of how very unlikely it is that we'll ever get back together. This is something I've been seeing in a lot of what I've been reading lately here and elsewhere. Kids, especially if they haven't been around for any monstering or weird behaviours tend to stay neutral I think.

And no dream - I don't give her much thought in general. Just like for them I think though, this time of year I think makes us LBS nostalgic and the fact that things are going to be wrapped up soon makes me thoughtful and a bit sad.

Well - time to wrap up. Thanks again for stopping by.

Andrew:

I think you did the right thing in making the payment.

I'm impressed by how little your kids have been involved in the dynamic with you and your wife and that you suppress your curiosity and don't even ask if they have talked to her, that says a lot.

Thrilled for you that you will be taking a beach vacation at some point. I'm planning to take the kids to Ireland next summer but have to plan it around a 3 week learn to sail camp, the summer rowing season, and D's summer program of unknown origin at this point.

Seeing how far you've come gives me so much hope for myself. Despite a few tears here and there I feel so much stronger in this past year and I think a year from now I will be Fort Knox. Thank you for being such a great support for everyone here.

I definitely agree that you should follow whatever your lawyer advised. I just don't want you to be taken advantage of or anything along those lines. Too often the nice guys get the short stick.

Even though it doesn't really matter why things turned the way they did, it is helpful to think about the possibilities. I have some theories as to why my first marriage failed. I think keeping those in the back of my mind helps me to work on my current marriage to avoid a repeat of history.

-dream

AndrewP,

You sound like you are in a good place. Curious to know if your why is the same or different from what she told you?

Originally Posted By: Gordie

Curious to know if your why is the same or different from what she told you?

This is going to be a bit longer than your question but I think the question deserves an answer.

Well - first off, she never really told me why she felt a need to stray. When I pressed her before I found out that she had been seeing OM for the better part of a year already her reasons were:
- sometimes when I complimented her I didn't sound sincere
- sometimes when I had too much to drink she felt like I would talk down to her
- she didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home (we hardly ever argued)

In talking to her friends later to a person they all made a point of saying that she never had anything negative to say about me.

Now - with that said, I wasn't and am still not perfect. I was fat - still rather chunky. I drank too much beer - still like it but less. I can be a bit of a pompous @ss. I have had odd(ish) hobbies like building small boats which I can get wrapped up in.

As far as my own opinions of the "why" - what it boils down to in large part is her own selfishness. She was and probably still is a very selfish and self-centred person. She liked nice things and felt constrained that even with our 6 figure income that she couldn't have the nice things she wanted. As a bit of back-story we had a lot of personal unsecured debt caused by bad decisions by both of us and had only in recent years gotten to a point where we had disposable income but it was also a point where we needed to focus on preparing for retirement. I remember waffling about buying a new high-end briefcase and her pushing me saying "well just buy it".

Theoretically the label of "cluster-B" or narcissist could be applied to her. She hated being alone and constantly looked for affirmation for even the most trivial of tasks.

Add on to that the horrible chemical mix that I've been told is menopause, an empty nest from kids moving out, me being away at work for 14 hours / day, her parents having a near death experience and the trauma of providing personal care for them and then moving them into a nursing home. Mix that with her changing from selling apples and baked goods to managing a liquor store and her forming a whole new group of enabling friends then you have some combustibles.

The spark was OM. A recent widower who she had known for years that she started going out for innocent drinks etc with. He was well off, semi-retired from running a dairy distribution business (yes - the milk-man) and had come in to a large insurance settlement when his wife passed (my STBX would brag about that to her friends who were horrified). She is charming and rather cute. He was lonely and hurt. Kaboom.

According to rumours I heard both before and more so after bomb-day she had cheated before. She certainly had shown poor judgement and I believe that there had been at least close calls in the past. Genetically her father and siblings were all classic narcisist types and had all had multiple affairs (and stayed married). How much genetics played into this I don't know. She used to be disgusted by infidelity.

So - She was predisposed to cheat. She had a man who she liked who was very likely actively pursuing her. She had family and friends enabling her, some quite aggressively (especially her sister who hated me and told her glorious stories of her own adventures in infidelity). She had an opportunity to live the material life that she realistically would never have with me. She took it. In hind-sight I feel that it was perhaps inevitable. If not with this guy, then with some other one presuming in our rural area she could have found and charmed another well off man.

For those reading this - please don't pick it apart and tell me to examine myself more closely and find more faults. I've been down that road. I have no interest in changing myself into a man who my STBX would be attracted to. Perhaps I am that sort of man and always have been. Perhaps not but I am pretty comfortable in my own skin and to me that's what matters. I feel that she left by her own choice and for her own reasons running "to" something and not "away".

Gordie - I don't know if this helped or not - but as a fellow voyager on these seas - since you asked - I have answered honestly. I don't know if any of this story resonates with you or not but I think from what I've read that at least some parts of it may.

Hey AP, just dropping in to see how you are doing. You seem to be sailing on course with a little breeze in your sail. I love the idea of building little boats! I love the idea of building anything really! (((AP)))

Andrew:

My S is obsessed with boat-building and wants to build a boat for himself. I'm trying to get him to find a course and sign up for it. Any ideas on the best way to start?

By the way, sounds plausible and familiar. I think you just wrote my story in some regards.

OwnIt - Thank you for letting me thread-jack my thread

There are two main classes of boat builders. There's the "boat people" (Bring Out Another Thousand) and the people who just like messing around with carpentry and sailing. I fall into the latter category.

Relatively simple and fun sailboats can be built for cheap using plywood and construction adhesive and a tarp from the hardware store for a sail. There's a truism I feel that the smaller and cheaper that a boat is, the more likely it is that it will be used. What I like as well is that once you are actually out on the water people with the "fancy boats" who actually are using them tend to be fascinated and impressed with my little home-made contraptions.

For a start you may want to pick him up one of the several home-built boat books out there. I strongly recommend one written by an aquaintance of mine Gavin Atkin called "Ultrasimple Boat Building - 18 plywood boats anyone can build". Gavin has a design called a "mouse" that I have built a paddling variation of that I use on my local river. If you look online there's an even simpler version called a "Flats Rat". More easily found than Gavin's book are ones by "Dynamite Payson" in his "Instant Boats" series. Those boats are a bit more complex to build but the book is easier to find.

My "main" boat is one that I built a few years ago - a Stevenson Projects Weekender - a 16' gaff rigged sloop that hasn't seen the wet for a few years now - see my earlier comment about size and cheap. It was a very fun build but needs a car to tow, a fair amount of water and took me a few years to complete.

All these little, light boats should only be used on relatively calm inland waters. I'm not sure where you are but hopefully that is available to you. Another advantage of a cheap boat is that if you crack it up, you can patch it and move on with little angst.

Hope that helps and thanks for taking an interest. If I can help more, don't hesitate to ask.

AP: This is going to be a bit longer than your question but I think the question deserves an answer.

G: wow, I deserve nothing so appreciate you responding.

AP: Well - first off, she never really told me why she felt a need to stray. When I pressed her before I found out that she had been seeing OM for the better part of a year already her reasons were:
- sometimes when I complimented her I didn't sound sincere
- sometimes when I had too much to drink she felt like I would talk down to her
- she didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home (we hardly ever argued)

G: geez; that�s a really unsatisfactory answer.

AP: In talking to her friends later to a person they all made a point of saying that she never had anything negative to say about me.

G: I have heard the same, even from stbx.

AP: Now - with that said, I wasn't and am still not perfect. I was fat - still rather chunky. I drank too much beer - still like it but less. I can be a bit of a pompous @ss. I have had odd(ish) hobbies like building small boats which I can get wrapped up in.

G: hmmm...but were you always like this and she got fed up with it or did you become more so over time? I am far from perfect. I have always been slim and attractive and this actually became an issue for stbx because she felt she was fat and unattractive. Yes, I can be an @$$ but not my day to day persona. At my worst, I am quiet, reserved, aloof, elitist and/or condescending. I have no odd hobbies and my regret is that I gave up my hobbies in M and family life�getting those back now.

AP: As far as my own opinions of the "why" - what it boils down to in large part is her own selfishness. She was and probably still is a very selfish and self-centred person.

G: but was she always that way or did she become that way? My stbx was always selfless and at b d she said I can�t be selfless anymore...I lost myself. It�s time to be selfish and put my own interests first!

AP: She liked nice things and felt constrained that even with our 6 figure income that she couldn't have the nice things she wanted. As a bit of back-story we had a lot of personal unsecured debt caused by bad decisions by both of us and had only in recent years gotten to a point where we had disposable income but it was also a point where we needed to focus on preparing for retirement. I remember waffling about buying a new high-end briefcase and her pushing me saying "well just buy it".

G: here I think I was in denial. In my mind, she was not materialistic. In reality, she was and I spoiled her. But no matter how much money she spent, it was never enough. Her OMs are my opposite meaning they are not professionally successful and have no money. She says after D I will still control her because she will be dependent upon alimony. I suggested she not take alimony if she wants to be independent of me which she thought was absurd.

AP: Theoretically the label of "cluster-B" or narcissist could be applied to her. She hated being alone and constantly looked for affirmation for even the most trivial of tasks.

G: so when I read 5LL one of her most important was words of affirmation and I realized I didn�t give that to her. This was the big opening for OMs.

AP: Add on to that the horrible chemical mix that I've been told is menopause, an empty nest from kids moving out, me being away at work for 14 hours / day, her parents having a near death experience and the trauma of providing personal care for them and then moving them into a nursing home.

G: do you think if you worked less it would have made a difference?

AP: Mix that with her changing from selling apples and baked goods to managing a liquor store and her forming a whole new group of enabling friends then you have some combustibles.

G: yes, all the new friends definitely did not help my situation. She created a whole social network apart from me with a lot of divorcees.

AP: The spark was OM. A recent widower who she had known for years that she started going out for innocent drinks etc with. He was well off, semi-retired from running a dairy distribution business (yes - the milk-man) and had come in to a large insurance settlement when his wife passed (my STBX would brag about that to her friends who were horrified). She is charming and rather cute. He was lonely and hurt. Kaboom.

G: yes

AP: According to rumours I heard both before and more so after bomb-day she had cheated before. She certainly had shown poor judgement and I believe that there had been at least close calls in the past. Genetically her father and siblings were all classic narcisist types and had all had multiple affairs (and stayed married). How much genetics played into this I don't know. She used to be disgusted by infidelity.

G: FIL is a narcissist but stbx always hated that about him...he also had a loose interpretation of fidelity and yes, stbx was repulsed by that.

AP: So - She was predisposed to cheat. She had a man who she liked who was very likely actively pursuing her. She had family and friends enabling her, some quite aggressively (especially her sister who hated me and told her glorious stories of her own adventures in infidelity).

G: yes

AL: She had an opportunity to live the material life that she realistically would never have with me. She took it.

G: in my case, she�s giving up her material life

AP: In hind-sight I feel that it was perhaps inevitable. If not with this guy, then with some other one presuming in our rural area she could have found and charmed another well off man.

G: I have been asking myself that question. Was this inevitable?

AP: For those reading this - please don't pick it apart and tell me to examine myself more closely and find more faults. I've been down that road. I have no interest in changing myself into a man who my STBX would be attracted to. Perhaps I am that sort of man and always have been. Perhaps not but I am pretty comfortable in my own skin and to me that's what matters. I feel that she left by her own choice and for her own reasons running "to" something and not "away".

G: I think that is an awesome perspective.

AP: Gordie - I don't know if this helped or not - but as a fellow voyager on these seas - since you asked - I have answered honestly. I don't know if any of this story resonates with you or not but I think from what I've read that at least some parts of it may.

G: wow, very helpful! You have no idea how much.

Gordie - Thank you for your kind comments.

To summarize the answers to your questions - no - I don't think that there was anything that I could have done that would have changed the outcome. Realizing that whether I am right or wrong has been an important part of my own healing.

It is scary sometimes how so many of our stories are so very similar. Human nature isn't perhaps as variable as we might think.

I wrote on Coly's thread earlier and I think to you as well an opinion that when two people fall in love that we put on "mirrors" and try to become the person we think that the other person wants us to be. When things work well, those mirrors are more transparent and don't so much reflect as reveal. We can also in time absorb those traits that make us compatible. In some cases though, those mirrors are only masks and that is why we as the LBS are so shocked when the masks fall and we find that there was a completely different person behind that mask all along.

There are no easy answers. There are no time machines that allow us to go back and change the past. There is only the journey and a misty vision of a Far Shore.

Good luck.

Andrew,

Your posting is spot on and I couldn't have said it any better.

Andrew:

Great insights here. Thank you for the boat building advice. We are going to look into the books and I will work to try to keep S's expectations in check.

Originally Posted By: AndrewP

In some cases though, those mirrors are only masks and that is why we as the LBS are so shocked when the masks fall and we find that there was a completely different person behind that mask all along.

I've been thinking this lately about XH. Who was he? I thought I knew him. I used to be able to guess what he was thinking, and freaked him out sometimes just for fun. I thought he was very predictable too - in a nice way.

However, now I'm not so sure. Maybe MLC has replaced him with an alien, but maybe he is just uncovering his real self. A lot of the literature on this says that after MLC it's common for the MLCer to retain some of the new habits/persona they pick up. I'm wondering whether it's more likely that they are uncovering things that were always there but hidden.

New thread time I think. This one is just about full and I think that we are entering the third act. Hopefully not one like most Shakespearean dramas where everyone dies. Perhaps it may become "guy meets girl". Guy makes a pie is more likely. Good thing that I like pie.

Songs and Stories From The Far Shore - Verse 3
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