Previous thread Cabin in the Woods
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2723724&page=1Revenna is a town in Italy close to the famous Rubicon river. I've decided to move out of the Cabin for my health and have settled down here for a nice glass of vino and to try the pasta.
Will I get up and cross the Rubicon? I don't know.
Pull up a chair and wave to the waiter for another glass. I'm not sure how long this will take but I will be glad of your company.
Hey AP, great choice of location! Italy just happens to be my most favourite country in the world especially Sorrento!
So as you may or may not know 'crossing the Rubicon' means to pass the point of no return as with Julius Ceasar and his army. Does this mean that you about to or are mulling over whether to make a significant change in your sich?
So as you may or may not know 'crossing the Rubicon' means to pass the point of no return as with Julius Ceasar and his army. Does this mean that you about to or are mulling over whether to make a significant change in your sich?
Exactly. Back in the Cabin I rambled on for a bit about initiating the separation. That's really about all I have the power to do. Yes, I do want W to come back out of affection and Love and I also feel a Duty towards her and our marriage that persists which is keeping me here in the cafe.
I can take a few more baby steps in terms of banking and finance, even in terms of making the separation "public" knowledge and still not cross over. Waiting for W to make her choices clear and to cross over herself either towards me or away has been very frustrating as I am sure you can relate to. I think she's in that Gondola over there in the middle of the river spinning in circles with neither oars or rudder .... <smile>.
I'll wave the waiter over. What would you like .... I may be here until the spring. I really don't know. I've thrown my watch away so that I don't keep staring at it and am trying to listen to my heart and head instead.
Andrew said at the end of the last thread, "None of my friends IRL have the patience for this sort of thing from me..." This is a very astute observation on your part. I'm much with your friends but keep it to myself most of the time. What I'd like to suggest you consider is, why are you waiting for your ww/waw to decide how you will live the rest of your life? Why is it up to her to de idea what you will do next?
DonH - Thanks for the visit. In my case I'm not necessarily dealing with a WW/WAW. This is the Mid Life Crisis forum. As I believe I wrote earlier, part of what keeps me Standing is Duty. My W has not explicitly released me from it. Whether that is a coldly calculated move on her part or just my imagination I cannot say.
Okay, MLC then, insert whatever monicker you'd like, the question remains the same for all types in all situations and sexes - why wait for YOUR SPOUCE to make decisions on how you live your life? You keep saying you are waiting for her to decide... Basically what you will do with your life. Should that not be YOUR decision not HERS? What if she NEVER decides? What then? even little things like picking up items, you think more about her than what's best for you. It's your life Andrew. You get to make these decisions regardless. The only thing worse than living in limbo for five years will be living in limbo for five years and one day. I'm not saying you should complete D unless you decide to. I'm saying you should stop letting her make the decisions for your life.
AP,
I'm sure if I were in your shoes I'd do things just as you are-- slowly and one bit at a time. By now, like you, wedding photo would be gone. that obviously is one difference in our situations- H separated accounts, forwarded mail, took every last thing that was his. (of course, left wedding photos unhung, didn't take those)
I haven't had the physical option of the slow-purge, it's all in my head but I believe the process is the same. Separation agreement is a maybe, but like you, is it worth the money for probably nothing? Anyway, I've pulled up a chair and quite like staring at the river. I think I'll start with a glass of Chianti. (hi Coly)
Andrew .. just going to address some things in your post that jumped at me:
The way that I make decisions is to gather facts and then let them stew until they form themselves into an answer.
I do the same, its proven to be a very successful way of making important decisions not only in my personal life but also in business, I have never don't the 'knee-jerk' reaction which so many people do seem to do and regret later .. easier to get your thoughts/logic to over power emotions ... but with the MLCrs this does prove challenging at times and will wear on ones patience far more than you would have anticipated.
The fact that my W hung around the house for months and then moved out on her own all the while (presumably) carrying on her affair but never trying to bring anything at home to a conclusion was and is a source of confusion to me. Odd as it may sound, even though I hoped that she would come back home and reconcile I never really expected her to. Sometimes hope would surge and I would have a temporary expectation but that hope would get quickly crushed.
This is textbook cake-eating on her part, mine did similar however I had no idea there was a crisis, trouble on the horizon nor even an A/OM until after she had her ducks in a row and had moved out, was months later that she informed me there was 'someone else' then all the flags and signs from the past made it all much clearer what had happened. What we fail to realize is they do have a plan but the fog is so thick often times it takes them a bit to actually pull the trigger on things like the divorce ... they are dealing with all sorts of things so this does get put on the back burner for several reasons ... .personally in my sitch I have been looking down the barrel of D for 3 years ... yes 3 years ... truth is I have taken a stance that its her D and she can go through with it if she would like it does not change what I am doing nor my lifestyle at the moment regardless. I am living my life.
I wrote recently on ForGump's thread about problem solving and how one of the struggles that I have is having multiple end-points for my journey. I have no clue where my path will take me which is why I am taking slow, deliberate steps along it making sure that my options are covered and that I am true to myself. My most recent rambling posting is related to the fact that very soon I will have reached my personal Rubicon - the point of no return. If I start dating that greatly reduces the chance that W will be accepted back. If I file for separation I'll be out several thousands of dollars for a benefit to myself that I am unclear of along with the worry that W would not cooperate in the process.
So I am in perhaps in the process of moving out of the Cabin to sit in a nice cafe in Ravenna to drink some wine and think some more. Do I cross that river or do I order the pasta? I really don't know and until I do know, here I sit.
This is an interesting perspective. And what I was aiming at you looking inward towards is the fact you have suddenly felt you are in 'Limbo' where the direction and 'multiple endpoints' as you put it are more up to your W coming out of crisis than they are within your control, or the fact you could choose this or that which is in your control but not a choice you wanted to make.
Often times just sitting in the Cafe looking at your own reflection in the mirror behind the bar is a good way to spend some time.
Don H, if I may--
I don't think AP is letting his W decide (nor am I). Over and over on these threads you end up seeing the LBS actually making the decision whether to take someone back (or not), or deciding to end it. i know my H may never have the b*lls to actually end this thing and force my hand. OK, but it will be my decision and I will do it should it come to that.
Taking H back at this point after disappearing might not be something I can do, I don't know. For now, I choose to -not wait- but just am choosing a non-action. I don't want to throw out ultimatums or file without really thinking this through. Sitting by a river is not the same as H deciding what happens next, to me. I hope I have not assumed too much AP.
Sitting by a river is not the same as H deciding what happens next, to me. I hope I have not assumed too much AP.
I say it again "Soul Sister"
Hi Andrew
Glad we are in Italy, its on my list of places to visit. I'm a blanc girl myself, a chilled Sav on a warm sunny day - but seeing as this is new voyage of discovery we are on, perhaps I should give red another go - what do you recommend?
I don't have any advice for you, you know my sitch well and how I am stumbling around trying to work out which way is forwards myself, so I am in no position to tell you what you are or are not doing correctly - come to think of it, no one is. What I can do and as so many others are trying to, is give you things to think about that you may not have thought of, or a different perspective on your thinking, to give you a different way of seeing things, that way you can make informed decisions.
From my outside view, it feels to me like you are asking yourself the right questions and are not jumping in to making any rash decisions which is a good thing; we can to often act first and think second which invariably comes back to bite you in the a$$. It does concern me that you say you feel its your DUTY to stand for your m and wait to see if your w comes out the other side of this wanting to come back to you. That word - DUTY - it almost feels like an obligation, not a desire -
As you have mentioned "time" is a word that is batted around here; there is no way of knowing how long it will take for your w to go through this period in her life, if she will finish it and how she will feel once out the other side. It does appear to take a long time, I hesitate slightly writing this, but if you expect years rather than months, then you are preparing yourself for what is more likely and then adjust your expectations/thoughts to suit that theory. In my case I am coming up 3yrs since the ilybnilwy speech, but my h was showing signs 6 yrs ago, came out of it for a couple yrs simmering before finally leaving and off to find someone new. Its been a rollercoaster of confusion since then as you know, resulting in a recent touch and go with him now back in the thick fog and me left to pick up the pieces of my life once again - because I did not prepare for this, I tried to be the person he wanted me to be, tried to entice him into being interested in me again, I lived my life waiting for him to come out of this. I now understand (IMPO) that standing is not waiting, its hoping that one day your s will catch up with you and you will remain open to the possibility that you could reconcile should the situation be right for both of you.
Its not easy, thinking about moving forwards without them in the picture, it some how feels disloyal. The thing I try to remind myself is; that is what they are trying to do - move on and chase their dreams - and we can either stand still and watch our own life pass by while waiting for them or live it as best we can and chase a few of our own independent dreams.......like visiting Italy .....
Take your time with your decisions, only make them when they feel right for you, don't make them because you feel should or anyone else feels you should.
There is no rush, just sit and look at the view for a while and breath in the fresh air. xx
I made fettuccine with pesto for dinner ... served it with a lovely focaccia ... you are all welcome to have some.
there are always two aspects to look at in these situations in which we find ourselves: one is the emotional, the other is the business.
In essence, a marriage breaking up is akin to a corporation breaking up. If one removes the emotional and looks at it from a strictly business perspective, preserving as many assets as possible while still being fair to the other party is, of course, optimal.
In your situation, Andrew, I would keep your powder dry on the filing for that reason primarily. That is just my personal opinion.
From the second aspect, the emotional one, whew - well that's a different kettle of fish entirely. I can only share with you what helped me the most. Our mediator said two things which have proven to be extremely astute. The first was to ask myself what do I want. Now, that's a really hard question to answer - at least it was for me. I thought I knew and had an immediate answer, but the more I ruminated the more I realized there were a lot of things I wanted that were only revealed over time. It's hard to act without really knowing what you want. Staring at a river in Ravenna and contemplating what you want is a great use of your time right now. In the event that your wife or you move forward with separation and divorce, you will be in a much stronger position if you know what it is that you want.
The second thing the mediator said was that by giving my spouse what he wanted I would ultimately end up getting what I want. That one took me a while to work out.
So, that cost me $350 an hour. It's my gift to you. Do with it what you will. Have a cannoli.
Hey AP, I'm in for a nice Chianti and a caprese salad (maybe we can share a bottle Altair?) please!
I struggle with the standing and waiting issue. I don't think you can stand for your marriage unless you are also waiting to a certain degree. Not so much by giving out WS's the power over how we live our lives but more to do with not moving forward so much that we are too far down the river for them to see us anymore. As you probably know I'm not good at the waiting for H to make his mind up. This will most likely blow up in my face at some point but for me I need to be doing something!
Let's sit by the river for a while and sip our glasses of wine while watching the MLC gondolas slip down the Rubicon. I love people watching so this should be interesting....
Budge up everyone!
I'll have Chianti too please and a nice margarita pizza. It's nice here isn't it?
Thanks everyone. I love how you all "play along" with whatever the current theme may happen to be. It makes it both more real and more fun for me at least.
Your comments have been very helpful to me this morning as I re-read them. I had been "spinning" a bit now that I've taken some actions wanting to do more and push this thing farther along. I am reminded to take a breath and take my time. There is no hurry.
It does concern me that you say you feel its your DUTY to stand for your m and wait to see if your w comes out the other side of this wanting to come back to you. That word - DUTY - it almost feels like an obligation, not a desire
....
Its not easy, thinking about moving forwards without them in the picture, it some how feels disloyal.
LouR - Thank you - this is certainly something that I need to give further thought to. I rearranged your comments to put what I felt are two similar themes together. For me and through my marriage I knew that not everything would be sunshine, roses and unicorn farts. Duty and Loyalty are indeed things that have kept me going. I swore a vow 27 years ago plus I also have promised W that I will not abandon her. Others have argued with me that she has abandoned me by having an affair and by moving out but as far as I can tell she has not "released" me from my duty. Yes, desire is there as well but waxes and wanes with every shift of the wind. I don't trust desire either. I desire multiple contradictory things and my thoughts spin when I focus on that. Duty and loyalty I understand and are core to why I haven't just thrown the towel in and given up.
I tried to be the person he wanted me to be, tried to entice him into being interested in me again, I lived my life waiting for him to come out of this. I now understand (IMPO) that standing is not waiting, its hoping that one day your s will catch up with you and you will remain open to the possibility that you could reconcile should the situation be right for both of you.
This is interesting as well. I got into quite the argument on this forum at one point when I commented that I quite liked the person that I am and that if W didn't that was her problem and not mine. Both she and I have undoubtedly changed over the past while. I can think back to a bit over 2 years ago when she really started changing in a number of ways that were unpleasant to me as she went into replay. If our paths do cross again in the future we will almost be two strangers who have to introduce themselves I would think.
The second thing the mediator said was that by giving my spouse what he wanted I would ultimately end up getting what I want. That one took me a while to work out.
So, that cost me $350 an hour. It's my gift to you. Do with it what you will. Have a cannoli.
bttrfly - That is a very helpful comment and I love cannoli. From BD1 I have focused on what "I" want out of any settlement and tbh have been very self-centred and greedy about it. None of it has ever come to fruition because despite me sometimes checking the mail twice a day, no letter from her lawyer has ever arrived. I no longer expect one since having coffee with her on the 30th of November and seeing a very frightened confused woman who to me was appearing to be wanting to "do the right thing" and who appeared relieved when I didn't care about "stuff" or money. Even going back to September I started to realize that she wasn't going to be initiating anything.
So. I'm waiting for responses from the bank on some changes I want to make there. I've adjusted my pay to go into a separate account that I set up in July. I also wrote to my insurance broker about house and car insurance and am waiting for that response. Last week I wrote to a firm which claims to do a "simple separation" essentially asking for a proposal based on my situation. I want to understand that process and my options more clearly and don't want to get suckered into handing over thousands of dollars for information that I may not act on. I've already updated my will and life insurance. I've not bothered letting W know.
Westo & Coly23 - welcome to the party.
I struggle with the standing and waiting issue. I don't think you can stand for your marriage unless you are also waiting to a certain degree. Not so much by giving out WS's the power over how we live our lives but more to do with not moving forward so much that we are too far down the river for them to see us anymore. As you probably know I'm not good at the waiting for H to make his mind up. This will most likely blow up in my face at some point but for me I need to be doing something!
I really wish I had an answer to this too. We have an emotional, legal, and financial connection to our spouses and these are not easily set aside and I agree - it's pretty much impossible to do unless we decide that we don't want them back. Partners are not like pants, we can't just put them into the closet for another day. Man - was that ever a bad analogy.
Anyway - lunch time is over here in the real world. Take care everyone.
Ok - I think I need some assistance with this. I heard back from the insurance broker today and to properly split things up I would need W to file a "Release of Interest" with them. The house insurance isn't due until September so no big whoop on that. The car insurance is due next month though.
Here's a draft email that I need some input on. The general tone is intended to be non-confrontational and positive. I'll be forwarding the email I got back from our broker on this. And yes, she does know more about insurance than I do. The plan would be to send this to her in about a week or so. Earlier if the bill shows up in the mail.
I've followed up with the broker to let him know that I'm thinking things over and to take no action at present.
W
The car insurance is coming due shortly so I reached out to [broker's name] for some information on what my options are (see below). I didn't want to act unilaterally on this because that wouldn't be fair which is why I am reaching out to you.
As you no doubt remember we decided at around this time last year to save up and pay this bill in one lump sum rather than going monthly.
As I see it I can either pay the bill when it arrives making no changes to the policy or you can get your own fresh policy signing a "Release of Intent" on the existing policy and removing your vehicle. Two policies would undoubtedly be more expensive than one and would mean digging into the contingency fund to cover it.
[broker name] did give the option of my pulling out of the existing policy but that is not something I want to do. Since you understand this stuff better than I do I would appreciate your input.
Give it some thought and let me know please.
AndrewP
good. glad it was helpful to you.
xoxoxo
All i have to say is ugh (for my situation). Our car ins is due sometime in the spring too (I paid it last time because i thought things would be resolved by then duh). and taxes, the last two $$ connectors.
I think you have too many words by about half. It comes off as patronizing at my read. Sorry I'm not at a computer to give it a detailed edit, but I'd recommend trimming a lot.
Andrew,
I have to agree...your email is entirely too long and wordy. You have to keep things very simple and to the point w/MLCers. So, let's see if I can cut some of the words down and then you can decide if you like it or not:
W,
The car insurance is coming due shortly. If you recall, we opted to save up and pay this bill in one lump sum rather than go monthly last year. We have several options this year: 1) I can pay the bill and make no changes to the policy; or 2) you can obtain your own policy and this will require you signing a "Release of Intent" on the existing policy, whereby you are removing your vehicle from the current policy.
Please let me know by January 11th what you plan to do about your vehicle insurance.
You do not need to advise your wife that you've touched base w/an insurance broker. I think you are being generous in even considering pay the lump sum yourself. I, personally, would suggest that she pay at least 1/2 of the premium and that way she has a bit of pinch to the purse. After all, she's not living under your roof and she should be paying something to help offset the insurance since she is driving the car that is listed on the policy.
Just my two cents. She's not going to grow up as long as "daddy" pays some of her expenses.
W,
The car insurance is coming due shortly. Would you prefer:
1) We each pay half the bill and make no changes to the policy.
or
2) You obtain your own policy. This will require you signing a "Release of Intent" on the existing policy, whereby you are removing your vehicle from the current policy.
Please let me know by January 11th please. Thanks.
Thanks everyone. I
do have a tendency to be overly verbose don't I.
BTW - the money for this comes out of a joint savings account that until recently W contributed to so it is "her" money too.
I like the idea of a deadline as well. Completely missed that in my original note.
I think I'll take a version of job's suggestion. Sorry Drew - your's doesn't sound anything like me at all, she'd be wondering who I was getting to do my ghost writing
I just got back from the bank finalizing a completely separate set of accounts for me (I know - it's been almost 10 months - should have done this a while ago). Things may hit the fan when / if she notices but I've got to be independent and even though she's not given me any reason I can't trust her as I pull away more and more.
Wow. Post #1000 Wow. Nothing really worth reading or picking apart. Just some gossip and reflection.
Altair - I picked up a nice Chianti for this evening, a 2015 Gabbiano. Quite dry with a bit of fruitiness to it. I hope you like it.
I've watched this "milestone" creep up on me for a while now. I used post 999 to post to my old friend ForGump who needed some good words. This post, I'll keep for me though. I'll visit around the neighbourhood in a bit. There are a couple of old and new friends I want to say "hi" to.
I've gone back in the last week or so and re-read some of my older threads. It's interesting in that I still very much recognize the man who wrote them. He was so full of fear and frustration which leaked out at inopportune moments. One thing that he didn't have was a lot of hope. Well, some things never change.
There's actually been some movement of sorts in my situation if you can call it that.
I've removed W from SnapChat a couple of days ago so that she no longer has visibility into what it is that I'm doing. "Funny" how I found myself now thinking "gee I should post this to my Story" and then not doing it.
I moved some money around the bank accounts because of the new setup and W was checking the books a short while later - me watching her watching me watching her ....
I did sent the letter about car insurance with pretty much the text that job recommended (thanks again for that) - no response. I've given her to the end of the month instead of the 14th. Even that gives me a couple of weeks leeway to pay the bill.
Another mutual bill - for the car club came today. I sent W a note saying that I would just pay it. The $value is small on her supplementary membership but I wrote that if she wanted to do it on her own to just let me know.
I took a page from Coly23's book (Hi Coly! Grab a glass!) and sent W a Facebook Messenger message asking if she wanted to meet for coffee and that if she wanted I could bring her winter coats. She still hasn't come back into the house since June. I know, I know, she should be a big girl and take care of it herself and I shouldn't be "helping" her but to be honest, I actually want the darned things out of the house presuming that she's not coming back. No response.
Unusually for W she hasn't been on Messenger / Facebook for the last 24+ hours. Usually she's constantly on there even if not posting. No point in speculating why.
The last bit is I got an alert from the bank that a deposit had been made to the joint account and it was W "catching up" on "her part" of the mortgage. I sent a brief "Thank You" text - no response. The money that she is putting into the joint account, while not a large amount must be putting a bit of a strain on her. This last deposit was essentially 1 week's net pay for her.
Other than the usual rambling nonsense I just wanted to write another bit of rambling nonsense. I think a while ago that I've changed my journey subtly. I've "stood", I've "cycled", I've certainly waited, hovered and pursued. For the last while though, especially since the New Year I feel more like I'm "dragging myself along". Some excellent advice was given to me quite a while ago to take it one day at a time and to make the decision fresh each day on whether I was "done" or not. That worked for quite a while, especially when the A with OM was in obvious flower and while I myself was so very fragile. Is it Duty? Is it Guilt? Whatever it is, I almost feel like I am trying to keep Standing one day at a time, dragging myself along towards some invisible bridge across the Rubicon. Some of the items that I've mentioned above and a number that I've not bothered mentioning are in part me tossing stones into the river that may at some point become a ford for me to cross over. A lot of me does want to. The grass looks so much greener over there. Nobody would "blame" me either. In fact many people are encouraging me. I've been told multiple times in the last week that I would be an utter idiot to let W come back into my life. I'm really trying hard to make it to the middle of March - past the anniversary of BD1. I honestly don't know if I can make it but I feel that I owe it to W and our years of loving happiness to do it. Wish me luck and please, please, cheer me on if you see me falter.
Until then, I still have a few glasses of Chianti to go, perhaps for tomorrow with a nice meatloaf. I have a recipe that I might try a variation of adding some vegetables to a basic oatmeal meatloaf. The big freezer will be emptied this weekend - the end of an era.
PS - On a slightly funny (to me) note. I was chatting with a dear friend late this afternoon and asked why none of the single women in the office, a few of whom are certainly looking, had been making any moves. He told me that he has had multiple enquiries about me and my status but thought that most of them were held back because my "gravitas" was intimidating to them. I do indeed have a lot of self-confidence although I did always think that I was approachable and certainly have gotten some good laughs from some of the women I deal with both single and otherwise with playful, flirtatious comments.
Anyway. Time for a stroll around the piazza. Ciao
Slight surprise here. W actually got back to me after roughly 30 hours and while she declined getting together for coffee this weekend she did agree to an evening next week. She has "plans" this weekend. I offered Wednesday and she said she would let me know.
No expectations. But perhaps I can get those darned coats out of the house.
One thing I've often second-guessed myself on is in regards to the dynamic in our past relationship. While she was controlling, I was always the pursuer. I was also always the first (and often only one) to apologize. One of the files I cleared out was from our marriage course in the 1980s. We both agreed that was the dynamic even after we had only known each other for 6 months. Run the clock forward 27 years, nothing much changed.
So - has she been waiting for me to initiate? Don't know. Is she "playing hard-to-get"? Don't know. Does it all matter? Probably not. I can certainly imagine her "friends" giving her that advice and it also matches her personality.
Like others here I often wonder if she is "DBing" me. It is so easy to over-think these things and I often do. I'm at least not as wound up as I might have been before. "Knowing" that the ball is in my court as far as separation / divorce goes is both a easing to my mind and an annoyance.
Oh well. I have ground beef and pork thawed for meatloaf later, the bake shop is open again after the holidays so I get a fresh scone and a visit for my lunch. Time for a shower, banking, groceries and to get my fresh roses. This is the first full weekend of the month so lots of extra laundry plus cleaning the house from top to bottom. I still have most of the Chianti to go with dinner if any of you happen to stop by. My meatloaf is rather good if I do say so myself.
Have you ever considered why she continues to make monthly deposits for the mortgage?
I don't understand why she hasn't picked up her winter coats. It's freezing out. Maybe she bought a new one.
RE: the one day at a time idea...
Every night I take my wedding ring off and every morning I make a conscious decision about whether I want to wear it or not, rather than just permanently leaving it on. It is not something anyone else probably notices, but for me it is a way of being mindful about the fact that I am in control of myself and the direction I want to go in. More often than not, I put the ring on, but there are days where I don't - sometimes whole weekends where I don't. The choice is mine, that's what's important to me.
AP that is funny about the coats. I found H's raincoat here. He actually left one thing here-- amazing!
I'd love to drive over there and knock on his door and drop it off-- I don't have the guts.
Have you ever considered why she continues to make monthly deposits for the mortgage?
I don't understand why she hasn't picked up her winter coats. It's freezing out. Maybe she bought a new one.
dream! - Thanks for the visit. Yes - minus 18 celcius yesterday morning. She had a few lighter coats in what she took during the original stripping of the house but it's part of the whole package that I don't understand that she's not come back for
anything. Part of me puts it down to fear which I've written about previously but I also don't understand. I'm gone for 14+ hours of the day, she has a key. I don't remember who it was here on the MLC forum that wrote "don't try to understand crazy".
As far as the mortgage goes I have two theories. The first one is that someone has given her advice that she needs to demonstrate that she's making mortgage payments to maintain a claim to the house. This as far as I know is wrong. As the marital home she should be entitled to a share of the tiny amount of equity that there would be. The other theory is that she wants to maintain that "plan B" and connection to "home". We can also ignore the fact that I'm still making her car payments which are higher than the mortgage portion she has decided is "her's" (Yes - I'm a wuss and didn't feel it was worth making a fuss about to force her to change the withdrawal). Before she left we did talk about expenses and she stressed multiple times that she was going to "do her part". The first few times she did it I ignored it. The last two I sent a "thank you" note. This last one must have hurt her a fair bit financially because it was essentially 8 weeks of "her share" paid retroactively.
Neither of these theories really matter though although I'm sure that presuming it comes to a settlement that the lawyers fees will eat up any money she put in as they try to sort out intention etc.
BUT - How are YOU doing? Did your wee baby and small son(?) have a good Christmas? Christmas with little ones is such a special time. I really miss it. A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family my friend.
*sits down*
Hi AP, aren't we glad we are in Italy and not freezing Canada? (signals waiter) You know what, I'm feeling like a mimosa.
I just had a sweet talk with a coworker. I guess another coworker yelled at her yesterday so she was all upset. She said, "The thing that is great about you is I know you are having trouble at home, but you never take it out on us."
That made me feel good, because I always do wonder if I come across as a giant, miserable mess, which is how I feel quite often. So-- you did it, you ended the snapchat drama. Question, because I don't use it-- Does she know you did this?
Maybe our H and W have run off together. Without coats, without a trace. Another thing that I will over analyze-- H was off gchat for over 2 months. He is now on pretty much throughout the day, I can see his little icon. Why? why now? I am always on there, I don't use it much but my online thing is pretty much on a lot during the day. Of course, I'd love to say hi to him but won't due to the "I just want a little more space" request. Anyway. This mimosa tastes pretty good with fresh squeezed OJ.
Altair! Glad you can join me. The Chianti is almost gone. Sadly I don't think I have the ingredients for an IRL Mimosa even if I went through the box of booze that W left behind. There's a nice Cabernet Sauvignon chilling though. French grapes used in Ontario Canada wine drunk in a virtual location in Italy? Sounds fine to me.
Before I get into my update, yes, W would have very much noticed me cutting her off of my SnapChat feed.
Perhaps our spouses did indeed run off together. I think I just did about the most anti-DB thing possible but I will confess that I feel good. I can certainly understand how Coly felt at venting at her H. I will admit that I've pretty much never done that at my W ..... until now and perhaps one other time back in August. I'm glad that I have good friends to share this with. Please - no judgement - at the moment I'm happy with the choice I made.
There has been a bit of back and forth on Facebook about snow here in Canada vs snow in the Southern USA where D24 and her H's family live. I posted a picture of our snow (about 2 feet) to counteract their dusting. Rather to my shock, W posted a picture of her car covered with snow in front of OM's house. Because I'm anal and need to validate my sources I did in fact get into my car and drive by where W lives to confirm that she was not there.
I then sent W essentially an ultimatum to "be honest and set me free and be honest with your children". Bad DBing? Yep. TBH I did in fact believe her when she talked about being "alone" so much and think that it was over with her and OM. A second message stated "It's past time to be an adult and be honest" was also seen. Facebook Messenger is my friend.
We'll see where this all goes. Perhaps nowhere. Perhaps I'll get what I've been wanting for months which was OM and W filing for separation and D and not asking for a dime from me. Callous I suppose. But I can be that way.
Realistically I don't expect W to "be an adult" but I'm pretty much done with this nonsense.
Anyone up to a boating holiday on the Rubicon?
I'm up for boating on the Rubicon, yes.
I'm sorry to hear of what just happened. That simply sux. I mean, I see why you did what you did, her sending that pic is just uncool. Period. I mean it still could be over with them or not humming along-- either way, I get the ultimatum. Ugh, you're having a day.
Also, I wouldn't expect you to have Champagne lying around, especially today.
Andrew Andrew Andrew, I really understand your impulsive moment (been there, done that and not proud to wear the t-shirt) and I also know that you know it won't get you the reaction that I think you -deep down - want from your w. Its done, I for one have definitely done the same, so no judgement from me, just want to say not to beat yourself up, you are human (sorry if this bursts your superhero bubble) and we do impulsive things when we are emotional. Tomorrow is a new day, so start afresh.
As for the F/b and messenger thing - Andrew, my advice is to remove your w off all your social media outlets and I do mean ALL. The thing is, while you have her on your f/book etc, you will see and read things you don't want to see - case and point made from what she posted recently - all it is doing is picking off the scab of your healing wound. If you don't like the feeling you get from seeing what she is up to, then remove it. Its so easy on an emotional, drunken or angry day to throw messages or snoop on your w when you have easy access to them, something that you may later regret doing. So make it harder for yourself to have that access to her and her life. If you and your w become friendly again, then you can always add her back.
Some thought on the coat question - My thought is that she has not even considered her coats or anything else at the house. Right now she has left that part of her life behind and having any part of it in her new life is a memory, a memory she does not want to have. One day the coats may pop back in to her head, most likely summer lol and then she will ask for them back, so until then could you box them up and store them somewhere out of sight? You need to try and remember that you are thinking rationally, she is not, you see things clearly, she does not, adjust your thinking to her being in a scrambled state of thought and you may stop asking yourself the question "why did she do that?" - the answer is "because she did" end of.
Andrew my friend, this day will pass by and tomorrow its history. You are handling this rollercoaster you are on so well, trying hard to find a way of living the best you can until the universe shows its hand and what it has in store for you. I just know that its going to be great things.
Oh, and meatloaf hmmmm, not a fan, but that maybe because of childhood school dinner memories ugh. Whats next on the menu?
I have been looking up Italian Cocktails and a Rossini has taken my fancy ......
xoxo
Hi Andrew, I agree with Lou about social media and I think it is the worst thing to have ongoing links with your spouse on social media at times like these. I too would close it down as much as you can. Not in a reactive and public way - more in a private and unfollowing way (I don't know much about this stuff) to stop you seeing her stuff. I know you'd like her to see your stuff...but really your own peace of mind is more important.
In your recent posting to her, there is a pattern of - you see something - it hurts - you thought OM was out of the picture - you drive and check - you become a little tipsy and emotional - you send her that message. I understand how it happens and I'm sure we have all been there in some way...but it's the opposite of detachment. It is remaining attached to what your W is doing and reacting when she does it. And the risk is your reaction can/could push things in a direction you may not want them to go. So many times, doing nothing is doing something...
I am D'd as you know. And I know virtually nothing about XH. I don't know where he is living. Whether he has his own place or a place with OW....what he is doing. It is good for me not to know and helps me move on with my life separate to his. Ultimately, I think that is the best thing - particularly if there is OP involved somewhere....does it help or hinder our situation for me to be so dim and removed? Do I even want to help our situation? I don't know - but most importantly, it helps me and that's my priority.
Hope this helps Andrew and as we say on the forum - learn, dust off, move forwards...
Xx
Hey AP, sorry about what happened although I can imagine it felt good just to do SOMETHING!
No 2x4's from me as you know I am no good at this DB'ng stuff but I hope that I have not been leading you astray! I know it did feel good to have a vent at my H and sometimes I think we need to because we are biting our tongue so much it becomes too painful to continue. However I was wary of giving my H any ultimatums because I knew he would take it and run because i know he is still not ready.
I think the only thing I would say is that you made an assumption about OM being out of the picture and you built on that assumption so when you saw that picture it all came tumbling down. In fact nothing has changed. IMO however I think you are right in that she needs to tell your children about the OM. It's very unfair to you to have to bear the weight of a secret that is not yours to bear. She needs to be grown up and come clean to her grown up children.
AP, we feel your pain and we are all here for you. Take care. X
"be honest and set me free and be honest with your children". A second message stated "It's past time to be an adult and be honest"
I have a couple thoughts:
1) what do you mean by "set me free"? You're free right now to do as you please. You want a divorce, then file. It sounds like you don't want to keep your "suty", but you want her to be the one to relieve you of it. The choice is and was yours on whether you want to continue. I don't see why you should be asking her to make your decision for you.
2) as for the "be honest with your children", do you know what she has said to them? You've made it a point here to emphasize that their relationship with their mother is not your business. But in this request, you are making it your business.
Both of these things come off that you want to be divorced, but you want her to make it clear to everyone that it was her choice. Like you want everyone to be aware of her indiscretions and absolve you from...blame? Responsibility? I'm not sure exactly?
I think now is a good time to start back over with a beginners mind and really set some personal goals.
Well - I did it. I wrote her a letter titled "I Give Up". And I have.
I just can't take it any more. I'm sure nobody here is surprised. This has been building for months. I did hope that I could last longer than I have and in hindsight I'm surprised at how long I did last.
I set out the things that we need to do and those that she needs to take care of and those that I will and put dates against them all. I told her what I would accept in a separation agreement and requested that she talk to her lawyer to get it done (I have my doubts if she'll do anything - who knows). I emphasized the need to keep everything civil and simple to avoid costs and put in some cost estimates that I had with the reference information to back them up. The timeline for filing for divorce is our 28th anniversary. If she doesn't hit her deadlines this is not my problem. I told her I was open to adjusting things. I expect her to bury her head up her @ss though and try to ignore things. The expected dinner on Wednesday very likely won't happen now I imagine. If she doesn't do her part I will carry on regardless.
I also reached out to both kids and let them know that I have asked W for a legal separation. D24 responded right away with sympathy. It may take a few days for S22 to get around to reading my note. The SIL army has gone into major cheer-leading mode.
As I was writing my letter this morning W did respond to my messages from last night with essentially a "mind your own business" message. I expect the monster has been unleashed and I hope I am prepared. Which particular monster will it be though? Most major Greek monsters had some sort of fatal flaw.
I have personal goals - I need to get through this with my sanity and pocket book intact. In some ways I feel horrible about giving up but I've been agonizing about this for months and tbh - last night - as trivial as it might seem from outside was indeed the final straw.
For now there's nothing to do but sit back and follow the plan. The first few items which trigger in a couple of weeks involve removing her electronic access. I promised that I would be open, honest and transparent. I doubt that she will be - she never was and I still have everything in place to make sure that I am protected against any sudden moves on her part with finances etc.
Wish me luck.
Hi Andrew, I think you are flip flopping around too much just now to make a rational decision about giving up. Don't send the letter I would say!
Now then, if you want to deal with some practicalities like legal S etc - that sounds sensible. That needn't mean D and closing the door unless you want to.
I also think 'giving it to God' (or dropping the rope) rather than giving up is a good plan.
However, you don't need to make a grand pronouncement to her. When I did this, I did it silently and the change was only within me.
You haven't been following the advice to detach and GAL and this advice is given for the good reason that if you can build a life of your own and become less affected by stuff she may be doing, it is more possible to survive and stand for the marriage.
So, let this 'decision' settle before sending any letter. Burn the one you wrote if that helps and give yourself some time to steady out. Just this week you were asking her out to dinner..
The important thing time has shown me is to feel at peace with your own part and your own decision. That's what really matters. Did I dig deep enough and give all I was able during this trial. If you can peacefully say yes and know you gave something that mattered so much all that you were able, then fine...
Good luck with everything :-)
Andrew,
First, I am sorry you are so emotional and flip flopping all over the place...but this is what it's like when you don't drop the rope and/or detach from their behavior. I agree w/Sotto that you are to emotional right now to be making decisions about things. You are reacting to that photo in a knee jerk way and you know what...that may be what she wanted, i.e., to see if you would react.
As for telling your children today...I think I would have had to sit on that conversation for a bit. By telling her what she needs to do...well...she just may not do what you are telling her to do. Remember, they don't like authority figures. She may opt to drag this out for quite some time...so, whatever ultimatums/strategies you come up with, you better be prepared to follow through on them. Doing things to get a reaction out of her will not work, as you've seen thus far.
You need to unfriend her from FB and any other electronic app that you have. You do not need to be seeing all of her business any longer. Why? Because you are not detached enough from the situation.
In MLC they tend to have another person in the mix and you are very well aware of that. You've been concerned about her belongings and her coats...I've remained quiet on the belongings for quite some time...but I will say this...some of them won't come back and get their stuff because it reminds them of their past. They don't want any part of the past life, at least for now, and unfortunately, that would include you as well. If you have a garage, basement or shed, put those belongings from the front porch in one of those places for now. At some point, you can notify her that she has "X" number of days to come get her stuff. If she doesn't...well, then leave the stuff where it's at or donate the items...but that may something to think about in late spring/early summer.
I suggest that you really think about your decision and the one thing you need to do is to set up your own financial stuff and stop offering to take on her payments, i.e., car insurance, etc. She's a big girl and she can get her own insurance, etc. Time for Andrew to drop the rope, focus on himself and take care of your financial business, which includes removing her access to any accounts that you have.
I suspect that she will now begin getting angry w/you because of what you've posted to her...buckle up...it may not be a pretty ride from now own.
Whatever the final outcome, we are here to support you...but you need to learn to not react to everything she says or does. Those knee jerk reactions tend to get people in trouble.
Hi A.P.,
My take is, there's like 3 main things going on.
1. A photo got you really upset, understandably, prompting you to do some kind of action, in this case an emotional "I'm done" letter mixed with financial stuff. Don't send this letter, I recommend a different action.
2. You've been antsy, again, justifiably, about financial matters. I think it seems wise to file for legal separation, if it will help you with this money piece of the puzzle. In my case it makes less sense, it would go straight to D, purely from a $$ point.
#1 is emotional, #2 is reality-- don't mix the two in dealing with her!!
Focusing on #2-- even the mere fact of gathering information is an okay thing to do. I'd steer really clear of #1. You won't get the results you are looking for and will just serve to stress you out. So, I'd stick to no R talks, I mean, you can protect yourself legally and financially and still follow DB practices.
The separation work might be a good thing. It will force her to take care of these matters which happen to be your LIFE. Then, if you do follow through with separation, you can slide into a new life of your separate finances and see what happens from there.
AP I don't think you are going to get any emotional resolution now, if ever. So focus on other elements of the problem that you can act upon to make you feel better. Like job said, you can "be done" but doesn't mean the door is closed, but cracked open and ignored as you flesh out your new life.
As for me, I might employ a similar tactic to the one I suggest. I may, nicely, start with ending insurance and separate the final savings acct. After that, I would ask him to file. I do not intend to attempt any R talks, I am just going to drop financial connection rope, and marital paper rope, which is dead anyway. I know now, I may never get the closure I seek. But I will remain peaceful and loving (as much as humanly possible) and forge forward. I hope this was helpful.
Ah, #3. That would be your kids. OK they know about separation, that's fine and leave it at that. A fine place for them to be, to know, no need to do anything further in this category.
one more thing-
It's possible your "i am done' letter did not have any R stuff in it; then, in that case stay the course of working on financial stuff. I've been thinking about this for months now, and DB books/stuff doesn't really get into the $$ in a way that is detailed or helpful. And advice from lawyers, well, that hasn't been fun either. I wish there was some good advice I could find specifically regarding financial matters when one is in limbo, and could be a dangerous Standing decision. And then things vary by state and country, legally!
Sorry to disappoint everyone. The letter was sent via email before I wrote here.
It does appear as if it was a knee-jerk reaction and perhaps it was. But this has been building and building for months. I am indeed done. People here have talked me back from the edge more than once but I have now gone out and am on the river striking out for the opposite shore. This is not about getting her back now. It's about getting her gone. As I wrote before I tend to make decisions by letting things stir and spin and then come together into a decision. I am comfortable with this choice. It is emotionally freeing and "feels right" - it's the choice that I've been avoiding for some time that has been forming inside me.
I did also contact the kids but just told them that I had reluctantly requested that their mother initiate a formal separation. No response from S22 - none expected. That's just the way he is. Supportive comments from D24.
job - Yes indeed I do expect both a bumpy ride and her to avoid doing anything. I hope to be able to rely on your advice and that of others as I hit the bumps and obstacles. This plan hasn't come out of nowhere. It's been working in my mind and I've been doing planning and research since March 10th. I'm just putting it into place now. The things that matter (financial, possessions, security etc) are all in my hands. The things that realistically matter less (separation agreement) are in her's. I tell myself though that there is nothing that she can do to me that is worse than what she's already done. As has been written to me many times here - I have the control. I have the power in this situation. Whether she cooperates or not.
We're here for you A.P. Hang in there. Soul brother, I'm the same way, will take and take and take more, then poof when I am done I am done.
Which is why this is so hard for us, their actions.
My IC asked me what is an example of something that would make you "done"? I thought that was a good question (and for you it was an uncool pic, which I totally get why it made you done).
For me it'd (it will?) probably be something similar. A pic, a car in front of a house, another woman after all this time and ridiculousness would make me done. Hugs to you.
Hi Andrew!
You're exactly right that we will never understand crazy, but that doesn't stop me from trying! lol. I think my ex just bought new stuff if he needed something when he was moved out.
How much longer do you plan to make her car payment? I wonder if she is paying on the house to have a claim on it (a portion of it at least) when the divorce process starts rolling. Similarly, could you claim her car since you're paying for it? Just wondering. I'm glad that you have opened a 2nd account for yourself. She can't claim that!
Funny story - heard this from my aunt. Her friend's husband inherited a large sum of money when a family member passed away. The husband refused to share it with his wife. He bought a boat, a car... whatever expensive toys he wanted. However, he had the money deposited into their joint account before he purchased things. When she found out he was having an affair and divorced him, she was able to get half of that money!!!
Anyway, I'm not at all surprised of your letter. You've been hinting that you may be tired of all of this waiting around. I'm glad you finally made a decision for yourself. Personally, I waited a year before I filed. I was pregnant when the affair started and certain that he would chose his family over her! I never wanted to get divorced. The main reason I filed a year later is because I promised myself I wouldn't stay married to him if this was still happening. I didn't deserve to be treated the way I was treated by him. I dragged it out as long as possible. But it ended up being a blessing in disguise... I could have never gotten remarried and had a baby if I stayed married to XH!
Has she responded at all to your letter?
I'm doing well. Thanks.
My wee baby is now 6 months old!!! My 2 older boys are enjoying having a baby brother. They love to hold him and he loves to watch them! We had a good Christmas. and a fun New Year's. Next year will be even better when my baby is running around and able to participate in the fun.
Keep posting. I like reading your story!
Andrew
Typical of this board you are receiving some great advice. I know you were bracing for 2x4's but most of us have lost it at one time or another with the MLC crisis so its really hard to be a hypocrite when it comes to backsliding. We all do it at some point or another, I called mine a wh@re and meant it .... ion 25 years I never called her a B even if she was so it took us both by suprise and TBH releasing that felt cathartic though I wish I could have exercised some control ... whats done is done.
I will point out the common theme I get when I read your posts is control, you do seem to do things our of fear and to regain some kind of control in all this. Telling a MLCr what to do and when you may get better results baptizing a cat. Just expect her to drag it out and not really do much.
I will also echo some comments ... no grand announcement from you, if you are going to do something just do it. No need to stand upon the table and announce it just to gauge the reaction.
As far as social media, mine blocked me moons ago, was her way to punish me but she really did me a favor. My curiosity here ... why block her from SnapChat and not all the applications? If you are going to block her ... shut her off completely KWIM?
Social media is not something I really use much anymore, I realized that for me it was a way I would look for validation and in a way love. I would post something I did and if I didn't get x amounts of likes I felt like a failure, but if I got over X I felt loved, I realized this was not a healthy way to be, MLC'rs are the same .. .they use it to show off this life they have convinced themselves is what they always wanted and deserved, I mean it must be for all they sacrificed and destroyed right ?? (There really needs to be a universal Sarcasm font)
So .. AP hang in there its a long hard frustrating road but you have that goal of getting through it sane and not broke its as good a place as any to start.
dream - So lovely to hear from you. I had thought you only had the two. Three boys must be quite the handful. They'll be your solid rocks of support in the years to come though. I'm sure they'll grow into men to be proud of with a mother like you to guide them.
The car payments are done in June. It's not a big deal to me and historically hasn't been worth making a stink about. It is also less than what she is paying on the mortgage so I have math on my side if it comes to a fight. I agree that her paying on the house was undoubtedly to maintain a claim to it which legally speaking is pure balderdash but is probably an indication of the quality of advice she is getting from her enablers. I am very pleased though on how responsible she has been through all of this. I am sure that she has had lots of people around her pushing for her to "strip the b@stard clean". She mentioned it in fact. I think in many ways that she is determined to do this on her own. She has a huge amount of pride and I think lacked in self-confidence. I myself have every confidence that she can make it and thrive on her own if that is her choice. She is a very capable woman and I would tell her that regularly whenever she doubted herself. And I never lied to her.
Division of property can be a dicey thing from what I understand from divorced friends and even though I have separate accounts they could be up for grabs. Good thing I'm broke
. There is also very little money in the house equity mostly because it's a house in a cheap area. In what I wrote to STBX I pointed out that what little money and equity we had would vanish in legal fees if we fought about it which is very true. But I won't roll over either. Since it's a natural tendency of mine anyway and from what both a divorced friend and my lawyer have advised me I am being open, honest and transparent. As I've advised other's "Don't be an @ss". If this does go before a judge which I really hope it doesn't there very likely will be some weight put on the fact that while I've kept her access open and been completely honest that she stripped valuables out of the house without telling me and has concealed all of her activities and finances from me. It would cost her a lot of legal fees to prove that she's hiding nothing. I've been very conscious of appearances and how things might be taken in an "unbiased court" and have taken a lot of care to keep a shine on my actions. Honestly though, I don't want this to be nasty. I just want it to be over and in part it is. I've started the train and set the schedule.
There has been no response to my letter and tbh I don't really expect much of one for some time at least. There is even a strong chance in my mind that she may never respond and may do none of the things that I listed in the letter. I have backup plans for pretty much all of those items. The critical ones for sure. After all I've had 10 months to plan this out and I am getting some great advice both from the people here and from some good friends who have walked this path before. I've given her a really hard sharp and quite probably unexpected blow I think that she is going to have to recover from and think about. I am curious if she will still want to get together on Wednesday for coffee and to get her coats. We both have this amazing and stupid ability to put things aside and pretend that they never happened. I really have no idea how / if OM will play into this. In my letter I pointed out that she and he did not need my "few sticks of furniture". If he wants her, he can have her and the legal fees can be kept to a minimum if she just legally walks away from what she has already emotionally and physically walked away from. He's got more than enough money to just write a cheque and make it a done deal. I don't know if her pride would allow that though. It certainly wouldn't if she were with me. She would have insisted on doing it on her own.
The second account was set up to protect myself from any crazy that might happen. I will move money into the joint account to cover the bills that I haven't moved and pay the rest out of my own account. If crazy does happen then I have enough cushion thanks to a very friendly bank manager to carry me through any storm. I continue to be pleased by how very nice people are to those in trouble.
Thanks again for the visit - it was great to see your name. Even though you don't post much you came into my life at a very crucial time and were the calm voice of reason that I needed then and other times. I am grateful to have had this chance to know you. Thank you.
Telling a MLCr what to do and when you may get better results baptizing a cat. Just expect her to drag it out and not really do much.
I've actually done that. I planned it out and wore heavy work gloves. The cat did not appreciate it and the net result I was looking for (the cat smelled bad) was not fixed. It was a glandular issue. Yes I do in fact expect STBX to drag things out. While I don't want that, I have planned for it. I also have planned for her acting monster and quicker than expected. I hope I'm covered - I'm sure you'll hear one way or another
I do so love telling my story.
My curiosity here ... why block her from SnapChat and not all the applications? If you are going to block her ... shut her off completely KWIM?
I wasn't going to respond to your post - not out of rudeness - I quite appreciate the time, effort and thought you give to your messages - but because I mostly just answered almost everything just a moment ago.
This has been a contentious issue here both between me and pretty much everyone else and also for a few others so I wanted to just address it. Most of the people who are so very adamant about shutting down social media connections with their spouses also often point out how they themselves do not use social media. Sorry - but that decreases the credibility of the advice in my mind - no offence intended. The advice was well meant even if often bluntly delivered. SnapChat was indeed a method I used knowingly to "advertise" what I was doing in my world to W. It showed a man and his cats getting on with life, not doing anything exciting and being a safe and secure lighthouse. It was the "beacon" as you might say. However I also realized that it was also one of the bonds that tied me to STBX. Did it actually do me "good" in terms of winning her back to advertise in this way? Probably not. Did it help keep me Standing by reassuring me that she did in fact care what was going on in my life? Darned right and I needed every single possible crumb to keep me doing that and this was a big juicy one. However based on the wisdom that job has given me it probably also kept her satisfied that I was right where she left me and that she could continue playing Queen of Fairy Princess Land which I also accepted as fact. I shut her access down for 2 reasons. The first one was because I knew that I was doing my DB case harm with it. I'm a slow learner but messages do get through in time especially when she mentioned to me that she had been watching. I already knew that but having her say it struck me oddly. The second reason was because I had gotten tired and annoyed at myself validating that she still was interested in me by checking to see if she had seen what she had posted. Just like with any addiction though it took an effort of will by my own wishes and not the pressure of those outside me to break me of it.
The only other social media we are connected on is Facebook. I'm going to keep that for now. Yes - I had a similar addiction earlier but tbh she hardly ever posts anything any more. A huge change from both before BD and from the few months after when she was on top of the world with so many of her "friends" cheering her on while she had the rush of being secretly with OM. Certainly after I get the most critical things taken care of I will remove her plus all of her relatives. Her friends who aren't my friends removed me quite a long time ago. I won't bother blocking her because I really don't care if she sees how wonderful my life will be without her. For now it give me via Messenger a communications method where I can send her things and know that she has seen them.
Andrew,
One of the reasons that your wife is still paying towards the mortgage is so that you, your lawyer and the judicial system can't say that she abandoned the home. My xh attempted this little game, but I cut him off very fast w/that little move. In the eyes of some courts, it wouldn't matter if she paid on the mortgage or not, just as long as her name is on it.
Hey AP, just to let you know I'm thinking about you. Hang in there AP, you already sound much stronger today. (((AP)))
Andrew,
One of the reasons that your wife is still paying towards the mortgage is so that you, your lawyer and the judicial system can't say that she abandoned the home. My xh attempted this little game, but I cut him off very fast w/that little move. In the eyes of some courts, it wouldn't matter if she paid on the mortgage or not, just as long as her name is on it.
Exactly. In the interim there's a few extra dollars in the bank account. If she does it again then I will request that she pull the money back out.
I did some reading a few months ago about "abandonment" in a legal sense. It is a factor in some jurisdictions but not in mine. As the marital home she is "entitled" to continue to have use of it and to a portion of the value of it. It makes sense - a lot of SAHM would not be contributing financially to a house but still are equal partners in the marriage. Even though it is clean (these days) I'm not planning on any renovations or anything that will increase the value of it in the near future. According to divorced friends the value is set not at the time of separation but at the time of an agreement. Oh well - I'm used to the crappy flooring in the kitchen and laundry room, asbestos siding, drafty windows and sagging back porch.
All still quiet. SIL1 drunk texted STBX last night asking her to reconcile and then called me in tears and panic around midnight (4 times). I forgave her - she meant well and is going through some personal difficulties of her own. I suggested that she step away from the computer and get some sleep. She sent me a transcript later. STBX was friendly and polite and seemed open to chatting again with SIL1. I sent STBX a brief note thanking her for being understanding of SIL1. No responses to anything. The monster may have gone back to sleep - her Facebook activity appears completely "normal" as if nothing has happened in the last 4 days. I sent a copy of the letter I sent to my L for their files and gave them a heads-up that some further paperwork may be coming their way or that I may be engaging them to initiate things. No rush though. The letter set out my terms for separation and asked her to respond if she had questions. The longer things are quiet the more it could be assumed she is in agreement.
Your divorced friends are correct and after the separation documents are signed, you (and your wife) are required to have the home appraised for the current value. Generally the cost is split, but in my case, I opted to take on the burden of the cost myself because I didn't want to deal w/the monster that my xh had become. In the end, I did come out much better than most. As you've noted, don't do any repairs or updating until you have that appraisal done and are sure you are going to remain there. The items you mentioned may help keep the appraisal down just a wee bit.
Your w may not even mention anything about the letter. She may just completely ignore it for the time being. Why? Because you really aren't pressuring her to do anything and she's quite comfortable w/how things are playing out right now, i.e., you are still paying for some of her stuff and she knows that you are right where she left you for the time being.
Try to stay focused on you, your kids and your fur babies for now. I know you are frustrated and impatient, but you've got to dig even deeper for patience right now....it will pay off in the end one way or the other. Don't show her your hand of cards any longer. If you need to do something, just do it and let the chips fall where they may. You aren't dealing w/the person you knew...you are dealing w/someone new and this is now a business deal that's gone south.
Hey there Andrew P! Just wanted to stop by and say "hello."
I am caught up on your posts and just wanted to give you a virtual hug.
I feel you with the social media issue. Whether you block her or not on FB, it sounds like you have given this a lot of thought. Your reasons for and against are sound. If you are going to be the lighthouse, there has to be some way to let them know where they can find it. But if it is going to cause the lighthouse to crumble and fall, perhaps it's best to step back for a moment or two and rethink it.
Standing is hard. It's hard to watch the person we love most in the world lie, cheat, manipulate, and single-handedly bring our world crumbling down.
But you can do this. The fact that you have put together a plan and a back-up plan is awesome. Regardless of what W does or does not do, you so got this.
AP! hope you are well, please check in.
It showed a man and his cats getting on with life, not doing anything exciting and being a safe and secure lighthouse.
it probably also kept her satisfied that I was right where she left me
Maybe this is part of the problem?
The only other social media we are connected on is Facebook. I'm going to keep that for now. Yes - I had a similar addiction earlier but tbh she hardly ever posts anything any more. A huge change from both before BD and from the few months after when she was on top of the world with so many of her "friends" cheering her on while she had the rush of being secretly with OM.
So your justification for not terminating this is that she hardly posts anything? Here's my take - yes, you can get a "read receipt" from FB messenger, but nobody with a smart phone isnt checking it once a day (and that is a ridiculously low number. I would imagine most people have it with them and check it at LEAST hourly (in normal circumstances). So if you send her a text or an email, shes gotten it and is choosing to not read it or read it and not respond to it. I use social media plenty, and Im very glad I unfollowed my ex so I didnt focus on any of things that did or didnt get posted - what, when, how often, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that Andrew should unfrend ex on Facebook. However it's a reach to say nobody with a smartphone is not checking every hour. What do you base this on? Your own habits? I can tell you I work in marketing, am very tech savvy, carry my iPhone everywhere and bet I've not been on Facebook since Monday or Tuesday - at least checking anything for me or friends. Not everyone is addicted to their phones or Facebook so it's a reach to assume so. It's also rarely a good idea to claim everybody or nobody or always or never. Just sayin
I can tell you I work in marketing, am very tech savvy, carry my iPhone everywhere and bet I've not been on Facebook since Monday or Tuesday
Thats not what I meant. Of course, there are many people not on FB/twitter/etc every hour.
AP was saying that he wanted to keep the FB connection because he wanted the read receipts available through FB messenger.
Im just saying that if he sends a text or email to his W and she has a smartphone, shes getting it fairly quickly and then choosing to either ignore it or not respond. The little message that shows the time it was opened/read isnt really all that meaningful, in my opinion.
RIght now I wager whether AP friends or unfriends his W on facebook is the least of his worries.
It doesn't matter.
I understand why he likes the receipt. The point here, is that AP's W and my H ignore us. Totally. Like do not respond to texts, emails, pleas to please pick up coats, nothing.
It is a really bizarre space to live in, I can attest to that. Bank accounts left to sit, no dealings with actual life things-- just gone.
I often think this behavior in my situation is very "immature" but is that the right word? It is the only word I can come up with that comes close to someone who has just walked away from a marriage, a union, a family, and will not deal with the pieces they left behind.
Because of the level of insanity of being absolutely ignored by someone you love, a little receipt can go a long way. There are times I don't even know if H is alive. I don't know what he does, who he spends time with... nothing. Anyway AP is in the process of legal S, so hence all of this may or may not be moot, a FB messenger method of communication. AP's W might get a L to talk to him. Or herself, who knows. But communication will have to happen because that's our lovely legal system. AP needs some of this paperwork of life resolved (so do I).
Hugs, A.P.
Someday I'll have to do the same, just hand wrangling on when.
AP! hope you are well, please check in.
Altair - Thanks for checking on me. You must have had a "feeling".
I'm a bit rough today. Yesterday was pretty bad.
Earlier in the day I had removed the last of the pictures in the house that had STBX in them and cleaned out the "memory" box of all of the cards that she had given me over the years. That was "very" tough. We were so very in love and were for a very very long time. All of the stuff was put into the boxes for her if she wants them. I didn't have the heart to put them into the trash. As I was washing dishes before bed and finishing a bottle of wine one of my favourite songs - Willie Nelson's "Stardust" came on the radio.
Stupidly I then sent STBX a message tagging the song and mentioning that she "stood me up" last night. I had asked her last week to get together - she never called. She responded that she didn't think that I wanted to see her after the events of the past weekend when I ranted at her about seeing OM and still holding everything secret. We had a bit of back and forth and then even more stupidly I called her. We talked for an hour and a half. I was demanding that she tell me if she was never coming back or if she did want to. She refused to answer - not because she didn't want to it seemed but because she couldn't put it into words I think. In a message before I called she said "I am working on a way to tell you, but there is no quick answer" which I think describes what she said on the phone too. I tried to press her on her plans with OM - same sort of inability to speak. I think that this has been a problem for her from even before BD1. She's never been able to tell me that she's gone forever and trust me, I've asked and asked. She did say that she had gotten my email letter and the to-do separation list. She didn't seem to have any objections but she just seemed beaten down. Indications were that she was going through tissues by the box-full on her end of the line.
There's "something" wrong with her. Something very worrying. Well beyond rebellion, poor decisions etc. I do hope that she reaches out to someone for help. I can't help her and she doesn't want me or my help. When she left back in July she seemed depressed but determined. I didn't recognize the woman I talked to last night. It was a more extreme version of the one I saw at the end of November. One who has been crushed under by the weight of the world.
Could it be an act? I suppose so but I doubt it.
I sent her an apology this morning and an offer to talk again. No response.
I also reached out to her brother who is in Florida right now asking that if she doesn't come for her stuff could he please take care of it. I also told him that I've requested STBX to do up the separation paperwork. He's going to call her this weekend.
Today I'm just sitting at my desk pretending to work but really just having thoughts spinning through my head and being completely unmotivated. I still know that I'm doing the right thing by giving up and moving on but boy oh boy do I feel guilty at the moment. This sort of thing is to be expected though I imagine. I'm sure that it will pass.
In 1 week the first set of "to-do's" hits and that is when I disconnect STBX's access to online data files and our books. I gave her to the end of February to get her stuff but did tell BIL that I was flexible if it ended up being him coming to get it.
Oh AP, reading your post made me cry. It's just all so unfair. If STBX is so broken how can she expect to have a healthy relationship with someone else, that's what I don't understand. None of this makes sense.
Don't feel guilty AP, you have stood for your marriage for so long but I think we will all get to that stage where we say enough is enough and you have reached that. You have so much to give and you have come such a long way. We are all here to support you (((AP))).
Andrew,
She truly doesn't understand what is going on w/herself. She doesn't know what to tell you about her situation. Demanding that she tell you something isn't going to work. She's in crisis. She's an emotional mess and to be perfectly honest w/you...she can't deal w/everything...why? Because she's in crisis and a complete and utter emotional mess. In her own way, she doesn't want to hurt you, but she is by not giving you the answers that YOU want. The more you push for those answers, the more she's going to distance herself and yes, eventually the divorce will go through. In fact, if you continue to push for answers, you must might not get the answers that you want to hear.
My question to you is this...why are you in such a hurry to push her through her crisis? MLC takes years. If things at home have been going okay, then what is the rush for you? Are you planning to start dating asap? Have you met someone that you want to marry asap? How many times do we have to tell you that she's in crisis and you need to just leave her alone? How many times do we need to tell you to keep the focus on you and your side of the street?
Many of them hook up w/OP. What makes you think your w would be any different than the rest of the yahoos that are in crisis and have OP in the mix? Your expectations of what you think your wife should be doing are very, very high right now..drop that level to zero.
BTW, I don't blame her, I wouldn't have kept the date either after getting the email/text message. If she had kept the "date" w/you, you would have been all over her about what she's going to do, etc. However, I do think she should have at least advised you that she wasn't going to keep the date...but again, like a kid, she knew "daddy" would have jumped right in about what she's doing. Andrew, you aren't dealing w/an adult...you are dealing w/someone who has an adult body, but the mind of a teenager right now.
As for involving others in this situation, I wouldn't have called her brother about her belongings. This situation is entirely between the two of you. As I have pointed out before, pack up the stuff and put it in storage and give her the key and rental fee to deal with or put her stuff in the basement and/or garage where you don't have to look at it each and every day. Her brother talking to her will not do one bit of good, in fact, it might makes things a bit worse because she still doesn't have all of the answers.
Go back and read what MLC is all about and the behaviors that many of them exhibit. Your wife is doing exactly what many of them do, i.e., moved out, living her life for herself and not a care about you, the house, family or pets. She's involved w/OM and has left her belongings in the home. A majority of them do that...and yes, you are correct...it was very stupid of you to contact her, not once, but twice and now you are frustrated even more so. I suggest you duct tape your fingers together and stop texting her...go no contact and stay that way unless there is an emergency.
Get your sh@t together and focus on you and what you need to do to make yourself happy for the time being. If you truly want a divorce, then so be it...but quite frankly, after reading your posting, I don't think you are done. Trim those expectations down to zero and again...leave her alone, i.e., the more you "demand" things of her, the more she's going to pull the other way.
Yes, there is something wrong w/your wife...she's in crisis. There's nothing you can do to help her. People talking to her about the situation will only make it worse. She has to figure things out for herself. Keep the focus on you. Figure out a way to dig deeper for patience.
One last time...keep the focus on you. Do not involve others in your situation. Go no contact and stay no contact, even if you have to duct tape your fingers together...do not text her unless it is an absolute emergency.
AP
I agree with job ... I get it, its not going your way but pushing it will not land you the results you want ... pushing her will not get the answers you desire.
But I think you know that, you will do as you will do.
Just a side question .. have your thought about IC ?... I know I would have never gone but I ended up going, not for her, not to save the M, but for my own well being.
job - Consider me chastised. I don't recall seeing you as angry before as you were in that posting. I am sorry that I upset you so much. I will indeed find some duct tape which is perhaps more necessary than an elastic. I am done standing though. I do still care for and about her but I need to move on and leave her behind. I can't do this for "years". I'm perhaps not strong enough for that.
CaliGuy - I went for IC shortly after BD2 in April / May. I had an amazingly crappy one at first who perhaps did more harm than good. Then I had a great one that I went to starting in June. My last session with her was in November - I am only allowed a certain number. Thanks to her I was able to survive some of the truly dark times that hit me in August. She's given me a referral to another one if I need it. Perhaps I do, but I'm mostly coping on my own.
Andrew,
What concerns me is that you've been here less than a year and are already ready to throw in the towel. I honestly do not think you've given her enough time to work on her issues. Sometimes it takes a while before they start to realize that maybe something is truly wrong w/them and they need help and then there are the others that go off the rails for years and even permanently. My main concern is that you keep contacting her or creating an environment whereby her focus is continually drawn to you in some way. How can she focus on herself and what she needs to do to heal if you are still on her radar? She can't...because she's too busy dealing w/your emails, texts, etc., as well as dealing w/people talking to her about the situation.
If you are so willing to toss in the towel this quickly, then why did you come to this forum? You are very aware that it takes months and sometimes years before they start to wake up. There is no magic potion that will wake them up. I know that deep in my heart that you were hoping that the divorce stuff you sent her would bring her to her senses, just as your texts today...not going to happen, my friend.
There is nothing to be ashamed of in seeing an IC. I think you need to speak to someone, as I don't think you are coping as well as you should.
If your wife was in a coma, would you be in the room shaking her and telling her to wake up or would you listen to the doctors and allow her to wake up gradually and come back to earth? Or, would you have rushed out and started divorce proceedings because you didn't have the patience to wait a while and see what might transpire in a year or so?
What would you do differently from what you are now doing if you were suddenly divorced next week?
No, I'm not upset or angry. The tone of my posting was to make you sit up and take notice of what I was posting to you. I see a man who continues to drive his car into the brick wall and isn't learning the lessons that he needs to learn and I keep wondering when is he going to learn to slow down and allow things to take a natural course.
Andrew, there is nothing stopping you from moving forward w/your life. The only person that is stopping you is YOU. You are the only one that can control what you do and when you do it. You can make choices about a lot of things in your life w/o your wife's input at the moment. This is your time to learn more about yourself, improve on those things that you think you need to improve on and yes, even discover some new and exciting things along the way. Your wife doesn't need to be there to help hold you up when doing these things. Be that self-assured, confident man that we have seen in many of your postings and leave her to her crisis for a while.
I can't do this for "years".
I dont mean to be dense here, but Im curious what you mean by 'this'. What do you expect will be different after separation and/or divorce?
Andrew ...
There was a reason I asked. I have followed you quite early and for the most part I am not all over you about the things you do, I do try to plant a seed here and there in hopes you will discover them on your own but the path you are taking it does not appear to be effective, nor is the blunt approach as you do tend to shut off quite quickly.
I chuckled reading jobs post as I was about to reference the same coma theory myself ... so I will not duplicate that but instead I will tell you where I am personally in all this.
My BD was 9/22/13, easy to remember when its your birthday. So for all intensive purposes I am the Ghost of MLC Future 3 years ahead of you. I had no idea what was going on with my MLCr for almost a full year. I did not even land here till almost a year after BD. To be honest at first I was in the "Fine .. go ahead and walk,'I will do my thing' camp" .... then I realized I wanted to fight for my M and I made all the mistakes you could ... alot like you are doing now. Passive aggressive things, controlling things, punishing things. Strange that did not attract my wayward flower either (/sarcasm) .... after a long hard and extremely difficult look in the mirror I did not really care for the man I had become. I chose to change, started small and then more and more, I have become a person I am actually happy with, still room to grow but light years away from where I was in 2013.
You are still a baby in MLC terms, as is your W. You can not treat this as you have treated other issues in your life .. standing or not. After the 28 years you have together don't you owe it to your M and her to back off and really get to what is the root here? (I am talking about the crisis) I was with mine for 26 years and I arrived to a point ... sure I may never reconcile,I may not save my M but I can look anyone in the eyes and tell them I did all I could do and arrived at a point the best thing I could do is let her go and try to get through her crisis without me all up in her face .... I want that for my son, I want that for her, she is in there somewhere I know it and I love her enough to want her to not be forever stuck in that MLC hell ... REGARDLESS if she is with me or not. For better or worse .. this is most definitely the worse part right?
I am not trying to get you to stand or move on ... I am simply trying to get you to look at this from a compassionate view point after you cycle through your own feelings and issues that have been created from this crisis. Look inward Andrew and process what has happened you can be a better man in spite of this and share that with whomever you choose later on in this journey. Your W is in crisis and she just is not capable of much right now, at this point she hurts and does not really understand why so she is trying things that make her feel good ... these are short term fixes that she must attempt, she has to exhaust all of these options till she bottoms out and is forced to face the real root cause of this mess. This all takes TIME, which feels like an eternity for us. Some drop rope and move on, some stand .. many do something in between. This is your choice but I do get a gut feel you are acting out in a last ditch attempt to wake her up .. its only going to send her further in the tunnel, exposing this to others ... further in the tunnel, pressuring her to do this that and the other .. further in the tunnel. Job was firm with you because you are not helping yourself nor her with your actions ... but its coming from a place of compassion, she is trying to get you to see past your own fears to understand what is wrong with your wife.
AP,
This: "I am working on a way to tell you, but there is no quick answer"
OK, soul-brother, she said this to you.
And, you said something is wrong with her.
Take those two things.
The first is simply, she cannot give you an answer right now.
The second is yes, something is wrong with her, MLC, depression, whatever name you give it.
As you know I am in the exact same situation.
I have many urges to call and demand answers (and I have, in the past) and as you know, they cannot give you an answer. Plus, they are not the person you once knew.
So, of course, I would follow Job's action plan if I were you. For you, for your sanity. I know right now you will have to dig even deeper than ever before for patience (and not release anger). I am right there on the cusp of losing it, losing patience, giving up, calling to demand answers I won't receive, etc.
Hang in there.
Andrew,
I agree with all the others. My BD was last March. I haven't seen H since last May.
I know that I have to leave him work through this and while the mortgage and bills are being paid by him, there is no need for me to contact him.
I have an elderly mum and I can honestly say that if she passed away tomorrow......I will not contact him.
I am luckier than many here as he hasn't rubbed my nose in anything he has been doing. I have no idea where he lives even!
But..........I know that he will have to contact me eventually. So until then I'm just getting on with it.
I want him to come back too but he has to want to. As does your wife.
(((AP)))
Thank you everyone for taking the time to stop by and for your thoughtful comments.
I am still done with standing. I've probably been done for a while but just didn't admit to myself. This is not a "tactic" or an effort to push her out of her tunnel and back into my arms. Yes - last night I did push her to make a choice. We all agree that for a bunch of reasons that it was a bad decision. It seems that I'm human after-all.
Yes - I feel guilty and the arguments that were made by job and CaliGuy - both people who I quite admire and respect are strong and valid ones.
If she were to knock on the door tonight and ask to come home would I answer? Perhaps - I don't know. She's not going to.
This might in some ways be the best thing I do for her. It takes some of the pressure off of her without the beacon from my lighthouse shining in her eyes and blinding her.
The question was asked "why did you come to this forum"? I came here to save my marriage. I didn't know until after some time that it could be expected to be years before there was any hope of doing that. By then I was vested in the journey and in this forum. I've done my best to pay-it-forward as Jack asked me to as well.
Did I think that my situation was special? Did I hope for miracles? Yes. I was wrong.
I'm leaving her to do her own journey. There are some things I will need from her in the months to come to put an end to the legal issues around ending our marriage and I will continue to treat her with respect and courtesy through that process.
I have reached the far shore. I am across the Rubicon.
To those of you who continue to Stand, to live in hope, to believe in love. I salute you.
AP,
I hope you still stay with us, regardless of quitting standing. I enjoy your company.
A.
Hey Andrew
Well, what a week you have had!!
I know you said you have finished standing, and I respect your decision, you must do what feels right for you.
But ...I want to touch on something you posted the other day -
There's "something" wrong with her. Something very worrying. Well beyond rebellion, poor decisions etc. I do hope that she reaches out to someone for help. I can't help her and she doesn't want me or my help.
You can help her - you can give her space and time to unravel and slow down the thoughts that are constantly buzzing around her head right now.
She does want your help - just not right NOW and not from the pushy guy you are coming across to her as right now.
You know my story - my h contacted one day out of the blue, he needed my help, he needed me to listen. Despite us having rare contact for a year he knew he could pick up the phone and I would listen, I told him he could and then gave him the space he wants, I was/am his lighthouse - I don't know if he will do it again, half of me hopes he will and half of me hopes he will let me go -
You feel your w is crazy and that to an extent is true, depression is a kind of crazy. Her head is whirring, the thoughts are random and never the same for long, can you imagine living like that? You are making decisions from a clear head, if you have a bad hangover, tired and are coming down with a bug, would you want to have to make decisions? Because that is how your w is feeling and you are asking her to concentrate and be clear headed.
I really do understand you wanting a resolution one way or another, its a extremely frustrating situation and it has you go through every emotion know and discovery of a few new ones. I hope that whatever happens you find peace in yourself. For me a piece of paper won't do that, working on myself and my own life will.
I don't feel married to my h anymore, yet I am in no rush to get a d, I dont need a piece of paper to tell me I am single and my life is once more my own. If I meet someone else and eventually m is on the table, then I will address d ...if my h has not already filed, which he seems in no rush to do.
So, perhaps grab a great bottle of wine (which you still have to recommend to me) and take a step back for the weekend, have some time away from all this and have some YOU time. I can't recommend it enough, its very hard but enlightening to your own weaknesses.
I hope that no matter what you decide to do you continue you to post here, I for one value your friendship and will miss the education I received from you ha ha.
Have a good weekend Andrew, xoxo
I have a question Andrew, if you don't mind.
Has your decision got anything to do with flower girl (or anyone else) and any interest you may have?
I think many of us here asked you a particular question, including me darkness, and job, but you never did answer, and of course that is your choice.
But how is your life going to look or be different whether you are standing or not standing? Is there something you would be doing different that you aren't doing now? Is it a control and closure thing so that you could say "the door is closed, I decided you can't walk back in"?
There is a gift in your situation. Many of us with young kids who need to have contact or make decisions regarding them need to close the door for legal, custody, or what's best for our kids reasons. Our lives WOULD look different if we weren't standing. Since your kids are out of the house, contact isn't necessary, and nothing between the two of you would be different whether or not you are "standing" you can afford to let her bake. I think that's a great gift. I look to HaWho who has her ex under her roof with her 2 young kids and has to keep things sane for everyone involved in a tricky situation. Lord bless her, I don't know if I would ever have that strength.
Whether you are done is your decision. No judgement there. But it is obvious you want your marriage to work. You have decided you don't because it isn't happening on your timeline and you aren't getting the answers you want right now. Just make sure that is a good enough reason for YOU to close the door. It doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's right wrong. You just need to be honest with yourself.
Because aside for dating, if you are living your life the way you want it, (which you should be doing regardless if you are standing or not), life stays the same, and you just leave her alone to bake.
Andrew,
Everyone has given you excellent advice. Not one person is saying to stay in one place, i.e., we are all saying continue to move forward". If you need that piece of paper that says you are divorced, then by all means run out there and get it...but you know what? Nothing in your world will change because you will still get up each and every morning to a new day, going to work, coming home to a house that requires cleaning and upkeep and two fur babies. The only thing that a divorce gives you is the freedom from guilt of dating and not honoring your vows.
Now, my question once again is what will be different from today if you were to divorce next week? Is it the lady in the flower shop that you have your eye on? Does she create those little butterfly flutters in your gut that makes you think that you might want to investigate the relationship a bit more? If you say yes to this question, then think back...you've been talking a bit about the flower lady for quite some time and you are/were still married. Not saying you were having an emotional affair, but you are interested in her as a "friend" for now. For now, be careful as you are walking a thin line of getting emotionally involved w/this woman and your marriage isn't over, nor are you ready to get involved w/someone else. You've got to have time to heal and clean up your baggage and put it away or you'll be taking that baggage into the next relationship.
Andrew, I am not pointing this stuff out to you to make you feel guilty, because I'm not your guardian angel, but what I want you to do is to truly think about things. What's the rush? Slow down and think things through. Yes, you say you are done and aren't standing any more and this is a good thing because you are dropping the rope and hopefully you will stop contacting your wife. Dropping the rope will take the pressure off of her and maybe, just maybe, you'll stop watching her every move on social media.
Whatever you decide to do, understand this...your marriage didn't crash over night...it took several years for it get to this stage and the same applies to how your wife feels. It's not going to heal and become healthy again w/a snap of the fingers. It's going to take hard work from both parties. She's working on herself internally and you are working on yourself. If you are lonely, get out there and join a gym or get involved in some community activity, whereby you are w/other people. Sitting at home and thinking about her all of the time isn't healthy. These are things that you would do whether you are separated or divorced. Time for you to move from that one spot you've been standing in for quite some time. Get moving!
Take care.
Thank you everyone for the thoughtful comments. Please don't think me rude for not responding / addressing them at this time.
I have spent so much time examining my soul under a bright light that it perhaps has gotten a bit sunburned so I am going to attempt to be quiet for a while.
I do not know what the future holds for me or how involved I will be here going forward. This place has been part of my life for almost a year. In some ways it feels like home. I am grateful for the kindness and support that I have received. I will probably hang around for a while like that young adult who still comes home to do the laundry.
Thank you all.
Andrew,
No one knows what the future holds for any of us and that's why we suggest leaving the door ajar and moving forward w/our lives.
This Forum isn't just about MLC, but about people and how they are dealing w/the fallout of a spouse in MLC and yes, even some walkaways, sex addicts, drug addicts and alcoholics. We make every effort to support all who come here no matter the circumstances. However, when we see someone that continues to try all avenues to get their spouses to wake up, we get a bit firmer, i.e., just as I did last evening. If we didn't care, we wouldn't come here an hand out 2x4's or challenge the posters on what they are doing or thinking of doing. Trust me, we all do care about each other and want to help any way that we can.
Whatever you decide to do about your marital situation, we will stand by you and be here to listen and offer up advice/suggestions.
AP...Sorry things are hitting you heavy right now. Just remember, that you are in control of yourself. Nobody can tell you what to do or how to live.
I know you have been in this much longer than I have, but I truly believe there is hope for us all. Maybe the simplest answer is for you to have some space away from all of this. Continue living life for yourself and realize that true happiness only comes from within.
God Bless... But those who trust in the Lord for help will find their strength renewed. They will rise on wings like eagles;they will run and not get weary; they will walk and not grow weak. – Isaiah 40:31
K - Weird question of the day. Not related to DB at all.
The final "archeological freezer contents" have been tentatively identified as 4 chicken quarters that were frozen together for quite some time. There's a fair but of freezer burn but I hate to throw out food. I have put them into the slow cooker with a bit of paprika on top to cook up. Plan A would be to let them finish cooking up and then make some chicken stew from them after deboning. Any other (simple) ideas that would involve things that I have in the house? 75% of what is made will need to go back into the freezer - there's no way I can eat that much in one sitting.
Journal Update - The last of STBX's things have been cleared out of the house and put into the front porch this past weekend. I'm going to put a couple of book-cases out there too. The remaining will need a good dusting and cleaning and then I'll re-shelve the books. All of the pictures of her have also been removed from the house too. Sigh.
I had a nice call with D24 a couple of days ago. We're getting pretty excited about my visit there in March. She's pretty baffled by her mother as well but knows pretty much nothing about what is going on in her life. It's interesting some of the comments that she makes about not being surprised at her mother avoiding dealing with anything and at the mess that was in the house. She sounded excited about the fact that things are now clean(er) and tidy(er). I asked and she agreed to retain a copy of STBX's digital files against the chance that they are never retrieved. There are things in there that are part of D24's heritage that it would be a shame to lose along with some important documents. D24 has also agreed to accept custody of my wedding rings etc along with some things from my wedding. I don't want that part of her heritage to be lost and am grateful that she accepted this. She's not sure what she'll do with my rings but is thinking of making a shadow box. The rings are size 13 (I have very large hands) far beyond anything that she or her H could wear but she also thought about getting them resized down so that she could wear them.
I've been trying to get together with S22 with the usual challenges of him not responding to my messages. He finally got back to me that he's not been well (he gets sick a fair bit) - we've tentatively schedule Friday for dinner. I have some minor things from the house to take down to him too.
I've visited with a few good friends who have been very supportive of me on this journey and to a person they are all very pleased that I have decided to stop standing which is nice. From time to time I have doubts if this was the right decision for me but those doubts never stick long.
This weekend marks the deadline for a few of the items on my list that I shared with STBX. Her credit card will be canceled, online access removed and a couple of very close friends will be told that we are separated and asked to not make a fuss. I'll also be disconnecting her email access to my private domain. I'm sure that she doesn't want to be associated with it especially since it is named after my boat. There is no reason for me to involve STBX in any of this.
I've also done a lot of reading on my obligations and the separation process in Ontario, Canada. According to what I've read I can legally dispose of STBX's goods after giving her appropriate notice and ensuring she has access to the house to get them. I've done all of that but before taking any real action I've added it to the list of things to talk to my L about.
I've been playing around on Facebook a bit. I stopped following STBX's updates a few days ago. I find that I don't really care what she's up to now. I also found a few of the people from here but TBH am uncertain about reaching out to them. I experimented with creating a "throw-away" profile but Facebook grumbled at me. I agree with job's wise advice that having too solid of a link between this place and my real world could cause all sort of trouble.
So - simple chicken cooking ideas please. I'll be checking in about 4 hours to see what people have come up with. The simple answer of just splitting it up into stew may well be the best answer though. Spicing ideas would be helpful too. What IS marjoram after all? So many bottles filled with oddly named substances ...
AP: Absolutely no on eating freezer burnt food. UGH! Don't do it!
Hi AP!
So my contribution to a simple chicken recipe involves garlic. Do you like garlic? Unfortunately, I usually fly by the seat of my pants when it comes to cooking so I don't have a precise recipe. But it goes something like this, minced garlic (jarred or fresh), olive oil, chopped rosemary (fresh really is best in this instance), salt & pepper for taste. Combine the ingredients, coat the chicken. Bake at 350 degrees for about 30 to 40 minutes (depending on thickness of the chicken, longer if there are bones).
Voila!
I was really happy to see your recent post. I am glad you are still here and still posting, regardless of your decision to stand.
I don't have any cooking advice as I would probably thaw the chicken, cut off anything that looks questionable, and cook it. /shrug. However, I do know that I use Marjoram in my recipe when making chicken and dumplings.
That's all I know about it. lol.
Hey AP, how about staying on the Italuan theme with Cacciatore Chicken. Similar ingredients to FightOn's recipe:
1x onion sliced
2x garlic cloves, sliced
1tsp olive oil
400g can chopped tomatoes
2x tbsp chopped rosemary
Small handful of basil leaves
Method
Fry the onion and garlic in the oil until,softened. Add the tomatoes, rosemary and seasoning. Cook for 19-15 minutes until thickened.
Heat the oven to 180c/160c fan/gas 4. Put the chicken in s baking tray, to with the sauce and bake for 15-20 minutes until cooked through. Serve scattered with basis and with your favourite veg.
Again cook for longer if bones. Enjoy!
Chicken a la Coly et AP et al turned out pretty good - thank you everyone.
I don't have fresh spices other than onions and garlic and because I have this innate problem following instructions I sort of winged it.
The chicken was thoroughly cooked in the slow cooker through the day with some carrots and a few spices that were suggested so it just fell apart at dinner time when I de-boned it. I used pretty much everyone's spicing suggestions although surprisingly I have no basil.
Saute the onions, garlic and then add in chopped tomatoes. After it thickened add in the chicken to the skillet. Stir a bit more and served with a dash of parmesan cheese. Yes - a side dish would have been good but - man cooking here
I would certainly make this again and be happy serving it to company. It would have been great served over rice but I still as yet have to master cooking rice.
3/4 of the chicken has been saved for another day probably as a simple stew.
Have a great night everyone.
PS - bookshelves re-organized. Sooo many books. I found a couple of STBX's that I had missed before that I put in her boxes. Some books have doubtful "ownership" so I kept the ones I liked. I only freed up one book-case because we had so very many books that were in some cases triple stacked on the shelves and covered with much dust.
AP-
Always nice hearing about books you are reading
(not sure about chicken you are eating)
Freezer burnt chicken stew. Cleaning cat litter boxes. Can't you just make them go outside? I know it's cold, but still.
Just got home, fed the girls and am making my lunch. Later night today - there was a retirement party for a friend to attend.
I may have an update in a few days as I work through my list and battle monsters.
Time for a bit of an update I suppose. I just checked the map - I am a man after all - and realized that going from Ravenna across the Rubicon puts me towards southern Italy and not towards Greece at all. Boy is my geography bad. And here I've been preparing for an encounter
Grecian monsters right away. Typical man - checks the map after setting out and then says "Oh - this is the way I wanted to go all along"
I got an automated alert from my bank on Thursday afternoon. A large withdrawal had been made from the joint savings account. I called my local branch and it reinforced why I like dealing in person with a small bank. The person on the line knows me well, looked up the information on the transaction then reached out to the teller in the branch where the transaction took place. STBX had done the withdrawal via cashier's cheque from a branch other than the one we usually use and had told the teller that she would be sending a note to me about it when the teller questioned why such a large amount was being taken. I had in the meanwhile sent STBX a text with saying "What's up with the large withdrawal?".
A bit later while I was out at the retirement party I got an email from STBX. In summary she's seen a L, she withdrew 1/2 the savings plus accrued interest as of when she left the house, that she will arrange to come to the house to get her stuff, and she made threatening noises using legal terms about me cutting her off from my corporate benefit plan. I sent a polite reply that said "thanks for letting me know" about the withdrawal and that I was open to talk about all of the other issues. I also mentioned that the benefits were on my list of things to talk to my own L about along with other items which I didn't bother to list.
When I did my banking today I was talking to the same teller that I had called on Thursday - he was very nervous that he had done something wrong by not stopping the transaction and I assured him that everything was fine. Again - It's great to have good support from these people. I'm sure that as I work through the financial and legal issues that are ahead of me that they'll be great to work with in the future as they have been in the past. For those of you steps behind me this is perhaps a good thing to remember. Get a good relationship with your bankers, insurance agents etc if you don't have one already. Also - automated alerts via text or email should be available from your financial institutions and are just being prudent IMO.
With the amount that STBX took, some things are a bit tight but I went through the budget and I'll be OK especially since I can now assume that we won't be paying her car insurance or legal fees out of that account now. It's tempting to pull the rest of the funds out myself and while perhaps "wise" it could also be perceived as being retaliatory. I'm covered if she is really really stupid and does that at which point I'd have to start getting more aggressive and get a cease and desist. I honestly don't think that she'll do that though especially now that she's lawyered up. I do question the quality of advice that she's getting though that has her acting in an arbitrary fashion without any sort of agreement in place. If she thought to scare me by telling me that she has a lawyer that part failed pretty badly.
This weekend a number of things on my "list" that I had shared with STBX trigger. I've canceled STBX's supplementary credit card which she hasn't used for about 10 months. Tomorrow I'll delete files from our cloud storage and disconnect her old email account. One step at a time along the road. Do I go South to Palermo or across to Otranto and over to Greece? There will probably be monsters no matter which way I go but at least thus far they seem to be relatively small ones. I was speculating while composing this post in my head this morning (before I checked the map and thought I was in Greece already) and was wondering what sort of monster I have. Is it a Cyclops, a Hydra, or my own current theory, a Minotaur in which case I just have to keep a careful lookout and stay out of it's way until I get out of the maze.
I had dinner with S22 on Friday night. He's not been well for the last week but was feeling better. It was great to see him and we had a good visit. His mother was barely referenced and certainly nothing about unusual withdrawals was mentioned. We talked about his future plans, his job search and our trip to see D24 in March. He's getting pretty excited about that himself. I've contacted my travel agent to get the hotel and travel health insurance set up.
Well - my first load of laundry is almost ready to come out of the washing machine. Chicken stew for dinner tonight (and many nights to come I think). The weather here has been unusually warm even for the usual January thaw that we have. I have hopes of being able to find my missing garbage can lid that is under one of the snowbanks still I think.
I hope everyone reading and those who don't have a great day.
Hey Andrew, wow no action from STBX for months and then she goes all out! I guess you have stated your position quite clearly so that has probably scared her a little into action.
You sound focused AP and sometimes I think we need something to focus on and have some control over because all these months we've let someone else control our lives.
I'm glad you liked the chicken dish, I'm thinking of doing that myself!
I must say Andrew....I like you very much. You know your faults but you are a good man.
She must be mad to leave you. You are intelligent, articulate and well read.
I wish you lived this side of the pond!
Sorry to hear of this AP--
Read up on Ikaria if you are not familiar. One dream is to end up there, with my little sailboat and garden. And little vineyard as well.
Andrew,
I'm sorry things aren't going as well as expected in la la land for your wife, but now you know where she's headed. Make your list of things to discuss w/your lawyer and definitely continue watching the finances.
Hang in there. It will get worse before it gets better.
Sorry to hear of this AP--
Read up on Ikaria if you are not familiar. One dream is to end up there, with my little sailboat and garden. And little vineyard as well.
Hmmm - So across Greece and the Monsters to the coast of Turkey. Sounds like an Adventure! Let me double-check the wax on my wings first.
Please update soon saying that you've changed the insurance policy to remove her car.
And perhaps you're done making payments on her car as well?
I don't know if it's "wise" or what to keep the money in the account. I would definitely write down the date and amount she took as well as what was left in the account, which you probably already have since you're on top of things! However, I wouldn't deposit any additional money into that account. Maybe only what is needed for basic expenses? Check with your lawyer to be sure though, but I hope she can't get money from your new account. Keep protecting yourself as best as you can. She's obviously not going to give you a warning before she does something.
I probably missed this, but do you have some thoughts as to what your agreement looks like? Oh, and did her brother ever reply about getting her stuff out of your place?
Things have been unusually warm around here too. It's kind of nice, but also weird since it is January!
Many moons ago, I was in the same position as Andrew, i.e., joint account, etc. Since my xh had taken half of the funds out of that joint account, I was advised to take the rest of the funds out...but leave $1.00 in the account so that he couldn't say that I had emptied the account. Ask your lawyer about this and be sure to show him the proof that she's taken half of the funds from the account w/o your prior approval and/or knowledge until after it was done.
As for the car insurance and making car payments for her, stop doing this. She has basically stated what she's doing, so her expenses are no longer your problem.
I recall when I was in the beginnings of this and my MLCr told me I needed to open up my own account so I went to the bank and did just that. While I was there I asked for a print out of our 2 accounts (Checkings and Savings) the teller asked me which 2, there are 3 listed. "Oh ... well yeah please all 3" as I poker faced that. I was then educated we had a secret savings acount that she had completely emptied 15 days post BD, this was no small sum and I still have the reports, her signatures on the 2 massive withdrawls. Any time a money issue has come up I reply calmly for her to take it out of that half, and record it to which she still denies of its existance but knows I have the documents... when and if we D this will be discussed and will be corrected when we reach a settlement.
Andrew in your case I would definitely freeze the rest of that account and any other accounts you have, have your Lawyer draft a separation agreement which should put a hold on any withdrawals and large purchases as mine did.
Most likely she has someone in her ear letting her know what she is entitled to which is amplified and what she thinks she will get may very well be different to the reality of the settlement. I have a buddy wife is full MLC, they divorced about a year ago now she is asking for his tax returns from the last 5 years and that they sell a cottage she agreed to keep in both their names so they could pass it to the kids. Truth is she has blown through the settlement money already and is looking to milk him for more.
I share this just for you to think about and prepare yourself for should this happen in your sitch. Protecting yourself and your finances at this point should be a priority
I would also have a credit report run to see if she's got additional credit cards out there, etc. Do not leave any stone unturned because MLCers can be very sneaky and will do things and then later you will discover those sneaky little antics all on your own when you least to discover something out of the ordinary.
dream! Nice of you to stop by. The car insurance is coming up in about a month. I'll deal with that then. The money she took should more than cover her separate coverage. I will not be renewing it jointly and in my note to her made that clear.
Everything is documented about amounts etc as well as timelines to get things done. I'm hitting my dates and not worrying bout her's. The letter also identifies my starting position for an agreement. We'll see what it looks like after lawyers drip slime all over it. She's been quiet though so no clue on if / when she'll act if ever. I believe I'm prepared for both scenarios. I haven't visited my lawyer yet but am putting together a list of questions. I've had separate accounts for a bit of time but only started putting my pay into a separate one a few weeks ago - just before she raided in fact. So there's a fire-wall between the money I "need" and the money that's "our's".
The boxes are all still there - no clue on when / if she will pick them up although in her very formal sounding email to me she did say that she would be coming for them. They're not underfoot - just a bit of an eyesore. I try not to look at them - it hurts my eyes.
The weather is about to change back into Winter here again - still no sign of my garbage can lid. The latest theory is that little green men have taken it off to Alderaan. Fortunately I have a spare.
job - I agree(ish) with taking the rest of the money out but am not planning to. The advice from my lawyer last June was to not move anything around. Yes - certainly a substantial risk but the reality is that the $$ involved are smallish. It's on my list to talk to my lawyer about. As far as stopping the payments that's easier said than done - it's an auto-withdrawal and STBX would have to make that change with her finance company - not expecting that. Also the amount of the car payment is a hair higher than what she's "paying on the mortgage" but close so it somewhat balances out. Something for my L to use as ammunition if it gets into the p!ssing match that I want to avoid. Again - not going to do anything without legal advice and the payments end in a couple of months anyway. I'm trying hard to keep fairly quiet and let the Minotaur wander around the maze on her own without enraging her. An angry monster with a cheap lawyer could cause me all sorts of grief well and beyond a couple of car payments. I did credit reports right around the end of December and they came back spotless. The small bank I deal with is "well" aware of my situation and I believe they are watching for any attempt to try to take on a second mortgage etc. I do really doubt that she would do something like that but I've been wrong a bunch of times and believe that I'm as protected as I can be. STBX has moved all of her business (I believe) to another bank so they have a lot more interest in keeping me as a customer than making a former customer happy. I love dealing with these small places where they know you as a person and where they "care". They've helped us out of tough spots in the past when other institutions wouldn't have. I was actually invited recently to join the Board of Directors - I'm thinking it over.
CaliGuy - Thank you for the reality check. I agree that she has at least one if not more someones whispering into her ear. There's not much more she can grab at this point and I think that she would have challenges during financial disclosure that I won't. I actually have all the forms filled out. She has nothing that I want though including money.
The "strategy" at this point for the lack of a better term is that I have in my letter given her my terms for separation and asked that she take care of getting it drafted up. If what she presents to me is reasonably close to what I ask for, I'll just sign the darned thing and avoid an expensive fight. If - as I expect - she's not done anything then I'll wait a bit longer - the plan is until the end of the summer and then start moving the peanut along with my own L. At this point I am perhaps financially better off without a settlement. The lawyers fees are still in my pocket for example. As I wrote in my letter to her - we "are" separated - we just don't have that piece of paper and we are no longer married - we just don't have a piece of paper that says that we're not. I'm in no rush to get married again right now (I can hear the sigh from here job
) so this paperwork makes no real difference. The monthly payments will be done soon on their own. Even though as everyone knows that it goes against my nature, I believe I am best off to not prod the Minotaur and to just tend to my own garden.
Further advice though is actively appreciated. I've obviously not done this before. Thanks to the excellent advice here and from friends who have gone through this I think I'll come out the other side OK. If she does go crazy - there is a limit to the impact that crazy will have that I'm prepared to accept in exchange for the possibility of peace.
As I wrote in my letter to her - we "are" separated - we just don't have that piece of paper and we are no longer married - we just don't have a piece of paper that says that we're not. I'm in no rush to get married again right now so this paperwork makes no real difference.
This is pretty much where I have been for some time. My MLCr was hell bent on rushing through to get divorced and once I was openly accepting the idea it suprised her and she began dragging her feet. I too was done riding on the merry-go-round and at present I honestly view D and MLC as something they may very well need to process through the fog.
So I sit here typing this I have been through 3 different mediation attempts, 2 online divorce attempts (Between 2014-2016), was served finally be her lawyer back in Sept 16 and have not heard a peep as of yet.
My sitch may be different as I probably stand to finacially benefit if the D were to go through, its not enough to prompt me to pursue it nor do I feel an urge to ... like you said I am in no rush to be married again either .... to the MLCr nor anyone else.
I will pass this on to you .... realize she is in crisis and protect yourself now, and for later. This thing takes time and they cycle in and out as do the LBS, difference is we simply have the tools to handle this. I speak often with a group of MLC-LBh's and there is some crazy SMH stuff that happens, talking custody of cats crazy. So just make sure you are thorough as I know you will be by reading your posts. Buckle up it will be a bumpy poorly paved road
Andrew,
Please start a new thread. Thanks!