Sheesh - Another thread. Nothing much has changed since the last one started but I managed to burn through another 100 post long thread.
Previous Thread
Lost in the woods - Camp 1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2717071&page=1The pertinent details are mainly in my signature line.
W is still moved out, still hasn't told me where she's living (somebody else did so at least I know - not that it matters), still isn't talking to me, still hasn't come back to the house to pick up her stuff, still is keeping quiet about our separation and her A. I have no clue what the status of OM is or her A.
I'm stronger and healthier mentally than I've been in a long time and don't really expect any movement on my situation any time soon. In a lot of ways I've given up on her ever coming back but that doesn't really change the way that I live my life day to day.
Look at you, A.P., burning through another thread. Just stopping in to say hello.
Look at you, A.P., burning through another thread. Just stopping in to say hello.
Hey GF! Thanks for stopping by. I hope you are well. I've noticed your thread is quiet these days and I was wondering what you were up to.
Hey Andrew good to hear you are feeling much stronger. Your doing great!
Yes, where have you been Altair!!!
Hi all,
lets see, NC for almost a month now so nothing to report there. Starting to get invited to holiday parties-- I'll go to them, my GAL activities are doing yoga and walking. what's everyone else up to?
Currently spinning and not the exercise bike type of spinning either....
Andrew
You sound good
One day at a time. we do get stronger and then the day comes when we no longer care
we move on-
Hope you have a good holiday!
Thanks for the hello's everyone. Just like a "regular person" I have up days and down days.
Colly - I'll pop over for a visit, just put the kettle on.
peacetoday - no holiday for me here in Canada - our Thanksgiving was last month although W and I would normally go to see D24 for the US Thanksgiving. Not happening this year but S22 and I will be going down in March. I have started putting up my Christmas decorations though which doesn't feel as weird as I thought it might.
AndyP
Seems like myself you are just living life now. It's kind of great in a way. Kids and you have fun. No spew etc. GAL when you want it. Focus on you, kids, friends etc.
I don't think about her in a needy way very much at all now. I care for her but I am not attached. I like it. I feel like me again. Might even stop ruling out an OW entering my life at some point in the next few months/years. Not chasing anything but - who knows.
How's it going. Feels like I can't do anything more beyond what I am doing now. So, all good I guess.
I hope you are as happy as you can be.
Surfer.
Surfer - Thanks for the visit. Today's gone "ok". "The lonely" hit a bit but I chatted with D24 a bit before dinner via SnapChat and that helped a lot. A friend of S22 and I chatted on SnapChat earlier this morning and I was able to pick up her spirits I think which was nice. I cleaned out the big freezer some more and discovered an Apple Pie! Vintage unknown but it cooked up nicely and I had a big piece for my desert. Thanks to the internet D24 is never very far away. S22 is a bit more of a distant contact but certainly supportive.
It is indeed much easier with our spouse out of the home. I remember darknes wrote to me a while ago that for them (sorry using a gender neutral term here) that it was like their W had made an imprint in them and it takes time for that to fill out. I still have a hole in my soul where W was but the fence around that hole is standing better and little Timmy doesn't fall down the well too often and the well is getting shallower.
As you wrote Feels like I can't do anything more beyond what I am doing now. This is very true for a number of us here. I don't recall who is the originator - I think it was Cadet who wrote something like "sometimes doing nothing is doing something". All we can do is live our lives, I try to find joy in each and every day. Today I had pie, one of the cats was extra affectionate, D24 sent me some SnapChats and D24's H was grateful for my donation to his Movember team - extra Joy today!
Yes - I am "as happy as I can be" - but just like you have a lot of healing to do still.
Thanks again for the visit.
Yeah. I guess I do have a lot of healing to do. It I am so very close to 'healed' certainly when compared to the needy eggshell walker. That silly fool has been dispatched. Surfer v2 (beta), has all the kind, caring, fun features but comes with twist of "oh dear how sad never mind" - google this and Windsor Davies and you will have one of your happy moments for the day!
Take care Buddy and have a great day!
Surfer.
^^^ Thanks Surfer - several LOL's here. I've not seen that man's work before. A classic British comic character actor indeed.
Journaling
Well - I broke NC 3 times in the last week but it went fairly well I think. I also "poked the bear" a tad.
Contact 1 - The email I had mentioned about the budget. No response expected, none received but now I'm free to do what I want with my books since they are no longer "our" books.
Contact 2 - A text saying what I was going to get for S22 for Christmas which had been on his birthday list. Got a "thanks for letting me know - I was going to get that but will get something else" from W. No angst detected in the message
Contact 3 - W unexpectedly made a large deposit to our joint account marking it as "mortgage". Perhaps she can afford it better now that she's not going to be contributing to S22's upkeep. No clue. I thought about it when I got the alert from the bank that something had happened and texted:
A-The deposit was unnecessary but thank you. You can pull it back out if you are short. I am managing ok. My expenses are modest.
W - You're welcome
So - no fallout from the book-keeping changes. I have a couple of extra $$ in the bank that I didn't expect which helped when I got some work done on the car today. My Christmas shopping is about 1/3 done (a miracle for me). W actually had a positive Facebook interaction with SIL2 (mutual "liking") which I stayed out of. I have no expectation of sending any other messages to W in the foreseeable future. There's nothing I want to say to her that I've not said before.
When I was at the dealership this morning I checked at the service desk to be sure that W was separated from my account there. I drive a lot and am in there about every 6 weeks for service and am well known to the staff - and I believe liked. W is in about twice a year so I have a much better relationship with the staff than she does. There was a bit of hesitation on the part of the clerk but she checked and sure enough W's information wasn't on my account any more but the clerk mentioned that W had been in. I pressed my luck and was told that W had left her summer tires to be stored by the dealer - so - they're not with OM which is a very positive sign in some ways that she's not confident on that relationship I think. Can't really read anything more into it than that.
Now for the "poking" - they had a new 2017 sports car in so I took a SnapChat picture of it and posted it to D24/S22 and my story with a caption of "new mid-life crisis car for Dad?" (I've never mentioned MLC to W). I also posted a Snap of me inside it announcing that it was comfortable and that I fit - a problem for us larger guys. A few minutes later I got a somewhat concerned sounding query from D24 asking if I was indeed looking at a new car. I reassured her that I was just in for a service call and that any new car would probably be a responsible economy car just like all the others I've had since my Jeep TJ years ago. I did check my story a bit later and W had indeed seen my Snaps about checking out sports cars.
The rest of the day has gone well. I had a scone and a nice sweet treat from the bake-shop for my lunch. Chatted a bit with the staff at the shop across the street (where W will work occasionally) about Christmas decorating that I'm doing, my second load of laundry is just about ready to put into the dryer and I feel good today.
I hope everyone else is also feeling good. Coly23/Altair I see that you both are getting along reasonably well too which I'm glad to see - Altair - if we can figure out how, I'd be thrilled to visit with you over dinner when you head up to Toronto next summer. It will be fun to see if the image I have in my mind of you matches the reality. I'll be the guy in the bow tie with grey hair if you are looking for me.
Hey Andrew, those sound like some good interactions with your W and I like your reference to the midlife car, if only that sufficed as the vice our WAS's used as as part of their crisis!
Yeah I'm good thanks although had a big blow up with H today. I might journal later but it's still a bit raw and anger has currently replaced the blood in my veins!!!
Very jealous that you an Altair have the opportunity to meet up. Should be fun if you are able to coordinate!
A.P.- sounds like things are going well there- really a scone and another treat?
Sounds good the direction you are going with $$ and such, I'm sure it will relieve your stress about wondering what to do.
I bought a doughnut today, something I haven't done in about 3 years, am eating half of it. Everyone raves about this particular place but I'm not feeling this doughnut.
I have this thing about doughnuts-- when I was a kid the doughnut shops such as Dunkin or Yum Yum were smoky joints with gravelly-voiced people sitting at the counter. So for me, I always expect a smoky-tasting doughnut. Even now, after all these years.
A scone sounds wonderful.
Went with friends to look at table-top trees, they nixed one for them, so I rejected the sad-looking trees as well, although had I gone alone I probably would have just chosen the least-sad looking tree.
Oh no Coly! afraid to hear what happened-- hope all is well.
Well - I broke NC 3 times in the last week but it went fairly well I think. I also "poked the bear" a tad.
Contact 1 - The email I had mentioned about the budget. No response expected, none received but now I'm free to do what I want with my books since they are no longer "our" books.
Fine.
Contact 2 - A text saying what I was going to get for S22 for Christmas which had been on his birthday list. Got a "thanks for letting me know - I was going to get that but will get something else" from W. No angst detected in the message
Fine.
Contact 3 - W unexpectedly made a large deposit to our joint account marking it as "mortgage". Perhaps she can afford it better now that she's not going to be contributing to S22's upkeep. No clue. I thought about it when I got the alert from the bank that something had happened and texted:
A-The deposit was unnecessary but thank you. You can pull it back out if you are short. I am managing ok. My expenses are modest.
W - You're welcome
Seriously? A 4 sentence note on this? Honestly, seems like no note was even necessary. Especially one where you are prodding into her finances.
W actually had a positive Facebook interaction with SIL2 (mutual "liking") which I stayed out of.
I did check my story a bit later and W had indeed seen my Snaps about checking out sports cars.
Sigh.
My heavens - just when you think that nothing will happen - it happens - or not.
I "winged it" rather than posting first - nobody is expected to keel over from the shock of that.
I got a text from W this evening asking to meet tomorrow afternoon over coffee about Christmas and "other things". I agreed and yes darknes - I used less words than she did <g>
No clue what's up and definitely no expectations. Updates to follow.
Wow, A.P., interesting news!
Funny thing is, no one knows this, but A.P. took the several barns-full of 2x4s accumulated from this site and built an entire Canadian world-class cabin, replete with multiple storied decks. Who knew?
(I'm next! Jumping maniacally)
Andrew, good luck with coffee today. Don't do what I did and build up your expectations! Your resolve and patience has paid off even if it is just coffee. I found that the first meeting is the hardest and nerve wracking because we have built up so much in our minds about how it will be.
Looking forward to your update AP! Now where's that 2x4 vacation cabin of yours.....
AP
I had a scone and a nice sweet treat from the bake-shop for my lunch. Chatted a bit with the staff at the shop across the street (where W will work occasionally) about Christmas decorating that I'm doing, my second load of laundry is just about ready to put into the dryer and I feel good today.
Loving this mentality. Just keep this if nothing else. Particularly when having that coffee. No expectations.
Good luck chap!
Surfer.
Good luck today. No relationship talks and keep your expectations very low.
Thanks everyone - currently terrified and trying to decide what to wear. I've decided on pants - yes - pants will definitely be involved.
job - I presume your comment was for me to not initiate any R talks but if she does then to listen? The Christmas stuff could have waited or been handled via text so I'm expecting her to initiate an R talk.
Just playing through some scenarios in my head so that I have my script down.
Scenario 1 - No R mention. Thank her for the visit and move on with my day.
Scenario 2 - She wants things to end. Express sadness and tell her to talk to my L. No negotiating done over coffee.
Scenario 3 - She is still confused and wants me to hang around as Plan B. Validate and say that I'm living my own life day by day and can promise nothing.
Scenario 4 - She wants to come home. This is the tricky one. She knows that the only "real" condition I had was for the A to be over and that she would be faithful again. The plan here is to suggest that we take things slowly and at her own timeline and that she stays in her own place for now. I will also mention that we will need help on this path and that rebuilding mutual trust will take some work. Even though I've written up a few things about how reconciliation might work I won't hand that over saying that we need a professional to guide us. I'll ask her to do the leg work on picking that professional but offer to help if asked.
Scenario 5 - Entitled princess wants her stuff and wants me to deliver it. Say no.
Scenario 6 - Unknown. Drink a big STFU smoothie instead of coffee.
How does that sound?
One of the big concerns that I have is that since I have had no visibility into her situation I have no idea if she's "fully baked" and actually ready to come home. How can I tell?
Fingers crossed that I don't screw this up. On the other hand - I have absolutely nothing to lose here. I've accepted Scenarios 1,2,3,5 and 6 all along. I need to remind myself of this before I leave.
Still - I think the brown pants will be called for. W and I were always very physically affectionate - enough to make others gag - holding hands and cuddling. A bit personal here but she would often lay with her head on my chest just listening to my heart beat and stroking my beard (in the winter when I would usually grow one - none at present). I've got a nice fuzzy grey sweater that S22 helped me pick up that I think I'll wear as well. I think it makes me look "huggable". I'm also planning on leaving my wedding ring at home. Even though the odds are close to zero that anyone other than me will see it I'll also make sure that the kitchen is cleaned up after lunch. I usually do that after making my work lunch in the evening (working from home today).
Hi Andrew, I agree that you have nothing to lose. For all of us, it pretty much lost at BD. The question is more whether we want to re-find or re-try..
Scenario 1 - No R mention. Thank her for the visit and move on with my day. (Yes - coffee with a work contact...for example.)
Scenario 2 - She wants things to end. Express sadness and (my advice - don't mentio the L just now. If she wants things to end - I'm so sorry you feel that way. D isn't my choice, however if that's what you want, I won't stand in your way.) No negotiating done over coffee.
Scenario 3 - She is still confused and wants me to hang around as Plan B. Validate and say that I'm living my own life day by day and can promise nothing. (I like the line - really, it's more complicated than that now...and we both have some decisions to make here.)
Scenario 4 - She wants to come home. This is the tricky one. She knows that the only "real" condition I had was for the A to be over and that she would be faithful again. The plan here is to suggest that we take things slowly and at her own timeline and that she stays in her own place for now. I will also mention that we will need help on this path and that rebuilding mutual trust will take some work. Even though I've written up a few things about how reconciliation might work I won't hand that over saying that we need a professional to guide us. I'll ask her to do the leg work on picking that professional but offer to help if asked.
Scenario 5 - Entitled princess wants her stuff and wants me to deliver it. (Let her know she is welcome to collect some stuff and arrange for this to happen. It may suit you to deliver, rather than have her in the house - IDK?)
Scenario 6 - Unknown. Drink a big STFU smoothie instead of coffee. (Yes, listen for 75% of the time and don't try too hard...it's just one coffee after all..)
Good luck and I'm sure you will be fine, however things unfold Andrew :-)
I dare you to wear shorts. Shorts and the fuzzy huggable sweater. It'll be a 180 for your knees.
I await with baited breath!, Good luck Andrew, hope it goes well.
Andrew where are yooooou! I'm on tenterhooks waiting to hear how coffee went!!
I just got back. We talked for about 2 hours - mostly about nothing.
It's essentially Scenario 3. From what she was saying (I didn't pry) it could appear that OM is no longer in the picture. She's having a rough time of it by the looks of it and is actively seeking help. She says that she spends her time alone.
It was decided to leave Christmas plans with S22 up to S22. I did verge on to R talks a few times and took a quick chug of STFU - sometimes rather obviously. W smiled a few times and even laughed when I told her about my "adventures in housekeeping". She came prepared to talk about separation and dividing things up but since I said that I was OK with how things were especially since she was undecided we decided to avoid paying lawyers fees. We did go over a few of the things but I made it clear that I didn't really care right now about dealing with them so we didn't. I did tell her that the future was in her hands and that I would abide by her choices.
We did talk about me moving on to a new R and she said that "she wouldn't blame me". I told her that there was no line of replacements.
She is going to come into the house and pick up at least some of her stuff (winter coats etc).
I managed to get through it with only using 2 tissues. I think she remembered and liked the man she saw. She said that we'll do it again. I told her that my social calendar was pretty open and that she could reach out to me any time.
Did I do "perfect"? Nope. Did I portray a man who was happy, confident and moving on with his life? Nope. I was a man who is reluctantly accepting what has been put before him and isn't fighting it. Someone she can trust and rely on and who still cares for her deeply.
And yes, I got a hug at the end after she walked me to my car. I didn't reach out for it but she turned around as she was leaving and offered it. I didn't try for the kiss.
So - very depressed and trying to work through her issues. I think she was happy about how the visit went.
PS - She told me that she's checked my Snapchat from time to time (Hi darknes!). I acted surprised.
Even though I'm tempted to send her a follow-up text thanking her for her time I don't need any new 2X4s right now.
Andrew,
I think you handled the meet up very well. For now, let things settle w/her a bit. She needs to have some time to think about the meet up and what was discussed. It's not necessary to follow up w/a text message right now.
Allow the man upstairs to work on her and let's see what he has in store for her. Miracles do happen around the holidays. Stay positive and continue moving forward.
Well done Andrew....it's all very well having a script in your head but you are human and I think you did very well.
No need for a 2x4 from anyone, including Darkness!
Hey Andrew, sounds like coffee went well. What would we do without that little roasted bean!
I hope you are right that OM is out of the picture. At lest that complication will be removed should the fog start to lift. I like the fact that she would like to meet up again and she walked you to your car too!
You did great Andrew. It sounds like you were shining your light towards her little boat guiding her unpressured towards calmer waters...
Sounds like you had some positive vibes come out of the encounter. My prayers are with you both.
Being D'd 10 years at this point It's been a long time since I've actively DB'd. I don't know the total details of where you are in your sitch but of all I read in your post about your coffee meeting, I'm not so sure telling her there was nobody in line waiting for you was a good idea. I also would not have told her you have an open schedule for her should she want it. Is this not the exact opposite of what MWD teaches? It's one thing to say you'll wait with D but a whole other to show her she can take as much time as she wants and you'll be right here waiting. Time after time it's when the H starts to move on, gets a GF, etc that things finally take a positive turn. If she is struggling in doing this, that's good! You want her to worry that you might find someone else or not be interested in the future. You sort of threw all that away. You can't undo it now but in the future I'd really rethink this whole take your time because I'll be right here waiting for you thing. I really hope Sandy drops by with some input.
Hi Andrew, it sounds like that went pretty well. I would concur with other posters above about not making yourself sound available and don't follow up AT ALL - okay??
You do not need to be the one doing any chasing and prodding here. So, carry on just as you are and assume you may not hear from your W again for a while...
Well done - I think you showed good self control during that interaction.
Pleased it wen't okay
I like the advice of DonH.
Best wishes
I also agree with Don - apart from the getting a GF idea!
Yes I agree sotto. I think the point was when these people really drop the rope and really embrace life without spouse then the WAS notices and may want back. Those people are no longer trying/wanting to save M.?
GF are not a good idea if wanting to save M. They can be a catalyst for change in WAS but that is not a game I recommend. Plus most lbs need more time than they think to be able to be healthy in another R. Best be fully ready so working on self is priority IMO.
White Rabbit White Rabbit White Rabbit
I'm not so sure telling her there was nobody in line waiting for you was a good idea. I also would not have told her you have an open schedule for her should she want it. Is this not the exact opposite of what MWD teaches? It's one thing to say you'll wait with D but a whole other to show her she can take as much time as she wants and you'll be right here waiting. Time after time it's when the H starts to move on, gets a GF, etc that things finally take a positive turn. If she is struggling in doing this, that's good! You want her to worry that you might find someone else or not be interested in the future. You sort of threw all that away. You can't undo it now but in the future I'd really rethink this whole take your time because I'll be right here waiting for you thing. I really hope Sandy drops by with some input.
Don - I don't think that Sandi2 comes by the MidLife Crisis forums.
I can't imagine getting a GF as a "tactic" to manipulate my W into coming back. How unimaginably cruel to whatever poor woman is brought in to a relationship only to be crudely dumped when her usefulness is expired. Sorry - I know that some people on these forums have suggested using these sort of scare tactics but I completely reject them. Perhaps that's not what you were suggesting right here but I've seen it suggested elsewhere and it has indeed been suggested to me and I've then been insulted when I rejected it then as I reject it again now.
Thank you everyone else for stopping by and your supportive comments. As job suggested I'm going to lay quiet now. Overnight I came up with dozens of different things I wanted to say to W or things that I could do to "help" but each time I "heard" job's calming words and also saw in my mind the face of my W from yesterday - a woman who it appears has come face to face with her personal demons and is trying her damndest to stand her ground. I think that she knows that the lighthouse is there but I am so very proud of her for facing these monsters on her own.
The future is an unknown country. I did indeed let W know that I am open to a new R with someone else so she would be aware that a clock of some sort is ticking. Shoving that in her face would not help her in her demon-fighting. Thinking about what job has written over and over and over again - and what eventually sinks in - it is very obvious to me that my W is still "baking". Pulling her out of the oven early would create a lot of damage to her, to me, and to our family.
Am I following official "DB" protocol? No clue - and I don't really care at the moment. I feel that I'm doing the right thing - letting my light shine and letting W find her own way to whatever destination she gets to. I'm in no hurry right now. This interaction has added a big pile of fuel to the fire that I hope will keep me going. I still think that this is going to be a long winter.
Andrew, Don was just using the girlfriend thing as an example. Not suggesting you go out and get a girlfriend as a tactic. That would be cruel to that other girl, you are correct. He was making the point that a spouse comes back when the LBS truly moves on. Saying there are no contenders lining up is not making it known to your W that you are open to a new R with someone else. When you say 2 contradictory things, THAT looks like a tactic. Better yet, say or imply NOTHING about your personal life.
I agree with Don- telling her there is no one lined up and you have an "open social calendar" (which by the way, reads exactly like "I have no life, I'll be sitting here waiting for you") come by anytime you want, will hurt your chances rather than help. Don't take this offensively, but what is attractive about "my ex is waiting at home with no women interested in him and no life waiting for me to finish up my affair and come home"
And why are sitting around with an open social calendar? There is a life to be had out there! You seem to have some interests, get involved in them! Join a book club, volunteer.... step out of your comfort zone!
Fine if you aren't following the official DB protocol, but I am known for my bluntness- are you really letting your light shine? I want you to think about that question.
That's great she came out to have coffee with you. But standing doesn't mean standing still. please remember that.
I'm with Ginger (shocking, I know).
You've said that you want to be stronger in your next relationship, whether with your wife or someone else. Why not start now? A great place to start is by not having a calendar that is wide open for someone else to control.
Hey Andrew -
I think all in all you did....OK. The things Im pointing out arent intended as 2x4s or to point out all of your problems. My intent is to try to help you to reframe your thoughts a little bit.
As Don, Rose, and Ginger are saying, your words and tone come off as being perfectly happy being a Plan B. I guess if thats OK with you, then fine. The trouble is that nobody ever chooses Plan B if it's always available. Its like that restaurant thats really close but you dont really like. Even if someplace you want to go is full, youre always going to be looking for a better place rather than 'settling' and going back to that Plan B. You arent going to want to go to that restaurant again until it becomes a BETTER restaurant and then it becomes a Plan A destination.
Being available to meet for 2 hours on a weekday during working hours the day after she contacted you, coupled with the following quotes show that you are willing to do anything for her. It's very strange to me that you would take your ring off and then say things like "The future is in your hands." Why are you voluntarily giving away all of your agency?
I did tell her that the future was in her hands and that I would abide by her choices.
I told her that there was no line of replacements.
I told her that my social calendar was pretty open
You keep telling us that you have accepted that things will work out how they will; that you will be OK with being divorced. Im going to call BS on that. The way you worded this, it sounds like a man stuck in 'the waiting place'.
You can get so confused
that you'll start in to race
down long wiggled roads at a break-necking pace
and grind on for miles cross weirdish wild space,
headed, I fear, toward a most useless place.
The Waiting Place...
...for people just waiting.
Waiting for a train to go
or a bus to come, or a plane to go
or the mail to come, or the rain to go
or the phone to ring, or the snow to snow
or the waiting around for a Yes or No
or waiting for their hair to grow.
Everyone is just waiting.
Waiting for the fish to bite
or waiting for the wind to fly a kite
or waiting around for Friday night
or waiting, perhaps, for their Uncle Jake
or a pot to boil, or a Better Break
or a string of pearls, or a pair of pants
or a wig with curls, or Another Chance.
Everyone is just waiting.
Stop waiting, Andrew. Be your own Plan A.
Thanks everyone.
darknes - I quite liked the Dr. Seuss quote which is new to me what book is it from? I'm a big fan of Theodor Geisel as well. Fox in Socks is a particular favourite although not particularly thought-provoking.
It's unfortunate here that I at least find it tough to give the full depth of context and nuance involved in a complex situation. I've gotten into some rather severe battles here trying to go into details and those wounds have not healed so I won't dive into doing that again.
Waiting / Standing / Moving - all just words that describe only part of a life lived reasonably well. I do feel that I am indeed doing reasonably well all things considered. If you are a masochist and go back and re-read all of my bajillion threads (which I know you have darknes - we've sparred many times) you can see that I've always been concerned with W's mental health. From the poor window I've had to observe her from I have had a lot of concerns about her. Meeting her in person appeared to confirm that unless she's a consummate con artist. There was a lot in our talk that I did not share - too much noise and too much for well-meaning people to pull apart word by word, over-analyze and criticize, just like there's a lot going on in my life that I no longer share here.
The woman I met yesterday afternoon was completely terrified and depressed and appeared determined "to do the right thing" and (perhaps) felt alone in this world and unloved. The woman I left knew that she was loved and that there was someone who cared deeply for her that would continue to love her no matter what. I like to think that she had a visit with the man she fell in love with all those years ago. Thinking of her as someone who is ill I will continue to treat her gently. I'm far more worried about her than I am about me.
We'll see how it goes. I'm going to follow job's excellent advice and leave her alone and not do things that would cause her stress such as blocking her from my social media, getting a girlfriend etc. Rose keeps telling me that I'm unattractive anyway
and others here have called me unlovable and someone who is doomed to be forever alone. If she calls again I will indeed answer. Am I standing still by the phone waiting? No - I am continuing to live my life just like I was 48 hours before.
Rose keeps telling me that I'm unattractive anyway
and others here have called me unlovable and someone who is doomed to be forever alone.
I seriously hope this was a joke and you really don't believe this. Because then it what me and rose said was completely pulled out of context. It was meant to help and not hurt. We do not benefit from hurting anyone one here. It's getting you to see things that can be perceived in a certain way that may not be true.
Sigh. I am persistent because I want to help.
But FOR REAL, I will back away.
Ginger - These aren't recent references and no I don't believe them to be true but they were indeed delivered with strength and conviction (except in part from Rose who later apologized) by visitors to my threads including vets. At the time they knocked me on my @ss rather thoroughly.
I now read all comments made through a mental filter and rather than "fight back", just walk away when I feel it appropriate but that was impossible for me to do when I was more vulnerable.
Rose keeps telling me that I'm unattractive anyway
and others here have called me unlovable and someone who is doomed to be forever alone.
I seriously hope this was a joke and you really don't believe this. Because then it what me and rose said was completely pulled out of context. It was meant to help and not hurt. We do not benefit from hurting anyone one here. It's getting you to see things that can be perceived in a certain way that may not be true.
Sigh. I am persistent because I want to help.
But FOR REAL, I will back away.
For the record.
I never said that Andrew was unattractive. I can't tell if he's joking or just misread in the heat of the moment and persists in believing the misreading.
There was one time when several male posters were doing some metaphorical chest thumping and I commented that I found that unattractive.
And I have spoken of behavior (begging, pleading, saying you will wait as long as it takes) as being unattractive.
I really should just stay off this thread.
I can't tell if he's joking or just misread in the heat of the moment and persists in believing the misreading.
The "winking" emoticon
was intended to be "hey I'm joking" - but that's been missed many times before.
I think we're getting waaay off topic here and diving yet again far too far into the weeds of a single line in a post that was indeed meant as a joke and has little or nothing to do with the context of the original post.
Sigh - where is doodler when I need someone who gets my jokes .....
At least some people laughed at my "what's brown and sticky" joke ....
darknes - I quite liked the Dr. Seuss quote which is new to me what book is it from?
It's from "Oh, The Places Youll Go"
From the poor window I've had to observe her from I have had a lot of concerns about her.
I think this is what everyone is saying. You seem to be metaphorically staring through that window. At some point, you need to ACTUALLY not care what W is doing - step away from the window. Right now, Im hearing the words, but it doesnt actually seem like it's true.
And yes, it's OK to be concerned. I remain concerned for my ex, and we've been divorced for some time now. Im still highly skeptical that there is long term happiness in that relationship, but, that doesnt really impact me one way or another at the moment.
The woman I left knew that she was loved and that there was someone who cared deeply for her that would continue to love her no matter what.
This is ok, I guess. But as I tried to say earlier (maybe not so clearly?) is that I dont think this helps you get towards your goal of reconciling.
not do things that would cause her stress such as blocking her from my social media
I know you arent going to listen or do this, and thats fine. Ill drop it. But the unfriending her isnt to punish her. It's for you. You get so wrapped up in who likes what and who watches what and who isnt doing what, that it's not healthy for you. You may be worried about W, but everyone here is worried about YOU.
I guess my question is, you took your ring off, so you must be feeling some kind of break in your relationship. That seems like a big step for you in your evolution towards an independent AndrewP. It's incredibly bizarre to me that you are remaining SnapChat friends but youre not wearing your wedding ring anymore. I may be completely wrong, but to me, it feels like you took your ring off because she did, but you dont want to unfriend her so that you can keep that little bit of a window into her goings-on. Again, just my opinion. Ill leave it at that.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this advice as well. You are in no position to be getting a girlfriend. I think the bigger picture wasnt that you get a girlfriend, exactly, it's that you shouldnt make it so crystal clear to your W that you arent even considering or investigating that possibility. I think saying things like "right now, that isnt my focus" is a lot better than "theres nobody out there interested in me."
over-analyze and criticize
I do apologize if you feel over-analyzed and criticized. I know Im not good at patting people on the back for jobs well done off the screen, so it's just as difficult for me on here. Sometimes, we just want to help so much that Im sure it can sometimes feel overbearing to the recipient.
Keep on, keeping on AP. We are all rooting for you, even if we dont always know how to express it so clearly.
darknes - Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
I actually don't have any good answers to your questions about rings / social media. Sorry. Words don't cover the complex feelings involved. I think I'm in a reasonably healthy place at the moment though.
I did rewrite about 4 times some responses to the concerns that people raised about a single sentence that was perhaps over-analyzed and does not represent the possibly 3 sentences of conversation out of 2 hours.
We did talk about me moving on to a new R and she said that "she wouldn't blame me". I told her that there was no line of replacements.
I don't really have much to say here other than that W was left with the knowledge that while I wasn't actively looking for someone new that the possibility that someone new could show up was there. If something were to happen at some time with some person who isn't W, I wanted it to not be a shock to her that I hadn't stood holding the door open. Again, I don't want to get into digging into this too much. It's taken a huge amount of space ever since I mentioned that a pretty girl who sold me roses was kind to me with me then being whacked repeatedly with 2X4s for considering the possibilities on this forum. It's going to be a long dark winter for me and the cats though and I fully expect to continue to build a good life for myself alone. I tend to use self-deprecating humour hence the "no line of replacements". There is no purpose in telling her about all the people that have assured me that I'll find someone new and who have offered to help expedite that process.
Hi A.P.,
Sounds like you are doing the best you can. Take care of yourself as it gets colder and darker... Holy S it's already December!!!
Oh for the love of... What is it about people from Canada and those who want to move there being stubborn as h@ll? I'm kidding, well partly.
To be beyond clear here, I was NOT in any way shape or form suggesting you get a girlfriend. Did you see me say that at all or even hint at it? As ginger and others clearly saw, I was only providing an example. I think you knew that too but didn't want to argue or defend the other things I said so you set that up, twist it around as if to then be able to brush off everything else - as in, see, this guy is giving bad advice.
You keep saying how you feel, you feel this and feel that. Well it's your funeral or your possible D. The concepts here are rather clear and if you don't want to follow them, then what's the point? What many of us in this h@ll "feel" is wrong and the exact opposite of what we should do. We FEEL we should chase or FEEL we should say ILY or FEEL we should do any number of things that will actually move us further away from your goal. A large number of people are pointing out things to you. You can continue to follow your feelings or you can do what will give you the best chance at keeping you M. These are often not one and the same.
Mostly I just want to be clear, I do not suggest you get a GF for a year post D. I do suggest you grow a set and be the MAN your W would be a fool to divorce. If you really think that man is the plan B in the corner saying, do whatever you want and I'll be right hear waiting for you with an open schedule, then keep doing what you're doing. If not, we are NOT the enemy here. We all want you to succeed. We want the best for you. But you have to start considering maybe, just maybe what you're doing is not in your best interest.
I just want to say I fully agree with Don.
I think he suggested Sandi stopping by because she was a WAW. I, unfortunately, have the inside of the minds of WAW who have affairs myself. Not me personally, but those that are very close to me. I have every detail you could imagine, what is going through their head, how they wish their LBS would stop acting, and what they WOULD do. When they told me all of this stuff, I was like "wow, DB was so on point!"
We have nothing but the best interest of your M at heart.
From being on these boards for almost 9 years, one thing is for sure. Not one WAS wants to walk right back into the door to the same person or M. And it's not meant to be an insult. What my ex did to me was cruel. And I think I was a good wife for the most part doing the best with what I had. But I can tell you for sure, if he was ever going to walk back in that door, he wasn't walking back to the same wife he left. I knew that. And I wasn't having the same husband that left me. And that doesn't mean you are "unattractive" or "unlovable", it just means we are dynamic people who should explore other parts of ourselves.
Look, I know you don't like to hear what I have to say. After 9 years, to be honest, my energy to just validate isn't there anymore. I want to HELP. I also know that you feel like I must not understand something or I must be missing something. But I will tell you, if I sat between the two of you in your two hour conversation taking detailed notes. My advice to you would not change.
I am sorry if you ever felt attacked by me, or less than. Never, ever my intention and never a reason why I would take time out of my day to post.
Ginger1, I believe that we all haven't necessarily learned the tough love approach...I'm working on it. Most of us are the fixers that have used a soft, forgiving, loving approach, but that has obviously not worked up until now...at least in my situation. Thanks for your hard-reality approach. Please hit me up on my situation if you see me wavering. I definitely need the 2x4 every now and again. AndrewP, CaliGuy, Vapo, Surfer, Job and more have all come by with their opinions also, but it is nice to hear from someone with incite from a WAS's POV.
Ginger - I didn't feel you attacked. Just stopping by to say 'Sup.
Can we all now please please please just get back to our regularly scheduled campfire?
Nothing to see here .... move along please. If you don't want to post, don't. If you don't want to read, don't. If you want to post, feel free - it's an open forum but don't expect me to take everything that everyone says as a script for how I need to live my life and don't be offended when I disagree. If you have a reasoned argument I'm open to it but don't expect me to just take your word. We're all adults here - I hope. Drat - now I've offended people again
Sheesh - already on page 6 of this thread much of which now has pretty much nothing to do with my sitch.
I had some things I was going to mention - some past wisdoms that people had been kind enough to share that I thought might be relevant that might have been worthy of a discussion but I'll just go read it to myself. People are seeming to be quite easily offended right now. I wasn't attacking ANYBODY - I just rejected Don's perceived suggestion that I get a NG to manipulate my W. Two pages later we have nothing but a p!ssing match.
Sigh.
Hey Andrew
I am not trying to pick a fight and actually think or hope that your comments above was not directed at me.
I did want to point out a few things...
1) You do not have to defend yourself.
2) You do not have to use the tone that you are using.
At the end of day, if you don't agree with someone - just ignore them or it. Really. No need to get upset and lash out.
When/IF you are comfortable with the path, response or action you've choosen for any given set of circumstances - then YOU should not feel the need to defend it. Period. It really does not matter. I've always said, if you (or anyone else for that matter) is comfortable with who they are or what they have choose to do - then screw those that do not agree with them.
FWIW, I am sorry that the comments have upset you. I hope you have a great weekend planned.
Just my 2 cents.
Hi Andrew,
I did post a response to you a couple of days ago but it hasn't shown up
It was along the lines of that Its all very well having a script in your head but very different when you meet in reality.
I have fantasy discussions in my head all the time about how I will react and what to say when we eventually see each other again.
But, no doubt it will be completely different to what I imagine it!
I think it's easy to offend and be offended by the written word as we can't hear the intonations in each other's voices.
I think you did very well and would love to here the shared wisdoms, even if you do so over on my thread.
eric - Welcome back. I hope you had a good few weeks away from all this in the real world.
Woah. I see not a pissing match anywhere. Only people showing compassion who are trying to help. I also see some apologies from people who said they are sorry if they upset you in the process of helping.
I can't see anyone who has said they are offended by you.
But your perception is your perception. You are very clearly very sensitive right now...
Again, sorry if my attempt at help has upset you so.
(((((moving along and backing away)))))
don't expect me to take everything that everyone says as a script for how I need to live my life
Ultimately, you get to choose how to live your own life. We're all just words on a screen to you offering advice or support or whatever else may pop up. Frankly, it's easy to give advice; especially when the results dont impact me. If you heed my advice and it backfires, theres no skin off of my back, but you have to live it.
That said, the people here tend to have been down your road or at least seen countless others go that way. There is a lot of incredible information available here and in the books to really get your life going again after a cataclysmic event.
Something that Id recommend you really consider.
On the one hand, I think it is incredibly noble and honorable to continue to live your life in the fashion that you are. To continue to love your W "no matter what" and to "keep the door open" for her while being treated as you are is an incredibly difficult emotional task. The problem is, (and this is what I think Don, Ginger, and Rose were trying to say), is that by making those things clear to your WIFE, it gives her no incentive to change her behavior. I think it's very similar to your son actually, because mom and dad are there to pay his rent for him, it diminishes the drive to go out and find a job, because there is no urgency.
Heres the real problem though. This isnt an act you can just put on for your W. Going into a discussion like this and 'pretending' to be accepting and completely 'faking it' arent going to change much either. As Don said, usually, it isnt until the LBS really believes it and starts living it in front of and away from the WS that theres really any movement. Im by no means suggesting you run out and find a new girl today, but I am suggesting that the track you are on is not one that will draw W closer
I continue to wish you the best
Hi Andrew - golly, looks like this thread has been busy whilst I've been gone.
I think the advice is simple really. It was a reasonably positive interaction. However, there are some lessons to be learned about 'looking like plan B' and so on....
I think everyone is in agreement that a girlfriend isn't really on the cards just now.
Life is all about plan B they say. And the task in hand is to make plan B as full and rewarding a life as you can, given all circumstances. Time (since S and on this forum) have taught me that the best plan is to take XH out of the equation. His life is his and mine is mine. So I live my life as I so choose - single at the moment, but in time who knows?
So, do leave her be and back to business as usual I say. Make plans just for you and enjoy doing some new things. I would also love to see you interacting with new people in whatever pursuits you enjoy. But I only say that because I have found it to be so beneficial.
Hope you have a lovely weekend Andrew :-)
AHA - found the most important one.
Shut up.
So about that pride thing.
Here is my horrible secret.
Cavet first.
I was going to be a better person no matter the outcome of this. I knew it. Even if she didn't come out of her MLC...I would be great.
Here is the horrible pride part.
I had a saying I used often. I'm not certain if I am going to say it 100% correctly.
Whether it is a 1 in 100 chance of saving your marriage or a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of saving your marriage it doesn't matter the end number, what matters is the first number.
Be the 1.
My sin was knowing that I would be the 1. That was my pride.
Let it be yours.
a lot of what is keeping me on this path is duty and pride
That's not a bad reason, to keep you going when you don't think you can. Use up anything you can as fuel to keep standing as long as you can. Your goal is to outlast her, almost everything can burn to keep that fire going.
Duty has long been burned up since this was written. I still have lots of pride but it's fueling
me more than my
standing. I still strongly believe that of all the choices that may be in front of her that coming back to
me is still her 1 best choice. I do struggle with what my own best choice is. I'm not sure I know. Meeting over coffee added some love and compassion to the wood pile though - let's see how long and strong that burns for. If I keep the hope damper mostly closed it should burn for a fair while. (Apologies to those without a history of wood stoves - wish I had one now IRL)
I'd been waffling about asking here if I should get W a Christmas gift or not. The usual answer is no but I suspect - without knowing - that W is perhaps at least currently out of replay and may be looking around for familiar things. According to what she said she'll be alone this Christmas because her sister that she might have spent time with just had a heart attack (recovering slowly - I asked for W to pass on best wishes). She believes that S22 is currently avoiding her since he won't respond to any of her queries about his plans. I sent S22 a text this morning suggesting that if he hadn't thought of a gift that he get the one I was thinking of - a spa day with mani-pedi - just the thing I would think for someone who is depressed and one of W's previous favourite things. I noticed that she'd let her nails go a bit which never used to happen - they were always a great source of pride to her. At least she is contacting S22 and D24 pretty much daily now and they always brighten my day and hopefully her's. She's also been chatting back and forth occasionally with SIL2 (which I didn't know). She gave me some nice compliments on how the outside of the house looks too. Too bad that the re-connection stages are "guidelines" and not actual rules. I sent a thank you note to SIL2 and then when SIL1 suggested independently that she reach out more to W and that she already had commented on a Facebook post I asked them to treat her like a "scared squirrel" and keep giving her lots of space. They agreed.
I do hope that W follows through on her seeking for therapy. She mentioned that she was going to go to try to get into the same clinic that I was at. I told her who the IC was that I had dealt with and said that the IC had suggested that she "not" see W because her opinions would be coloured. We had a bit of a laugh over that. There are other therapists at the clinic though who wouldn't be biased.
eric - The weekend should be good as well as busy. I'm not sure I'll be able to fit in a hike but will try. The first weekend of the month is the "clean the house" weekend where I go from top to bottom starting with duster and ending with scrub brush. The village Christmas parade is also on Sunday and I usually park the car at the end of the drive, record the parade on the dashcam and then post to Facebook so that S22/D24 and all the other ex patriots can see it. I may also take myself out for breakfast on Sunday. That used to be something that W and I would do every week and it was a key part of our regular bonding. W mentioned during our talk that she doesn't go out for breakfast any more but spends it alone (she made a
lot of references to being alone). job would jump up and whack me with a 2X4 shaped like a frying pan if I followed through on my thought of calling her up and inviting her out this weekend. I will be also trying to get to sending out at least the bulk of my Christmas cards including ones to W's family.
PS - Just found the other quote.
it takes b@lls the size of Texas to look at our LBSs and admit we were wrong - all wrong- and to ask your forgiveness when it is all we can do to stand upright in the face of the realization of what we have done.
This is the quote that made me so very proud of my W this week. I can barely comprehend the amount of courage that it took for her to ask me out for coffee and then to actually show up. I hope she was as pleased as I was with the outcome.
Take care everyone and enjoy the scenery here in the woods.
I can barely comprehend the amount of courage that it took for her to ask me out for coffee and then to actually show up. I hope she was as pleased as I was with the outcome.
I think this is the disconnect between your view and the view of most of the rest of the folks commenting on your thread.
You see this coffee as a step towards reconciling. I think the rest of us see it as a temperature check - where she came to see what youre up to, and saw no risk in losing you; letting her keep all of the power in the relationship to do as she pleases.
Andrew ....
Darknes is on point here...
Ok, not to be Donald Downer here but .. pump the brakes a bit. Please for your sake .... revisit the No Expectation lessons that are preached and scattered about on this forum. (Brace for a 2x4) Replay does not end that fast, rather than "W is perhaps at least currently out of replay" I would argue she is temp/anchor checking. Coffee as nice as it may be ... could very well be her making sure you are just where she left you, sometimes you have to go through a few of those and accept them for what they are, an over priced cup of bean juice and hopefully a pleasant chance to show her you are not all bad, gives her something to think about for .4 seconds before the fog settles back in and she wanders about a bit more.
You are wanting reconciliation, totally get that, and you are also looking for anything to fuel your bus to outlast her crisis ... that's fine too ... stay center, stay grounded, rise above your own expectations and desires and try to see things for what they are. Keep your focus internal and continue to work, you will need that strength later.
MLC takes time, Replay lasts far longer than any of us would like as in my opinion this is the one stage that seems to cause the LBS the most damage. I too was guilty of taking a simple hug with her toes on mine as the "OMG She is waking up" moment, was to blind to notice the anchor I had on my foot.
Re-connection is a slow moving turtle, alot of it you will not always see, and she may very well not reconnect with everyone, its not like the 12 step where you contact everyone you hurt, they do often realize there are a few burned bridges they can not/do not have the ability to repair.
Please know I am not trying to take the wind from your sails here, I just know the rough waters ahead of you and want to make sure you have the hatches locked down and avoid taking on water.
Andrew,
Your wife is not out of replay. She's hit a bump in the road because the OM is not in the picture right now. She's wanting contact because he's gone at the moment. I know you are really hoping that she's waking up, but I don't see that from where I'm sitting. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
Having a coffee w/your wife is not a step towards reconciliation. Your wife isn't even baked up yet. She's still very raw and fragile and hasn't done any of the hard, necessary work to heal herself. Please, take what I'm saying and reflect on this...she's only touching base w/you now because of the holidays and the absence of the OM. If she is taking more steps after the holidays, then I might change my tune...but right now...replay is still in action and she's still suffering from depression.
Keep those expectations at zero and please be mindful that some of them do come out to play because of the holidays and then disappear again.
Andrew, you need to develop a tougher skin because you are very sensitive right now. Bottom line, you take what you can use from the postings and leave the rest. The posters have traveled the path and because you are too close to your situation, we can see some things that you need to work on. It's not that they are trying to make you feel uncomfortable or make you upset/angry, but what they are saying is that you need to work on you and stop focusing so much on what she's doing or what the people in your real world think of your situation. You only have two people to answer to and they are: God and yourself. If you are happy w/the way you are progressing, then so be it...but when you come here and post, we are not going to sugar coat things because this would be very wrong and would not help you. Please be mindful of the fact that we are all trying to help you the best way that we can and that is by being honest w/our responses.
Take care.
CaliGuy - You are very likely right on the money here. Even though his delivery method often causes me blunt force trauma darknes has been right so many times that I take what he writes quite seriously
- Don't tell him though - it might go to his head....
Please know I am not trying to take the wind from your sails here, I just know the rough waters ahead of you and want to make sure you have the hatches locked down and avoid taking on water.
I appreciate that. I'll trim the headsails and put out the storm trysail and keep on my original course but prepare for heavy weather. Apologies for anyone who isn't a sailor out there.
job has been very good and delivering the "no expectations" message to me and to a lot of others here and the "believe nothing they say and only half what they do" is something that I keep quite firmly in mind. Until I know that W is accepting help from an IC and starts talking to me more like a human being than a scared squirrel this is indeed all just so much unicorn fart.
I've done a fair bit of reading mostly here but a bit in other places about MLC and how it progresses, not as much as some people but a fair bit. I read perhaps everything that job has written in the last couple of years as well. I miss Jack - he had a deep insight and could communicate it to me in a way that resonated. He'd probably repeat just what you said though CaliGuy. Perhaps even that quote I pulled.
So - I wonder what the lady who sells me my roses is doing on Sunday afternoon when the parade is on (ducking to dodge the incoming lumber
)
Your wife is not out of replay.
job - Thank you so much for stopping by and posting that. I think I managed to channel you a bit in my response to CaliGuy.
Sticking (mostly) to the original plan then. The only adjustment is something that I don't believe that I had posted here before. I had been planning on meeting with my L in January to begin the D process. I'm going to put that aside for the present.
I'm glad you have decided to postpone the meeting w/your lawyer. I honestly do not think you are ready to pull the plug on your marriage. I suggest you dig deeper for patience and know that your wife has a ways to go in the healing process.
You will know when you are ready to give up...but it's not today. As I always say "when in doubt, do nothing". Sit quietly and the answers will come. You just have to be patient and do not attempt to rush the process.
Andrew
Its good I think you took the message as intended.
Just to plant a seed, there is some common belief that you really can not trust anything for about 3 years post BD.... yeah ... 3, THREE, TRES flipping years. Of course my MLCr was different and with my help she was waking up in record time about 1 1/2 years post BD. (We need sarcasm font here) She seemed to have all the signs I read here, remorse, transparency, renewed commitment to the M, blah blah blah .... a few here told me she wasn't baked yet, and I 25% agreed but wanted her 'home' so I figured .. fine she isn't baked... but she can finish baking at home while I watch. I will tell you that was one epic year of watching that oven and the bread never rose. She was not done, still in replay and was an epic setback of catastrophic proportions. I learned the pain of the "Touch and Go" and after almost a year it was me who moved out, no intention of waking her up, I decided to allow her to walk the path she needed to... without my help.
So lets touch on the divorce thing, my advice... my approach. Drop the idea.
You aren't ready .... its simply a bullet you think will land in her heart and wake her up .... it will not. My stance was , if she wants D, its all hers .. all of it, she files, does the leg work, all that... she also gets all the credit for it, I will not be blamed for that one, her D not mine.
My life would be no different divorced, as it is now separated so why push it, not like I was going to Vegas to marry a stripper any time soon, so for me there was no need to pull the trigger on something that you can not just take back. I still have things I am working on and my 'married' state has zero influence on what I do.
Just popped in to give you a good old fashioned hug (((Andrew))) and some freshly baked cookies...
AHA - found the most important one.
Shut up.
My sin was knowing that I would be the 1. That was my pride.
Let it be yours.
a lot of what is keeping me on this path is duty and pride
That's not a bad reason, to keep you going when you don't think you can. Use up anything you can as fuel to keep standing as long as you can. Your goal is to outlast her, almost everything can burn to keep that fire going.
What Jeff didn't tell you is that his wife didn't even think about coming back until he was done.
I mean DONE.
D
O
N
E
It's all back there in his posts. If they survived the purge...
Just food for thought.
Thanks everyone - especially Coly23 for the cookies and hug. How did you know that peanut butter was my favourite?
I've been doing a lot of hard thinking over the last few days and will continue to do so. I also wrote a long letter to a friend who was a huge help in the beginning until I burned her out. She had texted me a picture of her Christmas tree and in my reply I mentioned meeting with W and then "of course" she insisted on knowing what happened. As always, writing helped me to gel my own thoughts.
CaliGuy - I agree with you. One of the metaphors that I am ever so grateful to job for is "baking". It is so very apt. When I saw my W I indeed saw someone who was still bubbling away, perhaps even more lost and confused than she was before. Unlike a good soup that needs occasional stirring, but more like a souffle I agree that she needs to be left alone by me especially. One of my big fears that I expressed many many threads ago was "how do I know" and "how do I help" knowing out that when (if) she comes back that she will be incredibly fragile. I am in some ways fortunate that she is still close geographically and that financially we are reasonably well off and can certainly afford to maintain the 3 households (W, S22 and "home") even if it is a bit of a stretch and some luxuries won't be had.
I tell myself what others have told me that this was indeed a single visit over a single cup of coffee and that it could very possibly be the last time I see her for some time if ever. She has I hope seen the lighthouse and I hope believes that it will continue to stand. I would like to ask though that my visitors continue to watch over me because I know that I will need a lot of propping up as this goes along. I honestly don't think I can do this alone and was indeed thinking hard about putting a "for rent" sign on the light.
I've been leaving her alone since coffee with the exception of sending her over the name of an IC that my own IC had recommended and mentioning that it was covered by our insurance. I was very careful to word the note so that it was in no way a push for her to get help, just passing information that "might" be useful. Perhaps a mistake? I got a "thank you" back. I have also noticed a continuing change in tone on her Facebook postings and some more obvious interaction between her and SIL2 which I've stayed out of. Since I know that she's watching me I've kept my own content reasonably up-beat.
I do have a decision to make that I would like an opinion on. We currently share an internet based book-keeping system. Plan A which was what I told her a couple of weeks ago was for me to stop updating our now somewhat messed up joint budget. I had also been intending on removing her access to see our household bills online - water, hydro, phone - nothing to do with her current life. I had not specifically mentioned this but it could have reasonably been implied. I'm thinking now to leave her accesses in place and just replace the current joint online budget with the new solo budget. To me, it really makes no difference if she knows how much I've spent on toilet paper.
To use a metaphor as I often do, do I close the curtains on the lighthouse so that she can't easily see what is going on, or do I leave them open. I've been chastised for seeming to be "too easy" go get back to but I've also been advised by people here that I trust to avoid doing things that might agitate her. Even though I do recognize that the W I knew isn't the person that I am dealing with, the W "that was" would have been highly offended by me unilaterally cutting her off from anything especially if I didn't tell her first such as was the case when I took over control of our Netflix account. She told me over coffee that it had sparked a panic in her that she had been "hacked".
Well - time for me to get this cat off my lap, have a shower and get my banking done and then start on the rest of my Saturday errands.
Thank you again.
I do have a decision to make that I would like an opinion on. We currently share an internet based book-keeping system. Plan A which was what I told her a couple of weeks ago was for me to stop updating our now somewhat messed up joint budget. I had also been intending on removing her access to see our household bills online - water, hydro, phone - nothing to do with her current life. I had not specifically mentioned this but it could have reasonably been implied. I'm thinking now to leave her accesses in place and just replace the current joint online budget with the new solo budget. To me, it really makes no difference if she knows how much I've spent on toilet paper.
To use a metaphor as I often do, do I close the curtains on the lighthouse so that she can't easily see what is going on, or do I leave them open. I've been chastised for seeming to be "too easy" go get back to but I've also been advised by people here that I trust to avoid doing things that might agitate her. Even though I do recognize that the W I knew isn't the person that I am dealing with, the W "that was" would have been highly offended by me unilaterally cutting her off from anything especially if I didn't tell her first such as was the case when I took over control of our Netflix account. She told me over coffee that it had sparked a panic in her that she had been "hacked".
Hi Andrew,
I would stick with what you told her already that you were going to do in terms of the budget.
In terms of part 2 of the question, might have been, could have been, might not have been, possibly could have been..."reasonably implied". Get the point? This is what gets all of us in trouble from time to time. You honestly have no idea if she took it as implied or not, you just don't. If you want to cut her off from all that stuff, then just tell her and do it, if not, then don't. Personally, I don't think this matters much, but you should choose based on what the heck you want to do and not worry about offending her.
Journaling.
A very busy day - lots of things to do especially as I do a big clean at the start of each month. During our visit I had told W of my plans to stop using the big freezer and to throw out the frozen fruit etc that had come to our house from her parent's when they went into the nursing home. W was OK with that so one big job is out of the way (I would have done it anyway). There's still too much to put into the fridge freezer so I put a couple of large buckets of water into the freezer to give it something to work on while the other stuff is eaten down - hopefully by the New Year.
I've been listening to Christmas carols all day and got the tree up. I chose to put the special ornament that we have as an "us" ornament. Originally I wasn't going to but Wednesday has helped patch the foundation of the lighthouse / cabin. I sent a bunch of SnapChat pictures to S22/D24 carefully NOT posting them to my story where W would see them. No sense in subjecting her to that pain / pursuit. It would just be cruel to knowingly rub her nose in what she has left behind.
Lately I've been avoiding "correcting" visitors to the cabin when they seem to mis-interpret what I posted. It rarely goes well. I'm going to make a minor exception to that here. On one hand I looked at coffee on Wednesday as a significant event that could perhaps lead to reconciliation especially since I think it went rather well. job had done a very good job as always of keeping my expectations in check before I went. I hope she realizes how very much I value her input and calm voice. I defer to job and Caliguy on their opinion that it was just a temp check though and have lowered my expectations appropriately. The quote from AmyC was perhaps the wrong one to pick since it implied that I thought that a reconciliation was imminent but it did in part match my feelings about courage. I
am indeed very proud of my W for initiating the meeting. Having done a lot of reading as well as knowing how difficult it was historically is for W to face tough issues it must have indeed taken all of her reserves of courage to initiate that meeting which could have gone in any of several directions, many of them "bad" for one side or the other. I've always been proud of W for many things and I believe she knows that even if it has been an occasional source of embarrassment for her. We perhaps at times get so wrapped up in ourselves that we lose sight of what our spouse is going through. Even though W has hurt me quite badly and may indeed may never come back or I may move on she was and I hope still is a woman who has many things to admire about.
When I was out for my errands and doing some monthly banking for S22 the teller and I were chatting about Christmas and I commented that I had challenges wrapping presents but managed OK. She jokingly suggested that I just have W do it (small towns - everybody knows everybody) and I replied that W has been gone for months. A slight look of shock and an apology came back. I responded "it is what it is - I hope you have a great day" and continued on with mine. It's freeing in many ways to not have to hide / lie any more.
For dinner tonight "archaeological steak". I found a T-Bone in the big freezer of uncertain vintage so will broil it up with some water and have potatoes and vegetables to go with it. It's the end of the steaks now I believe. I'm trying to decide on a movie or a book for later. For Sunday I have to decide on if I want to take more things out of the freezer and perhaps make a big pot of beef soup. That might be nice even if there will be weeks worth of left-overs.
I was doing a search for some old postings by AmyC to perhaps share with a new visitor and stumbled on this where Jack_Three_Beans is talking about AmyC and the MLC process. Interesting reading. I'm currently only a couple of pages in.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=984732&page=1I hope you all like the new thread name. It resonates with me right now. The woods are indeed dark and scary and a lit window is welcome both to those inside warming themselves by the fire and for any weary travelers who may be looking for succor.
Hey Andrew, I would just leave W's access to the on-line budget as it is. I can't see it would make a lot of difference to her and as you say it is just household stuff that shows up in there. IDK, maybe you could start purchasing some different things to get her curiosity going!!
As you know, when I met H for coffee for the first time after going NC for seven weeks, afterwards I spun like an out of control top so I think you have done really well keeping your emotions in check. I think that first meeting after so long is always going to stir up some emotions so getting it out of the way does make it easier for subsequent meet ups.
Your freezer sounds like Mary Poppins' handbag, it just keeps on giving!!!
Have a good rest of your weeekend!
Thanks for the visit Coly23 and the feedback. That's the way I'm leaning right now myself too. For me, part of being a "lighted window" is to keep the curtains open and be completely transparent. That is also who I've always been. I try to balance that with not waving things in front of the window just to get W's attention. If she wants to look in, she can.
I know that the fact that you walked this road before me helped me a lot when I got my first coffee date. I think it helped too that I had already in large part "given up". As job would write "no expectations".
I had a bit of a lol imagining a hat-stand coming out of the freezer - I may have to have another look. That is one of my favourite movies. W's too which is why it was one of the ones that have "left the building"
.
Well - on with my day. I've already been out for a nice breakfast, went for a hike in the woods and now it's time for a nice soak in some bubbles then laundry, ironing, sweeping, vacuuming etc etc. The village parade is this afternoon and I have the car out so that I can capture it on the dashcam and post to Facebook so that S22/D24 - and even perhaps W can watch it.
Thanks again for the visit and the kind words Coly23 - I hope you have a good day too.
Well I don't know what's going on, I've visited here twice and both posts have not shown up, so I'll try again.
I think you did very well in your meeting with W!
And now all of a sudden my post shows straight away?
What's that about? I thought one had to post a hundred times before that happened.
And now all of a sudden my post shows straight away?
What's that about? I thought one had to post a hundred times before that happened.
I think the admins can make a judgement call before 100 posts...
But this has nothing to do with Andrew... back to his camp fire...
I know it has nothing to do with Andrew, I just wanted him to know that I had posted my support of him but they never showed up!
Thanks so much Westo - I appreciate the visit and the support quite a lot. Feel free to come to call any time - I usually have the kettle on for a pot of tea - or occasionally a glass of wine can be had.
Glass of red for me please!
Westo,
It appears that you are still on moderation (as a newbie) to the forum. Because you are on moderation, the Administrator and/or the moderators of this forum have to approve your postings. It has nothing to do with the 100 postings limit as far as I am aware of.
Generally, the moderators have a day or so to approve postings of posters on moderation. I am on the forum periodically during the day and will approve postings very quickly. Today, when I left the forum, there were no postings in the moderation hopper for me to approve. It could be that another moderator saw them and approved them and that's why they suddenly appeared. Please keep in mind that many of the moderators are volunteers and are not here 24/7, but we do attempt to keep things moving along as much as possible when we are here.
I have recommended that you be taken off of moderation. I don't know how quickly that will be done as Virginia is the administrator and will have to approve my request. I ask that you please be patient.
Andrew, I apologize for the hi-jack. Just wanted to clear the air on the posting situation on your thread.
Thank you Job, just was confused as some of my posts don't seem to have been approved.
Back to the woods!
I just checked the hopper and there is absolutely nothing there for approval. Are you sure you hit the submit button for those that are missing? (Not saying you didn't, but I've had missing posts before and it's because I thought I had hit the submit button and I hadn't...duh! My mind is working faster than the old fingers at times.)
Well, I thought I did........😳😳😳
It's always nice to have visitors - especially such pleasant ones. Can I pour you a glass too job?
The village Christmas parade just went by - living on the main street it goes right past the house. It felt slightly odd being out there alone. I'm always struck by the similarity of these events to the grand military reviews that you see. The village and surrounding area musters it's troops and puts on a nice show.
One of the fire-fighters - a person who earlier on crossed the street to avoid me made a point of coming over, giving me a candy cane and shaking my hand. I joked that I must have been a good boy to get a candy and he laughed and said that yes I was. I waved to everyone, shouted out Merry Christmas and although there was sadness that I was there alone I felt glad to be part of such a community.
I parked the car at the end of the drive and used the dashcam to record the parade. It's uploading into Facebook now. However did I manage before that time-waster?
Oh yes - piles of books.
I've changed my mind about dinner - pizza tonight. I have a big pile of dishes from the freezer clean and noticed some in there that I need for the meat-loaf. My ironing isn't done yet either - where does the time go. And here I used to worry about filling my days. I still haven't done the decorating I wanted nor the Christmas cards. I'm still waffling about sending W one and need to decide what to write in some. I'm figuring on "from the P family" as generic and safe.
Wow, your village sounds amazing. We don't have anything like that here.
A few days before Christmas the local fire engine will go around with Santa on the top, raising money for charity but that's as far as it goes.
It's like tumbleweed here!
A.P. the parade sounds fun. I do not think I have ever seen a Christmas parade.
Like you, I'm finding so much that needs to be done around here-- and not trivial stuff either! My days could be endlessly filled with tasks and chores I have put off should I choose to fill them.
The village Christmas parade sounds wonderful. I'm sure it's a wonderful and fun time for all who participate in the parade as well as those who watch it. I'm sure you felt slightly odd being out there alone, but you did it and I think you enjoyed it.
As for the firefighter, he may well have had a lot on his mind earlier, but I'm glad he came back around. I'm sure the dashcam caught everything and what a way to remember this parade.
As for other things being left undone...don't worry about it. Tomorrow is another day and trust me, the dust bunnies, the dishes and the ironing will still be there tomorrow. As for the Christmas cards, you have plenty of time to get them addressed and in the mail. I have faith in you and know that you'll get everything done and be back on track in no time...but for now, take time and stop to smell the roses for a bit. Life is far too short not to enjoy the little things in life.
Thanks everyone.
job - I did indeed stop just now and smell the rose on my desk. It was lovely. I think that these commercial long-stem roses have less scent than the "garden variety" ones.
I had some back-and-forth messages with the lady who runs the bake shop. I had joked about having my bubble-bath today and sent her a picture of the tub full of bubbles with the fresh jam tart I got from her waiting beside. PS - flaky pastries and bubble baths are not an ideal combination but as the lady mentioned to me if the jam spills it's an easy clean-up.
I was just thinking as I wrote this that one thing that this journey has done for me is to better connect me with the world around me. I may not be a GAL poster child but my life is pretty darned good. Now to finish the absolutely necessary ironing, get my lunch made for tomorrow and see what dishes I can clear off. For some reason I have a feeling that W will stop by tomorrow while I'm out to pick up her coats (a lovely fluffy snow started falling just as the parade ended) and I want the house to look good - if not for her - definitely for me.
Just so Im clear, you went out of your way to send an email to W to say you are changing the accounting structure, And now that you had coffee with her once, youre going to not do that?
Just so Im clear, you went out of your way to send an email to W to say you are changing the accounting structure, And now that you had coffee with her once, youre going to not do that?
Nope - Still changing the accounting structure. Two changes in my own plans though that she had no knowledge of. I'm going to allow her to see the new books (if she wants to) and I'm not starting the divorce proceedings in January.
Stealing this from another thread - I hope nobody minds but it explains something that was confusing the heck out of me on why W seems to have been watching me so very closely all this time. I'm pasting it here so that I can find it again.
MLCers do not like to lose the string that binds them to you. They like to know that you are right where they left you pre crisis. In your wife's case, she's not happy w/the changes that are happening in her life and yes, she's having to face some of those consequences now, especially w/the holidays right around the corner.
As for her questioning a friend about you, it could be that she's curious because you aren't begging, pleading, etc., but going on w/your life the best way that you can. It also could be that she's trying to find out if you are seeing someone even though you're not. She feels guilty and ashamed of what she's done and continues to do and if you were dating, this would alleviate some of her guilt.
I would remain hopeful, but keep those expectations very, very low. The holiday season tends to bring some of them closer to their families and once the holiday is over...back out there once again.
It's going to take some time for her to wake up, so leave her in the MLC oven for a while longer. You'll know when she's baked because she'll do everything humanly possible to prove to you that she wants to reconcile. She's got a lot of heavy, hard work to do before that happens.
Continue moving forward and keep the focus on you.
I just re-read this posting of Jack's as well
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017I think this will do for a nice log for the fire that will hopefully burn for a while. Time for a break from worrying about W for now I think. Let's see how I do.
Thanks A.P.! two good reads.
My guess is you are too worried about W in the sense you don't want her to crash and burn, to see her suffer needlessly.
But in all of the advice/readings, it seems you have to let her do just that. And if you rush in to help, it's exactly the job baking analogy-- your W won't be baked.
Altair - Thanks for the visit. Yes - the last thing either of us needs is a "half-baked" spouse
A lot of what I've been re-reading is making more and more sense. This is, I believe "needed" suffering. If "I" save her then she won't have built the tool-set she needs to cope with her future life - which may indeed not lead back to me. Even more now I believe that I am indeed her "one best choice" although I freely admit between the two of us that up until last Wednesday that my preferred outcome was for her to marry OM and have things end that way. Don't tell anyone though - I've got lots of 2X4s stacked up behind the shed already
One big concern that I have though is the well known "researcher's bias" - Am I only taking in those messages which I agree with? I can see many people nodding their heads quite vigorously.
So - as job would write (how I wish that I could have an evening with her to just chat and get my thoughts properly sorted out - perhaps MWD has a billing rate for her?), dig deep for patience, make sure the the log pile is well stacked with some cords of wood and live my life as best as I can.
A radio program that I used to quite enjoy - The Dead Dog Comedy Hour - had a closing tag line that I think I had in my signature for a while that is perhaps apt - Stay Calm. Be Brave. Wait For The Signs.
Andrew
So the "needed" suffering .... for you or her?
I know for a fact, I would have NEVER changed if I was not confronted with this MLC tornado that ripped through my life. I started changing ... sure at first it was things she complained about (in order to save the M), then it simply became more about changes I felt I needed ... over time everything became less and less about her, and more and more about me.
The one thing I learned not only in my case, my MLCrs, but in others is no true change happens until that person has suffered enough, enough to the point they no longer want to hurt in the way they are hurting and rather than focus externally (which was simply a quick fix/distraction) they begin to focus internally and make the necessary changes required.
This little blip from a Rabi on you tube I stumbled across put it nicely, and I thought you may want to add it to your collection of musings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK0bB9MOxF0
Thanks for that link Cali........great food for thought there.
CaliGuy - Thanks for the visit.
So the "needed" suffering .... for you or her?
What I wrote was in her context - like the lobster in your link, she has had to go to a safe place and grow.
Has my own suffering been "needed"? The jury is still out on that. I certainly have changed in some ways as I've blundered around the woods bumping into random trees. I've learned and perhaps unlearned as well. Would I have been "fine" if W had never gone into a MLC and torn us apart? I think so, but I would have been a different man than the one that is taking shape under my own rock. I am indeed still a work in progress and probably will always be because none of us are a finished work. I do look at the man in the mirror and quite like him though and to me, that's the most important thing. I like to believe that W will like him as well when she gets a chance to meet him.
Just as an aside - and a minor LOL to me - when we met for coffee W had also purchased a cookie. Oatmeal and raisin - "your favourite" she said when she offered to share. I declined and never bothered to mention that she was wrong and that I had always adored the peanut butter cookies she used to make. Never really been a fan of oatmeal cookies.
Spinning a bit today. Forgive me and ignore as appropriate please. No real content of consequence - just rambling.
Yesterday I was picking up a gift for S22 and browsed a bit through the card section. A card with this quote on it jumped out at me but I left it on the shelf.
Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.
Both W and I are big fans - me perhaps more than her though. I'm thinking I may get it as a Christmas card for her but not send it. Just to have it in case we meet again before Christmas and write in it "I believe in you". Perhaps too much pursuit? I've always believed in her and her strength even when she has doubted it herself and have been her biggest cheerleader in any of the challenges she's undertaken whether it was cross-country endurance races or arranging her budget to move away from me.
I'm getting worried about S22 - he's been blowing me off for the last couple of weeks, not responding to my messages and when I called him yesterday afternoon he said "not a good time" - he did sound out of breath though so perhaps I interrupted something. W did mention that she hadn't told him about OM, perhaps wondering if I had (?) - which I haven't. He does however have a lot of friends from high-school who are still in the area and rumours could have reached him. I'm figuring if he asks directly that I will say that it's his Mother's story to tell, not mine and that I still love her very much regardless of what may have gone on. I'd asked him a while ago to dinner this coming Friday. I'm going to give him a couple of more days to respond without pushing him. He does generally live like a hermit (always has) observing the world from his cave, rarely emerging. According to the Life360 app he's not left his apartment for a while either. He does have 2 room-mates that he is good friends with so he's got a close support structure. I checked with D24 and she's not heard from him recently either but again that's not unusual. I didn't press when W and I were talking last week but it seemed that she's not been hearing from him either. She said that she texts him now each morning and evening and then nags if he doesn't respond. Given how closely she watches me as well, she could perhaps use a few lessons about detaching and pursuit / distancing. S22 will absolutely duck back into his cave whenever he's pursued - it's a trait that both he and W have always had. I'm reluctant to bother W about this to see if perhaps she's heard from him - I can deal with this on my own at this point.
A running joke here at work is that I will often ignore the first frantic message from some people and then when 20 minutes later they solve their own problems I will jokingly write back that my "if I ignore problems that they tend to sort themselves out" system continues to work quite well. Somewhat of a life lesson here. There's an apple on the tree just by our driveway too that has refused to fall. I take a SnapChat picture of it every few days or if it is looking particularly photogenic and caption it "still hanging on". I may have to stop that now that W knows that I know that she's watching those (too much meta there ...)
Since Wednesday W has gone even more quiet on social media. She "liked and shared" a post that I had already liked posted by one of my cousins about believing in yourself a day or so ago and that was pretty much the last activity she's done. She seems to only be interacting with my relatives these days and occasionally our neighbours. I've not seen much activity with most of her old enabling friends for many months and the few that hung on for a while don't seem to be around either now. Could just be a coincidence. Other than a big bump up when W was at the height of the "everything is wonderful" loop she historically rarely interacted with her own relatives on Facebook and then it was only with her sister and niece both of whom are very proud of their own infidelities and I expect were some of the fire-starters of W's own.
She's also not shown up to get any of her stuff still. I put some Christmas decorations that she likes that were from her grandmother in the front porch. We would never put them up becase the cats found them too interesting. Her dog has short stumpy legs so as long as they are more than 2 feet off the ground they should be safe
Even though she knows my schedule she may be waiting until her day off on Thursday to come by. Or she may not come by at all. There's no way to tell. My mind-reading turban came apart in the wash quite some time ago. Not my monkeys. I feel more the geographer than the explorer in that land these days (Hi CT1118 if you are still here!).
I also heard today that I didn't the job that I had interviewed for in summer - right on move-out day in fact. It would have meant a much improved quality of life, slightly more money but fewer professional challenges. Feeling a bit down about that. It's a big place though and opportunities come up regularly so I'll just keep my eyes open. In the mean-time I'm doing "much" better at work, starting to produce quality results in a more timely fashion. The company, while struggling should be OK. We just had a purge of a number of our people in a couple of the different business units. I believe myself to be safe - but you never know.
I checked the number of posts on this thread and am just about to pop over to the "please start a new thread" limit. I think this is a good way to end off this thread. Sad, tired, worried but moving forward into the unknown.
Beating job to the punch with post #100 on this thread.
Time to settle back and get comfortable. The bicycle is put away, the camp has been torn down and a snug cabin built and I'm running out of metaphors. I may be in these woods for a while. I was looking for a path out but sometimes you end up where you need to be and can stop running.
New thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2719931&#Post2719931