Well - I think that this is the first time I've started a new thread without a completely new title. The reason being - the phantom cyclist is still not to be heard from. To use the old commedian's gag "I know you're out there - I can hear you breathing" she is out there but I have no clue at all as to what is going on.
Links to past threads. A lot of rambling nonsense if you ask me. It all seemed so very important at the time. There are some good bits in the MLC threads though largely written by other people.
Newcomer Thread 5 - Baking my own cake
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701127&page=1MLC Threads
1 - Am I on the wrong bicycle
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701309&page=12 - The phantom Cyclist
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2704064&page=1First to address the thoughts that Mach1, Spartan and Rose888 have been so kind as to share. I hope you'll forgive me that my response is much shorter than the work you put into your posts.
Was your life together one of Love, or Obligation ??
<snip>
I'm not going to tell you that you are right or wrong. Only you can decide that.
<snip>
What you are feeling probably isn't duty, and it could be love.
Yet it also could be fear...
I haven't read a person here, that hasn't glorified the relationship a bit to justify their stand. At least in the beginning...
Was the love real ?
I'm sure that it was, and maybe still is...
But I would bet, that if you are totally honest with yourself.
The fear of losing her, and the fear of losing the relationship is greater right now...
How much of that is through rose colored glasses ?
<snip>
What is the difference between Love and Obligation ???
Mach1 - thanks for taking the time to post and for asking me to re-examine things. I believe that I can honestly say that what is keeping me standing is indeed the love that I have for W. I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned. Much of the rose has worn off my glasses and I don't have an idealized version of goddess W in my mind. She was and is a very real person with both postive and negative qualities which I've known all along. "She" is more important to me than any of those though. I've been challenged multiple times to think hard and honestly about whether I do want to stay married to her or not and today's answer is yes.
I would like to offer these definitions if I may:
- Obligation - something you feel a need to do whether you are happy about it or not like taking out the garbage or cleaning the catbox. Obligations can also be thrust upon you by others.
- Duty - something that is part of your identity that makes you complete. A stronger form of obligation because you take it willingly on yourself and by being true to your duty you show strength. You can have a duty to things, people or ideals.
- Love - is completly different. Is it chemical, biological? I can't say. Love is a gift you give from yourself to others of devotion, understanding and compassion. Sometimes those others do not accept it and sometimes they do. When they do not you have heartbreak and the need to heal like I'm trying to do now. I'd post 1st Corinthains 13:4-8 here but I'm sure we've all hear them before. Even though I'm only nominally Christian I take those words to heart just like I did on my wedding day.
My fear of losing W was indeed quite extreme but from BD1 I told her honestly that if she chose to leave that I would let her go and that is indeed still true. While I still fear the unknown of forever losing her much of my fear of being alone or of starting fresh with someone else is gone but certainly lots still remains. For now though my love for her keeps me standing while she makes her own choices. What tomorrow will bring? I don't know.
I have so many things I want to throw out here to get you thinking about your sitch differently after reading all 11 pages last night but let's stick with love v. obligation. For me that was one of the biggest hurdles to get past and boy did I fight it. After the bomb I wore rose colored glasses only to find out I also had rose colored contacts on because I just didn't want to figure this one out because it was a major fault of mine.
<snip>
Yeah you'll have feelings for someone but at the end of the day love is a choice. Love is putting someone else's needs before yours no matter what, love is listening to your spouse and supporting them how they need to be supported (with advice, just listening, etc...), love is doing the things they like, love is planning a date night as a surprise instead of watching tv and drinking a few beers. Love is letting them go if that's what they want. Love is a choice, love is not a feeling.
<snip>
So, to ask you again. Did you really love your wife or did you play the role you thought you were supposed to play? Don't feel bad if it's the second because we work with the tools we have.
Going forward how does this definition of love change you and how you act towards others?
Spartan - thanks for the post. You could have almost written 1st Corinthians yourself in modern verse complete with TV watching
I'm glad you didn't drag yourself to the previous threads which were mostly blather
Over the 28 years we were together I will certainly admit that there were times when duty and obligation carried me through when just love wasn't enough. That to me is what makes a marriage work though. For better and for worse aren't just words, they're the reality that couples have to live each and every day.
I will freely admit that I am not a perfect human being and that there are indeed things that I could "improve" about myself. More importantly to me at least though is being comfortable and confident in my own boots and in my own skin. I believe that I am getting there again. That may sound cocky especially for someone who has found themselves here and yes, that's one of my flaws
Interesting. I'm coming to believe that each of us view these threads through the lens of our own situation.
Several of you think the critical issue is about love--what is it, did he ever feel it, etc.
I think the critical issue is being emotionally fused with his W and not having the emotional detachment and self-validation that's necessary for a long-term relationship. Probably because that's one of the key issues in my sitch.
You know what they say: when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Rose888 - I couldn't agree with you more that we each view this through the lens of our own situation. And yes, I was and probably still am emotionally fused with my W. A lot of the codependancy stuff was relatively recent (I believe) and if she ever comes back I hope to be able to not fall into that trap again. I've learned so very much about myself and relationships through this journey.
---------------
Incredibly minor update.
I had my IC session today and it went fairly well. She was glad that some of the self-awareness tools she had given me worked when the darkness of depression hit hard. Mostly exercises to focus on something physical like the feel of the gear shift under my hand and also some breathing to focus on the existence of my body. Mumbo-jumbo perhaps but it works for me. She was also pleased to hear that the tools that Jack (knowing that I'm W's #1 choice) and eric (changing resentment of W for needing to hide her A to protection of the MR) worked for me. She gave me some new homework that I haven't gone through yet. Probably more mumbo-jumbo but those witch doctors were perhaps on to something then. We have both seen a lot of improvement in me since I've started seeing her. Yes, I'm still incredibly fragile but the pieces go back together faster and it takes more most of the time to knock me to pieces. I did talk to her about my concerns about perhaps going into a MLC myself or entering into a new R too soon and she felt that because I was aware of this and do not have a history of taking rash actions that I would probably be fine. I think she was frustrated just like me that I'm stuck on this bike which seems stationary while W tries to sort herself out. Just like everyone here too she encouraged me to go out and experience life.
One the W front there continues to be complete silence. One thing that caught my attention though was that her brother has just checked into a campground very close to us yesterday. This is perfectly reasonable, he and his W are trying the RV lifestyle and there's a golf-course there. Presumably visits with W will also happen. No telling what sort of "advice" she would get this time - more on that below. I did have a bit of a panic when I realized that a second round of stripping the house could well happen. After W moved out we exchanged texts (which I kept) and she agreed that she would need to arrange with me before removing anything else - not sure if that would happen. I expect her brother was behind most of the stripping of antiques and valuables. I thought about locking the house so that W would have to contact me to get in. There was an inner door that we'd just left the key in (long irrelevant story) and I've put that key on my key ring and put the spare one where we've hidden the spare keys for years. It may throw her off a bit but not for long and I've always felt uncomfortable having that key sitting there. I've installed a security system which W knows about that will alert me if she comes into the house and I have a fairly good inventory of what's left after the first round of stripping. To be honest, there's a lot of junk here that I would prefer to see gone still. On top of that legally I cannot deny W access to the marital home and I also don't want to contradict what I've told her that our home remains open to her. Anyways - it's just stuff.
In the realm of "probably a really bad idea" I was thinking of sending a text to W in a couple of weeks saying
"Forever is sometimes done one day at a time. 200 days so far. Please come home". Yeah - she already knows and yeah - bad idea to prod the sleeping giant.
Just as an aside about BIL and W's family since it's buried deep in the past threads. BIL had an EA (he claims not PA) a couple of years ago. His W got upset and started the D process. During mediation he found out that she had a lot of money saved away in her own name and suddenly decided to reconcile. Not a strong basis for that and she watches him like a hawk and he looks nervous a lot of the time. I presume he's a prime candidate to dive back into an A if he thought he could get away with it. Early in our own journey W had talked to him about our R. I found out later from him (he was explaining to me how stupid I was) that he had told her that divorce is perfectly normal, having affairs is fine and that lots of people marry their AP and are perfectly happy. He encouraged her to do whatever made her happy and that I had no say in it at all. W's oldest sister (a great-grandmother at 60) has had and has multiple A even though she and her H never split. Her H came into a lot of money though so ..... She's also officially diagnosed as bi-polar which is a term that my IC used when I referred to MLC. Finally W's father was somewhat of a legend among his coworkers for being wayward. Even in his 80s he's still trying to pick up women. MIL is long suffering and they now spend a lot of time in the nursing home arguing with each other.
Anyway - back to our regularly scheduled tour. Tonight I think I'm going to take myself out for dinner and perhaps have a walk around the village first.
Thanks again everyone both who posted and who have read.
Andrew,
It is pleasant to talk with you and that makes it easy to do so. It doesn't feel like I'm trying to push my head through a brick wall, and I am sure that others would agree. The ability to honestly take stock of yourself is vital to this.
Ok enough unicorns and rainbows.
I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned.
That is conditional love. I will love someone if they love me.
It is a hard cycle to get out of, but I think important...because as a conditional emotion...it also goes this way. She hates me, I hate her.
Unconditional love...its almost like a higher state of being. Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, helll a few people here.
Much of the rose has worn off my glasses and I don't have an idealized version of goddess W in my mind. She was and is a very real person with both postive and negative qualities which I've known all along. "She" is more important to me than any of those though.
YAY! No rose colored glasses. That is huge.
Let me explain why.
I'm going to use when, not if, ok? Ok good.
When she comes back, you need to be realistic about what you are seeing and if you have her on a pedestal, the creature of grace and beauty, the woman who launched a thousand ships is really the pimply, overweight, dishevelled and broken creature you see in front of you she will be going to be on your "con" side of reasons to stay together,because she isn't living up to your fantasy version of her.
I've been challenged multiple times to think hard and honestly about whether I do want to stay married to her or not and today's answer is yes.
Today is not the day you quit. : )
I am really proud of you for that answer.
In the realm of "probably a really bad idea" I was thinking of sending a text to W in a couple of weeks saying "Forever is sometimes done one day at a time. 200 days so far. Please come home". Yeah - she already knows and yeah - bad idea to prod the sleeping giant.
We have seen this before, and here is my thinking of why people post things like this. A part of the poster is DESPERATELY HOPING someone here will say...This is such a good idea!!
It' isn't. You are correct, a bad idea. I mean...statistically speaking and from a lot of different people.
I mean you could do it...try something different if you want to see change, right? But I strongly suggest that the outcome that this message provides is something you don't forget anytime soon.
After you touched the hot stove as a kid, did you learn a lesson?
Anyway - back to our regularly scheduled tour. Tonight I think I'm going to take myself out for dinner and perhaps have a walk around the village first.
I think you deserve it. I hope you enjoy the hell out of it.
I have a small thing I want you to do. You aren't going to want to. But I REALLY think it would be good for your state of mind.
Maybe not tonight but soon.
Flirt with the waitress.
No saying take her home, not saying get a date.
Just compliment her, get her to smile.
There is a reason.
Maybe you can tell me what you think it is.
" Flirt with the waitress"
So, should he still do it if it is not a waitress but a waiter?
I'm sorry, I had to ask.
I didn't want to break Andrew on the second project I gave him, if this was way out of his comfort zone. I'm already asking him to leave his comfy box with this.
Andrew if you are comfortable enough; flirt with the waiter if that is the case. The idea is to get someone to smile.
BTW Chicken Marsala? Since no: Dear God in heaven thank you for that amazing recipe Jack...I'm thinking you haven't tried it yet. Sir...this recipe is proof that God wanted us to eat chicken. Just like Yoga pants are proof that God is a man.
Ginger, I think Jack must be a waiter somewhere. Lol!!!
I appreciate compliments no matter who gives them to me
Jack - I enjoy our chats as well as those of some of the others who have been kind enough to come to call here.
I do use duty and obligation as fuel to help keep me standing because sometimes love isn't enough especially when there is no sign of it being returned.
That is conditional love. I will love someone if they love me.
It is a hard cycle to get out of, but I think important...because as a conditional emotion...it also goes this way. She hates me, I hate her.
Unconditional love...its almost like a higher state of being. Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, helll a few people here.
It's difficult to get across complex emotions and concepts here for me sometimes. Context is important too. I do indeed love W unconditionally just like I love my children unconditionally. That quote above was talking about the day to day slog of standing for W and our future MR. Even unconditional love doesn't always burn brightly especially on days that I feel overwhelmed by the silence or when something knocks me on my @ss. Those days I throw other wood on the fire knowing that the spark of love will ignite again. (look at me using metaphors and everything).
When she comes back, you need to be realistic about what you are seeing and if you have her on a pedestal, the creature of grace and beauty, the woman who launched a thousand ships is really the pimply, overweight, dishevelled and broken creature you see in front of you she will be going to be on your "con" side of reasons to stay together,because she isn't living up to your fantasy version of her.
It's the broken part that will be hardest to deal with especially knowing that I still can't "fix" her even then. I can be the shore that she can rest on though. I do have pictures of her launching ships - at least my 16' sloop when she christened it bending over on the dock to do it .... hmmm - might need to dig that picture out and put on some of these slightly red glasses ....
Today is not the day you quit. : )
I am really proud of you for that answer.
And thanks to you and job for giving me that perspective.
We have seen this before, and here is my thinking of why people post things like this. A part of the poster is DESPERATELY HOPING someone here will say...This is such a good idea!!
After you touched the hot stove as a kid, did you learn a lesson?
I tend to be a slow learner and I admit hopeful that some of my wilder ideas might work. Burned myself on the same lightbulb 3 times working in the hall closet last weekend. Silly story time - when we were kids the electric dryer shorted out and no adults were around. We couldn't figure out which fuse was involved (Dad was "creative" when it came to electricity) so we took turns touching it and getting zapped until we found the right fuse.
I have a small thing I want you to do. You aren't going to want to. But I REALLY think it would be good for your state of mind.
Maybe not tonight but soon.
Flirt with the waitress.
No saying take her home, not saying get a date.
Just compliment her, get her to smile.
There is a reason.
Maybe you can tell me what you think it is.
I honestly have no clue. I will think on it while I flirt with the waitress or waiter (Hi Ginger!) this evening. I'm not an agressive "flirt" but I will always use extra manners and usually get a smile so this might not be as big of a challenge as you think. I'll up it a small notch tonight - not enough that I become the creepy married guy hitting on them though. Unless it's one of S22's friends who works there. That "would" be creepy.
BTW Chicken Marsala? Since no: Dear God in heaven thank you for that amazing recipe Jack...I'm thinking you haven't tried it yet. Sir...this recipe is proof that God wanted us to eat chicken. Just like Yoga pants are proof that God is a man.
All right already! I only tend to cook a couple of evening meals / week here and have been working through the freezer. I'll pick up some marsala and cooking sherry. The recipe is printed off and is with my cookbooks.
Before you ask, I make myself a hot breakfast every day and have for many years.
- On days I travel to work it's a bowl of plain oatmeal (the rolled oats, not the pre-done junk) with a spoon of honey on it. And yes the honey is put on it in a heart shaped pattern because I'm a softie. I also will take two eggs, mix in some salsa and microwave that.
- On days I am home I will have 2 breakfast sausages (I repack them into little baggies 2 at a time before freezing - have for a long time), a potato pattie and two fried eggs over medium along with a glass of milk.
- For lunches for work I will have a roast beef sandwich on rye bread, a small dish of Greek yogurt, a dish of fruit (I buy the flash frozen so it stays "fresh"), a bowl of vegetables (usually green pepper and cucumber). For later in the day I have a wrap with hummus and spinach and a bit of green pepper in it and an apple. This is the same lunch that W made me for years up until BD2. She was in the middle of doing it when I asked her about OM and even though shaking kept working on it. After that day though I couldn't rely on her to be home in the evenings and just started doing it myself.
Unrelated story as well about yoga pants and the mind of a MLC. First keep in mind that W is not the most trim person in the world. One of the things that perhaps helped shield her going to see OM was that when she would leave on one of her "walks" she would often be wearing yoga / exercise pants with matching tight top (often). They did provide a lot of support just like a typical foundation garment does but left pretty much nothing to the imagination. The "before" W wouldn't be caught dead in public in such things so it never crossed my mind that she was dressing this way for OM until a bit later. That came when we went to Walmart and she wore one of those pants complete with camel toe plus a baggy sweatshirt. I did chuckle a bit to myself about her discomfort when she realized how she was dressed and kept tugging the sweatshirt down.
PS - Thanks Jack
J3B,
I appreciate compliments no matter who gives them to me
I just looove your goatee....and is that a new cologne?
I wanted to chime in about love vs. obligation:
"...love is unconditional without stipulations and restrictions."
Sheree Gay
Some food for thought, eh?
Wonka my dear lets met in the next life. : )
I have a small thing I want you to do. You aren't going to want to. But I REALLY think it would be good for your state of mind.
Maybe not tonight but soon.
Flirt with the waitress.
No saying take her home, not saying get a date.
Just compliment her, get her to smile.
There is a reason.
Maybe you can tell me what you think it is.
I honestly have no clue. I will think on it while I flirt with the waitress or waiter (Hi Ginger!) this evening. I'm not an agressive "flirt" but I will always use extra manners and usually get a smile so this might not be as big of a challenge as you think. I'll up it a small notch tonight - not enough that I become the creepy married guy hitting on them though. Unless it's one of S22's friends who works there. That "would" be creepy.
Well - mission accomplished. I had a lovely evening out as I had intended. Since I am alone I sat at the bar for dinner as usual. The barmaid (Lindsay - not sure on the spelling) and I flirted and chatted. Sorry Ginger but the bar
man who was there last time wasn't this time. Since I was on a "mission from Jack" (extra points for the vague reference) I did up my game a bit and engaged her more than I usually would. I talked about the Carol Burnett biography I was reading and she remarked that she thought her grandmother was a fan
She'd never heard of Dick van Dyke but she was a fan of the stop-motion animated Christmas movies (my heavens - getting to that time already) like Frosty and Rudolph. She also appreciated learning the proper French name for Pea Soup (I spent a lot of time in Quebec where they do it properly). She asked my opinion about a special birthday drink she was supposed to make for one of the tables. I wasn't the creepy old guy hitting on her, he was two stools down <lol>.
Prior to that I did my 1 hour walk around the village which involves walking up and down almost every street. Cheery hellos were exchanged with people including one of W's best friends pre MLC.
Thanks for the mission Jack - I'm not sure I accomplished what you intended but I had the lovely evening that I'd intended. I was a bit concerned since I went to one of W's favourite places (and mine) that she would have been there with BIL but that didn't happen.
I'm currently having my 4th pint (3 at dinner) and need to get my lunch made, dishes done and breakfast prepared. Have a great night everyone.
PS - I've decided that for tomorrow I'm going to leave the side door open as usual to get some fresh air through the house and not have the issue with the house being locked be an issue. If history repeats - or rhymes even W won't be anywhere near here tomorrow and if she is, she won't have any issues to cause her grief and whatever leaves is just stuff.
While I still fear the unknown of forever losing her much of my fear of being alone or of starting fresh with someone else is gone but certainly lots still remains
And maybe Andrew….this is the lesson that YOU need to learn. Fear of the unknown…regardless of in what context is still fear. Fear by it’s nature will paralyze you. It is IMO, the opposite of love. So maybe it is time to work on the “lots still remain”.
What tomorrow will bring? I don't know and realize the I cannot control – so I’ll just enjoy TODAY
I modified your quote up there ^^^ a bit…
I will freely admit that I am not a perfect human being and that there are indeed things that I could "improve" about myself.
And here I thought you were perfect. Darn. LOL. As I posted on another thread….just make sure the changes you make to “improve” yourself are truly for YOU because YOU want them and NOT because someone else tells you too or as a means to secure a specific response.
That may sound cocky especially for someone who has found themselves here and yes, that's one of my flaws
Have you ever wondered what the root of the cocky behavior is? Do you know what it is?
In the realm of "probably a really bad idea" I was thinking of sending a text to W in a couple of weeks saying"Forever is sometimes done one day at a time. 200 days so far. Please come home". Yeah - she already knows and yeah - bad idea to prod the sleeping giant.
OR you could just text W…. “hey wanna come over and get naked”…..no don’t do that (that was my warped sense of humor)…I think J3B responded to this.
The barmaid (Lindsay - not sure on the spelling) and I flirted and chatted.
Are you sure Lindsay was not wearing a name tag that said Jack 3 Beans – right? You sure…cause I think I am on to something. LOL.
Sorry Ginger but the barman who was there last time wasn't this time.
So Ginger is the barman with the name tag that says Jack 3 Beans….chit now I’m really confused…
Alright….one question…..was the barmaid hot? Be honest.
While I still fear the unknown of forever losing her much of my fear of being alone or of starting fresh with someone else is gone but certainly lots still remains
And maybe Andrew….this is the lesson that YOU need to learn. Fear of the unknown…regardless of in what context is still fear. Fear by it’s nature will paralyze you. It is IMO, the opposite of love. So maybe it is time to work on the “lots still remain”.
One day at a time eric
I will freely admit that I am not a perfect human being and that there are indeed things that I could "improve" about myself.
And here I thought you were perfect. Darn. LOL. As I posted on another thread….just make sure the changes you make to “improve” yourself are truly for YOU because YOU want them and NOT because someone else tells you too or as a means to secure a specific response.
And that's one of the conflicts I have here. I'm being "encouraged" to improve myself but right now I feel that I want to enjoy the "me" that I am.
That may sound cocky especially for someone who has found themselves here and yes, that's one of my flaws
Have you ever wondered what the root of the cocky behavior is? Do you know what it is?
Absolutely. Pride. A deadly sin but a powerful shield. One of my (few) conflicts with W was my own confidence in myself. I personally feel that professionally I am one of the best in the world at doing what I do. Yes, I've met people who are better, and I've met people who are very better at parts of what I do professionally but in the overall package, I have always felt that I am among the best. Whenever I meet someone who is better, I try to learn from them. Side story. I grew up in a fairly isolated rural area which is where we moved back to. In that area I was indeed one of the smartest people around in my field (mathematics) which gave a level of arrogance. In the later years of high school I was a sought after tutor who found several attractive women who appreciated my help (platonicly). When I moved on to higher studies at the University of Waterloo I found that I was a very small fish in a much bigger pond and failed out (longer story goes here). But with the contacts that I gained I discovered what I could do effectively and have turned that into a very successful career. Even after the bombs that have dropped around me, I still have that belief in myself as being at the top of my profession. I never "flashed it about" but I do know that W was uncomfortable with my professional confidence in myself. She (mind readng!) was taught to be more humble and to not put herself forward as being really great at something even though she is fabulous in a number of areas. She's one of the best sales-persons I've ever met. She has an amazing memory for trivia. She has a way of doing math that leaves me (a mathematician) in the dust for particular types of calculations. She can connect with people on a personal level that makes them feel cared about without getting too wound up in their drama.
“hey wanna come over and get naked”
I quite like you eric - just not in that way - sorry
The barmaid (Lindsay - not sure on the spelling) and I flirted and chatted.
Are you sure Lindsay was not wearing a name tag that said Jack 3 Beans – right? You sure…cause I think I am on to something. LOL.
Sorry Ginger but the barman who was there last time wasn't this time.
So Ginger is the barman with the name tag that says Jack 3 Beans….chit now I’m really confused…
Alright….one question…..was the barmaid hot? Be honest.
She was hot in the "25 years younger than me" sort of hot. My tastes don't run that way which is probably why the flirting was so "successful".
So how did the flirting feel?
How did you feel?
How did it feel to make someone smile?
Did you get a break from thinking about your wife while you were doing it?
Andrew
And that's one of the conflicts I have here. I'm being "encouraged" to improve myself but right now I feel that I want to enjoy the "me" that I am.
An old saying in these neck of the woods…….
If it stings – look at it.
My point – if you really like and are enjoying YOU and are really happy with yourself, then honestly ignore the “encouragement” you are getting.
Absolutely. Pride. A deadly sin but a powerful shield. One of my (few) conflicts with W was my own confidence in myself. I personally feel that professionally I am one of the best in the world at doing what I do. Yes, I've met people who are better, and I've met people who are very better at parts of what I do professionally but in the overall package, I have always felt that I am among the best.
Pride, Cocky….IMO, the root of these issue is really insecurity. Learning to understand where it comes from is key. It is usually something that one cannot “fix” perse…at least that is my thought. I believe that some issues cannot be “fixed” but can be identified and dealt with. I forgot the saying but I think it is something like….. “being aware is the first step….”.
I am what some may consider a success as well. Well thought off, well compensated, significant political capital. In my sitch (and I am not saying this applies to you), the pride, insecurities…were masked by my successful career. It was not until I found these boards that I was able to realize how “I came across to my w”.
Even after the bombs that have dropped around me, I still have that belief in myself as being at the top of my profession.
Belief in yourself is important ….did the “professional” belief translate differently in how you dealt with your w – maybe? I know for me….when I was really able to step outside of my sitch I realized…..just how poorly I communicated…I realized just how much fear and insecurity drove my interactions and manner in which they were performed.
but I do know that W was uncomfortable with my professional confidence in myself
Uncomfortable or not worthy enough?
I wonder IF you were really ever able to communicate in a manner that worked for HER.
She can connect with people on a personal level that makes them feel cared about without getting too wound up in their drama.
Hmmm…interesting…. Maybe because she felt “heard” or “understood”….
Do you think that maybe you came across a certain way towards your W that she does not feel comfortable talking to you.
Question……
Would you rather be successful in business OR in LOVE? Please don’t tell me both – I get that. IF you had to choose, which one would it be?
So how did the flirting feel?Slightly awkward because I pushed it more than usual especially with such an age difference. There was no guilt because there was no romantic intention on either side. There is a bit of guilt when I flirt (very mildly) with the lady who sells me my roses but that's because she could be a possible NG even though that would be a horrible idea at present.
How did you feel?I was enjoying myself interacting and taking an interest in someone else and pleased that they were taking an interest in me even if I'm sure that part of it was "being nice to a customer". It all wasn't though - I think she honestly enjoyed the conversation. Even though I'm an introvert I quite enjoy one on one conversations with people and have always had a bit of an ability to be charming and engaging (or so I believe). I'm not 15 any more so women don't scare me fortunately.
How did it feel to make someone smile?Fabulous and I think she felt good making me smile. And yes she got a nice tip but no bigger than usual.
Did you get a break from thinking about your wife while you were doing it?Yep
Just to expand on that last bit - I think I've been doing better in detaching in some ways. In the last week I've noticed that my focus at work has improved, that I'm coming here a bit less and I can pay more attention to the world around me. Even though I have put W's picture back on my desk at work and I will confess that I've peeked at her Facebook profile (I think she's still struggling) I don't often feel that physical "pressure" in my chest and that foggy feeling in my head that I would have almost constantly especially after BD2. I certainly don't obsess any more wondering what she's doing and with who even though I do speculate from time to time. Thanks to that precious gift of time and the tools and perspective that I've gained here I can think about W and even W and OM and know that there's nothing I can do and move on with my day.
Even today when there's a chance that W and her brother will go and strip the house a bit more I'm not doing too bad. I'll get an alert if anyone goes past the door and there's nothing I can do about it. I could have been a d!ck and locked the house down but I didn't. It's now well after noon here and no sign of anyone going into the house as of yet. If I remember correctly this is W's usual day off but I have no way of knowing what her schedule is these days.
I did have a (too long) talk about W with a friend this morning talking about how I felt sorry for her on her journey and the coping tools I've been using to deal with my own journey. Even after that I didn't at any point feel that I was about to break down like I would have even 3 weeks ago. This friend is a hot-blooded latin who I confided in back after BD1 when I thought I was facing imminent divorce and needed advice on how to survive that process. He was suggesting today that I do something to "prod" W and make her feel that I was actively pulling away from her like blocking her on social media. I countered with the advice that I got here - some from yourself Jack and a bunch from job - that I didn't want to provoke her in any fashion because I was scared of what might be woken up right now. I also said that it didn't bother me at all that she can see what I'm up to and that I preferred it as part of being open and honest.
In my conversation with my IC yesterday one of the things that came up was how I still broke down but that I didn't understand the triggers. It used to be because I was overwhelmed and lost and depressed. Depression is still a daily part of my life but as I described it to her it was almost like there is a pool of tears inside me that one crack in the shell and they all come pouring out but that the dark feelings rarely accompany them.
So - still not sure what the purpose of the extra flirting was but I had a nice evening and you got a not unexpected long story in response.
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Just before I was about to hit submit I saw that you stopped by eric so I thought I'd respond to your comments too - trying to keep my thread/posting count down by putting multiple responses together. Hopefully it's still readable. I'm grateful for the "Preview" button.
but I do know that W was uncomfortable with my professional confidence in myself
Uncomfortable or not worthy enough?
Uncomfortable. She was always taught not to put herself forward even though she has a lot to be proud of. We rarely talked about my own belief in myself especially since I knew she didn't like to hear me do what she would perhaps (mind reading!) think of as bragging. One of the conflicts we had was at a time when I was doing freelance (more on that below) and business was slow. She suggested rather agressively at the time that I quit doing freelance and try to get a job at WalMart stocking shelves. She was upset when I rejected it out of hand as not being not a good use of my skills. Shortly after that I signed a couple of small projects that paid more than a year's Walmart pay would have been. I wisely never mentioned our previous conversation to her.
I wonder IF you were really ever able to communicate in a manner that worked for HER.
She can connect with people on a personal level that makes them feel cared about without getting too wound up in their drama.
Hmmm…interesting…. Maybe because she felt “heard” or “understood”….
Do you think that maybe you came across a certain way towards your W that she does not feel comfortable talking to you.
We used to talk all the time - up to a few months before the A started. Current events, our neighbours, our kids, our plans, everything was fodder for discussion. The only thing that was never a subject was anything to do with depression or any problems we might have been having with our R. Any time I would try to bring it up W would get angry and change the subject loudly. W herself
never talked to me about depression or problems we might be having even though I would ask as gently as possible. When things were good though - and they were a lot of the time - we would talk about how great we were as a couple and as parents and how happy we were.
I have no clue on how we'll fix this if she ever chooses to come back but it needs to be. I also have no clue on if she did open up about her feelings and problems to her friends or OM but I think it could reasonably be expected that she did. Before you ask - I don't know why for our entire relationship she wouldn't talk to me about problems.
Question……
Would you rather be successful in business OR in LOVE? Please don’t tell me both – I get that. IF you had to choose, which one would it be?
Sheesh - why do the shortest questions get the longest answer.
Actually perhaps this surprises you but 100% Love. I think I can honestly say that "failing" in my MR has hit me far harder than any of the business or career failures I've had. Those I could bounce back from quickly because I was always confident that there was something else out there for me. Having my MR fall apart has hit me to the core. Career / business "success" is nice given the standard definition of that. In my career I want to feel that I make a difference and that I'm valued but I'm willing to do a job that's just a job to have a good life with the one that I love.
Minor back-story. I started my career basically doing consulting and IT professional services in a major urban centre. When W and I decided to buy the house in the rural area we are in now that became our home for more than half of our lives I was able to get a job with a local professional services firm. Not a great job and the role was quite a bit more junior to what I had been doing. That company went bust a bit over a year later when W was 8 months pregnant with our first child. We decided to try to stick it out in that house and I would try to go out on my own. Moving back to the city was an option but we wanted to keep our house. I was able to pick up a few of the accounts from my former company and built up a reasonably good practice working both on my own and in collaboration with others for about 12 years. We never had a lot of money but the work was challenging and rewarding and I had flexible hours and got to spend a lot of time with my kids as they were growing up and engage in the community through volunteer work with a couple of different good causes. At the same time W did free-lance work too - mostly book-keeping and secretarial which also gave her a lot of flexibility. We were both very proud of being "small business owners".
In 2003 the recession and changes at some major clients meant that the work dried up substantially. We had also not been managing our finances well and had our backs right up against the wall. In searching for new business I came across the ad for where I am now which at the time was for a 6 month contract. It would mean a lot of commuting but steady income was needed. After I met with the company it turned out that it was essentially a permanent role. We sat down as a family even though the kids were still pre-teen and talked about what it would mean in terms of me being away a lot but also the added security that we would get. The role was "very" junior to what I was qualified for but again - steady money. We decided that I should take the job and little to my surprise I grew the role to one where even though I'm still doing a much more junior role than what I'm qualified for I can get some satisfaction in having an impact on the organization and the respect I get from my colleagues from the plant floor up the the C-suite. The good steady money and benefits got us out of the financial hole we were in only about 2 years ago which is when I started looking for something new.
I'm not sure that this is relevant to where you were going with your question eric but one thing I've learned here is that it's better for me to write too much because people can choose what to read or not read but the writing also helps me probe into my own personality and history.
Andrew
I'm not sure that this is relevant to where you were going with your question eric but one thing I've learned here is that it's better for me to write too much because people can choose what to read or not read but the writing also helps me probe into my own personality and history
Thank you for taking the time to post. Yes, it is better to provide as much detail and where applicable, back stories. It helps us get to know YOU better. It also as you pointed out helps YOU.
I have no clue on how we'll fix this if she ever chooses to come back but it needs to be.
As the 'ole saying goes....you cannot fix HER - you can fix YOU. I say this because maybe, you will need to FIND THE CLUE...FIGURE OUT the way to COMMUNICATE with HER in a manner that works for BOTH of YOU.
Any good plans for the upcoming weekend?
Peace,
Eric
Any good plans for the upcoming weekend?
Peace,
Eric
Well - I'm working from my home office today so pulled out some chicken breasts to try this fabulous new recipe that a friend of mine suggested tonight
I need to go into the liquor store (not W's) later to get some wine and sherry that the recipe calls for that I don't have in stock. I might pick up some beer too.
I have a dentist appt shortly and then am thinking that I'll get my flu shot. I haven't for the last year or so because it usually knocks me on my @ss for a week or so. W had encouraged me to stop getting them because of that but I think protecting the ones around me from influenza is perhaps more important. My back has been giving me problems for the last few days so I need to take it easy for a while. One of the worries that I have in being alone is that if something were to happen to me like throwing my back right out which has happened before it would be difficult to manage. W was never much of a "kind nurse" so I'm pretty self-sufficient.
Not sure about the weekend. There's a hockey game Saturday night that I might go to but it doesn't start until 8:00pm - makes for a late night for a guy like me. Sunday is supposed to be nice so I'll do my laundry then so that I can hang it out on the line. I'm also thinking of starting to get some stuff together to decorate the house for the fall. In our first few years here W used to do that and it makes the house look nice. I may also write my monthly letter to S22/D24 being up-beat.
Speaking of W - she didn't show up yesterday which would have been the most "logical" day of recent times for her to stop by to pick up stuff. Oh well. Still dead silence from her to me. In recent times I think she's reached out to the kids more often though so that's good.
I asked myself this morning when I got up if today was the day I was giving up and the answer was no.
I've been in a good mood for the last few days. Hope tells me that perhaps I've turned a corner. History tells me to watch for a swing down again. Keeping busy should help with that.
How about yourself? I hope you'll take some time for eric this weekend.
I asked myself this morning when I got up if today was the day I was giving up and the answer was no.
That is one of the best things I have seen you post....
You know what they say: when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
That is true....
Yet, if you are a nail, you could spend your entire existence waiting for a Hammer, so that your true purpose can begin....
I asked myself this morning when I got up if today was the day I was giving up and the answer was no.
That is one of the best things I have seen you post....
I owe Jack and job big time for that perspective.
You know what they say: when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
That is true....
Yet, if you are a nail, you could spend your entire existence waiting for a Hammer, so that your true purpose can begin....
Mach1 - I just can't resist myself. I have a weakness for crappy analogies.
If you are a nail there is no need to wait for a Hammer. I've put nails in with pliers recently when repairing some picture frames. My own father used to drive screws in with a hammer except the last couple of turns arguing that they were screw "nails". I've also used rocks, random pieces of metal, whatever was to hand.
I think that's one of the things that made my MR work well for so many years. I can't speak for W but I knew she wasn't perfect. She was pretty darned good though and I was content with that.
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Not that it matters to anyone except me but my good mood seems to be persisting although I write below that there's an "edge" that I'm feeling. The dental hygienist finished with a good polishing and it was nice to see a couple of the stains that were on my teeth vanish. I have no interest in whitening although I have contemplated it in the past. Realistically it's been about 6 years since I last had things done properly. Lots of bad reasons that I could try to blame W for as to why I didn't. I go in next week for one final visit to replace a missing filling.
My "something's up with W" bump is itching today but I know I can't scratch it. It's weird. I'm not feeling the need (much) to take action which I will resist, but it's more the feeling that she'll suddenly pop up out of nowhere. Other times I've had this were when she moved at the end of August. I did buy some lottery tickets which is highly unusual for me so maybe they are calling out to me ....
Well - time to pop out to the bake-shop and get a fresh scone for my lunch then in to the next town over to get some cooking sherry and Marsala. No flu shot today. The pharmacy isn't offering them until next month.
Andrew,
Do not forget to POUND the chicken to what...1/4" right?
That part is very important, it tenderizes the chicken. I use a gallon zip lock bag, with a towel and a regular hammer on its side, before I got a tenderizer.
also the cooking sherry is just as vital. If you think you can make this without it, your making normal chicken marsala...and not this recipe from heaven. : )
I owe Jack and job big time for that perspective.
Pay it forward some day. That's how you give back here. : )
There's a hockey game Saturday night that I might go to but it doesn't start until 8:00pm - makes for a late night for a guy like me.
Old version guy like you, or new version guy like you?
Myself I'm hoping on Sunday you tell me which player spent the most time in the penalty box.
Sorry if you have talked about this before but something you said made me curious.
Have you read love languages?
What is your love language? How do you show it and how do you receive it?
I usually stay away from asking about spouses because I'm more concerned with trying to help people on the boards but do you know what your W's languages are (giving and receiving)? Did you show her in those ways?
Have you read love languages?
What is your love language? How do you show it and how do you receive it?
I usually stay away from asking about spouses because I'm more concerned with trying to help people on the boards but do you know what your W's languages are (giving and receiving)? Did you show her in those ways?
Spartan - Thanks for stopping by.
I read 5 love languages about 3 months ago. At Mach1's suggestion (I think it was him) it's on my bedside table to re-read. I did quickly go through the survey at the back again and it's interesting that a number of my answers have changed since then. The first time around it was "words of affection" and "quality time". My answers then were perhaps distorted by where I was feeling the lack at that time.
Instead of couching my answer (again short question - long answer) in the boundaries of that book I'll write some rambling thoughts.
When we first met I was definitely insecure in a relationship and only having had a few girlfriends previously, a couple of which were serious and one that ended "quite badly" (a similar person to W in hind-sight - a story for another time perhaps?), I would show affection for W through giving her gifts - many of which I couldn't afford as well as taking her out to dinner. We dug to the bottom of my credit card with our forks. I'm not sure if that was her love language at that time but she certainly didn't stop me very often. Over the years I actually got quite good at giving her jewellery that quite suited her and that she liked. The last big thing was a "family" ring in 2014. I always felt that when she got those little boxes that her eyes would get misty and she did seem to cherish those gifts. She certainly took all of them with her when she walked out as well as - at least at that time - wearing the main rings I gave her constantly, even around the house. These were her engagement diamond, wedding band, eternity band on her "ring finger" and her family ring with its 4 stones on her right ring finger. Even when she would be leaving to see OM those rings would be on her hands. No clue if she took them off when she was with him but somehow I doubt it - they are
very symbolic to us. Because W despite being heavy is a "petite" person the jewellery I would get her would be "petite" as well. Despite her own belief before she got them reduced about 16 years ago that her breasts were her best features I always felt that it was her hands and her smile.
When for her birthday etc I would offer to give her the entire day to do anything that she wanted the results often surprised me. One year she asked me to weed the garden (which had been her and the kids responsibility). I don't remember what she did that day - I think she went shopping. Other similar "acts of service" were requests on other years. Minor aside - W had a problem early in our MR with "retail therapy". There would be bags hanging off doorknobs with unopened purchases. She (largely) kicked that habit about 15 years ago and kicked it for good when we worked together to get ourselves out of debt. She was very proud of herself for being careful with our money at that point. I used to brag to people that she could squeeze together 2 nickels and get a quarter.
For many years I would get up much earlier than W to head off to work / visit clients. She would always
insist that I wake her up, give her a kiss and tell her that I loved her. Not sure where that falls in the love languages world. In recent years when she had so many problems getting a good night's sleep I would try to sneak out to let her sleep but practically never was able to. She also seemed to appreciate casual physical affection. We would hug, hold hands etc. A nice tight squeeze by me would usually be rewarded with a sigh / moan (not that sort of moan). Casual physical affection was common too. She would reach out to touch me often. In the winter time we would curl up together and she would scratch and stroke my winter beard. I would stop and kiss her on the back of the neck while making my breakfast etc. It was very difficult to me when starting about 2 weeks after BD1 when she started flinching when I would do this rather than sighing.
One of the more bizarre stories of this journey was in May when W spent the weekend with OM. She announced this in advance to me (asking if I would look after her dog who was sick at the time - I did). That weekend was sheer h@ll for me as I'm sure you can imagine. The first couple of message aren't handy and I'm too lazy to dig into my backups but here is the exchange. As you can tell I've always historically been the one who tried first to make up.
PreA - Please remember that I love you unconditionally and be safe
W - I will
PostA - 8:00 - The last 24 hours have been the most difficult I have ever had to face. Please know that my strong and deep love for you continues.
A - 11:00 - Are you coming home?
W - 11:06 - Yes
A - 11:09 - When?
W - 12:09 - I'll be home by 5, if that's alright with you.
A - 12:10 - I have no say over your affairs. Do whatever you will.
A - 12:49 - Please remember that I do still love you despite my current upset. You are always welcome in our home. You are also welcome in my arms whenever you are ready.
A - 14:24 - Should I get anything out for Sunday supper?
W - 14:34 - Do you feel like BBQ Sausage? I could do the potato & veg
A - 14:36 - Sure. Great idea. I'll bring a package up.
W - 14:39 - Thank you
Surreal right? Then when she came home she proceeded to make one of the dishes that she absolutely detests - fried onions. Which I enjoy but I suspect she was making "my favourite" along with the BBQ sausages with I had been very keen on about 5 years ago but not so much in recent years. I'd also over-dosed on sausages the night before making myself a "my life is hell" dinner but felt that I shouldn't rebuff her attempts at being nice.
I would "always" tell W the truth and would regularly compliment her on her appearance and accomplishments. Coming down in the morning she would be greeted with "good morning beautiful". On days that she was looking particularly squalid because of a rough night I would only say something like "you look tired today". Breaking wind was laughed at and I would remark "sparkles and rainbows" and we would laugh.
Looking back at the things that made me happy that W would do for me comes up with spending time with me, talking to me, walking and holding hands. If you've read some of my previous posts I did wish that she complimented me. I know that she was proud of me when I would hear her talk about me to others but I rarely heard it from her. It's interesting to me that right now when I'm trying to find stories to illustrate this that I'm having difficulty. I'm sure those stories exist, I just can't find them in my head right now.
Slight side-trip - not sure if this is meaningful or not - but I get to control what I write and you can choose to read or not. After the kids left home W and I would go out almost every Sunday morning for breakfast to a local restaurant. It was odd to me because W would associate this with the Sunday morning love-making and not expect to be taken out for breakfast if she didn't "put out". I only "got it" once a week and only if she was feeling up to it. That had been established in about our first year of marriage. I don't think she knew how much trouble I had with her low desire as I tried very hard to mask it. I worked hard to try to change this attitude where she linked putting out with breakfast out but I don't know how successful I was. I did get annoyed at one point about having to spend a large amount of my weekly pocket money buying her breakfast. We were on a tight budget for a long time. So at one point a couple of years ago I decided to make W breakfast at home instead. Despite Jack's impressions (Hi Jack!) I'm a rather good cook as long as I don't have to make Minute Rice. I got quite upset though because after love-making I would get up to make breakfast. W would stay in bed playing games on her iPad etc until breakfast was ready when she would come down and express appreciation for the breakfast and come up with requests for future breakfasts. I had hoped that she would have visited with me while I bustled around the kitchen. This lasted for about a month before I got fed up with what I felt as being taken advantage of and we started going back out to eat instead.
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On the "lol" note - the widow around the corner called claiming that it was a wrong number and then chatted pleasantly with me for about 5 minutes making sure I knew when she was walking around the village - she's seen me walking. It may well have been a wrong number but she was pretty sure who she was talking to which is funny in a weird way. One of my cousins who has the exact same name as me has a business in the village so "AndrewP" could have been either of us.
How about yourself? I hope you'll take some time for eric this weekend.
That is the plan. Have a week vacation planned unfortunately I’ll be doing a little work while on vaca. Bleh..it is what it is. Thank you for asking.
Hope tells me that perhaps I've turned a corner. History tells me to watch for a swing down again.
1) Listen to HOPE and
2) History is already forgotten…so NEVER listen to History.
Let us know how the hockey game goes.
Well??? How did the chicken turn out?
I've been thinking more and more that my story would be a great candidate to be turned into a romantic comedy. My "adventures in housekeeping" would certainly draw a laugh. My character would be cast as a clueless professer
The chicken turned out pretty well. I may make it again and it is a dead easy dish. Marsala is rather like Madeira which both W and S22 quite like. It's a bit sweet for me but I had a small glass to help with the inspiration.
As an aside that might be helpful for others here who are coping with being alone, for much of the meat I get I've been freezing in individual servings for many years. Chicken breasts are usually cut in half. Breakfast sausages are frozen in twos. Bacon (which I don't eat any more - long story related to W and triggers which doesn't matter) I would lay out in individual strips on cling-wrap and fan-fold it.
So some of the compromises:
- I used too heavy of a hammer to "tenderize" the chicken. I took it down to the shop in the original baggies on a cutting board. I put a board on top and whacked it with one of my heavier hammers. One blow and it was 1/4" thick. Not sure if that's "tenderizing" or not. I only did up 2 chicken breasts and it still made a lot. I did make a full quantity of the coating / sauce.
- I only have whole wheat flour so I used that.
- The mushrooms were canned
- I didn't have pre-ground pepper so I used fresh ground and perhaps a bit less than the recipe called for.
- I had to be creative in finding something to cover the frying pan with. W took the covered one.
Even without a side dish it made a lot of food for one guy. I'd thought of trying Minute Rice but was glad I didn't.
I'm not sure how it was supposed to look / turn out but it ended up being chicken in a sweet mushroom sauce.
I now have lots of Marsala and sherry left over even though I bought the smallest bottles. I'm thinking I might do up a ham sometime and use a bit with that.
Thanks for the recipe Jack. I'm off shortly to do the weekly bank withdrawal then will go into town later to get my groceries and some odds and sods that I need. It's a rainy day here so my main bit of laundry will wait for tomorrow when I can use the clothes line. I got my last hydro bill yesterday and it's down about 15% since W moved out.
Hey AP, just stopping by to say hello! I've been locked into the newcomer board and been busy as of late but haven't forgotten about you. Sounds like you are getting stronger each day. Jealous of the cooking skills! Will fully catch up with your situation shortly, but as always, you make for some long reading!
Keep being you brother!
I'm all caught up. Finally.
Well, I did get caught up right when the last thread reached the max... I had to wait for a new one to post!
One thing I've noticed throughout the threads is that you often have a negative comment about your wife. Whether it's her poor cleaning skills, body shape, or lack of communication with you... it's there in many of your posts. I wanted to point this out for you to think about. I have no idea why this is happening, but I wonder if it also happened indirectly around your wife. Perhaps she didn't feel your love or appreciation of her. Like I said, I don't know, but I wanted to toss the idea in your direction to ponder.
I do enjoy hearing about your new adventures and hope you continue to try new things. As I read your stories, it makes me want to share mine. I'm not sure where I should start though.
lt0402 - Thanks for the drive-by. Yes - today I feel a lot stronger. I was actually singing along to the radio today, something that I hadn't done in ages. I also laughed and smiled when picking up my roses and it wasn't forced at all.
I'm all caught up. Finally.
Well, I did get caught up right when the last thread reached the max... I had to wait for a new one to post!
One thing I've noticed throughout the threads is that you often have a negative comment about your wife. Whether it's her poor cleaning skills, body shape, or lack of communication with you... it's there in many of your posts. I wanted to point this out for you to think about. I have no idea why this is happening, but I wonder if it also happened indirectly around your wife. Perhaps she didn't feel your love or appreciation of her. Like I said, I don't know, but I wanted to toss the idea in your direction to ponder.
I do enjoy hearing about your new adventures and hope you continue to try new things. As I read your stories, it makes me want to share mine. I'm not sure where I should start though.
dream - Darling! I'm so glad you've come to visit me here. I was going to wait for a day or so to post since not a lot is happening but when I saw you were here I couldn't resist. I was re-reading my thread which I will do regularly to get fresh perspective (and strength) from what people have been kind enough to share with me. As you know I always appreciated your calm perspective and kind words. I'm flattered that you spent the time and effort to read what I've written much of which is probably just blather.
Thanks for pointing out the negativity about W in my posts. I honestly can't say why I felt the need to write that. To her and with others I would never say any of those things. I do adore her and think she's beautiful and talented. Her flaws were never a topic of conversation with anyone except one good friend and that pretty much stopped years ago. After BD2 I did talk about her flaws to the SIL army as well to give them context and perspective and to vent. Looking within myself perhaps I'm trying to paint a monster who isn't worth waiting for (?). I know that I've had doubts on a regular basis. Part of it as well was to give context for me questioning why OM went for her and questioning my willingness to keep waiting. I'm going to review what I write more critically and think more about what it is I'm trying to say and why.
If you felt like posting your own story the best suggestion I could make is taken from one of my favourite books.
"Begin at the beginning," the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop."
Whenever I use this quote though I always point out that many people have a lot of problems with these instructions, myself included. I find that for me writing is helping with the healing process especially lately here where there have been such patient and kind folks.
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Minor update
I wrote my monthly email letter to S22/D24 today. Even though I now also call them regularly I keep writing too. They say that they like getting my letters. Most of it was just general news, adventures in housekeeping, the fact that I threw my back out slightly, details of my canoe trip etc. I did tell them that I'm feeling better and that this forum and the IC have been helping. I have asked them to not come looking for me here and I don't believe that they have. I did put a couple of paragraphs in the bottom talking about W in general terms (I don't know if they know about OM and am assuming not). I did tell them that I was still waiting for her to come home, that I loved her unconditionally and that I would welcome her home. I did say as well that I hadn't heard anything essentially from her since she left and that I was still leaving her alone other than mentioning the letter I sent to her asking her to come home at the end of August. Before I sent it I re-read the August letter I had sent them. Boy I was an absolute mess then - much worse than now. Most of it was about W and how I was lost, confused and worried.
I'm just about to make myself some dinner. A simpler one than last night that doesn't involve cooking sherry since I'm going to head out to a hockey game for 8:00. Trying something new(ish) for me and something that W may well enjoy. She'd talked about it from time to time starting a couple of months before the A and even though I would suggest we go we never did possibly because she didn't think I would enjoy it. I suspect that since OM was interested in it that it piqued her own interest as they grew closer. This is going to be one GAL though that I'm keeping quiet - I don't want her to think that I'm doing this for her. It's Junior hockey - 16 year olds I believe so the action should be fast as those kids pour their hearts out into the game.
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One thing I've been thinking about in recent days is the whole "re-writing of history" thing that the MLC is supposed to do and I think a light went off. I'd written before that I didn't think that had happened in my sitch. I remember clearly on New Years Eve W being affectionate, proud of being faithful (not sure why that came up but she would mention it occasionally for years) and I felt at that time secure in the MR. Shortly after BD1 she said then that she had decided in the summer to leave but so much time after that was filled with happy loving memories for me that it confused me. I'm thinking that is one of her "re-writes" - not that it matters but it gives me a better perspective that even though this has been brewing for quite a while it (perhaps) wasn't as pre-meditated as I originally believed.
A fresh crumb of hope that I've baked for myself has come to mind in the last week or so as well. I have no idea if this is a valid crumb or not and was originally going to ask the MLC vets here about it but the answer perhaps doesn't matter. Part of why I was re-reading my threads today was to get a fresh perspective on the question / thought. W's now been gone from the house 2 months. From what S22 told me earlier this week it seems that she's been reaching out to S22/D24 from time to time recently which didn't happen before - perhaps trying to reconnect with her children? I hope so. Where my crumb comes from is in something that I've read in a few places where the MLC needs to be left alone to "bake". She's modestly done the "wild living" thing, had an A, planned to move out and live independently and then seemed to crash on BD2.1 after I begged her to reconcile. She's had to face some very hard realities as well. Even though I miss her, I'm hoping that the longer she takes to bake that the better the result will be and the more likely she'll remember me and decide to come home rather than go off to new adventures with OM or alone or on a different path all together. No clue if this is true or not but I'll put this crumb in the box with the others.
AndrewP - have not said much to you since we both hit this MLC thread round about the same time. I have been reading, but missed the past few days. I must say, you being a Canadian and all, I am impressed with how well you speak American.
Love ya buddy.
Your story about breakfast really thugged the big bass string on my heart. Sunday was also my reg ML day w/ spouse and going out for breakfast. The place we routinely went was a Ma -n- Pa place down the road. I went to take son there for pancakes one morning a few weeks ago and my spouse was there w/OM...in the exact same place we ll used to sit as a family. I saw them thru the window. I was proud of myself as had that occurred a few months ago I would have beat that dude without any representation of compassion, forgiveness, or mercy. This was the first time I saw him in the real world and not just his FB stuff from way back or his truck at her house. My son would have seen it and I would have gone to jail; what a difference a little difference can make. Anyway, I digress.
You had much in your posts, but the last one on crumbs:
W's now been gone from the house 2 months. From what S22 told me earlier this week it seems that she's been reaching out to S22/D24 from time to time recently which didn't happen before - perhaps trying to reconnect with her children?
Cadet once told me that there is an order to the way the WW or MLC leave. I don't recall exact, like You-kids-pets-home-etc. Anyway, he said they come back in reverse order as I recall. So, you are far too wise and educated at this point to see this as a reason to get hopes up, but then again, you are the lighthouse. Actually, are there lighthouses in Ontario? or lights for that matter? US media really only tells Americans about Rob Ford and those cheap pharma's.
How full is that box of crumb's? Time for a new box?
Andrew and CT,
Here is a thread that I created many years ago on reconnection. It should be helpful to both of you further down the road. You are the first that the MLCer disconnects from and the last for reconnection.
TMAK -- Explanation of Reconnection
CT1118 - Thanks for the drive-by. You started this journey later than I did and on a
much bumpier road and have made amazing progress. I was reading this morning that your W is trying to connect with you more - that's going to be bumpy and uphill and you'll have to make a fresh road to travel on with guardrails (yes I love bad analogies). I continue to be impressed and hopeful for you.
So, you are far too wise and educated at this point to see this as a reason to get hopes up, but then again, you are the lighthouse. Actually, are there lighthouses in Ontario?
<snip>
How full is that box of crumb's? Time for a new box?
CT1118 - There are quite a number of Imperial light-houses, some of them still in fairly good shape around my area. Only a few of them carry lights any more. W gave me a book on them a number of years ago which I leaf through from time to time. There's a couple within an easy drive of me but I confess that I haven't visited them for some time. If you want a cheap fun vacation and are interested in diving, in Ontario at the top of the Bruce Peninsula is a small town called Tobormory. There are lots of wrecks to dive on in that hazardous water plus there are day tours that go out past the islands and I believe take in a couple of the lights that are up there. From your "city in the south" you could probably get a cheap flight to Buffalo and then rent a car/RV from there for a really long drive through some of the best countryside in the world. Flying into Toronto doesn't really save much time and would cost a lot more.
If you want a break from all the DB and your course-work I highly suggest the book "The Lighthouse Stevensons" by Bella Bathurst. It's a bit hard to find but I quite enjoyed it. Your library may have a copy. The stories of building a lighthouse that stand the test of time (which they have) on a barely exposed rock is a testament to the power of will and determination. Robert Louis Stevenson is one of the offsprings of this family. For something easier there is a BBC documentary on NetFlix called Seven Wonders of the Industrial World where they dramatize and discuss the creation of the Bell Rock lighthouse - still standing and protecting mariners 200 years later. One takeaway from this is that to have a good lighthouse you need a strong foundation to stand on but even weak foundations can be adapted and stand the test of time.
WRT my box of crumbs - it's still a pretty small box. About all it has in it is are some "not" signs:
- She told me on move-out night that she still loves me
- She's not moved in with OM or moved away from the area
- She's not announced that we're separated
- She's left a lot of possessions and hasn't come back for them
- She (appears) to be living a quiet and non-wild life
- In recent times her postings on Facebook have become dramatically fewer with less drama and angst on them (yes, I've started watching again - keeping an eye on myself to know that if I get caught up that I need to drop that again). She's not spending nearly as much time on Facebook/Messenger as she used to. She can go more than a day sometimes without logging in. It used to be constant with her even at work at the height of the A. Oddly OM isn't on Facebook.
- When she left she took her dog with her (she knows I don't like him - might not be relevant) I had offered to keep him but she said it was her responsibility
- She's connecting to S22/D24 from time to time
- She's not severed connection to our finances and still looks at our books from time to time
- I see footprints of her checking my social media profile (Snapchat)
- No spewing / anger
- She knows that I still love her and have not moved on and have not pushed her away.
- She's asking S22 at least how I'm doing.
Putting on my mind-reading turban I would detect that she continues to be depressed, confused and lost. Presuming that her path does lead home my mystic powers tell me that she needs to find it within herself to admit her mistakes and commit to the work needed to rebuild our MR. I honestly don't know if she has it in her to do it although she is one of the strongest, most resilient people I know. She probably has a
lot of fear happening too.
job - thanks for the link. I believe I've read it before but one thing I know is that I will often need to read things multiple times, each time getting fresh perspective.
--------------
Since I have this post open - trivial update that J3B asked for in part. The hockey game was fun. Some of those 16 year-olds are full sized men complete with beards and don't mind tossing their bodies around. One poor kid would barely get out on the ice before he would knock someone down and end up in the penalty box. Mind you, he was chasing after them. I can't recall his name off the top of my head. I didn't run into anyone I knew but saw on Facebook later some friends who were there tagging themselves. For $8.25 ($7.00 admission $1.25 for a cup of coffee) it was a fun couple of hours out. I'm sure I'll go again. I was proud of myself too - for those hours I kept my phone in my pocket, enjoyed the game and only rarely wondered what W was up to. I knew positively that she wouldn't have been there with OM because she very much would have been recognized.
I had a bit of a scare last night when I got home though. Before the game I had a tickle in my throat and took a lozenge to ease it. Leaving the game I noticed my neck was very sore and stiff - perhaps the cold. When I got home I felt a bit foggy, took a couple of aspirin and went to bed. A couple of hours later I was bathed in sweat as my fever broke. I then spent over an hour shivering unable to get warm. I was terrified because I didn't know if something serious was wrong, had no-one to ask and didn't know who I could call if I was having an emergency. I did get back to sleep eventually and slept for about 10 hours total. My neck is still a bit stiff and my back which I threw out slightly a week or so ago is hurting a bit more. I think whatever it was has passed. Not sure if I'll be up to cutting the grass today - we'll see how it goes.
Fairly busy house-keeping day today. Laundry, ironing, grass (possibly), flower beds and perhaps cleaning some more of W's stuff out of the bathrooms. While I hope she comes home I do have to acknowledge that she might not. If she chooses to leave then her stuff is easy for her to get. If she chooses to come-back it's just a bit of extra unpacking. For me though it allows me to clean and organize the house for myself.
I also need to do a minor bit of office work and try to get through some homework reading from my IC and the reading that job just pointed out (thanks again).
job, thanks for the link. Will check out later today, moving on a tight schedule today - only have two hour window - s5 and I have two hours each day which I call "personal space time". We stay in the same place, but both disengage from each other and do our own thing. Plus, I would like him to know that needing your own time is both acceptable and healthy - I was never taught that as a kid.
Andrew P - On the lighthouses, of course you know I was kidding. I do have the Canadian countryside on my top 10 list of places where I could afford a long trip. I will make it one day. I have some close friends who dive, they regularly do the Caribbean, but both swear that Canada is the best. I will check out that Doc, you suggested. If you have an interest, I too live around a bunch of historic Lighthouses - check out the Outer Banks of NC sometime or the Eastern Shore of Virginia/Maryland/Delaware for some good ones.
Speaking of what we have in common, and thank you for the kind words BTW, that box of crumbs you have looks a whole lot like my box of crumbs. Still fascinates me how people from different culture, different countries, different ages and well all have such similar tales to tell. You are doing well too my friend and there is movement in your story as well. But, you know the best progress has been your own.
Take care of that back man. I threw out mine two years ago and it became three dislocated ribs because I did not listen to the rest period my doctor advised.
Andrew,
I hope you are feeling better soon. Maybe you need to think about postponing some of the "to dos" today and rest your back and your neck.
CT,
Enjoy your time w/your son.
Putting on my mind-reading turban
Just wondering....when you are goint to stop wearing that turban? In my lifetime - maybe?
Hope your back is feeling better.
eric - I thought you were on vacation. Thanks for stopping by. The turban is so stylish though .... I used to joke with a Sikh acquaintance when I had long hair and my winter beard that I all I needed was the 5 articles of faith (look it up if you are interested) and I'd probably fit right in - other than not being a true follower of the guru
Completely irrelevant update follows because I like writing.
My back is still bothering me and my neck is still a bit stiff but much better - thanks for asking. Sunday went OK and I did get my chore list done and felt OK at the end of it. BBQ porkchop and roasted potato for dinner (seemed silly to get the BBQ out for just me but what the heck). I then sat down and re-watched the Bell Rock Lighthouse documentary that I had recommended to CT1118. Applying it to the "Lighthouse Story" puts a whole other meaning on it but different lights have different purposes. Some lights mark the entrances to harbours but others like the Bell Rock identify hazards and are warnings. The stronger the storms, the stronger the lighthouse needs to be with a solid foundation was one good take-away perhaps. Before that lighthouse there was an active industry in combing the beaches for the dead and flotsam and jetsam after a storm. Sometimes people who weren't quite dead certainly where before their pockets were searched - a harsh place. Sorry for the side trip - fascinating story to me.
So this morning my alarm went off at 4:45am as usual and I had already been awake for an hour feeling like crap with a high fever and sweats so notified work that I would be off today. Not having a thermometer any more I tried to get back to sleep until when the shops would be open, showered, shaved and put on fresh briefs to go into the local larger centre to get a thermometer. I also popped across the street to the sister store of the one that W works at to pick up some chicken soup. Interesting interaction with one of the staff when she asked me how I was doing and I said "not great". She re-assured me that everything will work out in time to which I held up the 2 cans of soup I was buying and added "and chicken soup". I'm not sure how the wider knowledge of W's departure is affecting her but for me it seems to be a positive thing with a lot of kindness and sympathy from people and less awkwardness from them as time passes. No clue if news of her A is getting wider traction. Gossip and secrets generally aren't shared with the principals in a small town.
When I got home and the first bowl of soup was cooking I took my temperature - 99.5 - high but not too bad. I didn't feel as fevered then though as I did earlier. I spent the day in bed with the cats. They're not usually allowed in but I wanted company. I found myself getting wound up about my sitch - nothing specific just feeling overwhelmed and the same thought patterns kept running through my head so I listened to one of the meditation sessions that my IC had suggested. A bunch of new age hooey if you ask me but it helped a lot to get me to think of other things. My un-listened Bloomberg podcast list then started auto-playing and I spent the rest of the afternoon catching up on podcasts to which I was able to give some attention and focus taking my mind off other things. Mid-afternoon temperature was 102.3 so staying home again tomorrow. Wednesday I have my final dentist's appointment of this session so hopefully I'll be fine by then. Three days with no travel - saving lots of money but limiting my human contact.
Since S22/D24 are watching me at my request on the Life360 app I sent them a note that I was home but otherwise kept it quiet. Old AndrewP would have posted something to Facebook but I don't want to pop up too high on W's radar much less show her that I'm currently hurt and vulnerable. I also cancelled my schedule catch-up call with D24 because I felt that the fever made me too fragile. I don't know what it is but when W has dropped the most / worst bombs on me it has been when I am weakened in some way. Not that I really expected anything from her today anyway - still dead silence to me from her and from what I've seen of her own activity she's not talking to hardly anyone right now but that could be completely wrong since I only have a minuscule window on what she's doing which is probably for the best. I do worry about getting caught up again and am prepared to shut that window if I need to.
So - I've had my second bowl of soup, added on an English Muffin with peanut butter to get some protein, taken my blood pressure meds and am heading back to bed for the night. If I'm not ready to sleep I have episodes of "The Shadow" and the "Lux Radio Theatre" that I might listen to - love those old radio plays and I found them for free on the internet years ago. When we were first together W and I would stay up late and listen to Orson Welles as The Third Man but I've never been able to get her interested in that sort of stuff again. I found that too plus his Mercury Theatre and Campbell's Soup Playhouse which I've listened to some years ago. It's amazing the stuff I stopped doing leading up to BD and after.
Have a good night everyone.
Sorry you are feeling sick. Wishing you a good night of sleep and the end of the fever.
Andrew,
I hope you feel better soon!
Perhaps time for an update that says nothing much to update.
It's been a tough week in some ways mainly because I've been ill. I'm not sure what's wrong with me but I believe it to be bronchitis. I had an attack of something similar a few years ago and W took me to the hospital thinking I was having a heart-attack despite the lack of severe chest pain. I'd had something similar for the first time a few years earlier when we were in Havana. W sat with me through the worst of it and I pushed myself to get up and about so that her vacation wouldn't be ruined. Only time and rest will make it heal (sounds familiar). When the high fever hit so did the racing mind going over and over different possible future scenarios and how I would handle them. The tool my IC gave me on our last session was something called "mindfulness". The way I interpreted it was you needed to look at thoughts as not real and just thoughts and find a way to have them move on. I used a mental image of a scrub-brush to wipe them out which would work for a while and then I'd have to do it all over again.
Those vets who come to visit will be pleased because I've actually made a plan 6 months out. My birthdays for the last few years have been disappointing to say the least. 2 years ago W and I were on vacation but at least she remembered to bring me a card. The last one was when she confirmed what she had told me drunk 2 days prior that she was leaving me. I've realized that events like birthdays, Christmas etc aren't actually all that important to W while they are very important to me as times to spend together as a family. So I've decided that for my upcoming birthday in March that I'm going to impose on D24 and her H and go down to Virginia and visit them for a few days and get her to make me a cake. I'll also try to persuade S22 to come along. W can come too if she wants
Much better than my original plan of getting blind drunk and crying a lot.
I've also done some thinking about winter, thermostat settings and snow removal and how that may be different with W not here. The tropical vacation that W and I would usually take will be replaced by the visit to D24. We have a bunch of money saved for a vacation - not sure if W is planning / expecting to dip into that to go somewhere with OM. Pre BD1 in the evidence that I have saved are comments from her to a BFF that that had been her plan at that point. I'm bracing myself for that even though that would be 5-6 months away from now and a lot could change in that time. I'm still mulling over in my mind going to the tropics alone for a week or so. Going alone will be much different than going as a couple.
On the W front the complete and absolute silence to me continues. Her Facebook is rather quiet as well although I do find myself getting wrapped up a bit sometimes mind-reading / speculation so I may have to un-follow her again. I have to remind myself that her "likes" may just be random button pushes or aimed at OM or whatever. I typed and erase what details I recall a couple of times of recent activity but they don't really matter. I'll give it another couple of days first "I can give it up anytime - honest
"
I have noticed, not sure if it's the illness that I have or what that I'm now only checking Facebook a few times a day again. This is a healthy development. I need to be looking at the real world. My visits to this site are also generally down a bit and my focus at work is better in general although this week has been tough because of the fever. I've been working from home all week and the isolation is difficult.
My mind-reading turban is still on the fritz but the feeling that "somethings up with W" have morphed into a "she's coming home soon" feeling. Probably not true and I certainly can't shape my life around it but that bump of confidence feels good. I try to be honest with myself though and know that this has no rational basis at all. I do feel though from everything I've read and my knowledge of W gained over more than half a lifetime together that the longer she has to sit quiet and "bake" the greater the odds are that she'll think of a looking at the path home. The temptation to "stir the pot" rears up though. Today's grand idea was to post Blake Shelton's song "Austin" to Facebook without comment. I didn't and surprising the temptation wasn't all that high because some of the 2X4 hits are perhaps still making be groggy.
Tomorrow I hope to be up to going to the regional fair that is being held about a 20 minute drive away. I can't say much about it because it would very closely identify my location but it will be nice to wander around and look at the exhibits and demonstrations and I plan to get there early enough to get in before the rush for parking and for the pancake breakfast. I'd hoped to be able to go with SIL2 and my baby nephew and my brother but they went yesterday. It's always weird going to these things alone. W and I so enjoyed going to them together.
I was originally planning on putting up our winter storm windows this weekend but after just washing the windows in the side porch today I felt a bit wiped. It may have to wait for another week. The chore list will be minimal I think and for a change will include no ironing because I didn't go into the office at all this week.
Journaling - nothing much happening.
I got out to the fair today and spent about 2 1/2 hours just wandering around alone. It didn't feel as weird to be alone this time as it has in the past. I exchanged some Snapchats with D24 as I went around too so I wasn't quite alone. Lots of great exhibits and I was able to have one of my "guilty pleasures" - a "street dog" with sauerkraut for my lunch. I was a bit worried that I wasn't perhaps up to so much walking yet and did get a bit tired. I kept my chore list at home limited today because of that.
I don't know how superstitious everyone else is but I'm surprisingly so especially considering that by training and inclination I'm a mathematician and scientist. When W leaned across the table to drop the first bomb and knocked over the salt I was frantically trying to remember what shoulder to throw it over before I realized what she was saying. Part of this for me too is my routine. If my routines get messed up then I think that some sort of change is happening. Going to the fair was a big change in the routine today. The bake shop had a different clerk. I then did a bunch of my errands in a different order because that made sense. The radio station I usually listen to was playing stuff I didn't like, so I tried a new one that someone at the fair was promoting. The biggest thing was that there were no red roses at the florist today and the lady who usually serves me (potential NG - in an alternate future) wasn't there either. They'd had a big order for a funeral and had to use every single red rose they had in the shop. I was flattered that the clerk who was working knew that I'd be in and was so very apologetic that they couldn't have saved me my two roses. She said that they were counting them out individually to see if they could keep back my 2. I of course didn't make a big deal about it. I'm not sure why but I suspect I'm the source of much conversation at the flower shop. The rose on my dresser will survive for a few more days but the one on my desk was very done and I now have no rose there. After CT1118's posts in the last few days those roses are even more significant now.
This combined with my "W is about to come home" feeling I've been having for a couple of days bumps it up even more. Not to the level of being hope, but almost to the level of being a crumb. Silly nonsense I'm sure probably caused by my mind-reading turban being on the fritz. On the other hand part of my snooping / monitoring of W (I know - I know) is noticing if she's not been on Facebook Messenger for a significant time. She's been offline for quite a while today which makes me believe that she's spending the day with OM. I can "almost" deal with that dispassionately since it's just a mind-reading theory thing with no actual basis. There could be lots of great reasons why she's not been online. Being with OM has been an historical one.
A couple of other positive things today. I like to buy my honey from a local apiary. They've hired a new Mennonite girl who wouldn't look me in the eye when she served me so I chatted with her a bit about my chores for the day and commented about ironing and how it was like wood-working. She perked right up and we had a pleasant talk about the subject while she smiled and looked me in the eye. I love doing mouse-extermination. The other positive bit is that a couple of people in the village, one of who had been almost angry at me and another who had actually crossed the street to avoid me after W moved out were both pleasant to me today. That was nice, they were both good friends / neighbours before all of this. Not sure if this means that W's story is getting out or not but it's good to not be shunned.
One final bit of "AndrewP did good". Being as it is the last weekend of the month I have always done up the family budget on the Saturday. Historically W and I would go out for breakfast on the Sunday and go over how we did in the current month and adjust anything for the following month's budget. For the first two months that W was gone after doing the budget I wrote her an email telling her that but it would usually include some sort of begging / pleading from me. This month, I've done the changes - no message. I know she's still looking at the family budget and will occasionally make the oddest minor adjustments since I think she uses it as a guideline for her own independent financial activities. I don't know if she'll notice the lack of a letter or not.
Well - Time to go get my laundry off the line and put it away. Re-heated chili for supper probably with a can of beer and then perhaps some NetFlix before bed. Tomorrow if I'm up to it, gardening and grass cutting. I really need to start getting the storm windows up but that will probably be pushing it a bit too much. Not sure if I'll take myself out for breakfast or not. I spent a lot less than I planned at the fair so I have a bit of surplus.
Andrew,
Sounds like you had an interesting day today. I'm glad you made it to the fair and had a good time. You were very wise to keep your chore list limited because you are still recovering from being ill.
Well, you found someone to chat to about ironing. That's funny and yet nice. We have Mennonites and Amish in my area and they are very hard workers. What do you use the honey for? To put on toast or add to a cup of tea?
I would sit back and wait to see if your w contacts you about the budget. It's a nice 180 to sit back and see what she does this time around.
Dinner sounds delicious, but I don't know how the chili and beer will get along. LOL! Tomorrow is a new day and I wouldn't push it too much. Do a few things, take a break and then see how you feel.
Please take care of yourself.
job - you sound just like a Grandmother
To be honest I have no expectation at all that W will contact me about the budget but then I've been wrong about so many things that it would be nice to be wrong about this too. Since she only uses it (I believe) as a reference for her own obligations and budgeting plus to keep an eye on me (mind reading!) I can't see her reaching out about it.
Speaking of 180s I think I've hit a significant point in my own journey. I'm not sure it's a good turn I took at the last fork in the road a week or so ago but at this point I'm somewhat comfortable with the choice I've made. Up to now I've struggled with detaching and separating myself from W. A lot of the reason why I was detaching (other than the good advice from here) was my expectation from BD1 on that "any day now" that she would forever leave my life. I've removed all of her stuff from our home office, both bathrooms, the MBR (except for some craft books at the back of a closet), the laundry room, the outside of the refrigerator (so many magnets and notes ...) and much of the kitchen. In some of the rooms I don't use there's still a lot of her "stuff" that could perhaps be tidied up but I'm not feeling any urges at all though to continue this process and continue purge her from my life like I did earlier. There are few reminders of her underfoot. A few pictures of us but that's about it. I can look at them most of the time and not feel pain or anger but instead feel affection. The stuff that W would want / need if she moves on is pretty much packed up except for 3 pieces of artwork which remain on the walls and the coats etc in the front-hall closet which would be easy for her to get to. I'm debating moving the stuff from the front porch into that closet. There should be lots of room for it.
One thing that is perhaps different in our sitch is that I believe that unlike many of us here if she did choose to ask for a D then I would let her go completely and move on alone without fighting it at all. I believe she is fully aware of this too. While I know that many people will continue to stand even after a D and in some cases after their spouse remarries, I don't see me doing that.
As I've written recently I now feel that she'll come back if only I am patient and continue to leave her alone. I also recognize that this may not happen too and like to believe that I'm prepared for that as well - perhaps better than for her coming back in fact. My earlier urges to find a NG have died down a bit as well but I do recognize that those urges are still there. I'm getting more comfortable living alone and being out in public by myself as well. There's still some awkwardness at times when encountering people who don't know about our sitch both in person and on Facebook and I just tap-dance around what I say. I'm starting to make plans a bit farther down the road as well and my focus at work while still not great has been improving.
Today I took our wedding photo out of my desk drawer in our home office and put it back on my desk. I think right now in my journey that I am healthy enough to have reminders of W and our MR around me just like I'm pretty much able to see what she's up to on Facebook without getting too wound up (watching myself on that one).
Is this the "right" path for me right now? I don't know but even though it's not a smooth path it seems to be leading out of the dark woods and not into them. My lighthouse has been built for a while now and the beacon is lit. Today is now exactly 200 days since BD1 when my world began to be destroyed. I think I've found most of the pieces of my soul and even though the glue isn't all that strong yet they're mostly back together.
Minor journaling - I had also noticed that the roses from W's grandmother's farm that we have planted in our back garden were still blooming so I clipped one of those for my desk. They are fragrant and beautiful with multiple blooms with a light yellow centre to the bloom.
I perhaps shouldn't have but the furnace came on this morning and the weather was just about perfect so I've put up my winter storm windows. This is a stressful task for me because I'm afraid of heights. The one upstairs front window is about 4'X5' and I use a rope and pulley attached to the ladder to hoist it into place. A completely calm day is required to do this safely. The outside of all windows in the house have now been washed which I usually do at the same time. I'm glad to get this job done even if it marks yet another mile-post in the year without my W.
I'm going to head out and go for a short walk after I post this as well. I know that I need to not over-tire myself but I'm fidgeting sitting. Afterwards I'll sit with the collected works of Jane Austen which I've just started. I've not read them before but I am a big fan of Patrick O'Brian and once read that his characters and Jane Austen's would get along well if they actually existed in real life. A good friend of D24's whose taste I respect is a huge Jane Austen fan which is encouraging me to give this author a try.
Early to bed tonight (put the electric blanket on the bed yesterday) and I hope to be able to give good focus to work this week. My copy of "The Little Prince" should arrive early in the week. I think I need to set aside a special evening for reading it complete with a bottle of nice wine (picked up 2 Merlot I've not tried before yesterday) and a big box of tissues.
Well, you found someone to chat to about ironing. That's funny and yet nice. We have Mennonites and Amish in my area and they are very hard workers. What do you use the honey for? To put on toast or add to a cup of tea?
job - Having grown up around the Amish gives a very different perspective than you might have from the "outside". Most of them yes are very hard workers and there is a lot of variation from colony to colony. When doing business with them you want to make sure you are on your toes. There are a few unscrupulous ones around who will for example pass off commercial produce as home grown or other sorts of things. I remember having to go with my Mother once because there was a deal she was working on but the men wouldn't talk business to a woman.
When I saw that little mouse at the honey store I couldn't help myself and dug for a topic that I thought she would find interesting and was pleased that the mouse was chased out at least for a minute. Many Amish women are actually quite strong people but this young lass was maybe lacking confidence around men especially one who was an outsider. Not sure it's a flaw or not but I believe that women while they need to be cherished and appreciated should never be in a position where they feel like or are treated as being less than men. If I can do something to make any woman feel a bit special and appreciated I've always gone out of my way to do it. Around my own W it was just a matter of course for me to compliment her, to ask for her advice on things and to treat her with respect and courtesy. I see how some other men treat their wives and just shake my head in wonder and disgust. On the other hand, they're still married and I'm not - who can say who is right? I can't see me changing to take any woman for granted or to treat them with any disrespect though. It would just be foreign to who I am and how I was raised.
Honey is a versatile sweetener. I don't put it on toast but try to have a spoonful every day either in my tea or on my porridge. Pre W I would bake biscuits and make pancakes regularly for myself. I would use honey for a touch of sweetness there as well. I don't do baking these days because that's a lot of carbs for one middle-aged guy. In my 20s eating a whole batch of biscuits was something I could handle but not now.
Andrew,
I like what I've read of your two postings today. You sound well grounded and stronger than in the past. Roses are so beautiful and smell so lovely and they do add a hint of the garden in the home when they are cut and placed in a vase to look at.
Oh, boy, you aren't tell me anything new about the Amish. They can be some very shrewd business people. They may not have a high school education, but they sure do know all about money and how to make it. LOL! In my area, they've gotten a wee bit better when it comes to the men talking business to women. Yes, the women are very strong and can work like dogs for hours on end in those long dresses and aprons.
It was very nice of you to talk to the shy "mouse". When they are young, they are taught to stand back and allow the men to discuss the business at hand. She'll get more confidence as she ages. You made her day in many ways!
Andrew, you have so much to be proud of you. You've got a good attitude and I sincerely hope that your w comes to her senses and realizes what she's going to lose if she continues down the Yellow Brick Road.
Take care.
Journaling.
I feel guilty posting here when there's nothing to post about. I'm on my lunch break right now back in my regular office for the first time in a week. A number of my colleagues are away so it's very quiet. A good friend who has been a great help to me - a fiery Latin originally from Guatemala is around and we chatted a bit this morning about some of the troubles in Latin America and the treaty being signed in Columbia. I wanted to talk about my sitch a bit but can't find any words and it's polite to listen instead of talking all the time.
My health seems almost back to normal although I still have some tightness in my chest - could be stress though. Even though I'm not getting wrapped up in revolving thoughts, W and my sitch is very much at the front of my mind - which is why I came here to write. Still silence from W. Today though I'm feeling frustrated and pessimistic. The urge to "stir the pot" is strong and I will confess that yesterday I posted a picture on Facebook of my fresh rose which included our wedding picture on my desk (the two sit side-by-side with my sculpture of Don Quixote) to do a bit of stirring. I know better than to do anything more direct and perhaps should have moved the picture out of shot or not even posted anything but I am sure that everyone reading can understand my frustration. Much better than what my heart wants me to do which is to go to her and beg her to come home again. I would hate to think that after all this time and pain that she would end up going to OM (or OM2) etc but I know that is a possible outcome as is her continuing to live on her own indefinately. I presume / speculate that the A is still on-going and that nothing has changed for her. The picture was well received by my FB friends and the wedding photo was noticed and a neutral comment made by a mutual friend of W and I - the lady who runs the bake shop who has been very kind to me.
I've written and re-written a paragraph here about 5 times. Each time struggling to get out from my mind and onto the page the fears and conflicts that I'm struggling with today along with the totally trivial bits of information that yes, I still cling to and analyze. None of it was meaningful.
PS - job - thank you for your kind words yesterday. I too hope that W will turn back toward me recognizing the value that we had together. It will be a long and difficult path for her I am sure because she must know that she would also have to turn away from OM and admit that she has made a mistake to herself and she has to do that alone because she doesn't have a community around her like I do. I'm not even sure how many friends that were with her at the start of her trip are still with her and how they would be pushing / pulling her. I expect her brother and sister to still be pushing her away from me. As always though I need to acknowledge that I have no information and no clue on what is really happening.
I'm glad I wrote this today though. Struggling with my thoughts and worries and getting them out (and then re-written 5 times) has helped with my frustration. I think I need to add to my own toolbox the knowledge that her journey is much tougher than my own.
Andrew,
This is your safe place to journal. Why feel guilty for posting when you have nothing to report? You can always post about what you are doing w/your life. That's truly what is important right now...taking care of yourself.
Journal away... I have found personally that journalling has helped although often do it in private and sometimes more often directed as if I'm talking to my W. It helps me express my true feelings to her at that point in time.
Interesting you still have a wedding photo on your desk... I too have mine along with some others, one of the family and some of when we were dating. I took them off for about a month and stuck them in the drawer but felt guilty or that they were missing so they resurfaced.
I know for a fact she has none in her office, when she switched jobs a year ago they all ended up in the home office. No surprise there...
We have ups and downs, it's amazing the type of roller coaster we are on.
Journaling
Thanks for stopping by job and PacLove and for the encouraging words.
PacLove - I had the photos in a desk drawer for about a month or so after W moved out. At that time I was living in a fear/expectation that she was going to move in with OM or tell me that she was never coming home. Instead - silence.
It's perhaps not obvious from my posts but I've been feeling "on edge" lately. There's probably no valid reason for it but it's the case. The feeling built up to a bit of a crescendo this morning to where I desperately wanted to contact W and beg her to come home.
I didn't.
I decided instead to do a 180. I've always been active - perhaps too active on Facebook and SnapChat. I know that W has been monitoring me at least on SnapChat and I presume was doing like I was to her on Facebook - looking through what's been posted and trying to mind-read what's going on. I've decided to try to take a break and go dark. I've logged out of Facebook this morning and hope to not log back in for at least a week - I'll see how long I can hold out for. I'd originally thought of just not posting anything but the temptation is too strong when I'm scrolling through the feeds.
I will freely confess that this is an experiment to see if W notices and pops her head up. To date she's not really had to make much of an effort to keep an eye on me, I was always in front of her on Facebook and when she went out of her way on SnapChat (I never sent her anything but she followed my story).
I had spent some time yesterday evening re-reading everything that I've sent her in text or email and everything I've sent S22/D24. I think there were 5 text messages and about 3 emails to W since she moved out. Most of them were of an FYI nature. In them though there was more than enough indication that I loved her and that she would be welcome home. As people like job and others have written - she knows this information and reinforcing it I've been told would do more harm than good. In the regular letters I've sent S22/D24 I've also told them that I want W to come home, partly to reassure them and to be honest, in part so that if the topic ever comes up between them and W so that they can reinforce that message. I needed to reassure myself that I've already done all I reasonably can to let her know that I want her to come home.
No 2X4s on this next bit that could be considered mind-reading / speculation please.
On the one hand I worry about her getting comfortable with her "single life", dating OM and waiting out the clock so that she can file a "no fault" D. I also worry that the more time she spends with OM with me being shut out of her life the more chance there is for that R to deepen.
Are these valid worries? I don't know. Frankly I don't even know how much if any time she's spending with OM these days. I'd like to presume that she's suffering from depression and guilt and is still struggling to find her path. She's told people (including S22/D24) that she left because she was "unhappy" but couldn't identify what she was "unhappy" about. She's never mentioned D even when she was on top of the world in June or in April after BD2 when she started being more blatant about the A to me so that tells me that at that point at least that she was leaving the option for herself of coming back.
So - I need to find other activities to deflect my attention / time that used to be occupied with Facebook. I've started the complete works of Jane Austen, have lots of radio plays and news sources.
Journaling ends.
Oh Andrew.
You were most definitely honest. I won't 2x4 you, although it all kid of needs it:)
I think the social media break idea is GREAT! Not for the reasons you are employing it, though. You are totally temp checking her and trying to reel her in. Do it because you don't want to torture yourself with mind reading. Leave it at that. I have taken breaks before which was very difficult, yet very cleansing. Difficult because I am a mom of a young one and when she goes to bed, it's my adult interaction. It keeps me engaged with the rest of the world. But hey, I took some time to get out more.
Do you get out? Reading is great. Radio is great. But do you have guy friends? If not, maybe join a club or activity where you interact with others. Spending time engaged in an actual social activity keeps me off my phone and social media totally.
So, what interests you?
Difficult because I am a mom of a young one and when she goes to bed, it's my adult interaction. It keeps me engaged with the rest of the world. But hey, I took some time to get out more.
Do you get out? Reading is great. Radio is great. But do you have guy friends? If not, maybe join a club or activity where you interact with others. Spending time engaged in an actual social activity keeps me off my phone and social media totally.
So, what interests you?
Ginger: Thanks for the wave of the 2X4 and the invitation to increase my GAL activities. Like you Facebook is my way to interact with friends and family from around the world and get that human interaction that is difficult for me to schedule in otherwise. I used to be very involved in the community through volunteer work etc however when I took my current job 13 years ago I had to give it all up. Now that I'm a single guy in a big house with 2 cats I have even less time. Through the week I get up at 4:45am, drive 2 1/2 hours to work, get home around 7:00, spend a few minutes on social media (used to be visiting with W), make my lunch, do the dishes and then go to bed and do it all over again. I usually work from home on Wednesdays and take myself out to dinner. The weekends are generally full of chores / maintenance but I will often get out to a community event, a show, a nature walk or visit with some relatives. I try to get together for dinner with friends and with S22 a few times in the month. D24 is too far away for that.
Clubs and other activities require a regular commitment of time often in the evenings and through the week that I just can't make right now. The volunteer Foundation that I used to sit on the board of directors for example would meet on Thursday evenings - I just can't make it. Other groups such as the local service clubs are even more time intensive but do great work. I've been searching for a new job that will get me a better work/life balance and the search was going well up until BD2 when I put everything on hold to work on my MR. I've been starting to reach out again and have a very good chance at a new role but without being able to make a commitment to lots of travel (which I was OK with pre BD2) or to moving (which I won't while W is still in limbo) roles are few and far between. Once I can do that then getting back into volunteering is very much on my agenda whether W comes back or not.
The Facebook break yes is an attempt to "stir the pot". I had actually stopped watching W's Facebook feed for some months only recently looking at it again. I find that I can now look at it with only feeling mildly disturbed but that is probably because in large part nothing much is happening there. This is much much better than what my heart wanted to do which would be to re-enact Marlon Brando's scene in "A Streetcar Named Desire" - even if W's name isn't Stella
This break will probably hurt me a bit and will be tough to do but at least I'll feel like I'm doing "something".
To be honest, other than missing W terribly I'm pretty happy with my life right now and with myself and don't feel much urge to ramp up my GAL process.
Journaling - Fair warning - a bunch of sappy sad nonsense, rambling self-justification and some really bad mathematics.
I've been feeling down for the last number of days. I think part of it is due to some reading I've been doing on other sites plus some of the bad news that some of my comrades here have had. There are a bunch of sites out there that are very negative about DB and MWD. On a lot of them the people who are here are considered "doormats" and weak. They also will write about not giving people second chances to cheat / hurt you but that it's best to get out right away. You can buy cute mugs and shirts from them to proclaim your "victory" over your cheating spouse. The comments sections are filled with stories of LBS who've found true love quickly while their ex spirals down into doom.
I've also done some reading / re-reading about affairs in general and their life cycle and whether they can turn into a long-term relationship. I know that my W's brother is a big believer that they can and do and very likely gave that advice to W. "It's perfectly normal" are words that I absolutely hate hearing.
There's nothing "perfectly normal" about what's going on though. Outside of this site it's almost impossible to find stories like mine where a wife will openly cheat on her husband while still living under the same roof and then after months of that go off to a little love nest but leave her husband hanging about whether she will ever come back or not. I know that this is an oversimplification of my situation and doesn't consider the h@ll that W may or may not be going through herself. Maybe because it's not "perfectly normal" for a LBS to try to fight for their MR? Perhaps so.
Does this mean that I'm weak? I don't think so but the amount of strength that it's taken to allow this to happen to me is more than I ever imagined being capable of. In my discussions with my IC, especially the first few sessions I said that I needed to find the strength to survive this and survive it I have thus far. Some days I feel like I'm in the medieval stocks being pelted with garbage and stones while the crowd mocks me, unable to move, unable to defend myself and doomed to take whatever is thrown at me. I'm not generally a passive person when confronted as a number of people here can attest to. If you had asked me before BD if I would willingly put myself into the stocks for my W and my MR I would have been unhesitating in saying yes. Now that I'm in those stocks I certainly can't be blamed for wondering if this was a good idea or not.
For some time I've been toying with the idea of writing a "Welcome to H@ll" post for this board from a newbie to a newerbie. I've often considered this place to be a self-selecting pool and the general welcome posts from Cadet and job are full of great reading but dive down into the weeds and details a fair bit and are a bit light on the actual life that you'll be leading going forward. If people knew what they were in for though I suspect a lot would just turn right around and run. Lots of people have affairs - that's a known statistical fact. Of those from what I've read, many will either end the A upon discovery or the couple will split. A much smaller number will try to win their spouse back. Of that number an even smaller set will get on the internet and search for answers and assistance. So those who arrive here are a minuscule fraction of the population. Of those who come here from what I've seen many don't hang around long. I'm sure that mining the forum database would create some very interesting statistics. Of those who are here, who take the advice from the vets and fellow sufferers, only a very small fraction of those end up with reconciliation. I'm glad that right now there are I believe 3 or 4 reconciliations in progress on the forum. But out of how many "failures"? Lots. So anyone who arrives here has already "won" in some way - they are the very very few who care enough to look for help. Those who stick it out through the anger, the pain, the disrespect, the bile and the sheer filth are true heroes. Many people here have much tougher journeys than I do and I really wonder how they can get up each morning and stay standing for another day.
Looking back to BD2 I wonder how my life would have been different if I'd tossed W out into the street. She certainly expected that to happen. I wouldn't have gone through the h@ll that I have but probably through a different one.
It does make me question though. Is W worth it? Am I? Is our MR? Why "am" I putting myself through this? I've been struggling with the answers to that regularly.
Looking back at the "me" that I was back then I know that I felt that W had made a mistake and that she would quickly come back to me and be the loving wife again that she used to be. I felt that the A would burn out rapidly with it no longer being secret from me and that the forgiveness that I gave her in April would open the door for her return. Hours have turned into days, days into weeks and weeks into months with realistically no end in sight. I don't know how this will turn out. I know that I'm W's absolute best choice (thanks Jack) but since she hasn't chosen me she presumably doesn't know that at this point. When she left she still felt that a long term relationship with OM was a definite possibility. Will she have an "awakening"? From my reading, statistically speaking she should. Statistics also suggest that she will regret leaving me and want to come back - at some point. Even though I'm a mathematician by training I svcked at my statistics courses and the way that W does math while it works well for her baffles me. For every statistic though too there are always two sides. Even a 90% chance of winning is also a 10% chance of losing. Once the horse race starts even the favourite can lose.
One largish crumb that I cling to is in fact the amount of time that this has taken. Going back to statistics, affairs tend to have a life-cycle. The longer this goes on, the greater the odds are (I feel) that the A "will" indeed burn out. Being as (I presume) the A is still a closely held secret by both of them and with W now living in the glare of her apartment over the shop one would think that they would tire of the effort that is required to keep it going and still quiet. Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this and may well be. W may indeed be an evil mastermind who has everything planned out and one day will swoop down with her lawyer minions paid for by OM and steal away our house, the remaining few sticks of furniture and the rest of my soul.
I've also been feeling the loneliness hit hard from time to time. Not the loneliness that can be relieved by good friends or being around people, but the loneliness that comes from having "my better half" ripped away from me. There continues to be a W shaped piece of my soul that is missing.
The "no Facebook" and "no Snapchats that W can see" thing continues. It's actually not quite as hard as I thought it would be. I do regularly catch myself thinking of posting something especially to SnapChat for W or wondering what W is up to. For all I know she's changed her marital status and is posting engagement pictures of her and OM although I would expect that the SIL army would start marching if that happened. I'm determined to hold out for the full week. After that, I don't know. I honestly don't expect this to have any impact on W at all and quite possibly she won't notice the lack of activity from me.
Well - that's enough for now. Thank you to anyone who made it this far or who cheated and is only reading the last paragraph.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme.
Journaling - Fair warning - a bunch of sappy sad nonsense, rambling self-justification and some really bad mathematics.
I've been feeling down for the last number of days. I think part of it is due to some reading I've been doing on other sites plus some of the bad news that some of my comrades here have had. There are a bunch of sites out there that are very negative about DB and MWD. On a lot of them the people who are here are considered "doormats" and weak. They also will write about not giving people second chances to cheat / hurt you but that it's best to get out right away. You can buy cute mugs and shirts from them to proclaim your "victory" over your cheating spouse. The comments sections are filled with stories of LBS who've found true love quickly while their ex spirals down into doom.
The "Doormat" thing I have come to believe holds true more so for us LBH's .... its an attraction thing, if she does not respect you she will not want you. This is where Boundaries, Truth darts and STFU smoothies can serve you well ... not just doing them, but allowing them to become who you are as you look internally and make the much needed changes many of us here need(ed)
I've also done some reading / re-reading about affairs in general and their life cycle and whether they can turn into a long-term relationship. I know that my W's brother is a big believer that they can and do and very likely gave that advice to W. "It's perfectly normal" are words that I absolutely hate hearing.
There's nothing "perfectly normal" about what's going on though. Outside of this site it's almost impossible to find stories like mine where a wife will openly cheat on her husband while still living under the same roof and then after months of that go off to a little love nest but leave her husband hanging about whether she will ever come back or not. I know that this is an oversimplification of my situation and doesn't consider the h@ll that W may or may not be going through herself. Maybe because it's not "perfectly normal" for a LBS to try to fight for their MR? Perhaps so.
You are correct .... this place is a collection of people who at the least can understand what you are going through and why after all the pain she caused would still want to fight for your M
As far as an A "life cycle" .... just as variable as how long a dog might live. My advice is ... its not in your control, could last another week ... or maybe 20 years its really not up to us now is it? My STBX's A has been going on I think 3-4 years now ... granted I lost count after 12 of the amount of breakups, not my circus and not my monkey to worry about.
Does this mean that I'm weak? I don't think so but the amount of strength that it's taken to allow this to happen to me is more than I ever imagined being capable of. In my discussions with my IC, especially the first few sessions I said that I needed to find the strength to survive this and survive it I have thus far. Some days I feel like I'm in the medieval stocks being pelted with garbage and stones while the crowd mocks me, unable to move, unable to defend myself and doomed to take whatever is thrown at me. I'm not generally a passive person when confronted as a number of people here can attest to. If you had asked me before BD if I would willingly put myself into the stocks for my W and my MR I would have been unhesitating in saying yes. Now that I'm in those stocks I certainly can't be blamed for wondering if this was a good idea or not.
For some time I've been toying with the idea of writing a "Welcome to H@ll" post for this board from a newbie to a newerbie. I've often considered this place to be a self-selecting pool and the general welcome posts from Cadet and job are full of great reading but dive down into the weeds and details a fair bit and are a bit light on the actual life that you'll be leading going forward. If people knew what they were in for though I suspect a lot would just turn right around and run. Lots of people have affairs - that's a known statistical fact. Of those from what I've read, many will either end the A upon discovery or the couple will split. A much smaller number will try to win their spouse back. Of that number an even smaller set will get on the internet and search for answers and assistance. So those who arrive here are a minuscule fraction of the population. Of those who come here from what I've seen many don't hang around long. I'm sure that mining the forum database would create some very interesting statistics. Of those who are here, who take the advice from the vets and fellow sufferers, only a very small fraction of those end up with reconciliation. I'm glad that right now there are I believe 3 or 4 reconciliations in progress on the forum. But out of how many "failures"? Lots. So anyone who arrives here has already "won" in some way - they are the very very few who care enough to look for help. Those who stick it out through the anger, the pain, the disrespect, the bile and the sheer filth are true heroes. Many people here have much tougher journeys than I do and I really wonder how they can get up each morning and stay standing for another day.
One could come here (And in my time a few have) and read all the threads, look for the magic bullet and spend their days compiling stats to pin point a success rate ... you are missing the point with this logic, and honestly wasting time and energy that would be best spent looking inward. DBing is getting YOU and YOUR LIFE back. If your WAS/MLCr sees all that and it sparks change that's great, but saving a M is not always the success story here. In MLCville you may begin to read long enough as I have (not only here) that is is not a 3-4 month process ... talking 5-7 years ... I personally am a solid 5 years into this the last 3 being the "Hell" years as you describe. In that time I have learned, grown,and arrived at a place I never would have dreamed possible.
Looking back to BD2 I wonder how my life would have been different if I'd tossed W out into the street. She certainly expected that to happen. I wouldn't have gone through the h@ll that I have but probably through a different one.
It does make me question though. Is W worth it? Am I? Is our MR? Why "am" I putting myself through this? I've been struggling with the answers to that regularly.
Looking back at the "me" that I was back then I know that I felt that W had made a mistake and that she would quickly come back to me and be the loving wife again that she used to be. I felt that the A would burn out rapidly with it no longer being secret from me and that the forgiveness that I gave her in April would open the door for her return. Hours have turned into days, days into weeks and weeks into months with realistically no end in sight. I don't know how this will turn out. I know that I'm W's absolute best choice (thanks Jack) but since she hasn't chosen me she presumably doesn't know that at this point. When she left she still felt that a long term relationship with OM was a definite possibility. Will she have an "awakening"? From my reading, statistically speaking she should. Statistics also suggest that she will regret leaving me and want to come back - at some point. Even though I'm a mathematician by training I svcked at my statistics courses and the way that W does math while it works well for her baffles me. For every statistic though too there are always two sides. Even a 90% chance of winning is also a 10% chance of losing. Once the horse race starts even the favourite can lose.
One largish crumb that I cling to is in fact the amount of time that this has taken. Going back to statistics, affairs tend to have a life-cycle. The longer this goes on, the greater the odds are (I feel) that the A "will" indeed burn out. Being as (I presume) the A is still a closely held secret by both of them and with W now living in the glare of her apartment over the shop one would think that they would tire of the effort that is required to keep it going and still quiet. Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this and may well be. W may indeed be an evil mastermind who has everything planned out and one day will swoop down with her lawyer minions paid for by OM and steal away our house, the remaining few sticks of furniture and the rest of my soul.
I've also been feeling the loneliness hit hard from time to time. Not the loneliness that can be relieved by good friends or being around people, but the loneliness that comes from having "my better half" ripped away from me. There continues to be a W shaped piece of my soul that is missing.
The "no Facebook" and "no Snapchats that W can see" thing continues. It's actually not quite as hard as I thought it would be. I do regularly catch myself thinking of posting something especially to SnapChat for W or wondering what W is up to. For all I know she's changed her marital status and is posting engagement pictures of her and OM although I would expect that the SIL army would start marching if that happened. I'm determined to hold out for the full week. After that, I don't know. I honestly don't expect this to have any impact on W at all and quite possibly she won't notice the lack of activity from me.
Well - that's enough for now. Thank you to anyone who made it this far or who cheated and is only reading the last paragraph.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme.
Ok ... so all that ^^^ ... you are focused more on the A, let me guess ... when the A ends she will come running back to you and all is good right? You can read all my 23 threads to see how that one works out because MLC is not about the A, the A is simply one small equation in a much larger formula (Math talk for you)
You have started to accept you are the best choice ... you have to own that thinking and present yourself that way. Affair down is a real thing and at this point that is where she is .. do not go down there with her, you are the prize and in time maybe she will wake to see that and do all she can to win you back, till then .. GAL PMA and work on you.
What will happen .. I hope for you.. is you reach a place where when and if she wakes you will have a much harder decision to make because your new life you never asked for is actually pretty darn amazing and you are not so blind to just accept that old life that was not really as wonderful as you remembered it to be ... the LBS too rewrites the history sometimes. MLC is an absolute grueling marathon but one that allows you to rediscover/reinvent yourself for a much better version of yourself that has been waiting to be let loose.
Andrew,
I dissected your post and group some things together that I will try and respond to. This may be a bit of a ramble and for that I apologize.
There are a bunch of sites out there that are very negative about DB and MWD. On a lot of them the people who are here are considered "doormats" and weak. They also will write about not giving people second chances to cheat / hurt you but that it's best to get out right away. The comments sections are filled with stories of LBS who've found true love quickly while their ex spirals down into doom.
Yes, there are many site that offer advice and different approaches. I have also seen many of the site that you probably are referring to. Here is my take.
1) Divorce Busting, is IMO, about teaching you tools to improve YOURSELF. I personally do not subscribe to the notion that ONE person can save a M. I understand the
marketing behind it. I just think it is misleading. That said, I also realize that had the marketing not been done this way – many people may never have signed up and would have missed out on what I would call a “life changing opportunity”.
2) Several years ago, there appeared to be 2 different camps on the boards. One group that was more along the line of “man up”, “throw her arse out”, “set boundaries on day one” – pretty much a much more aggressive approach. In some cases, I actually think it works. The other camp, was more geared towards…”work on yourself, detach, become the best you can be – and maybe you have a chance to save it”. I would think the MLC section of the boards is more along those lines. Personally, I subscribe to the “work on yourself” approach. Having said this, I do believe that depending on the sitch the right approach, or hybrid approach can be used. The key though….imo….is regardless of approach, the individual should….
A. Addressed the issues that you contributed to the break up of the M. Finally fix them.
B. Improve communication. I learn to listen, learn to communicate better
C. Learn to stop mind reading
D. Done everything YOU can to try to save the M – and the answer to this is very personal. Only the individual really knows.
E. Learn to be comfortable with WHO you are – on a much deeper level.
F. Learn to be self-aware.
G. Have you gotten to a place emotionally that you can make rational decision.
3) As for “finding true love quickly”. I think this is the biggest (yet normal) mistake people make. In my opionion…
1. 2nd and 3rd marriage divorce rates are so high because people do not stop to fix the issues they have, before jumping into the next R.
2. People are afraid to be alone. So they jump from one R to another – then they wonder why the R’s do not work. I think the question should be….. Do I want
A relationship OR do I want
THE relationship – there is a difference.
3. I am all for relationships – hell I’m engage right now. I do think that people are afraid to face themselves. I do think that as a society we want a “quick fix”.
4. I believe people run from or are not equipped to identify THEIR OWN ISSUES. Most will blame others, some will play the victim.
5. So I guess, you can run into the next R and maybe it will be fine….the question is….wouldn’t you want to put yourself in the best place to succeed and not repeat unhealthy patters.
Outside of this site it's almost impossible to find stories like mine where a wife will openly cheat on her husband while still living under the same roof and then after months of that go off to a little love nest but leave her husband hanging about whether she will ever come back or not.
You will not hear a lot about it, in part because people will not talk about or understand it.
For some time I've been toying with the idea of writing a "Welcome to H@ll" post for this board from a newbie to a newerbie. I've often considered this place to be a self-selecting pool and the general welcome posts from Cadet and job are full of great reading but dive down into the weeds and details a fair bit and are a bit light on the actual life that you'll be leading going forward. If people knew what they were in for though I suspect a lot would just turn right around and run. Of those from what I've read, many will either end the A upon discovery or the couple will split. A much smaller number will try to win their spouse back. So those who arrive here are a minuscule fraction of the population. Of those who come here from what I've seen many don't hang around long. Of those who are here, who take the advice from the vets and fellow sufferers, only a very small fraction of those end up with reconciliation. I'm glad that right now there are I believe 3 or 4 reconciliations in progress on the forum. But out of how many "failures"? Lots.
I believe we do not tell people it is going to be HELL is because honestly we really do not know. I mean sit back for a second….what is really hellish about YOUR sitch? She is gone (for now), It’s not like she is sleeping with OM in bed next to the living sofa while you are watching TV. What is bad about the experience is the torture that the LBS put themselves THROUGH. It is normal, the grieving process is normal. A lot of times we put ourselves through HELL. Our WAS, are just that…walk aways. The HELL is FEAR….
As for success rates. I agree with you. Chances are slim. The question though is……what if you were one of the 3 or 4 people – maybe it would not look as bad.
As for people not hanging around….most do not want to do the work. It is hard. Add to that the pressure people get from outside forces…they cave.
I also believe that many….many times….it is the LBS…that really does not want to go back. They have learned and realized that they played a role in the demise of the M, or that too much damage has been done, or that they finally regained their self worth, worked on themselves and said enough is enough. The timing of when people get to this place, depends on the person. For some it takes years, for others it takes weeks, months hell even days.
Looking back to BD2 I wonder how my life would have been different if I'd tossed W out into the street. She certainly expected that to happen. I wouldn't have gone through the h@ll that I have but probably through a different one.
You can still do it. YOU can still tell her to pack her chit and go file for a divorce. I actually would not try to stop you, my only question would be….. if you separate how you feel at the moment (emotionally), can you look at yourself honestly in the mirror and say that you gave it everything you had. If you can, dude, I will support ya.
“Everything you can” is a very personal definition as well.
Look at the marriage vows:
“In sickness and in health”
“for better or for worse”
“for richer or poorer”
“till death do you part”
I believe most people have no idea what these vows mean to them when they say I do. That is not judging, it is just my opinion.
So….Andrew, if you think you’ve done all you can, have fixed your issues – then hey do what you think you need to do for you.
It does make me question though. Is W worth it? Am I? Is our MR? Why "am" I putting myself through this? I've been struggling with the answers to that regularly. Hours have turned into days, days into weeks and weeks into months with realistically no end in sight. I don't know how this will turn out. I know that I'm W's absolute best choice (thanks Jack) but since she hasn't chosen me she presumably doesn't know that at this point. Will she have an "awakening"? From my reading, statistically speaking she should. Statistics also suggest that she will regret leaving me and want to come back - at some point. For every statistic though too there are always two sides. Even a 90% chance of winning is also a 10% chance of losing. Once the horse race starts even the favourite can lose.
Normal questions and signs that you maybe starting to get tired of this.
Eric, that post was soooo good, I think it needs to be added to the welcome message:) For real, it helped me understand some issues I'm struggling with.
Andrew, reconciliation on this board happens maybe 3% of the time. And as Eric mentioned, divorce rates for 2nd and 3rd marriages are very high because nothing was learned from the first. I personally think living the Db principles can make that 2nd or 3rd marriage divorce rate go down. I know that doesn't seem like much consolation for your present situation, but I think it could improve every kind of relationship in your wide, and that is something positive to take from this.
CaliGuy - Thanks for the visit and taking the time to read and comment. Just a disclaimer - I believe that I'm actually doing rather well and am pretty comfortable with the man that I am. Just feeling a bit blue in the last few days and wrote this post to get it off my chest and to manufacture a bit of hope for myself to help me keep standing.
I completely agree that even if the A ends that my W may choose a different path. I've known this all along. Would my MR have been in jeopardy even without the A? It probably was on a pretty rocky spot anyway. I was largely oblivious to this since as far as I can tell there was nothing I contributed to my W's crisis other than being somewhat less than I could have been which I've now addressed. The A and W's indecision on which path to take is the reason why she's not home so yes, I do think about it and know that she'll never come back while the A is active. Even if the A ends she could stay away either alone or go looking for love elsewhere. I also know that I can't do a darned thing about it. It's just a fact that I take into account and largely ignore otherwise just like if she does come back I'll have to not dwell on it but move forward.
I feel for your pain going through this for 5 years. I'm just trying to take things one day at a time and not looking for any particular timeline. I will freely confess that I don't see myself still standing in the way that I am 5 years from now. I get a lot of pressure from family/friends to set a deadline for moving on and leaving W behind but one day at a time is what I'm doing for now.
eric - Welcome back from vacation - just let me put this innocent looking turban behind the potted plant - be right with you ....
I'd hide it behind the living room sofa but W took that - it's a bit small for acrobatics with OM but you never know ...
Wow - I didn't expect such detailed responses from both you eric and CaliGuy. I feel a bit bad that I don't have a similarly long response other than "thanks" and "yup". I honestly expected no responses at all - I was just writing for the sake of writing.
eric - Yes - I am getting tired of this but I find that writing about my doubts helps re-motivate me. Counter-intuitive perhaps but many things are.
Ginger - thanks for the visit as well. 3% is a higher number than I might have thought but again - we're in a self-selected pool of people who have chosen to try which increases the odds I suppose. I'm not too worried about the overall percentages - as Jack_3_Beans so wisely told me and I have taken to heart - I'm the ONE BEST CHOICE. If you are the one - then you're not a statistic.
PS - I'm disapointed that nobody LOL'd about my evil mastermind line -
Cancel the flying monkey scene!
SH_ posted a note about this on another thread. It's so important to how I'm living my life right now and the lessons I've learned here that I wanted to share this here.
I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.
When Collins asked who didn’t survive the grueling ordeal of years in prison in Vietnam, Stockdale responded: "The optimists. They were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say, ‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.
AndrewP,
I was going to respond to your earlier question about the thought that the more time they spend together the closer they will be but it seems like you may have come to your own conclusion on that.... reality will sync in eventually with them and the bad habits and annoyances that come in a relationship will surface. The question our W's will need to ask themselves is if they prefer the OM's bad habits or ours? Is giving up what they have with their H really worth this guys bad habits and everything he comes with.... I too have the same concerns as you and I sense that the OM and R may be starting to fizzle, no concrete proof, but just a 6th sense (where was that a year ago when she was having the A under my nose and I was in a state of denial...)
Congrats on the no social stuff... I'm not overly active on that anyways so for me it hasn't been an issue so much.
I still see my W every few days as she hasn't formally moved out, that takes place in a few weeks so things will become more real then.
As for evening time - take up a new hobby! I recently started learning the guitar and am really enjoying it. The adult conversation at night is certainly missed but I try and get out at least once or twice a week to meet up with a friend.
I was going to respond to your earlier question about the thought that the more time they spend together the closer they will be but it seems like you may have come to your own conclusion on that.... reality will sync in eventually with them and the bad habits and annoyances that come in a relationship will surface. The question our W's will need to ask themselves is if they prefer the OM's bad habits or ours? Is giving up what they have with their H really worth this guys bad habits and everything he comes with.... I too have the same concerns as you and I sense that the OM and R may be starting to fizzle, no concrete proof, but just a 6th sense (where was that a year ago when she was having the A under my nose and I was in a state of denial...)
PacLove - Thanks for the visit and words of encouragement.
I can't honestly say that this will happen between my W and OM because I have absolutely no insight into what is going on with them. I know that my W wasn't always easy to live with and I'm know that I was a challenge from time to time but what made our R work was that we never really complained but just accepted it as part of the package. If the statistics etc are right then yes - the A will fizzle out as reality sets in but as I wrote, there are always exceptions.
The complete and utter lack of knowledge of what is going on with her and OM is both frustrating and a relief. Because I can't know what's going on I find that I don't tend to stress about it. When I write about it here it's more in the context of "gee - I wonder ...". On the other hand not knowing means that some bomb could be forming of which I'm completely unaware - so I put on fresh underwear every day and and am diligent about checking the mail. Only time will tell - or perhaps not. I would be hurt and sad and probably angry if W moved in with OM or married him but I think I'm in a place right now where it wouldn't shatter me like it would have only a few months ago.
Oh well - back on the bike.
I finally got an answer from S22 about Thanksgiving which is the weekend after next here in Canada. I'm going to do the 3 hours of driving each way to go and see him on the Sunday. I'd thought about pushing for him to come home and trying to do up a nice meal with him but the thought that W would also try to get some of his time and that I'd have to deal with a hand-off just turned my liver cold. I frankly don't want to have to deal with W until she's ready to come out of her tunnel. I have no clue if W is intending to spend time with him or not on that weekend. If she's really in MLCer land maybe she thinks it's still summer
I have a call (finally) planned with D24 this afternoon. I use Skype hands-free and chat with her when I'm driving home. It's been a few weeks since I last spoke to her (lots of SnapChats in between though - love that girl) and I need to mentally prepare myself. I did pretty good on my last call but broke down right at the end when I was saying goodbye. I'm going to ask her about coming down in March for my birthday - I hope she says "yes" and she probably will.
I've been thinking more about the Stockdale Paradox and yes, more and more this is how I feel that I'm now living. I realized this morning that today was one of those "deadlines" that I'd set previously when I thought that W had her first place until the end of September. It would have been a "logical" time for her to have made up her mind. As I told people a long time ago when this was on my mind was that at the end of September I would need to decide if I was going to act on my own or if I was just going to flip the calendar page over to October. It looks like the calendar page will be turned and nothing else done. Helping out my fellow prisoners here helps keep me focused and standing.
The social media blackout is a bit of a double-edged sword. It makes me even more blind to W while at the same time quite likely having no effect on her at all. I am confident that I can carry it through until at least Monday making it a full week and may carry it a bit farther from there. I'm finding that I'm not really missing Facebook as much as I thought I might but from the multiple emails Facebook has been sending me, it misses me. The single electronic footprint I have about W is now just when she accesses our cloud-based bookkeeping software. It was her pay-day yesterday and she usually goes on presumably to check to see how much she needs to send to S22. She hasn't connected to it for 4 days. Is she crawling farther into herself like I was speculating recently? Is she just busy or have things figured out and no need to check? Did she take the week's vacation she had talked about back in June (unlikely - she doesn't get vacation pay)? No way to know and that's probably enough time speculating on it.
As job (and others) have suggested, I need to just move on with my life and perhaps, one day she'll pop her head up and look for the path home.
This weekend is going to be moderately busy. The first weekend of the month has always been the time when I do a more thorough clean in the house. Being alone there's both more and less to do. I do more things such as dusting, sweeping etc but with just me and the cats there's less mess especially since I try to keep on top of general tidiness. I wasn't able to get any roses last week so the one in my bedroom is very sad looking. Hopefully fresh roses will be available this weekend. I checked the schedule and there's a hockey game on Saturday night so I may go out for that again. It's a cheap fun night.
It's been quiet on the forums for the last few days - I feel a bit odd being one of the more frequent posters. Hopefully everyone has patience for my blather.
AndrewP,
Wow! I had, up until this point, never heard of the Stockdale paradox! Oh man, this will certainly be incorporated into my GAL and thinking!
I always felt the "dates" for where certain things should be happening didn't make any sense, and felt arbitrary. But I would keep doing them, also at the advice of well-meaning friends. Moving over here to MLC was an acceptance of the long-haul nature of my sitch, but today, seeing that I should remove arbitrary dates, and an amazing story to back exactly why, is just perfect. Thank you.
I also feel like I should pick up your flower ritual too. It sounds so lovely. And it would be, like it is for you, just for me when I come home
Hi Andrew, yes I found the Stockdale paradox helpful too in my sitch. Also Viktor Frankl - Man's search for meaning - helped with perspective.
I'm so glad to read about the FB blackout. I always feel FB isn't a great place to be during periods like these. But always remember with your actions - do what works for you - and don't worry about your spouse 'noticing.' They may, they may not - but as long as you are living in the way you want to live and moving forwards, it doesn't really matter if what you do is noticed - you are just growing into who you want to be.
Hope you have a good weekend and glad you have holiday plans confirmed :-)
Hey AP, all. All caught up with your sitch now and very interesting reading if was too! I think you've got some great convos going with the vets on here and I've learned lots too!
Well done on keeping yourself busy! Also I'm always very surprised that your W stays so close to you... :0)
There are a bunch of sites out there that are very negative about DB and MWD. On a lot of them the people who are here are considered "doormats" and weak.
I think the biggest "victory" is going on to lead a happy, successful life. I wholeheartedly believe that the thoughts of MWD give the tools to achieve that. The added benefit is that I think it also gives the best chance to R as well, but thats just me.
If people knew what they were in for though I suspect a lot would just turn right around and run.
And do...what...exactly? There is no running away from this.
I wouldn't have gone through the h@ll that I have but probably through a different one.
Just curious what you think would be different.
There continues to be a W shaped piece of my soul that is missing.
I remember feeling like my ex was a memory foam imprint on me. Over time, the imprint lessened and eventually I realized that I didnt want something or someone to just fill in that hole...I wanted someone to make a different, better imprint. I completely believe that the best way to reduce that imprint is to GAL. I like hearing about how you were going to the fair...I think thats a great step. Keep it up.
I honestly don't expect this to have any impact on W at all and quite possibly she won't notice the lack of activity from me.
The point of what you do should not be to impact her. It should be to impact you. Get through this week. Then start again next week.
darknes - My old sparring partner! Thanks for stopping by.
I wouldn't have gone through the h@ll that I have but probably through a different one.
Just curious what you think would be different.
Well - If I'd tossed W out on her @ss then I would have disgraced the love I have for her. Our children even though they are adults may well not have understood. The divorce itself probably would have been rather painful because it would have been for cause which always causes angst and a lot of cost. I'd also be facing daily doubts about whether I did the right thing and I'd still be alone and would never have the possibility of holding W in my arms ever again.
There continues to be a W shaped piece of my soul that is missing.
I remember feeling like my ex was a memory foam imprint on me. Over time, the imprint lessened and eventually I realized that I didnt want something or someone to just fill in that hole...I wanted someone to make a different, better imprint. I completely believe that the best way to reduce that imprint is to GAL. I like hearing about how you were going to the fair...I think thats a great step. Keep it up.
Thanks for that. One thing I knew even before this started when W would tell me that she was no good for me and that I should find someone else was what I told her then and what I still believe. My heart and soul have imprinted in them the shape of W's. No one else could replace that or fill that same spot. If there ever is someone else, that spot first needs to heal / fill whatever and then a new spot could be made.
The point of what you do should not be to impact her. It should be to impact you. Get through this week. Then start again next week.
One day at a time darknes - that's the best I can do for now. One day at a time. Consider me chastised for tapping on the tunnel that she's in. I never expected it to "work" but it has at least temporarily eliminated the distraction of me looking at her and given me more time to post here
You've got to admit, it's much better than my first idea of going over to her apartment in my undershirt and re-doing Brando's scene from A Streetcar Named Desire ....
Have you considered selling the house so you can get out from under the chores and maintenance and so you could move closer to work? It seems like that might free up time for GAL activities and allow you to more actively chart the course of your life.
Note I am not suggesting you close the door to your wife. If she returns, it will be to you, not to a house.
(And an active man who charts his own course is more attractive anyway.)
Rose888 - Thanks for visiting and the suggestion. I know that you want me to focus on being more attractive - I do still have a rather manly chest at least and I think my butt is much nicer than it was 55lbs ago
This is my
home and I have no interest at this point in leaving. Pre BD, W and I were starting to toy with the idea of down-sizing perhaps into a town-house and at that time had decided to stay here as long as we could maintain the property and I see no reason to change that.
Work/life balance has been a problem for me for quite some time as I'm sure you've noticed. I am in fact semi-actively looking for a new position much closer to home and have had a couple of interviews that I'm waiting to hear back from. I've been in this community for more than half my life, raised my kids here and have formed deep roots. Additionally, my family has been in this area for almost 200 years and we stretch far and wide.
Finally, to be honest, there's not a huge amount of equity in the house. Practically speaking to move from here in my rural area to a more urban area would cost me on a monthly basis more than twice what it costs me to stay here plus I would forever have a mortgage / rent. Our mortgage here will be paid off in just a handful of years. Even if I was to move "closer to work" - work not being all that important to me - I would perhaps save 2 hours / day at the absolute most, go from a lovely community where I'm known and cared about to living in a box in a stack of other boxes and be even more alone.
It's interesting that so many people after BD immediately sell off the marital home. In fact even my SIL would tell me "you've got to get out of that place" - but no. This is my
home and here I will stay and make my stand.
Fair enough. :-)
I certainly wouldn't want you to give up your feeling of home. So far, I've mostly heard you talk about the house in terms of the amount of work it is, and how it is too big for a single person. And how your commute makes it impossible for you to be involved in your community or GAL. (I work from home. Saving two hours a day in commuting time seems life-changing to me and absolutely worth moving for, from my perspective.)
I'm not so focused on you being more attractive as I am on helping you see that you are only in limbo if you allow yourself to be. I use the attractive bit to counteract the response I expect from you about not wanting to push your wife away.
Rose - yes - 2 hours more per day would be good. But what would I fill those 2 hours with? Here I have friends, family, activities. If I were to move then I would have to start all over at 52 rebuilding my life and connections. The time I have here is much more fulfilling even if it is less in actual hours than it could be.
Interesting that you expected a response about not wanting to push my W away. I'm not sure I understand that. I'm in a limbo as far as any future relationships may go be they with W or someone else yes. While I think I'm now healthy enough for W to come back, I'm not healthy enough I think for a new R with anyone else. Too much W related baggage that I would have to deal with first.
I'm leaving W alone on her own journey. If I were to sell the house, yes, I would absolutely need to reach out to W and involve her in the process. It's jointly owned and legally I can't do anything without her agreeing but that's not what's keeping me here. I'm sitting here in my housecoat about to start my daily errands looking at the rose on my desk next to our wedding photo. I'm home. I'm comfortable. No need to disturb W at all with this. I did have to evict the cats from the home-office. They were arguing about which one got to sit on my lap. I think they're pretty lonely too.
I do hope and wish that she will want to come home again but at this point in her journey I'm not sure if she knows where home is. Just let me put on this innocent looking mind-reading turban for a moment (Hi eric!).
One big thing from W's past I think is the whole concept of home. Her father was a very self-centred person (as well as quite wayward) who would make unilateral decisions all the time. This included moving his family multiple times for no good reason. According to W he would literally come home and announce that they were moving in a week. Because of this W ended up living in multiple houses growing up gave her difficulties putting down roots I think. She was connected to her cousins and had a couple of good friends but didn't have a really wide circle of friends despite being charming and outgoing. One of the moves was done in shame after her much older sister got pregnant (W was I think 4 or 5 at the time). She still remembers the fighting and the shame quite clearly. Another of the moves was done when her father decided that he was going to run a marina while still keeping his full-time job. Well - that meant that the rest of the family had to pick up the load. That enterprise went bankrupt and guess what - they had to move again in shame. W was at the time in her early teens I think having already moved at least 4 or 5 times. Her parents had to borrow money from their parents to buy the new house and W ended up living in a really crappy room in the basement where she stayed until she left home. People that they had borrowed money from who never got repaid literally crossed the street to avoid them. At the same time she started acting out a lot, drinking, sex (presumably), smoking pot etc. Lots of screaming matches with her parents from what I've been told. Interestingly the MIL grew a bit of backbone and refused to move again until they were forced to move into a nursing home a couple of years ago - part of what I think precipitated W's crisis. Nobody though except perhaps W's father had any sorrow or loss at selling that last house. W's father only regretted that he had to move into the nursing home I think.
About W's Father, even though he had a good blue-collar job he always aspired to be rich and tried to hang out with rich people as much as he could. He was also exceptionally wayward which was an open secret in the family.
For me, I grew up on a farm across from my grandparents who were on the farm that we originally got from the crown when we settled in the area. I was surrounded by cousins and neighbours who all knew my history going back generations. We had our problems yes, but over-all it was a good stable environment. I knew my place in the world and was proud of it even if it was a modest place.
When W and I got married we had a chance to move to the area that I grew up in and buy a much bigger home than we could ever have managed in the city. W was always so proud of the fact that we never moved, were able to have a great home and raise our children with the stability that she felt she never had. Our house was always a quiet place too. Rarely were voices raised although sometimes the laughter could get a bit loud. Contrast that with the homes of W's family where they were always loud with people trying to talk over each other. Fights (both verbal and occasionally physical) were common. Whenever we would go there I was always happy to come home to our quiet while my ears rang. I believe that W felt similarly. She certainly did say that she felt that way. Every trip to see her family was followed by her complaining about them for the entire trip home.
After BD2 one thing that was a trival source of conflict between W and I was when she would refer to our home as "my" house (AndrewP's that is). I would correct her and remind her that it was "our" home. It must have been a horrible wrench for her to leave here especially since for the first while she would have gone past the house daily. She probably still goes past it at least once or twice a week.
I'm not sure how interesting this was to you Rose888 or anyone else, but it's part of my story that's not been told as yet so I've told it.
Thanks again for the visit and I hope you have a great day.
AndrewP, one of the things I put my foot down about when my H left was that I was not going to be moved out of my home!
My H suggested we sell it so I could get a more manageable mortgage and although it is tight for me to pay it ( he gives me no financial help whatsoever!) the upheaval of having to sell whilst dealing with his departure might have finished me off! I love my home and even if I do eventually have to sell it in the future hopefully I will be in a much stronger place emotionally than I am at the moment...
AndrewP - My brother in the Queen's North. Man, page 6 of this thread was latent with so much gravity I lost 2 inches of height by the weight of reading it. Caliguy's and Eric's posts to you were so GD good I cannot even stand the heat of the kitchen.
I had clipped some things you said while I was reading, but those statements have been well dismantled at this point. I will just summarize. Other sites: of course these places say move on, lay down ultimatums, or F that B. Of course those site say that - it is the easy path brother. MWD does address this in the first chapter of MR book: people do not believe in M anymore. H3ll, I did not believe in M until my M had it's throat cut, I just thought it was what you were supposed to do w/ the person you loved.
I agree with Eric on the paradox, we cannot mutually accept that one person can save the marriage AND accept that we are unable to control other people. Continuing in my agreement, what DB does put first and foremost is the focus on betterment of the self, clearly you understand of me that this has been a theme of my fight. I too have read, watched, and participated in other sites. The majority do state that you have to fix your $hit and own it, but that is a statement, maybe two. DB community enforces it with a trudgeon, and this is what we all here who seek health, have adopted, if you will, my interpretation "me before all others, only then may others successfully be with me"
I was S for 4-5 months before I found DB world. I ran quickly to poon town with other women trying to leave spouse behind. I experimented with dating, pick-ups, "being friends" - you know this, you read my sitch. It all sucked, I was not ready. Thank all above that I realized this before I threw down a straight flush an decided I had won the pot. I am DELIBERATELY choosing to be alone right now, to work on me, to post in the DB community, to speak with you, to find and be GAL, to make permanent changes, to become self and know/understand/love permanent self- I know you are too. Not believe, not hope, not wish, but know, you are too. I know you are seeking the same thing. Plus, a humble MF'r like me does not exist on those other sites, I am a man you would be a fool to walk away from, why would you spend your time there anyway?
AndrewP, you are still in the fight. [CT1118 bows deeply in your direction].
AndrewP, you are still in the fight. [CT1118 bows deeply in your direction].
Thanks CT1118. Today I feel like I've been worked over by a rubber hose - nothing has actually happened, but it's Sunday - always a tough day and as I'm sure you could tell from my recent posts I am in fact struggling to figure out why / what / how for myself. Imagine if you will of a boxer sitting on his stool after 5 very tough rounds. I don't know if you've ever fought competitively (I used to be a wrestler in high school) but even those short rounds can take a lot out of you. I'm wiping my head with my towel and trying to figure out - do I want to stand up? Do I want to throw my towel into the ring and walk away? I know that the "right" thing to do is to stand up and fight again and that's the sort of personality I have - I don't walk away from a fight - but you can't blame a guy for thinking about it. I have no idea how many more rounds there are to go, I don't know if my opponent has sneaked some weights into his gloves, and I don't know if perhaps joining the ballet might have been a better career choice - I understand someone around here might have a spare tutu.
While I have this post open I might as well journal. Sorry that it's rather rambling, disjointed and out of order. That's the way I'm feeling today.
Nothing happened on the W front, nothing was expected to. Still total silence. I ran into W's boss at his shop across the street and the fact that I missed W and wanted her home spilled out when he asked how I was doing. I've been feeling "the lonely" a fair bit lately - to be expected I suppose. And no - before people start chiming in with GAL and get out and around people, this isn't the sort of lonely that can be fixed that way. I'm sure pretty much everyone reading though knows what I mean. I don't expect the message to be passed on to W via her boss at all so no harm done I suppose.
Last night I ended up not going to the hockey game in part because I felt slightly under the weather and didn't want to re-trigger the illness I had a couple of weeks ago. I stayed home and watched Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire instead. It brought back happy memories. W had started a Harry Potter marathon with me and we watched a movie every week or so together until the A started and she no longer had any interest in spending evenings cuddled up on the couch with me. A good movie though - I enjoyed it and remembering good times with W was nice.
On Friday I had called D24 and had a pretty good chat with her. She is very much in favour for me coming down to visit her and her H in Virginia in March on my birthday (not sure if I journaled this already). Much better than my original plan of sitting home and getting blind drunk. My prior birthday was when W confirmed that she was indeed intending on leaving me. We had a discussion of the difference between Girl Guide cookies (Canadian) and Girl Scout cookies (American). D24 had been a Girl Guide here and that was actually a big part of W's identity as well being a leader for many many years. One of several things that she got progressively angry about and walked away from leaving the girls and fellow leaders in the lurch. Half the boxes in the front porch are stuff that she should have passed on to the new leader. Anyhoo - since there were no longer Girl Guide cookies easily available in the house and since I have no clue on what sort of "stuff" might be going on between W and the remaining leaders I checked and ended up driving about 45 minutes to a local fair where there were girls selling cookies. I picked up a nice autumn wreath for the house too - the leaves are just about to be in full symphony here. Since I was in the neighbourhood I also popped in for a visit and a cup of tea with SIL1 and my oldest brother being careful to not talk about W around him - he's very angry and refuses to be in the room while she's discussed. SIL1 continues to believe that W has a master plan to file for D suddenly and unexpectedly once the 1 year clock runs out. I agreed that was indeed possible but expressed doubts.
Saturday I was also able to pick up my fresh roses - didn't count the thorns and flirted a bit with the lady working there. She seems nice and as I've written ad-nauseum I have a lot of doubts some days about my future path. Absolutely nothing has been started, not even going out for coffee. I'm not even completely sure she's unattached. She does know that W has left me though but not any of the details which are private anyway.
Laundry was mostly done yesterday but the heavy cleaning never was done. I'll do the basics next weekend. To be honest, with just me and the cats, there's not a lot of heavy cleaning to do.
Woke up this morning feeling blue and not wanting to get out of bed. I did eventually, packaged up the cookies for D24 and mailed them off - costing about 50% more for postage than the actual cookies.
I had decided that I needed to get out of the house and took myself out to breakfast at the place where W and I used to go. No tables when I arrived so I headed towards a nature reserve that W used to say she would go to for "walks" when in fact she was going to see OM. Another place reclaimed for myself. I had a nice hike for about an hour and got some fairly nice pictures. Since D24 is still wearing shorts I sent her some SnapChats of the autumn leaves and scenes. I then went back to the restaurant, got a table and was able to have a fairly nice lunch accompanied by Jane Austen. I stopped on the side of the road by a marshy area and gathered some wild grasses and wildflowers that I then used at home to decorate the house a bit. W did that in the first few years we lived here and I decided that I want the house to look nice and so decided to do some decorating of the outside. It looks quite nice.
My ironing is finished a short while ago - it takes me about an hour and half to get through it - I'm not a pro and I take my time. I find that mindless mechanical tasks like that relaxing and always have. Lately it's been feeling more like a chore than a release though - not sure what's going on in my brain these days. I may bring this up on my next visit to my IC next week.
Soon it's going to be time to make supper - grilled cheese sandwiches and creamy tomato soup - one of my favourite comfort foods that W would make. I've never tried to make a creamy tomato soup before - hopefully it will work out OK.
My social media blackout continues - I'll probably end it quietly on Wednesday. Facebook misses me and has sent me a bunch of emails to remind me of all the fun I'm missing out. SIL1 told me that W is still pretty quiet. I'm not feeling as tempted to lurk / look as I was.
I had been thinking of announcing my return to social media with a post like this one - almost certainly a bad idea and W would know it was aimed at her - getting away from the "noise" was what she said her reason for leaving was. Since this is a safe place - although often judgemental
I'm going to write it here instead. I'm not going to bother making any announcement at all instead - just quietly resuming posting probably at the more modest level that I've been doing for the last number of weeks prior to me taking this 10 day break.
Some of you may have noticed that I've not been around for a while. A very few of you may also be aware of some of the personal challenges I've been facing that have caused me problems with both my physical and mental health. I decided to take a break from all the "noise" around me and take some time to think hard about my future and my priorities.
During this time I've done a lot of reading and a lot of thinking. Two odd works that have influenced my thoughts are the book The Little Prince which taught me about what unconditional love means and why it is important. The other is the StockDale Paradox (look it up - very interesting) which reinforced my belief that while good things don't always come to those who wait, having a a positive view of the future and holding it firmly but letting the future unfold at it's own pace can have great results.
We now return to our regular agenda of silly cat videos, pictures of flowers and obscure news articles.
AndrewP - I did spend a couple of years in various martial arts, I should have stuck with it. I miss it. And yes, people did hit me for real in that and I hit back for real in that. So I do appreciate what you say about aggressive bursts really taking the toll.
It's too bad to read you are in the dumps right now, but as you know, this thing is a cycle. I can see you are in a cycle, while you made a troubling number of references to your W above, you said something pretty amazing which caught my eyes:
Another place reclaimed for myself.
There are a few places I enjoyed, but know my W went there w/ OM and that still bothers me - of all the things I have learned here and of all the self issues I have conquered, I had not considered the 'reclaim'. Thanks, I like it a great deal. I also like that you got out today, tried to take yourself for food, and spoke with a woman you find attractive. Sehr gut!
Listen - on social media. Are you able to just go back on without any fanfare? Post a picture of yourself doing something and leave it at that? Why the need for the fanfare - what is your motivation or your goal? And I am not talking about towards your W, for you, what is it. Who is your audience with that statement above?
Listen - on social media. Are you able to just go back on without any fanfare? Post a picture of yourself doing something and leave it at that? Why the need for the fanfare - what is your motivation or your goal? And I am not talking about towards your W, for you, what is it. Who is your audience with that statement above?
CT1118 - I'd forgotten your martial arts background which would have included competition. My own son medaled in a regional kick-boxing tournament some years ago but then gave up all martial arts because he didn't like hurting his friends. He has a very kind soul - I like to think he gets that from me.
I'm a bit curious about your comment
troubling number of references to your W - yes, I do mention her a lot when I post here, but this is my safe place to do that. For me being here has much less to do with self improvement and self discovery that it does for others such as yourself. This is my place to talk about my heart, my love and the journeys that W and I are both on. If I was looking only for self-improvement I'd be elsewhere. Outside of this place and the still constant thoughts that spin through my brain there is nowhere that I can relieve the pressure of those thoughts so it may seem that I am still obsessing over W (and probably am in reality) but that's because this little white box I'm typing in is my "talking about W place". Or where you meaning something else?
Here, I'll freely admit that the social media thing was a deliberate "pot stirring" attempt by myself to see if I would get a reaction from W. Stepping away from the mouth of the tunnel as it were to see if she pops her head out. Any "fanfare" would also have been aimed at her - and counter to everything that I've done so far and even before the vets chime in, yes, a bad idea. I'm sure we all toy with bad ideas on a regular basis so I don't feel too bad because realistically speaking this was only toying, not actual action. I also recognize that it very likely had absolutely no effect. It did help me a bit I think with my own detachment. I'll probably start posting again on Wednesday - I miss being able to share my life with semi-random strangers outside of this place not to mention the close friends and family I connect to on Facebook. I haven't decided if I will "unfollow" W again or not.
I've found my attitude towards W changing in the last couple of weeks and I'm not sure I can describe it well. I can still find the love and devotion that I feel for her but don't feel the same burning need to see her. If I turn left out of my driveway on my way to work I could end up driving past where I believe she is living. I've been turning right with a lot less resistance. It's as if I know that she's not quite "done" yet and I rather feel like I don't want to see her until she is.
Even though it's contrary to the Stockdale Paradox which I believe in, I've been finding myself thinking about the future and what I'll do if she doesn't come back by for example 1 year following BD2 at which point we would be eligible for a no-fault divorce. Presuming that she's not re-surfaced by then would I contact her and ask her if she wants to be released? Will
I want to be released at that point? I don't know the answers to those questions. It's still 6 months away so no rush. I can't see me pushing her in any way prior to that. I still have a lot of healing to do which is complicated by the fact that there is uncertainty about what she'll decide. Even though I could be completely wrong - and often am - there is no conceivable way that she
can't know that she is welcome to come home. I do worry that tactically speaking that this is a mistake - many of the stories I read here about reconciliation do seem to be triggered by the LBS giving up in some fashion. Again though - I'm believing more and more that she is on a journey that she needs to complete before coming back otherwise she could well do this all over again if she comes back too early because of pressure from me.
Again, in violation to the Stockdale Paradox there are a few key dates coming up. Thanksgiving, and Christmas specifically. I'm trying to figure out my own plans with Thanksgiving (both Canadian and American) already covered. Family times like these are tough I'm sure on all of us LBS but must be even tougher (mind reading!) for our spouses. My powerful mind-reading / future predicting turban suspects that W will be spending at least Thanksgiving with either her sister or brother or possibly both. I can see her siblings teaming up and having a large multi-family dinner to put the spotlight on W. I can also see them blind-siding her with it (it happens - long story redacted). No clue if she also reached out to S22 to get together for Thanksgiving. There is a chance because it's sort of the traditional time for it for her to start integrating into OM's family at Thanksgiving as well. No way of knowing. I did overhear W talking to her mother a few weeks prior to move-out saying that she would drive down to Virginia - again - a prime time to introduce OM to D24 and her husband. In my talk with D24 there was certainly no indication that she'd heard anything from W about American Thanksgiving though as when I confirmed that I would "not" be coming down she mused about doing something with her husband's family instead.
If W does start integrating into OM's family she'll pretty much have to abandon her own children and siblings. Not sure if she's thought of that or not (again could be wrong). OM has three grown sons plus numerous grandchildren and I would presume all regular family events would be around them. Being dragged over to W's family to be made a spectacle of (the usual result when someone is introduced to them even under normal circumstances) or having to go most of the way across the continent to see D24 would require I expect a lot of persuasion on W's part.
As others have written here though - not my circus - not my monkeys (my monkeys fly!).
Anyhoodles - that's probably more than enough for now. I feel a bit bad writing this sort of drivel but it gives me a release.
Wow, that was a whole lot of mindreading a scenarios revolving around the holidays! How your W will have to abandon her own family because OM's family is big? please, don't make up scenarios that you seriously have no clue about. Once your start doing that in your head, consciously stop, and begin to do a task, read a book (not self help) do something that stops the scenario playing.
So, you went on your FB hiatus to stir the pot with W, then you came off of it with a grand announcnemnt post trying to stir the pot with her.......btw, you said you doubted it made any difference, but be careful in this big FB announcemtns, because youc an stir the pot the wrong way with her. She knows it's aimed at her and that everyone and their mother is seeing it, and she may not take that a good way.
When you seem preoccupied with you W, It's not just in the words you post here in the little box. It's the actions like these you are making outside of this little box.
This is not to say it is not normal to have this preoccupation, especially after such a long term marriage, I couldn't imagine. I had it with my ex because my baby was involved. But I really had to recognize it to make a real effort to minimize it. not make an excuse when someone points it out. Well, I did that for a while too, until I got beat over the head with 2x4's enough. I'm glad the beaters were persistent, because peace began to leak in when I let go of my preoccupation.
Wow, that was a whole lot of mindreading a scenarios revolving around the holidays! How your W will have to abandon her own family because OM's family is big? please, don't make up scenarios that you seriously have no clue about. Once your start doing that in your head, consciously stop, and begin to do a task, read a book (not self help) do something that stops the scenario playing.
I know W's family quite well so I do actually have a number of clues as I mentioned in my post. What I don't have is a working future predicting turban or crystal ball. My lines of inquiry were more around some of the "exit points" that W could have in the near future from her tunnel. Where I have no clue is whether she's likely to take any of those that I mentioned, others I know nothing about, or stay hunkered down in the tunnel like I presume she is right now. My post was just random thoughts - not looking for input specifically.
So, you went on your FB hiatus to stir the pot with W, then you came off of it with a grand announcnemnt post trying to stir the pot with her.......btw, you said you doubted it made any difference, but be careful in this big FB announcemtns, because youc an stir the pot the wrong way with her. She knows it's aimed at her and that everyone and their mother is seeing it, and she may not take that a good way.
Ginger - there's no grand announcement planned or made - sorry if you got that impression. It was an idea I toyed with and then dropped.
Well, I did that for a while too, until I got beat over the head with 2x4's enough. I'm glad the beaters were persistent, because peace began to leak in when I let go of my preoccupation.
Realistically only time will allow me to completely let go of my W. To be blunt - I don't want to let her go completely and "move on" - that's why I'm here - to prepare myself for the possibility that she may come back. Writing here allows me to pour my pre-occupation for her onto the screen and out of my brain giving me relief for a while.
Sorry Andrew, I didn't know you weren't looking for input.
I'm going to shush because I don't think you are quite ready to hear what I have to say.
Keep doing what works for you.
Sorry Andrew, I didn't know you weren't looking for input.
I'm going to shush because I don't think you are quite ready to hear what I have to say.
Keep doing what works for you.
Ginger - thanks for that. I'm sure you mean well but I've had more than enough whacks with the "detach" and "GAL" and "stop thinking about her" 2X4s along with lots of pokes with the "move on" stick which I presume is what you had to say (but that would be mind-reading
). I know all that already and am doing the best that I can taking things day by day.
A lot of times when I write here journaling it's to relieve the pressure within me to tell my story. Most of here are "fixers" and want to help and "solve the problems". Buried somewhere I think in AmyC's posts was a comment that I quite loved. It says something to the effect that when I talk about my day I want you to listen. When I tell you my car is broken I want you to fix it
It's not just women who feel that way - even us guys sometimes just want to talk.
My bicycle wobbles, and it has a squeaky wheel, but it's rolling down the road reasonably well.
It just so happens when you journal on a public forum, people can see things you can't, and it's not a matter of me being a fixer or not. This site is generally for help. So people will help where they might see something you don't. It's just kind of how it works around here:)
I will clarify,though, I'm not poking you with the "move on" stick at all. It's the move forward stick.forward is very different from moving on. It's not anyone saying you are "doing bad" or not "not doing well" it's observations and help congruent to the purposes of these message boards.
But I get the message loud and clear
Andrew ... Just reading along .. I had to digest it for a bit.
Curious are you reading any books lately? I was not much of a reader prior to BD and all this but my journey required I change and a few recommend readings helped me along the way. Specifically in areas I really needed some help.
Andrew
For me being here has much less to do with self improvement and self discovery that it does for others such as yourself.
Based on the above, I sense that you believe that you do not need/or have areas that you may need to improve on. Maybe I am wrong. The comment of “for others such as yourself” – seemed to be to a bit mind reading and a little holier than though type statement. I do not believe you made the statement in a negative way perse. It does though come across as if you feel that you have no areas of improvement. Do you normally communicate that way? Is that how you spoke to your W?
Did your W ever accuse you of being dismissive? If so, is that something you think you might need to work on?
Here, I'll freely admit that the social media thing was a deliberate "pot stirring" attempt by myself to see if I would get a reaction from W.
Is this sort of passive aggressive behavior something that you feel that you need to change?
I also recognize that it very likely had absolutely no effect.
Although this is mind reading….is this the reason why you did not post on FB?
I'll probably start posting again on Wednesday - I miss being able to share my life with semi-random strangers outside of this place not to mention the close friends and family I connect to on Facebook.
Posting on FB hoping that your W will see it or not posting believing that she will not see it – really does not address the root issue, which is why are YOU so reluctant to just BE YOU? If you want to post to let family and friends know what is going on or joke about stuff – I do not see the harm. EXPECTING your W to see something or hope that she does is – manipulative.
Just be YOU.
I haven't decided if I will "unfollow" W again or not.
If you unfollow her she will not know. If you unfriend her she may. Either way – you need to do what YOU want to do. Stop trying “tactics” – just be YOU.
Presuming that she's not re-surfaced by then would I contact her and ask her if she wants to be released? Will I want to be released at that point? I don't know the answers to those questions. It's still 6 months away so no rush.
I agree no rush. I will say that something conversation need to take place. If you feel that you have done everything you can, if you feel that you address any issues that your brought into the R…well then you may feel that you need to have a conversation with your W. That is your call. The “tone” I get from your post though is that you do not feel like you need to change anything and maybe you might just be right on that one.
Again though - I'm believing more and more that she is on a journey that she needs to complete before coming back otherwise she could well do this all over again if she comes back too early because of pressure from me.
1) I would not take any responsibility of her coming back. If she does, then she will do it when and if she feels like it. Regardless of if she is ready or not.
2) So I guess the question you really need to answer is…..do you want to ask a question that you may not be ready for the answer too.
3) I also believe that regardless of IF she comes back or not – you have some feelings to deal with. That is my unprofessional opinion.
If W does start integrating into OM's family she'll pretty much have to abandon her own children and siblings. Not sure if she's thought of that or not (again could be wrong). OM has three grown sons plus numerous grandchildren and I would presume all regular family events would be around them. Being dragged over to W's family to be made a spectacle of (the usual result when someone is introduced to them even under normal circumstances) or having to go most of the way across the continent to see D24 would require I expect a lot of persuasion on W's part.
1) Regardless of what happens…..your kids will love their mom. Period.
2) You might be surprised at your children’s response. Yes, it will take time for them to adjust – chances are they will adjust. I just hope that if they do, you will not alienate them.
3) Subtly or not hoping your children do not embrace OM is normal – acting on it though is a separate issues altogether. Do you really want to create the tension within the family? And before you tell me that you did not initiate it, which I understand…I do believe you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Ultimately, you want your children to be a peace with both YOU and your W.
Most of here are "fixers" and want to help and "solve the problems".
I am not actually trying to fix or solve any problem for you Andrew. I am pointing out what I see and to provide you with what I think may be an objective view. I respect your view and if you would prefer I can keep my comments to myself.
I do not need a response to above Andrew. If you are looking for feedback…just give me a holler.
Andrew ... Just reading along .. I had to digest it for a bit.
Curious are you reading any books lately? I was not much of a reader prior to BD and all this but my journey required I change and a few recommend readings helped me along the way. Specifically in areas I really needed some help.
Actually I'm currently reading Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen. Based on CT1118's recommendation I also read The Little Prince. I'm historically a huge reader but found a bunch of my passions got curbed leading up to BD and especially after. I'm not sure why but perhaps as I was getting drawn into codependency with W as her depression got worse and worse? I'm trying to find some of those passions and peace again with moderate and I believe growing success. I used to be a huge fan of nautical fiction, especially the books of Patrick O'Brian and a few similar authors along with biographies of some historical naval figures.
And yes I've read DB plus a few other books like 5LL.
eric - thanks for the visit. I'm very much not perfect - I am indeed human with my own flaws most of which I think I'm aware of.
Andrew
For me being here has much less to do with self improvement and self discovery that it does for others such as yourself.
Based on the above, I sense that you believe that you do not need/or have areas that you may need to improve on. Maybe I am wrong. The comment of “for others such as yourself” – seemed to be to a bit mind reading and a little holier than though type statement. I do not believe you made the statement in a negative way perse. It does though come across as if you feel that you have no areas of improvement. Do you normally communicate that way? Is that how you spoke to your W?
Did your W ever accuse you of being dismissive? If so, is that something you think you might need to work on?
Pre BD, W never had any complaints. Post BD when she was scraping for reasons she was leaving she did mention that she thought I would talk down to her from time to time after having too much to drink. And yes - from time to time I can certainly be a bit of a pompous @ss. I try not to be but it does slip out occasionally, even here
Her other main "complaint" was that I thought too much of her and had her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with that (this was before I knew about the A). I know full well that I'm not perfect and ignoring the fact that perhaps she was re-writing history there was truth to what she said. Heck - I'm not even all I could be nor am I back to the AndrewP that I was perhaps 2 years ago who was a pretty great guy with buckets of self-confidence. What I was trying to say though was that if I was
solely interested in self-improvement that this site would not be where I am making my home. I'm here mainly because I want my W to come home and know that for her to come home successfully that I need to be ready for her. Part of being ready is to heal myself and improve myself. Makes sense? Otherwise I'd be subscribing to Tony Robbins and going to SIL2 for fitness training.
Here, I'll freely admit that the social media thing was a deliberate "pot stirring" attempt by myself to see if I would get a reaction from W.
Is this sort of passive aggressive behavior something that you feel that you need to change?
I do feel guilty about it as well as frustrated that any sort of push into W's world is a hugely bad idea if that helps. I rarely indulge in agressive behaviour of any sort - this was a rarity. I will stand my ground but won't push onto other's turf.
I also recognize that it very likely had absolutely no effect.
Although this is mind reading….is this the reason why you did not post on FB?
Well - it's only partly mind-reading. W did not pop her head up to check to see if I was OK which would have been the only possible outcome I could have generated. The reason for not posting was that I don't like doing passive-aggresive moves - as W mentioned to a friend in one of her messages that I saw during the initial snooping when they were wondering if I knew about the A - "AndrewP is usually quite direct".
I haven't decided if I will "unfollow" W again or not.
If you unfollow her she will not know. If you unfriend her she may. Either way – you need to do what YOU want to do. Stop trying “tactics” – just be YOU.
This isn't about "tactics" which unfriending would be. This is about trying to stay detached. If I find myself getting drawn in to fussing about what she's up to then I need to unfollow to protect myself.
Presuming that she's not re-surfaced by then would I contact her and ask her if she wants to be released? Will I want to be released at that point? I don't know the answers to those questions. It's still 6 months away so no rush.
I agree no rush. I will say that something conversation need to take place. If you feel that you have done everything you can, if you feel that you address any issues that your brought into the R…well then you may feel that you need to have a conversation with your W. That is your call. The “tone” I get from your post though is that you do not feel like you need to change anything and maybe you might just be right on that one.
And I don't need to tap on the tunnel and try to force any decisions from her either even though the lack of decision from her is a source of pain for me.
Again though - I'm believing more and more that she is on a journey that she needs to complete before coming back otherwise she could well do this all over again if she comes back too early because of pressure from me.
1) I would not take any responsibility of her coming back. If she does, then she will do it when and if she feels like it. Regardless of if she is ready or not.
2) So I guess the question you really need to answer is…..do you want to ask a question that you may not be ready for the answer too.
3) I also believe that regardless of IF she comes back or not – you have some feelings to deal with. That is my unprofessional opinion.
Absolutely. There's a lot of pain and anger that I have that I will need to deal with and I have no clue how. I also expect that W will have a lot of pain and anger herself plus other issues. We're going to need help. Lots and lots of help as well as love, kindness and patience. One thing that I read which I've taken to heart - I think it was either you or Jack who wrote it is that I need to be very humble if she comes back and I certainly am prepared for that at least. The people here at least I hope can understand the emotions that I will struggle with if she comes back. One of the big ones I will be feeling will be gratitude which will help with the humble.
I am not actually trying to fix or solve any problem for you Andrew. I am pointing out what I see and to provide you with what I think may be an objective view. I respect your view and if you would prefer I can keep my comments to myself.
I do not need a response to above Andrew. If you are looking for feedback…just give me a holler.
eric - I feel that everyone who takes the time to comment on my thread deserves a response. You have been one of the guideposts / lighthouses that have guided me through these deep foggy woods and I cannot let you pass by without notice.
Hi Andrew,
Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.
Hi Andrew,
Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.
pinn - Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right. There were some things that I believe W didn't like but never mentioned that I have taken action on. I've significantly cut back on drinking. The LBS diet has also in many ways improved my physical health and appearance. I also take more care of my own appearance and dress, not just when I am out but all the time.
There are some things that W didn't like though that won't change.
She didn't like the fact that I didn't like some of her friends or family members. Sorry - but I won't start liking people just to please someone. I would always be civil with them.
She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.
She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).
She didn't like how I would get passionate about an issue, get involved and try to make a difference or at least make a public stand regardless of what was popular or what other people thought.
She didn't like that I would occasionally suffer from depression, especially seasonal depression.
She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.
There's probably more, but that's all I can think of quickly.
On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws and tries to see the true beauty within his wife and children and all the people around him. He will make sacrifices for those he loves and for what is important to him putting the welfare of others before himself. He has a dry sense of humour and loves sharing a laugh. He has a manly chest and a nice butt (after the LBS diet especially)
Hi Rose!. He tries to see the good and the value in all people no matter their station in life.
I think I've written elsewhere but feel that this is really important. I'm trying to be the best AndrewP that I can be. Not the best husband for W, the best AndrewP. If, after W completes her own journey she doesn't want that AndrewP for a husband, then that's her choice.
Hi Andrew,
Just a quick thought. You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned? This takes time and requires deep thought but I think it is a great exercise. I can almost promise you that there were issues that she never mentioned but you can deduce. In my case, there were no complaints and I was "the greatest husband". It wasn't until I really sat back and thought about things that I saw the flaws in our marriage and in myself and in her to be honest.
pinn - Thanks for stopping by. You are absolutely right. There were some things that I believe W didn't like but never mentioned that I have taken action on. I've significantly cut back on drinking. The LBS diet has also in many ways improved my physical health and appearance. I also take more care of my own appearance and dress, not just when I am out but all the time.
There are some things that W didn't like though that won't change.
She didn't like the fact that I didn't like some of her friends or family members. Sorry - but I won't start liking people just to please someone. I would always be civil with them.
She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.
She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).
She didn't like how I would get passionate about an issue, get involved and try to make a difference or at least make a public stand regardless of what was popular or what other people thought.
She didn't like that I would occasionally suffer from depression, especially seasonal depression.
She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.
There's probably more, but that's all I can think of quickly.
On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws and tries to see the true beauty within his wife and children and all the people around him. He will make sacrifices for those he loves and for what is important to him putting the welfare of others before himself. He has a dry sense of humour and loves sharing a laugh. He has a manly chest and a nice butt (after the LBS diet especially)
Hi Rose!. He tries to see the good and the value in all people no matter their station in life.
I think I've written elsewhere but feel that this is really important. I'm trying to be the best AndrewP that I can be. Not the best husband for W, the best AndrewP. If, after W completes her own journey she doesn't want that AndrewP for a husband, then that's her choice.
What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective. For example, would she describe it as "sharing your passion with her" or would she describe it as "getting obsessed with a topic and lecturing me about it nonstop so we can't ever talk about anything else"? Would she describe your behavior to her friends as "civil" or would she say you are coldly formal and make them feel uncomfortable in your home?
There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.
You've been telling us you weren't interested in working on you, but I didn't really understand until I saw this post.
What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective. For example, would she describe it as "sharing your passion with her" or would she describe it as "getting obsessed with a topic and lecturing me about it nonstop so we can't ever talk about anything else"? Would she describe your behavior to her friends as "civil" or would she say you are coldly formal and make them feel uncomfortable in your home?
There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.
You've been telling us you weren't interested in working on you, but I didn't really understand until I saw this post.
Rose - thanks for stopping by. My W never talked to me over the 27 years of marriage about any issues she may have had with me. She's been completely silent to me since she left. I've certainly tried to look at myself from the outside which is difficult for anyone but I certainly can't mind-read what issues she may have had so I honestly have no idea what her perspective would be. How could I? Trust me, I have given this a lot of deep thought.
Yes - there is a "take me or leave me" attitude here. I'm not going to change
just to please my W who isn't even here to be pleased. I especially won't be making changes to who I am to satisfy some vague guesses that I may have about what she may or may not find appealing. That in my opinion is being a door-mat trying to pretend to be someone / something you're not just to please another person. I do want my W to come back to me as someone that she can respect and love which she did for at least 26 1/2 of our 27 years together. Why would I try to become someone else? As I mentioned, I quite like the me that I am and I believe as I said that my W did as well. Even from her friends and after she moved out I've never heard any complaints of substance about me that she has made. And yes, one of my W's complaints about me over the years was about my high level of self-confidence - please note that I didn't say arrogance because I feel that I'm not arrogant. There is a difference in my mind.
With all that said I do disagree that I'm not working on me. I am and always will be a "work in progress". We all change over time and I certainly have changed in this journey but unfortunately not in all ways for the better. I'm a sadder and less trusting man that I used to be. That I'm working on. My self confidence has indeed taken a hit and I'm working on that too. My ability to focus for a period of time has diminished and I'm working on that. I'm also taking ownership of things in the past that were the domain of my W such as all the cooking, cleaning, and making our home look nice. In each of those other than the cooking (W was a very good cook when she put her mind to it) I am doing rather well and if I do say so myself am doing a better job at it than W did with the proviso that it's easier cleaning up after one person and 2 cats than 2 people, 3 cats and a dog (one of our cats died just before W left).
And here I thought that a man who was comfortable with himself would be "attractive" to you
There are good men out there who make great husbands. I like to think that I'm one of them. What happened to W to make her fall in love with OM and then leave is still a mystery to me. I can put the blame on peri-menopause or MLC or any number of things but I can't possibly
know.
Andrew,
No one wants you to become someone you are not. Just trying to get you to see things from her perspective.
You said you want to be ready for when she comes home. So maybe, it's good to think about what Rose said, because that could have been her perspective. If she ever does come back, maybe it's something to be addressed, and you can understand maybe how something may have looked to you, vs. how it looked to her and compromise on how to handle those things. This does not mean change who you are. Changing how you handle situations and differing opinions or views doesn't change who you are to the core.
Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but
please how could I possibly
know?.
Trust me, I have indeed given this a lot of thought. I've also asked friends and mutual acquaintances. Maybe I could get you and your D to move in with me for a few months and point out my flaws?
It's a big house, lots of room for everyone. I believe you have horses? They could go out to my youngest brother's farm which is not far away.
I don't want to end up like my W seemed to be after BD1 when I begged and pleaded with her to tell me "why" she felt she had no choice but to leave, scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons, looking for any possible imperfection or flaw and trying to polish it bright.
Before you ask - here were her reasons for wanting to leave:
- She didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home
- she may be like her father but as a couple we're nothing like them and we've
never fought / bickered / nagged at each other. We did have some arguments in our early years but they were always civil because they were being held in front of the kids - they in hindsight were probably rather funny to watch
- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing
- Sometimes when I complimented her it sounded insincere
- Yes, I'll agree with this - I was trying to help her feel good about herself. Perhaps misguided but I "never" would say anything that wasn't positive and always tried to find positive things to say to / about her. It did require a stretch on rare occasions.
- I put her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with it
- I adored her, of course she was on a pedestal but I was very aware of her flaws. I just never complained about them because they didn't matter enough to me. You accept the
whole person when you marry them.
Other things she mentioned:
- She was a far better person for being married to me than she would have been otherwise because she tried to live up to my high standards.
- She never intended to have an A - it was accidental (I interpreted this as she never intended to fall in love with OM - you can't get naked and have sex multiple times over the course of weeks and months "accidentally")
I know you and Rose and others are wanting to help me be all that I can be and I
do appreciate it. Dashing around and making changes and trying to fix things that may not be broken isn't a good use of my energy which I need to spend healing.
Minor side-story which illustrates my point. I was talking to my oldest sister a few days ago who just lost her H after a multi-year battle with illness that left him progressively more disabled. Through the later years of his illness and especially after his death she threw herself into "good works" and bettering herself through enrolling in courses etc. Standard GAL stuff. She's a well respected volunteer and as such ends up getting more and more calls on her time leaving her little time to form good friendships / relationships with actual people. She's also very burned out and has constant stress from the grief that she's never been able to deal with - to the point where she may have to go on medical leave and some pretty serious medications. Her IC has been pushing her to take it easy and take time to heal. Good advice I think.
I do indeed want to be ready for when my W comes home, if she ever does (having lots of doubts about that recently). But in my mind, a big part of the way I need to be ready is not by being a wonderful manly man with wide-ranging interests and a buff body (it is looking pretty darned good these days though). No - I feel that what I need to be is a man who is confident, strong and compassionate who is able to be the shore that she can rest on after her own much more difficult journey so that we can both heal together.
Makes sense?
Hmm, I've been watching on the sidelines here but...whenever a lot of countering and justification is going on...that's a good time to sit back and have a good think about where you are at...
JMHO of course Andrew - but food for thought I hope my friend - and kindly meant too :-)
Oh Andrew.
No, my daughter and I would not like to move in with you and point out your flaws. That's what you aren't seeing. I am not pointing out your "flaws" Nor am I calling these things "flaws". I certainly get no joy out of pointing out others "flaws" No none is saying go out there and perfect yourself physically and change everything about you to meet her standards at all. I believe we accept a person as a whole also. Of course there are things you couldn't possibly know, but I don't know that you are so motivated to understand if she comes home.
I am sorry if you feel like I'm just pointing out your flaws and I'm telling you to become perfect. That is not what I am trying to express to you.
And no, no horses here. Or dogs. Or cats. And our ish just died.
Ginger - I really have no clue then what it is you and Rose are trying to tell me. Honest Injun.
I hate to take your time but I appreciate the fact that you seem to care deeply about what it is that you want me to understand but that I am obviously failing to understand.
You say I don't know that you are so motivated to understand if she comes home. I would pull the very stars down from the sky just to see my W smile at me one more time. Trust me, you would have to search very hard outside of these forums to find anyone who is more motivated to do whatever it takes to help my W heal and be happy again as part of our family.
We've established that I honestly do not know what dis-satisfactions my W may have had with me or our MR outside of those I've listed in this thread. She was a deeply unhappy person towards the end starting around our 25th wedding anniversary when our kids moved out and peri-menopause hit (coincidence - perhaps). Her unhappiness and anger at the world around her grew and grew over time as did her engaging in more drinking, hanging out with younger female friends and accepting the friendship of OM who she described to me as a great guy who she would have drinks with but who was "safe". She never expressed any anger or unhappiness with me except over minor things like me pre-heating the stoneware in ignorance. As of the last New Years Eve she was a devoted wife who was very proud of always being faithful (it was a common thread with her because of the infidelities of her siblings and father). When she would vent and spew about her co-workers, or the national leadership of the youth group she volunteered with, or her parents and siblings I would sit and validate (I knew how to do that even before I got here).
So please - if you can put it into simple words that a man like me can understand - please - tell me what it is you think I am missing.
PS - I'm sorry to hear about your fish. A pet is part of your family. I lost my dear cat after a long struggle just before move-out day. I actually think that one of the reasons that W stayed as long as she did was so that I wouldn't have to deal with that grief on top of the grief of her being gone.
Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but please how could I possibly know?.
How could you know ??
Mainly because several people here, including myself, have given you insight on how you present to other people.
And it is far more important to you, to be correct, than it is for you to actively listen to them..
That, is how you would know....
Trust me, I have indeed given this a lot of thought. I've also asked friends and mutual acquaintances. Maybe I could get you and your D to move in with me for a few months and point out my flaws?
It's a big house, lots of room for everyone. I believe you have horses? They could go out to my youngest brother's farm which is not far away.
I don't want to end up like my W seemed to be after BD1 when I begged and pleaded with her to tell me "why" she felt she had no choice but to leave, scraping the bottom of the barrel to find reasons, looking for any possible imperfection or flaw and trying to polish it bright.
Before you ask - here were her reasons for wanting to leave:
- She didn't want us to end up like her parents bickering in a nursing home
- she may be like her father but as a couple we're nothing like them and we've
never fought / bickered / nagged at each other. We did have some arguments in our early years but they were always civil because they were being held in front of the kids - they in hindsight were probably rather funny to watch
Why do you think that she felt that she didn't want to argue with you ??
Maybe because of some of the same reasons that you present here ?
That it is more important to be right, than to listen ?
When I read your posts, typically the ones that you reply to others...
I get the sense that you are trying to talk your way out of something...
Were you like that with her ?
- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing
You just did the same to Ginger...
How many beers have you had today to cause that ?
- Sometimes when I complimented her it sounded insincere
- Yes, I'll agree with this - I was trying to help her feel good about herself. Perhaps misguided but I "never" would say anything that wasn't positive and always tried to find positive things to say to / about her. It did require a stretch on rare occasions.
Why do YOU think that it sounded insincere ?
- I put her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with it
- I adored her, of course she was on a pedestal but I was very aware of her flaws. I just never complained about them because they didn't matter enough to me. You accept the whole person when you marry them.
Did she
want to be on a pedestal ?
Living up to those high expectations surely was exhausting for her...
I know you and Rose and others are wanting to help me be all that I can be and I do appreciate it. Dashing around and making changes and trying to fix things that may not be broken isn't a good use of my energy which I need to spend healing.
I think that you protest too much, and are looking for something major to fly your flag over.
Andrew, you have a really good grasp of DBing. However, I can assure you that you don't have it perfected. None of us do.
And to reiterate what you have already said, IF you think that you are perfect, and don't need to take a look into anything, then you are being pretty pompous in your view of DBing.
Most of us that have ended up here, are typically pretty good people, with a strong moral code.
Most need to look inward and self reflect, and become self aware of how they present...
None of are typically bad people, who are out to hurt others on a regular basis. Most of us just needed to tweak some stuff, and make adjustments to help us make better decisions, and to become better partners for OUR future...
Where are you really in that process ?
I do indeed want to be ready for when my W comes home, if she ever does (having lots of doubts about that recently). But in my mind, a big part of the way I need to be ready is not by being a wonderful manly man with wide-ranging interests and a buff body (it is looking pretty darned good these days though). No - I feel that what I need to be is a man who is confident, strong and compassionate who is able to be the shore that she can rest on after her own much more difficult journey so that we can both heal together.
Don't overthink this...
There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence...
There is a fine line between compassion and condescending...
Being ready, is what side of those lines that you are on....
Andrew
Ginger - I really have no clue then what it is you and Rose are trying to tell me. Honest Injun.
I hate to take your time but I appreciate the fact that you seem to care deeply about what it is that you want me to understand but that I am obviously failing to understand.
I’ll give this a try and see if I can shed some light on what Ginger and others are trying to illustrate.
Hmm, I've been watching on the sidelines here but...whenever a lot of countering and justification is going on...that's a good time to sit back and have a good think about where you are at...
First…shout out to Sotto who pointed out what I had seen in your post.
Here is another clue to what we are trying to say to you…
From Rose - What I find interesting about this list is that it is still told from your point of view. It is not reflective of an attempt to see things from your wife's perspective.
And I believe Rose is a women…here is a women perspective….
There's definitely a "take me or leave me" quality to the list, rather than the impression of a spouse who is trying to understand the marriage from the other person's perspective.
Andrew – Consider that “tone” is very hard to determine when someone is writing. Lacking is the physical cues and mannerism that I believe are critical to communication. That said….
Post from PINN - You mention the few things your wife actually complained about during your marriage. Have you taken the time to really think about the things that were problems that she never mentioned?
I believe it is a statistical fact that women communicate VERY differently then men. What it appears that PINN is trying to say is that maybe YOUR W did not know how to communicate to YOU in a manner that you could have understood. I believe what PINN is saying is to step back and try and think about how you communicated with your W and how SHE may have felt. What you might see (and hey maybe you will not)…is that she did not feel safe or did not believe you would “understand her”.
Let me try and articulate what I see…..
Post BD when she was scraping for reasons she was leaving she did mention that she thought I would talk down to her from time to time after having too much to drink. And yes - from time to time I can certainly be a bit of a pompous @ss. I try not to be but it does slip out occasionally, even here
“scraping for reasons” – How does really sound to you? Think about….it is imo a bit dismissive. It is almost like in your opinion she did not have a reason. Based on where YOU find yourself – I think she did.
“she thought I would talk down to her” – IMO, replace “thought” with “felt”. Her statement appears to be how she felt. On one hand you acknowledged it; however, you then blame “beer” for this. That is NOT taking responsibility. That is not taking time out to really think about this statement. In part…because maybe deep down inside you do not feel it is relevant. At least that is how it comes across when you respond (this could be a “tone” issue).
“I can certainly be a bit of a pompous arse” – You acknowledge this – yet I do not see it changing. How you respond to other posters, the quickness that you respond to people that post on your thread leads me to think….how much thought is Andrew really giving these point. I think not much. Why? Cause I think you really feel that you are for the most part fine. And hey like I said before that is okay.
Her other main "complaint" was that I thought too much of her and had her on a pedestal and she was uncomfortable with that (this was before I knew about the A).
I read this and my ex actually said the same thing to me. What I came to realize is that really she meant the exact opposite. Think about it….on one hand you talk down to her on the other you put her on a pedestal. I suspect what she was trying to say and maybe did not know how to….was IF you indeed put her on a pedestal, why do you talk down to her.
Every sitch on here is different, yet at the same time there are a lot of similarities. In my case, I came to finally realized that what my ex was saying was TRUE. I did talk down to her. When I realized this I had to ask myself WHY. The answer is what brought about change in ME – and I think that is what others are trying to get you to see.
Heck - I'm not even all I could be nor am I back to the AndrewP that I was perhaps 2 years ago who was a pretty great guy with buckets of self-confidence.
Look at this statement…..is “self-confidence” more important that understanding…than compassion? I am not saying that this is what you are saying I am saying that the “emphasis” on “self-confidence” is something that I believe is an indicator on what you feel/believe about your W. Add to that….that you assume that she liked the Andrew of 2 years ago. Maybe she didn’t. Honestly it does not matter. IF you liked that Andrew, then go for it. I believe though that deeper thought and honesty within yourself might (notice I didn’t say will) give you a different answer.
I'm here mainly because I want my W to come home and know that for her to come home successfully that I need to be ready for her.
Simple question….if she knock on the door today and said she wanted to come back home – what would you say/do?
She also didn't like that I would follow my own path and do things such as wearing bow ties that she didn't approve of.
I am all for being true to yourself – standing your ground as it relates to bow ties – is/was that the mountain that you wanted to die on? Can you see how she may have interpreted your position?
She didn't like how I would get wrapped up in new interests and dive into them and learn everything there was to know about them and want to share that passion with her (she was quite tolerant of it).
Have you rephrased this in…..”women speak” – have you considered that she was trying to say something else. I am not asking to mind read what she was thinking…rather…look at it from HER perspective…if the roles were reversed how would YOU feel if she did the same? Is that what you would want in your partner (maybe you do and if so, nothing is wrong with that – just that maybe she wanted different)?
Notice how you said “quite tolerant of it” – think about it…if you were dismissive, a bit of a pompous arse….what could she say to you to change it. Maybe she just “deal with it” until she could not. Once again, I am NOT saying to change YOU…that is unless…you wanted to be more understanding, more open, less dismissive.
She didn't like that I disapproved of smoking pot. I would never tell her what she could or could not do but I think she felt constrained by knowing that I would disapprove.
Funny – totally okay for you and bow ties – not okay for her and pot. I am not condoning the use of pot, nor and I saying you were wrong – what I am pointing out is…..that I do not believe you viewed her as YOUR EQUAL – chances are….she felt it too.
On the other hand there's a lot to like about AndrewP. He's reliable, loyal, caring and trusting. He loves deeply and passionately and can overlook flaws
“overlook flaws” – Ya know it is funny…..words that people use. I’ve said to others that some of what DB teaches is around communication. I want you to consider which one “sounds” better.
I “overlook people flaws”
Or
I accept people the way they are.
Which one sounds better and WHY?
At the end of the day Andrew…you need to like who you are. If you do….then do nothing…if you do not…then please take more than 5 mins to read this and respond.
Mach1 - thanks for taking the time to post. Crap - I'm soon going to be on another thread the way this is going. This seems to be going around in circles with people saying "look here" but I just can't see what they're pointing at and they can't describe it to me in a way that I can understand. It
must be important because so many good people are spending time and effort to point it out to me but I'm just not
getting it.
Ginger - I don't mean to sound dismissive and I'm not wanting to be but please how could I possibly know?.
How could you know ??
Mainly because several people here, including myself, have given you insight on how you present to other people.
And it is far more important to you, to be correct, than it is for you to actively listen to them..
That, is how you would know....
Mach1 - I give up on this. I've tried listening but I'm just not hearing. I've tried asking questions but am not understanding the answers.
Why do you think that she felt that she didn't want to argue with you ??No clue. I never argued with her, she never argued with me.
I get the sense that you are trying to talk your way out of something...Nope - I'm trying to understand. I present the facts as I understand them and then get what appear to be platitudes and vague generalizations in response. Sorry - but that's how it looks at this side of the screen. Even in your last post I'm not reading anything substantive or actionable other than
Well - we've already told you what to do. I do recognize that I have a personality that is not good at reading other people - a known fact which I've accepted and one that W has known for our entire time together. I do know that I lack "emotional intelligence" and work very hard at compensating but it is in fact just compensating and not a true skill.
You just did the same to Ginger...
How many beers have you had today to cause that ?Now that's just mean. I'm just trying to understand. When I don't understand something I explain what I "do" understand and ask for clarification.
Why do YOU think that it sounded insincere ?Because there were indeed times that I had to look hard for something positive to say when she looked like she was feeling down and I wanted to cheer her up.
Living up to those high expectations surely was exhausting for her...Undoubtedly - she never commented on it before though. She would say that she was a better person for having known me instead. And by high expectations it was only on a moral basis. I never expected her to be "June Cleaver" and she certainly wasn't and neither was I Ward (dating myself here).
And to reiterate what you have already said, IF you think that you are perfect, and don't need to take a look into anything, then you are being pretty pompous in your view of DBing.I'm the first one in line to say that I'm not perfect. It is however possible I believe to be happy with yourself despite knowing that you aren't perfect.
Where are you really in that process ?Opinions seem to differ on that
Being ready, is what side of those lines that you are on.... I think I'm pretty much ready for W to come back. I still have a lot of healing to do though.
Machs post – 35 minutes and 5 secs
Andrew response – 3 mins and 42 secs ago
Andrew – how much time I really taking to digest what people are saying? Cause based on your last response…it took all of but 31 mins. 31 mins to read, process and respond.
You say you are trying – IMO, 31 mins…is NOT trying.
- I would sometimes talk down to her especially after a few beer
- Yes, I'm a bit of a pompous ass but never intentionally - working on that bit and the beer is cut back to practically nothing
You just did the same to Ginger...
How many beers have you had today to cause that ?
Now that's just mean. I'm just trying to understand. When I don't understand something I explain what I "do" understand and ask for clarification.
No, not really...
The "but" in the "but never intentionally" gave you an excuse to do it whenever you felt like it...
YOUR excuse was the beer...
Fair question there....
What it also did, was for you to ALLOW yourself to sidestep the question, and put the blame on something other than yourself...
You want it explained ?
There it is....
eric - Yes - I'm just reacting and not necessarily thinking. I'm also finding this dialogue quite stressful because I
know that people are trying to say something important to me that
I'm not getting. I'm the sort of person who has a
need to understand and I'm not. I've also spent my entire lunch hour plus extra time that I'll need to make up some hovering over this thread reacting and responding.
One of the big challenges with a forum like this, just like with email is it is so very hard to have a true
dialog. We can't pick up the context and emotion resulting in mis-understandings and confusion (at least on my part). We end up writing long novels (at least I do) that perhaps go off into tangents and explorations that distract from the original issues and questions.
I do want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post. I do feel that we are all (including me) spending far too much time right now taking individual statements apart and dissecting them word by word. Those dissections appear to have created their own Frankenstein monster out of the assorted bits and pieces that have been snipped out and then re-assembled.
I know that you all mean well and I do in fact appreciate it more than you can know. This place has been a literal life-saver for me. I feel badly that so many good people are honestly trying to help me and are believing that I'm resistant. I'm not. I welcome other perspectives even when I don't agree with them. It may not seem like it, but yes, I do. My rapid responses are in fact because I continue to be hungry for
answers. I've learned that for many things that there are in fact no answers and in the case of this dialogue - no answers that I seem to be able to understand. Rest assured though eric that I will in fact go back and re-read these pages multiple times over the next few days. I'm not sure I'll get anything more out of them though.
Just to go back what appears to be a few pages on this before we started on the operating table.
- Yes, I'm working on me but I'm pretty happy with the me that I am.
- I have no clue as to what my W was unhappy with and I've searched hard inside myself for answers. Yes there were a number of what are to me minor things that may or may not have been minor to her. Without being able to ask her ourselves we can't know what she thought. Mind-reading is not a skill that any of us have.
- I like to believe that I am at least close to being ready for W to come home. I also believe that I may still have a long wait for that but could be wrong. I sincerely hope that I am.
Simple question….if she knock on the door today and said she wanted to come back home – what would you say/do?
After a strong hug I would say "Welcome home. Let's be a family again."
You are hungry for answers, but the answers are really in our posts. Take a breather. Read our posts a few times. Don't REACT! Take the needed time to understand what we are trying to say to you.
Every hear the saying "listen to understand, not to respond?"
A scenario to marinate on:
I have told you my ex left me right after I gave birth to our daughter (after going through IVF) for his A partner. The A began in my pregnancy (found this out about 2 years post bomb). I mean really, how can a man actually justify doing that? I didn't think I did anything wrong that deserved that. As time went on, I spent some time here, I still stand by me not deserving that or doing anything WRONG. He was absolutely, completely in the wrong. When I told people he was leaving me they all said the same thing "what? I thought you would be the one to leave him!" (he treated me poorly, everyone saw it. But that doesn't mean that there was nothing to learn or change. Through this journey, I learned a lot of different ways how I could handle situations, relationship conflicts, communication, and so forth. Did any one thing I did cause him to do what he did? No. But I did do growing and learning every step of the way.
Right now, I am not "fixing" myself. I like me. But if a learning opportunity comes up and I see how I could handle myself better, Hey, I will take it!
So lets change this up a bit....
You ask me a straight up question, and I will do my best to answer you....
Ask me to explain what part that you aren't getting ...
One question at a time...
Maybe bluntness is a better approach:
You were giving her what YOU thought she needed.
Now she's getting what SHE needs from someone else.
I wasn't going to post on this thread any more today but here goes. I do appreciate everyone's effort. I've got a test run going that will be processing for a while before I can look at the results so can put a bit more time in here. job is going to be whacking the "please start a new thread" button any minute now though and I hope we can put this dialogue behind us by then and move back to me talking about roses and cleaning the cat boxes again.
Before I respond to you Mach1 after re-reading I believe that the opinion of people here is that indeed that I am a pompous ass all the time and very condescending to everyone. They tried to be gentle in pointing this out by saying things like "look at how you sound" and stuff like that and hoping that I would notice. I didn't for some time in large part because I had thought they were indicating that there was something mysterious that I should have "known" that made me the cause of all the misery that both W and I have been suffering. Was this caused in part by my freely admitted lack of "emotional intelligence"? Perhaps. Again as I've written it is easy to get things out of context here. It may not be obvious on that side of the screen but writing these posts requires a huge effort on my part as I think and then re-think the composition and content and in the process perhaps lose some of the message.
Mach1 - I honestly don't have any questions other than trying to understand initially what Rose888 was trying to tell me which appeared to be a request to see things from my W's point of view which I find myself still unable to do. We all then got distracted as I went into more and more detailed explanations and responses. Does the answer to that really matter today? I don't think so - at least not enough to justify the effort that people have put in.
Yes - I come across in the written word sometimes as pompous and condescending. I even come across that way in real life at times. I've also said that I've been working on this for many years even long before BD - probably going back 20 years or more. No I'm not perfect. I like to feel that I am in fact a kind and understanding person who prefers to listen rather than talk (I can see the eye rolls from here people!). I respect people of all walks of life and levels of skills. In my relationship with W I would ask for and listen to her advice on a number of topics. She is a very smart woman with a lot of insight into different issues. Many things I do on a daily basis are the result of suggestions she's made that I've adopted and thanked her for. I have a huge amount of respect for her and her thoughts and opinions as well as those of many other people.
The condescending comment from my W was a single sentence she said in a time of stress while she was still trying to hide the A from me. It was never said before and only repeated once since. However this seems to be the source of literally thousands of words of commentary here now. And yes - I do admit that it has validity which is why I made a point of bringing it up as one of my known flaws.
Did I have a contribution to my W's depression, acting out and affair after 27 years together? Undoubtedly.
Was I the sole cause? Doubtful.
Will I need to work on being the best AndrewP I can be now and in the future whether W comes back to me or not? Absolutely.
Am I there yet? No and probably never will be - there will always be things I need to work on.
Do I see major changes that I need to make in myself to be this "best AndrewP"? No I don't - I like who I am.
To address one of the other comments which referred to my "take me or leave me" attitude. Let's presume that W comes out of her tunnel and is a changed person. Let's presume that at that point that W doesn't like the AndrewP that has been waiting for her hoping that she comes home. Then in that case W will either have to accept the AndrewP that she finds or not just like AndrewP will have to accept the W that comes home - or not.
That's the future and only a possible future at that. Let's leave that future to unfold on its own for now. Please rest assured that I'll be back here with a note of panic in my writing if it does happen.
Does that clear things up? I hope so.
Maybe bluntness is a better approach:
You were giving her what YOU thought she needed.
Now she's getting what SHE needs from someone else.
Drew - I'm not seeing the purpose in pointing this out to me. Yes - I know that my wife of 27 years is having an affair with another man.
Thank you for seeming to blame me for it and for the possible mid-life crisis that she is having and pointing out that I was inadequate as a husband.
Sorry - rather touchy today.
You missed my point.
Which kinda IS our point.
Hiya Andrew. I know your head is spinning a bit. I have to tell you that you have some of the best there is on here posting to you.
Forgive me as I haven’t read all your threads. I just wanted to tell you a little something that I have been through. Please bear with me a bit.
I was about the same age as your w when I got married. After a turbulent childhood, I fell in love with my xh’s maturity and steadfastness. It was a time when I was just beginning to find me and my voice. I was becoming confident and self-assured after a life of feeling less than.
He seemed to love those things about me. But there was another part of him who liked to be in control.
My feelings of confidence were very new and raw. Slowly, over time, things began to change. The changes were subtle ones. Little words here and there about how I could do something better, a disapproving look or he would redo something I had done.
I know now that I hadn’t realized because it was what I had known growing up. My mother would do the same things. It was my comfort zone. It was what I knew.
Over time, it would happen more often. He wanted more and more control. I wanted less for him to take care of me and more for him to really respect me. Round and round we went until I became very small. I began to go inside myself. Feeling inadequate and unworthy and depressed.
I do not know you and I am not, in any way, suggesting that this is what you are doing. Only you would know that. I will say though, that the 'cocky' attitude you talk about and have exhibited some here feels very familiar to me.
If you asked my xh, I think he would tell you that it wasnt his intention to make me feel as he did and that he was just trying to help and maybe that’s true in his mind.
But, had he accepted me for who I was, without judgement, I believe his actions would have been different.
The truth of it is that your wife was unhappy. You don’t have to understand her reasons, but, you have to accept them. They are her feelings and she is entitled to them.
I am not implying that everything your wife may be thinking and saying about you is true. MLCers say a lot of things. But you do need to look at all of them and see which ones hold weight and work on those. For you.
You are being given an amazing opportunity for growth here. Don’t throw it away. It’s way too important.
Hiya Andrew. I know your head is spinning a bit. I have to tell you that you have some of the best there is on here posting to you.
Absolutely. I'm thrilled that I have people like Jack_3_Beans, eric and job here along with many other kind and insightful people. The head-spinning and speaking in tongues thing doesn't happen very often but occasionally visitors and I will get wound up about what are probably trivial details but seem very important at the time.
Forgive me as I haven’t read all your threads.
A bunch of drivel if you ask me. The bits written by some of the other people are quite good though especially I've been told on Page 6 of this thread or the first one in my MLC posting "Am I on the right bicycle" where Jack, eric and job gave me some great perspective and some excellent tools to navigate my side of this journey.
Please ignore the last couple of pages - for some reason we all got wrapped up in over-analyzing things that don't really matter at the moment. I also appear to have attracted a troll or at least someone who I am thinking of as a troll. Unfortunately that brings out the Billy Goat in me
. I'll be more than happy if you come back again once things calm down which I hope they have now. I've read some of your past posts and you went on a heck of a ride and have a lot of perspective to offer. I do hope that you'll be around for a while.
He wanted more and more control. I wanted less for him to take care of me and more for him to really respect me. Round and round we went until I became very small. I began to go inside myself. Feeling inadequate and unworthy and depressed.
I do not know you and I am not, in any way, suggesting that this is what you are doing. Only you would know that. I will say though, that the 'cocky' attitude you talk about and have exhibited some here feels very familiar to me.
I'm sorry to hear that and that that is the impression you have gotten. I don't feel that I am the controlling type although I freely admit that I can seem perhaps pompous especially in the written word. Unfortunately my W isn't here (at least I don't think she is - she might be) to give you her own perspective. I like to think that in most ways that we were partners in life. In many ways she was the one who "wore the pants" and set the agenda for us. Generally I am a pretty passive person who went along with whatever were her priorities. I would often refer to her as my "young trophy wife" although in reality she was only 18 months younger than me so there's not much age or maturity difference between us.
You are being given an amazing opportunity for growth here. Don’t throw it away. It’s way too important.
Thank you - I recognize this as well.
^^^^ A lot of that, is exactly what I meant when I said that I feel as though you are trying to talk your way out of something.
Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.
I don't know you, other than what you post, and how you present yourself when you post.
So, straight up with you.
I get the feeling that you try to explain your way out of things, by either easily admitting to a problem that never gets addressed, or by deflecting the attention away from the issue, so that it appears that others around you are the ones who are misguided in their observations...
You present yourself as always being the smartest man in the room. Maybe you are, you seem very intelligent in your writings and observations. So when you state that you are not understanding, there are two options. Either we are being way too vague in our descriptions, or you are crying Wolf, in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the truth being fairly near you.
You present yourself as being very defensive with your words, and any criticism toward anything, which is a "red flag" in the DBing world. Defensiveness is a tool used to avoid any self reflection and ultimately leading to lacking true growth from the reflection.
You present yourself as being controlling toward others, in what we can post, what we can critique, what we can comment on. You only allow what you are ready to hear, and deflect and defend what you choose not to see.
An example of this is telling a community of established personalities, that they can or cannot 2x4 you...
Seems a bit controlling to me....
The answers that you speak of above....
Those answers are for you Andrew...
Nobody else here has to live your life, and cannot answer them for you.
The reason that I asked you about arguing with your wife, was so that you could maybe look at that, and understand that how you are presenting yourself here, could very well have been how she perceived you. And why would she even want to argue with you, if the outcomes was set in stone so as her opinion was simply nullified by your response to it.
How would you feel if every little thing was critiqued and changed into your perception being painstakingly incorrect ?
Oh wait...you don't like it. Hence this conversation...
And possibly, a reason that she didn't argue with you...
One of the first encounters that we had, I was very similar to where I am now. And now, others are seeing the same things in you..
So am I still incorrect about what I am seeing ?
Because this, is how you are presenting yourself...
So, I ask you again...
Why is it more important for you to be correct, than to value another's opinion ?
The reason that I ask you about being dismissive, is because of the above comments.
Your reason, or seemingly talking your way out of things, is quite dismissive of what other people see and feel.
How would you like it, if every time you had an opinion, someone dismissed you ???
So I ask you these questions...
Is the way that you present yourself here, the way that you want to present yourself to other people ???
Is that the Andrew that you really are ???
Is that the kind of Man, that is strong, and confident ???
Because to me, I wouldn't want that for myself...
And the reason that I post, is that I don't want that for you either....
I also appear to have attracted a troll or at least someone who I am thinking of as a troll.
I'm curious who you think is a troll?
Mach1 - I'm truly sorry that I've given you this impression. I feel that you have an incorrect perception of me and to be honest I've become exhausted today through this discussion which to me serves little or no purpose.
I do honestly disagree with much of what you've said that you believe to be part of my character but don't have the energy to dig into it and go over and over things that have been discussed before.
Good bye everyone for a while at least.
You told URWorthy to dismiss the past few pages. These past few pages are of some people who care really trying to help. We've been telling you that you are dismissive, you say you aren't, then you actually tell someone to dismiss what has been written to you. You say they don't matter at the moment- very dismissive.
The one's posting to your are vets, reaching out to help. There isn't one single troll on here posting to you. I can verify that. Yes, you, like another poster are getting some excellent attention when, others would love it.
If you don't want the insight, you can say it. Being selective on what you want and don't want is hard for posters to distinguish.
Hi UR! I've missed you lots.
I do honestly disagree with much of what you've said that you believe to be part of my character but don't have the energy to dig into it and go over and over things that have been discussed before.
A friend of mine told me here a long time ago: If something stings, maybe you should take a closer look at it.
Oh, by the way, it was J3B.
Andrew, I remember when some of these same people challenged me. Man, did I get upset. I remember thinking..they dont know me. How dare they say what they did? I gave them excuses of every kind. I dug in, hands on my hips, feet planted. I even cried some. I left for awhile. Did it all. Boy, I was gonna show them.
And then it hit me... between the eyes. If I continued to put my head in the sand, if I continued to wear blinders..then I was losing out.
It was hard. Really hard. I had blamed myself for everything and tried to convince them I deserved it. I thank God everyday that they didnt let up. They wouldnt quit on me.
The things I had to look at were deep inside me. Stuff I hadnt wanted to see. I figured if I could just keep my head down, and keep doing what I always did, I would be ok.
But it doesnt work that way. Not in the long run. I owe who I became to them, to my therapist, and to me..for not giving up.
If they are pushing you, it's because they see the potential. They see someone who can get to where he needs to be. I promise you, if you do the work, if you stick it out and allow yourself to really hear what they are saying..you will be forever changed.
Will it succk sometimes? Ayep. Will you want to quit? Yep. But, man, if you can see what they are trying to get you to see...is it ever worth it.
Up to you, though...always. I just hate to see you not get this. Not to save your marriage. That is a bonus if it happens. But because this is a life changing experience.
Take the chance, A. Just do it. Get out of your own head and listen with a beginners mind. Dont react to what they are saying. Take it in. Sit with it. I used to read back out loud what I wrote and what they wrote. It takes on a whole new meaning. Give it a try.
This is it. You in?
Hey Ginger...missed you, too, my friend.
I'm still here, reading along every day... hoping that one of the posts will trigger the light bulb to go off for you, Andrew.
I was in your shoes once, several years ago. On a different site. People stopped posting to me because I wouldn't listen to what they were saying. I was defensive. My story was "different". They can't possibly know. ha. Eventually, I got it. They were all right. And they were all there to support me when I needed it.
It takes time. We all want to help you get there faster, but it simply takes time.
Have you thought about what I asked you before? About the little negative comments you've made about your wife every so often... just wondered.
I do honestly disagree with much of what you've said that you believe to be part of my character but don't have the energy to dig into it and go over and over things that have been discussed before.
A friend of mine told me here a long time ago: If something stings, maybe you should take a closer look at it.
Oh, by the way, it was J3B.
Yes - and Drew - it stung you to be called a Troll. Think about that please.
I'm still here, reading along every day... hoping that one of the posts will trigger the light bulb to go off for you, Andrew.
I was in your shoes once, several years ago. On a different site. People stopped posting to me because I wouldn't listen to what they were saying. I was defensive. My story was "different". They can't possibly know. ha. Eventually, I got it. They were all right. And they were all there to support me when I needed it.
It takes time. We all want to help you get there faster, but it simply takes time.
Have you thought about what I asked you before? About the little negative comments you've made about your wife every so often... just wondered.
dream - thank you for the visit. I hope you have noticed that since you made that comment that I have been more mindful of how I referred to my W and believe that my comments about her have been almost universally positive.
Just before this thread closes I do want to indeed thank the people who were here yesterday trying to help me.
I would like you though to think about how it looked from this side of the screen, keeping in mind that on this side of the screen is a fragile man who doubts himself constantly who comes here as a place of refuge and support.
Have you ever been bullied or in a school-yard fight? I have. I've been surrounded by hordes of children yelling Fight Fight Fight while being pushed around by a bully, being mocked and having my face ground into the dirt.
That is how I felt yesterday. So - I flailed around trying to defend myself on all sides, perhaps not listening to those who were in the circle that weren't yelling "Fight". I do hope that most of you found me respectful even when I disagreed with you. Please, we're all adults here. We should be able to disagree with each other and respect each other's opinion.
I know that you all believed that you were trying to help and make me see things about myself that you felt that I wasn't seeing (and perhaps wasn't). On my side all I could see was the circle of people who were trying to force me to adopt their point of view and not appearing to listen to what I had to say.
Perhaps you found me "controlling" in that discussion and then extended that into my MR and how I related to my W. What I saw was how one comment and one line of enquiry got extended into a persistent attack that I felt was blown all out of proportion. When I begged people to stop they didn't. Could I have walked away at that time? Should I have? I don't back down easily. Is that a character flaw? Is that a character strength? It depends perhaps on your point of view.
I know that some of you want to re-open that discussion and continue to press me to see your point of view. I hope you don't feel like I'm being controlling when I beg of you, please, not right now. Yesterday exhausted me.
Following this exchange I did indeed leave the office and go and weep with exhaustion, frustration and anger. Feeling accused of being solely responsible for the destruction of my MR, my W's A, and having comparisons made between me and OM did no good to my confidence and self-esteem. Perhaps you feel you are not here to assist me with those things. Perhaps you feel that you are here to "instruct" and "direct". Yesterday that felt like bullying.
I stand up to bullies. I don't tend to back down. But I do also walk away from some fights. There are some fights not worth winning. The fight for my own soul, the fight for my W, the fight for my family are not ones that I will walk away from. That's why I've come back. To try for a fresh start on the dialogue. To try to continue to heal and to grow.
It's not controlling to ask you though to please, even though these words my look like they are coming from a strong person who is pig-headed and failing to hear what you are saying, these are indeed written by a scared and fragile human being who often feels overwhelmed and to ask you to keep that in mind when you are swinging that 2X4.
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