Original thread (Because my lame jokes can't remain unread, you all have no idea what you're missing! :D)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593838&page=1I think I belong in this section and the newcomers section scrolls too fast for my post to remain at the top for very long with the time frame I post.
Update:
She confessed that OM isn't making her happy like she thought "it" would. She finds herself more unhappy than when she left. She continues with she'll be returning soon. I'm left spinning. Calls and texts me fairly often now. I am unsure how to proceed. I feel like this is progress? We've been able to have conversations now without her turning into the screaming spew monster from Hades. Even manage to disagree in healthy ways.
This time last week I was feeling like I will give this a little while longer before adopting the last resort technique. I have seen improvement with what I am currently doing. Shutting up and listening, giving her space, and doing a lot of my own things. Honestly, our day to day interactions have improved greatly. I've been able to reflect on some of the things she said, I'm jealous, controlling, and critical. I can see why she has felt that way and I continue to work on those.
Unfortunately, due to financial issues, I have had to drop down to therapy once a month. Would love to have a chat with him, but I don't see him till next week. Wife is speaking of our future more and more. Remains living with OM, hence the spinning. She has told me that if I want to walk away from all of this, she won't blame me, that is probably going to be hard on me. (Because the previous five months has been a walk in the park? :p)
I'm open to any and all input.
Thanks for the support folks.
****Joke****
In my studies, I've covered a lot of math ... a LOT of math. As a result, I can do math at a molecular level. My cells multiply by dividing ...
Welcome to this board.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmKeep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.
This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...296#Post2592296Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...444#Post1942444Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.
Detach the single most important thing to DO.Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Cadet, you work so hard around here. Thank you.
Late ....
Just caught up on your sitch a bit.
So is there anything that you know of that happened in your W's past (childhood) .... was there some issues there, I ask because if this is MLC your W will go through some tunnels. Looks like she is temp checking you currently to make sure you have not moved, to make sure her option #2 is still just where she left him. She will have to address these past issues before she will come out of it. Otherwise I worry you make it easy for her to return, with no boundaries, and she will rinse and repeat this mess as she still is doing her own thing ... just realizing that its not what she thought it would be.
I would be concerned she comes back to early and to easily before she actually does the work ... sounds like she went off the tracks, can you think back to when? Not that it matters, they all have different time lines but for me reading about the stages and realizing it all started about 2009 for me helped me track where she was some. Plus the fact prior to learning more about MLC I just assumed things went bad after my father died and I went through those emotions .... turned out this ramped up the temp for W as he was the first person she actually knew who passed ... a few months after that there were serious changes that I was blind to due to my own deep seeded grief.
Keep in mind the approach is the same, I do think here we are a bit more detached, a bit more patient ..well we are asked to be anyways .... yours truly was not very good at this part ...lol.
So is there anything that you know of that happened in your W's past (childhood) .... was there some issues there, I ask because if this is MLC your W will go through some tunnels. Looks like she is temp checking you currently to make sure you have not moved, to make sure her option #2 is still just where she left him. She will have to address these past issues before she will come out of it. Otherwise I worry you make it easy for her to return, with no boundaries, and she will rinse and repeat this mess as she still is doing her own thing ... just realizing that its not what she thought it would be.
I have similar concerns with her returning. I don't want to go back to the old marriage at this point. I have given this a lot of thought just today, I think you're psychic. OM lost his job and she may find herself without a roof over her head. Months ago I would have been excited -- that she may be returning. Today I have felt a lot of dread. I do NOT want her to return under these circumstances. I feel like I can survive one of these, I don't want to return to the status quo and wait for another bomb to drop. She needs to finish her journey.
I would be concerned she comes back to early and to easily before she actually does the work ... sounds like she went off the tracks, can you think back to when? Not that it matters, they all have different time lines but for me reading about the stages and realizing it all started about 2009 for me helped me track where she was some. Plus the fact prior to learning more about MLC I just assumed things went bad after my father died and I went through those emotions .... turned out this ramped up the temp for W as he was the first person she actually knew who passed ... a few months after that there were serious changes that I was blind to due to my own deep seeded grief.
Keep in mind the approach is the same, I do think here we are a bit more detached, a bit more patient ..well we are asked to be anyways .... yours truly was not very good at this part ...lol.
Cali, thanks a lot for taking the time to respond.Edit -- The other color made my eyes hurt when I read it.
Cadet, you work so hard around here. Thank you.
Thank you now you have lots of homework too!
Thanks, Cadet!
I have been diligent in doing my homework. I started it long before I ever posted -- long before I ever registered. I did find some new things in the links that I missed before.
I am currently seeking advice on my "approach" as it were. Currently I remain kind with her, this is for me and it is also for her. Initially it was my kindness that made her notice me, convinced her to marry me. Even with OM, she says she is there because he is nice to her. I have recently read some links on this site that would say this is the wrong approach for me to have. When all of this exploded and I started evaluating myself, I came to the conclusion that I am a kind man -- I always have been and I refuse to let ANY circumstances turn that into cynicism. I want to keep that part of myself. Other parts are free to go ... jealousy, controlling behavior, being overly critical, and clingy.
So at the moment, the basic game plan is to remain kind, not initiate contact, give her space, not discuss the R, and to keep myself busy. Logically I can see the need to set boundaries, but I feel that now is not the time to do it. I feel like at this point in time, I need to let everything play out, A included and once we move on to a point where she is also interested in salvaging our relationship, make my boundaries clear then. I understand that point may never come, but at the moment I am able to wait it out.
Advice / comments / 2 x 4s are all welcome. Thanks for taking the time to read.
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't."
Logically I can see the need to set boundaries, but I feel that now is not the time to do it. I feel like at this point in time, I need to let everything play out, A included and once we move on to a point where she is also interested in salvaging our relationship, make my boundaries clear then. I understand that point may never come, but at the moment I am able to wait it out.
Advice / comments / 2 x 4s are all welcome. Thanks for taking the time to read.
"There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't."
Late
Why do you not feel now is a good time for boundaries??? .... and before you answer I am guessing it will have something to do with your W's reactions. STOP!!!
Boundaries are for YOU ... if not now when? When the A is over and she starts coming back to you ... or when A is over and she moves on to OM2? Yes ... that A may play out, but if she does respect you , or learn to respect you I am not of the opinion a W will return.
Read up on Boundaries ... but do not be afraid to put them in place at any time during your sitch .. the sooner the better IMHO because she will test you on them.
Thanks, Cali. I always appreciate your input. I have been mulling this over all night. A big part of my apprehension about the boundaries is I have always related those to some grandiose speech -- I feel comfortable setting and maintaining boundaries at this point, without a big speech. I worry, I have had a terrible habit of jumping from one extreme to the other, when the middle ground would most likely provide the best solution. Something clicked tonight. I will get by without her. That doesn't mean that I have given up, but it is the first time I have had this realization in earnest since BD.
Minor update / journal entry.
I was scheduled to work both jobs today. I got to my night job and it was slow, so I was put on call for the evening. Once I left the store, I reached out to some friends and went and played cards with them. Didn't text or call W at all today. Big step for me, in the past I would have reached out to her to try to get together. I work a lot and spend the rest of my free time with my kids and with my friends. I don't often have free time in the slightest at this point.
Seen W about ten hours in the last four weeks. I have decided that I will no longer change my plans in order to accommodate W. My kids respect me, my friends respect me. I don't want to cancel any plans I have made with them in order to spend time with someone who doesn't respect me.
Update:
This weekend was strange. I had reached a point where I wasn't contacting her at all (still there), but she reached out to me on Friday and asked if we could get together. Told her what my plans were for the weekend. She decided she was going to come over early Saturday and spend the day with me. I went and did my thing Friday night (I play a card game every Friday).
Saturday rolls around, at this point I have already decided that I would keep my schedule free for most of the day. Wife texts me at noon, says she wants to wait till about 3 and spend the night. Asks me if that is okay, I tell her sure. I picked her up and she proceeded to tell me that things are only getting worse for her. She may not be going back there at all. Tells me all about all the things she is going through. I enjoyed a STFU smoothie and listened. She seems to be heavy into depression and withdrawal at this point. At one point she asked me why I was interested in her. This is the only time I spoke up throughout the conversation. I asked her if she truly wanted me to answer the question or if she were simply wondering aloud. She told me she wanted an answer. I gave her this answer:
"I have seen the good and the bad parts of you, I have known you all my life and I feel like the complete package that you offer is good. In addition, I have had to ponder pursuing other relationships, think about other women and while they may certainly have something to offer, they are unable to give me a complete family. That is something I can only get with you."
I'm sure there are better ways I could have put that, but it is how I feel. Other women certainly have other things to offer, but she is a good catch in my opinion and has the added bonus of helping to restore my broken family.
We ended up talking for about two hours, most of which was her telling me about what was going on with her. After that we went to visit an old mutual friend. We were there for a while, came home, watched some netflix and went to sleep.
Sunday we watched more netflix, watched a movie, and just hung out most of the day. Toward the end of the day we talked a little but, thirty minutes or so. In reflection, I realized there was a part of our relationship I felt I had failed in. I had an A thirteen years ago. I never made it clear to her that she was my first choice. I felt like I should rectify that, with the worst case being, I am not haunted by it later in life.
I ended up taking her back to the apartment. She tells me she is seriously considering getting out of there and working on our marriage. I'm not sure how I feel about that. This is the first time she has really acted that way. She has told me this before but I felt like it was more of a keep him hooked kind of thing, it felt different this time.
Moving forward from here I intend to keep up with no contact initiated by me, listen to her when she wants to talk to me and see where things go. I will continue my GAL stuff because I have enjoyed hanging out with my kids and my buddies. I no longer invite her along, but I do mention what my plans for the day are if she asks about getting together. My plans don't change any longer.
I'm still reeling from this weekend. I had accepted that things were done between us and was starting to really distance myself from the situation. I think she is psychic and knew I felt that way, even though I never mentioned any of it to her.
Thanks for taking the time to read. Any and all advice or comments are welcomed.
So upset with myself right now. Yesterday I dropped off D12. Wife has started a new job as a waitress, we met at her workplace. She was excited to see me. Asked me to come inside so she could buy me a beer. I accepted. She also bought dinner. It was nice, I appreciated the gesture. So in my all-knowing wisdom, I decided it would be a good time to talk about some R stuff afterwards.
By and large our R talks have been limited to how I have contributed to our current position, but in another stroke of genius, I decided to start discussing things I want to see from a future relationship. She was no where near ready to hear any of this. All I managed to do was to push her further away.
I'm furious with myself. I have been doing a good job of detaching and giving her space. I have seen steps in the right direction. So I take a few baby steps and decide it is a good time to LEAP ahead. At this point I am backing way off and cursing myself.
So frustrated with the backsliding. I have seen real progress in my relationship with her. So I mess things up.
Sorry -- journaling / venting.
Hope everyone is having a good week.
I had a backslide last night too .... just own it, learn from it .. NO R TALKS.
Keep going.
Cali, thank you so much for the steady support. Between what you have shared of your sitch and the responses you've given me, you have been an absolute godsend.
Just saw this on another thread. (Can't recall which
)
Writing a letter to W to get it out of my system:
Dear W,
When all of this first started, I told you I did not want to be "just friends". That hasn't changed. You have expressed interest in working on our marriage to some degree, but we continue to work on a marriage with three people in it. I understand that you have many things to work out and there are things that you feel you need to see from me in order to start working on our marriage. I remain sorry for my part in creating this mess.
That said, I can no longer tolerate being your second choice. It is too painful for me. I thank you for not taking me up on some of my insane offers when you first left. From here on out, I can't have you in my life so long as the OM is in your life. If you find yourself in a position where you truly want to work on things with me, I am open to discuss it. Thank for all the good years and I wish you luck on your journey.
Sincerely,
H
Late
I have done just this ... wrote a letter to my W, its still in my drafts labeled "A letter to never send" It was cathartic at the time I wrote it ... and I took a look not long ago and tossed in some updates/edits in a different color just to show myself the progress.
I also have a reminder to write OM, never have done this as I think I just out grew that need, he was a POS who did not deserve the head space I gave him, sure as heck doesnt deserve any at the moment
Maybe do just that .. write a big one, with the intent she will never see/read it .. as you will never send it. Get it all out ..... it really was and is a healthy option. You do not have to post it here ... but if you feel the need to purge .. do it.
FWIW that letter, you are on the right track, firm in not being a cake provider, owning your own contributions to the M, understanding there can not be 3 people in a M.
Now just keep doing that mirror work, push through .. it gets better.
One thing that has really started to stick in my craw. W continues to insist this isn't an affair. Goes so far as to attempt to convince me of this fact and gets really angry that I don't agree with her. The part that I don't get is this;
It was an emotional affair at least eight months prior to her leaving. Possibly physical. It ramped up October of last year, when they started discussing moving in together. She left 02/19/2015 and moved in with him at the latest by 02/22/2015. 3 days to go from our marital bed to his. If it isn't an affair ... what is an affair?!
She did tell me a number of times before she left that she wanted a divorce. Many times I convinced her to give it some time, let me finish school. Things will improve. Each time she agreed. Now she tells me that my refusal to let her leave is why it isn't an affair. At no point did I force her to stay. Beg and plead, yes, but I didn't force her to stay.
One thing that has really started to stick in my craw. W continues to insist this isn't an affair. Goes so far as to attempt to convince me of this fact and gets really angry that I don't agree with her. The part that I don't get is this;
It was an emotional affair at least eight months prior to her leaving. Possibly physical. It ramped up October of last year, when they started discussing moving in together. She left 02/19/2015 and moved in with him at the latest by 02/22/2015. 3 days to go from our marital bed to his. If it isn't an affair ... what is an affair?!
She did tell me a number of times before she left that she wanted a divorce. Many times I convinced her to give it some time, let me finish school. Things will improve. Each time she agreed. Now she tells me that my refusal to let her leave is why it isn't an affair. At no point did I force her to stay. Beg and plead, yes, but I didn't force her to stay.
Late
She insists its not an affair because she is trying to justify in her head that what she done was necessary .... heck even better than its YOUR fault.
I have told this story a few times, and it fits for your situation here. Next time she pulls that ... its truth dart time.
It was Oct14 Halloween, W and I agreed to take S trick-or-treating .... I had PMA going, lost weight, new clothes ... all that. Just learned OM was back in the 'on again' arena and was trying to just deal with it and enjoy S and the night as he was not going to be doing this stuff forever. In between houses as S was in line for candy W and I were going at it. That was when she informed me OM was not her "boyfriend" and I asked how I should refer to him, POS was out and not BF was too ... she then went on to say and for the record its not an A, we are seperated.
I got calm, stone cold calm ... and I siad, "Yes we are separated I will agree with you, we are separated because YOU chose to leave. YOUR AFFAIR is disrespectful to me, our M, S and our family" She then fired back with Spew "ITS NOT AN AFFAIR I LEFT YOU" So I again .. calm and smiled like I just had an epiphany "Oh ... so you mean to tell me that in my next M, when I go out with the fellas and decide to get housed, I can call my next W up, inform her its over and bed the hot little waitress that night and its all good ... thank you for sharing that loophole I had no idea of when it comes to marriage"
I walked up to S, told him goodnight and left.
This was the LAST time she ever tried to tell me it was not an A, later on she finally did admit it , admitted it was wrong.
Late, there are times you have to stand up to it, spew be damned ... do not allow her to rewrite history nor justify her actions ... do not judge nor cast stones out of hurt but simply set her straight on such things.
So one thing I have been giving some thought to recently. What do I *need* in a relationship? Going to list here:
*All of these go two ways IMO, meaning anything I ask for, I intend to give as well.*
Loyalty -- Not just fidelity. I expect my partner to take my side in anything. At least make that show in public. Discussing it with me in private and pointing out what a stubborn donkey I am is fine.
Honesty -- Be truthful with each other, even when it [censored]. I would rather hear the truth and start dealing with something bad now.
Respect -- Respect each other. Respect the relationship. Accept that each person is their own individual fully capable of making their own decisions. This may include giving space when it is needed. Discussing things you may not want to talk about or dropping things you want to talk about. If it is me and I don't want to talk about something, I think that it is fair to provide a time when we CAN talk about it. Be respectful in arguments.
I'll probably add to this list as time goes on, but these are the big non-negotiable ones for me.
Thanks, Cali. I like that bit and I will file it away for later use. I'm sure I'll need it.
And you're spot on, she often tries to paint it in such a way that I am responsible for it. I don't buy in to it, but she does try.
Took your advice and wrote a letter last night, Cali. It was helpful. Thanks for the advice. No plan to give it to her or to send it to her at this point. Just for me. I'm sure I will revisit often and make small corrections.
I do NOT want her to return under these circumstances. I feel like I can survive one of these, I don't want to return to the status quo and wait for another bomb to drop. She needs to finish her journey.
Late, I read your posts. I get it. I've been there. I made the mistake of allowing/encouraging her to come back too soon. I hope you don't do same. It really is that painful for all concerned.
She should come back for the right reasons - i.e. she wants to be there, not because she is out of options. Otherwise, it's temporary until you both do the work. Seriously.
Looking at your posts, I think you know that. I think you also have a good head on your shoulders and realize that this is not a quick hit item and takes time. Lots of time.
I have no regrets, but if I had it to do over again, I would have picked the other road where she didn't come back so soon. She wasn't done. Still doesn't seem to be all these years later. Maybe she just doesn't have the tools, but that's how it seems.
Focus on yourself and the family. Evaluate her for her maturity and use of tools. Evaluate yourself as well. If she comes back too soon, it won't end well. And don't be fooled - they can be very persuasive. Very
Take your time and take the space to learn about you and make the tools you need to be better. It's hard when the momentum swings back and forth, but it's worth taking the time.
The spew is a good indicator of where she is currently. Blaming you for her actions is a good sign that you BOTH need to work on some things before she returns.
Have I said it enough times??
Things don't have to end this way, but they do need to be repaired. By both of you and for the right reasons. The alternative is not pleasant...
AJ
AJM, first I love the name. Happens to be my initials.
Thanks for the input. I admire and respect your opinion. You've nailed one of my biggest fears. I like to believe that I will remain rational enough to say that returning isn't an option at this point, but I can't say that for certain.
I'm still working on removing buttons she has access to. I thought I had nabbed all of them, but she found one and I'm not so sure it was intentional. A couple of weeks ago she said that her kids were the most important people in her life. I scoffed at this. I feel like her actions have told a different story.
This leaves a big button for me. I don't think it's right, I'm certainly in no position to tell her who ranks where in HER life, but somewhere in my twisted brain it bothers me quite a bit. Since I discovered the button I have been working on removing it.
I believe I have made a lot of progress since she left, but I feel that I still need to make more. I still have trouble detaching. Not that I stumble all the time, but it is a constant, daily battle for me.
As far as things ending, I am currently resolved to the long haul. I find myself becoming stronger. The gaping wound in my chest doesn't hurt as badly. Things are becoming clearer. I'm not spinning as often. For the time being, I am attempting the kill them with kindness approach. Mostly because that's a big part of who I am. Not just in dealing with her, in dealing with everyone in my life. My coworkers are amazed at my patience and kindness. I get complimented on it all the time. I feel like I have an unfair advantage when it comes to the patience part of it. After dealing with W and her spew, everyone else is a walk in the park.
Keeping my kind nature is very important to ME. I struggle with that and being firm at the same time. I am starting to find ways to keep my kindness while protecting myself. The validation cheat sheet has helped me a lot in this regard. Opened my mind to different ways of approaching problems that allow me to stay away from the cynicism.
I have a question for you, AJM. I would like to read your sitch from beginning to end. Is it still available? If so, do you have a link or links? I have read all of Caliguy's sitch and you were a bastion of wisdom there. I learned a lot reading it. I'm sure you also have plenty to teach.
Not sure how helpful it may be, but the earliest I see is
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...235#Post1731235May have to clean that up a little and cut and paste...
I've been around longer, but may have lost some of that muck in the purges. Just as well in most respects
Being kind to somebody who outwardly hates you? That's an excellent approach. I know for me, I took the "she'll have to club me like a baby seal" approach. I'm extremely glad I did.
There was really nothing she could do to hurt me beyond what she did. I knew that. She wasn't going to take my kids (she wanted to, but not because of the kids; more because it made her fell "right" and to punish me for some reason).
I knew she was in no position to take the house. I knew I could have decimated her in front of her family, co-workers, etc.
I chose not to. I chose instead to repay with kindness. I knew exactly what I was doing when I did that.
I'm happy to say I'm happy I chose that path even though sometimes I didn't want to.
You can become bitter or better from this. Not really any other outcomes that I've seen.
AJ
May I ask how you would define the "she'll have to club me like a baby seal" approach?
I agree with your last statement. I don't want to become bitter about anything.
Thanks for the response, AJM.
Systems engineer, cool. So you got my lame binary joke and have probably heard it many times before. :p It looks like you were right about my age when it all came crashing down. How old was she?
And don't like writing code?! That's the best part of the IT industry!
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who get binary and those who don't"
I've always thought that should read "There are 01 types of.." but that's just me
May I ask how you would define the "she'll have to club me like a baby seal" approach?
My approach was to take the high road. To not reciprocate her efforts to fight. I'm a former active duty US Marine. I am perfectly fine fighting and sometimes even enjoy it if the truth were known. But for me there has to be a reason when it comes to something important to me.
I used to joke after a hard day that at least I go home to a wife that loves me. Hehe. Didn't see that coming. Why? Because it was either very sudden (melt-down) or very well hidden. Or I just didn't want to see it. Maybe even a combination of those.
Anyway, my ex tried incredibly hard to pick fights and "attack" me. My character. My parenting. My family of origin. My skin color, hair.. you get the idea. She was desperate to find fault even if she needed to make it up. Not uncommon in these situations, I later learned. And it makes sense to me that somebody who wants or needs to get away from somebody they loved, needs to view that person as "evil or bad" or whatever undesirable moniker you can impose. It helps to ease the guilt and pain. No two ways about it from what I've seen with people.
My ex left the first time on Mother's day saying I was a horrible parent. She left me with two small kids with a big smile on her face. I let her come back six months later, but that wasn't such a great idea in hind-sight.
She tried to get me to hit her, to get her love interests to pick a fight with me, to make me angry and move out of my house, to impose guilt on me, etc.
My approach started with day three after BD. I decided I would put the kids first, her second and me third (God always gets slot 0 in my life; it's how I roll
) With that in mind, I figured my biggest risk was losing my kids, followed by losing my house and losing my wife. She took about 2 years to develop the story of what a horrible and violent parent I was. She had many stories prior to that, even making them up in front of the therapist the few times she went. She couldn't keep a story straight and all of them were aimed at making me the "bad" guy. I don't particularly care about the house, but she would have happily used me fighting back to say, "see! I told you he was violent. I should have the kids and house and his money etc!" Truth is, I think at the time she only wanted the house and money though.
But I wasn't willing to let her have the kids as sole parent. She had told me along the way, she wanted to date people two at a time and bring them into the house etc. I was not happy with that, but told her she could not bring them into my house and if that's the life she wanted to go. But you can't take the kids. Why? I wouldn't subject a 10 and 13 year old to that if I could help it.
So long story longer, I decided that the best way to fight fire was to snuff it out. Twice I didn't do very well with that approach and was goaded into some fights. Twice over 2.5 years. Once via text (uggh).
Took the high road the entire time. I let her take what she wanted from the house when she left (except the dining room table - that room would be empty without it and make the house hard to sell.) At one point I even agreed to sell the house and split it with her. That was during the downturn and luckily it didn't sell. After a year, I put a stop to it and made an offer she took. I didn't fight the sep agreement except to add clarity and take a few items off her lawyer put in that would be detrimental to the kids or would extend beyond their reaching adulthood. When she wouldn't give my son or daughter a ride to drop them at my house for visitation days (50/50 custody; she moved in three blocks away but sometimes it rains) I went and picked up the kids. When her husband tries to accuse me of who knows what, I pretty much let him. Except once - I really wanted to punch him in the throat for his comments about my kids, but figured it would end with him in jail/hospital and me in jail with the kids going to the ex. I didn't think that would be good for the kids.
Very Jerry Springer like if step back. And I often stepped back. Very often. To the point that my blood pressure was rising and my sleep and job were impacted. Did I mention the son's healthcare? He was taking very expensive meds that the insurance company didn't want to cover during all of this.
I took up running and it helped immensely. I got more involved in my church and helping other people. I worked on me and the items I didn't like about me. The ideas and accusations she threw at me - some of them stung a little. So I worked on them. They didn't take too long to change the things I didn't like about me. It also didn't take long to realize that people are people - take 'em or leave 'em. Nor did it take long for my ex to say "I never said that" or "I hope you end up alone" or.. <shrug> there are others, but who really cares, right? I'm the only one (and email) that will remember at this point
That help?
AJ
Yes, it makes sense. Thanks, AJ.
Journal:
W and I had a long discussion tonight. Told her that I can no longer be in her life so long as OM is in her life. Profusely apologized for my hand in the death of our marriage. I thanked her for all the wonderful memories she's given me.
It hurts. It hurts so bad. Lord give me the strength to get through this.
I feel like this is the right direction for me, it is difficult not to reach out to her. This feels like the death knell for my marriage.
Some good things about this.
I no longer have to be around her and fake anything. That was becoming too painful for me.
The pain has already subsided quite a bit from last night. I expect more improvement.
No longer in limbo. As of right now I am moving forward.
When we spoke last she told me that she has never stopped loving me, that she still misses me terribly and she needs to take some time to find herself.
She also told me that she didn't want to get my hopes but she feels like this is right road to recovery for us.
Those last two statement from her surprised me and they were nice to hear, but I don't know how much, if any, I believe of them.
I'd appreciate some input -- some support. It's rough today.
late
Dealing with this stuff can be very frustrating. There are little moments here and there where the WAS can sense us pulling away so they drop a line or two like you described just to keep us where they left us. Read enough and you notice when we move this really bugs em to no end. She might have just been temp checking ... maybe she actually meant those words but knows she needs to 'do this' in order to figure things and herself out.
I 'dropped rope' a couple times in my sitch ... did my thing and was not paying attention and realized somehow that rope ended up in my hands again ... might have been something she did, my fear of really letting go, just the fact I held it for 24 years .. its a tough thing to do ... alot like detaching , I never really am sure I did it 100% .... I will say about this time last year I was at 90% though.
I would just say ... do not do it to get a reaction, do it for you .... if you need a break, go do your thing .... I suspect like me .. nothing you are doing now will really change regardless if you are holding onto that rope or not .... use this to detach a bit more, worry about yourself for a bit and let her figure her stuff out..... watch out for the tests because I would bet they are coming
Thanks, Cali.
I like to tell myself that I did this for me. I spent nearly a month reflecting on it. Very much of the mindset that any drastic changes that I make to this situation need to be given ample consideration.
As far as the tests. They worry me. I like to believe I am strong-willed and with most people, they have no sway over me. She does though. She knows exactly what to say and how to say it in order to get me to start listening. It will be a challenge for me to remain firm on this, but I can't have her in my life if she is okay with OM being in hers.
Live for today and see what tomorrow brings I guess.
Thanks again, Cali.
Thanks, Cali.
I like to tell myself that I did this for me. I spent nearly a month reflecting on it. Very much of the mindset that any drastic changes that I make to this situation need to be given ample consideration.
As far as the tests. They worry me. I like to believe I am strong-willed and with most people, they have no sway over me. She does though. She knows exactly what to say and how to say it in order to get me to start listening. It will be a challenge for me to remain firm on this, but I can't have her in my life if she is okay with OM being in hers.
Live for today and see what tomorrow brings I guess.
Thanks again, Cali.
I can relate ... all we can do is look in the mirror and as we see that person look back realize he did all he can, he is a solid dude, and did the best with the hand he was dealt.
As far as the tests ... yeah .. totally get that and heck I will do one better. After 20+ years not only do they know the buttons, they have the locations of all the secret passages ... and with mine, she knew even when I did not say anything, like she was tapped into my brain and could tell when I was pulling away and she would slowly reel me in without me realizing it. We were connected on THAT kind of level that made detaching so hard for me.
In time, I changed those buttons, locked the secret passages, and ... yeah .. I wore tinfoil on my head to keep her and the government out.
Just remember, its not a sprint .. its a marathon, stay hydrated ... I read somewhere "I may quit, I may just give this all up .... but not today"
Yeah, I remind myself of that often. That it isn't a sprint. Seems like I am reminding myself of that more often now than I did a few months ago.
Thinking I need to let go completely. Assume we are done. Move on with my life. Trying to look back at her and what we had is just too painful. Look in the mirror and look to what I can achieve without her. If she decides to join me at some point, we can discuss it then. Quickly reaching the point where she'll need to prove to me that he is gone before we can do anything. Which means she can't just move out of there and move back in with me, there will need to be some cooling off period.
Of course, last I heard they were talking marriage. Good luck to them with that train wreck. I don't want to be anywhere near it.
Do I read that correctly? She still and always has loved you and was talking marriage with this OM?
Did you also mention that she knows what to say to keep you listening?
Whenever I hear somebody say they need to "find themselves" I cringe and remember I hate Oprah for those words (and many other falsehoods she spreads via her infomercials.)
I don't buy the "I need to find myself" per se. I buy the idea that I don't know what I want. Or that I focused on somebody so much I lost my identity without them. In a marriage, there are those that say you should become one with one another. That implies a loss of individual identity. I.e. one is no longer important without the other. They became a pair.
Reality is that you only need "finding yourself" when you are describing figuring out your identity without the other person in my opinion.
While she's bat chit crazy... keep your distance. I heard some similar things and my radar is pinging very loudly at your description.
Go slow and put some more thought into the idea that she'll have to prove she wants to be there, OM is long gone, and she wants to make the marriage work for the right reasons before you talk to her again.
That'd be my $0.02 worth.
AJ
I've discovered that NC is difficult here. It's hard on me and we still need to communicate about the kids. (Mainly D12, rest is between her and my boys.) She told me today that S16 won't respond to her and that it is my fault. I told her I stopped getting involved in their relationship some time ago and any issues they have are between them.
We are speaking a bit again. So far nothing serious. Not sure how rock firm I can be on this. Situation is painful when I am involved, painful when I am not involved. Simply working on a lot of space at the moment and gearing myself up to telling her she can't move back home yet. (Assuming she's going to try once she loses the apartment they share.)
You read it correctly, AJ. And yes, she absolutely knows how to keep me hooked. The signals have been very mixed. All over the board. Goes from get out of my life to I want to come home often.
On your identity part, I agree with you, I think that is part of the problem for many LBSs, myself included. A large part of me was her, I'm still working on finding me without her. I think the healthier option is to already know who you are before your marriage goes down the tubes, not to be so co-dependent. I wasn't there and while I can't say I didn't see this coming, she was unhappy before she left. I thought we were much closer to working it out than we were obviously.
You offer wise advise, as always. I will be doing my best to go slow.
So when she was 22, she was diagnosed with major depression. She was told she would need to take anti-depressants for the rest of her life. She stuck with those for a while, a couple of years. She had an on again off again relationship with them. When she was taking them, I could always see a major difference. Well, she has been off of them for the past five years or so. Been drinking more. She's at the point now where she's drunk 3-5 nights per week. This is the most depressed I have ever seen her. She did talk to me about seeing a therapist, which I think is an excellent idea.
Point being, the depression makes me spin even more. I ask myself sometimes, is this W talking or the depression? I worry that one day she starts to wake up and realizes everything that she has done. Everything she has lost. I am worried that she won't survive that day. She's tried to hurt herself before and it does concern me. I feel like during this awakening process, she'll need to make amends with me. (Perhaps I am being conceited here) I feel like if that ship has sailed, she may check out for good. While I can get behind it is her life and they are her choices, she should have to face the consequences, it is harder for me to take that approach when the consequences could literally be life or death.
Please, club away. I'm sure I have earned it.
Club away? Don't think that's necessary, do you? You're much harder on you than anyone else so far.
Depression for her adult life?
Drinking?
Not taking the meds after taking them for years?
Not sure what she wants?
As for your identity - I firmly disagree with the idea of having one separate like you describe. I'm firmly in the camp of bonding and becoming one entity. My identity is not important in the scheme of things - my marriage and family are.
That, and having been through it, I can tell you that identity can and should be rebuilt from time to time anyway. I have no issues with that. I'm a young, healthy man that can and should reinvent himself at various times in his life. No worries.
I'm serious when I say that you should be careful about letting her back. This seems oddly familiar to me in a lot of ways and I'm quite sure how it will end if she comes back and doesn't deal with her issues. She needs to be firmly of the mind of working on the marriage before returning. No exceptions.
My opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
AJ
Meant to add - what is it you want from her? What do you want for her?
Same for you?
AJ
Depression for her adult life?
Yes, she thinks it stems back to when she was 12 years old or so.
Drinking?
It has been an issue for years. I tried many times to "fix it" for her. Realized she isn't going to budge on it till she wants to. She has been the drink till there is no more booze type drinker. Just didn't buy booze often. She has bought it with more and more frequency as this situation started playing itself out. She is now drunk 4-5 night / week, possibly more.
Not taking the meds after taking them for years?
Yes. Part of my initial pleading with her was to get beg her to start seeing someone and get back on her meds.
As for your identity - I firmly disagree with the idea of having one separate like you describe. I'm firmly in the camp of bonding and becoming one entity. My identity is not important in the scheme of things - my marriage and family are.
I agree with you on that as well. My issue is from the perspective of a LBS.
I'm serious when I say that you should be careful about letting her back. This seems oddly familiar to me in a lot of ways and I'm quite sure how it will end if she comes back and doesn't deal with her issues. She needs to be firmly of the mind of working on the marriage before returning. No exceptions.
On this I believe I can be strong. I have zero desire to go through anything like this ever again.
My opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
I respect and admire your opinion. It is worth a lot. You and Cali are both very wise.
I've discovered that NC is difficult here. It's hard on me and we still need to communicate about the kids. (Mainly D12, rest is between her and my boys.) She told me today that S16 won't respond to her and that it is my fault. I told her I stopped getting involved in their relationship some time ago and any issues they have are between them.
I read this yesterday but was on my way out ... and could not reply the way I like to ... ya know .. long winded ... from the phone.
Late ... NC with kids is just impossible, no getting around that. What I did was just went NC when it came to anything but S .... W figured this out over time and would use this as a hidden door to communicate .... ie pic of S, to which I would reply every now n then "cute pic ...TY" and she would fire back something nice n sweet just to make sure I was still on the hook. Took some time to wiggle off that hook for me.
S8 and W too had issues ... Like you .. I opt'd for the "The R between you and S is just that .. .between you and S" this worked for some time till W was convinced I was plotting S against her, which led to a truth dart that it was not me who kissed OM in front of S then labeling OM just a "friend" ... kids do understand a lie when they hear one. This was towards the end of the A.
We are speaking a bit again. So far nothing serious. Not sure how rock firm I can be on this. Situation is painful when I am involved, painful when I am not involved. Simply working on a lot of space at the moment and gearing myself up to telling her she can't move back home yet. (Assuming she's going to try once she loses the apartment they share.)
You read it correctly, AJ. And yes, she absolutely knows how to keep me hooked. The signals have been very mixed. All over the board. Goes from get out of my life to I want to come home often.
This is the tough part ... they want you where they left you, they will expect to cake eat ... keep you as option #2 as long as they can. Almost like training wheels ... afraid to ride without them or the LBS having a hold of that bike fearing they will crash. Amazing what seems to happen when the LBS is able to drop the rope from a place of strength.
Absolutely listen to AJ, dude is not only wise, he will ask you a question that sits in your craw for a few days ... forcing you to soul search before you can truly answer. Do not have that door open for her right now, nor the light on. Makes me think of Forest Gump when Jenny would just come and go as she wanted and that poor stupid man just went along with it.
On your identity part, I agree with you, I think that is part of the problem for many LBSs, myself included. A large part of me was her, I'm still working on finding me without her. I think the healthier option is to already know who you are before your marriage goes down the tubes, not to be so co-dependent. I wasn't there and while I can't say I didn't see this coming, she was unhappy before she left. I thought we were much closer to working it out than we were obviously.
You offer wise advise, as always. I will be doing my best to go slow.
I think its just nearly impossible to expect a LBS who is still dazed and confused from BD to detach after 20 years with someone. I had no idea who I was without my W, which was part of the problem .... I slowly and surely stopped being me, and to be honest it was not like I could go back 20 years and dig out the old me and say .. here I am .. now Love me. This is why I think the reinvention portion of this is so vital .... seems more so for the LBH as our confidence/self esteem seems so tightly bound to how we are perceived as attractive... which is rough as that's exactly what takes the biggest hit with the BD, A and OM in the situation.
So when she was 22, she was diagnosed with major depression. She was told she would need to take anti-depressants for the rest of her life. She stuck with those for a while, a couple of years. She had an on again off again relationship with them. When she was taking them, I could always see a major difference. Well, she has been off of them for the past five years or so. Been drinking more. She's at the point now where she's drunk 3-5 nights per week. This is the most depressed I have ever seen her. She did talk to me about seeing a therapist, which I think is an excellent idea.
Point being, the depression makes me spin even more. I ask myself sometimes, is this W talking or the depression? I worry that one day she starts to wake up and realizes everything that she has done. Everything she has lost. I am worried that she won't survive that day. She's tried to hurt herself before and it does concern me. I feel like during this awakening process, she'll need to make amends with me. (Perhaps I am being conceited here) I feel like if that ship has sailed, she may check out for good. While I can get behind it is her life and they are her choices, she should have to face the consequences, it is harder for me to take that approach when the consequences could literally be life or death.
Please, club away. I'm sure I have earned it.
No Clubs ... as AJ said .. you already self inflict plenty ... but even then in this case I do not see anything club-worthy.
The meds, depression, and drinking are tough. My W has had bouts with the depression ... like you I was/am scared about her facing what she has done and really flipping out about it. Seems currently we are in a "Don't ask/Don't Tell" policy ... but I see her crack here n there.
Thing is ... what I learned the hard way. You can not fix her depression, you can not talk her through it, during the crisis I had to force myself from trying to 'help'. I would protect S and do what I could there ... but W needed to figure it all out without me. Was like tough love parents at times have to do with their own kids ... in a "We Love you but can no longer watch you do this to yourself" approach. W during a dark moment begged me not to leave, knowing OM was in the picture Also knowing he was not there to take care of her .... and reading here to let the OM fill ALL her needs .. I told her I could no longer be that guy ... she cried and said "But you are my Rock" ... I reached into the water feature we had bought years ago .. placed a rock in her hand and told her "Here is your new rock, I can no longer be a part of this life you are leading" and out the door I went ..... cringing the entire time mind you as I realized I just handed my hot-blooded W a very hard projectile.
I am not saying ditch her late ... but she fired you, for the time being let OM fill ALL her needs... sounds like this is not going to happen, which is good.... she needs some alone time to sort out the mess, figure out what she wants ... all while you are creating a better version of yourself.
Meant to add - what is it you want from her?
I want her to be committed to healthy, fulfilling marriage and part of a complete family. I want to sit in the delivery room with her when our grandchildren are born. I want to experience our kids getting married themselves, together.
What do you want for her?
I want her to come to terms with her demons and start living a happy life. Even if that life doesn't include me.
Same for you?
I want a marriage and a family without all of this drama. I'd like for my family unit to be a place where all of us draw strength. I want to grow old with her, move into our twilight years together. Enjoy being grandparents and go see the world. I do want this with W.
Late ... NC with kids is just impossible, no getting around that. What I did was just went NC when it came to anything but S .... W figured this out over time and would use this as a hidden door to communicate .... ie pic of S, to which I would reply every now n then "cute pic ...TY" and she would fire back something nice n sweet just to make sure I was still on the hook. Took some time to wiggle off that hook for me.
S8 and W too had issues ... Like you .. I opt'd for the "The R between you and S is just that .. .between you and S" this worked for some time till W was convinced I was plotting S against her, which led to a truth dart that it was not me who kissed OM in front of S then labeling OM just a "friend" ... kids do understand a lie when they hear one. This was towards the end of the A.
I'm being very diligent in not allowing myself to be drawn into that mess. Something I picked up from reading over your sitch, Cali. I gained so many insights there, I don't think I can ever thank you enough.
This is one area where it easy for me to hold my ground. When she starts spewing that it's my fault, I firmly tell her it isn't. That the kids are capable of thinking for themselves and that it is between them. When she continues with the assault, I don't dignify it with a response and start looking to leave the conversation. I've taken a page from your playbook and refuse to discuss anything significant over the phone or via text.This is the tough part ... they want you where they left you, they will expect to cake eat ... keep you as option #2 as long as they can. Almost like training wheels ... afraid to ride without them or the LBS having a hold of that bike fearing they will crash. Amazing what seems to happen when the LBS is able to drop the rope from a place of strength.
Getting closer to that place of strength. Each and every time I don my spew jacket, I withdraw a little more, I move a little further from the situation. The constant pain in my chest is becoming a dull ache and I am not thinking about what she's doing at all.I think its just nearly impossible to expect a LBS who is still dazed and confused from BD to detach after 20 years with someone. I had no idea who I was without my W, which was part of the problem .... I slowly and surely stopped being me, and to be honest it was not like I could go back 20 years and dig out the old me and say .. here I am .. now Love me. This is why I think the reinvention portion of this is so vital .... seems more so for the LBH as our confidence/self esteem seems so tightly bound to how we are perceived as attractive... which is rough as that's exactly what takes the biggest hit with the BD, A and OM in the situation.
I never considered it that way. I know my self esteem was obliterated. It's slowly coming back. I can look in the mirror now and be relatively content with what I see. I'm 6'4" 190lbs (Lost 40 lbs from the awesome MLC diet) I weigh as much as I did when I was 19, but I'm the strongest I have ever been in my lifetime. I need it too, S16 is a big boy and we wrestle pretty often.
Here's the part I'm struggling with. With pretty much everyone else in my life, I'm pretty easy going and I crack a lot of jokes. With W, all of the walls are up, well over my head and I can't seem to relax and just start cracking jokes. I don't like that one bit. Rather enjoyed making her laugh in the past, but find myself unable to get to that place now. No Clubs ... as AJ said .. you already self inflict plenty ... but even then in this case I do not see anything club-worthy.
The meds, depression, and drinking are tough. My W has had bouts with the depression ... like you I was/am scared about her facing what she has done and really flipping out about it. Seems currently we are in a "Don't ask/Don't Tell" policy ... but I see her crack here n there.
Thing is ... what I learned the hard way. You can not fix her depression, you can not talk her through it, during the crisis I had to force myself from trying to 'help'. I would protect S and do what I could there ... but W needed to figure it all out without me. Was like tough love parents at times have to do with their own kids ... in a "We Love you but can no longer watch you do this to yourself" approach. W during a dark moment begged me not to leave, knowing OM was in the picture Also knowing he was not there to take care of her .... and reading here to let the OM fill ALL her needs .. I told her I could no longer be that guy ... she cried and said "But you are my Rock" ... I reached into the water feature we had bought years ago .. placed a rock in her hand and told her "Here is your new rock, I can no longer be a part of this life you are leading" and out the door I went ..... cringing the entire time mind you as I realized I just handed my hot-blooded W a very hard projectile.
I actually accepted a long time ago that I couldn't cure her of her depression. I have tried to offer support when she needed it and give her time to listen to music / draw / write when she needed that. The rough part is the therapy / meds. I feel like I can't bring them up, but also know that she needs professional help to deal with it. Similar situation to her drinking. If I try to "force" her to get help, it doesn't work. If I sit around and do nothing about it, I feel like I am enabling her. Felt like my hands were tied. It is interesting to watch her sometimes. She has been so fervent in convincing people that OM is great for her that she keeps insisting to me that she doesn't drink any more.
Just the other day, she told me she hadn't had a drink in 3 weeks, yet I was able to think of 4 different times that week alone that she had been drunk. I'd love to see her get sober, don't care what her motivation is, as long as it works for her. I just don't get the current attitude. It's almost like she's asking me to challenge her. (Which I don't, I stay well clear of that. I am not saying ditch her late ... but she fired you, for the time being let OM fill ALL her needs... sounds like this is not going to happen, which is good.... she needs some alone time to sort out the mess, figure out what she wants ... all while you are creating a better version of yourself.
Excellent advice as always. Thanks again, Cali.
Like she's challenging you? Yes. Except it's you and not you she's challenging, right? You are more representative.
That's why it's important to calmly and plainly not bite at the spew apple when its dangled. You're doing great with that by your description.
It is interesting to watch her sometimes.
Yes it is, but be careful. I know from experience that can be an addiction.
It's an addiction with a lot of pain for you.
The analogy of it being like a child and tough love is spot on. But be careful not to become the "parent". You're not that person, and you don't need to be cast as that person. It's not the right fit and will mire you down in a bad dynamic.
You know what you want for her. You know what you want from her. You know what you want in general. But let's just say you get part of what you want. What would that be? What are you willing to accept in lieu of getting all of it. Not that getting all of it is out of reach. It's anyone's guess at this point. But what are your priorities in that list?
It's likely going to be a long time while you wait. What are you doing for you? What are you doing to GAL and reinvent yourself? To build the rest of that family unit you want?
What does Late30's 2.0 start to look like in your future vision? Just you. I suspect there are a few things you'd like to change about yourself, right? What are they?
One more thought for the night
Be careful of other women. You're a bit vulnerable, down 40 pounds, and likely very friendly when not around W. Seems there's a lot of people that find that very attractive, may also be vulnerable at this point in their lives, and that would be a set back in your relationship that might be hard to overcome with W.
Put some thought into what 2.0 looks like. I think you'll find that worthwhile.
Keep up the good work and don't let the spew stick to you.
AJ
The analogy of it being like a child and tough love is spot on. But be careful not to become the "parent". You're not that person, and you don't need to be cast as that person. It's not the right fit and will mire you down in a bad dynamic.
This is one of the areas I feel like I really need to be careful with. She has mentioned before that it's like I'm her father, and this was prespewfest. I didn't agree with her then, but I've since come to realize that how she felt wasn't really up for argument. I don't want her to feel this way any longer.
You know what you want for her. You know what you want from her. You know what you want in general. But let's just say you get part of what you want. What would that be? What are you willing to accept in lieu of getting all of it. Not that getting all of it is out of reach. It's anyone's guess at this point. But what are your priorities in that list?
I'd very much like to say that a healthy marriage with her is at the top of that list, but it isn't. First and foremost I would like to see her move beyond the selfish, angry person she is at the moment. That would move to the second priority, I'd like to see her be a good mother to our kids again. She's really dropped the ball in this regard, but I don't think she can be a good mother without moving out of her current funk. After those two, it would be our marriage restored.
It's likely going to be a long time while you wait. What are you doing for you? What are you doing to GAL and reinvent yourself? To build the rest of that family unit you want?
In terms of getting a life. I have started working a lot, while that isn't exactly GAL, it does provide me the means to move in the direction I want to. I have been reconnecting with friends I haven't seen in years. I am involved with my side of the family again, during our M, my family was put on the back burner. Saturday's have become family day. Trips to various national parks, building up camping equipment.
When I was growing up, I had to be very self sufficient. If I wanted to go somewhere, I had to figure it out on my own. I carried this mindset into adulthood and my boys have seen it. Rarely would I give them a ride anywhere. I have changed that mindset and have made myself pretty available to my kids.
What does Late30's 2.0 start to look like in your future vision? Just you. I suspect there are a few things you'd like to change about yourself, right? What are they?
I'd like to be more empathetic. I want to get into the gym and channel this weight loss further. I want to quit smoking. I'd like to get caffeine out of my system. I'd like to have more restraint. There are times if I get some notion in my head, I usually speak on that matter fairly quickly. Often times with poor timing. I'd love to have complete control over my temper. I rarely get angry, but when I do I tend to be very abrasive with my words. Almost going from ice cold to boiling hot instantly. It generally passes in 15-30 seconds, but I would like to keep from saying things I will regret later.
One more thought for the night
Be careful of other women. You're a bit vulnerable, down 40 pounds, and likely very friendly when not around W. Seems there's a lot of people that find that very attractive, may also be vulnerable at this point in their lives, and that would be a set back in your relationship that might be hard to overcome with W.
Almost like you're in my head, heh. Seems that I stop to remind myself of this more often than I used to. Though it was a nice little ego boost to have the 22 year old blonde hitting on me. I had to stop and laugh at myself after the fact, going through all this and I found myself considering one of the most classic MLC moves -- pursuing someone nearly half my age. I didn't consider it long and am able to chuckle about it now, but if I am being honest with myself, I did consider it.
Put some thought into what 2.0 looks like. I think you'll find that worthwhile.
I'll do that. I will have a comprehensive list in a few days. Thanks again, AJ.
Journal and stuff:
D12 was with W today. I get a text from W saying that D12 will have her phone today. I called D12 this morning and discovered that W had put D12 on a bus (public transit type) to get her to school. Sent her by herself because she can't afford the bus fare for both of them. This may be me being hyper protective of D12 (I know that I am) but this idea made me very uncomfortable.
My initial reaction was shocked and a bit of anger in my voice. I told D12 to have a nice day. Gave it some thought as I was driving to work and called her back. Decided that since I was the one who was uncomfortable with this, it is my problem. I told D12 that I would be picking her up from school and driving her back. She called W and told her this, which put W into a frenzy. I didn't know W was in a frenzy and had already decided that I wasn't going to point fingers in blame.
So D12 got out of school and I picked her up. She called OMs phone from Ws phone and started to talk to W. I asked for the phone and started talking to W. Asked W to meet me at a strip mall near her apartment complex to drop off D, was met with some spew, but she did meet me there. (I won't go to their apartment anymore and she knows this.)
Asked W to sit down a minute so we could talk, D12 put in her headphones and W became immediately defensive. Took a little while but I finally convinced her that I wasn't angry, but I was uncomfortable with D12 riding the bus alone. More defensive stuff from W, which I responded to be assuring her she didn't need to be defensive. Told since I was the person that this made uncomfortable, that I would take care of it. Be it I drive down and get D12 in the morning and take her to school on the 2 days she is with W or I would send D12 with enough bus fare so she wouldn't have to ride the bus alone.
To be fair, I can understand why W was on the defensive, old Late would have been very upset about this and would have lectured and or yelled at W as a result. Perhaps a 180 for Late? I think so. I feel good with how I handled myself, even empathized with Ws financial woes a little. (Her decision to be in this, but it does make common things difficult.)
I got off work and didn't have to deliver pizza tonight. I picked up D12 and W. Dropped D12 off at home, W and I went to a park. Hung out for a while, she talked to me about what is going on with her. I managed to keep my trap shut and gathered valuable intel. (Thanks Cali!)
Seems OM didn't get fired, he quit. No hope of any unemployment to bail him out. He hasn't been looking for work. W works fifteen hours a week. She is fed up. Can't stand his friends, can't stand his daughter and is quickly losing patience for him. Said that our S18 talked to her about getting an apartment with her. Told her I liked the idea, gives her a chance to work on her without me or OM in the picture. She agreed that she could use that, but time will tell if that is the truth or not.
W told me she doesn't want to work any longer. Wants to focus on her artwork (she is very talented). Wants to get a puppy. Wants a whole family. (I am still of the believe none of what they say mindset.) She is very jealous of my life now? Says her life is going to sh** and mine is headed up. Doesn't think it's fair. I did tell her I was willing to share what I had with her. (Pursuing methinks, I am still working out this DBing thing.)
All in all I feel like today went very well. Was able to show her a 180 with my reaction to how she handled getting D to school. Managed to keep my mouth shut for the most part. I avoided my issues with her entirely. She was warm and friendly when we parted ways (temp checking, we did part ways so she could return to OMs apartment). I even managed to not get defensive when the spew started and she apologized later. (Big thing for her, she RARELY apologizes.)
Stuff:
Link to the other thread I could find of AJs,
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1761045#Post1761045Bad Joke,
3 old men are at the doctor for a memory test. The doctor says to the first old man, "What is three times three"? "274" was his reply. The doctor says to the second man "It's your turn. What is three times three"? "Tuesday" replies the second man. The doctor says to the third man, "OK, Your turn. What's three times three"? "Nine" says the third man. "That's great" says the doctor. "How did you get that"? "Simple" says the third man. "I subtracted 274 from Tuesday".
LOL. I like that joke.
I think you're doing fine with the immediate changes and how you're handling the interactions. Keep up that trajectory.
Looking forward to the list.
AJ
Update time:
Wife was with me this weekend. Saturday went well. She talked a lot, I listened. She told me we could discuss R stuff on Sunday.
Sunday was up and down, I did talk to her about some R stuff, basically trying to figure out where he head is at and where she is headed. Laid a few more things about what I would need to see if she were to return home. She talked a lot as well.
Some of the things she had to say stuck with me. Seems she is going to lose her apartment. Short of a miracle, she and OM will be unable to make rent before they are served an eviction notice. Told her that I do want her to come back home, but only for the right reasons. I don't think it would be good for us at this time for her to come back due to a lack of options. At this point she is considering a studio apartment, moving in with BIL, or getting an apartment with S18. She tells me she doesn't intend to follow OM because she wants some time alone to figure things out. Believe none of what they say still echos in the back of my head, but I am hopeful. Assume the best, prepare for the worst is my mindset at this point.
I listened to her rant about her life quite a bit the past couple of days. She is very depressed right now. Feels like nothing is "right" in her life. Told me that OM has "spent two years shredding her life." That he is a child. She is frustrated that he quit his job with no notice and is not making any real efforts to find gainful employment. Again, I find myself hopeful here, but will not push the issue. I hope that she is starting to see OM for what he is and I also hope that she is moving down her tunnel a little further. Not many things were my fault in this discussion and the things she said were my fault were justified. I've been critical to her, she is afraid to return to our old M. No crazy accusations headed my way. I also see that this is merely a small step in the right direction. Many parts of our discussion worry me. Mainly her trying to paint herself as the victim in every situation. I didn't say anything to her about it.
All in all, I felt pretty good with this weekend. I never lost my cool, though she did say a few times that she felt I was being critical. It is becoming more difficult for me to see, but I think a lot of it dates back to our M when I was overly critical. I think she has become hypersensitive to this. I feel like if I can cross this threshold with her, where she isn't hypersensitive to every little thing I say, we may just have a chance. Or perhaps I am still critical, not as overtly perhaps? This part does concern me because this part of Late 1.0 that I don't want to see in the upgrade.
So some reflection ... things I want to see in my new self or part of my old self I want to leave behind.
Left Behind:
*Jealousy
*Being overly critical
*Controlling behavior
*Making comments in anger
New Me:
*Great Father(*)
*Empathetic
*Kind
*Able to clearly state and enforce my own boundaries(*)
*Fit(*)
*Non-smoker(*)
*Funny(*)
*Able to STFU and listen(*)
*Able to forgive(*)
*Successful Software Engineer(*)
*More involved with family (extended family)(*)
*Reliable
*Helpful
*Patient
*Happy with who I am (*)
*Introspection (*)
(*) denotes a quality that needs work to be integrated into Late 2.0
Thanks, AJ. I will review this often, see what I would like to add if anything.
It occurs to me that I would also like to chronicle what I am doing to remove the behaviors I am unhappy with.
Jealousy / Controlling behavior: I reached a point some time ago where I accepted that I can't control Ws behavior, or anyone else's. One part that helped me a lot was considering the following. If W makes plans to go out for an evening without me, I could react in a number of ways. If I panic and allow jealousy to take control of me, I am showing W that I do not trust her or her judgement. By acting in this way, I push W further away. If instead I accept that W will do what W will do, that it is beyond my ability to control and simply wish her a good time. I show an element of trust. I build on our foundation. W doesn't feel like she has to hide as much or be scolded / lectured for her behavior (Not my place to do). Makes for a lot less stress for me and for her. She is able to enjoy herself. I believe it is a love builder and not a love buster. I have adopted this approach to the current situation, more for my own sanity than anything else. Allowing myself to be jealous was serving no positive purpose and only served to increase my stress levels. W still did what W wanted to do.
Being overly critical: This is something I have been exposed to my entire life. People in my family have been very critical of every action I have ever done and I find that I have been critical as well. When I first started working on this, I had to stop and ask myself, "How do I become less critical?" This one has been very hard. What has worked for me in some regard is to think carefully before I speak. Means an awkward silence sometimes, but I prefer that to my being critical. I think about the point I want to make and think if there is some way to make my point without being critical. If there is great, if I can't think of one I ask if I can answer the question later or I simply say nothing. Accepting that I don't need to have a say on every subject has helped in this as well. This one continues to be a work in progress.
Making comments in anger: I am improving here. Being able to accept awkward silences while I ponder a reply has helped quite a bit. Only really get angry with W at this point and that is happening less and less. This continues to be a work in progress as well.
late
Always good to get to those core things that one must work on... regardless of your sitch, these are healthy to rid yourself of right ... for YOU ... do not worry about the effects they have on W, while what she has done may have put this all into motion...changing for her is not the way to go about this.
That list of yours, can you see the strings that tie them all together? One leads to the other and so on ... You are Jealous, you try to control, you criticize then you become angry at the results not meeting your own expectations.
Jealousy/Control ... I feel were a couple of the things I had to deal with, something that flared up over my life with W and I put it into my own perspective. What did being controlling and jealous with my W gain me ... well when I acted out this way she simply stopped sharing with me things, which lead to relationships with men underground, this added to the excitement and eventually when the planets aligned a full blown affair. My fears then became reality. Lesson learned, God himself gave us all free will, not even He can control his children who did I think I was to think I could possibly control W? Now ... she either wants to be with me or doesn't, her choice .. free will.
Critisim... was not something I did much of, I was more the Passive/Aggressive type. But same approach ... before you act out in this way you have to sip a STFU smoothie and ask yourself, is this 2.0 type behavior .. or am I letting the hurt little boy talk here? If I could not hear John Wayne/ Clint Eastwood repeat my words I chose not to say them.
Anger ... by far my toughest challenge and my W still reserved even 2 years after BD about this coming out ... I have made huge strides but its like lava bubbling under the surface at times. Patience, breathing, taking a walk to really sort out what is going on, is it an over-reation or should I be upset. Accepting Anger is a natural emotion, not one you always have to suppress helped me out as I felt every time I was angry it was wrong to experience that feeling, which fed it more out of frustration. Sometimes its ok to get mad, its how you deal with that which liberates you from it.
Keep going late.
That list of yours, can you see the strings that tie them all together? One leads to the other and so on ... You are Jealous, you try to control, you criticize then you become angry at the results not meeting your own expectations.
I had only seen it so far as Jealousy => Control. I certainly agree with you.
A different Yoda said, Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
I think a version I can relate to: Jealousy is the path to doomed marriages. Jealousy leads to Control. Control leads to Criticism. Criticism leads to Anger. Anger leads to doomed marriage. Jealousy/Control ... I feel were a couple of the things I had to deal with, something that flared up over my life with W and I put it into my own perspective. What did being controlling and jealous with my W gain me ... well when I acted out this way she simply stopped sharing with me things, which lead to relationships with men underground, this added to the excitement and eventually when the planets aligned a full blown affair. My fears then became reality. Lesson learned, God himself gave us all free will, not even He can control his children who did I think I was to think I could possibly control W? Now ... she either wants to be with me or doesn't, her choice .. free will.
Wise words. By and large I have reached this point. Critisim... was not something I did much of, I was more the Passive/Aggressive type. But same approach ... before you act out in this way you have to sip a STFU smoothie and ask yourself, is this 2.0 type behavior .. or am I letting the hurt little boy talk here? If I could not hear John Wayne/ Clint Eastwood repeat my words I chose not to say them.
In my mind it will be Yoda. Makes for more interesting deliveries. Anger ... by far my toughest challenge and my W still reserved even 2 years after BD about this coming out ... I have made huge strides but its like lava bubbling under the surface at times. Patience, breathing, taking a walk to really sort out what is going on, is it an over-reation or should I be upset. Accepting Anger is a natural emotion, not one you always have to suppress helped me out as I felt every time I was angry it was wrong to experience that feeling, which fed it more out of frustration. Sometimes its ok to get mad, its how you deal with that which liberates you from it.
I really appreciate all the advise, Cali. Thank you so much for following my sitch. It does mean a lot. You're awesome for a Chargers fan!
Hah! I was able to quote you as Yoda.
Nice. Quotes are always fun.
Always good to get to those core things that one must work on... regardless of your sitch, these are healthy to rid yourself of right ... for YOU ... do not worry about the effects they have on W, while what she has done may have put this all into motion...changing for her is not the way to go about this.
I think that's a great list and I highly encourage you to check on it regularly. But I cannot stress enough how important it is that those changes are for YOU, as Cali mentions.
I can tell you the other side of it. I cared very deeply about my family. I cared very deeply about my ex. But looking back I can honestly say that with ex, I was never controlling nor jealous. With the kids? I was a parent and at times a little harsher than I liked. I cared too much at times to the point of being...selfish. I didn't always have the mindset of letting them grow through things, but rather tried too much to protect and lead. Not always, but at times.
At bd, ex accused me of being too harsh with the kids. Mind you, that was after all the other accusations faded. During that time, she did accept her actions...for a while. Then suddenly, she was painting herself as the victim. I recall she went through "personalities" trying to find one that fit and along with that, she tried many accusations. When one didn't fit, she "erased" that and tried another one until she left. Then the anger returned, except through her husband (OM) and her. Interesting to say the least.
What I'm getting at is this. During this process I had to challenge everything about me. Everything that wasn't what I wanted, dropped to the ground. I became much calmer without ex around. I became less controlling of the kids and more supportive. I wasn't bad prior, but there was plenty of room for improvement from my view. In the end, I made changes for ME. Not for anyone else. At first they were about ex. But that didn't last long. I quickly realized that wasn't the path I wanted to be on and come hell or high water, I wasn't about to let her take my identity beyond that of wusband.
Shift the focus from "I do this because of her" to "I make these changes for ME" sooner than later. You are right that she is going to do what she is going to do regardless or you actions. It's not like fishing or building a house.
The only thing you really need to do where it concerns W is to try and leave the door open for her should she decide to return. And try to encourage the relationship between her and the kids as best you can. And never, ever say a disparaging thing about their mother where the kids can hear it. They'll figure it out on their own (likely already have) and are responsible for their thoughts about it. And it's never encouraging to have somebody you trust talk bad about your moms. Most people would happily throat punch you if you talked about their moms like that. Treat your kids with the same respect
Other than that, you are free to focus on you and just you. Buckle up - it's quite a ride.
AJ
Update:
W and I are talking less and less. I don't see her often, generally during the hostage exchange.
That Software Engineer door cracked open a little more for me this week. I had someone interested enough in my resume to schedule an interview with me. I nailed the interview. Answered all of the technical questions and tossed out a few bad jokes.
The lady in charge asked me to send her some more of my work and told me I have a "Pretty good" chance of getting the job. Even if I don't end up getting the job, it was a great boost to the ego to catch some interest. At this point I feel like it is only a matter of time until I get a job in the field.
Wife was very upset I even got the interview. Cried to me that she has to go borrow someones internet in order to apply at McDonalds and that I am getting interviews in my dream job. Wasn't really sure what to say to this, told her it sucked she didn't have internet and that my excitement over the interview was for me, had nothing to do with her.
Nice job. Is that a career move or have you always been a software dev?
AJ
It's quite a career move. I spent most of my life in pizza. I was a GM for 9 years. I decided that I wanted a more economy proof career and went back to school. I have been slowly working towards my BS in Computer Science and find myself with five classes remaining. Demand seems high enough that I am seeing the door to that career path opening more and more. I know far too many languages and I am not too far from a degree in mathematics as well.
The field is fairly lucrative and I enjoy the work. Getting a job in this field will be a huge step for me.
Stop me if you've heard this one ...
["hip"]. ["hip"]
hip, hip, array
I think that's awesome. And whatever you do, try to get the double major. Totally worth it as a foundation for the next step you may want to take later.
And yes, that's a very hot market. What may be more interesting for you later is your background as a GM and customer service - both skills most programmers sorely lack
You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll need to make choices about what you like the most about your new job(s).
I say jobs in plural because don't be quick to move, but don't be afraid either. A job hopper is not a good thing in most cases, but getting the good jobs (not measured by pay necessarily) can take a little movement. Good jobs to me are the ones that line up with my personal passions and I've taken both pay cuts and significant raises over the years to pursue them. (I'm not a programmer, although I've played one on the internet. I work in that field though and once had a job teaching programming).
In your neck of the woods, it's a hot market for that skill set. And if you like that kind of work, so much the better!
Go get 'em.
AJ
Update:
W was with me all weekend. Went fairly well, I brought up R stuff a few times. I am so frustrated with myself for it. Why is it I can do almost everything else, but have such a hard time not talking about our R?! I brought this up to me therapist and he suggested it was because my needs aren't being met in the slightest and so when I suppress them, they eventually force their way out.
We talked about our past quite a bit this weekend. By and large I kept quiet about it, listened to what she had to say. Found a few pearls to stash away and I had a chance to make some progress on her issues with my A some 13 years ago. This has been an ongoing thing for her. I honestly believe that it was the biggest mistake I ever made. It caused nothing but pain for every person even remotely close to it. I want to move forward though, and I can certainly accept that we need to move beyond this at her pace, it just seems like over a decade is a bit long. For a long time I felt like we had moved forward but part of me feels like all the animosity has resurfaced in an attempt to justify her current A.
In speaking about my A, I told that I had in fact affaired down. That with the exception of a few months of intense fog on my part, she has always been my first choice for a life partner. This was the first time I felt like she had heard me when it came to that I hope that it sticks. She also told me that she affaired down. Which was surprising to me, anytime she mentions OM it is to try to tell me how great he is. I have done my best to nip the comparisons in the bud, but it was nice to hear.
Her puppy is staying with me for a little while. I believe this is in preparation of the coming eviction she is facing. She wants puppy to be acclimated to the other animals here so I can take him while she continues her journey.
The eviction will be served on Thursday. That will give it another thirty days or so till she is homeless. Currently they are both unemployed and I don't think they have any real job prospects. As the eviction looms closer, she seems to be pulling deeper into fantasy land. I was hoping some of you wonderful folks would be able to offer some advice as to how I proceed? How I interact with her?
My current game plan is to continue along my path, help puppy if he needs a place to go and to refuse her a place to stay until she can show me some proof that OM will not be an issue and that she is willing to entertain the idea of rebuilding our M. I find myself somewhat conflicted here though, I don't want to see her on the streets, but she may very well end up there. She has a brother and a sister in town. Brother is FURIOUS with her over what she has done. If he were to take her in, OM would not be welcome at all at his house. Sister isn't as furious but seems to share the same sentiments towards OM. I don't think her sister will have room regardless. All of her friends have turned their backs on her, I don't think she will get much help from them.
Any and all input is appreciated at this point.
Yeah, getting past an affair can really hurt or help a relationship. Hard to say which until after the race is run. You're not done running the race, so no way to tell how either of your actions will work out.
My suggestion for your W and the coming eviction? I suggest you not let her back nor try to help her. You can do both compassionately but firmly. I doubt seriously it is in either of you best interest to be together at the moment.
As much as you'd like the past to be reconciled, that's really what MLC is about isn't it? Reconciling one's past. If you can step past the idea of liking it to be over, what are some other steps you can take? One suggestion is to really be a better listener. You can see how hard it is, right? And as much as I imagine the affair hurt her, I doubt that's the whole story at this point as to what she needs to reconcile in her past.
Yesterday is yesterday, and what she does or doesn't do is up to her. You on the other hand need to focus on you and what you can do. This time apart might be a good thing for you
AJ
Yeah, getting past an affair can really hurt or help a relationship. Hard to say which until after the race is run. You're not done running the race, so no way to tell how either of your actions will work out.
My suggestion for your W and the coming eviction? I suggest you not let her back nor try to help her. You can do both compassionately but firmly. I doubt seriously it is in either of you best interest to be together at the moment.
I agree here, but I am worried. How do I approach it with the kids if she finds herself homeless? So far I have been their rock. I have been reliable for them. I don't know how to tell them that their mother isn't welcome back here -- even if she is homeless.As much as you'd like the past to be reconciled, that's really what MLC is about isn't it? Reconciling one's past. If you can step past the idea of liking it to be over, what are some other steps you can take? One suggestion is to really be a better listener. You can see how hard it is, right? And as much as I imagine the affair hurt her, I doubt that's the whole story at this point as to what she needs to reconcile in her past.
I will take your suggestion to heart. Some others that come to mind coincide with the direction Late2.0 is headed. Less critical, firm control over my temper, healthy outlets for anger and jealousy. And above all, kindness. Yesterday is yesterday, and what she does or doesn't do is up to her. You on the other hand need to focus on you and what you can do. This time apart might be a good thing for you
I can see the good in it too. The hardest part for me is the lack of progress. Forward or backwards. I like to be able to solve problems, get a game plan together and attack them. This stagnant, patient approach is grueling. There are days when it saps all of my endurance, all of my strength. AJ
You are such a wise man, sir. Thank you for taking the time to pass your wisdom on to my situation.
I do NOT want her to return under these circumstances. I feel like I can survive one of these, I don't want to return to the status quo and wait for another bomb to drop. She needs to finish her journey.
Late, I read your posts. I get it. I've been there. I made the mistake of allowing/encouraging her to come back too soon. I hope you don't do same. It really is that painful for all concerned.
She should come back for the right reasons - i.e. she wants to be there, not because she is out of options. Otherwise, it's temporary until you both do the work. Seriously.
Looking at your posts, I think you know that. I think you also have a good head on your shoulders and realize that this is not a quick hit item and takes time. Lots of time.
I have no regrets, but if I had it to do over again, I would have picked the other road where she didn't come back so soon. She wasn't done. Still doesn't seem to be all these years later. Maybe she just doesn't have the tools, but that's how it seems.
Focus on yourself and the family. Evaluate her for her maturity and use of tools. Evaluate yourself as well. If she comes back too soon, it won't end well. And don't be fooled - they can be very persuasive. Very
Take your time and take the space to learn about you and make the tools you need to be better. It's hard when the momentum swings back and forth, but it's worth taking the time.
The spew is a good indicator of where she is currently. Blaming you for her actions is a good sign that you BOTH need to work on some things before she returns.
Have I said it enough times??
Things don't have to end this way, but they do need to be repaired. By both of you and for the right reasons. The alternative is not pleasant...
AJ
I agree. I believe my husband started his MLC in 2012. he left me and I believe he came back home too early. Yet, here we are again and this time it is much worse.
I wish you nothing but the best, Haunted. Thanks for the support!
Logically I agree with not letting her return too soon. I just don't know if I am strong enough to deny her if she turns on the charm.
I wish you nothing but the best, Haunted. Thanks for the support!
Logically I agree with not letting her return too soon. I just don't know if I am strong enough to deny her if she turns on the charm.
I know exactly what you mean. It's hard to not get drawn back in. I deal with it every time I see my husband. Hopefully with time, you will get stronger with it.
So minor update:
I GOT THE JOB!
I am starting as a software engineer, I have a grown up title and stuff!
So excited, been running around the house for the last hour. I'm still in shock.
Minor update:
Saw W today for lunch. We discussed the new job. Prior to all of this I have not made much money. I work hard, and I work two jobs, but it doesn't add up to a lot. I have made enough to get by. With the new job, it is a significant quality of life increase. I told W the door was still open and that I would like to share it with her. Pursuing, yes. It felt right though. I have no intention of constantly pointing it out, but I look forward to money not being as big of a deal as it once was.
Anyhow, the mindset here was to plant the seed. I hope that I did it correctly. Conversation went well enough and we spent a fair amount of our time discussing her newest writing project.
It has already happened and I won't condemn myself for it, but does a conversation like that come across in the wrong way?
I guess what I'm asking is, does a conversation like that hurt my chances at R?
This weekend was ... interesting?
W is the person who pushed me to go back to school. Chances are I would have remained in pizza and been content, but she pushed and now I find myself in a better position than I ever have been.
W confessed to me that she feels like she did all this work to help me to get to this point and now she wants to reap the rewards so to speak. She also confessed that she is still in love with me. Also, she said that she has noticed all the work I have done on myself, says she is really confused on what to do now. She says she is sick of the limbo and feels like she needs to make a decision soon. Either cut me out of her life and pursue things with OM or cut him out and recommit herself to rebuilding our M.
I am doing my best to stay calm and level, not get my hopes up and not let this get to me too much, but I am finding it difficult. It seems that she is nearing the point of returning here and I want the road paved smoothly for that return. At the moment I do plan on continuing to act as if my M is over and move forward with my life. Everything else in my life is going great. Excellent rapport with the kiddos now, great news on the job front, stopped working the second job, so I am not nearly as exhausted as I once was, returning to school in a few weeks, constant GAL events with friends and family. I am in therapy. Finances are well under control. But without her, it all seems a little dimmed.
I feel good about where I am in my life and I feel good about voicing what I want from a relationship and a marriage. I believe that my goals for a relationship are healthy. Maybe I am a sucker, but I believe that W and I can meet those goals together if she chooses to return and work on building our M. At this point I feel like I am simply rambling. I'm open to any advice or comments.
Late
Just caught up on your sitch a bit. Congrats on the job . I too just prior
to BD landed a 'solid' job and thought . 'okay . this will not fix
everything but it should help' Thing is . they are going through so much
more and there seems to be a point no matter how much more improved we (The
LBH) get .. it is viewed as reactionary (especially early on). with them
thinking/saying g "Oh sure NOW he gets his act together, well it's too late
I found happiness (or so they think). It takes a bit for these changes to
take root . and even longer for them to become real . and yet more time
required for the WAS to actually believe and trust these things truly
happened.
I would strongly caution any actions to get back together, she is not done
cooking. Sure you appear to be a H only a fool would leave (At the least
working very hard in that direction right?), and she might even be able to
see that through the fog . that being said you are pressing a bit .. re-read
your last few posts .. you are pursuing, initiating R talks . she is on the
fence and will continue limbo until she hits bottom but at the moment she
knows you are still there . right where she put you so there is no reason
for her to process things on her own.. Cake eating is right there if she
chooses to do so.. My W dropped OM over half a dozen times . they waffle
back and forth, cake eat and just cannot sort anything out .. again this is
their crisis but when we the LBS are to close .. hanging on to tight .. it
does nothing but keep us stuck from growing and becoming better. It's one
thing to pave the path home smoothly . just be careful not to paint yourself
in a corner as you do so.
You're right. I am pressing a bit.
It's becoming more difficult to remain strong when I'm around her. I keep telling myself that the best thing for both of us is to simply let her go. So far she has seen some realities of her decisions with this. Kids won't talk, her family won't talk to her, she's lost many friends. She is living in poverty.
When I got the job, I wanted so badly for her to see it. It's something we had been dreaming about for years now, when I finally get a job in my field, things will get much better. So many late night talks just imagining life when this happened. It's been a dream of hers as well. When I finally realized that goal and she wasn't there to share it with me, I felt like I had cheated her a bit. I felt like Jerry McGuire.
I may be having difficulties completely cutting her loose, but I can be stronger in my interactions with her. No more pursuing her, even with our shared dreams.
Thanks for the input, Cali. Helped me to stop and think about it a bit.
The other big issue I have been facing. For months now, W continues to tell me that she believes she will be dead before this is all over. She sees only misery in any of her choices. She told me that she wants to start seeing a therapist, but can't afford it. I am in full support of her doing this and after she expressed an interest in it, I told her I would handle the financials of it.
She is supposed to be doing an intake today, she tried to commit suicide last night. Told me she ate a bunch of pills and just ended up vomiting the whole night. How does one handle this? I asked her if still planned on doing her intake today and she said she is even more committed to it. Apart from paying for the professional help, I don't feel like I should be doing anything else. I'm worried though, I really don't want my kids to not have their mother at all. I have no desire to be a widower.
You need to let the place or person that is doing the intake know about the suicide attempt- she might not tell them. They can't discuss her with you, but that shouldn't keep you from telling them that she attempted suicide. This is very dangerous.
I will be letting them know, thanks kml.
So in reading over my last few posts, they have been about W far too much.
Not much to update for me. I am only working the one job now. Got my tuition all caught up so I get to start classes again in November. (Yay!) I have 15 credits left to get my Bachelor's. I remain super excited to start the new job. Just eeking out my two weeks here.
Journal:
This whole week, W has reached out to me to have lunch with me. It has been trying for me, but I wouldn't change that part of it. I have remained steady and tend to just hang out with her. I listen to her a lot. She told me that she wants to fix things with me. She sees that as the best choice. Doesn't love OM. He is a band-aid. Still lives there, so I take it all with a grain of salt. Was nice to hear though.
Days are not moving quickly enough.
Silly work interrupted my entry!
Days are not moving fast enough, I become more and more anxious to start the new job. Things with the kids remain good. Honestly every facet of my life is good at this point, save W.
I studied kung fu for a while when I was a teenager, looking into starting that up again. It amazed me how much it helped me to find peace as a teenager, I look forward to finding peace again as an adult.
If I may make a suggestion: don't let up on the degree. Make that a priority in your life.
As for the rest - it's good that you keep the lines of communication open with W. Just be careful of her wanting to come back too soon. And keep up the listening. A good rule of thumb is 70/30. Listen 70% of the time at the very least. With MLCrs - try to do more, but don't do less.
Keep up the good work and good luck with the new job!
AJ
It is absolutely a priority in my life. I'm so close I can taste it. In a few weeks I will resume classes full-time. My school has a strange term set up. Eight week terms. Full time is two classes per term. I resume at the end of October. By this time next year, I will have my degree and a substantial increase in my earning potential.
And you should know at this point, AJ. Your suggestions are always welcome.
So this weekend has me reeling a bit. Not much, but a little bit.
W was with us the entire weekend. I stayed good, no R talks, kept up my PMA, no pressure from me. Saturday we drove down to my new job. I had planned on doing this if she came or not. I wanted to show it to the kids. She opted to join us. That drive is about when I started reeling. She spent the vast majority of this weekend talking about the different kinds of houses *we* should be looking into buying.
After the trip down there, she called her brother to see if we could all come over. She hasn't included me in a trip to her brother's house in a very long time. While we were there she was affectionate with me in front of her family. Used lots of nicknames with me.
Sunday we hung out watching Netflix, she put on Realty Brothers and we watched it the majority of the day. They help people to find their dream homes by fixing up cheaper homes. She continued the house talk. Started looking at places in a nearby mountain town and came to the startling realization that those will be in my price range within the next year. She got really excited, called the kids in and started talking about *our* future home.
Earlier in the evening we went to a park close to here, it has an amazing view of the sunset and honestly I had just planned on going up there, hanging out a bit, and watching the sunset. She broke down while we were there, said that there will be a resolution to this situation soon. Started talking about how she realizes she can't have what she wants in life with OM, wants family and stability, she understands that I am the person that offers her that. After the park, she made it known that she was interested in ML. We went home and did that. I made a mistake here, but it has been a long time and I have a difficult time telling her no.
She went back to the apartment, but for the first time in a long time it felt like we connected, like she is starting to wake up a bit. This all comes after a week of her asking me to see her over lunch. I have seen her for the last nine days, this is the most time we have spent together since BD. I have been really good about keeping myself centered and not pressuring her. We have enjoyed each other's company.
I refuse to set myself up for a world of hurt, but there is a part of me that is hopeful now. A small part, but it did increase in size this week. I imagine I should now prepare myself for her to back way off and I am okay with that. Hopefully she'll actually do some thinking.
One great thing I can take from this week, I have become much better about allowing her to see my changes as well. For a long time I kept them from her. I was completely walled up around her, it was nice to let some of that tension down.
My concerns about this weekend:
She was acting very much like my wife and that nothing was wrong. She presented this to her brother and his family, her sister and her family, our kids, and to me. I want this to be the case, but I don't want to see my kids get their hopes dashed.
I'm getting the feeling that she wants to return and just sweep all of the last year under the rug and I can't do that. I don't intend to hold this time over her head in any future arguments but there has been a lot of hurt and I feel like it does need to be addressed. I have expressed to her that I want both of us to have a happy, fulfilling marriage and I would like for it be to each other, but the important part is the happy, fulfilling marriage. I am willing to wait to address this stuff if she comes back, I just don't want her to think that it will never be addressed.
I don't think that she has done any work for herself in this time. How could she? I have been the evil husband for most of the time, everything has been my fault. It has only been the past month or so that she has started to see that I am not responsible for everything going wrong in her life. It seems that is falling to OM. While part of me does chuckle at the idea of him receiving that kind of treatment, I am truly concerned that she doesn't look at her involvement in things. She continues to be the victim who is justified in hurting anyone that doesn't agree with her.
That's about all I have for this weekend. I think it will be nice to come back here and read over this stuff. I feel like this weekend was a pretty big turning point in our dynamic, but time will tell.
Edit *I aer spel gud*
Minor update:
Saw W for lunch today, though mostly saw spew monster. Was told today that I pushed into her to living with OM, gave her no other choices. I told her I thought that was utterly ridiculous. She had many other options once she decided to leave, it was her decision to go to him, not mine. Don't put that on me. She also told me that she would give OM up if it meant she could have the kids, I told her I would go for that. Told her to get out of his place and get out on her own. We could discuss joint custody of the kids, a 50/50 split, perhaps even more in her favor. At the moment, the boys want nothing to do with her, S16 has yet to go to her apartment. S18 has flat out told her that he will never see OM again in his life. S20 wants nothing to do with her and OM. I pointed out that yes, I want a successful marriage with her but my first priority is her health and that my children have a mother. If I have to sacrifice a M with her for that, so be it. She fumed for a while and then started with the "You made me go to OM" speech. At this point she is furious because a few of the boys have made it clear that so long as OM is in the picture, they won't really have a relationship with her. Seems like she wants to the boys to be happy that she left me, believe that it was the right decision and have OM celebrate father's day with my boys. They aren't going for it.
Other news. W and OM go in front of a judge at the end of the month for their eviction. Puppy is moving in with me today. She doesn't know where she is going.
I start the new job on Monday. It can't get here quickly enough.
Dazed and confused is about right. Wheeeee is more like it
She blames you for her moving in with OM? Hmm...
I don't think that she has done any work for herself in this time. How could she? I have been the evil husband for most of the time, everything has been my fault. It has only been the past month or so that she has started to see that I am not responsible for everything going wrong in her life. It seems that is falling to OM. While part of me does chuckle at the idea of him receiving that kind of treatment, I am truly concerned that she doesn't look at her involvement in things. She continues to be the victim who is justified in hurting anyone that doesn't agree with her.
How quickly things cycle. Both ways.
Be wary here. This is one of those critical points where she is looking at the past and the present and the future but not really differentiating between them. The common theme? Her. It's still self-centered.
The good news? She misses the kids. That's a big step. But it's hard to see that she misses you. She seems to miss that life, but hasn't really matured beyond that yet. I think you know that. It comes out loud and clear in your post.
As much as you'd like her to come back, I'm not sure that is a good idea. She isn't interested in "coming back" to the relationship by the sound of it, and I think you made it clear that's important. She seems far more interested in getting out of the current situation and going back to "safety".
Having been there, I suggest you figure out what YOU want. That seems to be the constant in this situation, although not really clear at this point. I know you want her to have a relationship with the kids. You want to start your new job. But it's not so clear what you want from the relationship with her.
I was in that position and opted to have her move back in. That didn't last long. She wasn't ready nor done with the issues that drove her to leave. I was the evil husband and still am as far as she is concerned. Meh, one person's view based on untruths and her desire for it to be so.
Looking back, I'm not sure that letting her come back so quickly and easily was the best choice. It was at the time with what I knew, but in hindsight, it may have been too early in the process.
Focus on your goals. Don't waiver on them. As for her, there is no hurry. I suggest waiting until you see that she really wants to come back for the relationship and not to recapture the peace and serenity of the old life. That life is dead and gone. She killed it. The only way forward is to create a new life.
Glad she's interested in the kids. That's a good sign. Glad you're progressing the degree and starting a new job. Yay!
AJ
I want to hang out with her and watch Netflix, share a bunch of laughs. I want to wake up next to her again. I want to go house hunting with her. I want her to decorate our new house. I want to listen to her ramble on about her newest story or piece of art. I want to be a team handling the kids again. I want to lie down next to her when I go to sleep. I want to go on long walks with her again. I want to come home and be greeted by a hug. I want my best friend back. I want to stay up all night listening to cheesy songs and her telling me the stories about them.
She is an excellent story teller. I have always been able to just sit and listen to her talk. It's why I fell in love with her. She is captivating when she speaks. Lights up the whole room when she laughs. I want to hear her laugh again. I have just landed my dream job and I want her at my side. It was her dream for a long time too, I want to share it with her. I want to look toward a future filled with hope.
That's what I want from her. Not what I expect from her today, but that is what I want from her in the long run.
I can appreciate that, late. What is it you want for your goals that don't include her?
'cause lets face it. She is nobody you know right now. That person is long gone, never to return. The person that may return will be a "different" person.
Not that you can't have a relationship with that person and memories etc. But that person won't be the same person. You'll see what I mean later.
For now, act is if that person is gone. What is it you want for you? Just you. Not the kids and you. Not the W and you. Not the dog and you. Just you.
I found that was the hardest thing I had to do in all of this. Figure out what I really wanted. See, I was so wrapped up in my family life and being a father and a husband and .. that I totally forgot about me. I was ok with that. I figured that was what I was *supposed* to do. It was actually what I needed to do at the time. But it left me with anemic aspirations. I barely knew how to figure out what I wanted. Actually took me the most work.
So what do you want? A year from now? A decade from now? How do you see yourself? Just you. Even if there are others in the picture, they should be fuzzy for this question.
AJ
I feel pretty good about my short-term and long-term goals. I start the new job on Monday. I return to school next month. Focusing on helping my son get a car by the end of the year (which isn't about me, but it is part of the financial goals). Buying a house by the end of next year. In ten years I hope to still be in my field, house mostly paid for, and enjoying the vacation time. I plan on buying a house in one of the mountain towns near here. I am really looking forward to going home to that kind of environment.
I would also like to open or help an existing school teach the principles of Computer Science to low income students, within the next decade. This is something I plan on doing for free, perhaps on Saturdays (assuming there is an interest). I come from a low income family myself and I like to believe that if I had the foundation earlier, I would have started in my field much earlier in life. I'm not unhappy with my life at this point, as the decades of customer service has aided me in a lot of other aspects of my life, but I think I would have liked to start in this field earlier. I also think that as time goes on, it is going to become vital to have a few programming languages under your belt.
As far as my own growth, I want to continue to improve in keeping my temper in check, not letting hurt little boy control my words for any amount of time. He tends to surface once in a while still. Kindness will remain paramount in my life.
Dogs are definitely part of my future though ... I can't exclude them! :p
Honestly, everything else in my life has really started falling into place. I'm pretty happy with it. Since June I have bought a new car, got completely caught up on tuition so I can return to school, and got the job. I have seen my boys really step up and show me that I did a great job raising them. My kids are proud of me, virtually bursting at the seams.
Update time:
Started the new job on Monday and it is AWESOME!Monday was also S18's birthday. Monday was also the day W and OM had to be out of the apartment.
I don't know where W is now. I haven't said two sentences two her since she left on Sunday. She spent the weekend here again. Saturday was good. Took D12 and W up to a mountain town and explored it a while. W asked if we could return on Sunday with the boys and we did. Sunday wasn't quite as nice. S18 was grumpy, needed to eat as soon as we arrived. We went to a few different places and finally found a place without an hour wait. I dropped more money than I would have liked on lunch then we went and explored some more.
W was moody the whole trip. Not sure why, didn't delve into it. Ended up setting a necessary boundary, I told her that if she still plans on coming to visit me on the weekends that she needs to be able to speak to me like a human being. I can't allow myself to be attacked any longer. She got frustrated with me, but I find that I am serious now. She may not think that I am, but I can't do that anymore. When she was evicted and elected to follow OM to where ever, something inside me snapped. I wasn't angry, just finally accepted that she is making a decision. Found myself wondering why I had been putting up with so much crap for the past year. I don't honestly have an answer at this point. I'm not done with standing, but it is different now. I think the realization of everything I have accomplished since BD helped me a lot. Today I am in a stronger position than I ever have been in my life. Kids and I have a GREAT relationship. I am making significant strides in my career and I have a lot of friends.
Monday was one of the best days of my life, certainly my best first day of work ever. Company bought donuts for me and had a meet-n-greet. I met all kinds of interesting people, physicists, naval officers, chemists, and engineers. After the meet-n-greet, I had a phone conference with HR, where they laid out even more benefits I wasn't aware I was getting. Once I finished that I went and did some research on some scripting languages. The last hour of work was "happy hour", it seems this is a monthly event. We all got together for the last hour, company provided snacks and beer.
Monday was one of Ws worst days of her life. Had to be out by midnight, no one would help her move. BIL and SIL want nothing to do with OM. She is nearly out of friends. As I understand it, she had to move into a basement bedroom at one of OM's friend's houses. For the first time, she posted something about this situation on her actual fb account. Pleading for help with the move. (My sister told me about this, no longer on her fb).
The contrast is pretty stark. W told me she no longer wants therapy. So back to square one on that.
Today was another excellent day at work. Company took me out to lunch and it was awesome. Haven't spoke to wife at all today, though she did text me this morning. I haven't replied. Things continue to look up in my household and I am getting excited. My biggest concern at the moment is if a D is coming, I may have trouble keeping my step-son on my insurance.
I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I think I am reaching a greater place of strength when it comes to dealing with this situation.