Divorcebusting.com
And in the future---there will be DANCING!

Last thread loaded and locked, Ladies and Gents.

Here's the link to my last thread:

The Goddess and GUBU: Square Dancing at the Triple GGG Ranch

I trust Wonka to come up on my tail and tell me I screwed this ^^^ up yet again.

This Goat Gal is so wise, yet so clueless.
Such is the life of a Goddess!

We're just useless at doing anything practical, really.

smile

---(G)GGG
Ha ha ha - join the club GG, I still haven't worked out how to use quote yet -

And I am just learning all the Abbrev - although its quite fun making up what I think they could mean lol.

Dancing is the way to go -
Thanks for checking in, job, Wonka, Bright, Maybell, nero, Lou... Rest assured I am sticking to the DBing plan! I appreciate you following along with my crazy sitch!

Here's a "quick update" for all you GUBU fans:

I did invite him for Thanksgiving if he had no other plans, and said that I wanted to know by that morning whether or not he'd eat with me.

That morning he said "I will not be eating there." via text.
Totally expected, really. He then said "not trying to be a jerk".

Ok, so I was annoyed. Like what do I have--the plague or something? And FWIW, I am a great cook.

But as far as he was concerned, I sent a pleasant text:
"Figured you wouldn't. That's why I had backup plans."

(Which I didn't really, just eating alone and playing music alone... same old, same old. Yay me being an introvert. Thank goodness for small favors.)

He apologized again later, via text: "Don't take offense, just in a weird place today."

Ok.. whatever. I validated: "I often feel the same. Don't sweat it. Perhaps another time."

Funny how he never says "Thanks for the invite..." or anything that actually recognizes that I asked him... it's always this third-person sort of response that minimizes what I asked into some soul-less transaction.
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Thinking about all these "Nice Guys" on here who are working on rediscovering their manly assertiveness, I recalled a convo GUBU and I had early on after OW discovery last year.
He had this printed paper that was all about "Codependency". I asked him about it, and he said that he and OW were trying to figure themselves out... (!!!!!)...and "decided they were Codependent."

Well...DUH! It's the "Captain Save-A-Ho" syndrome... smile

NOW it seems he is very aware he is massively codependent, (just things he's doing and saying that point to trying to reverse this tendency) and after doing a lot of reading on the subject myself, I can see how this has played into our R over the years.

He did at one point try and "explain" to me that because he is codependent, that I must be as well, but--sorry--nope! Probably why he was so weird around me and felt so "GOOD" with OW. She was so needy and messed up from everything he said. Clearly.

As for me--I'm seen a few psychologists and one good psychiatrist over the years and the label "codependent' or 'narcissistic" never came up. I have a "healthy" attachment style, am independent but compassionate... aside from the ADD and Asperger's, pretty darn healthy. And I work really hard to make those last two not define me or what I can do.
I've taken every freaking online test and "Codependent"--it's just not me. Never was.
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GUBU was probably always somewhat uncomfortable with me because I was NOT the classic needy, messed up one who he could rescue to make himself feel needed and therefore have value. I guess was scary for that reason.

Yet, I was somehow what he wanted. He married me, didn't he? I think I was the exception among all the needy, messed up women he had before (and during) our R. (Yes, I see that now. I was the first non-train wreck, except for one old girlfriend decades ago who was lovely, and yes--he dumped her too!)
I think I was the case of the "relationship that could have been healthy if the codependent wasn't so busy sabotaging it...."


Anyway... I digress... This is just historical filler, as Dr. GoatGal is writing her dissertation.... smile
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The point here is that I think this *might* be something he's working on in therapy, since he's gone from "Mr. I'll Do ANYTHING for You" to "Mr. I Don't Give a Rat's A$$ and I'm Learning How to Say NO and Your Feelings are YOUR BUSINESS."

All well and good, except that he exploded my life, I'm living here alone, and he does have some responsibility for that. He's crossed over into minimal compassion land. In fact, he's been there for a long time now.

Yes, he'll do what I ask. But he never offers to do anything and basically just does whatever he wants without thinking of me.
So--no one wants a codependent mate, but a compassionate one... well, that might be nice for a change of pace.

I figure it's going to take some time for him to learn where the middle ground is between "Indecisive Passive-Aggressive, Covert Contractor" and "Total Jerk-o-Mo, Non-Empathetic, Self-Centered Pr*ck."
Time will tell.
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Anyhow, on Thanksgiving I just focused on what I had coming up for the weekend and made the best of it.
But yeah, it did suck being here alone on yet another holiday. Last year sucked too.

But my Gala was great and I enjoyed that very much. Today I'm home, but then have another event Sunday evening, dinner and dancing with friends. So I'm staying busy.

Even at my age I am still working on improving my dancing abilities and working in new techniques and problem solving. Same for my music. I have been working hard on that and it's paying off. I'm surprising even myself these days.

Ragtime guitar. I'm killing it! I don't know where this stuff is coming from. There must be an old blind mountain woman deep down in my soul.

But really, it's just hard work over time. And I've had plenty of time, no doubt about it.

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Back to GUBU and my laboratory notes:
It's hard to think of all the little things he's been doing that show me progress, but there have been several.

* Ongoing pleasant phone calls, for one. More laughing, more eye contact. Just more light interactions without so much drama.

* Extending our health insurance benefits
* Keeping all the finances jointly
* Not getting his own place, still working on the house... more clothes have appeared.

* He stopped asking what time I'd be leaving or getting home when I go out. He knows where I'm going, what I'm doing, and who I'm with. I have nothing to hide.

* He still gives me his whereabouts, makes a point of letting me know he's at "his" place, (highly doubt he'd have another woman there for a bunch of reasons, plus, he wouldn't be calling/texting me so much), he says when he'll be late, etc.

* His truck is a wreck. Can't imagine he'd actually take a woman on a date in it. It's filled with pistachio shells like there was a squirrel in there or something. (Did someone say: "Squirrel"??? Is it rabid???? smile ) Outside, it's dented and there's hay stuck in the cracks. It's a shambles.

*There have been times where he's pointedly avoiding seeing me when he's been here which I thought was odd, because mostly we've been pretty cool around each other---until I realized that on those days he was grubby and unshaven... and I *think* he didn't want to be around me looking like that. (???)

* He HAS been around when he's been shaven and wearing decent, clean, non-manure barn clothes.

* I haven't noticed his beard getting any longer, but at least he's not doing the grubby thing and leaving it as stubble. He knows I hate that.

* He was going to stay here Wed. night even though I was going to be here the whole time, because we had a snowstorm and he thought he could help. That was nice. But he quickly decided that it wasn't enough snow to justify staying. So he will be around, he just needs an "excuse". Still, it's forward motion.

Yet---he's still locking his truck when he's here for 10 minutes. Weird. Creepy. I always wonder what he's afraid of/hiding...or what. Then I think about something else--like...
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For the record, I looked KICK-A$$ last night!!!
I asked him to fasten my pearl necklace for me... (made him touch me) thanked him for doing that, and how "being a girl" takes a lot of work! (I can be a bit tom-boyish, so I'm playing that up.)

The Gala was a black and white theme, so it was a form-fitting vintage black sleeveless dress with a low back/neckline (tasteful), with pearls and a pearl comb in my upswept blonde hair. Ruby red lips, perfume, vintage makeup with pale skin, dark eyeliner, blood red fingernails, seamed stockings, vintage black heels... get the picture?

I KNOW he did! wink

Then I made a comment about how unfortunate it was that the "scent of the hairspray was conflicting with my perfume..."

"Oh". He says. "Hah. I guess it would."
(Bit of sarcasm I heard from him, but my point was made!)
I looked good, smelled good, and was concerned that anyone in my vicinity might not get the full benefit of my perfume.
Ahem....ahem...

Anyhow. Sometimes it's hard. I haven't had any physical affection other than hugs from friends and dancing. No bodywork since my therapist has had family issues and can't work on me. No one really touches me, holds my hand.

My animals are good, but talk about "needy"! I want someone to GIVE to ME for a change.
That does make me sad sometimes, always being alone.

But then I remember that you wonderful folks are out there in the ether, and I'm grateful to have people to talk to.

Time to feed the mutts and make myself some nice Thanksgiving leftovers, which apparently I'll be eating for the next month....

And, oh yeah. I'm pretty detached. That's good.


Your Pal,

The Goat Gal

"The Queen of the "QUICK UPDATE"!!! wink I'm working on that.
And yes, I double-posted this from my old thread because it was locked.
GGG,,

Sounds like you looked positively scandalous last night!!!! Glad you are well. Keep it up:-)
The gala sounds lovely and I am sure you looked beautiful.
Thanks, Ladies!

It takes a bit more work these days, but I do enjoy getting dolled up and going out. People talk about how important it is to get out there and be around people of both genders, not dating, but maybe testing the waters with a little flirting... this is all new for me.

I've had that "I'm MARRIED" badge of protection for so long, I feel naked without it. And I never flirted with anyone while H and I were together. Heck, I never even flirted before we met! I never had to. Things were different then.

I am making the effort to be less Tomboy-ish and more--I don't want to say "sexy" because that's not it, just more "Feminine" I guess.

I'm still a Tomboy at heart, I think that's obvious, but these days I clean up pretty well. smile

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Laboratory Notes:

1. It has been determined that there is a correlation between my pulling back and H pulling back--more.
After his decision to not have Thanksgiving with me (I'd invited him), I pulled back and just went to minimal, friendly contact.
Immediately he stopped with the "Goodnight" texts and calls for no reason.
He stopped with the friendly texts and now it's back to "all business."

I'm not sure what to think/do about this. But it just can't always be me that sticks my neck out. I have no doubt that he knows I was a bit hurt that he blew me off. He even said he "wasn't trying to be a jerk".

But even though he hurt my feelings a little and I pulled in to protect myself, is it possible that HE feels rejected when I do that? How can that be?

When I go dim/dark, he goes even darker. Like he's respecting my wishes or something. In any case, he DOES NOT REACH OUT TO ME when I pull back. AT ALL.
Some days I feel like I don't understand anything.

2. I was deleting some of our old emails and read a few before trashing them. At one point I'd said that my decision was to stay in the house and wait for the two years for the D to be finalized before I moved, or did anything. I said nothing would change my mind. (Still true.)
Makes me wonder if he's just hanging out and "waiting" for this non-negotiable period to pass, before he can prove we've been separated for two years and can get the uncontested divorce at that point.
(Maybe why he wouldn't eat with me. They have this thing about "sharing meals and doing laundry" on the books.)

3. No matter what, I will be ahead of the game if we D. He will have a house that is under a massive remodel, a property that requires constant work, a long commute, a ex-wife with a hefty alimony payment, a bunch of dogs and a house to keep up on a day-to-day basis. He doesn't have the time or the money to do this on his own. That's a fact.
He will have no leisure time whatsoever, no time for another R, and there is not a woman in her right mind who would live in this chithole.
(This is my home and my animals and even I can't stand it!!!)
He doesn't like to be alone, he needs to be needed. He is going to be one very lonely and guilt-ridden man. That is also a fact.

As for me--I will be happy living away from him and the chaos he has brought into my life. I will be relieved to be living any place where I can put my clothes in a closet, have friends over and sit in a real kitchen, be able to be organized and live my life the way I want.

I know I will have friends, my music/art/dancing, I will have a full and happy life. I will be free in so many ways. H might take my home, my life as I knew it, but he can't take away my spirit, my talents, and my choice to be happy.
I will be getting the better end of the deal, no doubt about it.

4. H is still about where he was several weeks ago in terms of our interactions.. He's sort of stuck, at least from where I'm sitting. He alternately looks sort of healthy, other days like he was on a five-day-bender.
He still wants to stay here if I'm going out, and will stay for at least a week while I'm gone over Christmas. He has been on the fence a few times about staying here while I'm actually here, but that has yet to happen.
He has not mentioned "talking about the future" again since the last time a couple weeks ago.

5. I don't know if he's still in therapy; I no longer look at any statements or bills to see if he's writing checks to his IC, or anything else. He has mentioned his "writing" and "reading" as if they're assignments, but I have not asked about this.

6. I don't think he is involved or trying to be involved with anyone else. Since he's here virtually every night after work and calls/texts me in the evenings and is still living with his employee/codependent lesbian friend, (doesn't seem motivated to get his own place), he doesn't really have the time, money, or place to carry on.

He has called me from "his" place (Guest room) and has told me to call him there, *seemingly* to let me know that that is where he really is.

7. He continues to be transparent about finances and I have all the banking passwords/credit card info, all statements still being sent to the house. He has *said* several times that he "wants me to feel secure." (Ummm.... ok?)
I would see (if I chose to look) any weird charges that would indicate hiding money, unexplained charges which might point to a new OW.
Frankly, I think since his work OW and how that all blew up on him, I don't think he'd go fishing at work again. Too many eyes on him now. MAYBE he learned his lesson, he could have lost his job.

He also just doesn't have the self-esteem to go out there and date. He is like a whipped puppy. (Not attractive AT ALL.) He has no confidence, looks like hell, and, I'm pretty sure, feels like a real heel.
I think playing around in fantasy on-line dating land and maybe chatting with (lying to) some "possibles" is about as far as he might go. Because to go further might mean REJECTION. And he can't take that. He needs a sure thing.
OW was a sure thing--and then some. (Fact. She made the first move. He wouldn't have had the balls, sorry to say. I do know that about him.)

And right now, I AM DEFINITELY NOT A 'SURE THING". smile

8. He can view my phone bill, I can't see his, but I don't care. I have nothing to hide. I don't think he's involved with anyone. When he's here working he's not on the phone...when he was with OW he was on the phone CONSTANTLY. Can't say it's not possible, but if he is, he's not spending any money on her or spending much time with her since he's always here.

9. He *seems* to want me to reach out to him, but then when I do ask him to do something, he declines. Although, if I had to find a positive it would be that the first time he declined, he said 'I will NOT be going" and some other nonsense about how sad HE was---blah blah blah.
This second time he declined as well, but said he wasn't trying to be a jerk, not to "take offense" since he was "just having a weird day."
So baby steps, right? At least he recognized that I went out on a limb and was nicer about blowing me off.
Plus, I was SO COOL about it I sent him home with a nice doggy bag for him and Co-D Landlady-Friend. He texted me later about how much she loved my cooking and could I write out my recipe for her. And I did. I think he appreciated that, and maybe it made him feel like more of an A$$hat. Can't be sure on that one.

10. He has yet to go out of his way for me without me asking, and in fact has spent a lot of time working on projects here that really are all about making HIS life easier, not mine.
He put new lights in down at the barn. (So he can see what he's doing at night.)
He's put a new door on "his" bathroom in the basement. Man needs his privacy, I guess.

I have already decided that if puts a lock on that door, and keeps the only key, I will have it removed. In the past he has been very secretive about his porn, alcohol use, and OW.
He is still behaving in a secretive way and I won't tolerate that in MY HOME.
My suspicion is that he is going to want to move into the basement (ridiculous, the more I think of it), and that having a door that locks will facilitate him being able to hide things from me that he thinks I shouldn't know about (Fill in reason HERE.)
Of course, this ^^^ is total mind reading!

BOUNDARY: There will be no locks on doors in this house as long as I'm living here.
If that's how he wants to live, he can go somewhere else!

11. The fact remains that I am living in a chitstorm of chaos, yet he busies himself with HIS personal projects (on "our" house.) bathroom, and HIS lights, and HIS electrical and HIS privacy doors.

When I asked him--while he's doing electrical stuff--to please set up the light on the master bedroom deck where I put the dogs out at night, (because I can't find them when they get lost in the yard, there are predators, I end up stepping in a pile of doggy doo in my slippers in the middle of the night), he acted put out.

I've only brought it up a handful of times over the last THREE YEARS, yanno?
But no one can say that I am a nag!
(Oh I know. He's MAD because I threw him out. If he were living here, he'd probably get that done in a heartbeat. I keep forgetting that HE is the victim here.)

Anyhow, when I asked about the bedroom deck light: Big sigh from GUBU---"That will be SO much work. But I can TRY and do it over Christmas while you're gone." Guess it's not a priority FOR HIM. This has not changed.

EVERYTHING IS STILL ALL ABOUT HIM.
EVERYTHING ABOUT ME IS ALL ABOUT HIM.
And it's everyone else who is paying for it. I'm sick of this.

He's got this issue:
He'll do twenty easy things that take little thought, not plan them well, and have shoddy results, rather than have to plan and do ONE THING that really needs to be done. For my part, I SAY NOTHING.

I *think* there is a fear of failure or something. That if he doesn't put in any effort and just "throws it together", then it's not a problem if it's half-assed. He is now diagnosed with ADHD. Duh. I've known that for years, takes one to know one, right?
But supposedly he is "coping SO well." NOT! He is NOT! He's a mess.

Doing something right requires forethought, cooperation, and planning. Three things he avoids at all cost. I am the opposite. Whatever I do, I do well. I am not a perfectionist, but I don't do things half-assed. Why bother?

BTW--all that talk about staining the decks and the expensive power washer he bought that's still sitting in the garage... well, how come he's not washing and staining the decks? Why is he putting up all these ridiculous light fixtures? He's spent HOURS on this busy work, and meanwhile, well... nothing on the long list gets done.

He seems to be distracting himself by all this "busyness".
I really can't stand this about him and I now can't even see this house getting done as we planned, even if we are happy as two peas in a pod.

And that's another reason I think I might be happier without him.
Sad to say. It's true.

It's just logistics now, unless he pulls a Magic Talking Perfumed Rainbow Unicorn out of his butt at the final hour which speaks the words of his major epiphany:

"I have made a terrible mistake. I understand all the awful things I've done to you, with OW, the porn, and all the distancing and emotional coldness over the years. You did nothing to deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

I did it because I refused to deal with my problems. I am dealing with them now and I will not stop working on myself. I realize how important it is.

You deserve the best me I can be and I want to be that man.

I want to make it up to you. I love you and want to try again to have a M.
I will do whatever it takes, and I will never give up.

You mean everything to me and I can't imagine life without you."


And this ^^^, my fellow DBers, is just about as likely as it sounds.

*sigh*


---(G)GGG
Quote:
I know I will have friends, my music/art/dancing, I will have a full and happy life. I will be free in so many ways. H might take my home, my life as I knew it, but he can't take away my spirit, my talents, and my choice to be happy.


Amen sistah!

Quote:
Makes me wonder if he's just hanging out and "waiting" for this non-negotiable period to pass, before he can prove we've been separated for two years and can get the uncontested divorce at that point.
(Maybe why he wouldn't eat with me. They have this thing about "sharing meals and doing laundry" on the books.)


Well, this might explain his thing about only staying there when you're not there.

Quote:
I now can't even see this house getting done as we planned,


Just a thought - if he doesn't finish the house, then its value will be less in a divorce, and he'll have to pay you less for your share, right? Maybe that's part of him not finishing the big stuff?

Also - I know you're busy with the animals and such, but have you started to think about employment options for yourself? Never too early to start learning new skills or brushing up old ones.
Hi kml,

Who knows what's going through his mind? I doubt he even does!

To me, if he's sleeping here while I'm here from 11-8, rather than 9-8, it's really not that big of a difference.

It's hard to imagine he'd be that calculating. As per what I said above, he usually rides on pure emotion.

If he was really putting any thought into it, he'd be doing plenty of other things to set himself up better for after a D and he's done nothing.

As for the house, it's a big concern. Right now we're upside down, and it can't be sold as is. He can't keep it up alone. I am not going to walk away from this with a mountain of debt. I'll declare bankruptcy and they can foreclose on the damn thing for all I care.

I am not going to carry such a tremendous burden for the rest of my earning years because he was a d*ck about being a husband.

We have a lot of money sunk into this house, it was our dream. Or, it was MY dream and he allowed me to operate under the delusion that it was HIS dream too...

IF it could be finished, it would sell for much more than we bought it. If unfinished, it's a massive liability.

There is no way he's going to buy out my share of the equity (very little), then finish fixing it up and pocket whatever profit is made. I put a lot of sweat equity into this project and that counts for something. I have easily done the lion's share of the work.

That's a discussion the lawyers can have. I am going to try and get every red cent I can from him, whether or not he thinks it's fair-- I do.

He's taken almost 30 years of my life and thrown it away. Sorry, but he doesn't get a "get out of jail free" card.

As for employment, I have a lot of skills, have had various jobs over the years. If and when I have to, I'll pursue that.

Right now, I can't have a "regular" job because my "job" is being here and taking care of the home/animals/property. I can't be gone more than a few hours at a time.

And neither could he! He knows this.

However, I am working on my music, putting out feelers for some writing/promotional jobs, organizing events and such. A lot of that I can do from home. Advertising, working for a magazine, things I could do part-time.


He will be paying me at least 50% of his income in future, so that will set me up fairly well, even after taxes, providing I can live frugally. That's our law, thank goodness.
Plus I get 50% of all our investments, etc.
I will lobby for not taking on the debt (he makes good money and I haven't "worked" for over ten years), I will keep my car (paid for) all the things I came with, all my personal things and at least half of the household furnishing.

I don't think he'll care.
At some point I will receive a small inheritance from my mother. I really don't want him to be able to spend a penny of that, even if we stay married. I will keep that in a separate account as a "safety net" for myself.

(Something I always wanted in the past, per Suze Orman "A woman should ALWAYS have some money of her own." Subtext= Ladies! MEN CHEAT! Anyhow, H always balked at how I'd never need that, why can't I just trust him, hasn't he always been trustworthy? Well---he was. Until he wasn't. He spend a TON on OW, hotels, driving around, trip to NYC...gifts. Ugh.)

If we D, he is not getting a penny of anything my family worked for. That's going in any agreement I make with him.

Oh, and if we DO stay married, a post-nup is non-negotiable.
Funny, after OW discovery he said he'd do one, I was a bit slow on the uptake, and he ended up filing.

So it goes.

But yes, even though I am sitting tight I am doing a lot of thinking and planning. As I said I have lots of feelers out in various places. I don't think I'll have a major problem finding something.

As I said, as of Feb. I will put some more wheels into motion. That was my plan.
I want to get through the holidays and see what transpires. Then this next year is about getting my motor running to move forward in my life without him.

Who knows? Maybe that's just what he needs to see.

Thanks for checking in, kml!


--(G)GGG
GGG,

Originally Posted By: GGG
Right now, I can't have a "regular" job because my "job" is being here and taking care of the home/animals/property. I can't be gone more than a few hours at a time.


This is what keeps you stuck and H knows this. Is this the life you want? Chained to that Charlotte Web's farm for an eternity? You do matter. Very. Very. Much.So.

No one else is looking out for #1. You are the only person who can look out for yourself. My worry is that you will wait and wait. By then, it may be too late.

I know we all have to ride out the MLC chit. At what cost??
That is the beauty of having that choice as the LBS. We can either decide to pull the plug or stay put.

If I were in your shoes, I'd pull the plug and buy myself a nice little condo with a low HOA fees (or a small cottage). Then dance up a storm at the Dance Hall and know that I will come home to a nice, decent condo/cottage.
Wonka,

I have had a similar thought many times. Having my own place--I like to live alone, truth be told. I like doing what I want, how I want, and not being around the kind of negativity that GUBU has been giving off the last several years.

I don't feel "stuck" at all though. I feel trapped by some responsibilities, the time of my chores is difficult, but I am not stuck in the sense that I can't get past this. I can get past this.

And H has always been happy to be here for me to GAL my butt off. During the week, it's hard, but on the weekends I'm often traveling, and I'm out a lot dancing, DJing, playing music and now recording.

Left to my own devices, I'd be home alone all day anyway, busy with my own stuff. So it's not all that weird.

And right now, I don't need a job. I am grateful for that.

But leaving H and my M means I will be leaving all my animals, my studio, my home, all the work I've put into this. That's a huge thing, and not something I want to do if it can be avoided.

Emotionally, I am moving on and planning ahead. But my plan is still not to move physically until the ink on the D papers is dry.

I don't feel it's in my best interests now for a bunch of reasons.
Not the least of which is--I have a lot of studio equipment/ceramic and musical, and packing, moving and storing that stuff is going to be a tremendous amount of physical labor. Not to mention emotionally draining.

I don't have to, so I am not going to. That has been and will continue to be my decision.
GUBU can think about it whatever he likes. That's his business. I am spending this time I have very wisely and it's really not wasted "in limbo".

It may be "limbo" as far as he is concerned, but I am making great strides.

Not to worry. I will not wait and wait. I will wait until I know what I want to do and I am ready to do it. Not before then.

Because as everyone says, this is my choice now.

And I do have a deadline. That gives me a full year to solidify my plans. Which I still will not act upon until the year is out/divorce is final. Because it will only be at that point when I will know exactly what my financial situation will be.

--(G)GGG
Oh.. and I forgot to mention.

If we are to D, I will be moving a few states away.

Any job I'd have would start after D and after I move.

Moving my household and studio will take a tremendous amount of work.

I am not going to sell all my furnishings, books and a lifetime's worth of possessions related to my various hobbies--things of true value--just to make a move easier.

I worked hard to earn these things and I plan on keeping them! So it's not like we have an apartment and I have a few suitcases and a box of dishes.

Shoot, if THAT were the case, I would have been long gone by now, I'm afraid.

But we're talking a lot of stuff here people. My ceramics studio ALONE will be something to tackle. It was tough moving everything here, and H was beside me every step of the way. I was ten years younger and not nearly so scrawny.

I said when I moved here that I would never move again. I've moved SO many times in my life, many times with H. I really put down roots for the first time, dug in my heels, did so much work here--the landscaping, stone walls, remodeling, fencing, gardening... it's impressive.

I would really just hate to walk away 3/4 of the way through because my H turned into a jerk. But that may happen. I have no illusions.

But it's not as simple as it sounds, as all.

In the end, I want my own home, with a yard and a garden, and a space for my studio. I want visual and spiritual harmony around me. I need to look at things that please my eyes. I want my pets with me. (Maybe not ALL of them, but several.)

I have to find a way to make that happen.

--(G)GGG
Understood. GGG, we all have choices that we make every day. Whether they are active or not is up to us. Yeah...I totally get that.
Thanks, Wonka.

You're the best.

--(G)GGG
Hi GGG(G),
Glad you are thinking about the future. I made the mistake of only thinking about saving my M post B-day before W ended up leaving. I let her blow through my retirement money, I let myself get to the point of having zero savings because I KNEW if I just did and said the right things, W wouldn't end up leaving. Well, she did and I ended up in a very hard place. Just be sure to protect YOU, you may be happy to wait but he may just not give you a choice. Up until a week before she left, W swore that she wasn't even going to see a lawyer let alone file for D. A week later it all changed. Remember what you wrote...IT'S STILL ALL ABOUT HIM, IF IT'S ABOUT ME, IT"S STILL ABOUT HIM. That is the MLC mind set. My W can no more think about anyone other then herself than walk on water. Even with her father, it's all about what she wants FROM him before he dies! Selfishness and total self-centeredness is something all MLCers seem to share. You could fall and break your leg and the thing that would go through your H's mind is how it will cause HIM more work, always keep this is your mind.

I for one think that with or without H you will have the life you choose and I happen to think it will be a fun one filled with song, dance and laughter! It may mean giving up some old dreams (we all have had to leave many of our dreams behind) but I have no doubt you will have new ones that you will make come true all on your own!
"Happiness does not depend on what you have or who you are. It solely relies on what you THINK."


Thanks Matt. Yes, sadly, it's still all about him. He was here last night, sort of proving how responsible he is, I guess.

Yet he left things undone that he should have done because he was "tired", it was "raining"... He will not be here tonight and sue me for thinking that he should have done his normal chores so I would not have to do double tonight to cover for him.

For example, he normally carries the bales of hay down to the animals' stalls because I have difficulty doing that with my back, etc.

Well, today I find there is NO hay down there, he didn't refill the water pails, feed bins.
I don't even know why he came, to tell you the truth.

What I got was excuses, and him dumping on me.

This is the same guy who would have bent over backwards to help me in the past.

I had a tough time not calling him up this morning and giving him a piece of my mind.
I didn't do it, but I had a long argument with myself over it!


So selfish? Now, it appears so.

And Matt, it's kind for you to say I will have the life I choose. I agree. I am happy now, in so many ways, and I think things will get even better, with or without H.


---(G)GGG
And hey, DBers! It's a new month, and therefore a new mention from GUBU that "We'll talk this weekend."

What a surprise! Four mentions in exactly four months, and so far---ZIP.

GUBU is back!

Last night he dumped most of his chores on me--I just let it go--and then started up again with the snarky texts last night.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I sent him a text (initiated) and said how it's going to be a "fun" night because we were "having an ice storm."
He KNOWS this means--no electricity/power, staying awake stoking the wood stove all night, no water to flush the toilet or water the animals (the well pump shuts off), slipping on the ice and falling down in the yard carrying wood and decrepit old dogs... the usual.

He counters with "Better than working. GN."

Mindreading, maybe, but I definitely took that to mean that I shouldn't "complain" about being up here in an ice storm with no power and no water because it's nothing compared to his working every day and---here's the kicker--it's MY OWN FAULT I'M HAVING A HARD TIME OF IT BECAUSE I THREW HIM OUT.
So he's the victim again.

Yes, I realize I am reading WAY too much into this, but I know him pretty well.

So I just sent back "What?"

He replies: "GN" (Shutting it down with "goodnight")

So I wait---my heart is pounding and I'm pissed off. Then I remind myself that this guy is a d*ck and my life is going to be great and if he doesn't want to be in it, that's fine. Who the heck wants a jerk like this? Someone who wants me to continue to pay for his actions and frankly seems to have no empathy for me whatsoever. He's so focused on himself.

I've had enough of that nonsense.

Then H: "Sorry just in a state. We'll talk this weekend....reading and sleeping..."

I couldn't resist a truth dart:
"Yeah, it's a friggin party under this bus, in case you were confused about that."

(Sorry DBers, but sometimes I'm just not gonna lie down and take it.)

Me: "Should I ask what you are reading?"

H: "Why does it matter"
"I don't want to keep texting... I want to read and sleep..."


Me: "You only mentioned it...like five times, is all."
"Figured it was something more than People Magazine."

----crickets from him, then--------

H: "That's cute: (snarky or no?)
"Bill Bryson...A Walk In the Woods...
"Sorry I roiled the waters. Goodnight."


(Not "GN". I hate that. Like he can't be bothered to put in the extra letters? I know he knows this irritates me. He has SAID he knows I "don't like it" when he says "K". It's rude. Sorry, it is 90% of the time.)

Me: "Hey, don't knock 'People'! It's got the scoop on Kim Kardashian's butt implants. Very entertaining!"

And that was the end of that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I was disappointed that he wasn't reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" or "Co-Dependent No More".

But after some thought I realized that the act of reading, instead of... let's say... viewing porn or chatting up the cyberladies on his dating sites (!), well, that could be a very good thing.

And it's a book I might enjoy reading. So good for him.

So if I could POSSIBLY read any more into his few words and actions smile I'd say:

He's feeling put out by my throwing him out, thus his ongoing anger at me and his blatant lack of helping me other than the bare minimum.
He even got angry when, after I asked for his help and he wouldn't give it, that I hired Farm Boy Toy to help out. But not before suggesting that the solution for my difficulty handling all the chores on my own was for me JUST TO LEAVE. (Or probably, invite him back, but he didn't say that. He just got really nasty to me that day.)

He WANTS me to suffer and cave in and admit I can't do it alone--therefore will invite him back out of necessity without requiring him to do what I need him to do for himself, for me, and for our M.

His 'What does it matter?" comment sounds like "YOU don't WANT me, so what do you care what I'm reading?"
Really, it's a question you'd ask anyone, right?
So why the pissy act? It sounds all pouty to me.

I think he feels like I am rejecting HIM because I have not pursued and cried and begged him to come save me, incompetent that I am.

In fact, he was a lot more receptive to me back when I was crying and sad and broken--AS LONG AS I didn't say anything to upset him. (Codependent MUCH? smile )

Well, those days are gone, my Peeps!

He's going to have to grow a pair if he wants to be with me. If not, then that's his loss.

If he does, I will even learn to knit so I can create a "Reinforced Jockstrap Collection: Hand Embroidered with the Days of the Week" just for his new set. smile

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, he's flip-flopping again. He's angry. He's trying to make me feel more lonely, more in need of him, I really feel this is what's happening here. He's pushing me to collapse so he can come back without asking or changing.

I do not think he will not ask to come home.
I suspect the "talk" may well be about how I really "need his help" and therefore he should come back. It's the only way he'll be able to bring that up.

I have asked for more help before and he essentially refused. So it's not that he wants to help me more, he wants me to want him to come home. Wants me to want him.

So then I guess he can decide whether or not he wants me? Uh-uh. Nope.

Ain't gonna happen!
And if that's the case, I can expect him to REALLY GET ANGRY and up the ante.
Because he'll take it as a REJECTION.

I have to be prepared for this and stand my ground firmly yet kindly. This is non-negotiable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know this ^^^^ is all mind reading, but there's got to be a certain amount of reflection about these interactions, to indicate what his frame of mind might be at the moment.

He does have a lot of resentment towards me and one of these days I'd like to ask him to make a list of all the ways I have been unkind, disrespectful, destructive, hurtful towards him. Because I don't think he can come up with anything substantial that was based on MY behavior and not on his interpretation and coloring of it with his own expectations/issues.

I have not been perfect, but I do know for a fact that I never did anything to hurt him or the M.
My failings have all been things that I could have done better, but nothing that should have made him feel like my desire was to hurt him.


Whatever. Enough about him.

My phone is blowing up with invites for the next three weeks.
Gotta go....

---(G)GGG
So long as we're mindreading....

It's also possible that his point is just that he resents working while you are "lollygagging" around on the farm. Maybe he wants to just sell it and be done with it too. And he probably wants you to return to work so that he won't have to pay as much in alimony. (My ex was really on me to return to work, I didn't understand it at that time as we didn't need the money and our kids really needed me at home, but I see now that he was planning for the divorce years before I knew. The irony is that now he's married to a woman who will never make as much as I do, haha.)
Hey GGG(G)!
Oh, how I HATE when my W texts "K"! I have noticed that she no longer does this. For the year after B-day and the first few months after she left, almost every time she would text THAT was her answer ...... "K", like she couldn't be bothered to take the time to type the "O"! I hated it and she KNEW I hated it, that's why she did it. As I have gone darker and darker, never asking for a thing from her, this has stopped. Of course it hasn't stopped her from asking for much from me but at least she isn't trying to piss me off.

What I don't get is why do they so want us to "want" them, need them? Isn't that what "drove" them away in the first place? All the "pressure" they felt from us expecting them to be good H/W's? Now they fear being rejected by the very people THEY rejected in the first place! Now if THAT isn't crazy, nothing is! Funny how they all seem to end up acting exactly the way they accused the LBS of acting in their spews? The passive/aggressive texts he's been sending you, always followed by some sort of "I'm sorry but...." excuse for being a nasty sh!t is so ridiculous! It seems that in the mind of the MLCer, the way to get someone to "want" you is treat them like crap and wait for them to come begging.

My money is on, once again, him saying now that he wants to 'talk" and, again, never having the guts to say anything. Good for you GGG! I noticed that this time you aren't at all worrying about what he wants to talk about! Much different than the first time back in Sep. when he had you spinning a bit. Now THAT is an excellent sign of just how far you have come in the past couple months!
Matt, you are right, I HAVE come a long way.

And, kml, nothing would surprise me.
He has never expressed a desire to sell this place, he does seem to really love the animals. But he's done so many other things out of character, so who knows?

As for resenting me for "lollygagging", (that's sucking on lollipops while simultaneously gagging, a skill I am known for), I'm sure he DOES resent it.

And that's totally HIS problem, isn't it?

To bad if he wants me to get a job so he'll be paying less alimony. All the more reason to drag my feet, sorry to say.

He can want all he wants, resent all he wants, spew all he wants and try to manipulate every which way, all he wants.

I am set in my plan and there isn't much he can do about it. I have a really good lawyer, by the way.
I know my rights and I am choosing to exercise them.

After all, I didn't ask for this. But you can be damn well sure I'm going to make the best of it!
------------------------------------------------------------

And speaking of "making the best of it", a GORGEOUS, 6'4'' tall Belgian "boy" with a voice that makes me melt and some great dancing chemistry between us, just invited himself to my place over next weekend because there some area events we will both be attending and he has no car at the moment.

Ummm... I had to decline (killing me!) but it's nice that he wants to hang out. But--GUBU will be here, and even if he wasn't I have stated that I will not have men in the house out of respect for him.

PS: We are only friends, he has a GF and knows I'm married. But we do get along quite well, really enjoy each other. And I love when we're out dancing and I see the look on the younger girls' faces when he opens his mouth with his liquid voice and that Belgian accent.... They actually swoon a bit!

SO--go me! We are having dinner and drinks together next week, surrounding a dance event. Normally there would be a group but he is currently car-less, so I'm the driver. Don't worry, everything is on the up and up!
But some swooning? Yeah, I could do with some of that!

wink


---(G)GGG
Well, surprise, surprise. GUBU is back to his old tricks.

He very pointedly has not communicated with me ALL DAY.
I said nothing upsetting last night except my "It's a friggin party under this bus, in case you were confused about that."

No doubt HIS feelings got hurt because I suggested he might have done something wrong in his life. Therefore, I must pay.

Yeah, I know it sounds like mind reading, but really, I've been through this enough with him. He takes things very personally, thinks I'm being critical when I suggest he might think of things a different way.

And the fact is, any time I intimated that perhaps his cheating on me, lying to me, and all the rest was actually harmful to me and hurt me deeply--I WAS THE BAD GUY FOR POINTING OUT HIS 'FLAWS".

I made him "feel bad about himself" therefore, I was to be punished in some passive-aggressive way. That was our entire marriage, I can see now.

This is exactly the same.

He may think that shutting me out hurts me, but he couldn't be more wrong. All it does is show me how incredibly immature and pathetic he is, how weak and cowardly. How he is not getting better at all and it just adds to my determination to let the divorce go through.

I can't live with someone who acts like this. I just can't. And I know it's not a case that he didn't see the one text I sent saying I'd cover for him tonight because I know he has a late interview---his phone is glued to his body, and when it was OW they texted 100+ times a day.

No. He got it, and is ignoring me. Passive aggressive chit. I'm sick of this merry-go-round.

---(G)GGG
GGG,

It looks like GUBU still gets your goat, Goat Girl. Why's that?
Because he's a ASS!!! (As in donkey, ya'll! Got one of those too. wink )

He really doesn't get my goat. Not these days.

It's just me being disappointed that he is still such a child.

I made the mistake of hoping he was starting to grow a little as a person, that he might be learning to cope better and not blame others for what's wrong inside him.

I couldn't care less if he calls/texts or not.

It's simply his pathetic-ness that is getting to me.
I am really starting to wonder what I ever saw in this guy.


---(G)GGG
Anyhow, as per my experimental guidelines and Amoeba Training Manual, I will continue to ignore bad behavior while rewarding the behavior I am seeking.

So--he can "talk to the hand!" as I will not say another word until H-E- Double Hockey Sticks freezes over.

Plus, I could really do without another night of his weird texting stuff. It's too bizarre, but it does make me laugh!


--(G)GGG

Who is feeling more and more detached every day. In fact, I think I can say that, while I can still feel emotions around GUBU's behavior, I have no connection to it other than some emotional reaction that I now am capable of getting under control without too much trouble.

That's a big milestone!
Oh--and his antics DO demonstrate one thing quite clearly:
He is NOT detached!

smile
Oh--wait. The Amoeba lives! And it CAN communicate!

It is evidence of a simple, rudimentary sort of language, but here it is:
(Apparently even Amoebas can be taught to use an electronic device,)

"G N"
GG - About this, from the other day:
Laboratory Notes:

1. It has been determined that there is a correlation between my pulling back and H pulling back--more. After his decision to not have Thanksgiving with me (I'd invited him), I pulled back and just went to minimal, friendly contact. Immediately he stopped with the "Goodnight" texts and calls for no reason. He stopped with the friendly texts and now it's back to "all business."

I'm not sure what to think/do about this. But it just can't always be me that sticks my neck out. I have no doubt that he knows I was a bit hurt that he blew me off. He even said he "wasn't trying to be a jerk". But even though he hurt my feelings a little and I pulled in to protect myself, is it possible that HE feels rejected when I do that? How can that be? When I go dim/dark, he goes even darker. Like he's respecting my wishes or something. In any case, he DOES NOT REACH OUT TO ME when I pull back. AT ALL. Some days I feel like I don't understand anything.


...My H does the EXACT same thing. I've been trying and trying to put myself in his shoes, and try to see my actions/words as he would. But, I just can't. I just don't have any idea what he's thinking these days, because he does not talk -- like yours. And this has been the pattern for our whole M, also. GG, I think you're doing great, and you'll be fine no matter what. I think I will be too. And with me, nowadays, the biggest reason I think I don't want to D is because I will have to move out of the new house that we built together, with LOTS of blood, sweat, and tears, so that some other chick can move in and live in it someday. It's hard to walk away from a M, but also hard to walk away from the life you built around you.

You have alot to think about GG, but it sounds like you have a plan. Maybe it's time to start kicking it into action. I've just jump-started mine. I'm hoping for the best for you, whatever that may be!
LiveNow,

My biggest reason is also because I don't want to move out of the house we built and leave all my animals.

But I just don't understand the dynamic we're talking about here.
I have said before that H seems to take all his cues from me and seems easily hurt, which comes off as this passive aggression.

But for Pete's sake----the man steamrolled me and he gets upset if I say I'm the least bit peeved about what position I find myself?

If I am not happy, friendly, non-confrontational, acknowledging every little thing he does and do not dare mention that he might be human, we appear to get along well if he can stand to be in my presence.

That doesn't bode well for any kind of future and I'm really getting tired of this dance.

---(G)GGG
Help me out, DBers!
Ggrass, I think this is right up your alley, but you ladies know you can make this hysterical! (Oh yeah, and some of the guys, too! smile )

"On the first day of Christmas, my True Love (???) gave to me..."

* An OW/M--guess that makes THREE!
* The results of test for paternity
* A full screening for STDS...
*
*

"On the second day of Christmas, my ??? gave to me..."

* A parenting agreement
* No Christmas card
* Half of the dishes
* Discounted Eggnog
*Cute little Love Child
My 100 Things I Like About Me

1. I am very kind, and care deeply about people.
2. I am smart in an unusual way
3. I have integrity.
4. I have made the most of my innate talents by applying hard work and perseverance
5. I have overcome my "disabilities" so they are no longer detracting from my life.
6. I am an autodidact and I continue to learn and grow.
7. I find life very interesting and I am curious about a lot of things.
8. I know who I am, what I like, what is important to me.
9. I am cute/sexy, and know how to play up my assets.
10. I learn from my mistakes.
11. When I do something, I really DO it.
12. I am open to exploring new things
13. I like to read
14. I have this strange memory for voices. It's eerie.
15. I can imitate other people singing
16. I am funny. (Granted, in a quirky way.)
17. I am good with animals, in an intuitive way. Some weird non-verbal bond.
18. I know a lot about a lot of things. Can pretty much find common ground with almost anyone.
19. I love ground black pepper. Don't know why. It goes on virtually everything. Waiters laugh at me because they have to stand there grinding away...
20. I also think everything goes better with onions of any kind.
21. I have a smashing hourglass figure for a woman of any age!
22. I have a vibrant head of wavy blonde hair and I'm learning how to style it.
23. I have a good sense of color and design, interior and product.
24. I am highly creative, highly visual and auditory.
25. Most people seem to like me pretty well, and the ones who don't are usually just crabby.
26. I can light up a room if my PMA is solidly in place.
27. I am humble. I believe in myself, but I also know that it was only luck that gave me some of the qualities I do have, and that it all can be gone in an instant.
28. I give encouragement and support to others I meet in my journey, try to inspire them.
29. I am a total kid magnet. Kids love me, probably because I'm one too.
30. I am an animal magnet, always had a way with them, wild and domesticated.
31. I am a great singer. (Really!)
32. I am a really good guitar/ukulele player
33. I am an awesome swing dancer! (Great musicality and technique.)
34. I can draw, paint, sculpt... create something from nothing
35. I learned architecture skills so we could do the remodel without paying an architect. I was the GC on the jobs, and did all the designs myself, including stairs, and more technical aspects.
36. I taught myself landscape architecture as well, and designed and built stone walls and outbuildings
37. I can swing a hammer, but not as well as I can drive a backhoe.
38. I am an excellent tree climber. I once made it to the top of a climbing wall at an event and won a prize and had never done that before.I didn't even know I could! They called me "Catwoman"!
39. I like vintage cars and identify all the classics.
40. I know some Spanish, German, a smattering of Italian, and speech French. As in "wine"
41. I used to work in the wine importing business, and have a good appreciation and palate.
42. I am a darned good cook too.
43. I can learn anything I put my mind to.
44. I can make good pottery
45. My friends love me
46. I can make strangers smile (unless they're crabby.)
47. I have traveled quite a bit, and plan to travel more
48. I have this nose that everyone says is adorable, but I hate it. People want to kiss it and rub it and make wishes on it.
49. I am a good songwriter
50. When I sing, I can make people laugh, or get all misty. Or want to get laid. smile
51. I know my plants and trees
52. I can grow a good vegetable garden
53. I can identify all kinds of wild birds and other wildlife from around the world
54. I can identify birds by their calls
55. I like to hike and am part GOAT!
56. I can drive a Three-on-the-Tree stick shift
57. I like playing with fire. And in the mud.
58. I can do a Hula Hoop
59. I am not afraid of heights, I’ll climb anything
60. I have good muscle tone, was once a novice bodybuilder
61. I used to have a blue mohawk
62. I got my first piercing before it became popular
63. I have a long and graceful neck
64. I have some real swagger!
64. I get freckled in the sun
65. My eyes are an unusual shade of denim blue—and they are my best feature.
66. I have really long and full eyelashes!
67. My dreams are vivid and intense, sometimes prophetic or psychic
68. I have a good sense of smell, except now when I’m all stuffed up.
69. I can groom a dog--even a Poodle.
70. I can castrate a cat—and a pig. Know animal husbandry.
71. I am a good horseback rider. (Western, not English) Can groom and saddle up quickly.
72. I am not afraid of very much at all
73. I love to travel alone. I went to Europe alone when I was in my 20’s, and just bummed around for several months.
74. I am a good and prolific writer
75. I am a pretty decent photographer
76. I can imitate lots of sounds
77. I can come up with novel constructs/solutions to problems.
78. I am not afraid to look silly or make a mistake
79. I am very loyal and protective of my family and friends
80. I make the effort to treat everyone with dignity and respect
81. I obey the rules, laws, and do not try to get away with things
82. I treat others as I would like to be treated
83. I will stop and help anyone in need
84. I am a good person to have around in a crisis, cool head and think on my feet.
85. I am really good at handling blood and guts! (Still can't kill a chicken, though. I can't hurt things. I think that's good though.)
86. I stand up for those who can’t stand up for themselves
87. I try to learn from everyone I meet
88. My hair grows really fast!
89. I am comfortable being “one of the guys”.
90. I can hold my liquor, and I don’t do “foo-foo” drinks. Give me that Glen 20, Ggrass!!! smile
91. I appreciate fine dining, great hotels… I have very good manners.
91. I am grateful for everything I have in my life. What landed in my lap, and what I make happen.
92. I work on being happy, and generally, I am
93. I can split and stack firewood, and can tell which kind of wood is which.
94. I can find my way around strange cities—and I never get lost in the woods. Naturally good sense of direction.
95. I don’t like shiny things. The jewelry I like is never shiny, I don’t like diamonds and precious stones. I’m more a “sterling silver and amethyst” kind of gal. Earthy, is more my style. I don’t like shiny glazes on pottery either.
96. I love nature and spending time in it
97. I like to be alone a lot, I have a very rich inner life. (Good thing, considering my current status.)
98. I am right brain dominant, so my spatial skills are more like a man’s. I can visualize and rotate in 3-D.. etc.
99. I am great at organizing things.
100. I HAVE GOOD SELF-ESTEEM!!!!! smile
LOVE the list, GG!!!

Many years ago, I read a self-help book and did an exercise in it. You were supposed to write down 100 things you would like to do in your lifetime. Somewhere in there I wrote "Play in a band".

I honestly have NO memory of writing that, or even wishing that in the past. I suspect I was digging deep to come up with 100 things to list.

I put the list away and promptly forgot about it. About 10-12 years later, after my divorce, I ran across the list. I was shocked to see that I had written that there - because in the meantime, I had learned to play the drums and had joined a band!!!!!
I KNEW there was something I liked about you... smile

I can always use a good drummer!
Yeah - 58 y.o. female punk drummers - you don't see that every day smile
No--you do NOT!
(Did you catch that I had a blue mohawk? I used to play in a punk band too!)
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
No--you do NOT!
(Did you catch that I had a blue mohawk? I used to play in a punk band too!)


I did and I was going to ask where it went, GGG.

Got old and proper?! wink
Yes, I play in a pop-punk cover band! X, Ramones, Joan Jett, Green Day, Dum Dum Girls, Dollyrots, Hole, the Hives, the Waitresses, the Queers, etc etc wink

Us punk rock girls gotta stick together!
THE QUEERS LYRICS
"Punk Rock Girls"

Leather jackets, stupid boyfriends,
poor report cards, life is just a ball
Hi- top Chucks and bubblegum and oh my gosh I'd
love to love them all
They're so cool their style is never cramped
Too much of everything and everyone is amped
Well, do't get hot and bothered
listen, I know I got problems
I also know just what this goofy world needs

Yummy yummy punk rock girls [x4]
I wish they all were punk rock girls

The smartest of the smartest and the sweetest of
the sweetest, they're the most
Me and Dr. Frank have both decided that we love
them more than toast
I wish they'd let me share their bubblegum
And let me hang with them and life would be so fun
I should be sedated cuz my heart is all inflated
I guess I gotta get me one or two

[Chorus]

I don't know where I'm going, but I know just
where I'd like to be
With my punk rock girlfriend kissing me
Let's go
And YOU are my Sister From Another Mother!

I used to play Joan Jett, Ramones... I still play Ramones songs when I DJ. smile

I was the thrash guitar player/singer--I wore thigh high boots, ultra-mini skirts, the mohawk of course, and a pink leather motorcycle jacket... Ah... those were the days.


We are cross-posting, I see.

But I still wear my Chuck Taylors... and the occasional miniskirt!
Ahh, too bad you're not on the West Coast - we're looking for a new singer!
Maybe you guys can get a gig at the Austin music fest that Ellie did last year....hmmmmmm.
Great list GG! Your H is NUTS to let you get away, with all of your various skills and talents! :-)

Regarding: But I just don't understand the dynamic we're talking about here. I have said before that H seems to take all his cues from me and seems easily hurt, which comes off as this passive aggression. But for Pete's sake----the man steamrolled me and he gets upset if I say I'm the least bit peeved about what position I find myself? If I am not happy, friendly, non-confrontational, acknowledging every little thing he does and do not dare mention that he might be human, we appear to get along well if he can stand to be in my presence.

Could NOT have said it better myself. I am right there with you GG. Same here. After 21 years, you'd think I'd have figured out how to deal with this - because it's always been this way for us - but I am obviously the one with all the problems because I'm 'insensitive and uncaring.'

I love the X-mas lyrics too! Can't wait to see what others come up with!
LiveNow,

I just composed and deleted a bunch of texts to H because he just ticked me off with exactly the scenario we described above.

He threw out the cushion to my favorite chair which has been stored in the basement until the upstairs is done. (Which will be never.)
That's something he's been wanting me to do, throw out things in the basement, presumably so he can live there someday. (Right.)

I told him three times that nothing I had down there was junk, just things in storage, and was not "throwing anything away". (Especially now since I may be having my own place. You'd think he'd realize that furniture might come in handy!)

I asked him nicely to focus on getting rid of HIS construction debris down there.
(AKA: "Trash" And plenty of nails, pipes, sheetrock scraps...and more.)

So tonight we're down there and he picks up the the note I'd left for him after I saw he'd tossed some of MY things.
A nice note, "Please remember not to throw anything out without checking. Thanks! :)"

He says to me, holding up the note:
"Just so you KNOW, the only thing I REALLY threw away was that old cushion."

I say: "That's my favorite chair (antique, had it before we were married, sentimental value!) and I wanted that original cushion (a bit raggy but solid and easily covered) to see about replacing or re-covering it.
(TO PUT IN MY NEW HOUSE WITHOUT YOU!!!! Didn't say that.)

He then says, like he's talking to a child: "You KNOW, ANYone who does upholstery can EASILY make a NEW cushion."
But this is the same guy who would also say that cost too much, was stupid, it would never get done.

Still...I bit my tongue. But I didn't need a NEW cushion. I HAD one! Until he tossed it out.

ALL I said was, "Please don't throw away any more items without checking with me, maybe focus on all this construction stuff."
Calmly, without blame, maybe my voice went up a bit, he is very good at reading people, so I'm sure he picked up that I was mildly annoyed.

And I walked out of the room, not angry, just a bit peeved.
Didn't raise my voice, didn't accuse him...
I would have never accused him in the past, either.
It was probably an honest, ADHD mistake.

But here's the kicker. He flounces out without a word, (usually tells me he's leaving) and no "good night" text as usual hours later.
This is on the tails of the last cold-shoulder treatment I got from him after implying that my life wasn't all unicorns and rainbows at the moment....why? HE could fill in the blanks on that one.

I KNOW he's Pissed at ME for showing any negative emotion which might imply he's not friggin perfect. He has always been like that. Can't take even perceived criticism.

It's actually worse than ever, this tendency.
These days I can't say a thing or even breathe heavily. I can't let my voice show any emotion. Since he has treated me so callously, even a hint of his wrongdoing and he gets all passive-aggressive on me. It's really pretty sick.

He takes it as an attack on his character or something.

OK... so I'm roiling a bit. I sent him a text:
"Hey--I know you wouldn't have thrown that cushion away if you knew it was important to me. :--)"
Just as sort of an invitation to see if he would apologize.

I get this snippy response: "Correct."
"gn"


Nice. So I said, "Well, we all mistake". "Make mistakes". "Hahah... Get it?" "Sorry... forgot."
(Deliberately vague, thinking, yeah, 'forgot' you have no conscience/sense of humor/are an a$$hat/take anything said as criticism/have to attack people in a passive-aggressive way to make them "pay" for upsetting you...).

Me: "Good Night"
(And yes, I can actually write more than "gf".What is THAT, anyway?)

So really, by now I'm doubly ticked off.
"Correct"?
Again like it's ME who has a problem with what he did after I asked him REPEATEDLY NOT TO THROW MY STUFF AWAY.

He doesn't make mistakes like the rest of us mere mortals. If he does, it's someone else's fault, or there was a REALLY GOOD REASON why he broke a promise, lied, did exactly the opposite of what he said he'd do, raised his voice... blah blah blah.

I did break down and text:
"I guess if you wanted to be kinder, you would be. Point taken."

Not DBing, but he's so ALL ABOUT HIM. I get the least bit upset about anything he does or did, show any negative emotion, and he's angry at ME.

That is really twisted.

I know I should be grateful that the worst he does is get snippy electronically or give me the cold shoulder, but this is a grown man. This tendency is him is really very maladaptive. I walk on eggshells all the time.

I am not allowed to be angry, upset, sad, fearful, sick to my stomach, or anything else like that because it makes him feel bad about HIMSELF and that feeling is MY FAULT and I must be punished. Likewise, I must be punished if I am TOO HAPPY and appear to be moving on without him as he has said he wants. If I don't make him feel wanted or needed.

It's a Lose : Lose. It's maddening.
And I think that's why he can't be around me. He can't risk having any "bad feelings". Just like I've always said. That's why he has to divorce me. Because I will be a constant reminder of his mistakes, and a potential reservoir for more bad feelings coming his way.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I am NOT mind reading this ^^^^. I know it's true. I've lived with it all these years and seeing this trait so amplified is really making it clear for me.

I'd love some of our Codependent Nice Guys/Conflict Avoidant/Passive-Aggressive/Manipulative Guys with not the best self-esteem...who are self-aware and working hard on their stuff to give me some insight into what this dynamic is all about. It might help you too, LiveNow.

Guys? What say you?
Calling You Guys! Calling DBers of the Male Variety!!! I need the "No More Mr. Nice Guys", Codependent Guys, Conflict-Avoidant Guys who are gaining awareness and bravely working through your issues to help me out.
Maybe you could read the above post and give me some insight?

I could really use some ideas of how to wrap my head around this.

And I need more lyrics to my Christmas song!

BUMP ^^^^
Calling all Codependent Men!

I mean, if someone tells you that your actions hurt them, is the appropriate response to get angry at them for "attacking your character" and "making them feel bad"?

I think not. But this is how it is.


BUMP^^^
If I get angry--he gets angry at me for being angry.

If I am hurt by something he does, he gets angry at me for expressing that hurt.

If I pull back and go dark, he gets angry and pulls back even more, as if I am doing something to reject or hurt him.

If I GAL and am having a good time, this also makes him angry.

The anger comes out in passive-aggressive ways, but it's at the core of everything, I believe. He is very resentful, probably has been for years.

I suspect he feels that I have mistreated him, that I am still mistreating him. Although cognitively, I'm pretty sure he knows that's not true.
But it FEELS that way to him.


This has come up many times in relation to the D, he doesn't want to feel what this destruction feels like. He doesn't want to feel my pain. He can't handle anything.

He issued the D partially as a gag order... he wanted me to stop expressing my emotions, stop being angry. He basically said, "it doesn't matter anymore, you can shut up now, I'm just going to D you/"

Even once after he said "What can I do to help you feel more secure?" which sounded really genuine, I answered that I needed to be able to express myself and I needed to talk some things through.

At which point he YELLED at me, "That's NOT going to HAPPEN, Goat Gal! I WANNA A DI-VOOORRRRCCE!!!!"

I think he is willing to provide any kind of support to me which does not require any emotion. So he'll pay the bills and fix my tires, and pick up the heavy stuff.

But he won't be kind, sweet, thoughtful, compassionate... even with D on the table, does he have to be so cold-hearted?
So angry AT ME?

I know, I know... it's just a weird moment. The holidays coming on. I was in the stores today and... well... it was touch-and-go there at points.

-----------------------------------------------------

The man is a total slave to his emotions, which are largely colored by a rough childhood and some other issues. They do not reflect reality.
He can't seem to see that.

This has always been present, but now it's incredibly bad.

It's as if he takes everything as an attack--my pain over his actions, my unhappiness about our situation, my sadness, my GALing, my self-sufficiency, my liking other people, if I suggest he do something differently, or ask him to cooperate or plan with me...

No---I am NOT trying to fix him. I'm just trying to understand some of this dynamic to tailor further interactions.
I'm tired of walking on eggshells just to keep the peace.

I almost want to blow things up...and get it over with.
((((GG)))) from my point of view....he just isn't. Thinking about it enough to care or bother acting nice. IMHO.
Sorry gg but we most definitely married to the same god damn man.

Even the fact he hit my child was about him. He just expects the sun to raise and set on him. I am working towards just cutting the rope entirely.

Although every woman he was ever with is still pining for him, so still he thinks he's number one. I got my hair done and changed it up a bit and was wearing hot pink again.

Gg sticks out and turn heads, in a wow fashion. Even one of my bosses was google eyed. Hair is still same colour same extra streaks just slightly different style. Kicked it up a gear for Christmas.
GGG(G),
My W just spent over an hour telling me how I and our kids felt for the last 10 years. You see we were all miserable. When we laughed together, we were miserable. When we were out having fun together, we were (all of "us") miserable. This is because SHE was miserable! He doesn't like it if you aren't miserable like him. He was unhappy so you should be as well. Not only that, it wasn't her (or his) fault he was unhappy. No, that HAD to be your fault. Every time we have had a R talk, the length of time she has been "miserable" has increased. It's now up to much more than half our M.

Your H and my W are much alike in that they NEED someone to pin their unhappiness on. My W blamed her father until he came to her and wanted to "make-up" for things that he did. So, now dad isn't to blame...who is? Must be H! My W also hates when I'm "too happy" (doesn't jibe with "everyone, not just her, were miserable). She doesn't like when I'm unhappy because she thinks (like your H blames you) I will blame her...besides, there is no way that we can expect sympathy since we have caused so much unhappiness in them! Heck, we're lucky that they give us the time of day since we are so very evil.How dare YOU the bringer of unhappiness, expect anything of them. And to point it out, well that's just too much!

GGG, he, like my W, "knows" we have no right to expect, let alone point it out if they fail, them to do anything for you. You have taken so much from him already, caused him so much pain and hurt, you need to just appreciate that he hasn't D'd you already. Him just being there to "help" you should be met with bands and flowers thrown at his feet. You just don't get this and when you show or point out something he did "wrong", well that is just too much! In response he will get angry and sullen. Complain under his breath about how "ungrateful" you are that he hasn't D you already and he works himself into a thither. It comes in passive aggressive behavior because then he can say it's you just seeing things but inside he knows he got you to be as upset and unhappy as he is and it makes him feel better.

This is how I see the way your H acts. Of course, this is just MHO but this is what I have seen from my W!!
Matt,

Thanks...that's interesting, the way you put it. I am the "bringer of unhappiness/failed at bringing happiness" so I have caused so much pain TO HIM, how dare I mention, even casually, that he is imperfect. I must be trying to cause him MORE pain, because that HURTS! Right?

And GG, you could be in the punk band with me and kml... I'll do the blue mowhawk again, and she'll be the kicka$$ drummer! You're certainly able to pull off the wardrobe! I would love to meet you in a pub some day....
Still waiting for more of my "Codependent No More/No More Mr. Nice Guys" to weigh in on my above posts. Fellas, I need your wisdom as guys who have been there.

I know it's hard to share the things that you struggle with the most, but it would really help quite a few of us gals on here who are in some type of R with NMMNGs.

Come on---I'm a DAMSEL IN DISTRESS!!! Come to my rescue smile

Hey---I'll be happy to bare my soul about my struggles with ADHD and Asperger's. It's a real sideshow...

Your Pal,

The Goat Gal
GGG,

Sadly, I am not the guy to rescue you from distress. wink

I think that H cannot handle your criticisms because he feels less than a bug at his place of work and needs to feel some importance. To compensate for this shortcoming, H inflates his own self-importance at work as the boss and as the "boss" at your ranch. A lot like Lord Farquaad from Shrek. Let's face it. He KNOWS that he's no Prince and your reactions serve as a reminder to him. That is painful for him so he shuts down that from you. He cannot handle it. He's not healthy enough to make allowances for other opinions that may be contrary to his own views which causes him to view them as a direct attack on him.
Actually, he sounds more personality disordered, and it's on overdrive at the moment. You know, volume turned up to "11"...before it may have been on a low volume, and therefore, tolerable, maybe even interesting or something.

Check out the book "Emotional Vampires", see if fits.

smile
Goat Gal,

I'm not sure you're going to be wanting my advice, because I'm not sure your actually DBing your husband right now.

Quote:
I said nothing upsetting last night except my "It's a friggin party under this bus, in case you were confused about that."

No doubt HIS feelings got hurt because I suggested he might have done something wrong in his life. Therefore, I must pay.


Nit picking on my part but you did say something upsetting and on purpose, and you're upset at his reaction?

If you're here because your husband is in an MLC then understanding that an MLC is a sickness helps get a marriage through this.

I have little to no doubt that you as a person will come through this a little scarred and hurt. But generally solid.

I worry however that your husband with his MLC will be dashed against the rocks of your unyielding strength.

Now I admit that I am only reading your most recents post, the ones in the last few months. So maybe you just hit the patch where you're done, alot of us get there, and if so my apologies for not reading far enough back.

On a side note I would have loved to see you play in your band. The bands you mentioned are some of my favorites.
Hi Goatgal, i might be your codepedant passive aggressuvr nice guy in shinibg armour. just wanted to say I'm working on a considered response to all this (definitely not raising expectations though). Its a little different because of the WA/LB reversal but I can try and put myself in his shoes.

Quick couple of questions for preBd times
- did he ever express openly any concerns?
- did he huff and puff? If so what sort of times?
- if you asked him what's wrong, what was his reaction?
First off your list of 100 was really good and really positive. Your H is clearly a fool.

I've tried to give this some thought about how i might of reacted or felt given in the circumstances but the massive caveat is that there is a LOT of mind reading and i'm not 100% on my stuff let alone someone else. I hope it helps in some way and i've gone for a strange second person narrative so sorry if some of it seems pointed.

I'm going to start with the cushion and for all of this i'm going to assume the postive that he threw the cushion away without thinking (rather than a deliberate act to annoy you).


Originally Posted By: GoatGal

So tonight we're down there and he picks up the the note I'd left for him after I saw he'd tossed some of MY things.
A nice note, "Please remember not to throw anything out without checking. Thanks! :)"

He says to me, holding up the note:
"Just so you KNOW, the only thing I REALLY threw away was that old cushion."


If he saw the note before he through the cushion then he is going to be racked with guilt that he did something stupid when he should have known better. he's angry at himself and feeling low self worth that he's let you down. he's kicking himself so he is under attack (even though its him doing the attacking) so his defences are at max. he is trying to minimise the damage by saying its not too bad its only the one thing

TRANSLATION 'please tell me its ok and it doesnt matter so i dont have to feel guilty'

If he didn’t see the note then all of ths ^^^ is probably still going on but now he has 'proof' that you are passively aggressively attacking him because you saw he had thrown the cushion away but rather than speak to him you've left a note. and its all friendly because you are deliberately trying to make him feel bad by showing how superior you are

TRANSLATION 'I've made a mistake we both know that and i feel really guilty but I can offset some of that guilt because you’re just trying to make me feel worse than i need to'

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

I say: "That's my favorite chair (antique, had it before we were married, sentimental value!) and I wanted that original cushion (a bit raggy but solid and easily covered) to see about replacing or re-covering it.
(TO PUT IN MY NEW HOUSE WITHOUT YOU!!!! Didn't say that.)

He then says, like he's talking to a child: "You KNOW, ANYone who does upholstery can EASILY make a NEW cushion."


So now you’ve validated his guilt and it can set in quite nicely, but to him it’s still recoverable because its easily fixed plus if you agree it’s easily fixed then there is no need for him to feel guilty because it’s your overreaction and it didn’t really matter in the first place.

You didn’t agree so now he has to feel the guilt and because you went quiet and your body language and tone changed he knows you’re upset.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

ALL I said was, "Please don't throw away any more items without checking with me, maybe focus on all this construction stuff."


And with this he is now properly angry about it all. Because not only is he feeling guilty for the cushion, but you failed to make him feel better, you’ve not accepted his fix, you haven’t engaged with him in a loving way and on top of all of that you’re not acknowledging everything he is doing to try and sort the basement. He may even think your criticising the way he is doing it

TRANSLATION ‘I got it wrong but its not fair that she then has a go at me when all im doing is trying to help’

And so now he can park some of his guilt because he is the victim in all of this and the cushion is no longer a problem for him

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

Hey--I know you wouldn't have thrown that cushion away if you knew it was important to me. :--)"
Just as sort of an invitation to see if he would apologize.

I get this snippy response: "Correct."
"gn"


So from his perspective he may have not so much seen an olive branch as seen it as an attempt to extract another apology (his fix was an apology in his head which you rejected) and to make him feel worse. Reopening something that he had parked and dealt with plus he can now say it’s your fault because you didn’t make it clear that it was important to you. His response is shutting it down at a point where he doesn’t have to feel guilty.


Originally Posted By: GoatGal

Nice. So I said, "Well, we all mistake". "Make mistakes". "Hahah... Get it?" "Sorry... forgot."
(Deliberately vague, thinking, yeah, 'forgot' you have no conscience/sense of humor/are an a$$hat/take anything said as criticism/have to attack people in a passive-aggressive way to make them "pay" for upsetting you...).

Me: "Good Night"
(And yes, I can actually write more than "gf".What is THAT, anyway?)


The key bit here is the "Sorry... forgot." The rest of its fine but when you said "Sorry... forgot." he heard everything you typed in the brackets

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

it makes him feel bad about HIMSELF and that feeling is MY FAULT and I must be punished


I doubt its about punishing you as such to me its much more likely that he feels bad about himself and he is fighting against anything that forces him to engage with that. He wants to put it back in its box where it can slowly poison him – there will be a lot of fear driving some of this. He also probably wants you to understand in a kind of

‘you make me feel bad and i want you to understand what I’m feeling so I’m going to make you feel like i do’

I know that sounds and would feel like punishing but that’s not his intent. He doesn’t want to hurt you he wants you to know how your hurting him. (even if the hurt your causing is only in his head)


I have no clue if thats helpful or not or even makes any sense but its my translation on living through some of this.

If you want I can try and tackle some of the other bits you’ve raised but I’m hesitant to if its not helpful
I think Jim's interpretation above is a pretty good one. Add in "See, she'll never be able to forgive me so this can never work out".

ON the other hand - it's also possible that he isn't actually getting any closer at all, that this is all wishful-thinking mind-reading, and he's just biding his time until he can divorce.

I think the first scenario is more likely, but you never can tell with these MLCers. So I'd suggest just putting away the barbed comments (no matter how justified), and engaging him in fixing up the house (because if it DOES come to divorce it helps YOU if the house is worth more - either it will sell for more or he will have to pay more to buy you out of your share).

Continue to be pleasant, leave the door open, but go about your fabulous GALing too. You can't control whether he will step up to the plate or not. He sounds like he could possibly be taking the first tentative steps out of the tunnel, but he could just as easily slip back into it. He could be finally ready to talk about the divorce, or he might have something else entirely on his mind. All I know is that it's a mistake to spend too much of your time trying to read his mind. Just be fabulous and show him what he's going to be missing.
Jack--

I thank you for your input.

Yes, I am still DBIng, big time.
I'm just seeing things more clearly and that means I'm seeing things in our marriage that I had previously either not noticed, or they weren't as pronounced, or I just got complacent.

I have been really down on H in recent weeks, I think in my efforts to detach I went a bit far in the other direction.

But I am very frustrated with him at the moment. I'm sure this is because as he does take a few tentative steps out the tunnel (and, kml, I think this has been what's happening) I get my goshed darned EXPECTATIONS up and then I get more annoyed with him.

True, his behavior has improved immensely since I started DBing. I saw some nice glimpses of the old, best H... and now he's gone.

So--yes, with that "party under the bus" comment, I was giving him a little poke. On the heels of him pointedly ignoring me and being snippy with me prior.

Not an excuse, I know, but sometimes it's just SO HARD to bite my tongue while watching him be so self-centered.

And no, I don't think he's an "Energy Vampire". I read about that. If anything, he's massively Codependent and really can't handle the strong emotional fallout from his affair and subsequent nastiness.

For the most part, I am DBIng to a T. I think the holidays and his jumping back onto the roller coaster is just irritating to me at this point.

I *knew* that he would, and I *thought* I was prepared, but looking back I can say that the real truth was, I was hoping that he was coming around.

That's an expectation---and he didn't meet it. He actually went the other way. So thanks for reminding me by pointing that out. That is the source of my frustration.

I think the other part is me building up a righteous head of steam to handle my emotions if he does push this divorce through.

I want to feel like that's a good thing. Some parts of it are good.
One issue is that I have such great times with my friends and I am enjoying my life, then I have to communicate with this person--previously my best friend and life partner, someone I trusted implicitly--who actually treats me as if I have nothing valid to say, and he just wants to get away from me.

Most of the time, he treats me like I have Ebola, while it seems others really enjoy my company. I'm the same person in both instances. *sigh*


But the fat lady hasn't sung---yet.

I'm not giving up. I have a tremendous amount to lose if there is a possibility that he will indeed wake up and smell the cappuccino.

I know in MLC that towards the end, they do go in and out and revisit a lot of the stages.

Funny, I was just thinking about that last night. That I felt as though I was talking to a little boy who was angry because I told him he made a mistake.

There is this really childish quality in him the last week or so.

kml, I see a lot of this character-shifting in him recently.

Whereas before I say steady progress towards me, now he's saying weird things, getting closer, then retreating, then reverting to a sullen 15 year old, then being Mr. Old and Grumpy, then he's like a 5 year old. (Which is interesting because he was traumatized up through age five, then a few more major traumas later on, which he never dealt with.)

I know I just need to sit tight and take my own advice:
STFU and CTHD.

Good thing I have plans for Salsa dancing tonight, and then got a surprise invite from a girlfriend for an overnight in the mountains, with a bed and breakfast and nice dinner with live music, hiking by the river... it was lovely that she thought to bring ME of all people!

(She'd won a contest and had two tickets.)

So I contrast this ^^^ sort of thing with my H and it's just not conceivable that he could really believe I'm so awful. But he's entitled to his opinion.


So I'm carrying on... really I am.
Just--annoyed. I'll working on my acceptance a bit more, think of him like patient in the mental health clinic where I used to work.

Friendly... but not too friendly.

---(G)GGG
Jim---Thank you!!!


I swear it's like you were in the room during the "cushion incident"

That's EXACTLY how it feels.
I can see how my reactions cause this in him.

OMG. So accurate.
----------------------------------------------------

OK---so WHAT DO I DO ABOUT IT?

Suggestions?

I know this is a time-sensitive thing.
I can't pussyfoot around him for the rest of our relationship. That's part of why I'm thinking I might be done.

That dynamic is so unhealthy, and ends up being turned on me. But I can do it for another year. I really can.

And let me say that the discussion about the STUPID cushion was EXTREMELY low key. I was very calm, didn't raise my voice, was really under control. Still, he reacted that way. I hardly accused him, belittled him. HE brought up the note and deflected away from his mistake. I guess his "solution" was his "apology". I never thought of it that way.

But why can't he just say "Sorry, I made a mistake. I won't throw anything else away without asking you." ????? I don't get it.
-----------------------------------------------------------

And you're right. He probably did "hear everything I wrote in the parentheses" even though I didn't say it out loud.

How can I talk to this man without feeling like every minute I'm supposed to massaging his self-esteem? It's exhausting.

Everything seems to upset him, and generally, I'm nice as pie. Really I am.
Yet if I'm too nice, that upsets him too!

Probably that old guilt again. My being nice to him after he's been such a chit to me surely pushes that "she's just trying to be superior/make me feel bad" button. Or maybe,,,"I feel like such a cad and here she is being sweet... now I feel like a worse cad. So it's HER fault again!"

Or it's the "I don't want to be kind to her because it would give her false hope." Which of course is a crock because being kind is a far, far cry from asking to get back together or even having lunch with me.
-----------------------------------------------------

Like I said, it's LOSE : LOSE. No matter how you slice it.

I can't wait to read what you come up with next.

And Jack-Three-Beans---if you're reading this, you can STILL hear me play. I'm out there today but now it's traditional jazz/blues.

However, I'm trying to start a band across the pond with Ggrass as the front woman, and kml kicking it on drums. We'll keep you posted.

We could call ourselves---what say you, ladies?

smile

--(G)GGG
Your normally my font of advice and wisdom....

For him its not about the cushion. its about everything and everytime he was made to feel not good enough and most probably most of those werent by you but my guess is there is some deeper more fundamental thing between you that dominated his guilt response and if i had to guess (sorry if im overstepping) its that the ranch hasnt/isnt the life he had planned - its been harder and less fun. And thats before you add that mountain of stuff that he should feel guilty for since BD.

in my situation we moved cross country (only 2.5hrs) and it made my W miserable, no matter how many times she said she doesnt blame me for moving (we agreed to move) i still felt guilty about it and she did/does blame me for not moving back when she said she was unhappy - so more guilt on me. That guilt tarnished so much of our interaction that it contributed to the communication problems between my W and I which in turn were a big factor in how we handled all the other problems.

what to do about it............???????????????

without knowing exactly what mental place he is in on a lot of this stuff it would be really easy to make suggestions that go right against everything you've been doing DB wise. what i will say is that if his self loathing is strong enough then no matter what you say or do he will find a way to judge himself poorly(you can test me on this if you like - i pretty much gurantee i can twist anything to put myself down and make it about me being rejected). but then this is why we cant control anyone else.

If i go back to the cushion situation as a specific example then i've been trying to think what the 'best' thing you could have done might have been. [INSERT BIG MENTAL PAUSE WITH LOTS OF COGS WHIRRING]

i think maybe the best option would have been to engage him in the how to fix it maybe something like

'I really wanted that cushion as it goes with my favourite chair. Is it gone, gone or can we fix it?'

this shows that it mattered to you but engages him in the solution as a way to make amends and alleviate any guilt. by talking about can WE fix it removes the blame from the conversation

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

But why can't he just say "Sorry, I made a mistake. I won't throw anything else away without asking you." ????? I don't get it.


because to say this he would be engaging with his guilt rather than avoiding it and he would then also be yeilding power and control to you as well. I bet if he did say the second part of that it would sound patronising or snarky

out of curiousity does your H have a habit of apologising profusely for small insignificant stuff but rallying against the idea of apologies for stuff that really needs it?
Mmmmmm that's good and all great food or thought.

While I was sleepin you guys were fixing the whole world.

The only thing I see about the statement can we fix it or is it gone. My h would have taken that as control.

What he saw as solutions was h would apologise for major events, the event would be forgotten by the end of the sentence by the hurt party with no feelings ever dealt with nor the initial behaviour dealt with.

If he was upset about minor things then it got dragged out dealt with repeated rubbed over etc. it felt very one sided minor transgression by me like messy house was a huge big deal breaker on his list. Nothing he did was important or needed dealing with.
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Calling all Codependent Men!

I mean, if someone tells you that your actions hurt them, is the appropriate response to get angry at them for "attacking your character" and "making them feel bad"?

I think not. But this is how it is.


BUMP^^^


Just reading again to see if I could offer any more insight and this really stood out for me because basically this reflects how my wife thinks I was. I'm not so sure that i was always lije that but I'm willing to believe it.

Its rubbish but its a case of how he feels about himself and how hyped his defences are. You said something negative and that taps into his fear/guilt/shame and triggers defences - its a big 'yeah but....' Like a stroppy teenager. Regardless of how helpful or loving you think you were being he heard 'attack' and so attacked back.

Again its about not wanting to feel guilty and if the other person is out of line you don't have to. Same deal as why a cheating spouse has to make it about how awful the LBS was.

Think of it in mediaeval metaphor terms, if you want to rescue the princess, you've got to climb the walls, sneak past the guards, pick the lock, and quietly wake her and comfort her because if you are seen or she is surprised and screams all hell will break loose as the entire castle goes into lockdown.
Man you guys are so describing my W!

It seems to me that it all boils down to extremely low self-esteem. When you already feel like you are "unworthy" any small comment, even one not meant at all to be unfavorable, is heard as an insult. In turn, they lash out, hoping to protect them self from the "attack" that was just made against them. After they lash out and hurt the other person, they see that hurt and feel worse about them self. So, to protect them self from that added bad feeling, they must tell them self that they were justified, that the other person WAS saying something "bad" about them. Over time this happens many, many times until they have demonized the other person so much, that they become a demon in their mind. They are expecting that other person (who isn't at all being like they think) to attack them. We all know what happens with "expectations" here on the board! Never good.

My W has told me over and again that she just "couldn't trust" me. Let me tell you, I was about the most trustworthy H you could ask for. My life was centered on her and my family. What I think happened, what she couldn't trust was who she made me into in her mind. The person who made her feel bad about herself. Not because of anything I did but because of how she felt about herself. In turn, they now must build a case that this hurtful person is really the cause of the pain they feel inside....hence the changing of the past, the only remembering the "bad" times, the blaming. The problem is the only one who can change this dynamic is the person who is the least capable. They are where they are at because of how they feel about then self and what they need to understand is that, once again, this is all happening because of THEIR problems. More of them being at "fault". Easier to see yourself as a victim of the other person "making" them feel bad. Add in someone who tells them how they are right to feel this way (OP, in my case my FIL) and they now have back up that they are a victim. A VERY bad dynamic! First they have to see that this other person (who has now made them feel good about them self) isn't telling them the real truth, then they have to understand that, once again (in their minds) they were "wrong". They have to come to terms with the fact that they have demonized and blamed someone who didn't deserve it...making them the "bad" guy, the "wrong" one all over again.

You know, thinking this all through, it's a wonder that ANY of these people EVER wake up. So much easier to stay in the tunnel. I think the reason it takes so long for them to come out is because they need to realize that any future R is just going to end up with the same dynamic. For that to happen they are going to have to see the same scenario play out all over again from the beginning. It took a long time for them to get to this point with us, it will take time before they see it again.

In the meantime the LBS's entire life is turned upside down. The kids suffer. They leave a trail of destruction behind that they will need to come to terms with. A lot considering they couldn't handle the give and take of a normal R! Kind of puts the enormity of the odds against ever getting things to be good again!
Wow - fascinating discussion. Thanks for your input on this thread, Jim0987. For me, at least, it helps me stand in my H's shoes for a moment...
Hey All,

Just taking a bit of a break again, been GALing and doing a lot of soul searching.
What else is new?

Today was a milestone. I awoke, and didn't think of H until hour later. And for the first time ever, I didn't even notice that he hadn't contacted me at all for the entire day.

Normally, this would bug me because it's a behavior of his which is usually on the tails of some "transgression" on my part (in his mind), just a weird passive-aggressive thing he does.
Today, I didn't think of it until I thought to ask him a question when he was already almost to the house this evening.
(Guess I ticked him off again, since he was going to arrive unannounced. That's his little "gotcha!" thing he does.)

When I realized that I had hardly given it a thought, it felt like such relief. I guess that's detachment.

I can see now that he is very damaged; there are many problems that I've slowly been identifying.
There is an awful lot to overcome, and I don't even know if he's still in therapy. I am finally fully awake and I actually can't believe how blind I have been for so many years.

I guess it took a crisis like this to bring everything to the forefront that has been there, on some level, all along. I can see now where he has continually undermined the connection between us and I don't think the porn *caused* it, although it certainly didn't help.

He has a serious problem with emotional closeness, being real, being vulnerable.
Let's just say---there are a lot of issues he needs to deal with.
And after that, there may still be something there for "us" but he has so much to work on himself--I think it's optimistic to think that he will get far enough in his own personal work to be able to work on the issues with me and our M.

Sad--but I'm kind of OK with it at this point. I don't blame him; I can see in some ways that he has struggled all these years. I think he did the best he could with what he had to work with. Unfortunately, what he had to work with was very fragile at best.

I am really looking at myself to see how it was that I didn't see these things...I know the Asperger's played a role, but also he was very, very skilled at hiding things from me until the chit finally hit the fan.
I also believe the best in people. I believed the best about him. I never believed he could lie to me and deceive me on the level he has. That he could hurt me like he has.

That part makes me cry a bit writing this, because I feel like I'll be better off without him. Not because I'm hurt or angry, not because I want revenge or anything else.
It's just that I'm seeing things I guess I was blind to--and I agree with him.

I don't think he can change.
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I really didn't know. I accepted a lot, since he was outwardly kind and caring. But I am pretty sure now that there was no "unconditional love" but I was merely a vehicle for him; the pretty talented wife to trot out, who made him look better, who was there for support and sex and give him someone to take care of.

But love?
I know I loved him, but honestly I'm wondering if he ever really loved ME, or just the idea of me. That he wanted someone like me, but didn't have the skills to actually be fully present. I see years of him distancing, blaming.. deflecting, manipulating, taking advantage of my trusting nature.

I think if I had been "normal" (NT-Neuro Typical) he would not have been able to pull the wool over my eyes for so long.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The last few days as I have been deep in thought and weighing things carefully, he has been very short and snippy with me, as if he KNOWS.

I have been pleasant, but preoccupied. 50% of warmth returned. I am no longer responding to his "GN" texts at night, because to me, if he can't be bothered to actually write something closer to "goodnight", I'm not going to bother to respond.

I have also been thinking a lot about things he's said and done over the years, and I can see some traits that are very disturbing. That said, he has/had some very good qualities as well, but it seems in hindsight that he was wearing a mask much of the time.

I feel now that I never really knew who he was. He wouldn't let me know.
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So I have to add that over the last few weeks I have spent time with both men and women and in those interactions I feel validated that I am a kind and lighthearted person, that in general I am liked and appreciated.

And that my husband has often been quick to "correct" me socially, (I guess because he felt my free-spirited nature embarrassed him, or I outshone him somehow). He did this in a "helpful" way, but I never really saw the problem with anything I was doing.

And I feel like that now.

Since we've been separated, people have been seeking my company and my world has opened up dramatically. When I say "people", I mean I'm getting all kinds of invites for group events, girl events, guys who want to hang out (date?), all kinds of things.

I am forced to continue to contrast this with H and his criticism and conditional acceptance of me.
I find with time, the rejection from him hurts less. I am more convinced than ever that this is a problem with him, and not with me.

I think he wanted to divorce me before I could abandon him. I think the fact that I destroyed his well-crafted mask in our marriage meant that he had to be rid of me.
That he believes that he needs someone who doesn't really know the "real" him, because he believe the "real" him is ugly.

And that breaks my heart. But I can't help him.

These days I think a lot about a life without him and it feels so freeing.

There is no one I'm interested in; I know moving and getting on with a life on my own will be very difficult... but there is a pervasive sense that he has done me a tremendous favor. Maybe very, very late in the game, but it's not too late to start over.

And I am just fine being on my own.

I can't live with that twisted dynamic anymore. I have been in plenty of therapy, and I'm pretty sure that most of the "problems" in our R have stemmed from him and his issues, and my trying to make the most of things and be accepting.

I bring my own stuff to the table, to be sure--but I never mistreated, neglected, abused, lied to, cheated on, disrespected, victimized, took advantage of, screamed at, name called, embarrassed, spoke ill of to others, nagged, criticized, turned away from, withheld affection from, was sexually cold to....him, unless you count after he started cheating on me and was emotionally abusive.

Sure, there were moments when I raised my voice, got frustrated, or said things he interpreted as criticism... I'm sure I didn't fill his love tank, that I didn't speak his LL. That perhaps I could have done more to make him feel appreciated.

But I'm not a friggin' mind reader, for all the mind reading I did above ^^^ smile
Many of my efforts to do sweet things for him were shot down with "You're not my MOTHER, stop mothering me." As if packing him a lunch was a mother thing and not a wife thing.

So I "learned" to stop doing things like this for him...no doubt he then felt neglected. Who knows?

But I would love to have him write me an extensive list of all the ways I mistreated him or fell short in our M. I really would. As a roadmap of things to work on for my next R.

However, I can write an extensive list (now) of things he has done throughout our R with might have been adaptive for him, but which were very destructive to our M and to me personally.

It hurts to write this--but I have to get it out.

I just think I'd be better off on my own. I can't do this with him anymore. I can see now how screwed up it was. It was insidious---but it was very abusive towards me. I can see that now, and therapy has helped me identify it.
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To his credit, I don't think he ever wanted to hurt me. He just couldn't avoid it. He is that damaged. And I think he always will be.

With him gone, I just feel a weight is off my shoulders, I really do.

Maybe that's why he filed for divorce. He has always known what I am only now learning.

That said, I am still DBing. I am not done yet, and he may have some significant breakthrough. Our life together wasn't all bad. But there is so much damage done, so many things that would have to change dramatically for this to work.

I am still sticking to my plan to work on myself and wait and see. But it is looking more and more like my attachment is more to my animals/home/investment/dream than it is to him.

He has been the source of so much pain for me.

I know I sound like a WAW now with all this negative talk about him. I know there are positive things about him. They're just--gone.

As much as he's moved a bit closer to me, it's precarious because any minuscule slight against him that he perceives means he gets snippy with me.

I think the lack of nasty texts, etc. is more due to my improved ability to avoid eliciting them than it is to any progress on his part.

I'm not even going to edit this.
I don't want to think about this any more today.

Love you guys---

Your Pal,

The Goat Gal
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I'm wondering if he ever really loved ME, or just the idea of me. That he wanted someone like me, but didn't have the skills to actually be fully present.

GGG, did you just read my mind? I’ve been wondering the same things about my H. Plus, I think he used me to elevate himself to a more prosperous life. I thought the idea that I would be always making more money appealed to him a lot from the beginning.

I love reading your updates. You have an amazing way to express your thoughts and feelings. Plus I can see me in a lot of this, having similar thought and feelings, but just being unable to express them as good as you. I’m glad you are progressing on the detachment part nicely. I need to learn from you.
Seriously ggg I could have written that update but seriously less eloquently than you did.

Hence if someone asked me out if I can I'm going to accept. I'm struggling to know why I would want to have him back. He owns none of his chit!

None. He's the innocent victim, a role he played with his first wife and me too.
We deserve better. Much better.
I agree that they wanted someone like us, but didn't have the skills to fully emotionally engage. I think we believe they only loved the idea of us, but it isn't quite right. They wanted to love us, but didn't know how. And they tried to love us. My xh gets a lot of brownie points for that.

He was damaged goods - just how damaged I have only gradually come to see. While it doesn't excuse some horrible behaviour it does enable me to feel more compassion than I would have believed possible. And in some ways GGG your h is a pussy cat compared with some of the MLC monsters here.

But the bottom line is that they pulled the rug out from under us. We were dong our best to make the relationship work (in most cases), and they just trashed it all and walked away. That is how it felt to us.

What it felt like to them is different, and while we never know what is in another person's head, from what I have heard from therapists and also those who have come through it, is that they felt trapped, constrained, a failure, that their life was over without them having lived it, and so on. When they disengaged they were fleeing for their life, or that is how it felt.

To them we represent the problem, not any sort of solution. Many of them blame us actively, others more passively.

We can overthink MLC, and much of the time I believe the MLCer is in a fog. They cling on to a few beliefs as if their life depended on it. Sadly for us, for many of them that belief is that we are part or all of the cause of how they feel, and so they need to get away
Eloquent is definitely the right description.

As I was reading there were a few phrases that really stood out for me because they were things I could connect with although it remains to be seen if that’s a good thing.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

....he has continually undermined the connection between us

....what he had to work with was very fragile at best.

....who made him look better

....didn't have the skills to actually be fully present

....he would not have been able to pull the wool over my eyes



And then here is what i think is the core of it all


Originally Posted By: GoatGal

..... he believes that he needs someone who doesn't really know the "real" him, because he believe the "real" him is ugly


I typed out a fairly lengthy bit of amateur psychology but deleted because it was too much mind reading and personal projection rather than concentrating on your situation. What I will say is that if you piece this lot together you get a fairly negative picture.

You get someone who doesn’t think they deserve happiness and believes that people only like him because they haven’t got to know him (made worse if you add in some social anxiety). He feels he can’t be who he is really, that he can’t relax because then they would see and when they see they will leave. If someone believes this (truly believes it) then they live in a perpetual state of guilt, anxiety and fear convinced that the person they are with is so much better than them and its only a matter of time before they realise. Its like being a character written by Edgar Allan Poe

Criticism (however lovingly giving), the other person shining in a non relationship setting, or just their other half being sad is all seen as signs that they are realising their mistake and this will soon lead to rejection. It reminds them of how awful they think they are. Crazy making in anyone’s book and as a defence can mean blaming or punishing the person who makes them feel like this. In some cases this may cause people to jump before they are pushed.

Ultimately they are sabotaging their own happiness but probably can’t see it

However as someone who relates to/is like this ^^^^^ description then this bit is what truly scares me

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

I don't think he can change.


I can’t say if there is a right fix to this other than to take care of yourself and live your life as best you can, but I hope you can remember this bit.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

.... I don't think he ever wanted to hurt me. He just couldn't avoid it. He is that damaged.
Originally Posted By: beatrice
What it felt like to them is different, and while we never know what is in another person's head, from what I have heard from therapists and also those who have come through it, is that they felt trapped, constrained, a failure, that their life was over without them having lived it, and so on. When they disengaged they were fleeing for their life, or that is how it felt.


Ding! Ding! Ding!

Yup, Bea. You've captured the essence of the MLCer mind quite well. That was me right there.
GG -
I can relate to your post. My marriage was mostly good for many of the 24 years, but as I got further and further away from it after the separation and divorce, I began to see more of the ways in which my ex really wasn't there for me. And once I dated new men, the stark differences in how they treated me, versus my ex, became more apparent.

Truth is, my ex was unhappy with life and with himself, and the spew and negativity that I got was a small percentage of what he heaps on himself in his own mind. I felt it was part of the normal give-and-take of a marriage for me to do things for him and try to help him feel better - but I can see now that I demanded too little for myself. And that, oddly enough, he might have been happier in the marriage if I had been more demanding and less accommodating.

It certainly doesn't mean my marriage was all bad - objectively I can see that it still was mostly good. But it wasn't quite the relationship that I THOUGHT we were having. And some incidents that I passed over at the time look mighty suspicious in the rear-view mirror. Once my rose-colored glasses fell off, I saw him in an entirely different light.
Wow, so much of this resonates with my M!
I too, now see that if I had demanded more and accommodated less my M would have probably been very different. I believe this dynamic is what goes on in my W's R with her father. He treats her badly, insults her when in public. Then he tells her how "sorry" he is for all the bad and how he does really care. Tells her that it was her mom's fault that he didn't have a R with her as she "poisoned" her mind against him and she eats that up.

The public insults and telling her how she's not good enough show her he knows the real her isn't good enough, the private smooshing tells her he still cares about her. By trying to build her self-esteem by assuring her that I saw her differently than she saw herself only told her that once I knew the "real" her, I would no longer love her. She used to tell me all the time when I told her how great she was that I was the only person on earth that saw her that way. In fact she even said that it was because I loved her so that "blinded" me. So, if she didn't see me as perfect, that must mean she really didn't love me. If you love someone they see you as better, which is what she thought I was doing. If she didn't only see the good in me, that must mean she didn't truly love ME.

So sad of a way to live one's life. So, sad that my W was hurt so badly for so long as a child that this is how she ended up seeing herself. The more I learn about MLC and the causes, the more I see that it is a miracle that anyone can ever come out of it once they get there!
Wow...guys. Thanks for all the feedback!

Jim, just because of the way I'm wired, I'd be curious to hear your "Pseudo-Psych" take on things just for chits and giggles....You'd probably be right.

Bright, Ggrass, Beatrice, kml, Wonka, Matt,---I always appreciate your thoughts.
I know H is in MLC, no doubt about that. I hope that time will lead to some clarity on his part.

But there are underlying issues that concern me greatly. Prior to his betrayal, I was willing to live with these because I believed--really believed---that I was in it for the long haul. That he really loved me, that he was my best friend.

But he showed a side of himself that needs more than a return to the "best" years to balance it out; to make me feel emotionally safe with him.
I've had a lot of trauma that he will need to salve.

I can do that for ME, on my own, going forward. I can heal and be whole as an individual. I'm almost there now.

But to be in a R with him, he would have to be a balm for my soul; I would need him to help me get over this and to help me feel cherished and protected again.
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In light of his actions, the things he's admitted to during our almost 30 year R, the way he became so cold and cruel, and the current fact of his complete self-absorption to the point where he snipes at me for "being SO LUCKY" to have the "time/freedom/positive outlook/talent/friends" to be SO HAPPY!!!!.... that I am enjoying my life WAY TOO MUCH after he threw me out like an old shoe... it's just incomprehensible.

I am on eggshells around him all the time. I have been for over two years. I didn't realize how much "adapting" I was doing to keep the peace.
And now---DBing means I watch every word I say, every nuance of body language, every interaction.
I am so careful not to "upset" him with a healthy dose of reality or the occasional "truth dart". Because to show him anything other than a perfect, happy, sexy, loving, kind, accepting wife is shooting myself in the foot?

Sometimes I think he just needs to get a grip. Not for me to be cruel, but with me being all nice as pie, it's just telling him that I'm here, holding steady, being kind, being thoughtful... and he's just doing--whatever he's doing.

Whether that's planning his divorce, surfing his dating sites, figuring out how he can screw that new underling... I couldn't know. Nor do I want to.
He can do ALL THAT, with the idea that I'm just here indefinitely until he DECIDES HE WANTS TO BE WITH ME.

I noticed a real warmth in him once he realized I wasn't dating or trying to date.
But did that draw him any closer to me? Nope!!!

I think it just allowed him to continue to take me for granted. Happy on his back burner as his "Plan B".

Let me be clear, I am no man's "Plan B". I am not waiting around to see if he decides he wants me or not. Either he does, and he'll do the work. Or he doesn't.
In which case--he can watch me walk away.
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I don't want to do this song and dance anymore---at least not on a regular basis.

I can DB with the best of them now, and I'm still plugging away.
I can do the occasional interaction and work my sexyback.I can speak his LL and fill his friggin' love tank.

But what am I getting? Big GOOSE EGG!!!!

But I am SO much more relaxed without his tension, his chronic movement and anxiety--which I always saw, but he denied.

Living with him was like living with an angry cactus.
He was "there", present, but only in body. And you couldn't get too close or you'd get spiked...

He was working really hard to keep some serious walls up between us, and when I dared to voice concerns that we never spent any time together, that I felt emotionally/sexually neglected--well, this was met with (what I can see in retrospect) was a manipulative mental massage session meant to put me on the defensive.

And it worked.

But it doesn't work anymore.
And I think that's another thing that concerns him. He can no longer control/manipulate me as he used to because I've learned all his tricks.
I'm no longer the clueless subject, and my eyes are open.
I know many of his "secrets" now, and I think he is ashamed.

This is sad, and I feel sorry for him, but that's no basis for a marriage.
I think not having the upper hand in that way is very disturbing to him.
He is used to having his secrecy, keeping me in the dark, and being able to pull the wool over my eyes.

He and I both know those days are gone for good.

YES. I AM MIND-READING ^^^^. Just call me "The Amazing Goat Gal"! smile
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I don't mean to focus on him--the point of this thread was to look into the future.
But when I look into my crystal ball, I don't see him being what I need him to be now.

Jim--I said "I don't think he can change"... I should clarify that.
What I mean is, I don't think he will be able to see what needs changing and then do the work to make that happen.

I think he COULD change, but he'd have to really want to. And part of that is recognizing that the problem lies within him, and that no woman/situation/thing/experience is going to "fix" what's wrong.

I think he's spent most of his life coping in the ways that felt best/easiest.
He's not one to take the hard road for the rewards it offers.

He's one for the quick fix, and tomorrow's another day. He doesn't think things through. It's just important to feel better/do it NOW.
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Anyhow. Today I have not heard from him all day. He said last night he wouldn't be here tonight and for the first time, I didn't even wonder why.

I find I don't care. I will not initiate contact, and frankly, I didn't notice until a few minutes ago that he had not checked in all day, even though we had a snowstorm...

If I am the one to have to constantly initiate contact, and extend the olive branch, which only serves to keep him convinced that we'll be "friends" after the divorce (?) I see no point in continuing.

Maybe it's time to "afflict the comfortable"???

He seems content with me offering to make myself emotionally vulnerable and seek out his company so he doesn't have to do a thing.

Well, I'll wait for the vets to chime in (if they're reading) before I move to
PHASE TWO: Setting him off balance.

This weekend I have a "platonic" date with a young male friend... I don't know what his goal is; we just like each other and are going to have dinner and go to a dance. But for me... I'm just... wondering.

No. Not dating. Not looking to hook up. Just exploring how it feels to be with a man who I am attracted to, who is interested in me as a person (knows I'm married, he has a GF, this is not a "date") to see what those feelings ARE.

I've forgotten how that feels.

How could I have been with my H all these years yet not feel any of those things?
I didn't feel attractive, interesting, funny... he often expressed his annoyance with me.

Something is not right about that.
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Typos and vague writing be damned. I am not going to edit---you guys are just going to have to figure it out! smile

Your Pal.

The Goat Gal
You know, if someone could tell me HOW to keep those feelings of love alive in my heart while my husband has cut me out of his heart for years---and who has filed for divorce saying he never loved me, and doesn't want to be with me anymore...well, I'd really like to hear how that's done.

I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.

I don't think those two things can be reconciled.
There must be a hardening of the heart, much the way our WAS have done to us. A way to make the transition.

Because if I were sitting here feeling overwhelming love and loss over my H, I don't think I would be doing very well. My GAL would just be hollow attempts to fill my time without him here, and my PMA would mostly be a put-on.

Because deep down, I'd be sad and lonely and cut to the quick over his actions. If I felt I was still "in love" with him, I would be desperate...

-------------------------------------------------

I wonder sometimes now if some readers haven't "written me off" because I am taking a hard line and moving forward as if I were going to be single.
Isn't that part of of MWD advocates?
Not just pretending, but actually DOING IT?

I think you guys think I've given up on my M and as such, I am thinking about all the negatives so I can detach further and rationalize my decision to keep moving forward as though what H has wanted--a divorce-- will eventually come to pass.

I haven't given up. I'm just being realistic. I have my head out of the clouds and my dreams are dashed. I'm being pragmatic.

I can't imagine, even with busying myself with GAL/PMA and working on my own "stuff", how I could be doing as well as I am if I were feeling such deep love and loss for my H.

Detaching has to mean separating the feelings to some degree. Not painting him in a negative light, but refraining from doing what we all do when we love someone. We overlook their negatives and focus on the positives.

Well... I have done that for almost thirty years and it hasn't done me a bit of good.
Now I want to see things clearly. If that means that you all read my words as criticism of H, so be it.

It's the unvarnished truth. And I take ownership of being clueless enough to have tolerated (what now seems to have been the intolerable) for all those years.

So. How does one still feel "in love" and yet detach to the point where the heartless actions (intentional or not) of our "beloved" doesn't make us want to die?

I think that's where my current position comes in.
I do feel "loving" towards H. But I no longer am "in love" with him.
To be "in love" means I see the best in him, and feel that feeling of being special and cherished.

I'm not so stupid that I will continue to direct my affections at someone who doesn't reciprocate. That's a recipe for pain and a loss of self-respect.

I do feel loving towards H. I don't wish him ill. I feel sorry for him. I can see that he is broken and suffering.

But hell...so am I! And I am suffering BECAUSE OF HIM.

There is no way around that. Where I am at right now is due to his choices, no matter how you look at it.

Each day I find I care less and less. Each day I feel stronger and better about me and my future.
Sure, I still have "hope". I could hit the lottery. (In some ways, that would even be better!)

I believe love is a choice.

He has chosen not to love me, or he never could

And I have chosen not to love someone who has hurt me so deeply and yet who continues to act as though he is somehow the victim.

I could chose to love him again, but he would have to be worthy.

Barring that, I can act lovingly towards him, which is what I have been doing.
But I can act lovingly to the homeless woman on the corner too.

For me, that's what he will get unless he lets me know he wants something else.

The day I start chasing down friends/lovers/family to "LOVE AND RESPECT ME" is the day I go up the mountain and live the rest of my life as a hermit.


---(G)GGG

NOT EDITED
Knowing "what" to do, and "how" to go about it are two very different things.

Not to mention, even knowing "how" doesn't necessarily make it any easier!

--(G)GGG confused

Who is working on Christmas plans solo--because for the last several years H was "Super Scrooge" and there were no gifts, no special times, "New Year's Eve was for amateurs", it's just "another birthday", "just another anniversary"...everything became---nothing. Not worth noting, not worth celebrating.
I went from someone with loads of Christmas Spirit to someone who no longer bothered to give gifts, send cards...
Funny thing too. The last few years, the only cards I got were from my dentist, Eye doctor, the Real Estate Agent we'd bought our house from... the veterinarian who financed a wing from our payments over the years.

And THIS YEAR---I've gotten cards, gifts, invites for parties, meals...
Hmmmm.... Not because they feel sorry for me (or are trying to get in my pants)... just because the efforts I've made at connecting with people this last year have paid off in that people feel I care for them, and so they feel connected to me.

Funny how that works...

So I have plans for the holidays. I am giving gifts, and surprising people, and going out of my way to make the people who made my life rich this year feel special and cared for.
I'd forgotten how much I missed that.

Who knew?
Quote:

I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.


I couldn't. When I detached it involved the good and the bad. I thinks that's the only way it can be done.

Can you dettatch fully? Not allow what he has put you through come out as anger toward him in the form of barbs or comments?
You know, GG, I got to this point. I loved my h so much that I wanted him to find his way. For him.

I knew that the ultimate act of love was to let him go. As I said, I loved him, but, I also learned to love me enough to want to follow my journey, too.

I knew that the way for me to let him go I had to get to a place of forgiveness. To me, forgiveness is a way to honor your relationship. It is an acceptance of what is and the letting go of expecting something different.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act.

Once I got there, and it was a tough road, I was able to detach. For me detaching meant that I would not allow his actions or words to affect mine. It meant that I could still have compassion for him and his crisis and continue to live my life.

Ultimately, I wanted what was best for him even if that didnt include me.
Sorry--I was editing and got booted off--so this post belongs about two posts up ^^^^. smile

Thanks, Jack Three Beans.

I really value your input as someone who has been on this board a long time and who has devoted your energies towards moderating and--the occasional post.
I feel fortunate to have you weigh in on mine.

Yes, I know I can refrain from the barbed comments.
I do--90% of the time. At this point, I am really capable of doing it almost 100% if H doesn't serve up something completely unexpected and whack-o.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I wonder if sometimes though I "should" be continuing to serve up the "nice as pie" routine when he takes a dig at me.
The things I have said to him since I started DBing are pretty darn mild, considering. Only saying that I'm not as happy as he thinks I am.
For a long time, I refrained from even mentioning that my situation wasn't just rosy. But it feels far from the truth.

So to be "authentic", it seems I must communicate this truth to him on some level. I am not thrilled with the way things are. I am grieving. I am hurt very, very deeply. I am concerned that I won't make the right decision where he is concerned, or the right decision for us.

I feel as though he is incapable of being rational and making good decisions, that's he's gotten a long term room in CrazyTown, and that leaves it to ME to be the one to figure things out.

(No, not solve his problems or fix him, but to do some damage control on our R and our shared reality; as well as making sure the future is better than today.)

But you've been around a long time on this board, Jack.
Do you believe there is a time and place for a bit of push-back?

The proverbial "Truth Dart"?
--------------------------------------------------------------

I understand the concept of being accepting and not criticizing or causing them to feel uncomfortable or pressured around us.

I've done that, ad nauseum.
Is there not a place for giving him a slight push off-balance to cause him to take stock and steady himself?

I mean, without criticizing or blaming, without pressure. Just a little reality check?

If I keep on here, keeping a candle lit in the window and a pie in the oven, just in case he ever wants to come in, what is that telling him?

As much as he seems to like to know that I'm here, that I care for him, and that I'm not moving across the country or dating other men, I don't feel like it's helping him feel closer to me.

It just feels like he is continuing to take me for granted. That I'm safe in my little box until he can trot out the parts of me he actually likes somewhere down the road.

There is a part of me that feels unless he starts to feel uncomfortable with how things are going, he's never going to change.

This all goes back to the vets months ago, who thought my approach was too friendly. Labug, I think was one, Cadet another.

I countered with my statement that whenever I pulled back, he pulled back even further, and even got a bit nasty. When I warmed up, he warmed up.
---------------------------------------------------------------

It was all that "Pursuit and Distance" thing. I didn't pursue, went "dim/dark" and he got mad. I didn't like him being mad, so I initiated more and we *seemed* closer. At least, he was nicer, initiated more, and seemed happier.

But that has been an illusion.
Overall, there has been no REAL movement towards me on his part since July 2014 or so. At least not that I can determine.

Sure, he's communicated more and been more friendly, but that's it. He has avoided any prolonged contact with me, turned me down three times for casual time together... nothing has really changed.

He has me just where he wants me. Friendly, loving, AT A DISTANCE and ONLY IN THEORY.

He knows my position on dating, on not wanting a D but not standing in his way. I've said it all, and as the vets on here say, there's no reason to keep repeating myself.

I feel he wants to know that I want him back--just because he WANTS TO KNOW AND FEEL THAT.
But NOT because he actually WANTS to be with me.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Jack... I would appreciate any input you could give me. Sometimes I am at a loss.
I looked at the DB coaches, I could possibly swing it with a disposable credit card (H controls the money)... but there came a point where I wondered if I even wanted to try an "get" H to want to be married to me because he has so many problems... him wanting to stay married to me isn't going to fix what's wrong.

He has to do that... He has to WANT to WANT to be with ME.

It seems so hopeless.

I do feel that I am losing so much.

And yes, I have hardened my heart towards him.
I have had to. It's survival.
The alternative is to awaken every day feeling like I'm going to be sick, thinking about going to bed alone every night. Wanting to talk to him about this little thing and that and having to stop myself from "initiating" or pressuring him.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I still try to be loving, compassionate...but feeling that I really "love" him is hard because he is acting so unloving towards me.

And I can see that he has many good qualities. Or--he did.
I really don't see any of those qualities in evidence now.
I know he's in crisis and all that, but it is who he is NOW.

Our marriage wasn't all bad and he didn't mistreat me, at least, not overtly.
When he started his MLC or whatever you want to call it, and when he started his affair, he became very cruel verbally, withheld any affection, and had really stopped spending any time with me or even looking at me or making extended eye contact/having real conversations probably a year prior to that.

The last time he took me out or made plans to do anything with me was February 2012. Prior to that, he treated me like a roommate, although he paid the bills and took out the trash.

That's the reality.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I became complacent.
I made my own happiness while I made excuses for him for being "overworked", "stressed", "depressed".
And he was angry at me for doing exactly that.
I gave him the space he seemed to want and let him know I was there for him, and I got busy GALing and finding things to do that I could do alone.

I think I said on here that I recently met another long-time fellow swing dancer who was surprised when I said I was married, because I was "always alone."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly, I was always alone long before this MLC, or his affair.

I've been living my life as a single person for five years or more, unless you count the hour once a week in the middle of the day on a Saturday/Sunday (his choice), in between his doing the "important stuff" when I was expected to drop everything and put out with no connection and no foreplay.
Sorry for the TMI, but it's time for truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I married this man for who I believed he was.
Clearly he managed to support me and protect me and make me feel cherished and loved for many years, even with the emotional distance between us.
My family and friends loved him, though less in recent years.
Newer friends have expressed-not a dislike--but a wondering about him. They weren't comfortable around him, nor he them.

(I am a very independent person and have no need of being joined at the hip, so time on my own was never a problem, until it became the majority of the time we had together.)

I can still see the POTENTIAL for that in him. But it is undermined by all this other stuff, stuff which I can see now, (with therapy) was very unhealthy for me.

So....sorry for the ramble. Just thinking out loud.

No one is all good or all bad.
It's just that I'm growing and learning, and maybe he is too, but it may end up being "too little, too late" as they say.

He is not a bad person, just a very damaged one. He has suffered things which I can only imagine. But that doesn't change the reality that he may not be able to really be the kind of partner I need now.

His MLC and infidelity was a catalyst. If not for that, we'd probably still be trucking along.

But it DID happen and it changed everything.
It destroyed everything we had.
I'm only looking for a clue that there is something there of a solid foundation to build upon.

Thanks....


---(G)GGG
urworthy,

It's interesting that you talk about forgiveness.

I have already felt that I have forgiven him.

This is going to sound strange, so let me see if I can explain.
I have forgiven him in the sense that I understand he is just a flawed human being just like the rest of us, and that he never did anything with the intention of hurting me.

I have told him exactly that ^^^. I said that I had already forgiven him, and that I understood that I was only collateral damage. That he was trying to feel better; more "alive", and that hurting me was something he probably wanted to avoid, but it was outweighed by the urgency of his own situation.
That under normal circumstances, he would have never done that to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Cognitively, I understand all of that. I can let it go, and forgive, and move forward.

However, that is moving forward WITHOUT HIM.

If we were to try and reconcile, then he would have to do the work necessary to help me heal as HALF OF THIS MARRIAGE.
I could NOT let it all go as I would if we were divorced, because he would be half of the equation and his actions (past/present/future) would be very relevant in the health of whatever R we had.

Although I didn't specify to him, it is my hope that he didn't take my "I have already forgiven you" comment to mean the same as "I'll sweep all my pain and your indiscretions under the rug and we can pretend it never happened."

Because that is very far from the truth.

I don't want to dwell on the negatives, but neither will I allow them to exist on the basement level, where the foundation is known to take on water.

I hold no animosity any longer... I'm feeling past that. (At least today, check back in a few months.)

But I don't think he meant to hurt me.

He knew that he WOULD, eventually, and that pretty much amounts to the same thing.
But it wasn't his goal.

That is a whole different animal, and one I can say that I'm happy not to have encountered to date.

Still, the fact remains that whatever the "reason" or "intent", he has hurt me very deeply, and will continue to do so if things don't change radically on his end.


Meh.

--(G)GGG

All that said---I am going away from Dec 20 until after Jan 1.

I am thinking of telling H that I want to have no contact during that time.

Why?

Well, first of all because he has stated that I can just "move out" and he will happily continue without me.

FACT: He cannot work his job with the hours and commute and take care of these animals and the house. Last year he had to hire a pet-sitter and still the animals were neglected and he was overwhelmed. And he only worked half days the entire time.

This time around he has decided to work half days to accommodate my visiting with my mother, etc. The reality is HE CAN'T SUSTAIN THIS PLACE WITHOUT ME. At least without neglecting the basic needs of the animals in our care.

Part of me is thinking to give him a taste of what he wants--kind of like last year--but we were in touch an awful lot that time, and I didn't even know he'd filed for divorce the day I left. (Psychic me. I felt sick and had to leave immediately.)

I'd like him to be here without me through Christmas, feel the pangs of being alone; something he has NOT had to experience while living with co-dependent co-worker landlady. He hasn't been alone YET. And I know he hates it.

I want to not speak to him unless it's an emergency. I just want a break.

I'll be visiting in the areas where I would move to if we D. I just want him out of the equation while I'm thinking.

But yeah---a big part of that is lighting a fire under his butt--let him see what life without me would REALLY be like.

Then again, inconvenience isn't a really a selling point for him wanting to be in a R with me.

And--there's that pesky ego again!

I am NOT waiting around for him to decide I'm a good fallback option.

What say you?

I could use a few weeks of being TOTALLY DARK. He's a touch-and-go type.
Maybe it's time to cut that off?


---(G)GGG
PS: Not a peep from him all day. That might be a first since he goes to sleep about now. Nice to note that I don't have any feeling about it one way or the other.
GGG, a lot of what you’ve just written resonates with me big time.
This:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
You know, if someone could tell me HOW to keep those feelings of love alive in my heart while my husband has cut me out of his heart for years---and who has filed for divorce saying he never loved me, and doesn't want to be with me anymore...well, I'd really like to hear how that's done.

I just can't see being detached to the point where you're not a sensitive, hurting, emotional pile of jelly, yet still having those feelings of ATTACHMENT present.

I don't think those two things can be reconciled.
There must be a hardening of the heart, much the way our WAS have done to us. A way to make the transition.


And this:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I think you guys think I've given up on my M and as such, I am thinking about all the negatives so I can detach further and rationalize my decision to keep moving forward as though what H has wanted--a divorce-- will eventually come to pass.

And this:
Originally Posted By: GoatGal
I do feel "loving" towards H. But I no longer am "in love" with him.
To be "in love" means I see the best in him, and feel that feeling of being special and cherished.


I think this is exactly what I’ve been struggling with. If I detach enough, I will no longer be able to see anything good in my H. This is it! I’ve been trying to find all kind of negatives about H hoping that it will help me to finally move on. I do have the feelings of warmth and understanding and forgiveness, and even wishing H the best, feeling sorry for him... But… at the same time thinking that he hurt me so much, and if I ever to recover from this, I have to completely remove H from my heart.

GGG, again, thanks for sharing. It helps me to process my feelings without thinking that I’m crazy or different from everybody else here who seem to be doing better in terms of understanding the detachment concept.
Hey G. I told you how I got to a place where I could lovingly detach. For me, it had to include forgiveness. It doesnt sound strange at all that you forgive him because he is a flawed human being like we all are and that he didnt intend to hurt you.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

However, that is moving forward WITHOUT HIM.

If we were to try and reconcile, then he would have to do the work necessary to help me heal as HALF OF THIS MARRIAGE.
I could NOT let it all go as I would if we were divorced, because he would be half of the equation and his actions (past/present/future) would be very relevant in the health of whatever R we had.


My moving forward and forgiving him was not me moving forward without him, but, rather moving forward for me. It was saying, I heard what you said and I am going to honor your feelings. It didnt mean I couldnt still have hope. I was putting my marriage safely away and continuing on my journey. Your h would absolutely have to catch up to you and those issues would have to be dealt with.

I was able to still have love and compassion for my h because I knew he was suffering. He still had to own his actions, though.
Forgiveness allowed me to have that. Acceptance allowed me to love from a distance while still living my life.
Just be you, because you're awesome
GG - I think all your emotions are valid. In a relationship we experience so much and over the length of a marriage....In the aftermath of all this MLC it is easy to lose sight of the scope of those emotions. I guess we get bogged down in analysis and history.

I think you can love and not be in love. I think when you give yourself to feel all of it then that is a huge step toward forgiveness and acceptance. There are people who D or R and just never get all the way to that place. The place where the whole enchilada of life is just unconditionally accepted. The good, the bad and it is only then that we can truly forgive.

I hope to get there someday. I think you are closer than you realize. You just are a bit scared of the whole enchilada. It is scary but go for it GG. Be your awesome self and go for it!
GGG, to feed your curiosity.

Pseudopsychology, Quackery and other adventures in the land of futile mind reading

WARNING: this is entirely my take on things based on what I’ve read here, what I’ve read elsewhere and a whole bunch of mind reading and transference from what’s gone on in my head at various points. It’s a country mile outside the scope and advice of DB’g and so if you’re looking for useful I’d skip to whatever the next post is

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

.....he believes that he needs someone who doesn’t really know the ‘real’ him, because he believes the real him is ugly


Imagine for a second (and only for a second) that you truly believe that no one likes you, that no one could like you and that everyone who seems to like you is only doing so either through some sense of obligation, because it’s some kind of charity, because they are using you or because you have managed to trick them somehow.

Your goal then becomes to try and hide the real you to enjoy these fleeting moments while they last because they aren’t going to last. Sooner or later the other person is going to crack, they will abandon you, betray you and tell you what they really think. You already know what they really think and that’s that they don’t like you but they aren’t telling you and so they obviously don’t like you because if they did why would they be so dishonest about how they really feel - You don’t lie to people you like and their current niceness is just going to make the inevitable betrayal worse.

So now you’re looking for the chinks, the little lies, the indicators that tell you what’s really going, because if they are lying about liking you then what else are they lying about? Are they stringing you a long to take advantage of you in other ways. So you start checking, controlling, withholding, defending so that so that you can stop it happening, protect yourself from it and be ready for it. But that doesn’t seem to work you still feel vulnerable and scared. Now you have so much invested in this and what if it’s not right, because if they really loved you they wouldn’t ever be [INSERT EMOTION], They wouldn’t say [INSERT COMMENT] and they would always be happy to [INSERT ACTION] and they wouldn’t have [INSERT GRIEVANCE]. So they can’t love you, who would and now you have proof.

It’s a painful place to live. And certainly not somewhere to dwell.

As this all builds up they try and compensate in other ways to try and improve their ‘offer’ because on their own they know they aren’t enough so there has to be other things. This can including making sure they have a partner that makes them look good (Smarter, funnier, more attractive, richer) but they can only manage this because they’ve managed to trick them. And so there is something to feel really guilty for now as well.

They are constantly making comparisons about however people are smarter, richer, better looking, funnier and they feel vulnerable that their partner will see it as well and ditch them for the better choices that are there because after all everyone is a better choice.

By now there is a constant nagging sense of inadequacy, insecurity, vulnerability and guilt and so they try harder to compensate or distract from this (maybe dive into an addiction to numb the pain, or throw themselves into work, or a new hobby)

Over time though the fear and the anxiety doesn’t go away and they start to feel resentment for everything they are having to do, all the hoops they have to jump through. After a while two thoughts start occurring in their head
‘Why do you not love me after all I’ve done?’
‘I do so much to make you happy so why aren’t you making me happy’

They never realising that was never the problem - its always been
‘I don’t love me, so how can you’

he holds on so tightly to this ^^^^ that he doesnt even realise - its ingrained in him and affects everything he does.

One day it all comes to a head and one or the other has had enough and walks away. (Sometimes because they see new and shiny and think that will make them happy)

NOTE: I’m going to assume from here on that it’s the one with the esteem issues that walks away.

So they have walked away and they feel enormous guilt for that and don’t dare face that, after all they have been wracked with guilt for so long about so many things (in their head they are a failure after all) that they don’t want to face it anymore

If they are chased it just reminds them how much hurt they have caused and they can’t bare the guilt
If they aren’t chased then its proof they were never really loved in the first place
If they are told they are forgiven they don’t believe it as there is no way someone could forgive them for all they’ve done and they have proved how awful they are
If the LBS improves their life (DB) then its proof that that the LBS is better off without them.

At some point down the line they will start to realise that they still aren’t happy and start to think one of the following

1) LA LA LA LA LA I’m not listening, i don’t want to think about this LA LA LA LA
2) This is all the LBS’ fault – I hate them and never want to see them again
3) This is all the LBS’ fault – I want to make them as miserable as me so they know how I feel
4) This is my fault but this is better for everyone
5) I’ve made a mistake but it is all LBS’ fault and they need to make it up to me
6) This is my fault and I’ve made a terrible mistake but I’ve done so much damage there is no way I could undo this. I’m not worth it and/or i don’t know how and/or its too hard.
7) This is my fault and I’ve made a terrible mistake and i will do whatever it takes to undo that mistake

Over time they may change their mind and switch from one to other but as has been said so many times it takes two to make a relationship work and only one to destroy it, and for some if they ever reach 7 they might find it’s too late.

In GGGs case I would guess that her H is somewhere in 4, 5 or 6 however he is the only one that could know this and 6 is the only one where there is something GGG could realistically do and even then there is a good chance it won’t make it past his ‘low self worth translator’




I probably could take this further but instead I’m going to finish up with a bit of an analogy in a different context

Each week I take my D3 swimming. She loves it, loves jumping in the water, loves going underwater, loves wearing her goggles and the pink hair band she has to wear to stop her getting ear infections. She can swim a couple of metres and launch herself about 4m into the pool from the side. She is very very happy in the pool and on holiday all she wanted to do every day was spend hours in the pool. She really loves swimming.

Every week we go to her swimming lesson and her swim teacher will give her a woggle (foam noodle) which she holds onto so she can practice kicking and ‘lion arms’. Every week my D3 has a bit of a meltdown because she is terrified I’m going to let go. She holds on to me, holds on to the side or holds on to anything she can grab. Everytime she does this she ends up floundering underwater and gets upset and clings on to me. If she just let go she could swim the few metres and a whole load of freedom would open up for her as she learns to go further each time.

She can swim, she just lacks the confidence to let go.


GGal,

Do you believe your husband is having an MLC? That's really important because that answer shapes and affects everything else.

If no, then wrong forum and not saying that to be mean but because this is a waste of your time.

With MLC everything is longer. With MLC your goal is to outlast their crisis, and your hope is that their crisis doesn't last long.

The truth you want to tell him, only works if he is capable of listening and considering it. To that end it won't work until he is at a stage of MLC where he is realizing that the problems in his life have the common denominator of "him". Any other time? And your truth is being used to get what you want from them...pressure in their mind.

The thing most of us tend to forget is that what worked for us might not work for others...specifics not generalities...the generalities exist simply because more often than not its the way to go.

By specifics I mean, "You're being too nice." or the opposite, " You're being too mean." Ultimately if your are getting good results form one or the other use that strategy no matter what anyone here says.

Last thing,

I want you to know that we are going to support you as long as you're trying to be a better person, because that better person is going to have a better relationship next time. Whether next time is with someone new or your spouse, and if it is with your spouse it better be new cause the old marriage was broken enough to be put down.
Jack,

I enjoy reading your responses to people here.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

With MLC everything is longer. With MLC your goal is to outlast their crisis, and your hope is that their crisis doesn't last long.


^^ That is a good advice. It should come with a caveat that "there is no guarantee" that the MLCer will come out of the crisis, if ever.

This is a tricky tightrope for the LBS with a MLCer spouse. How long do they "wait out" the MLC? At their own expense? Frittering away their life just waiting out the MLC if those MLCers are truly stuck with Bea's and Job's XHs come to mind when there are other healthy people out there who ARE INTERESTED in you.

At what point does one say, "it ain't working for me any more. I have too much self-worth to fritter away any more time."

I sense that it is where GoatGal is at the present moment. What I am seeing happen more and more is that GoatGal has truly taken off her rose-colored glasses and seeing things much more clearer that will inform her decisions going forward.

Why do I say those things? It is because I know this family friend of ours who I've known for most of my life and she was one of my late father's closest friends. She was married to a man who was alcoholic. She did/tried everything to outlast it with the hope that he would overcome this dreadful disease.

Then one day, she just had enough. So they got a divorce (they have two adult daughters). Not too long after her divorce, she met a wonderful man and married him years later. They're now very happy together and she's experiencing new adventures with him by taking sailing trips around Florida and the Caribbean.

Contrast that new lifestyle with the "stuck in a place" alongside her alcoholic former husband who she loved dearly. At some point, we all have to say, "Eh, this isn't working for me any longer. I am outta here!"

I guess the issue is that there's no real "yardstick" on how long a spouses stands with their MLCer.

1st thank you.

I like the advice you're giving out and thank you for the time and energy it takes you to do so.

Quote:

At what point does one say, "it ain't working for me any more. I have too much self-worth to fritter away any more time."


I see where you are going here Wonka.

And I have problems seeing/reading about people who I think should move on. But that's not my place to do that to someone, its not my job to remove that person's hope. For me? My hope was near gone when my wife came around. I outlasted it barely...and actually I wanted her to fail at the time cause I had plans that didn't involve her.

If/when an LBS comes to that decision on their own after giving it their all? I'll cheer them on. But far be it from me to tell them when that happens.

The alcoholism and MLC are great examples of a disease turning what hopefully was a good decent person before hand into a monster. The idea is that good decent person can find their way back.

That's the goal, that good decent person, the goal should never be having the monster 'accept' you.

Anyone willing to be accepted by the monster needs to have a higher opinion of themselves.

Quote:

I guess the issue is that there's no real "yardstick" on how long a spouses stands with their MLCer.


As long as they can. And to have no regrets no matter the outcome.
You guys---THANK YOU.

I want to say how much I appreciate your feedback.

Bright: Yes, it sounds as though we are both in similar boats, but in the same scary river!
I know this is going to get better for both of us, one way or another.
It's easier to detach when we really see them, warts and all.
I know I want to make sure my perceptions are clear, and not based on what a WAW would do; focus on only the negative in order to facilitate detachment.

My H has positive qualities; it's just that now that I'm REALLY seeing and thinking about our life together, I can see where there were some red flags and things I continually let slide, for the sake of our M.
There are some dynamics and things that he did regularly that really hurt me... and I let it go.
I'm not sure that was really healthy on my part.
I am working through all that now in IC.

UR: I understand what you're saying. My goal would be to keep my heart open for him more... perhaps one day I will be able to do this. It is a fine line to walk, between being vulnerable to more hurt from him and being open to him as my H.
Right now it's all I can do to avoid the pain of my sitch.

I can forgive him, I feel I have. He is flawed, he screwed up, he's in crisis.
I do have compassion for him. I just wonder how long I can maintain this if it turns out it's at the expense of myself.
So far, it hasn't been. I haven't allowed that to happen.
And, as others have pointed out, my GUBU is pretty tame compared to some.

On the other hand, I think his issues run very deep, and avoiding conflict is ingrained in him, so he doesn't like emotional drama. That's equally good and bad. He avoids feeling anything that makes him uncomfortable, and there are many things that do.

I guess it's semantics.
I have "forgiven" but I have not forgotten.
And "forgiving" doesn't mean what he's done/doing doesn't matter, that it doesn't need to be addressed and "treated" as the traumatic experience it was for me, and-- I'm sure for him as well.

What I poorly expressed is that IF I am on my own after a D, then I believe I will be at peace with not having the answers I'd like, and not having him help me work through this.
I strongly feel I will be able to let the lion's share of the negativity go if we are D, (with time and therapy, I'm not that naive), and will be able to leave him to his own work, and to focus on my own, as we begin new, separate, lives.
-------------------------------------------------------------
In short, if we divorce, I will be able to accept what has happened without any help from him.
I didn't believe that a few months ago. It's real progress for an analytical type like me.

But, if we are to remain together, there is no way I could go on without some answers, some prevention, some serious work as a couple.
I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder if H believes that my statement that "I have forgiven him" means "We can let bygones be bygones."

That will only happen if we D.
If we R, then all the issues which brought us to this point will have to be identified and worked though, separately and together.
If he's like most men, that's something he'd probably prefer to avoid if at all possible. And being himself, it means he'd rather chew off his own foot than confront the internal issues he's been trying to avoid his entire life.
Does that make my position more clear?
I think sometimes writing it out helps to clarify it in my mind.

Gwen: You sound very wise. I would love to be able to love unconditionally and keep my heart open to H in his struggles.
I am better at this some days than others.
To feel the love I've always felt for him and then allow myself to believe that is gone forever, and then to accept that this person I loved has done what he has done to me... it's easier for me at this point to harden my heart to him somewhat.

I think how you put it: allowing yourself to accept "the whole enchilada of life", is very apt. I think while in self-preservation mode, it's difficult to feel ALL OF IT.
It hurts too much.
I do hope that one day, I'll get there. To be able to be happy for the good times, and accept that it's over with no hurt or anger left.

I do love him unconditionally. I always have. I still love him today.
But that doesn't mean I want to remain married to him, or that it would be healthy for me for me to do so.

I guess that's where I'm sticking now.
That there were dynamics in our M prior to his MLC meltdown that were very unhealthy for me. I believe (and my therapists concur) that he has certain issues that he withheld from me, or manipulated me into a position where he could control me to some degree.
And I was happily clueless.

Those things would have to change, because now I know what was going on.

But yes. I still love the man. Definitely not "in love" though. (Honestly? I think all that is just chemical attraction and never lasts anyway. Unless you work really hard at it, and most couples just don't. I'd like to be half of one couple who does, though!)
Anyhow---I just don't know if it would be wise to have him in my life down the road as anything but a "friendly neighbor".

Wonka, Jack-Three-Beans---I have read your posts and want to respond to them when I've had more time to digest.

But just off the top of my head:
* I believe he is in MLC and looking back, I think this is his second round, the first having occurred before we were married and he was 39. I'd pushed a lot of that out of my mind. But he crashed and burned, got into therapy for the first time ever, things were great between us, and we married.
I think now that he never really dealt with his chit, and therefore it reared its ugly head again later in life, when it had grown in size from all those years of festering and denying... It was bound to happen.

* I am definitely still DBing and would like remained married to H. But as they say, the "old marriage is dead". The new one would have to be better than ever, and free from the harmful dynamics which, in hindsight, I can see plagued our old one.

* I am working on myself--big time. It's all I can do, and I am taking advantage of this time I've been given. I want to be a better person, and I want to identify and work on whatever issues I bring to the table. I am not afraid of examining myself even more intensely than I do my H.

* I understand that in MLC it's a waiting game, that he is not himself, and I am prepared to wait---until a point. I don't know when that turning point will be, but I suspect it will be close to the time when he can finalize a D with or without my consent. That will be in Feb 2016.
I'm not trying to put a timeline on things, it's just logistical. If he can finalize the divorce, it means I will be forced to move from my home, (can't possibly afford it) and will need to make major life changes which will take me away from here, and from him.
Once that happens, I am certain I will be done.

On the other hand, if he doesn't push the D through at that time, it could go on longer if he is moving towards making some personal progress and looking at R. I am open to anything. And perhaps by then I will have been able to master the fine art of loving fully, unconditionally, and yet not being hurt by the actions of my beloved.

(Wow. Did I just write that ^^^ ? )

And jim---well, I don't know about everybody else, but I LOVED what you wrote. It was like a "Vulcan Mind-Meld"...:)
Are you sure you're not my "Brother From Another Mother"???

Anyhow, there was so much there it deserves a considered response. Just wanted you to know I read it and was floored. Really.

But--more later. Sheesh!
"Short Post" = "Diarrhea of the Mouth".
Me of the flying fingers that barely keep up with my flying mind.
It's a Monster Mash up in my noodle... smile



--(G)GGG
PS: I'm guessing Christmas is going to be really busy around here. It was already getting to me in the stores yesterday. "Wishing My Husband A Merry Christmas" cards, and that's just the beginning. The commercials, the music...
ARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
WARNING: Christmas Musings
PITY PARTY ALERT!!!!!!!!


Can somebody please remove the sappy Christmas commercials about love, and diamonds, and sleigh bells, and "dashing through the snow" to a festive home complete with warm hearth and family-- and SPOUSES?????

There is snow here on the mountain, the animals are in the manger, there are stars above. It LOOKS like Christmas, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it.
Except if you count wrapping paper. I hate wrapping paper.
It's an Aspie thing. I can't wrap!!!!
But this year I have created "workarounds" that are very creative and look great!
Still---I hate it.

Anyhow---

It's not Christmas yet, but this Goal Gal is looking into her crystal ball and seeing a very lonely Christmas indeed. No way around that; I have plans "around" THE big eve and day.

But those times I know I'll be alone in another state in an empty house.
I'll have my two mutts with me, and I'll make sure they sing Christmas carols, rip open rawhide bones...that should be good for about ten minutes.

Still---I'm focusing on giving to others, and not dwelling on my own stuff. But...
Crap, y'all.

It [censored] to be alone all the time. But mostly it [censored] to be alone on the Holidays.

Good thing they make Bourbon, Eggnog, and Netfliks. smile

Last year was worse, I think. I was still reeling. This year is more--pensive.
But still alone.

Story of my life. Boo hoo for me.

(Hoo hoo too--for good measure.)

Your Pal,

The Goat Gal

(Who won't even be with my goats on Christmas. And they are so cute with their Reindeer antlers and Santa hats.... smile )
To reply----

Wonka said:
"At what point does one say, "it ain't working for me any more. I have too much self-worth to fritter away any more time.' ?"


Wonka, I guess that's when it's clear that my frittering days are over. I like fritters--probably more than the average person--but considering my advanced age and limited resources, I don't have the luxury of waiting around forever. It just can't happen.

"I sense that it is where GoatGal is at the present moment. What I am seeing happen more and more is that GoatGal has truly taken off her rose-colored glasses and seeing things much more clearer that will inform her decisions going forward."

Ahhhhh.... very inscrutable, Grasshopper! Per kml, my proverbial "Rose Colored Glasses" are off. I held onto them as long as I could. But there came a point--through therapy, my own reading, the support here--where I took a long, hard look at the truth of my marriage. And it wasn't pretty.
Not by a long shot.

So I'm not endowing H with a host of unflattering descriptions because I'm looking for reasons why his divorcing me will be all "for the best" down the road. It's just REALITY.
I can see it now, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing.


I can see how my Asperger's allowed him to manipulate me. I try not to think of it as a disability because I feel more "abled" than the average person. But it DOES make it harder for me to read intent--and to tell when someone is lying/manipulating me.
I trusted my H, and didn't think I had to be on guard with him.

I was WRONG.
Believe me, I am kicking myself for being the wife who never snooped, who took him at his word, who trusted him, and who gave him lots of "space"!

---------------------------------------------------------------

Jack Three Beans said:
"And I have problems seeing/reading about people who I think should move on. But that's not my place to do that to someone, its not my job to remove that person's hope. For me? My hope was near gone when my wife came around. I outlasted it barely...and actually I wanted her to fail at the time cause I had plans that didn't involve her."

Jack--this is very inspiring to me. You "wanted her to fail because you had plans that didn't involve her"... I understand that too well.
You start to make your plans with the idea that your life together is OVER.

You get yourself jazzed up about your single future, all the positives, the things you will no longer have to take into consideration.
(Granted, this is to offset the betrayal and pain and "reality" that your partner no longer wants you. It's completely understandable.)

That is sort of where I am now. Trying to make Lemonade from the lemons that H has given me. I can't count on him; I can only count on myself. So I am trying very hard to envision a life which does not include him.
Is that wrong? It feels necessary.
I know I should be the stanchion, lighthouse, keep the road home smoothly paved, be strong, be consistent...I have been doing this.
But I can't help but wonder: What about ME?
I am doing and giving and STFUing and CTHDing and DBing...
NO ONE is meeting MY needs. No one is giving affection to me.

No one has said they loved me or given me tender affection in YEARS.
No sex, no kisses, no holding at night, no cuddling on the couch.
For YEARS.
And I WAS MARRIED!!!!
So--Boo-Hoo for me-- again.

(Okay, I'm finished.)


"If/when an LBS comes to that decision on their own after giving it their all? I'll cheer them on. But far be it from me to tell them when that happens."


Very wise. No one can know when it's "time". My therapist of many years STARTED OFF OUR SESSION AFTER THE OW DISCOVERY by saying;
"So--WHY EXACTLY do you want to try and cobble this marriage together?"

I finally had to stop seeing her, because I felt I had to sell her on the idea that I wanted to give my H a chance to turn this around. That my R with him had value. That after 20+ years where I felt loved and valued he hadn't just turned into a monster. That I KNEW something was WRONG.

She finally came around to my way of thinking--grudgingly. I see her on occasion, but mostly just deal with my shrink for meds, etc.

"Do you believe your husband is having an MLC? That's really important because that answer shapes and affects everything else."

Yes. I do believe he is in MLC. But I don't think that's all that's plaguing him. He has many issues which he kept successfully buried during our time together; I think MLC just made it so he could no longer compensate and he went off the deep end.
(And he can't swim. Really. Can't swim.)

"The truth you want to tell him, only works if he is capable of listening and considering it. To that end it won't work until he is at a stage of MLC where he is realizing that the problems in his life have the common denominator of "him"."

"I want you to know that we are going to support you as long as you're trying to be a better person, because that better person is going to have a better relationship next time."

That's why I come here. I am alone mostly 24/7 and this board has been a lifesaver for me.
It's nice to hear you say that you will continue to support my efforts to deal with whatever my sitch throws at me. I know you have been around for a long time; I can't profess to know what you have learned--only that I'm TRYING. I'm trying to hold it together the best that I can.

Yes, Jack. That is really what this is all about. I AM trying to be better.
With my "challenges", this is what my life has been all about.
(*sniff, tear, sniff*)
My whole life has been a journey to connect with others; to stop being the outcast, to share the love and compassion I feel so intensely deep down, but struggled with being able to show that to the people I cared about. I like to think I had this ability well under my belt when I met H; but---in my soul-searching I wonder if this is true.

I miss things still---subtle cues, little things that other "normal" people just pick up on naturally.
That's not me. It's all measured, studied, practiced. I learned for myself what came with the program for the average person.
That's not to say I don't feel things intensely, feel deeply, desire to love and be loved.
I do.
And I probably work harder at friendships and romantic relationships than so-called "normal" folks because it MEANS THAT MUCH TO ME. And because I know that it is a weakness of mine-- just "getting" people on a visceral level.

Believe me--I beat myself up about this on a daily basis. "If only I had been "normal" I woulda/coulda/shoulda".... but then I stop.

My "disability" comes with a caveat. And that is I have a very clear sense of right and wrong. Good and bad. So I have tried very hard to be "A GOOD WIFE" insofar as I understand it.

(Insert list here of ideal wifely qualities and I will be happy to tell you how I aspired to embody each one. smile )



Anyhow.
I'm just doing the best I can with what I have to work with--much like H is at this time.

I'm not sure that I'm on solid ground while he is going through his crisis; I'm finding my own way as he is finding his.

This is hard--killer hard--and a test of all the skills I've learned throughout my life.

I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me, and I don't want anyone to believe my blustery display of bravado---because the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


And even I am not sure of how I really feel at any given moment, and what I really want for the future.
All I can say is that I am doing pretty well with not being in the driver's seat for such a significant portion of my life.

I am making the best of a bad situation. I'm learning, watching, improving, hoping, and waiting---for some sign that the next phase needs to begin, and that the ball is in my court to make that happen.

Your Pal,

The Goat Gal


PS: Jim, your post deserves an entire post devoted to it; one needs time to process these things!
I will respond to your wonderful post when I have time to respond in a way which does it justice.

But let me say, if you're reading this, we could have a heck of a Christmas toast, sharing horror stories, if I were of a Revolutionary mind. smile
First, let me say I totally agree with you GG, about Jim's post. Fantastic insight!

And, then I will also say that I think you're doing GREAT, GG. I think I am right about in the same place you are right now, except I have only 18 months under my belt since BD -- 18 months and 2 days, as a matter of fact. Sounds like you've been at this a bit longer and have had to put up with quite a bit more than I have. Of course, in my state, there is no waiting period beyond the required 60 days, so I may no longer be M by March or April. I wish I had the waiting period you do -- you've still got some time. And that time frame may be just what you need to figure out what you really want to do. The answers will come to you when they need to come to you.

I get the alone-ness -- I work from home at least 3 days a week, so I'm here by myself alot too. We are fortunate to both be introverts and generally have no problem being alone. But, yeah, sometimes it's just too much!

Hang in there GG -- we will both be ok. In due time. All your hard work will pay off one way or another. So will mine. I hope you have a good X-mas, despite all of this. I plan to -- my second since BD (last year was rough for me too). Make it a good one, no matter what you do. And know that next X-mas, no matter what, will be better!

Thank you for continuing to write here. It truly helps others like me who are in a similar sitch.
Always happy to provide my ill informed opinions. smile actually that is probably one of my STBXW's complaints

Its strange whenever an American mentions revolution I feel an uncontrollable urge to stash my tea somewhere safe....
Jim,

I always like to retort to a British friend of mine who lives near me that you guys lost the Colonies just to put her in place in a jokey way. Nice to have that handy in my hip pocket. wink
GGG,

Would you mind stopping by my thread on Newcomers? Wonka informed me that you might have some good insight. I just revealed to my WAW my long time porn problem. She knew about it in our early years, but I eventually just hid it from her and convinced her I was over it. Now it's out in the open and she's in real pain from the news (surprising me, since she recently told me she wants a D). I'm following some of Wonka's validation and ownership advice, but I was wondering if you had anything else to add since you have the unique perspective of being betrayed by porn.

Thank you, and good wishes
Sure, Card.

I have been reading bits and pieces.
I would suggest that you go back to my earliest posts because they give some background on my sitch.

I am not anti-porn, per se, but for some people it can be a real problem. And when it becomes a problem, it destroys relationships. It destroys intimacy--the emotional kind.
It creates porn-induced ED, from which I believe my H suffered (among other things).

In my case, he began to prefer porn to me, and looking back I can see that he was not the LD (low desire) partner I thought I married. He was just giving a large portion of his energies to his solo pursuits and I was getting the obligatory once-a-week (if that) mechanical roll in the hay.

On his terms. Always his way and on his terms. My pleas for more emotional connection, more physical, non-sexual affection... fell on deaf ears.
As I "complained" he became even more distant, blaming ME for not being attractive to him for whatever fill-in-the-blank reason of the day.
And he turned away even more.

I finally gave up.

Even the exposure of his OW and all that betrayal didn't blow things up between us. After that he stated emphatically that he did NOT want a divorce.

All that changed when I exposed his porn addiction. (I really believe it is an addiction for him, and he has admitted it--then backpedaled and denied, round and round we go).

When I said, "The porn has got to go, it's that or me. Get help or get out.'
He left, after having filed for divorce. He LOST it when I changed the login info for the internet, and put a password on the computer. He bought himself a private laptop the very next day and locked me out of it.

He was furious. So you tell me that he doesn't have a real problem?
He didn't need it for work or keeping in touch with friends, let's just say that.

He eventually told me, by way of explanation of "Why" he wanted to divorce me.
"I'm only interested in shallow relationships... and porn is a big part of that."
He meant sexually. Obviously, marriage was no longer compatible with that vision of his perfect life.
Apparently, this was the only aspect of a relationship he was interested in at that time.
His online dating profile supported that.
He stated that he is looking for someone who has no other qualifications other than being interested enough in him to fulfill his sexual fantasies.
And that he would consider that "a serious relationship". I guess he means exclusive?
And perhaps he thinks there are plenty of women would be interested in this arrangement with a 63+ year old man who needs Viagra...?
Anyhow, he thinks it's somehow more preferable than having to "pay for it" but at this point in his life, I think it's only "pros" who are going to do what he now "needs" in order to perform. The average woman isn't going to be interested in what he has to offer in that department.

Let's just say that porn has ruined him for any kind of loving, connected sexual encounters. He liked to think that his OW was somehow "special" because he only needed Viagra "after awhile". Like when the novelty wore off and she started acting like a real person.
That relationship was carried on in great secrecy during work hours, involving a lot of sneaking around and fear of getting caught in public places.
Not exactly your "intimate, romantic" connection.

He really can't perform unless certain "circumstances" are met, and although I'm no prude, I'm not willing to just play his game his way any longer. I've had over 20 years of that crap and I'm done with it.

Sad, really.

I have stopped looking at his dating site for my "no snooping" mental health, so I don't know whether or not he's still in that phase, but he may well be. He seems to think the key to happiness is dangling between his legs.


Anyhow, the porn isn't the real issue, it's a symptom of what's wrong inside him. His fears of intimacy, various phobias, low self-esteem... they all make porn an attractive alternative to a wife who has needs, desires, and may "judge" him.
(I never did, btw.)

He has sought some help, but I don't ask questions about it. I figure he'll tell me if and when he feels it's relevant.

But I will get on over to your thread and do some more reading.


---(G)GGG
Jim,

I just wanted to say that so much of what you wrote above really resonated with me. It's almost like you were in my H's head--or maybe in mine!

I thought it was really insightful and it means a lot to me that you took the time to write everything in such detail.

I keep going back and reading bits and pieces, it's that interesting to me.
I don't really understand the mindset, but I think you hit on some really good theories about why he might react the way he does.

I think his self-esteem is really poor, especially now that he has behaved so terribly towards me. I know doing that is really causing some cognitive dissonance for him. He always prided himself on being a "good guy" and treating me well. In his own way, of course.

And we all know now that insisting on only showing his love in ways HE WANTED wasn't meeting my needs. He needed to speak my Love Language, and he never wanted to learn.

By the same token, he expected me to "know" what he wanted without asking. He had expectations for me which he never shared, he said "yes" when he meant "no".
He still doesn't seem to understand that there is a middle ground between agreeing and refusing.
He has always refused to discuss, cooperate, compromise, collaborate, communicate. We rarely fought, and when we did, it was because I expressed displeasure at something (however kindly) and he either took it as criticism and attacked me, or he manipulated the topic so it turned out to somehow be focused on me and my "faults" which I then ended up defending.

Somehow, it never went anywhere because he deflected and blamed me. And topped it all off with "It's my fault, I knew when I married you that you were (whatever). It's not fair to expect you to be any different."

And that's when we were talking about him! His behavior was "MY" fault.
I wish I had a nickel for every time he said "Well, I did THAT because YOU..."

Anyhow--enough H-Bashing. Poor man's got enough to deal with now.

But I can see now that that's the way things were, and I can't live like that anymore.
I'd like to believe he can change, but as I said before, he'd have to really WANT to. And I'm not sure he has the guts.

--(G)GGG
Quick Update:

Well, after having to push back a bit last week when H crossed my boundaries with some snide comments, it appears as if we have had a bit of a shift again.

The other night he was here and was doing his old "ignoring me" routine. It's not like I chatter on and on, just said something, then repeated it, he didn't respond---finally I asked if he heard me and he said, "yeah". (RUDE!!!!!)
I said I thought perhaps he'd left the room, to which he said "Well it wasn't a direct question so I didn't think I needed to reply."

It was just small talk, but since I rarely see him and I'm alone all the time and he was sitting not ten feet from me, and the comment was about him specifically, it was just his passive-aggressive crap and I wasn't having any of it.

After BD he did this ALL THE TIME. Would just ignore me if I said anything, not even grunt that he'd heard me. Got irritated if I said more than two sentences... he was back to this last week, snipping at me on the phone, really short with me. Wanted to relay his info and clearly was annoyed that I even said "Oh, that's interesting..." whatever...

Anyhow, I didn't react, that I knew of, but he must have been watching me because he caught it. I was getting ready to go out. (Looking HAWT!!!!) and he asked:
"So---what did I do to piss you off so much?"

(Here's me, hadn't said a word, didn't make a sound, didn't think I'd communicated my annoyance with his ignoring me. He's a good observer.)

Anyhow, I said. "It's just me. I guess I have an expectation that by this point, you'd be able to be in a room with me and not act like I have the plague, that we'd be at a place where if one of us spoke, the other would respond in a friendly and supportive manner. But that's just my expectation, not a demand on you. You are free to respond however you like. My frustration is only that I had an expectation, and it was not met."

He said---nothing.

So I left...forgot my scarf and came back in, and he was all nice and chatty...offered a solution for my car, and was extra nice to me.
Taking a page from Jim's playbook(!) I took this as his "apology"... and said I was sorry if I came off snippy, it's not my intent.
I told him that I was just---sensitive--to the interactions between us and I would try to toughen up a bit more.

That was Saturday. Since then he's been nice as pie.
Still no communication during the day from him, but I do not initiate AT ALL. If he writes a two word text to me, I don't respond.

I am "training" him for what I want. REAL COMMUNICATION.
So I am very pleasant, funny, helpful and nice when he calls. I call him back promptly, and I respond to his nice texts/emails with nice ones of my own.

So 90% warmth or sometimes 100%.

He sent me an email about Ukulele playing, a link he found, and this is unusual because he HATED my ukulele playing in general. I consider that a peace offering.
---------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I have been looking for is for him to do something nice for me without me asking. Now he's been doing that for a few days.

For the first time in almost a year he asked me if I "needed anything" while he was on his way here. (This he used to do every day before BD, but never since.)

He spent quite a bit of time researching something I needed for my upcoming trip, went to three different stores, and finally gave me a solution I could do myself, apologizing for not being able to get what I needed.
(I hadn't even asked him to do this, he OFFERED! This is NEW!)

He now calls on a regular basis.
He is giving me his whereabouts consistently. He is doing small things for me without me having to ask. He is offering, as I've wanted him to do.

I know a few of you thought I was being a bit harsh with him when he pushed my buttons, but I think he needed to know that I was still "me" and wasn't going to take any chit!

I think perhaps my "nice a pie" routine might have started to come off a bit phony. I am a strong sort, and although I can be all sweet and compassionate, I also don't brook any nonsense.

The fact remains that H doesn't respect people who allow others to walk all over them.

((STARSKY!!!! <3 ))))

So I had to find my girlie balls and let 'em swing free for a few days. It seemed to clear up a few things, anyway.

That's the latest, DBers.

I'll be traveling between now and Jan 3 or so, but I'll be checking in regularly.
I want to make sure nobody drowns in the Eggnog...


---(G)GGG
PS: When did I get a smiley next to my name? I like it! Did I do that?
<<<<<<How does this happen?
When did we all get faces?
And why is Wonka's so sad?

Are the gray ones GHOSTS?????
Because I do NOT want to see dead people.

The live ones are scary enough.
Really.
GGG,

Sad?? I'm sad? Since when?

And we do have girlie balls??! Where can I find 'em?

I'm starting to think that Jim has H figured out pretty well. I can't really understand the male mind although I confess that rather saying "sorry", I do offer peace offerings through AOS. I have always have a hard time saying sorry. One time I apologized to my late father not too long before he passed on, his eyes widened in mock shock and gave me that look. I burst out laughing.
Wonky,

<<<<< It's the Avatars next to our user names.
Mine is a smiley, but yours is a sad, gray ghosty face.

It can't be # of posts...thoughts?

And yes. We have girlie balls.
They're called OVARIES.

Mozza said on Card's thread:

"Those moments of openness and honesty are those we fear the most yet they are the ones that provide the greatest satisfaction. There's nothing I'd want more just now than to tell my W what I learned and where I failed her. Not all of us find the right time and channel to do so."

This is so good I'm stealing it for my thread because I wish I'd said it!


Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Wonky,

<<<<< It's the Avatars next to our user names.
Mine is a smiley, but yours is a sad, gray ghosty face.

It can't be # of posts...thoughts?



Nope. Grey means we're not logged on and a smiley means someone's logged on. Or posted recently. cool smile
Originally Posted By: wonka
I'm starting to think that Jim has H figured out pretty well.



We can test that through GGGs experiments, actually write a playbook smile

I think its more I'm figuring myself out and from the way H is described I find myself reading a lot across. Now if only I could apply it usefully......
Oh WOW! I came on over here after reading your posts on Card's thread, GGG. So much about what you have written lately speaks to me. I too am questioning how to balance detachment with retaining feelings of love. Already forgiven H. Bingo! And the things you say about porn? Much of that feels true as well, though it was not acknowledged as an issue before BD. I still don't really have a handle on what I am dealing with but it does seem to be a personal crisis on behalf of H.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for articulating some of the things that have been floating around my head lately. And special thanks for speaking so openly about your experiences with porn. I think that resonates with a lot of people on here.
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