I didn't realize that my thread was locked...oops
old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...526#Post2495526~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I decided to call this thread "my chance = HIS chance"... as this is how I need to view this. I realize that he is indulging into some form of a R with me, atm...and I am super thrilled for that. However, I need to realize that it is HIM who is lucky and this is HIS chance to get things right with me!
Due to some questions that I had for my accountant, he brought up again today that we need to still discuss/finalize our deal.... also, because he will be needing some $$ now too (business needs new roof)
Today he tried to get me to come along on a business road trip... just for the company. As much as I wanted to go & get out of here, I figured here was another opportunity that was convenient for him to have me on his term. It was hard to say no, because I am eager to get outside, talk to other people, ANYTHING that gets me out of the house....But, I said "no, that I should probably do some administrative stuff that I hadn't done this morning due to investigating another project". His response was fine, but then when I asked about something else, he seemed a little on the pissy/irritable side.
If he wants to spend time with me, it should be "after hours"... not squeezed in because its a nice day & he choses to take my company/time. However, him even asking me to go is a 180 for him, as before he would see this as a one person job.... it doesn't take 2 people to go an hour away to get a part. (Although we just did this together 2 days ago)
Eric... where are you? (Tx for giving me permission to contact you off site)
Things seem to be rolling along & others are commenting that they notice that my X seems to be changing/more relaxed.
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Yesterday, he went out of town, I gave an excuse to stay behind and not be convenient/available. When he returned he asked if I wanted to go out for a drink with him and our mechanic/friend. I was still eager to get out & be with other people so I jumped at his offer. He asked me to meet at his place to wait for our friend to show up. Once there, I gave him his b-day gift & we were lounging relaxing on the bed. Opposite ends. He made sure that his leg entwined with mine & then he placed his hand on my foot. Light convo. I remembered that I needed to look for my birth certificate, but forgot as we left. He remembered & said when I get back I can look again.
We went for drinks with our friend. Our friend seems to be living a happy married life & knows how to separate work from life even though his shop is on his property. He was commenting that he has noticed that my Xbf is more relaxed and casual, not so stressed since buying the property.
After drinks, I went back to his place... along the ride I mentioned how I wanted to get my birth certificate. He said I could take a good look another time, if I wanted. I said, that I think I know where it was and prefer to get it now. I asked if that was ok and he said sure. When I got in, it wasn't in the drawer I assumed it would be... He suggested to try another drawer (my stuff was moved) and it was. I was a little upset going through my stuff but didn't make a fuss about it and asked for a half glass of wine. When he returned with my wine, he sat on the bed & started to massage my shoulders, neck & back. I reciprocated back massaging his legs & feet. At one point he sat facing me & started kissing me. At this point I had finished my wine & said "well, I guess I should get going...its getting late (9:30)" He said "its early". It was difficult, but I pulled myself out of that situation and began to leave. He informed me that he was "in the mood" but did not pressure or ask me to stay. Its my choice to leave. I told him that we could have "flirt chat/sex" over the phone... that it would be fun... But, he wasn't into doing that... maybe another time.
Admittingly, I was disappointed that he didn't want to do what I wanted to do.
I wasn't sure how to handle that rejection. He asked me to text when I got in. So, I did. I also sent a text saying "thanks for sharing and a sad face"... He replied "your welcome & cheers"
Its odd, but I do feel him warming up to me & wanting to be with me more.
Eric... where are you? (Tx for giving me permission to contact you off site)
You are welcome. If you emailed me I did not receive anything.
Due to some questions that I had for my accountant, he brought up again today that we need to still discuss/finalize our deal.... also, because he will be needing some $$ now too (business needs new roof)
Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock…….. <insert picture of Eric yawning……..thinking…when is this deal gonna get done>
it doesn't take 2 people to go an hour away to get a part. (Although we just did this together 2 days ago)
Yes…no….yes….no….yes…no…..
I hope you can start to see that your own actions are confusing. They confusing because they are imo, tactics. I know you will disagree with me and justify it. I expect it. I have been around long enough and have seen and read enough ….not to mention lived it myself…to recognize that your actions are specifically to secure a REACTION from your H.
Let me show you what I define as tactics…..
I gave an excuse to stay behind and not be convenient/available
If you wanted to go – then go. If you did not want to go…then you should not have gone. You see, you do things EXPECTING him to do or not do something vs YOU doing something because YOU want to. Wanna know why? FEAR. Period. You still FEAR losing him and guess what…that gives HIM all of the POWER in the R.
I was still eager to get out & be with other people so I jumped at his offer.
NOTICE that YOU did not just get out to be with other people. Nope. YOU agreed to HIS offer. Now I’m not sure how the convo went…but I suspect that it was not a (you to him)..”umm…yeah I was just about to head out so sure if you want to drop me off that would be great”. It appears to me, once again that HE drove the direction that this went.
Once there, I gave him his b-day gift & we were lounging relaxing on the bed. Opposite ends. He made sure that his leg entwined with mine & then he placed his hand on my foot. Light convo. I remembered that I needed to look for my birth certificate, but forgot as we left. He remembered & said when I get back I can look again.
Why do you lay on his bed? Noticed that HE entwined his leg. Another example of everything done on his terms and his way. That is…with the exception of the tactic you try to get him to do something your way.
After drinks, I went back to his place... along the ride I mentioned how I wanted to get my birth certificate. He said I could take a good look another time, if I wanted. I said, that I think I know where it was and prefer to get it now. I asked if that was ok and he said sure. When I got in, it wasn't in the drawer I assumed it would be... He suggested to try another drawer (my stuff was moved) and it was. I was a little upset going through my stuff but didn't make a fuss about it and asked for a half glass of wine. When he returned with my wine, he sat on the bed & started to massage my shoulders, neck & back. I reciprocated back massaging his legs & feet. At one point he sat facing me & started kissing me. At this point I had finished my wine & said "well, I guess I should get going...its getting late (9:30)" He said "its early". It was difficult, but I pulled myself out of that situation and began to leave. He informed me that he was "in the mood" but did not pressure or ask me to stay. Its my choice to leave. I told him that we could have "flirt chat/sex" over the phone... that it would be fun... But, he wasn't into doing that... maybe another time.
Admittingly, I was disappointed that he didn't want to do what I wanted to do.
Sometimes reading the stuff your write is tough. Really tough. You just DO NOT, CARE NOT TO or CANNOT see the dynamic in your R.
- You asked for wine (not a sign that you are beginning to pull away from him). You ask for wine in his house, where you had been laying on his bed. More on this…
- He started to rub your back. Ummm…I wonder what he was thinking. He already served you wine, so maybe just maybe…he was and it appears he was, trying to “get some”. What does that say about YOU…that he does not respect you enough to be flexiable and give you what YOU need.
- “he” started kissing you. Your pulling back IMO, only did one thing – it told him NOT today. It did not tell him that YOU matter, that YOUR needs matter.
- He informed me “he was in the mood”….funny it is always about HIM, his needs, his wants, his timing.
- I told him we could have flirty chat sex – WTF….are you kidding me. Do you understand why you offered this? Was it just that you were horny? Or was it…YOU way of staying connected but still trying to play hard to get so that he understand you are serious about respecting yourself. If it was the later…not a good move IMO.
- “it was difficult” but I pulled away – Look who am I to judge. If you needed to get “off” ya should have just done it. Chances are you would feel the same way you do today. It is almost like he has a control over you – both your mind and your body. Until you realize that, there is not much anyone can do to help you.
Its odd, but I do feel him warming up to me & wanting to be with me more.
How from this you get this feeling is beyond me.
He could be hung like a horse, have the stamina of a thoroughbred….and I still would want not part of him. None. Not now.
MM, I really beginning to wonder….are you really trying to FIX you or are you just trying to get HIM back.
I assume it is the later….so maybe my advice should be geared more toward just getting him back. If this is indeed the case then here is my advice.
1) Sleep with him whenever he wants or whenever you want.
2) Keep doing what you are doing – he will come back…whenever it is that he is ready.
3) If he does not come back anytime soon at least you guys can still run the business and be f-buddies.
4) Really….if you entire purpose in life is to get him back….keep doing what you are doing.
Hi Eric,
"SOME" of what you say is true... some is not:
I forgot to mention that while in our/his bedroom looking for my birth certificate, I noticed a handwritten statement that he was writing like a will. Appointing his dad as executor, stating I am 49% business, money to go to my DD, and his mom to have some direction of his money too.
I know he is working in his head on figuring out our agreement stuff.
My actions (yes, no, yes, no) are what I understood Michelles approach to saving our R... to not say yes to every offer. It is not done intentionally as a tactic, but to try to withhold "some" dignity and make him do the work he should be doing to GET me.
We lay on his bed, as our room was always more of a TV room anyway. We were in there opening his bday gift and just relaxing. Most of the furniture in the living room is gone (mine). There is a small 2 seater sofa in there.... thats it.
YES!!! Exactly "HE" entwined his leg & "HE" placed his hand on my foot. <<<< This is the stuff I have been waiting for. This is the stuff that was missing in our relationship. It was always ME who did the approach and affection stuff.
Eric, I NEEEEEEEED to see/know that HE chooses me!! 180 for both! I need to hear "his" suggestions of what we will do (socially), feel "his" moves (affection, sexual attempts), etc. <<<< this is the pursuit I need/want. I understand the difference between his terms/his direction vs. mine. I am slowly getting a guy who is more invested, because HE wants to be... (not cuz I manipulated or controlled it). He invited me out last night. He could have easily gone for drinks with his buddy & not include me. This is new.
~ Yes, I asked for wine, I was standing at the time (lounging was 2 hours earlier before going out). He motioned for me to sit on the bed. It was quite nice for HIM (not me) to offer massage.
~ Yes, HE started to rub my back (we both complain of aches often). He suggested that we go for couples massages. Its possible that HE was trying to get some. However, he did not pursue all that much if he was trying to get that. I don't understand how this is not respecting or giving me what I need.... explain?
~ He started kissing me, and I pulled away (180)...I do not do that!!!! OK, it told him not today (and thats how I was feeling..not today) .... not understanding how that is a bad thing. I was feeling good that I was able to control myself.
~ Yes... he was "in the mood"... yes, its about him!! ... However, he did not pout or get demanding. He was ok that "I" was not indulging in him.
~ Yes... looking at it now, asking for flirty phone call, was because I wanted to stay connected... I guess, kind of playing hard to get... Im not understanding what you are suggesting here. Why not a good move?
~ Yes, pulling away was hard because I want to BE with him. I love our time when in his arms, etc. At this time, he may have control over my mind and body (will think of that)... If I accept and realize that... what does that do. Makes me want to gain control of myself (as above).... isn't that what I am learning to do?
The feeling of him warming up is based on someone who just before BD and up until June was pulling away from me. Now he is coming closer. Asking for my time, starting to be affectionate and not just to guarantee sex. Asking me for family time. Willing to adjust his day, to accommodate me. <<< its just the start... but I see & feel it.
Eric... THIS ^^^^^ stuff is Fixing my relationship....like I said, its just the start.
I am seeing that the more I can pull back the more he leans in.... much like in my previous threads that Job advised me to do. It is now working. "do what works".
There is a lot that needs to be fixed... this is just the beginning.
It is a good feeling to know that he is investing a little more in ME.
Yes, I want him back (if changes continue).
1) we are not sleeping or intercourse ...yet
2) yes... he may be coming back...when he is ready (this is his schedule), not by my demand/request. <<< this will change when I decide I want to confirm our status.
3) we will run the business... I will not be f-buddy.
4) Yep... it has been my entire focus... now that he has invested a little more, maybe now I can have the strength and confidence to find other purposes.
Eric, please do not see this as disagreement... I really do consider what you say. I have questions that I need to ask so that I understand your position better....Tx
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Today, one of us needs to go out of town again to get a part for business. He keeps forming the convo so that it includes me. When he asked if I was going, I said that I couldn't due to my DD lawyer appointment this afternoon. He is currently out for his weekly breakfast with his dad and was willing to cut it short to accommodate me so that I could go... he said "think about it"
He just called again, I could tell he was feeling out the conversation to see if I was going to go with him.
I won't be able to go... kind of rushed if trying to manage with my DD appointment.
MM
SOME" of what you say is true... some is not:
How did I know you were gonna say this ^^^
I noticed a handwritten statement that he was writing like a will. Appointing his dad as executor, stating I am 49% business, money to go to my DD, and his mom to have some direction of his money too.
WOW….did I ever tell you the story of the love note my ex wrote but never gave to me? She wrote it the day before she told me she wanted out. Yeah…I’m sure the “words” are the same as “actions”.
I know he is working in his head on figuring out our agreement stuff.
Okay…a guy named Eric Santos runs Powerball in my state. Can you tell me what numbers he has in his head? Just wondering since you know what your BF is thinking…which leads me to ask….can you scan his brain and see when the business deal will be finalized?
My actions (yes, no, yes, no) are what I understood Michelles approach to saving our R... to not say yes to every offer. It is not done intentionally as a tactic, but to try to withhold "some" dignity and make him do the work he should be doing to GET me.
Honestly, hire a DB coach…have them read ALL your threads and then see what they say about Michelle’s book. FTR, I would be willing to pay for the session – and I am really not kidding.
Eric, I NEEEEEEEED to see/know that HE chooses me!!
And THERE is the PROBLEM….YOU NEED…and that is exactly how you feel. One day I hope and pray that you understand the difference between NEED and WANT. When you do all of this will make sense to you.
Eric, please do not see this as disagreement
Not at all…I NO LONGER see it as disagreement.
So my advice will change now…
You are doing wonderful MM. He is coming closer to you. You see everything you are doing is working. Keep doing what you are doing. He will come back.
Better?
Hey Eric, is your head ok? LOL!
Forgive me MM as I havent read through all your threads. But I have read enough to see that you arent understanding dbing really well.
The thing of it is this. You live your life. You become your best self. You fix the things you decide need fixing. You get yourself good and strong. You figure out that you dont need him, you want him. Happiness is found within you. Someone else should enhance your life, not define it.
You are so wrapped up in his every move and word that you cant really see how this is playing out.
He needs to figure himself out. You need to figure yourself out. When all the work is done, if he decides to look to you, then you decide what you want from a place of strength.
You are giving him all the power here. All of it. You may think you have it when you play these games of cat and mouse with him, but you really dont, sweetie.
This shouldnt be a game or a tactic. It has to be real. The kissing, not kissing, the going or not going. All reads like a game from you.
The reason you say no to going somewhere with him is that you actually have a life that you are living, with friends and activities that you enjoy. So that there will be times that you naturally cannot go with him.
If you are laying in a bed with him and massaging each other, then you pull away or stop...that just aint right. Not fair to put him or you in that position.
He knows you want him, M. There are blaring red lights and freakin fireworks telling him that.
If he wants you, and I mean really wants you, you would know it without a single doubt. If he is still trying to figure that out, he isnt ready.
You need to act with dignity and honor and grace because that's who you want to be. You need to mean what you say and say what you mean because that's who you want to be.
Live your life, M. Be the best person you can be. Find the strength and courage to know deep in your heart that you are worthy and enough. If he wants to recommitt, he will know where to find you. Til then, leave him to figure himself out.
He cant do that while looking over this shoulder at you. He is giving you mixed signals. Screw that, M. You are worth more than that.
You have to become someone who knows that you will be fine whatever way this turns out.
How can you become her?
I think you are trying to use what you've been told or read about. I really do. But the way you see what you are doing is not the way it appears outwardly, IMHO. For example, when he kissed you, you pulled away. You said it was a 180 for you. Then he gets worked up to have sex and you up and leave......but ask for sexting. You see it as doing things in your time, etc.
In my day, men had a word for women who did what I just wrote about, and they did not say it in fondness. They called this being a "tease". Not a sweet, flirty, fun sort of way (that women may think as teasing), but they meant leading a man on sexually......only to deny him. (And you know how rejection feels, don't you?) That is exactly how it looks to me. If I am wrong, the guys can set me straight.
I honestly don't believe you had the intentions to tease, but your methods gets a bit mixed up. If you intend to do things in "your time" then don't lay around on the bed with him and letting him play footsie with you. If he's a warm blooded male, he will see that as leading to sex, MM. Instead of leaving him wanting more, he probably saw it as more game playing.
If you intend to hold out until you have commitment from him, I say good for you. But to ask him for wine, lay around on the bed together, let him try to kiss you........who wouldn't get ideas? And who wouldn't see it as you being a tease? Yes, you felt quite proud of yourself for being able to turn him down and walk away. But wouldn't it be better to know "now" where you plan to draw the line before showtime.....then handle yourself from that direction from the get go? It seems to me that would be a lot classier than just letting your feelings decide if you are strong enough to leave at that moment. Not that your BF would....but that's how some women get raped. Just please think about it.
Hmmm... some things to look at. Thank you Sandi, uRworthy & Eric.
Sandi... I honestly was not doing that to tease. I was trying to do things in "my time". I was trying to convey enjoyment of his hand on my foot, and appreciation for the massage. When he kissed me... I liked that too. I was just trying to end it there and say good night. I was trying to leave him wanting more... I think where I failed was suggesting sexting, etc.<<< this was game playing here. oops. I will think about this next time.
uR...."He needs to figure himself out. You need to figure yourself out. When all the work is done, if he decides to look to you, then you decide what you want from a place of strength. " <<<<< this is where I think we are. We have both done the work (and its still evolving). He is now looking at me, and I am deciding what I want (I am coming from a place where I am challenging and testing my own strength).
The cat/mouse, on/off, kissing/not kissing is what is confusing for me too. I want to be pursued & when he does... am I to give in? I want to leave him wanting more and it not be a game (this is new for me).
I want some of that power... like you suggest. I do think I am starting to have "some" of it. I want more of it & it feels like it comes stronger for me the more I get confident that he is "into it" with me.
"If he wants to recommitt, he will know where to find you. Til then, leave him to figure himself out." <<<< I think he has come to find me (finally).... he just isn't ready to label it (yet). He is "testing the water"... we are treading together. I too am "testing with him"... I want to KNOW certain things before I recommit too. I am not sure if he is giving mixed signals anymore. HE feels like he is changing to be a better person and HE feels he is making the efforts towards me.
I can't believe he is FINALLY making the suggestions & offerings that I was longing for since BD. I wasn't sure he would ever come around again. I am trying to use the squirrel analogy.... is this not the right way?
You asked how I can become the woman who will be ok either way... Three things: to continue to pursue my business agreement, buy a house and hold MY value at each interaction.
Eric... no, I cannot mind read. but I have eyes... I noticed a tab on his computer the other day about appointing executor. I know he is doing stuff.
OK... "need" is desperate.. Want is "desire".... I "want" certain things...
Please don't change the direction of your advice, please continue to direct me. Please also let me know where I am doing things right. TX!
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Last night, we worked late & had to drop a client off at Costco & my vehicle was there as well. As we were pulling into Costco, he asks if I want to grab a pizza tonight and go back to the house and have some drinks. I wasn't able to answer right away as I received a phone call while he was asking. When I got off the phone, I clarified ... and then said sure.
At the house, we sat on the 2 seater couch and he poured me wine & served me pizza. He put on a movie that he had already seen and we sat there and watched it. He toasted to a "successful day" . We watched the movie. Near the end, he was self massaging his arm. I started to massage it for him for a bit. He placed his hand on my leg. I finished massaging & he kept his hand on my leg. I suggested that I leave as we were both tired, he said I should stay till the end of the movie.
I called my DD to come get me at 11. She arrived and he kissed me goodnight.
No, I don't believe you saw it as teasing. I think you are earnest in wanting to apply what you have read. Your problem is that you don't fully grasp some of it. You are unsure so it keeps you from being consistent in your actions.
So, look at what you want. You want him to pursue you. You feel he has never done the pursuing. I get it. The guys here may be able to help more in that department, IDK. However, I think he never
had to pursue, b/c you did it. And I think pursuing must take a bit of energy. I get the impression he tends to be lazy in working on the R......so it makes sense he would not be too zealous pursuing one. However. If you don't pursue, then he will have to do it. Btw, you pursue him every time you discuss the R.
If I understood correctly, when you pull back a little, he draws closer. Add that fact with knowing he does not like for you to pressure him....leads me to suggest the area you MUST be consistent in is keeping your mouth closed about the R. You have not fully tamed that about yourself. So connect those dots.
No R talk from you = his pursuit
Things seem to be complicated in this "relationship", and therefore, it makes the advice more complicated for you to understand and apply. So, I wonder if it would be better for you to stop the game playing altogether. Stop any forms of manipulation. For example, "leaving him wanting more" may be seen as you trying to manipulate him. Personally, I think females have used that one specific "method" since the days of Eve! Early in a new R when a couple first meets, etc., that may work. I think the man plays along a lot of times, just as long as he feels he will finally conquer her. I just don't know that it will work the way you were trying the other night with XBF. IMHO, it would be better to not put yourself in those possible compromising positions. Being in your former bedroom together, drinking wine and having massages, laying on the bed, etc., was setting the mood for intimacy. Surely you knew it. Were you going to see if he would pursue you sexually? I mean, it is an old trick women do when nothing else seems to work. You must have felt a little gratification to see that he still desired you. It just seem kind of Scarlett O'Hara to play......"Oh no, I can't.....you shouldn't, Rhet!"
. Having self respect is good. However, i am not convinced this was an act of valuing yourself, b/c you pretty much shot it down when you suggested the sexting. Yes, I believe that was where you really messed up the worst. But my point being, if you are going to be this "respectful lady" who wants to be pursued by him......don't try to manipulate him in the bedroom and then run out as if you were a shy virgin. Can you see what I mean here? It really does come across as teasing and game playing. I am not saying you should have had sex with him. I am saying you did not handle the situation properly. (Btw, please do not decide to "clarify" your actions with him. Just let it be and don't draw more attention to it.)
What I am trying to say, and having a difficult time, apparently, is to just cut out all the BS. if you can do this one thing............No R talk = his pursuit, then I believe it will be quite an accomplishment. Do you agree? Just simplify your life, MM, by cutting out all this stuff you are trying to apply in what
you see as DBing. If you can control your mouth, you
will be doing a jam-up job of DBing!
Hi Sandi....
Your advice comes with perfect timing.
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After work yesterday, I began to fret if we were going to get together for the evening or not. I know this is not a good feeling for me. This may be due to PMS. I also realized that if I were to ask him for the evening, that would place him in a position to accept or decline. I feared his decline, but also wanted to know that if "I" wanted to get together, would he? So, I approached it in a way knowing that he still had chores he wanted to do at home, I said that I still had things I wanted to do as well and we could see how we felt when we are done. He agreed.
I had time to kill so I popped over to my friends house to burn off that stress as I did not want to be alone.
At 7:00 I texted him. "almost done", he said so was he and asked if I wanted to come over for a bonfire and left over pizza. I said yes.
After the fire, we went inside & I started warming up the pizza while he was in the shower. He came in from the shower (half naked, as usual) and I approached him by kissing him. He led me to the bedroom... we made out.
I indulged in our make out session as I am very attracted to him sexually, and I know he has been "in the mood" for a few days. I also wanted him to not feel like I have been teasing him. I also know that he prefers sex before eating/going out. Therefore he can focus on TV instead of it lingering in the background of his head. This was reassured after as while we were watching TV, I sat there in my undies, tank top & socks (to be comfy). He mentioned that while I looked cute, he was not interested. I jokingly asked that if I wanted "more" would he.. he joked "no, as it was no longer on his mind". I gave a puzzled face. He reassured me that if "I" wanted more, he would participate for me.
We sat & watched two TV shows, as he said that he could not commit to a 2 hour movie. Close to 10:00 my DD called offering to pick me up. I said yes.
I guess I was feeling a bit annoyed/used. Maybe this is accurate or not (PMS). I hinted this as well. I felt that he got what he wanted. Then he feels/mentions that he gave me some time (tv/pizza). I question, if thats all that is wanted..... I dunno (again could be my PMS). I know that HE feels that he is doing his part. Whether its the right way or not, its who he is and how HE feels.
As much as I wanted to stay, I do not want to overstay my welcome. He hugged & kissed me goodbye.
After while, he sends me a text: "you looked cute in your long work socks, btw"
I was in the shower and couldn't reply right away. I said "tx"
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Sandi:
THANK YOU for reminding me R talk is pursuit. I WILL NOT R talk! I WILL NOT R talk!!
When I got in last night, I read your message and wondered what was bugging me & then realized that it is PMS time. I have recognized that PMS makes me needy/clingy and wanting affection/words/attention more than usual.... typically just for a few days. Each and EVERY "R" talk has been around the time of PMS... so, I am trying to be more aware of its arrival.
I agree with you, I don't fully grasp how to apply what I have learned and read. It does make me inconsistent too.
You are very accurate, he has never had to pursue... because I DID IT. Pursuing does take energy and he just doesn't have the energy or time (I have heard him say this too)... Yes, add some lazy in there too. So, when he "feels" he has done something (as above: pizza/tv time). He "feels" he has done his part. Anything more than this is probably like asking for too much.... where do I go from here? talking about it or responding like I do/did, is not helpful or good. Any suggestions?
You are bang on when you say that I MUST be consistent in keeping my mouth shut!! This seems to work for us. I like how you show:
NO R talk from me = his pursuit.
You might be right again when you suggest that all forms of "hard to get" might be coming across as manipulation or game playing (since I am not successful at being this way). However, I do want to learn the skill of it, as I do not want to be an "easy"/available person either.
I do need to learn to put him 2nd. He should not be so high above everything else in my day... and honestly he still is. Its not like I can say to him, "no, sorry.. can't do that because I have work to do"... this is BS... he knows what work is priority and when I can goof off with him on HIS timing for injecting fun during the work day. I have no real excuse/reason to provide him.... HELP!!!????
I do not need to worry, if he is sexually desiring me... I KNOW this much and was super happy back in June when it was recognized and he admitted/declared it. It was what helped put us back on track. An interest & desire to be passionate again.
I agree... the sexting part was wrong wrong wrong. I lost my self respect too. I felt it after I said it. I see how it comes across. It is not nice.
I will DEFINATELY work at applying your math equation.
This is NO time (PMS) for "R" talk anyway...it always led to pushing him away.
Thanks again Sandi!!
is it just me? or is there something not right with him asking us (DD & I) to join his family for Thanksgiving dinner... and yet, just now tell me to meet him there? this is likely because he is trying to squeeze one more work thing in his day that makes sense to his schedule.... but, the message its sends me & my mom aren't quite right. He invited, he should be taking us. He mentioned that this way if my DD wants to leave early she can, and he will take me back.
Also, my DD prefers that she drive as she does not want to show up as a "happy family" when we are not. She calls us fake. She is really against us being there, if we are not confirmed that we are piecing/working on us.
It would have been preferable that I get to comment to him that we would drive on our own (respecting DD), but it got taken away from me... and now I'm feeling out of sorts.
UGGHHHH.... venting (letting it go)
I think you said it best, this is not the time to stress over these things. Wait till the PMS is over.
It may be my assumption, but I look at your stitch as you wanting o start over with a new self respect as well as him doing the things to show that he values you, as well. I am wondering if you missed that period of time in your R with him where his actions showed how much he valued you in his life. So when he says or does something that clearly shows that he takes you for granted......or has you way down the list of his priorities, it really stings a lot. So you struggle between wanting him to respect and pursue......and dealing with your attraction to him and wanting back your family life/home.
Instead of trying to manipulate him into doing things the way you want........you either have to accept it as is or refuse it. There is another direction you might take. Simply tell him (without going into a R talk) that you prefer he handles it differently. For example, why not just tell him, "I would prefer you drive me to your folks on Thanksgiving, and to take me home later". That cuts out you guessing about his reasons behind it, and cuts out you doing something out of reaction. If he ask what difference it makes, just tell him it would make you happy if he would show this
consideration to you as his guest. Do NOT get off into R talk. Do not start talking about him valuing you etc. do NOT justify your reasons. Leave it there on topic. You want him to take you to his family as his invited guest. Period. A simple yes or no from him is all it takes. If he says he can't, you can still go......just don't play games. You are plainly telling him what you prefer. Try this formula in smaller scaled issues the next few weeks. See how it works for you.
Saying what you want = takes away the guessing games
The men I know do not like games women play. MM, we females are often too complex and men don't get it.......even though we can't understand why they don't.
Sometimes we have to spell it out for them. May take some of the romance out of it for us, but we stand a better chance in getting it. And frankly, I think it works much better to deal with these small issues as they come, instead of letting things build and then having a huge R talk where we throw everything into the mix.
Experiment with this one thing and just see how it goes.
Sanding, that's a great way of changing things up.
It cuts the whole negotiation stage right out, which is where things used to go par shaped with my h, although he also just wanted it his way as it was very easy.
Wait a tick, Sandi. You're saying that communicating to somebody vs. having them read your mind is hard to understand?
I would say it won't take the romance out of it. It'll be something you communicate and over time, he'll remember.
Complicated? Really? Women are complicated? I hadn't noticed..(but I do hear the same from women about men; makes one pause and wonder about humans
)
<shrug> People are people. They want what they want and hear things the way they hear them. Is it up to the communicator or the communicatee to understand the message? One to ponder..
AJ
Hi Sandi..
As it turns out, unfortunately I was unable to read your message BEFORE he came to get us. However, I was able to do pretty much what you suggested: I called him & told him that I would prefer that since he asked us to go, that I prefer he come & get us. He expressed he was a little annoyed as he was already running late. I told him that I was already in town & he could meet us at work. He was content with that. He came to get us.
The family Thanksgiving was very nice. Both DD & I were lovingly welcomed by all. However, things between Xbf & I seemed a bit strained. He seemed to be displaced & was pacing before sitting on the couch beside me (the only available spot). When he finally did. He offered some of his beer to me. I spent most of my time interacting with all the other family members. I didn't spend much time focused on him, at all. We barely spoke much. At one point the paparazzi came out & our little family became the focus... (I think he was a bit uncomfy with that, but he smiled & put his arm across the back of the couch). At one point, we seemed to have a moment where everyone else was in a diff room & we were alone briefly. He was viewing some photos on his phone & wanted to show me one. I then showed him a few of mine. I was longing for some affection/attention, and leaned in and kissed him, he responded. We were then called for dinner. To my surprise, I was told that I would be seated at the kids table, with his cousin & the younger group. THIS [censored] (as usual)... no one wants to sit at the kids table. LOL... I didn't make a big deal & enjoyed myself at the kids table. Good convo's.
Looking back, I think its odd that I was seated there. Guess who was seated beside him???.... his mother!
After dessert, I excused myself from the kids table as a few others were mingling in the kitchen. I seated myself at the adult table beside his dad. He wasn't even in the room at this time. His dad and I seemed to connect well again and had lots to say & laugh about. At one point, we were discussing camera/cell phones and his difficulty using them. My Xbf sends him a recent photo of my DD & I.
We seemed to linger on much later than most of the other guests, taking our visit into the basement. His Dad seemed to really be enjoying himself having all the company in his home. I think Xbf was trying to indulge longer for the sake of his parents reconnection too.
At the end of the evening, we said our goodbye's to his Dad and he drove us along with his mother (front seat due to her foot injury) back to our car in town. He offered for us to take some left over pie. He was then going to go check on our business property before heading home.
Once back at my parents he sends a text:
All is well. Hope you both had a good time
I replied: We did. Tx. Hope you did too.
I dunno... I kind of feel he was trying to please my DD & I by inviting us, knowing that we miss his family. Also, that he was trying to please his Mom & Dad, by going. Like I said, we barely spoke & he didn't sit with me at the table.... is it me, or is this odd?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BANG ON!! ... "It may be my assumption, but I look at your stitch as you wanting to start over with a new self respect as well as him doing the things to show that he values you, as well. I am wondering if you missed that period of time in your R with him where his actions showed how much he valued you in his life
not missed it, it was just so long ago and our dynamics changed. So when he says or does something that clearly shows that he takes you for granted......or has you way down the list of his priorities
this is what happened, business took over, it really stings a lot. So you struggle between wanting him to respect and pursue......and dealing with your attraction to him and wanting back your family life/home."
As you can see Sandi... I do struggle with him taking me for granted & where he places me in his priorities...... Any ideas as to how I can balance all what I want & get what I need? I don't want to fall back into the same relationship again.
THANKS!!
THIS [censored] (as usual)... no one wants to sit at the kids table. LOL... I didn't make a big deal & enjoyed myself at the kids table. Good convo's.
Wow, you handled it quite well, I think. I don't know that I could have been as gracious....since you were a guest after all. Although, you might look at it as they did not see you as a "guest" but still part of the family. (Why didn't they put your DD at the kids table?) Oh well, doesn't matter now.
As you can see Sandi... I do struggle with him taking me for granted & where he places me in his priorities...... Any ideas as to how I can balance all what I want & get what I need? I don't want to fall back into the same relationship again.
As much as we women do not want to have to spell it out for our men, I think that is exactly what you will need to do......in order for him to do differently. You asked for what you wanted this time (him carrying you to the dinner) and he did it. I'm glad his attitude wasn't sour about it.
Another thing I think I have learned where the MIL's fall on the priority list (which is usually ahead of us) is that some men look at it as to who will give them less grief over something. So, maybe that is true in other cases with other people involved? IDK, we can ask the guys here. I think for the most part, either gender can take the other one for granted due to laziness, bad habit, inconsideration, etc. I really wonder if it crosses the mind of some H's that they are taking the W or GF for granted in their actions.
That's all I know to do, MM. Take the small stuff as it comes and don't make big issues out of them. I think I can almost guarantee it won't be as big a deal to him as it is you. So, just spell it out, just object lessons or pictures.....you know, whatever it takes to get through to him.
I'm proud of you handling things like you did.
Just thought of something to add. When or if you
do have to spell it out, I think he would be more receptive of you telling him it makes you feel better when he does x,y, and z; rather than making it sound as if he is at fault anywhere. (We will know...
)
I know you want
him to feel the respect for you, etc., and I think he might after he puts it into action, IDK. I just believe it's important how you present it. Does that make sense? Like you did when you asked him to drive you to the family dinner. You didn't make a big deal out of it, and he did what you wanted.
Hi Sandi,
OK... will try that approach.
Fyi, DD sat at the kids table with me and 2 other moms.
How would you deal with this (below) using above approach?
Today, he texted and asked for my help down at the shop. I decided earlier that I was going to take my parents for a country drive & to a market. So to follow through with my plans, I left him frustrated with a project (not at me). I felt guilty but wasn't going to cancel on my parents yet again. I always do that. I mentioned that I would call to check in on him to see if he needed help when I got back. He did not motion to kiss me or to make gestures of acknowledgement...
The country market was closing, so this trip did not prove to be fruitful. When I returned, I called him from McD's asking if he wanted a coffee. He replied "yes, please". We drank the coffee, he brought out his cookies. He had found an old dresser and inside it were interesting brass handles/hardware that he knew I would like. He went back to work on our vehicles, he took a bit more of my help & then it began to rain. He was anxious to take the one vehicle back to his home shop to fix it outside of the rain. He jumped in his van and said "ok, Ive got a, b & c to still do, so I guess this is it?" I said "sure" and he immediately drove away. Again, no kisses or form of touch or affection. I was annoyed because I was wanting "time" more time together or at least for him to want/& ask. So, I called him immediately and asked "was I supposed to follow you back to the house to finish working?" He said "no, I can handle the rest on my own & to carry on" and that we need to figure out our bid for later or tomorrow morning..... so, I may get a text in a little while.
UGGHHHHHHH!! Carry on? Really... what is that? It feels like dismissal and rejection.
Is he suddenly feeling that we are spending too much time together & HE can determine when/how much time we create for ? or is it that he was truly preoccupied and busy with his own agenda? either way... I don't like the dismissal.
I really hope I'm done with PMS soon. I want reassurance & I don't feel I am getting it.
and then to add...
I finally caved in and texted him about the work thing/bidding. We were in discussion about what we should bid on our next purchase. I gave him my reasons and he got his back up & then stated "bid what you want"... his last words at 10:14 pm.
I wrote back:
"don't say that"
"bid what you want"
" our last purchase of similar was $X, but I am fine with your bid choice"
"why are you upset all of a sudden? I'm just reviewing our previous bids"
>>>>>>>>> no replies.
I know he will say that he went to bed after his last response. But, thats BS!
This leaves me normally to fret all night about should I bid, or will he? Worried that If I place a bid, then it won't be what he expected & if I don't bid, he will be mad....I am venting here so that I won't fret ALL night.
I don't think I should bid... its not right that he did that to me.
I don't think this is "trying to get along"...
What is a normal dignified response to give tomorrow morning? I am angered that he leaves me hanging. Shouldn't he be concerned that he p!ssed me off now too?
The country market was closing, so this trip did not prove to be fruitful. When I returned, I called him from McD's asking if he wanted a coffee. He replied "yes, please". We drank the coffee, he brought out his cookies. He had found an old dresser and inside it were interesting brass handles/hardware that he knew I would like. He went back to work on our vehicles, he took a bit more of my help & then it began to rain. He was anxious to take the one vehicle back to his home shop to fix it outside of the rain. He jumped in his van and said "ok, Ive got a, b & c to still do, so I guess this is it?" I said "sure" and he immediately drove away. Again, no kisses or form of touch or affection. I was annoyed because I was wanting "time" more time together or at least for him to want/& ask. So, I called him immediately and asked "was I supposed to follow you back to the house to finish working?" He said "no, I can handle the rest on my own & to carry on" and that we need to figure out our bid for later or tomorrow morning..... so, I may get a text in a little while.
UGGHHHHHHH!! Carry on? Really... what is that? It feels like dismissal and rejection.
To me, "carry on" means to continue what I was doing before interrupted. I personally do not see a rejection or dismissal in his choice of words, but of course I wasn't there to observe the attitude in which it was said.
MM, this time of the month probably has you more sensitive to him, don't you think? Your feelings may tend to get hurt easier, you may feel more vulnerable, and you may have an emotional need for his attention and affection more at this time. So, keep ithat in mind. I won't blame everything on PMS, just saying it may intensify your feelings.
I finally caved in and texted him about the work thing/bidding. We were in discussion about what we should bid on our next purchase. I gave him my reasons and he got his back up & then stated "bid what you want"... his last words at 10:14 pm.
I wrote back:
"don't say that"
"bid what you want"
" our last purchase of similar was $X, but I am fine with your bid choice"
"why are you upset all of a sudden? I'm just reviewing our previous bids"
Maybe you should pick a good time to suggest late hours at the end of the day is not the time to discuss business. To me, it appears he was tired physically......and perhaps worn down mentally. You said earlier he was anxious/frustrated, so the stress of the day could have caught up with him. That could have been what was behind any sound of rudeness or bluntness. Again, not knowing his tone in which he said this, I am speculating. Since he did not reply to your text, it implies to me that he was clearly through talking for the night. I see him as being the type that when he's through.....he's through, and any further discussion from you is "pressure" to him. May be his way of shutting you up....IDK.
B/c of the complexity of this R, it seems to be impossible to separate your business R from your personal R with each other. As I recall, you tried that in the past and it didn't work for you. With that said, you may want to pick a time (not when he is stressed or you have PMS) to approach the topic of ground rules.
Simply tell him that in order to keep a good working R, it would help "you" if you had some ground rules in place. Be honest and tell him that due to the complex situation, you often times have problems distinguishing between his business side and his personal one.
This way, you are not necessarily blaming him, but it is something he can do to help "you". Remember: saying what you want = takes away guessing games. And, you do a lot of guessing about his actions.
I don't think I should bid... its not right that he did that to me.
I don't think this is "trying to get along"...
I really believe this boils down to the differences in the two styles of communication of you and BF. Nevertheless, to prevent it from growing into a monster, I would suggest you deal with it head on. Remember, don't make it sound as if you are pointing out all his faults, but rather, what he can do to help you.
When the time is right this morning, tell him you do not feel comfortable making any bid without his full support. Having his agreement/support is more important to you. This bid is certainly not worth the two of you not "getting along". (See if he offers any comments at that point.). Then approach the subject of how the conversation ended last night by tellin him that you wish you didn't sweat the small stuff.....but you do. He could help you a lot if he would not end calls abruptly. And......I believe I would just tell him that you have a difficult time not taking some business discussions more personally than you should b/c of the personal connection between the two of you. Tell him that abruptly ending calls is like leaving you with no closure to the discussion. Tell him that you would appreciate him telling you that he needs to go in a couplenof minutes to indicate the call is coming to an end. That way, he can give you a few more seconds to wrap up the discussion, and that will help
you have closure......and not take things so personal. Ask him if he will do this for you.
Now MM, I am not gifted in this sort of thing. However, I hope you can get the main points and idea here. I believe he may be more receptive if he doesn't feel under attack and that it is you that needs this from him. That way, you can get past it, hopefully get what you want/need, and it won't continue to bother you.
TX Sandi...
last night, it bugged me ... so, I placed a bid to which I felt comfortable with. It was not as high as he would have wanted me to go, but he did say "bid what I want" after all...
I placed the bid because this way I took it upon myself to do what I was comfortable with and wouldn't have had to deal with him if I didn't bid. However, I was sure to not be happy with him in the morning.
The bid was accepted.
This morning he texts:
"Morning
Wasn't upset"
I text back:
"then why did you leave our discussion? I feel that "bid what you want" and dropping convo mid discussion aren't "lets get along" ways.
He replied:
"fell asleep
guess a
would have helped"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandi... this is a lie... He does NOT just drop off like that to sleep.
What do I say next?
Now he is calling me... I am ignoring it.
Do I ignore the fact that he is now lying? Lying is dismissing what he did!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are correct. This time of the month has me sensitive!! And it does have my feelings more intense. Keeping this in mind!
We have somewhat formed "business hours" however bidding is something that we need to be available to 24/7. This doesn't happen all the time... but, we still need to be available to discuss/agree before bidding.
I agree.. when HE feels he is done, then he is done... and the way he goes about it, comes across as dismissal. I don't like it. I would not do that to him. I don't think thats the way you treat someone you care about. I don't want to be treated this way.
I could suggest ground rules... but not sure what they should be based on the nature and flexibility of our industry and the desire to make money & get rid of our inventory to downsize.
I do not want this to turn into a monster... I will find a way to briefly mention how I am not comfy bidding without his support. That it is not worth us not getting along. Then I will pause. Then let him know that ending the call abruptly is like leaving me with no closure.
Do I not approach this on a personal level too? ending calls abruptly left me hurt/discouraged.
Read Sandi's post on your thread several times. Then...re read them.
First, let's back up to this part of your post:
Now he is calling me... I am ignoring it.
Can you tell me why you are ignoring his calls? Just as you know his routines well enough to believe he didn't just drop off to sleep, he also knows you. You don't want your actions to resemble game playing to him.
Do I ignore the fact that he is now lying? Lying is dismissing what he did!
Well, since you can't control what he does, and since you are not his mother.....I would not bring it up. It might be a little white lie that keeps him from saying, "I just wanted you to shut up!"
Today is a new day and he is contacting you. If you have no hidden cameras in his house that proves he is lying, I say let it ride.
I agree.. when HE feels he is done, then he is done... and the way he goes about it, comes across as dismissal. I don't like it. I would not do that to him. I don't think thats the way you treat someone you care about. I don't want to be treated this way.
I don't blame you. Neither would I like it.
You could suggest a compromise. If he will tell you he has to end the call in a couple of minutes.....and allow you time to wrap it up, then you won't send text messages immediately following the phone discussion. That way, both of you give & take a little.
Do I not approach this on a personal level too? ending calls abruptly left me hurt/discouraged.
If it were me, I would try what I suggested above.....this time. Again, emphasize how you are the type of person who needs to feel they have exhausted some subjects and if the calls ends abruptly, it is very difficult for you to deal with on several levels (emotionally, professionally, etc.) I wouldn't specify "hurt/discouraged" at this time. But if it continues, then you may have to be more descriptive.
But MM.......if he tries to honor this by compromising, you will have your part to fulfill. (No bugging him with more texting "after" the conversation has ended.) He could very well feel that as pressure, smothering, nagging.......who knows what? I have noticed that he is like you said.....when he's through he is ready for it to stop. So I think you hurt yourself when you text him after the call ends.
I wonder if that is why you have such a strong need to "clarify" yourself after having a discussion. You struggle with
closure on the discussion until you think all possible avenues have been exhausted? If so, it may be tough on him to be around you...at times, since he has a different personality. If you could learn to discipline yourself in this area, it might just prove to be a very positive outcome in your personal connection with him.
well, that didn't go as well as I would have liked it.
I was going to keep my mouth shut and not say anything... maybe I should have.
I gently approached the subject when he brought up the fact that our bid won. I started with the fact that I was not comfy with bidding without his support. He got defensive right away and told me I should bid without his consent as he was truly not invested in this purchase & fell asleep. I told him I was left hanging and thought we should discuss a rule on this and that abrupt discussions are not conducive to "getting along". He pointed out that my DD and I do it to him, all the time. I know she does, but I don't...He insisted he fell asleep and that is why the convo ended abruptly. That there is no rule when you fall asleep.
I don't believe him but did not say so... my face may have and he was insistent on insisting that I was making a big deal of it all. I was quiet, I didn't know what else to say or how to respond.
He asked if we were done? I nodded and he was rushing to get out the door.
I was going to leave it there, but one more comment from me and he interrupts with "I thought you were done with this". My comment was that I could have not mentioned anything at all but thought it was better to tell him so that we could have a rule in place (re:bidding), and that if he has an issue/solution that wouldn't he bring it up to me? Again, he insisted that he was sleeping, there is no rule & that this will happen again because I can bid without him. If it was an issue for him and he wanted to bid much more, then we would discuss it ... if need be.
So.... I guess that is the new rule.
But, we both left frustrated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for chiming in Eric... I am just reviewing your post now.
Thanks Sandi.... I wonder if there is anything to say now? or leave it alone (based on clarifying/closure comments). My guess is leave it be now. I just want us back to our happy place... how do we get there?
Oh I took too long replying and I think our posts nearly passed each other in cyber space. I hope you will still read what I sent a minute ago.
I was going to leave it there, but one more comment from me and he interrupts with "I thought you were done with this".
That pretty much backs up what I said in my last post. It
does bug him to think the discussion is closed and then you bring it up
again. Clearly, this needs to be a goal for you, Magic. Don't you think? You can use us to hash it out, if needed, to get it out of your system a little....until you can get control and discipline over it. I don't see this as being a piece of cake for you. But I do see it as rewarding, if you conquer it.
My comment was that I could have not mentioned anything at all but thought it was better to tell him so that we could have a rule in place (re:bidding), and that if he has an issue/solution that wouldn't he bring it up to me?
Maybe the next goal would be to let go of your bulldog grip in these discussions. He already was irritated at you, right? He clearly did not wish to hash it out (for whatever reasons) and he was trying to leave (rushing to get out the door). So I would say your timing was off. When you see these warnings.....take care that you do not keep chewing on it.
Now, when the two of you are able to have a nice, quite, time alone (maybe by the pool or wherever) and he is relaxed, try to approach the subject of this issue differently. Do not make it about him falling asleep and ending the call. You lose the whole point by throwing that little issue into this. Make it about the two of you learning to find a solution or compromise with the issue of your need to exhaust topics vs his need to end you talking abruptly. And, I hate to say it, but I have to believe the way he's doing this is more about him ending you talking, rather than closing the topic. Think about it.
These very things can work like a computer worm in a R. It just slowing corrupts the good parts.
My guess is leave it be now. I just want us back to our happy place... how do we get there?
It has been my experience (b/c my H is not a talker and I am) that if I simply shut up about it and act as if I am okay, then we do get back to the happy place. You see, I am the one who wants to work everything out by talking. He doesn't. It was hard for me to learn how to
not talk as a solution to everything. But I have to admit I could actually see myself hurting the situation by not shutting down my mouth. My mouth was pushing him away. Sorry to say, but I think you push your BF away the same way.
Relentless topic discussion = pushing him away
Now ask yourself, what is more important to you. Having him listen to
all you want to say.......or having a closer relationship with him?
yes Sandi... you are accurate!!
Yes..it does bug him to think the discussion is closed and I bring it up again. Clearly a GOAL I need to work harder on. I have changed my bulldog ways, but clearly not enough. I still do feel the need to clarify because I don't get closure... See how our last disagreement went? Without final agreement on bidding policy.
Good call that when I see these warnings to not continue to chew it out... very very good!!
What happens next is maybe what I should work on... I never seem to bring it up again. Either because it gets forgotten or I can't be bothered or now due to fear. Fear of rehashing this again. Fear of him labelling it my bulldog ways. Let it go!
Like you, I am the one who wants to work everything out by talking! YES... Me me me too!!! Admittingly, this is not a solution to everything....clearly. As above, I am learning how to not talk as a solution. So, unsure whether to bring this up again another day or not. I think his excuse of sleeping ends that discussion for him. Maybe another time... off topic, I can bring up learning to find solutions and compromises...like you suggest.
I agree.. I believe my mouth has hurt our situations in the past... so much!!! I fear having any disagreement with him now too. I agree when I do try to talk it out, it pushes him away. I do not want to be in a rel'p with him where I cannot discuss issues and that I do not stand up for myself at all... I fear this will happen. So, I want to be sure to say 'something' at times, even if its not quite right. We both need instructions on how to disagree and find solutions. I wish he would go to counselling with me.
I wish I wasn't PMS... now I am teary.
BTW... I like your math equations... they are clear & I am able to resonate very well with them!!!
Thanks so much!!
I think we are back to happy place now, although I realize I am emotional so will keep my distance today.
Okay, I want to ask some questions.
I still do feel the need to clarify because I don't get closure... See how our last disagreement went? Without final agreement on bidding policy.
Do you see him agreeing with you as being closure? I am asking if agreement = closure. If the two of you hash out something and he refuses to agree 100%, do you feel as though you need to express you viewpoint more clearly in order for him to finally see where you are right?
Second question: Are you pretty much this way with everyone, or is with mainly just him? in other words, have you always been this way as long as you remember, or has this developed since knowing him?
If he does not agree with your viewpoint, do you feel it is a rejection of
you by him? Are you able to hear an opinion stated and separate/isolate it so that it does not feel that it is a
personal attack or rejection? In other words, can you separate his view point from being a personal aim at you? An example of this is when you were discussing you viewpoint of the business bids and he had a different VP. You felt rejected. Why? How were you tying yourself and the bid into being the same? Are you saying that Disagreement = Rejection? Can you have one in business and not in personal life? His Business Disagreement = Business Rejection? Yet, he told you to bid whatever you wanted. So it must mean that Business Disagreement = Business Opinion. What do you think?
I realize people can drag inappropiate wording into their opinions and
that makes it personal. Like, "That is the most stupid idea I've ever heard!". Now if he words his opinions in that type manner, then it would be difficult not to take it personally. I hope you will enlighten us more.
We need to figure out a solution that will help you to not bring up this topic with him.........while we work on other solutions, too. Maybe someone will offer a great solution to help with learning about timing. "How to work the mouth......all in good timing!"
Good questions Sandi~~ more headwork/heartwork homework .... LOVE IT!!
1) initially when I read if him agreeing with me = closure. I thought nope. Then I read the rest of your question... I do feel often the need to express myself or viewpoint further in order to see my point (not necessarily if I am right) ...... Hmmmmm
2) Yes, I am pretty much this way with others.... but, I think I became this way/developed since him..... again, hmmmmm
Since this site, I have come to realize that it comes across as argumentative... hmmmmm, grrrrrrr!
3) If he does not agree (or someone else), I do not feel its is a rejection of me. I love to hear the other opinions and do not feel its a personal attack or rejection ..... thank god!
When we were discussing the bid, I only felt rejection when he stopped communicating. Feeling rejected had nothing to do with the task, it was just a symptom of how the convo ended.
No... I would not say that disagreement = rejection in either business or personal.
Unofficially if/when he says inappropriate hurtful wording into his opinions, I have taken it personally (for about 10 mins) and then I am able to fluff it off & get past the hurtful stuff. However, since we have not argued like that in a very long time... I wonder what I would do/how I would feel about that now. I wonder if I would allow it to hit me personally..... hmmmm
OH.. I won't bring it up... we are past this now. I am not one who likes to fight and fight until the bitter end after the fact. I typically am that way while "IN" the moment. An old behaviour of mine is to not harbour feelings or resentment. Hell, I even forget that I was angry 15 mins later. I am an easy one to want to repair & get back to harmony & a loving state.
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Today at work he brings up an idea for an overnight getaway disguised as work. I am coming to realize that he does this as a way that we can write it off as a business expense. There is no REAL need for us to do this overnight work thing, we typically do this online. Knowing him, Its about escape, possible nice dinner opportunity, and a hotel experience together.... while being cheap. I think its also a cop out/lazy way of getting me away without being committed or inappropriate in the minds of others (friends/family), INCLUDING me!
I did not respond with a yes or no. Within a short while he asks me if I have looked further into the work event that would support his suggestion for the overnight... I say "no" and proceed to do so. Then he immediately proceeds his comments with expectation that I am saying Yes.... grrrr.
I am conflicted.... I want to go... I need a mini getaway too (work or fun). I want to know if this is a sex-escape, a romantic getaway with intent of reconnection or a work event.....GRRRRRR
I would love some suggestions on how to value myself and have an appropriate attitude (je ne sais quoi) and/or possible discussion or not... on this matter... (his lack of investment/commitment, calling it "work")
Conflicts:
If I "talk" and discuss the fact that I am not comfortable going without knowing what it means to him... = pressure to him
If I go and don't say something... I am too easy/available to his whims.
If I go... I am subject to sex (is this all he wants or is it more towards reconnection?)
Just before leaving work for the evening, I asked if he was going to enjoy some TV this evening, it gets turned around and he jokingly makes a sex-related comment & suggests that he is available and feel free for me to jump him anytime. I commented back along the lines that he could take that attitude/opportunity to "try" it on me too... (its not MY JOB to do the pursuit... 180). We both leaned into a kiss goodbye.
When I got out of my women's meeting this evening, it was so warm and nice out... I immediately wanted to call or text Xbf to share the night... (wishing we were at that point, too bad its considered pursuit on my part)... sad.
Hey Sandi... where did you go? More advice please..... others are welcome to chime in too!!
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Today:
He asked me again if I wanted to go on Friday to work thing. I'm sure he could sense my apprehension. I have not jumped at ANY offer , because of his lazy or hidden ways. He was making it seem very "work like" and not about fun for us. I asked if we could talk for a moment and asked if this event was about "work" or ???. When I asked him about it, he was uptight & did not want to label it. Do I want to go or not? I said "no" when asked like that. He started carrying on with work type stuff, coming and going from the room. I commented that I thought that we were talking, and he told me that I could follow him as he has things to do. (This is "chasing" while he works and I refuse to do this (old behaviour)... but, I did). He wants to know why I need to define everything. I said that because I have come to realize that I am a person who needs closure and when I don't understand things, I keep trying to clarify. I said its not like he is making it seem like its about wanting time with me... He said, "thats obvious as we could be making this purchase online & not going for dinner & an evening out/over night" I said "no, obvious is when its not work related and its an offer for bed & breakfast stay, etc".
He does NOT want to commit to ANYTHING here. I want reassurances of his efforts towards R, how can I get this? His apprehension is scaring me. If he cannot commit, then neither will I!! <<<<< this makes me ANGRY!!
I told him that when he isn't obvious and clear then I get turned off and pull back. That if he has reservations, then that makes me have them too. He said he doesn't have reservations, that he is just going to go and have fun... Im making a big deal about it. That guys are like this. I told him that I don't want to assume & have expectations that it is better to be clear.
He needs to know that I do have reservations about HIM... that I am not so assured and available just because he offers. I am not sure how to show/display that. He just assumes everything and I naturally fall into play.... he has ALL control!
He also mentioned that its a good test before we go to Miami.
He is testing me.. he has the control. What about my testing him? He needs to know that he is failing my test if he cannot commit to even simple things like reassuring me.
just off the phone with a woman from my group.... she suggests sending a message that is clear:
"I've been thinking, spending an overnight with you will provide us BOTH the opportunity to test and see how things go."
or "now that you have cleared things up, I am looking forward to our get away. This will provide us both the opportunity to test & see how things go"
or something along those lines.... suggestions?
Mm quit following this man around like a puppy begging for attention. I am harsh with u because I was you and it's sickening. If you really want those things u just mentioned then drop his butt like a hot potato......stop asking questions, stop begging for attention and Get a Life Totally witnout him. Stop letting fear hold u back. If u do this, u will really see who he is and where u stand on his list of priorities. Men r hunters and u hon r def not a challenge. U want to be but u don't listen......so therefore u will continue to go round and round with him. Next yr. same time same place I will know
where to find u. Sry just the way it is.
Hi Sunshine...Tx for your input.
Yep... I did follow him around like a puppy trying to finish our convo. He used to ask me to do that before & I didn't like doing it back then either. I wish I had said, that I would prefer to finish the convo when he has time to talk.
I see your point (& a few others) who agree with you to Drop his butt, etc....I see how that could possibly work. However, I am not prepared to do that at this time, as I did agree to "seeing how it goes" (on his terms). I would like to try this through to Christmas.
Yes, men are hunters. I do not feel that the approach above is the ONLY way to present him a challenge... there MUST be ways to do this while "seeing how things go".
I want to be a challenge.... are there any other ways on my terms? my comfort?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am also thinking of NOT saying anything about his "testing". Maybe by saying nothing possibly leaves him questioning the unknown. Me constantly shoving my feelings in his face, might also add to his "pressure", and I appear weak. He won't take my comment seriously and dismiss/disregard.... so whats the point. However, in the background I will be testing him too. I don't need to broadcast it.
So, if/when he asks again today... I guess I will just say "yep, I guess we can see how it goes".... not a big long story to go with it!
well, thats that, for now.
He called & asked again... I said what I said above, but I wish I had said it with pause/reservation... as it would have had better impact. He seemed happy that I said what I did.... He probably only heard yes..... not much I can do now.
MM,
You have gotten a lot of really good and honest feedback from some very smart folks. It seems to me like you want your situation to magically change without having to do any of the (difficult) stuff to make it change.
I don't know you at all, but I have read through your thread. And I wanted to tell you, as kindly but as honestly as possible, that your approach to your R comes across as very immature-- it reminds me of myself in high school.
You will be so much better off if you start spending time looking inward, figuring out who you are, what you want, establishing a life and healthy relationships outside of this man.
It's hard to see you go around in circles, especially when there have been so many people looking out for you and trying to help.
Have you spoken to a DB coach? Are you in IC?
I would urge you to explore why you are so willing to let yourself be strung along by this man, who's maybe not so evil, but doesn't seem to cherish you in the slightest.
Your thread is tough to read. I feel for you, I really do. I wish you would value yourself more.
Respectfully,
Claire
Hi Claire.. tx for your comments.
Yes.. I have gotten a lot of good feedback. I do want my situation to change, and it has...it has gotten him back, just not fully...yet I am and have been doing the stuff to make things change & it has and so has he.
Some others have the opinion that I am missing a lot of the magic that happens because I am analyzing too much. To just enjoy the moments without thinking where it will lead.
I hold Matt's opinion in my head and do my best to act on this: " I want him in my life IF he wants the same thing that I do... but, at the same time if he is not willing to give me what I need, I will have no problem going elsewhere for it."
I agree somewhat in your opinion about cherishing me... he does, just to a point. This is what I want to change. <<< I realize it comes from me valuing myself more.
Valuing myself more is a discipline action that I can't seem to maintain. I get wishy washy as my heart tells me to value my family more... UGH... I will get back on track.
I will go & enjoy myself on this overnight adventure. However, I will hold myself in a position of reservation... not be so easy.
Well I can see how you would not feel very special with the way he presents this "offer". To be very blunt, he sounds like he just wants to get laid. Then when it's time to return to work, everything will resume back to how it's been......and that will cause more emotional frustration for you. I mean, the least he could do is to make some sort of reference to having time for romance.....but he steers clear of it. As usual, he makes it appear as if you are the accessories that come with the job.
Does he need to make a commitment in order to spend a weekend with you? I suppose that is up to you. From the way I read your post, he was uncomfortable just admitting it would be a romantic time for the two of you. I simply don't get it, unless he is afraid you will take it and run with it. He's not ready for that much yet.
I think his way of handling it makes you feel kind of cheap, maybe. You want him to man-up and tell you he wants you, instead of this beating around the bush about it. You may be able to tell he wants you....but a girl just likes to be told sometimes.
But here's the thing, MM. I don't think he's the kind of guy you can try to force him into anything he doesn't want right then. You may wish you could put enough pressure on him that he would at least make you feel you were valuable enough that he won't let a "label" scare him down. I mean, seriously! I believe if you told him "no", he would say "Okay then, cheers!" and be gone on his own. Now, it may cause him to consider that MM has really changed and he needs to get a different game plan, IDK.
I can't really tell you what to do b/c you need to make the decision. If it were
me, I would probably tell him, "Thanks for the offer, but I have decided to not tag along on trips with
any man who wants to use me in his private times as a
tax write off. I find it rather insulting if he can't value
me enough to label it what it is, at least to my face. And if this is the case with you.....then you have my answer". But, MM, that's just me and my personality.
I am crazy enough to believe that if you hold out for what you want, he will eventually realize you are not going to settle for his measly crumbs. But if you decide to go this route, then you don't need to play anymore footsie games with him. He may think after the episode in the bedroom the last time, this is the next step. An overnight hide-away that he can count off as a business expense.
Who wants to be some man's business expense?
He is not clear b/c he doesn't want you to make more out it. He wants to get laid without a commitment of something more. I think men have been like that since Adam (who really didn't have a say about it.....
)
If it were me, I would probably tell him, "Thanks for the offer, but I have decided to not tag along on trips with any man who wants to use me in his private times as a tax write off. I find it rather insulting if he can't value me enough to label it what it is, at least to my face. And if this is the case with you.....then you have my answer". But, MM, that's just me and my personality.
BINGO! Me? I would say/do the same thing as Sandi would do if it were her. That said, as I mentioned to you I think that maybe if I change my approach it would help you achieve what I believe is your primary goal (no matter what the cost), which is to get him back.
So......
MM, if you want to feel close to him, if you want him to feel validated. Then go. All you can do IMO, right now is to allow him to dictate all of the shots. That is...unless you prefer to keep playing the game of...what do I do if he does X, what do I say if he does Y.
So why not just go with him. Have a good time. Maybe...just maybe....tomorrow....or next week....or next year....or in 5 years...he will realize what he has (not sure how he will do that, having never "really" lost you but hey that's just me).
MM,
How much do you value yourself?
Answer that and you will have the answer as to what you should do.
MM,
I think you hold onto these little crumbs he gives you because you are afraid that if you hold out for more, he will walk away. And I think you may be right. He doesn't seem ready to commit to you in a meaningful way, but likes you and the physical relationship enough to keep stringing you along since you allow it.
There are plenty of men in the world who would treat you like gold.
Perhaps you can't totally get him out of your life since you have a business together, but you can certainly have a business-only relationship with him.
I know you said he's trying and he's changed. But you are so focused on what he is or isn't doing with regards to you, and how you should play it so that he does what you want.
That doesn't sound healthy to me.
You want us to see it differently because you want it to BE different. No one wants to admit that something's wrong and they may need to step away.
and no one is saying he's evil.
But he really doesn't seem interested or able to give you what you want, and it seems to cause you a lot of anxiety and pain and self-doubt. You and he just don't seem to be on the same page. And at some point, you get to decide whether you are ok with what he is able to give you. If so, stop agonizing over every interaction. It is what it is right now. If not, pull back.
Honestly I don't think you are really ready to accept this.
Are you in IC?
Thx everyone for your comments.
First of all, I have accepted that he was a cheap LOOOOONG ago. Using business as an opportunity to get away is something that MANY business owners do, and we have not for a few years. He is wanting to take advantage of this again. Neither of us have been on any type of get away since before our BD. I am ok with this part.
Sandi ~ you are correct when you suggested that it did not make me feel special in the way he presented it to me. Apparantly, I am to read between the lines as it was OBVIOUS to him what his designs are. "some" work, nice dinner or casual dinner in our room, hang out, tv time, breakfast & country drive. I can assume "some" sex is implied too. However, getting laid? I dunno. Realistically, he doesn't need to go away for me to do that. He could attempt that here at home, and he has not. We fool around to a point, we take turns pleasuring each other. We have not had full sex. Its like we are both not going there.... for now. Maybe thats a commitment??
No he does not need to make a commitment with me to go away, but I do require some understanding if this was intended to be somewhat romantic. Recall, he has gotten EXTREMELY lazy in this area. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD... yes, he is VERY frightened that I will run with this. He has mentioned this in the past. I know its a genuine fear of his.... PLEASE EXPAND HERE !!! What is the way past this feeling?
I agree... maybe it does make me feel cheap. I agree he needs to man up ALOT and make me feel truly WANTED. Yes, I can tell he does feel that way and right to the point of wanting to be living with me again (sometimes)... but he's chicken! I don't know what I am doing that he still feels like this.
ABSOLUTELY Right on again!!! BINGO... I cannot force him into anything anymore (I think he felt forced in our prev. relationship). Besides, I don't want to force him anymore... I want to know HE wants it all too. This new Xbf, will not be cornered or boxed into ANYTHING he doesn't want to do, he is very clear with that. When I have tried, he says I am wrecking the natural flow of things.
I don't understand what you mean when you say:
"You may wish you could put enough pressure on him that he would at least make you feel you were valuable enough that he won't let a "label" scare him down. I mean, seriously! I believe if you told him "no", he would say "Okay then, cheers!" and be gone on his own. Now, it may cause him to consider that MM has really changed and he needs to get a different game plan, IDK. " <<<<< can you explain again??
As for the tax write off comments... refer to my initial comments. I accept that he is cheap & this is an opportunity for us to get away. Period. He is a non-stop work aholic, always thinking ahead. He is the type of person who would stop at the bank on his way to his own funeral or wedding. His cheap and lazy way to offer a getaway is not suggesting that he does not want some quality time with me... to test & check out before he commits to a Miami business trip....LOL.
I too believe that IF I hold out for what I want, he would give it... eventually. I just can't seem to push it to that point.
As for him getting laid... that is OFF the table!! As mentioned we are not "there" anyway! We would not require a getaway to enable it either..... besides, I am no longer PMS'ing !!! So... thats that! I imagine it will be more of the same fool around, enjoy each others company, but now we can sleep in the same bed for a night bonus.
I AGREE... he is not clear because he does not want me to make more out of it.... but, whats so wrong with clarity & defining what we are? Why is this such an issue for him?
My friend suggested: That I am never going to be happy because I cannot accept taking it step by step and seeing how things go. He is offering what he is offering and I want more, not even considering how he feels at all.....(HMMM). He cannot reassure me if he is not sure himself, thats just him being honest. Lets see where this leads? nothing wrong with that. She thinks his approach is fair considering we have been apart for awhile. If it was a new relationship, new man.. would I want the same reassurances (NO)? She said that if I did, the guy would run for fear of being smothered......she has a point!!
I know he is not a new guy.... but he is scared much like you are in the beginning. We have been apart for a long time. Obviously a reason for the breakup in the first place. We are BOTH rebuilding, he is being cautious. Small steps at a time.
~~~~~~~~
I can see what she is suggesting.... I also see what the posters on the site say too... I do want to value myself MORE. I do not want to accept crumbs. I do want to see his part as baby steps/effort.
ITs a fine line. Tough call.
~~~~~~~~~
I have to run... more to comment later.
Omg.
Then listen to your friend. Take it slow and let him lead. Accept whatever he can give be it crumbs or whatever you want to call it.
Eric... her opinion, is like yours... an opinion.... I didn't say I was following it (although my IC would agree to some of her points... as long as I found a way to value myself).
Like I said, I am going more on the base of how Matt suggested. .... "I want him in my life IF he wants the same thing that I do<<<< and because of feeling like this, I keep the door open...
but, at the same time if he is not willing to give me what I need, I will have no problem going elsewhere for it." <<<< I will come to this decision IF I do not see continual progress from him. At this time, I guess I still see it as progress (pool time, dates, drinks, hang out, dinners, his place, t-giving, offer for getaway) <<< these are things he has done.... without my lead.
I need him to lead! Leading shows me HIS invested interest.
Many of you see this as crumbs, at times... I do too. <<<< for this I THANK YOU!
Eric & others, let me ask... would you agree that I could go... IF... I hold my value, not have expectations, HAVE FUN, do things on MY terms AND reserve myself enough to test him in return.... Recall, I am interviewing him, as well. Fyi, he isn't passing with flying colours yet... I know this!
Eric... "having never really lost me"...you make a valid point... I am scared to test this.. not for his reaction, but for mine. It makes me mad, that it takes losing someone to realize what you have.
Claire... actually, the opposite... you think that I am fearing him walking away for good? not at all! I do feel that if I had enough balls/guts that I could toss him to the curb and within a short time, he would be sooooo sorry. However, I just don't have the strength/will/guts to do that. I don't want to HAVE to do that, to get his response. However, you are ABSOLUTELY right when you state "He doesn't seem ready to commit to you in a meaningful way, but likes you and the physical relationship enough to keep stringing you along since you allow it." ... ugh!
So, with that realized.... I do not want to be strung along... I want control of myself. Therefore I will do things on my terms... words like "we will see & maybe" come out of my mouth more often. & will continue!
This is where it gets fuzzy for me... my terms obviously are wishy washy and I come across as game playing. Yes, I enjoy any and all time with him so it is hard for me to pull back and harder to cut him off. Geez, I'm typically so easy going that I would enjoy organizing his paper clips just to be with him (as long as he was treating me right). So, I have a new list of things that I need to do... social list, activities, time spent with parents, DD, errands, etc.. his name is at the bottom. He needs to not be first anymore. If I am not his priority, then he should not be mine.
Claire... I love how you put the last post. Especially suggesting that other men would treat me like gold (this would be nice, thank you)... your point suggesting that things may not be right & needing to step away could be accurate. This is why I am "seeing how it goes" to ensure I get what I want TOO. I will not commit back to him either until I see him make permanent changes too. He just assumes that I am desperate to get back... I'm sure my responses/reactions show this too. I don't know how to be different, without it appearing as games. If I didn't agree to going away, it would have looked fake from me at this point anyway.
Yes, I have said he is "trying" and is "changing"... he is not changed yet. You are also right, I am still focused on it all too much. Hmmm... still not healthy. I agree we are not on the same page anymore. At some point I will determine if it is enough... at this time, it is what it is (and I am trying to just accept THAT for now)... As you said, if it is not... pull back <<< I do this a little even now. Trying to hold off a bit..(I see myself doing this more within a few months). I am working towards accepting this! Thanks for pointing it out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OH.. tonight he made a comment to our friendly associate that "MM used to like X about him" and I was quick and said "if XBf would work a little harder, he may just impress me again to get X from me". He smirked, impressed with my quick witty comment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, tomorrow morning starts our journey. I will hold the context of VALUING MYSELF, reservation, and FUN (all while interviewing him secretly without putting pressure or a damper on our time out). He better be on his best behaviour!!
"You may wish you could put enough pressure on him that he would at least make you feel you were valuable enough that he won't let a "label" scare him down. I mean, seriously! I believe if you told him "no", he would say "Okay then, cheers!" and be gone on his own. Now, it may cause him to consider that MM has really changed and he needs to get a different game plan, IDK. " <<<<< can you explain again??
I was referring to him asking you why you had to put a label on it. You would prefer he clarify it so that you could find "closure" instead of analyzing it to death.......however, no matter how much you want him to value you......even to the point of you pressuring him into giving this trip a name or category or label......he won't do it. You want him to value you so much that it overcomes any fear he has of labeling a trip or relationship. (Your persistence is the same as pressure to him.). If you tell him you won't go (trying to pressure him into valuing you enough to step up), I think he would rather choose to say "Cheers" and leave without you. He would do it before he would man up and give you a decent answer to your request about how to categorize this overnight trip. He just wants you to agree to going without him having to call it anything. He would do without your company before he satisfied you with a glimmer of hope about the future. He does not want to be hooked.
Hope that explains it better.
Look MM, it doesn't matter how much we want you to keep your dignity and hold out till he cries "uncle", it is what makes you feel right.....happy....and cherished. If this man does it for you, then it is your free choice to do whatever you want. You don't have to do what we want you to do. I think you have grown just enough to want what you deserve.....which is respect. You want the man you love to show you some freaking respect!!! Why does it seem so hard for him to do? Everyone wants to feel they are valuable to the people they love most in the world. It is not too much to expect. Neither should it be compromised......nor sacrificed. Did you hear that, MM? Do not sacrifice your self value for his love.....b/c if he really loves you then he should value you. That is what
love truly is, don't you think? And if it is just his way of loving......then ask the question, "At what price?". How much are you willing to pay for his way of loving? If getting his love costs you your self worth (dignity, value, respect) are you willing to pick up the tab?
MM,
I am totally on board with Sandi:
Look MM, it doesn't matter how much we want you to keep your dignity and hold out till he cries "uncle", it is what makes you feel right.....happy....and cherished. If this man does it for you, then it is your free choice to do whatever you want. You don't have to do what we want you to do
I feel like everyone on your thread has been trying to convince you of something... and you spend a lot of time trying to convince US of something else. But you don't need to convince us. I wonder if you feel that, if you convince us to change our opinions, then it will validate you and your relationship. Like, you ask for suggestions, but instead of agreeing and following the overwhelmingly similar response from everyone who responds, you defend and try to persuade. Because you want it to be ok. I get that.
But it is ok.
I don't think that what you say will do much to change my opinion. But my opinion doesn't matter, does it?
If this R is working for you, if you are comfortable with your choices and actions, then that is what matters.
Good luck to you.
HI Sandi & Claire:
Sandi ~ thank you for your explanation... I do understand it better now. Yes, I would prefer closure so that I could stop analyzing it to death. Even tho I understood what he was doing and what the overnight was to him, I didn't want to assume. I get your point, although he would not have gone... he still would not give me that inch....
He does not want to be hooked....nope, not yet! Why??? Why do the good stuff but not want the label? I don't get this. I know he wants more (eventually). To him, this is us going slow.
I do want his respect.
Claire ~ Im not sure I understand. I feel I agree for the most part & clarify the truth for the other part. I don't fee/think l I am trying to convince anyone of anything...other than more truth. Please point out where I am doing this? Also where I ask for suggestions, I feel I do agree again... please show me? Please also show me where I am not following with the responses?
I have been clear that I intend on "seeing how things go" a little while longer to "see" and allow him the time/space to follow his lead. Throughout this, I will learn to value myself & not accept the crumbs. I am somewhat comfortable... for now. However, I am WATCHING & learning along the way. I will not accept a non-defined relationship for very long.... just long enough to treat it as a "new" relationship and "see" where it goes, naturally.
Thanks again...
~~~ I could really use some direction/advice on how to BE during the next 24 hours on this overnight stay. I want to enjoy myself but I have been putting pressure on myself because of these last few posts. What is the best way to get my control back? ... did I lose it?
If this R is working for you, if you are comfortable with your choices and actions, then that is what matters.
Good luck to you.
This is what I tried telling MM a month ago.
As usual, she didn't listen.
Starsky
Then listen to your friend. Take it slow and let him lead. Accept whatever he can give be it crumbs or whatever you want to call it.
I'm with ya Starsky....
MM, he is what you want..accept him the way he is and just go and try and be happy. No one here can change your bf. No one. Not even you. so why not just go be happy. Life is really to short.
I'm out...peace.
~~~ I could really use some direction/advice on how to BE during the next 24 hours on this overnight stay. I want to enjoy myself but I have been putting pressure on myself because of these last few posts. What is the best way to get my control back? ... did I lose it? [/quote]
MM - you should be yourself. Acting a certain way, modified to the situation is not genuine and will not lead to healthy and happy reunion. What is wrong with being MM?
odd... but, he seems to have clarified his intentions of wanting time away with me and is liking that we are getting along. He has also said that we are sort of in a relationship (bf/gf) and he is open to see where it goes. That he is in it for the possibility of the long haul.
.... although he admits he still fears publicly defining it
Do u keep asking this? I assume u do of he wouldn't say things like that.
Listen to what he is saying. U keep asking and he keeps suficing u. It's the only way to shut u up. Sry but trying to be real with u. Except what he is offering or move on. You r not going to beat him into submission. This is all u get. Who kpnows about later.
All the questions u ask over and over makes me want to scream shut up! I can imagine it does him to.
As a man, it would drive me absolutely batsh*t crazy. It's like nails on a blackboard to most men!!!
Starsky
MM,
Doesn't matter what we think. How do you feel about what he said? (and...was it in response to a question you asked? If so, think about why you asked..)
Are you satisfied with that? How does that change things or not for you?
What are you doing to become the best YOU you can be while you "see how it goes"?
I don't think you ever answered my question of whether you are in IC or not.
I think you need more support than this board is able to offer you. We are not professionals. One to one conversations, in real time, with a trained professional, will help you set clear goals and help you stay on track to meet them.
actually it was his words... he wants a relationship. He also mentioned that he has been working on his actions (and to look at his actions)... He said he still has some changes to still make & that he is working on himself.
I think this would now be considered piecing....however, I am not jumping the gun on this just yet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Claire, I am not in regular IC. I will make an appointment again soon with my IC. To become the best me, I will still need to maintain autonomy & MUST work hard at it. I have disciplines that I must control too.
You asked how I feel about what he said?.... I wasn't really satisfied with what I heard, UNTIL.... he clarified that he has changes to make too & that makes me happy. I am glad he admits it!
I think I answered your question(s)... if not, please clarify.
Starsky ~~ please clarify.. I don't want to drive ANYONE crazy!!
One of the most important principles of DB is to GAL. What are your GAL activities?
Claire,
Have you read any of Magic's other threads? You may want to read them to have a better understanding of what has been transpiring in Magic's world for the last year or so. The questions you are asking Magic are excellent and they have been asked many times on her threads.
Reading her threads may give you more insight into her situation.
Job,
Just browsed back to May. Same ol' stuff. Like, deja-vu. I get it.
MM,
Like I said, I don't actually think we can help you much. Only you can help yourself.
Good luck to you.
claire & everyone.... PLEASE show me what I cannot see.
He is BACK.... this is a good thing. But, even better... is that HE said he needs to make some changes & he is working on it & us.
I am obviously totally oblivious... please be specific as to what I need to do now?
~ I have not forgotten that there is still things to do.
~ I do look at EACH situation/moment & as an opportunity to find a way that values ME!
~ I will not allow him to mistreat me. He is still being interviewed.
~ I am still looking at houses.
~ I still need to go forward on seeking my independence.
~ I still have & have always GAL (friends, dancing, outings)
~ I will still aim to place him lower on my list of things to do. Re-prioritize. DD comes FIRST!
~ OH... and I am re-reading Co-dependent no more
What else am I missing? I am answering honestly... and I don't see whats wrong with my answers... I thought they were good and fair coming from where HE is & has been for almost 2 years. I think its progress... is it not?
MM,
It just seems like your words and actions don't match....and neither do his words and actions.
I think IC can help hold a mirror up to you better than we can.
Glad you are pleased with how things are going. I mean that. That is what matters.
Just popped in to check on your thread and read through it all. Yep things haven't changed.
If he's serious, then he should be willing to go to C with you and commit.
Popping back out again.
claire...
I cannot afford IC.... its $200/hr here.
Would you mind trying one more time to show me? Please be specific.
Bond... I just saw your message. Yes, I agree... He has mentioned that he would do that. I just don't think he is quite there yet. When HE feels like it is something that will help HIM, then I think it would be worth spending the money.
MM,
A lot of people read what you write and respond in a lot of words. They write a lot of good words to you. I get the impression that when you read the words and its not what you want it to say you just see,
"blah blah blah blah blah. Blablah blah blah blah blah.Bla bla blah? Blah bla blah bla. Blahblahblahblahblah."
I think you are just looking for a daddy figure to tell you that you are doing the right thing.
Sorry for being strong worded.
that really frustrates me LT... because it is not true. I do not know what words to write to let the others know how much I appreciate what they say and I look for what they are saying... However, I am at a complete loss as to what is being said now. I see nothing in what has been written lately... What am I Missing???
I have truly appreciated Sandi's math equations.... I understand them.
Also, Eric has shown me specifically a few statements too... (however, when I feel that I am trying to respect myself & not be available, he called it tactics....so not sure how to do what he asks of me)
whats the point in writing blah blah blah... can you not show me specifically? its what I was asking for?
MM,
The blah blah blah was written to get across to you the frustration I sense from many who have written here. What they all seem to see is the same dance your husband does and the same dance in response from you. What they see is lots of words. What they don't read is any actions that indicate a significant change in you are your husband. If you wrote about things or actions or interactions that show a true changes then people might be able to go forward.
ok... thanks for that (clarification),. I am sure many are frustrated... just like I am. It is not intended to ignore... I am asking to understand.
Do you not see my Xbf's action? I do... how can I write it differently. This is the same guy who BD & had nothing AT all to do with me for a very long time.
HE just last night says he wants to be in a relationship & although his way of inviting me overnight was lazy... he did clarify that he wanted time with me & that we are getting along well... and he did announce how HE wants to work on us. <<<< this is HUGE to me.
Do you not see my actions? I have held back from my manipulative/controlling ways to allow him to come forward. <<<<< this is HUGE to me too.
Please give me other examples of what actions/interractions that would be better?... maybe I am just not posting right.
Thanks,
MM,
Look at what you just wrote,
"LAZY..."
To me this looks like deep down it bothers you. If it didn't, then why write that. I believe many see things like this and keep telling you to look more closely at your self. They are asking you to ask yourself is this good enough for me? I don't think deep down it is good enough for you. A lack of strong feeling or commitment coming from your husband is a strong signal that he is probably not ready and you are destine for more heart ache. after all he has put you through is a half hearted approach from him good enough? What you have written indicates a limp response to being with you.
Only you can decide if this is good enough for you and will give you the comfort of a long term continuing relationship.
Thanks for helping LT...
"lazy" was written because its what Sandi labelled it as... so, I was going off the opinion of another. Lazy is due to his ways to offer a proper date or to admit what the overnight/work away meant to him. He did clarify it (that he wanted time away with me), once I told him that it was not obvious to me. Lazy/and what I am learning about and whether its good enough or not, is very new to me. I was in a relationship for 20 years with a person who didn't know how to fully appreciate me (although he did...just didn't admit it often enough) & has recently said (when we went for Keg dinner) that he appreciates me so much more now (this was not a prompted comment but random!). HE is beginning to treat me better & is kinder & nicer to me. He still has a way to go to live up to the standards that others would consider their base line. I am "learning" to have a standard. First, I want to see if his intentions are to pursue me... this seems to be happening (sure, still in such a small way... but I cannot expect grand gestures just yet).... I am happy for a "start"... I will want and seek bigger ... later as we progress on. I did not see it as a half-hearted approach, so I will think on this one... maybe it is.... hmmm
I do believe (ATM) that he is coming around & warming up to admitting his feelings & wanting to be committed again....because he said so. We had such fun last night. We laughed and we were playful. It was nice. The best part was when HE cuddled into me to fall fast sleep... and how ALL night long he kept reaching for me just to reach out to have his hand on me. He seemed to get comfort from that too.
Then today, reality & back to work... busy day. He was nice & at the end of the day he was commenting on how nice it was to "sleep" with me and commenting again on how much fun I am (still).
Now, I realize that he is probably not fully ready and its possible that I could be destined for more heart ache. Therefore, I am being careful & going to go slow. I do believe that if things continue like this, it will naturally lead back into my CLTR (like he said he wants).
Tonight, he offered for me to come over & have pizza with him... I am going to decline & instead grab take out with DD & watch some TV & go to sleep early (I didn't sleep much... he SNORES!!).
Does my explanation indicate any better? or does everyone still feel the same?
We'll I haven't read all ur threads but if u have been in a relationship with this man for 20 years and not a sign of marriage commitment THAT alone should tell u something. I assume u pushed for more and he ditched u and NOW has u begging to have the old relationship back. He WINS. I have to hand it to him, he played this one well. Can u Not see that?????
"He has mentioned that he would do that. I just don't think he is quite there yet. "
This doesn't make sense. Did he say that he would go to C with you?
"When HE feels like it is something that will help HIM, then I think it would be worth spending the money.""
Who are YOU to judge that? If he wants to, then he has a right to go. And stop using the excuse of money as being the reason why you don't go to C. There are churches and other free marriage resources that can get you started.
You're still trying to control everything since Day 1.
Bond... he has mentioned it a couple times over the past few months. However, when I have suggested it...he pulls back, says he can do this on his own...So, out of my control.
As for IC, a few months ago I asked my doctor ~ she was going to get me into free community counselling. I haven't heard back. I guess I will call her again today.
Sunshine ~ Yes, I know he has a fear of commitment. However, this doesn't mean he wasn't faithful and loyal. He was definitely those qualities. Your assumption is incorrect. I did not push for marriage. After years of realizing we weren't getting married, I backed off. I was ok with it. We had a living arrangement that worked for us for a long time. BD happened due to mid-life crisis. His best friend died, and he went searching for a better life (didn't find one). He is back wanting to work on himself & our relationship. At this time, he thinks he can do it without the help of IC or MC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for me.... last night I did what I did not want to ever do. I pushed and was trying to manipulate to get some security. I don't know what I was thinking... he invited me over for dinner & next thing you know I was going through his phone, talking about transparency & asking why didn't he have sex over the past 2 years. It was not pretty. He was trying to keep it light & playful ... I was pushing! UGHHHHH. Everything I said I wasn't going to do... I did. I am being insecure.. not confident & independent!
I do not like myself much today.
I want to fix, by saying I'm sorry..... but wonder if that's the wrong thing to do. Maybe just back wayyyyyy off until he feels safe to come around again?
I don't need the 2x4's. I am doing that all by myself.
well... I just got off the phone with him. All seems to be OK... he fluffed it off into a joke.
But still ..... I really need to discipline myself in so many areas!
Call your doctor this morning and get the names of the free community counseling services. It's time you learn about yourself and why you do the things that you do.
Thanks Job... I have... I keep getting their answering machine. I will put my relentless ways into this self help project.
GRRRRRR
On the flip side, I am expressing my insecurities .. trying to be vulnerable. Wanting him to feel that he can express his vulnerability too... maybe its just too early.
Magic,
You are pushing the train up the hill and it doesn't work that way. You've got to allow things to progress naturally and the more you push and the hard you push, the longer it will take for things to work out accordingly.
Your partner may have laughed off your behavior of last night, but in the back of his mind, he knows you've not changed as much as you would like him to think you have.
What helped him to warm up to you was the fact that you were being independent, not jumping to accept every invitation that he posed to you, as well as living on your own and doing for yourself. Your insecurities, such as they are, i.e., pushing, impatience, neediness, always wanting clarification after he says or does something (which comes off as challenges/arguments) and yes, even wanting him to reassure you of his "commitment" to you.
Magic, you have received an enormous amount of advice that can and will help you, if only you would read it again and apply some of it to your situation. Your "fear" of him not wanting you is driving you to do the things that you once did. Have you given any thought to the fact that maybe your insecurities are what prompted him to ask you to leave in the first place? If he was in crisis, this behavior would not have been something that would attract him to you. It may have gotten on his nerves and he needed space and quiet time from your insecurities. Notice how you began to show signs of change and his interest began to take shape once again? Do what works and leave the rest behind.
Stop trying to fix him. You have to fix yourself first before you can even begin to try to work on your relationship w/him. You need to find out what is going on within yourself so that you can be the new and improved Magic.
Thanks Job...
The stupid thing is ... is that I KNOW this stuff & yet it came out again anyway. The new & improved Magic, wouldn't do this!! I slipped up....and I don't like it!
I think the reason I did what I did, was to show him my vulnerability... hoping & wanting to see his. Trying to let him know that he can put his guard down.... because I want to put mine down. However, I guess its really WAY too soon. I want to put my guard down, but I have NO real reason to just yet. He has not proven himself to me. He is way to playful and not ready to be that serious just yet.
I agree... none of this behaviour is attractive... in fact, I am surprised that he hasn't run off yet.
"do what works, and leave the rest behind"......
Job, thanks for coming back... I do re-read my posts.. I think I am just in too deep to be able to see what is written in there. I like when you pointed out above what was working and what was not. Its clear.. its there. I like when Matt pointed out that I am only interested in US, if HE is interested and we are on the same page. I like when Sandi does her math equations to help me... I understand this stuff.
still trying to call the doctor!!! she said it would take months to get in... its been months (hope they didn't forget about me)
You said you like equations....here's one
MM = sunshinelewis + GAL = MM <> sunshinelewis
In your answer to job, you replied
Job, thanks for coming back... I do re-read my posts.. I think I am just in too deep to be able to see what is written in there.
I suggest you read sunshines threads then, if they are still available.
Sunshine as she posted earlier, was just like you! and wow! What a transformation. Well done sunshine ! You might find seeing behaviours in someone else.
I don't think she would mind me saying that her threads were also like a soap opera.
awesome smurf... thanks... I will do some reading..
Fingers crossed that I can see similar behaviours in her... did she reconcile with her husband? Please tell me how she was like me? (so that I can watch).
I also called my doctor, I am still on the waiting list....
No sorry, you must do your own work, your threads are full of people offering advice, just to be rebuked. I don't intend to be another...,,.sorry cruel to be kind
Magic,
I never left, I just didn't post to you. There comes a time when I have to step away and allow you to hit that brick wall until you finally begin to understand that you can't fix, push or manipulate him. The only person you can fix is yourself and you do have some issues that you need to delve into w/a professional. If you don't learn about yourself and why you have these issues, they'll continue to haunt you for the rest of your life and yes, they will be this huge elephant in the room in any relationship that you have.
Sunshine went through the h@ll and back and finally began to see the light of day. No, she didn't reconcile w/her h. She still has a few issues to resolve, but I believe she's working on them to make herself a far better and happier person. So, yes, Smurf gave you a heads up on Sunshine's threads and you should read them. She struggled, stomped her feet and didn't understand the process, but she finally let go and that's what you need to learn to do...let go!
This board, the people here are wonderful and they try to help each other, but let's face it, your problems run a bit deeper than what we can assist you with. It's time to go a step further and seek some professional counseling in order for you to better understand yourself.
Smurf,
What a pleasant surprise and I'm glad to see you came by for a very short visit.
Hi Job, Smurf & all ...
Smurf: Thanks for chiming in. I wasnt asking you to do my homework... I was asking what particular behaviour was like hers.. or if you are just speaking in general terms. FYI, I don't think sunshinelewis's posts are available... I cannot find them. Also, I have GAL... I think I need independence & my own house (this would help).
Job: I already understand that I cannot fix, push or manipulate him.... I goofed this time, it was a mistake.... pushing and manipulating. 2 x 4 to self!! I am still impatient!!
I am not going to beat myself up about it anymore. I need to let it go & be OK with my own actions (right or wrong).
I have learned about myself (I have done a weekend retreat and was surprised at what I found out). I learned about several monkey's that I need to discipline & control/accept. I am working on myself to make myself better & happier.... this is & will continue to be a work in progress. I am not sure why this is not evident in my postings, I honestly am trying. I know I don't need him (sometimes I wonder if I even want him... this/he is a lot of work). I am hoping to read Sunshine's thread so that I can gain more knowledge. I did try earlier to see her posts but I can only find recent ones.
Tonight after work, I knew I wasn't going to attend my women's meeting & I suggested that we have a cup of tea at his place. He didn't really seem interested, although he did come around to the idea. I suggested (vulnerable & fearing rejection), because I wanted to know that if "I" make suggestions that he is willing to participate on my terms too. He had been wanting to rake the leaves, but was ok with my suggestion, I had a quick tea & then left. He gave me a quick kiss on the lips.
~~~~~~~~~~
I am doing the work to improve myself... I have improved myself & will continue to do so. I am not perfect, I made a mistake... For the last few days I have been riding my emotions (enough is enough now).
Tonight, I am unable to attend my women's group where tonights discussion is about setting goals. This is me, working on myself. So, unable to attend that meeting, I will will post here and treat this forum as my therapy for tonight.... if anyone wants to chime in, please do.
This is what my goal is:
"I surrender and allow myself to receive the gifts of life & love by letting go of control, because I am worth being pursued and appreciated"
My action steps are:
~ re-read: Surrendered Single, What Men Really Want, & Co-Dependent No More .... grasp this stuff!!
~ be aware of the need to control (STFU)
~ let go of the control, enjoy the outcome of allowing gifts to come to me
~ gain confidence. Be aware/appreciate self MORE!!
~ be "open" to whatever
~~~~~~~~~~
One of my questions to all is "how" I am not valuing myself? (please be as specific as you can)... I feel that I am valuing myself because I am not settling ... I am "tolerating/accepting" certain behaviours from him (and I am hoping he is tolerating/accepting certain behaviours from me) because we are "seeing how it goes"... my tolerating will be a temporary action until we are on more solid ground. An example of tolerating his behaviour is the lazy approach to his offers. However, I did clarify with him & got a better response.
When I read about posters who's husbands slowly return, the response usually is accepted by the readers and the general advice is to go slow & don't expect much from him.. (feral cat, squirrel analogy, cake baking, etc) ... I am wondering why I am not getting more of this kind of advice?... it "seems" as tho many of you expect him to be offering marriage or to be ready for counselling... geez, the guy is still coming out of his MLC... I don't get the pressure/demand here (as much as I would sometimes like to whack him on the head & wonder why he isn't already ready??)
You want to know how u are like I was? Some examples for you
1....I asked the same questions over and over and over. People gave me the same answers over and over and over. I kept asking hoping I would hear what I wanted to hear.....didn't happen, people just got tired of talking to a wall.
2....Defensive...I defended my actions AFTER I asked for opinions and people took time to help me.
3....I kept going thru he!! Because I refused to except things, it was a long rd.
4.....Manipulative! Thought I could manipulate my ex into doing what I wanted.
5....Naive.......believed every word that came out of his mouth and LOST everything financially possible. Believed him right up till he met and remarried someone else. Hung on every promise and crumb until it almost destroyed ME!
6.....co dependent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fear of being alone, so I would settle for just spending some time with him, sex included.
It really sickens me to read your posts sometimes because I want to reach out and shake u to the core. I remember being this hardheaded so well.
Seriously get help now!
Hi smurf glad to hear from u and thanks for the compliment. It's been a long road and as job said still trying to improve.
>>>>One of my questions to all is "how" I am not valuing myself? (please be as specific as you can)...
OK you asked....e........
How do you get from this?
>>>Tonight, he offered for me to come over & have pizza with him... I am going to decline & instead grab take out with DD & watch some TV & go to sleep early (I didn't sleep much... he SNORES!!).
To this
>>>he invited me over for dinner & next thing you know I was going through his phone,
What happened with your daughter? I bet she was pleased!
And what about GAL? What about all the valuing or respecting yourself more....Lapdog, doormat, accepting crumbs are all words that come to mind. He Whistles and you go running.
>>>geez, the guy is still coming out of his MLC
This Guy is not in MLC, he is fed up of you pressurising, and being clingy and needy.......so much so, he asks you to leave.
>>>When I read about posters who's husbands slowly return, the response usually is accepted by the readers and the general advice is to go slow & don't expect much from him.... I am wondering why I am not getting more of this kind of advice?...
His advances towards you appear to be commensurate to his testosterone level....but you see it as piecing.
The "business deal" is a fiasco....if this was a straight forward divorce, then the business would be split 50/50, and would not take this long to resolve.....
He is playing you ! Matt165 had the same observation.
In order to love someone, you have to respect them. By being a puppet he cannot respect you, therefore try as he might he cannot love you, not to the level you are wanting.
Thats why we are all telling you over and over again, to make a life for yourself, respect yourself, and leave him alone.....only then will things fall into place.
Hey Sunshine.... where can I read your story? Where did you get the help you needed? IC is not available to me just yet.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sorry, if many of you feel that the questions I ask are the same over & over. I see it differently. The questions I am currently asking are so that I can understand... fully.
Like, "how" I am not valuing myself? and in return "how" you would value yourself differently than I am? The second question I am asking, is "why" many of you feel /expect that HE should be "ready" to commit more than what he currently has. I don't understand when he is just coming out of MLC & probably still requiring space & time to finish baking. This is the advice I read on other threads.
Many of you say I keep asking the same questions, below are the questions from this thread that I have asked, some answered ... some not. Because I am asked to re-read my threads, I have not seen any duplicate questions...
Questions I have asked:
1) The Squirrel analogy.. is this not the right way?
2) asking for a suggestion on how to talk with him, so that I can apply new behaviours.... rec'd help but will continue to ask as each situation arises. (t-giving, "carry on", bidding, to go/not go away with him)
3) asking how to place him second, when he knows my day and my reason would come across as game playing
4) asking if T-giving scenario is weird.... rec'd comments
5) asking how to get his respect and pursuit while dealing with my attraction to him and wanting back my family life/home?
6) how to be placed higher on his priority list?
7) how to be more of a challenge? To have things more on my terms?
8) how can he feel as tho he has lost me, now that we are re-connecting?
9) asking what is the way to help him past his feeling that I will run a mile if he gives me an inch?
10) asking to be shown where I am not following advice?
11) is this piecing? what exactly is the definition of piecing?
12) suggestions on what to do next
13) has he progressed? have we (as a couple) progressed?
14) where his actions/words are not matching? where my actions/words aren't matching. What actions/interactions would be better?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He called this morning... discussed work & then he brought up a heated argument that he had with his mom this morning. Then mentioned to me that he was sharing it with me.
He also asked if I would pick him up (his convenience) and then go pick up another vehicle out of town... this would require that I drop all that I am doing. 180. "no sorry.. I am deep in other work right now". <<<< If I want respect, I cannot be dropping things to accommodate him. Yes, this is a business request, however, its not a priority from what I am doing. He was satisfied with my answer.
I am sorry, if many of you feel that the questions I ask are the same over & over. I see it differently.
That's a key part of the issues you have, and what you need a good IC to help you with. You see EVERYTHING differently, MM . . . EVERYTHING needs to be qualified, explained, rationalized, "corrected," etc. You do this with us, you do this with your xBF and I suspect it is a huge part of why he pushes you away.
I mean, think about it: if you saw things clearly, you're obviously a bright, capable woman -- you'd be able to fix it. The fact that you don't see your sitch clearly (many of us don't, when we're in it) is part of your dysfunction.
Starsky
I am sorry, I truly do not understand
>>>>He also asked if I would pick him up (his convenience) and then go pick up another vehicle out of town... this would require that I drop all that I am doing. 180. "no sorry.. I am deep in other work right now". <<<< If I want respect, I cannot be dropping things to accommodate him.
This is just childish, how is this a 180?
You are supposed to be equal partners....well 51/49, Is your denying a simple business request good for the business? Is it going to earn you respect?
The bidding the other day/week, you could not see that he was empowering you! He was working on/in/under vehicles and you plague him with calls and texts!
OMG!
Houston (smurf)... we have a problem. I am not trying to make you wrong. Your reply would be accurate if you had the story straight.
Starsky... am I supposed to not set the story straight? The corrected version would be speaking the truth & therefore REAL advice could be given from that point. I agree however, that part of my dysfunction is not being able to see ALL things clearly. please read below:
SEE? I post and it gets twisted.. not sure why this happens!!
When he invited me to dinner (pizza) & I declined to be with my daughter... I did just that. I spent the night with my daughter and fell asleep early. The next day, he asked for dinner again (eggs). My daughter was pleased. I was finally making her a priority (need to do this more often).... Smurf got this mixed up & therefore the advice given doesn't apply.
And.. what about GAL?... why do you think I am not GAL? I have posted about my GAL activities...
However, I do agree... that when he whistles, I go running. I want to change this and have asked for suggestions that do not come across as games. I have specifically asked "how"? Due to the nature of our business (on call), when he makes a suggestion to hang out with him, he "knows" the work schedule & I cannot say "can't, have work to prioritize". This would come across as game playing. Keep in mind we work 9am-9pm. Please explain further.
MLC?... why do you say he is not MLC. The guy was full blown MLC since before BD, has all kinds of symptoms & behaviours of MLC.
However, accurate again on me pressurizing, clingy & needy (at BD).. not during our relationship & not during the past 2 years. I am working to not be that way again!
OK... I do see it as piecing because of his actions & words. I do agree that his testosterone level is up too... what man's isn't? If HE says he is "working on us" and HE "feels" like he is, and HE makes gestures other than sex related, and HE tries to do nice things for me.... isn't that the beginning?
As for the business... HE "says" things to our clients like "our" place, since "we" bought this place, etc. He is allowing others to know this is "ours"... not "his". Why would we be splitting the business IF we were trying to reconcile now?
Yes, in order to love someone you have to respect them... I think he has been respecting me more and more. I sense him searching for ways to satisfy me. He is really talking & speaking nicer/kinder to me, asking me my opinion "what do you want to do (food/fun stuff/ideas/places)"?, being open to seeing each other more, trying to come up with ideas on how to break free from our work/work day, sharing, etc...
I am trying to get out of my "puppet" ways... this is 180 and requires MUCH discipline. I am working on it. Its just not natural all the time, yet.
Smurf... you suggest I am a puppet.. yet, when I try to empower myself by NOT jumping at his request (picking up a vehicle), you tell me its wrong.... I mentioned it was not priority. Why is it childish? 180 for me because I normally jump (like you said I do). Yes, I do see that bidding on my own empowers me.. however, it was his WAY of going about it (leaving me hanging, etc) that was off.
Also, he went to sleep (so he said)... he was not on/under/in vehicles like you suggest. However, point made.... The OLD MM, used to call at the wrong time. I barely call/text him at all now.
OHHH... one thing I have come to realize that I believe Sandi help me to realize is that I feel the need to clarify, etc is because I want to feel closure.
Well silly me for interpreting wrong
As I said in my 2nd post
>>>>> your threads are full of people offering advice, just to be rebuked. I don't intend to be another.
I am so sorry smurf.. thats not what I meant... I meant to say that your opinion is off because somehow it was either written wrong or taken wrong. I am not out to make you wrong... but to somehow right the circumstance/situation. I hope you understand.
As identified, the reason I clarify, explain, come across as argumentative is due to the fact that I am genuinely seeking closure. I feel that to get this, the REAL truth needs to be mentioned.
For example (not to point you out): "IF" your opinions of my Xbf or myself are based on a few of the above mentioned comments, then I could see your point. However, if some need tweaking... would your opinions be the same? (possibly not).... Like the comment you made where I didn't follow through with my evening with my DD... but, I DID.. .and therefore she felt good (not like you suggest) and I wasn't quite the puppy dog you are making me out to be. ... if other readers read what you thought... I come across as a big puppy dog, puppet..waiting... not fair, because its not the truth... and then others chime in on how they agree. Should this not be clarified?
I am really genuinely wanting your opinion (based on full truth), of how I am childish in what I thought was a valuing self response to him, when he expected/asked me to jump to go pick him up.
MM
I have stopped posting to you because IMO, you really are not ready or do not want to hear what EVERYBODY has been saying to you. For the most part everyone has continue to say the same thing to you. IMO, you have had some of the best poster that I know post to you and you still defend, and still cannot see what people are trying to say. Einstein definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Let me ask you a few questions….are you really ready to hear what people have to say? Are you really ready to walk away from this man, if only for a period of time to work on YOU and to get YOU to a place emotionally where you feel better? Are you ready to finally face your fear of losing him? IMO, you are so afraid of losing him that you will do anything it take to keep him. Yes this site is about saving marriages/relationships – that is true. The approach though is one that you do not seem to be able to grasp, which is …..SAVE YOURSELF, FIX YOURSELF FIRST and then try and salvage the R.
IMO, because everything you continue to do is to GET HIM BACK – you are not spending the time on trying to fix yourself. I agree with the others that you really need more help than this board can provide; however, if you were willing to really LET GO…then maybe…maybe…you can finally begin to fix yourself.
A couple of examples:
1) You want to buy a house for YOU – it will, according to you help you feel independent. Interesting enough…you claim to not have the money for IC. So to me, this tells me that YOU are not willing to do what it takes to fix YOU. The house is more important. IMO, you will remain on the hamster wheel until you decide to finally but YOURSELF first.
2) You continue to defend him – a clear sign of an abuse victim. Yet you do not see it. An IC would help you realize this – IF you went in to see the person to fix yourself – NOT to get him back.
3) I have posted that what you do are ACTIONS to get HIM back. Ya know MM, the same people that you claim do not SEE It from your perspective WERE IN YOUR SHOES before. I understand why you do what you do – I really do. I also know why I did what I did – initially.
4)
I already understand that I cannot fix, push or manipulate him.... I goofed this time, it was a mistake.... pushing and manipulating. 2 x 4 to self!! I am still impatient!!
Do you really understand that you cannot fix him? You said it was a mistake your actions…you even gave yourself a 2x4….yet you brush it off as a simple mistake. What you FAIL to see is that this ^^^ is a clear sign that YOU are not spending enough time trying to FIX YOU.
I am doing the work to improve myself...
Only you know this….what I find interesting is that most of the poster that have posted to you….would disagree, but then again…I know what your answer would be…. “we just do know…you see more in him….you are working on it….you are making progress…so is he…..” DB101 – validate. Read your responses to your fellow posters. Do you feel you validate US? Do you think your response just to the people on this board are consistent with who YOU want to be? Honestly, they are quite dismissive. I will not speak for everyone else… but when I spend time to try and post to you time after time after time….only to be dismissed. Why should I keep trying?
I am wondering why I am not getting more of this kind of advice?...
Because the people who have been posting to you do not agree that this is applicable to YOU. That is why. I am not here to tell you what you WANT to hear. If you want that….ya came to the wrong place.
it "seems" as tho many of you expect him to be offering marriage or to be ready for counselling...
Actually…..what you interpret as “seems”…is the problem. You hear what YOU WANT to hear. YOU interpret the way YOU want to interpret it. Personally, I think I have said 1,000…..work on yourself and let him go. That is not saying he should offer marriage. More importantly….. look at most of your posts….notice your thought process is what we expect “HE” should be doing. You see you want US to change HIM. You want us to tell YOU how to change HIM. MM, no one is gonna change HIM except himself. When you realize that you may finally take a different approach. Like……work on CHANGING YOURSELF.
So you ask….how are you not valuing myself….
IMO, the way you post, the way I see you think about things……if your BF were to say to you….. shove a banana in between your arms pits and jump up like a chicken for 4 days and THEN I will take you back and we will go back to the way things were….I actually believe you would do it.
Another point….your anger…..
Yep…subtle as it is…..is usually directed to the poster that do not agree with you. Why not take some of that anger and direct it towards HIM for once. Know why you will not…..cause you afraid to lose him.
When you finally stop being afraid to lose him is when you will find yourself.
When you find yourself …..that MM….
Is when YOU give yourself the best chance to have the R that you want….be it with him or with someone else.
Oh…and MLC or NOT….the steps are the same…..
Work on YOU, fix YOU, GAL, Detach……then maybe….you have shot.
I eagerly await your response, which I am sure will just tell me to explain further...to expand...or that I am not seeing or understanding what you are saying.
I meant to say that your opinion is off because somehow it was either written wrong or taken wrong. I am not out to make you wrong... but to somehow right the circumstance/situation. I hope you understand.
This response from you to smurf...was really enough for me MM.
Good luck. Really. Get yourself into IC. I think it the best thing you can do for yourself. I wish you much love and blessings in your life.
MM, you say you have GAL, you always say you have GAL, but we hear so little of it that it is hard imagine that it is impacting your sitch at all. Everyone on here echo's the same thing; GAL, GAl and more GAL. And they do GAL and it becomes part of their lives. I don't mean your casual 1 or 2 lines once in awhile that mentions dinner with DD. You need GAL.
Magic,
You need to get some professional counseling to better understand yourself. If you weren't able to speak to your doctor yesterday, then continue trying until you do. The issues that you have are issues that we can't help you fix. Only you and a therapist can do this, if you are willing to do the necessary work to figure out why you do the things that you do. This board can't help you with those deep underlying issues, but IC will be the key to helping you better understand yourself.
Eric... how did I offend you in my response to Smurf? I am apologizing for the mix up & taking some responsibility and offering an explanation. Why would I want her (or anyone) to be ill-informed...how does that help her to understand my sitch better or for me to receive proper advice based on truth?... I don't get it... am I supposed to let it slide and ignore it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My thoughts before bed last night... Yes, I am too available which may come across as needy/clingy. Also, my recent behaviour where I shared my insecurities & it makes me look weak. Add to this, learning about self value.
From this... I am prepared to step back from him (somewhat) and learn to be more independent. Learn what a life without him "there" is like. To be able to do this, I have been taking the steps to purchase a house. Until then, I don't know what else I can do. What can be done today?
Eric...I am responding because you took the time to ask the questions... so, lets break this down, please. If you can, I have asked questions in return which I feel will help me to understand your point better. I am truly trying to understand. However, if you feel that its too much.. I am sorry. I felt that responding in this length would be beneficial.
Eric, you ask... am I READY to hear what people say?... I honestly believe I am doing this already & have for many months and am prepared for more. Otherwise, how did I grow & how he come back?
am I ready to walk away from this man (if temporary) to help myself?... Yes, however I feel that I already did this... and he came forward. Explain why this is not the case? How do you see this differently?
I feel I did face my fear of losing him...it sucked... I was on my path (admit still early on my path) to acceptance & learning to go on without him. I had accepted that he may be with OW & be living a life without me too. I was considering dating. I was considering my business/work options. I was reviewing and organizing my finances. I was spending ALOT of time with friends & going out to concerts....GAL. I belong to a women's group that helps to keep me inline. When you say that "save yourself, fix yourself first & then work on R".... doesn't the above show this is what I have been doing?... my next goals are to work on my relationships with my daughter & parents. They were symptoms to my growth. I need to do some repair there.
Now, I agree with you partially when you say that "everything" I am doing is to get him back.... hmmmmm... I would say that he is on the road back, so everything I have done, has helped for him to come back... but it was NOT just to get him back... it was about changes I needed to make...for me. AND... there are still more to make..for me.... the bonus was getting him to look my way again.
When you suggest in order for me to fix myself, I must let go... how do I let go? Are you suggesting I do it again? (please be specific) Again, I feel like I did... I stopped asking him stuff, I didn't care anymore what he was doing or who he was with, I feel I detached myself because I loved him enough to let him go figure himself out... <<< isn't this letting go?
To be specific to your examples:
1) I do not take a weekly income. We take annual income ... this is changing (our accountant is back in 2 weeks, this is our new agenda). Therefore, my cash flow is limited. I have large funds available to place a down payment on a house, but my pocket money is nil.... I find $250/visit VERY expensive. What do others pay "out of pocket"?
2) If & when I get to counselling... it will be to fix myself....then aim for MC
3) I believe you.
4) yes, it was my mistake... and I have been very hard on myself for 2 years. Afraid to make a mistake. It was Job who suggested at one point to learn by my mistake & not do it again. To not beat myself up so much.... I am still in "school". I forgive myself too (this is new, this is growth)
dismissive? I am truly sorry if you feel that way and if my ways come across like that. I KNOW that you and many of the wise posters on here spend ALOT of time trying to teach me & get frustrated. Please believe me I get frustrated too... but, never dismissive. I look back at times to review what you have said & try to apply it. to try it on... to see if it makes sense. You say many of the posters would disagree that I am working on myself... this is upsetting because I know that when I look over my shoulder to where I was & where I am now, there has been change.
Believe me... I do NOT want the advice of "tell her what she wants to hear".. this would not be helpful. I do want to know why its not applicable...because if I look at him & where I was almost 2 years ago... he is not gone, he is around, he was completely gone before... now he is sniffing...checking things out. Isn't he? This is how I see it... .and his words are now lining up with his actions... its a start.. isn't it?
Admittingly, at times I want him to do more changing and I guess it comes across as me asking how to make him change (He needs to want the changes himself... and he says he does). I guess what I am after is what further changes can I make in myself to get what I want from him.... I want it faster. I am impatient (I get that).
Knowing me.. the new me... I would NOT do a ridiculous dance to get him back... this is hurtful. Ouch. I guess it appears to many on here, that I would... not sure what to say or do to make anyone believe any different.
It is my recent training & belief to learn to sit back and allow him to do the work. To see what HE really wants. Manipulation and controlling has worked in the past to getting what I wanted, but only temporary. I am learning that "IF" I can hold off, listen & watch... I may see & come to know what HIS wants are. <<< this is more authentic!!
I will take what you say about losing him... I do not want to lose him... however, I don't "fear" losing him anymore. I am not near as scared as I used to be... I have lived through almost 2 years of him not by my side. I have more to go on this (getting a house will help). I know other men would desire me & some may treat me even better than him. It is my choice to want to work on things with him.
Yes, MLC or not.. the steps have been the same: continue to work on me, GAL, and stay detached (until safe).... I am determined. I am the prize.
hey Magic! I just wanted to remind you how to find any poster's old posts. Click on his or her name (in the column on the left, next to their message). A drop down list will come up. Click on "view posts" - a grid will come up with all of that poster's posts. To see those he or she created, click on "topics created." I did that with Sunshine Lewis, and found her old posts back to December 2008 in ten seconds flat.
I'm sort of sad to see so little progress in your sitch since I last checked in on you; I think last May when my D was finalized. Best of luck to you, and my advice to you stays the same - detach, let go, move forward, move on, God bless.
Magic,
When someone makes a mistake, once, twice or even three times, they shouldn't beat themselves up over it....however, when the person continues to make the same mistake over and over again and doesn't learn from that mistake, then that person needs to sit down and take a hard look at themselves and ask....why do I continue to make the same mistake over and over again?
Your behavior and the way that you interact w/your former partner reminds me of an addict. Your former partner is the drug. You can't leave him alone. When he drops a few crumbs of warmth, you are right there gobbling them up. You have even admitted that you shouldn't do certain things and yet the minute you are given an inch, you do them. Your words that you post here do not match your actions in many instances. Before you ask for examples, go back and read your posting of the other night.
When you are ready to do the necessary work on yourself, I will be more than happy to come back and post to you.
Well silly me for interpreting wrong
As I said in my 2nd post
>>>>> your threads are full of people offering advice, just to be rebuked. I don't intend to be another.
Sorry for the hijack MM
Simon - welcome back, looks like the last purge did in your resources thread.
We have been trying to put them back together and any help you can give, please post here on this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...600#Post2481600Hijack over.
Eric... how did I offend you in my response to Smurf? I am apologizing for the mix up & taking some responsibility and offering an explanation. Why would I want her (or anyone) to be ill-informed...how does that help her to understand my sitch better or for me to receive proper advice based on truth?... I don't get it... am I supposed to let it slide and ignore it?
For many that post...
Often, it is the behavioral patterns, that our posts are directed towards more so than the direct events in each sitch...
Everyone that posts to you, "gets it"....
The details really aren't THAT important...( yes, really)
It is your behavioral patterns that send up the red flags.
And they have not changed....
Smurf, good to see you here : )
MM
I decided to respond to your last post to me. I do not intend to spend much more time going back and forth with you. That said, I believe that deep down inside you really do want to change. I think just do not know how to and the deep seeded issues I see in you may never allow you to see the bigger problem – hence I do feel that you need to get yourself into therapy as soon as possible. Cost IMO, should not be a consideration. I would ask yourself…how much is your happiness and emotional well being worth to YOU? Me? If it was 1,000 a session – I would pay it. I would borrow it. I would sell stuff to get it. It really does matter. What matters is that YOU get the help that you need.
You seem to need a play by play of EXACTLY what to do and what to say. So I am taking the time as a last ditch effort in the hopes that maybe just maybe this is what you need. I do not expect to have to spell it out any more specifically than what I am about to write. NO one here is sitting/standing next to you when you communicate and deal with your bf. Maybe that is what you need – even though…that would not address the bigger issues that I believe are in play here. As Mach posted…it is the behavioral patterns that are the issue.
Have you ever heard of a cycle….you know something that goes round and round.
Step 1 – MM post update. Ask for advice.
Step 2 – poster responds.
Step 3 – MM claims poster did not understand what she wrote
Step 4 – Poster responds
Step 5 – MM claims poster did not understand so she had to “clarify” so that the advice was “fact based”.
Step 6 – Poster responds
Step 7 – MM responds and says poster does not get it and cannot see what she sees.
Step 8 – Poster responds and tries another approach.
Step 9 – MM responds claims poster did not understand what she wrote and start to defend
Step 10 – Poster responds
Step 11 – MM says she gets it but that poster a, b and c, did not understand what she is trying to say.
Step 12 – Poster responds
Step 13- MM apologizes if she has annoyed a poster. She then proceeds to Step 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 11.
Step 14 – Poster stops posting to MM.
Stop…repeat…start at Step 1.
I hope one day you see this patter MM….I really do.
Anywhooo…getting back to the play by play of exactly what I would do if I were YOU.
In short…you want to know what to do to accomplish your goals right? The goals are broadly defined as 1) get him back or back to you in a manner that you deem acceptable (i.e. just a good R with him again) and 2) learn self worth and become more independent. My response is based on trying to provide you with as much specific to achieve the goals I mentioned above. If you have additional goals….I cannot help with these.
Here is what I would do.
Schedule a meeting with your BF. It will be discussion between you and him. It is not a work meeting. It is a relationship meeting (yes I know you are gonna say…you are not suppose to have them – I get that. FTR, the tips that people give you are not black and white. Every person sitch is different. The tips are GENERAL in nature and are intended, at least IMO, to give you guidance toward general behaviors and actions that you may want to consider using to achieve your goals)
At the meeting you will be giving your BF the option to choose. His choices should tell you all that you need to know. At the same time you will be laying down boundaries that are needed for YOUR emotional health, while also being considerate of his needs. The key though…is that YOUR needs/boundaries come first – cause…at the end of the day…you are responsible for your well being.
- BR, I have something to discuss with you and I ask you to listen to me in totally before you respond. Please give me this time as what I am about to say is very important to ME.
- BR, I have been thinking about our R lately. I believe that both you and I have work to do on ourselves. We can either do it together in a committed relationship OR we can do it apart in a strictly business relationship capacity (these are the options MM).
- I want you to know that I love you very much. Over the past few years and with everything that has gone on between us, the business, the family and in general, I have learned a few things about myself and our relationship.
- First, I have realized that I have some faults that I need to work on. Some of them I believe I have really finally fixed, others are a work in progress. I am totally comfortable with that. I understand myself enough now…that I know I am giving my all to be the best woman I can be.
- I also realize and came to the conclusion that I deserve to have the dreams and wishes that I hoped for in my life. I hope that you can be a part of that and I understand if for your own reasons you do not want or are incapable of giving me what I want. I respect that BF. I really do. I finally realize, that regardless of what happens…I really will be okay.
- So what do I want? I wanted to be in a committed relationship, where I am valued, appreciated, loved, cherished and treated like an equal with the constructs of a relationship. I will explain each of these in detail in second so that you understand where I am coming from and I am making it as clear as possible.
- I want to give my heart to someone that worships and respects me. That treats me like a I deserve to be treated.
- I know I have flaws that I need to work on. I want someone to respect me, to understand my flaws and love me not in spite of them but because of them.
- I know that I am good person, that I have a great heart, that I love and I love deeply. I want the person in my life to reciprocate these feelings back to me.
- I want a friendship, I want a lover, I want a confidant, I want someone who will get me – flaws and all.
- I want someone who can compromise, I want someone who’s actions speak much louder than their words. Who’s actions are consistent. I want someone that is kind to me. I want someone that can balance life, where work is not everything but rather…being with the person you love is also a critical ingredient. I want someone that can listen…and I mean really listen…to what I am saying. I hope that this person is you and I understand if you cannot be that person or NOW is not the right time for you. That is fine.
- As I said, I wanted to clarify what these traits and actions look like to me. I am not saying that you do not understand or do not do these things. That is not what this conversation is about. It really is…about me sharing with you my feelings and wants. I understand that you may or may not agree with how I defined these traits. These though are I define them for myself and how I would hope my partner would define them.
Valued: Valued to me means that my feelings matter. It means that although my partner may not always understand my feelings, that my partner can value them as well as me. Value to me means that my partner is reliable. When my partner say or promise something the he deliver on it. I understand from time to time that chit happens and for example my partner may be late…but those times are far and few between. Value to me, means that my partner would value me as a business partner and will work with me to make me an equal part owner of our company. Value to me means that my partner would value where I live and would want to be with me – regardless of circumstances.
Appreciated: Appreciating me means that my partner appreciate what I do for them and that they would do whatever they can to show that appreciation towards me. That would include committing to spending time with me, to talk, to chat and also doing things that I would like to do.
Loved – God so loved the world that he gave his only son. Now that is love. Love is not about keeping score. It is not about tit for tat. It is about sharing with each other. Both emotionally, physically and financially. Love is understanding. Love is compassion. Love is kind. Love to me also includes security. I want to feel secure with my partner, I want to feel like I can share my heart with partner with no worries. I want to share my inner most secrets with my partner. I want my partner to love me enough to a cheerleader on my side. Cheering me on, inspiring me to be the best me I can be. I want my partner to love me enough that If they were see how I was feeling or if I needed and really wanted something…that they would do whatever it takes to help me achieve my goals. I ask for this knowing in my heart that I would do the same for my partner. Love to me – means NO FEAR. It means that fear does not play a part in my relationship. Love to me means, my partner would not be afraid to open up to me and I would not be afraid to open up to him.
Treated like an Equal : My opinion matters. Period. I want my partner to respect my opinion and to treat me like an equal. If I owned a business with my partner…we would own it equally.
Respect : Respect is much like being treated equal. The biggest thing though is that I respect myself. I would not ask my partner to do something that I myself would not do. I would want my partner to respect my boundaries. My boundaries are mine. My partner does not have to understand them – they must though respect them. Not respecting them is a clear sign of disrespect and it would show me that I am not valued, appreciate or loved.
Compromise: Compromise is two people working together to reach an agreement that both people can feel okay with. It is not one sided, it is not manipulation. Compromise takes effort and it take communication. Compromise only works if both people respect and value each other. Communication is so important. I want my partner to say what he means and means what he says. I want to do the same. I want my partner to be able to give and take with me.
- I hoped this helped you understand the traits and values that I find important to me and important to any relationship that I am in.
- As I mentioned when I started this discussion I believe we can take one of two paths. Here is how these would work for me.
Path one – We do this together as a team.
o We sign up for therapy as a couple. We go in with an open mind. I will also sign up for my own individual therapy. I would suggest that same for you; however, that is your choice.
o The therapist that we will see is a solution based therapist. Cost should not be an issue. Whatever it cost it cost. I believe that our R is worth the cost. We can deduct it equally from the business.
o During therapy, we focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.
o While we do this first as a team, I think it is best that we go very slow, specifically around intimacy. Let’s talk about this with the counselor.
o If we agree to do this as a team, we are agreeing that no third parties are involved. In other words, I will not date and I would require the same commitment from you.
Path two – we proceed as business partners and work separately on ourselves.
o We will maintain our relationship strictly on a business level. This means, that any communication we have is related to the business.
o I will not discuss any relationship topics
o I will not engage in intimacy on any level.
o I will not go over to your place and I would respectfully ask you not to come over to mine. I believe it just confuses things and I would like to respect your wishes and have you respect mine.
o We focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.
o I will not discuss with you any personal matters – and I will not ask you any non-business related questions.
o I do not believe that “friendship” is best right now, we may consider this in the future but I do not see that for a long time. I think we can maintain a professional working relationship.
MM, I suspect that he will have some comments. Since I cannot be standing right next to you…I have list a few of the things he may say and how I would respond. (you asked me to be specific I am trying to be as specific as humanly possible).
BF’s responses:
BF - I need more time to figure out how to transfer your share of the company over.
MM Response should be: We will do this in 30 days. I believe this is enough time. You, the accountant, everyone has dragged there feet on this. MY financial security is tied to this and I will no longer wait.
BF – I thought things were going well…why are you pressuring me?
MM Response: I understand that this is how YOU feel. I feel differently. I finally have come to realize my value and I no longer care to wait around for you to finally decide to commit. You are committing or you are not. It really is black or white.
BF – There you go pushing again....
MM Response: I understand that you feel I am pushing. I am telling you what I need – if you consider that pushing I am sorry that you feel that way.
BF – Well how am I suppose to feel like I want to commit again with all of these rules?
MM Response: BF, I matter. So….ask yourself…why should I not ask for what I want. Does being in a one sided R appeal to you? Cause it does not appeal to me?
BF – Okay…so you are saying I can date other people?
MM Response: If you elect to do this with me then NO. If you elect to do this separately, then I am not going to tell you what to do. Your actions would say enough to me. If you are wondering what I plan to do….all I can say at this time is that my plan is to focus on continuing to be the best person I can be.
BF – Do we have any other options?
MM Response – NO.
BF – I feel pressured.
MM Response – I can understand how you may feel that way and I am sorry that you do. I have spent the past two years of my life, and I am not getting any younger, walking around you and waiting for you to realize what you have in front of you. I have come to the conclusion that maybe you are unable to give me what I deserve. I understand that. I am choosing to work on myself and let you figure your own stuff out. I guess I finally realized that I cannot change you. I cannot get you to see what is in front of you. I cannot get you to realize that….with you…..and your actions….I feel used.
BF – I never used you…I treated you good. YOU are applying pressure again. I told you…we will figure out the business stuff…I told you not to push me…
MM Response: I am sorry that you feel this way. IMO, we have wasted time trying to split the business. I have waited for a long time. I am not pushing YOU..I am giving you options to choose from – you are choosing not to do this together.
MM, I can try and mind read all day long. I have tried to explain as best as I can what I would do if I were you. Either way you decide to go…please MM, please for YOUR daughters sake….get into therapy asap.
MM
I decided to respond to your last post to me. I do not intend to spend much more time going back and forth with you. That said, I believe that deep down inside you really do want to change. I think just do not know how to and the deep seeded issues I see in you may never allow you to see the bigger problem – hence I do feel that you need to get yourself into therapy as soon as possible. Cost IMO, should not be a consideration. I would ask yourself…how much is your happiness and emotional well being worth to YOU? Me? If it was 1,000 a session – I would pay it. I would borrow it. I would sell stuff to get it. It really does matter. What matters is that YOU get the help that you need.
You seem to need a play by play of EXACTLY what to do and what to say. So I am taking the time as a last ditch effort in the hopes that maybe just maybe this is what you need. I do not expect to have to spell it out any more specifically than what I am about to write. NO one here is sitting/standing next to you when you communicate and deal with your bf. Maybe that is what you need – even though…that would not address the bigger issues that I believe are in play here. As Mach posted…it is the behavioral patterns that are the issue.
Have you ever heard of a cycle….you know something that goes round and round.
Step 1 – MM post update. Ask for advice.
Step 2 – poster responds.
Step 3 – MM claims poster did not understand what she wrote
Step 4 – Poster responds
Step 5 – MM claims poster did not understand so she had to “clarify” so that the advice was “fact based”.
Step 6 – Poster responds
Step 7 – MM responds and says poster does not get it and cannot see what she sees.
Step 8 – Poster responds and tries another approach.
Step 9 – MM responds claims poster did not understand what she wrote and start to defend
Step 10 – Poster responds
Step 11 – MM says she gets it but that poster a, b and c, did not understand what she is trying to say.
Step 12 – Poster responds
Step 13- MM apologizes if she has annoyed a poster. She then proceeds to Step 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 11.
Step 14 – Poster stops posting to MM.
Stop…repeat…start at Step 1.
I hope one day you see this patter MM….I really do.
Anywhooo…getting back to the play by play of exactly what I would do if I were YOU.
In short…you want to know what to do to accomplish your goals right? The goals are broadly defined as 1) get him back or back to you in a manner that you deem acceptable (i.e. just a good R with him again) and 2) learn self worth and become more independent. My response is based on trying to provide you with as much specific to achieve the goals I mentioned above. If you have additional goals….I cannot help with these.
Here is what I would do.
Schedule a meeting with your BF. It will be discussion between you and him. It is not a work meeting. It is a relationship meeting (yes I know you are gonna say…you are not suppose to have them – I get that. FTR, the tips that people give you are not black and white. Every person sitch is different. The tips are GENERAL in nature and are intended, at least IMO, to give you guidance toward general behaviors and actions that you may want to consider using to achieve your goals)
At the meeting you will be giving your BF the option to choose. His choices should tell you all that you need to know. At the same time you will be laying down boundaries that are needed for YOUR emotional health, while also being considerate of his needs. The key though…is that YOUR needs/boundaries come first – cause…at the end of the day…you are responsible for your well being.
- BR, I have something to discuss with you and I ask you to listen to me in totally before you respond. Please give me this time as what I am about to say is very important to ME.
- BR, I have been thinking about our R lately. I believe that both you and I have work to do on ourselves. We can either do it together in a committed relationship OR we can do it apart in a strictly business relationship capacity (these are the options MM).
- I want you to know that I love you very much. Over the past few years and with everything that has gone on between us, the business, the family and in general, I have learned a few things about myself and our relationship.
- First, I have realized that I have some faults that I need to work on. Some of them I believe I have really finally fixed, others are a work in progress. I am totally comfortable with that. I understand myself enough now…that I know I am giving my all to be the best woman I can be.
- I also realize and came to the conclusion that I deserve to have the dreams and wishes that I hoped for in my life. I hope that you can be a part of that and I understand if for your own reasons you do not want or are incapable of giving me what I want. I respect that BF. I really do. I finally realize, that regardless of what happens…I really will be okay.
- So what do I want? I wanted to be in a committed relationship, where I am valued, appreciated, loved, cherished and treated like an equal with the constructs of a relationship. I will explain each of these in detail in second so that you understand where I am coming from and I am making it as clear as possible.
- I want to give my heart to someone that worships and respects me. That treats me like a I deserve to be treated.
- I know I have flaws that I need to work on. I want someone to respect me, to understand my flaws and love me not in spite of them but because of them.
- I know that I am good person, that I have a great heart, that I love and I love deeply. I want the person in my life to reciprocate these feelings back to me.
- I want a friendship, I want a lover, I want a confidant, I want someone who will get me – flaws and all.
- I want someone who can compromise, I want someone who’s actions speak much louder than their words. Who’s actions are consistent. I want someone that is kind to me. I want someone that can balance life, where work is not everything but rather…being with the person you love is also a critical ingredient. I want someone that can listen…and I mean really listen…to what I am saying. I hope that this person is you and I understand if you cannot be that person or NOW is not the right time for you. That is fine.
- As I said, I wanted to clarify what these traits and actions look like to me. I am not saying that you do not understand or do not do these things. That is not what this conversation is about. It really is…about me sharing with you my feelings and wants. I understand that you may or may not agree with how I defined these traits. These though are I define them for myself and how I would hope my partner would define them.
Valued: Valued to me means that my feelings matter. It means that although my partner may not always understand my feelings, that my partner can value them as well as me. Value to me means that my partner is reliable. When my partner say or promise something the he deliver on it. I understand from time to time that chit happens and for example my partner may be late…but those times are far and few between. Value to me, means that my partner would value me as a business partner and will work with me to make me an equal part owner of our company. Value to me means that my partner would value where I live and would want to be with me – regardless of circumstances.
Appreciated: Appreciating me means that my partner appreciate what I do for them and that they would do whatever they can to show that appreciation towards me. That would include committing to spending time with me, to talk, to chat and also doing things that I would like to do.
Loved – God so loved the world that he gave his only son. Now that is love. Love is not about keeping score. It is not about tit for tat. It is about sharing with each other. Both emotionally, physically and financially. Love is understanding. Love is compassion. Love is kind. Love to me also includes security. I want to feel secure with my partner, I want to feel like I can share my heart with partner with no worries. I want to share my inner most secrets with my partner. I want my partner to love me enough to a cheerleader on my side. Cheering me on, inspiring me to be the best me I can be. I want my partner to love me enough that If they were see how I was feeling or if I needed and really wanted something…that they would do whatever it takes to help me achieve my goals. I ask for this knowing in my heart that I would do the same for my partner. Love to me – means NO FEAR. It means that fear does not play a part in my relationship. Love to me means, my partner would not be afraid to open up to me and I would not be afraid to open up to him.
Treated like an Equal : My opinion matters. Period. I want my partner to respect my opinion and to treat me like an equal. If I owned a business with my partner…we would own it equally.
Respect : Respect is much like being treated equal. The biggest thing though is that I respect myself. I would not ask my partner to do something that I myself would not do. I would want my partner to respect my boundaries. My boundaries are mine. My partner does not have to understand them – they must though respect them. Not respecting them is a clear sign of disrespect and it would show me that I am not valued, appreciate or loved.
Compromise: Compromise is two people working together to reach an agreement that both people can feel okay with. It is not one sided, it is not manipulation. Compromise takes effort and it take communication. Compromise only works if both people respect and value each other. Communication is so important. I want my partner to say what he means and means what he says. I want to do the same. I want my partner to be able to give and take with me.
- I hoped this helped you understand the traits and values that I find important to me and important to any relationship that I am in.
- As I mentioned when I started this discussion I believe we can take one of two paths. Here is how these would work for me.
Path one – We do this together as a team.
o We sign up for therapy as a couple. We go in with an open mind. I will also sign up for my own individual therapy. I would suggest that same for you; however, that is your choice.
o The therapist that we will see is a solution based therapist. Cost should not be an issue. Whatever it cost it cost. I believe that our R is worth the cost. We can deduct it equally from the business.
o During therapy, we focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.
o While we do this first as a team, I think it is best that we go very slow, specifically around intimacy. Let’s talk about this with the counselor.
o If we agree to do this as a team, we are agreeing that no third parties are involved. In other words, I will not date and I would require the same commitment from you.
Path two – we proceed as business partners and work separately on ourselves.
o We will maintain our relationship strictly on a business level. This means, that any communication we have is related to the business.
o I will not discuss any relationship topics
o I will not engage in intimacy on any level.
o I will not go over to your place and I would respectfully ask you not to come over to mine. I believe it just confuses things and I would like to respect your wishes and have you respect mine.
o We focus on finalizing the business partnership agreement. I believe that we can have this wrapped up in 30 days.
o I will not discuss with you any personal matters – and I will not ask you any non-business related questions.
o I do not believe that “friendship” is best right now, we may consider this in the future but I do not see that for a long time. I think we can maintain a professional working relationship.
MM, I suspect that he will have some comments. Since I cannot be standing right next to you…I have list a few of the things he may say and how I would respond. (you asked me to be specific I am trying to be as specific as humanly possible).
BF’s responses:
BF - I need more time to figure out how to transfer your share of the company over.
MM Response should be: We will do this in 30 days. I believe this is enough time. You, the accountant, everyone has dragged there feet on this. MY financial security is tied to this and I will no longer wait.
BF – I thought things were going well…why are you pressuring me?
MM Response: I understand that this is how YOU feel. I feel differently. I finally have come to realize my value and I no longer care to wait around for you to finally decide to commit. You are committing or you are not. It really is black or white.
BF – There you go pushing again....
MM Response: I understand that you feel I am pushing. I am telling you what I need – if you consider that pushing I am sorry that you feel that way.
BF – Well how am I suppose to feel like I want to commit again with all of these rules?
MM Response: BF, I matter. So….ask yourself…why should I not ask for what I want. Does being in a one sided R appeal to you? Cause it does not appeal to me?
BF – Okay…so you are saying I can date other people?
MM Response: If you elect to do this with me then NO. If you elect to do this separately, then I am not going to tell you what to do. Your actions would say enough to me. If you are wondering what I plan to do….all I can say at this time is that my plan is to focus on continuing to be the best person I can be.
BF – Do we have any other options?
MM Response – NO.
BF – I feel pressured.
MM Response – I can understand how you may feel that way and I am sorry that you do. I have spent the past two years of my life, and I am not getting any younger, walking around you and waiting for you to realize what you have in front of you. I have come to the conclusion that maybe you are unable to give me what I deserve. I understand that. I am choosing to work on myself and let you figure your own stuff out. I guess I finally realized that I cannot change you. I cannot get you to see what is in front of you. I cannot get you to realize that….with you…..and your actions….I feel used.
BF – I never used you…I treated you good. YOU are applying pressure again. I told you…we will figure out the business stuff…I told you not to push me…
MM Response: I am sorry that you feel this way. IMO, we have wasted time trying to split the business. I have waited for a long time. I am not pushing YOU..I am giving you options to choose from – you are choosing not to do this together.
MM, I can try and mind read all day long. I have tried to explain as best as I can what I would do if I were you. Either way you decide to go…please MM, please for YOUR daughters sake….get into therapy asap.
I hope that this person is you and I understand if you cannot be that person or NOW is not the right time for you. That is fine.
These two sentences -- and the thoughts and concepts that preceded it -- are the "Pearlharbr" Approach!!!
*THAT* is how it's done!!!Starsky
Yep I went through the same thing.
Step 1 – MM post update. Ask for advice.
Step 2 – poster responds.
Step 3 – MM claims poster did not understand what she wrote
Step 4 – Poster responds
Step 5 – MM claims poster did not understand so she had to “clarify” so that the advice was “fact based”.
Step 6 – Poster responds
Step 7 – MM responds and says poster does not get it and cannot see what she sees.
Step 8 – Poster responds and tries another approach.
Step 9 – MM responds claims poster did not understand what she wrote and start to defend
Step 10 – Poster responds
Step 11 – MM says she gets it but that poster a, b and c, did not understand what she is trying to say.
Step 12 – Poster responds
Step 13- MM apologizes if she has annoyed a poster. She then proceeds to Step 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 or 11.
Step 14 – Poster stops posting to MM.