Wife Still in MLC but has now left #4

Hello everyone and I hope you all are having better days and making progress!

Well, I got a call from W last night (as soon as I saw it was her #, I knew it wouldn't be good!). So, once again the IRS sent my W info that they just shouldn't have sent her as all the info should be coming to me at my address, something that I thought they handled but they got the send to my address right but failed to address it to both of us so it was redirected to W's new address!

Well, of course W is all upset and worried. Why is this happening? What did I do to "make" this happen? (she tried so very hard to find some way to blame ME for this it was ridiculous!). I remained calm, I explained (for the 100th time it seems) what exactly was going on, what I have already done and what my plans are for when all the different issues are worked out (hire a tax attorney, that I have already spoken to a very good one that the owner of the startup I'm at has used for his many businesses, spent MANY hours on the phone talking to IRS, etc.). She refuses to relax, wants to not believe me when I tell her the facts, I refuse to allow her to get to me. Finally after she actually "seemed" (I say that because with an MLCer she could change before she finishes hanging up the phone!) to actually back down even said "I'm trusting you to take care of this....". WHAT! Did I just hear that correctly? You are "trusting" me about, well, anything? I tell her that I will keep her in the loop about any new things that I get from the IRS, any developments, etc.

I change the subject and I tell her that I saw her on the road when I was with D14 on our way to her mother's house to pick up food that she made for us (God bless my MIL, she cooks great meals and when I have D14, she always makes at least a day or two's worth of healthy meals for us!). W brightens up a bit, talks about what she picked up (she gets individual size ones of the same thing when I have D) and I swear she actually sounded "nice". I even made her laugh once or twice! Not only that, when there was a pause I was the one to say "Well, I have to go....". I also noticed on Sunday that my W was wearing a religious medal I had given her as a gift, when she came over. Since she left I haven't seen her wear any jewelry I have given her in the last 26 years! And a religious item to boot! She has refused since B-day to step foot in a church, even when her grandmother asked her why she wasn't going for Easter she told her "I'm a bad person Grammy, I don't belong in church", it's like she is afraid she will burst into flames if she stepped in a church!

After having her actually act (almost) like a human being while at my home this weekend (of course she was 3 hours late, took more than we agreed, stayed far enough away to avoid any incidental touches, etc. but hey, she didn't have a tantrum and run around the house screaming) and now these small steps, could it be that she is thawing, just a bit? Well, I really think it helps that she hasn't seen her father for the last 10 days. It seems the longer she is apart from him, the more decent she becomes. Of course, I DB'd my Butt off while she was around and I never said "no" to her about anything she wanted to take, stayed calm when she cut into my time that I told her was important (watching the football game), was friendly with her BFF and her BFF's boyfriend, helped her pack, etc. I really never gave her a chance to get upset and even (tried) to joke around with her like we used to do.

Between picking up D14 and her texts to me about money (or lack of me paying enough) I have stayed TOTALLY dark. I never initiate contact unless it's something like when I took my D to get her eyes checked, that kind of thing. Since her father hasn't been around to "make up" for all the bad he has done, I don't think W hasn't been doing much except working. I really think when she isn't with him and her new "mom", she has nothing but alone time and work time and of course time to think about whether she is any "happier" now that she has left me. Could it be that she has been able to make at least a little progress on her issues? Who knows. I certainly hope so, for her and our D's sake at least. It makes no difference to me and what I need to do for me. I just need to be thankful that the weekend and the IRS thing coming back up didn't go the way that they have in the past. With all that's going on with D14 right now, I'm so glad that W didn't add any more stress to my life, thank goodness.

Also, this morning things went much better with D14 getting up and ready to get to school on time. We still left 10 min's past when I wanted but we did make it on time. Yeah!! I was even able to get her to find time to at least take some food to eat in the car on the way. A definite victory compared with day one! Now I just need her to not expect me to wait for her at her mothers while she does her homework there. I just don't like being there and D14 needs to see that there is really no reason to go there every day when she is with me.

So, a slight improvement over the last couple weeks. Now I really badly need to get some GAL time in! It's harder when I have my D14 to find the time but it's been too long and I need it badly! Nice to finally not have only bad things to report! Thank goodness!

So happy to hear this report Matt.
Keep get better, keep focus on you and your D's.
Pointless to focus on W at this time.
Keep it light when dealing with W.

I actually called my H today before he went to work to ask about his cousin and how my H was feeling (H been sick with allergies). It was a nice pleasant call, he sounded tense at 1st (he usally calls me) but end of call he sounded relaxed.

From your last thread. I just wanted to emphasize this and call some additional attention to it.

Quote:

her relationship with her dad is the biggest thing she wants to "replay" now that she is in MLC!

Quote:

As her father I have to make sure that I don't make things worse. In fact it's up to me to do all I can to help her through this with the least amt. of pain and hurt

Now you are starting to see the light, my friend! A point of clarification though - not with the least amount of hurt. With the right amount of hurt and the tools to deal with this and anything else that comes after. Why? Because her family was torn apart. Her parents, the foundation of her ability to judge a "normal" relationship, have called it quits (not evenly, but you get the perspective.) The very people she relies on to teach her what "normal" and "healthy" mean, are not acting that way.

Has a way of turning one's life upside down as you've noted about your W. Not saying your childhood was roses (it could have been), but now you know what dysfunctional looks like and the repurcussions.

Parents do the best they can. As long as the focus is on the well-being of the child and their life, you have a good handle on things. If you deviate from that and focus on yourself, you de-value the relationship and destroy everything you have worked on until now.

You don't need both parents to cooperate to help the child. You don't need the child in close proximity to have an impact.

You need to clear your head of the immediate hurt and betrayal and look long term for the sake of your child.

To do otherwise? You'll impact the chances of the child having a bad relationship or a relationship that goes sour later. Can't predict, but wouldn't you want to give them every possible chance?

You see the impact and how it lasts for many years. It's incredibly hard to get away from family of origin issues. It's why you see in the bible where it talks about "..to the fourth generation." FO issues can last for generations.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to look at my grandkids and see my negative feelings (however appropriate they may seem at the time) to affect them.

And your daughters learn how a man should treat them by how you behave - toward them and toward their mother. Regardless of what she's done or if she is deserving.

Each time you're faced with something you have to do or say in front of your daughters, ask yourself how it may affect them 20 years from now. Before you speak if you can.

It'll take some practice to figure that out and make it natural. Don't beat yourself up for doing your best and sometimes failing. But know the consequences and do better the next time.

We're all human. I've made some mistakes with the kids. I know I regret those mistakes, but at the same time I'm not inhuman. I know my shortcomings. I also know the kids needed to know about "some" of the things and whether or not they are "normal" or other. What I've found is that they figured it out very quickly on their own. They've let slip some of their thoughts over the years. Additionally, I know they don't need me to tell them. It just adds to the pain if I were to do that and I am NOT willing to do that to my kids. At any cost. That cost has been high in some cases, but I consider it an investment in my kids futures and I'm very willing to pay it.

As for your W's behavior? Don't get used to it, Matt. If you can string some of those days together, it would be great. If not, it's still great. Because it's not your place to control it.

AJ

Good to hear from you 2B and AJ,
You are so right AJ. I have been lucky enough to have parents that have been married for 55 years. Even in my large, extended family of Aunts, Uncles and cousins, there are very, very few D's. It's just not something my family does. Family ties are very important. Total contrast to W's family and boy, has it hurt them. MIL lives alone and has never even dated since her D (26 years ago) and she's 70! BIL has been in jail several times, married a horrible woman whom he had 3 kids with, and was just arrested once again. Of course, you know about my W and her depression history and now her MLC. I really don't think my W could have avoided her MLC no matter what. The moment her father came back into her life, that just sealed it.

No way I want the same to happen to my D's that happened to my W or her family. I never wanted to be in this position but now that I am, I have no choice but to do everything in my power to help them not have to go through that.

Quote:

but now that I am

Let's get one thing straight Matt. You always have choices. To not, would make you a victim and powerless. But you have choices.

You are just choosing the harder of the paths. I admire that. I think that's very difficult and especially difficult to do so knowingly for the sake of your kids.

In your situation, I've made the same choices. I am incredibly grateful I did. Although I've been flexible and willing to learn (and boy have I), I've lived my core values. There were some values I thought I had that it turned out were really not that important. But my core values? I've lived those come hell or high water.

I look in the mirror and like the guy I see. I look at how I've treated my kids through this and I'm happy to say I've done my best to protect them. It hasn't always looked how I thought it would, but with patience and a larger perspective, I'm very happy for my actions and thoughts.

I won't lie to you. It's not easy. It's a narrow path my friend. Not many can do it. Not many can see the end game. The long term vision. Not many can transition from what they were to what they will be very easily. Some get stuck somewhere between. But seeing that long term vision and having the integrity to stick to it regardless of the immediate consequences to get the long-term benefit for our kids? Priceless!

I would do it again in a heartbeat at any cost.

I've had my moments, Matt. I've had my anger. Sometimes still do. But I've noticed that's more when I lose my perspective and long-term sight. It happens. But I've learned to quickly re-group and regain my perspective. I've learned what's important and what's not and I choose my kids well-being over anything else.

That long term vision is very helpful, Matt. It's why I've asked. There no right or wrong answer that I can give you. But I can say that if you have it, it'll help you greatly

AJ

Why, oh, way can't my W give me just a LITTLE break? I need to stop thinking about my D, her, my D's and think about making some money!

My lawyer called me and left a message. I can't believe what she is doing! She actually said that I cashed in my retirement "against her wishes" (yeah, at the time she had just told me that she would NEVER leave the M so I would get a vasectomy and the only thing she said was "Are you sure you should do that? Maybe it would be better if you didn't." I told her that we would need the extra cash and that was the only conversation we had on it). If she had said "Well, I'm thinking of leaving you so..." I wouldn't have done it! She is claiming that she is paying ALL of D's expenses, school lunches, medical, etc. Well, so far she has paid $30 toward school lunches and only because she didn't tell me HOW to add to it! She paid $50 for contacts (my D has glasses, she doesn't NEED contacts!) and $40, toward a DR. vist! (that came out of a HSA that by rights is community property). I bought school clothes for her and she had plenty of clothes when my W left just 2 months ago!

I can't believe her. From the start of this she said I could keep the house. It was why I agreed to let her put my D14 into the school closest to HER, (I thought if I had the house it would give SOME stability to my D14 and D19!) I am the one put out by her, driving 30 miles every day I have D14 for school! It was why I let her keep ALL of our best furniture. I just can't believe her! And to think I let her back into my home last weekend. She did it with no notice because she knew I hadn't heard her lawyers response yet and she knew if I had I wouldn't have let her! She can't be trusted. She was the one who said that D doesn't hurt kids as long as the parents behave well! This is not behaving well. This is lying and thieving! I just can't be nice to her at all anymore! It just backfires on me every time. I don't want to be like that. I don't want to act like this is some kind of "war" but that is what she is turning it into!

Every time I think that maybe, just maybe things are quieting down, she does something like this! NO MORE! I need to fight for what is mine, I'm done with the selfishness. She may be in MLC and not be able to see what she is doing but I can! And unless the court buys into her lies (which is possible. Women seem to have the upper hand in this state!) she will succeed!

I also found an old journal that I kept when my W first became depressed.(W wanted to go through her books and I found it in a book case) I only read a small part of it but it brought back all the memories of how she acted, the way she hurt our D's, me, herself! The way she was so unable to function. How she stopped doing anything, no cooking, no cleaning, no picking up the kids from school, all she did was play video games, sleep and moan about her life and how unfair everything is! All that pain came flooding back. The worry if she would still be alive since she kept saying how she wasn't sure she wanted to go on. The days I got calls from the school when she was still picking them up to say she just didn't show up and they couldn't reach her. (Turned out she fell asleep at her mothers house). How my older D (who was 13 at the time) started acting out because her mother wouldn't pay any attention to her except to yell at her! It made me feel like maybe I SHOULD be glad to be rid of her! Now this!

I'm tired. I'm done "standing". I'm done being the nice guy. The amount of work that this house (which is paid for) needs now, let alone over the next 4 years, will more than offset any amount she would get if it was sold today, as is (if it even could be!). It needs a new roof, new A/C, new floors in most of the house. The septic will need work. The foundation is in need of repair. Now, instead of making it nicer and "my own" I will have to put my money into it and she will benefit! No way! Not after all I gave up. I can't stand this any more. I can't believe this is the person who I loved and cared for for all those years. Through years of depression/anxiety. After this I don't think I will EVER be able to have any kind of relationship with her. I can't see co-parenting with her with the attitude she has had so far. I am starting to think I should bring up her mental state in relation to being able to care for her D14. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to think that maybe she will be able to handle things on her own but now I wonder. If she is willing to lie, to say she is paying "all" of D's expenses which to date don't add up to much and have come from community funds (except the $30 in lunches) and really believe she is being put out by this, I'm starting to think she is losing her grip on reality..again! It was just several months ago when she said that she wasn't sure she "..wanted to go on.." just like when she was so badly depressed. Well, I don't think she ever got over her depression and I know she wasn't able to care for even herself back them, let alone a 14 year old D!

Tell me, am I not seeing this right? Am I just angry due to her not keeping her word so not seeing this right? Or am I right in thinking it's time to bring out everything. The depression, the fact that she expressed that she may not want to live just months ago? That she is still on AD's (as far as I know at least) and how she behaved when she was at her worst? I didn't want to do that. I wanted to do this in a way that gave her the benefit of the doubt. I let her have so much. Let her have her way over and again and now this! Tell me that I am doing the right thing and not just acting out of her being so very unfair. She has gone back on every thing we have agreed to now from the start. Just like with the vasectomy she just "changed her mind" I suppose after I have given up everything already that was important.

What do I do in your opinions? Do I stop trying to be more than fair now that i KNOW she is willing to lie (although since she is in MLC she may actually believe her lies are true! God knows she has rewritten history so very much and seems to believe her version!) or do I stop and start fighting back. I'm at a cross-roads people. Help me see which way is the best way to move forward!

Matt,

MLC or not, W is really crossing your boundaries and pushing it. We've all said here previously and will again here: talk with your L and push back against W. It's been months since you've not acted with our advice.

What can we do, Matt? We cannot and will not twist your arm. You are the one that has to make the decision here. What's best for you and your DDs?

Then work with your L with that goal in mind and yes...W will GET MAD at you. Tuff chit.

Matt,
Sorry to read this update.

To me it sounds like your W has got a lot of work to do, and she hasn't even started yet.
I didn't remember the part about her depression---it sounds like you've been dealing with a difficult R for quite some time.

Yes, it's reasonable to be angry and frustrated when you discover that you can no longer trust your life partner. I think that's where you're at.

She doesn't sound trustworthy and you need to protect yourself and your children from her actions.

I'm with Wonka. Time to call in the legal team and put a stop to this. All the DBing in the world isn't going to protect your financial assets.

As Wonka said, she'll get mad. So what? What is she going to do?
Lie to you, cheat on you, go into your house without your permission and take things that aren't hers?

Sounds like all that is water under the bridge.
From what I can see, she's not really holding too many cards here.

You go ahead and play your hand out and see what happens next.
Time to draw that line in the sand.

---GGG

Just my opinion!

Hi Wonka,
I did talk to my lawyer. I pushed back by saying that I should get the house because I had to pay for her law suit from before we were married, that I cashed in my retirement so that we had more to live off of, this was her response to all that. That I only cashed in my retirement over her "protests". That she is paying a "majority" of D14's expenses...even though she has only been gone for less than 2 months and the only 'expenses" were $30 in lunches and going to the Dr. one time (along with the contacts). She just doesn't admit to the things I have done like take off of work because she didn't tell me D14 failed her school eye test a month before and had to see the eye Dr. BEFORE going back two days later. Or the fact that she has taken 90% of the antiques. My lawyer seems to think she has good points and much of the reason I allowed her to do things like refinance her car and put my D14 into school near her was because she LIED about not asking for the house! That will be hard to prove in court especially since she seems willing to lie about things.

I know I shouldn't have thought this but I really didn't think my W would go this low! Her sense of entitlement has become so very strong. She doesn't care that I have put myself out by picking up my D even when she is with my W. That I have spent much more of my income on our D14 as a % of what I make than she has. That for 90% of our M she REFUSED to work, even when the girls were in school and she easily could have. That for the last 8 years she wasn't a wife or mother but a selfish jerk that cared only about herself and her friends and having her daddy back in her life. What value does the court place on these things?

I had my lawyer file a writ to stop her from coming to my home when I'm not here but she had already taken most of what she wanted except the big stuff and now most of that is gone but I want it back now.

This whole idea that I get to live here until D14 is "18 years and a day" is all her fathers idea. Now I find out that she has been talking about this to our D14. On the way home from school I said to her that we may need to sell the house and asked how she felt about that. When she asked why I explained what her mom is wanting to do and she said "Yea, I knew about that. Grandpa Doug said to do that."! I, by believing her lies, have set myself back and now I find myself behind the 8 ball.

I guess the biggest thing to ask is about talking to the court about my W's mental state. I wanted to avoid that as much as possible but I guess I will just have to use EVERY means at my disposal including bringing this up. It just feels like something that is not the "high road" but it will show the court that she can't seem to keep to any agreements and why.

I'm trying to fight back but at the same time stick to the "high road". But by doing this I may find myself losing.

Thanks GGG(G),
It seems like my W understood this when she first decided to leave. Now that daddy got involved she has forgotten all that she put us through and all that I did for her. Time to get out the big stick and draw that line! Thanks!

Matt,

What are you doing with all this rage? I hear rage. A lot of it. What are you going to do with it? How are you going to let it out?

Right now, it sounds like you are a pinata and she just keeps taking swings with her big ol' bat.

You have every right to be angry. You have been treated terribly. I'm so sorry all of this has happened. I know you must feel powerless, but you're not.

What a about a time out from W? What about no contact except via email and no other communication or contact? I think you need to detox. Just my .02 cents.

Standing doesnt mean you give into everything and anything. This should never be at the expense of you.

The divorce is a business deal in which you should be fair AND protect yourself and your children. You should act in a way that is condusive to who you want to be.

You keep having expectations where she is concerned. You have to stop that and do what you need to do.

Be the man you want to be. Show your children how to navigate through life's problems with dignity and strength.

Do what you need to in order to take care of you and them.

Understand that she is not going to act in the way you think she should. She is in crisis. That means she is all about her. Succks but that's the way it is.

You need to really and truly get your mind around that, Matt, or you are going to just keep going round and round.

Know what I hear? I hear you had expectations that weren't met. And you're angry about it. You expected her to keep her word and she didn't. You are angry about that.

But if you step back a little, you may see the bigger picture. You may be able to see what's important to you, vs. the expectations of how your W will act. Vs. what you want and what you need.

Your marriage as you know it is over. Period. Your W is not somebody you know nor can trust. Period.

So now what? Do you get angry and aggressive? Do you become or remain passive?

Those are really the questions you're asking, Matt.

But honestly, it comes down to what you need going forward.

Quote:

Am I just angry due to her not keeping her word so not seeing this right?

Yes, you are angry. Rightfully so, but what to do about it?

If you look at the longer term view, I think you'll see what you need to do that's right for you, vs. what you may have been doing for the short term.

The sooner you stop believing she's going to keep her word (a nut-job keeping their word? During a divorce? Really??) the sooner you can move to do what is right for you and your daughters.

Your W is going to get angry. She's going to fight for what she wants. She is going to try all kinds of thing to get them. She's going to blame you, make up things you may have never done, etc. She'll act nicely when she wants something. In short, she'll continue to do what has worked for her in the past.

I suggest you rip those buttons out of the socket and remove that ability. The money? The house? Things Matt. In time, she'll let those things go if they are too difficult to go after.

Figure out what you will and won't do and the cost you're willing to pay to do or prevent them. Then take your actions. Without emotions.

In negotiation, emotion is your enemy. Not the other person. Emotion. And time is your friend. Remember that, Matt. It's important.

Start with expecting her to do whatever she is going to do. You'll either have your expectations met or be pleasantly surprised, but you'll stop worrying about it. You'll stop thinking and acting like she is going to be reasonable etc. She's already proven that's not going to happen.

Remember also that she is trying to heal herself. Sometimes at your expense. You aren't helping if you enable that. You aren't helping if you are trying to help.

It's time for you, Matt, to do what is right for you and reset your expectations to zero.

Expect her to try and take advantage. Expect her to lie. Expect her to try whatever she can to get what she wants at this point in time.

But whatever you do, step back and see the bigger picture before it kills you with anger and frustration. It's not worth that.

AJ

Matt. Sorry about the latest developments. None of it is surprising considering what you have posted about your wife.

The time out sounds like a good idea. Keep communication to a minimum and only about your ds. Let all the business of D be handled by lawyer.

What do you think will happen if you bring out your journals about her depression. Has lawyer advised about this? How much do your ds already know about her condition?

Heather, Ur, AJ...thank you. You are so very right. It's just so hard to want to do the right thing, take the high road and at the same time "take off the gloves". It's just so hard to look at my W and see the evil, valueless person she has become. The unbelievable selfishness. I tried so very hard to see her as in "crisis", in pain. Now I need to forget all that, realize that like a drowning person her pain and fear will take everyone around her that tries to save her down with her. She will listen to a man that took everything from her mother, her brother and even herself. He tells her that she's just looking out for herself, that she, like him, "deserves" everything she can get and she has become just like him. She has forgotten her own mother and now calls the woman who broke up her parents M "mom". She uses the fact that she knows I will do what's best for my D14 to just blow her off, knowing I will be there to take up the slack without a single thought. Come to my home, eat my food, pretend to be decent so I would allow her to get even more "stuff" that she doesn't need or deserve. She feels zero guilt, zero thoughts that she was "wrong" to leave a 21 year M or any thought of the damage she has caused. I will not allow her to just get away with this. I will use any means I can find to stop her.

Julie,
I have been trying to not speak to her about the D at all and just allow my lawyer to take care of it. I will not initiate any contact with her that's certain. I wouldn't have anything good to say anyway. As for the journals and calling my W's mental state into the process, I haven't yet spoken to him about that. I just found the journals this last weekend before I heard from my lawyer. I will bring it up tomorrow when I speak with him (or his assistant). My D's know about it. My D19 remembers her mothers actions and to this day thinks of her mother as "undependable". She remembers waiting for her mother to pick her up when she was in Middle school until it was dark and she was all alone because she "forgot" or was "busy". As for D14, she doesn't remember very much as she was younger and didn't get the brunt of her mothers sickness. Right now I really think my D14 likes the fact that her mother has more income to spend on her than I do and that she lives so close to her school. It helps her think things are fine with her mom because I have come to rescue her when her mother has not cared enough to bother putting herself out for her. Like giving her rides to school and picking her up when it was really hot or raining. She just sees that I will be there to take up the slack when her mother doesn't bother, just like I have been doing for years. Of course she doesn't mind staying with her mother, she knows she still will have me if she needs me! Also it's only been a month that she has been switching, too soon to realize what a pain it is. Too soon to see that her mother wants to control where she goes for holidays, when she can go on vacations, where she has to be and when. One of the things we agreed to was she wouldn't put all those type of things in the decree. That we could be "flexible" but just like everything else, she put her every move in the decree! As for what she will think if her mothers mental state comes out, I guess it's better than being stuck with a mother unable to handle taking care of her!

Thanks everyone. I'm beginning to get a handle on this. Just another ruined day because of my W's crap! I will not let her into my head anymore. I will insist that my lawyer start to fight harder!

Matt,

Look at your response and critique it as if someone else here wrote it and what would be your response to them. Look at your words describing your wife and ask if these are the words of someone who has detached. What would be your advice to that person? After reading your own response would you ask this person why they spend so much of their response writing about their wife?

Matt, you are building up so much anger within yourself and we all know this by your venting here. Venting is good as long as it is not consuming you. Right now you are and you are spewing all around. You are allowing things to happen to kep feding that anger. You need to let it go some how.

Let me make a few suggestions. I would suggest that every time you get angry at your wife that you write it out on a piece of paper and put it in a jar. At the end of the week empty the jar out and read all your notes for the week. If any are important towards your divorce set those aside in a file. Regarding the remainder, come here and post one venting post for the week and get it out of your system. Once you have posted your vents then go get a match and light your notes on fire to remove them from your life. The remainder of the week vow to only post about what you are doing for yourself and your daughter without a single word about your wife. It will be hard, but your really need to let most of it go or it will eat you up. This doesn't mean that if a crisis comes up that you can't write about it, just don't make everything a crisis.

Matt,

There is a light at the end of your tunnel. You don't happen to see it at this point because it's covered up by the anger, by the disdain you have for your wife.

AJM has laid it out for you. Take the high road, do what is necessary for your kids. He can show you the map but.....he can't walk it for you. I have been there as well similiar to AJM. I can look back and say it was hard but now looking back it was worth it. My kids see the lessons they learned from it. I didn't even have to tell them. THEY SAW IT FIRSTHAND.

BE THAT GUY!! DAMN, you so hard on yourself. I get it that your wife is a nutjob. I had one too! but.....you put to much power into her actions! Only you can take that power away and put it back into yourself.

It starts with a step in right direction.

Mirage

Rough night last night! After finally getting to sleep, I was woken up by a very loud mouse chewing somewhere very near by! Ah, the fun of country living!

Thanks LT and miage,
I do understand what you are saying and as I try to step back, lower the anger levels, detach, I find myself having to fight battles that I already have fought , that I thought were behind me. It seems I just can't make any progress forward and must keep having to go back and re fight things that I truly thought were settled. It doesn't help that I found my old journals and have been reading just how much pain and trouble my W put all of us through back in 2006-2010 when she was "clinically depressed". I had forgotten just how bad things had become with my W. How she stopped being anything. She wasn't a wife, she wasn't a mother, she was hardly a person! Without me she couldn't have survived, she would have had to be put away or go stay with a relative as she couldn't take care of herself, let alone 2 D's under 13 years old. I can't wrap my head around the fact that I had real reasons to leave her back then. No one would have blamed me for just giving up on her. But I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to abandon her when she needed me most, no matter how she was acting. What's my 'reward'? A selfish, two faced overly entitled child who holds her breath if she doesn't get her way and is reliving her childhood with a new mommy and a daddy that loves her. Who wants to have her d14 but not do what she needs for her, she can still count on me for that.

So far in this D, it's like the end of our M. She does whatever she wants, doesn't take responsibility for the day to day things for her D14 and gets away with it because she knows I'll still step up and do the things for her just like I have always done. I only allowed her to put my D14 into a school 30 miles away because from the start she said I was going to get the house. I thought that the fact that my D14 would at least have something that hadn't totally changed in the last year, an island of stability in a sea of change. She lives 7 days in one place, the next 7 30 miles away! She can never settle down and just have some stability in her life! It's like she is always half packed and after only 3 weeks is already getting tired of it.

All my greatest fears are coming true, one by one. My W isn't stepping up to be a "better" mother and is using the fact that I will take care of doing things like take her to the eye Dr., pick her up for school, even when she is with her mother and she should be doing these things, she has taken advantage of me trying to be reasonable "for the sake of the kids". It just seems like I'm being punished for trying to be a good husband and father.

I need to take away her power. To do that I need to think in ways that I'm not used to thinking. Like how to get over on my W. How to lie to her face while I'm doing the opposite behind her back, like she is doing to me. It's not in my nature to act this way. I'm a very up front do what I say kind of person. I need to think outside my usual ways and think what will make my W understand just how awful she is acting. I still refuse to put my D14 in the middle even though it seems her mom isn't above doing that. Other than that, I will need to do whatever it takes. If that means hurting my W by bringing out things she'd rather keep private, that is her fault for backing out of her agreements. If you can't keep your word, you shouldn't expect to not have to pay.

I need to sit down and rebutt everything that my W's lawyer said in his response. Just the facts and not the distortions. I need to find my calm center and just take this step by step.

Thanks guys. I really do know that I'm tearing myself up inside by letting all this get to me. I just find it so very hard that my W no longer can think of what's best for anyone but herself, even her D14 isn't as important as her getting what she feels so entitled to for no real reason. At first I thought that maybe she really felt that she was doing what SHE felt was best for her D but now I know it was never that. Time to just get centered and act.

Matt,

^^^^^^^^^^^ what you wrote up there.

Word for word describes my EXW.

What's the difference? I don't give her the power. I took it back. Was it easy? H-ll no it was not. Did it take some time? Yes it did, too long but......

When you get there it is worth it. You stop living a life in reaction to them. You start living your own life on your own terms.

I'm not perfect. I still reflect very rarely about my exw's life but its in relation to how my son's or daughter are still affected. I'm past that but they are not totally past that. So I reflect on how they may be thinking and I validate and support them in dealing with a crazy, insane woman who they know used to be there mom.

Keep trying everyday to take that power you have given her and it will slowly flow back to you.

Mirage

Thanks mirage!
One step at a time! It would be so much easier if it wasn't for my D14 being stuck in the middle but that's how it is and I must deal with reality. I will say this...when D14 came home with me Saturday she was in a foul mood, hated her school, hated everything! Over the last week she has been with me she has started smiling and is more talkative and yesterday hung out with a new friend after school at Denny's and I picked her up there. Just seems that she is much more happy and open when with me. She is what keeps me going! She and her sister are my muses and I know that whatever happens, I will always be part of their lives because I am there for them now when they really need me.

Today I take my power back!

Matt,

If its any consolation. My daughter just turned 16. She is in the middle sometimes because she chooses to be. I can see that it hurts her at times. She still loves her mom, but.....its really not her mom anymore, its an imposter.

I have to let her go to choose what relationship she has with her Mom, but.......... My daughter has said you are always there for me, without you this would have a lot tougher. The actions that I chose made all the difference to her. It give her the chance to try to have a decent relationship with her Mom always knowing she has a strong independent parent to catch her if she needs it.

It is sad at times to watch a young person struggle when they know something is wrong. Remember growing up at that age. a lot of emotions flowing.

Listen, validate her, walk away when shes in a mood. DB her. it works.

one step at a time.

Mirage

Hi Matt,
I read your thread yesterday but could not post at the time. Felt happy for you

.. so today I returned with that in mind only to see that your tone has changed. Sorry about the turn of events. What I get from this is to not have expectations. She's not changing (at the moment anyway).

>>also found an old journal that I kept when my W first became depressed.<<
keep that safe, you never know what it might mean (?)in future, but don't read too much - its hurtful. Now is not the best time!

>>The amount of work that this house (which is paid for) needs now, let alone over the next 4 years, will more than offset any amount she would get if it was sold today, as is (if it even could be!). It needs a new roof, new A/C, new floors in most of the house. The septic will need work. The foundation is in need of repair.<<
am in very similar sitch, i can empathize. an mlcer, money concerns & 'reno works' to be done. (got plumbing probs just today and did repairs earlier this year, but wait there HAD 2 b MORE!)

>>If she is willing to lie<<
Matt they lie. you know that. have NO expectations.
my h is being nice ...the 1st thing that I thought of today was, is he 'being nice'? Or 'ACTING nice?'. He is GOOD & I know the lying is going on big time. I just find it hard to believe any of this nice behaviour is real - makes me sad but there is very little trust (if any). I wouldn't recognize a baby step right now even if it looked me in the eye ... a straight case of h crying "wolf" too many times. Your W has done the same - do not let her actions keep 'surprising' you.

re your w.
I think in cases where there was so much (!!) dyfuntion within a family, the issues are so colossal that time is really needed. Your w needs LOTS of it , so much undoing of what was done, has to take place.

We/LBS lived/w ... & they/MLCer were 'functioning,' nothing was 'out of the ordinary' as such. However, we/LBS were on 'timers', on borrowed time before their poor, abused minds & hurt feelings would catch up with them, overwhelm them and strike out at us in the process. This is 'real inner violence & turbulence.'

They can't remember so much because so much is vile & messy, not 'clear cut,' organized ... 'logical' ... should we have any expectations given the enormity of the mess?

>>I'm starting to think she is losing her grip on reality..again!<<
Again? this is actually the other way around Matt. She experiences a 'warped' reality more often than not I suspect ... & drops into 'reality' only now & again ... I thinks she appears to be in reality until 'tested' and not in a 'state of rest' (nothing to upset her world, her narcissism). She isn't starting to lose her grip - she lost it long ago.

>>don't think she ever got over her depression<<
you're right Matt - I'm no pro or db vet here, but this is probably true (& don't forget it!

) It's probably worse sometime, 'better' at other times ... but depressed/depression? >>> ongoing!!!

>>She has gone back on every thing we have<<
written above!! don't count on morals to be in play here. They don't seem to have any during this time. I have read that they live 'emotionally,' which would explain behaviour. If one is logical or can rationalize a sitch, that's different - you write as if she is 'logical'. That's NOT the case here. I don't know if mlcer realizes if they are 'going back on everything' - I don't even know if they really 'know' what the heck they're going back on or or off or what ? They seem to be reactive when pushed (not getting THEIR WAY), so self centered (prob. self exteem, DESPERATION re life gone wrong for them, so it's ME, ME, & ME!!!) & maybe that's what creates the blinders. Why wouldn't she 'go back'/her word, if it doesn't suit her another time? She is not seeing anything, she's just feeling everything she WANTS for herself. And you're in the crossfire (!) .. 'oops!'(!!) at which time, she gathers her skirts walks over your body (since they have the sensitivity of a slab of concrete for the LBS) and moves on.

you cannot expect: (re W, above)
NOT to go back on
NOT over depression
NOT losing grip
NOT lying (this one's my fav

) It's so unreal, wreckless ..

No expectations, ok?
This is going to happen over & over & over again - for one reason. SHE IS NOT BETTER.

----------
other post / #2487537
>>I have spent much more of my income on our D14 as a % of what I make than she has<<
It doesn't matter from what I have observed. It's 'tactical' type of dishonesty - spend/use yours, preserve theirs ... (remember, 'morals')

wife's mental state:
prepare for this one, get advice.
This is sensitive, the mother of Ds. Just be informed re how to handle. don't know how to advise here

The thing is, it would be the truth. W is all lies. This would hurt but that's MLC for you - all pain! The truth will be freeing in long run if handled tacticfully, IF you decide to go this route.

take care, pb

Matt,
sorry about delayed post above. It was on screen tab for awhile, I edited not long ago & submitted. Since time does not stand still (oh no!

), quite a few posts accumulated!

All my greatest fears are coming true, one by one. My W isn't stepping up to be a "better"
Now you're talking!! As long as her trigger is around, so is your 'MLCer W'!

I need to take away her power. To do that I need to think in ways that I'm not used to thinking. Like how to get over on my W. How to lie to her face while I'm doing the opposite behind her back, like she is doing to me. It's not in my nature to act this way. I'm a very up front do what I say kind of person.

Don't know what to say here. I never thought of this type of '180'

or reverse psych for MLCer ... am not a vet' as u know ...

I know that W is wearing on you. You have been standing for so long are are fatigued. You've received good advice - focus on daughters, self, take time outs for yourself.

Going to post NOW before this ends up in a place long after the intended post!

pb

Matt, I am responding to a message from you on my post. How did you deal with those times your wife was out till all hours, knowing she was hiding something? If you were able to ignore it so she wouldn't get to you, can you please tell me how?

Hi, Matt. I hope you are well. Just checking in...

Hi mighty!
Well, I guess you can say that I'm OK. Still feeling anger but not as intense. I had my D14 with me until Sunday and I always feel better when she is here is with me. Today on my way home from work I got a call from D14. She had locked herself out of her mom's house and asked if I could come and get her. I was going to be passing by so, of course, I wasn't about to let her stay locked out of the house. So, I asked her if she had called her mother to let her know and what she had said. So, D14 says that her mother told her to call ME! Umm....ok, as far as she knew I was already past her home as I worked a little late today. I get to my D14 and I ask her what she wants to do. She said that her mom told her to just take her to her work and she can wait there until my W was done. BUT my D begged me to let her just get the key and take her back because "I don't want to wait for mom to get done. I'll have to wait there until 8:00!". So, I ask her if her mother leaves her alone until that late every night. Her answer was "Yes, but I don't mind. In fact I like it. I get the house to myself.".

So, just like I thought, my W is acting the same as she has for the last few years. She is putting her work ahead of her D14! Look, I know that the worst time for a teenager, the time when they get into trouble is the period from after school is out until a parent gets home. With no supervision teens are going to get into trouble. When her new friends at her new school find out that they can go to my W's house after school and no adults are going to be there, they will start pressuring my D14 to come over there. All it takes is one bad kid with the wrong things on their mind and trouble follows! I knew this was going to happen!

What I don't get is why my W even cares to have D14 living with her if she is going to do this! My W doesn't HAVE to work late every day. It's her choice to do that. It's her choice to be the one that they always ask to work extra because she will never say no! My W is so afraid of being seen as not part of the team, she gets stepped on at her work all the time! This is what she did when she and I lived together and when I asked her to please try and say no she told me she wanted to work late because "It's so unhappy here at home". Of course, she wanted to stay at work because being with me was making her unhappy! Now I'm not there and she is still doing the same thing! She wants so badly to have split custody and when she gets it, this is what she does?

So, I took D14 to W's work. She picked up the key, I took her to get ice cream and took her back to mothers house. So, my W didn't have to be put out once again. It took an extra 2 hours out of my day and about 20 miles but W didn't have to do a thing! So, did my W text me a thank you? Did she at least acknowledge my effort? Nope. Nothing. Zip, nada, not a word. Once again, I ride to the rescue so W doesn't have to miss a second of work and she doesn't even have the decency to say "thanks" or even acknowledge the effort. Same thing she did the last couple years when I would get a call at the last min. asking me to pick up both our kids from school (they went on opposite sides of town) and that took me an extra 1.5 hours and I wasn't able to do anything like meet with friends or go to the gym! Then on B-day my W tells me one of the things she wanted me to do was go out and do things on my own without her. How was I supposed to do that when I had to always be the one who took care of things at home?

Even now that my W and I don't live together, even though she has taken my D14 away from me and the only home she has ever known, my W is still using me to get out of having to be a decent, caring mother. Worse is that even if I brought this up in court, my lawyer says that in my state I will not get custody unless my w is smoking crack WITH my D14. It just is how it is where I live. He says I'm "lucky" to get 50/50 being a father since here mothers are always awarded custody. If my D14 would tell the court she wants to live with me that would change things but just the way she defended her mother saying she "liked" that she worked late, I know that won't happen. Of course she 'likes" it when she doesn't need her mom (like when she gets locked out of the house, say) but because she knows I will always be there for her she doesn't have to hurt her mom's feelings AND she knows I will still be there for her like I always have.

For my W to be leaving my D14 home alone every night is bad enough. telling her to call me is bad enough. But for me to ride to her rescue and her to not even have the decency to text a "Thanks for doing this so I didn't have to leave work early" just is so RUDE! God, I really hate how selfish these WAS's become. If I was a "friend who did the same thing, my W would be so thanking them and saying how much she appreciated the effort, etc. For the person whose life she has turned upside down? Well, it seems I'm not even worthy of a simple text message "thank you"!

Matt,

The point is you got to spend more time with your daughter. You got to show her what someone who steps ups is like as a parent. All the other stuff about your wife is a moot point.

I get it that your wife is not who you want her to be, or make the choices you want her to make......but think about this, you would definitely not want her making choices for you.

Keep being the rock with your actions.

Mirage

Matt,

You keep looking for her to acknowledge what you do and then beat your head against a brick wall each time she doesn't.

Why do you keep hurting yourself?

Why do you keep looking?

Wouldn't it be better to stop and be pleasantly surprised if she does?

Good vent, Matt. I know, so frustrating. Try not to get so hung up on what w is thinking and doing. She's screwed up. Nothing we can do about that. Her reasons for insisting d stays with her and she works till 8? Who knows.

Here is the thing: You are there for your d when she needs you. That is major. She will always remember that. Right now, she is 14 and the only thing she thinks is that you should be. Remember, you are giving her security. As long as you continue being there for her, you are making a statement without saying a word.

Trust me, Matt. You are giving her a feeling inside that she does not even realize. If you told her to call her mother and that it's not your time, yadda, yadda, she would have a totally different feeling. D14 knows she can count on you. That's a good thing. She will always know that; she will always remember that.

Your w- well, she is missing out. Someday she will look back and realize that she should have said "NO" to work. D14 is more important and she WONT be 14 forever. That time does not come back. Again, nothing you can do about her... you just be there. You get it. You know it's important.

I'm just going to share this:
All spring, xh didn't really have much time for the kids. He made "time" when he had it. Since October (almost a year), I have asked him to do 2 things. I asked him once to pick up s17 from work at 6PM. He waited until 6PM to respond and texted something like, "This is your day, you can do it." What a joke. Every day was "my day" and I did tell him later that I am always a parent, not on certain days. (BTW, on "his" days, I still did EVERYTHING- I don't think he has had dinner with the kids since we went on vacation in February).

The second thing, well actually I DIDN'T ask him (so I only asked for 1 thing). XH said he was going to take the kids for ice cream. D was just about to get out of practice, so when he came to p/u s, I just said he could just get her now.

S was back about 10 min later and was putting ice cream in the freezer for d. I was like, "What the heck? Isn't xh p/u d?" S was like, I don't think so, he told me to give this to her. I tried calling xh bc I hadn't planned on p/u d and was in the middle of something. He did not answer. I had to text another dad and ask him to bring d home.

I saw xh the next day and I asked why he didn't p/u d or answer my call. He said he had to go tanning and couldn't pick d up and didn't answer my call bc he was in the tanning bed.

At this point, I'm like, OK, I'm being punked, right?!

Nope, I know now, it was a couple days later he went on a cruise with his little sweetheart and her kid.

Sorry Matt, didn't mean to ramble, but I do have a point to this. Now, my kids don't even want to bother with xh. They know he is unreliable. I think xh now regrets some of this. He can't take it back and he has a lot of ground to cover to reestablish a r with them.

I know it is different since your d14 lives with w, but my point is that d14 still has feelings inside from this, whether she is acknowledging them now or not. You are giving her the sense of security and she knows she can count on you. I don't think you would want it any other way (outside of this sitch, of course). That will always be there in her because you will be there for her. Forget w and her shenanigans, there is nothing you can do about that. She will regret it one day, and d will realize you were a rock for her. You are the calm in the storm. Don't get swept into the storm, Matt. D14 needs you.

Matt, LT just gave me a thought. We are supposed to "expect nothing" but what if you changed that a little bit? What if you expected the worst from w. What if you expected crazy? Then if it's not, it is a pleasant surprise (credit to LT, here!!!)

Mighty,

I think when they say expect nothing they mean nothing that should be normal. I am working on this myself like probably everyone here. We all have to expect the new norm. Whether its craziness, indifference, checked out, or even outright hostility. If we expect this then it won't phase us or through us off our game. Its part of detaching that is a struggle for everyone.

Hi mirage, LT and Mighty,
Thanks everyone. I realize that you are all right on the mark. It has just been a very stressing few days and this was just the "cherry on top" as they say. I got ANOTHER notice from the IRS that contradicts a pervious notice, I am having to write a "response" to the letter my W's lawyer sent to my lawyer saying why she should get to just allow me to live at the house until D14 turns "18 and one day" and then have to sell it and give her 1/2 (that letter was so full of bull poop it was ridiculous!) and I'm not making as much progress at work as I NEED to. I think all that added up to me being more "upset" than I should have been.

I know you're right about my D14 knowing that having me there is important for her, right now especially. She has been put through so much over the last year and a half and it hurts me to know that she doesn't have a mother that cares enough about her to just be there for her.

It was my greatest fear in all this....what would happen to my D's if my wife D me. Well, my answer is my D19 is now living with her boyfriend because she refuses to live with her mom and I can't afford to help her get a car (D19 really doesn't want to live with him but would just be stuck at home as I live in the country and there are no buses or anything. If she lives with me she would NEED a car. It hurts that I can't help her with that!) and now I know that my W is leaving her teenage D alone every night while she works "off the clock" and doesn't even get paid for it! I also was just reading someone else's sitch about how they aren't sure if they should start mediation because of how it would impact the kids....boy, do I understand how she feels!

The thing that upsets me ISN'T that my W doesn't have the decency to even acknowledge the effort. That I actually expected, as that's par for the course. It's just that there is nothing I can do about how she is treating my D. That it seems perfectly OK with the courts that when my W has my D14, she will leave her alone, not bother to take her to school, move her so far away from me so it is a 30 mile trip to get her to school when she's with me, really just not care much about what is best for her and just allow my W to have custody 50% of the time.

Since my W went back to work after her depression, this is how she acted. She just stopped being a wife and mother and her work became all she really cared about. All her friends are at her work. All her thoughts are about her work. All her time is spent there or going out with the same people she works with. She works 60-70 hours a week but only gets paid for 40, sometimes even less if her patient load is low. How is it that my W can see this as the life she wants to live? How can she NOT see that her D's need her in their lives? And the biggest question of all, why does my W even want to fight me on custody? Why can't she just see that D14 is better off living with me and that's that?

I know what is coming down the road soon and it scares me. At some point there will come a time when D14 is going to rebel, get into trouble, do something stupid because that is what teenagers do. It is part of growing up. The thing is that it's how the parents handle that that will either see that teen potentially ruin their life or if it just becomes a bump in the road, a lesson learned. I now know I can't count on my W to help her D through those "bumps" and I won't be around half the time to even be able to help. That is one of the reasons that I never believed in D. My W can say all she wants that D doesn't hurt kids but she's wrong. It takes away the stability of having a team to help them when they need that help most and it really hurts knowing that I just couldn't stop my W from ending a 21 year M. That I really, really tried to keep my m strong, not just for me but because I know that is what my D's needed and I failed. Not because of anything I did or didn't do but because my W just stopped trying herself. Because of my W's MLC and messed up childhood.

I think it's the feeling of helplessness that has me holding on to my anger. That in reality you can do so much, work so hard, choose a person who feels the same about family and in the end it just doesn't matter. That person can just change their mind about what is important in life and there is nothing you can do. You can't even count on the courts to see or care which parent your kids are better off with. THAT'S why I'm still so angry. The feeling helpless against someone who is so obviously in the wrong, who just doesn't care and not being able to do a thing about it!

Thanks guys. It really isn't that I expect my W to do or not do anything. It's more the fact that she has no consequences from her actions. She can act any way she wants and still she has the power to keep my d away from me for 1/2 the time. That she uses the fact that I care as much about D14 as I do to make her life easier, to not have to "bother" to do the things she should be doing and still I'm having to fight just to have a place to live after taking care of W for so very long when she couldn't take care of herself. How helpless this makes me feel and of course the nagging little feeling that I failed in all this somehow. That if I had only done a better job or done something different, my M wouldn't be ending. That's the thing that I need to get past!

Not much 2 add

but (!!) ....

What ever different u think u could have done wouldn't have mattered Matt. You doing differnt would only affect the variables - the 'when' it/mlc was going to happen.

Here's the constant - it would happen anyway!!! Once there is dysfunction, it's only a matter of time b 4 there is 'mental unravelling'
Pls don't think that way - u have a lot ahead of u. Save your 'resources'/ energy. You will need it!

Take care, pb

Thanks pbetra!
The word dysfunction is one that has been on my mind a lot lately. I know (and always knew) that my W came from a "dysfunctional" family. In fact it was an extremely dysfunctional one. BUT I also knew that my W was well aware of the pain that caused her, her mother and brother and THOUGHT she had learned to never allow this to happen to her family. Believe me, we talked about this much before we got M as both myself AND my W swore that we would only ever marry once and for life.

I know that the studys all say that people who come from dysfunctional families have a greater chance to have one of their own. But I believed my W when she said that she would be LESS likely because she had lived through it and knew the pain it caused. That turned out to just not be the case. Now I worry that no matter what I do, my D's are much more likely to have problems of their own. They are girls and they will model their behaviors after their mother to a greater extent than boys would. Can I do enough to help them overcome what they are learning from their mother? My W thought she had learned to be a better parent from having gone through a lifetime of bad parents of her own but in end couldn't stop herself from doing what had been done to her. She says that she won't "abandon" her D's like her father did his family. But while he may have moved 800 miles away when he abandoned her and her brother, she may still live with one of her D's but it doesn't mean she hasn't abandoned her! Just being near your child doesn't mean that you are there for them and what she is doing is just as bad as what her father did to her, she just hasn't moved away physically!

I know this sounds like me complaining about my W's behavior once again but in reality it's more about me. Why did I choose someone who came from my w's background in the first place? Why did I allow my w to act the way she did for so long? Why didn't I take action sooner when she was so depressed and later when she stopped acting like a mother and wife? Why did I buy into my w's excuses, her saying she was just "sick"? Why did I allow myself to trust her so much when I should have known she couldn't be trusted?

The most important thing in the world to me has always been my family. It kept me going when bad things happened. I remember thinking when I held my oldest D in my arms right after she was born that every decision I ever made from now on would not only affect me but her as well and I had better make sure that I made the right choices because her future was on the line as much as my own. When things went bad and I could have just called it quits, played the victim card and allow it to drag me down, I never let it because I had to think of my family, including my W! I never needed "stuff", I sacrificed nice homes, cars, vacations, etc. in favor of sending my kids to better schools, giving them the best start possible and never regretted it until the day my W bombed me. My W decided to destroy the single most important thing in my life, my family and I couldn't stop her. I have tried so very hard for so long to make the right decisions for my family over myself. I truly thought that no matter what the constant in my life would be we would always have each other.

Now I find myself watching my W systematically tearing apart what I spent so much time and effort building for long. And for no reason that makes sense to me. I know she is in crisis and her past hurts are catching up to her but at the same time I see her running to the man who caused most of those hurts looking for his love and approval while at the same time blaming me for her pain! It's a lot to deal with.

I know I still have my girls so I still have my "family" just without my W being part of that family. But at the same time I know my W is doing so many things that will hurt my D's and I can't stop that. I will now have to miss so much of my D's life, every other holiday, the day to day interactions that parents and kids share (and those are so hard to come by during the teen years, missing any one is big!), kisses good night and Sunday morning breakfasts. The small things that make up a lifetime of memories! The fun stories about how her mother and I met and our early lives are now "painful" stories to be avoided.

This is about me and how I'm going to react to what has happened. To the betrayal and pain. The fact that I have to stop allowing myself and my actions to be at all tied to what my W does or doesn't do because she has become someone who can't be trusted and as much as I would like to have custody of my D14 because of whatever reason my W won't just let this go. I can try and get custody but is that my best move? Or do I just do what I know is right, not let the fact I'm being used by my W to allow her to do what SHE wants over what is best for her D (as awful as I find that) not bother me and just know that, in the end I tried my best and my d will know this.

I now have to spend time writing a response to my W's lawyer and take even more time from my work because my W is a selfish greedy person who cares more about herself than anything. Thanks for checking in pbetra. I really think I'm doing better now. Time for me to pack in the anger, the hope that my w will ever be whole again and just understand that I now have to step up and just be the constant in my D's life since she will never be able to count on her mother again as long as she lives as I don't ever see my W coming out of this. Like her father, I see her living out her days in her MLC tunnel, hiding from the truth of her pain. If she can't even see the hurt she is causing her D's because of her own pain, nothing in this world will ever be able to get her to stop and look where she needs to....inside. I must resign myself to the fact that my old W is gone forever. Do what I can for my girls and just move on with my life and just leave her as far behind as possible.

Good morning everyone,
The last year of my life has been so hard and painful. I look at how I have reacted to my W's chit and I see myself as someone who could have and should have handled things so differently. I continued to believe that she would "wake up" or that I could somehow have some effect on her and her actions. I have allowed myself to start moving forward but then react to my W's latest "outrage" and stop moving (or worse, take a step back). I have allowed myself to be distracted from what I should be doing. I can't let this keep happening. I MUST do what NEEDS to be done but I still find myself many times just frozen in place, having to do things that I just don't want to and never thought I would need to (like my reply to my W's lawyer's letter).

I see my W who has always been a person who has a hard time following through with things march step by step forward without missing a beat when it comes to getting me out of her life and I think that for her to do that she must so very much hate me! She has a hard time doing things that take the kind of planning and follow through she's shown when it's things she really likes and wants to do. What does it say that she is so intent on getting away from me that she sure has been methodical in doing that.

I have discovered that deep down, even after finding so much out about MLC and why S's do this, knowing that she had such a weird and horrible relationship with her father (and he is back in her life and pushing her), knowing that she has all the makings of someone who was going to have a MLC, I still wonder what I did or didn't do that I should or shouldn't have done. I wonder why this is happening after so many years of trying so hard to have a good M. I wonder if maybe I deserve this somehow or if maybe my W is right and I am somehow to blame.

I guess I just want to understand why, after so many years of being the person who took care of my family, including my W, that when I needed her to help me get started in doing what I wanted (my new position at the startup company) she just abandoned me. Here was a woman who swore that she would never get a D, never just give up on her M and now she is doing all the things she swore she wouldn't.....what does that say about me? If I had been different would she still have done the same?

I know intellectually that what my W is doing is about HER, not ME. But I still have this little voice deep down inside that keeps saying that it's my own fault. I deserve this because I wasn't good enough. How do you stop that little voice!

How do you just decide that what you worked for for the last 26 years is now just over. You put in a lot of hours, put your heart and soul into it but, in the end it just didn't work. Oh, well. Time to find something new to build your life around, no use crying over spilled milk. Time to just end your old life, salvage what you can from the wreckage and start on the new one. I'm finding this very hard to do!

I guess I'm just feeling a little down today. But I also wanted to be honest with myself in that I may know that this is about her, not me. I may know that I had little to do with what my W is doing but at the same time knowing something and really feeling deep down are two different things. I need to shut that little voice up, I know. But it's not as easy as it sounds!

Matt165,

I know how you feel...

Quote:

I guess I'm just feeling a little down today. But I also wanted to be honest with myself in that I may know that this is about her, not me. I may know that I had little to do with what my W is doing but at the same time knowing something and really feeling deep down are two different things. I need to shut that little voice up, I know. But it's not as easy as it sounds!

BUT it does get better. Often times I think, "If I did everything it appears he wanted and needed would we be here?" And the answer is a resounding YES...because they don't know what they want or need...and chances are when they were with us (if we look at it in hindsight) we gave them everything they needed and wanted at the time and now they want something different, and they will continue to want something different until...THEY FIX THEMSELVES!!!

I guess I do a lot of "thinking" and these are the types of things I have to remind myself of when the times get hard. Being honest with yourself is part of the process and in my opinion is a healthy way to live and get through this time and so much more.

I also understand where you are with the kid thing...I'm going through my fair share of the kid/parent drama myself...and you know what...I know I have the best interest for my kids and will continue to act in that manner. I let my Shmoopie hang himself time and time again with our children, and after almost two years, I see that my kids aren't so confused anymore...they are downright angry and tired of the crap. They will do what they need to do, and you just have to trust that they see you as a guiding light and will act in a manner that you can support and be proud of. Afterall, they are people too and will have to make their own choices.

Not to sound cliche, but it will be okay if you can have faith in you and your children.

Quote:

I have discovered that deep down,....
I still wonder what I did or didn't do that I should or shouldn't have done. I wonder why this is happening after so many years of trying so hard to have a good M. I wonder if maybe I deserve this somehow or if maybe my W is right and I am somehow to blame. ....

But I still have this little voice deep down inside that keeps saying that it's my own fault. I deserve this because I wasn't good enough. How do you stop that little voice!

NOW you are looking in the correct general direction...

Go back a few threads...Mach posted some questions for you to consider... there is the beginning path to quieting that voice...

Hope everyone had a great weekend!
As for me, it's been really....weird. First off, my oldest D19, stayed with me Friday night. I had to pick her up because her boyfriend can't afford the gas so I met them half way. We had a fun Friday night but she also wanted to go see her mom because my W (for the first time since she left) promised to take my D19 to get some clothes. So, we met my W Saturday afternoon so they could do some shopping together. Let me tell you, my W looks really bad! She is so very thin and gaunt looking. Her dress was hanging on her because it was too big, she had an ugly look on her face. She just looked really bad.

My W actually was nice to me and was friendly although she kept her distance once again like if I touched her she might burst into flames! My D19 brought up the fact that her mom has been leaving D14 home alone late every night. She was telling me that her mom has been going to a health club and doing Zoomba a few nights a week as well as working late. She is still upset about her mom just leaving, her sister not getting to go to private school and how her mom has been acting. She, being 19, seems to be more open about how she feels about her mom and the whole D thing.

Well, today I am supposed to meet my W and pick up D14 for my week having her. I got a call from my W and she said that D14 is wanting to stay with her again this week because it's takes longer to get to school from my place (this is because my W moved 30 miles away and put her in school near her) and she didn't think this was a good idea. I was shocked that not only was my W on MY side, she was actually concerned and nice about it! At one point I told her D14 has been asking me to move closer to where her mom lives and my W was telling me how much easier living there is because it's closer to everything (we live way out in the country, mainly because my W wanted to!), how nice the area is, etc. We decided that D14 is just going to have to suck it up and get out of bed a little earlier and that's that.

Well an hour later, my D14 calls me. She said that she has to get to school early because she is having trouble in one of her classes, said it's not that she doesn't want to see me, it's just she has trouble getting up "so much earlier" (yeah, about 20 min's) and it's just this week, can she PLEASE stay at her mom's, etc. I told her that it stinks that she has to do this. I wish things were different but there's just nothing to do. She has to come with me. She was begging and I told her that it's not just up to me, her mom also must say it's OK and asked if she told her mom about going in early. We left it with I didn't think it would change but I would talk to her mom again and see what she thought about just this week.

Well, my W called back a couple hours later and asked about what we were going to do. I asked if D14 had mentioned the going in early and she said no, not until after she spoke with me on the phone. We both just decided that she needed to just come to my home as planned. She, again, was nice and friendly! That is so unusual. She did ask me if I could give her some batteries (?) as she knows that I have a bunch and she had to take some out of something of hers to give to D19. Of course she tied it to my D19 and I really don't mind. We planned on meeting when she took D19 to meet BF. Again, in the past she would have had me take her to meet BF so once again progress.

I meet my W and she was looking really bad once agin and upset. She took me aside and said that she is "feeling overwhelmed" because she had to spend $400 on D19 this weekend, had to pay $155 for D14's school lunches and payed for Dr's, etc. I stayed really calm, validated her feelings and only said I would help pay for D's lunches but I just don't know how as she set it up. She stayed NICE, unbelievable as in the past this is where she would "freak out". She said that she didn't think I could as she tied it to her and her account. I told her maybe I would just write her a check next time or something else we can work out. She actually left it at that! Now, you need to remember she is mostly upset about money for D19! I help her as much as I can but I just don't have the money right now and that is because of W leaving when she did. She knows that I'm trying my best and that I make A LOT less than her but I still do what I can.

As she was leaving she spoke to me about an event going on at D14's school, that she has off Friday and maybe she would want to stay at her house Thursday night I can get her Friday afternoon. She also said her dad is in bad shape, is back in hospital and has gained 30 lbs. from water his edema is so bad. That she may being going to visit him next weekend but isn't sure. I gave her my sympathy and said to let me know as I would keep D14 an extra night if needed. Maybe this is why she is so upset. Can't be sure and that's just some "mind reading" but could be. I do know she hasn't seen her father for the last couple weeks and I have noticed the longer she is away from him, the nicer she is to me.

Just so you know, D14 is fine now that she is home with me. Hasn't complained once about getting up early. I just think she is a bit overwhelmed by the constant going back and forth, living out of suit case, etc. As for my W, Although she hasn't once said a single word about it, I'm starting to think she may be not finding all the joy she hoped. May just be wishful thinking on my part but she sure doesn't SEEM any "happier". Of course, that doesn't mean she will slow down on destroying our family or even when it comes to the D. I really think she just feels like she couldn't stop even if she wanted at this point. She has taken things so far, her father is pushing her to keep going and she has "made up her mind" and that's that. I just am hoping that she MAY just be starting to see that she isn't going to just simply run away and magically be so very happy. Who knows. I do know that it really makes no difference in regards to what I need to do for ME and my D's. It would just be so satisfying if she did start to realize that she has been blaming all the wrong people and things for all her unhappiness!

So, that has been my weekend. Tomorrow I need to buckle down and make some money. I have a feeling W is going to be asking for money very soon!

Oh Boy! I swear I'm so bad at reading what is going on with my W anymore.

So, after the 2 times I have spoken and seen my W over the last couple days, I find out that there is a reason for all this. My lawyers office called and although I only got a message, it looks like my W is playing hardball about the house!It's so bad that my lawyer wants to set up an appt. to speak with me and he's already been paid. He charged me a flat fee so for him to want to take time out and see me that is not good. I swear, my W is just so different than the person she used to be. I know she is in crisis, I know she is wanting what she wants and wants it now but I just don't get her.

First, "I'll never get a D"...this lasted 25 YEARS. Than, "I want a D, and I don't want to try". This lasted a few months. Than "I think it would be best for us to just separate. I know people that have been separated for over a year and it works for them" (at that time she gave all kinds of reason why it was better from money to the kids). That lasted a month. Then it was "I went to see a lawyer because my dad "made me" and I decided to file. But don't worry you don't need a lawyer of your own because we don't have anything much to split up and you can have the house". Than came the taking everything SHE wanted, putting my D14 in the school that was close to her even though it's 30 miles away from me, the freaking out if I just asked to keep something that we bought during the M. Then came her "Final Decree" where she offered to "allow" me to live rent free in the house until D14 was "18 and a day" and then sell it and she gets half.

I'm so disgusted with her behavior, who she has become, what is important to her and what means nothing. The fact that she will not even slow down and doesn't care even a tiny bit that she is hurting me, her kids, heck, herself. She won't even talk to me about what is going on with my d14's school. It's like I'm just this thing that's in her way. I read on here all the time where WAS's at least speak to the LBS. They are decent to them at least some of the time. They actually make attempts to "co-parent". My W won't even say thank you or acknowledge anything I do for her or D14. She is totally caught up in herself and her father. Oh, I just found out that her father has been "disciplining" D14 when he stays with my W. The man doesn't have the right to do that nor is he in a position to tell her how to act considering the kind of person HE is.

I guess what I'm saying is that my W has been in her MLC for at least a few years. By this time I would think that she would at least made some progress seeing that me and her M may not be the thing that has caused her so much pain and unhappiness but that's just not the case. I now am starting to think that there is no hope that I will ever see her as anything but someone that I would rather never have a thing to do with again in my life.The thing is I will need to deal with her in the future. There will always be times where we will need to see each other and important times at that. Someday my D's will get M. I don't want to make that an awkward time for them where they have to worry about if mom brings a date or dad does. Have to keep the families apart, etc. I so wanted, if it had to happen, that we could do this in a way that we could avoid any of the usual crap that comes along with D and my W said the same. But, just like everything else, she says one thing but does another.

I'm not spinning here, so don't get that idea. I'm just tired of having to deal with all that my W has caused. Having to always be responding to her latest "change of heart". Having to put up with knowing she is not doing what is best for my d14 and knowing there is nothing I can do to stop her. I'm starting to think maybe I should just sell the house "as is" if I can and give up the fight. I just am so tired and I know for sure that my W will never stop, never change, never be able to see past herself at what may be best for everyone. If I could I'd do like Heather and find a job far away and move there with my D's and never have to see my W again.

This is more or less a vent. A statement that no matter what I do to change, my W will never see me as anything but a block to her joy. She won't be happy until does everything she can to erase the last 26 years like they never happened. Until nothing is left of all the hard work of the last 20 years. No home. No family. Nothing at all. That makes me so unhappy and I really just no longer have faith in anyone. If my W, the person who I gave so much of myself to, worked so hard for can do this, can become such a different person, selfish uncaring person. How am I ever going to trust anyone ever again?

I get the venting. Curious though

Quote:

I swear I'm so bad at reading what is going on with my W anymore

Does that mean you aren't trying to any longer?

AJ

Good to hear from you AJ.
I understand what you are saying here and you are right. I guess it's not as much of my "trying" to read what is going on but more like how I come away feeling after I talk to her. How it seems like maybe she actually was being honest and didn't have any ulterior motive and then finding out that that wasn't the case.

I know I have to stop doing even that. I have to understand that I can't take ANYTHING my W says or does on face value and just know that in the end she is out to get as much as she can get and doesn't care about anything BUT herself. It's just that I've never been that kind of person and neither was she (WAS being the operative word) and it's hard for me to think that way. I need to learn to and quickly!

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Oh Boy! I swear I'm so bad at reading what is going on with my W anymore.

So, after the 2 times I have spoken and seen my W over the last couple days, I find out that there is a reason for all this. My lawyers office called and although I only got a message, it looks like my W is playing hardball about the house!It's so bad that my lawyer wants to set up an appt. to speak with me and he's already been paid. He charged me a flat fee so for him to want to take time out and see me that is not good. I swear, my W is just so different than the person she used to be. I know she is in crisis, I know she is wanting what she wants and wants it now but I just don't get her.

First, "I'll never get a D"...this lasted 25 YEARS. Than, "I want a D, and I don't want to try". This lasted a few months. Than "I think it would be best for us to just separate. I know people that have been separated for over a year and it works for them" (at that time she gave all kinds of reason why it was better from money to the kids). That lasted a month. Then it was "I went to see a lawyer because my dad "made me" and I decided to file. But don't worry you don't need a lawyer of your own because we don't have anything much to split up and you can have the house". Than came the taking everything SHE wanted, putting my D14 in the school that was close to her even though it's 30 miles away from me, the freaking out if I just asked to keep something that we bought during the M. Then came her "Final Decree" where she offered to "allow" me to live rent free in the house until D14 was "18 and a day" and then sell it and she gets half.

I'm so disgusted with her behavior, who she has become, what is important to her and what means nothing. The fact that she will not even slow down and doesn't care even a tiny bit that she is hurting me, her kids, heck, herself. She won't even talk to me about what is going on with my d14's school. It's like I'm just this thing that's in her way. I read on here all the time where WAS's at least speak to the LBS. They are decent to them at least some of the time. They actually make attempts to "co-parent". My W won't even say thank you or acknowledge anything I do for her or D14. She is totally caught up in herself and her father. Oh, I just found out that her father has been "disciplining" D14 when he stays with my W. The man doesn't have the right to do that nor is he in a position to tell her how to act considering the kind of person HE is.

I guess what I'm saying is that my W has been in her MLC for at least a few years. By this time I would think that she would at least made some progress seeing that me and her M may not be the thing that has caused her so much pain and unhappiness but that's just not the case. I now am starting to think that there is no hope that I will ever see her as anything but someone that I would rather never have a thing to do with again in my life.The thing is I will need to deal with her in the future. There will always be times where we will need to see each other and important times at that. Someday my D's will get M. I don't want to make that an awkward time for them where they have to worry about if mom brings a date or dad does. Have to keep the families apart, etc. I so wanted, if it had to happen, that we could do this in a way that we could avoid any of the usual crap that comes along with D and my W said the same. But, just like everything else, she says one thing but does another.

I'm not spinning here, so don't get that idea. I'm just tired of having to deal with all that my W has caused. Having to always be responding to her latest "change of heart". Having to put up with knowing she is not doing what is best for my d14 and knowing there is nothing I can do to stop her. I'm starting to think maybe I should just sell the house "as is" if I can and give up the fight. I just am so tired and I know for sure that my W will never stop, never change, never be able to see past herself at what may be best for everyone. If I could I'd do like Heather and find a job far away and move there with my D's and never have to see my W again.

This is more or less a vent. A statement that no matter what I do to change, my W will never see me as anything but a block to her joy. She won't be happy until does everything she can to erase the last 26 years like they never happened. Until nothing is left of all the hard work of the last 20 years. No home. No family. Nothing at all. That makes me so unhappy and I really just no longer have faith in anyone. If my W, the person who I gave so much of myself to, worked so hard for can do this, can become such a different person, selfish uncaring person. How am I ever going to trust anyone ever again?

So I ask...

What did you think MLC is about ???

You are giving her way too much power over your life...

When you stop, things will change for you..

Until then, you trying to change it, control it, and manipulate it, will only drive YOU insane...

You are causing your own pain Matt...

Matt, you keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. That's just craziness, ya know?

So, you cant trust anything that she says. You knew this already. She aint who she was. That's just the way it is. The sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be. You dont get her because you arent in crisis.

So, first you tell all the ways your wife has changed her mind over and over, then you say she will never stop or change.

Matt, she is crazy. She may change, she may not. The only person you have control over is you. That's it. Not her, not her father. You have to let that all go or you are going to go round and round and round.

Accept what is, even though it succks. Let go of the rest. Protect yourself and your children as best you can. Understand that no matter how many times you write or think about the situation or her or her father, it isnt going to change right now.

Be the man you want to be. Be the father you want to be. Leave her to her cray cray. Just get out of the way of it. You dont want to get any of it on you.

.

Time to let it go, Matt. That is the way out of this for you. I know its so hard, but, it is what you have to do in order to come out whole.

You can learn to trust again one day. But I wouldnt worry about that right now. You need to take back control of your life. You are giving it all to her.

Matt,

Yes, you're spinning once again.

Way back before in your earlier posts, I said that W may stay stuck for a long, long time. Or possibly forever. One can never know with the MLC....it is an invisible disease with no diagnosis or cure.

Originally Posted By: Mach

What did you think MLC is about ???

Just about as fun as trying to pin some wet, semi-gelled jello on the wall.

Hmmm... maybe it's time to try something new here...

Matt, every time you make one of those "I can't believe what my W is doing, this is so unfair, I'm a victim and it's all her evil daddies fault" posts, (or even just allow yourself to get stuck thinking like that) I want you to imagine me punching you in the face. (with love of course)

I hope I made you laugh buddy, now get to work and make us all proud of you. You CAN do this. You HAVE to.

Originally Posted By: Matt165

First, "I'll never get a D"...this lasted 25 YEARS. Than, "I want a D, and I don't want to try". This lasted a few months. Than "I think it would be best for us to just separate. I know people that have been separated for over a year and it works for them" (at that time she gave all kinds of reason why it was better from money to the kids). That lasted a month. Then it was "I went to see a lawyer because my dad "made me" and I decided to file. But don't worry you don't need a lawyer of your own because we don't have anything much to split up and you can have the house". Than came the taking everything SHE wanted, putting my D14 in the school that was close to her even though it's 30 miles away from me, the freaking out if I just asked to keep something that we bought during the M. Then came her "Final Decree" where she offered to "allow" me to live rent free in the house until D14 was "18 and a day" and then sell it and she gets half.

Hey Matt. Same garbage I got, and you know what? It's all par for the course in MLC land. Some things, you just have to accept. I know it's tough. I know it's frustrating, and I know you just want to understand WHY?

Believe me, Matt, I have a looooong way to go. I still try to figure things out. But I just want to share some things that have helped me from spinning over things. Trust me, I still spin, but not as often or as long. But, I can tell that some of the bigger things, some things I struggled in the beginning, are still affecting you.

First, you have to accept the fact that she is gone. Whatever you have to tell yourself to get through that, do it. Will she come back? Who knows? But for now, you just need to put her aside. You don't want to deal with crazy. So don't. What helped me detach from this was thinking (and trust me I was hoping and praying he'd come back) that if he wanted me, he'd come back. I would think, he knows how I feel. He knows I want to be married to him. If he wants me, he knows where to find me. I am worth him putting forth effort. If he doesn't, then why would I want to be in that r with someone who does not put effort into me and does not want to be with me.

Next, as far as the house and things. XH pretty much screwed me. He felt very entitled and took whatever. I still think he was hiding money, etc. Many things we agreed on, he did not follow through. I could have gone to battle with him. Here was my thinking, it is my s's senior year. He has had a tough couple years. I want to be there for him emotionally, mentally, etc. I did not want to waste his last year of high school in an emotional, mental, and physically draining battle.

I made sure I had enough of what I needed to take care of my kids. I picked up a couple odd jobs to make a little extra cash (things that would not interfere with time with my kids, and since they are older, I can do that better). I decided to cut my loses. The fight was not worth the time and emotional energy it was going to take from my kids. I realize it is not always like that and everyone's sitch is different, but you have to find a balance.

I remember xh was ticked off one day bc he saw what child support was (his l was way wrong... even though I told him ahead of time... whatever). Anyway, he was in full-blown monster rage. He followed me home (from l's office, which he would show up to my appts and wait in the waiting room and call and text me while I was in there). He was hooting and hollering, and I told him to give me the key to the house. He went home and changed and came back and started clearing stuff out. I was mowing at the time (or he probably would have taken that). He was trying to tick me off. He totally cleaned out the shed, took everything. Things that my parents had given us(his parents have never given us ONE thing- not that I care, but c'mon, he was taking that to bother me). He took the propane tank for the grill, we had 2 seed spreaders and he took both, things he didn't need, and some things that were my grandfather's.

I was getting so agitated, but I didn't argue. I finally said (as he was filling up the utility trailer- he had his brother helping him)to him, "You know what, xh, if taking this is what is going to make you happy in life, then go for it. Have fun."
Yeah, I was ticked, but I wasn't going to give him the battle he wanted. Normally, I would have had my tail-feathers high in the air, and been going off- something I did when I felt I needed to put up a fight. But I left. I got in my car and drove off. I left him to the house to do whatever. He texted me and I ignored it. I waited a couple hours before I returned.

I would get ticked sometimes when I needed something. And now the thought of my stuff being with hww (stuff my parents bought and that was my grandpa's) could make me see red, but I just kept telling myself, they are just things. I am over it now. Things can be replaced. It is not going to kill me. I needed my sanity! I needed to put it in perspective for my kids' sake. Honestly, Matt, this has helped me detach and move away from the crazy.

For me, doing this, was one of the biggest growths I've had. I just let it go. Again, I know it is not fit for everyone's sitch, but the point is to find a balance. What can you emotionally remove yourself from for the sake of detaching or peace? It's hard, but you can do it. It makes it easier in the long-run.

Wow, Mighty. I think the name really suits you!

Following and hollering at you? Following you to to and from Lawyers office and texting you? All because HE got some young thing knocked up? Wow, now that IS crazy! As for the fact that "..she is gone..", I really wish she was. The truth of the matter is she will never be totally gone. She will always be in my D's lives so therefore my life. Oh, how I wish she would just have run off and disappeared. Of course, I'm sure that many here feel the same.

The thing I'm most bothered by is that I keep having to fight for things that I shouldn't need to fight for. For the life of me, I just can't understand my W's need to take "things", now including my home (which she has said over and over she "hates" because it's "unhappy"). I actually can see something like what your H did. Taking things just because he was angry and wanted to hurt you. Stupid and juvenile, but I can see someone doing that. What my W is seemly doing is trying to take anything and everything of value that we ever had. At the same time she also wants to be the martyr who is having to pay for "everything". She told me that she has had to buy clothes for D14 because she "needs to have a set of clothes for when she stays with me". Now, she has plenty of clothes for school. The only reason she needs more is because my W decided to leave. Doesn't it make sense that if she wants her to have more just because she needs to live half the time with her simply because she wanted to leave me and destroy her family, that it stands to reason she should be paying for that? If she so hated living here why would she want to just recreate the same home only 30 miles away? Are MLCers so irrational that she actually believes that she is in the right? I hear you Wonka....you can't reason with crazy and I need to stop doing that. You are right. But I still get so frustrated at times. I'm trying so very hard to get on with my life, one without my W as my W. I'm stressed, I'm trying to make ends meet, make sure my D14 has a stable parent and make a better life for myself and my D's. Having to deal with w's crazy is just not helping.

I'm tired of having to be the one who has to be there for my D14 when she is with me and also when she is with her mother. I'm tired of having to take my time and energy and devote it to fighting for what any rational person would see as reasonable for me to get after so many years of working so hard, of taking care of someone who was "sick", of being the sole "bread winner" for most of our M, especially since I wasn't the one who ended the M. I just want this whole thing to be over and done with but I'm not going to just roll over and give her everything either.

I see my W looking like she hasn't slept, being way too thin and gaunt. Every time I have seen her even when she was out with her relatives early after she left and she was still inviting me to family events, I never see her smile. How is it she still thinks I'm the cause of her unhappiness? She sure doesn't look any happier than before she left! I don't want her to see this so she changes her mind about our M. I really believe that boat has sailed. I would just like for her to maybe see this so that we could maybe be able to actually co-parent our D's in a way that is healthy and where we could maybe work together for their good at least.

Yes, I deserve the 2x4's. Yes, this is stuff I've been through before but now I have to go see my lawyer and take time off work and out of my life. I have to answer her demands from her lawyer. I have to act nice, when I'm around her because my D14 is always there. I have to hold my tongue when my 14 year old D says how much she likes not having anyone around when she gets home from school until 8:00 at night. She may like it because she's a teenager but it isn't good for her. And at the same time I can't trust my W, even when she seems to be being reasonable. I know that this is just the facts of life for me now and i just need to get used to it. But man it sure can be a pain!

Originally Posted By: Matt165

What my W is seemly doing is trying to take anything and everything of value that we ever had. At the same time she also wants to be the martyr who is having to pay for "everything". She told me that she has had to buy clothes for D14 because she "needs to have a set of clothes for when she stays with me". Now, she has plenty of clothes for school. The only reason she needs more is because my W decided to leave. Doesn't it make sense that if she wants her to have more just because she needs to live half the time with her simply because she wanted to leave me and destroy her family, that it stands to reason she should be paying for that?

To her ?

Yes, is makes complete sense....

Just because your plan is different, doesn't make it right...

Originally Posted By: Matt165

If she so hated living here why would she want to just recreate the same home only 30 miles away?

What is the ONE thing that is different in that equation ??

Not trying to bash you, just trying to keep it real here.

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Are MLCers so irrational that she actually believes that she is in the right?

Uhm....yea ???

Why would you say that she is wrong with what she feels ???

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Yes, I deserve the 2x4's. Yes, this is stuff I've been through before but now I have to go see my lawyer and take time off work and out of my life. I have to answer her demands from her lawyer. I have to act nice, when I'm around her because my D14 is always there. I have to hold my tongue when my 14 year old D says how much she likes not having anyone around when she gets home from school until 8:00 at night. She may like it because she's a teenager but it isn't good for her. And at the same time I can't trust my W, even when she seems to be being reasonable. I know that this is just the facts of life for me now and i just need to get used to it. But man it sure can be a pain!

Once again....

Please...

Stop trying to control this and manipulate it, to get what YOU want....

You aren't working toward anything positive for yourself, and you are playing just as convincing "martyr" card, as she...

You aren't the victim in this...unless you allow yourself to be...

Make a plan for YOUR future, and work toward that....

Hey Matt, When I was cleaning and sorting stbxw's years of almost hoarding, I found myself getting angry again, because she didn't HAVE to just take what she wanted, she could help, she is just a few miles away with no responsibility, etc.

That anger was not helping me, at all. I was getting short with the kids, and getting less done.

I had to change MY mindset or I was not going to be who I wanted to be...

She wasnt and isnt going to help, THAT was reality...

Quote:

Matt and Mighty, some realizations came to me since June, granted I've had 3 years (BD #1 anniversary this month) to come to terms with the possible loss of my M, these still came fast and hard, because though I don't easily quit, once I do get to the point of futility, I drop the rope fast and hard. Here is what came to me:

She's gone.

I need to heal, I have kids full time, work 40-60 hours a week, I am taxi and school bus service, and I have a disaster of a house to remedy, etc... Like the Van Halen line from the song "Ain't Talking About Love" goes... "I got no time to mess around..."

I had to see my life without her, hard as that was.

My healing has nothing to do with her anymore.

Nothing she can do or say is going to change how I feel. It's about me.

It's up to ME.

So I re-framed this into "as if" she died.

Absolutely no chance of reconciliation, her changing her mind, etc.

How does that change how I feel?

How does that change MY ACTIONS in recovering, healing myself and my kids, getting to the needful?

Life is for the living, and my kids and I are far too blessed to be waiting around for a ghost to maybe re-appear and be re-incorporate, meanwhile life passes by.

That mindset change gave me strength and determination to do the right things for my sons and myself. To tackle the hoarders hoard, organize, super-clean, create the NEW normal in a positive, healthy way. My kids deserved it, and it was completely up to ME to make it happen.

Changing my mindset ^^^ helped me be better, how could I be blaming her for not helping if she had "died"? How could I be so angry at her if she had "died", it wasn't her fault...Ya know?

Hi Mach,
Umm, why is what she doing the "right" thing or "wrong" just because it's different than my plan? Well, for starters it is wrong to take more than your share in any situation. In a community property state it should be very cut and dry 50/50. That includes EVERYTHING. To her anything that we acquired during the time that I was the only one working should be 50/50 (or better towards her) and anything we acquired in the time since she went back to work should be ALL hers. Not only doesn't it make sense, it goes against the law. I do get that what you are saying is that this is the way she see's things, I just don't think any "rational" person would. (And I know she's not rational but isn't her lawyer at least rational enough to tell her that she is out of line?)

I would agree that the one thing different is that I'm not living there except for the fact that, even now, she says it wasn't as much me as it was that it wasn't "happy" where we lived. Of course that is what she says and that is meaningless so....(nor am I hurt by it any longer. If she really can't see how hard I worked for her, how much I tried in our M, that's on her!)

I'm so dang sick and tired of her "feelings" and the fact that they are more important than facts, what's best for her kids (yes, this is how I see it but it's also the way most people would see things), that as soon as they change everything changes with them. I'm sick of her "feelings" being hurt by this or that or that because she "feels" depressed/anxious she should be given slack because she is "sick" so it's not her fault. I have lived with a person ruled by her "feelings" for years and now I have no choice but to deal with her and try to keep as much as I can of what I worked for for the last 20 years.

What I'm doing is trying to NOT be a victim here at least where the D is concerned. If she gets to keep all she has already taken AND the house, along with the fact that she gets to have D14 going to school a mile away while I have to drive 30 miles, I will be a victim! My plan for my future involves whether or not I get to keep my house. If I do I'm going to fix it up and make it my own. We let it go for years because W wanted to move so badly so we figured why put the money or effort into it? Well, if it's now "mine" I will put that effort in. If I can only live there until D14 is out of HS, I'm not doing squat to it to improve it.

I will say this. I have come up with a plan over the last 2 days. If my W has to cash in her retirements and pay for all the antiques she says are "morally" hers, it's a wash at the value of the house as is. Not to mention she has our barn filled with her crap that she has collected over the years or that she brought with her when we got M. Stuff she hasn't looked at in years. She will need to store that stuff somewhere or get rid of it. As of now she just thinks that she can leave it there at least for the next 4 years. The only advantage she gets is that she thinks that I will take the offer because I won't need to rent a place like her. That and the fact that she screws with my life some more.

I guess what it boils down to is I don't want to be a victim. If I let her have her way like this I will be. I will have NOTHING to show for the last 20 years of work and sacrifice (except a good relationship with my Daughters). It just sticks in my crawl when she complains about how hard it is. I had to keep everything going while I was the only one working and making a lot less than she is now. Not only that I had just as many bills AND two kids in private school. She never understood how hard that was and now that she is on her own she is feeling the same stress I felt for 15 years, half of that time with her so "depressed" she didn't help out much at all in any way. I'm really losing any feelings of concern or empathy towards my W seeing what she is pushing in the D settlement. The fact that she really expects me to "roll over" and just do what she wants also bugs me. At this point I need to just hold my ground and do what I "feel" is best and whatever she "feels" be damned.

You are right, Mach, I have been feeling like a victim. I don't want that any longer and step one is to fight for what I think is right. Time to take away any power that W has over me at all. If she wants to live the way she is now forever, so be it. I, for one, plan on making a better life away from a depressive S who thinks throwing away the last 26 years is the key to a life of happiness and "joy". Thanks for hitting me upside the head. I needed it!

Wow, T2, you really have a way of putting things into perspective in a very positive way. Thank you for that quote. It makes so much sense. Time to take the bull by the horns so to speak.

Go, Matt, go!!! There you are! Yes, that is part of their M.O. They act like they are the victim, that they are entitled, and they don't care how the run us over. Screw that! It does not mean we need to put up the biggest battle. Sometimes, it is easiest to step out of the way and let them run into the wall.

She is creating this. She has to live with this. Dig deep, Matt. What do you value here that you can control? Save you energy for the things you really need to.

Appreciate what you do have, your time with d14, your future, which is YOURS! Don't let her control that anymore. Some things we just cant control. We can't control what happens in the future or with someone else (Did we learn that the hard way, or what?!) What you can control is your feelings, emotions, reactions, and happiness. Don't count on her or anyone for that. A matter of perspective, I say. Yes, easier for me to say than do, but I get it Matt. I am there with ya! I have to remind myself that all the time. When my thoughts start to get the best of me, I try so hard to recalibrate my thinking. Little by little, we get stronger. Then you will realize that some things that used to bother you, no longer do! It is one step at a time, Matt. I see you getting stronger; keep at it!

Thank you Mighty!
I needed to hear that today!

I shouldn't....eh...what the hell....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Hi Mach,
Umm, why is what she doing the "right" thing or "wrong" just because it's different than my plan? Well, for starters it is wrong to take more than your share in any situation. In a community property state it should be very cut and dry 50/50. That includes EVERYTHING. To her anything that we acquired during the time that I was the only one working should be 50/50 (or better towards her) and anything we acquired in the time since she went back to work should be ALL hers. Not only doesn't it make sense, it goes against the law. I do get that what you are saying is that this is the way she see's things, I just don't think any "rational" person would. (And I know she's not rational but isn't her lawyer at least rational enough to tell her that she is out of line?)

Is it really ...wrong ?

No, it isn't wrong...

Is it fair ?

Who said life was fair... ??

You are attaching emotion, to inanimate objects.

Her Lawyer ??

Works FOR her, same as your does for you. She says to attack, and her Lawyer attacks...

You say to attack, and yours attacks for you...

Rational ? A Lawyer ? Really ????

: )

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I would agree that the one thing different is that I'm not living there except for the fact that, even now, she says it wasn't as much me as it was that it wasn't "happy" where we lived. Of course that is what she says and that is meaningless so....(nor am I hurt by it any longer. If she really can't see how hard I worked for her, how much I tried in our M, that's on her!)

And you believe everything that she says....

The one thing different is you....yes

With you, and I see it here, is that you expect...

You expect fairness, you expect certain behaviors from her, you expect your Marriage to succeed, no matter how much or how little work you put in.

And when those expectations fail, there is judgement on her because they failed....

You show it here, so I'm sure you show her....

And when you show judgement, you show superiority, as in you are so much better than her, because YOU did it differently...

And don't argue, because you show it here....

YOU may not see it, because your way is the only way that you see things...

And that is okay, right up until YOU choose to see things from all sides....

Black and White is a good cookie, just not always the best way to see life....

And certainly not what DBing is about...

She is trying to figure out who the hell she is, without you in the picture. So she IS gonna recreate that life without you, to see what the cause is...

That is what MLC is....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I'm so dang sick and tired of her "feelings" and the fact that they are more important than facts, what's best for her kids (yes, this is how I see it but it's also the way most people would see things), that as soon as they change everything changes with them. I'm sick of her "feelings" being hurt by this or that or that because she "feels" depressed/anxious she should be given slack because she is "sick" so it's not her fault. I have lived with a person ruled by her "feelings" for years and now I have no choice but to deal with her and try to keep as much as I can of what I worked for for the last 20 years.

And here is the rub...

YOUR hurt, YOUR feelings, YOUR possessions....

You are acting out of hurt, and fear. Which allows you to make emotional decisions....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

What I'm doing is trying to NOT be a victim here at least where the D is concerned. If she gets to keep all she has already taken AND the house, along with the fact that she gets to have D14 going to school a mile away while I have to drive 30 miles, I will be a victim! My plan for my future involves whether or not I get to keep my house. If I do I'm going to fix it up and make it my own. We let it go for years because W wanted to move so badly so we figured why put the money or effort into it? Well, if it's now "mine" I will put that effort in. If I can only live there until D14 is out of HS, I'm not doing squat to it to improve it.

It's not working....you are playing the victim very well...

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I will say this. I have come up with a plan over the last 2 days. If my W has to cash in her retirements and pay for all the antiques she says are "morally" hers, it's a wash at the value of the house as is. Not to mention she has our barn filled with her crap that she has collected over the years or that she brought with her when we got M. Stuff she hasn't looked at in years. She will need to store that stuff somewhere or get rid of it. As of now she just thinks that she can leave it there at least for the next 4 years. The only advantage she gets is that she thinks that I will take the offer because I won't need to rent a place like her. That and the fact that she screws with my life some more.

So you are doing this to intentionally "hurt" her ???

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I guess what it boils down to is I don't want to be a victim. If I let her have her way like this I will be. I will have NOTHING to show for the last 20 years of work and sacrifice (except a good relationship with my Daughters). It just sticks in my crawl when she complains about how hard it is. I had to keep everything going while I was the only one working and making a lot less than she is now. Not only that I had just as many bills AND two kids in private school. She never understood how hard that was and now that she is on her own she is feeling the same stress I felt for 15 years, half of that time with her so "depressed" she didn't help out much at all in any way. I'm really losing any feelings of concern or empathy towards my W seeing what she is pushing in the D settlement. The fact that she really expects me to "roll over" and just do what she wants also bugs me. At this point I need to just hold my ground and do what I "feel" is best and whatever she "feels" be damned.

Damn all hell when YOUR expectations don't work out eh ???

Punish her at all costs ???

That is what I am talking about above....

Your way is superior, so pass judgment and punishment....

You are not the judge, jury, and executioner....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

You are right, Mach, I have been feeling like a victim. I don't want that any longer and step one is to fight for what I think is right. Time to take away any power that W has over me at all. If she wants to live the way she is now forever, so be it. I, for one, plan on making a better life away from a depressive S who thinks throwing away the last 26 years is the key to a life of happiness and "joy". Thanks for hitting me upside the head. I needed it!

You may want to wait on that thanks...

Cause you missed the point of my last post to you....

4x8....

I remember a couple of those...

I really listened to them, thought about them, saw their validity and became unstuck ...

and they got me moving towards mental and emotional freedom...

I still had to do the work.

Mach,
This is the third reply I have started but decided to not post what I wrote. Let's just say...thank you for your opinion but I most hardily disagree with almost everything you wrote. Far from "punishing" my W, all I'm planning on doing is getting what is "fair" in the D settlement. Since you have no way of knowing the details (like the fact that we cashed in all my retirement just weeks before her saying she wanted a D, that the value of the antiques she took along with the retirement accounts far exceeds 1/2 the value of the house, she left our joint accounts with a negative balance, etc.) I chose to think that you are just "misinformed" as to calling my plan "punishing" my W.

While you may not know this I worked long and hard on my M. far from expecting it to work "without any effort" on my part, again, something you have no way of knowing.

I tried to see things from her "side" but while I was doing that I was getting screwed. As for my feelings being hurt because I'm so superior to her.....I'm sorry if you think what she is doing is moral, or that just because she no longer values her children having a sense of security that is just as "valid" a point of view as mine. I disagree but hey, if you want to judge me, that's up to you.

I will no longer disrespect my W by seeing her choices as due to some crisis or her just trying at almost 50 years old to find her place in the world. She has made decision after decision that negatively effects me and her own children (of course that's only MY opinion), and gosh, it's only right that she has the time to roam free and find her joy and it's just so wrong of me to think that the crazy things she is doing are anything but her God given right to screw the person who had to take care of her for years while she was "sick". In fact asking her to not take everything of value we have worked so many years for is just down right mean of me and I should be homeless since trying to keep anything is just me wanting to punish her. By the way I have NEVER told my lawyer to "attack" her at any time. In fact he suggested I not let her refinance one of our cars in just her name and I allowed it because she couldn't afford both the car payment and rent on her new place.

Believe it or not I'm not "hurt" that the person my W is now doesn't want me around. Actually if I were to met her today I wouldn't give her the time of day. If anything I miss the person she was. If I attached emotional value to stuff, I wouldn't have let her take it in return for allowing me to have the house. As for acting out of fear...you are right there. I fear getting taken for everything that I have and being left homeless while my W gets to keep it all. So, you're right on there. I also fear what will happen to my teenage D when she's left alone every day after school until late at night.

The biggest mistake I made in all this is treating my W like someone who is pain and just trying to find her way. The more compassion I showed the more she got HER way.The more she got her way the more she wanted until there was no more left to take. Time for that to stop.

So, you think I show her that when my expectations fail, I judge her harshly. Umm...not sure how that would look since the only expectation I had was for her to be a wife and mother. When she wanted to try something new that put more responsibilities on me, I backed her.

I'm sorry if you see my wanting to protect myself and my kids from what my W is doing as being superior or being judgemental. Or doing so as "punishing" her. I disagree but, hey that's OK. You have every right to your opinion!

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Mach,
This is the third reply I have started but decided to not post what I wrote. Let's just say...thank you for your opinion but I most hardily disagree with almost everything you wrote. Far from "punishing" my W, all I'm planning on doing is getting what is "fair" in the D settlement. Since you have no way of knowing the details (like the fact that we cashed in all my retirement just weeks before her saying she wanted a D, that the value of the antiques she took along with the retirement accounts far exceeds 1/2 the value of the house, she left our joint accounts with a negative balance, etc.) I chose to think that you are just "misinformed" as to calling my plan "punishing" my W.

While you may not know this I worked long and hard on my M. far from expecting it to work "without any effort" on my part, again, something you have no way of knowing.

Matt, I don't need the "details" to see this.

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I tried to see things from her "side" but while I was doing that I was getting screwed. As for my feelings being hurt because I'm so superior to her.....I'm sorry if you think what she is doing is moral, or that just because she no longer values her children having a sense of security that is just as "valid" a point of view as mine. I disagree but hey, if you want to judge me, that's up to you.

Oh, make no mistake here, I am not judging you at all.

I'm just pointing out how you are judgmental...

You can twist it around and hide behind it as much as you want. Maybe it allows you to feel better if you can politely tell me how wrong I am, and throw in a few snarky sarcastic comments.

Truth is, the condescending crap that you just threw at me, is THE SAME THING THAT YOUR WIFE HAS ACCUSED YOU OF....

Her words...."You treat me like a child"....

It's in your threads, I didn't make it up out of thin air...

How are you any different today, other than you refuse to see it in yourself ???

And I am here, as an outsider, telling you that I see the exact same thing in you, and as many posters have said to you.

Was this the way that you responded to her when SHE told you this ?

To argue your point, and confirm her belief ??

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I will no longer disrespect my W by seeing her choices as due to some crisis or her just trying at almost 50 years old to find her place in the world. She has made decision after decision that negatively effects me and her own children (of course that's only MY opinion), and gosh, it's only right that she has the time to roam free and find her joy and it's just so wrong of me to think that the crazy things she is doing are anything but her God given right to screw the person who had to take care of her for years while she was "sick".

Tell me exactly, how what I bolded isn't judgmental ???

How many of you Women posters out there, would want a guy that "allowed" , and "let" you find yourself. And the throw it back into your face when you "chose" something other than what they expected ???

That sits back on his "moral" high horse, and passes judgment and morality on you, because you changed your mind about a decision that you made 25 years ago, and you feel differently now. ????

And don't assume that I am saying that Divorce is okay, because I do not believe in it AT ALL.

What I also do not believe in, is trying to control and manipulate another human being just because they don't think, feel, and act the way that I want them to.

Love is about supporting, and you SAY that you support her.

Is that as long as it benefits you ??

Do you love her enough to see her happy ? At any cost ??

As against Divorce as I was, and still am. It was more important to me, because of the Love that I had for my EX, to see her happy. And if her not being with me gave her happiness in life, then I would accept that.

Am I a victim ?

No, because I chose to show her love. I know that nothing that she did was to intentionally hurt me. I know that she did it for herself.

Yet I also CHOSE to rise above it, and CHOSE to let her decision benefit myself as well.

And I know I am comparing apples to oranges with that, because you threw the Children in there. If you were to take them out of that sentence, then really read what you said.

So, let me try this again...

Originally Posted By: Matt165

She has made decision after decision that negatively effects me and her own children (of course that's only MY opinion), and gosh, it's only right that she has the time to roam free and find her joy and it's just so wrong of me to think that the crazy things she is doing are anything but her God given right to screw the person who had to take care of her for years while she was "sick".[/b]

Would YOU want a relationship with someone who thinks this way ???

Originally Posted By: Matt165

In fact asking her to not take everything of value we have worked so many years for is just down right mean of me and I should be homeless since trying to keep anything is just me wanting to punish her. By the way I have NEVER told my lawyer to "attack" her at any time. In fact he suggested I not let her refinance one of our cars in just her name and I allowed it because she couldn't afford both the car payment and rent on her new place.

Once again, the victim....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Believe it or not I'm not "hurt" that the person my W is now doesn't want me around. Actually if I were to met her today I wouldn't give her the time of day. If anything I miss the person she was. If I attached emotional value to stuff, I wouldn't have let her take it in return for allowing me to have the house. As for acting out of fear...you are right there. I fear getting taken for everything that I have and being left homeless while my W gets to keep it all. So, you're right on there. I also fear what will happen to my teenage D when she's left alone every day after school until late at night.

So let me get this straight....

You LET her, take the "stuff" , in exchange for the house.

Then you bitch about her taking it(stuff), and you are gonna be homeless....

What ???

Originally Posted By: Matt165

The biggest mistake I made in all this is treating my W like someone who is pain and just trying to find her way. The more compassion I showed the more she got HER way.The more she got her way the more she wanted until there was no more left to take. Time for that to stop.

Once again, that is what MLC is....

And IF you would have read here, and listened rather than defending yourself, you would have seen that MLC requires strong boundaries for OURSELVES.

You chose compassion because that is who you are, and what you believe.

And I commend you for trying that. We have all tried that angle...

Nothing wrong with that....right up until you deemed yourself smarter than anyone here, and chose to do things your way, instead of listening to some people who have walked this path ahead of you.

And forgive me , BUT (your favorite excuse for not doing better), the dis-respect that you show to anyone that tries to show you a different view, on a forum that I owe so much to (for saving my dumb ass), is quite offensive.

But hey, who am I to tell you anything....

Originally Posted By: Matt165

So, you think I show her that when my expectations fail, I judge her harshly. Umm...not sure how that would look since the only expectation I had was for her to be a wife and mother. When she wanted to try something new that put more responsibilities on me, I backed her.

I don't have to "think" it Matt....it is all over your words

Originally Posted By: Matt165

I'm sorry if you see my wanting to protect myself and my kids from what my W is doing as being superior or being judgemental. Or doing so as "punishing" her. I disagree but, hey that's OK. You have every right to your opinion!

Well, I thank you for allowing me to have my opinion.

Like I said above, it is all in your words. It isn't something that I have to "think", or be opinionated about too much.

You have spent so much time during this, trying to prove that you are right, more moral, and being the victim...

That you forgot to actually be anything different, and not just for your Marriage....for something way worse....yourself

Have you noticed that there aren't any Vets posting to you anymore ?

Ever wonder why ???

I have a pretty good idea....

Yikes, step away folks...Pissing contest in progress. :-)

Matt, I love ya. You are an awesome guy and obviously love your wife and kids deeply.

I agree with Mach about the victim thing.

I've said before...every paragraph you write about your W's behavior could be summed up in one sentence.

W has hurt me by _________________.
I'm angry with W because _______________.

The play-by-play of every action, betrayal...doesn't really serve you well.

I know the boards can be a treacherous place sometimes. Every armchair therapist can jump in and give you the How To and 411 on your life. I get it. It can be overwhelming.

The key is to find YOUR TRUTH in all of this.

Personally, I think we all do things for good reason...including our spouses...I'm sure that if I were to watch a movie reel of Smokey's life, it would make perfect sense why he has done the things he has...

The same goes for YOU. Figure out why you are so stuck on being the victim. What about your childhood, personality, person makes you so susceptible to this? Why do you focus so intensely on her actions?

I mean, YES, she is doing and saying and behaving selfishly...I don't think anyone would dispute this...but, why are you so obsessively focused on it? You know she is in crisis or struggling or depressed or simply cra cra...what about her behavior do you think is going to change by your focus on it?

And, one more thing...I've been guilty of the same thing...obsessively focused on Smokey's behavior...

When I think about it...I was terrified. Terrified of being alone. Terrified isn't a strong enough word. Every molecule in my body was full of fear.

I hear that when you post...I hear a lot of anger and a lot of fear.

You allow her to step all over you and, then, you post how pissed off you are...Stop that.

You have nothing to complain about when it comes to her taking whatever from the house. We all said, over and over, set some legal boundaries. YOU chose not too. Does that make you a bad person? NO! You are human and you are navigating a really bad situation. Forgive yourself. But, hold yourself accountable too.

I believe you are really scared and really angry. Deal with those two things...Quite looking at her and ask yourself, "Why am I so focused on this person who has hurt me so deeply?"

"Why am I still allowing her crazy behavior to influence my day-to-day living/peace-of-mind?"

Who are you without her? What does your life look like without W?

That's my two cents.

And, Mach, that was a low blow about the vets not posting thing. You aren't a mind reader/seer of ALL and don't know why someone posts here and not there.

So Matt,

I see nothing much has changed...

I know you think the details matter, but they really don't...

We all have lost stuff through this. I miss my old kitchen some days...so I am creating a new one in my new home.

Maybe the "things" and their so called value don't mean as much to me because I have been through hurricanes. I learned a long time before any of this that stuff is just stuff. The things that matter, you carry inside of you.

How you retell the story, is up to you.

What I have seen is that you want to believe that you were perfect and loving and often times had no choice in the way you behaved or did things.

Down to whether you fixed up the house or not...

As a homeowner, repairs and improvements are necessary and only increase the value of the home if you are planning on leaving it so that really was a piss poor excuse for not doing it.

You commented on Shining's thread (and others) about how you left your wife alone and now she is pulling further away from you.

Leaving someone alone and becoming detatched are not the same things.

You are NOT detatched. It oozes out of every word you post.

And you still are condescending, even when you are trying to be empathatic towards people.

And to answer Lois, Mach didn't provide any "low blow".

I stopped posting to Matt because I got tired of having the same conversation over and over again just using different words.

I know that I am not the only poster who feels that way.

People want to help, that is why they continue to come back here, to the place that saved them.

The definition of insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

So, often times, we get to the point where we do what DB teaches us and when we see that something is not working, we try something different, and that occasionally includes detatchment and going dark.

Quote:

And to answer Lois, Mach didn't provide any "low blow".

I stopped posting to Matt because I got tired of having the same conversation over and over again just using different words.

So, is there a closed, invite-only vet club where only a special few are allowed to decide who deserves a post and who doesn't? Let's all take a vote on whether Matt deserves a post?? Give me a break. How about owning what you feel/think and allow others to do the same?

Personally, if I was new to this and someone told me that this crowd of wise elders wasn't posting on my thread because I was too redundant or couldn't get my act together...I would take it hard and may decide I wasn't worth the effort.

These are fragile people in fragile situations and, sometimes, I think people with lots of time on the boards feel overly confident about their therapy skills.

In an A.A. meeting, you can only speak for yourself and I think that's a good rule for this board. If someone, in an A.A. meeting said to a newly recovering person..."Hey, the old-timers think you aren't worth the time...? You whine too much."

I just think there's another way that could have been put...

"Matt, in MY experience...you seem to say the same thing over and over."

as opposed to...

"Hey Matt, the whole state of Texas thinks you are a big dummy."

Isn't it on Matt to figure this out for himself based on experience of others, individually?

I hope this does not become a thread of everyone piling on Matt. It would speak very poorly of the folks on this board who try and help each other. I have read a lot of good things on this board. When people start responding to a person thread in a way that indicates they are taking it personally and getting angry at what the threads originator is saying I think it cast a bad light on that person and possibly this board to some new who may be reading this for the first time seeking support for their own situation.

We are all hurting in some way because of what our spouses are doing. We all react and process this in different ways. The hope is eventually we will all grow from this experience and learn to step back and see how our actions may have contributed to what is going on in our lives and work to change those.

Whether we are new or have been on this board for many years and assign ourselves the title of veteran we may be able to contribute in a positive way. If one group lords it over the other that they know best and the other has to do what they say diminishes the good that they and this board do.

I hope that everyone that is contributing to this thread will sit back, take a deep breath and consider whether their actions are adding to a positive experience or creating a negative one.

Quote:

Whether we are new or have been on this board for many years and assign ourselves the title of veteran we may be able to contribute in a positive way. If one group lords it over the other that they know best and the other has to do what they say diminishes the good that they and this board do.

You said it better Life. That's what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted By: LoisB

Originally Posted By: Cat

And to answer Lois, Mach didn't provide any "low blow".

I stopped posting to Matt because I got tired of having the same conversation over and over again just using different words.

So, is there a closed, invite-only vet club where only a special few are allowed to decide who deserves a post and who doesn't? Let's all take a vote on whether Matt deserves a post?? Give me a break. How about owning what you feel/think and allow others to do the same?

Lois,

I hope this is the end of this conversation...it isn't about who deserves or doesn't deserve anything or about people getting their feelings hurt or getting angry...

If you look at my original post, I spoke for myself and why I stopped posting.

I also spoke in a generalization based on years of what I have seen on these boards. Sometimes, people have to back off and allow time to pass.

Sorry if that offends you.

Quote:

we may be able to contribute in a positive way

True, but positive sometimes requires what appears "negative" at first, for the positive intent, and positive results to be revealed.

I am where I am today, healing, happy, at peace, due to this board, both the supportive understanding/cheerleading/hugs aspect, and the straight up advice, but what really was the catalyst for my personal growth, was the people who DID call me on my chit, showed me what an outsider saw in my postings that revealed and exposed things about me that I was dodging.

The 2X4's, 4X8's stung, hurt like hell, p1ssed me off big time.

When my ego got past that, and allowed my logical, science nerd brain side to operate, then I could begin to turn my W's MLC into a life transforming event that I am ever so thankful for, NOW.

The methods and paths taken may differ from poster to poster, but the intent is the same... positive growth and healing. imo.

Originally Posted By: Lifes Twists

Whether we are new or have been on this board for many years and assign ourselves the title of veteran we may be able to contribute in a positive way. If one group lords it over the other that they know best and the other has to do what they say diminishes the good that they and this board do.

Assigning may be a little strong of a word.... : )

I never wanted or imagined myself being a veteran of something like this....

It just kinda happened on it's own...

To clear up any confusion that I "own" ....

I am not angry, and I am not trying to bash anyone here...

Truth is, I like Matt, and I wanna see him get through this.

I see some of myself in Matt, and I know what it took for ME to get through this intact...

Isn't that what has been suggested ? Sharing experience ??

Now, I have never been accused of being a hand holder, in fact, cryptic is my tag.... I think ???

In reading his posts, and in the spirit of what DBing entails...do what works....right ?

And I haven't personally seen that much has changed with Matt's posts for the past few months.

So would you say what he is doing is working ???

Try something different.....yep, I just did that...

Sometimes, the harshest of posts do the most good. And create the most growth...

Is there a "club" that decides ?

LOL, hardly....

Everyone here is worthy of giving and receiving posts. Most of the vets simply do not have the time or the focus to spend great amounts of time here anymore.

And that doesn't mean that a lot of the vets aren't friends outside of here. Because we are. That is the bottom line truth.

Do we decide on who to post to and who not to ???

No, not in the least. We give freely of our time, and we DO become selective about who we post to, all on our own...

"I" choose not to post to Matt often, because I feel like I read the same post, over and over from him...

And once again, in the spirit of DBing...

I give time and space, and I pray that his emotions settle, so that he can take a step forward instead of spinning his wheels in sand....

We lean toward people who we can connect with on some level.

Anywoo....

Matt, I am not against you in the least, and my WANT for you, is to stop the insanity that YOU perpetuate in your life....

It's not the brutal honesty that is upsetting to me...it's the idea that one person is speaking for a some elite group. I think this is unfair to the author of the thread.

I can't speak for Job or Bea or anyone else. I can only speak for me. And, in my opinion, it's sorta bullying to say that you speak for the wisdom of one group.

It's not my place to say, "Job thinks you're not worth the time because you aren't listening or whatever..."

I, actually, don't think this is a bad topic for debate. I think this happens a lot on here and, if there's no discussion about what is fair, then...??? We can take the debate elsewhere. I don't know of any group that doesn't need a shake up from time to time and some boundaries in place to run well.

I know there are people who have a lot of wisdom from their experiences...that's why I'm here...But, I think that responsibility should be handled carefully.

Please keep my name out of this discussion.

Sorry.

I don't disagree with the use of 2x4s or 4x8s. I think we all need them from time to time. I know I do. I also agree that matt does come across as if he is judge and jury. I think it will eventually get through to him. We all have to either process things and move on and grow or give up and go away. My concern is when the choice of words comes across as you are to stupid to listen and therefor I am going to punish you by not trying to help you anymore. Isn't that what our MLCers are doing and are we not trying to not sink to that level?

Actions speak more than words. Here words can be actions. I had dealings with the president of a union at a place I worked. She had filed a grievance that she was due a grade increase. She felt she was due this because of the number of years she had been there. She was not capable, but she should get it because of years only. My caution is when you say you are a vet or an expert you are just waving your own flag. If you wave your own flag, are you really what you say you are? Why do you need to wave your flag? Again your word actions will speak more that your words.

No one is "right" about everything, but I believe Mach offers a lot of wisdom in his words. I also believe his bedside manner can be a bit rough at times. But that's ok, we have UR to cover that!

Truth is, you are stuck Matt. Nearly everyone here can see it. I think if you're honest with yourself, you can see it too.

"The most difficult times for many of us are the ones we give ourselves.� -Pema Ch�dr�n

I hope you don't allow this last bit of inflammatory posts to drive you away, you're better than that. One day, you'll be a vet. One thing I'm sure of is that everyone here truly wants the best for you.

If you are tired of posting to me cat, please feel free to not. You are off base in many of the things you are saying IMO but again, that's your right.

Why is it that MY protecting myself financially is "punishing"? Why is talking about the VALUE of something (no repairs to the house so it's worth less) making an excuse? It's NOT an "excuse", it's a statement of fact. The house is worth X. The "community assets" are worth Y. If Y exceeds the value of X, then it's in MY best interest to sell the house and split the assets. Whether or not my W or you or mach think I should just roll over and say "Oh, well. Since W is in crisis, I should just let her keep everything of value" and doing anything else is just me being "superior" and "punishing" I still have to protect myself.

All the feedback I got when I wasn't trying to protect myself was "Don't let her take advantage of you". Now when I decide to take action, I get Mach and now you cat, telling me I'm just being judgemental of my MLC W and the poor thing is just trying to stop her pain. Oh, how dare I want to keep anything of value that we both worked for. I should just let her scream and shout and run around like a child and get her way, literally? Or did you miss that post?

As for you saying "Matt thinks he was a perfect H and is just condescending" isn't even worth commenting on from someone who is being as condescending as you are in saying it. I have never said I was a perfect H and at this point it just doesn't matter if I was or wasn't! My post was about making sure I get a fair D settlement, nothing more. And the only reason I needed to get to this point was because I was trying so very hard to be more than fair to my W and in the process, behind the scenes, she was doing the opposite of what she was saying she would do.

Look back over the last several months cat, and you will see how I tried to do things YOUR way. I didn't fight my W on anything. I helped her pack and move. She wanted something, I was fine with it and let her take it. I validated her and the way she wanted to do things. Not my way but that's up to her. And what happened? Nothing except in the meantime I found out that far from her trying to be "fair" in the D settlement, she is trying to get everything she can and doesn't care at all about anything but herself. You can say that is fine as that is what people do and that is true. So, now I have decided to do the same but my doing it is some how "wrong"?

I don't attach any "value" to the things except the monetary. When you are talking about "things" that are worth, in many cases thousands of dollars, there is nothing "so-called" about their value. In fact I don't want to 'keep' the antiques she has taken, I in fact will most likely sell them since that is the "value" that they have.

So, I'm not detached? How can I explain this to you so you will see....I don't care at all what my W is or isn't doing as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on me or my D14. Problem is until this D is over, I have to care about what she is asking for in the D settlement especially when what she has agreed to and what she is now doing are very different. When I have to take actions that negatively affect my life because my W doesn't want to "put herself out" when, say, my D14 locks herself out of my W's house and she tells her to "call your father" instead of taking action of her own, I feel that is irresponsible and yes I don't like it. The only reason I even hope that my W will some day be able to have any sort of R with me is so we can get our D14 through the next few years with as little problems as possible. I have no "romantic" interest in my W at all. The person she has decided to be now is so different from who she was and not someone I would want in my life.

You know cat, everyone here is in pain. They are going through a very hard period in their lives, harder than almost anything else they will ever go through. It is hard for me to do things that I know my W will find "upsetting" since she is already in crisis and I still remember that at one time I vowed to love and honor her until death. If I was able, I would love to just say "Take it all. I just don't care." but I can't do that. Because of my W's actions, her crazy spending, her hiding money, her telling me that she had not a single thought of leaving the M and therefore cashing in MY retirement and just a few WEEKS later, her saying she wanted a D, I find myself in a position where I have to fight for a fair settlement. In order to do that I have to look at what got us to this point. Remind myself that this isn't my W anymore. This is a "business partner" and I need to get a fair settlement for all the work I put in in our 20 year "partnership". That's not "easy" when she still looks like the person I M.

Of all the people I have posted with on this site over the last several months, even those who called me out when I was spinning or not thinking straight, only you cat and mach seem to think it's OK to be insulting, to make broad judgements about my entire 20 year M or the part I played in my W's MLC. Only the 2 (Ok, there is also at least one other now that I think about it) of you seem to think that no matter what I do unless I say "I was an awful H and I am to blame for my W's actions" I'm somehow being judgemental or superior. That I am somehow "wrong" to want to protect my d14 from her mother's craziness or unless I see my W as a "victim" I'm playing the "victim". To me you seem to want to be an apologist for the MLC. That every person has a "right" to treat their S with disdain since I MUST have done or acted in a way that "caused" her to get there.
I just don't agree with that line of thought. Do I wish my W ill? No. I do I want to punish her? Absolutely not. What I want is, if she no longer wishes to be m to me, so be it. But I will NOT let her keep taking advantage of me in the process. I will fight for what is as "fair" as possible. I always had/have a choice in the way I 'behaved" in my M and I tried my very best to do the "right" thing. Did I always succeed? He!! no! But I did try whether you choose the believe that or not. Maybe you just can't believe that anyone ever acts except in their own self interest, I don't know nor will I speculate as that would be wrong. Just because I disagree with what you think doesn't make me "wrong" nor does it make me superior or judgemental or any of the other things you want to ascribe to me. I have gotten so much great advice here from people like Heather, Wonka (although he has had to kick me in the butt many times), Georgia, pbetra, TL, GGG, brooklyn, the list goes on. Never once did I feel insulted by them, even when they were telling me how "wrong" I was being and why. Only a very few have done that, cat.

And lastly, the definition of insanity....is EXACTLY why I have decided to change the way I have been handling things in my D. I trusted that my W would keep her word and acted as such by giving up all the things of value, REAL value not sentimental, now, if she gets what she wants, I will have been taken once again by a person who is acting not only selfish, is going against the LAW in our state when it comes to "community property". So, you see, I am "changing".

I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time right now, Matt. Things will get better, if you allow it. Still pulling for you...

Man, a lot going on while I was writing my last post....

First of all, thank you Heather you put my feelings into words better than I could. There is a way to get your point across that isn't insulting, doesn't make broad inferences about what did or didn't happen over the last 26 years or how someone acted or didn't act in their M. What bothered me most was I finally did listen to what everyone was saying about "allowing" my W to just take things, not stick to her word when it came to the D settlement, how things were going to work with our D14. I decided to take action (finally) to stop that. Because it's hard for me to think of my W as just some person who is taking advantage of me, I needed to remind MYSELF as to why I needed to just say NO. Hence the list of reasons why I felt I needed to put my foot down and take action.

Then, when I did, someone comes on and tells me I'm just "punishing" my W? Tells me that as the sage vet they can see that I just am acting out of pain or anger when I'm really just doing what I should have done from the start, protect myself. Not only that, I'm a hopeless cause that will never change into someone whose W isn't totally justified in acting out! The biggest pain I feel about my W is that in order to protect myself and my D's, I have to see my W as who she is now. Holding onto hope that she may someday come out of this and stop acting cra-cra wasn't helping.

As far as this "judgemental" theme running through some of these posts...man. I guess I am since I find that when the person I was with for 26 years has decided to become someone else and do her up most best to take me down since I must be to blame is something I find very 'wrong" of anyone to do! Just like you I'm certain I wasn't always the greatest S in the world whether I meant to be or not. But, honestly Heather, do you really think that Smokey was "justified" in his actions? Do you honestly think that he is a victim of you and your poor M skills or do you see that you and your actions have very little to do with how he is acting now?

The pain I feel most is for my D's, both of them. How it feels when my D19 tells me how she just can't trust her mother any more. The pain I feel when my D14 is no longer the outgoing, happy girl she was and is withdrawn and lonely. Just yesterday on the ride home from school my D14 was almost in tears. I brought out what the problem was and to be honest, if her mother hadn't "lost it" she wouldn't be there. She had a good cry, all goes back to OK and I get a nasty text about lunch money from W. It's hard not to get angry and think "Why do you worry about this so much when you D is in so much pain".

Either, as most "vets" say, we lbs's had little to do with their crisis, we didn't break them so we can't fix them OR we were awful S's who drove them to run away. Which is it?

Don't ever think that Smokey was "justified" in what he did. It may not sit well with some of the vets here but I'll be darned if I would ever say the things he has said and done, the way he has treated you and the kids has ANY justification!

I have much, much respect for you Heather. You have taken your life into your own hands and done what many couldn't have. You are starting over in a new place, you have broken the bonds that tied you to Smokey (which, since you were together for so long were strong). I would take your advice over almost anyone else since I have watched you process through this sitch that you never wanted, handled things with grace (mostly,LOL) and are starting over. You deserve high fives and kudos all around!

I won't just stop coming here. Anyone who gets upset with me or see's me as a "hopeless" cause has every right to feel that way. Seeing people like yourself who are picking themselves up from the wammy that they got from their S and making a better life for them self and their kids is inspiring and gives many others hope that they to can do the same!

Thanks FY,
I am feeling a bit better now. To tell the truth, I was feeling good before and really started to think "I will get through this and I will get a fair D settlement". Then BAM!, I found myself getting hit with bombs. Thank you for the support.

Hey Matt. Here's the thing in all of this. We all want to see you
come out the other side whole. We really do.

It wouldnt do you any good at all if we were to commiserate with you about all the things you say your wife is doing to you.

When I was going through all of this, my xh did some things...I had to pay half of a $60,000 debt I knew nothing about,he took money for over a year, invaded my retirement funds and sold my jewelry,he hid that he had a job in another state and moved 6 hours away from our only child. There's more, but, you get the idea.

Did it succk? hellz yea. Big time. But, those were his choices. He has to reconcile them with God. Not my job.

The thing I learned is that he took so much, I was not going to allow him to take anymore. I dont mean monetarily or physical things. I mean, I wasnt going to allow his actions to control me.

Do I wish he didnt do those things? Yea. But, he did what he did and that's on him. I could only control me. I was not going to live my life feeling like a victim because of someone else's actions.

Your wife feels how she does. No one person's feelings are more important than someone elses.

The thing is that you want her to act in a way that you think you would act. She isnt you. You arent her.

I wanted my xh to be happy. That was my wish for him. It still is.

So, I decided to live my life not feeling powerless. I lived it not feeling like a victim because I'm not one. I had power in all of it. I got to choose who I was and how I wanted to live. I got to decide how I wanted to act. I got to choose who I became. Not because of his actions....but, regardless of them.

Live your life. Show your children how to navigate through tough times with dignity and courage. Yes, protect yourself fairly. Remember she is the mother of your children. Please dont tell me, but look at what she is doing. Yes, protect yourself, but, dont react.

I wanted to honor my long term marriage. So, I chose to act in a way that did that.

It's time to stop trying to figure out why she is doing what she is. It's time to stop blaming. It doesnt serve you well. It weighs you down. It saps your energy. Energy better spent on you. Just live your life in the best way you know how. Do what you need to do to move forward, Matt.

You are stuck going round and round about your marriage and what you did for her. You were married. You loved her. You did what you do when you are in a relationship.

As someone who has suffered from a deep depression, it hurt to see what you wrote about it. It is very real. It is soul crushing and heartbreaking.

It is time to stop analyzing and start living. It is time to stop making excuses and to realize that you cant keept going like you have been. It isnt getting you anywhere. Enjoy your children. Find things that fill you up. Leave her to her choices and make yours.

Let it go, Matt. Accept what is and move forward in your life.

It's time.

Wow.

Just wow.

Matt, I think you have a lot of things to look at. I hope and pray that you do.

Consider this.....
Change is not easy, it takes a lot of work. The hardest thing to do is to be really honest with yourself.

I would also just say that sometimes we cannot see things in ourselves that others can. Imo, as long as you are doing your best and NOT shying away from the real tough stuff... that is all you can ask.

I do not post often...but I still read and watch quite a few of you. That said... read what others are posting in an objective manner. You may find that people are just trying to help (based on how they see things)...and sometimes we can misintrept things.

One other thought ...... in my experience and ftr, I am not a therapist, if you are always defending something - then you do not believe it.

God Bless

Originally Posted By: Matt165

Thanks FY,
I am feeling a bit better now. Thank you for the support.

I'm glad to hear this. For a moment I thought you may have still been sore about me face punching you in my post to you a few days ago.

By the way, even if it may not seem like it all the time, everyone here is supporting you. You can do this Matt. You have to.

Matt,

Whoa! A lot happening in this thread. We need to slow down and step back a bit here.

I was pretty much absent due to the "insanity purge" by the DB It contractors that froze out everyone for several days and then dealing with a bunch of stuff IRL.

Seeing some of your recent posts makes me want to present some thoughts and insights from the other side of the coin as a former MLCer. This is tough stuff...indeed!

A few comments first.

Originally Posted By: Matt

I'm tired of having to be the one who has to be there for my D14 when she is with me and also when she is with her mother. I'm tired of having to take my time and energy and devote it to fighting for what any rational person would see as reasonable for me to get after so many years of working so hard, of taking care of someone who was "sick", of being the sole "bread winner" for most of our M, especially since I wasn't the one who ended the M.

Whaa? What??!! Did you just say that you're tired of being the sane parent for D14??! What choice do you have here, Matt? Isn't what you are really fighting for, right?

-What is rational?
-What is reasonable?

Who gets to define them here, Matt?

Originally Posted By: Matt

I see my W looking like she hasn't slept, being way too thin and gaunt. Every time I have seen her even when she was out with her relatives early after she left and she was still inviting me to family events, I never see her smile. How is it she still thinks I'm the cause of her unhappiness? She sure doesn't look any happier than before she left! I don't want her to see this so she changes her mind about our M. I really believe that boat has sailed. I would just like for her to maybe see this so that we could maybe be able to actually co-parent our D's in a way that is healthy and where we could maybe work together for their good at least.

Why is it so IMPORTANT to you that W see this? See through which filter? See what? It seems to me that you want W to behave a certain way that gets your "approval." Your approval for what reason/purpose?

Originally Posted By: Matt

Yes, I deserve the 2x4's. Yes, this is stuff I've been through before but now I have to go see my lawyer and take time off work and out of my life. I have to answer her demands from her lawyer.

There's a reason for v between parties. And I am sure you have your own "demands" too. It is a matter of perspective. John has his "demands" and Jane has her "demands." Does that mean that John's "demands" are more important than Jane's??

It's not all cotton candy and popsicles for sure!

Originally Posted By: Matt

And at the same time I can't trust my W, even when she seems to be being reasonable.

'Reasonable' by what kind of standard? Who gets to define reasonable? She is probably thinking that you're not being reasonable either!

Originally Posted By: Matt

Not only doesn't it make sense, it goes against the law. I do get that what you are saying is that this is the way she see's things, I just don't think any "rational" person would. (And I know she's not rational but isn't her lawyer at least rational enough to tell her that she is out of line?)

Lawyers are EMPLOYEES of their clients irrespective of their private thoughts. S/he can think that you are an obnoxious jerk and think you're way off base about a lot of things, but following your 'orders.' They get paid to do this. This has absolutely nothing to do with the lawyers being "rational."

Originally Posted By: Matt

I guess what it boils down to is I don't want to be a victim. If I let her have her way like this I will be. I will have NOTHING to show for the last 20 years of work and sacrifice (except a good relationship with my Daughters). It just sticks in my crawl when she complains about how hard it is. I had to keep everything going while I was the only one working and making a lot less than she is now. Not only that I had just as many bills AND two kids in private school. She never understood how hard that was and now that she is on her own she is feeling the same stress I felt for 15 years, half of that time with her so "depressed" she didn't help out much at all in any way. I'm really losing any feelings of concern or empathy towards my W seeing what she is pushing in the D settlement.

Sounds like someone is harboring a lot of resentment here and keeping a long scorecard against W. Hmmmmmmm...how's that helping you get unstuck and moving forward, Matt?

You lose empathy for W when she presses onward for D. Because you don't want a D. Hmmmmm...

Yet you show some empathy when W shows up gaunt, tired, exhausted and wan. Her father is dying of cancer. Because you see a fellow human being in pain.

Then you might want to develop some global empathy for W overall...not cherry picking times when and how to show empathy. By showing a global, generalized empathy for W will help you get out of the "victim mentality" faster.

Originally Posted By: Matt

I, for one, plan on making a better life away from a depressive S who thinks throwing away the last 26 years is the key to a life of happiness and "joy".

Oh my! You make it sound as if W is doing this with malicious intent. She's not doing this on "purpose" just to get back at you or hurt you. She is RUNNING AWAY because the pressure is TOO MUCH to handle.

Didja know that I did contemplate moving out of my marital house and renting an apartment? That was how stressed I felt and my coping mechanisms broke down imperceptibly over time. On top of this is the fact that her father is dying. Whatever his past transgressions, he is still her father. This very stress is EXACTLY what your W is going through and it is starting to manifest outwardly by her gaunt appearance.

Have some empathy...please. 'K??

Now on to the MCLer perspective. (yeah...held off right to the end just to annoy you, Matt!

Nah..just kidding)

Hi Matt,

As usual, whenever I pop by so much has happened! I noted that one of my replies to you disappeared & I was unable to post at the time. Apparently, there were some technical problems not too long ago as some members wrote about.

As a newbie, I am not in a postion to give you sound advice - I can only offer support

. However, I am happy to read that you are moving on with what you can for yourself and Ds. This has been such a long haul - the duration of your M, the issues (W depression & MLC), trying with Ds 'within the MLC dynamic' of which you are part (with no experience like the rest of us!!!

). All this as well as recent financial woes to add to the sitch. There has been frustration & anger as it is all so hurtful. It has been too long for you.

We all come from diverse backgrounds and experiences. Different families and impressions along the way - good, bad, 'eventful' ... traumatic ... all shaping us re: socialization (many events are coming back to me during this experience - & I will admit, I don't feel as though I have the confidence to deal w, but MUST try

). This level of diversity translates vastly different for each & everyone of us. Find your translation. You know yourself better than anyone - HOW YOU FEEL, who you are - make this work for you. Many replies/posts offer direction and advice. Pull from it what you can for YOU, apply to your unique 'profile' and then 'begin' ...

I will be thinking of you and you set off on this new part of your life after all you have been through. The uncertainty of this new life - one not anticipated or planned for, but one handed to you, yet another (!!) LBS, through fate & one that must be taken. It's a hell of a thing!

I am attending a nice event this weekend, my $$ is steadily declining. This is depressing at times. I hope that something works out for me soon/$ but I am going anyway!! I intend to have a GOOD time

. I intend to input as much as possible until I FORGET much of what I recall too much. There has been too much 'output' with the stress of this experience. I need to 'put back into myself' - and so do YOU. Plan a nice Holiday Season w/your Ds - but 'protect yourself', think that anything can happen. Don't let W surprise you, insulate yourself moving forward by planning carefully. Above all, think about how beautiful your Ds are as you look to your future with them.

I look forward to reading your vents, 'repeated' or not,

as it is my understanding that we can journal our thoughts anyway.

Take care ((( Matt )))
pb

ps wow! a few replies turned up since I started this! (hope it makes sense) anyway, point it, we care 'far ya!!'

Now on to the MLCer Mind (if there was ever one!)....

Originally Posted By: Matt

I will no longer disrespect my W by seeing her choices as due to some crisis or her just trying at almost 50 years old to find her place in the world. She has made decision after decision that negatively effects me and her own children (of course that's only MY opinion), and gosh, it's only right that she has the time to roam free and find her joy and it's just so wrong of me to think that the crazy things she is doing are anything but her God given right to screw the person who had to take care of her for years while she was "sick".

Okay. I'll bite.

Let's turn this around a bit here. Say that you DO respect W's choices. This means you don't respect them at all because you don't LIKE them and doesn't fit into your neat little boxes of what a "wife" or "mother" is supposed to look like. You even said:

Originally Posted By: Matt

So, you think I show her that when my expectations fail, I judge her harshly. Umm...not sure how that would look since the only expectation I had was for her to be a wife and mother.

Yeah. You "expected" W to stay married to you forever and to be a "mother." That is how you packaged W into those small boxes. When she didn't met your "expectations", then she's Cruella De Ville. No wonder she wants to run away from that type of pressure.

Expectations in a marriage is just a recipe for misery.

It's not that long ago that men 'expected' women to be pregnant and barefoot all the time in the kitchen. Ugh!

Now...with that new angle, aren't you surprised that W didn't run away earlier??!!

Originally Posted By: Matt

Why is it that MY protecting myself financially is "punishing"? Why is talking about the VALUE of something (no repairs to the house so it's worth less) making an excuse? It's NOT an "excuse", it's a statement of fact. The house is worth X. The "community assets" are worth Y. If Y exceeds the value of X, then it's in MY best interest to sell the house and split the assets. Whether or not my W or you or mach think I should just roll over and say "Oh, well. Since W is in crisis, I should just let her keep everything of value" and doing anything else is just me being "superior" and "punishing" I still have to protect myself.

You misunderstood our feedback. Putting in boundaries is a way to protect you. We've urged you to speak with your L many months ago to put some systems in place to prevent W from taking things out of the house willy-nilly. Time and time again...she kept right on doing it because YOU had no legal safeguards in place stating that she cannot take things out of the house without prior consent from you as the H.

And yet you blame her for doing this???!! Disregard our advice at your own peril. Why do you look so shocked now??

See what I am saying here, Matt?

Originally Posted By: Matt

All the feedback I got when I wasn't trying to protect myself was "Don't let her take advantage of you". Now when I decide to take action, I get Mach and now you cat, telling me I'm just being judgemental of my MLC W and the poor thing is just trying to stop her pain. Oh, how dare I want to keep anything of value that we both worked for. I should just let her scream and shout and run around like a child and get her way, literally? Or did you miss that post?

Let's contrast this ^^ post with what you actually posted below:

Originally Posted By: Matt

I will no longer disrespect my W by seeing her choices as due to some crisis or her just trying at almost 50 years old to find her place in the world. She has made decision after decision that negatively effects me and her own children (of course that's only MY opinion), and gosh, it's only right that she has the time to roam free and find her joy and it's just so wrong of me to think that the crazy things she is doing are anything but her God given right to screw the person who had to take care of her for years while she was "sick".

Matt, can you pick out a few descriptive words that come out as being 'judgmental'? I can see 'em right here. Do you now see why Mach was trying to get you to see this as to make you more self-aware of your thought process? Becoming aware of them means that you have some more work to clear out more mental dross and from that comes personal growth.

Originally Posted By: Matt

I don't attach any "value" to the things except the monetary. When you are talking about "things" that are worth, in many cases thousands of dollars, there is nothing "so-called" about their value. In fact I don't want to 'keep' the antiques she has taken, I in fact will most likely sell them since that is the "value" that they have.

So, I'm not detached? How can I explain this to you so you will see....I don't care at all what my W is or isn't doing as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on me or my D14.

Beep, beep! Wrong-O! You are definitely not 'not detached' as you claim here. You're still very much all hot and bothered by W's actions. We read all of your postings here...right there in front of our eyes.

Originally Posted By: Matt

Problem is until this D is over, I have to care about what she is asking for in the D settlement especially when what she has agreed to and what she is now doing are very different. When I have to take actions that negatively affect my life because my W doesn't want to "put herself out" when, say, my D14 locks herself out of my W's house and she tells her to "call your father" instead of taking action of her own, I feel that is irresponsible and yes I don't like it.

Hmmmm..judgmental much? No? Or yes...

Originally Posted By: Matt

I trusted that my W would keep her word and acted as such by giving up all the things of value, REAL value not sentimental, now, if she gets what she wants, I will have been taken once again by a person who is acting not only selfish, is going against the LAW in our state when it comes to "community property".

Why on Earth would you trust a MLCer who changes their mind as frequently as a tumbleweed tumbling all over the vast, flat and hot New Mexican desert??!

Here are some final words here, Matt.

Your W is not "out" to hurt you or your daughters at all...not in a deliberate way. She's lost, confused, scared, and very stressed out. She's operating on those emotions which makes for some really wacky and wonky times for everyone involved.

In her mind, she wants to "divorce" you as a way to relieve the pressure she's feeling AT THE MOMENT. That could change several weeks or months down the road.

I suspect that when her father eventually passes away, she will be hit very hard.

Then...where will you be? What will you do?

Turn your back on W because of your resentments, hurts, and grievances that you continue to hold on to because it makes you come out smelling like "roses" here?

No?

Of course not!

1) You are not a victim
2) W is not Cruella De Ville
3) FIL is not Satan

At some level, you all three are broken people with baggage. Everyone is doing their best with what they're working with at this present moment. Yeah, not a pretty picture...but who's asking for a O'Kefee picture to admire from afar?

Bottom line, Matt...be real gentle with yourself.

Matt,

I apologize for being overly confrontational on your thread yesterday. My nerve endings are a bit exposed all over the place right now. I guess I felt you were taking a bit of a beating and I put on my Mighty Mouse uniform. But, you are a capable guy and can handle yourself.

It was really the one remark that got me going.

I know the intent of the posters on your thread is to push you to look hard at yourself and dig because that's where you will find the treasure.

Again, I'm sorry for hijacking and stirring up a can of worms and poo.

I know you got this. And, thanks for the kind words. I was fairly stuck in the quagmire for a long time. It wasn't until I looked at being alone, squarely in the eye, that I feel I got anywhere. Not Smokey's life to live, what he does, thinks, feels...none of my business right now...It's scary and painful, but sooooo worth it.

And, sorry if I offended anyone else.

Now you see, Wonka, I disagree with many of the things you wrote as I read them. Others I disagreed with at first glance but as I thought about them, I could see the point you were trying to make and understand what you were trying to tell me. You were never (really) insulting or did you make broad assumptions about things that you really have no way of knowing. Definitely you're not "hand holding" but at the same time you aren't attacking my entire life.

I get that I "expect" certain things, not only from my W but from the world in general. I expect that the person driving beside me stay in their lane and not cross the yellow lines and smash into my car. Now if someone wants to do this or even does it because they "felt" they had to, it doesn't make it right nor does it mean that if they damage my car or hurt me or my passengers, that they shouldn't be held accountable for the damage they cause.

Far from a "small box" of a definition of "wife and mother" mine was a very LARGE box. It included pretty much anything my W wanted to do as long as she, in the end, was still a part of the family. That she was willing to work towards a common goal, didn't intentionally hurt me or the girls. Let's be really "real" here. In every M, every partnership, every part of society, there are certain agreed upon "expectations". They are different for everyone. In most M's, it's NOT ok to have sex with someone else. It's a "deal breaker". Now, one S may stray and the other may "forgive", but for the most part each person in the M knows and has agreed that you don't do that. These "expectations" change as time passes and as circumstances change and the M partners talk about what it is that they NOW feel is the right way to handle certain aspects of the M from raising the kids to how each spends their own time. When one person goes against these agreed upon things it isn't "wrong" for the other to feel "betrayed" since it went against what BOTH had agreed to. No one is locked into any part of this agreement either. They can at any time change the parameters. The S's talk it over and come to a new set of what is ok or not ok. That happened many times over the years in my M. If my W ever wanted to change something that I couldn't live with (or the other way around) and we couldn't come to a new agreement, than that's a reason to leave the M.

No, I don't see that my W should have run away sooner. Far from my being angry just because I "don't like" what she is doing or how she is acting, she is actively hurting me and others. She is EXPECTING everyone around her to just agree that what SHE is doing is, no matter that it is hurting others, the "right" thing and if they don't, it's OK to act out against them. She made the decision to leave AFTER making agreements and MY doing things that, if she wanted to go, I wouldn't have done (from getting a vasectomy to cashing in my retirement fund). Not years after, WEEKS after. If she wanted something different she should have talked about it, told me what it was that she felt she needed from the M and worked it out. Instead I got the usual "bomb" drop and nonsense "reasons". I really don't think I would be nearly as angry if she had made any attempt to right the 20 year M she decided to throw away just weeks after saying she would never do that, after years of saying that she wouldn't just quit. Yes, "expectations" again but I guess I disagree that expectations are somehow wrong just on the face

As far as stopping my W from doing things like taking items from my home when I wasn't there...I DID go to my lawyer. He filed an order that said she CAN'T do that but my W ignored that. I guess I could have had her held in contempt but wouldn't that be even more "punishing"? The legal safeguards WERE in place but were ignored (one of the reasons I'm angry!). So, yes, I do "blame" her.

I also see that yes, I'm being "judgmental". Loaded word there, no? I did many things over the years that I wouldn't have because I had made an agreement with this person (that I trusted totally) to be there for her. I made decisions that are now hurting me because I trusted that my W wouldn't just up and leave for ANY reason..I "expected" her to live up to her end of our agreements. Not only that, she is acting in ways that are childish, hurtful to many others not just me and selfish in an extreme way. I find that to be wrong for so many reasons. So, yes, you are right, I'm being judgmental. I think that what she is doing is wrong because she made a pact not just with me but with God on the day we got M and made promises. We both VOWED to God, that we would act in certain ways and she has broken that pact.

At the same time, I also know that she is, like you say, "confused, scared and really stressed out" but she is those things because of her own choices. (OK, I know she didn't choose to be in crisis. She didn't choose to have a MLC but ....) She expects to be able to come through this D without ANY major sacrifice but at the same time expects me to make them in her place. She also "expects" me to still be there and take care of her D14 even when she has custody. OK, so she is not in her "right mind". Well, at times I really start to think "Maybe this is who she is". Maybe I was just blind to the truth and was used for all this time and as soon as she saw a way to still get what she wants from me but not have to do anything she figured "why not?".

I don't care if I smell like "roses" on here or not. No one here knows me really. I try to be as honest as I can about the sitch and what is going on and how "I" see it. Besides, from the last days posts I'm definitely NOT coming off smelling well at all.

I think that what happens is when I feel like she is being punitive in the D settlement or acts out, I start to lose any empathy about the fact that she is in a crisis that she didn't ask for. What I need to work on is this more than anything else. I am so tired of the struggle and I just am having trouble seeing what my W is doing as anything but her choosing to be hurtful. Doing it "too" me. Being purposely hurtful. I'm supposed to "respect" her choices but at the same time see that she isn't doing theses things to hurt others, or even stop because she should see that is what is happening? I'm having a hard time with that.

This all started because I posted that I was going to fight for what I believe is right and "fair" in my D settlement. I still am going to do that. I have to for my own sake. I won't be "unfair" or punitive but I also won't allow her to take me to the cleaners either. You have given me much to think about. I will by the way. Just because I tell you how I see what you have said doesn't mean I can't change as I mull it over. Thanks for taking the time Wonka.

Matt

I have read you for a while now. IMO, FWIW, you are still angry and that is very understandable. Hell who would not be angry dealing with this. What I think some of the people are trying to get you to do is�to stop looking at your MLCer actions/words and to start looking at yours. That said, I have felt that �tone� is very difficult to convey in written text. So bear with everyone as the only insight into you, how you feel, your life�.is the written words that everyone reads.

For example:

Quote:

You were never (really) insulting or did you make broad assumptions about things that you really have no way of knowing. Definitely you're not "hand holding" but at the same time you aren't attacking my entire life.

IMO, the above a bit passive aggressive. I THINK that the line was written with two intents�.first to acknowledge what Wonka was saying and second as a statement to other posters who you felt were insulting you.

I will not disagree or agree with how you felt about the response. You feel what you feel and no one can take that from you. What I would ask you to consider is�.is this passive aggressive behavior who YOU want to be? Why not just flat out come out a say�hey so and so�I did not appreciate your comments and then leave it at that. Once again, I am not trying to rehash the past � I am trying to ask you to stop for a second and consider how SOMEONE ELSE may interpret your posts. FTR, the same can be said about anyone posting to YOU. So I am not defending anyone nor am I trying to attack you. If what I have written above, is insulting to you I sincerely apologize. Truly from the bottom of my heart. Please though�.look at how your words may come across.

A few other observations�.

Quote:

It included pretty much anything my W wanted to do as long as she, in the end, was still a part of the family.

First off, YOU are NOT WRONG for wanting W to stay part of the family. Not wrong at all. You are NOT wrong for being upset that she changed her mind. Not wrong at all. What I had to learn HERE�and FTR, I am still learning�.. is to accept that what I want in my life are MY dreams. My partner may have other dreams that do not align with mine. Does that make ME RIGHT and Her Wrong? No. It makes us different. When I read some of your posts�.I sense that you feel you are RIGHT and she is WRONG. That type of mindset is only going to keep you stuck where you are. It takes a long�..like really long�.like longer that you really think�..to change that BUT changing it is really good for YOU. I am not justifying your W actions. I am not saying that she is RIGHT. What I am saying is try not to get stuck in the who is RIGHT vs who is WRONG. Get me?

Quote:

Let's be really "real" here. In every M, every partnership, every part of society, there are certain agreed upon "expectations". They are different for everyone. In most M's, it's NOT ok to have sex with someone else. It's a "deal breaker". Now, one S may stray and the other may "forgive", but for the most part each person in the M knows and has agreed that you don't do that. These "expectations" change as time passes and as circumstances change and the M partners talk about what it is that they NOW feel is the right way to handle certain aspects of the M from raising the kids to how each spends their own time. When one person goes against these agreed upon things it isn't "wrong" for the other to feel "betrayed" since it went against what BOTH had agreed to. No one is locked into any part of this agreement either. They can at any time change the parameters. The S's talk it over and come to a new set of what is ok or not ok. That happened many times over the years in my M. If my W ever wanted to change something that I couldn't live with (or the other way around) and we couldn't come to a new agreement, than that's a reason to leave the M.

Your �let be real here� opening statement. How do you think that makes people feel? Have you considered that maybe it is a little condescending. I think everyone here is an adult. I am sure folks understand what �real� is. I think everyone lives it. You may not have meant it the way that I interpreted it �but just mull on it for a bit. IMO, it comes across as you are smarter and better than others. That may be how you feel, it may not. One of the big DB goals is really to teach us how to communicate. So I ask you�.could you see how this communication could have be interpreted? I am not saying you are wrong. I am simply stating how I read it and only ask you to consider how someone else might read it.

You mentioned above expectations. I agree that everyone has them. Although I personally wished I didn�t have as many as I do. I get what you are saying and I agree with you. My only comment is that right now�.her expectations are different. Does that make her wrong and you right? Consider religion for a sec (I know probably a taboo topic)�� I believe in Jesus Christ, other believe in Budda. Does that make me RIGHT and them WRONG? Do you see where I am trying to go with this. It is NOT about RIGHT and WRONG. I think if you stop looking at things as right vs wrong that maybe you may feel better. That is not to say that her actions will not hurt. Just remember�someone that causes intentional pain is in pain themselves. It does not make their actions acceptable by any means. Understanding that they will do what they do�and you must do what you must do is the key�and doing it in a manner that aligns with who MATT want�s to be.

Quote:

Far from my being angry just because I "don't like" what she is doing or how she is acting, she is actively hurting me and others. She is EXPECTING everyone around her to just agree that what SHE is doing is, no matter that it is hurting others, the "right" thing and if they don't, it's OK to act out against them.

Her expectations, wants, needs, etc are HERS. You have yours. Yours should be based on things that YOU control. For example, you should EXPECT from yourself to be a kick arse dad. Expecting her to be a kick butt mom is a receipt for failure � cause you cannot control it. Yes, you can be upset � hell you are human. Anger is a normal human emotion and does serve us well�.when we feel it and let it go. BTW, noticed that you mentioned she wants people to �agree� � that gets right back to my earlier point about RIGHT and WRONG. IMO, it is God that ultimately makes that call. Not me nor you, nor any other poster.

Quote:

She made the decision to leave AFTER making agreements and MY doing things that, if she wanted to go, I wouldn't have done (from getting a vasectomy to cashing in my retirement fund). Not years after, WEEKS after. If she wanted something different she should have talked about it, told me what it was that she felt she needed from the M and worked it out. Instead I got the usual "bomb" drop and nonsense "reasons". I really don't think I would be nearly as angry if she had made any attempt to right the 20 year M she decided to throw away just weeks after saying she would never do that, after years of saying that she wouldn't just quit. Yes, "expectations" again but I guess I disagree that expectations are somehow wrong just on the face

I actually think you would have been pissed off no matter what or when she did what she did. I know I would have been. FTR, mine was a master manipulator and still is. It is quite sad. The above quote though is why you are still really angry dude. I get it. I also know that the longer you hold on to it�the longer you will be stuck. Let it go. If you need to accept that she is WRONG. Personally, I would accept that she did things that quite honestly, she felt were important to her � REGARDLESS of how I felt or how I perceive others would feel. That is on her. It is her cross to bear. Not yours�.as hard as that is to accept, when unfortunately you are dealing with some of the fall out.

Boundaries Matt.

She can do what she wants. Your only goal should be to learn how to heal and have healthy boundaries. Look dude, yeah she lied, yep you took money out of your 401k � yep you did it under the pretense of her staying in the M. I get that. What has happened has happened. No one put a gun to your head to pull out the money. YOU made that choice. Yes�under false pretense�but it was your choice none the less. Now, you can sit around and be angry from now until the cows come home. It will not change what has happened. Yes you may think you will FEEL better if she apologized. Then again, would you? Who knows and why should you spend any time even thinking about �what if�s�. Focus on the here and NOW and focus on YOU.

Quote:

As far as stopping my W from doing things like taking items from my home when I wasn't there...I DID go to my lawyer. He filed an order that said she CAN'T do that but my W ignored that. I guess I could have had her held in contempt but wouldn't that be even more "punishing"? The legal safeguards WERE in place but were ignored (one of the reasons I'm angry!). So, yes, I do "blame" her.

Matt I understand. My ex never really follow any court orders and unfortunately still does not, at least not the ones that do not work in her favor. Matter of fact she has methodically poisoned my daughter over the past few years. Guess what? It hurt. Hurt more than I can even try and explain here. SO I GET your anger. What I can tell you is that you really need to work really hard to work through it. Is it fair? No. I have learned that sometimes bad things happen to good people. Can I change it? Nope. Can I control it? Nope. Can I control my anger? YES! I can choose to stay pissed off for an eternity or I can choose to work through it and use it to propel me forward. I really believe this is where you are at�..I call it the RAGE state. Your really really angry man and I so get it. Please though�for you, for you kids�figure out a way to let it go. Figure out a way to NO LONGER BE A VICTIM OF HER. Read the above��yes I do blame her�. What does �blaming her� do for YOU? Nada. What does stewing in the anger do for YOU? Nada.

Quote:

She expects to be able to come through this D without ANY major sacrifice but at the same time expects me to make them in her place. She also "expects" me to still be there and take care of her D14 even when she has custody. OK, so she is not in her "right mind". Well, at times I really start to think "Maybe this is who she is".

She is gonna EXPECT things. Teenagers do that. EXPECTING them not to is setting yourself up to be disappointed. She can expect all she wants. YOU have no control over it. None.

Matt � you should fight for what YOU believe in! Your beliefs should be based on things that YOU can control � like yourself. You can fight for custody, you can fight to have finances left over. Those are GOOD fights. Fights to prove her �WRONG��.fights to make her pay�.Fights because you are angry�are not good fights.

Thanks Eric,
Much to think about in your post and nothing I can disagree with. While I didn't mean to come off some of the ways I did, I do see how that it could be read that way, thanks for pointing it out. I was feeling a bit "attacked" but, again, that is just an excuse, not a reason.

Everything you have said is valid and makes sense and very much appreciated. I think more than anything else, in the end, we as people can only count on a very few people. We choose these people for different reasons and over time we start to let our guard down and REALLY trust that this small core group of people are the ones you KNOW you can trust. In turn you try as hard as you can to be trustworthy in return. You go out of your way for them, sacrifice for them because you really honestly believe with every fiber of your being that this person is one of the few you KNOW will never hurt you, never "turn" on you.

Of this core group your spouse is the one you trust the most. More than any other and when seemingly in the blink of an eye all that changes and they become the person who is MOST hurting you, the least "trustworthy" person in your life, it has a profound effect on you. You go through all sorts of emotions from hurt to embarrassment that you were "taken" by the one person you KNEW you could count on. You look back at all the things that you could have done if not for the fact that you didn't want to cause any upset to this person or because they "needed" you and wonder how they could do this.

In MLC I think it can be even worse because they also "blame" you for every bad thing that has ever happened to them all while you know that just isn't true. Very hard to deal with and when you see their actions hurting your kids and they can't or won't see it and just keep doing these things, it's even harder.

Thank you Eric, a lot to think about and important to actually accomplish!

This is something I copied into my DB notes, it struck a chord with me, posted by AJ on Lois' thread a while back, maybe it will help some:

Quote:

The anger? It doesn't go away when you forgive. It doesn't go away with trust rebuilding. The anger goes away when you get your perspective straightened out. When you get over your own disappointment at the events that took place. When you embrace what is vs what you wanted or expected and the gap in between. When you realize that you took a chance and it didn't work out as you expected, but that you'll be ok and likely better as you progress on your journey. When you realize we are all flawed creatures and although we may lie to somebody who trusted us, it doesn't diminish what we felt or wanted to be....

Letting it go is not easy when it's in your face all the time. When you haven't had a chance to regain your perspective. To let your own light shine. To let go of the hurts and expectations you *had*. Forgiveness of the other for not living up to the expectations is not that hard after you regain perspective.

Matt

You�re welcome.

MLC is worse. Period. Some may disagree with the notion of MLC. Personally, because I believe they think of it as ONLY a Mid Life Crisis (i.e. over 40, red sports car, etc.) when in reality I think of it more as a life crisis, which broadly defined (at least by me) is something in someone�s life that just �flips� and so they really and truly change. That said, regardless of MLC or not, the approach should still be the same. Mirror work, self improvement, letting go of the anger, clear boundaries and just becoming an overall better person.

One of the most important things I learned in my time here was��.

Chit happens. Sometime people are in your life for a season�sometimes for many seasons�. Sometime you choose them and sometimes�they choose you.

Another important tidbit and something that to this day I still struggle with�.is CONTROL. Not just having it per se�but also ACCEPTING just how little of it you really have in ANY relationship. Be it your spouse, child, parents, friends, co workers. �LOVING DETACHEMENT� is a term often thrown around and used IMO, as a weapon instead of what it REALLY is intend to do.

Quote:

I think more than anything else, in the end, we as people can only count on a very few people. We choose these people for different reasons and over time we start to let our guard down and REALLY trust that this small core group of people are the ones you KNOW you can trust. In turn you try as hard as you can to be trustworthy in return. You go out of your way for them, sacrifice for them because you really honestly believe with every fiber of your being that this person is one of the few you KNOW will never hurt you, never "turn" on you.

Stop for a second�and read your quote above. Read it slowly. Consider what I mentioned above.

1) Your W is treating you like dog doo doo and really trying to screw you. Right? OR is it that she really is just batchit crazy and knows no better. Maybe she never did. Maybe she never really learned what trust is. Maybe she watched you for a long time, followed your lead and then one day realized that she did not understand why she followed you in the beginning. Guess what Matt? That is NOT your fault and maybe in her case it is not hers either. FTR, I am not saying that you hand over your finances and walk away with your tail between your legs so that she �feels� better. NOPE. What I am trying to convey is that compassion can help you overcome your anger but in order to be compassionate you will need to try and consider just how f*cked up she is right now. It should not change how you protect yourself (even if that means you stop talking to her completely) but it will help with the anger.

2) �try as hard as you can for (put in whatever word you want here)� � Matt, stop for a second, is that HER that makes YOU try as hard as you can? NO. it was and will always be you. YOU control YOU. Period. Quick story��my daughter who is 13 � has stopped really talking to me. She is angry. She is�well a teenager. Is it fair that I blame HER for how I FEEL? I mean�.I could right? I could be pissy and tell her because she is being a PITA that I feel bad. I am�.after all JUSTIFIED. RIGHT? IMO, I am wrong. My daughter as much as I love her (FTR, I would do anything for her)�..cannot blame her for how I FEEL. I CHOOSE to ALLOW it. I CHOOSE how I deal with her. She does not know any better. She is a child. I am the one who needs to lead her. I am the one that will determine if I allow her chit to really get to me. Matt, it is not easy brother � not easy at all. The only way to get better is to finally stand up and recognize that YOU own your feeling � no one else. Just YOU. So Matt, why not say F it and choose to be happy?

[quoteOf this core group your spouse is the one you trust the most. More than any other and when seemingly in the blink of an eye all that changes and they become the person who is MOST hurting you, the least "trustworthy" person in your life, it has a profound effect on you. You go through all sorts of emotions from hurt to embarrassment that you were "taken" by the one person you KNEW you could count on. You look back at all the things that you could have done if not for the fact that you didn't want to cause any upset to this person or because they "needed" you and wonder how they could do this.[/quote]
Matt, believe it or not�.many of the people who post to you know how you feel. I know I do. We all dealt with this on some level. My ex became someone that is just about unrecognizable. She (exact quote from my son)��wanted to destroy you�. As a matter a fact in someways she still does. So is that a reflection on me? NO. Does it make her �bad�? NO. Does it make her immoral? NO. What it does�..is tell me that she is someone I would not want to deal with on any level. Can you see the small difference?

Matt this is hard chit dude. It WILL change you. That I have no doubt about. HOW though it changes you depends on YOU.

Stay angry and bitter

Or

Choose to become the man you really want to be�.

Me�.I choose honor, respect, love, compassion � I�m still a work in progress�always will be. I am far from perfect. Far. I love me though�.love the man that I am, imperfections and all. Wanna know why?

Caused I allowed people to push me � I pushed myself as far as I could. I woke up every morning (some days were better than others) and said�I want to be the best me and the best me is NOT a victim. NOT angry. Yep�this crap happen. Yep�in some ways I got screwed. Yep.

BUT

It will not change me�.

I control ME

I control how I feel and no one�.not ex, not kids, not my boss, not my family, not my future wife�.. NO ONE�.controls how I feel.

Quote:

a lot to think about and important to actually accomplish

Take your time bro�.take your time. When you are ready�.there will be people here to help�to challenge�to love�they will be here�just come open and ready for work. As I used to say�.bring your shovel and your hard hat � so they real work can begin.

Your future Matt is what you make it! IMO, you are at the fork in the road�.which path do you choose? Anger OR peace.

Choose the path�.and then trust that others will guide you. Believe it or not�.your W just as she is today is a teacher. She can dude, teach you that what and who she is today�is not who YOU want to be.

God Bless,

Matt,

Please realize that we're circling our wagons around you and giving you support to AID you in becoming unstuck. Yes, some nuggets of wisdom may have wounded you because they struck a deep emotional chord within you. And it appears that you're not liking the process too much. No?

We all are on your side in getting you to a place of forward movement. That is our intent here...I am sure others may share that same view.

Now...on to your posts.

Originally Posted By: Matt

I also see that yes, I'm being "judgmental". Loaded word there, no? I did many things over the years that I wouldn't have because I had made an agreement with this person (that I trusted totally) to be there for her. I made decisions that are now hurting me because I trusted that my W wouldn't just up and leave for ANY reason..I "expected" her to live up to her end of our agreements. Not only that, she is acting in ways that are childish, hurtful to many others not just me and selfish in an extreme way. I find that to be wrong for so many reasons. So, yes, you are right, I'm being judgmental. I think that what she is doing is wrong because she made a pact not just with me but with God on the day we got M and made promises. We both VOWED to God, that we would act in certain ways and she has broken that pact.

I sense that deep in the recess of your being you're really ANGRY with the fact that your dreams having a long marriage with W have been horribly dashed into a million sliver shards lying on the floor. Innocence is lost forever.

Let me share a bit about my thought process right after Ms. Wonka moved out of the marital home. I was a tight ball of RAGE and blamed Ms. Wonka for a long time that she shattered my heart and my dreams along with it. It took me a long, long time to get to the place of compassion and recognizing that Ms. Wonka was really hurt by my MLC chit that she sought refuge elsewhere.

Here I am. I worked my butt off on the forgiveness gift. I did it for ME. I wanted to be free of that simmering, quiet anger that held onto a long list of resentments for shattering my fairy tale. Hey..I was supposed to be the Cinderella who found her Princess and they lived on "happily ever."

When that 'expectation' did not take place as planned, I was shattered and devastated. It took a bunch of people here in DBland to guide me toward the realization that I can either continue to imprison myself or set myself free.

Guess what I did?

Yes. I set myself free through compassion, patience, and empathy for Ms. Wonka coupled with forgiveness.

Matt, it is readily apparent that you are not yet at that place. I guess people process their emotions at a difference pace than others.

We want you to get to the place of happiness instead of being mired in resentment and anger. Trust us...it's so much better that way!

Originally Posted By: Matt

At the same time, I also know that she is, like you say, "confused, scared and really stressed out" but she is those things because of her own choices. (OK, I know she didn't choose to be in crisis. She didn't choose to have a MLC but ....) She expects to be able to come through this D without ANY major sacrifice but at the same time expects me to make them in her place. She also "expects" me to still be there and take care of her D14 even when she has custody. OK, so she is not in her "right mind". Well, at times I really start to think "Maybe this is who she is". Maybe I was just blind to the truth and was used for all this time and as soon as she saw a way to still get what she wants from me but not have to do anything she figured "why not?".

^^ That's a lot of mind reading, Matt. You just DON'T know what W is thinking unless you ask her DIRECTLY. You really don't have a choice in how W behaves. It is within her realm of responsibility. Consequences are not taught by the LBS but "Life" or Lady Karma will do the work on the WAS...especially the MLCer.

Step back and let Lady Karma do her work on W. It's not your job, Matt.

Originally Posted By: Matt

I think that what happens is when I feel like she is being punitive in the D settlement or acts out, I start to lose any empathy about the fact that she is in a crisis that she didn't ask for. What I need to work on is this more than anything else. I am so tired of the struggle and I just am having trouble seeing what my W is doing as anything but her choosing to be hurtful. Doing it "too" me. Being purposely hurtful. I'm supposed to "respect" her choices but at the same time see that she isn't doing theses things to hurt others, or even stop because she should see that is what is happening? I'm having a hard time with that.

Your W thinks of herself as a separated woman and a single person. So she acts accordingly. She's not being punitive when she's instructed her lawyers to draft up a document asking for the Moon knowing that it will ensue negotiations between the two of you until a final agreement has been hashed out. That is what the v. is for between the parties.

W DOES NOT want to stay married to you at all. There's no way around it. That's the irrefutable fact that you must accept or continue staying stuck. It's your choice.

Matt, I lost my beautiful marital home, furnishings, and split monies with Ms. Wonka. It was a freakin' painful process for me (and many DBers here as well).

Guess what? I survived it all!

Still standing on my own two feet with a hot girl and acquired some really neat interests such as taking up golf!

Originally Posted By: Matt165

This all started because I posted that I was going to fight for what I believe is right and "fair" in my D settlement. I still am going to do that. I have to for my own sake. I won't be "unfair" or punitive but I also won't allow her to take me to the cleaners either.

And I think that there, is where the disconnect happened...

Matt, I don't feel that anyone is against you fighting for what you feel is right...

I think that, at least for me, it is the HOW you are presenting yourself when you fight, that struck that bell.

I know you are hurting, and I know that you think that the world is against you now. And then you come to what is supposed to be the safe place for you, and you feel attacked.....

I can assure you that that isn't true at all...

What I don't want to happen, is for you to get stuck in the past, and stuck on how this incident, ruined your life.

I am not what happened to me...

I am what I chose to become

Carl Jung

Now...

Apparently, you feel that I insult you....

And I feel that you are very condescending...

I can tell you, that I have been where you are. Some of the posters that helped me, I HATED at first. I thought that there was absolutely NO WAY, that they could know what I was thinking and feeling ,and going through....

Guess what Matt.....they did.

They were a lot harder on me, than I ever have been to anyone else.

The FIRST response I got from another poster, was this...

You want the easy way ?

F easy, if it were easy, then any a**hole could do it

You want fair ?

F fair, who said life was fair..and who decides that ?

You want I'm sorry ??

Yea, well F sorry, we are all sorry that we are here

And I think that is what pissed me off the most, is that they could see right through me, and saw , not the details of WHAT, just more of a HOW.

HOW I presented myself, has become a LOT more important for me, than WHAT I did....

I can tell you that I wanted to walk away, actually RUN from facing this crap. And it took some time to realize that what I wanted to run from.....was myself...

I can tell that you are a pretty upstanding guy, and you want to do things the right way....

You are loyal, you have morals that you stand by, and you try to take the right path....

What I can't seem to get across to you, is that I am NOT attacking WHAT you stand for, I am trying to get you to see, HOW you are coming across to other people...

Do you mean to sound judgmental, controlling, condescending ???

I don't believe that you do...

I am just telling you how others see you...

Look. I understand how hard this is, when you feel your world being turned upside down....

Yet acting with anger and fear is only going to make things worse for YOU in the long run....

And it is also going to have a much harder time when you look back on this moment in your life...

It is also going to make you feel justified, in acting in a way, that I am certain, that you do not want to act.

Please, step back, regroup, and try to really see what I am trying to say to you....

I chose daily, and sometimes minute by minute, to act with Dignity, Honor, and Grace. Through all of my interactions going through this. There were times when I would get angry, and scared, yet I chose to not let those things interrupt how I wanted to present myself during the small battles.

It also didn't interfere with WHAT I chose to fight for during my legal battle...

It determined HOW I chose to fight for it.....

I knew that anything that I did, or said, and no matter how much mud I COULD sling, would ALL be public record IF one day, my children chose to look it up...

What did I want them to see ???

Within that, was where MY answers were...

Now....

What I would suggest for you to do here...

Is to make 3 lists of things...

Things that you want, with no exceptions...

Things that you would LIKE to have, yet are willing to negotiate on...

And lastly...

Things that you place no value on, and are willing to let go of..

Then you can find HOW to navigate those things....

Don't let your struggles, define who you are.....

Hi Matt,
As a newbie, I don't know a lot of the others very well or have a lot of friends here (that comes w/history)

.
Was popping by as I occasionally do to see what's going on.

I just want to let you know that I miss you & hope you are well. Thinking of you (as I know, those you knew long before me, probably are) & supporting you in spirit ... always.

Take care, pb

I do understand that you weren't trying to be insulting, Mach, truly. I apologize if my response was rude or condescending.

I have much trouble with thinking of my W as my "opponent" in the D proceedings. It's why I have tried to NOT fight over the small stuff or even the large stuff and just "let go" of the things that my W has "claimed" in all this. I was fine with the her keeping the things that were important to her as, even if the value wasn't "equal", I would have a place to live that I could call my own and make it mine without her. It also would be a familiar, safe place for both my D's, the only home they have ever known and a constant in a sea of change. For her to tell me to my face that she was fine with what we agreed to and then when it came down to actually doing it, (and after she had already claimed all that she wanted), she, once again, "changed her mind", was, in my mind, another huge betrayal.

Even after I got the first paperwork from her lawyer I thought it might just be her asking for more as, like you said, a way to "negotiate" to get something else. But after I fought it and I read her "response" full of lies and unfounded complaints about how W is having to do so much more, well I knew it wasn't just a "tactic". And I also realized that I could no longer see my W as anything but my "opponent". But, even now, to do that, I need to remind myself just how much damage she has caused. How she has become someone new, someone who no longer cares at all about anything that I care about. I can no longer afford to see my W and feel compassion for her because that has only served to allow her to take advantage of me up to this point. Besides her actions have shown she has no compassion for me and how her actions have affected my life, nor does she even seem to appreciate it when I do.

My life won't be my own until the D is final. I really do get that there is no other outcome possible at this point. I don't have any hope that there will ever be anything close to "reconciliation". It just isn't possible as my W came to a decision on B-day that she won't ever see any other way. Besides, it was never really about me or our M. It's always been about her and how she feels about herself and her life. I really see that she is searching for what she feels is "missing" in her life more than trying to escape me. Sure, she is running from me but it's not the only thing she is running from. She is running from herself and her "old" life, I was just the biggest part of that life.

I really miss my family being together. Having my W and my D's and me all working towards a common goal, living together, being there for each other. Do I think that there's nothing ahead for me and my D's? No, of course we can still make great lives for ourselves it just isn't going to be the way I have always hoped. For now it's a lot harder due to the timing of my W's crisis but it won't always be that way.

In the end, the more you care about someone, the more they can hurt you. When someone who you haven't invested much time, love, energy in, may hurt you but not in the same way. Between the start when you think that this will "blow over", to the spewing, the acting out, the blaming, the wacky destructive behavior that follows, interspersed with times that they seem like their "old" self, it's a roller coaster ride that never seems to end. I actually think now that I would have been much better off if my W had just left at B-day and not waited as long as she did to leave. All it did was waste time and money and make things worse when she finally did go.

I agree that my W is going to be in for a really bad time when (if) her father does end up dying. I also don't see any way I can either make that better or worse for her. I don't see any way anything I may say or do will have the slightest affect on her. She has totally disassociated herself from me and only see's me as someone that is supposed to help pay for the things that our D's need. As this person who takes care of D14 half the time and is supposed to be there whenever she doesn't want to put herself out for her. She doesn't seem to have any respect for me, any appreciation for anything I may do that helps her out. Like this weekend when I offered to keep D14 until Monday so she didn't need to rush home from visiting her father out of town. I still do these things but not because of any other reason than it's the right thing to do.

Yes, I hate what she has done. I hate that she totally just gave up after so many years without even trying ( I understand she may feel that she did "try", I just don't see it). I hate that because of her doing this my life must now totally change from what I planned it to be for so very long. I hate that I have to do things that I don't want to do, give up things I don't want to give up. More than anything I hate that she has taken away my best friend in the world and the one person I trusted more than any other. At times I'm OK with it, other times I'm not. I will get through it in time I'm sure and then I'll be OK 100% of the time. I'm just not there yet.

Thanks so much pbetra,
Some days are so much harder than others, usually because I'm reacting to something my W has said or done that shows just how much she has changed from the person I loved so much. Or because of the fact that my life is so much harder than it had to be because of her choices. Choices she had swore she would never make. I'll be fine, someday, when what my W does no longer effects me or my life (like after the D is final). Thanks for thinking of me!

Hey Matt,

I could have written what you wrote up there ^^^ . I get it, I really do, so do most people here. I originally started posting to you because I saw the similarities in our W's with the long-term depression and all. And I saw myself in you...this is the time that W was supposed to start working and we could really start knocking down that debt, start working on and growing "us" as the kids didn't need her as much (she was an attachment parenting style person, so the kids trumped everything...I got that, and could wait for "my turn"), start figuring out what our "freedom years" would look like... I get it. That's why I started posting to you.

I get how you feel. And to be honest, those feelings creep in every now and then when I am tired and stressed, or not being mindful of my thoughts.

There is a way through this, cuz you can't get out. Only through.

I lurked here for months, pouring over the archives, reading Starsky, Mach, UR, J3B, Go Blue, job, Bond, bworl, Truegritter, AmyC, jeanette, etc and etc. Reading them before I ever started posting helped me decide ONE crucial thing:

Was this MLC thingy going to break me, or make me?

Was I going to use this gift of time to grow and become the best man, father, human (and "maybe" husband) I could be? Or be like my co-workers friend, who after his D will have nothing to do with women and is content with a big screen TV, full on sports cable programming and several p0rn site memberships, bitter and angry?

I knew in the beginning, I could go either way, but found inspiration in those posters above. To turn this unfair, horrid, soul-crushing and self-esteem destroying event into a tool to change myself, a pivotal point in my life to be and become something better.

I worked hard, most of it is in my threads, but there is some that is not. Here is something that is not:

After stbxw finally decided she wanted out, a D, I was having trouble letting go of one particular "role"... "Protector". I am guessing you know pre-sactly what I mean. I was the family protector, and her protector for 24 years. I was damnned good at it, too.

I was chatting with Mach about this, and he told me something that really, really, pissed me off (yeah Mach, I was pissed... )..."You do realize, that THAT contributed to her being where she is, right?"

But I'm her H, a man, that is what we are supposed to do!!!...right Matt?

Nothing wrong, or dishonorable in that...

I still hold that value strongly, but Mach 's little truth dart made me dig deeper to SEE why...

Due to our long-term financial tightness with her being a SAHM, and only one income, there were a lot of things which neither of us could stretch our wings and take a risk on, for financial reasons alone. The point is, she didnt have many opportunities to do things, like take classes, learn to dance, take a trip by herself or with girlfriends, have a spa day, whatever. And we couldn't risk her (or me, for that matter) taking chances on something that may further hurt or precarious financial sitch.

Then add her her depressions and me having to pick up the pieces, make things happen, direct things because she just couldn't, not her fault... (sound familiar?)

Thing is, after years of that ^^^, she felt stifled, one of the BD points was "I feel like a little girl who can't take care of herself"... that I didnt trust her to take care of things...(deja vu Matt?)

To be honest, after A LOT of thought and soul searching... I didnt trust her to take care of things. I didn't, plain and simple.

I was thinking of the welfare of the family unit as a whole.

Good, right, moral intentions, but the road to h3ll is paved with....?

Is there anything I could have done differently at the time? Yes. But I didn't know better then.

The point of all that, was, that this process is tough, if you are going to do the work, it makes you examine everything and yes, even friends who point out a dose of reality will anger you, but they do it because they care, they want to help you get yourself to the other side. Even if they have to tell you things, point out things, that you may not want to look at...even if you will hate them, they will be honest with you. So hopefully you can be honest with yourself, look at yourself, and see what, where and who you are, and who you want to be.

Because that is the only way through this if it's not to be wasted, IMO.

We had a talk about this recently, To her...it felt like CONTROLLING then...and she understands NOW why I did what I did, her role in this dynamic we cycled and fed into...that I wasn't intentionally being controlling, that I was looking out for the family as a whole...but 3 years ago? Nope.

And this is why she has to go and figure out herself and become a strong, confident, mature woman who can take of herself and not put all that onto someone else. <--- her words.

Hey Matt. For some reason that maybe only you know or maybe you dont realize it, but, you dont acknowledge when I post to you. Now, I dont mind it. At all. I dont post to get a reaction. Just something I have noticed.

Anyway, I get that you are angry and upset with all that happened. Been freakin there, done that.

The thing of it is, that feeling that way doesnt change anything....except you. I know for me, that wasnt an option. This couldnt be at the expense of me.

The most important thing in being able to move forward is to accept what is. You dont have to like it. You could hate the heck out of it. But you do have to come to a place of acceptance. If you dont, it holds you back, keeps you stuck, and weighs you down.

The way to get there is to understand that her decisions are hers. It's to believe she is in crisis. It's to accept that these are the choices she is making now and they are out of your control.

That was so hard for me...the letting go of wanting something different. It takes real strength and courage. It takes faith.

I know this isnt how you wanted your life to go, but life rarely goes how we plan. You get what you get and you try to do the best with it. That's how life is most times.

The key to all of this is...are you going to waste this amazing opportunity of introspection ...holding onto things you cant change?

As I said, the letting go part is so hard. But man, it can set you free. I lost a lot, Matt, an awful lot. Some things I may never recover from.

But, I can only control what I can. I leave the rest.

Leave the rest, Matt.

Something that UR said to me:

It's hard to let go of the life you thought you wanted, but you do need to let it go. And start building the life you want.

And this next is very personal to me, special...but I'm going to share it anyway:

Quote:

It is because you looked inside and saw your flaws and hers. And even when you did, what you really saw, was your capacity to love. You faced your flaws and changed what you needed to. You saw her flaws and loved her.

What an incredible thing to do even when you were getting nothing in return. You loved her true and real, T, even when she wasnt lovable.

You learned to love you, too. Even when that wasnt comfortable.

I have not shared that before, Matt. That is really the crux of it all.

Originally Posted By: uRworthy

Hey Matt. For some reason that maybe only you know or maybe you dont realize it, but, you dont acknowledge when I post to you. Now, I dont mind it. At all. I dont post to get a reaction. Just something I have noticed.

Anyway, I get that you are angry and upset with all that happened. Been freakin there, done that.

The thing of it is, that feeling that way doesnt change anything....except you. I know for me, that wasnt an option. This couldnt be at the expense of me.

The most important thing in being able to move forward is to accept what is. You dont have to like it. You could hate the heck out of it. But you do have to come to a place of acceptance. If you dont, it holds you back, keeps you stuck, and weighs you down.

The way to get there is to understand that her decisions are hers. It's to believe she is in crisis. It's to accept that these are the choices she is making now and they are out of your control.

That was so hard for me...the letting go of wanting something different. It takes real strength and courage. It takes faith.

I know this isnt how you wanted your life to go, but life rarely goes how we plan. You get what you get and you try to do the best with it. That's how life is most times.

The key to all of this is...are you going to waste this amazing opportunity of introspection ...holding onto things you cant change?

As I said, the letting go part is so hard. But man, it can set you free. I lost a lot, Matt, an awful lot. Some things I may never recover from.

But, I can only control what I can. I leave the rest.

Leave the rest, Matt.

I just want to go on record as saying I acknowledge this as another wise and helpful post from one of DB's best! *kiss*

This is your calling, UR. Your passion. I'm not sure why it's not your career yet. It should be.

I don't have much time but I wanted to acknowledge the last few posts.....
Thanks T2, you and I have MUCH in common, the one difference I think is that my W waited until she went back to work after being a SAHM for many years before she went into full on MLC. If it makes any difference, even if your W had gone back to work, I doubt it would have changed a single thing. The seeds of her crisis were already planted and growing. You have given me much to ponder and I want to not just react to anything. I want to consider first.

uR, I'm so sorry if I haven't responded in the past. I want you to know I do listen and appreciate what you have posted now and in the past. Again, no time now to post back but know you are appreciated.

Hi Matt,

It is good that you are now taking the time to consider things rather than reacting.

I believe reacting is a learned trait. Being a protector, as ts pointed out, puts you in many situations that lead to reacting. Because it is a learned trait, I also believe we can unlearn it. I am having too and I think you are starting too.

Once you stop reacting then you will be on the road to detaching.

We both also need to stop being the protector. We have to stop trying to carry them. Let them deal with the good, bad, and ugly like everyone else. Don't try to soften the landing. Let them feel reality.

I too was /am a protector. Slowly over time, I became more and more protective. I thought i was doing the right thing and making my families lives easier. What I was really doing was suffocating them. My W has repeatedly said I made her feel like I was her dad. It is EXTREMELY difficult for me to let go of this.

Matt/Bdub

What you fail to realize is:

No matter what you did this was going to happen. If you were too controlling it would have been that! If you weren't looking out for the well being of the family...then you didn't care enough to take care of her, Yada, Yada, Yada. Whatever you did the reaction from the spouse would have been the opposite.

It's great that you see what your faults/flaws were but the crises was within them and one day down the road the trigger would happen and Bam you get the fallout that was eventually going to happen.

"Give yourselves a break". I know its tough to believe that you had very little to do with where they are at......but it does give you a chance to improve yourself. Please use the time wisely.

Mirage

Originally Posted By: T-Deuce

I was chatting with Mach about this, and he told me something that really, really, pissed me off (yeah Mach, I was pissed... )..."You do realize, that THAT contributed to her being where she is, right?"

But I'm her H, a man, that is what we are supposed to do!!!...right Matt?

Nothing wrong, or dishonorable in that...

I still hold that value strongly, but Mach 's little truth dart made me dig deeper to SEE why...

Awww....Deuce...That must have been hard for you....

I'm sorry....(((((hugs))))))

: )

Matt, he is right though..

And what I am talking about when I say, it is about HOW we go through this that matters...

It is changing HOW we handle things...

Another way to let this sink in....

Is that we, as Men, are pre-programmed from the factory, to fulfill that role.

And over time, we tend to take over that role, and run with it. Forgetting to actually "ask" if it is okay or not. It comes across as control to another person, not only because of the lack of control that THEY feel, but also due to the lack of input that they have.

What it becomes, is OUR fix, for THEIR problems. And over time, it can become quite damaging...

And it doesn't matter if it is true or not. It is true for them, and their truth feeds their emotions, thoughts, and actions....

Matt and Mach,
Early in our MR my wife said " score points, make a decision" She said it 100 times the first 3 years. I took that and ran. Today, she says " you were treating me like you are my father. Always making all the decisions and I never get any input. You took me for granted and never let my needs come first"

Just this week she left the oven on, forgot to lock the doors, missed getting s10 to practice on time, forgot a dr. appointment and left the dog outside all night. (hes an inside dog) and almost missed picking up s10 from practice last night.(I called to remind)

What do I do? As long as her struggles do not affect the boys I let them go. Sooner of later, I am going to have to "drop the rope" Is it fair to her and us to just let it all go all at once? I trained her to depend on me, basically. Can I just step aside and watch since I had a huge role in it?

I am pretty controlling. I admit that. I have let some of it go but it is a struggle every minute of every day. I watched my older brother struggle in life because he was very "reactionary". Life ran him over basically.

Just stole this quote from labug in another topic:

"...Then the ER doctor said, while stitching me up, that he'd read Traveling Mercies years ago, and that it might be a good book for his daughter. I asked nonchalantly if his daughter was going through it. His eyes filled with tears and to his horror, fell down his cheeks. He had to stop.
Grace met us right there. It meets you right where it finds you, but it does not leave you where it found you. It moves you toward breath; moves you towards things being a little bit better: wow. Grace WD-40. Grace is water wings. Grace makes you shake your head with wonder, and laugh and cry.
I said to the doctor, "This is your lucky day. I just had 28 years clean and sober. I am your daughter's new BFF." Now the daughter is in rehab, but the big story is that the doctor is in a rehab program for the families of alcoholics, who tend to have TINY psychotic control issues. I said to him, "Get off this poor girl's back. Your help is not helpful, except to help keep everyone sick. This is HER hero journey: you don't get to run beside her with juice boxes, Chapstick, and your control freak ways. If your help was helpful, she would not be in jail."
This had never occurred to the doctor, that he had a disease of Good Ideas for Other People.
I do, too. Now we are in recovery for this disease together. I put him together with one of my close friends,... who is also in recovery for these tiny control issues that make people just as miserable and mentally ill as the addicts and alcoholics we try to fix and save and rescue. "

We never know what lessons other people need in their lives.

Originally Posted By: bdub

Matt and Mach,
Early in our MR my wife said " score points, make a decision" She said it 100 times the first 3 years. I took that and ran. Today, she says " you were treating me like you are my father. Always making all the decisions and I never get any input. You took me for granted and never let my needs come first"

Just this week she left the oven on, forgot to lock the doors, missed getting s10 to practice on time, forgot a dr. appointment and left the dog outside all night. (hes an inside dog) and almost missed picking up s10 from practice last night.(I called to remind)

What do I do? As long as her struggles do not affect the boys I let them go. Sooner of later, I am going to have to "drop the rope" Is it fair to her and us to just let it all go all at once? I trained her to depend on me, basically. Can I just step aside and watch since I had a huge role in it?

I am pretty controlling. I admit that. I have let some of it go but it is a struggle every minute of every day. I watched my older brother struggle in life because he was very "reactionary". Life ran him over basically.

Bdub...

Well, that IS a slippery slope isn't it...

First of all, you HAVE to quit keeping score with all the "wrongs" that she has done...

And I know that you are just journaling and expressing what you see...

What I would suggest, is that you stop watching her so closely, and delve into yourself a bit.

Just knowing that you are controlling, a bit, or a truck full...

Control IS control...

And something that you should try and understand about yourself...

In MLC, you are gonna be damned if you do, AND damned if you don't...

The MLCer will twist and turn your words, and make you think that you are ready for the white jacket...

MLC ?

Manipulate
Lie
Cheat

What works best for YOU ??

WHY does that work best ??

CAN you step aside ???

I have talked to several MLCers who have come through the tunnel...

And the one common them that I have heard, is that the integrity of the LBS, was a driving factor for them to take a second glance once they came through...

Be who you want to be, for you...

You don't see too many Airplanes with training wheels do ya ?

Thanks mach.

Is it fair for me to just step aside completely? Like I said before, I basically trained her to depend on me. thus far my game plan has been to let go of everything that does not directly effect my boys.

I am not sure I CAN completely step aside yet. I have found that letting go is actually almost liberating. I still want to protect the boys though.
One of the uglier thoughts that I have had is that if I let go regarding stuff with the boys, is that they will end up seeing her selfish (her words) actions and maybe feel like they are not a priority. I dont want to see W's relationship with the boys deteriorate.

I get your point about keeping score. Honestly I have not "thrown it in her face" but I have mentally kept score. that changes how I act. I get that.

More than once my WAW has almost had me convinced I am ready for the straight jacket.

I am trying to be the rock, trying to hold it all together. I am trying to to show the boys that they should work through adversity and handle tough situations head on with integrity and honor. Doing that without bashing their mom is proving to be a tough task.

Bdub....

Start a thread here in MLC...

I don't wanna hijack Matt's thread...

I have one in newbies, I will figure out how to link. I was thinking the same thing.

Sorry for the hijack Matt.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...292#Post2492292

No problem with the hijack guy's.....

Time for a new thread....Still not smart enough to link here or on the new thread but... it will be "Wife Still in MLC but has now left #5"...Hope to see you all over there!