http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2442920&#Post2442920Thanks Job... I am excited. Everyone speaks of transformation after this weekend. I am scared, yet excited to be the best ME I can be. I need time away from the madness.
I have goals and values that I am trying my hardest to be true to & stick with.
Talk to you all when I return. I have our next mediation appointment on Tuesday. Worried about it being finalized. However, relieved as well. Hoping it will all be settled and agreed upon that day.
Enjoy the break, Magic, and Godspeed.
Starsky
OK.. I am baaaaack!!! With a whole new outlook of "I am worth it" and "I love myself, unconditionally".
My Weekend Goal: I am confident in my life, appreciate my full value & I am loved unconditionally.
FIRST !!! I am excited to tell you all one MAJOR breakthrough that I discovered and you will all appreciate and understand something about me... finally!! I have come to realize (and not blame Mom), but she was the one who night after night sat me down and did my homework with me. If I didn't know the answer, she would give it to me. ^^^ This is why I struggle so much with finding my answers/truths. This is why so many of you may get frustrated easily with me. ALSO, because I don't have the tools to make decisions, find truths/answers... I really do struggle with this..... The one amazing thing about this truth, is that I did figure it out on my own, so...there is hope for me!!!
The weekend was very intense and "in your face" kinda stuff, exhausting... Love/hate relationship with it...LOL!!! For those who want to find themselves, face their demons and let them go....this is an awesome, safe place to go... I totally recommend it.
This new discovery, along with several others I am anxious to live a life knowing that they are there. The good, bad & ugly. I just need to watch and keep it in check.
My Ego's:
1) Not good enough
2) Dog with a bone
3) Controlling outcome
4) Naive/trusting... not trusting self (not knowing how)
I have realized that I am "unattractive" to Men, as long as I do not have my stuff together. And If I don't realize that I am worthy of everything and more, neither will any man. Not even my Xbf. So, I really need to GET that I am worthy!! Men like a great deal that includes a woman who knows herself and has confidence in herself. Therefore, I do not need a man to make me feel beautiful/worthy... I need to see it for myself.
I have also realized that I must love myself unconditionally. I went there thinking that I want to receive unconditional love... then I realized I need to give it to myself.
I am referring to him as my Xbf and that I am single... as these are the truth.
There are so many little things that pop up.... and apparently more will pop over time. I am excited for this stuff!!
I am anxious to share with my Xbf these discoveries, as they explain so much of why I do the things I do. Where I am coming from when I come up with the stuff I do. I am also scared to share them, as they are private for me.... knowing these things will make me a better person
I believe I walked away with the tools to live my goal. Now its time to live them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mediation appt: It was extremely tough to live through yesterdays appointment. A lot of my ego came up. We managed to work out the base for an agreement. We now need to fine tune it. The business deal is favourable to me, in lieu of me approaching the area of dividing up my interest in the house. In the end, it doesn't matter how its packaged up... and I am not going to fight over $30G. I would have paid that in legal fees anyway. So, other than the details, I believe I can now heal from this and begin to look forward. He was emotional in that meeting, telling me he loves me, etc. But, really really needing this to go away BEFORE he can consider us. He is wanting to be in a committed relationship, like the one we had. He is afraid that we will fall back into what we had. He regrets not committing further to the point of a ring/home. He stated with tears "if you love something, set it free..."
Xbf's position since DAY 1 has been that he does not commit because he believes that a paper forces people to stay together. His idea of commitment is that he was in our relationship, because he "wanted" to be there not that he was forced. I understood and accepted his point... even believing it. One of the women from my support group pointed something out: its possible that his parents divorce was what makes him so scared of the outcome, feeling financially vulnerable, not knowing the outcome of what happens with the result of his empire. Feeling that 1/2 was not fair. THIS may be why its so important NOW to have this sorted out...to live through the outcome NOW... so he can see what happens. (hope that makes sense).
One thing I know for sure... he wants me in his life...forever. Who knows with what label. This is not acceptable to me, right now as It does keep me on the hook. He will want to maintain "coffee time" and to be connected. As much as I want time with him...its not fair to myself to hurt myself. Therefore, until ALL business matters are finalized and on paper... I feel that I should try to refrain. I know he will not like or understand this (as he will feel rejected), so I will need to clarify why. In the mediator meeting yesterday, he stated that he felt I had removed the possibility off the table for good. I need to be truthful or he will never feel like he can approach me. I need to be cautious here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Today is a new day... I still really need to find out who I am, and what I like. To become whole again. To open myself up to all possibilities ... to just be open. To live life. To be the person who is passionate about people and passionate about herself. To be a role model for my daughter and make my parents proud. To stand for my values and see them thru fruition. Able to give/receive unconditional love (including myself). To be responsible for my happiness, knowing who she is. Confident Magic ~~ wearing it! (in a soft tone).
I am excited!
Good morning All...
Also, any dream experts out there? For 2 nights in a row I have been having sex dreams about my Xbf. I have not dreamed of him, sexually before. I just wonder why now?
Today is my anniversary. I had a goal that we would be celebrating on this day, having dinner. So, I am a little sad.
Putting on a smile... Magic
Magic,
I'm very happy to come here and read that you had a great time away and made some necessary discoveries about your. Yes, we had been telling you some of those things for months, but it took getting you out of your comfort zone and being away to really "get it".
You will continue to evolve and yes, you will become the woman and parent that your daughter will be proud of. It all takes time and patience and you will be back slides, but that's okay, just as long as you understand that you need to learn from them and continue moving forward.
As for the dreams, I think all of the talks about sex last week and today being your anniversary have had your dreams on a roller coaster. I wouldn't put too much stock into it right now because you need to keep the focus on you and you don't want to barter "sex" to get the financials done.
Keep the focus on you and continue working on yourself. You've learned a lot about yourself over the weekend and I want to see more of the new Magic posting here about herself and what she's doing for herself.
There is always hope!
I am anxious to share with my Xbf these discoveries,
IMO, you do NOT “share” (aka ‘voice”) them to your X.
You…
I believe I walked away with the tools to live my goal. Now its time to live them.
LIVE THEM.
Magic,
I agree with Eric 100% in the fact that you do not share anything about what you have discovered over the weekend. These are your tools to use to help you, not him.
Now, it is time to live, learn and grow in order to meet your goals.
I third that notion. Less talking. More action. He doesn't need to know what you learned. Just love them for you.
*Fourth!*
fifth.
Just forget him for a while. enjoy your new improved self.
whats the benefit of telling him? what is your goal?
sixth
time to chime in... I agree with you all.
The stuff I want to talk/share about are the behaviours of my past and how they have affected who I am today and my reasonings.... He has expressed interest in my weekend. If/when he seems deeply interested, I will share bits then. I really think he would be interested, when he is open...someday.
We worked together again today. He went out of his way again to make a coffee pic~nic. (him making coffee from home, thermos & my old coffee mugs, fresh cookies. I appreciated it. Kept my stuff/talk to myself. Chatted about work, then worked some more & time for home. He texted later in the evening to tell me that the TV repairman fixed his tv and cheers. I was out having dinner with my parents/daughter, then shopping with my daughter. I texted a smile back.
He requested that we put in a full day at work tomorrow. Make hay while the sun shines attitude.
I'm good!
super excited !!! xbf made plans earlier this week to go to a movie with my DD for tonight. I was really happy that he made plans in advance with her. Today, he brought cookies and coffee, casual convo & then we were back to work. He had mentioned that my daughter had texted saying movie choices were slim for tonight and he suggested dinner. He was mentioning that he wanted to go see Hustle, I said ya I did too, but not really a movie to go with DD. He agreed. Then a little while later, he casually said "if you don't have any plans tonight, maybe you'd like to join DD and I for dinner". I didn't say anything right away. I was casual. Said "ya, maybe...let me think about it and ask DD to make sure she was ok with it too". Then he left for a little while. When he came back we discussed a few options for restaurants.
Oh, another thing... He had packed a little go away gift for me (margarita beer, gum and power bar) in the suitcase I was supposed to take on my last weekend away. I found it today.
So... I am excited!!! But, without expectations because I know he is a nice guy and is possibly just wanting company/family time without attachments. Its really hard to understand that he could want just this without the relationship. I am trying to keep my head on track here and just enjoy the company. I will not take over the convo or get all decked out for tonight with heels (like I want)... I will be casual.
My glute exercises must be working.. he was sure to comment that todays client was checking out my butt!! (I don't have one), so I said "what butt?" he said that my butt looks good in my new jeans... and that he noticed our client checking me out. I was thrilled and excitedly enthusiastically said "THANKS!!"
It was a nice evening. I may have appeared to be a little too happy. We shared some of my wine from my large glass and then ordered another to share. Good convo's. Nothing deep/intense. He took food off my plate & ate it. I would say he is comfortable around me again. DD drove us back. He was in front seat. I was in back, behind him. He reached out to hug her and then put his hand around the seat to touch my leg, saying good bye. I then switched to the front seat, somehow we ended up holding hands for a moment. ..... Now, its over and I'm a little sad today. So thrilled that it happened. I might be working with him a little bit today, as we had client appointments. So, at 12:30 I texted to say let me know about clients. He hadn't heard from them yet.
... waiting to hear from him about clients. Going about my day, church, cleaning, exercising, sitting on couch yapping with DD.
I know this sounds good.... however, he is a nice guy and may just be having a nice time with us... no commitments. I have to keep that in mind.
Glad to hear you had some positives. I know what you mean about nice guy. My h was nice guy to me before monster of mlc. It hurts to see him be a nice guy to ow and her whole family. Grrrrr
Just an observation....
The stuff I want to talk/share about are the behaviours of my past and how they have affected who I am today and my reasonings.
You say that you want to talk/share about YOUR past and YOUR behaviors...then you go on to talk ALL about YOUR XBF.
Personally, I see the same pattern as before.
You saying this is about YOU
BUTYOUR ACTING ON WHAT YOUR XBF SAYS/DOES.
Can you see what I see?
From where I sit, I feel like you continue to use DB as a tactic to get YOUR BF back.
At some point....the tactics....will not change the root cause of the problem.
IMO, he tossed out some "crumbs" and you snatched up and chowed down. How are these actions in line with YOUR goals?
Hi Eric,
Thanks for chiming in and holding me accountable. At this point it is very easy to slip back.
I was posting about my weekend. I was excited to have some family time and to be included in his Saturday night plans & was journalling and for anyone to read. It is hard not to have expectations. I am back on track, trying not to see it for anything than what it was. Dinner. Unless he makes it more than dinner, dinner is what it was.
Today, I contacted the mediation office to enquire about the minutes of the base to our new agreement. I should be receiving them by tomorrow. I need to stay focused on THAT. Getting that completed and signed. Collecting my outstanding salary, etc. Having funds in my account so that I can review my future.
I am not going to accept "all" crumbs.... I will be selective. Approx 1/2 hr ago, he asked if I was going to go into work. I don't think I will. Today, I need to get my work stuff done from home. I have plenty to do here. I would only be going to "see" him.... and that hurts me. I would be accepting his "coffee" crumb today....so, won't go unless a client appt is scheduled.
I am truly trying to get back to Focusing on Me... and what I want and what I like to do. Its just challenging when we work/see each other so much. Im sure it seems like I post alot about him... Hard to figure out who I AM...
I was excited to have some family time and to be included in his Saturday
I’m glad you saw what I was trying to communicate. Look up ^^^ see anything in this sentence?
Today, I contacted the mediation office to enquire about the minutes of the base to our new agreement. I should be receiving them by tomorrow. I need to stay focused on THAT. Getting that completed and signed. Collecting my outstanding salary, etc. Having funds in my account so that I can review my future.
GREAT!
I am not going to accept "all" crumbs.... I will be selective.
I took the liberty of rewriting this sentence for you….
I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY CRUMBS FROM ANYONE – I KNOW WHO I AM AND I KNOW WHAT I WANT. I KNOW WHAT I AM WORTH AND I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR LESS.
I am truly trying to get back to Focusing on Me...
So I read an interesting article in a psych magazine the other day….
Apparently it takes between 2 – 8 months to changes ones behavior.
MM, I believe to change how you want to live your life so that YOU focus on YOUR goals, means that EVERY DAY that you have to focus on that goal. I would wake up every morning and figure out what YOU want to do that day for YOURSELF. I understand that you and XBF work together so you will have some interactions. When you are not working together you should have a plan for what you are going to do that day. The plan IMO, should NOT include him.
Hard to figure out who I AM...
Honestly, I do not believe that one day you wake up and figure it all out. Nope. It is a process, a journey if you will. Maybe one thing you can do is this….
Write down the qualities of who you want to be and then describe how you view those qualities.
For example:
I want to be a better friend to my lady friends.
That means that I am more open and honest with them, I make an effort to spend X time with them. I listen and do not judge them. I am there when they need me.
Make sense?
Hi Eric..
Yes... I purposely typed "included, his Saturday"... I was included into his date night with my daughter. I knew that it was HIS term (not a date)... but, I accepted knowingly. To see what I was like, to see what I can handle. Glad my DD was there for damage control. I was a little too happy she said. 7/10. So, need to take it back a few notches. Let him create the convo's, let him approach & come to me more.
He called a little while ago, asking if he should pick up coffee and if I was going to work. I declined, as I am into a project and deep into it. He can't expect me to drop my priorities. Mixed messages (get work done/ social with him). I did not give any attitude when declining, just matter of fact.
Eric, THANK YOU for new mind set...' I WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY CRUMBS FROM ANYONE – I KNOW WHO I AM AND I KNOW WHAT I WANT. I KNOW WHAT I AM WORTH AND I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR LESS.'.... Im not sure that all his coffees are crumbs all the time. I do know that he is trying... his way. (keeping his options open).
I agree that it will take TIME for me to establish my new system. I need to remind myself OFTEN to refocus and put the fcous back onto me... really tough to do, but am determined.
Thanks for your advice & tips.... Please continue to check in on me and keep holding me accountable. THX!!!
"Im sure it seems like I post alot about him..."
its not that it "seems" that way. It IS that way.
i'd say 95% of your posts are about him.
from our perspective, there really is no MM - theres only this MM who acts and reacts based on his movements, without him, she wouldnt have anything to post. Theres nothing here about MM as an individual - maybe a random dinner with her daughter, but thats about it.
so on the thinnest surface, your actions (not accepting crumbs) attempt to say one thing. But in reality, you're still all about him. its still always about him.
This is my observation as well.
Hi Ken & Gabby,
Yes.. my posts are 95% about him, because I work soooooo much with him and there is soooo much to say about that. Posting random things about my life seem pointless... but, I can see why you want me to do so... its about focusing more on me... so, will try:
1) came to decide today that I need to embrace being single. As much as I hate the term and the lifestyle... I need to experience it for what it is.... or at least try.. its for education and my growth. SO, without ego..... Xbf and I were at one of our pick up locations and one of our associates made a joking comment about "my husband", I was quick to reply laughingly "I don't have a husband", then he corrected himself "ok, your bf", I laughed and said, "but, I don't have a bf".... I was being playful, but accepting what I was saying and speaking the truth. Normally, I would have let this guy think we were married, and have been happy at that.
2) later in the day, Xbf asked if I wanted him to bring down coffee to our lot. As much as I wanted "social" time, I really didn't want a coffee.... and realized that I would have only said "yes", for the social time..... so, when he asked, I replied "no thanks, I'm beyond coffee".... realizing that I was much more in the mood for a beer. He came with coffee for himself, but I didn't hang around much for the social part, I got involved with work stuff instead. Popping in and out of his coffee moment.
3) an old bf/friend was texting with me today (we do so regularly and he knows my entire situation and has been helpful)... so, I invited him out for a beer/snacks. This old bf is getting married in June (safe). I was in the mood to be "out" in public and he was in the mood for a beer. He had helped me a few weeks ago deciding what was fair in business division. We had a laugh... lots of laughs actually as we walked down memory lane. We also discussed the sexual tension between Xbf and myself and he helped me to put things back into perspective and respect myself.
It was nice to be "out" in public amongst other people. I really need to get OUT more..... as much as I do go out... I need more, I guess. My world is still way too small....thus making him (Xbf) seem like the only guy available.... therefore I behave like he is THE ONLY Guy !!!
Sexual Tension:
I feel that my Xbf may be promoting himself to me to make sexual advances to him. Telling me that he is "hyper-sensitive" and "vulnerable", etc.... It appears as though he is also getting angry towards me (at times) for not giving in. ^^^^ This was MY job... to recognize his needs and to give in. I am not sure what I feel about this. I love sex with him. I would love to have sex with him, but I feel that if I do...then I send the message that I don't need a commitment (and I do). I also know that I would have major expectations after the fact. I would love to just say to him "buddy, sign here and you get the whole package!!!". I feel he is trying to make it "my idea" and removing himself from responsibility.
This of course is ALL mind reading.... however, I do know his sex drive and his "ways".
What message am I sending by not putting the moves on him, like he is wanting? What about flirting... in this circumstance what message would I be sending if I was flirting back? Would it state that I am interested but... sign the contract, already? or does it show that I am desperately waiting for his move?
Curious to know how to proceed? Opinions?
MY ANSWER: (as recently discovered, I need to find my own answer)..... I think I should just continue to keep myself to myself, respect myself. I don't want to wreck all of my efforts of him finally respecting me, but I don't want to lose him over this either. I miss physical touch.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK... back to focus on ME... trying on "single" today.
can someone explain how to go slow?... what exactly does that look like?
Worked a full day yesterday. During our drive, I noticed he was moody, unreceptive. I had wanted to share the base of my weekend away so that he understood it was not a girls wine/shopping/men bashing trip as he had expressed. I explained I belong to a large organization of men/women) and the weekend was about self discovery and that I was amazed at the stuff I discovered (I didn't share what).... He seemed interested/jealous that he couldn't get away to do time like that. He is overwhelmed with work and house responsibilities. I said I would pay and manage everything if he wanted to go. I left it at that. Later on, over coffee, we discussed our financial agreement...apparently its a good result when feeling both happy and mad. Reviewing this got me weepy/teary eyed. It also lead to a relationship discussion where he was stating that he is happy that the financials are getting behind us and that he can hopefully start to have fun. He mentioned that if we were not expecting clients and if it was a snowy weekend, etc, he would have asked me to tag along to the family Easter out of town (DD had her own invite) but that he wanted the 3 of us to go. He did state that he has been suggesting coffee time, hang out, etc as a base towards a possible relationship going forward. That many people get back together. He was upset that the previous night I pulled out the driveway in the opposite direction of heading home. This lead to him having a rotten evening and nights sleep. He was also very moody yesterday because of it (he said). He does not like not knowing what I am doing. He said that I could meet someone any day. It just happens. I said, only if you are wearing your "open" sign. He does not feel like he is wearing his "open" sign. I think, he thinks I have mine turned on now. Which, I am trying on... I mentioned the sexual tension between us. I forget how it went but he mentioned that he just doesn't want to have sex with just anyone. That it has something to do with me. I wish I could recall, but I know that it made me feel better. He started saying his "i dunno" comments again. I then said "i dunno either"... that I am scared he will be the same person in a new relationship too" he said "but, I thought you had it all together now that you have done the weekend"... I said "no, i was a work in progress" for example if we were to reconcile it would take work. That If my old behaviour of "dog with a bone" should come out. I would require his patience and maybe a signal to stop. He then chimed in and stated that he would require work too, that its just not me. That he is miserable and he is working on that. He is trying... he says. He was saying that he has learned a lot and is trying to change. He wants to be a happier person. He then mentioned that he would like to go seadooing (and if I wanted to join him), etc... mentioned a bunch of things that included me. This would all be possible once our financials have been signed. This is why he wanted to maintain coffee/connections and getting along in the process. I asked if he was wanting me to reciprocate with offers. He said yes, but that he may say no sometimes. Then our client showed up.
After the client, he was driving me back to my car and asked if I wanted to stop to go p (as I had been holding for a long time). During this drive, he had been mumbling about his dinner options and what he was going to have. Then the convo switched to beer somehow.... pretty sure he was leading. Just before I hopped out of the car, I suggested maybe we should go have a beer (although I was much more casual after his lead...it was a good casual offer), I didn't wait for his answer and hoped out of the car to run into the washroom. When I came back, he offered to go for that beer. I said "sure"
While out for that beer, we sat at the bar. He was preoccupied with all the low cut tops that the waitresses were wearing. Normally, I can handle this... but since BD I have become insecure. During our beer/pizza, we had small talk. It seemed a bit strained at times. We discussed his dads recent split from his long time gf. He wants to spend more time with his dad again. They usually have breakfast on Fridays. I asked if sometime I could see his dad. (I really miss all of his family). He said that would be nice and that I could come for breaky sometime. This is big, as during our relationship he kept his dad private & to himself most of the time... saying that he feared I would take over the conversation and he wanted one on one time with his dad. I tried to discuss his friends & their happenings, but he didn't have much to say. He doesn't like to socialize with his married friends, as the wives don't seem to enroll him. His single friend is having a rough exit from his marriage and doesn't seem to be a positive influence for him. I brought up my new friends and he seemed a interested in hearing about them. Especially the new wealthy friends. He stated that money doesn't buy happiness. I said I agreed, but their relationship seemed to have it all.
I drank only one beer, he had two. Then the bill came. He did not seem to want to rush, so we continued to sit there. I found it difficult to find things to talk about. We usually always talk about work. I was really hoping to have some laughs, but it just wasn't coming. I suggested we share another beer, he said he was done as he had already had two. We sat for a while longer, then he started to put on his coat. I followed his lead and we left. In the parking lot, I had jokingly said "that wasn't painful"... he laughed and said "no, it was good". He then drove me back to my car, handed me my keys. I didn't linger. I rubbed his arm and said thanks for the beer & good night. He said he will call me tomorrow. (We have a client appointment at 6pm).
Is it normal that is was a bit strained? The night before beer with an old friend, was full of belly laughs and direct convo. I hope that he didn't have high expectations that this would be an awesome fun time... and isn't turned off now.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So... today.... I am trying to put the focus back on me & trying to figure out what the heck to do on a day off! DD is STILL sleeping.... I expect she will sleep till 2pm!!
I will browse around on fb, pinterest, web, .... then do some exercises. Maybe a little house cleaning. Then...???? I have options this weekend (nice).... one friend has invited me on Saturday night, over night to go to his/his gf new place that they are building out of town for bonfire/drinks. Then on Sunday, my new friend has invited me to her place for Easter dinner with her family (steak, yum!!).
Hi Gabby... The convo is slowly progressing.... he is offering up more of his desires to be a better person, to me to. He is wanting to date. Sounds like soon. I know his "if" convo isn't quite what I need to hear, but it does offer an insight to where he wants this to go. He did offer up that 6months ago he was NOT thinking like this at all.
My explanation was about sharing... having a convo. Engaging him into wanting self discovery for himself, with proper help. I didnt give it away. He seems interested, just can't prioritize.
Trying "single" on was the night before... I went out with an old friend, laughed and laughed. Being "single" is doing what I want, when I want to.
Hi Gabby... I think you misunderstood. He was cranky yesterday because I turned left out of the driveway instead of right... going right suggests going home.
I will not admit that about being mad, because that is not even close to what my feelings are. I don't care if he was mad or not about my weekend. The old magic would have been concerned about what he was feeling. My objective in telling him about my weekend was about sharing an interesting thing about self discovery. Wanting to share with a friend concept. Wanting to share with my old best friend. I am eager to tell him all of my new discovery, but I won't. Not until he is more engaged in the outcome with me. As he is struggling with his own path, I wanted him to know that these types of weekend exist. That I had no interest in going and was looking for ways to not go. How I was making excuses, etc. and then how powerful my weekend was. And how beneficial self discovery is.
Gabby, looking back to where I was a year ago, to where I am now... there is major progression. Im sure you can't understand because you are not fully aware of who my Xbf was. Bond seems the best one to understand him and his motives. Progression in convo is important. Listening is too. This is important, if I truly want to hear him and possible reconciliation. Action is him admitting that he wants to date, and actually is spending time outside of work with me.
I am adamant about trying to focus on me... I see how important it is for my journey. I need to push through my fears (being single) and embrace it. To fully grow and be worthy of a GREAT future relationship with him or another. I am eager to do this!! Just because I post about him, does not mean that I am focused on him.
My only true dilemma at this time is to fight myself on time... I am anxious to jump all over this but know its not for the best. I recognize that I want to control his timing here... but, I won't. I truly want this reconciliation to be HIS desire, not just mine...therefore I need to step back and let him do the work (if thats what he wants). I just don't fully understand what all that means. What does him doing the work, look like?
Xbf's position since DAY 1 has been that he does not commit because he believes that a paper forces people to stay together. His idea of commitment is that he was in our relationship, because he "wanted" to be there not that he was forced. I understood and accepted his point... even believing it. . . .
One thing I know for sure... he wants me in his life...forever. Who knows with what label. This is not acceptable to me, right now as It does keep me on the hook.
I am totally confused, MM. I thought your new boundary was that you wanted a marriage commitment from him? Now you're right back to talking about dating again, and having sex?
It's like last week never happened.
Starsky
Let me rephrase honestly.... Just because I post about him, does not mean that I am "only" focused on him.... I do take breaks...LOL
I honestly see the importance of focusing on self.. its healthier. I am eager to learn and now when a thought of him/us pops in my head I try to switch it into a thought for me....what does Magic want to do?
I am scared too. This morning I woke up because I was having a bad dream about not trusting him. I am scared that my trust level in him has diminished a lot and this will be a challenge to get back.
Starsky.... thats a long term goal.... it has to start with convos, dating, exclusive and committed and eventually sex.
I do not expect a marriage proposal after our financial agreement is completed. It has to have a new beginning...doesnt it?
Starsky.... thats a long term goal.... it has to start with convos, dating, exclusive and committed and eventually sex.
I do not expect a marriage proposal after our financial agreement is completed. It has to have a new beginning...doesnt it?
After 20 years of being together, I think it's entirely reasonable for the reconciliation to begin with a marriage proposal from him to you. He knows that what you want, and it's what you SAID you now INSISTED upon (unless I've misunderstood the last few weeks entirely).
Otherwise, you are destined for more of the same 'round-and-'round, and your words will ring hollow to him.
But I suspect this is ALL falling on deaf ears anyway -- ours to you, and yours to him.
Starsky
Nice to see that I can come back to someplace and find that things are exactly the same.
Posts only about your XBF (at least you call him your BF now), you constantly saying how much you've changed (but don't), all the mindreading on your part, the analyzing of every little move he makes, the arguing your point with other posters when they call you out on your behavior, etc.
Oh and by the way...you are arguing your point. Carry on.
Starsky.., I am not insistant on marriage... I am insistant on commitment.... like I had before, except in our OWN home. THAT is my firm boundary. I am not opposed to marriage, I would accept it... but it is NOT the priority. Being with the right person is.
Sorry you feel that way Bond... I agree to a point on the mind reading.. just not sure where I am being called out for my behaviour. Gabby wanted me to admit something that wasn't true. So, defending and clarifying myself is not arguing.
For those who are following, it was acknowledged during my weekend away that I struggle with finding my truths/authenticity/finding my own answers. You may call it deaf ears /same behaviour or arguing....however, it takes time for me to see and to sort through my sh!t and if you don't have the patience for me...thats your issue. I can't worry about trying to please others. I now understand why this happens and accept myself through it. I will be patient for me, even if you don't. I will accept my struggle and work through the other side.
To add for Starsky.... I would not accept a marriage proposal right now anyway... HE needs to make some changes.... I need to see if who he is (the new him), is who I really want to be with.
I need to see who he is now... or who he may have always been and ignored for my benefit.... This will take time.
I can see what you suggest that a proposal could be my starting point, if I were sure that he is who I WANT..... does this make sense?
its like I am interviewing him, at the moment.
To add for Starsky.... I would not accept a marriage proposal right now anyway... HE needs to make some changes.... I need to see if who he is (the new him), is who I really want to be with.
I need to see who he is now... or who he may have always been and ignored for my benefit.... This will take time.
OK, thanks for clarifying, but I think you're headed for simply more of the same from him.
A few weeks ago, you posted this:
You asked "why" I want this relationship? not because its easier, but because I actually like a lot about him... who he is as a person. We have history that I am not willing to throw away without a very good fight. The fight needs to be about me standing up for myself. The fight is not about me caving into his requests. The fight means I can rest knowing that I did my very best. Not sure if that means that it conflicts with:
1) doing what HE wants on his terms (his way, his time schedule), coffees, connections, dinner, no sex.
OR
2) like Bond suggests... spending time without "expectations", being more like a friend. Listening, having coffee's, connections, dinners, etc... NOO expectations!
OR
3) or with me saying "these terms don't work for me", cut his arse off (like you suggest)
Your post from this morning sounds a helluva more like just more of #1, than it does like either #2 or #3.
Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but if you don't push for marriage as the form of commitment you're going to require going forward, I think you're just looking for years and years of the same push-pull from him. You already seem to be backing off of your new boundaries.
Starsky
Tx Starsky... hmmm, I will review that... you may have a point.
I would say I am doing more of #2, but pushing down my expectations. Would that make it #1?
Marriage is a GREAT idea... but, I need to see his changes too. If he is incapable of those changes, Im not sure I want marriage from him then. I need to see if he is willing to make the efforts to change, to look at himself .. like I was forced to do too. This changed me... If he prefers to be his OLD self...then, I'm not certain I want it either... so at this point marriage suggestions are irrelevant. I am not suggesting he change... he needs to want to change for himself and to recognize the effort it takes to have a good relationship. It doesn't come as a given.
Im taking this time to treat it like an interviewing process... Im going to watch and see what he does and says... To listen really to what he wants in life and with who, etc.
Thanks for trying to hold me accountable to what you believed was my goal... and it still just might be... but, I need to see who he is first. Can I ask how you think I will get more of the same from him? I see it as His words and action beginnings are showing me that he does want more in life than what we had. That he is being a man of his word (always was) and that after our finances are behind us, he wants to explore reconciliation, possibly...that is why he is insistent on getting along and having coffee moments, etc. He even suggested a business road trip this past week.
Can I ask how you think I will get more of the same from him?
I believe it was former US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, who once said about pornography:
"I can't define it; but I know what it is when I see it."I just don't feel anything different from either one of you as you described those lengthy recent exchanges. Certainly not from you anything that -- as a guy -- would make me feel "Whooaaa . . . she needs more from me. This isn't going to be so easy anymore."
Not sure if I ever recommended this to you before, but you should look up old threads by a poster named Pearlharbr. Hers was also a LTR (not married), and she also finally decided "I need more from him!" and she held remarkably FIRM on that, hardly ever wavering, and eventually he stepped up and they ended up happily together.
I think the difference in how Pearl came across and how you're coming across (at least how you describe it to us here) will be striking to anyone who reads both sitches.
tx Starsky... I will check that out.
From what I understood/understand and from how Bond reports it...is that it doesn't matter what I WANT, when dealing with MLC.... so, this is a challenged position. This is about what HE wants. I am respecting that too.
For me...
I get what you are saying... and maybe with time... once he is through his MLC, I could make such a stand... if I still felt that way about our relationship.
Oh there's no need to apologize to me for anything. I just see the same things happening despite all your protests to the contrary.
I'm confused bond. I'm trying to follow your suggestions by listening and having a few coffee moments and accepting his leads on dinners/drinks tiring not to have expectations or at least lowered. I've been making progress on our financial agreement too.
Last night I went for dinner with a friend, then a long walk and out to movie with dd.
Where am I doing the same things?
So yesterday, Xbf starts filling my head again with the possibility of reconciliation, yaddda yadda.... I was believing it. Then, he started talking about this real estate agent that is interested in him. I walked away, thought I don't like that. Went back, told him, that he hurt me, indulging in this OW and that I deserve better... then I left.
When I got back, he had flipped a switch and was sorry and started to fill my head again on what a possible relationship could look like. But, he is scared of history repeating itself. This went circular for a while. I was trying to get him to commit. I offered up exclusive, transparent & working on a new relationship. He liked to hear it but again, wouldn't commit. He even pretty much said that he might be trying to cake eat. So... I basically laid it on the table. Saying I want a reconciliation, but if he is not willing to put both feet in, commit & be exclusive....then I'm out. I told him to go figure his stuff out.
I am worth so much more than his crumbs.... I see this now.
I slipped up.... I totally lost my self value over the past few days...again.
I now see that having "coffee's, etc".... pull me back in. I need to let him know that I won't be indulging... that its too confusing. That I deserve better.
I need to get our finances finalized.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last night went overnight to a friends place out of town....was great to be away and have something to do and somewhere to go.
DD and Xbf went to the movies... was very ironic that the movie they thought was supposed to be all "action" ended up to be about family & life is short, family means everything and a guy who worked too much. He texted me after their date. "had a nice time and the movie was good (family stuff not just guns and car chases) then jack astors... the cat and DD are on the way...good nite".... I didn't reply. In discussion with my DD today, she said it made him think...lol
~~~~~~~~~~~
Today, I have easter dinner plans at my new friends place out of town. Out of my comfort zone to drive there...but, living this new me life ... I try new things.
OH.... I am anxious to read all about Pearlharbr!!!
thinking of sending this text:
Been thinking... You need to figure out your stuff. Meanwhile, its just too confusing to spend time with you right now. Lets focus on our financial deal and get it finalized this week.
comments?
Don't send that text. If you really have to satisfy that itch to send a text, I might I suggest that you only address that the two of you sit down and focus on getting the financial stuff finalized this week.
No talks about figuring out his stuff...that's his problem...not yours. He's a big boy and you are not his mother.
Tx Job... I've been following along in Pearlharbr's thread suggested by Starsky...
Very interesting... she initially did it to see his reaction. WOW!
I sent that text last night... now need to follow through today. No more being baited and kept on the hook by his crumbs. I deserve and want more!
My greatest fear at this point is that he will respect my request & actually stop initiating coffee time, etc. That he will take me seriously and really leave me alone. Because I asked, and because it says Im hurting.
Why are you afraid that he'll do what you asked? Isn't that what you wanted or are you looking for a reaction? You know, if you put out a boundary and/or request....YOU HAVE TO MEAN IT! It's not done to get a reaction or hope that he will coming running back w/promises that never happen.
Learn to set your boundaries and truly mean them. Your last paragraph tells me that you really haven't changed if you are afraid he'll follow through on your request. Either you want him to leave you alone or you don't...you need to make up your mind and stick with the decision.
Actions speak louder than words and you need to practice each and every day what you learned while away on your trip. You do not want to fall back into old patterns. Until he sees that you actually mean what you've said, he'll continue on his merry way and not do anything about the relationship because he knows he has you hook, line and sinker. You are that little fish that is hoping that when he drops his line you'll be the first to gobble up the bait...guess what...it's better to be the one that is hard to catch because the work will make him appreciate you all the more.
Bottom line...respect yourself and others will respect you.
I totally agree Job.... TOTALLY !!!!
I am setting my boundaries (but, because I still care...it may come across as a manipulative game)...Im just being honest. I really need to learn to walk the talk. Its not a game, but trying on my new self-value and independence.
Ultimately, I guess I want him to leave me alone if he isn't prepared to do the work and commit to me. I deserve better than someone who is entertaining OW's attention just to boost his own ego. Again, I don't even think he likes her.
Pearlharbr actually did it ALL....for the reaction.
I need to see action. I need to show action too... that I mean it. I do not want to be that little fish anymore (back up plan), etc. I want to be hard to catch. TEACH ME!!!
I am respecting myself when I stand behind that message I sent last night... no more getting roped into his confusion. GO FIGURE IT OUT!! Meanwhile, leave me alone!!
Pearlharbr actually did it ALL....for the reaction.
If that's all you got from her threads, you totally missed her point and her growth.
Starsky
Starsky.... she has said it...often.. Her words.
However, that doesn't mean I am!!
MM,
Pearl was fed up with your boyfriend's lack of commitment, and his infidelity. Yes, she of course was interested to see if she even MATTERED to him, and how he would react to her laying the hard boundary ("this is what I need in a man; whether or not that's YOU, you need to let me know"). But she was also genuinely DONE with things as they were, and she was fully prepared to move on if he didn't respond with what she needed in the relationship.
More importantly, as he continued to waffle and throw some crumbs, she HELD FIRM to her "Nope -- this is what I need; let me know if you can be that" boundary.
These weren't "tactics" to her, to try to win her BF back. These were genuine expressions of where she was, and effective communication of her new commitment boundaries.
Starsky
Starsky...
I am pretty much there myself. I pretty much told him on Saturday too that I am prepared to do the work in a committed relationship, but ONLY with someone who is prepared to do it with me. Two feet in. This is what I need, but am not chasing you or begging you to do this. If this is what you want too, tell me. He couldn't.
So, I am very interested in Pearl's story. Learning how to be firm and stand for getting what I want in a relationship. If he can't do this with me...then I roll along. I just need him to know that I am not being baited anymore. This is my authentic genuine feeling of where I am now too.
~~~~~~~~~
This morning I contacted him about work related stuff. He replied about work and sandwiched in his reply from last night "ok, to sunday evening text", then back to work comments.
Whatever that means....
This is what I need, but am not chasing you or begging you to do this.
This is fine, but two things:
1. He already knew this; and so
2. He most likely perceived your text not as a statement of a new boundary, but as chasing him.
Starsky
Starsky,
#2? how??
I think he will GET it, and will leave me alone.... at least for awhile... or maybe try to hook me again in a few days.
Well, this time I actually mean it... I deserve better than his scraps!
Im scared and excited.
At least now, I won't be sucked in by his "niceness" or "coffee's" that keep us connected and me hopeful. He's cake eating. He's keeping me "there" for back up.... ^^^ this is BS!! Tired of accepting the bone he occasionally throws at me, and being temporarily happy for it.
OR do I truly want him to figure out his sh!t and stop enabling the bait... to see if he really wants a committed relationship with me. If he makes no more offers, then I need to KNOW that.... now. I'm ready. He can spiral in his own mess. I'm tired of being IN HIS CONFUSION.
Starsky,
#2? how??
I think he will GET it, and will leave me alone.... at least for awhile... or maybe try to hook me again in a few days.
I'll give a stab at it for starsky.
You keep telling him this will no follow through. You keep reminding him of the same thing. You are chasing him by telling him the same thing over and over instead of just backing off and following through.
Yep --
BINGO.Starsky
he was irritable today....
said "no thx" in text to my coffee offer today. Said that I was busy with a client... didn't want to make him feel bad. He arrived at work with coffee for himself and a fresh pack of cookies. I was reading, when he arrived...then intermittently worked on our vehicles, then back to reading...I didn't even sit with him
...its a start.
I really see that I need to have boundaries... a minimum as to what I require. My bottom line is ... an exclusive, committed relationship where we address our issues.
"
Pearlharbr actually did it ALL....for the reaction. "
Wow are you totally wrong. That just shows how little you understand. Listen to starsky.
"said "no thx" in text to my coffee offer today. Said that I was busy with a client... didn't want to make him feel bad. He arrived at work with coffee for himself and a fresh pack of cookies. I was reading, when he arrived...then intermittently worked on our vehicles, then back to reading...I didn't even sit with him
...its a start."
You're still trying out tactics on him. If you weren't you wouldn't still be analyzing EVERY little thing he does. I mean you're the only person who details every movement and things that their spouse actually brings. "FRESH" cookies?
"I really see that I need to have boundaries... a minimum as to what I require. My bottom line is ... an exclusive, committed relationship where we address our issues."
That's not a boundary. That's an ultimatum on your part. You pretty much gave him an ultimatum.
I know you find it difficult to believe Bond, but... I know its not an ultimatum, its how I'm feeling.
And Pearharbr's words more than once... was that she did it for reaction. Which surprised me & she even got support knowing her position. She was given step by step details on what to do. Very surprised.
These are my tactics.... I can't be bothered. I just wanted to post and be supported on my 'day one'.
"Saying I want a reconciliation, but if he is not willing to put both feet in, commit & be exclusive....then I'm out."
Um this is an ultimatum.
"Which surprised me & she even got support knowing her position. She was given step by step details on what to do. Very surprised."
She got guidance same way as you did, but she actually grew. As being one of those who helped along with others, we could actually see her learning. You're not in the same league as her right now. She learned eventually to really concentrate on herself and not manipulate her BF who is now her H.
For some reason you can't see things the way we do.
bond.. her beginnings were very manipulative and she admits it. Yes, she grew. I will learn too. I am not starting from a manipulative place (mine is more about self respect and protecting my own heart).
That statement may appear as an ultimatum, but it was not stated to him...its my inside boundary. There is a difference.
Even "IF" I were to be "starting" with an agenda (like she did)... she had step by step instructions daily and that surprises me. She also got a bunch of hand holding through each and every interaction (even small beginnings). I may need this too. It just so happens that I work/see/interract with xbf more than most.
Ultimately, I do deserve a committed exclusive relationship.... if he isn't prepared to give that... thats ok. I just need to know.
Gabby... no... the whole pearlharbr story is strategy. Its very interesting. But very strategic and manipulating.
I never had a strategy before. The diff between pearl and myself is she had intentions to play him, to see him sweat. And the supporter even suggested she read a thread of a woman who pretended to have an imaginary boyfriend. My intention is to save me and my self worth... not accepting the crumbs anymore. Period. She overcame the part of it being a strategy and grew to want more for herself... this is where I jump in. <<<< this is where I am at!
Her words "right now I am only doing it for me and to make him realize what he threw away." .... I can totally relate & can't help but want my xbf to realize too. But...thats not my sole purpose...or even the main purpose. My sanity is!
This is 'day one' of me saying NO TX for coffee, no more crumbs,
I am on this site for the support and hand holding that it offers.... like many people on here. I have seen many on here for years and years, I'm still a newbie in comparison.
"Gabby... no... the whole pearlharbr story is strategy. Its very interesting. But very strategic and manipulating."
OMG you totally missed the point of her thread. She did what worked and then when she started to grow, she started to outgrow her BF and then told him she didn't need him any more. It wasn't a ploy or a strategy, she was done. She got her self respect back and didnt' keep seeing everything her BF did.
Starsky, myself and others were the ones who helped her so I should know what I'm talking about. You've got it wrong. Plus you probably didn't read all of the things she posted on other people's threads that detailed her growth as well.
You're just reading the words without understanding what was really going on. Without really trying to understand.
also... Gabby... the whole pearl story is sooooo different and firm from the various advice I have received over time.....its time to change up my direction. See if that works. (advice given in db).
The advice given from Bond (listen, light touch, accept coffee/connection, watch baby steps, etc) is totally different than what Pearl was given.
The advice given from Job... get finances in order. <<<< still working on this.
The advice given to Pearlharbr is very different than Bond...its strict... hardly any waffling. Toss him to the curb effect. Treat him like I am the WAS, use those tactics. ALL Strategy. Step by step strategy... and it worked.
Bond... I haven't missed it..... I see the growth...
in listening to her tho...initially she was lost & without any direction. I have not missed anything... Im still at the beginning of her story.
Her words :
"I admit that I do want him to realize the error of his ways. But it's not a pure motive, it's more a desire for vindication at this point."
I too am here (see below):
She did what worked and then when she started to grow, she started to outgrow her BF and then told him she didn't need him any more.
I am wanting to do what works, and along the way grow more. Accept who I am... And be respected..... if that drives me to a place where I am strong and confident without him... so be it.
Like I said... Im still reading & not even half way yet.....
"The advice given to Pearlharbr is very different than Bond...its strict... hardly any waffling. Toss him to the curb effect. Treat him like I am the WAS, use those tactics. ALL Strategy. Step by step strategy... and it worked."
You're NOT getting it! When I mentioned that stuff about touch, etc. with your XBF, it was to start some kind of positive interaction with him. This was at a time when there was none. Now that there is, you have to change the way you interact with him. That shows how little you've grown. You're still seeing things like a ploy or strategy. You have to learn how to adapt on your own based on what's going on. None of the advice you get on here is absolute.
With pearlharbor, her BF wasn't showing her any consistent positive interaction, so she moved on. PLUS she didnt' work with her BF like you do.
I really don't like it when I'm misquoted or misunderstood that way. I'm telling you that you are still misunderstanding what everyone is telling you but you keep arguing.
The point is that pearl did it right.
Yes... pearl did it right. We can agree on that.
When you suggested touch, it worked... how am I not getting it? There has been positive interaction from him for a long time...., you just said for me to change the way I interact with him.... so, I am. How is this not following and why are you belittling my growth?
I am not looking at this like a strategy or a ploy to GET HIM BACK...when will you accept this? This is frustrating to have to keep proving that it is not my style.
What I am doing...is saving my self value/respect...that I am just getting back!!!
All I am saying is that in Pearlharbr's threads ... a strategy is laid out... A clear, step by step strategy... That worked for HER... I like the direction of the strategy, as it helped move her along in her self value. That does NOT suggest that I would do it as a strategy to get him back.... Read what I said... its for my sanity!!!
With pearl, it was still the very early stages and she had not been receiving any positive interaction. She was guided by a very talented strategist, who knew how she could get results... fast. THEY were strategizing... Why is it ok for them to use tactics?
What do you suggest I do here now Bond? Do you like the Pearlharbr approach suggested? or do you believe I should still be "listening, validating, light touch, accepting offers"?
You seem to think that I am misunderstanding something... can you be specific?
rereading the beginnings of Pearlharbr... again...
Yes, I may need a coach and firm direction..(step by step even), yes... hand holding... is Gucci even around? Bond says he was involved... were you involved too Starsky?
Sure, Pearls approach initially was to get positive reaction... BUT!! Her strength and listening skills in the beginning to specific direction is what got her end results. I want that... Sure, she got her relationship back... but more importantly she got her self-respect back...in a big WAY. <<< I want THAT!!
If I get the guy in the end...bonus. If I get my self-respect and sanity back... HOORAY/ back hand springs & cartwheels !!!!
I believe db even recommends the LRT.... I guess I am there now, because I am willing to risk the outcome. My xbf has always wanted to remain friends, therefore I know I can always have his friendship if I want to. What I have to convince him (or better myself) of somehow, someway is that I'm not losing him - he's losing me - he's losing my love, my respect, and my friendship. (as quoted elsewhere).
I think I'm getting tired of waiting for him to "decide" about me/our relationship. Its almost degrading enabling him to "decide". My turn?
~~~~~~ drawing my line in the sand.
"I am not looking at this like a strategy or a ploy to GET HIM BACK...when will you accept this?"
When you do.
"This is frustrating to have to keep proving that it is not my style."
You're the one who constantly feels like you have to "prove" yourself to others. To your XBF, the posters here, etc. You're still looking for validation from others.
"What I am doing...is saving my self value/respect...that I am just getting back!!!"
I see it as more like you're just getting tired of the situation. That's not the same as getting yourself back.
"All I am saying is that in Pearlharbr's threads ... a strategy is laid out... A clear, step by step strategy... That worked for HER... I like the direction of the strategy, as it helped move her along in her self value."
Boy are you wrong. She tried things and if they didn't work, she stopped doing it. That's not a strategy. In the end, she decided to give up when she had her self-esteem back and he came back to her. It wasn't a strategy. It's how her situation evolved on its own.
"I believe db even recommends the LRT."
You don't even understand what the LRT means. It means that you agree to the separation, which you've already done many times, and leave him alone and concentrate on your own life. You can't do that. You write about how close he sits to you, what he does, how he uses the bathroom, what he gets to buy, how many phone calls he makes, etc.
So in the end, you have'nt learned.
Gabby and Bond,
Thanks for your help to this point.
Gabby ~ what do you feel that I am arguing about? If you don't want to hold my hand...thats ok. If the approach isn't a good fit for me, why did Starsky suggest it?
Bond... you insist that I am misunderstanding something, but fail to put into words that can actually help me. Telling me this over and over and over again does not.
I understand that you "see" it that way Bond, and its partly true.... but I also NEED this for my sanity. One needs to fake it till they make it... don't they?
Lets say I admit: I am prepared to use the strategy and tactics of Pearlharbr situation, because it HELPED HER to move forward....... whats the big deal in me being like her? ITs a beginning... a desire to WANT to move forward? Who cares what the motivation is...its the beginning. Hopefully it will move me to a better place...like it did her!
Please stop telling me that I am wrong... I am not wrong... it is blatant and even worded that her thread was PURE strategy and tactical. I am only the messenger! In the BEGINNING, she had motives and strategy was laid out for her step by step and with each interaction she had with him....in the END, her self-esteem was built and supported/directed mainly by Gucci and Puppy. Its strategy when even THEY call it that. Its strategy, when they use tactics from a WAS and apply it. Her situation changed after she followed instructions, then as she grew stronger...it evolved on its own.
I'd ask that you refrain from your constant knock me down position and instead offer a suggestion, a true piece of clear and direct suggestion. I asked you what you feel that I misunderstood, and you can't even tell me.
I understand what LRT is. I have been posting significant changes in him/his behaviour over the past year. He has come a long way.... however, still not close enough yet. That is for my reference and to show his behaviours.
I am tired...YES... but I also realize that if I don't stand up here, I will continue to get more of his "I dunno" position while he admits to possible cake eating and in the process continue to accept his bait that keeps me "there" and on the hook for HIS comfort....not mine. So, its not really up for debate.... I must change direction.
MM,
In re-reading Pearl's old threads just now, I am struck by two things that are highly different from your current situation:
1. How coach-able she was; and
2. How she laid out her boundaries ("This is what I need in a relationship; whether or not that can be YOU is entirely up to you") and then let HIM pursue, rarely (never?) waffling from that position.
I take what limited time I have to help people here and I apply it where it seems to be the most useful. You seem to like to argue with people, you drive them away, and you continue to do the same things over and over again with your BF, with very limited results.
Big difference.
Starsky
Gabby and Bond,
Thanks for your help to this point.
Gabby ~ what do you feel that I am arguing about? If you don't want to hold my hand...thats ok. If the approach isn't a good fit for me, why did Starsky suggest it?
I suggested it because I thought it might help you, MM, to take your and your boyfriend's "name" off of this and circle above another couple more dispassionately, and see their dynamics.
You are WAY too caught up on what Pearl said her original motivations were, and how much "hand-holding" she got (and personally, I see a TON of in-her-face CHALLENGES on those threads from me (as Puppy), Gucci and others!). I SPECIFICALLY suggested her threads as a way for you to learn how to do the impersonal boundary thing -- instead of ultimatums that are littered with "I" and "me" ("This is what *I* need you to do!"), you do "This is what I need from a LTR -- _________, ___________ and ____________. I think it's unfair of me not to let you know that. Whether or not YOU are up for that is entirely up to you, and frankly I don't think you have it in you and that's okay, but I have decided that this is what I need."
And then she let HIM pursue.
Try to focus on THAT part of her sitch -- cuz it worked . . .
like a charm.Starsky
Pearlharbr's letter to her exBF:
xBF,
During these past five months I have looked long and hard at myself and what I want for my life from this point forward. Here are some of the conclusions I have reached:
I want to be with someone who wants to continually strive to be a better person and have a better relationship. I want a man who can and does communicate with me. I want someone who is honest with me and himself.
I deserve to be with someone who will come to me and not turn to another woman when the going gets tough. I want someone who doesn't make excuses about inappropriate contact because there is no such contact at all. Ever.
I need someone who doesn't just say he is willing to do whatever it takes to earn my trust but who makes a plan and follows through with actions that will reassure me. I want a man who goes out of his way to make me feel safe. I want and deserve to be with someone who is willing to crawl through broken glass for me.
I realized that I want and need to be wooed. I want romance, I want fun, I want a man who is thoughtful. I want to feel like the man I am with wants me for me, not just as part of a comfortable life. I want to be with someone who recognizes all I have to offer and who wants to show me why he is the best man for me.
I need to be honest here--I am not sure that is who you are, or the type of man you are. I realized that I didn't feel those things from you or get those things with you before. I will not settle for anything less this time. If "we" can't have that in our relationship, then I am not interested in seeing where this goes because I know I will not be happy. When I love a man I am willing to give him my all, but I am not going to do it with ANY man who can't seem to give those things back. I now know that there are men out there who want to do those things for their women. I just am not sure that is who you are. I don't feel right now that I am willing to give much to you because of those reasons. This is nothing against you for being who you are and I know that you have things you need too, but I just wanted to be honest and not give any false hope here.
What do you think?
Pearl
Thank you for your reply Starsky. Thanks for referring me to Pearharbrs thread.
1. I want to be coached!
2. I just read your post on boundaries. I feel I have stated mine. Then I was challenged here that I stated an ultimatum. I really want to stand behind my boundaries, see if he pursues, and NEVER waffle from that position.
My boundary: to be in an exclusive, committed, addressing issues with counselling/direction.
I would appreciate your direction/coaching...if you can spare the time.
Please tell me where I am arguing? I feel I have surrendered... and what I am doing over and over with BF... so that I can stop.
From my own personal archives, about the difference between "boundaries" and "ultimatums." Change the gender as needed:
The best way I can answer that is that if you make it about HER, they will come across as "demands" and being "controlling."
If you make them about YOU, and what YOU need, then they are "boundaries of personal integrity."
Example:
"I forbid you to see OM" = CONTROLLING
"I can't live in an open marriage" = BOUNDARY
"You need to check in with me every day, and give me your cellphone bill!" = CONTROLLING
"In order to feel safe in our reconciliation, considering your recent affair, I need to know that you're no longer talking or texting him by having the cellphone bill come to me for awhile" = BOUNDARY
"You can't talk to me that way!" = CONTROLLING
"I like ME too much to allow myself to be spoken to so disrespectfully. Please come back when you've calmed down, and we can talk further." = BOUNDARY
Make sense?
It's also HOW you say it. It should come across as something you HATE to have to even ASK for, and that you'll COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND if she doesn't feel she can do it, but hey -- this is what I need right now. Let me know."
Puppy
And this, which is even better, from an old poster named Jayne, who has just about the best, clearest concept I've ever seen here:
Jayne, on “boundaries”:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
Please tell me where I am arguing?
Yeah, sure. Let me pinpoint it for you. It's on your threads.
Hi Starsky...
I understand about the boundaries... they are set up only to protect me. To state what is acceptable. He can do whatever he wants, that is his choice. I am not stating this to control him, but me.
and frankly, I am not sure if my Xbf has it in him to pursue. I feel that he would respect my suggestions to leave me alone, for fear of hurting me more.... this makes me sad.
I understand how in the past, I have been argumentative...because I would try to explain my point...to death. However, in this case ... since new thread, Im not seeing it.
I "think" people are suggesting that I am arguing over the point of Pearlharbr's strategy.... What I am saying is that I am surprised that a poster was offered tactics and a strategy.... And the BEST part is to realize that she grew from that strategy to a place where she valued herself. My point may have sounded like I was interested solely in the strategy and to apply the tactics to GET HIM BACK...
Can you please tell me what I am doing over and over and over again with Xbf? ..that needs to change?
Can you please tell me what I am doing over and over and over again with Xbf? ..that needs to change?
No. Re-read your threads; you've been told over and over. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain it to you for the umpteenth time, or to highlight the specific text, I"m sorry.
I will leave you with this hint, however: Men like (and respect in others) ACTION. WORDS make us crazy. Set a goal to cut out 90% of your words with him, and focus on your actions, and when all else fails . . .
LEAVE. HIM. BE.
Starsky
ok Starsky... ACTION... I feel I started "action" by not accepting coffee yesterday.
One thing I worry about is that when/ if Xbf feels rejected he doesn't pursue... He goes the other way. I have seen this behaviour in him. When he thought I had a bf he backed off and left me alone... it did not make him come closer. He "says" and his actions "showed" that he came closer when we discussed that I did not have a bf over the past few months. He then became closer, more interested.
So, not sure that keeping him guessing will have the right affect. He needs security that I am working on myself and not seeking male attention. However, this is a double standard... He is not officially working on himself and is enjoying the attention of other women. THIS <<< is a boundary.
Gabby... ok... let me reword my boundary.
"I will not be with someone who is not prepared to BE with me in an exclusive, committed relationship & prepared to address problems by seeking counselling and/or self-help. I need him to look inward and be willing to do the work, not while entertaining OW's attention.
grrr... let me try again... because its not what I need him to do... but what I need for me. Period.
My boundary:
What I need from a LTR ~~~ I need someone who is prepared to work with me on problems and not run away. I need to KNOW that we are exclusive and committed to each other and our future. There must be a future. A forever future.
Basically, the relationship that I had before.. (with the new knowledge of relationship 101 and minus the attention of OW.
better?
grrr... is it script that while you begin to exert your self-value by the declared boundary, that the WAS/MLC'er expresses their irritability? This is the second day of his irritableness and I am dodging bullets, maintaining to be helpful and pleasant.
Is this normal?
Magic,
If you had educated yourself on MLC and read the postings of others, not only on the active forum, but also the archives, you would have read that the more you set boundaries and adhere to them, the more the MLCer will try different things to see if you are sincere in your boundaries. Also, the more YOU change the more irritable they will get. In some cases, they will be nasty for a while and then change up and be nice, just to get you to take the bait and pull you back into their drama. It is the dance. The only way to break this dance is to continue moving forward and do not take their bait. Make changes for you and only you. Do not make changes, toss out threats just to get them to react and/or change. They sense when you are toying w/them. Everything has to be real and true. No games!
So, he's being irritable, ignore him as much as possible. Don't make any comments about his mood. Little boy has to sulk for a good long while. When he sees you aren't biting, he'll eventually stop his little temper tantrums.
Yes, it is very normal.
Tx Job... I had read all about it but wanted reassurance. I suspected that to be the case. Wondered how long he will be angry and how I should be dealing with it.
Worked today, dodging his irritableness (is that even a word?). Had a good time with client appointment. When clients left, he needed to go into town, so I told him to go, that I would stay behind.... then... via text... coffee?
I texted back "I really need to use the washroom and to go to moms for paperwork, etc... tx, anyway" When he arrived, I didn't notice any coffee for himself & told him that I would be back in a half hour or 45. Will call him in bit, and left.
I am now at moms... going to get some work done here & then pop back in at the lot before heading out for the evening.
~~~~~~
I am concerned that rejecting his offers for coffee will pull his progress back. If he does not feel that he is in a reciprocating relationship/friendship, he will pull out/away. Especially if he feels that I am entertaining other men. Recently, when I assured him that I did not have bf's or dates he was much more interested to make slow pursuit. I know and he says he does not like to thikn of me with other men. I believe he has fears of loyalty/infidelity too. However, even tho I have reassured him... he was happy, baiting me...but not committing. If I was tainted from an affair...he would not. I think he would be done. HOnesty is paramount to him ... me too.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tonights agenda is a social gathering with the women from my womens support group. It should be fun, food, hottub, fire & drinks. I could really use the social time !!!
"is it script that while you begin to exert your self-value by the declared boundary, that the WAS/MLC'er expresses their irritability? This is the second day of his irritableness and I am dodging bullets"
How do you know you're the cause of him being irritated? Did he say you're making him irritated?
Magic,
It wouldn't hurt to accept his offer of coffee once in a while as long as you have no expectations and do not mind read the offer. It is an offer of just coffee, nothing more. I'm sure if it was a friend who offered you coffee, you would have accepted it once in a while...am I correct on this?
You do realize that there are no steadfast rules on what to do or not do. You have to try different things and if something isn't working, try something different. Also, what may work in on poster's situation, may not be the proper thing to do in your own. Again, there is no right or wrong way...you have to be willing to step outside the box and try different things.
Hi Bond... Hi Job,
Bond.. Hmm. I guess I don't know "officially" that his reason for irritability was me. However, he did clarify that I wasn't doing things the way he wanted... I instead was reading... and that bugged him. He said my reading wasn't beneficial to him. I was reading a relationship book. I stated that I was reading it because knowing that I own a car, does not make me a mechanic. I put the book down and started to do the things he was p!ssy about.
Job... thats the thing, I would have expectations and mind read... but, its a goal to try to view it that way. Maybe I will try to have a coffee and not sit there waiting for him to R talk. The thing is, is that I know he is trying to keep connections that hook me. So, maybe I will have a coffee and walk away. I dunno.. I am still vulnerable to be hooked.
I understand the concept to try different things.... I believed that I was on the right path when he was sharing coffee time, then dinner, then beer, etc. Suggesting that he wants more, etc.... except outside of a commitment/exclusive. Otherwise, I would still believe what I was doing...was working.
I like the pearlharbr story, it worked for her. Mosts importantly with self respect. It is an amazing story & I keep re-reading the good parts. The parts that made her xbf jealous & "wonder" are inspiring.. I just don't think its a good strategy for me... therefore I want to tweak her story to make it suit my sitch.... I just don't know what to change up without challenging his faith and belief in me. Regardless, I still need to do it.... regardless of the outcome.... I just want to make sure I am not sabotaging things. I am willing.., just need clear guidance.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Tonight was a lot of fun... lots of women gathering for food, chit chat, deep convo's, wine, connection, hot tub & fire...then more talk...lol I am sooooooo happy that I have these women who genuinely care about my well being and my progress toward my goal. One suggestion that keeps popping up is to introduce the suggestion of a mens weekend away.... I found some further info about dates/location. I would just LOVE to tell Xbf all about it. He seems somewhat interested in self-help, but cannot justify the time it takes. He is full of excuses (like I was). I am not sure how to approach, or if now is the right timing... since I am trying to be firm on my boundary and not pursue. During a time where NO mistakes, NO waffling.... is permitted.
I guess at this point it doesn't really matter, as the mens weekend for self discovery is scheduled this coming weekend (kinda soon). I am grateful that its within my area... very happy about that. Makes it possible, not such a big deal...for someday.
"Bond.. Hmm. I guess I don't know "officially" that his reason for irritability was me. However, he did clarify that I wasn't doing things the way he wanted... "
Then clarify and ask questions rather than just taking it.
"I instead was reading... and that bugged him. He said my reading wasn't beneficial to him."
He actually said those exact words to you? Regardless of that, it doesn't mean that you were the source of him being irritated. You could just as well have told him that you don't appreciate him talking to you that way and then left.
"The thing is, is that I know he is trying to keep connections that hook me. So, maybe I will have a coffee and walk away. I dunno.. I am still vulnerable to be hooked."
Still mindreading this action since Day 1.
"I like the pearlharbr story, it worked for her. Mosts importantly with self respect. It is an amazing story & I keep re-reading the good parts. The parts that made her xbf jealous & "wonder" are inspiring.."
You still don't get it. You have to understand the WHOLE thing rather than just the parts you agree with. That's why it worked for her because she was able to learn from the good AND the bad parts.
"However, he did clarify that I wasn't doing things the way he wanted... I instead was reading... and that bugged him. He said my reading wasn't beneficial to him. I was reading a relationship book. I stated that I was reading it because knowing that I own a car, does not make me a mechanic. I put the book down and started to do the things he was p!ssy about."
so you're at "work" reading a relationship book, then got snarky when he called you out on it, and what response did you expect?
from everything you've described about him and his work ethics and his attitude towards work, he acted exactly how i would have expected him to, and i dont even know the guy.
if my boss or business partner caught me goofing off reading a relationship book, while i wasnt doing what they asked/wanted me to do, i think they have the right to get upset.
and if i then made some snide remark about it, then absolutely they have right to be cranky, I would have deserved it and asked for it.
But you left out all those important details from your original post: the fact YOU CAUSED his irritability.
was your intention to get sympathy from us? or try to prove you're a martyr? or that he's some irrational person?
from my perspective you caused it by your choice of actions, you added to it by your response, and you acted irresponsibly by not doing your job and not expecting his exact response and then complaining to us about him.
Magic,
There will be times that he'll test you and see where your head is at and then there will be times when he's just being himself. For some unknown reason, you now perceive everything he does as baiting you. Asking you if you want a coffee or going out for a drink is not baiting you. It's just asking you out. Now, if he begins to get nosey about your dating, then that's another story. That's your business and if you choose not to tell him what you are doing, then don't...but you are under no obligation to live like a nun for the rest of your life.
If you aren't comfortable w/relationship talks, then tell him that you aren't going to discuss it and walk away or change the subject...but at some point relationship talks may have to happen. You do tend to pick and choose from the conversations what you want to acknowledge and hear. I might be interpreting your postings incorrectly on this, but that's how it comes across. The best thing to do is listen and replay the entire conversation, not just certain parts of it.
As for Pearl, when she worked on herself and came to realize that no matter what happens she would be okay, that's when things began to change for her. Dropping the rope, accepting the situation and becoming all you can be are the keys. Learning to respect yourself first and then looking at the relationship for what it was and is now is also part of it.
It didn't take long for the new and improved you that you carried away from your retreat to go by the wayside. Magic, you have to be determined to work on you and you alone. Dig deep for that self respect and if you respect yourself and set your boundaries, then others will learn to respect you for the intelligent person that you are.
As for your SO, keep your conversations to work and don't engage in relationship talks right now. Your focus has to be on the financials and on you and your daughter. If your SO truly wanted things to change, he would have been doing the work by now. I don't see any of that in your postings. He's all talk and nothing more.
Let's try to keep the focus on you and try to break the habit of blow by blow of the activities/interactions you have w/him. The sooner you let him go and think of him as just a co-worker, the better.
WOW.. thanks for all the replies!!
Bond:
"Bond.. Hmm. I guess I don't know "officially" that his reason for irritability was me. However, he did clarify that I wasn't doing things the way he wanted... "
Then clarify and ask questions rather than just taking it.
>>>>> He was irritable before I got there... Getting prepared for client appointments, rushing. I know when he is irritable.
"I instead was reading... and that bugged him. He said my reading wasn't beneficial to him."
He actually said those exact words to you? Regardless of that, it doesn't mean that you were the source of him being irritated. You could just as well have told him that you don't appreciate him talking to you that way and then left.
>>>>>> Yes, he said those exact words.
"The thing is, is that I know he is trying to keep connections that hook me. So, maybe I will have a coffee and walk away. I dunno.. I am still vulnerable to be hooked."
Still mindreading this action since Day 1.
>>>>> Not mindreading... He has used those exact words to me. He also says that he is possibly trying to cake eat too.
"I like the pearlharbr story, it worked for her. Mosts importantly with self respect. It is an amazing story & I keep re-reading the good parts. The parts that made her xbf jealous & "wonder" are inspiring.."
You still don't get it. You have to understand the WHOLE thing rather than just the parts you agree with. That's why it worked for her because she was able to learn from the good AND the bad parts.
>>>>>> Don't assume that I don't get it. Yes, I am learning.
____________________________________
Gabby:
You love to use the word "bait ". He's not baiting you. Your choosing to see it as bait and get hooked. It's been going on for so long, there's nobody to blame but you. You buy into it...... You give up your " self-value". The second he starts an R talk. It's not his fault, he is not baiting you. You chose to take what you want from these " talks".
>>>>>>> I love to use the word bait (as it was given to me by Bond/Tallula.... I KNOW it is NOT him that baits me...its ME!! Yes, I get hooked. I hook myself. However, I do know that he wants to remain "connected" for his own safety net...he says so!
And what bond said up there^^^^^. Your not taking what you should be taking from pearl harbors story. The parts where her ex was jealous or making him wonder are completely not the point. The point you should be getting is way past the part where you say she used " tactics" . Your should really be focusing on the part where she truly dropped the rope and respected herself and held her boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. I agree!!! I think I came to realize this part overnight!! (today I have a different view).
If her ex never came back, who he as a true possibility for her and for you, she at least would have changed for the better and had healthier relationships going forward.
Your posts still read of every detailed interaction with him, how HE is reacting, what HE is doing. Him him him.
Who cares.
>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY!!!! I need to focus more on me. Make my world about me & daughter. I NEED to take care of me... regardless of how it affects him. I see this TODAY!!!
________________________________
KenF:
so you're at "work" reading a relationship book, then got snarky when he called you out on it, and what response did you expect?
from everything you've described about him and his work ethics and his attitude towards work, he acted exactly how i would have expected him to, and i dont even know the guy.
if my boss or business partner caught me goofing off reading a relationship book, while i wasnt doing what they asked/wanted me to do, i think they have the right to get upset.
>>>>>>>>> this is par for the course in the car industry... Many employees sit around reading the newspaper. He was annoyed that I chose to read instead of sitting with him, the day before. I am his PARTNER, not employee. I do MY job at a home office. When I arrive at the LOT, I feel justified to read, chat on phone, pick my nose, OR putter around on our vehicles (like he does). He is NOT my boss.
and if i then made some snide remark about it, then absolutely they have right to be cranky, I would have deserved it and asked for it.
>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't make a snide remark...???
But you left out all those important details from your original post: the fact YOU CAUSED his irritability.
>>>>>>>>>>> His irritability comes from before I even got there.
was your intention to get sympathy from us? or try to prove you're a martyr? or that he's some irrational person?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Neither
from my perspective you caused it by your choice of actions, you added to it by your response, and you acted irresponsibly by not doing your job and not expecting his exact response and then complaining to us about him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not the case. I am his equal 50/50 partner. I do my job. However, I can see your point if you believed I wasn't doing my job and Im sure he feels this way at times. I will keep this in mind.
________________________________________
Job:
There will be times that he'll test you and see where your head is at and then there will be times when he's just being himself. For some unknown reason, you now perceive everything he does as baiting you. Asking you if you want a coffee or going out for a drink is not baiting you. It's just asking you out. Now, if he begins to get nosey about your dating, then that's another story. That's your business and if you choose not to tell him what you are doing, then don't...but you are under no obligation to live like a nun for the rest of your life.
>>>>>>>> Not sure if he is baiting with intent or not (not my point/or care). I have realized that I ALLOW it to affect me. I bait me. I have realized that I respond to it too. Yes, he questions if I am dating or not. Not sure which answer to give him on this. I am not dating.
If you aren't comfortable w/relationship talks, then tell him that you aren't going to discuss it and walk away or change the subject...but at some point relationship talks may have to happen. You do tend to pick and choose from the conversations what you want to acknowledge and hear. I might be interpreting your postings incorrectly on this, but that's how it comes across. The best thing to do is listen and replay the entire conversation, not just certain parts of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believed that by not having the R talks he would bring up, meant that I wasn't open for discussion & possibility of reconciliation. These talks were happening too much, it was very difficult to replay the entire convo. Too much & circular. He likes knowing that I haven't moved on. He says its what brought him back into reconsideration for a possible reconciliation. For now, for my sanity... I think I shouldn't listen to his "talk" anymore. It baits/hooks me. "it" does. It keeps me "there" and he knows it. It prevents me from taking care of myself. (just realized THIS overnight)
As for Pearl, when she worked on herself and came to realize that no matter what happens she would be okay, that's when things began to change for her. Dropping the rope, accepting the situation and becoming all you can be are the keys. Learning to respect yourself first and then looking at the relationship for what it was and is now is also part of it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. and I want to be doing this much for myself now too.
It didn't take long for the new and improved you that you carried away from your retreat to go by the wayside. Magic, you have to be determined to work on you and you alone. Dig deep for that self respect and if you respect yourself and set your boundaries, then others will learn to respect you for the intelligent person that you are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its not by the wayside completely... I think last night got me back on track... actually better on track as now I see the importance of taking care of my and my heart/head first.
As for your SO, keep your conversations to work and don't engage in relationship talks right now. Your focus has to be on the financials and on you and your daughter. If your SO truly wanted things to change, he would have been doing the work by now. I don't see any of that in your postings. He's all talk and nothing more.
Let's try to keep the focus on you and try to break the habit of blow by blow of the activities/interactions you have w/him. The sooner you let him go and think of him as just a co-worker, the better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>AGREE !!! I am strong when not around him. When I get with him, I lose my back bone. I need to take care of me, therefore I might avoid him for a little bit. To gain my balance. I still need to work with him, but will completely drop all interaction that does not pertain to business, taxes, and our financial agreement. Its been too confusing otherwise. I have allowed HIS confusion to suck me in. NO MORE! Not healthy for meeeeeeeeee !!
___________________________
Today, I have a ton of business, personal & DD taxes to review. I have not paid attention to the date. I need to focus on that, with a bit of me mixed in there. NOT HIM (anywhere).
I value myself because I am worth it!
"Not mindreading... He has used those exact words to me. He also says that he is possibly trying to cake eat too."
He actually said that he's trying to keep you on the hook? Those exact words?
">>>>>> Don't assume that I don't get it. Yes, I am learning."
I'm not assuming. I'm stating a fact. In fact, I'm not the only one who has pointed this out. If there is more than one person telling you this, have you ever thought that YOU could be the one in error?
">>>>>>> I love to use the word bait (as it was given to me by Bond/Tallula"
Again, don't misquote me in the wrong context. I may have said that a while ago, but your situation has changed but you remain in the same place. You think the same terms/rules that applied when you first started your sitch still apply now.
They don't.
Quite honestly, you're the only poster I know on this board that debates every point that people make to you.
HI Bond,
I am sorry you feel that I am trying to debate..... I feel the opposite. I actually am trying to understand and I don't understand where you feel there is a debate.....especially after my last long message. I know that before I was guilty of debating. I debate by nature (out of curiosity, not to disagree or to challenge, but to further understand).
As for the hook/bait comments. His words are "I keep trying to have coffee/beer/dinner, etc to keep connected, and possibly for reconciliation" and "I realize I might be trying to cake eat".
Yes, more than one person has told me... but, there also comes a time when the light switches on... you can believe its finally time! Watch my actions (however, I may slip...that doesn't mean I haven't listened or might "debate" again)... I will remain a work in progress.
I didn't use the word "bait" in wrong context. I used to think it was something else. I fully know how to use it now. I like the word because It resonates with me... I will continue to use it.... I am not in the same place. I am not sure what you are referring to here. I am not applying any of the same rules and not sure how that relates to the term "bait"?
I sure hope you don't feel that I am debating, just because I ask the question for further clarity. Clarification purposes ONLY.
Tx, MM
"I didn't use the word "bait" in wrong context. I used to think it was something else. I fully know how to use it now."
The fact is that you associated my name to your usage of it and in the context that I was using it at the time is now wrong. Don't use my name if you continue to insist to using it wrongly. In fact, I'm not the only one who said he wasn't baiting you.
You really do only want to hear what you want to hear. In fact, all the advice that gabby, job, starsky and others is the exact same as before and you keep asking the same questions. I really don't get how you don't see that. You don't need to apologize or constantly say that we are wrong because you have changed, etc. The thing is that you haven't. Seriously, do you really try to understand what people write to you? I mean the minute you get a reply, you automatically respond back in a few seconds. That's not enough time to digest what people are taking their time explaining to you. I comes off as being rude sometimes.
Sometimes you sound like a troll MM.
oh dear... I am answering because I am online for the next little bit.
I think there is some sort of miscommunication. Bond, I was crediting you for the word "bait". How I used it was my own fault. Not anyone elses.... I give you credit, because I like how it resonates for me. I am not associating my "wrongness of meaning" to you. Sorry, if it implies that.
Im not sure what you are speaking of...I have not said anyone was wrong (or at least I hope they dont feel that way)...I am not asking anyone any questions. I finally know MY OWN ANSWER ... to act on how I AM FEELING... to CARE about MY feeling here.... not to focus on how it makes him feel. I "see/feel/know" how "coffee time" makes ME feel. And, I should pay attention to that! I feel that I layed it all on line the other day & it wasn't taken seriously or appreciated. <<< This is a turn off. I want to be wtih someone who appreciates the hard efforts and the forecasted attempt to make it work.... since, he doesn't. Its his loss. (without attitude). I feel sorry that he cannot SEE what he has right infront of him. If he is prepared to really lose that for good...its HIS LOSS. I deserve better.
I will digest as you recommend...good idea.
>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't make a snide remark...???
>>>>>>>>>>> snide remark: "I stated that I was reading it because knowing that I own a car, does not make me a mechanic."
MM, you ask us why others have gotten different advice from you, or why they've gotten the results you havent.
and your lengthy response above is the reason.
you ask for help and then nit-pick over our comments to prove we're wrong or we dont understand, etc.
the problem is, we get it. we see it clearly.
instead of soul-searching and working on yourself, you choose to respond that we're wrong, and then spend your day obsessing about him and what he's doing and if he's irritable. you have proven time and time again you have no existance outside of him, you cannot post 2 comments in a row that isnt all about him.
i guarantee you that you will make no real progress until you finally grasp that none of this has anything to do with him.
the problem with your relationship is you.
yes... Ken, IT HAS BEEN!!
I have had an epiphany...overnight, I swear.
I have come to realize that if he cannot appreciate what he has staring RIGHT infront of him (prepared to do the work, etc), that its truly his loss. He doesnt take me seriously &/or appreciate the guesture to get it right with me. Prior to today, I was taking it personally. Now I get it....its HIM!
The work I need to do... is ME!!! I value myself more than to not be taken seriously or appreciated. Meanwhile, I need to care for me right now.
anyway, that wasn't a snide remark. It comes straight out of the book I am reading. It was not received by him as snide either. Sorry, that you saw it that way.
Gabby.... you were not there... it was NOT a snide remark... I guess being there in person would do it better justice. It was part of our conversation.
I cannot explain it.
If he felt it was snide, he was quite prepared and in the mood to battle it out.. He would not hold back. I do still know him better than anyone (HE SAID, again yesterday)
I am not going to make this thread about THAT comment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know what I am feeling today.
I understand taht you are all trying to help. I thank you all for it. Please see this as a new beginning. Have an open mind.
I finally feel worthy!
next thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newpost&Board=28