MLC and Covert Depression at 62?

Hello everyone,

Its been a very long time since I have posted here. About 6 years ago I went through a divorce with my exH who I suspected was going through an MLC. (although I now suspect that in his case with was also NPD etc).
This is now not why I am posting - I would very much appreciate some words and wisdom from you all.....I am really struggling and still, I suspect, in shock....

I have been in a relationship with a man now for nearly three years and have relocated with my D12 to live with him here in the UK. He is currently 62.
New Years Eve 2013 (less than a month ago ) he dropped the bomb with the following - by email whilst my D and I were in Australia visiting my dying grandfather:

- I am finding it increasingly hard to continue being positive and cheerful when I dont feel that way.
- I am depressed and it is because of you and our relationship
-I have been troubled, concerned and deeply pressured about us
- For my own peace of mind I have to end the relationship
- I want 2014 to be a year of rejuvenation, new beginnings and that means that doors must close
You are a good woman and you deserve to be with someone who can give you want you need and what I am unable to
- We are both very different people - it is o ones fault
- I need time to think so I do not want you to contact me except via email - I do not want any verbal or emotional pressure

This came COMPLETELY out of the blue although, on reflection, I think he has very very slowly going into a depression for the last 12-15 months. He has been more and more emotionally withdrawn, more detached, wanting to work away from home more and more (he is a freelance opera singer) and has been very irritable and cranky with me. Leading up to Xmas he was getting worse and also complaining of back ache and had two episodes or turns where he couldnt remember anything and he had to go and lie down.

When I got teh BD email we were in Oz and had to fly back to the UK in five days time. He had said that we could take as much time as we wanted to get our things but the message was clear that we needed to leave and that he would also be living in the house. I was so traumatised I couldnt so we came back to the UK (Jan 6) with no winter clothes and all of D's school gear in WAP's house. I did manage to go in and collect some things (he wasnt there) ON THE DAY WE GOT BACK - HE HAD REMOVED ALL VIABLE CONNECTIONS TO ME IN TEH BEDROOM and had changed to duvet cover etc.

He is rowing, popping optimum nutrition pills and putting pictures of his university days up on his bedroom wall. He is raw juicing and, as of a few days ago, I have found out that he has and is having an affair with one of his mature aged singing students who is married with four children. In fact when we were flying back, traumatised fro mAustralia he was away in a hotel with her for the weekend./

There is more to post but I wanted peoples opinion on this/ Is it MLC. I do not recognise my partner - he has completely turned into a cold and indifferent alien, even from texts that he was sending me right up to BD.

I have just finished moving all of our belongings from his house - we are in a new apartment with boxes all around us.....

Any support or feedback will be gratefully appreciated. I am happy to answer any questions and fill in as many gaps as possible. It has been a very hard 3 and a half weeks since BD.

Thanks you
I x

I'm sorry you've had to return, but it does sound like he's having a crisis and yes, they can have a crisis at 62. Are you aware of any health issues or changes in his life in the last 18 months?

From your posting, I gather you have moved out of the home? If so, I would contact him at some point and ask if you can come by to get the rest of your belongings when he's not home.

After removing your belongings, I would leave him alone and allow him to have plenty of space. Do not contact him unless it's an emergency. He has specifically stated what type of contact he wants w/you and I would adhere to it as much as possible.

Ensure that you are not liable for any bills that he may incur because you never know if he'll be one of the ones that has a major spending spree along the way.

Try to keep the focus on you and your daughter. Take care of yourself the best you can. Live your life as if he may not want to reconcile.

I'm am very sorry that you have had to return.

So sorry you find yourself back here I know you will be ok.....hugs to you and your daughter and take care of yourself

Hi job, thanks very much for your reply - I have actually been reading your thread on why MLCers run away in their crisis - its been so informative so thank you...

So - in answer to your questions...

Are you aware of any health issues or changes in his life in the last 18 months?
- I am not aware of any MAJOR health issues but he has been complaining of a bad back and shoulder and his knees have pretty much packed up because he played competition squash many years ago....changes in his life - he is a professional singer and although he had a lot of work last year he is trying to get more prestigious work which is harder. He has a beautiful voice but his age is STARTING to unfortunately go against in terms of auditions. etc. Its the first time, in October 203, where he has been offered a role, started the job and then the director sacked because he thought that he looked too old for the part. I noticed a significant turn downhill at that point.
- He has been starting to become obsessed with raw juicing, taking optimum vitamin medication and is looking into age etc. (I would have loved to do ALL of this with him but it looks as if he wants all of it WITHOUT me around, rather with OW in tow..)
- His father (nearly 89) tried to take an overdose late September 2013. WAP outwardly took it very calmly, almost coldly but I am sure that this could also be another contributing factor...

I have not lived in our home since December 20th 203 - this was the day that my D12 and I left for Australia. When we returned January 6th we stayed with a friend until we could find a place to live.
I have spent the last four days removing all of our belongings from his house and that now is done.
We have now no reason to contact each other. He asked me to return our keys - was extremely cold. He accused me of stealing his shampoo and conditioner from the bath????
I have given him everything he asked for re contact. I have gone EXTREMELY dark - almost NC except for emailing re arrangements for collection of our things. At first he was surprised that I didnt beg, plead, cry, become very emotional...he was expecting it. He emailed saying " Why havent you emailed - you have shown no remorse, no sadness, no understanding , no regret , nothing - how odd!"
We are now no contact and I am maintaing that - especially because OW is now a confirmed entity....
I would appreciate some further feedback and am happy to fill in the doors more in a little while re our history/

Many thanks
I

I found his comments quite interesting that he was expecting you to show remorse, no sadness, no understanding, no regret, etc. Sounds to me like that is projection because why would you display any of these emotions if you weren't at fault?

I would definitely go completely dark on him and leave him to his ow. Clearly he's running from mortality and is worried about becoming an old man and living out his days w/his body breaking down.

Oh my goodness...stealing his shampoo and conditioner from the bath? Now, that's too funny. Even if you took them, they can be replaced for a nominal fee. Next he'll texting you about bill payments for last month.

He's clearly not thinking clearly and most likely not w/the head on his shoulders.

I'm glad you removed your belongings and now you need to focus on you and your daughter. If he should text you again about something, I would sit on that text for a good while and if you feel it requires and answer, do so, but in a very nice manner.

I do hope that he'll get some professional help...but most of them don't for a very long time, if ever.

Hi job,
Thank you for this - I thought I would add more information (I have just posted this in newcomers so perhaps I should in future just stick to this thread)?
I would agree with everything you have said (particularly about the projection) and am now going COMPLETELY dark. He MUST be in MLC???
Perhaps you could get back to me with further thoughts re the information below - it might help to further clarify things...

Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate it....
I guess what I am trying to do, in the midst of going extremely dark and GAL for myself and my daughter, is to ascertain whether this really is MLC or something different like PD etc. From everything he has said I think its MLC myself. Admittedly it has happened quite late compared to some but as you say there is a lot of script there.I guess I want some feedback on whether any DB techniques would even be applicable here.
Thank you for your best wishes. D is very very shaken although she is the sort of personality that gets on with things, rolls up her sleeves and carries on etc. However this situation has, like myself, thrown her completely, it was unexpected and it has been somewhat of a severing on his part so she hasnt physically seen him or even spoken to him since December 20. That said he hasnt once asked about her. This in itself ids completely out of character. they were very closes and he was very caring and loving towards her in his own way (albeit also emotionally removed with everyone over the last 12-15 months...). She cries often and wants him to just come back and to give her hugs again and call her sweetheart, which he did all the time. It is a huge, unexplained loss for her....
OUr relationship, from my perspective, was well suited and we had a lot in common, particularly our music making. I am more open and emotionally mature/articulate than what he is so tis caused some problems. But from what I can see of our relationship he was certainly very happy to be in it and did everything he could to share his life with us. We lived in his home (the only other woman to do this was his wife and they divorced 10 years ago) and we were fully integrated into his family, seeing a lot of his two sons (29,27) - often twice a week for dinner where I would cook. We were fully visible and integrated into his life, family , work and friends. Because we had both been divorced before neither of us had any particular interest in remarriage to be honest. I never pushed for it and he didnt want it. My approach and hope was that I wanted to be happy with him and I valued him in our life. That was all that I wanted. So in that way I thought we were also compatible. Neither of us wanted any more children which was also another link.
Re the depression there are many reasons why I suspect that he is going through one, least of all because in the BD email on new Years Eve he said:
"I (his best friend) has spoken to me and he has said that you think that I ma depressed. I have thought about it and you are right. I am depressed. I am depressed because of you and this relationship. I have been very worried and have a building pressure about it. It has greatly concerned me and for my own peace of mind I have to end this relationship. I want 2014 to be a year of rejuvenation and new beginnings and that means that some doors must close. I simply cannot go on any longer".
I have been reading quite a lot about male covert depression and he fits the timeline of covert strain building up and emotional withdrawal. About September 2012 I noticed a change, but it was slight, somewhat of an emotional detachment but still well within relationship. it was only at a level that a partner could sense. However this started to get worse. In December 2012 he had a mini BD - we had a fight about a prospective tenant in his house (I mentioned that because of D in the house that we should perhaps ask for references at the least meet the person) - and he blew up, accused me of molly-coddling D and stormed out and drove off. He stayed away that night and the next morning he sent me an email saying it was over/final etc. Accused me of hating men. He was very very angry, far more than this recent BD. I was shocked and spoke to J (his best friend) who talked to him and suggested that he have space to calm down. In this mini BD email he also said that his friends and family and remarked that he was depressed even then. So I think that this has been building up for some time.
2013 was generally stable, his words were conveying that he truly wanted this relationship and he was adamant on this. However his detachment became worse. He was starting to stay away from home more and was accepting work that justified it, often without any discussion. He started to state that he felt pressured being at home, that he wanted to be in his own home and feel; relaxed....
I tried my very very best to understand although I truly didnt factor in the depression issue in any serious way. I took him at his word literally so that when he was projection, blaming me for his own deep seated unhappiness I took it personally and tried my best to adapt etc.INothing I did made any difference. He became more withdrawn, more irritable, more emotionally detached. Sex was almost non existent - when I spoke to him about it he said that he couldnt do it because he was emotionally detached. He was however, looking at porn quite regularly.I found this very difficult and tried to speak to him about it but he just told me it was none of my business.
also - re the depression he started to complain about aches/pains and was starting to panic about his age. In October 2013 his father, nearly 89, who himself has a history of adultery and depression and complete emotional detachment, trued to overdose....WAP seemed completely calm and cool about the whole thing from the outside but I suspect that it hit him very very hard. Around the same time he was contracted to sing at a major opera house but when he started the rehearsal schedule the director arrived and decided to sack him because he felt he was too old for the part. On the heels of that there were other auditions that he tried for in November 2013 that he didnt get. For the first time he was starting to panic and was talking about needing to travel more to audition, work on his audition techniques etc.

Timeline around BD - my D and I left for Oz on December 20m- my grandfather is dying at the moment and we went over to see him. WAP saw us off at the airport but was very very removed. However he was texting me at least once a day up to NYE and we spoke at some length on Christmas Day on Skype and he seemed normal, a bit tired but happy to speak to us. He spoke to my family as well. There was NO WARNING that BD was coming in the way it did. NYE all I got was an email. I had text him not knowing that he had sent the email and he text me back saying "did you get my email" no kisses which was UNPRECEDENTED so i knew something was wrong. I then checked my email and BAM>
The problem was that my D and I were booked to fly back 5 days later to the UK and, understandably, all of our life, including her entire school gear and our winter clothes, were in his house. I have no doubt that he was assuming that we would HAVE to come back and live there with him because he assumed we had no where to go. However I rang some close friends who live nearby and they insisted that D and I stay with them. So I needed to email him to arrange to collect our essential items from his house on the day that we arrived back as D was back at school the next day. Because I was so traumatised by BD, and by it being by email, not even a phone call and not face to face, I just couldnt write to him. So my mother transcribed what I wanted to say and wrote to him on my behalf, very polite, non emotional and just keeping to organising a schedule for collection of our immediate things.....
He replied to her with an onslaught of attack of my character which was completely unreasonable in that current situation. He started by saying " I am happy to facilitate the process of separation but I want you to know that I find LBS a woman who is very needy, needs a lot oh help, needs a lot of reassurance and support. However I never thought she would stoop so low as to need her mother to email me". He then went on to say "I am surprised that LBS has not responded to my email (NYE) - she is showing no sadness, no remorse, no regret, no understanding - nothing - how odd!". This email was only 1-2 days after BD.
I couldnt believe it - I just couldnt believe what he was saying about me (suspect good old projection here) - this was NOT the same man that I had known for the last few years.
We flew back and I went in, jet-lagged, into the property on January 6th and he had removed everything that was VISIBLY mine from our bedroom ie. all of my belongings were still in drawers and the wardrobe but all my books, pictures, and everything on my work desk down to the last staple had been put in our spare room. He had bought a new duvet cover and duvet and had a picture of a woman on his desk (NOT OW>>>??). So I went into further shock.
About a week later I decided to bite the bullet and email him to organise dates/times to collect our things. It was the first and only contact I have made with him since BD (I have not said or written one word about his decision or about the emotional impact on me and D - he was NOT expecting that at all). I have redirected my mail which also surprised him.
He held agreeing to the dates and times but finally did and I successfully moved everything last Friday.
Over the last week he has emailed he twice - firstly to accuse me of stealing four forks and knives, a very old and dicrepid stockpot and, wait for it, his shampoo and conditioner from the bath (I found these in the boxes and returned them the next day). He then coldly emailed me the last day of moving (last Friday) and stated that I was still owing him one knife but he was prepared to overlook it. And would I please leave our keys on his kitchen table.
Whilst I of course did leave them there when I left I was shocked that after nearly three years and living with this man that was all he could say, with no mention of anything to do with us and, importantly, D.
Re OW she is a singing student of his (mature age, about 50 ish) and lives about 3 and a half hours away. She is married with four children. They have known each other about a year and I know she was after him. I found conclusive proof that while we were flying back from Ox on January 4/5 instead of him being in hour hometown helping his son install a new kitchen in his house (this is what he has told everyone including his best friend) he was in a hotel with her...
Whilst I was packing our things I have found evidence of him popping nutrition supplements, reading how to get a flat ab in 5 days etc, using his rowing machine and looking to go on yoga retreats (he has never done yoga before...) He has also hung photos in his bedroom of when he was at university......

Thats about it for now but would really appreciate any more feedback that anyone could offer me..
thank you
I x

My goodness...he's on a world wind rush to get healthy fast. Well, it does sound like MLC because of the way he's acting, but we can't rule out the possibility of a walkaway. Yes, he may be 62, but he could still be in MLC if he didn't navigate his life's transitions earlier on in life.

You need to remember that depression plays a major role in MLC. It's what sets them up to seek new and wonderful things to make them happy. They tend to experiment during this time, either w/ow/op, drugs, alcohol, oorn, gambling, yes, even exercising to excess or become workaholics. They also will project their feelings and activities on to you because it's all your fault that they are unhappy. Don't drink a glass of Kool-Aid from the pitcher he's holding. It's all about him.

Also, they vilify the LBS during this time and you can't take what he says personally. I bet you tried to pretzel yourself into whatever you thought would make him happy. Stop! This will not work, because when you think you've fixed one issue he has w/you, he will come up w/another one. They do not know what they want and again, it's all about him, not you.

As for your D, he may not want anything to do w/her for quite a while. They do tend to distance themselves from their old friends, pets, family and co-workers. This is all par for the course for MLCers. Nothing personal, but they don't want to be reminded of what they once had in their old life. However, that may change as he travels through his crisis...but time will tell on that one.

They do become emotionally detached from us long before they drop the bomb. Generally, the process begins 18-24 months prior to the bomb drop and the changes aren't that noticeable until very close to the bomb drop.

What advice can we give you? Continue as you have been, don't contact him and when he does contact you, don't appear to be sitting by the phone or computer waiting for him to do so. Live your life as if he may never want to reconcile. He's gone and he may very well be gone for a long time. There's nothing you can do to stop his MLC/walkaway thoughts and he has to gone through the entire crisis in order to come out the other side a better, more mature man.

Leave him alone, give him plenty of space, so much space that he'll eventually choke on it. You didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him. Keep the focus on you and your D.

You might want to read this thread about depression and MLC.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121351&page=1

Thanks so much job - I really appreciate your feedback - any advice you may have at this point in time is wonderful.
The more I read your post the more I am CONVINCED that this is MLC. I know he is 62 but he HAS NOT dealt with with past - particularly childhood issues.
To fill in a few gasp - I have not heard this from WAP but his brother who has been a wonderful support for myself and D over the last month since BD...
WAP and his three siblings ( 2 brothers, one sister, WAP is the eldest) had a mother (she dies before I met WAP) who was by all accounts very emotionally cold. She told her children that she never wanted them in the first place and that she felt sabotaged into marriage. She viewed her role as a provider of food and someone who kept the house (although it was very messy a lot of the time)...
She was also extremely hysterical a lot of the time as her husband (WAPS father) was a serial adulterer and philanderer. He was absent most of the time from home having affairs. When the father finally left for good WAPS mother had a breakdown and was admitted to a mental hospital for a period of time. WAP has recounted to em having to literally prise his mother of his father and stop her trying to scratch his eyes out in a public park when he was 5.
I do not believe for one minute that he has deal with any of this.
WAPS father is still alive and ironically D and myself have always been quite close to him. But he is a very emotionally removed man. Towards the end of last year he tried to take an overdose so I think there are many demons still there for him at the age of nearly 89.
I also know he hasn't dealt with anything until now because he has repeatedly played out a version of his fathers cheating (not as much but it has happened). However to the best of my knowledge he has never done what he has done to me and D to anyone else - I think this is, by all accounts, the biggest crisis he has hit so far.
The fact that he wrote, as a first port of call in his BD email, that he was depressed speaks volumes I feel. Now that I have had time and distance to think about it it is more significant, perhaps, than what I first gave it credit for....
I also think that the issue of the projection (remorse, regret etc) was also mixed with him quietly expecting sympathy from me.
The yearning for youth and "rejuvenation" is really present and he seems completely focussed on that.
Re rejecting his "old" life I am not sure - he seems to be in contact from what I know with his close friends but I think the main focus is OW (I am trying not to be upset about her - trying to remind myself that she is a self medication)......
I am interested to know more about the issue of depression in all of this so I will have a read of your thread now...
Thank you job
I x

I have just been reading your thread on MLC and Depression Job - thanks so mucxh - it has been invaluable.
I saw so much of WAP in the list of depression symptoms.
Interestingly he was completely HOPELESS in teh last 6 months before BD in terms of keeping teh house clean and tidy. The space next to his side of teh bed was strewn with newspapers etc......the kitchen was always filthy.
While I was in his house packing my things these last few days the kitchen was really really filthy, rotting food, food stuck to the stove top etc.
However the bedroom has started to be tidied up big time, new curtains, new duvet cover etc. And photos of his university days on the walls.
He has bought new bathroom mats and a new bluetooth stereo for the bathroom....
And - in my last contact with him which was an email from him Friday morning - he wanted me to let him know via email or text when I had left from my final packing because he wanted to "get right back to tidy and clean the house"???
Any views on this?
I x

I also wanted to quickly post that I have bought a copy of Broken Heart on Hold by Linda Rook and it has been a literal godsend for me.
As a Catholic (who takes her religion quite privately) I was reminded today of God's work in this sort of situation.
I feel a bit calmer today. I am learning to let go and detach. I think I am starting to understand how standing does not mean that you don't detach.
As you rightly say Job, live as if they will not come back.
but, I guess, in a quiet part of your heart, you stand for them and for what you know to be true of the relationship you had with them, not what version they are conjuring up now...
Wow - this is a really tough tough process...
I x

Some of them do tend to let things go and live like they are in a frat house.

I had to laugh about the bedroom starting to look a bit cleaner, especially photos of his university days. Oh, my, longing for those days gone by.

If he's on a cleaning binge, he's wanting to start anew w/something different. Many of them do this. They don't want any reminders of what they once had and yes, they want "change". They think that if things change, especially where they are living, that things will be better. He will continue to change a lot of things and experiment in other areas, but the bottom line is this...yes, the new will be exciting, but the euphoria of the new item will grow old and he'll have to seek something else to give him that "euphoria high" for a bit.

It's typical script for some of them. I wouldn't worry about it too much...from the sound of it, the house needed to be cleaned up since he turned it into a pigsty for quite a while. Who knows, maybe he'll find the magic rock that will bring him back to earth. LOL!

Thank you Job - yes - I know that he wants change and he is going all out to get it.
I have never seen him like this in all the time I have known him - he has always been far more easy going.
I had a peaceful day yesterday but today I am feeling overwhelmed again....really feeling the loss and the pain of not seeing him or speaking to him (the person that I knew that is).
The thing that is giving me strength and hope in a sense is that this is MLC and Depression - and it seems that WAP is fitting all of the specific script indicators. I have been reading and reading about male depression and the timeline before BD fits perfectly. His words fit perfectly. His coldness, his detachment, his lack of empathy fits perfectly.
His focus on deleting his "old" life ie myself and my D fits perfectly. I doubt whether he is deleting other people but then again he has openly blamed me for being the cause of him being depressed and having to wend the relationship.
I am trying to repeat to myself that there was nothing i could have done.
You are right Job - I was bending myself into different shapes to try and do ANYTHING to make him happy but NOTHING was working. Nothing.
I am also suspecting that affair with OW started before Xmas - may have been happening for some time. Now I feel really nauseous. I know that she is (or was ) unhappily married with 4 kids - around 8-10 years older than me and one of his singing students/ I was reading Conway's description of the affair and she seems to fit the bill - her own emotional issues and WAP coming in alike a knight in shining armour.
I want to have the strength and trust to hand this over to God and trust the process. I want to believe that what we had was truth and not a lie before he went into covert depression.
Would appreciate some advice today - am a bit wobbly

I x

You need to trust in God and allow him to do his work. There's nothing you can do for him but to pray that he comes through his crisis a better, more settled man. There is absolutely nothing you can do to speed up the process and you do not want to try to "snap" him out of it because he'll only go back into crisis at a later time and it will be far worse than this time around.

You will need to find a way to let things be and get on w/your life. Your daughter needs you now more than ever. Pick up that old to do list that you've put on the back burner and begin working on some of those items. Maybe you have some hobbies or projects that you've put aside and now would be a great time to pick them up. Are there hobbies, projects or even new classes that you would like to do? What about volunteer work?

You've been on this rodeo circuit before, so you know what you need to do...focus on you and your daughter, keep busy and let nature take its course w/him. The less you contact him, the better for he needs keep his focus on his needs/wants right now in order to move along the path.

Thank you Job, I know that I need to lean on God but I am struggling. I need to trust more in the process don't I....
I know that all that you say is wise and true and my instinct tells me exactly the same thing ....I am surprisingly not in any way tempted to contact him. However I miss him, miss his voice and his presence (in some respects)....
I think it has made it all the more confusing re OW as I am only just starting to compute this - as I was moving my things form his house last week I didn't allow myself time to fully take OW into account. Now it is hitting me.
I realise that there so nothing I can do. I do find comfort in reading and educating myself re the circumstances, particularly reading about depression (covert etc) so if you have any other advice, links to threads aside from the one that you have posted me I would be very grateful/ I really want to try and empower myself with the knowledge of what is happening, fully, so that I am not overwhelmed by it all.
I wish I wasn't struggling so - but I guess this is the time when I need to lean on God the most...
Thank you
x

You know, Innis -
One thing you need to take into account. EVEN IF he came running back tomorrow, said it was all a big mistake, etc etc - is this a man you can trust around your 12 year old daughter?

I know you said their relationship was very good up until this point, and I'm not trying to accuse him of anything right now. But imagine, if you will, moving back in with him, your daughter going through puberty - is a man who has demonstrated the ability to develop this level of erratic behavior, one who should be trusted around a teenage stepdaughter?

If it were up to me, I'd say, thank god you only had 3 years into it, pick yourself up and move on (and maybe don't move in with another man until your daughter is grown). But if you do stick around and eventually take him back - I still wouldn't live with him for a few years. Let him prove himself.

Thank you so much for your support.
We all know how much each others support means at times like this....
I am reminded today of two facts -
Firstly my D and I were in Australia visiting my near 90 year old grandfather who is dying - he is getting weaker and weaker by the minute....
he was extremely ill and in a huge amount of pain and suffering when were were in Oz over Xmas.
I told WAP that by text and I received no acknowledgment of my grandfather at all.
The last day D and I saw him was a day after BD and I was completely traumatised.
I am struggling with knowing that that is the last I will see of him.....
I am struggling to think that WAP, who has STAYED with my grandparents a few years ago and was generous and kind to them - did not even acknowledge this was going on.
In fact he said he told me by email (BD) in Oz "so that D and I would have the support of my family"
What - for 5 days before we had to fly home? With my family already in upset re my grandfather?
This is hurting me today.
WAP and I (I am a pianist) had three concerts booked (one late January - two this month) and he asked me in the BD email whether I thought we should proceed with them (that it would be professional etc).
I cannot BELIEVE he would think that it is right to rehearse with me, on a daily basis, after dropping the bomb and having an affair with OW.
Is this all part of the MLC'ers delusion and crazy thinking.
I just DONT GET IT...
I miss my grandfather - sorry everyone
x

Your focus now needs to be on how your grandfather is doing and be there as a family member for his time is fading fast.

I agree w/KML that it's a good thing that your daughter isn't living there right now because these crisis people can do some really nutty stuff and you don't want your daughter exposed to all that emotional garbage, as well as anything else he may have sitting around the home. It just isn't healthy for the children to be exposed to all of that stress and tension if it's not necessary. Just my two cents.

Also, even if he came running back, begging you to come back, I wouldn't do it right a way. He most definitely would have to do the hard work of seeking counseling, show you that he's the man of your dreams and yes, win you back. Actions speak louder than words.

As for empathy, his empathy chip is broken. He's not going to feel much of anything right now about your family or your grandfather. He is in the self absorbed, selfish world of "me". It's all about him and what makes him feel good and happy right now. So, please keep your expectations at zero because he's out to lunch.

As for the concerts, that's up to you as to whether you want to proceed and perform w/him. I think I would find it rather awkward to perform w/him, knowing what he's just done.

Yes, it is all part of the MLCer's delusion and crazy thinking. You won't get it because your partner is not thinking rationally right now. You can't rationalize w/an irrational person.

I'm very sorry about your grandfather and that's why it is very important to focus on him, your daughter and yourself. As for the "nutty buddy", leave him in the pot to boil and stew in his own MLC juices. There is no room for you in that pot.

thank you job - I have read and re-read your post. i brings such comfort.
I had a bad night last night - I was overwhelmed with my sadness. Your comment about handing it over to God really rang true and I need to do it.....
What I was reading alst night were some threads about going dark whioch i found very interesting.
I think it was particularly relevant for me in that, in teh past and certainpy during the 12-15 months to BD - I was always trying toappease and cry, pleas etc when things were a bit weird (his emotional detachment etc). I know taht eh was expecting em to do the same this time.
I wasnt deliverately dark from BD - it just happened that way. i just couldnt contact him - my body and mind were saying NO.
Eventually i did email him but it was purely business like - arrangements for teh collection of our things.
I have even surprised myself that I havent ONCE brought up anything to do with his decision and subsequent behaviour at BD.
It is unlike me so therefore I am automatically doing a 180.
The thing is that unlike some situations where the LBS has pleaded, begged etc AND THEN gone dark, I went dark from the word go.
He had an initial semi-panic in that he couldnt understand why I was in contact with him (showing no sadness,understanding etc) - that was in the first week after BD.
However since then - NOTHING.
He has not made any movement in response to me going dark except comments in relation to my moving our things out and the redirection of our mail.
So - my question is - in many cases going dark illicits SOME sort of reaction from WAS/P but in my case there is DEAD silence.
I know you have said the more I leave him alone the better as this action will enable him to keep travelling through the tunnel without any interference.
Do I just trust that, in time, he will make SOME contact? If there is no contact at all from him, despite me going dark, do I just leave it....
My instinct is to carry on with what I am doing..
Last email from him (brief, perfunctory, cold) was last Friday.
I would really appreciate some guidance on this one. Maybe I went dark TOO soon if that is possible?
I x

My apologies for my typing/mis-spelling - I am writing quite fast and the edit button doesnt seem to work!!!!

The other issue I wanted to address is the issue of D and thank you all for your comments about her.
I agree that this is not the place for her to be (within his sphere) at the moment.
If I trust in God I know that he has guided us out of his house so that we are in some way protected from the craziness that is ensuing.
The one thing that has troubled me with WAP has been the emergence of porn. He has done this privately (covertly) but i have caught him twice over the last 15 months. He has been very angry with me and told me that it is none of my business.- that it has nothing to do with me.I know that some people have mentioned this aspect in relation to the DEPRESSION that goes with MLC and also may be connected to the affair/OW.
Do any of you have any further insight into the role of porn/depression/affairs/MLC?
Thank you
I x

Innishannon,

My XH also started using porn on his computer in the months leading up to BD.

Totally out of character for him. And not even 'standard' porn.

I was horrified to find he'd been searching, amongst other things, for 'schoolgirl' stuff. We had a 16 yo daughter at the time - and he left all the sites on his search history tab even though our 2 kids used his computer every night to play and do their homework.

His mlc was triggered by family deaths (highlighting his mortality) and the fact that our daughter was starting to date boys. He was crazy jealous.
He was relatively young when she was born and by the age of 41, was desperate to re-live his own adolescence and the early adult years he believed he'd missed out on as a young father.

It's all so ghastly. We are truly better off out of it, and so are our children.

Your posts mirror exactly the behaviour I have experienced from my XH. I'm frankly amazed at the similarity that these guys display. For example, like your H, mine never asked about my close-to-death father even when i took the hospital call in front of him and even though he had been my father's best friend and proxy son.

It gives me some comfort to keep hearing that mlc is so formulaic. Reminds me over and again that this is not about me, and there's nothing i can do to change him.

innishannon,
It's best to go dark for now and allow him time to reflect on himself and his self medications. Yes, porn is also one of the ways to self medicate. Depression can bring about all sorts of self medication, unfortunately we never know which type of "drug of choice" they will use.

Again, my advice is to leave him alone. I know you have very strong feelings for him, but you've got to let him go physically, mentally and emotionally. He needs this time to find himself. As you are aware, there are no guarantees one way or the other that he will want to reconcile w/you at a later date, so it's best to live your life as if he may not return.

I am going to suggest that you take some time and do some research on the net about depression. Also Jed Diamond has written some wonderful books as well. I'll locate the thread that I created many years ago w/some helpful books on it and post the link here for you to review.

Here's the thread w/some of the best books that I read, as well as others who had recommendations back in the day.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...e=68#Post120684

Thank you everyone.
I went to work today and spoke with my boss - he is a wonderful man and has agreed that I can work from home to fulfil all of my work responsibilities for the next week or so. We drafted a plan of action and he was happy with that.
He could see that i needed some more space. I do believe that God was stepping in. So I am grateful.
MLW - thanks for your feedback - I am so sorry to hear that you have gone through similar upset - similar aspects of the script. I know how hard it is. I too am amazed ay how many similarities there are between all of us in terms of what we experience etc.
Job - thanks for the link and for the reminder. I DO NEED TO DETACH.
You are right, I have strong feelings and I am a very feeling person to begin with. I know that there are no guarantees.
It is hard to acknowledge that but I have ti accept it with grace and understanding of the bigger picture.
I drove home from work today and sobbed. I asked God for assistance, for help in finding my own strength, my own calm and peace. To let WAP walk his own path without disruption and trusting in the process.
I wish i was stronger but I have to remember it is less than 5 weeks since BD.
I will read all of the suggestions re Depression, Job. I do think the more educated I am in this area the more calm I will find. The fact that WAP has himself admitted to being depressed is a good start.
I will post more later - re thoughts etc. Thank you for your support everyone.
Ix

Re the porn issue my WAP was , perhaps more heartbreakingly, not looking at open internet porn so much but one particular photo (intimate) of a woman who he said he was seeing before I ever met him. He apparently took the actual photo???
So the difficulty in all of this is not that the porn is of people who you will never meet, never know. Faceless, nameless etc.
Even though that is hard I could find some understanding.
But the fact that he knew this woman???
I found that SO hard.
He didnt seem to understand that at the time. Mind you this was about 1 month before BD.

Hi everyone,

Job - have been reading as much as I can from the thread you posted to me re depression - this has been so helpful. thank you.
I now realise that this is EXACTLY what has been happening re WAP.
I have no doubts whatsoever.
He admitted himself that he was depressed in BD. I thought it was just a line he was using but the more i read the more I think that was the one bit of clarity he was able to give to me....
However, from what little I know, since BD he seems to be a lot happier - self medicating with OW, rejuvenation etc...
Surely depression doesn't go so quickly. Is this running still part of depression?
He blamed me fro the depression he has/had so that in itself is surely telling?
just trying to work through this slowly but surely
Any advice would be welcome.....post BD are they still going through the depression - even though they are acting relieved etc?
I x

The depression will be present for a very long time. They self medicate to make themselves feel better and yes, they appear to be relieved, but again, the depression is there throughout the crisis. It's the main ingredient of the crisis. Depression takes on all shapes and no two people suffering it will behave the same way. A man's depression is very different from a woman's.

I'm posting a link to an older thread of mine as to my thoughts on why they run. I hope that you'll find some answers there. The people who posted on this thread had some very thoughtful postings that may offer up some info that may help you. If you take a moment and look on the forum for Smurf's thread w/some of the resources, you'll find other wonderful and informational threads by others as well as some of mine.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=67406&page=1

Thank you Job - will have a look at this now - I have been reading about male depression this morning and it is so insightful - educating ourselves this way offers so much comfort and sense to what seems nonsensical.
I have ordered a few books via Amazon so I look forward to reading those too.
informing myself about the nature of male depression explains so much of what we have gone through in the last 12-15 months - I can now understand his withdrawal, detachment, his irritation, his blaming/projection....even BD to a certain extent (trying to accept OW too but it is harder at the moment).Before I just couldn't understand what was happening -
I suspect that once I felly accept and understand this root cause of MLC, combined with the specifics of my WAP and his past - I will find the freedom to detach....
Thank you so much for your support - it means so much at this time
I x

Have been reading a lot about depression as suggested and it has been really informative....I have found a few quotes - interested to know more about peoples experience with this sort of thing.......

"The longing to leave one�s intimate partner brings out something that isn�t much discussed in descriptions of depression. It is the active face of the illness. We often focus on the passive symptoms, the inactivity, the isolation, sense of worthlessness, disruption of focused thought, lack of will to do anything. But paradoxically the inner loss and need can drive depressed people to frenzied action to fill the great emptiness in the center of their lives. They may long to replace that inadequate self with an imagined new one that makes up for every loss. "

And this one......

The reason I post that here is to perhaps point to how depression, as what is believed the underlying condition throughout MLC, may be a factor in the MLCer's drive to fill the void they feel within themselves. Even desperately so, at an aggressive pace. Can anyone say "OP" and "replay"?

Yes, I can say replay and OP...they long to find something that will excite them and make them feel alive. Many of mlcers will state that they feel smothered or will die if they continue to live under the same roof w/us. It's actually the depression talking.

.......notice how they "find" that passion to pursue what they think they want. What they don't seem to realize (the depression coaxing them) is that the passion is coming from within them. They think the passion is coming after the fact, as a result of this new change, new love, new apartment / job / car.

That chemical released in the brain is doing the same thing for them as the alcohol or other drug is doing. Allowing them to avoid the depression. The booze gives them passion and fills the void, or the OP does...

Depression seeks to avoid by reaching out for external stimuli.

The whole "I can't go back there" is them thinking that a metaphor is reality. "There" being their fear of the void of depression. But they relate it to being literally us, or the M, or our old house, or whatever... "There" changes as they loose their current passion for something / someone and the run to the next.

And the depression blocks their ability to see what was, before depression struck. It's a moment in time which is all the history they can focus on. And all their history begins to be re-woven around that specific moment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would be very interested in hearing peoples thoughts about these.........I know in my heart, soul and mind that this is my WAP. The more I think about the way he was detaching - the spacy looks he was giving me - the disconnect - the irritability - the lies and deceit - the OW playing into his hands (singing student, adoring etc) - he even said himself that he has felt a "worry" and "pressure" about all of this - that the relationship caused him "great concern"...that he was "depressed but I ma the reason for it..." etc

Another interesting bit is that I spoke to a good friend last night who knows OW...she said that she has, to the best of her knowledge , always been quite a decent person. She has been unhappily married for some years - 4 children but all pretty much grown up - my friend suspects that WAP has fed her (OW) BS about the actual status of my relationship with him..........certainly not divulged how he dropped the bomb.
OW knew of myself and D - she knew that we all lived together - so she cant be given TOO much sympathy here....
My friend also agreed that there may be more than one OW in WAPs case - and that, in her own words, he is "heading for a fall - he will hit the wall - sooner rather than later....."
I x

I am sorry about this everyone - I was doing so very very well until about 30 mins ago...
I very rarely go on Facebook but I went on this morning - I havent been on for weeks.
WAP has removed me from his relationship status (I know this from checking mine......it was adjusted because he had obviously removed it)
I also suspect that he has blocked me from seeing posts.....
I rarely worry about virtual things like this but it has thrown me in to UPSET about OW (I have also found out that she practises yoga hence his new yoga passion).
It has also thrown me back into upset re whether he is really depressed - I assume he is happy and sorted when I am in upset.....
I have been trying SO HARTD to detach and it was working to some extent - now I feel like a complete idiot - I wish i was stronger - I really do......
I understand the importance of letting go and acting as if he is never coming back - I am trying to do this. I understand that this is his journey etc.
I am crying - I dont want to be -

x

Why are you apologizing? It's a natural emotion and yes, it upset you this morning. Have a good cry and then pick yourself up, dust yourself off and continue focusing on you and your daughter.

What he's done is very normal for the MLCer because he's cutting ties w/everything from his past. He's gone into the world of crisis and you need to understand that he's going to continue doing things that are out of character for him. It's about him, not you. I know it's difficult, but try not to take his actions/behaviors too personally.

Sure he's got an interest in yoga right now and that's because the ow is in to it. You'll be amazed at how the mlcer will pretzel himself into being whatever the ow wants him to be. He's trying to impress her and eventually yoga will go by the wayside and he'll try something else. Right now, you are too close to the situation, but later on, you'll come back and read about his antics and you just might have a chuckle over his yoga stint.

For now, think of him as a child learning and experimenting w/new things. He's going to try many different avenues for change and yoga is the mildest one that I've read about yet.

It's okay...it takes time to detach. Let what you've read today go and focus on you and your daughter.

Thank you Job
I am crying - this is crazy that I am so affected.
I think what has happened is that I was doing really well and assuming that I was detaching at a fair rate.
Obviously not

Although it has been only 5 weeks since BD I had hoped I would be more robust.
But i guess have had a lot to cope with..
I am now worried that the relationship with OW is public and I do not/will not know. We have a large amount of mutual friends and I feel so embarrassed........
I dont know why I do - as I did not BD - he is the running partner here.
Thank you for reminding me that this is normal MLC behaviour - cutting ties with everything that reminds him of me and D.
I will try not to take this personally and breathe.
I want to be here for myself and mu D...I dont want to be caught in this endless circle of thinking about what/where he is. It is no good for me or D....
I think the default upset from the information earlier is that I have gone out of the zone of thinking that he is in a depression.
Do MLCers behave as if they are happy, a much improved life etc etc???
Thank you for your support
x

They wear different masks throughout the crisis. Yes, they can appear to be happy as clams and when they are alone the masks slip and they can sit around moping, staring into space, etc. They also do not sleep very well because their minds are running a mile a minute. Wearing masks tends to get stressful because, as they move along, it gets harder and harder to be someone they are not. All the world is a stage to them until one day, the normal routine sets in and life swallows them up once again.

Why would you feel embarrassed around your mutual friends. Your friends will figure it out in time and you don't need to tell them everything that is going on.

Breathe and remember...you can't do anything about him and his behaviors...but you can take care of you and your daughter.

Hold your head up, back straight and find something to smile about each and every day. You have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

Innis, sweetie, it's only been 5 weeks. Your expectations for yourself are way too high. Slow down. Way down.

If your H had died five weeks ago, no one would expect you to be detached and over it by now. It's silly, isn't it? When you think of it like that?

This part is just gonna stink. There's no way around it. It's gonna hurt, a lot. Don't push it down. Accept it for what it is. Feel the emotions that come up bravely.

Your H is exercising his right to avoid. He is avoiding his feelings. He is acting with cowardice. You, however, have a choice to bravely face the situation.

Accept things as they are today, sh!tty. Strangely, once you accept the truth for today, you open yourself up to heal and feel better. And, IT GETS BETTER!!! Really!!

"Robust" is not a word I would use at this stage of the game.

There may be some truth in your H having "fun" right now. It doesn't mean he is gone forever, he doesn't love you down deep, doesn't mean all those years you spent together weren't real... it means he is a broken man who is finding his relief in some unhealthy, selfish ways right now.

Face the reality of who he is today. Cry it out.

But, while you are grieving and feeling the REALITY of this situation, he is avoiding his feelings. This will bite him in the A$$. Maybe not today, but it will bite him.

Innis,

This is what I wish someone had told me two years ago. They probably did, but I wasn't in a place to hear it.

There's gold at the end of this journey for EVERYONE--IF you work for it.

There truly is a treasure waiting for you, but YOU HAVE to FEEL what comes up.

I'm not divorced. My H is living with the OW in an apartment about an hour from our home. In print, it looks lousy...

But, you know what? I like myself and my life more than I EVER HAVE. I wouldn't go back for a million dollars. Really.

I've done the work and I still have my down days, but, even on the down days, I'm glad this happened. My H's problems were the thing I needed to get myself moving towards a much better, happier me.

Thank you so much - it is such a comfort to hear a voice of reason and objectivity.
Lois -as you rightly say - it has only been 5 weeks.
In that time I have had to deal with so much - it has been really tough on a practical level - moving all of our things from his house, finding an apartment - trying to keep my daughter going, my job going, our health covered...
I have shelved thinking about OW too much because I havent been able to take it on.
I think today has thrown me into reality about her and him ...the betrayal is hitting hard. Very hard....
Job - you have made mention of the way MLC ers delete the old life. He has CERTAINLY done that with myself and D - although he seems to be active and in contact with friends etc. It just seems to be is that he has deleted.
In keeping with that he was quick to start cleaning his house, almost before i could get everything out.....He wanted this new life to start as quickly as possible....
WAP is avoiding so much. There has been no real closure on this (except in practical terms). Just BD, a few emails to organise collection of our things and thats it. He has made no ATTEMPT to address any feeling about this - at least to anyone I know....
As I said I dont hold great store in social media - I think it can be dangerous - but his removal of me and blocking , whilst no surprise (I am sure it happens all the time) sort of cements in my head that he has moved on. That he is fine with his new life - just the way he wants it....(or so it seems)
I know I am rambling - I am sorry - I am just trying to feel more settled and detached -
My belief that this is depression - in mu upset - is less today. I have been so sure but today I feel less so - I feel more as if OW and he are sailing off into a proverbial sunset of perfectly matched happiness (and yoga).
I guess all of us, in the early stages after BD - feel this way if there is another person involved.
The MLCers can make it seem as if they have found the solution to their happiness through this person and this new life - and they make it seems so believable dont they - they make it seem as if their decision to run and to delete the LBS is the BEST thing they could have done for them....
Love me deep down - I just dont see ANYTHING that would even come close to hinting at that....
Thanks for listening
x

Lois - can I ask - based on what you have just posted - are you standing for your marriage ?
x

Is your H living with the OW who was there around BD - or a different one perhaps? Are you seeing signs of your H coming through the tunnel and reconnecting?
x

Quote:

I know I am rambling - I am sorry - I am just trying to feel more settled and detached -

Don't apologize!! Stop it! Take a look at my ramblings some day when you feel better. This board is here to sort through the junk and find the treasure. You will get there.

Think about what you have accomplished in a mere 5 weeks. Celebrate this! You are strong. You are proving it.

Strong women/men come out of these boards. You are one of us now. And, we will be there, come thick or thin.

Masked depression is called masked because they hide the depression--even from themselves. Getting drunk on love, drugs, booze, spending, gambling, quick life changes, etc... it gives you a quick fix--doesn't it? It's a buzz.

Once the buzz wears off--and it ALWAYS DOES--they are left with themselves and, sadly, few other true friends. Remember that.

You will be OK if you calmly, bravely, patiently navigate this journey. The treasure is waiting. It's in YOU, not your H.

Sadly, he, on the other hand, will still be left with all the crap he is avoiding right now--and then some.

Everyone feels off balance in the first months and even year after the BD. It's normal because you have no indication that they are doing to tell you that it's over, they don't love you like they use to etc. However, his journey began 18-24 months prior to BD and he had a head start on shutting down his feelings/emotions for you and the relationship. He's moved ahead w/his feelings/emotions while you are just now floundering. But, at some point, he may feel the way you are now and you will have moved forward w/your life. But, that will be many months from now, even possibly a few years.

As for the ow, please try not to give her any head space because she is taking up space and not paying rent. She's nothing more than a good time, Band-Aid and as I've mentioned to others a FXXk buddy. The so called love their are experiencing is nothing more than lust and having a good time. It is not what we consider a deep, emotional love. Think of it as a young kid having a crush on a little girl in the class. It's not real love.

There is no rhyme or reason for some of their comments or actions because the crisis is based on depression and yes, it's an emotional journey for them. They go back to the time where they were stunted emotionally and have to face their demons, accept what they can or can't change and hopefully grow up and become mature adults. Some make it and others don't. Those that don't, remain lost.

Keep the focus on you and your daughter. Any word on your grandfather?

Thank you Lois.........
How do we cope with OW (the issue of).
WAPs OW is married (unless she has recently left her H) with 4 children. She is an amateur singer and is into yoga....
I am trying to be calm - trying so hard but today - probably because of the FB episode - I am in upset re OW> Other days I have been stronger.
I think I have, up till now, assumed that it is an MLC fling/affair down etc. But for some reason I am upset that it could mean a lot more.
Now I am rambling again....x

Sorry job - just reading your post now....

Am I standing?

This is a hard one to answer today. Up until a month ago, I was standing for my marriage. Today, I'm turning it over to God. I want my H to find himself and face his demons--more for the sake of my kids than for me.

I've changed. I expect more today than I did 2 years ago when he left.

He left 2 years ago, almost exactly. I discovered an EA and threw him out. He never returned. He wanted to be kicked out. He lived with the OW on and off throughout the last two years and invited her to move into his apartment last summer. He kept it a secret and I pushed him for the truth.

I see my marriage differently than I did. I see it more honestly. There were beautiful moments. There was also a lot of immaturity than I wouldn't choose to tolerate anymore.

I sorta have a date on Saturday and I'm giving the outcome of all this to God.

My husband made life a whole lot more difficult than it needs to be. Today, my mantra is "Take Joy." If he isn't willing to do the work, then I'm going to continue moving on with my life.

Thanks job,

Yes - I didnt think of it this way - he has had time to disconnect his feelings for me. I just didnt read it in that way. If anything I put it down to the depression mounting. Maybe they are interconnected???
If he has time to disconnect from feelings/emotions about me/us does that mean that they are still there buried or completely gone. I wonder?
Trying to keep focus on us - no word on my grandfather I am afraid. His breathing is getting worse,,,,,,,,,is struggling and in a lot of pain. So there is slow and steady deterioration.
Thank you for asking Job - I appreciate it.
Re OW - thank you for reminding me on what the underlying truth is. It is easy to be seduced by the aura that they send out. WAP is ac8ing relieved, free and "rejuvenated" - just like he said he wanted to be.....his "new beginning"
I think I have to root myself in my knowledge of my worth and my D's worth, of our bond, of the fact that I have loved fully and openly (even though I am suffering now).
I have to remind myself that unlike WAP I couldnt imagine deferring to OM..
Then again, I am not in MLC
x

Quote:

How do we cope with OW (the issue of).

We retrain our mind. We have the power to control what we think about and what we put our energy into. When your thoughts drift to them, put a stop to it and think of something positive in your life. Practice daily. It gets easier.

READ everything suggested on the boards and the divorcebusting archives--learn about what the OW really represents. She is nothing. She may think she has the power and you may give her the power with your obsessing--in reality, she is nothing. She is sad and broken.

It takes time and it still hurts on the way...but, I promise, you will get to a point where you will see the truth of this relationship with her and you will see how sad and lowly it is. It's not what you had together. He isn't capable of that right now. He needs quick and easy and needy and Yuck.

He is a broken man. You are stronger than he is right now. He needs weak. You're more woman than he can handle right now.

Oh, and Innis.

There have been dark days where I have posted every little thing I accomplished in the day. I would commit to doing the dishes and come back and post.

I washed the dishes.

I wound commit to the next task--just to keep moving.

Don't ever feel badly about posting. You can use these boards as your own personal whatever. Whatever helps you get through.

Wow Lois - that is such a powerful position for you to be in....
I cant imagine - at this stage - feeling that level of detachment. That is something to aspire to.
I am sure that you have been through a lot of pain.
Has your H given you any signs that he wants to do any work - that he is trying to reconnect? Or has he just cut you off and not shown any interest?
I received two emails from WAP last week -they were purely in relation to me moving out of his house.
I( have heard nothing since and cannot expect to.
I do not think that WAP is going to be in contact - if at all. At this stage certainly he is done with me and D and is GUNNING for this new and rejuvenated life............I represent everything that is stale, wrong, upsetting and limiting.
x

You may want to visit Heather's threads. Just go up to the search button, click on it had type in LoisB and hit enter. Lois has written many postings and has poured out her heart and soul and has looked within in and is evolving each and every day into a stronger and more independent woman.

It takes time, but you'll get stronger and more independent too. Detachment takes time. Have you tried to find your old threads to see what advice was given to you years ago?

Read the other threads, go to the MLC archives and read as much as you can. Educate yourself on depression and mlc. You will find that you are not the problem...he is.

Yes, thanks Job. Up until the FB incident earlier I had been reading quite a bit and was calm and centred in my understanding of MLC and depression. I think I need to go back and re read as the FB thing has derailed me away from that stability.
Knowledge about this area of MLC and depression really helps me to put it in perspective and create calm for myself...
I want to be strong and I have, to an extent, always been quite independent to be honest. I know it may not be coming over that way in my posts lately!
You are right - detachment takes time.
I will revert now and read more - thank you for your support
x

Lois - do you have any info re links to the issue of OW on this site? Any further reading, even in the archives?
Wow - I do find it hard to believe that I am stronger than he is. I feel far more broken than he is (or seems to be).
That said I am still ingesting the enormity of the role of depression here......
I think it is harder with men in depression because their defence mechanisms in a lot of cases are so well refined and sophisticated.
WAP is a prime example of someone who could hide emotional turbulence. His level of disconnect of emotion is very refined.
Lats night I was stronger and was in full belief of what their relationship is built on - lies, lies, lies.
As someone posted recently, how can it be true love if it is built on other peoples pain and suffering.

Stay far, far, far away from FB. IMO.

Awww Job, thanks. :-)

I'm getting there. In my own, strange way.

No, my H has cut all of us outta his life. We have two daughters and they have now made it clear they want little to do with him and his insanity. He still blames everyone else. D19 called him toxic to his face. D11 did a happy dance when he cancelled his last visitation. I think he is realizing the damage he has done--hence the back to blaming. I honestly don't know where his head is at right now. And, I'm not really all that interested. I know my life is a lot better without him in it right now.

But, I hurt for my girls. The man I married is one really fabulous man. He is unable to see it or embrace it.

Re the issue of being a broken man - my impression of someone who is broken is that they are unable to function - work, eat, sleep, relate to friends etc.
I think he is more than managing all of this...
What I did read this morning which was interesting is that often, in masked depression, they van be aggressively fervent about this new life and the OW. Nothing will stand in their way. They want to "live" - in WAPs case he wanted "rejuvenation"......
It is like he is going full pelt into something new and completely different to what I ever knew of him or saw him do.
I can safely say that, as Job said, he was detaching for about 5 months very slowly but I NEVER saw BD coming. IT WAS A TOTAL SHOCK.

sorry, typo - should read 15 months

Yup. Depression in men is different. It just is. And, unfortunately, male depression/MLC isn't understood the way menopause or other depression is understood. Hopefully, someday there will be more information.

For now... Just know that it isn't about you. It's all inside him--all the ick is pouring forth and he has no clue how to handle it. So he is running as fast and furiously as he can. In the wrong direction.

"Lookin for love in all the wrong places, lookin for..."

Job's Thoughts on Why They Run Away gave me a lot of comfort early on.

Anything on the Resources in One Thread will help. There's lots to read.

He did admit in his BD email to me that he was depressed. However he blamed me for it. He said that for his own peace of mind he needed to end the relationship - that he had been greatly concerned, worried and feeling a lot of pressure.
At the time I didnt even really take the depression into consideration. I was more shocked by the way he said that he wanted a new beginning and that same doors must be therefore closed.
He then came out with the usual BS about I want to be your friend (but I know you dont want that - I am sad about it but I have to respect your decision) etc etc.
We are different people - its no ones fault - thats the way it is.
I need time and space to think. I only want email contact as I cant handle any verbal or emotional pressure etc etc.
I of course did not know about OW at that point.
I know it isnt me Lois - I truly did everything I could to be in relationship with him. But he just kept detaching and detaching - right in front of our eyes.
After reading some threads re MLC and depression my WAP is a poster image of this.....the time frames, the symptoms - everything...
There hasnt been any ick (monster behaviour, spewing etc) coming my way - just complete cutting off - cold - indifferent - wanting to get our things out asap. He moved all of my belongings out of our bedroom before I even returned from Oz.
My pain is really solid in my heart tonight....
Thank you for listening
x

Have been reading Jobs thread about why they run - yes that has been really really helpful.
WAP had a very difficult childhood - perhaps I need to place more emphasis on this than what I have been. Emotionally distant (and conversely hysterical) mother and physically/emotionally absent father (due to chronic and serial adultery.
He often had to separate his parents from hurting each other - when he was about 15,
So surely this must play in to things somewhere.
WAPs history has also been affairs - on and off.
One things I amy not have mentioned so far is the issue of a certain woman I will call "Default *" - default because she has been in his life for the last 25 years - she had an affair with him during his first marriage - she then had an affair with him during his relationship post marriage (this particular relationship was the cause of his divorce) - and she is still hanging around - years later. She sends him postcards etc etc cards for birthdays/Xmas...
x

People can be broken and yet be able to function because they can compartmentalize, i.e., like a pie, you can slice it up and take one piece and yet the others remain in the pan. Here's the definition of compartmentalization: to separate (something) into sections or categories: to separate (two or more things) from each other: or to put (something) in a place that is separate from other things. Here's a good example: He compartmentalizes his life by keeping his job and his personal life separate.

Keep in mind, that not all depressive people will react the same. Again, male depression is very different from that of women. The ads you see on TV about people staying in bed all day, not having energy, etc., this is true for some.

I know that this is difficult, but try not to over analyze your situation because there are many dynamics that are going on w/him and he is the only one that will figure it out because it is his journey to do so. Your journey is to figure out what you need to do, i.e., if there are things about yourself that you think need to be worked on, then do so. But whatever changes you make...they must be consistent and become permanent and not to just get his attention or win him back. It's a time of discovery for you, i.e., to learn new things, make new friends and yes, finish up projects and hobbies that you've not completed.

You are not a victim...you are a survivor. Allow him to swing in the wind and travel on his journey all by himself. BTW, we do get blamed for everything, even if the sky is purple, so unless his allegations are true, ignore them. They have to vilify us so that they have justification to drop us like hotcakes. It's all part of the process. You will need to determine if his allegations are Memorex or live. I suspect that they are Memorex and should remain so.

Focus on you and your daughter.

^^^ Oh yeah to the compartmentalization on the part of the MLCer. I was a World Champ Compartmentalizer for 5 straight years!

Innis, I can relate to a lot of things you posted. My H also started distancing himself, being annoyed with me, behaving strange about 18 months prior to BD. He told me that he was not happy in our M for the past 2-3 years (prior to BD), he wanted to start a new phase of this life �after me�, he wanted to be friends with me, blah, blah, blah. He also told me that is was best for both of us. I did notice the depression, but didn�t correlate it with MLC. He removed himself from my life completely and by the circumstances he was kind of living a new life. He works in another state, so he just left all his stuff in the house. Then he picked up some, but not all. And now I don�t see any urgency on his part to take the reminder of his belongings and separate finances/accounts any further. It�s been 18 month, so I�m further along on this journey.

And yes, he is able to function in other parts of his life, working and managing the bills and stuff.

You have very good advice here. Keep posting. I read your thread all the time, it helps me too.

Hi Bright Future - thanks for posting and i am very sorry to hear about your own situation.
is there another woman involved?
I am only 5 weeks since BD so it is still fresh for me. In that time I have found a place to live, after travelling from the other side of the world to get home, moved my things (and D's) out of his house - he has cut us off - coldly asked for me to leave our keys on his kitchen table as I was leaving for the last time last week and accused me of stealing his shampoo and conditioner.
Crazy things
I have been reading a lot here and so much of WAP makes sense in terms of depression , self medication with OW etc.
But the biggest pain is the apparent deletion of myself and D......for this new "beginning", for his "rejuvenation"....
Thank you for encouraging for me to keep posting. I have had a bad day - I am hoping tomorrow will be better..
x

I did not sleep well last night - in turmoil - sweating, pain etc.
I got up this morning quite early and sat with my self and my pain. I realised that I cant carry it any longer. My suffering has been too great over the last few weeks. I then remembered "Broken Heart on Hold" and started to read it again.
It reminded me of Gods place in all of this.
It reminded me that I havent handed this over to God - and I think now is the time. I have reached the point where I cant do it any longer.
I have sat here quietly with myself and spoken out - asked God for his help. I have had a sense of calm which I havent felt in days.
I guess this is all part of letting go and letting God do His work.
I realise that is all I can do. Nothing I do or say will make a difference to WAP now. Our lives are separate. There is no obvious need for communication now or in the future.
I now want to use this time to be the best person I can be and be the best mother I can be.
If it is Gods will, for WAP to ever be in contact again, then I need to trust that it will happen. I have nothing left to do or give.
Would appreciate thoughts?
Thanks everyone
I x

Turn it over to God and allow him to watch over your man. It's true, there's nothing you can say or do to change his course in life...only he can do that.

Time to focus on you and your daughter. Life is far too short to sit there and wait for any little tidbit he might toss your way. I know it hurts, but you've got to move forward and live your life to the fullest.

today is a new day. you get to decide to be ok, to be happy , to be strong. daily I ask for this.
I am a very spiritual person.
I know exactly the pain you are feeling, we all do. it is not easy.
I know the book you are referring too. it has helped me as well as another one by Sarah Young.

Thank you both - my upset is going in waves but I am continually trying to hand it over to God - I can do nothing else except trust in the process now. Too much pain I am afraid.
What is the book by Sarah Young?
x

jesus calling by sarah young
not sure protocol. it has helped me

The book Broken Heart on Hold is such a comfort.....it really brings you back into the space of trusting God and the bigger/picture and process.
It does give hope to the pained and wounded.....
Rook mentions a number of success stories and, likewise reading through success stories here on the site it does give a sense of possibility.
For the people here who are standing - how do you get through the times when it is most dark, where there is No contact when the WAh/P/W is ADAMANT that it is done, over, finished. When another person is involved?
Is this the meaning of letting go and letting God? So that he can quietly work behind the scenes on then WAH/W/P and the LBS?
x

Yes, you go no contact, i.e., dark, and allow God to work on your companion. M Go Blue was the first to come here and say let go, let God and it's true...

The more he is allowed to focus on himself and whatever he needs to do to get to the other side, the better. The more you contact/interact w/him, the longer it will take. His focus has to be on him and right now, his self medications.

This is your opportunity to work on yourself, make changes if necessary and focus on you and your daughter.

You have to have faith in God and yes, the system does work.

Hi there innishannon

I agree with everyone about letting go and putting your faith in God and let Him handle your H! I was able to do that the first time my H left and he did come home but he was not ready yet and has left again. I am putting him back into God's hands! What I am having trouble with is learning to accept that God may have a different plan for me this time...I KNOW, deep down inside that I will be ok whatever the outcome. I just need to reach the point of acceptance!!!

Are you reading Wonka's thread? He is a former MLCer. It is interesting to read about his journey...

(((hugs)))
CW

CW,

Prancing on the stage with my bright yellow feather boa around my neck.

This Wonka is a she.

Innis -

Just wanted to make a comment about the concept of standing in your sitch.

Standing is for situations where a formerly good spouse of long standing has gone temporarily MLC crazy. Standing is about honoring the past years of good marriage while waiting for a good spouse to recover from their temporary insanity.

BUT - your sitch may not be one of those where that is wise. You've only been together 3 years. In my experience, someone who cheats so soon into a marriage, usually has issues that run way deeper than MLC. You may not be able to see it now, but odds are good that he has some much deeper issue - personality disorder of some kind, or perhaps something else.

Try reading The Sociopath Next Door and see if any of it seems familiar.

Whatever you do, just focus on you and your child and getting your own life together. If he comes around and realizes his mistake - and you decide he's worth taking back - you can make that decision at that time. But don't put ANYTHING in your life on hold waiting for him. As hard as it may be to believe - he may have seemed perfect and charming early in the relationship - the odds that there is some serious underlying pathology there are very high.

Innis - first, I'm sorry you are here, but it's truly one of the best places to be for what you are going through. Gosh, I just finished reading your thread and you are experiencing what we all have or are currently. Your H sounds just like mine. Surprising how similar/scripted all of this is, isn't it?

Yes, handing it over to God (and I am not a a conventionally religious person)sure does help. Ask for help everyday, but remember to ask for help for your H as well. He's going through his own personal hell - demons we can't even imagine even though he has a mask on to hide it all. But it doesn't lessen your pain from being totally cut out of his life - as if you don't even exist. I feel the same way as you. I recently told my H that I felt like he just cut me off like a diseased appendage and threw me in a ditch by the side of the road. Probably shouldn't have said it, but I have expressed little to him over the past 9 months this has been going on. We are now seeing a mediator working toward D. Bleck.....

Anyway, my labored point (sorry)is by releasing it to a higher power is going to help so much. Doesn't mean you aren't going to have those down days, but realizing you have no control over him and trusting God to deal with him, will help you stay the course. It's his journey, one you are not allowed to go on with him despite your want to do so. You have a daughter who needs you so much more - be the woman you want her to be.

And come here often where you are unconditionally loved and highly understood.

My love to to you.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

CW,

Prancing on the stage with my bright yellow feather boa around my neck.

This Wonka is a she.

OMgoodness! Please forgive me Wonka!!!

I thought this might give you a little bit of a chuckle as well as some insight. It's called "Midlife for Dummies".

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...e=0&fpart=1

CW,

It's quite a revelation when posters slowly realize that I am a female Wonka without the top hat...LOL! No worries, honey.

Thank you so much everyone. I have been away with D as I performed in a concert Saturday eve - the one that WAP and I were supposed to be performing together - the organiser found another singer. It is literally 10 mins from WAPs sisters house and twenty minutes from where I know ow lives/ lived with her husband.
I played well but have been in pain.
I keep being reminded of his words at BD -

"I want 2014 to be a year of rejuvenation and new beginnings and that means that some doors must close."

Is this normal MLC script???

I also am pretty sure that WAP is with ow this weekend at a yoga retreat.
I am reading from the bible and trying to pass this over to God.
I am trying to trust in the bigger picture - I need to turn more to God.
I truly of not know what I would go without this site and all of this support at the moment. My situation often feels bleak at the moment.
Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for your posts - I appreciate your advice and support - as always.....

I think it was klm that posted? Re my WAP not being MLC because of the time frame/affair etc - is MLC on a timeline re the relationship? Yes, what you say is possible - my WAP dies NOT have a blemish free history. However he seemed devoted for a good amount of time in our relationship and, despite the depression and withdrawing he seemed to still want to try and make it work. The deterioration over the last few months - his worsening depression - withdrawal - self medication with OW until BANG - BD - and him showing so much of the script....sure it is more MLC... Gosh - I dont know any more...
The affair, at this early stage after BD - is one of the hardest things to cope with....that and the feeling of being deleted.
The more I educate myself here on this site and the more books I read the more I realise the process - so yes, reading is crucial for my well being and sense of stability at the moment.
I feel a bit better now that I am home in our apartment - I found the weekend hard being so close to places that I know so well connected to WAP.
As each day goes by I am finding that I am having to accept the process of letting go.
I have no choice in that my D and I have to continue with our life. We have things to be happy about and to be proud of.
I think its the shock of the extreme change. I spoke to/was in contact with WAP every day of our time together. It has now been nearly 6 weeks since BD and over a week since any email contact (and that email contact was business like and perfunctory by him).
Unlike a lot of people here now that I moved my things out of his house there is no particular contact/connection.
I sometimes wonder whether I moved my things too quickly???? My underlying sense is no - I didnt. Reading threads about OW etc people often advise to not accept particular modes of contact under those circumstances - I couldnt continue to have our things in his house when he is in full blown PA with her. He has also told me its over etc.
However I moved very quickly (everything out in 4 days) and I think, at first at least, that surprised him.
Now - SILENCE........No contact.......No spewing - no monster etc
Do any of you have the experience of WAH/W/P going completely silent so soon after BD....
I am starting to suspect that this may be an extreme case of MLC - there seems no interest in him knowing ANYTHING about our lives, where or how we are.
I am slowly trying to detach and to live as if he may never return. I am sure at the moment he is not the right person for either of us to be around.
It is in Gods hands now but the patience required is HUGE.......and the level of emotional discipline on the part of the LBS not to be affected by the affair/alienator.
Trying so hard to be strong

Thank you
x

Innis,

Everything you described sounds like typical (if you can call it that!) MLC.

My H has gone through long periods of silence. Silence, not only with me, but with our daughters. Currently, he doesn't even text or call them. He cancelled the last visitation with D11.

There's absolutely nothing unusual, in terms of MLC, in what you described. I know it seems like extreme change and it's easy to jump to some sort of conclusion. Don't. It's a waste of precious energy that you need right now for you and your daughter.

I know how hard this is. Probably, the hardest thing you will ever do.

Leave him to his journey. Respect his no contact by living your life and taking care of your daughter. Treat this as if he has died. If he comes back from the dead, it will be a wonderful return of the Prodigal Son. In the meantime, focus on YOU.

You can do this. I know it. You don't need to try to be strong, YOU ARE STRONG.

Lots of love,

Heather

innishannnon,
May of them go silent quickly and stay that way until they need something. What you have posted is typical mlc script. I know you are sitting there wondering and asking yourself if you've done the right things and in my opinion yes, you did. You couldn't leave your belongings in the home, especially since he had told you that it was over and also because of the ow. There is no telling what he would have done w/your belongings had you not gone there and gotten them. So, check that what if off your list.

Right now, he's off into the world of selfish me and the euphoria of the affair and his new life is consuming his time. You and your daughter are put away in a box and stored in one of the compartments in his mind. There may be times that he thinks about you, especially when it comes to places you visited or certain music, etc...but they try very hard to keep us in the box.

For now, you have to find a way to accept the fact that there is nothing you could have done differently because you didn't cause this mlc situation and you can't fix him. The only thing you can do is let him go. If he wakes up and decides he wants to try to reconcile, then you will be the one to make the final decision on that...but from where I'm sitting...that could be a very long time from now, possibly 2-7 years or longer, depending upon whether he faces his issues, accepts those things that he couldn't/can't change and grows up. If he doesn't grow up and mature properly, he'll be an old, lost and miserable teenager for the rest of his life.

Keep the focus on you and your daughter. This is now your time to things for the two of you.

Quote:

Re my WAP not being MLC because of the time frame/affair etc - is MLC on a timeline re the relationship? Yes, what you say is possible - my WAP dies NOT have a blemish free history.

No, there's no time prerequisite on MLC, BUT - I'm just pointing out that it's relatively uncommon for this to occur so early in a relationship without there being some other underlying pathology. And if, as you say, his past is not "blemish free" - you may need to look a little more closely at that past and see if this is just a predictable repetition of an old pattern.

I've seen two patterns on this board when a marriage (or serious relationship) falls apart so early:

1) The spouse was cheating all along. Many times a marriage that falls apart in the first year or two, it turns out the spouse was already cheating BEFORE the wedding! You may think it is impossible but just like drug addicts, they can be very adept at hiding things.

or 2) The WAS has a history of sudden turnabouts like this. Many posters here thought somehow THEY would be different from the previous three wives left without child support, and are surprised when their spouse walks away that he treats THEIR children with the same disregard he did his children from his previous marriages.

Please read that book on The Sociopath Next Door. My sister was married to one. He seemed like the perfect loving husband, then walked out one day. Turns out he would play kissy face/"I love you baby" at the door when getting picked up for work, then complain about my sister all the way to work to his co-worker. She had no idea. He's had two marriages since and 2 more children besides my niece and has abandoned them all with the same abruptness. Sociopaths can be very very good at playing a part - until they no longer want to play it.

What do you really know about his past relationships? Do you only have HIS version, or have you ever spoken to any of his previous partners? Did he leave someone to be with you?

Thanks KML,
I think you raise a very important point and it is not something that has escaped my thoughts during this whole process.
I have read the book years ago and just had quick scan of it on Google Books (although it is a reduced/.edited version there)....
My WAP does have a history of affairs to SOME extent. He has not "left" his primary relationships for them however. My understanding is that he has been kicked out on a number of occasions.
I am not sure whether he was seeing anyone when `i met him. What I do know is there is a woman I will cal "Default ****" who has been in his life, on and off, for about 25 years. They have been intimate and she has had a recurring series of affairs with him (she is divorced). She seems to not want to let go and, possibly - in terms of his ego - neither does he....
So whilst I know that the confirmed OW is on the scene I would not be surprised if Default **** is also there in the mix....especially now that he has unilaterally decided to free himself from me....
You could be spot on re sociopathy but so much of what has happened over the last 15 months fits the MLC script perfectly.
I could have been completely misguided, I admit, and he could have been lying and fabricating things right through our relationship.
Even though its been just 3 years since we have started our relationship I have just assumed that MLC can hot any couple at any time...
However I do take your point that compared to many here it is a relatively short amount of time. The OW in the mix does not all bode well when you look at the comparatively short length of time we have been together - but could it also just be a coincidence re depression and MLC.
The other thing that has concerned me is his use of porn - there os one picture in particular that is of a woman he apparently knew BEFORE he met me - but he took the photo....now that upset me greatly...
So yes, it has been difficult in some respects over the last 15 months before BD.
But as to whether this is a PD - I am not sure....
Any further thoughts?
x

Laying all jokes aside, he sounds like Prince Charles and the ow that's been on the scene for a long time is like Camilla. That long term woman is going to be the third party in any relationship that he has.

How long have you known this man? Did ever talk about his past?

Hi Job - that is a very funny analogy!! (I live in the UK so I can appreciate the sentiment)...
Have known him for just under 3.5 years - he seemed willing to talk about his past - Default **** and others (I have met his ex-wide and some of his ex-partners ) so there has been no deliberate move to try and hide things from me.
D and I were fully integrated into his family etc.
When I met him he did mention Default **** and I said that I would not be able to deal with that situation and myself in the mix. He apparently spoke with D**** and was upfront with her about em and that was that. She was very upset but they have, apparently, been able to remain friends.
She has persistently sent him cards at Xmas and for his birthdays - all with Dear WAP, Happy Xmas/Birthday etc, all mu love, as ever, forever, D****
Sort of in bad taste considering he was living with his partner at the time???
He always maintained they were just friends but I know he was in touch with her sending photos of him in some of his performances so - who knows.
What I do know (hence her title) is that he has a default mechanism back to her historically.
In that sense I am surprised that there is ALSO a separate OW involved in the mix. My cynicism tells me D**** would have been a known and easier option in terms of ego feed and validation.
mmmm - maybe he has both
This is just all too much

Sorry - just to add that he was with his wife for around 15 years - she kicked him out re Default **** - he had divorced about 10 years before he met me....so there was a large amount of time for him to develop relationships with women - but no second marriage....
Default **** has been there for a long time.....
You are right - I suspect she will be the elephant in the room no matter who is in the main frame....
However he seems relatively disinterested in her as a person - she must be merely a comfort (perhaps maternal transference) and a sex buddy....
I have never met her but by all accounts she is very meek and adores him....
Hhhmph -
x

Well, I hate to say this...but you and your daughter are far better off being out of that house and away from his antics. Your story about the "default" sure does sound like dear old Camilla. It must be the tea over there. LOL!

Any way, there's nothing you can do about the three of them, but sit on the curb and watch the fireworks begin.

I dont know why Job but you have made me smile - and that at the moment is a rarity!
To be honest you are right - regardless of what this is myself, and most importantly my D, do not need this stuff going on.
I am not a prude but I do have ethics and morals and I certainly have those expectations for my D - who - at the age of 12 - is at an impressionable age...
I dont need this message being sent to her - directly or indirectly...
Re the tea - maybe!! - and to be honest I have never liked Camilla.....
x

Quote:

When I met him he did mention Default **** and I said that I would not be able to deal with that situation and myself in the mix. He apparently spoke with D**** and was upfront with her about em and that was that. She was very upset but they have, apparently, been able to remain friends.
She has persistently sent him cards at Xmas and for his birthdays - all with Dear WAP, Happy Xmas/Birthday etc, all mu love, as ever, forever, D****
Sort of in bad taste considering he was living with his partner at the time???
He always maintained they were just friends but I know he was in touch with her sending photos of him in some of his performances so - who knows.

Ok, so far we have established 1) he's a serial cheater 2) he likes to keep women on the hook for a backup plan and 3) he has poor boundaries (not telling Default woman that it's inappropriate to send him those messages when he was in a relationship).

Frankly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out he was continuing to see Default Woman during your relationship.

Sorry to be a little harsh here, but he seems like a very poor risk going forward, even if his little romance with current OW blows up. Would you advise your daughter to date someone like this?

TOTAL agreement with KML's comments above^^.

This man is NOT a role model of what a husband (or "Sig Other" or partner) should be. A terrible thing for your d to witness.

Also, who cares if it is MLC? What difference does it make? There is ZERO evidence that says MLCers come home more often. They change, yes.

But for the better or worse, depends. He's 62 and this is NOT out of the blue.

There is nothing "new" or wildly different or out of character for him here.

(But so what if there were? I urge you to stop reading about MLCs and start creating a new stable life for your d and yourself. SHE must be the priority, seriously. As a military family we moved a lot. Your d is at the age where that gets to be traumatic for them. Give her some stability, please. Trust me on this.)

He's a chronic liar, so while you were shocked, it does not mean this has "suddenly" hit HIM.

To me, his NYE note sounds resolute. There is no room for him to "work on" the R, at all. Nor a need to, b/c he's into OWs. And his depression is all about you.

Only time away from you and yet not so happy, will reveal that to him. You can't.

And pressuring him in any way is what he says he does NOT want and I'd believe him.

In,
I have not seen many women move their young daughters across the ocean to be with a man who won't put a ring on the finger. I know you feel that m was not what YOU wanted, or at least you knew HE did not want that. I get that.

But why MOVE with her, to him?

Why take your d to live w/you while unmarried, to live with a man who is clearly not suited for long Rs?

Not to make you feel guilty as a mother but to remind you that SHE has to come first now. Where is her bio father? Anywhere nearby? Can she spend some time with him soon?

Wow, I can only imagine what she must think of men.

You (both) got dumped so unceremoniously, I cannot imagine wanting this man in my life OR HERS.

BTW, I missed it, but what becomes of his r with your d? ANY contacts for them, or is she also cut off?

If there is interest in maintaining contact between them, I hope they can do so without any interference from you. I mean, this guy MIGHT mean a lot to her.

But otherwise, I say RUN FROM HIM as fast as a plane can carry you. (In 7 years on this board, I have never said that before.)

But you are not married to this CAD, and the one advantage of that, is there is nothing to work out legally or in terms of custody. I cannot see any reason to work on this. Seriously.

Whatever you believed about how well matched you two are, is false or no longer relevant.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you and your d can move on to a life in which SHE and you are the priorities and independence from him is achieved.

Sorry but this guy reeks of being BAD NEWS in nearly every way possible.

You can and must do better. Are you in counseling? I mean, this is the second or third long R that you have been in that has not lasted.

What role do you believe your behavior, or your choice in men, plays in this?

I'm not into assigning blame but do want you to learn from this ordeal. It's the only upside of this experience, improving ourselves and learning and usually, improving our R's.

Dig deep and do right by your d. Please. That's the most clarifying thing I can tell you is to

DO RIGHT BY HER and get her into a place she can have stability and the floor won't be yanked out from under her. And be there for her.

When my marital crisis began, my pain and anger kept me from being fully present for my kids. Thank God they had each other. Your d is an only child. She is counting on you to make HER life stable.

Do right by her and you will have a lot fewer regrets in life.

WHEW!
have just woken up here and read your posts - Thanks KML and 25yearsmlc for your posts - I very much appreciate your thoughts and feedback.....there is a lot there for me to ingest (I do feel slightly deflated) and to respond to (which I would like to do) - so I think I will do it in sections if thats OK -

Quote:

[/quote] This man is NOT a role model of what a husband (or "Sig Other" or partner) should be. A terrible thing for your d to witness.

Quote:

- I agree - regardless of why this has happened NO child should be put through this.....I would also agree that his behaviour is not reflective of care, respect, honour and trust.

Quote:

But for the better or worse, depends. He's 62 and this is NOT out of the blue. There is nothing "new" or wildly different or out of character for him here.

Quote:

- I am not sure whether the WAY he has handled this is out of the blue or not. I have not known him through the breakdown of other key relationships (ie his first marriage) and I havent spoken with any of his ex-partners (I do know his wife quire well but have never talked to her about anything personal etc) so I cant say whether what he has done to us is in or out of character.....What I CAN say is that the last 12-15 months there has been a slow and incremental change in him in terms of his ability to emotionally connect, first with me and then with D. This detachment was not apparent until this point - he seemed loving, happy, engaged and committed on every level as far as I could tell. This slow change did seem unusual at the time and I struggled to make sense of it. It was only after reading about male depression and linking things back to his childhood (which was very difficult, with both his mother and father) that i had any hope of any answer. That, along with the way he emailed me NYE, his new found working out/popping vitamins, wanting rejuvenation, OW etc etc made me suspect that it was MLC. For me things seemed to have slotted in that way.....I could be completely wrong of course....

Quote:

I urge you to stop reading about MLCs and start creating a new stable life for your d and yourself. SHE must be the priority, seriously.

Quote:

- I have done everything in my power since NYE to be there for D - I have found us a place to live in record time, moved our things quickly from his house, we are living right next to her school, encouraging her to spend time with friends, I have organised sessions with a play therapist/child counsellor for her. I have had leave from work so have been able to devote my time to her. I have given her as much stability as I possibly could under the circumstances - and, every day, I am continuing to do that. I have deliberately NOT moved her far away again as she has just started secondary school and is happy there so I wanted her to be next to the school and continue with that.....She IS my priority.

Quote:

He's a chronic liar, so while you were shocked, it does not mean this has "suddenly" hit HIM.

Quote:

- You may be right about this not hitting him - yes - I do believe he is a liar. It is so hard for me to comes to terms with this as I did trust him and he encouraged me to do so - so the lies and the deceit, with no particular apology nor remorse - is absolutely devastating. As a person I hold great store in being honest. He knew this about me. It is very shocking that he could have lied to em (and my child) at such a profound level.

Quote:

To me, his NYE note sounds resolute. There is no room for him to "work on" the R, at all. Nor a need to, b/c he's into OWs. And his depression is all about you. Only time away from you and yet not so happy, will reveal that to him. You can't. And pressuring him in any way is what he says he does NOT want and I'd believe him.

Quote:

- Yes, I am sure the NYE email sounds resolute - and i am sure that when he wrote it it was - his mind was (and probably is) full of the virtues of the new OW (and possibly others???). This is not unusual for people in or not in MLC to sound this resolute....at BD they are always sure.....the last thing they will do is give any impression that there is a window as they are running and blame it all on the spouse/partner. This is what he has done. I do believe he is depressed but I KNOW that I have not caused it. I am clear about that - whether time will help him see that I dont know... I have not pressured him - aside from making contact with him to organise removal of our things I have not made ANY contact. No begging, pleading, crying etc which he was expecting I am sure. I have put NO pressure on him whatsoever - in fact I have given him everything that he has wanted....

Quote:

I have not seen many women move their young daughters across the ocean to be with a man who won't put a ring on the finger. I know you feel that m was not what YOU wanted, or at least you knew HE did not want that. I get that. But why MOVE with her, to him? Why take your d to live w/you while unmarried, to live with a man who is clearly not suited for long Rs?

Quote:

- When we moved here I didnt move to be purely with him. When we were licing in Ireland my work situation was such taht I coudlnt survive on what I was earninga s a single mother. I had been applying for jobs for about 2 years before I met WAP. The decision to move here was when I was offered my current job which is quite a senior position and a big step up from what I had in Ireland. I spent quite a long time looking at places near my work and even near where WAPs house is and, after months of this and him EMPHATICALLY wanting us to live with him, I agreed. My close friends were also witness to this, one in particular took him aside and spoke to him at some length about the seriousness of such a move - he assured her he was 100% committed in every way. My family and friends were all totally believing him. At the time he gave me every reason to do the same. It was only after we moved and were integrated into his life that I came to understand about his shorter term relationships (I knew about his marriage etc) so I was in the position to do the best I could and wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. He was giving me every reason to think that he was committed and wanted us in his life - both in word and in deed. Both of us have been divorced - neither of us wanted to re marry. This was never on the table for discussion and I was totally fine with that (ie - i was not secretly harbouring a desire to change his mind etc). What mattered to me was stability, security and a loving, caring relationship/environment for myself and D and I thought he wanted that too.

Quote:

Not to make you feel guilty as a mother but to remind you that SHE has to come first now. Where is her bio father? Anywhere nearby? Can she spend some time with him soon?

Quote:

- I have sole custody of D (since 2011) and her bio father cannot have any access with her except for written word. He was abusive post separation and I needed to get protection for herself and myself from the courts,. He does not write to her (or at least very intermittently) so sadly this is not an option for her. That said I am doing everything I can to ensure that she is surrounded by positive male role models and influences in her life, especially at this time.

Quote:

Wow, I can only imagine what she must think of men.

Quote:

- not much at the moment hence the above and the instigation of counselling for her. I do want her to move forward and grow in to a person that can trust and respect men - I want her to know and believe that there are good men out there.

Quote:

You (both) got dumped so unceremoniously, I cannot imagine wanting this man in my life OR HERS.

Quote:

- Umm - yes - we have BOTH been dumped - cruelly and without any remorse (outwardly at least)

Quote:

BTW, I missed it, but what becomes of his r with your d? ANY contacts for them, or is she also cut off?

Quote:

- Yes - he has cut BOTH of us off. He hasnt asked anything about D - nothing about her welfare, well being. Nothing. He has deleted BOTH of us. His only mention of her was in the BD email where he asked me to apologise to her for him. (I have to presume that was just lip service). There os no interest in him maintaining contact with her, or me. He has meant a lot to her but she is so wounded and betrayed by him that she does not want contact.

Quote:

But otherwise, I say RUN FROM HIM as fast as a plane can carry you. (In 7 years on this board, I have never said that before.)

Quote:

- Oh dear - that is not good.....I seem to be the only exception in seven years

Quote:

Whatever you believed about how well matched you two are, is false or no longer relevant.

Quote:

- That is hard for me to come to terms with - I truly believed that we were well matched in many areas. To think that that was ALL false is hard. No longer relevant - that I can see - perhaps particularly in the face of how he has treated us in the past 6 weeks. But top think that we had nothing in common for the entire time we were together - that is harder...

Quote:

You can and must do better. Are you in counseling? I mean, this is the second or third long R that you have been in that has not lasted. [quote]

- Yes I am seeing a counsellor - I am having a session with him in a couple of hours. He has been under the impression, as I have, that depression and MLC is driving this (he has quite a lot of experience working in the realm of clients re MLC) but I will talk with him about what you have suggested - Re other relationships - aside from a few before my marriage I have only had my marriage - I was with ex-H for 13 years. I posted at the time of separation here about that experience (I too believe he was going through a crisis of some sort). However that was a long term relationship. I was then alone for 3 years before I became involved with WAP. I took the issue of dating, especially with a D, very seriously. I thought I was particularly choosy with WAP. He gave me every indication (as did his friends at the time) that he was very serious about BOTH myself and D.

I really do appreciate all of your feedback but I must admit that after reading the last few posts I am a bit destabilised. I have read quite a bit on this site and have been sure that my situation is a case of MLC/depression. While I agree that in a way it is irrelevant - that I have to forge ahead with D regardless - in my mind and as a source of calm I have believed this to be true.

Now - well, I don't know what to think

x

Apologies for the quoting errors - I haven't used that facility here before so am only just getting the hang of it..
x

Breathe Innis.

I know it's hard to take all of this in and assimilate it. Sometimes when you don't know what to do, it's best to do nothing and wait for the answers. It's probably too soon to really get a good grasp on what's going on. The answers about WhY and How will come with time and the way becomes more and more clear.

Right now, focus on your daughter and making sure her needs are met.

In

I don't mean to depress you. But I'm sure KML and my post were upsetting. I'm trying to clarify things for you, not make them worse.

I say "run from him" partly b/c you are not married. Not that he doesn't matter. Not that the r does not matter. But since he's not her dad, the R was fairly short--3 years-- and he's such a jerk about no contact, and he HAS a history of dishonesty (as it turns out), that cumulatively, I don't see him drastically changing anytime soon, if ever. So...Where does that leave you?

That^^ is how I'd sum up your situation atm.

Is your job going well enough? Can you make it on your salary now?

I am glad to hear you are near your d's school. I have 2 d's and the single thing they MOST wanted to know in the middle of our marital crisis, was IF we were going to have to move.

When I said "No more OR if we have one, it'll be close by", they were visibly relieved.

My MC/IC said to stress to kids what will NOT CHANGE in Their lives with a split.

I think having the Same school, same friends, same areas as before, is pretty darn good. If the only thing missing or changed, is WAP absence, That would be very good.

Meanwhile you'll know you did your best in a lousy situation. Is there any legal recourse you can have there? Have you seen a solicitor or barrister there?

It would be worth a call at least.

Keep on keeping on. I know this hurts but the faster you get thru this and to the other side, the better for you both. But the only way thru this is THROUGH it. You have to process a lot of conflicting events/words.

Sorry you are here but it's a great place to be, for a lousy reason.

Hi KML,

Listen , you haven't made me depressed!! Nor upset!!
What your posts HAVE done is wake me up to an alternative that I needed to face.
So I need to thank you for it.
What I haven't done in all of this is attend, in any real and important way, to WAP's HISTORY. I knew it was there but somehow did not connect what is happening now to what has happened with him before.
I have fought SO HARD to be with my D.
During my divorce I fought extremely hard against my ex-H - she is my absolute priority in my life. There is nothing that is more important than her welfare and well being.
I have found out apartment that is literally two houses form her school gate (you can see her school buildings from or sitting room window).
the only potential drawback is that it is round the corner from WAP's house. But I had to bite the bullet if I wanted her close to her school. It is an area that she loves and knows. That is the trade off for keeping things consistent and safe and secure for her. That is something I just need to deal with....
My job is fine - my boss has been AMAZING. I have been on sick leave for four weeks and he has given me the option to work from home for the this week) next week is mid term break) - so my work have been completely understanding of this process. I am very lucky that I am valued in my job. Mind you I have worked extremely hard and I have a very strong work ethic which is probably why they have been happy to support me. I rang my boss from Australia once i received BD email and he got it straight away....he is a father himself....
I do have legal recourse as we lived with him for longer than two years. However I don't want that route. I have removed our things. We have our place and we are safe and secure here. There is nothing left to fight for...
Despite being absolutely broken apart by this with the help of friends I have managed to get us into our new place lock stock and barrel in a month. D has been at school bar one day when she had a very bad cold. I do feel as if I have done my best for us. I have been extremely practical on a lot of fronts. I redirected our mail 3 weeks ago (that shocked WAP)...so I guess I am very efficient when I need to be...
I want to move through - I hate being in this much pain - I hate the fact that I put my soul and my heart and my trust in a man who has the propensity top do this to myself and my child regardless of whether it is MLC or not...
His deletion/no contact with us and the affair has been the worst part of all of this.
Thank you for your support
x

Quote:

What I haven't done in all of this is attend, in any real and important way, to WAP's HISTORY. I knew it was there but somehow did not connect what is happening now to what has happened with him before.

THIS is what I was getting at!

Now - don't go beating yourself up any. You've done a great job of taking care of yourself and your daughter. Congratulations on having gotten yourself this good job, and on being able to care for yourself. I know it must be demoralizing to have pinned your hopes on this fellow and then have him blow up in such a spectacular way, but it may turn out to be a blessing that it happened now and not much later.

Good things to do right now:

1) Make a budget and plan for your independent financial future. Check out the MrMoneyMustache blog for inspiration.

2) Plan for stress reduction - whatever works for you. Whether it's running, a nightly bubble bath, yoga, meditation - whatever works for you, schedule it into your week. Make it a priority.

3) Get a makeover - new haircut, color, makeup? Something to make you feel sassy and new.

4) Get some support - whether counseling or a 12 step group or some such - to figure out if there's something about why YOU picked these guys. Even when THEY are clearly in the wrong - there may be something about YOUR radar that you didn't pick it up. It would be good to address this. (I have a friend, for instance, who inevitably picks men who are alcoholics or ex-alcoholics. Give her a room of 20 men, let her pick one out on sight alone who she finds attractive- guarantee you she will pick out the alcoholic. And me - for the first few years after my divorce, I was attracted to men who turned out to be Love Avoidants; of course, what was really happening was that I really didn't want to get too close after being burned in my divorce, so I felt kinda "safe" with them.)

What NOT to do right now - ruminate on the ex, try to read his mind, wonder about what he's doing, obsess about him - all GIGANTIC wastes of time. If he comes crawling back later, THEN you can decide whether you want him back. But I'm guessing once you get a little distance, you're going to start to make sense of some things and realize he's not the one for you. You deserve better.

Originally Posted By: kml

Quote:

What I haven't done in all of this is attend, in any real and important way, to WAP's HISTORY. I knew it was there but somehow did not connect what is happening now to what has happened with him before.

THIS is what I was getting at!

Now - don't go beating yourself up any. You've done a great job of taking care of yourself and your daughter. Congratulations on having gotten yourself this good job, and on being able to care for yourself. I know it must be demoralizing to have pinned your hopes on this fellow and then have him blow up in such a spectacular way, but it may turn out to be a blessing that it happened now and not much later.

Good things to do right now:

1) Make a budget and plan for your independent financial future. Check out the MrMoneyMustache blog for inspiration.

2) Plan for stress reduction - whatever works for you. Whether it's running, a nightly bubble bath, yoga, meditation - whatever works for you, schedule it into your week. Make it a priority.

3) Get a makeover - new haircut, color, makeup? Something to make you feel sassy and new.

4) Get some support - whether counseling or a 12 step group or some such - to figure out if there's something about why YOU picked these guys. Even when THEY are clearly in the wrong - there may be something about YOUR radar that you didn't pick it up. It would be good to address this. (I have a friend, for instance, who inevitably picks men who are alcoholics or ex-alcoholics. Give her a room of 20 men, let her pick one out on sight alone who she finds attractive- guarantee you she will pick out the alcoholic. And me - for the first few years after my divorce, I was attracted to men who turned out to be Love Avoidants; of course, what was really happening was that I really didn't want to get too close after being burned in my divorce, so I felt kinda "safe" with them.)

What NOT to do right now - ruminate on the ex, try to read his mind, wonder about what he's doing, obsess about him - all GIGANTIC wastes of time. If he comes crawling back later, THEN you can decide whether you want him back. But I'm guessing once you get a little distance, you're going to start to make sense of some things and realize he's not the one for you. You deserve better.

WHAT KML JUST SAID^^^^...and fwiw, this may sound superficial but bear with me.
I love perfume, and wonderful scents bring me a lot of emotional connection.

So when my h left, I bought two new scents I really loved but had not worn around h.

For some reason when I'd wear it, it made me feel like the "new" me in my new life, and it did Not serve as a reminder of anything negative.

When you eat meals, try to eat your favorite (and relatively healthy...) food, to Enjoy it, and force yourself to take naps or mentally to rest, and work out and get sleep and just, COMFORT and SOOTHE, yourself.

Keep on keeping on...

Thank you both - I really do appreciate your kind words.
I thought I would look at a few positives that I have done for myself (and D) today/

- I finally completed the moving of all the important items that we have into the storage centre. It is now a load off my mind that that is done. Even though it was hard seeing all of our gear loaded up into a tiny space I am reminded of just how much I have successfully dealt with in the last six weeks....)
- I bought some nice shower gel and a had a long shower and painted my nails
- I bought some healthy veg and am going to make a stir fry for us tonight
- I went to Mass today ( the first time in this city for 2 and a half years) - I introduced myself to the parish priest and I have registered D and I now in the parish. I have also made an appointment to speak with him in confidence early next week...

Interestingly the homily today referred to the parable re "no external force can make a person "unclean". A persons "uncleanliness" (Adultery, fornication, theft, deceit etc etc etc) comes from within that person.No matter what spin they put on it.
I was sitting quietly in prayer after Mass thinking about this.
This is a lesson we could all learn from when WAS our blaming us for their depression (n my case) etc etc etc

I know not everyone is religious here but I am learning to lean on God more and more every day.

I don't know how I ma going to do it but I have a growing sense that I just want to be the best person I can be - for both myself and my D.

Thank you for caring - its not easy every minute of the day (this morning I was crying) but I am trying to move ahead..
x

Shoot - I am feeling sad again ....
Sorry for venting everyone
This is so hard

x

Innis, hang in there. You�ve done all the right things for you and your D.

I like kml�s suggestion of a makeover. Do you have friends where you live?

A makeover would be good - I will try and look into that.
We have some friends nearby but not a huge amount. I have tried over the last few years to make friends and I am usually a very sociable person - however we spent a lot of time with WAP and his two sons who also live locally (we haven't heard a peep from them at all) so it is lonely.
I am trying not to burden my friends with my grief.
Today - I feel as if I have a huge knot or ball inside me - it is heavy and sore.
Am struggling - sorry everyone:(
x

There is no need to apologize for how you feel. It's normal to have good and bad days. It's all part of the grieving process. You are grieving the loss of friendship and companionship. Feel the pain and then release it.

This is your time to venture out into the world and either meet up w/your old friends or even make new ones. Nothing says you have to sit there and tell them every detail. In fact, it's better not to say much to them at all about the situation. If you have one really good friend that you can lean on, this person would be the one that I would have those talks with.

Pamper yourself a bit, even if it is only doing your hair or a bubble bath...but you need to be kind to yourself and understand that you won't get over this today or tomorrow because it takes a while to do so.

Innis,

The sadness serves a purpose. Don't apologize. Face it and be really good to yourself.

Thank you - both of you for your responses....
I guess whether it is (or isn't) MLC I have to grieve the relationship that I THOUGHT it was -
Regardless of whether WAP decides to ever look my way again (or whether I would take him back) I have to grieve? Right?
I guess I just wasn't prepared to go through this level of grief..
I have a few vey good friends who I have spoken to and they understand. Not so much about MLC but friends who have known me and D for a long time and who love us. So I can lean on them to some degree.
I am also aware of not overstepping my welcome...
And in the end my relationship with WAP was mine - so I am the only one who can truly face the feelings.
Maybe I am in denial but I keep coming back to MLC - not ignoring his past - but just in relation to the way he has handled the whole thing in the last 6 weeks.
I do need to be kind to myself - I feel so fragile
Thanks everyone
x

For me, I discovered some of the pain was more about past hurts, things I had never really face and/or buried. When I peeled those layers and really looked at those past hurts, I was able to put the situation with my H in a new perspective. I found clarity and realized how his actions really had nothing to do with me. There's freedom and treasure buried on those sad feelings so honor them and yourself for facing the hard stuff.

Thanks Lois - I want to try and address things - I really do.
I am trying to register that WAPs actions are his and his alone - despite the projection and blame he is levelling at me - I know that this is his crisis - MLC or something far deeper.
I also know rationally that OW is a bandaid. But it is SO PAINFUL.
Its just that in my sad moments - in the moments when the pain is great - I blame myself.
Could I have done more? Could I have been more loving. Maybe although I do believe I tried my best.....
I think I am also finding no contact hard and, because of the way that all of this has transpired - there seems no real closure - at least on my side. I think I would have felt more closure if I had spoken to him at some point.
At this point of time I miss him - or at least the person who I thought was my partner. Now he seems like an alien who has deleted us...
x

Ok, Innis,

Believe me, I understand, we all get the pain...the OW/OM ignites a pain that I thought would, literally, kill me. I learned the true meaning of heartbreak. I, literally, felt my heart was breaking into pieces.

What would you have done?

Answer that. What would you have done to prevent this??

Originally Posted By: LoisB

What would you have done to prevent this??

Nothing. Zilch. Zip.

You are not responsible for the MLCer's choices, actions, reactions, and behaviors. It is all on the MLCer. It isn't within your power to "prevent" this at all. All you can do is to set them free to work through their chit. Put the focus squarely on YOU and how you'd like to create your own life separate from the MLCer. And make so darn interesting that you'll have great stories to tell during cocktail parties!

Read Job's "Why they run" and look up on attachment disorders in children. It really helps to understand how the damage happened long before you came along.

Thanks Lois/Wonka,

Yes I have read why they run - it was one of the first threads I read and it was really really helpful - that was a few weeks ago so I think I will re-read it for further clarification.....
Lois - I can only imagine the heartbreak - I know we all understand that part of it- I wasn't trying to sound as if I was unique in all of this - far from it!!!! I guess I am going through a raw/rough patch. Is we all know some days are better than other s- some moments of the day are better than others.
So _ i have been thinking about what more I could have done - you are right. Nothing. I am human , like we all are BUT I do realise that this is far beyond anything I could have wanted, caused etc etc.....
I was thinking today about our life before I met WAP. I was single, strong, had worked on my self - was happy in our life.....I want to find that again.
I will re-read the post now Lois - thanks for reminding me...
I x

I wasn't judging. Really :-) REALLY!

I'm working and watching the boards so I may have come off short. Sorry. No, I was just trying to say that it's perfectly normal to feel the way you do. It's really "bring you to your knees" stuff.

One other quick question - it concerns WAPs best friend...he has always been a very close friend of mine too.
I need some advice (not that I can necessarily change anything at this stage).
When I found out about OW it was on the heels of a conversation that I had with WAPs bf who was CONVINCED that WAP was not having an affair/there was no OW. Convinced not only because he believed this of him generally but also because he had asked WAP straight out whether there was anyone else (Jan 10~) and WAP emphatically denied it. In fact WAP lied to his bf and said that the weekend he was actually with OW he was helping his son install a kitchen 4 hours away in our home town. So WAPs bf was at pains to convince me that WAPs stories were believable.
I am not usually like this (and i may regret it I think) but when I found out about OW I text WAPs bf and told him what I knew. I was so cross that he had lied to BOTH OF US..
I would usually not involve friends in this way....but the deceit just made me so cross.
I haven't heard from WAPs bf AT ALL (I did say in my text that I did not expect to necessarily get a response)...
I now feel silly -

My only blip re outward anger/upset so far - but I feel like I have let myself down
x

I would let the issue of the text message to your SO's friend go. You did it when you were disappointed and angry. There's not way to take it back...so let it go. If this friend finally contacts you, keep your discussion about your SO to nil. Right now, the friend may not know how to deal w/you and the info.

Relatives are thicker than blood w/the MLCer and you will find that friends tend "choose" sides sometimes and he may have opted to sit on the sidelines a bit and wants to stay out of it.

What do you do? Leave it alone and don't contact this friend...if he is a true friend he'll contact you sometime, but again, it's alot of info for him to digest right now and he doesn't want to get in the middle of the situation. It's very normal.

BTW, please stop beating yourself up over this stuff. You are human being and until you get handle on your situation, you'll have one step forward, two steps back. It's normal!

Innis,

You are awfully hard on yourself. Have you always been this way??

You were hurt, betrayed, shocked, etc... I think I sat in the garage and bawled my eyes out the day I found out. Not exactly something I would have done otherwise!

My point being...don't beat yourself up. You are already down and I don't see anything you did as unforgivable.

My H hasn't spoken to his former best friend in months and months. He withdrew from him, just as he did from me.

I think there could be a million and one reasons why the bf hasn't contacted you. Maybe HE feels embarrassed at how he tried so hard to convince YOU!! Who knows. YOu didn't do anything wrong. Let it go. Men are different about such things and maybe he feels it would be wrong of him to "take sides" at this point.

It wasn't until much later in the situation that my H's former bf felt comfortable reaching out to me. It was like he needed to see for himself that H really had gone off his rocker. A lot of evidence had to stack up before he was convinced. Who knows!

Let it be and take care of yourself.

It's time to start a new thread. Think of a name that is inspiring and hopeful. Generally, when you get to 10 pages/100 posts, it's time to start over. :-)

Thanks for your invaluable support guys - I cant tell you how much this means...
Firstly - how do I start a new thread - just copy and paste this thread's browser address and think of a new name????
Lois - I am not usually THIS hard on myself - I must say. I think this is in reaction to my shock and the level of betrayal.
I am trying to work through this betrayal - this is on the heels of betrayal by my ex-H when I was married. This was 5-6 years ago - a long time ago and I have sorted through most of the immediate grief about it BUT it has shaped the way that I view infidelity and what my boundaries are moving forward. I came to this conclusion pretty fast after my ex-H left to be with his secretary.
So - I explained to WAP just what this issue meant to em and the reasons why - when we first met. He was clear form the very beginning where I stood with this...
I always said to him that IF he was feeling as if he was going to cheat that he end it with me first - I couldn't take the deceit and betrayal. I am not sure whether this actually happened or not but he certainly ended things.....and OW has appeared...
I guess what I am saying is that my pain , whilst not unique is doubly felt because of our discussions about this very issue - and his emphatic promise to never put me through it...
mmmm
x

No, you would not go to this thread to begin a new one. You will need to go to the first page of the MLC Forum. At the top you will see two tabs: New Topic or or Forum Options. Click on New Topic and the you post your new Topic/Subject Title and begin posting your responses.

If you want to link your old thread, then go to the old thread and copy and past the thread's browser address into the new one as a posting.

Innis,

I can really identify with this:

Quote:

I guess what I am saying is that my pain , whilst not unique is doubly felt because of our discussions about this very issue - and his emphatic promise to never put me through it...

My H and I were friends since we were kids. He was my best friend when my dad left my mom for his secretary. This was a line I never, ever, ever thought my H would cross because he saw the pain and consequences it caused me. I never thought he would consider doing something so similar to me or our children. But, he did. And, I'm not sure he sees it as the same as what my dad did. God help him when/if it ever sinks in--the pain he caused us.

Quote:

So - I explained to WAP just what this issue meant to em and the reasons why - when we first met. He was clear form the very beginning where I stood with this...
I always said to him that IF he was feeling as if he was going to cheat that he end it with me first

So.....you thought that just saying this to him, would negate the fact that he already had a HISTORY of cheating in his marriage? And was still "friends" with the woman he cheated with?

Actions speak louder than words. You SAID you didn't want to be cheated on again - but chose a man who was high risk to do just that. Why do you think that was?

Wow. Good question K. REALLY good questions.