Greetings to Newbies, Grizzled Vets, and TheBadlanders,
Once upon time….heh…never mind.
As promised, I am going to post some information, insights, and incidents that highlight some of the key signposts of my personal journey into MLC. With recollection and recall years after my MLC, some information may not appear in sequential order as the onset of my MLC occurred with the death of my paternal grandmother in 1999 and ended sometime around the Spring 2004.
Will strive make every attempt to pull together snippets of details, information, and storylines over the course of next several weeks that represents the Wonky Wonka MLC Starship aka the U.S.S. Wonkie Enterprise in the best and worst possible way.
A good starting point would be reading the below link to the onset of the MLC journey:
Informal Poll: Onset of MLC I will gladly [sometimes not] take questions and inquires from the hoi polloi and answer them in the best Wonka fashion. There's no guarantee that they will make sense.
Let's rock n'roll!!!!
Awesome. Because you a mentor to me, I am ok with you answering on my thread for continuity, or here... your choice, but I really appreciate your opening the doors to your MLC experience.
Questions:
1-Is there any way for a LBS to know if BD, AP, etc... is part of a life crisis or just simply BD and AP, no crisis included?
2-At any point in MLC Wonka, did you "know" you were in it? Or did self-eval bring you clarity? Did Mrs. Wonka ever think or vocalize those questions? If so, did it make you mad?
I feel like it's easy to "protect" our spouse behavior with the diagnosis of MLC, I know I am guilty of that. "Abducted by Aliens" etc... Did you, in the wave of it all, ever realize what you were in? I guess that's my question.
The Event
Before I go into detail on the event that precipitated the MLC journey, I need to furnish some background information beforehand so you will understand better the dynamics between Ms. Wonka and I prior to the event.
Ms. Wonka and I knew each other only superficially as undergraduates at a college we both attended. It consisted mainly of “hi, hello” as we passed by each other on campus. Coincidentally, we both entered graduate school during the same year. I had worked two years prior to entering graduate school and Ms. Wonka went straight to grad school after graduation.
We began dating in the Fall of 1994. In total, we had been together for 5 years before MLC hit me in May of 1999 and we already were puppy parents to our dog and cat that had been raised since 8 weeks old in 1996.
In the early Spring of 1999, Ms. Wonka and I traveled to Europe in what was our first overseas trip as a couple. Her parents, sister and BIL all joined us on the trip. We spent the first 3 days in Amsterdam before we split to go our separate ways. Ms. Wonka and I traveled Western Europe for 12 days while the other group went to France. It was a very happy period for Ms. Wonka and I taking in some amazing cultural experiences with some hot randy stuff in between. At the end of the trip, we met up again in Amsterdam to fly back to the States.
After returning back from Europe in mid-March 1999, I returned to my office to prepare for a regional "Brainaic" tourney for high schoolers that preceded the national competition that the college, for whom I was working for at that time, was the primary host. FUN!
All’s well in my happy little world with Ms. Wonka.
Then one day I get a call in my office in late April 1999 that informed me of my paternal grandmother’s passing away. That left me utterly and profoundly shocked to the core despite the fact that I ‘knew’ intellectually it was her time since her mind and body had gone south at the age of 97.
Very slowly I got up from my desk and walked out of the building without any memory of how my legs moved that day. I walked and walked and walked around the campus bathed in the afternoon sun trying to get grips on my inner world that seemed to inexorably spin out of control. My whole system seemed to slowly shut down---one by one.
A few days after the phone call, my grandmother’s funeral (early May 1999) took place with all of her extended family members as she was the family matriarch in which my cousins acted as the pall bearers. I did not attend her funeral because of work obligations due to the fact that I was the primary project investigator in coordinating a large scale project for a K-12 educational institution that entailed a comprehensive program review of that particular school that included running focus groups of students, school personnel and administration.
To say I was utterly lost at that time is an understatement. Growing up, I frequently visited my grandparents and would sometimes stay over their house during the weekends. My grandmother and I had an exceptionally close bond. At the time of my grandmother’s death, my grandfather had already preceded her in death by 10 years.
This was my first, real deep loss in my life.
I was aged 32.
RealityTrip (RT),I will continue to post in your thread...never fear, m'dear!
1-Is there any way for a LBS to know if BD, AP, etc... is part of a life crisis or just simply BD and AP, no crisis included?
It can be difficult at times to distinguish the difference between a simple WAS and MLCer. To me, what differentiates a person who is a WAS from a MLCer is in the eyes. The MLCer is lost with vacant eyes and demonstrates visible memory loss as in Swiss cheese. As for the WAS, they're fed up, overwhelmed and plain angry so they walk away. MLCer's thought process is on the blinker which is manifested in illogical thinking and irrational behaviors.
As far as OWs/OMs are concerned, it is not 100% given that the MLCer will have one. Whereas, the WAS will MOST certainly have an OM/OW in the picture. 2-At any point in MLC Wonka, did you "know" you were in it? Or did self-eval bring you clarity? Did Mrs. Wonka ever think or vocalize those questions? If so, did it make you mad?
Nope. How can we know or have any insight that what we were experiencing is MLC?? As with 99.9% of the population, I bought into the old cliche that MLC is when old men want to buy red Ferrari's and have sex with 20-somethings. Nor did Ms. Wonka ever think that I had MLC...very much doubt it.
As for the clarity part, it was a process that did not include any self-awareness. It was as if I rode out in the deep ocean on a boat and encountered a heavy mist that engulfed me. That was MLC to me. At some point, the fog lifted from me and I started to notice my surroundings...that is the first sign that a person is leaving the MLC--what people term here "leaving the tunnel."
I am not clear on what you mean by Ms. Wonka vocalizing questions and if that made me mad. Can you please give me some examples so I can answer them better? I feel like it's easy to "protect" our spouse behavior with the diagnosis of MLC, I know I am guilty of that. "Abducted by Aliens" etc... Did you, in the wave of it all, ever realize what you were in? I guess that's my question. smile
Again, I had ZERO knowledge or awareness that I was dab smack in the middle of MLC. During my infrequent bouts of lucidity, I told Ms. Wonka about 1-2 months after BD that "something is wrong with me", "I'm not the bad guy here." I felt suffocated and felt like someone had invaded me. The sense of not being in control was very strong in me at that time.
this is fascinating Wonka, thank you for willing to do this, it will help me to process. I sometimes wonder if H is actually in a MLC or if it's me thinking he is as a way to understand.......I have seen many posters mention that their spouse will mention "something is wrong with me" and, to my knowledge, H vehemently denies it with a "there's nothing wrong with me!". I wonder if it has more to do with his family's view on depression and other mental illnesses?
I look forward to the info you post.....
"The MLCer is lost with vacant eyes and demonstrates visible memory loss as in Swiss cheese".
That is ^^^^ superb. I remember exw looking like this. Her answer to many of my questions were "I didn't know what else to do but file". When she filed she said that I didn't need a L, was to pay child support, alimony, sell the house with me in it, and she would ride into the sunset on her horse. After we divorced and I bought the house from her she feaked. The mortgage people were about to call the police due to her behavior on the day she signed the lease over to me. Keep posting Wonka really good stuff.
This is all very interesting Wonka. I appreciate you starting this. I will be following along.
Whiterose, I agree with you about my H also. I have gone back and forth on the MLC thing. Mine has never mentioned ever feeling off or anything being wrong with him like so many others say their MLC's do. Mine just insists life is perfect yet does the most bazaar things.
Any thoughts on this?
<3 this! Thank you so much Wonka
I bought into the old cliche that MLC is when old men want to buy red Ferrari's and have sex with 20-somethings
For perspective and to further dispel the myth, I've wanted both of those things since I was 13. Still do. Not sure that qualifies me for MLC though. I think it just makes me normal
I told Ms. Wonka about 1-2 months after BD that "something is wrong with me", "I'm not the bad guy here." I felt suffocated and felt like someone had invaded me. The sense of not being in control was very strong in me at that time.
Heard those statements several times before. I think that's what kept me holding on for as long as I did and trying to "help".
I'm glad you decided to post this, Wonk. Interested to hear "the rest of the story".
Peace,
AJ
Mine was battling with it for almost a year before the actual move out. I was seeing it, but just figured he would work it out. Prior to that he was in denial, and doing things to nest. That is why it was such a shock. He spent 11,000.00 on redoing our family room.
What guy does that when he wants to leave?
Anyhoo fast forward, now it as if he's doing the "what the logical next step is supposed to be "...Kind of like what happens after you've been dating someone seriously.
The logical step is ...we're a couple, we get engaged, we get married...
He's doing that now, he ran away, now he thinks it's time to do a separation agreement or property agreement.
I can then see him thinking it's time to divorce...it ia all so surreal.
Since we've been together for over 33 years as a couple, everything I read says they take the longest to wake up.
I know he wants a " life partner ". So that will be the "next step" after the big D?
I'm just trying to get support and save the house. Divorce busting along the way. My only contact has been about bills , and in e-mails.
It is so much easier this way. He has no bravery, so he will not call.
thanks Wonka, this will continue to be an interesting thread.
Wow, great thread.
I don’t think it would be normal if we didn't wonder whether or not our spouse is in MLC. I know I still do sometimes.
For months after her Mom died, the smallest trigger would cause my W to cry. Quite odd coming from a woman who prior to this almost never cried. When I asked her what was wrong, she told me
“I don’t know, I can’t explain it”, which I believe was a truthful answer.
At some point, the fog lifted from me and I started to notice my surroundings...that is the first sign that a person is leaving the MLC--what people term here "leaving the tunnel."
How gradual or quickly was the process of the fog lifting for you?
I question my H’s MLC all the time. I don’t remember him having vacant eyes per se. He was a bit withdrawn and he did have some memory issues, but I thought it was age related. I had some memory issues tool, so for me his memory loss was not that obvious. He did fit into the WAS description, he was fed up, angry and overwhelmed in our M. At the same time there was no known OW. Still is not. So, I’m just getting more and more confused about how MLC applies to my H.
This is a great thread though. Wonka, thanks for starting it. Hopefully I will learn a lot of things here, and hopefully I will be able to see more clearly what applies in my sitch.
Great thread Wonka! I also wonder if my husband is true mlc or was. He fits both and I don't remember anything about his eyes. I guess it really doesn't matter since he is filing this month. I can honestly say I tried and hung in there.
Wonka did you blame your unhappiness on Ms Wonka? Did you tell her you were never happy and she didn't treat you right? That is what my h says to me. I really don't believe this is true but he is very convinced. We have been married 26 years and he has said that he has been unhappy for most of them and he stayed so long for the kids but he should have left earlier.
I am anxiously waiting for your posts.
Interesting Wonka. I really appreciate your perspective on how you felt... that you really were THAT confused and felt out of control of yourself. It is hard to really believe that is the case sometimes when the MLC seems to be able to pull it together to function in other aspects of their life, but can't seem to make the logical or reasonable choice when it comes to the family or relationship with the spouse anymore.
I am not so sure about the eyes being the answer...I believe it is the presence of confusion as well. The feeling of being overwhelmed.
Mine described it as a huge "cloud of jumbled up ..." couldn't even finish is sentence. He was torn between his love and hurt, which came out as anger. Yes, I saw the eyes...especially at Thanksgiving. It was clear, he also had aged tremendously.
After that there was NO doubt in my mind.
what did you feel about time? Did you feel that you were running out of time?
we all are of course...
The First MLC Antic/Incident
Approximately about a month after my grandmother's funeral which took place in early May 1999, I went into deep mourning privately. It was during this time that I slowly fell apart emotionally and spinning out of control. To assuage that sense of helplessness and discombobulation in any manner, I sat down and composed a letter.
Just prior to leaving for a business trip, I handed the letter to my boss in the office before taking off. [Right now, I am feeling jabs of pain as I recall this memory] The letter professes my admiration and attraction to my boss. Yep, that's right. I've crossed a line professionally and entered into forbidden territory at the workplace!! It probably was riddled with silly MLC mumbo jumbo.
That was the beginning of a fractious relationship between my boss and I. Mind you, my then boss was a lesbian and happily married to her wife. To balance out this narrative, my boss was a real life Dragon Lady who was very much into micromanagement and negative put-downs. She had already burned through 3 employees in a year before I had come on board. In retrospect, I should have run for the hills as she was a very deeply unhappy person [and is still the same unhappy person to this day].
To summarize, I write a letter to woman outside of my marriage thereby breaking the unspoken commitment to one's spouse. Emotionally I was trying to grasp at straws to prevent myself from drowning in my own grief. That was the first sign that my own coping skills was starting to break down very slowly and imperceptibly.
I am going to answer questions/comments previously posted from the posters here.
WR: When an MLCer says that "there's nothing wrong with me", they genuinely believe it which is typical MLC-speak. I recall when things were awry with Ms. Wonka sometime after the early stages of my MLC, she came home one day with a brand-new book
Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil determined to help our R, my reaction was typical non-denial and pooh-poohed her. In my mind, I am not the problem so why should Ms. Wonka point fingers at me?
Rick: Wow. What an extreme reaction from your XW to signing the house lease over to you. It shows that she was truly and utterly broken.
Mojo: You ask how the MLCer claim that they're okay while exhibiting bizzare behaviors. Does the
The Emperor Without Clothes remind you of the MLCer a bit? In the MLCer's worldview, we all think we're operating normally even outwardly the spouse notices strange comments, behaviors, actions, and antics. Again, this is part and parcel of the impaired thinking process that manifests outwardly in illogical reasoning and irrational behaviors.
Raine: Right back at ya...my partner in crime!
AJ: As for your perked ears in reading the "rest of my story", are you the type of person that peeks at the last page of the novel before reading it?
Ambi: MLCers do normal everyday things by going through the motions. That is UNTIL the pressure becomes too much and they take off hence the BD to get away from the source of misery which, unfortunately, is you. More on this later.
FY: You ask if the fog lifting was gradual or fairly quick in my case. I started to come out of the MLC fog sometime around March 2004. Like a typical fog one sees in real life, it dissipated gradually.
I am of the firm belief that there was some type of "intervention" in my MLC Journey. In December 2003, I flew home for the Christmas holidays. A few days after arrival, I became very, very sick and had an horrible asthma attack (a second one in so many years). My father literally had to carry me into the ER at the hospital for treatment. I believe it was the beginning of the "end"---I started to wake up and notice my surroundings. That included attempts to get Ms. Wonka to end her affair with the OW.
sighBright: You and others question if 'this' or 'that' is MLC or not. Let me tell you that MLC is individualistic with each person's personality, mannerisms, family histories, and coping mechanisms to take into account. MLC falls on two end spectrums which are: kitty kitten MLCers and Jekyll/Hyde. They represent the two extremes of the MLCer in their anger levels.
Complicated: In my MLC-addled mind, I blamed Ms. Wonka for my overall general unhappiness as she was the visible and tangible symbol of my misery. We live in a tangible world so in our mind...why could we be so unhappy all of sudden? We are twirling around trying to locate the source of our unhappiness. Lo and behold! There's the spouse standing right there.
Have I ever verbalized my unhappiness to Ms. Wonka. No. That is the hard part for me right now. A rational person would discuss issues or situations to seek out solutions with their spouse...right? While in the midst of MLC, on the other hand, we feel immense pressure from within that we've got to get OUTTA here now!! Bombs away and we're outta the door emotionally [and some physically]. Didja know that I did contemplate renting an apartment myself? Yep, I did.
It is never about YOU at all. It is all on US.Sometime in the Summer of either 1999 or 2000, our sex life took a drastic nose dive which was when Ms. Wonka walked in the door one day with her brand-new
Relationship Rescue book. Bless her heart, Ms. Wonka knew something was badly wrong in the R and tried to help us by "fixing" it.
TL: You ask how can MLCers function. We are just going through the motions by pushing ourselves forward despite the underlying unhappiness, discomfort, and pressure. That's why we appear so "normal" at times to you.
WBW: I apologize for not getting to you in the recent post. Whoops-a!
To us, life does flash by us and we feel no self-worth and feel that we have not accomplished a dang thing in our life. That is the faulty thinking of the MLCer. We may have the best house, best car, best job, and a spouse who looks like Cindy Crawford/George Clooney...BUT here we are engaged in "stinking thinking."
For many of us who feel like life passed by, we engage in a lot of replay behaviors with OWs/OMs. We need that ego boost from external sources. Which is why it is imperative to use the time you have wisely to wait out the MLC nonsense.
We do stupid, crazy and reckless stuff just because we are not thinking rationally at all.
Thank you for starting this thread Wonka, and sharing your personal experiences.
No matter where we are at on our journey, this is very valuable information!
Hey Wonka,
Did you pull away from your family of origin? If you did , when, for how long, and when did you find your way back? In your mlc mind, at the time, why did you withdraw from them?
Wonka, thanks for the answers. I have a couple more questions.
Were you determined to end your R with Ms. Wonka when you were in MLC?
When you discovered that Ms. Wonka had an OW, were you already coming out of the tunnel, or this event actually prompted you to wake up from the fog?
Read the end of the book first?!?? What? Me??? I neve... well, there was this one time in band camp...
You know what's interesting to me, Wonka? You. You know what else is interesting to me? Reading your statements help me to be more compassionate, if that's possible. It really does help to read your journey, even if that's not why you took it.
Heck, you might have done it just for me. But on the off chance you didn't, thank you for sharing.
AJ
TVS: Sure thing, my friend.
Ambi: 'Did you pull away from your family of origin? If you did , when, for how long, and when did you find your way back? In your mlc mind, at the time, why did you withdraw from them?'Not sure if I understood the first question correctly. Are you asking if I was scared by my FOO issues? Is that right? Or are you asking me if I pulled away from my family and friends?
When the alien swapping furry friend shows up in the MLCer mind, depression sets in so they withdraw from friends, family, interests, and hobbies. It is because we can't deal with other people's emotions and thoughts. It is too overwhelming for us to handle/process...remember our thought process is impaired and/or broken during this journey. This is why oftentimes you see us pulling away from you the LBS.
Please keep in mind that during this process, we do not have conscious awareness that all of this is directly tied to our unresolved issues in childhood/young adult years. We just don't know and are not able to connect our dots because we don't think rationally at all. So to expect us to have some recognition of this correlation is a fallacy. We are too busy running away from ourselves. To have the time for reflection and introspection is not high on our agenda.
It is not until we leave the tunnel that we do notice our surroundings and slowly integrate our scattered selves into one whole person. For some MLCers, it unfortunately does not happen at all...i.e. Beatrice and Job's XHs. They are truly lost in the wild badlands with tumbleweeds blowing asunder.
My MLC started to get quite heavy in the Fall of 2002 and lasted until the end of 2003--this was the period when I pretty much withdrew from family, friends and interests. I started to 'come out' of the foggy tunnel sometime around March 2004. The re-integration began afterward slowly and surely. This process was somewhat turbo charged when I joined the DB site in October 2004. I fully know that I am one of the few very, very lucky reformed MLCers.
Does this answer your questions? Bright: 'Were you determined to end your R with Ms. Wonka when you were in MLC?'When my own MLC began in 1999, I was deep in grief over the loss of my grandmother and I frankly stumbled blindly trying to grab onto to something. This is when I began to stray out of the relationship by talking inappropriately with other women and friends. Yes, I was seeking a way out of the relationship at a subconscious level without any full self-awareness of what's happening. Please keep in mind that there were times that Ms. Wonka and I were sexually and emotionally intimate. Heck, that had to be massively confusing to Ms. Wonka.
'When you discovered that Ms. Wonka had an OW, were you already coming out of the tunnel, or this event actually prompted you to wake up from the fog?'This exact part was a very, very complicated and messy process for both of us. Since I dropped the BD bomb on Ms. Wonka's birthday in May of 2003, she and I pretty much, for all intents and purposes, were 'over' as a couple. It was sometime in the Summer of 2003 that Ms. Wonka sought support from a friend and I recall telling Ms. Wonka "I'm glad you are seeking support with OWName." I believe they did not get into an EA until sometime in the Fall of 2003 which most likely turned into PA sometime in the Winter (I believe it was sometime in February 2004 when OW flew to visit with Ms. Wonka by staying with friends' house).
Sadly, this A of and itself did not wake me up from the MLC fog. However, when the fog did lift in March 2004, I could see very clearly what was happening and I tried my darnest to tell Ms. Wonka to break things off with the OW. As you know, Ms. Wonka was already deep into the OW dopamine...tough to break it at the early stages.
This is one of the several what-ifs I struggle with at times to this day...but it is what it is. shrug
AJ,
I was busy composing my answers when your post came through.
Eh...you flatter yourself a bit much. Maybe if you bribe me with some good quality amaretto...I
may admit that I
possibly do close my eyes and think of you when I come here in my own thread.
Helping you be more compassionate...oh goodie! There's a beating heart inside of you, AJ.
AJ sounds like Jeffrey Dommer. Shall we get him a blender?
So, I guess the next question that should be asked: What was Ms Wonka's take on your recent journey? I know she was looking for comfort elsewhere. I suspect you may have told her to get away and seek that comfort - did you and did she?
A heart? I seriously doubt that I have one of those, but I'm still on my journey to see the Wizard and he'll give me one
AJ
P.S. I did not know there were various qualities of Amaretto. Not my thing, but it just didn't occur to me. I'll take note and be sure to keep a bottle around in case.
Wonka dear, thank you for starting this thread. You know I have a whole file of all of the Wonka-isms you wrote to keep me sane, and get me to this place of strength. I love you (but I'm not in love with you).
PS I read that Ms. Wonka surprised you with a text on New Years! What's up with THAT! You know I have never lost hope for you two.
Sadly, this A of and itself did not wake me up from the MLC fog. However, when the fog did lift in March 2004, I could see very clearly what was happening and I tried my darnest to tell Ms. Wonka to break things off with the OW. As you know, Ms. Wonka was already deep into the OW dopamine...tough to break it at the early stages.
This is one of the several what-ifs I struggle with at times to this day...but it is what it is. shrug
Hi, Wonka. I stumbled across this post tonight as I am in the midst of a bad case of what-if-ism. My WAW is home, crushed and beating herself up over a pretty torrid 6-mo affair that ended quite spectacularly (I need to update my sitch on the forum for those who aren't my FB friends!). Anyway, after the dust settled a part of me really believes I could have run OM off pretty easily right at the start if I'd called W's bluff on her never speaking to me again if I contacted him in any way (he was someone I had hired to work on the house we were supposed to be moving into).
W had quite a sexual awakening during the A - with me she was always reserved and uninterested and some things that were quite taboo were enthusiastically pursued with OM. After it became clear it was only about the sex for him, she was pretty devastated and outed the A to his SO and then karma really went to work on all involved.
Anyway, I'll have this what-if on my mind... probably forever. My comforting thought is that I probably wouldn't have done the work on myself that I've done during this time. It's our second time on this ride and last time we went right back to our old ways and piecing went out the windows.
Alright, alright...class...stop picking your nose...hey you, stop pulling Linda's pigtails. Rick, I saw you passing that note in the back row...give it up to me or it'll be straight to Principal Job's office. Rick: Go right ahead and get AJ his special blender for HVD. From yours truly!
AJ: Not sure what you mean by Ms. Wonka's take on my "recent" journey. Which parts of the journey are you talking about here? How recent?
In no shape, fashion, manner, hook, line, sinker....heh...mixing up my metaphors...ahem...did I ever tell Ms. Wonka to seek comfort with anyone. No less with the OW!
Perish that thought, AJ! I did express to Ms. Wonka that I was glad she had someone to talk to and I did say this to her..."we'll get through this somehow." That line was during one of my once-in-a-blue-moon lucid moments.
Linda: Ok, ok...got my first ILYBINLWY speech here. I think I can...ha...hand...handle this!
sharp intake of breath I got my big girl pants on!
Yep, I got a HNY text from Ms. Wonka. And I know that she will send another one soon when my birthday comes around. Another thought is that I think you are an incurable, sentimentalist romantic. Yes, you, you...a mushy romantic who probably watches
An Affair To Remember over and over in a darkened room with a box of Klennex in her lap.
MileHigh: Glad to see you stumbling right in here...you've come to the right FUN House!
I have a question for you. Did W's 'sexual awakening' help with your sex life at all? Just curious.
As for the what-ifs, we all have our what-ifs about many things in life. Some we wish for do-overs. But then again, without this, we would to not have the opportunity to do some crucible purging that helps us achieve greater clarity about our forward path. This is something I thank Ms. Wonka for at the most basic level even though I
could do without the OW and all that attendant crap.
What Did I Do During The Summer of 1999
My rational, logical human mind starts to crumble down into clumps of spliced atoms, protons, and neutrons misfiring in all directions that is scientifically termed as 'impaired synapses'.
Maybe a nano-sized Wonkie Enterprise ship flew into my head one night when I was deep in slumber next to Ms. Wonka and I woke up with this mysterious disease called "MLC". Who knows!
The walls I've erected around my relationship with Ms. Wonka starts to come down when I began to foolishly talk about "problems" with Ms. Wonka and I was fishing for a way to get out of it. Talking to women here and there. At a subconscious level, I think that I was seeking some type of escape from my own MLC-induced misery. Previously, I was very protective of Ms. Wonka and only spoke of her in glowing terms in our circle of friends. Mind you....the fog in 1999 was not as heavy as it was in 2002. More like a spray from the garden hose that kids run and jump over in the backyard.
Our sex life started to drop but not yet reached an alarming level. Intimacy was present but not at the levels prior to May 1999. I was engaged in every day life activities and carried out my responsibilities.
Outwardly I appeared 'normal' in every category: emotional, mental, memory-wise, sexually. However, there were some hiccups along the way.
I was asking more along the lines of what did she see and think about your behavior? She thought something was wrong, but anything else?
That line was during one of my once-in-a-blue-moon lucid moments.
Curious. What did you say when you were not so lucid? Maybe during a harvest moon or something?
Outwardly I appeared 'normal' in every category: emotional, mental, memory-wise, sexually. However, there were some hiccups along the way.
It's been my experience that those that have gone through the tunnel are more "sensitive" to people hiding their emotional, mental, memory, sex drive, etc "masks". I know my ex's uncle mentioned he thought there was something different about her a few years prior to BD. Of course that was hindsight on his part, but he's "sensitive" to such things
Could you have been spotted by somebody at that time? Anyone ever come forward and say something about that?
And why would it have been foolish to talk to Ms Wonka about your problems? Who should you have talked to about such things?
AJ
Still following along Wonka my dear. Thanks for sharing. I'm learning so much.:)
Wonka thank you for sharing this with us. I am reading along. Listening and taking note in the back of the class..
Wonka recently a coworker decided to leave her H. I don't know her too well other than she just turned 40. She came into my office and said that she decided to leave him, that she was young and vibrant. That she was stagnant in the M. That she wanted to experience life. She does have children. She is in process of divorcing him and she left with the kids all in a matter of months. When she speaks to me It reminds of when someone is about to commit suicide. They are happy and focused. They have this sense of relief. But I think the opposite is true.
It's funny to see that side of it, isn't it Rick? The next part up in that process is for her come up with "reasons" why she needs to leave him. Why she married the wrong person
I did actually think my ex was suicidal when she did this kind of thing. It was interesting to watch to say the least.
AJ
AJ it's very interesting now that my head is out for air. Yeah, this is very recent for her. Talks about all the fun she is having to other coworkers and how great her life is right now. She is actually kind of cocky if you ask me. It reminds me of exw during the beginning of my stich. When I was begging and pleading and negotiating I asked her How you gonna pay for the horse, the house the new Honda Pilot. She said "I will just have to work harder". Ex does make a lot of money but not enough to pay for her hobby. Sadly my D turned 17 end of December. I asked her if was getting the PS4. She said no, that it cost too much and her mom didn't have the money. Sadly I'm broke too. The fun does go away.
Not to hijack the thread (hi Jack) but...
I don't know that the fun goes away. It changes. It heavily impacts the kids - that cannot be avoided although we are obligated to minimize it.
I also don't know that cocky is the way I would describe that. It seems more like a peacock to me when I see it. Kind of like, "Look. I'm happier now. Look at me and how happy I am now that I left that dead weight."
What goes up...
AJ
When I asked Smokey if the pain goes away when he is doing his "partying," he said, "It never goes away, even when I was on vacation with OW."
Is that him telling me what I want to hear? Or does the Peacock walk around with a shallow happiness? The kind that isn't real and only gives the illusion of being happy. Is the peacock strutting simply for our benefit and collapses once others aren't around?
Heather. If the pain never goes away, what's your thought on that question?
I doubt somebody would lie about something like that.
AJ
AJ,
If I were looking at the statement with an open mind, as someone who didn't have a history with this person, I'd feel very sad for this person.
I guess I would see someone trying to run from himself and not finding a cure for what ails him.
I can't let that sympathy, however, deter me from my path. I have learned a hard lesson, after beating my head until it's bloody...I can't fix what ails him. But, perhaps neither can OW or the drugs or a vacation, job change, move, new toothbrush or lack of messy kids.
Heather,
I can tell you that a friend of my parents who was depressed used to tell them depression was like a headache that would never go away. Nothing you did made it feel better. He had a great wife, job and kids. I have to believe that your H is depressed.
I know your H probably blames you as mine does me. He supposedly is filing this month because he has realized he has not been happy for a very long time (he has been depressed for several years) and he said there have been things about me he has been unhappy with for about our whole marriage, 26 years. And we dated 2 years prior.
Of course one of my answers is you haven't really been around me for the last several years.
Is your H on any medication or doing any counseling? It sounds like he needs it if he's not.
My parent's friend who I knew very well myself eventually committed suicide. For me, I never knew he was depressed. He was a very jolly guy with a lot of friends. But I guess inwardly he had a lot of demons and my parents were very close to him and knew he was never really happy.
I hope the best for your H. He has to like him self and be happy before he can feel something for someone else in my opinion.
I always thought too that when they have affairs they can't like themselves too much. How could they?
Hey Wonka!!! Where have you been? We've been anxiously waiting for another installment of Wonkaland!
You have been very gracious to let us inside the head of a former mlcer. Thanks for that.
Hey, hey...let's chill a bit here. I am going AWOL from this thread for the long weekend because it's my birthday and I bet the Kent Farm that Ms. Wonka will text me wishing me HBD.
Please don't wreck the community outdoor fire pit while I'm away...'k?! Thanks much.
P.S. Complicated, if you want another installment of Wonkaland. I'll give you a mini one here and now. I am using DBing skills on Ms. Wonka and my hot gal, Cass.
rolling eyes
Hippity Hoppity B'thirthday!!!
Ohhh, goody. B-day spanking time!
Happy Birthday Wonka! Hope you have a great one and you get that text. Good Luck with the dbing.
Happy Birthday! Enjoy your special day.
hope it was a great bday!1
re voyage...while in your MLC fog, did any friends reach out to you to try and snap you out of it, question you on what the hell you were doing? and your reaction if so??
I'm back! First things first, I am bummed that my beloved Pats got beaten by the Broncos. Had to eat a bunch of humble pies along the way. Ms. Wonka did send me a HBD text and we engaged in playful ribbing on the Broncos vs. Pats game as she's a Broncos fan. In the birthday greeting, Ms. Wonka was unusually perky and joking.
Hi Wonka,
How old are you? Ha! Have a wonderful birthday year! Happy Belated Wonka Day!
Autosignature...Ms. Wonka
She's more and more comfortable with calling me by my name. Also playful during the game...after the game was over...I said gotta hand it to Manning and she said A win is a win! We knew that already! :-)
Interesting indeed.
Answering questions from Wonkaland ClassAJ:I was asking more along the lines of what did she see and think about your behavior? She thought something was wrong, but anything else? That's a good question that needs to be put to Ms. Wonka. We won't ever know...will we?
sigh I am sure she was mystified and baffled by my MLC behaviors. This, again, is one of those
what-if questions I have about Ms. Wonka doing research and figuring out that I had MLC. I'd like to think that would have made her a Stander. Who knows.
What did you say when you were not so lucid? Maybe during a harvest moon or something?Something like that! Actually, I am able to recall only three lucid moments that consisted of the following quotes to Ms. Wonka:
'Something's wrong with me.' 'I'm not the bad guy here.' 'I'm glad you are getting support from OWName. We'll get through this somehow.'It's been my experience that those that have gone through the tunnel are more "sensitive" to people hiding their emotional, mental, memory, sex drive, etc "masks". I know my ex's uncle mentioned he thought there was something different about her a few years prior to BD. Of course that was hindsight on his part, but he's "sensitive" to such things wink Could you have been spotted by somebody at that time? Anyone ever come forward and say something about that? We're pretty darn good with the masks. I did my share with the general public and others outside of the marital home. I think none of them were the wiser except Ms. Wonka. Nope...no one said anything to my face. They were probably uncomfortable...just a guess. Again, as I stated on Linda's previous threads, I hated having 1, 236 eyeballs on me judging every movement I made. To a certain degree, our paranoia is a bit more magnified during the MLC fog. Silly in retrospect.
And why would it have been foolish to talk to Ms Wonka about your problems? Whoops-a! To clarify, "foolish to talk about problems with Ms. Wonka
to outsiders." That's what I was talking about originally. Thanks for pointing it out, AJ.
RT: Still following along Wonka my dear. Thanks for sharing. I'm learning so much.:)
You're welcome to disembark from the USS Wonkie Enterprise at anytime! I accept refunds.
Busting: Wonka thank you for sharing this with us. I am reading along. Listening and taking note in the back of the class..Hiya...I am sure your notebook is three miles thick!
Rick:They are happy and focused. They have this sense of relief. But I think the opposite is true.We MLCers are quite adept at putting on masks during the MLC fog and speak in tongues. But truly, truly...we're struggling and drowning in our misery internally. Don't believe chit we spout proclaiming "we're much happier...blah blah" from the high mountain. That high mountain is an ant hill that baby ants learn to harvest food in Ant 101 class.
AJ: I also don't know that cocky is the way I would describe that. It seems more like a peacock to me when I see it. Kind of like, "Look. I'm happier now. Look at me and how happy I am now that I left that dead weight."AJ, I think you're the one that has come the closest to a pretty "accurate" assessment of the MLCer thought process here. Pretty bang on.
Heather: When I asked Smokey if the pain goes away when he is doing his "partying," he said, "It never goes away, even when I was on vacation with OW."
Is that him telling me what I want to hear? Or does the Peacock walk around with a shallow happiness?This is one of Smokey's unguarded, candid moments where clarity shoots out of his own mouth. This is the truth. He's not telling you what you want to hear, but what it actually is going on inside him.
Complicated: I always thought too that when they have affairs they can't like themselves too much. How could they? Spot on! Ayep.
You have been very gracious to let us inside the head of a former mlcer. Thanks for that.Curtesying to you in my rad pink tutu.
WBW: while in your MLC fog, did any friends reach out to you to try and snap you out of it, question you on what the hell you were doing? and your reaction if so??Nope. As I mentioned previously, I think people probably felt uncomfortable around me. Also you need to remember that during the heavy fog periods, we pull away from family, friends, and hobbies. So I would imagine it'd be hard for them to see what really went on behind the closed doors. If they ever commented or confronted me, I'd most probably cut them off and think they're crazy. It is never about us that's "wrong." This is why we do silly, crazy, foolish, and reckless stuff. We just don't view things as "right" or "wrong"...remember our empathy chips are crack'd! Make sense?
AJ, Heather, FY, Complicated, Busting, Job, BF, & WBW: Thank you for your wonderful HBD wishes! Now, now...look FY...don't get any far fetched ideas that I'm into DX stuff. Put away that paddle, Mr. Bad Boy!
thanks, good stuff to hear..
AJ, I think you're the one that has come the closest to a pretty "accurate" assessment of the MLCer thought process here. Pretty bang on.
that worries me more than you know, Wonka
Isn't it nice that the teams that are going are both from states that legalized mj and are having a 'superbowl' party ? I know I for one owe a lot of my highschool buddies an apology. They were just ahead of their time on that one...
AJ
Thank you Wonkity Wonk.
I'm glad you had the fun interchange with Ms. Wonka.
Question:
In the day in the life of MLC-Wonk, did you pretty much remain stuck and rigidly convinced you were doing right or did moments of lucidity creep in daily?
And, did you ever feel resigned to your new life-even though the pain didn't go away like you thought it would-like there was simply no way back considering how much hurt had been done to Ms. Wonka?
Smokey seems to be on such a suicide mission--determined to burn every bridge. It's hard for me to imagine him ever making a U-turn.
Just a brief note for those of you who are incurable romantics who still hope that Ms. Wonka and I will 'get back' together.
News Flash!! News Flash!!Ms. Wonka is married to the OW. I haven't snooped in a long, long time and recently came across a YouTube video of Ms. Wonka with a wedding band on her left finger.
Now y'all can finally put your fantasy away for good!
phew...wiping my brow
Well, now I'm depressed. Pooh.
Did you just find this out? Are you suuuuureeee????
Hmmmmm... And sometimes in lesbian land (lifetime resident here
), a band is just a cool ring. I've got one... it spins! But if it was a Wedding video... I give. Otherwise, I might still be starry-eyed for the "alternate" ending. Director's cut if course!
Wonka, I just happened upon this about 40 minutes ago, so first of all, a belated Happy Birthday to you! But I must tell you I think I learned more valuable information about MLCers in those 40 minutes then in the 3 months I have been on this site trying to dissect/glean this knowledge from others. However, it doesn't replace the valuable experience of 'meeting' the people I have corresponded and commisserated with who are unfortunately in this situation as well.
From all of us, a huge THANK YOU for providing this question and answer forum. I, too, look forward to all the insight I hope you can provide us in the near future. So keep it up! This should be saved somewhere on this site as a GREAT source of information and comfort for those LBS's who need to understand how much it really isn't about or because of us.
So thank you for helping me gain more clarity and compassion for what my H is going through even though he will be filing for D any day now.
Here's a question - does 'pride' factor into an MLCer not returning to their spouse even if they think they might be making a mistake by divorcing?
That is a really good question T-Boned. I am really curious about that too.
About 4 nights ago mine lashed out a little and said: "WHAT? Do you WANT me to be wrong (about the OW)? You KNOW me! I would rather DIE than be wrong about anything!" (Yes, it was that dramatic)
And here it is 4 days later and we had an R chat in the kitchen and played computer games together today. It really is remarkable how he seems to be finding a lot more clarity recently, BUT there is that lingering sense that he is having a hard time coming to grips with the idea that he could have made such a big "mistake."
Here's a question - does 'pride' factor into an MLCer not returning to their spouse even if they think they might be making a mistake by divorcing?
I would say in a lot of cases, yes, very much it has a role. My slowly clarifying mlc'er has said as much. And as a guy, I KNOW for the old me, oh hell yes. Big time.
Pride for many MLCers appears to be HUGE. They are not going to admit mistakes.
Quite reasonably the other partner (aka LBS) wants an acknowledgement of pretty dreadful behaviour, and I think it is healthy to do so.
MLCers are damaged people with little 'flexibility' in their make-up - often demanding or perfectionist parents prevented them from being allowed to make mistakes and learn from them in a healthy way, so they have internalised big time, 'Do not make a mistake' So they have even greater difficulty than the rest of us in acknowledging they might have screwed up, and let's face it, it isn't easy even when you are operating from a full deck.
TL, TS2, and Bea,
Thanks for the good insight. Ya, my guy is a stubborn Scotsman to begin with, plus he gets to manage a bunch of 12, 13 and 14 yr olds all day. So he thinks he's pretty much right all the time. Hard to get him to consider he may NOT be right sometimes when dealing with adults.
Sorry, Wonka, for having hijacked a little. What is your take on this?
Answering Questions and CommentsAJ: [quote]AJ, I think you're the one that has come the closest to a pretty "accurate" assessment of the MLCer thought process here. Pretty bang on.
that worries me more than you know, Wonka
Sure, coming from someone who wants a red Ferrari and bedding 20-year olds!!
BTW, it would have been PotBowl if the game was played in either Washington state or Colorado. Alas...NYC will be crawling with cops coming out from its wazoo!
Heather: In the day in the life of MLC-Wonk, did you pretty much remain stuck and rigidly convinced you were doing right or did moments of lucidity creep in daily? Hmmm...this is interesting. Need to be careful how I word my response here. As for the stuck part, I would characterize my internal process as struggling and drowning. Not sure about feeling stuck or remaining stuck. I mean...the fog lifted from my head and I achieved relative clarity. In your case, it seems much more complicated with Smokey having some ongoing addictions that may have hampered his progress...you know him best.
Upon reflection, I am not sure about lucidity creeping in on a daily basis. In fact, my mind was very much muddled during the crisis. Yet, I was able to go through motions every day. It is pretty much a survival instinct for me in getting through each day.
In regard to the concept of "being convinced that I was doing right"...again, my grasp of "right" and "wrong" was very loosey goosey during my crisis as I had my own OW. To be clear, we are not talking about following the laws of the land here. But rather how our empathy chips are broken and we just don't have the full "awareness" of what's going on inside. Which is why we say and do stupid and far fetched things to you. Again, our neutrons are misfiring in all directions.
And, did you ever feel resigned to your new life-even though the pain didn't go away like you thought it would-like there was simply no way back considering how much hurt had been done to Ms. Wonka?Um, I am pretty sure that I didn't feel resigned to my 'new' life. However, I sure as heck didn't like what was happening to me and I wanted to RUN AWAY from every thing as FAR AS POSSIBLE. I did feel enormous pressure with responsibilities after purchasing a new house with Ms. Wonka mixed along with a sense of being let down from the "fairytale."
During the crisis, I saw Ms. Wonka as a beacon shining brightly from the lighthouse and I was comforted with her presence just knowing that she was "there" for me to turn to even if I had withdrawn from her and life in general. Deep, deep inside of me I still loved Ms. Wonka. Emotionally, mentally I wasn't in a position to "give" that to her as I was very, very numb inside. For me, I'd like to think that at some level, I'd find a way to Ms. Wonka somehow. We'll never know the answer now, right.
T-boned: Welcome! You can wander around this FUN house at your own peril!
Here's a question - does 'pride' factor into an MLCer not returning to their spouse even if they think they might be making a mistake by divorcing? From my point of view, it is influenced by several factors such as how much involved in the OW/OM is the MLCer in, their general personality characteristics prior to MLC, and how far along they are in the MLC. A lot of variables indeed! For me, I ask myself frequently if my R with the OW had become a full-blown PA, would I feel that it would be too much for me to "climb down" and return to Ms. Wonka knowing that I ran off with the OW and possibly lived with her. I cannot answer this fully because this experience never happened in my case.
Although I generally agree that we do have some pride at some level. In my view, it is more of paranoia than pride for the MLCer that is more predominant. Again, it depends on the make-up of the individual MLCer. Which is why I emphasize often that while there are some general commonalities across the MLC spectrum, we cannot allow ourselves to paint them with the same broad paintbrush.
TL: About 4 nights ago mine lashed out a little and said: "WHAT? Do you WANT me to be wrong (about the OW)? You KNOW me! I would rather DIE than be wrong about anything!" (Yes, it was that dramatic) Wow. He is very much dug in and invested in his own position. That, to me, is being stuck with that particular POV and having his empathy chip broken.
T: You too? Drinking from the pride koolaid, ugh?
Bea: MLCers are damaged people with little 'flexibility' in their make-up - often demanding or perfectionist parents prevented them from being allowed to make mistakes and learn from them in a healthy way, so they have internalised big time, 'Do not make a mistake' So they have even greater difficulty than the rest of us in acknowledging they might have screwed up, and let's face it, it isn't easy even when you are operating from a full deck.Not all of them. It does seem to appear in most cases. You've raised some good arguments on this point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Folks, please hijack away! This is our community thread and a resource center to learn more about the MLC "disease." I don't own this thread.
Heather and RT, you are mushy myopic, hopeless, starry-eyed romantics. What am I gonna do with the likes of you???!! Ayep, Ms. Wonka is MARRIED. How much more affirmative can I be here? Ms. Wonka is way, way back in the rearview mirror. Plus I have my hot girl, Cass.
Wonka, words cannot describe how helpful the above is to me. Thanks so much.
Maybe Cass is your one true love!!!! That's what I think---NOW. :-)
Wonka,
You never know what the future may hold. I've seen many MLC breakups and remarriages take place and lo and behold, many years later the original spouses are back together and happy as can be...so, Mrs. Wonka may have remarried...but that doesn't mean a thing in today's society when it comes to dealing w/MLC.
No, I'm not a romantic...but pointing out that we can never rule out what destiny has in store for us.
Job,
Nice try...nice save...eh. No dice. Busted!!
ribbing you with my elbow
I'm with Job.
Love is a many splendored thing Wonk!
It can overcome many obstacles.
How do you love Ms. Wonk? Shall you compare her to a summer's day? She art more lovely and more temperate...
I will stop. Hardee Har Har.
But, Job is too a romantic!!!!
I'm gonna put my bet on Job on this one as well. Why? Besides rooting for the underdog, and while you are ensconced with Hot Momma Cass (there's a song in there somewhere), I sense a spark and a light somewhere deep down in ya for Ms Wonka.
I have no doubt it could happen. I'm not so sure that it's going to happen, but I'll err on the side of Job.
No matter how it turns out, I do strongly hope for your and Ms Wonka's reconciliation of the past. Even if you go your sep ways afterward or something else happens, it seems you both would like and benefit from that reconciliation.
Cheers!
AJ
P.S. Ferrari? That's so....80's and 90's. Maserati's baby. Maserati's.
I have to say Wonka I can sense the spark as well...
I want to ask a question from the back of the class...
When you started to become more lucid, is that when you started to learn about MLC? When did you know that you went through a MLC?
Before I answer questions from the class, I need to be honest and transparent here on what's happened in the past few days. I can count on you guys to hold my feet to the fire.
First of all, I must say that I erupted like a volcano this past Saturday. Internally, I had an epic spew against Job. Never in my life had someone slapped my face so hard with three simple words: "We'll see..."
For several months, I was detached with Ms. Wonka and was happy that we were slowly becoming friends after so many years of ice-cold responses and/or non responses. Then I met my hot girl, Cass, who I felt sparks flying instantly between the two of us [a first for me]. When you guys were mooning over the prospect of Ms. Wonka and I getting back together, I was amused and playfully rolled my eyes at you guys' never ending mushy sentimentality.
Then I read Job's comment "We'll see..."...at first, I just smiled at her enigmatic comment. Then I became very, very quiet and pensive staring at the screen. The next few days, I struggled mightly with holding in the self-construct of a person who has moved on bravely and doing a bang on job of it. With those three simple words, Job has created a fissure in my outer shell. Sort of like that early Apple commercial when the guy ran up against the large white/black screen and smashed it with sledgehammer. Poof!! That is what Job did above.
I'm a very strong person and it takes a lot to take me down emotionally. There were sleepless nights and a ton of restlessness since then just turning over those damn three words in my head. Then kaboom! I spewed and spewed at Job with F-bombs and all that crazy jazz this past Saturday.
When the fumes had run out from the epic spew, I asked myself these two questions:
'Wonka, are you really angry with Job for saying these words?'
or
'Are you more angry that that someone lobbed these words at all...not with Job per se?'
Ah, I was not angry at Job. I was angry and very f-ing scared --scratch that...terrified with this fear: Opening up my heart to Ms. Wonka once again and having it smashed into gazillion smithereens A-G-A-I-N.
For the last 3 years or so, I did not permit myself to stray into the emotional territory whereas I would "feel" every emotion associated with kisses, touches, and other intimacy-related activities as if they happened in real-time. I still shove down these "feelings" if they ever appear in my movie-screen head. I remind myself..."The past is over. Past is past. You cannot live in your head. Look forward!"
I don't want Ms. Wonka to cast a long shadow in my life or in my relationships. Oh my goodness, Ms. Wonka was the "third" party in my last relationship with my former GF and she knew it. deep sigh She said "I'm not Ms. Wonka" once or twice. Oh boy, boy. Sometimes I feel it is just easier to leave that door firmly closed with the key thrown far, far away in some ravine with inch-long thorns.
The questions I ask myself are:
Will I ever let down my guard completely?
Will I ever be able to give my heart completely again?
Will I ever feel truly loved by a new partner/spouse?
Frankly, I don't have the answers nor want to delve too deep.
Job, I owe you an apology from my heart for the epic spew at you...even if you were not physically in the room with me. Just the same. xo
Wonka,
You need to take some time and truly look within. The answer to your three questions is yes, however, it will take some time for you to truly heal and be comfortable w/yourself once again. The walls will come down slowly but surely when the time is right.
Be true to yourself first and foremost and the rest of what is to come will follow, i.e., love, life and laughter. It will come but only when you are ready to tear down the walls of protection to your heart.
Now that's growth Wonka. Proud of you. Job is right. The answer to those 3 questions is up to you. It's your choice to make yourself vulnerable again. I was told by a mother of the pain of giving birth. She went to explain why she would do it again and again. I think giving life to a new love is worth the pain.
Wonka, you remind me of the Velveteen Rabbit. You are becoming real. I've often thought of that story as I've watched Smokey move (or sit still) on this journey of his.
It takes a lot of courage to be real.
Turns out Wonkity has a little MUSHY MUSHY MUSHY in her too. :-)
That's a good thing. Jus so we're clear.
I ask myself the same questions. And sometimes I wonder if that shadow of H is going to hang around forever.
Thanks for your post, Wonka. It brings a lot of feelings for me too.
First, happy belated birthday Wonka!
Still reading along, soaking everything in
This really touched me-
"During the crisis, I saw Ms. Wonka as a beacon shining brightly from the lighthouse and I was comforted with her presence just knowing that she was "there" for me to turn to even if I had withdrawn from her and life in general. Deep, deep inside of me I still loved Ms. Wonka. Emotionally, mentally I wasn't in a position to "give" that to her as I was very, very numb inside. For me, I'd like to think that at some level, I'd find a way to Ms. Wonka somehow. We'll never know the answer now, right."
I can feel this in a way from my H. Your words brought tears to my eyes.
Thank you for welcoming us along on your journey. And PS - I am a hopeless romantic, so you better look out! One never does know what the future could bring
Hi Wonka.... I too agree with TVS.. that ^^^^^ is what I feel from my H too.
Thanks for sharing your MLC with me too... I have a MLC question posted earlier on my thread...if you get the chance, I'd love your perspective as to why my H, is stringing me along (undecided if intentional or not). And if you did that as well to Mrs. W .... Did you string her along and keep her at bay, whilst you were figuring yourself out? What advice do you think Mrs. W would give to the LBS of the MLCer? especially on the topic of being baited along.
Thanks again Wonka.... good luck in your journey. May you find happiness and peace ~~~
Magic
Wonka: Thanks for this thread - the discussion of the peacock from you and LoisB struck a chord with me: "I also don't know that cocky is the way I would describe that. It seems more like a peacock to me when I see it. Kind of like, "Look. I'm happier now. Look at me and how happy I am now that I left that dead weight." "
This is SO much the case with my husband, who moved out and within 1 month had my kids staying at his house with the other woman and within 6 weeks, had her move in with him. One of the hardest things I've found to reconcile with whether my husband is WAS or MLC is that he shows no signs of depression - rather, there is a constant way of throwing in my face how happy he is - I might think it was an "I'll show you" response, except that inviting someone to move in with you goes beyond that. If it has anything to do with me at all, it's like he's trying to say "Look, there's no going back: I don't want you at all and it's not just better for me with OW, look how great the kids get along with her too! You're completely superfluous!"
I see also that you yourself still struggle with what your emotions are telling you, just as I am: Thank you for the honesty in your posts!!!
Just a fly-by post as I've been on the road all day today and am close to being brain dead.
Today, Ms. Wonka struck again surprising the heck outta me once again! When I got home, I checked my mailbox (which I haven't in the past few days due to icky weather and traveling). As i was going through mail, I saw a bright, canary-yellow card and the writing seemed vaguely familiar to me. When I scanned the upper left corner at the address, my eyes nearly popped out.
It was a birthday card from Ms. Wonka. A first for her in over 10 years!!! I texted her recently thanking her for the thoughtful gesture and expressed my appreciation.
I almost chuckled under my breath as this thought crawled in my head as I was reading the card:
Did Ms. Wonka sneak away from the OW to go to the local Hallmark store just for me?!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Class, I know you're twitching on the edge of your seats looking out for the next installment of Wacky Wonky Whronicles.
When I'm less brain dead, I'll respond to questions sometime this week.
I know, I know... your ears perked up at the above revelation. Calm down class!!!
Hey Zombie-Wonka. I didn't lose my eyeballs on that. I still maintain she wants reconciliation. Whatever that looks like is yet to be determined, but it doesn't have to mean she wants you back as a lover. Just reconciliation of the past. "Closure" if you will and maybe friendship or who really knows?
Just my $0.02
AJ
Yes, AJ. We are working towards a friendship which is a very good thing.
Are you sure she is married???? Really and truly???
Hi Wonka,
Thanks for your insight - it really is helpful for our sanity.
A few questions from me:
1) Did you think about Mrs. Wonka while you were in the fog? I have heard that MLCers cannot stop thinking about the LBS and children yet act as if they cease to exist. I am wondering if that really is the case. It is hard for me to fathom that my H ever thinks of anyone but himself and the OW.
2) If anyone close to you (family, friends) etc. HAD tried to talk some sense into you, do you think it would have mattered?
3) Did you begin to show signs of duress (physically) at some point during the MLS? My H looks terrible...as if the life is being sucked out of him.
Thanks again for your help!
Hello Wonka..everyone!
Thank you for posting your story and answering questions Wonka! Nice insight into the MLC mind!
Maybe I missed it, as sometimes I am in my own fog, but how long from start to finish did it take for you to navigate the MLC tunnel?
A quick fly-by post:
Our friend, Bluesgal, over in Newcomers has a H who is definitely in MLC. Job, Heather, WR, etc...it would be great if you would stop by her thread to lend support as she's comfy hanging around the Newcomers community pool. Thanks!
I will answer questions posted by the end of this week. Been busy with work setting up a new division in my company and overseeing it.
Calling class back in session from the long winter breakAlrighty...let's get back to the program.
TVS: Another mushy romantic? Have you been drinking from that Kool-Aid punch bowl too? I think I'll need to take away the bowl privileges from the class.
Magic: You have a quite number of good posters on your thread.
'd love your perspective as to why my H, is stringing me along (undecided if intentional or not). And if you did that as well to Mrs. W Never. We are very confused and foggy from the MLC. You hear them say one thing one day, then the next day a different thing. It is all down to MLC confusion. Not a deliberate act of stringing along you. Absolutely not.
What advice do you think Mrs. W would give to the LBS of the MLCer? I don't think at all. Because Ms. Wonka has never been on this site and isn't a DBer. So it is hard for me to even speculate on what her thoughts would be. We'll never know.
DXW:Thanks for stopping by here. As humans, we are emotional creatures. The trick is to recognize them and have a healthy relationship with them. Whatever that may be to you.
Being honest and authentic with ourselves is a difficult path indeed. The added bonus is being able to be self-aware as they crop up. Ohh...the rewards...oh my! Worth it.
MyWay: Hiya! Glad you're here in my class. Didn't you just sneak in quietly without me noticing you at all? Ah...the shy student, heh?
Did you think about Mrs. Wonka while you were in the fog? I have heard that MLCers cannot stop thinking about the LBS and children yet act as if they cease to exist. I am wondering if that really is the case. It is hard for me to fathom that my H ever thinks of anyone but himself and the OW. Yes, I thought about Ms. Wonka often and looked to her for actions. As mentioned earlier, I was depressed and feeling pressure coming at me from all corners of the world. It is due to the pressure itself that we push the LBS away--HARD. We want you guys to get the f*ck out of our faces. You're just one added source of pressure that we don't want or need in our lives. Regarding the OW/OM, it is our drug of choice...dopamine effects that affects our brains thus our actions are out of the ordinary. The saying goes here..."this is a crisis." Yep. Unfortunately, it affects everyone around the MLCer when there's OW/OM involved.
If anyone close to you (family, friends) etc. HAD tried to talk some sense into you, do you think it would have mattered? Please keep in mind that the MLCer withdraws from friends and family. So if they tried to talk to me or talk sense into me, I'd brush them off. I'm not the problem. Also I hated, hated the fact that 1,000 pairs of eyeballs were judging me. We stress here in the MLC forum not to judge, preach, badger or nag the MLCer for it introduces pressure to them. Then they all head back into the tunnel.
Did you begin to show signs of duress (physically) at some point during the MLS? My H looks terrible...as if the life is being sucked out of him.I probably did to some extent. Over Christmas of 2003, I became so physically ill while staying at my parents' house that my father got me in the car and drove me to the emergency room. He had to prop me up a bit as I walked into the emergency room. I'd like to see this as MLC intervention as it, to me, broke the MLC fever for me. The fog started to dissipate and I came out of it around March 2004.
CourageousWife: Glad to see that my thread helps you a bit!
Maybe I missed it, as sometimes I am in my own fog, but how long from start to finish did it take for you to navigate the MLC tunnel?Start of MLC: May 1999
End of MLC: March 2004
Close to 5 years, honey. I bet the length of my MLC tunnel circled the Earth several times over!
Second MLC Incident: Fall 1999My Wonkie Enterprise Ship was flying wobbly all over the place as I struggled with my personal grief and confusion. Obviously I was a newly minted Starship Cadet not a Captain!
I simply went through the motions of day-to-day life and neatly compartmentalized my life in sections (the concept for compartmentalization came from Job over in Shannon's thread).
Over the summer and early fall, relations with my then boss slowly deteriorate to the point where we were barely on speaking terms and avoided each other. Eventually, I was let go sometime in November 1999. A first for me. In retrospect, my MLC fogged thinking affected the relationship with my then boss' P/A tendencies. A perfect recipe for disaster.
Prior to my MLC and my current non-MLC life, I am usually very diplomatic and able to diffuse any potential tense situations. Funny, during my MLC, I was not able to put up with or tolerate my then boss' P/A tendencies. By no means was I overly confrontational with her, but I did call her out on a few occasions. Bad move. Nowadays, I just let people with P/A tendencies go with a smile and walk away.
Magic: You have a quite number of good posters on your thread.
'd love your perspective as to why my H, is stringing me along (undecided if intentional or not). And if you did that as well to Mrs. W
Never. We are very confused and foggy from the MLC. You hear them say one thing one day, then the next day a different thing. It is all down to MLC confusion. Not a deliberate act of stringing along you. Absolutely not.
I wish to add some clarification to the above comment.
In my view and based on what I've read on the MLC Forum, it seems to me that the truly nasty Jekyll/Hyde MLCers do actively string the WAS along with falsehoods, deliberate misleading information, and outright desire to hurt the spouse. Examples that point to this trend are: Beatrice (Bea), WhiteRose (WR), and WishingHoping (WH).
By large and generally speaking, the MLCer does not string you a long with deliberate intent at all. It is the confusion that's causing all of this double-talk and seemingly unconnected random thoughts.
I wonder if there is a difference, physically, mentally, surroundings, something that will make some spouses more jekyl/hyde and some more pussy cat? I will say, that in my stitch, H has NEVER made any attempt to reconcile. Never wavered from needing to D me and get the he11 out of dodge.
Wonkity Wonk.
I have a question.
I've read alot in the archives how the MLC-er...if/when they come out of the fog...expect things to be the way they were before BD.
Is this true for you?
Was it like time stood still while you were in the fog? Did you have any inkling that family/friends were moving on with their lives? Or, did you simply expect them to be right where you left them.
I ask because I sometimes get the impression, that, while the kids and I have grieved his loss...I sometimes think he hasn't even really begun to grieve what he has lost. Maybe because he thinks it's all lying dormant until he returns.
Heather,
It's true that they think that we are right where they left us. Time is very slow for them and even still, so when they come out of it, the children have gotten older, the pets are older or have gone on to pet heaven and we aren't the same any longer. They tend to be like Rip Van Winkle's waking from a very long nap.
Wonka may not agree, but that's what I've been told by several who have come out the other side.
Thank you Job. That's wicked crazy.
But, it makes sense. I can see, then, how this man who loves his children, has let so much time pass by. I think he was always in somewhat of a fog. Able to let important moments pass by.
To the outside world it looks like neglect, and it is. But, I guess it makes sense that he is operating on a different clock than the rest of us. D11 will be a teenager when/if he comes through this. She was a little girl of 9 when he left. How sad. How insanely sad.
Heather, with that in mind, can you start to see the bigger picture? Can you see the intense pain they are in and are inflicting on you and those around them? In some cases (mine for example) there is intent to hurt. But I remember many times feeling like I was paying the price for somebody else's sins. i.e. the punishment didn't fit the crime (I'm not perfect and was reminded of ALL my faults and then some. But they were blown WAY out of proportion and often things were made up that were forgotten later.)
In the bigger picture, it wasn't/isn't about me. And time? Yeah, my ex is on a delayed timer to be sure.
I can only imagine how much tougher that makes things for her.
Her problem to be sure, and no excuse. But it is kind of sad to watch. Like a trainwreck in slow motion at times with little recollection of much of it.
Such is life, no?
AJ
So, does he feel abandoned by US?
Am I abandoning him if I move on with my life? If the girls and I move forward and enjoy life, I feel guilty. He is in pain.
But, he has a choice. Doesn't he? I've made it clear I would stand by him if he went for help.
Wonka - Interesting thread. Thank you for sharing your journey.
So, does he feel abandoned by US?
Am I abandoning him if I move on with my life? If the girls and I move forward and enjoy life, I feel guilty. He is in pain.
But, he has a choice. Doesn't he? I've made it clear I would stand by him if he went for help.
What was it you can do about his feelings, exactly?
You are struggling with that, I know, but you did not abandon him. He freely chose his path.
Guilt? I can understand feeling sorry for him, but guilt? They are your feelings, but I can't see how that works. Not really appropriate in my mind.
AJ
Busting: Whoops-a! I missed your question.
When you started to become more lucid, is that when you started to learn about MLC? When did you know that you went through a MLC?I learned about MLC right here in DivorceBusting threads. At first, I was in the Newcomers pool busy trying to DB Ms. Wonka. A few months later, I started to look in the MLC forums and I noticed that some of the stories shared were what I experienced myself as a former MLCer. A light bulb moment for me! Bingo! There's a name for what I went through: MLC. Surprised the heck out of me. You see..I thought the old MLC cliche applied only to old, balding men wanting to drive red Ferraris and bed 20-somethings to re-live their lost youth.
Thank you Wonka for the response! In follow-up, if I may, have you tried or thought about explaining MLC to Ms Wonka?
Not to perpetuate the stereotype, but I can't help but mention my dad.
Dad left mom for his much younger secretary (she's ten years older than me).
His hair was thinning.
He has had the latest Ferrari in his garage ever since.
Sadly, he doesn't see the connection. He IS the stereotype and he still insists his leaving was the best for EVERYONE. Ugh.
Hey Wonka,
You might want to start a new thread. I'm poster #106...but before you do, I'd like to ask you a question. Why did my response "We'll see" strike a nerve w/you? Others had posted about the possibility of you and Mrs. Wonka reconnecting...but it appears that my response was the only one to send you in a "heated" tail spin. Why?
Yeah, Wonkity, howz come you weren't T'Ode with me? I wondered about that. It's because I'm so cute and cuddly, isn't it?