I'm pretty new to the site, but had been posting in newbies. It was recommended in my thread to start posting here instead.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2357253&page=allWe had a mutual friend come over yesterday, he used to be a kid we babysat. He's now 23. Came over to ask me for a job.
My wife said she didn't want to talk to anybody and went inside the house to get away.
About an hour later, one of my wife's friends (she's even older than my wife) came over WITH the 23 year old. Her friend leads a VERY promiscuous lifestyle, and it a complete alcoholic. Only going thru men faster than drinks. My wife got so excited about her arrival, they talked about going out, and having fun in the near future. Once she left my wife went right back into silent mode with me and watched her 80's reruns. At midnight her friend started texting her that she was still with the 23 year old we all used to babysit and she was thinking about sleeping with him. She was over at his place, with several more of his friends and was asking my wife to come over. She didn't go but stayed up texting her and laughing as she was texting. She wanted to go but didn't cause of work this morning.
I woke up this morning and couldn't help but wanting to look for an apartment. I came here to post instead. I'm honestly not sure how much more I can take. I rolled over last night and acted like I was asleep.
My question is do I say anything? Its not like I have any ground to stand on right now. She, of course, doesn't want to work on the marriage, things seem to be getting worse with her actions. I'm doing my GAL stuff, but that seems to be pushing us further apart.
Thx for reading.
Wow... that is quite awful for your wife's friend to be dating someone that is half her age. But, on the other hand, it is not your wife who is doing that. Understandably you are concerned that your wife sees nothing wrong with her friend doing that. I'm not sure if I would say anything to your wife at this point, since she has not done anything.
As for your GAL's... keep at it, that is mostly for your own benefit, and you need to do whatever it takes right now to keep yourself busy, and keep that PMA.
Well, she said she would have gone if she didn't have to get up for work in the morning.
My wifes friend uses sex like we use toothpaste, I forgot to mention while she was as the house earlier she had talked about "hooking up" with an 18 year old last week. This is not someone I want my wife going/hanging out with, although I know I have no say in it. I just don't see how anything positive can possible come from my wife hanging out with this person. She has no boundries, no self control, no remorse, and certainly no conscious. They're making plans to go out this weekend.
Welcome to the MLC board, I have a long welcome post with lots of links and advice, if you have not seen it I will be more than happy to post it here.
Definitely start doing the homework that I assign on it, lots of reading.
Thx Cadet, will get busy.
Thanks for posting on my thread Thumpered. I read thru your threads, and am so sorry for what you've been going through, it sounds like five months of hell. It must be so hard for your and your kids.
TVS gave you really good advice. Detaching is so hard, isn't it? Chuck is my DB coach too. He advised me to give my H lots of space, to be pleasant and approachable when he wants to talk, avoid relationship talks, and when he says off the wall or hurtful things, just try to validate his statements and let them roll off my back the best I can. Last session he added non-sexual casual touching. Things are sort of calm at home at the moment, he's still cold but not spewing, but who know what will happen from one hour to the next.
I hope your W doesn't start hanging around with that woman -- she sounds like a BAD influence. I think I read in Divorce Remedy that an EA can occur between two women, as well as between a woman and man. I hope your W doesn't become too enamoured with the Low Life and her lifestyle
Good luck to you! Hang in there!
Been working at the DB pretty hard the last couple of days.
Wife informs me that she going to vegas with "friends" for 5 days of camping during the 4th of july weekend. Camping in vegas?? ok
Then tells me when she gets back, she'll be back for 2 days, then is leaving for Denver.
I don't know how much more our finances can take. She's taken roughly 15 trips in the last year with her friends.
I'm in kinda a unique situation. We already have separate accts due to me being self employed. I'm finding out she's had credit cards issued on my accts in her name. I found 2 in her car. Her credit is so terrible she couldn't get financed for a candy bar. EVERYTHING we own is in my name, including "her" car which I still owe a lot on.
I tried to get an apt. a couple of months ago, but due to me only being able to list one income, and all the bills in my name, I was declinded due to my debt ratio being 85%. Even if I offerd to pay the whole 6 month lease in advance. Now im having to pay bills she agreed to, so my credit doesn't take a hit. So I've managed to go thru my savings to stay afloat. I've never seen her paycheck but now know why she's broke, these trips are killing me two fold.
I'm not sure what to do. I cant see any of this is getting me anywhere but the poor house, and of course she's not slowing down anytime soon it looks like. I have/had a full head of hair, its now starting to fall out due to the stress of my business, and covering all the bills. All while I watch my wife take off on trip after trip, with no regards to food, bills, or the family.
Any advice?
If you want to stop the charging on your credit cards, call the credit card companies and report the cards stolen or lost. Have the balances rolled over to the new account numbers and don't give her any of the cards. At least that way you can ensure you are the only one with the cards. Once you get the cards, if you are the primary on them, I think you can contact the credit card companies and then have her names removed. It's the safest and easiest way of nipping the charge-aholic in the bud.
Take back the control over your finances or you'll be filing for bankruptcy before you know it.
She hasn't been able to use my cards for a couple of months now, I have my TRW run/checked every week. That's why she's now blowing thru her paychecks and not paying the bills she had agreed to. She's robbing peter to pay paul, except the paul part isn't getting paid, and just making a mess of my finances. Its getting to a point where im struggling just buying food for my son and I. Since I don't see her paycheck or what she is or isn't paying its almost impossible to stay ahead of the game.
Yes, Thumpered, I would do whatever you can do to make sure she is not spending money from any joint credit/joint credit cards. Make sure if she is spending any money, it is out of her own pocket. She will have to learn the hard way that there is not enough money for all of the trips that she intends on taking. I would not let her use your money to finance all of these unnecessary trips, when you are struggling to make ends meet. You are going to want to prevent your spouse from running up debt under your name. Cancel all of the cards you are aware of, and put them under your name.
I contacted an attorney today, did a telephone consultation.
She highly recommended that I just file, and get a paper trail going or whats not going on. That a divorce can be withdrawn later if need be. But with sinking finances, and everything in my name, im the only one that can be hurt financially for the time being. Its to protect me, as well as the kids.So.....im filling out paperwork this afternoon.
{{{{{{hug}}}}}} hope you are doing ok!
Do what you have to do in order to protect yourself financially. Filing now doesn't necessarily mean it will come to pass at a later date.
Hang in there!
I just found out that a divorce will be final 21 days after I file in my state. The easiest state to get divorced in if residency is established.
Wow, that's fast. Sorry she is taking you for a financial ride, does she pay for anything? Maybe you need to remove her cell phone from your account and stop paying for it. When she asks why, you can tell her that you simply can pay everything on your own and that while she has chosen to use her paycheck for fun only, you are struging to out food on your child's table. Do not sugarcoat it at this point.
So I took a fully copy (all 3 credit reporting agencies) of my TRW down to the attorney this morning. She looked them over, asked what I was supposed to be paying, and what she is supposed to be paying.
The attorney said the my wife is actually doing an "excellent" job handling her end, especially considering the trips with friends she's squeezed in. We couldn't find any accts that she still had her name on that were credit cards or loans.
At this point filing for divorce wouldn't do anything for the financials except a permanent division of assets/debts. Theres no current reason to have such a resolution as long as she keeps her end up. She's actually contributing towards the debt reduction. Even in a divorce agreement theres no guarantee that she's cover her half, but for now she is.
So basically, do I want a divorce cause im still more or less insecure with our situation? Or do I want a divorce cause im insecure in our situation AND im trying to control it and her in some way. Guess its time to go back in front of the mirror and find out more about myself.
I've done pretty darn good for 4 weeks now on the DB, at least in comparison to the previous 3 months prior to that. My IC says she cant believe where im at compared to a month ago. I still have a LONG way to go thou, and readily admit the patience thing is still kicking my buttage. Its funny how something like this can take the jealousy, anger, betrayal and issues in general, and really have them effect your personality. Im so tired I don't think I have many emotions left that can overcome me, I just take them as they come in, and they're getting so much easier to deal/understand them.
For now anyways, its one day at a time! My goal is to keep plugging away. GAL getting extremely hard this time of year, my busy season, but busy is busy!!!
I feel for you. I've thought about filing for legal separation but haven't. Purely for financial reasons. I can't make myself do it though.
If you've determined it's not helping you financially, what benefit are you hoping to see by filing?
Well we're not separated, still in same bed. Although were miles apart, I guess its better than actually being MILES apart.
I was advised today after all the financials were gone thru to NOT file, just wait and see. I picked a woman attorney on purpose. She was insightful, and said she's seen 100's of MLC divorces, and tells her clients to be ready when they come back, because they almost ALWAYS come back at one point, whether its too late or not is usually up to the LBS not the WAS/MLC. She said the obvious ones that one come back are pretty easy to see, especially in that stage of the game. She told me my wife will come back, but will I want her or will I have moved on by then is the question.
My wife called me twice this morning, both about work, but was friendly, did I mention ever that she's also kinda my boss. My company works for her company (her dad owns it) and its basically 85% of my work. (trying to get so im not so dependent now on them thou). I said ty and went to work both times. Had a pretty good day.
So im going with the continued DB, hoping to keep getting better at it anyways. Take care of myself and kids, and what comes to pass i'll deal with it at that time. For now im booked for the entire summer now, so busy busy busy. Which makes things a heck of a lot easier.
Hang in there Mtn, I know its tough, but don't be afraid to at least get the free consultation and weigh your options out. It doesn't make your chances better or worse in my opinion, but I dunno im still learning. But rule 1 is to always cover yourself I think.
So my wife and I have a discussion a couple of nights ago, and realized of course that not only is this not getting me,my son, or my wife anywhere. We're all just trying to hard right now, and we're all just too close to WWIII at any moment.
I'm forgetting even the good points in my marriage at this point. I'm sure a lot of you are going to disagree with me, but an in bed/house separation is like 24 hour psychological warfare that takes a very strong/special person to be able to deal with it. I am neither.
My wife and I admit that we're growing further apart and are not just roommates, but strangers. This whole process, as you know is extremely difficult at best. My wife still doesn't know w if she wants a me tattoo, another trip away, or be married from one minute to the next.
I'm moving out today as I've worn myself down over the last 5 months. I feel good, but scared a little I guess. I talked to my wife and got a place just down the street for 90 days...for now. She came over, since my daughter moved out, I needed to make sure I had/have room for my son. I took my wife over, my daughter came over, and of course my son and I are doing the lifting.
We'll give this a 2-3 month trial, see how it goes. I guess I need to risk losing her if have a chance to save it, if that makes any sense. But, I needed to do this for myself too. I need to take care of myself instead of doing all the work, and DB until she decides on trying again or not. I don't see it that way, I'll take care of myself. Period. It's gonna be easier to do that now I think.
There's no control over a situation like this, it's. Train wreck at all times, and you just focus on not being on the tracks.
I'll throw more out there later, I'm off to work
Hey Thump!
"Welcome" to the MLC board.
So you're moving out. I understand why you feel you need to do that - I'd do it myself if I had an option.
Being "in house" has pros and cons. One of the cons, imho, is that the LBS can come more quickly to resent the WAS/MLC because everything is so right-there-in-your-face.
It sounds like, for right now anyway, that everyone is being friendly in your sitch. I hope it all works to your advantage.
Cheers!
Hi Thumpered, I understand where you are coming from. I am finding it extremely difficult right now to live in the same house as my H. You never really do know what to expect from one minute to another. The roller-coaster ride really starts getting to you.
Hopefully you can find some peace at your new place. Perhaps some time apart will help both of you. I am thinking that might be what I need as well, space and time apart from H.
Best wishes!
The first night was a little tough. But easier than having to keep up a show till morning. I could relax when I wanted, I didnt have to always be thinking what the perfect response was gonne be. I dont have to watch the texting. At 2 am. It was prob the best night of sleep in 6 weeks. Not that thats saying much
So went to IC today. Had a pretty informative discussion. For the first time my therapist admitted that an OM is probably involved in some fashion. And then asked me if infidelity was a deal breaker for me, without hesitation I said yes.
I know in my heart I could eventually forgive, but not something I could ever forget about or be able to deal with the broken trust it all comes with. If you cant trust your spouse than whats the point.
So the wife off today getting new haircut and has already hidden her luggage thats been packed for another trip shes got planned starting Wednesday. Sure wish I just flat knew so I could file and move on or keep up with DB. Chuck tomorrow! Even my D17 thinks this next trip seems ominous. Of course we all know believe half of what she does and none of what you hear? Where does that put me again.?
For myself, I wonder if there is an OW involved.. but I have no evidence so I am trying not to dwell on it. I figure, if that is the case, the truth will come out eventually. Worrying about it too much does not do me any good. I feel the same way, that infidelity is a deal breaker. If that were to ever happen, I also feel that I would not be able to ever trust my spouse. Good luck with your session with Chuck tomorrow, I think I am due for a telephone session as well! I felt so much better after my last session.
Have a good day
I picked a woman attorney on purpose. She was insightful, and said she's seen 100's of MLC divorces, and tells her clients to be ready when they come back, because they almost ALWAYS come back at one point, whether its too late or not is usually up to the LBS not the WAS/MLC.
Thank you for this, it makes sense. If W and I get D, I'll be in no hurry to find a new partner. Likely won't even date. If she doesn't come back I'll be fine on my own. I really don't want anyone else's issues.
Regarding infidelity being a deal breaker...
Thousands of marriages heal after infidelity every year. Many go on to be better and stronger than they ever were before. I won't tolerate an ongoing affair, but I also wouldn't be adverse to working through trust issues after the fact. 21 years (30 inm my case) is a lot to give up on.
I purposely took a few days off from the site. Needed a break, got my advice from chuck, always very helpful.
Today my daughter texted wife, who's in Vegas again, to say I was bummed she hadn't called (I didn't know she'd done that), she thought she was helping. Needless to say my wife took it like I was trying to control her again, sheesh I can't win.
My kids are trying so hard. I took the kids up to Seattle to watch fireworks, always a great show. But, I already can't wait to get home to my new place and just chill a bit. I really just need a break from it all myself.
Fy, I understand what your saying, but at the same time, I'm not the one throwing the 21 years away. At this point I don't want to either, but at what point do you say enough is enough. I know it's now now/yet, but we'll see...........i guess.
H61, I guess we'll see how it all plays out. Things seem to have gotten word's.
Hi Thumpered, how is everything with you? Hopefully you were able to get some relaxation time in at your new place while you W was gone. I find I actually enjoy it sometimes when H is gone and I get some time to myself. Sometimes you need space too!
Had been doing so great, until today. Thought I was getting detached, wow was I wrong. Struggling mightily after a friend sent me a link of site that tracks songs playlists. My wife songs are all about another man, the high school boyfriend that got away etc etc. Guess there is someone else, wish she could just be honest, its a deal breaker for me.
Now to pick up the pieces and move on I guess.
Hi Thumpered,
Sorry you're having a bad day. I know this hurts so much.
Here's the thing with affairs/OP/infidelity during MLC - I know you said it's a deal breaker for you, but think of it this way...
I remember someone on here asking me if I really believed my H was in crisis. I said yes. Then this very wise person told me that while that person does not get a free pass, that it does explain why they are doing something so hurtful.
For me, so many things about my H were/are different. He is not the man i married. The affair is just one more thing.
So I will ask you the same thing... Do you think your w is in crisis? Do you believe she's not herself? Do you believe the real her is in there somewhere?
Now I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive my H (though I think I can). I really don't know if I'll ever be able to trust him. I don't know if we will be able to renew our M.
But I do know that when the time comes, I am willing to try.
This is still so early on for you, and I remember how raw the pain is. Don't consider yourself weak for needing to move out. You have to do what you think is best.
We're here to support you no matter what Thumpered. Maybe living apart will give you both some much needed space. Leave her to her teenage mentality of song lists and old boyfriends.
What new and interesting things are going on in your life?
I don't think my wife is in a MLC, maybe. But for sure she is a WAW. So im not sure if the rules are the same as how to go about all of this. I read the WAS thread but it only gets one or two updates a week, so hard to get/see advice.
Maybe you can be both, I dunno. I know for sure infidelity is a deal breaker for me, I can forgive, but once that trust is broken I really don't see how you get it back.
Thumpered, I am sorry you are feeling down.
Whether a MLCer or a WAW, dbing is pretty much the same.
Take care of you. Give plenty of space. Make the changes you think you need to - for you. Make sure you GAL. Eat,rest, exercise and pray if you are so inclined.
Here's the thing. You get to decide when you've had enough.
Just something to think about. Your children are watching you. It doesnt matter that they are so young.
You get the opportunity to show them how to navigate through life's challenges with dignity, courage and strength.
Become the man you were meant to be.
It is not good to ever say never, ya know?
I know of two marriages with people to whom I am close, who have stronger, deeper marriages after infidelity. They would all tell you that while the pain was great, the result was worth it. Trust can be earned back, T. It is possible.
You are reading into a playlist. Not serving you well right now.
No need to make a decision today.
Put your marriage safely in a box right now and store it away.
Continue on your journey, T. Look within and figure out who you want to be.
Not saying you might not want to quit one day. Today is not that day.
No one knows what the future holds, sweetie.
We are here for you.
My W was real big on breakup songs for a while and would sometimes walk in the room and hit "play" to one right next to me! Listens to modern pop sometimes... Prior to crises she seldom listened to any music at all. Hasn't made any moves out or towards D yet, and no signs of an A.
She was really getting into singing along to "I kissed a girl" a couple weeks ago. Maybe she has a girl friend now!!!
Seems silly to worry about just because of a song.
Just cause W listens to cheatin' songs doesn't mean she's cheatin'. You're just assuming the worst here... you really don't know.
If any kind of an A is truly an absolute deal breaker for you,
and you have real reason to believe there's something goin' on, then get to snoopin'. Don't get caught though, whatever you do. That'll mess up everything.
but once that trust is broken I really don't see how you get it back.
If you look deeply within, and W tries, you might be rather surprised... for me the main thing was for ME to
WANT to trust again, to forgive...People make bad choices, especially in a crisis mode. It's not our job to judge, imo, just help them get through it and back into living.
Her song list may just be a way to process her internal feelings and mental state in a SAFE way. Music can act as a catharsis for things we don't want to express outwardly, or don't feel comfortable with...expressing without acting...heck, I listened to a lot of dark, dark music back in the day...and I am still here...
I am a musician, so W's song choices would tweak my curiosity, knowing what I know about how it can effect the psyche, but I kept the above in mind. It doesn't have to mean any ACTION is being taken. Know what I mean?
T^2
uR,FY,T2;
Your all right, tyvm for the encouragement. Its funny, I posted took a walk came back home, and took a nap. Woke up late, and the anxiety was already gone. I didn't care again, either way. Just wish I didn't have those 2 hours sessions with my mind once a week.
I've never thought my wife was in an A, but do any of us till the proof comes along? (I couldn't find what I don't have access to). But just about EVERYONE says she is, you start believing. When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter either way according to Chuck. I guess i'll need to get to that point where having to make that decision is the key one way or the other.
As a late night update: My wife drove over tonight to talk, got out of the car and ran over and gave me a big hug,said she thinks shes coming out of the fog, she's starting to think about what she's been doing to herself, me/kids/family. Says she scheduled herself an appt. today with her dr. finally to get a check up - she's sure she's got something going on. Said I looked great all tan (I work outside mainly) and muscled up. She wants me to take her to the appt.
This was my old wife for 60 minutes, guess my daughter took her to dinner and they really talked for the first time in 5 months. Now for the hard part, to forget all about that, cause tomorrow the switch can be thrown again. Im getting myself prepared for either persona to show up again.
btw, if I have to listen to that damn Bruno Mars song one more time............
Thx again for the support.
About the songs...
When W's last EA dumped her in Feb, all I heard was that (formerly good) song "Someone I used to know"...I think I can make it through life if I never hear it again...
But it CAN work the other way....
When W and I were painting the kitchen together a few weeks ago, that Pink song "Not broken, just bent" played EVERY hour on HER radio station while we were working together...and when we took breaks, our neighbor's teenage daughter and her friends were outside playing it over, and over, and over....like teenagers do. W is into "signs"...so maybe it was a sign... Maybe, just maybe, THAT had some subconscious work/effect on W, having that song drilled into her brain while working with ME... ? lol
Nothing to take too seriously...
Hang in there!!
THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD GOT ME HERE..
IMO
the labels are not important. I think A WHOLE LOT of time is wasted trying to label a spouse as MLC b/c somehow someone thinks that it makes more sense to them,
OR b/c they mistakenly believe an MLCer is more likely to come home than a WAS.
I have no evidence to support that. But there are two things to remember.
1) spending time asking WHY/HOW COULD THEY??? is a waste of time b/c you are NOT working on yourself then
and that tends to be a big plus for some LBSers. They don't want to work on themselves or take a brave look within, they WANT their spouse to be MLC and then they can shake their heads and act as if their spouse is "just so crazy". They can avoid the self growth or the journey inward that is the only upside to this ordeal (ie the personal growth of the LBSer).
2) spending time asking WHY/HOW is a waste of time b/c it does NOT CHANGE YOUR COURSE OF ACTION...it usually delays it.
Your course of action is the same regardless of WAS/MLC.
GAL and do 180s and move forward. Doing those things helps you DETACH which is the other action.
So if there are any "secrets" to getting thru this ordeal, it's above^^^ in bold
and the sooner you get on it, the better.
I wasted a YEAR diagnosing my h instead of planning for my new life and my kids.
But once I woke up and assumed h was not coming home but that I was going to be happy anyhow,
paradoxically I did all that for ME but it seemed to lead to h waking up.
You cannot do it as a tactic - but it is the most likely way or the only way to get a few of these spouses home.
Not most. Not half. But some.
And GAL and working on yourself, digging deep and bravely, always (100% of the time) makes YOU a better person. And that's not a small thing.
Thumpered,
I understand why you feel an A is a deal breaker. I always thought it was for me, too...until I had one. I was the person who judged others who had A's and just KNEW I wouldn't tolerate it myself.
I just read both of your threads...hang in there, learn to detach and have some patience. I know this is really tough, worse than anything you can imagine. Now imagine that, perhaps, your wife felt like that for 20 years of your M while her needs went unmet because you were always working. Hindsight is 20/20. You did what you thought was right. I am not saying this is all your fault, it takes two. I am saying that she most likely endured all she could those years of loneliness to get to this point, and now, a few months in you are ready to call it quits. Give it the 20 years it took her to call it quits, you'll be happy again by then, one way or the other! Work on yourself, try to understand how she got to this point, and be patient. She probably doesn't know what she wants right now.
Hang tough
journal entry:
Been DB'n my butt off compared to the previous month, detaching has been a real priority for me. She's almost home, gone out of town 10 of last 14 days. So I've been staying at her house and taking care of the house and kids (a 180 for me). Cut way back on work, so that I could be there for everyone (also a 180).
The lovingly detached has been good for me. We still hardly talk, only when she calls or texts for the most part (except for kid issues). The conversations have been good, no fighting or arguing, but listening and validating (another 180). My daughter and I have grown very close over the last few weeks, and she's now constantly calling/checking on me, which I appreciate, but I've been taking that time with her to go shopping, go for breakfast/lunch or an ice cream run.
With all the 80-100 hour work weeks well behind me, im grateful for the time to reconnect with my kids. My daughter keeps telling me to "hold on" and give it "some time", and that she see's that im a totally different person that even 3 months ago.
Taking the kids camping this weekend, wife asked if she could join us. I said yes, but will not hold her to it.
I think I've been doing GREAT at putting no pressure on her, and really upped my PMA around her even when im not truly feeling it. Its such a slow process to get me straightened out, much less the interactions with the W. Heading back to my IC today, my IC thinks I only need to come in every other week now, and maybe soon once a month.
Went out to dinner with what I regard as my big sister, my sister passed away 2 years ago, and she was her best friend. We all took the kids out for the evening and I had only my second drink in almost 20 years, helped take the edge off for sure.
Tips for the day, for anyone following:
Baby steps, baby steps, baby steps..........listen and validate, don't miss opportunities to 180 every chance you get, lovingly detach, but be supportive but not a doormat.
Good on you, T.
You are doing wonderfully.
Keep going.
Thumper, sounds good.
Your r with your d is improving and what a gift that is to both of you.
If making your family and time with the kids is a 180 for you, then I think the issue of MLC vs WAW is even less important. Your changes need to be your focus. And they are being noticed.
But consistent change + sufficient time = change your w can believe in.
And even then, it may not be enough...why?
Well, b/c it took a lot of time and pain for your w to want to leave a marriage and break up a family. She may think 6 months of change on your end (much less the few you've put in) barely gets her to consider that the changes are real.
She'll also have to believe the changes will remain IF she returns to the m. Her biggest fear is that you will revert to your old ways and she worries she will have missed out on making a new life for herself A life wherein she feels valued. If you show her with your actions (and no requests of your d to "tell mom you noticed my changes" b/c then the changes are tactics, NOT true change) for long enough that she can believe that you have become the man she always hoped you'd become, then you may well turn this around.
No mother is unmoved by loving interactions with her children and their father. It's a turn on, frankly. And if she believes you really will treat her right, that you "get it" for real,
you could give a legacy of commitment to your children...a legacy of forgiveness, love and redemption.
That's A LOT...
What were you like when she met you and fell in love?
Can you be him again?
I think you can. But be patient with yourself AND with her. These changes in you are not enough in themselves, yet.
ALSO please get some tools if you do reconcile. NEW ways of interacting. Even if your changes are real AND permanent, and even if she wants to work on things, you will be back here again if you do NOT learn NEW ways of interacting...and how to let go of the past.
"From this day forward" are words in our vows, probably for brilliant reasons. The more I contemplate those words the more I think they are divinely inspired. Both of you will need to learn how to let go of the scorecard, for good.
I highly recommend Retrovaille or a personal growth workshop that many DBers have attended called Essential Experience (aka "EE", and please, check out their website.)
EE will house you so you just have to get there and pay their fee, which is the same now as it was 20 years ago. I've been to a few of these things and by far, by FAR, EE was the most profound at helping me make changes in my life.
Retrovaille is specifically for marriages in crisis. They also have a good website and are available nationwide. They charge a sliding scale fee.
You do NOT have to be Christian to attend but belief in God helps b/c they say that term and want some sort of spiritual connection between the couple, but if that is an issue, see if there is one for atheists...I honestly don't know.
Retrovaille has an impressive success rate but you DO have to get both people there. And the work is solely focussed on the couple, not each person's issues. We had been piecing for a year before I realized we were backsliding and I had NO reserves in me for that, so I proclaimed myself truly done if we did not get on track. We looked up Retrovaille and it was in OUR city two weeks later, on our wedding anniversary...so, yeah, we took that as a sign. And it was a great thing to do for us. Got us back on track with some new tools and reminders and some old tools that we had stopped using.
In an ideal world, you'd both do both.
Good luck
tyvm both uR, and 25,
My kids are old enough to ask questions and understand whats going on, I think my daughter spends more time trying to figure out what my wife is doing than I used too. My daughter has told her, according to wife, that she's very disappointed with my wife. I don't try to talk about whats going on, but if they ask questions I try to be honest with them (recommended from my IC).
Is that wrong? I don't paint a victims picture of myself, just that mom needs some time to figure things out. I tell them that we wouldn't be here if I didn't used to work so much in the first place. We just never made the time for ourselves, but it has nothing to do with you (meaning my kids). I don't know how else to talk to them about it. Any different recommendations?
I was gonna ask my IC about more guidelines regarding it today, but she called last minute to say she had to cancel due to a "crisis" situation, and needed to run someone to hospital. She'd call me tomorrow and make it up to me. I still need to help my kids work together, they have some anger and abandonment issues themselves regarding the last 5 months, and I was gonna bring them with me today to the IC. They seems angry at the world sometimes, which is understandable, but not healthy or helpful in any way.
Hi Thumpered, it sounds like you are doing a great job of doing your 180's and taking care of yourself. It is great that you and your daughter are developing a closer bond, that is wonderful! To me you are handling the children well with regards to talking about what is going on between you and your W. Just do as you are doing, being available to them, to spend lots of time with them and let them know that you are there for them no matter what, and will always be. And let them know that they can always ask you any questions, and that they can talk to you about whatever is bothering them. Things in their life are changing, so just remain a constant that they can count on.
I'm gonna give you some info that I've found from reading thru at least 15 different marriage help websites about a WAS.
For the first 3-4 months, NOTHING you do or say it gonna make a bit of difference. The spouse will spew, rewrite, try to justify, and generally not care much about the sitch. Anything you do those first few months towards the marriage, even if you think its helping, is NOT. In fact, your just making your work harder and you'll be helping the spouse form excuses about not listening to their desire for time and space. Detaching is almost impossible, but probably the most important thing you can do for yourself, cause "fixing it" just isn't gonna happen.
I really think the first few months is a time that you need to really focus on yourself/family. There will come a time shortly after that a window will open of self doubt in the spouse. If you've been working on yourself, the spouse will be challenging themselves during this window. I think this is the stage the WAS starts to consider more the idea of breaking up the family, wondering if they can make it without you, or the slight twinkle that maybe its worth saving.
This is a key stage, and obviously a stage that can really make or break the future. There are no guarntees either way of course. But its the point that I really think you can help yourself or hurt yourself in their eyes. If you've been doing the work, more doubt might creep in, and if not, they will detach further. Its still not over either way, but at this point you've created more work, or made it more difficult for them to end the M. The patience that you've showed before is nothing like the ride your gonna be taking now. This is the also the stage that I think "Make yourself the person your spouse would be crazy to leave" really starts hitting home.
Your work is still just getting started thou, cause at this point the doubt might be there, but trust comes into play. Trust that the changes your making are permanent. This stage can take a LONG time depending on your own unique sitchs and how much trouble the marriage was in before BD. Its over the next few months that the changes we make must be real, and not an attempt to just placate, and are really scrutinized. Now only time, effort, patience and positivity are your friends, you still have absolutely NO control over whats gonna happen. From what I've read about the differences is a MLC and a WAS. MLC can take years to get thru before you might even see positive steps, if you see them at all. And really has nothing to do with you.
The WAS is almost the opposite, its all about you, and the damage of your marriage. You ARE the reason they're willing to walk away. It also seems to have a much shorter cycle than dealing with a MLC spouse. A WAS was considering BD months or years BEFORE you got word, so for their part, maybe half the work is already done in their eyes. Can you change it around, sure. You know the mistakes/issues. This is where the labeling doesn't matter. You have to go about your DB'n the same. Cause those changes are for you, and if they help the marriage GREAT, but don't expect them to fix it. That's not up to you.
Out of all the websites i'd read thru that I could find WAS listed. There was only about 125 specific stories, and I know by no means that means much as some don't label, some don't know, and some don't care about putting it into a category. But I kept track of what progress was listed. There was roughly a 25% success rate, a 45% failure rate, and a 30% rate of limbo. Even those numbers are scewed. To be a success, you had to be long term piecing, for failure the spouse was with another person long term or divorced already. Those situations don't really mean crap as we all know piecing can fail still, and we know that some divorced or in other relationships can still come back.
But what amazed me is more about the first 3 months and the second 3 months. Like I said above, those first 3 months theres just nothing you can do to make much of a diffence (although you can do an incredible amount of damage) your aren't getting them back in that window no matter what you do. The second 3 months is the ground work for the rest of the process, hopefully you've been doing the work, learned some patience, and are in detachment mode. Its still unlikely the spouse comes home (or theres a failure at piecing), but during this 2nd 3 months the work better be well under way on your own part. After this 3 months the work is still just getting started, I think this is the stage the LBS doubt starts to creep in. (5-7 months)
If some positives are gathered from that 2nd 3 months, the LBS is more willing to give it more time. But if not, the LBS starts to wonder if they can do it, or why there doing it.
By no means is any of this scientific, proof, denial, or something to use as a standard. Some of the assumptions are VERY general to say the least. And each situation is unique. The damage varies from marriage to marriage, mitigating circumstances are also varibles.
What it all comes down to..........is you have to DB, and you have to do it for yourself. Cause whether your marriage makes it or not, changes have to be made. Those changes are going to effect the rest of your life, your interactions with friends and family, and your future relationship (albeit with your spouse or someone new). You can worry all you want about your current situation, but until those changes are made, and made permanent NOTHING is gonna make a difference.
Myself, im currently sitting at about 5.5 months, the doubt and the positivity (in my mind) both have their ways at times in my head. I have to beat both back. I have to constantly remember that the only control I have, is myself. That im going to focus on being a better me/parent/friend, even if I wasn't lacking in some of those departments before. I can always be a better me. I have to remember that i'm only half at fault as to why i'm here, but theres not much I can do or change regarding the other half.
That if im making my changes, im also becoming comfortable with myself that I can make it either way. That even if it doesn't make it, im gonna be one HECK of a spouse for someone else. I need to get to the point that the loss would not be mine, but my spouses. That only I can take care of myself, and I cant count on anyone else to do it for me.
When it comes down to it, it is ALL about me.
That was a fantastic, and very thorough summary. Very helpful and informative! Thanks for sharing all of your research and experiences.
Thumpered, I love this, well written!
I think the differences between WAS and MLC and what you write are good, but I would qualify what you said about MLC slightly to say it has “very little” to do with the spouse. I say this because many long-term marriages do get stale and a MLC spouse will emphasize any problems in the marriage. Doing 180's will remove these problems as reasons for the MLC spouse to leave.
For a MLC Spouse, DB-ing gives them the time and space for them to address their own problems. The actions I took as part of DB-ing have relieved the pressure on my W such that she went from “I’m going to leave/divorce you” to “I’m staying, but I’m still missing those loving feelings.” I don’t see anything that I can do, to change this attitude because much of my W’s internal turmoil and unhappiness is not about me or our Marriage.
Consequently, I do think it is important to assess whether it is WAS or MLC because with a MLCer, your actions will not resolve the problems and lead to reconciliation. With a MLCer, your actions relieve the pressure on the MLCer, give time for the MLCer to work through their issues, and if you have sufficient patience and IF the MLCer works through their issues, then you’ll be there available for reconciliation.
In my case, I feel more strongly than ever that my W is MLC. Her focus for a few months has been how unhappy she is with her career and how she regrets not going to medical school and being a doctor. This has nothing to do with me.
Some other indicators of MLC that I’ve picked up in my reading are:
1. She says she is unhappy and feels lost and empty inside
2. She is discontent with her life, bored and wants a new life and marriage
3. She is not sure she wants to be a wife or a mother anymore
4. She loses weight, diets, goes to the gym daily and is obsessive about exercise
5. She suddenly pays a lot of attention to her appearance
6. She spends like crazy, buying herself new clothes and other stuff
7. She seeks cosmetic surgery and other ways to appear younger and prettier
8. She act flirtatious with other men, any other men!
9. She wants a car that doesn’t say mommy
10. She focuses on herself and is extremely selfish
11. She is sarcastic, easily agitated and quick to find fault with people close to her
12.She acts like she is single – trys to go out every evening, drinks more, clubs/bars, has younger friends who are single
My W does all of these things. Can your actions change this? No, but you can relieve the pressure. I now drive the minivan, and I have not heard my W complain anymore or talk about buying a new sports car (which she was talking about several months ago). Will this action make her love me? No. Will it shorten the time in MLC? probably not. It just makes the current situation more tolerable for both of us.
Love this:
With a MLCer, your actions relieve the pressure on the MLCer, give time for the MLCer to work through their issues, and if you have sufficient patience and IF the MLCer works through their issues, then you’ll be there available for reconciliation.
and the list, well, I think W
had it tattooed in her frontal cortex
...aside from drinking and partying, but definitely single in the cyber-world and RL as far as the "other men, ANY other men" were concerned.
Think that goes in my scrape and paste library of mlc...lol.
Two questions.
Since your focus is the same regardless, what difference does all this analysis make?
It gives some people hope...and maybe that's good. And maybe that's not.
Because if the focus ought to be on the one person you can control and helping any children involved stay stable as best as possible, why bother with all this? IT DETRACTS FROM YOUR OWN WORK and let's face it...some of us want to detract from our role in this, turn away from our own flaws, but we must not.
Second, I see a HUGE OVERLAP in the "symptoms" of both MLC and WAS.
Both tend to blame the LBSer and both prepare for the single life by making their appearance better. Both tend to lose weight and start "acting younger" b/c both might be single soon...or at least want to check out the scene out there.
I could go on, but my point remains this: I spent way way too much time on WHY my h was doing what he was doing and whether he was in MLC or a WAH or just a selfish guy I had not noticed before, etc.
When I finally turned the focus on MY LIFE and what I could do about it, it's the only thing that made ME and my kids begin to find our way without him. And to plan on being happy, regardless of what his choices were.
And we did.
Paradoxically, letting them go, seems to be the only way they MIGHT come back. No guarantees, and there never were, but you are in a better place either way.
Either way...but imo, the endless analysis of THEIR choices and THEIR wants, takes the focus off the only person you can and ought to control, YOU.
And be there for the kids. That has to be THE priority...not the absent spouse. You have to reassure your kids that the absent parent does love them, which is almost always true anyhow and even if not, why tell a child that?
It's a lot to be your best self as their parent AND try to compensate for the abasent one; the analysis is a waste of time in my opinion.
I really do not get the point. I look at that first year of our sep as me wasting precious time on my H, and not getting anywhere either, and slowing my own happiness and my children's, which I still regret.
Good luck but, can you please tell me why WHY this matters so much to you?
I mean it did pre-occupy me back in 06, but even I realized after awhile it simply made no difference in MY COURSE OF ACTION...And life is short as it is.
So I spent NO more time on HIS choices, and ALL my time on GAL and my kids.
THAT made the most difference in all our lives.
regarding the kids...and an over all attitude, here's what helped me.
I planned for the worst and hoped for the best.
That meant I assumed my h would not return though I was privately open to it...and I assumed also that I WOULD BE HAPPY ANYHOW...and started to do the things I needed to do to achieve that.
I encouraged my kids to contact their dad but did not force it (well, not often but on occasion I DID)
I never openly bad mouthed him. I did sometimes say "he's confused...worked very hard all these years and has pent up demand to explore..." Which was true and not that applicable to me b/c I had been a lot wilder before I met him.
My biggest regret now that we are together, is that I did not bring my kids along with me on the "forgiveness road".
So if you and your w do begin to reooncile or piece, take them along in some way.
Good luck,
(((( )))
Two questions.
Since your focus is the same regardless, what difference does all this analysis make?
It gives some people hope...and maybe that's good. And maybe that's not.
I think this is a good question, and have seen it raised before. I see understanding the difference as helping you in the following ways:
1. If your spouse is WAS, then the issues are mostly marriage/relationship issues and 180s should have a greater impact. If your spouse is MLCer, then 180s will have less impact because many of the issues are of identity and internal to the MLCer.
2. The time frame seems to be very different with MLC much longer. Useful to know to help with acceptance.
3. MLC might not end?
The first point I think is important because if your 180s don't have impact after awhile with a WAS, you might be more ready to question whether you're doing the right 180s. For a MLC, I think that the 180s don't matter as much. In my case, my W has said that "she likes me much better now" and that "she has observed a tremendous change in me."
I find myself asking whether I can stay like this for 2-3 more years? I also find myself asking whether my W will ever resolve some of her issues? These are important questions for me to ask myself and understanding whether it is WAS or MLC helps in identifying the issues and possible outcomes.
With that I do think your advice about focusing on yourself to be good.
I certainly understand your point, but I do have one small difference. Does it matter in the end, no.
With a MLC spouse, you can make the changes and still be waiting for 1-5 years (or longer) its not so much about you making changes directly that will make a difference, but your tolerance level of your willingness to put up with.
WAS, you are the problem, and those changes might be effecting more than just your marriage. DB'n is the same of course, but I think the way you attack/treat things are different.
With a WAS your doing the opposite of what you've done in the past to show real change, become a better person. In turn the spouse see's the changes and decides or not to buy into them for a second chance or not. With a MLC spouse, it gets to a point that those changes are for you ONLY, the spouse still needs to get whatever they need to get out of their system done their own way. And, to a certain point, gets to a point those changes don't matter to them directly.
I don't know, maybe im not explaining myself well. I do see a difference. I do understand that DB'n is about me. I do understand that detaching is the only healthy way to proceed. I just see it as a difference in time I guess. I cant tell someone the DB'n is gonna be the end all, make it or not answer if its not neccasarily about me in the first place in one situation, but not in the other.
I understand your disagreement, and im not here to argue X's and O's. I just think understanding where your spouse is coming from makes a difference in your tolerance of the situation, right or wrong. The end result is still the same, take care of yourself cause its the only thing you can.
I guess the early diagnosis is for the person just starting to deal with a situation. Its so hard early, hard to take/get advice, your in panic mode, but understanding the difference can help someone mentally understand just why its so important the changes need to get into effect ASAP. Is it semantics, sure. I guess that early difference of knowing why your doing it can help in some way maybe. I dunno.
I certainly spent my first couple of months just trying to figure out why the sky was falling, now I understand it in a better way. It does help, at least me I guess. I DID do things to get me here. I don't know if it will help others, that wasn't my point, just my own justification of the why. I think if my wife was MLC I could almost let myself off in some small way that it wasn't everything I was doing that got us here, it was gonna happen regardless.
I understand your point, and agree with it 99.99%. In the end it doesn't matter, but early on I think it can help with our mindset maybe. Thank you very much for your input, and I totally respect your input. As time goes on, the process of why becomes less and less important, its just getting to that stage.
Of course it matters whether or not our spouse is MLC. If it didn't Michele wouldn't have wrote a special section in DR about it, and we wouldn't have a separate MLC sub forum for all us lucky souls who are dealing with it!
Many of the problems addressed in this marriage-saving guide are somewhat less intractable and easier to resolve. Wading through a MLC is a process that simply takes time.
...it (MLC) was gonna happen regardless.
This is true. MLC happens in some of the best of marriages. (like mine!)
Snodderly wisely tells us that we didn't break them, and we can't fix them.
Likewise, Cadet reminds us that the marriage wasn't the problem.
This seems to me to be a BIG difference from a situation where the M
was the main issue.
We all know there are no guarantees our marriage will be saved no matter what we do. That's why it really is best to focus on ourselves and do what we want FOR OURSELVES.
I like a comment I read from Cadet once where he said we can do everything right, (what ever you think that may be) and still lose our M, or do
nothing at all, and come through the crises with our M intact.
Bust On Thumpered!
I think both Thumpered and FY wrote more elegantly than me. I agree whole-heartedly.
Thumpered, I personally find all the research fascinating. While understanding that 99.5% of any actions we do to try and directly affect our WAS will be counter productive, knowing this stuff does provide some peace of mind.
Good luck!!!
Thumper, gentlemen,
I made my point and it was partly understood. My question was why this matters IF your course of action is the same. Some seem to think 180's should not be done if its MLC.
I disagree. No 180's are to be done purely for confusing the spouse. These are changes---improvements you make to be a better partner. Otherwise the 180's are false tactics. They obviously won't last in a reconciliation.
I also don't know where the hard data is which proves an MLC is more likely to return than a WAS. Perhaps some WASs who change their mind are then labelled as MLC.
Regardless, changing to become your best self & parent, GAL are still the only things I've seen work. But if you think the research does something that helps you change and GAL & detach, then by all means keep at it.
I just passed on my experience.
Good luck!
Hi 25, thank you so much for your continued support to the members on this board. I'll never forget your posts to me when I first arrived here. Your words of wisdom have helped countless DB'ers get headed in the right direction. I also admire how you handled your H's MLC.
No 180's are to be done purely for confusing the spouse. These are changes---improvements you make to be a better partner. Otherwise the 180's are false tactics. They obviously won't last in a reconciliation.
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
I also don't know where the hard data is which proves an MLC is more likely to return than a WAS.
I'm not sure who believes that, and would agree there likely is no data on the subject. Even if there was, it would be near useless. It could never tell us which particular marriages were going to make it and which wouldn't. The thing I do know is that a spouse in MLC is dealing with much more than issues from the marriage, and no 180's we make can fix that.
But if you think the research does something that helps you change and GAL & detach, then by all means keep at it.
For me, understanding better what my W is going through helps me to have compassion for her, and to continue standing even when things seem to be at a standstill. I honestly believe it would be easy for many of us to give up and throw in the towel if we didn't understand what our spouse is going through/dealing with.
I just passed on my experience.
Good luck!
Thanks again.
What a crappy weekend to get out and GAL, so damn hot. With working outside, and it being 105 all weekend, I just couldn't get out to do a thing, I was exhausted.
Some slippage the last few days on my 180's. Time to get back to work again. I need some better ideas for GAL'n, the gym is like going to work since im already 5% body fat and do heavy lifting all day long. All my friends are drinkers, I went out Friday night, and had Dr. Pepper and ate dinner. Was still nice to just get out. Saturday night kids took me to a carnival in town, face painting and all. My kids have been just soooooo GREAT.
So need to get better at detaching, think wife and I talk more now than the last 5 years, which might be part of problem for me, I take it too positive or negative. Been wondering if going on anti depressants is an option, heard far more bad than good with them. Make you foggy, and terrible to get off them.
So my wife tells me today she's ready...............for the divorce.
I was in the process of getting a bigger place so my son could come live with me, but today he told me he decided to just stay with my W.
Double ouch.
The financial implications hit me today, im so overwhelmed now, i'm going to lose 85% of my business with the divorce. (since I basically work for my wife's family).
I'm just stunned as to my next steps, I couldn't even get up to work today. Seems the whole world just collapsed on me. I'm not sure if I should go dark (would that be abandoning the kids?), my wifes romance is long distance so its like a honeymoon every month when she flies to see him. And he's a Dr. so a much better provider I guess. (ouch three). They were high school sweethearts 25+ years ago. They reconnected on facebook.
I have a few options, none I like, I can go live with a brother in Washington, go live with a brother in Utah, or attempt to stay here and try to build a construction co. back up in a terrible economy. With the debt im facing, i'd need to make at least 3k a month to cover expenses, much less gas the truck, feed myself, and keep roof over my head. My credit is excellent but my debt ratio is blown up.
I cant stop shaking at the overwhelming tasks ahead. My wife is going in today for a cervical cancer, breast lumps check on top of it, originally she asked me to drive her, but told me she'd call me instead. (ouch 4). I already know its bad, but how bad, and now im not in a position to be supportive like I was supposed to be last week when she asked me.
Her dr. friend also has a rare blood cancer, and it gives them a new connection.
Guess im just looking for advice of whether I should move out of town and be away from my kids, they've basically got me thru the first 3 months and I cant stand being away from them for even a minute. OR, do I just move on with life, and pray it works out with my kids?
So so many questions, just not enough answers.
My heart breaks for you, wish I could wave a magic wand and make it all disappear,you are still so new and I remember the pain so well.
But I do know this it does get better,it will take a long time this journey we have been put on, but you will make it,so sorry you find yourself here, may God give you strength to cope with all things that are and will be changing.....Irma
Thumper, I feel your pain and know what you're going through. Right now you should grieve a little, take care of yourself, and stay connected with the kids, family, and friends.
The W's mention of divorce doesn't mean it's all over between you. Whether she actually files, and go forward is another story.
If your business is 85% due to W's family, then I think you need to talk to them. Why would your W ruin her husband of 21 years and the father of her children? At the very least, develop a plan to reduce their percentage of your income over the next year or two?
To maintain a relationship with your kids, you should stay in the area.
Also, continue following the DB-ing tasks since it will help you detach and get on with your life no matter what happens.
So talked to wife, she sounded upset about her appt. but also said she wouldn't discuss it with me, and would rather just be alone for a while.
This has gone from doing pretty decent to within 2 weeks, a complete reversal. Guess OM has more of a hold than I thought possible.
Is this when u implement going dark?
I don't think going dark would help too much. I would not be the one to initiate contact, but I would not completely ignore her calls/texts etc.
If you read the other sitch's here, many MLCer's do not follow through.
What you might try is to show your W that you will get on with your life regardless of a D or not. Keep a PMA and show her happiness/contentment whenever you interact. It will be the opposite of what she will expect.
(((hugs))) to you Thumpered.
More time and patience required. Let her come to you to discuss her appointment. Given the length of your M, she will likely inform you.
A agree with SA, do not initiate contact, but be there if she should want to talk.
Don't go dark, just a little dim.
BE THERE for your kids, she may not be able to be around them much these days.
I don't think you should move away from your kids... You already said you need to be around them.
(((((more hugs)))))....
Magic
(((hugs))))
Sorry to hear Thumpered. I think you should continue to live near your children so that you can be there for them. Sounds like you were starting to create a great bond with them, and they will need you now more than ever.
so are any of my fellow LBS'ers on anti depressants? if no, why. if so, which ones have you tried?
I really think it would help me out, but scared to death of coming off them from some of the rumors. Any advice appreciated.
ok, not a doctor, nor have I played one in a school play or anything like that...but...
Go as mild as possible...learn to mediate, etc along with anything...you may want to start with St.John's Wort or Mucuna Pruriens (herbs) to see if natural does it. Otherwise, some general thing like wellbutrin may help. You just want to take the edge off so you can do YOUR internal work, day to day stuff, etc... not just mask the symptoms and join your spouse in la-la land...
Also, a good mediation that the VA uses for PTSD is googled via "be still and know exercise"...
I take Mucuna Pruriens, helped me with quitting smoking and this sitch, BUT, meditation (including my above suggestion), working out and GAL are probably more effective in getting to where I am...and detachment, logic, big time....
Just my non-doctor 2.5 cents....YMMV
those mediations above there, ^^^^, should be meditation.
Hi Thumpered,
Sorry things are tough right now. This is all so very hard.
I agree with dim not dark. Remember that her wanting to be alone is not about you or an OM. It's about her needing space to figure things out.
That's why I like the phrase "love them from a distance". It's the most loving and kind thing we can do for them right now.
As far as AD's, that's a very individual decision. I'm not on any, but did discuss it with my IC in the early months after bomb. I wanted to try focusing on myself and the kids in combination with yoga and taking better care of myself before trying meds. I did end up feeling much better.
Getting yourself to a good place is important, so think of different ways to help make that happen.
Hang in there!
I am thinking of trying St. John's Wort, although I haven't yet.
Thumpered,
I am so sorry you received this news.
The financial implications hit me today, im so overwhelmed now, i'm going to lose 85% of my business with the divorce. (since I basically work for my wife's family).
I do agree with Sailing, just because your M is "ending" (not necessarily, just today), why would her family want to hurt your livelihood and their grandchildren? I would contact them and say something along the lines of "I am so sad we are in this situation, however, I hope we can continue to work together as we always have so I am able to provide for OUR children.
I'm just stunned as to my next steps, I couldn't even get up to work today. Seems the whole world just collapsed on me. I'm not sure if I should go dark (would that be abandoning the kids?)
No, it wouldn't be abandoning your children because at their ages I have to assume you are able to contact them and make plans with them without involving their mom. Just as they make plans to see their friends w/o involving their mom, they can do that with you - and courts give kids the right to decide at 13 in most states.
I have a few options, none I like, I can go live with a brother in Washington, go live with a brother in Utah, or attempt to stay here and try to build a construction co. back up in a terrible economy. With the debt im facing, i'd need to make at least 3k a month to cover expenses, much less gas the truck, feed myself, and keep roof over my head. My credit is excellent but my debt ratio is blown up.
This is a valid concern when your income is cut, can you move to a cheaper place w/o leaving your kids?
This has gone from doing pretty decent to within 2 weeks, a complete reversal. Guess OM has more of a hold than I thought possible.
Is this when u implement going dark?
Guessing that this is due to OM is mind reading, don't go there. Maybe she is just upset, scared, etc. about the news she has received.
Going dark? In "normal" circumstances, probably, however with an illness in the picture that may not be the best idea. I think SA and MM are right when they say don't initiate contact but don't ignore her. I may add in that you might tell her something like "I am sorry you are facing xx. I understand that you don't want to share anything with me about this right now but I am here to help you with xx if you change your mind"
What you might try is to show your W that you will get on with your life regardless of a D or not. Keep a PMA and show her happiness/contentment whenever you interact. It will be the opposite of what she will expect.
Definitely...and don't move away from your children if you can afford not to.
Good luck
How is everything going Thumpered?
This is Highway61.. had to change my username as I found out that H had been reading my threads secretly... so I am now incognito, cause I wanted to keep posting on here! lol.
Hope everything is ok with you and that you are having a good weekend. My H is gone camping with the kids this weekend so it has been a bit lonely and quiet here around the house with them gone, but they are coming home tonight.
Tyvm for checking in, I must admit I think about you daily, wondering how youve been doing.
After reading so many negative threads lately, seems quite a few of us had turns for the severe worst recently, and a lot of advice to go dim. Ive been doing my best, but to just feel my own pain and just grieve my marriage instead of run from it. I guess its helping me detach like losing a loved one to death.
I hope your doing ok. The crazy back and forth can really be harder to deal with than the initial bd shock. Sometimes its so funny how getting away from our spouses can be a relief. Use this time to recharge your batteries and get the negativity out of your system. Hopefully you'll be ready, mentally and physically, to get yourself ready to for another round of time ant patience.
Im to the point, that my wife cant be honest with me right now, and seems to be going out of her way to hurt me, that it is best to just prepare myself to move on now. That two decades could mean absolutely nothing to someone, in fact working so hard to make it all disappear while being so cold and resentful while doing it still just shocks the hell out of me. I guess its the usual lbs/was banter we do with ourselves. She content on trying it with someone else, We see issues, they only decide to see problems.
Now that I know your ID change. Im looking forwad to catching up on your sitch. Things sounded a bit neutral, but at the same time positive last I knew what i was reading. Hopefully things are progressing along.
Im without internet right now, moved into a bigger place, they said internet was up but its not. Between no cable and everything I own right now not even filling half the new living room, life is a little daunting. Even a sneeze echoes thru like an empty canyon. Too broke to buy what I need, and still no end in sight of the mountain of debt. Life must go on, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, right?
And trying to read on this tiny phone screen gets old fast. Amazing how bad you can miss the internet. Thx again for checking in. We'll see you on the boards soon. Please take care till then.
You're welcome! I know, I often think of how you are doing as well! You really helped me out when I was feeling sad. We are all in such a tough situation right now. I still can't believe all of this either, how a spouse can change so drastically, especially after so many years of marriage. I always assumed that love would be unconditional, I never really expected any of this to happen. So crazy! How am I still in shock after all of these months?
Hope you are doing okay and keeping busy. I found it strange to be alone in the house with no H or children this weekend.. I ended up eating mac and cheese for dinner with a glass of wine.. haha! Hopefully you get your internet soon. Have your children been to see your place yet? How are they holding up?
Take care,
CP
Thumpered, I'm catching up on your sitch after being distracted by my own.
You mention that your W seems to be going out of her way to hurt you. In my sitch, with time, I think DB-ing and 180's helped diffuse this tendency. If you are nice, calm, and non-combative in all interactions with the W, then it is more difficult for them to hate you or blame you for their problems. The 180's were on behaviors and things I did that caused the W pain. For example, being critical of her, complaining, and other small things that made living together better for both of us.
Try to keep up the PMA and maintain cordial relations from your side at all times and maybe with some time, your W's anger towards you will dissipate.
My W seems to have burned through the anger (knock wood). Took about a month. There was a flurry of asking me for little things. Now it's quiet. Of course I'm hoping there's a lot of thinking going on while it's quiet.... But, no way to know.
There's a reason they call it a roller coaster. I think the analogy fits the WAS/MLCer, and the LBS.
Seems i'm only logging in every OTHER day recently, was hoping to log in and read some good news and be happy for at least someone. The 16 threads I've really been following, 15 of them had a turn for the worst recently (affairs mainly). Need some positive news, even if its not for my sitch.
We need to find out if our spouses are all drinking the same bottled water or something. I've recently learned that 3 more of my friends are having moderate to severs marriage problems as well. Not a club I wanted anyone joining me in.
I've also been sick, some kind of stomach virus lately, hard to keep food down, and my energy level is even lower than it was before. Hope everyone reading is doing ok.
In a real funny moment, I had a 29 year old waitress pass me her phone number. She is very pretty. Sadly, im not attracted to her, at least not right now. I've still got a bit of work on myself to do before I can make someone else happy.
Day by day, step by step, thought by thought.....moving forward.
Also on a side note, I've had a some blood in my urine recently. Trying to get in to see a dr., no funds, no insurance now.
My father died at 54, my grandfather at 44(although he was shot in killed in the line of duty-cop) Hope im not having prostate troubles already.
I can tell you I'd feel pretty stoked if a 29 yo gave me her number, instead of a dirty look, LOL. :-D
You've been all over the forum helping others, and really seem to have a great grasp on the DB principles. I promised myself I'd keep trying to help others on here when W and I started piecing 6 yrs ago, but when I failed to keep up with the piecing, I failed to keep that up, too. :-(
Sorry to hear about the health and insurance problems. I have a whole parcel of them, and I remember trying to work with my dad and brother in our own business and having to give up and go back to the corporate world and my cubicle because I needed the benefits. Good luck with the medical appointment. Keep us posted.
What a crappy weekend to get out and GAL, so damn hot. With working outside, and it being 105 all weekend, I just couldn't get out to do a thing, I was exhausted.
Some slippage the last few days on my 180's. Time to get back to work again. I need some better ideas for GAL'n, the gym is like going to work since im already 5% body fat and do heavy lifting all day long. All my friends are drinkers, I went out Friday night, and had Dr. Pepper and ate dinner. Was still nice to just get out. Saturday night kids took me to a carnival in town, face painting and all. My kids have been just soooooo GREAT.
MEET NEW PEOPLE...that, to ME, is key to GAL. They don't remind you of your situation or bring it up so there are fewer reminders and the PMA is much easier. It's also more interesting. Absolutely JOIN something or take a class. If you have not seen my personal GAL list, go track it down. There's no good reason not to be GAL now...
we hammer it for a reason. It works.
So need to get better at detaching, think wife and I talk more now than the last 5 years, which might be part of problem for me, I take it too positive or negative. Been wondering if going on anti depressants is an option, heard far more bad than good with them. Make you foggy, and terrible to get off them.
I've taken them twice, for different reasons and got different types of ADs. Once for grief after my dad died suddenly and then later during the winter in Alaska. Different meds, for different types of depression versus melancholy, etc.
I am sorry you have heard bad information. I found them very helpful both times. NO problem "getting off them", just weaned. They are not "addicting" in the sense that you'd have to keep increasing the dose or crave, etc. And if they help, then why get off then? I mean, I think there are some knee jerk reactions from people who had the wrong dosage or confuse medications altogether. They'll be taking anti psychotics and call them anti depressants... NOT the same thing at all. Communicate with your doctor. If you feel "foggy" then chances are the dose needs an adjustment, or you increased it too quickly, etc.
TALK to a professional. And don't forget the downside of NOT taking them, like how you feel. Or if you obsess too much and or say the wrong thing or worsen the relationships b/c of your temper or blurting out things...which MIGHT get a lot better if you take ADs...
I'm not trying to push these onto you but I did a lot of research before I took any.
My h is an MD and when we talked after my dad's death I confessed I was "not shaking it" and could not concentrate at my new job. Kept forgetting things,felt tired but slept poorly...and that's BEFORE I went on an SSRI antidepressant. H was supportive and explanatory about how our brains react to grief, not sleeping or eating right ALSO affect us and it's a cyclical thing. But I got great results both times so I"m a poster child FOR the medication I took after my dad died.
Within days I felt 'better", with less "what if" obsessing... and two or three weeks after starting them, I was tapping my steering wheel on the way to work, to the tune on the radio.
I suddenly realized I had not sung or tapped to music for months...I was getting better! I could "hear" what was said at work and retain the new information...
so for ME it was a Godsend.
As for Getting off them, I did not have or notice anything much. I felt fine on them, but After about 6-8 months my libido was still down (it was down when I was depressed too, but this felt medication related).
So I told my doctor. He offered me an alternative AD or the option of weaning off, which I did. So i decreased my dosage and then eliminated it over a 2 or three week period. Still took something to help me sleep. But did not notice ANYTHING like a "withdrawal"...while my moods moved a bit more, my libido came back and that was worth it to me.
And that was that. I have friends who tried 3 different ADs before finding the right one, plus dosage adjustments. So you have to be patient. My dose was a low one, btw.
What I took in Alaska was totally different, acting on different receptors in the brain. Thank God...b/c they helped me there too, when I had no sunlight for months. Different chemicals get involved or imbalanced, so different adjustments need to be made.
Ask yourself how you are presently affected by your emotional status. That's what NOT taking them costs...but there are downsides and pros/cons to ALL choices in life.
Do some good solid research, not the alarmists hysterical anecdotal versions of hell, OR the pharmaceutical companies commercials. Read the Journal of the American Psychiatric Association, or the New England Journal of Medicine, etc...
there are some great resources out there for us to learn from.
TYVM for the input 25, even thou things seems like they've turned for the worse in my marriage, hmmm, its strange I don't care as much. Whatever happens im gonna be fine.
My relator just called and the house I've been waiting months for to come out of pre-forclosure listed today. Its a bit of a fixer upper, perfect for me as I own a construction co. and would do ALL the work myself. I have a viewing appt. tomorrow at 9 am. Its a little higher than I think its worth but the market is going bananas right now here. And even at the price, it would be 200.00 less a month than im paying for an apt. half the size of the house. I CANT WAIT.
I did sign up for 2 classes a few days ago, both work related, one is a 3 day class(aug 25th), and the other is a 5(sept 25) day class. Those were the earliest I could get in, better late than never.
great news about the house Thumpered! that's very exciting.
I hope you enjoy your classes.....I'm thinking of taking some cooking classes (I'm actually quite a good cook and am thinking sushi or something different)
Well crap, I was working late helping a friend, and my agent called again to say the bank just called him back, the people that had the 6 oclock showing put an offer in and the house has been sold, in 2 darn hours. This housing market is getting crazy now.
Thumpered, too bad about the house, but nice to be propositioned by the waitress
On top of my crazy home-life I have my own construction problems involving permits for remodeling -- permits that I did not get and now need to get after the work is done. Funny how stuff like this would have bothered me immensely but now it just rolls off. The problems in my R make every other problem seem insignificant.
That is too bad about the house not working out... maybe the deal will fall through! I like the fixer-upper idea.. that is perfect for you!
Here is a quote from an unknown source and I think most of here would agree with this:
"Real Love
Many people think that real love is just a feeling. You know, the “I’m in love and it’s wonderful” feeling. It’s important to understand that it’s relatively easy to get this feeling while dating.
If real love is just a feeling, feelings come and go. But real love doesn't come and go. Love is patient and kind. Love isn’t jealous, rude, selfish, or easily angered. Love keeps no record o...f wrongs. Love finds no joy in evil, but rejoices in what is right. Love is supportive, loyal, hopeful, and trusting. Love never fails.
Real love is much more than the feeling of being “in love”, it’s a lifelong commitment. When you say that you love your significant other, you are saying that you are committed to loving them for the rest of your life - for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, from this day forward, until death do you part. Real love never fails. (Please keep in mind that you can have real love for your significant other even though you don’t have the feeling of being “in love” all the time - even happily married couples report that they sometimes don’t have the feeling of being “in love.)
Think of it this way, if a person has real love for another person, it’s like the sun, it’s always there no matter what (remember that even when it’s night, the sun is still there, it’s just shining on the other side of the earth - and when it’s cloudy outside the sun is also still there, it’s just behind the clouds). The feeling of being “in love” is like sunshine - even though we would like it to be sunny everyday, the truth is that sunshine comes and goes. I’m hoping that this explanation is helping you to see that it’s possible for a person to have real love for another person and not feel “in love” with that person at a particular moment.
So when you hear someone say, “I don't love him or her anymore” - take it for what it really is. It’s someone saying that they have lost the feeling of being “in love”, that they don’t know how or they are not willing to make the effort required to get back the feeling of being “in love”, and that they never had real love for that person to begin with because real love never fails.
Real love is what keeps people together for 50 or 60 years."
It seems to me that our leaving spouses are hung up on the feeling of being in love. If we want them back, we are going to somehow find a way to be more "in love"able
I always thought this way. I never realized, until this year, that my wife didn't. Funny how you can be so close to someone for so long and not really know how they think.
It seems to me that our leaving spouses are hung up on the feeling of being in love. My H to a T.
If we want them back, we are going to somehow find a way to be more "in love"ableIdk about this. "In love" never lasts. So even though we might morph into Mr/Ms Loveable, the fix will only be temporary. I don't know that there can be a lasting R without a mutual belief in love being "more than a feeling".
Just my humble opinion
But thanks for the quote 2ndtime, it was full of things to ponder.
Cheers
//If we want them back, we are going to somehow find a way to be more "in love"able//
Or, maybe we should raise our standards and look for someone who has maturity > 17 yrs old. This view of love is immature and chidish and I personally don't want to be committed to someone who has these views.
I posted this quote on my Facebook page and surprisingly quite a few adults disagreed with it siting examples of couples who were always "in love". Anyone read any of John Gottman's stuff about predicting which marriages will fail?
//If we want them back, we are going to somehow find a way to be more "in love"able//
Or, maybe we should raise our standards and look for someone who has maturity > 17 yrs old. This view of love is immature and chidish and I personally don't want to be committed to someone who has these views.
For those in MLC the search for those "in love" feelings of limerance can be a temporary thing, not something they'll long for forever.
Real love tells us not to give up so easily, even when our spouse is acting in a manner that is immature.
I think that mature people make a decision to love their partner, day after day. Love takes work. I think all of us on this forum who are Standing have made a conscious decision to love.
I posted this quote on my Facebook page and surprisingly quite a few adults disagreed with it siting examples of couples who were always "in love".
They're using different definitions for "in love". The couples they cite as examples most certainly went through what some like to call the limerence phase of a new relationship, (look it up) which only last 6 months to 2 years. True love, mature love, or whatever you want to call it can then follow. Many of the couples who make it here, especially if they consider themselves "happy" and have no major problems in the M would say they are still "in love", even though their feelings for each other are much different from the initial feelings of falling in love.
The ones who report not being in love just laugh at the marriage jokes on late night TV.
Spouses longing for or in affairs are always seeking limerence love. That's why even when they find it, it often dies in 6 - 24 months, and breakup soon follows.
Journal:
Well, not sure what to report. The D word hasn't been brought back up. She's content on keeping her distance, although she did come over a few days ago, gave a good cry, and asked for a hug and left. She's on anti depressants now.
I've been trying to go dim as best as possible, give her time and space, which she's run with. Taking care of myself, working, took up tennis since the court in 20ft. outside my door.
Even tho both of us seem to be relatively healthy, were both having some moderate health issues now. I'm still DB'n, although i feel like im having the reverse 180 done to me.....in textbook fashion now. Things she's said are not part of the WAW script, but right out of the "How do you know when your marriage is over" book instead.
Trying to be confident and get out as much as possible, but extremely hard with no funds, and my health in constant decline at this point. I stepped on a scale, knew i'd been losing weight but I've now gone from 190 down to 145. I look terrible, and I've been eating. The bloody urine, 24 hour stomach cramp, and found 2 new growths by my stomach have me a bit worried i guess. Called every doctor in town, and none could see me before the 19th.
Even if i was ready to try a date (which im not), i'd be too embarrassed now to even ask. Doing some carb/protein milkshakes at night now, but still extremely tired all the time. Sleeping ok i guess, but just fatigued.
This all has taking its toll, on all of us, but i felt like i was battling thru it ok until this last week. Between trying to just mourn the loss of my marriage i guess. Still trying to figure out what the next step of the process is, but not in a hurry to push myself thru it either.
Thumpered, sorry to hear about your health. Do you go to the gym? That helped me a lot. I still go regularly, it's now been 7 months. Also make sure you get a good night's sleep. The weight loss you show is troublesome, don't lose any more weight.
About the W. Why have you gone dim? Don't go too dim. Give space, but when she comes over have a PMA and appear happy. It does work.
What do your kids think? They are old enough to see what's going on.
Well im a manual labor guy anyways, lift all day at work, I could bench 300 previously. Curl 150. I did the gym thing first couple of months, and got nothing out of it but to say I was there. I took up golfing and tennis lately, and really feel it is more relaxing and I get something out of it too. Play with my son. I have to admit I still look young for my age, no grey hair yet, and full head of hair. Most ppl say I look 35. My son told me today I looked exactly like Tom Cruise (lol-i wish, he's trying so hard) before I lost all the weight.
I might have gone a bit too dim the first week, change what wasn't working, stepped up a tad. Communication has been better since. Went dim cause I suspect, but can never confirm, her contact with an old boyfriend/friend from high school days. Its a long distance EA at this point im guessing, and of course he's telling her how he regrets things didn't work out then, and maybe this is the second chance he's been waiting for. Who knows, I did enough mind reading already. I don't have a jealous bone, an ounce of hate left in my body anymore.
The way I look at it now, is if she cant/doesn't want me after 21 years, and all the changes she says' she's noticed, then theres nothing else I can do. I just keep working on what I can control.
I try not to talk about it with my kids at all actually, I tried to be as supportive as I could at first. And, somehow it all came back and hit me in the face that I was some kind of control freak, the kids thought they were helping, but made some things worse, but did it out of love. I understand what they were trying to do. Now my son prefers just to move out of state, get away from it all, I've told him we cant run from it, we must deal with it. Its life, how we handle it will help us the rest of our lives, when it hurts so much especially.
Going dim or dimmer in my case, has really helped me detach. I would actually recommend it if someone was to ask me how to help detach when they're having troubles getting there, but ea. sitch is so unique even thou it seems like they're all playing with the same handbook. Its not the present or future that makes our sitches unique, its our pasts, and what got our marriages in trouble in the first place.
How's your sitch? i'll have to pop on over and catch up on the last few days of reading. Hope all is well, I know it is with you cause you got this crap down to a capital G, for GOT IT.
Thumpered, the weight loss sounds problematic. How long did it take for you to lose that weight? Was 190 overweight for you? If you lost that much weight over a short period of time, you should probably go to the hospital. You really do need to focus on you right now.
As far as what to do about w right now... If you have always been there for her you might want to try being a bit less available and see want happens.
Thumpered, yes, definitely do something about the weight loss.
I think there is a balance between creating space and distance and also showing W 180s, PMA, and GAL -- all of which makes her question her decisions. Golfing and tennis sound like good activities, especially if you do it with buddies.
good luck.
Well I finally got to speak to a dr. a couple of days ago. He'd asked me about my diet changes recently. Told him I was trying to eat even better, not that I ever ate badly. Had switched to 100% whole wheat bread for all my work sandwiches/bagels/etc.
After only a couple of days of gluten free, I feel AMAZINGLY better, no stomach pain, fatigue fading fast, got some decent sleep. I'm amazed how much the sudden change shocked my system, although I was eating a TON of it. He was also mentioning that he just read a recent study about how whole wheat has been tied to depression as well. Maybe the tactic was a moral placebo, but I feel so much better again all around.
So just a heads up to everyone, even the good stuff supposedly isn't as good for you as you think.
Woke up this morning, had a nice conversation with wife for about 45 mins, took my daughter out to dinner tonight, had a very nice time. Home now, relaxed, and ready for work tomorrow.
Bring it on, already feeling recharged.
Glad to hear you're feeling better! Is the doctor testing you to find out about the bloody urine and weight loss?
Maybe your're allergic to gluten and should cut it out all together? Even whole wheat is chock full of gluten. My SIL has celiac disease and says she can buy great gluten free bread products in her lical gricery store.
Thumpered, that is great that you are feeling better and feeling re-charged. Are you allergic to gluten?
I too have days where all of my energy is completely drained, and I wonder if I should be altering my diet as well.
Hope all is well with you,
-cp