I formerly posted under,"I keep on keepin on". The attorney has been hired and soon my h will be served. I will tell him then that I know about the secret phone. I will tell him how he spoke to me just a few weeks ago about how people should be respected, how men who abuse women should be shot and all the while he abused me emotionally and betrayed my trust yet again . He speaks of honor and not shaming the family name to his son while he does just that. He has aspects of sociopathic behavior and is essentially gone. Doesn't care that he has destroyed a family and a marriage. So very sad and nightmarish.

Hey I am proud of you taking a stand is hard especially in DB land when everyone tells you to keep taking kicks to the stomach.
We all take different paths I am going forward to her telling me she is going out with him is the end I know I can sit here and take it for as long as I have to I know she will turn and say what did I do but I am tired of this show and I am changing the channel
You have all our support keep on keepin on
Sunny

Thanks sunny
I just can't endure any more. He has suffered no consequences for his behavior except for some emotional outbursts from me. He does not respect me and has not for some time. Maybe it's partly my fault. No matter. It will end soon. He is not expecting this. But I am finally done after doing my best for an entire year.

I understand why you need to do this Rachael (I have also seen the lawyer, and just waiting for our tax stuff to be finalized). They are completely unaware of what they're losing/lost, and for me, I don't care anymore.

Good luck.

Being me
Thanks for your encouragement. Sorry u have to do the same as me. Here's to a better life off the crazy rollercoaster. I am sure I will be better with him out of the house and so far it looks like the kids will be ok too. (They are adults).

Thanks sunny
I just can't endure any more. He has suffered no consequences for his behavior except for some emotional outbursts from me. He does not respect me and has not for some time. Maybe it's partly my fault. No matter. It will end soon. He is not expecting this. But I am finally done after doing my best for an entire year.

I totally get this - my brother said something to me that was important - lets say she comes back to you - even on bended knee - how do you ever get over it - the people we love have changed they are dead and gone - do we sit and wait 2-5 more years and hope for the best - maybe - but when someone completely disregrds you.

Positives to take away - MAN have I grown this year - I look great feel grat and have learned that happiness comes from within not from out circumstances - I look forward to tomorrow - it's looking very bright to me now !! All because of the power of a decision.

Thanks sunny
I was feeling sad yesterday but better now. Thanks for the encouragement. I have been asked by the atty if I want to go back to my maiden name . I'm seriously considering it. What do you women think ? Since I have no minor children why keep the married name? Also, all my kids know about the affair except youngest son 18. Should I tell him after filing?

If you want to go back to your maiden name I would - I think when the kids are small it's important to keep the married name - but since you're splitting up I say go back to the name

I didn't go back to my maiden name because everyone knows me by "Snodderly". I had entirely too many accounts, documents, etc. that had my married name on them and I also didn't want people questioning me all of the time about the name change.

It's a personal preference and only you can decide if you want to revert back to your maiden name.

Yeah, I didn't go back to my maiden name either. I had been going by my married name for as long as by my maiden name, and although my kids were in college, I still liked the idea of us having the same name still. Plus my entire professional career had been under that name.

Still - it feels kinda awkward explaining to dates that this was my ex's name. I worry that they might think I still have some kind of attachment to HIM - which I DON'T. So sometimes I do wish I had changed it.

When I was dating this husband it bugged him that I kept the married name of the first one but my oldest son was young at the time. Now his mistress kept her married name, has no kids, and was only married 5 years . Doesn't bug him at all. What do people think about when to tell S 18 about dads affair? He'll see the hypocrisy in the old man.

Once your H has been served and the divorce is under way, I think you just tell son that you are divorcing his father, and that his father has been unfaithful. End of story, Son doesn't need to hear any gory details. Most importantly, son needs to hear and see that you are strong and going to be ok - you need to be his rock.

Thanks kml
Sounds like good advice. I will do that.

And hard though it is, you need to encourage him to maintain some type of relationship with his dad. Sometimes they will side with the "injured" spouse, but that can have bad consequences long term (in my ex's family, the boys sided with their dad when their mom left him during their teen years - they cut off all contact with her. Ten years later I encouraged my ex to contact her, since "no contact" was more of a burden than polite contact. One brother waited until his 40's to resume contact, and one in his 50's still doesn't speak to her.)

So better for him to have a polite, if maybe distant, relationship with his dad, than for him to get pulled into "siding" with you.

I believe you are right. I didn't interfere with S relationship in first marriage. Didn't badmouth him and son found out about his dad on his own.

Rachael, there will be things, like his irritation with your married name vs his OW's married name. It doesn't make sense, and none of this does.

Re married name ... I'm not going to change back to my maiden name, but I will use it as a non du plume (sp?) if my books ever get published. Every identity, including my diploma, immigration card, and degree that I'll be getting next year has my married name. Fortunately, H and I are friendly, so I'm not angry anymore (which might've given me reason to change my name).

As far as I'm concerned, he is free to do whatever he wants. He always was, but he chose to cheat, so there ya go. I chose to hope and try things to see if there would be change, for 7 years, and now I choose to divorce him.

What's changed for me is that when I laugh, it feels real. I feel at peace, and relaxed when H is away, and tense when he's around. I've stopped going out with him, to keep him company.

I will definitely encourage my children to have a good R with their father.

Dear being me
Right now I feel better when he's not around. I haven't been me for a long time. I was always worried about what he thought. Where'd that get me. No respect that's where. I have signed the final complaint and gave to atty. she's having it filed with a status quo order to protect the assets. In the wording it says he's been spending a lot . And he has but he'll probably say the December spending was Christmas and say I'm an ingrate cuz he got me a fancy phone but he took out almost 2 grand! Not including bills. I think he charged things too.

I got a call from an apartment complex. They asked if I was still interested in the apartment (meaning my husband ) I said no not at this time. I'll tell h all about it when I tell him about the divorce.

Here's something interesting. H went to marrriage counselor yesterday. He told me that today. I don't get it but it doesn't change anything. He obviously doesn't want me. Still being snotty sometimes. What is that? MLC jazz?


I am as nervous as can be. Had the complaint notarized and somehow lost the back page on way to fed ex. Then had to find someone else to noterize cuz bank was closed. Did the overnight ship and forgot another paper which mailed today. Jeeze! Now I gotta wait til thurs.

Did he say WHY he went to the marriage counselor? And why he went alone???

No and I didn't ask. Think I should have? Ask far as he knows I want to work on the marriage. But the fact is he crossed the bottom line yet again and I'll never trust him again. He is not expecting a divorce, maybe separation. So he will be surprised. H went to counselor alone cuz counselor suggested he could talk to us separately if we wanted.

Oh, is this a counselor you had seen before together?

If so - H may just be reaching out to the counselor for his own symptoms. Or may be trying to convince the counselor why he "has" to leave the marriage. Or trying to prepare the counselor to counsel you when he leaves. Or whatever.

You're right though - if you've reached the point where nothing he could do would make you feel comfortable in the marriage again - then you're done. That's when I finally let go of my marriage (my H had already moved out a couple of months before) - once I realized that even if he came crawling back totally repentant, after two previous affairs and reconciliations, I would never ever be able to relax in that marriage again.

I find myself feeling guilty for being silent about the divorce til it's filed. He's the cheater and I feel guilty. Im worried about how he'll react and if he'll be mad, relieved or sad. I want to get it over with and I keep rehearsing what I'm going to say in my head. Anyone else struggle like this? My sister said to remember what he's done and not just the affair but think about the whole marriage. It's not all h for the marriage but I never felt like I was no 1 with him.

Rachael,
I understand how you feel, but I can assure you, if he was doing the filing, he wouldn't feel one bit guilty about it. He most likely be teling folks about it. The difference between you and your h is that your moral compass is still intact as well as your empathy and compassion chips are still working properly.

Unless I am wrong, he's going to be relieved and yet angry too. He's not going to want to abide whatever is stated in the divorce paperwork, so prepare yourself for his anger and attitude.

It's time that Rachael spread her wings and fly a bit.

Thanks snodderly
I appreciate your advice very much. Some people in my family think i am being too nice and I should serve him at work but I have to live with myself and like people here said I should not lower myself . My attorney says to take the high ground and she says she has to be honest so she can sleep at night. Well me too. I want to be the better person. Still I am anxious and i still care about him. Thanks so much snodderly.

I also think you should take the higher ground. It doesn't cost you anything, and ultimately, you'll better about yourself. My L said that I should have my H come into the office and sign, in case he has any questions. Of course, my H knows, and yours does not.

Of course, you don't need to say anything to him. I imagine that all has been said and done, hence the D. Try not to worry too much, although I do understand.

"Feel" better .... please bring back the edit button.

Thanks bein me.
The job I got helps me although I do get little anxiety bouts here and there. But I really like the job. It's only part time though and my attorney says I have to at least look for a full time job or check into school. Or show that I'm doing that. Good luck finding full time work in mi. Also I don't know that I want to go to school in my mid 50s get done in late 50s and hope to get a full time job.
Thanks for your advice and support.

Hey, I'm at university, and I'm 55. It's something else that got me through the bad times, marriage/cancer, etc. My self esteem has improved a lot too. In my case, I want to write ... anything. I'm hoping to get a job as a copywriter, or do website content, and then continue with creative writing like poetry and my numerous novels, all incomplete, some just a page long with the outline.

How about registering for a 1 year diploma? At least, it's not a 4 year commitment, and it'll make you job ready quicker. Just a thought.

Keep up the positives.

Well I have an associates in legal assisting (med Mal ) my daughter just got a degree in that and she can't find a job. It has changed a great deal in the 23 years I've been out so I would have to return to school. Thing is I was under deadlines and had to bring work home. I was in an office and not amongst people as much as I'd like. I am a social person. This job I have now is around lots of people and its actually been just what I needed. I used to work at a hospital and I liked that but I have no degree in medical. I did check into school a few months ago. Costs a lot and I was wondering about my marketability after. I will do some more research to see what I can do. It's tough in the state of Michigan .
Thanks for your input!

Some thoughts -

- night school at the community college to pick up a specific skill that might be useful? Would also get you more "people" time

- use your social skills in a job with good tips - have you ever been a waitress? Some waitress jobs in upscale places can actually pay well.

- how wedded are you to living in Michigan? Would a move to a part of the country with a more vibrant economy (I hear San Antonio Tx is doing well) help you?

Thanks kml
Gotta stay here. 3 kids still at home 2 going to college the other one is looking for a job. Thank you for the other suggestions. Never been a waitress but I've done that kind of work at church. I will look further into the school thing.

Hi Rachael.

Just a quick idea ... my D25 did a 6 month course in medical filing clerk, which gave her a very needed position. She now works for the provincial government earning a good starting salary. She says you can work for hospitals, clinics, doctors, government offices (medical, of course). I don't know if there's such a diploma in MI, but if you like working in the medical field, why not check it out? She got hers at the local community college.

Take care.

Something like this?
http://www.baker.edu/career-explorer/career/health-administrative/

Thanks for the info. The atty is filing tomorrow. A paper was delayed on the mail. I'm nervous about his reaction. But my sister said remember what he's doin right now behind your back. I hope to be able to tell him on Friday.

Rachael,
I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. Pray for the strength and the proper way to advise him of the filing.

Good luck!

Thanks snoddery
I do need prayers!
I know people have advised me not to tell mom in law. But if ow goes with h I think he's planning on bringing her into the family circle. If my mom in law wants to know why I filed it seems that I should tell her. Otherwise what do I say? That we just can't get along? He told his mom it wasn't me but him. She'll wonder why I filed cuz she thinks I didn't want this.

Rachael,
I still think he should be the one to tell her because he is her son and she won't necessarily believe you. She has to see why w/her own eyes. However, the decision is yours as to whether you tell her or not, but I wouldn't say anything until after the papers have been filed/served. You don't want to tip your hand.

I wouldn't have a problem with telling his mom, once the papers have been filed and he has been served. Why should YOU have to suffer any ill thoughts from your MIL, when the truth is he cheated?

I would keep any discussion simple, private, and to the point - something like "MIL, you know I value our relationship and I have tried to make my marriage to your son work. But he is having an affair and shows no signs of stopping, so I have had to file for divorce".

Any questions she has, just tell her "I think you need to speak to your son about that"

Thanks all
I plan asking him when he's going to tell his mom. Like I expect it. Then tell him that if she wants to know I will have to say somthing but I prefer he do it. And I think it's a good idea to keep it short and tell her to talk to her son.

Papers were filed today. Just gotta wait for judge to sign. I'm a little anxious and depressed

My friend had a suggestion for talking to my husband about the divorce. Said I should take his phone from its hiding place, show it to him and tell him I know he's talking to ow . Should I ? She's worried about me talking to h alone but he's never been violent. He is more distant than ever and so am I. Probably pining for ow. I can't figure out why he's still here. He mentioned moving out about a week ago because he is the cause of problems. I said nothing and he dropped it .

1) No need for theatrics. Just tell him simply, calmly, that you know he's still talking to OW and that you have filed for divorce.

2) I'd pay heed to your friend's concern about you telling your H alone. If she thinks he might get violent, she might be picking up on some vibe that you're too close to to notice. I'm not sure what the best way to do this is - somehow it seems worse to have another person around to witness his shame - maybe you could tell him in some public place? Or have your friend come over immediately after?

My friend lives 3 hours away. She hasn't seen or talked to my husband in a long time. I could ask my oldest son to be around the block. My friend is worried cuz I told her that he's not the same person. That's in regards to the lying and sneaking around. He's always had a gripe about money where I'm concerned .
I never spent on fancy things but he always bought whatever he desired regardless of cost. So I have a little trepidation about that. Should I tell him that the divorce papers say he can't spend excessively and he can't change accounts?

Rachael,
Keep the conversation simple and to the point. Just tell him that you filed for a divorce based on the grounds that he's still involved w/the ow. You do not need to tell him what is in the divorce papers...that is his lawyer's job to explain it all to him.

If he is prone to violence or temper tantrums, have someone very close by, maybe in the next room just in case he goes off.

Once you have advised him that you have filed, walk away and do not engage in any additional conversations w/him. He will be angry and want to bait you...don't take the bait.

Thanks for your advice. Maybe I should leave the house? After I tell him. He is prone to angery outbursts. But hey, this seems to be what he wants. Still I expect him to deny any involvement and I'm his mind its okay to be friends. I know he wants more and I told him last month if he is contacting her I'm through.

Meant to say in his mind its ok to be friends with ow. (He really knows its not).

You will know after the conversation whether to leave the house for a bit or not.

I agree with Snodderly ... keep it brief, and simple. Have your son in the next room, or nearby, just in case. And, also for emotional support.

Again, I can see my H in yours ... I'm not a big spender either, but he will buy big items, and sometimes without telling me. This has been a big issue for me. When I worked, most of my money went on things for the house, groceries, and work clothes. I very seldom bought myself anything substantial. Oh well.

Good luck with telling your H.

Thanks you guys
I'm very glad to have your input!

Need advice
I was hoping to hear back from the attorney about whether the judge signed the papers. Haven't heard from her and it may not be til tues because she is going out of town. In the meantime my h texted me to ask me how I was and wants to go out to celebrate valentines day tomorrow. I don't get it! I don't want to pretend I'm still trying in this marriage. He's been cold and distant and now this? What should I say? I have not texted back and he texted this am. Thinking maybe ow turned him down or he's scared to leave. I know he was looking at apts. what do I do?

Thank him for the invitation, but you can always tell him that you are busy or going to visit w/someone over the weekend.

What if I said no thanks I don't feel like it? He's still at home. I don't have any one to hang around with tomorrow.

You could do that.

I just said no thanks. Don't know why I get all bent out of shape. I am tired of waiting for darn paperwork. My nerves are on edge.

It's understandable why your nerves are on edge. You are doing something that your h hasn't any idea is going to bite him in the rump. You have to chill and wait until next week. Monday is a Federal Holiday and I doubt that the judicial system will be open for business, but you may want to check into that. Most likely if the papers weren't filed today, they will be done early next week.

Stay calm!

Snodderly
I cracked a bit. I came home and h wanted to give me a hug. I didn't hug him back. Went to the church fish fry and he told me he wanted to spend the day with me wanted things to change(I have been through this with him before) said how bad things have been for him and I told him I got my own crap to deal with because of him and I don't want to listen. I told him I'm about done that I'm tired of being played and its been goin on for a year. I told him I knew he was talkin to ow did not say how. Told him I knew he wants to get her away from boyfriend. He denies and says she has her own life . Says there is nothing between them! What a lie! He will not directly answer my questions about speaking to her. I told him he underestimated me. I would not be accusing him unless I knew. So every time I asked if he spoke to her he just went back to "there's nothing going on". I said ok what if I pull the priest aside and have you tell me that in his presence? How bout with your hand on the bible? Said nothing.

I told him I was looking at a stranger. Someone I don't know. That there is something seriously wrong with him to live this dual life and lie to me. Told him he disgraced the family name and his dad would be so upset if he were alive. There we were at the noisy fish fry and having this talk. And I said because you will not come forward with the truth I have nothing further to discuss. I can't do this any more. Wanted me to go to stations of the cross and I said I can't you go. I couldn't take the denial anymore and I told him I had to go. Got up and walked home.That was a half hour ago. Who knows where he is. I just couldn't be quiet. I really don't know this man. I also asked him why he didn't tell his mom the real reason why we were having trouble and he said because I wasn't thinking it was over. Really? Then why tell her at all. He said He told everyone i wanted him to about thr affair without blinking an eye. True but he's been carrying on for a year without blinking an eye. Agh!!!!!!!! My sister said I could come over but I may stay here. See what plays out. Is this midlife madness or what?

Don't get it. Will not fess up to talking to ow. Says I'm to focused on that I should forget it. This IS the problem! H said he wouldn't talk to her and did. Wants me to be patient and hang out tomorrow. I said no . If he can't come clean there is nothing to talk about. Left and spent night at sisters. Told him I spoke to lawyer. Just don't care.

Rachael,
I'm sorry things turned out the way they did last evening.

Mlcers will not divulge their activities w/the ow for a very long time, if ever. Even though I knew about my xh's ow for a very long time, through a PI, he denied it each and every time it was pointed out to him by family and friends. I had been divorced for about 2 years when my bil passed away and he started contacting me about the funeral services. One thing led to another and I managed to trip him up and he admitted that she was still in his life. From then on, he's not denied her to anyone. What I'm trying to say is that they go to great lengths to keep the op a secret for as long as possible.

Today is a new day and I hope you are feeling better. I know it's difficult when you are thinking of ending a marriage and know that your spouse has not been faithful or truthful w/you, but I want you to know that you will be okay.

Thinking of you. I hope that you are okay.

I keep replaying everything in my head. The overall vibe I get is that h is still not humbled by what he's done. Is this another empty gesture? It's the same conversations we've had before. No word from him today. Tired of this . Sometimes I have guilt over the whole mess. If I only didn't do this on the past etc.

Rachael,
Your man is in mlc and he isn't going to feel humbled until he's gone through the entire crisis. Right now, he wants to sweep everything under the carpet and continue status quo. He looks to you as if you are a friend. He knows what he stands to lose if a divorce takes place.

You are expecting your h to react the way he did pre-crisis...not going to happen for a very long time. Keep your expectations at zero at all times.

The question I have for you today is this...are you sure you want to go through w/a divorce? If you are filing as a knee jerk reaction or in anger, then you aren't ready. If you aren't sure, then you need to pull the papers back.

Well as I mentioned before, it's the trust. I believe I'm being played. I ignored him for 2 weeks then boom wants to try? I will always have this mistrust. I wonder if she rejected him. Then the disrespect in the way I'm treated and being stingy with money re certain repairs when he spends more than that to eat out sometimes. I look onto his face and find he can lie with no prob. All these things go thru my mind. He can't stay with me. I want him to get out. I have to think more about what I need to be happy. It's not just the affair but the whole marriage. I guess neither one of us was happy but he was more of a loner. Doing his own thing many times. Felt like he didn't like being around us.maybe it was boring for him.

Is it me? Or what? My husband and I talked again and he lied and said the tracphone was for work. I told him I am through because he betrayed me yet a third time by talking to her. He finally said "she is my friend and because I can't talk to you, I talked to her" WHAT! I said are you blaming me? H said no but you're twisting my words. You are judge and jury and I said How? he said because I am not taking any blame for our marriage problems. I told him I was sorry and I made changes and he said "do you think that makes up for the two years of problems?" I said "do you hear yourself?" He's mad because I watched his every move since he's betrayed me. He told me talking to her was not wrong, then he said maybe it was wrong, then he said it was wrong. I told h I did listen to him talk back in the summer. I begged him for affection and was rebuffed. He said you know why? Cuz he was numb. But he wasn't numb about her. H is defending his actions. Putting blame on me and then saying he's not blaming me. This conversation was unreal. He's trying to say that I'm the one who's nuts . I told him several times its over and he says no it's not. You don't know what you're talking about. There's nothing between us. She's my friend. I told him she's lying behind her boyfriends back by talking to h. And he defends her! Anyway while we were talking he got a text from his buddy because they were going out for a drink and he's reading the damn text while I'm talking. So finally because I am upset that he's doing this crap and defending himself, he said I got him all upset and he's goin out to get a drink. I think he's off his rocker and he says see? I can't talk to you.

Yes, Rachael, I would give it long and serious thought. Although, a divorce doesn't mean the end, but it costs a lot.

Sorry about your "crack" last night, but you know, sometimes we have to do that just for own sanity's sake.

Sending positive thoughts your way.

H came back and told me to do what I'm gonna do but he isn't leaving. Cuz it's his house. I said I will. He try's to talk about my blame but I said it doesn't hold a candle to what he's done. He said he took on my son and was there for me when I had a serious accident. I wasn't hurt but someone else was. He finally admitted he was wrong but something's wrong with him. I tried to leave the house to get out but since I was upset he wouldn't let me. Then he's putting the moves on me. Kissing me and I told him not to do it. When I wanted it he Wouldn't give it and when I don't want it he won't leave me alone.

H is asking me yet again to give him another chance but the conversation is still a repeat of before. What will change. If he talked to the ow because he felt she was the only one who would listen what's going to change the next time he can't talk to me? She still works in the building 2 miles down. Still doesn't think his talking to her on private phone is betrayal. I heard him tell her in jan that he wanted her, not me. Won't admit it says the same old stuff he said when I first caught him. I told him I'm through. Either he or I can go. Doesnt want to leave or for me to go and not throw away 23 years of marriage. I told him he should have thought about that before contacting her yet again. Says I'm being too hard. How can I trust him ever again?

How can I trust him ever again?

Sometimes it's useful to think about what that would look like. If you separated/divorced, if he spent a year going to therapy and making his life 100% transparent to you, if he called OW with you on the line and told her he wasn't going to have any further contact with her and that he regretted putting his marriage in jeopardy over her?

Remember, if he's REALLY sincere about wanting you back, he would do all these things, and separation or divorce would not deter him. I think your bullsh!t meter is correct and he just doesn't want to have to deal with any consequences of his actions - as evidenced by his lack of true remorse, he keeps trying to put the blame on you.

I agree with kml, Rachael. Have you told him what you need from him, in order to start on that road to reconciliation? Or, are you just finished?

I hear him talking and the thing is for me, his affection for her has taken a part of his heart that was rightfully mine. Just a month ago he was telling her he didn't love me, wanted her. Now what has changed. He says they changed when my son had his emotional outburst, although my h was still distant.

When I became distant then he starts to pick up his head and take notice. There is still resistance from him in giving out facts about talking to ow. If I say anything derogatory about her he doesn't like it. I just feel that the emotional attachment is still there. He denies it but I don't believe him. He wants me to get over what he said a month ago that's in the past. Well I did forgive twice. I can't get over this. Last month I told him he was cold and I believed he was contacting ow. He Said I was wrong and I had to stop this. I was not wrong, obsessed or crazy. I brought this up. He's more afraid of my reaction so he has to call up ow and tell her things that are none of her business. He let her in. He calls it bad judgment. I call it betrayal. He said he can't afford to move out. Spent a lot on a trip and bills. My overall feeling is not positive it feels like a replay and ill get burned again.

Rachael,
Trust your gut instinct. From your postings, I see a man who is in panic mode and is desperate to keep things status quo. I see a man who is providing lip service, but not action to prove that he wants to recommit to the marriage and work on things. However, you are the only one that knows whether or not your h can be trusted. Can he look you in the eyes and hold eye contact? Does he look everywhere but at you when he's talking? What has he done thus far to show/prove to you that he wants to stay married?

I see a man who is afraid of what will happen when a divorce takes place. I see a very desperate man.

Yes snodderly
My gut says its all talk. Trying to deflect and change the subject. I'm an easy mark. He knows how to get me. He went to exercise and go talk to his friend. Well how about gettin me flowers or cooking a meal or asking me what he can do? I told him his best efforts fell far short. This weekends conversations told me this: that its all about him, that she most probably gave him the boot, that he has feelings for her because he defends her, the unwillingness to say he is wrong is being defensive and asking me if I'm willing to throw this marriage away (among other things said like that) is trying to place blame on me and get the focus off him. My gut says the changes will be shot lived and then back to crap again.

Rachael,
You've told him how you feel, now you will need to step back. Try not to allow him to engage you in any more discussions about the situation. He knows that what he did was very wrong and yes, he's trying to deflect the guilt and blame on to you. No one made him have an ea or pa w/the ow. He did that all by himself. He took the easy route out of trying to work on his issues. Had he been a stronger person w/a good moral compass, he would have tried to work things out w/you and a MC.

If he comes at you again for more discussion, just tell him you do not wish to discuss it any further. Your h knows what buttons to push to get you to react. You are the only one that is mature enough to control your actions.

Rachael,

If you were DONE, you'd not be posting as you are. Given you aren't DONE, why close the door on your M?

This is the deal. H had an affair. No reason to resist reality there.

Are you willing to try to heal the M? If so, do it.

-- STOP expecting H to mind read.
-- STOP wanting H to magically change the past. He has not treated you to date as you would like. THAT is never going to change. Perhaps though, there is space for a healthy R in the future.

How about an email:

"H, I can make no promises, but I am open to seeing if we can heal our marriage. Here are some non-negotiables for me:

1
2
3

Here are some things I would like:

1
2
3

Please send similar lists to me. If we try this, we are in it together. We both have faults, we both have pain, we both have shame, we both need to heal. If we heal individually and together, then perhaps we have a chance after all."

Dear old timer
One month ago he told ow he wants her not me. He was looking for apts. he is still lying to me. My non negotiable is lying. I don't trust him. He is doing nothing to back up what he says. He is always gone. When he is here he watches tv. Doesn't interact much. All of a sudden he wants to work on it because what? She dumped him? How many times do I go through this? It's the same thing as before. I wasn't happy before all this. Cuz I felt unimportant, not respected. I believe he can't stop contacting her. I don't want to live this way.

Of course you don't want to live that way. But nor are you DONE. So what does it hurt about trying to find a way to make things work well for YOU. Trying doesn't mean you settle for an unsatisfactory outcome.

Rachael, I can see you are angry and hurt. But I think it's good advice from OT to write those lists and post them. OT is right, you are not done.

AJ

I disagree. Rachael's husband has a secret cell phone on which he is still contacting OW, is telling OW he wants her, is looking at apartments - sure, he MIGHT snap to his senses once he realizes his W is not waiting around any longer to be plan B, but that wouldn't be enough. He's got a long road ahead of him to prove his good intentions at this point - and a separation might be just what it takes.

Also, he's still LYING about all of it.

He's not showing any good faith effort.

My husband has been cold and disrespectful for a long time. I know I will get burned again. I warned him that if he spoke to ow again I was done. This is the 3rd time. The minute he feels secure, or mad at me he will run right back to her. She has become his confidant. I am sticking to what I said for a change. No more door mat.

I didn't go back to my maiden name, either. It didn't feel right and everyone knows me professionally by my married name. However, I've been contemplating the name Kairos as it means..the right or opportune moment. I like that. Who knows?

Rachael,

I'm certainly not suggesting that you be a door mat! Rather, have an open mind and be direct. Clearly articulate some requirements and some desires, ask him to be the same, and have an open mind to see what happens.

The idea is to work on boundaries to see where they get you.

Rachael, I certainly wasn't suggesting being a doormat either. And KML, I'm not saying she should be option B. I've been there. I know better

What I'm suggesting is for Rachael. And only for Rachael. She is not done. As such, setting the boundaries and taking the approach to list out what she will and will NOT accept, can be helpful.

I can see lying is one thing she won't accept. I applaud that and agree. But what else?

Having that clear structure can be helpful when emotions are involved. It's worth it to write it down, Rachael. Even if you don't reconcile things with your H. This suggestion was about you and only YOU. Rather, my agreement with the suggestion is only about you. I can't speak for others, but I saw it that way from OT as well.

Peace,
AJ

I had a very long talk with h last night. He wrote down changes he would make . Thing is he still insists that what I said was his phone in his pocket, was his wallet. His wallet is fat the phone isn't. He makes me question myself. I snooped and found out he is taking all cash out of investments as of today. Also a text from an unknown to meet h at a restaurant on thurs. he insists yet again it's over but I don't believe it. I'm tortured by this. What do I do?

Decided to have him served to protect assets. Gotta do it at home or his work place.

I would suggest his home. There is no need to cause a scene.

As for the rest, what did you tell him? Did you tell him you need to be able to trust him? Did you make that list?

I envy you being able to talk to your H. That's a very helpful thing even if you need him to earn your trust.

Hang in there. And think about what it is that's important to you. It'll be useful later either with H or with somebody else. With H if you have to continue to deal with him no matter what happens to the relationship. And you will likely have to deal with him as the years go on.

Peace,
AJ

Rachael - you did the right thing to protect your assets. You are not paranoid or crazy - you know what you've found. He's been gaslighting you.

Does this mean he's not conflicted and hoping to reconcile (while still eating his cake?) - who knows. Right now you just need to protect yourself financially - if he's really a man who can't live without you, he'll step up to the plate when he sees what he's losing. Otherwise - well, you deserve a man who takes better care of you.

Rachel,

AJM is correct, this is all about YOU, what is best for you.

By all means, don't doubt yourself. Adults don't get texts from unknown numbers inviting them to dinner. You are not crazy. Even if you have a detail wrong here or there, you have a realistic perspective on a situation that he is lying to you about.

I agree that you are doing well to protect your financial position. I think that keeping business matters purely business is the best thing at this point, no matter how things end up. Too many people try to manage the other person's feelings by sacrificing their financial stability. Doesn't really work out well.

H's denial about stuff is just about him not being able to face his own stuff than about you, probably even moreso. That doesn't mean it is OK. It just means that likely he can't even be honest with himself.

If I were in your position, I would require:

(1) Clear no contact communication that I personally witnessed.
(2) A clear commitment from H to get help: maybe see a counselor who you are sure is clear on his sexual behavior, or go to ten 12-step program of some sort (clearly he is out of control)

In the meantime, try any sort of co-dependents group. Al-anon, S-anon, Codependents anonymous, etc... The feelings of going crazy are perfectly normal. But you aren't crazy.

I agree with everyone ... protect yourself financially. Have those assets frozen if need be. At least, they'll still be assets dually owned. This is an emergency, as far as I can tell. If he's hiding financial stuff from you, and you've found out one detail, imagine what else he's hiding.

You are NOT crazy ... your H is, but he thinks he's sane. That's the sad part.

Rachael,
Your h has been gaslighting you. Stay the course that you've set sail for and protect your assets.

Alanon really help me see that I wasnt the crazy one. It truly help me in ways these boards could not.

It also provide me a network of local friends and confidants outside my regular group that I was not comfortable sharing my problems with.

It took me months and months to see the gaslighting in my life. Protect yourself financially but also take care of your own mental health through C, Alanon, these boards etc.

We love you and you are not crazy

Yeah - even though there were no addiction problems involved in my divorce on either side, my friend gave me the Alanon book The Courage to Change, which was quite helpful.

Thank you . I had h served at work today. I asked the servuer to be discreet as I didn't want to embarrass him. The server called me and said it was quiet and discreet. My h waited a couple hours and told me he is going to have a beer with his friends and wants to talk to me. I think I want to tell him to live on his own for a time and get his life together. I think I need to be without him for a time. I don't know what he's going to say but yesterday the things he agreed to do and words said were said before with very little improvement. He wants me to be patient but I did this for over a year. If he really wanted me wouldn't he be here asking what he can do? Instead of running to the guys maybe he should run to me.

Amen.

I think I want to tell him to live on his own for a time and get his life together. I think I need to be without him for a time.

This sounds like a good plan. If he protests that he's going to do this or that for you - remind him he can still woo you from his own apartment if so inclined. (And you can decide, at that time, whether you're interested in dating him or not).

Also - beware any attempts to soothe you that are just to provide cover for him to raid the finances. Stand your ground about the financial stuff.

H has been pleading for me to give another. chance. Told him I found a receipt for a restaurant from 2 weeks ago. Said he went with a guy. Wouldn't give a name. I said you paid for dinner the other person had hot tea that's a woman. He said what of we did? You're going to go crazy over this . Every time I answer you get upset. I told him he's got to face my upset. This lie is another nail in the coffin . Said he can't afford to move. Texted the ow told her what she helped do. She's a cold fish.

IMHO, your H isn't ready to come back to the M. He's still lying, so what does that say about any future with him now. He does need to be on his own, for his sake and yours.

This is hard won experience for me. My H ... never mind, just take my word for it.

Just remember, it's your life ... not his, or ours, or your parents. YOURS ... do what you feel would be the right thing, then follow through. If you don't, you'll be backwards and forwards, and your H will use you anyway he can, at any given time when thinks you're vulnerable.

Take care, and stand firm.

Texted the ow told her what she helped do. She's a cold fish.

WHO texted the OW - you, or him???

If your H is sincere, he can perfectly well woo while staying on a friend's couch or at a family member's house.

But I agree, it seems pretty obvious that your H is upset he can't have his cake and eat it too, but not being very sincere and truthful about owning his own responsibility here.

Stick to your guns.

I meant to say:
"If your H is sincere, he can perfectly well woo YOU while staying on a friend's couch or at a family member's house. "

You are doing the right thing. I can only imagine how hard it is to stick to your guns. Hang in there. You deserve a man who worships YOU.

I texted ow. She says she broke it off in July. She said shes been in a serious relationship since then.I asked her why continued contact. She said they had a lot in common. She said the texts were brief. I told her what she did to my family and how she did what she claims her ex husband did. That is to lie and betray. I called her cruel. She said she's not cruel and she told me things from her side and she has no feeling for my h like that. I ended the conversation by saying she was cold, lying and deceitful.

My h told me he lied about dinner with her because he talked to the atty who told him to say nothing. My h won't leave because he can't afford it. Doesnt want to stay at his moms cuz her sistet is dyiing and shes already stressed out. he dorsnt want to add this to the mix.He told me he took the money out of that investment acct to pay bills and the company had to mail it. He told me he would show me the check. That it was for a couple thousand.H told me me it was like he's been liviming in an illusion. He cried this morning because he's under terrible pressure at work and because of all the wayps he failed. FINALLY I see some remorse! He hated that he cried. I told hm I should be able to see that and it shows some sincerity . Cuz he rarely cried . Thinks its weak. Said he is not contesting the divorce and is begging for another chance. Promises to make changes. I still love this man

Will he go to marriage counseling?

Yes. I want him to come home a little earlier from work and I especially want him to watch finances which he is willing but there's some reluctance. He agreed to keep track if his spending for a month then said two weeks. I'm going to insist. But he doesn't like being told what to do which is a problem. Our relationship has always been kind of competitive. I don't know why but he always likes to challenge me when I say things.

What are your boundaries?

I need help on that. I asked him to decrease spending. Want him to come home earlier. He agreed to come home by 7 ,3 nites a week when he is not working but I am going to ask him to leave a half hour earlier in am. He has to work 9 hours a day and drives about 45 min to work. I want manners like please , thank you, excuse me. Which he balked at in the past but agrees to now. He ageed that I will do bills because I'm on time. I told him no contact whatsoever with ow. But I said that before. Want him to help around house more. Spend Sundays together as a family or just us. He wants to go out to dinner every weekend I said fine but not always expensive restaurants. Take out is good too. I want more affection as well. Got any advice? He tends to balk if he thinks he's being bossed.

He agreed to come home by 7 when he is not working out at the gym is what I meant to say.

My advice is to get him to go see a (good) marriage counselor with you. He needs to hear some of this from a third party. If he's not willing to go, he's not sincere.

Thanks. He agreed to see a therapist. Guess we'll go from there. He still wants to negotiate when I ask for some things. That' stubborn stuff bugs me.

My h says he'll do anything to save the marriage but its not quite so. He's always had control issues with me and the kids. I mentioned I hated an ugly old bookcase in living room and he agreed to get rid of it if I got wall to wall carpet which I hate. I have hardwood which needs refimishing. It's things like that even now. Why if he's so sorry, keep trying to dicker with me?

Why does he continue to do this to you? It's called control, being manipulative and also being a bully. It's gone on in your family for a long time and he's not going to change unless the dynamics of how you deal w/him change. There are times when he's gaslighting you to make you think you are the crazy one...you are not. Stand up for what you think is right and do not waiver from your morals and opinions.

My sister gave me some advice. Said to talk to him differently tonight. Talk about the issues we have in a different way. So for instance the book case. Suggest in a pleasant way that I was thinking if h likes it so much how about putting it downstairs and how about we work on it together this weekend? Maybe get take out and start decluttering. She said you could tell h to think about it. If he's negative I can say ok I see and just keep track of his willingness to do anything. This will be telling. I thought it was a good idea. If he keeps knocking everything I guess he's not serious.

I think your sister has a great idea. Try talking to him in a different manner. Make suggestions as to how to arrange things in the home, i.e., bookcase. This will allow him to make some decisions (and you will have gotten what you wanted in a roundabout way).

Hang in there!

Part of me feels that the table may be set so to speak. Tiring to get h to watch spending and that includes how much spent going out. Wants to still go out to dinner 2 nights a week. Told him one night could be take out. We will see. This long history of him having the last word has to be changed. This is going to be a non negotiable for me.

H told me ow emailed him and asked how he was. He said he did not reply. Hope so.

Still spending money. Stopped at the bank 3 separate times mon and took out $60. Each time. Making huge credit card payments. I'm watching this week. I don't want to continue contending with the spending issues not to mention trust.