The good news is .. my H wants to come home.
The bad news is .. my H wants to come home.
I first joined this site in 2005. My H and I had been married 20 years. It was a good marriage but almost overnight he went from a good man, husband and father to someone I didn't know. He did all the usual MC stuff .. motorcycle, young girlfriend, DUI's, verbal abuse, etc.
We D in 2007 but he never quite "cut the cord" with me. He lived with OW for 5 years. They are now over for several months, he has quit drinking, he sounds like the "old H" and wants to come home. I don't know. This will be a slow process, if it happens at all.
Anyway, just know that sometimes they DO come back .. and it will be up to you (like it's up to me now) if they can return.
Valeria - I remember you so well!! [I post under a different name now] I always thought your h would come out of it, eventually,and I also thought it might take a while!!
Sooo good to hear from you.
Do you remember Baseball Annie, and Lisette, and all those good people?? Holly too.
Valeria,
I'm glad you came back to post. Wow! How do you feel about your xh wanting to return home? He is showing/proving to you that he wants to reconcile? I don't mean just saying the words, but actually showing you that he means it.
Val, it's going to take a lot of hard work and patience....I wish you and your family all of the best. But, yes, it is ultimately up to you as to whether you want to reconcile w/him.
Hi Beatrice.
Thanks for the welcome.
I don't recognize your new name but yeah ..I remember all those posters from "the day"!!
Hi Snodderly --
I never thought I would be back. I thought my story was a done deal!
He is very different this time. He always stayed in touch but his calls were sporadic and I never knew what kind of mood he would be in. I decided not to take his calls anymore.
He began calling again in July but I didn't answer his calls. He tricked me by calling from a different # about a month ago and I answered. In a nutshell, we have been talking frequently and he is the "old H" again. I was even able to (politely) unload a lot of old resentment and frustration in our phone convo last Sat. night. It was very therapeutic for me. He listened w/o interrupting and accepted full blame. He has apologized about 1,000 times so far. He even answered questions that always bugged me but I never thought I would get an answer to. Before, he would either change the subject or hang up so this is very different.
He is trying to rush things to come back but I'm not having it. I told him that it took him 6 years to break it and it won't be an overnight fix. I'm going to be a hard sell this time. Very slow until I'm absolutely sure.
Val,
You are very wise to take it one step at a time and yes, you are absoluely correct...it took 6 long years to break it and w/hard work and total honesty, it will take quite some time to get to a place where you feel comfortable and can trust him again.
Val, I am very happy to see he's finally come back to earth and realized what he had done and can now see that you are the "prize". I'm praying for you and your family.
WOW!!!!!!!
What do you want?
Valeria,
I think I remember you as well. All I want to say is that
there's great risk in rushing this
and very little downside to taking it slow.
Plus, to be blunt, he's in no position to rush you, at all.
Why'd the OW R end?
IOW, what changed in HIS life that he now wants to go back to his old?
How's your life been without him?
What have you created for yourself, and what if anything,
are you willing to give up for a new one with him?
Having said all this, don't mistake my questions for a lack of delight at the turn of events.
I am glad, very. Good for you.
But make this about what you really want now, to be haoppy
and not just "winning" at it, you know?
Good luck!
Snodderly -- thank you for your prayers. And I especially thank you for your wise guidance during the years I was on this board.
Trusting -- The only thing I know for sure is that I want lots of time to make the right decision. I learned to make a life without him and if I choose to let him back into my life, it will be at my pace and on my terms. He is already respecting that because he has backed off on "pushing" to come home.
V, I remember you. I think if I remember correctly, your X was pretty mean?
I guess regardless it is rather gratifying to get the apology.
I am writing this as my X is here playing w/D. I could see him wanting to come back, but my fear is that it would be all nostalgia and "gosh, it's hard to make it financially w/o Forward" and not a genuine interest in me.
25 Years:
I probably answered some of your questions when I posted to Trusting.
I didn't ask him why the R with the OW ended. I always knew it was doomed because he was 26 years older than her and their R was violatile. Plus, he never quit calling me. She wasn't the real reason for his MLC anyway so I don't give her that much importance.
What happened that he wants to go back to the old? I think it was getting all the MLC crap out of his life. His health became an issue so he had to give up drinking and smoking. With no alcohol to fog his brain, I think clarity finally returned and then he got rid of OW. I always heard that it takes a crisis to end a crisis -- I think his health and fear of dying with lot of unfinished business was his crisis.
It took me a long time to accept that my life with H was over. We were married 20+ years. Time was my enemy but also my ally. As time went by, I finally accepted that H wasn't coming home and I began to concentrate on the terrible things he had done during the MLC. I didnt want THAT man back under any circumstances. I still don't (although I don't really see any signs of the MLC alien lurking within him anymore).
I'm not sure that I want to give up my new life. I don't want to marry H again. He tells me he love me but I can't say it back -- not yet anyway. That bothers him but there are consequences to bad behavior and I think he understands that now.
If we can begin a R that has boundaries, then we might be able to eventually take it a step further. He has to earn my trust. Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible to ever trust someone who has hurt you to the extent that H hurt me. I'm willing to give him a chance but I've got lots of walls between us.
I never stopped loving the "old H" and in the past 6 years I haven't met anyone who could come close to taking his place. I finally stopped trying. I want H to break down those walls and I hope that it can happen someday.
Do you detect confusion within me? On one hand, I want him in my life and on the other hand, I'm afraid to let him back in. If it doesn't happen, I'll be fine -- but I don't think that H will ever be completely out of my life.
Thanks for your insightful questions.
Hi Forward
Yep, H was mean when he drank. He also got into a lot of legal jams. It was his drinking -- more than the OW -- that was the real issue for me.
Until recently, our phone calls centered on the kids or business. He never asked about me or my welfare. But the past several phone calls have been ALL about me. That's what made me know that the "old H" was coming back.
Until they show a real interest in YOU, then they're not ready to come home IMO.
Valeria
I don't remember your whole story, but I certainly remember your 'name'. I think hearing that there are MLCers that start to come out of the fog gives all of us reason to smile..and in some cases, hope.
Something worth having and cherishing, is something worth waiting for. There's no reason to rush into anything, and I know you realize that. I hope your H does too.
You sound so well, and I'm so hoping this all goes the way you wish it to..whichever way that may be when the time comes.
Creed, I remember you, too, and the value I always placed on your posts.
My H was extreme MLC. If HE can come out of the fog, then there's hope for everyone!!!
I appreciate your good wishes.
Valeria I am so Happy for you.
Hope for everyone? Hmmm I dont know. My ex has since gotten married to his 26 yr. old girlfriend and had a baby.
I want a relationship with my son, that now lives with him and no longer speaks to me, but I dont know about ex.
I will always love him, but i have gotten stronger over the last 3 yrs.
I would be VERY shocked if he EVER wanted me back.
He STILL doesnt speak to me, not even about our son.
Congrats to you though. You went thru alot and you deserve the best. Make him work for it!
Renee
Valeria, I changed my name and stopped posting for a long while as I suspected that my xh had found the site. My old name was quite like my real one. Probably paranoia, but he was batchit crazy for a long time
He is much less mean and crazy these days, and we have been exchanging emails for the past few months. He seems more like himself, and has built a life for himself which I am really pleased about. I think he is unwilling or unable to face some of his actions, as they were so painful and destructive.
I went through a period of wondering if I wanted to be friends with someone who had caused so much hurt [in our case there is nothing more], and decided that actually I did. Like you I have not met anyone who comes close to my h, and would not settle for second best.
I would say my xh is inching out of MLC. Much more interested in others thee days, and was concerned recently that I had cut my finger. Three years ago if I had fallen off a cliff face and broken every bone in my body he would have, maybe, expressed chilly sympathy. To a third party.
Would I want more than friendship if it were offered? Ummm I truly do not know. I do not know what depth of emotional engagement my xh is capable of, and I have come to see that, for me at any rate, being with someone is about emotional intimacy.
It is good to have the choice, and good to have closure, whatever your decide.
Are you enjoying this phase? does it make you feel good, rather than simply vindicated,in spite of the confusion?
It is good to know that some of them do come out of it.
Hi Sunshine
You are right that some people never come out of the fog and realize what they have lost. I think most of them have moments of clarity - and possible regret - but not all.
That's why it is so important to focus on yourself and your happiness.
Sometimes the hurt outweighs the hope of reconciliation. That's actually what I'm struggling with right now.
I'm glad you're getting stronger.
Beatrice, lol, I'm still trying to figure out your old username!!
As for my XH, even during the worst of it, I never completely stopped loving him - I just didn't want to be around him. I don't think vindication is the right word to explain my feelings right now. I wish the MLC had never happened. I feel a deep sadness for all we lost. I also feel compassion for H because, in spite of all the meanness and hurt he caused me and our family, he hurt himself more. He is a broken man and is reaching out to me. I'm weighing the hurt he caused me against the compassion I feel for him. It's a tough decision
I think it's common for them to be in denial about the hurt and destruction they caused. My XH couldn't (wouldn't) face up to it until very recently. He used to blame me for everyting. Now he blames only himself and asked for forgiveness.
It's good that your H is inching out of MLC but it's a long and slow process. It's so important to think about yourself and enjoy your life as much as you can if you choose to wait it out.
My H wanted me to stay right where he left me - it gave him a sense of unlimited time to continue his bad behavior. He didn't want me to get a life without him. When he finally sensed that I wasn't waiting in the wings for him anymore, I think that helped rush the end of the MLC. I wish I had realized this sooner.
Best wishes.
Valeria, I think when i said vindicated, I meant for believing it was a MLC, when some at the time we were posting, were trying to say it didn't exist, and they were simply WAS. [Remember IMP?]
I relate to all you have said - the compassion, their brokenness. I also think they feel pretty worthless. My private theory is that when they are in MLC they think somehow they we will always be there, and it is only as they come out of it that they realise we have moved on, or are doing so.
So moving on and GALing don't have much impact on them when they deep in the crisis. They do not really see anything else that is going on except through their own distorting glass . . .
Valeria, I remember you from the time I was on the board so frequently so long ago, I have read this thread of yours and it brought a smile to my face, good luck hun do what your gut instinct tells you and take it one day at a time xxxxxxxxxxx
Thanks Mandyloo - Good luck to you, too.
25Years asked me some questions that I have been pondering about.
One of them was what I thought was the reason for H's return. I said that I thought it was health reasons and facing his mortality with unfinished business. That's true but - after thinking about it some more - I also think that it was a little more involved.
With the economy affecting everyone, H could not find work in the state where we live. He had to relocate (temporarily) to a different part of the country. This is actually the first time since 2005 that H has been on his own (without OW). The job also required sobriety so he couldn't drink anyway.
OW was a heavy drinker so she contributed to his dependency on alcohol.
I think it was time away on his own with a clear (sober) mind to see the situation as it really is. He had time to think and he did. So, in a nutshell, it was the fact that he was forced to quit drinking and OW wasn't around to influence him that he finally woke up. His health issues were, of course, also a big factor.
Val
what, if any, financial issues are involved here?
Not being overly cynical I hope, but I think it's important to know.
Would you be helped hurt or unaffected by a recon?
And your ex h?
25 Years:
When we first married, H was broke - bankruptcy, terrible credit, etc., mostly due (once again!) to his drinking. H suffers from a bi-polar disorder that is only triggered by alcohol.
I helped him to stop drinking, get back in his career field, re-establish his credit, pay off his bills, etc. His career took off. He became very successful over the 20+ years we were married and not once did he drink - until 2005.
In early 2005, my mom had a critical health issue and was in ICU for over a month. She was hospitalized for 3 months total, and I was the sole sibling to be with her. I was at the hospital 10-12 hours a day. I had to quit my job to take care of her after she was discharged.
H was starting up a new company at that time and I had promised to help him when this terrible crisis with my mom arose. H traveled a lot due to the nature of the job, and during this time he began drinking again. His bi-polar disorder re-surfaced. That's when the young girlfriend, the Harley Davidson, etc., began.
Over the course of several months, H was arrested on a variety of charges (one of them was domestic abuse with the OW), and several DUI's. He lost his company and then had trouble finding work in his field.
I saw the writing on the wall. I knew that it was only a matter of time before he would be broke and filing bankruptcy again (just like before we married). So I made sure that his name was taken off our house, savings accounts, etc. I filed for divorce on the charges of adultery and asked for everything I could get. It wasn't out of vindiction but because I knew I would need to sell these things to support myself.
That's exactly what happened. By selling all the material things we acquired over the course of our marriage, I have been able to stay afloat.
The economy and the fact that H's reputation all but ruined him in his career field caused him to temporarily relocate to another part of the country to work. He still makes decent money but the creditors are breathing down his neck and he owes everybody.
H is brilliant in his field but his reputation for drinking has made employers wary. He knows that I can keep him sober and be successful once again, but ... do I want to save him again?
I told him I would never remarry him. Part of it is because of financial reasons. My credit is secure and I barely have enough to keep myself afloat for a few more years until I hit retirement age. I think he wants to come home bad enough that he would never jeopardize our relationship over alcohol again, but .. do I want to take that chance?
Sorry for the length of this post but you hit on an issue that is the basis for my worries. I appreciate any and all insight.
V
Why does good news have to come with bad news? Why not just a riddle? Oh wait ... I think his good news includes some riddles. I hope you find answers to then that you can be comfortable with.
I understand your saying you won't weddin him agin. I work with a lady that had a MLC H, and the D. His new OW lasted the typical couple years and when they parted he spent a couple more working on his state of confusion. After buying a house on the same street he became friends with his original LBS. They now travel and show dogs again, their old original hobby. They rent separate rooms on the road, but share good times. They now enjoy family holidays with their grown kids again, and are best friends again.
She was the first to explain to me that the best revenge is to live the better life. Keep living your better life and if there is any room in it for an old best friend, that may be the right way to lean. Give your gut feelings a little time and don't rush it. If he is serious about getting back to his best life, he will understand that this may take time and he must show he can, instead of saying he can.
what he said^^^^, big time.
Good to see you Was2.
Was2Sad:
I'm tickled pink to know you are still around and even posting on my thread!!!!
I like that scenario of "best buds". I can see H and myself going that route. He might have a different opinion but he doesn't get a vote. He broke it so I get to call the shots, lol!
Yep, time is key. I think most of my posts have stressed that I want time .. lots and lots of time.
I agree with Was2Sad. And your own instinct not to rush things. I don't doubt that your h is sincere in wanting to return, and is very very sorry. BUT I am not convinced he has resolved any of his underlying issues. However, many people never do, and manage to keep themselves afloat.
The best buddies sounds like a good scenario to me, until and if you want more.
Maybe it is time to think again about the dynamic of your marriage/relationship and what made it work. Who put the effort in and where? This will be a new relationship for you both, even if it remains a friendship, and perhaps you might want to review old patterns that you would want to avoid this time around . . .
In my growing friendship with my xh I am much more affirming of him, because I recognise now just how fragile his ego is. But I do not want to prop him up or help him like I realise I used to. Unhealthy for me and for him. I accept who he is and celebrate the positive changes in him. I think he has been through h*ll, and is far from out of the dark place.
Hi Beatrice
H is a work in progress. He has not resolved all of his issues but he recognizes them. I think that is huge progress. He seems to want to fix the mistakes he made and be a good man again.
It won't all happen overnight. It will take time.
(There's that word again .. time!!! lol!)
It's good to know that you and your XH are making progress in your R and I hope it continues to grow positively in every way.
I re-read my post (re: finances) and wish that I had phrased it better.
I am currently living below poverty level. The "assets" that I acquired in my divorce weren't that many and I am barely keeping my head above water. I worked for almost 30 years but quit to take care of my mom. Going back to work is not an option for me.
I also asked for everything I could get in my divorce because I knew that H would lose it all to creditors in time. Also, I wanted to preserve as much as I could in case H and I ever reconciled at a future date. I had to file on grounds of adultery in order to accomplish this. Of course, everything is gone now because it took H six years to wake up and I needed the money to survive.
I haven't stepped foot in a beauty salon in two years. I haven't bought any new clothes in two years. I have learned to stretch a dollar and make-do or do without.
H is on probation with his job but he still makes a good salary. Unfortunately, most of it goes to creditors. He mentioned he might be able to help with the mortgage payments on our house. He hasn't lived here in 6 years but his name is still on the mortgage loan (I got a quit claim on it so that his creditors couldn't touch it). If he could do that, it would help me tremendously.
I have had to cash in my work retirement account but am hopeful that I can stretch it out until I am old enough to draw social security. I can do it if H helps with the mortgage payments.
Anyway, I think I gave the impression that all was financially okay for me and that's far from the truth. I wanted to clarify that because ... I know that most of you are struggling financially and I'm right there in the same boat with you.
Hi Valeria, I haven't read all of your thread yet. Did you guys divorce or were you just seperated for six years?
I've been married for 25 years and W decided that she was done. We have our court date on 10/14. I shouldn't be, but I'm scared to death.....
Tad
Haha. Nevermind. Just read that you got D.
Any tips?
....
Valeria,
Its good to know that I'm not the only one struggling financially. My ex-partner (we were commonlaw spouses but moved to a non-commonlaw state about three years ago) makes a huge salary - comfortable six figures. I make less than $20K a year. He was always so financially responsible, he said "I'll always take care of you", blah, blah, blah. I worked and worked while he went to grad school, then I changed jobs frequently for his constant job relocations. In the 20 years we were together I never had asked for any control over our finances but I always contributed my full paycheck to our mutual bills. I never asked for anything either. I got one pair of shoes a year - from Payless. I remember being so grateful for that...saying "Thank you!" even though it was a credit card bill that I paid. My sister took me to a beauty salon when I turned 33 as a birthday gift. It was the first time I had ever been.
Then, out of the blue, MLC hit and he left with everything. Just went AWOL. Left me with bills I could never pay. Our house is on the market. I've moved to a rented room...just one room. He took all our savings and bought a house worth over 5x as much as the one we lived in, and now he lives there with the OW. He says his therapist and the OW said he owes me "nothing" (I don't think a therapist would actually say that - unless she got some incredibly skewed version of our relationship). Ex-P ays he worked harder and so its all his. I don't understand what happened. I NEVER, EVER asked for anything. He said I could have made something of myself (he's probably right) but all the while we were together he seemed proud of the work I did - I put myself through school one course at a time, I was valedictorian, and had two part-time jobs. Plus, even though I earned a lot less that him, I put everything I earned into our mutual bills while he saved and saved his money in his personal checking account. I never asked why we always had to live so far beneath our means but now I wonder if all along he was planning to leave with everything - he had well over 150K in his savings account when he left.
This man was always uber-responsible. He was a tightwad but always made a big deal about taking care of me forever. He was the LAST man on earth I would have expected to do this - just go AWOL. I've lost weight on the 'divorce diet' but also because money is so tight. I'm ashamed of having so little. I'm ashamed of people at work noticing that I don't eat lunch, I'm ashamed of having to rely on public internet when I have to send emails for work. I'm ashamed that by the end of the week there is sometimes only coins left, and sometimes not that. I'm tired of eating PB sandwiches for dinner. I miss eating fruit, delicious fruit. I miss a kitchen to cook in. I miss being able to rent a movie for a $1. I'm tired of not even being able to afford to go to the laundrymat. I used to have my own wash machine and dryer and I loved doing laundry and keeping the house nice. I hate living in a room. I miss cooking in a kitchen.
He crushed me so badly that I think no one will ever want me again. I'm a woman in my 30s who now lives in a room. Who would want that? Who could ever respect me?
Did your Ex-H know how he left you with nothing, financially-speaking? Did he show any guilt for what he was doing? My ex-partner is literally a different person than he was. He is spending like crazy on himself and OW. Why did WE always have to do without, and now he spends and spends. After he left, he came back when I wasn't around and even took back gifts I had received from him and family members over the years. Not that they were valuable - just CDs and books - but its like he was determined to leave me with NOTHING, which is what he did.
I'm so confused. Its cruel. Its vindictive and its so uncalled for because I've been nothing but nice. I can't understand why he feels such bitterness that he would take the few things I had left to my name...even my personal possessions?
So I guess I just want to know if your Ex-H knows how you've suffered because of him. I want to know if he knows WHAT HE HAS DONE? Does he understand? Is he remorseful for his actions or just sorry he lost you?
Does he know what he has been forgiven for? Does he understand the amazing grace you are showing by even taking his calls?
These are things I would consider before letting this man back into your life - even as a friend. Friends don't do what he did to you.
Tadpole
I haven't read all of your thread but events have happened pretty quickly for you. It's understandable that you are still reeling from the shock of it all. I was blindsided when it happened to me and I didn't get my bearings for a long time. We were separated for 2 years before the D so it's happening even quicker for you.
I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice because my sitch was different than most but there are a few things that I'm pretty sure of. I think if there is much interaction by the WAS toward the LBS, there are still unresolved feelings. If someone truly is done with their spouse, it is not shown via hateful words but by indifference.
My H wavered between loving me and hating me during the two years we waited to get divorced. He was not done with our M and even said so in one conversation. I agreed with him on one point -- he said "I think we need to get divorced and get re-married again when the dust has settled". He was right about that because our original M was over. There was too much hurt and pain to resume the same M. It needed to be mourned and buried. If we were (are) to resume a R, it needs to be a fresh start.
If your D happens, it will hurt but it won't be the end of the world. If there are still unresolved feelings on her part, she will eventually come to terms with them and will contact you. It will be up to you if you want to start a new life with her. Stay strong and stay positive.
Hi Alone
I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. The pain is still very fresh for you and it will take time to work through your feelings and heal.
You are seeing a mean and callous side to your X that you probably didn't know existed. The OW is fueling that venom, but he is ultimately responsible for his actions. Also, spendng lots of money is typical.
My H went on a spending frenzy when he first left. Most of it was spent on himself and the OW. He also built a house for the two of them (now long gone to foreclosure). The first few months were the worst as far as his hatefulness toward me. He blamed me for everything, but he needed that excuse to justify his bad behavior.
You said that you've been nothing but nice to your X. I don't think he deserves it right now. Some people disagree, but I think MLCers as a whole lose respect for us (hence the word "doormat") when we're too nice or accomodating. I don't think you are that at all, but I'm just saying that's often their perception. My H responded much more positively toward me when I stood up to him and/or he thought I was GAL without him.
Now that he's out of MLC, there are no more games between us. We are nice to each other. He has been extremely remorseful for all that he did. He is offering to help me financially, as best that he can.
You are young and that's a huge advantage. Things are rough now but they will get better. It's a whirlwind for you currently, but more clarity will come in time. You are in my thoughts and prayers that you have a wonderful life ahead of you.
If you've been married almost 20 years.
You're entitled to half of everything, including his six figure income.
How long are you planning on living in a room and not eating lunch? Till he comes to his senses and returns? That could be years or never. Are you going to hold your breath for this?
I'm in my 50's. You're in your 30's. To me you're just a pup, with a long life ahead of you. How you gonna live it?
Sorry for the 2x4, but you gotta think about your future.
InAPickle
1. Your posted on the wrong thread - you obviously meant it for the lady who posted to me last
2. The lady you intended to post to never married the guy so she's not entitled to 50%
3. 2x4's are okay at times but need to be applied a little more gently.
Sorry Pickle, I should have clarified. We WEREN'T legally married. We lived in a state that recognized commonlaw partnerships until just a few years ago when we moved again for his work. I said I felt "afraid" of this. He said, "We'll always be together, I'll always take care of you, you know I would never do THAT (abscond with everything)!!" Now I know that was a lie.
I've seen a lawyer, I'm entitled to nothing but 50% of the revenue from the sale of the house. And given the market, its not going to be good. He really can (and did) walk away with everything - it was all in his name. I've needed a 2x4 for the last 20 years that I allowed myself to be in this position.
Now back to Valeria...
Ouch, he built a house for the OW. But if he is genuinely remorseful....
Sorry Pickle, I should have clarified. We WEREN'T legally married. We lived in a state that recognized commonlaw partnerships until just a few years ago when we moved again for his work. I said I felt "afraid" of this. He said, "We'll always be together, I'll always take care of you, you know I would never do THAT (abscond with everything)!!" Now I know that was a lie.
I've seen a lawyer, I'm entitled to nothing but 50% of the revenue from the sale of the house. And given the market, its not going to be good. He really can (and did) walk away with everything - it was all in his name. I've needed a 2x4 for the last 20 years that I allowed myself to be in this position.
Now back to Valeria...
Ouch, he built a house for the OW. But if he is genuinely remorseful....
I've seen a lawyer, I'm entitled to nothing but 50% of the revenue from the sale of the house. And given the market, its not going to be good. He really can (and did) walk away with everything - it was all in his name. I've needed a 2x4 for the last 20 years that I allowed myself to be in this position.
AA35
are you share about this? How long have you been in PA?
Sorry about the double post - computer glitch.
Valeria, I suppose MLC is a bit like an illness. If your husband had been mentally ill for 6 years and did terrible things during those years, it would be easy to forgive because he could not be held 100% accountable for his actions. He would be 'not guilty by reasons of insanity'.
May I ask (and you don't have to give details) to what your EX-H attributes his behaviors/choices during that period? Does he feel he was 'himself,' in other words, acting rationally? Do you feel he was in control of his choices? Have your perceptions about WHY he did what he did helped you in your healing/understanding/acceptance of your Ex-H now?
I do understand how it is possible that you've loved him all of these years - that is truly unconditional love that comes from the best part of ourselves or from our higher power. Its just such a gift you are giving him...He came out the other side and you were still there. Amazing Grace.
I'd hate to see that taken advantage of. Six years of heartache-induced growth & independence is a treasure not to be given away lightly. (Not sure I would give mine up if I survive that long!!!)
gr8 day,
Don't want to Hijack the thread...we had been here 3.5 years when he left.
Do I have legal recourse I'm not aware of? I have a thread under "newcomers" if that is a more appropriate venue.
Sorry Valeria.
aa35,
I didn't realize this wasn't your thread until now.
I'll check it out. Sorry V
Alone
Actualy, it did make it a bit easier to know that alcohol triggered his bi-polar condition. I don't think he would have done these things had he been "himself" -- but I'll never know for sure. There were times during those 6 years when he wasn't drinking and he would call me in a rational state of mind. He was his old self and talked about reconciling, but the next time he called he might be spewing venom and being hateful again. I never knew what to expect.
What I think is interesting is that his bi-polar condition mimicked the behavior of MLC. Do all MLCers become temporarily bi-polar?
When he talks about his behavior during those dark 6 years, he doesn't really have an answer. He just wishes he could go back and make different choices. He did tell me that he never loved the OW. When I asked him once about why he stayed with her so long, he said she paid him a lot of attention and made him feel important. (What he didn't say is that she liked to drink and that gave him a ready excuse to stay drunk most of the time)!
If I didn't make him feel important, I guess after 20+ years of marriage, it's easy to get comfortable and take each other for granted. Maybe I'm guilty of that, but it wasn't reason for him to go off the deep end and ruin our lives. He never gave me any warning that he was unhappy or that he was having an affair. We should have been able to sit down and talk out our problems. He says that he sees that now. At the time, he just wanted to drink, spend money without being accountable, and just live for himself.
Well, he did but he also paid a high price for that decision.
He has told me repeatedly during the past 6 years - except when he was drunk and talking trash - that I am the only woman he ever loved. He is still saying it. I believe him. He's also the only man I have ever loved, but I don't know if I can get past it.
Like W2S said, "best buds" might be the way to go right now.
Anyway, just know that sometimes they DO come back .. and it will be up to you (like it's up to me now) if they can return.
V
this is a very important comment. I said to a friend today that sometimes the LBS becomes the WAS. It is especially true after a long time apart.
It all about timing. Questions and concerns are:
Are you with someone else?
Do/could you have feelings for this person again?
Why now?
GR8
Those are good questions for people who find themselves in a situation like I'm in now. After so long a time, I thought the book was closed for me and H but apparently there is another chapter to write.
InAPickle
1. Your posted on the wrong thread - you obviously meant it for the lady who posted to me last
2. The lady you intended to post to never married the guy so she's not entitled to 50%
3. 2x4's are okay at times but need to be applied a little more gently.
Sorry, my bad.
Just a little info from my own D.
I bought out XW out of our house by refinancing.
The settlement was to be based on appraised value.
The appraisal came in about 50 grand higher than I know anyone in the real world would give me for my house.
My opinion was based on the fact that two doors down a comparable house has been on the market for two years without a sniff and across the street a house just sold for - guess what - the amount I thought mine was worth.
Just so you know, appraisals are merely estimates using formulas and whatever. In this economy, they do not necessarily mirror real life. So you could make out - jus' sayin'. Keep that in mind.
"What I think is interesting is that his bi-polar condition mimicked the behavior of MLC. Do all MLCers become temporarily bi-polar?"
I don't know about bi-polar, but I'm convinced MLCers do become sociopaths for a time, in that they (hopefully temporarily) jettison their conscience and obligations to right and wrong!
Of course, leading up to my bomb drop, my MLcer said, "I think I might be a sociopath"! At the time, I just said, "Oh dear, not you, you are a good person!"
InAPickle
Thanks for the info. I will probably sell this house next Spring. It's a unique house, so hopefully it will sell. I have a pretty good idea what it is worth but will get it appraised anyway.
Also, lots of paintful memories here. We had just built it a couple of years before XH left and began life in his alternate universe.
Alone
When your Ex said that he might be a sociopath, was it said in a joking manner? If not, what do you think he meant by that?
Sometimes people reveal secret nooks of their personality to others until one day it explodes and there it is.
I saw glimpses of the bi-polar disorder when I was married to XH. In fact, I filed for divorce from him after we had only been married a short time because he began drinking and his personality changed. I dropped the D when he promised to stop drinking if I would take him back. I did and he kept his promise for 18+ years, until 2005.
He had a heart attack a few years ago and was under anesthesia in the OR. For several days he was very erratic. So any mind-altering substance can set off XH's BP. Interestingly, he later said that he didn't remember anything in the days following the surgery!!
Valeria,
You have asked the dreaded question that torments me - and has tormented me for a long time. No, his comment about thinking he was/is a 'sociopath' was not said in a joking tone. It was scary and he sounded unsure of himself. (He also told me that years before his favorite uncle told him that he was 'white-hearted'- a term in their culture which means born with no conscience.) Ex-P also said, "I don't have emotions." He told me that he wanted to find someone "as shallow as he was." When days later when he finally admitted OW he justified it by saying that he "just wanted to know if he could feel something" - and apparently he did - he was in love with this woman from the internet (though he'd only seen her in person once at that point) and he wanted to marry her. Then he said he must never have loved me - or perhaps loved me at some point in the distant past but couldn't remember what it felt like. Then he coldly picked up the phone and called OW in front of me in our own kitchen...while I was cooking his dinner.
I was horrified. This was a man who had probably told me he loved me 5 times every day until just weeks beforehand. He had been the model of a 'caring and responsible' man. True, he was somewhat emotionally reserved (just like the rest of his family), and he did get cranky once in awhile, but never once did I doubt the genuineness of the apparent empathy, kindness, and generosity I saw him express over and over in the 20 years before this meltdown, no one we knew doubted it either.
Yet, I was watching a person (or the person I thought I knew) unravel before my eyes. Is he a sociopath?? - I don't think so based on all of the reading I've done about it - but something definitely broke down in him...or came up in him. What do you think?
Thank you for letting me express this to you. I genuinely feel that whatever happened to Ex-P, be it a MLC or something else, IT was radical and profound...or else he lied masterfully and hid the truth about himself for 20 years and no one was able to see it.
So is there a connection between a MLC and a mental illness? You might be right. So many MLC "symptoms" are so predictable its scary: the risk-taking, the out-of-nowhere resentment, the spending, the insane new relationship, the 180-degree overnight change in personality and demeanor, forgetting all of their "old life", and the obsession with dying (well, at least my MLCer became obsessed with people who had recently died..even ones he didn't know... and the fear he would die as well...so he had better start living).
When Dr.s observe a cluster of symptoms over and over it becomes a 'Syndrome'. So why isn't it called Mid-Life Syndrome?
There really is something real to this. Its not just men buying sports cars and women dressing in age-inappropriate ways. Its people RADICALLY changing in destructive ways.
I don't think my Ex-P will ever 'wake up.' Something has really gone off inside his head, but I am happy for you that you have the friend of your husband back. Its really quite amazing. I can't imagine the strength you've had to find in yourself over the years. Bi-polar, alcoholism, and MLC - one alone would be a deal-breaker for many. Like I've said, you've shown Amazing Grace.
Alone
It's possible for people to wear a "mask" for years and never reveal their true nature .. until something triggers it and there it is. No, I don't think your Ex is a sociopath from your description but I do think he might have another mental condition .. "narcissism" comes to mind. Mental conditions can be hell to live around and if he does indeed have a disorder, then you can count your blessings that he is not your problem anymore.
I don't mean to undermine your long R with your Ex. You obviously loved him or you wouldn't have stayed with him that long. But maybe he hid the part of his personality that he didn't want you to see, because he knew if you saw the "real" man, you would dump him. He gave you hints, even verbal ones, to warn you. So, maybe the pressure of wearing the mask became too much and he threw it off when he met another woman to invite to the masquerade. She's buying all that now but eventually his true colors will surface again.
I was shocked when I saw the Mr. Hyde personality explode out of my XH. Yes, I knew he was bi-polar and it was triggered by alochol but it was shocking nonetheless. The cruelty and lack of compassion were the most shocking. Often, five minutes later, he could revert to the old H and plead true remorse for what he had just said/done. This is apparently BP rapid cycling. He could run the spectrum from one end to the other in minutes.
I couldn't live that way. I don't know how the OW could live that way, either, but I suspect she had a mental condition of her own. They had each other arrested several times over the course of their affair. When H and I were married, he never even got a parking ticket so the change in behavior was extreme.
Now that he has quit drinking, I don't see any signs of Mr. Hyde. But when you're burned as badly as I was (and you), then it's especially hard to forget. I can forgive him because I know he has chemically-induced BP. But I can never forget ..
Hang in there because life does get better. Hugs to you.
I am so glad to read this. My closest friends/family- those who known the true words and actions my XH used and displayed in the last months of our marriage used the EXACT same descriptions - sociopath and narcicisst. None of them ever really mentioned MLC - I brought that to the table as a possibility. Even my counselor described his behaviors as sociopathic and narcicisstic. Anyway - not sure it really matters.
Val - your situation brings hope to many - you sound so strong I am sure whatever path you choose - you will end up at peace. My situation is probably more like Alones. I don't think my XH will ever wake up and that's why I have no contact with him. Detachment is the only way I can assure I won't get burned. He is a sick man - period. And I need to keep my space as healthy for myself and my kids as possible. But it is a HUGE loss in my life.
Thanks again for sharing!
I think not many people mention MLC because they don't know what it really is. It's not the sports car, secretary thing that so many people have heard poked fun at. It goes oh so much deeper than that.
I believe that people going through deep MLC display many of the same types of characteristics that you do see in narcissists and sociopaths.
IMO, I'm not sure people that are truly this way could hide it so well for years without their partners at least having some idea of who they're living with. (I also think there could be exceptions)
It's why so many LBS report that their MLCers are the opposite of the person they married.
Just my .02
Irish
Thanks for the kind words. I do think there is a correlation between a (temporary?) mental disorder and MLC. If you look at typical behaviors of MLCers, they are almost identical. They also resemble behaviors of mental chemical or hormone imbalances.
These people almost invariably become a mirror image of themselves, buy the Harley Davidsons or the red sports car, get the younger OW, risk losing everything that was (and should still be) important to them, etc.
I think the riskier the behavior, the more likely it is MLC (or mental imbalance) and the more chance they might wake up eventually and return to the men they once were. I DON'T think this will happen as long as they are still with OW, still drinking, etc., or still in replay in general. They could get stuck and even if they want to return, they feel they can't.
I think as long as these MLCers are still in the replay mode, it is a futile effort to expect them to "wske up".
I'm just stating my opinions and observations, for what it's worth, lol!! I will read your thread when time permits.
Thanks
Seeking
I agree with you.
For more than 20 years, though, I had no idea that my H had the capability of being hateful and cruel. It was in him but it was suppressed in him all those years. When it came out, it was an explosion!
Mine always had a short temper. It just got worse over the years.
The last year prior to bomb felt like nothing and no-one was good enough for him but we (me and the kids) were. Eventho, i started feeling like we were a heavy weight on his shoulder.
Anger was starting to come out ON US. He was aware that something was defenatly wrong WITH HIM but didn't know what.
Like yours, he would blow (monster) and 2 minutes later, ask for forgiveness and cry. High and Lows in matter of minutes.
In June 2009, he couldn't take it anymore. I felt like his leaving was his way to protect us from him. Back then, HE WAS AWARE of the pain he caused all of us but had no control over his emotions. In a phone conversation we had, he said that he FELT HE WASN'T GOOD TO ANYONE LIKE THIS! That we deserved much better. He was ashamed of himself and didn't know what else to do. Replay started. Alcohol, OW, spending...
Today, he will tell you that he is not sick. There's nothing wrong with him. He lost alot of weight and tells everybody that he exercises. He thinks that he is fouling everyone but he in not fouling me nor the kids nor my family. We know him way to much to fall for it. We have nothing but compassion for what he is going through. Depression is still very present and i'm always there for him through that phase but i do not make myself available to his anger phase anymore because i'm the one that falls down. My self-esteem gets to fragile and i need it to stay strong and help my kids to get through this.
Valeria,
I think some of it is a surprise to the MLCer, too. In mid-life when folks start to evaluate their lives, and where they're at, those things that have been stuffed down successfully for so long bubble up and can no longer be ignored.
When it overflows they have no idea what to do with it and their reactions can be bizarre. Confusion sets in as they try to 'fix it' externally because it is so painful to look within.
They then try to outrun it, and most, not all, come to realize it was not their spouse or their children that caused their unhappiness. It was the issues within that they refused to look at and deal with.
Exquisite
Good for you that you are staying strong for yourself and your kids. These MLCers try to provoke through anger and intimidation and you are not subjecting yourself to that kind of behavior. You are doing great -- I know it's hard to do sometimes but you and your kids will benefit from your strength in the long run.
Seeking
Exactly. When they can't outrun it, they have to face themselves eventually. It's not a pretty picture, all the devastation they have left in their wake. If you put yourself in their place, can you imagine how hard to face the destruction to the people who loved you most? A lot of MLCers can't face up to it. I think that's why they stay away -- too much guilt.
Valeria
all the best, you seem to have a handle on your situation.
I was reading that your husband had a younger ow for the most part of the six years.
Did this relationship die a natural death and your husband was able to walk out on her, or did he need to go through the withdrawl that Heartsblessing talks about.
I found it interesting when I read that your husband told you he did not care for his ow.
Mine has said the same thing, however mine went on to marry her.
My XH has been with ow for four years, always told everyone how he would never marry again, let alone her.
No one has ever met the ow. XH does not talk with anyone from his past life, inculding his children for the past threee years.
I am assuming he has either forgotten everyone, or trying very hard to erase everyone from his previous live.
Dollard:
I don't know the specifics on the ending of the affair b/c I never asked. All that H volunteered was that she was too young. However, I know that she cheated on him at least once during their affair and the "OM" went around bragging about it. I'm sure her cheating played into the final split.
He said that they had been apart for several months when he began initiating contact with me again. I don't know if he went through withdrawal but I'm sure he did to some extent because they had been together for 5 years.
He did say that she never loved him like I loved him.
However, I take everything that H says with a grain of salt, especially with regard to the affair. He had to have felt something for her or their R would not have lasted 5 years. The OW in both our sitches apparently met some need (albeit temporary) that our H's thought they were missing with us. In my case, one attraction was their mutual love of alcohol.
After we split up in 2005, H told his mother that he would never marry the OW and he didn't. After he begun his affair, he brought the OW around his family immediately and practically shoved her down their throats. For awhile, they seemed like one big happy family but it didn't last long. The family is splintered now.
H also lost contact with his kids (both from previous M and ours).
I'm surprised that your H married his OW but the fact that he has kept her hidden from his family is interesting. Maybe his family was more supportive of you and your M than mine was. If so, then he would want to avoid any grief or shame by keeping her away.
In any event, it doesn't sound like a M that has much chance of surviving.
Valeria, thanks for the reply
you mentioned that your X had lost contact with his kids from a previous marriage and yours. How is this relationship now?
both my kids have not spoken to their father at least three years. XH has been with ow since December 2007. OW is 20 years younger, and about 5 years older than son.
My XH family was very supportive of my marriage. They all knew that XH loved me very much, and that there were no problems with the marriage.
ever since I went threw with the divorce, I have distanced myself from the inlaws.
they wanted me to be a doormat until XH came threw with this, which they believed, he would have pullled threw if I had not inticiated divorce.
XMIL wanted her son to get back with me up until a few weeks ago when I told her he married.
She did not believe me and swore her son repeatedly told her he would never marry the ow.
About 10 years ago, I was having coffee with a very dear friend of mine when her cell phone rang and was told her mother (86years old) had gotten into a car accident.
I rushed with her to the hospital, where I saw an old man crying over the old lady, kissing her and telling her how much he loved her.
I turn around to my friend and said "I hope my husband loves me as much as your father loves your mother when we reach their age".
My friend then told me the story that over 35 years ago her father left her mother for ow. They also had a child together.
The father kept telling his wife to give him some time and he will be back. He still has not returned, however he visits his wife three times a week, and sometimes on the weekend. He always goes back to his ow.
Two years ago I spend christmas with her family (her husband always spends christmas with his ow). The lady now in her 90s told me she is planning on getting divorced.
The reason was that if she dies, she does not want ow moving into her house. My friend is angry that her mother wasted her life waiting for her father to return.
Dollard
What a sad story. When the woman's H said, "Give me more time and I will be back", he was being incredibly selfish. He wanted his W at home waiting on him to return, which she did. I think these cowards say that because they aren't sure if the new R will work out so they want the back-up (Wife) waiting in the wings, just in case.
Back to your sitch ..
I suspected that you had support from your in-laws which is why your H won't bring OW around. Although, don't be surprised if later down the road the in-laws become more receptive to the OW. I've seen it happen many times -- they are initially against the affair but later are forced to accept it if they want to keep their son/brother in their lives. It hurts either way - whether they accept the OW from the start or accept her later.
My sitch ..
H had two sons from his first marriage and one son from ours.
The OW was several years younger than any of his own kids!!
He has very limited contact with his two sons from his first M. The younger son won't even call him "Dad" anymore but calls him by his first name. He has lost all respect for him.
My son has not seen H since 2006 and doesn't want to. H hurt our grandkids and my son can't forgive him for that. I'm not sure I can forgive him that sin either. Hurting me is one thing .. hurting innocent little kids is another.
Case in point ..
My grandson was just 3 when H left. I was watching him one day and he kept running to the door to see if "Papa" was home. After he asked me about 100 times to call Papa, I finally did and told him that he needed to come to the house and see gs. H showed up about a half hour later and only stayed a few minutes, he didn't spend much time with gs at all. After H left, gs ran to me with tears in his eyes and said, "Papa just see me a tiny while". It broke my heart.
H told me recently that before he left that day, gs wrapped his arms and legs tight around H and asked him not to go. H said that the memory of that day haunts him. As well it should.
I highly doubt ow now wife will ever meet the mil.
She has limited contact with my xsils because she does not like them too much. She perfers her sons visiting alone or with her grandkids. She tolerates the sils.
MIL is one tough lady. She has not spoken to her own mother in over 25 years.
My MIL lives in Europe. I live in Canada with my two children and XH lives in the USA. XH moved to the US for work in 2005.
He met a mexican girl 20 years younger who had a young son, and no money. H met her at a bar and took her home with him. She cheated on him numerous times, but he has forgiven her becaause he claims she has had a rough life.
The ow/now wife recently got her green card. My XH lost his job January 2011 therefore does not have a visa to remain in the US.
Perhaps this is why he married her. or perhaps being with her for four years, he has adapted to a new normal for him.
Everyone we know has lost respect for him.
I am convinced the man is mentally ill, and there is nothing I can do. Whenever I did try to reach out he told me I am a horrible person and to move on with my life.
I am happy that your H wants to reconcile with you.
I want my XH to wake up and stop being stupid.
I do not believe I want mine back, but I want him to acknowledge what he did to his family.
Your H confessed that day with your gs still haunts him. I want my XH whole life with his family to haunt him, because he really had no reason to walk away.
Dollard
Since you explained your situation with X-MIL, I agree that she probably will never accept OW. (I wish my X-MIL had that kind of backbone!)
My Ex also told me to move on with my life. He later asked me not to move on with my life, but to wait on him.
He had no clue what he wanted.
And now that he wants to come back, I'm pretty clueless myself (but leaning in a certain direction ..)
I sense strength in you and I admire that tremendously.
Hugs to you
Valeria,
Wow.........I have not been here in some time and yet it was so nice to see a thread by you. You were always one of the ones I kept in my prayers. It's nice to hear how well you're doing.
I don't envy the position you're in right now. Take it slow. My H has been back for several years now. It's ok........but we've (me) have had to work thru and live thru such selfishness that mlc brings - where life is "all about me". "all about me" is tough to live with....but it is what it is.
goooooooooo sloooooooow before you decide anything........but I'm sure you know that. you've been thru the mill - don't be quick to jump back into the grinder again.
bless you,
brue
Brue
How wonderful to hear from you again!!! Over those years, your advice often kept me grounded when I tended to go off course.
Once again, you're here to make sure I don't screw it up, lol!! Thank you Brue.
Yes MLC is all about selfishness and "me"-ness. It sounds as though your H never totally worked though his issues.
My XH and I talked again for a couple of hours last Saturday night and he truly seems to be out of MLC. He told his family that everything was his fault (180 degree) and he is getting everything out of his life that he acquired during those crazy 6 years. He finally makes sense to me. We can carry on a logical conversation like we did pre-MLC. I thought that would never happen again.
Thanks again, Brue, for your unfailing good advice and your prayers.
Hugs
Val
Hi Valeria,
I have read your story many times.
I found it in my early days of reading as there was the same age gap between my H and his OW and I was searching for help to come to terms with it.
I was so sad when I then read you had D.
Seems strange now that you are reposting and things have changed again in your sitch.
My H and OW are now into year 4 of the A.
They too are drinking buddies and H posts about it on fb all the time, almost boasting about their antics.
I wish you well, and I truely hope things continue to improve with your H.
You deserve the best.
HUGS
Hoping
Thanks for the kind words.
I always thought that a huge age gap (25+ years) would be the death of a relationship, but my XH stayed with OW for almost 6 years. I think they got a lot of flack over their age difference from other people, which might have made them stay together out of defiance.
What I think killed their relationship was not as much the age difference as the fact that XH ran out of money.
XH also realized that OW never really loved him. He had heart surgery last year and she never came to the hospital to see him. XH finally realized that if she really cared about him, she would have been there. (When H had his first heart attack 15 years ago, I was at his hospital bedside day and night.)
Things have come to another standstill with XH and me. He was pushing too hard to come back home. Whether we ever work it ut or not remains a big question mark. I'm not closing the door yet, but .. I really don't think XH has the wherewithall to do the work.
You too deserve the best, Hoping. Stay strong and positive.
Valeria,
I don't know your sitch. I started posting in 2002, never posted much in MLC.
All I can say is: open your heart, it is a far greater risk not to do so.
You love the man XH is now, it seems. There is a difference between making XH pay for his sins, "earn" his way back in, rather than simply allowing a new R to start that of COURSE requires trust building -- it would with ANYONE after D.
Give yourself and XH the gift of a fresh start, a beginners mind.
Let go of any smidgen of wanting to settle the score, to be right, to win... All that will do is make you BOTH lose, and your son, and your grandson.
You have the compassion to see that XH's acts weren't about hurting you or his family. He was lost and in pain. He did the best he could, however shoddy his best was.
Now his best is far better, back to what you want and need. Don't push him away because of old hurts. They'll be there whether you reconcile or not.
Clean slate, earn trust, share intimacy, see what grows in this new R with deep roots.
And, you have to learn to let go of the past hurts with someone, it may as well be with him, as tremendous rewards are possible.
Thank you, Oldtimer.
I appreciate your insight and comments.
I oftimes come across as more hard-nosed than I am actually am. I really do have compassion for XH but his recent history of alcohol, violence, police arrests, and inability to hold a job weigh heavily in my decision. Until I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is back to being the "good" man I was married to for 20+ years, I can't afford to take him back. He has a lot to prove to me.
I am seeing big glimpses of the man he USED to be - the man I loved as my H for 20+ years - but some lingering doubts remain. Recent phone conversations tell me that he isn't yet willing to tkae the time to convince me that I won't be jumping back into the fire. He wants to come home NOW.
I just can't risk it yet, Oldtimer.
I do want to emphasize that I don't believe in settling the score. Revenge has nothing to do with my decision. I want the very best for XH, whether it's with me or with someone else. I will help him in every way I can.
Thanks again
Clarification from my post above:
I want the very best for XH whether it's with me or with someone else ...EXCEPT THE OW!!!
OW was toxic for him and helped in a major way to bring him down. If XH and I can't work it out, I at least hope he picks a "good" woman the next time.
BTW, did I mention XH told me that OW felt no remorse whatsoever for her part in destroying a home and family? I foolishly had assumed that she felt at least some guilt over the years, but apparently not.
Hard to fathom ..
What about the idea of work WE have to do (you and xh)?
Oldtimer
I've spent the past 6 years lamenting the mistakes I made during our M. I made a slew - far more than H. I've spent many a night agonizing over my stupidity .. mostly selfishness and taking H for granted.
Hindsight, right? But all that self-analyzing made me a better person and I promised myself early on that if my prayers were answered and H came home, I would finally be the W that he deserved.
H didn't believe me. He chose to continue his path with alcohol and OW. I waited on him for a long, long time. I kept the light burning ahd he knew it. We tried to reconcile 5 or 6 times, but the lure of alcohol and OW and living the "free" life took precedence. After so many years, I finally accepted that H would never come back -- but all was not in vain because I was a far, far better person than I was before.
So, to answer your question in a rambling way - I hope that I have done the work and learned my lessons. H has finally realized that I'm a different person and that's a major reason why he wants to come home.
The problem is .. H hasn't done all the work he needs to do. Not yet, anyway.
Oldtimer, I appreciate that you challenge me and my approach to this situation. It does give me pause to think.
Suppose this guy wasn't your XH.
Suppose it was some other guy coming out of MLC. Suppose he told you about his bad choices, womanizing, alcohol abuse, etc... But, he also seemed remorseful and to be demonstrating very different behavior.
Suppose you were really falling for the guy.
Would it be: "There are so many good things about us, but I don't feel totally safe yet because of your recent past. How can we work through this while continuing to grow as a couple?"
Or
Would it be: "There are so many good things about us, but I don't feel totally safe yet because of your recent past. Come back when you've changed enough to make me feel safe."
Look, I'm definitely NOT pushing you to have him move home before you are ready for that. But if that is ever to happen, the work that needs to be done is not just his alone, it is also yours (yes still, there is more to do), and what I'm really pushing is that it will also have to be OURS (yours and XH's together as a partnership, as a team).
Becoming is real partner is going to feel risky to you NO MATTER WHO THAT PARTNER IS. But, to have real intimacy with anyone, it is a step you will have to take.
Maybe taking a dip in the deep end with XH is exactly what you BOTH need to continue to make progress as individuals and as partners.
You are very wise indeed to have 2nd thoughts.
over the past few years you have grown and matured and made the changes you needed to make.
just because you love someone and forgive them does not mean you have to allow them back into your life again.
take things very slowly and set your boundaries.
You have made a new life for yourself so don't be motivated by guilt or fear.
If it is meant to be it will happen in your own time and when you are ready.
blessings
YBR
LoL, Oldtimer
If I met a man in, coming out of, or going into MLC .. I would run for the hills!!!!!!!!
Actually, I took some time to think about this before I posted my answer.
Given the two scenarios, it would be Scenario #2.
I realize there's no crystal ball to tell me what any man might do. I realize that life is a chance you take.
I also know that I'm comfortable (and safe) in my present single state. There's no great need within me to be a part of a couple. After all the upheaval and uncertainty of the past 6+ years, I enjoy the predictable peace that I wake up to every morning.
I miss the "old" H with all my heart. If MLC hadn't set in (or whatever it was!), then I've no doubt that H and I would have stayed married forever. In an ideal world, H and I could have sought counseling to fix our problems and lived happily ever after.
But .. it didn't work that way. And I'm too exhausted to work through any more issues with H.
With all due respect, a dip in the deep end is too risky. Three years ago, I would have jumped in feet first. So, if it happens at all, it's going to be a long, slow process and that's something I'm reasonably sure that H will not do.
My caution is undoubtedly sabotaging any chance of real reconciliation that H and I might have, but the burning desire to get back together is no longer within me. If it happens, that's wonderful. If not, I can survive okay on my own.
Hmmm.. I just read what I wrote. It sounds like commitment phobia, doesn't it? Lol, maybe I do need some professional counseling after all!!!
Thanks again for asking the questions that make me think.
Valeria - I totally relate to all you have written [including running for the hills LOL]. Yes, we made mistakes, yes we fixed ourselves, so others have noticed too - not just in our heads. Yes we have compassion for the MLcer. But ultimately they made choices that hurt very many people. That isn't being vindictive, but clear sighted.
I also want my xh to be happy, but until he faces himself, any reconciliation isn't going to help him to be happy. These MLCer tried that already.
I also agree that three years ago I would have jumped at reconciliation, but the passage of time, and my having got a good life together, on my own, makes me reluctant to take further chances. Like your xh, mine came back several times, and left again. That alone makes me cautious.
It is actions, not words that we need to see after all of this time.
Trust is not something that one person manufactures and presents to another person fait accompli. It is a team project.
And yes, you do sound like someone who is commitment phobic.
OT - when trust has been betrayed, not once, but over a 6+ year period, in terms of infidelity, stealing of joint assets, emotional abuse, neglect of children, even if it is done by a person in crisis, at last some of those issues need explicitly addressing before a close relationship can be resumed.
I have learned this to my cost - I took my husband back several times, loved him, and wanted to move on. BUT he had not looked within himself. Until the MLCer does that, a real relationship is not possible, I have come to believe.
I am not bitter - I love my xh and wish him well. I have helped him gladly, on many occasions, and not kept any score.
I agree that trust is a team project, with both partners playing. If one drops out, they do have to get back into the game. But perhaps we will never agree, and it is Valeria's thread, not mine!
Thank you, Beatrice.
OT, I'm confused by your statement that trust is a team project. My XH has never had reason to mistrust me and will tell you today that I'm the only person in the world that he can trust completely. XH, on the other hand, has betrayed my trust time and time again. Which brings me back to my original statement that XH will have to earn my trust and it will take time .. and it will be on MY time clock.
And if he can do this, then I can - and will - commit to XH.
In any event, I respect your viewpoint but I request that you respect mine as well.
Unless we take emotional risks, there is no chance for trust. For someone to earn our trust, we have to trust them with something. That is why it is impossible for trust to be a one-sided exercise.
Of course XH will need to earn your trust, again, just like any new prospective romantic partner. And, of course you should take your time.
All I'm doing is to try to shift your perspective from what is "his work" alone, to also consider what falls into "our work" and "my work."
My caution is undoubtedly sabotaging any chance of real reconciliation that H and I might have, but the burning desire to get back together is no longer within me. If it happens, that's wonderful. If not, I can survive okay on my own.
No, I don't think that's possible. In fact, in my mind I would think the opposite. I am not talking from experience, but rather from watching others such as my exbil. He destroyed much. He knew it and he was willing to take the time, as much time as it took, to deal with that and make it as right as he could. That relationship was/is with his father and not a spouse. But the behavior is similar.
I think that taking the time and not just "jumping in" serves several purposes. Not the least of which is that it communicates that you are somebody worth pursuing. It also allows for strengthening of the relationship and resolve.
I see no reason to do more than be open to the idea. I agree with OT that you should not, and would not want to, assume it is something that XH needs to "prove" he has done the work. He needs to prove he can be trusted. That's the same as it would be with anyone coming into your life.
You need to prove you can be open to that concept. With him or anyone else and not just remain comfortable with the status quo.
My $.04 anyway.
AJ
Thanks, AJ for your $.04
What I meant by sabotaging the relationship is that XH has no patience to wait on anything. He was always that way -- impulsive and wanting things to happen immediately.
By me not jumping back into a relationship with XH (like he wants) will probably drive him away. If that happens, it's okay because he needs to do a little more soul searching before he's ready to do the real work.
I agree with you Valeria - while we need to accept people for the way they are, the same applies to them. I need to be wooed and won by any prospective partner - not in a Hollywood way, but by acts of kindness and understanding.
The OW are so easy to 'win' and so hard to live with. I like to think I am the opposite.
And frankly anyone who cannot see that they might have done a fair bit of damage really hasn't 'got it' This is not the same as 'punishing' them. There is a wonderful line in the parable of the Prodigal Son, often overlooked 'When he came to his senses' he started the journey home. He repented, and 'his father saw him coming a long way off and ran to meet him' These are the two crucial elements. We have to meet them, I agree, but they also need to show they are sorry. There is much to be sorry about. It is pointless to gloss over that.
B, you are truly a wise person. No question.
Valeria, I get it. And I totally agree with what was said. I'm asking the questions however.
One that jumps up is the striking similarity to your xh and my xw. Impatience. Wanting things right now. Inability to delay gratification.
I think you are right that you are not willing "at any cost" to jump into a relationship with xh. I think you are very much grounded in that approach. I also think that for ANY relationship to work, B makes a good point that he has to work at it - the same as any.
Watching and waiting (to some degree) is the best approach.
I think that to expect him to "get it" all at once or to show he gets it would take time. Both would. Until that point, having a relationship really isn't possible IMHO.
I think that's a common theme.
I think Yellowbrick road has it right as well. Don't waste any more time worrying about it. You'll look back and be sorry for that wasted time at some point. That's part of the journey as well.
There was a lot of damage caused. There was. No getting around it. But one way or another we as the LBS have to let that go at some point. We don't have to let them continue that behavior and we don't have to be waiting around while they "figure it out" or otherwise change their minds. They may not and may just be acting out of habit in some ways.
To me the best approach is to let it all go and live. Live in a way I can like me and in a way that is good for me. Live in a way that when I do look back, I like me and have no regrets.
To date, I have very few and none of them around my xw. Most of my regrets have to do with how I perceive things and how slow I can be to see things for how they really are. I interpret events based on my filters and not always how things really are.
Not sorry, just that I see room for improvement.
Hang in there and live your life. If he wants to pursue, you'll know and you can deal with it then, right?
AJ
I understand why people post that they are 'sorry' for the wasted time. But to me that is another filter, another form of pointless regret. Grief and loss take time to heal from. We would be less, as people, if after a few months we said, 'Well that is over, on with life'.
YBR's h came back and I have noticed that those who reconciled are more likely, on these boards, to tell us not to 'waste' time on regrets. But that to me is another filter too. I wish I hadn't taken so long to recover, but it took a long time to come to terms with what happened. I worked on feeling better, and eventually I did. But I loved very deeply and for a long time, and that takes time to deal with.
Interestingly studies have shown that widows [after long and happy marriages] usually grieve longer than men.
I am not glamorizing grieving, just recognising it as a necessary process on the road to moving forward, and one that helps us to explore our inner selves. I suspect that not grieving the loss fully [and that is why I raised the issue of those who have reconciled after a couple of years - it is different for them in that ultimately the marriage was restored] will lead to problems further along. It is OK to be sad, and to grow through that. Clearly it is not a place to be stuck in. It wasn't until I faced the depths of my grief that I could really more forward into the place where I am now.
Valeria, like me, has been on her own a long time, and come fully to terms with the loss. Getting back together now would be harder, not simply because of the passage of time, but because we have fully accepted our loss. After a couple of years you haven't, even if you think you have. At least that is my 2 c. I am not denigrating being happy, getting a life, and helping yourself. All wonderful, all necessary, all good. But working through it all takes time, for most of us.
When XH left unexpectedly in August 2005, I was blind-sided. It was a sucker punch that devastated me and took a long, long time to recover. I went through a painful grieving period (like most people on this board) and thought that death was preferable to living. Gradually I recovered and was able to move forward.
OTOH, XH went directly from our M to a crazy affair with OW which lasted 6 years. I think he had moments of grieving for the loss of home and family but the OW was always there to divert his grief. .
Now, 6+ years later, OW is gone and he is alone. He is going through the stages of grieving that I went through in 2005-06. He also has the added burden of looking himself in the mirror each day and realizing the devastation he caused to his family
(Although he denies it, and claims that he is relieved that the A is over, he is probably grieving the end of that R as well)
XH is carrying around a load of guilt. I think if he cannot come home NOW and pretend that the past several years never happened, he will move on to find someone else to distract him from the pain and loss.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope he can go through the period of mourning and soul-searching that will make him a better man. But comments he has made to me on the phone (like.. he doesn't understand why our son doesn't call him), lets me know that he doesn't get it yet. It's up to H to call our son (not the other way around) and express a sincere apology and remorse for the pain he has caused.
I went through the long period of soul-searching and became a better person. Now it's H's turn. I hope he can do it.
I understand what Beatrice is saying regarding the grieving process.
I don't think that I posted that I just moved forward with my life and pretended my 20 year marriage didn't mean anything.
I did grieve and I mourned the loss of what we had together.
The point I was trying to make was that during my Husbands absence I focused too much on his MLC.
There was so much damage done to our relationship mostly caused by his irrational behavior that instead of working on my own healing I wasted too much time trying to figure out what happened.
There were children to take care of and bills were piling up. My job in life was to try and keep everything as normal as possible for them.
It was a really bad period of my life and looking back I wish I had done things differently.
Just because they suddenly decide they want to come home again doesn't make all the problems suddenly dissapear.
YBR I understand what you are saying [-and I think I know who you are! ] I do not think that anyone just pretends that the marriage didn't mean anything . . of course not, but I have noticed that those who reconcile within a two to three year period look at MLC through a slightly different lens than those of us who have gone the full 5 miles.
I am not saying worse or better, just different. I think if my h had decided to come home three years ago, I would be writing different posts. Yes, we have probably focused too much on their MLC, but when something blindsides you it is hard not to think 'why' for quite a while.
I am not saying that this is necessarily the best thing to do, but it is wholly understandable, and maybe even necessary.
As Valeria has pointed out - 6+ years out of a child's life, even an adult one, is a very long time. Especially with little or no contact. My xh also does not understand why his children are not interested in seeing him, and don't send him birthday or Christmas gifts. He ran off and left them, and now he wants back into their lives. The sheer length of time makes it hard.
Some MLcers stay in contact with their kids, but when they don't the rebuilding is extremely difficult.
Valeria, I am reading your posts with interest, you and I have been at this around the same timeframe, me I jumped off the rollercoaster ride, no longer standing and havent for some time. I have to say to yourself and to Beatrice that yes you are correct this mlc is a sucker and it doesnt take a couple of years to get over or grieve the loss of the marriage, on the whole it took me at least until the five year mark to realise enough is enough and move on fully, it is evident my ex is not ever coming back, he as been at this nor for some 7 years plus, my main problem and hurdle that I will never ever get over is the non contact from the ex to his only child, throughout the time he has been gone I can honestly say except for a couple of touch and gos of around 6 months each time, that ex just does not want to know his son, he walked out the door and walked away and just abandoned his son. He had the cheek to send son a birthday card back in august and managed to write on the bottom for son to call him if he wanted, sons answer was whats the point, he doesnt call me and there are more than two days in a year, ie birthday and christmas, so ex has done his own poisoning of his only child and I do not ever see that bridge being re-built now
Wondering how V is doing.
Hi Forward
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't check in much these days, especially with the Christmas holidays and all.
It's funny how my feelings for XH have changed. I have come to some major decisions in the past few months: I don't want him back and I don't want to be his friend.
I wish him well. I told him about 2 months ago that I didn't see a future for us. His calls have all but stopped. He called last week but hung up after one ring.
I think his girlfriend is still in the picture (what a surprise!), but their R is one of cheating on each other and being miserable - especially during the holidays. It's some kind of sick co-dependency, but I don't want to be drug into any part of it.
I've been sick this year with Lyme disease that really did a number on me, but I'm almost well and one of my New Years' Resolutions is to start getting out again and meet new people. It feels really good to know that XH no longer has any hold on me.
I like your by-line "Making my own ending". I'm making mine too.
Val
V,
Please take good care of yourself. I am glad that you have reached a point of resolve w/X. Despite resolutions, it is still hard to put aside feelings of pain sometimes, isn't it?
Please keep us informed. Sometimes it is good to see how things change for the LBS.