I did not even realize it but yesterday, August 25, 2011 marked 2 years to the date that I kicked my W out of the house in a fit of rage, anger and frustration. The cops came as I was throwing her clothes in trashbags out the front door onto the front lawn. What a scene it was!!!!
I found myself on the rollercoaster of emotions after the bomb drop and the discovery of her affair just 2 months prior and her statement that our marriage was over sent me over the edge.
When I look back at that time, I can remember the emotions and the events and the words spoken as if they were yesterday. However they are far behind me and I am a totally different person today.
I no longer mark the anniversary of her meeting the OM, the date of her PA, the date of the bomb, the date I found out about the affair......none of it......my life is too busy and too full of other things that matter to ME now.
For those who don't know, I filed for divorce and it became final on February 11, 2011. I stood for my marriage for a long time........
---------------------------------------------------------------
This morning, I was leaving for work and realized I had not checked the mail from yesterday.
In the mailbox was two hand addressed letters.
One addressed to ME, the other addressed to my D14.
(D14 does not see, nor talk, nor has any communication with her mother. My D14 has had her share of struggles with all this. She is on AD's and sleeping pills, and goes to a Therapist every other week, and spent 10 days in the hospital recently for thoughts of suicide.......My D14 is actually doing very well considering all she has been through.)
I sat in my car this morning and openned my letter........
MHL,
I am truly sorry.
I made some really bad decisions not realizing what the cost was going to be.
I honestly was not in my right mind.
I never intended to hurt anybody, and I know I did.
If I could take it all back I would. I never intended to tear the family apart.
With all my heart.
XW
As I read in so many threads here I see that we the LBS's always wonder if the MLCer/WAS realizes what they did. I would say that it is the one question that really gets to the crux of the matter.
"DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU DID OR ARE DOING????"
I will say that was the question I had and still had unanswered until this morning. It is the one question my D14 has too.
I can tell you that I have envisioned what that moment might look like when my XW would "wake up" one day. I accepted that it may never happen, and I was okay with it.
It came today, and it was not as I had thought it would be.....and more importantly it did not stir the emotion in me that I thought that it would have if it ever came.
I guess I had let go of the "expectation" that one day she would communicate to me that she "got it". I guess when I let go of that I was able to let go of the "shell of a marriage" I was holding onto.
----------------------------------------------------
My life is Happy now. I try daily to make myself a better MAN, FATHER and FRIEND. I do not feel that I am missing anything, I don't feel like a victim, I don't feel sad for what has happened.........it happened and I am dealing with it just as I deal with anything else in my life.
I have learned to press forward in my life and live with the things that I cannot change......I accept those things that I have no control over and deal with them accordingly.
One of the things I cannot change in my LIFE is........
I LOVE MY XW.
Always will............I accept it.
I am not ruled by my Love for my W just as I am not ruled by my anger either.
Actions taken out of emotions without thought are usually not good and often times can be destructive.........
even if those emotions are emotions of LOVE.
This is how we can get ourselves into codependent relationships.
I was talking to a close friend from the boards, just 2 days ago about how I interact with my XW.
I don’t act true to myself when I interact with my XW. I am a very friendly person, I will pretty much talk to the wall……THAT IS WHO I AM.
When I interact with my XW I am cordial and nice but I do not initiate small talk……I will respond to idle chit chat but I do not start it…..also I really don’t look at her in the face that much. I will do things for her that I would do for any other friend but I just am not “friendly” with her.
The reason I do this is not to get a reaction out of her but rather to protect me.
I have put my Love for her in a box down inside. I know it is there and I do not mess with it. I have managed to carry on my life and even have found that I can love someone else while I still have this box of love for my XW down inside me.
I accept it, and I have learned to live with it.
Part of living with it is not disturbing the box…….as I told my friend I do not want to stir any of the feelings for my XW…….I know there is pain there and I have learned to stay away from that pain.
I have touched the stove too many times…….I know better.
The way I act with my XW now is as automatic as breathing, I do not control it. The way I interact with her is an automatic response.
The reason for all that explaination is that I am not sure how I want to respond to her apology, which is still somewhat self-serving IMO.
I want to acknowledge that she sent it, I want to thank her for it and acknowledge that it was probably hard for her to do. At minimum I think that will be my response……..I am interested in what others may have to say.
The thing I am pondering is do I go a little further……..do I engage her……meaning do I ask her “what was it that brought her to this”.
Do I want to hear that?
Do I want to lower the wall?
I am so used to the way I interact with her that to do otherwise would be “un-natural” at this point…….I feel I may risk pain for myself. I have gotten real good at protecting myself.
I will take my time on this for sure.
Thanks.
Cheers
MHL, Powerful and moving. Please act with extreme caution. My xh has done this. BUT I have learned it is actions not words that indicate their real sincerity.
My xh has said the words, but then went back to MLC behaviours. I let my guard down and get hurt badly again, after being like you, and having no expectatons, And second time hurt too.
It may be genuine and permanent, and it may be short lived. Facing up to what they have done long term takes courage. [And like MLC there isn't much we can do to ease their pain] Fortunately it is 'only' two years in your case. With my xh it was more than 4 years, and that is a very long time. . . .
If it is a genuine long term change of heart then you have the choice. Others wiser than me can guide you if you want to rebuild. I simply advise caution, in the light of my own experience.
Wow MHL. Very interesting.
I would have to think this does bring with it some complicated emotions.
Something you did not mention. But with your questions it has me wondering...
Do you have any desire to try and R your M?
Thanks Beatrice,
Her actions have changed somewhat over the last couple of weeks but since our interactions are limited, it would be a stretch to say that her actions mirror the sincerity of her apology.
The other thing is that I really do not "look" at what she does or says too much anyway.......I really just don't care.
Do you have any desire to try and R your M?
CS,
I really don't care enough to think about it. Sure I have thought about the "possibility" of it and just feel that it would not work.....
even if she could do all the things I would need or want her to do I am not sure that the demons would not come a callin' years from now if we were to reconcile.
The other point here and it really is a separate issue is that I have been dating a woman for the last 9 months and it is going well. There are no wedding bells in the future yet but we are a committed couple.
I feel that my response to my XW should be the same no matter if
I wanted to reconcile
I was dating someone
I was alone
I did not want to reconcile
I am trying to be "true" to myself while at the same time protecting ME.
I did not answer your question.................
I would want to reconcile if.................
THAT IS WHERE I GET STUCK. (Maybe I could look at your paper for the answer)
~C
I feel that my response to my XW should be the same no matter if
I wanted to reconcile
I was dating someone
I was alone
I did not want to reconcile
I am trying to be "true" to myself while at the same time protecting ME.
I understand what you're saying Miss.
But I think your reponse is different based upon what you want, AND you're still being true to yourself.
As an example:
Responding to an advance from a pretty lady is going to be marginally different based upon what I want (if I was single and totally different since I am married) And I would be true to myself in either case.
I would want to reconcile if.................
A - She was sincere.
B - This wasn't a trick and I didn't feel like a fool for even considering it.
C - She could earn my trust.
D - I allowed her to earn my trust.
E - all of the above.
? Maybe?
But I think your reponse is different based upon what you want, AND you're still being true to yourself.
So then the question is....
What is it that I want?This is where I get a little hung up........
I want to be happy........
On my journey I found that MY HAPPINESS is not tied to being with another person.
However, "wanting" to be with someone that does not "want" to be with me is painful
Pain impacts my Happiness.
I want to be Happy therefore I avoid Pain.
Now I also acknowledge that just the mere avoidance of pain does not make me HAPPY.
The thing that makes me happy is the pursuit of being a better ME.
My XW has given me an apology that is global at best and a little self-serving at worst.
Do I
want to risk a piece of my happiness by openning myself up to a little pain to see if my XW is feeling anything more than a "global apology"?
The other thing that I found is that I am in a comfortable place......it is warm and cozy.........I don't want to lose my seat either.
I think Jack nailed it.
It is a hell of a position you're in.
I think some deep soul searching is the first order of business.
It could get ugly. You have mentioned how much you have protected yourself. I TOTALLY get it.
But. ANY R requires a certain degree of vulnerability.
And there lays the rub...
Here's my 2 cents and I say this as someone "behind you" in terms of timelines (it was 14 mo. since my XH began his affair and left, and 2 years since his MLC began).
What struck me about your post was your comment about putting your pain in this box way down below and protecting yourself so much it was instant. I have also done that by deliberately cutting my XH off and not allowing him any acccess to me for a long time now but through a friend. I don't regret this, as I think I needed it. But it has bothered me for the past month that I was also putting the feelings for him and the pain too away in a place where I was not learning how to handle it, which meant that the slightest upset to the way I had things controlled had the potential to really throw me for a loop. When you said "avoidance of pain doesn't make me HAPPY" that really struck me. That's exactly the place I reached this week.
Then, this stupid hurricane is coming, and I woke up today and very clear-headed, I initiated email contact with my XH to tell him I am concerned for his safety (details are on my thread). I have a mixed bag of emotions having done it, but the mixed bag comes from MY reaction to information out there, NOT from anything he did in interacting with me. I actually think it's important at this point for me to learn how to temper MY reactions to things. I do not regret contacting him for the brief time we spoke.
The reason I tell you all this is that I sense that you're in a similar place, where you're wondering if you want to unlock the door of this box of pain, wondering what the effects to you could be, and worrying a little about inviting pain into your life again (potentially) but also thinking that NOT opening it at all is a form of hiding from it, which also isn't good.
Now considering all that, what I think you should consider doing, is to respond with what you initially said, your minimum response. As for the other questions you thought of, the first one, what brought you to this, well I immediately thought "red flag." You may not want to know what brought her to it. She might not tell you.
What else could you say? If there is ANY part of you at all, even ONE IOTA that thinks you have it in you to explore reconciliation at some point, I think you could write something that leaves it all open.
You can simply thank her, say that it must have been hard to say that, and say that if she wants to talk to you in more depth, you would be willing to listen.
This lets you open the door but you're doing so with no promises, no pushing, no in-depth queries that might be too much yet, and if she says she wants to, then you may end up speaking about things more. If she doesn't do anything, I think you haven't put yourself out on a limb where you can face rejection.
Simply saying you're willing to LISTEN to her more is not setting yourself up to be rejected and hurt again. All it's saying is that you have made this long journey of self-improvement and you are willing to allow someone else who hurt you the space to apologize, etc.
Regardless of what ever happens from this point out, I do think that if she was sincere (and let's assume she was), that you are lucky to have had this gift of an acknoledgement that she made some bad choices. I've said many times that I really just want my XH to have remorse. Not because I want him to feel like dirt (though sometimes I do), but because I've read that feelings of "guilt" are self-serving, and one never recovers if one is motivated by guilt alone; but feelings of remorse are motivated by true knowledge that one hurt another, and THEIR path to recovery of their identity/self is only going to come if they feel remorse.
I feel like there is remorse in what she said. Just my 2 cents.
MHL,
I have been following your thread even though I've been "laying low" this summer. Thank you for sharing your letter with us! It's always interesting to get insight into the MLC process. I'm VERY happy for all of the happiness and contentment you have created for yourself and your family. You have truly done an amazing job!!!!
Do you know what XW wrote to your D? Have you talked to D's therapist to ask about the best way to handle that with D?
GAG
ANY R requires a certain degree of vulnerability.
And there lays the rub...
Thing is I am not sure I want to reconcile.
Even if I were not with this other woman, and that relationship is good......we are going to Mexico in 2 weeks for a week of.........
well........a week of things you do in Mexico
It was suggested to me that I may not be getting a more specific apology because I am in this relationship with this woman.
I keep coming back to even if I was not in this other relationship I am not sure I would want to dig a little because of the potential for pain.
I've read that feelings of "guilt" are self-serving, and one never recovers if one is motivated by guilt alone; but feelings of remorse are motivated by true knowledge that one hurt another, and THEIR path to recovery of their identity/self is only going to come if they feel remorse.
I feel like there is remorse in what she said. Just my 2 cents.
Antonia,
Thanks I will probably respond in a fashion that you suggested.......it is the part about being open to talking about it if she wants to.
I am not sure I want to hear what she has to say if she did want to talk.
Your comment on remorse and guilt is interesting.....I was talking with another board member today and I recall reading something about the 4 stages/types of remorse somewhere in the archives.
As I remember it, it goes something like this.....
I am sorry I got caught.
I am sorry I caused you pain.
I am sorry I caused you pain and I feel bad about it.
I am sorry I caused you pain and I understand why you are hurt.
Not sure if that is right, if someone else knows what it is exactly, please post it.
I think my XW is somewhere between 2 and 3.
I think that is all she is capable of right now.
I think she still has time "in the oven" still.....she is not done yet.
Cheers
I have been following your thread even though I've been "laying low" this summer.
GAG,
I was wondering about you the other day.......so good to hear from you. Sometimes layin' low is good.
I hope things are well with you!!!
Do you know what XW wrote to your D? Have you talked to D's therapist to ask about the best way to handle that with D?
GAG
No, I do not know what she wrote her. The letter is with me, I will give it to her tonight. We are going to a High School football game tonight.......FUN!!! Can't believe she is in HIGH SCHOOL!!!
Anyway, I am not sure how she will handle whatever her mother has written to her. Typically my D14's reaction to her mother's attempts to connect are "TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE".
My D14 does ask the question aloud to me......."Does she get it??? Does she realize what she has done/is doing??"
Up until today, my answer has been, "I don't know".
Fortunately, my D14 has an appt. with the therapist next week.
MHL I do hope that what I am going to write does not come across as judgmental. i think you have done a terrific job of rebuilding your life. But, and there is always a but, i remember very well when you first joined these boards, as a very committed stander and a very hurt man.
You have moved on fast, and could teach many of us old timers a thing or two about getting a life. What concerns me however is those feelings for your wife that you expressed so eloquently. From your daughter's response, I suspect that you have been nursing more hurt than you are probably admitting to yourself.
What lessons are you learning from all of this? Life is not simply the avoidance of hurt - interesting that you have that as your strapline. Maybe your wife is not sincere, maybe you have moved on fully, but it concerns me a little at how fast your feelings for your wife appear to have gone away.
Even if you cannot re-open the wounds, it is vital that your daughter learns to forgive. People we love hurt us and we hurt them, that, sadly is a part of life. Sometimes between a man and a woman it cannot be repaired, but a child only has one mother, and doesn't get another shot at having a second.
Our children matter more than anything else in this. that is what the MLCer forgets, and what we must not. You are a good man and will do what you believe to be right.
Hiya M.
Well, first of all, without digging too deep into it, nice to hear an apology I would think.
My opinion for how you should respond would be simply, I got your letter, thank you for writing it. I appreciate the apology or something along those lines.
You asking where this came from - you might not like the answer. Best to let her tell you when she is ready, if you care to hear it.
M, you've come a long way. We all deal with our pain in different ways. Your way works for you.
I dont think you really have to make any kind of a decision about anything right now.
Your xw will let you know if she has anything further to say, regardless of whether you are in a relatinship or not.
Sometimes it is best to just let things unfold. You will know in your heart, without a doubt, what you should do.
I think your xw is going through her journey and this is a step on it. She is going to feel some terible lows coming to grips with what she has done. Still your job to let her walk it.
Your daughter as always, is in my prayers
Sweetie, enjoy your trip.
The rest, well, will unfold as it will.
Beatrice,
No worries, that is what I want when I come here.....
As for the feelings for my W.........
There is no doubt about it......I do Love her.
I have learned to live with that fact and my overarching concern is that I do not want to mess with that.
As for my daughter, she is learning many things about herself and others.......she is mature beyond her years and I thank God daily for her.
Cheers
I keep coming back to even if I was not in this other relationship I am not sure I would want to dig a little because of the potential for pain.
The truth is, I asked the question. But based on just your first post it is obvious there is
some desire.
Now whether it is worth opening up for it. Is another question.
In a lot of ways. I feel we have delt with the emotional side of this in similar ways. I can also "box up."
Can it stay boxed forever? I'm not so sure.
I guess the other question I have. Is this the time to even open that box at all?
Perhaps not.
It is a nice gesture on her part. I think it has to feel good for you to hear this.
But for NOW. It's all it is.
A simple reply like you mentioned is probably appropriate.
Maybe I am just self reflecting. I just keep thinking about what is kept in the box. When to face it. What will it mean? TBH. For me. Not even sure what is in it.
But you have stated fear in opening it back up. So it must be something.
Like I said. It's a hell of a position.
Be well man. Enjoy BIG Friday
MHL
I thought I would throw in my .02 here.
I think that Brooklyn and Beatrice have given you good advice.
The MLC'er does not like it when you move forward from where they left you.
You have certainly moved.
Your XW is testing you, to see what your response will be.
I believe that you need to lead the way as far as your XW and your D14 is concerned.
You must forgive your XW, NO EXPECTATIONS.
I think as a minimum you can thank her and forgive, but anything more than that would not be warranted.
She has used words not actions and you can use words not actions.
Mirroring what she has done.
She has not completed her journey yet, nor have you completed yours.
As far as opening the box, well I agree that is something you must do at some point in time.
But I thought you had shut the door on your XW?
I believe that right now you can not go back and open it back up again so easily.
But you can forgive her.
And hopefully she will at least someday rebuild the R with D14
I don't know if this is going to make sense because it happened for me so far past when it should have which is why I am saying this to you.
I am not speaking about my M. I am speaking about my first one.
The only way I can explain it to myself is that our emotions. Our memories. Good and bad. gain such gravity through time. As and when we expereince them. The loger we share time with someone tha more gravity accrues to them. It is compounded trememdously. I hesitate to put a mathmatical formula to it but i would say it is not linear. It increases at an increasing rate as we move through our M.
They really do.
It clusters around our heart like stardust pulled into a star.
They gain such gravity, emotional gravity, from our experience and time with our beloved that it becomes a force that cannot be ignored.
It cannot be shut away and forgotten.
When you do that it will always be tugging on you. Throwing you off course. Making you uneasy when you don't even know what or why the uneasiness comes.
The walking wounded...
How to heal?
When you acknowledge it. Look at it full on. Let its force have its way. Surrender to it.
It loses its power.
It IS ok for you to say
"I love my wife heart and soul and I always will. I will cherish and respect those memories and I will not let this thing that has come to diminish my life, destroy this that I know to be true
for me."
Try it. And see how it feels. The big bad monster of "what was and what might have been or may be yet to come"
Doesn't look so scary.
My dear friend. There is so much joy and love in you I know from knowing you.
Do not kill it. Do not hide it away in a box. Do not be afraid of it. Embrace it.
It is the way out of that dark place where you have hidden it.
This question for me made me realize what a burden I carried.
When I think of my M and the years and the memories do I feel pain or joy?
Which answer adds value to your life and which takes away?
It really is up to you create or destroy.
MHL,
It's wonderful that you have gotten an apology from XW. At the very least it is a peek out of the tunnel.
I agree with Cadet that your XW has dipped her toe in to temperature check.
I don't think you need to give much thought about whether you'd reconcile or not at this point. I read nothing in the message that she sent you that she was thinking along those lines.
Personally, I would be thrilled if my H sent a message like that because I would take it like he at least had started to come out of himself enough to start to survey the destruction his choices had caused.
I agree with the others that a short note accepting her apology, forgiving her, if you truly can, and thanking her for it would be the way to handle this at this time. It is the groundwork that is laid for whatever future R you decide to have with XW.
From there, you will be able to view her actions without really investing your heart again. As this unfolds further you'll be able to judge whether or not she is truly waking up and willing to do the work it would take for you to even consider reconciling. You have a lot of time to come to a decision, MHL.
I truly hope this is the beginning of the bridge that helps your D and XW start to rebuild a relationship with.
As far as guarantees that something like this would never happen again IF you were to R with your X, well you don't get one, none of us do with any R...
You're a good man MHL, and I wish you all the best.
MHL
Um, hello? Can we get some applause for this GIFT??
Did you see it? It's a genuine APOLOGY FROM A WAW.... Clap clap clap--
what?!!? We thought they didn't exist...
So MHL
Of course this knocks on the door of your heart. Of course it does. Part of you, at least, is reeling.
Too complex to address all that now.
So here are the two things that leap to mind when I read your thread.
First, she asked for nothing in the letter, not even a cup of coffee to "talk".
To me, that is a great sign. She knows she is no position to ask for anything but maybe that you not burn her letter.
I believe she wants to begin her journey to a better place within and part of that is making amends.
I truly believe she IS sorry, and at least to some extent, she gets it.
And she gets that she wasn't "ok in the head" for some time back then...
So kudos to her for the introspection this took
and the humbling nature of writing anything like this ever.
You know, it's SHE who could have been the one to say "too little too late" and used that to justify not reaching out at all.
Which brings me to my 2nd concern. YOUR D14.
Such a tender age (my youngest is that age and just began high school too).
Mothers matter. Forgiveness matters. Your d will be watching what YOU do even more than usual. Reassure her as much as possible that your w did/does indeed love her. And I KNOW your does. I can't imagine a mother not loving her 14 y/o d...(Hmm, literally I cannot imagine it so maybe I'm off base there...)
I for one say "Thank you God, and thank you MHL EXw, for showing that it can be done."
It's not the first time I've seen it however. Of The 3 others I know (yes, 3 WAS's who later called their exs) 2 simply felt real remorse
enough time had passed and the dust had settled, that they called their ex's to say "really sorry I hurt you"...
I don't think either of them wanted (or expected) to reconcile so much as to reach out and say that they now "got it."
The other one did want to reconcile and he reached out and they did reconcile.
Both sitches happen, obviously.
PS fwiw, my ex bil left my older sister 9 years ago, w/3 kids after 22 yrs of m. He broke her heart. My sister worked full time the whole m, as a nurse AND put him thru law school.
She is a fun attractive woman who is kind and loving to all. And she is beautiful. He was a fool, period. He was always a taker. Funny and smart, but selfish and remarkably self centered. You Get the picture?
so he leaves...she sobs, some years pass and they both remarry.
Shockingly, He's NOT happy with His "new" wife, whereas my sister is happier with her 'new h" of 6 years,
than she could ever be with her uber tense arrogant 'anger management candidate" h...Here's a vignette.
when the family dog was dying, my sister and her ex h didn't think having their new OPs around would make it comfortable for their children so
they each asked their new spouses to be scarce. My NEW BIL, the one who "Gets" my sister, was out the door (of his own house) without a word of complaint while my sister's exh came over.
Together, the "original" family thanked the dog, caressed and loved her and the vet came over and they all said goodbye and cried.
To his credit, my ex bil then took the dog and "handled" that part of the event. For awhile, they felt close to each other but it was bittersweet.
Later, I heard that my ex bil had to stay in a hotel for 2 nights b/c his new wife was
furious that SHE had
not been invited for the dog's departure.
He called my sister (HIS EX W) and shared this with Her..(he sought comfort from her of course...his new w hurt his feelings...sheesh..but hey-we don't kick a guy when he's down right?)
Anyhow my fav part is this.....
My sister asked him if he recalled what THEIR mc had told them about
unconditional love and her efforts...and if he ever thought about it.
Ex bil said "Yes I remember it. And I think of it every single day of my life."
A part of me is very sad for him but a part of me is righteously satisfied with the karma of all this. Fact is
Most WAS's don't ever tell the LBSer what they really think about their choices, later on.
My sister never "lost it" with her ex, she was dignified and showed a quiet strength throughout her ordeal. Maybe it made her more approachable.
I'll never know. Even though my sister went thru hell and her kids were deeply hurt
she's truly much happier with her h now than she ever would have been with her tenstion filled hair trigger tempered ex...
he did her a favor.
MHL, good luck on this part of the journey and with your precious d.
Know that no matter what else, This was a good thing. Savor it a bit.
Truegritter, wow, that was really helpful for me for so many reasons. I know this isn't my thread but thanks for posting that.
MHL,
If you're willing, I would really like to hear how your D is doing after having read the letter her Mom sent her.
HUGS
MHL,
If you're willing, I would really like to hear how your D is doing after having read the letter her Mom sent her.
HUGS
ditto that
Thank You all for your responses and suggestions........
I would respond to each of your comments individually to address what I think and how I was going to proceed given what I think........
However
I had the opportunity to talk with my XW tonight while she was dropping my S11 off from his weekend with her........
I will update you on what happened in a minute......I do want to answer one question from Grace.....
MHL,
If you're willing, I would really like to hear how your D is doing after having read the letter her Mom sent her.
HUGS
This is most important because no matter what this leads to between me and my XW, the relationship or the lack there of, between my D14 and my XW will hopefully get better as a result.
I will give a little back story on the situation with my D14 and my XW. My daughter knows way too much about what my XW did with regards to her multiple affairs and her behavior throughout our separation.
Some of it I will take responsibility for but most of it came from her mother. My daughter's issue with her mother is more about the lies that her mother told directly to my D14 over and over again rather than the men she had been with.
In the words of my D14, she has given her mother repeated chances to be in her life and everytime her mother lies to her or treats her like she is 6 years old.
Typical for an MLCer as we all know, but extremely painful for my D14. My D14 made the decision to protect herself and "go dark", her therapist.....one of the best child therapists in the city supports this decision and agrees it is a healthy decision for my D14.
When I gave my D14 the envelope addressed to her and mailed via USPS from my XW she initially did not want to read nor had any real interest. My D14 asked "what it was?" and I told her that it was from her mother and that I got a letter too. She asked what was in the letter that her mom sent her and I stated that I did not know but that mine was an apology.
My D14 shrugged it off and went back to watching TV without openning the letter.......I went upstairs to change out of my work clothes. When I came back down my D14 had gone upstairs to change also. (We were going to her High School Football Game)
When I came back down I could see that the letter had been openned and my D14 just left it on the couch. I went over to read it as my D14 was upstairs and I found that it was exactly like mine.......word for word.....the only difference was how it started.....mine started with "MHL".......my daughter's started out "Daughter".
After that, no difference.
I figured that there was not much thought that went into either letter and figured that the apology was contrite and somewhat self-serving and so I decided not to ask my D14 what she thought because I figured that my XW was just taking the very first step in what would be a very long journey.
So, Grace.....in a very long winded way.........my daughter did not think much about it or at least she did not talk to me about it. I have learned in the last 2 years that I get more out of my daughter when she initiates the conversation rather than me.
I will tell her therapist about the letter and also what happened tonight so they can talk about it when they meet on Tuesday.
I think that my D14 has come to terms with the choice to not have her mother in her life......forever or at least until my D14 changes her mind.
My D14 and myself have both put in place protective measures..........good ones.
I don't encourage my D14 in either direction on her relationship with her mother.......I just make sure that I support her no matter what she decides to do or NOT do.........and my D14 knows that.
I know and have heard.....and so has my D14 how very important it is for a young lady like my Daughter to have her mother in her life.
I get it.....I DO understand it........
however
The condition that my XW was in was harmful to my D14.......therefore it was a "healthy" decision that my D14 made for herself.......knowing full well, the consequences of that decision.
I think that moving forward I will stress to my D14 that it is okay to change her mind later on........that just because she chooses to not have contact with her mother now does not mean that she can't decide later to initiate contact with her mother.......especially if her mother has changed.
The other thing that I am going to stress to my D14 is that just as her mother was capable of changing from the person she knew before the MLC hit.........it is possible for her mother to change again, and moreover she may change in a way that could even make her a better person than she was before the MLC.
sorry for the long post.........I will make another post about my interaction with my XW tonight.
I think that to forgive, most people need an apology. I think that is why so many of us would love to get a letter like the one you got: it helps us move on.
I got a sort of bungled but still nasty apology (basically telling me that I should forgive him). Since it was bungled and halfway, I don't put much of anything into it.
My suggestion would be to let yourself be a little vulnerable to feel the hurt. This means your wound has a chance to heal some and you have a chance to forgive and grow. This is good for YOU.
As far as opening up to ever be anything besides polite to each other, you don't have to do that. You could acknowledge receipt and allow that it opens the door for friendship, but it doesn't have to be anything else.
Your post actually made me realize that I am still on this site because I want to learn to forgive.
Update......
I was outside when my XW pulled in the driveway with our S11 from his weekend with her.
I walked over and greeted my S11 with a warm hug and we all stood there for a minute chit chatting and my son was eager to get inside and hit the video games before bed, so off he went.
I purposely lingered as I figured this was a good time to acknowledge the letter my XW had sent.
MHL: I got your letter..........I appreciate it, I know that must have been hard for you.
XW: Yes it was hard, there is so much more I want to say but it is hard to put it down on paper because I just don't know why I did what I did. I knew it was bad and I honestly don't know why I did it.
MHL: Well if you would like to sit down and talk sometime I would not mind listening if it will help you.
XW: (She almost responded but got a little choked up and just nodded)
MHL: Well I appreciate the gesture.....it is nice to hear you say that, it lets me know that the person that I knew before is still there. I don't mean that for me but rather for you. I hope that you find your way as you start to deal with this stuff.
XW: I am working on it.........I just did not know or realize what the consequences would be.........I just was not in my right mind.......I don't know why.
MHL: The answers will come in time and it will take some time.....do not rush it. In the beginning of all this people would tell me it would be better in time and that time was my friend, but you can not "know" that until the time has past and you can look back on it. The other thing is that you have to not look for it in any particular time........in fact the "looking for it" prevents it from happening........it will happen when you are not looking for it to happen.
XW: Thank you
MHL: No problem, I am happy that you are taking steps to a better you.
XW: How is D14?
.......at this point we had about 10 minutes of idle chit chat about the kids.....I chose to fill her in on some of the details of our daughter's life and things she is doing. We talked about the upcoming school year and different things........
The whole time I tried to look at her in the face........it is hard, I have trained myself not to do it..........I trained myself well, it is an automatic behavior......it is no different than breathing for me. I don't look her in the face to protect me.
I can remember when I would look her in the eyes everytime we talked so I could catch a glimpse of the person I used to know......now I don't want to see that person.......seeing that person hurts me.
Tonight...........MY WIFE WAS BACK
the alien was no where to be found.
The conversation turned back to the letters........
XW: Did D14 read her letter? Did she say anything?
MHL: Yes, she did read it but she did not say anything, I try not to bring it up unless she does and then I let her lead the conversation........We have not talked about it in a while.
XW: (tears flowing now) I am so sorry, there is so much more I want to say.
MHL: (I am now looking her in the face) Like I said, I can sit down with you anytime if you would like to talk.
XW: Okay (tears flowing)
At that point it is hard to see my XW crying so I moved towards her to give her a hug.
She held me tight for a very long time........I could feel her body shudder as she sobbed in my arms. I just held her......I wanted to tell her that it would all be okay......but I held back.
I let down the walls quite a bit tonight.........I went looking for the box that I had hidden way down inside me..........I did a good job because I did not find it tonight......
I don't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing.
I do know that I am capable of having a more meaningful and "unprotected" conversation with her without getting hurt.
Does not mean that next time I might not trip over that box and spill out my feelings for her.......for tonight it did not happen.
So the hug started to end, I did not let go until she started to, I wanted to be there for her as long as she needed me to be.....standing in my driveway for all the neighbors to see and I vaguely remember some of them being outside at the time.
As we pulled away I did feel the urge to lean in a kiss her on the forehead as I had done so many countless times before.........I am 6'3" and she is 5'5".......forehead kisses are "vertically convenient".......but I again resisted the urge and just pulled away.
XW: I do need to ask you something.
I was not ready for that and I know I had a look of surprise on my face as I was not sure what she was going to say next and also that it was being asked within the context of that very long hug..........
MHL: Can you help me set up this TV at my house/ (tv in her back seat)
Whew!!!! that was close.......I thought that she was going to ask me about my girlfriend or something like that, that I was not prepared for.
I told her that I could set it up on Thursday when she has our S11 b/c I have other things going on the other nights of the week, and she said okay.
I said that I needed to get inside to visit with S11 before bedtime and she said okay. This time she moved towards me for another long tight hug.
I let go first this time and caressed her hair before letting go.
She backed out of the drive way and pulled away much, much slower than she usually does and she was looking at me as I stood in the garage and waved goodbye.
It was clear to me that she did not want to leave.
I strangely felt like I was the WAS and I felt bad for her as she was leaving............that was a little over 2 hours ago.......I can't help but wonder if she is in pain right now, much like I was when the roles were reversed.
I know that sounds vindictive but the thought is actually empathetic........I know that pain........while I know that it will be difficult for her...........
I also know that through her suffering she will grow.........
and hopefully find happiness.
I have never hoped for her to find happiness before tonight.......I have actually thought of her being mesirable the rest of her life.........that is gone.
I think I may have forgiven her tonight.
Much to think on.........
Cheers
I think you handled that pretty well.
I can't help but wonder if she is in pain right now, much like I was when the roles were reversed. ....
I also know that through her suffering she will grow.........
I'm sure she has been suffering all along - just not recognizing it.
It sounds like a lot of this stuff is getting a central role in her consciousness now, and its really a big hit. It's probably similar to the kind of hit the LBS takes when they start to look themselves in the mirror and own their own 'stuff.' Only - I would imagine - perhaps more intense given the destruction the WAS causes.
It's great that you want her to find happiness - that is a good place to be for you and for your kids to see.
I was not ready for that and I know I had a look of surprise on my face as I was not sure what she was going to say next and also that it was being asked within the context of that very long hug..........
MHL: Can you help me set up this TV at my house/ (tv in her back seat)
MHL I suspect that you are experiencing some very conflicting emotions right now.
I was thinking about your sitch as i was driving through the fantastic countryside near where I live, on a glorious late summer day, and realised how content with my life I am. My h apologised just over 18 months ago, but didn't follow through with action, at the time, but since our divorce we have been exchanging cordial emails. Now, the question hasn't arisen of this going further, and it perhaps never will, but I am very aware of how much I value my current happiness because it was so hard, initially, to achieve.
My xh has been gone longer than your xw, my marriage was longer, and perhaps most importantly I am not in a relationship with anyone else. BUT having detached, I am really not at all sure I will ever want more than a reasonably cordial relationship.
I truly do not know whether it is fear or detachment, or the passage of time, or simply somewhere I do not want to go again. But if any of this sounds familiar, you are not alone!
MHL
I was just going to comment about your D14 who is the best DB'er around BTW.
I think IMHO she will be following the mantra of believe nothing of what they say and half of what they do.
Your wife gave her words, no actions.
D14 will more than likely only respond to actions not words. And even then it is going to be a very tough sell.
Hang in there my friend and stay on your path, the journey continues.
MHL I suspect that you are experiencing some very conflicting emotions right now.
My thought as well.
I feel this may force you to do some digging that might not be a whole of fun. But it also may end up being a very valuable piece of the process. The journey certainly continues...
Be well man.
My xh has been gone longer than your xw, my marriage was longer, and perhaps most importantly I am not in a relationship with anyone else. BUT having detached, I am really not at all sure I will ever want more than a reasonably cordial relationship.
I truly do not know whether it is fear or detachment, or the passage of time, or simply somewhere I do not want to go again. But if any of this sounds familiar, you are not alone.
Yup. I' m with you 100% on your feelings/thoughts Beatrice.
MHL
My XW has given me an apology that is global at best and a little self-serving at worst.
I am not sure I see the self serving part of the letter MHL….because maybe I think she is truly sorry for what she has done. Consider this, as an LBS’er when the bomb drop we apologize and ask for forgiveness for all of our mistakes….what makes her letter any different. Maybe…she is remorseful but does not want to come back? Does that make her apology self serving?
My other comment are…Antonia said it best with this……
What else could you say? If there is ANY part of you at all, even ONE IOTA that thinks you have it in you to explore reconciliation at some point, I think you could write something that leaves it all open.
You can simply thank her, say that it must have been hard to say that, and say that if she wants to talk to you in more depth, you would be willing to listen.
This lets you open the door but you're doing so with no promises, no pushing, no in-depth queries that might be too much yet, and if she says she wants to, then you may end up speaking about things more. If she doesn't do anything, I think you haven't put yourself out on a limb where you can face rejection.
Simply saying you're willing to LISTEN to her more is not setting yourself up to be rejected and hurt again. All it's saying is that you have made this long journey of self-improvement and you are willing to allow someone else who hurt you the space to apologize, etc.
My second comment is….read what True and 25 wrote…again…and again….
FTR, part of me does not envy your position right now Bro.
My last comment….
What does it hurt you to accept her apology?
Why not?
She can only hurt you IF YOU allow it?
Reconciliation is not anything I would looking at right now…that said, the fact that you even thought of it says what to YOU?
Actually….now my last comments since I just read your last interaction…..
I am proud of you man!
I am proud to know you!
Much to think on.........
Why not think too much about it….and keep being YOU….
The rest leave up to God!
Love ya Man!
Eric
Thank you for posting
I got a lot out of your post and interaction with your wife
again another validation of the dark world of the MLCer
Peace
Thank you all,
I can not lie, I did not get much done today.
My XW occuppied my mind.....
My Daughter occuppied my mind....
My Son occuppied my mind......
My Girlfriend occuppied my mind....
I am going to stop short of saying that I got knocked off track a little yesterday.........
I think I got a little bit of what I wanted from my W in order to be her friend.......
I remember somewhere in the middle of my sitch.....my W wanted to be my friend but she was still spinning and unsure and it still caused me great pain.
I am okay with her again......it is a big relief, I feel like I can be me again when I am with her. It is okay for me to like the person I knew before, I think she is changed but I think that maybe some of her core values are back.........I will know for sure as I interact with her.
I still feel that I might be walking around though in a dimly lit room..........and somewhere in that room is that box with all that LOVE inside..........I am afraid I will bump the box or even trip over it.
I think this week I may need to focus a little more on the GAL activities.
Cheers
Hey MHL.
You've been a tremendous help to me in my sitch. I'm so glad that you saw your W for a while and not the damn alien. Would you be upset if I said that I was just a little envious of you?
I'm glad for you buddy. Just be careful.
I haven't read your entire sitch yet, but I'm wondering if there is still an OM involved.
Thanks for everything man.
Tad
I haven't read your entire sitch yet, but I'm wondering if there is still an OM involved.
Thanks for everything man.
Tad
Tad,
You are welcome buddy, it took me a while to get where I am today.
Honestly there will come a day where other men won't matter anymore......you will leave your W to her own journey whether it is other men, drinking, spending money, eating or whatever.....they are all just things that she is trying to medicate her pain with.........
I know you are struggling and that is okay.....this is the hardest thing that you will ever do. I will tell you that when you let go.....really there will come such a peace.
I hope you find it sooner rather than later.
Cheers
I am okay with her again......it is a big relief, I feel like I can be me again when I am with her. It is okay for me to like the person I knew before, I think she is changed but I think that maybe some of her core values are back.........I will know for sure as I interact with her.
This sounds like a very healthy first step here MHL.
I still feel that I might be walking around though in a dimly lit room..........and somewhere in that room is that box with all that LOVE inside..........I am afraid I will bump the box or even trip over it.
I think this week I may need to focus a little more on the GAL activities.
I get it. I have to admit though man. I fear you may be only putting off the inevitable.
If there are things in the box that you have still not fully processed. Things you are still scared to face.
IDK man. You might want to think about facing them head on. I think the risk is. They pop out when you're not looking. And then....
MHL (I remember reading you as 'Missher..')
I'm new to posting here (had some security issues) but have accumulated a lot of your posts over the year or so I followed.
And THIS shows me how ingrained your manner is.
MHL: The answers will come in time and it will take some time.....do not rush it. In the beginning of all this people would tell me it would be better in time and that time was my friend, but you can not "know" that until the time has past and you can look back on it. The other thing is that you have to not look for it in any particular time........in fact the "looking for it" prevents it from happening........it will happen when you are not looking for it to happen.
You and your "Time"
I'm so "proud" to see you have the same natural DB attitude you have used for your own progress; that you try to teach those here; with your XW.
Brilliant
Exemplary
Thank you.
(LLF1)
Live
Laugh
Fortitude
1 Day at a Time
Thanks AK,
I appreciate the compliment......this place has taught me much about myself, other people in my live and the relationships I have with those people.
I think my XW is taking some positive steps in her journey, I think that since I have seen a little bit more of the "old her" again and I have genuinely moved forward with my own live, I can actually wish her well and try to show her support for her on this journey.
I think she knows what she needs to do or at least has an idea of what success might look like for her, it is allowing oneself the proper TIME for that to happen.
I would interested to read your story sometime.
Cheers
Well, I went over to my XW's last night to set up a TV that her mother gave her. The TV she has is starting to go so her mom gave her an old one.......27" behemoth.....it was more about me getting it out of her car and in the house than it was hooking it up. Som' b!tch was heavy!!!!!
She usually drives out to get my S11 on Tues and Thurs. I volunteered to bring him to her place and pick up dinner on the way.....she offered to pick up some beer. I guess the beer made it more social.
The 3 of us sat down in her small little kitchen and ate subway and her and I had some beers before I lugged the TV into her house.
It was nice, she was very nice and accomodating, she offered to get me things and make sure I was comfortable. My XW is a cat person and apparently there was a stray cat under her deck that had some kittens and she was showing me the 3 little kittens running around going in and out of the house. The kittens provided the icebreaker and laughter that was needed to put everyone at ease. The beer probably helped too.
I still found myself not totally looking her in the face and I was definitely more reserved in my demeanor but I was not uncomfortable and I was not thinking how messed up in the head she is/or used to be.
She was trying last night, I am pretty sure. There were butterfly touches she was doing, she was trying to be funny and keep it light.
Tables are totally turned from 2 years ago. I am the WAS.
I have changed.....I know it. I am a totally different person than I was 2 years ago.....I sense that she has come back from where ever it is that she went........thing is, I am not where she left me.
We finished eating and then I brought in the TV and set it up. My son plopped down on the couch and watched TV and my XW and I popped another couple of beers and sat in the kitchen and talked.
I showed her pictures of me and the kids from the cruise we took over spring break.......I knew she would enjoy seeing pictures of our D14. We talked about the cruise the kids and I took and she stated that she had not been on a "real" vacation since the last time we all went as a family on a cruise in spring of 2009, just weeks before she met OM. (he is not in the picture)
She then asked about my upcoming trip to Mexico with my girlfriend. We talked about it and I stated that I was looking forward to a week long break from no kids and no responsibility.
She stated that she wished she could take more than three days in a row from kids. When she said that, the thought crossed my mind that she had been on many, many kidless 3 day weekends with other men, friends and whatever over the last 2 years. The nice thing is that I did not feel pain, resentment, nor anything other than the fact that is how she felt. It was just information......"conversation fodder".
As I reflect back on it.......I can remember being in utter anguish and pain knowing she was off at the beach or a winery or the mountains or where ever with the other men. I remember thinking how unfair it was, how she was living the life with no responsibilities at all........now I am living the life for real.......I am doing well and taking vacations and my life has moved forward without her.
I wonder if she connects the two situations like I do???
She went on to ask a little bit about my girlfriend, what she did for a living and about her kids. Nothing deeper. It felt a little funny telling her about my girlfriend, but I have nothing to hide and I did not rub her face in it.
I did not ask if she was dating anyone........don't want to know. I do not think she is but I am not going to ask.
It got to be around 9 pm and my S11 needed to get to bed and I needed to get home to my D14 so I said I needed to go b/c of D14 and she said okay. I kissed my son goodnite and she walked me out. She thanked me for helping with the TV and I said "no problem, anytime." I told her good bye and turned and left. No hugs or anything like that just 2 friends saying goodbye.
I am left thinking this about my XW..........
I will continue to be friendly with her........it is who I AM.
It feels better, I don't feel like a doormat or like I am being taken advantage of because I do not view myself as a victim..........
Why am I not a victim????
My LIFE IS GOOD!!!! I made it that way, I am happy.
I am the MAN she fell in love with so many years ago, but now I am even better. The thing that is different is that I am that MAN she fell in love with.....for me.......not for her.
I sense that she may want there to be more than friendship between us, I am not sure I would want that or to even explore that right now.
I am going to continue to be friendly to her and probably even be her friend again.
I will say this.....it is nice to do what feels right for a change. I do not have to do what is counter intuitive anymore.
I am still trying to shut down the automatic protection mode of operation around her............I had a little success this morning when she dropped off our son's stuff from last night.
She came in the house and we talked a minute or two about some things and then I gave her a very warm smile as I was saying good bye........she stopped and smiled back warmly.
It was nice.
Sorry for the length.....guess it was more journaling than anything.
Cheers
I am proud of you DUDE....
And honored to know you...
For many of us, you are the model of success!
Eric
Great stuff MHL.
I will say this.....it is nice to do what feels right for a change. I do not have to do what is counter intuitive anymore.
Love this.
Keep doing the right thing. And you're bound to head in the right direction.
Peace.
Attaboy, M. Well done you.
Good for you man. You're an inspiration to many.
Tad
MHL-
"And the winner is.......
My LIFE IS GOOD!!!! I made it that way, I am happy.
I am the MAN she fell in love with so many years ago, but now I am even better. The thing that is different is that I am that MAN she fell in love with.....for me .......not for her.
My story? You know it already.
Most of these sitches are all the same other than dates and times. Infidelity or MLC. Mine was the former.
Back when I was copy and pasting stuff from your thread and posts to theirs, you were posting with PEI, TrueGritter, J Deere and Bear.
Like it was a club or something.
LLF1
Live Laugh Fortitude (or fun!)
1 Day at a TIME
Wait. It's not a club? <drat>
MHL, been following the thread. Glad to hear your daughter is doing so much better. Sounds like you and your son are as well. The good thing would be if you can help support a relationship, should it happen, with your W and D.
My thought there? Be protective and be cautious. It is not likely that she'll "snap" out of it. More likely fits and starts if a relationship were to take hold there. I cannot for the life of me think your W is done with the process yet. Not based on what I read here...
Enjoy Mexico. Viva la vida loca, amigo.
AJ
Update time…..
Sorry I have not been around lately. I have been focusing on work lately which is a good thing. I have found a “new normal” in my life. I guess that the business of living that life takes up a lot of my time. It amazes me how “on hold” my life was for a long time and how the turmoil in my marriage interrupted the “balance” in my life.
Well, since my last update about 2 months ago when my XW sent an apology letter, we have been getting along fine. I have allowed myself to interact with her a little more and I am currently working with her to help our son who is struggling a little in school. (nothing major….he just needs less video games and more study time).
There has not been anymore from my XW concerning the apology, our relationship, or anything else. My D14 is working with her therapist to send letters back and forth with her mother as a means of communication. I am not involved at all, however the therapist is enthusiastic about my D14’s progress. The therapist has also spoken with my XW to explain the process of the letters and that the goal of the communication is to help our D14.
Well out of the blue yesterday I get the following text from my XW…….
XW: I have a question for you..
MHL: Shoot
XW: I know this seems way out in left field..but are you and your girlfriend getting married? I had a dream last night you are.
MHL: I don't mind you asking, but why are you asking?
XW: I had a dream and it seemed very real when I woke up and I just needed to know.
XW: I can't concentrate right now and that is what I keep playing over in my head.
MHL: Does it bother you, how are you feeling about it?
XW: Yes, it does bother me. and my heart hurts.
XW: That is why I need to know.
MHL: I know that pain, why does your heart hurt?
XW: I can't imagine u being married to someone else. can you please tell me??
MHL: No, there are no plans to get married. If you can't imagine that then what is it that you want?
XW: Thank you for telling me! I want both of us and our kids to be happy. Not sure what that picture is yet..but I keep praying!!!
MHL: You are not happy? What are you praying for?
XW: U are full of questions today aren't you??? LOL!!! I pray for all of us to be happy! I am at a point in my life I never thought I would be. But I think God is trying to teach me several lessons. I feel like the man left in the desert to find his way in life.
XW: Are you happy???
MHL: I am happy, but not because I am with or without someone........I am happy with me.
XW: Good that is great to hear!
MHL: Do you want to talk about it?
So my XW came over to the house last night, she has done this before in the last couple of weeks in order to visit with our S11 when he was supposed to go over to her place but instead stayed at home with me because he needed my help with homework. Lets just say that I am better equipped to help with some of the math homework than my XW. This is one of the ways that we are communicating better since the apology, and it is nice to work together for the common good of our S11. D14 was at friend’s house working on a project.
After helping our S11 with his homework, my XW and I sat down and talked.
She did most of the talking. She told me how she wonders if we have a chance to work things out again but is unsure. She is still scared that things would go back to the way they were, meaning that I would revert to old habits. My XW did not talk about her role in the downfall of our marriage and there were no apologies or remorse just talk of being unsure.
She was concerned about infringing on my current relationship and she said that she did not want to give me “false hope”. When she said that it sent a little bit of a chill down my spine, not because I had any hope for anything but rather it was a flashback to the days of her lies and the storm and everything else. I can remember her using those exact words many times before.
We spoke openly about “us” and the past and shared with each other that we both missed being a spouse in a marriage and that the mundane things in life are the things that bring us joy in a relationship. Things like coffee on the patio, working in the yard together, getting the kids ready for school, going on vacation.
My XW started to open up a little more and she said that when we were doing chores around the house that she wanted to be “with” me while we were doing things. If I was outside working on the yard, she wanted to be out there working in the yard, if I was upstairs folding laundry, she wanted to be upstairs with me.
She went on to say that she thinks about the good times now and that it is hard to remember the bad times.
I was honest with her and told her that our roles have reversed and that I think more about the bad times now and that I try not to think about the good times in the past because it is painful.
She also said that it has been nice to interact with me over the last 2 months and that she is enjoying it. She called it a “baby step”, she did not say what it was a baby step to nor did she say what she wants. She did say that she is not sure what it is that she wants.
She said that she is trying to be happy on her own, by herself. She volunteered that she is not dating anyone and that work is keeping her happy right now. She said that if she did not have work that she would probably sleep all day. Depression ????
It was getting to be a little late and it was time for my D14 to come home so she decided to leave. I gave her a good long hug and a peck on the check and she returned the friendly kiss and she held on tight while we were hugging.
Sorry for the length.
What I came away with is this…..
She is still on her journey…..she even said so…….I told her that I hope she does find happiness and contentment in being on her own. I think that she is still checking to make sure that I am still an option, I told her that also and she acknowledged the fact. I stated that if I got married that I was not an option for her anymore and she agreed.
I think that she feels herself moving on her journey and she is checking on the things around her. In a way I think that she has been stuck for a long time and the people around her have kept on moving. I see her moving through her MLC, and I also see that she is not done. I think that she is coming to realize that she is not happy where she is at and that the grass is not so green on the other side.
The lesson for all of us is that it is not about finding that green patch of grass but rather learning to grow the green grass under your own feet.
For me, I am remain happy and I am a little surprised that I am unaffected by this latest development. I have waited over 2 years to hear that my XW cared about me, and it finally came but my path remains the same.
Cheers
MHL, what gave me the "chill" you describe is her saying the part about not wanting YOU to revert to old habits...because that, coupled with her not talking about herself anymore, again made it seem like she was externalizing the problems of the marriage on to you. I had this bizarre flash, when I read that, of my XH someday saying the same thing to me and it all but enraging me ;-) because I know very well that I've made a ton of good changes for me and he's in Stucksville from what I can tell.
BUT.
I also admit that I'm reading that part as a spouse scorned. There are a million reasons that a person might say that and NOT the other stuff, and one may frankly be embarrassment or even care. As in, she can see that you've become a better person, and she is almost indicating that she doesn't want to fool with YOU and YOUR life, which is a different way to view that statement.
In any case, what I'm happy to hear is that you were unaffected by this and staying with your path. You have a really good sense of detachment about her now and that's going to keep serving you well.
Glad to hear from you.
You are an inspiration man.
I love this too:
The lesson for all of us is that it is not about finding that green patch of grass but rather learning to grow the green grass under your own feet.
Keep us posted.
Tad
Yup it sounds like she is sticking to the script, no real surprises there.
Maybe she has left replay and is in depression/withdrawal stage.
But you are correct that she is still within her crisis.
Good job listening and being her stanchion.
I am glad you are doing well MHL.
Glad to hear things are changing and that your D is doing better. Glad to hear you have your balance about you.
How's the GF reacting to the ex coming around?
AJ
MHL, what gave me the "chill" you describe is her saying the part about not wanting YOU to revert to old habits...because that, coupled with her not talking about herself anymore, again made it seem like she was externalizing the problems of the marriage on to you.
Antonia,
Yes, she is definitely externalizing the demise of the marriage. I suspect it is way too painful to look at her actions and think about them. My XW is currently exchanging letters with my D14 (soon to be 15) and they are going through my daughter's therapist. The issues that my daughter has with her mother are the same as mine but from a perspective of daughter and mine are from the perspective of a husband.
I think that it takes a very long time for the MLCer to start to think about and put themselves in the shoes of those people around them that they have hurt.
My XW has acknowledged that her decisions have caused pain however she sees her own pain as an "equalizer" of sorts. They have to realize that they are the "architects" of their own misery. I think that comes when they start to realize that they alone have the power to make themselves truly happy.
When and if they do ever trully make themselves happy then comes the realization that no one else in their lives ever really caused them to have the problems they had or are having.
We too hopefully find this out.......when you do it is liberating and life changing.
You are an inspiration man.
I love this too:
The lesson for all of us is that it is not about finding that green patch of grass but rather learning to grow the green grass under your own feet.
Keep us posted.
Tad
Tad,
Thank you, I am glad that my story inspires you. I come back to post my story to show that this thing, MLC does exist and it takes a very long time.
MLC is not an excuse, just an explaination of something that is nothing short of horrific for everyone involved. My hope is that anyone reading, and especially you TAD, can gain some insight or perspective or some better understanding to their own situation.
Hard to believe that I am 2 years and 4 months post bomb and I still clearly see that my XW is still in the throws of her MLC. After this much time you get to be a professional at spotting the behavior and the language of the MLCer. The understanding helps you remain detached and unaffected by their words and deeds.
Cheers
I am glad you are doing well MHL.
Cadet,
Thanks, hope you are too.
Happy Little Friday!!!!
Cheers
~C
If one is good then 2 has got to be better.....right???
LOL!!!
Happy Little Friday!!!
Holy jumpin cheese balls Swiss....
I didn't think about that one...
I randomly picked a state.....LMFAO !!!!!
You remember the journey....right ?
How's the GF reacting to the ex coming around?
AJ
Hey AJ,
I have been pretty open with my girlfriend about my XW. I did tell her about the apology letter because it affects my D14 and my girlfriend is part of my children's lives as I am a part of hers.
My GF and I have some pretty robust and fairly deep discussions about relationships and individual wants and needs. I have not shared this latest exchange with my GF. Not so sure that the topic of "marriage" would serve our relationship very well right now. It is not something that is on the radar and not neccessarily something I want to discuss.
I am not considering a run at reconciliation with my XW so it is not part of my relationship with my GF.
One of the things that my XW and I talked about was the fact that she does not know what she wants.....ie, she is not interested in reconciliation or even trying. I told her that obviously if I get married I am not an option for her or anyone else. I also told her that I like the idea of being married and that I would like to be married again one day whether or not it is with my current GF remains unseen at this point.
I very clearly told my XW that I am going to continue to live my life and right now I am sharing my life with my GF. That could lead to marriage or not.....who knows????
As time goes on and my feelings grow for my GF, I can say that a little bit of the "bond" I had with my XW diminishes a little bit. I still love my XW and always will, but time does take its toll and I have put a wall around those feelings with my XW and I am nuturing those same feelings with my GF, so life marches on and I will not put my life "on hold" again.
I will say that this experience has changed how I am building the relationship with my GF. If I am feeling something, I tell her without fear, that is probably the single biggest thing that I have learned. If my needs are not being met then I let her know, and usually there is something that I am not doing that she is reacting to and we deal with it. The thing is that whatever it is that is bothering her is something that I did not even realize I was or was not doing and I am more than happy to correct.
Hope you are doing well also AJ.......
Happy Little Friday!!!
Cheers
Going through MLC with someone makes us so much a better partner, communicator, and friend in other relationships...
Holy jumpin cheese balls Swiss....
I didn't think about that one...
I randomly picked a state.....LMFAO !!!!!
You remember the journey....right ?
Well, your mind goes where it is gonna go......Freudian slip maybe?????? ROTFLMAO!!!!
I am not so sure that 2 would be a blessing, probably more like a curse, LOL!!!!
Yes, I remember the journey......
and I appreciate your assessment of my progress on that journey.......honestly I don't even know where the destination lies any more or if there is an endpoint.
It is funny because when I was talking to my XW the other night she was talking about being on a "journey" and she wants to get to that place where she is happy on her own. She is so very focused on the destination and not on taking the "steps" to get there.
It is the action of taking the steps that makes you trully happy.......soooooooo
While I may be in Utah and nearing the Pacific Ocean, I am sure I will be turning around and coming right back......kinda of like Forrest Gump!!!!
Cheers
I wasn't totally referring to your journey either...
But I do like what you are saying too...
Maybe you are meeting, one going one way, the other going the other way...
Who the hell knows....
You know how I feel about what you have done for yourself....
HLF bro
Boneheads...sigh...
Boneheads...sigh...
ahhhhhh......yup.
So you are making the trip on Saturday......
I will actually be around but not so sure that I am on the way......
Pit stop will be open if needed!!!
HLF!!!
Thanks...
Probably out of the way...
We will see though...
MHL, what gave me the "chill" you describe is her saying the part about not wanting YOU to revert to old habits...because that, coupled with her not talking about herself anymore, again made it seem like she was externalizing the problems of the marriage on to you.
You can analyze, overthink, justify your part and even dismiss this fear; and no matter what you do, if you don't understand that this fear is valid on their part, in fact if you don't have this fear about yourself, even just a little?
Then your not really reconcilling anything. That old behaviour was a driving force in their choice to leave, to cheat to, divorce, to cut you out of their life.
To me there are three things the MLC must overcome if they are going to be the LBS's life...a healthy LBSer. : )
1 - the MLC itself.
2 - Pride over judgement and condemnation from others.
3 - their fear that the LBS has not actually changed and this is all a trick.
MHL, what gave me the "chill" you describe is her saying the part about not wanting YOU to revert to old habits...because that, coupled with her not talking about herself anymore, again made it seem like she was externalizing the problems of the marriage on to you.
You can analyze, overthink, justify your part and even dismiss this fear; and no matter what you do, if you don't understand that this fear is valid on their part, in fact if you don't have this fear about yourself, even just a little?
Then your not really reconcilling anything. That old behaviour was a driving force in their choice to leave, to cheat to, divorce, to cut you out of their life.
To me there are three things the MLC must overcome if they are going to be the LBS's life...a healthy LBSer. : )
1 - the MLC itself.
2 - Pride over judgement and condemnation from others.
3 - their fear that the LBS has not actually changed and this is all a trick.
Great points Jack and I do agree that there is that fear in me.
My XW's major complaint about me was my temper and mood swings (which was really my brooding when my needs were not being met), I was a classic case of "No more Mr. Nice Guy".
It haunts me everytime I have to "get stern" with my son or daughter. Afterwards I wonder if the kids think of the "old Dad" that would get mad at the drop of a hat.
I would be interested to have further conversations with my XW and ask why she feels comfortable now being in my presence.....could be that she knows she has her own place and could bail out at any time. Funny thing is everything is totally reversed now.....she draws out the conversations, she lingers when we are together, she suggests things that will put us in contact. I on the otherhand do just the opposite.
I think that in the beginning and for a long time we the LBSer are faking the changes because we are making them for our weyward spouses.......it is not until you make the changes for YOU that they become real.
I think that in the beginning and for a long time we the LBSer are faking the changes because we are making them for our weyward spouses.......it is not until you make the changes for YOU that they become real.
MHL, I hope everyone reads your statement above 10 million times. It is SO true and something that I try to drive home to many, but so few actually grasp it. Especially in the beginning, everyone is so concerned about saving their marriage that they (despite recommendations by the not-so-newbies) forget about themselves and concentrate on doing things FOR their spouse. There are a lot of "rationalizations" on these boards that these are genuine changes for themselves. But you hit the nail on the head. If they aren't for YOU, they won't stick and won't be genuine. Thanks for sharing that insight.
Thanks for updating, M. Now dont be a stranger, ya hear?
MHL and J3B...here's another reason I posted that comment, and I wonder if you have thoughts about this...
I find it fairly easy at this point to be the "best person I can be" and keep my "180s" intact and I feel like it is because my XH is not in my life.
I am convinced that my XH brought out the worst in me. Maybe I brought out the worst in him.
He and I were SO codependent for SO long...
I am not a damsel in distress by any stretch...but he likes being the knight in shining armor.
I feel like if he were around, because that is who he always was..that I'd easily revert to old ways.
Or...I'm no longer a spiteful or manipulative person. But if he were around, I could see me regressing in a second.
So when the MLCer asks about if the changes are "real", this is what I wonder...are those changes only real with other people, or are the changes null and void when the MLCer who is part of the past life of the LBSer brings them back out?
I will say that even though my XH is not in any contact with me, that if things were to change, my greatest fear now isn't that he'd cheat on me again if I took him back.
It's that I'd lose who I became by taking him back.
Make sense?
A very thought provoking post. I realise that many MLCers are very manipulative people [probably because they are damaged goods] Looking back I can see that my xh became manipulative as his MLC took hold, and I responded initially, and became very unhappy as a result.
So yes, I think that until we continue to live our own lives for quite some time, there is a real risk we could revert to old ways. finally though those ways become us, and are so embedded that I don't think the reversion would take place, although the MLCer, unless they have dealt with their issues, might try. But at that point, unless they ad changed themselves, I don't think we would want the pre MLC marriage.
I spent a little time with my xh a couple of years ago, and one of the things he noted was that I had 'changed' But he loved me before he left and liked and approved of me. He says he never stopped liking me, just stopped being 'in love'. He always praises my good qualities
just didn't want to live with them!!
I no longer want to change 'for him' MHL made a very good point there. I can see my xh is the one with real problems, so I made the changes for me. I don't mean that I am satisfied with everything about myself btw, still work in progress!
I don't think you would revert to old ways - I think you might have done 6 months ago, and you might be tempted today, but every day that goes by makes it less and less likely that you would have a relationship with the man your xh is anymore, unless he changed too.
The other part of the dynamic is how we act around different people. Some people don't bring out the best in us and it occurs at such a low level it is next to impossible to perceive. Happens slowly and over time.
I agree, we change and we stay changed. But we don't truly know until tested, no?
The trick to a relationship with anyone, friend or otherwise, is to change together and to work to bring out the best. Think about your relationship with your best friend. You each have your faults. But you choose to overlook those faults. But when you look at yourself you look to see if your friend brings out the best in you or not. If you like who you are around them.
Would you revert to your old ways? Possibly a real concern there. But what I find more relevant is if those ways were really you or if they were you reacting to somebody else.
If the latter, then if that person isn't different (i.e. hasn't changed) then you may very well react the same way.
I doubt it though. You learned too much and take different paths now when faced with similar choices.
As my IC once told me, you have different tools now. You've upgraded
AJ
That really nails it on the head AJ! That makes so much sense and that's exactly one perspective I've been trying to find, but just couldn't until you brought it to light.
WE can be a certain way with other people, but another with someone else. And truly, the basis of relationships is to change together in order to bring out the best.