Here's the link to the last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2143005#Post2143005I knew it was time for a new thread and I was trying to think of an apt title that recognised where Sanderika and I were on this journey. I'm speaking for Sanderika when I say we're both at the stage of feeling quite tired and depleted but we have to give this one last shot. We're both feeling a little jaded by circumstances and yet we know that if there is even a tiny glimmer of hope we can't yet give in. We have to keep the faith. We have no proof, no evidence that this is the right path, that we won't be further hurt or disillusioned and yet we are still slowly and surely placing a small step in front of the other on the road forward. Faith gives us hope and tells us that we can give just a little bit more.
That little more might be a day, a week, a month. Who knows? We both know that today we have faith and today is all we can consider right now.
For me, the goal is to leave the door open for 4 more weeks. I have planned a weekend away for me at that time. It will be a chance to catch up with friends and family but also a chance to be away from home and to reflect on my position. My tank is slowly emptying and I have given H this message.
Thanks to you, my special friends for your ongoing support and direction.
Sanderika, we move forward, keeping the faith!!
Cas,
You summed this up very well. These are words I needed to hear now too.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us all.
GAG
Love your new thread title Cas!!!!
Faith gives us hope and tells us that we can give just a little bit more.
Well said!
(((((Cas))))) my dear friend, thank you
I think this thread name is perfect.
How was the fried rice? It is very positive that H remains in contact with you. If you keep being supportive towards him...you will win his heart. It is wonderful that he has booked a reservation to see D swim in a few weeks. I am very excited for your continuous steps forward. (((((Cas))))) I think if you show an extra effort over the next four weeks, we will see you extending your time table because H is going to continue to move towards you.
I am feeling very glum today. I saw H yesterday, he came to get son late in the afternoon. Son was at a friends so H waited with me. H had never told me what time he would be by to fetch son for the evening so I let son go to a friends for the afternoon. H was not annoyed at all. He came in and took off his boots and sat with me chatting for an hour.
During the chat H appeared aloof. He was not very warm to me. He wanted to know if he has a new pair of boots here and I said yes, they are winter boots. I asked H if he wanted to take them with him, he said no he'd leave them here. He had some mail and went through it and left it as well.
I was thinking on my being a bit more forward with H and felt the urge to hug him. SOOO, I asked H: "Can I hug you?" H said: "If you want to." H turned in towards me, I gave him a really long tender hug and then H pulled away. After a little while longer, I asked H: "Would you like to stay for the night with me when you bring son home?" H said: "We'll see how it goes."
I did not feel good about his answer at all. BUT then, H left his mail on the counter.
I had to go pick up son at friends, I offered to drop him off at the shop to H. The whole ride took 25 minutes. H chose to wait alone at out home for me to return with son. This made me a bit nervous. H has not been alone in our home for a VERY VERY long time. It seemed weird leaving him here alone. I didn't put up a fuss. I left trying to trust H.
H brought son home at 12:15am and just dropped him off. We have not heard from H today. OW is with him, I saw her vehicle at my shop.
I went and had lunch with SIL on H's side today. She and I were always very close. I had kept my distance for about three years. Last week she initiated a meeting. SIL does not think H and I belong together. She does not like what H is doing and neither does her H (H's oldest brother). They do not like OW at all. She feels I am fighting a losing battle and that I deserve better than H. She said he will never change. I told her he has actually changed a lot. I gave her some examples I have witnessed over the past 6 years. She agreed with hesitation. She wants me to be happy and congratulated me on my progress. She feels H is very confused and possibly has deeper emotional issues. She hopes that counseling will help us, she wishes it had come sooner rather than later. I told her sooner would have been a disaster for sure. In the early days H hated me. H can admit a very different, much more loving set of emotions about me today. I told her I was hopeful but doubted it will work out for me/us.
Ladies, H is currently (as I write this) with the OW. I cannot repair my marriage if he will not stop seeing her.
The counseling worries me. H could sabotage the meetings with a very negative attitude leaving the therapist no choice but to advise a divorce is necessary. Do you all feel that H would volunteer for this assistance and pay upwards of $200 per hour to sabotage the meetings for personal gain?
As you all can see I am a bit of a mess. I am powerless to fix this anymore. Counseling will be my last effort.
Sanderika
Hi Sanderika,
Sorry to hear you are feeling glum. In some ways I feel the same. My LL is Quality Time so I would happily forgo fried rice for a coffee and a chat or a movie. Feeling frustrated and sick of it today! Sick of needing to be patient all the time. Life is really too short for this!
I hope that you will see the turn around you are looking for in the shortest time possible!
Hugs,
Cas
Hi ladies,
I am SO right there with you both. Frustrated! Sounds like Rabbit is the only one who is NOT frustrated these days (good for you Rabbit! Very happy for you and thanks for sharing your good news with us. We LOVE to hear it!)
Sanderika I could strangle your H for not taking responsibility for himself and his decisions.........and Cas, you sound strong, but I can just imagine how you must feel.
Cas, thanks for interpreting Rabbit's "nattering" expression. I have NEVER heard that before. That made my day!
I have been re-reading DR and thinking through some aspects of insisting that ow is gone before I venture out of the house with H. There are definitely arguments for and against.
Cas, I've been wanting to ask if you would summarize the arguments for and against insisting that OW is gone before moving forward in your R with H. I'm feeling frustrated that XH doesn't seem to want to end it with GF#2, even though he has acted frustrated with that R when he is with me.
P.S. I've been wanting to tell you Cas how impressed I am with the introduction to your new thread. Very thoughtful and verrrrrrrry niiiiiiiiice!
GAG
GAG - do you mind if I jump in here with the argument for and against the OW being out of the WAS life? Only mo, but I have done a lot of observing over the years.
The "need" for the OW is a part of the MLC in most cases - there are, as you know, other 'types' of affair. There is a lot written on the OW/OP, and I won't summarise it here.
The real question is whether true reconciliation can begin when the spouse still has some sort of need for OW. Or to put it another way, how do they find a path out of the MLC maze? Do we help them and can we help them, and if so in what way?
I suspect that they emerge in different ways. In the case of my h the OW could not be in the picture because at the first sign of it not being easy he always rushed back. For him, I am clear, it has to be over.
The danger of them transferring from OW to wife or exwife is that they haven't fully finished their crisis, and faced themselves. They have woken up enough to realise that the grass isn't greener, and that they were happy, and they want back in. And it works, sometimes. But not always
So [and as I said, this very much mo] I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. In my case OW would have to be gone, but in other cases it seems that the gradual detachment is part of the reconnection process. I don't think this way is without risk, but neither is the 'totally gone', as in those cases it can happen that the WAS simply cannot bring themselves to dig out. They get stuck.
Perhaps it all boils down to whether we can help our spouses in their crisis. In some cases yes, maybe, and in others they have to do it alone or not at all .
Well answered Beatrice.
My mind is blank atm so I can't think of much more to add just now!
H had dinner with D and I last night after he helped D with something for school. He seemed very relaxed and it was an enjoyable meal. However, I have this resounding feeling that this will just drag on and on and I am tired of it all. I feel physically tired atm so perhaps that is influencing my thinking.
Had dinner with D and H last night at his home as I was late from work. Again, it was very comfortable.
S called and H told him I was there for dinner because we were both helping D with her homework.
D told us that my parents were going overseas (again!) and would be away for Christmas. That started a convo about Christmas. This would mean that all my family will be away and would leave just me, D and H here and S in another state. Very general conversation about possibilities about going to S's state. No commitments, just ideas thrown around but when I got home H text me with prices of flights at that time. Thought that was interesting. Is he thinking of going or just doing me a favour of checking the prices?
D has two concerts coming up which would require us to drive her. Arrangements made for us to take her and then go off and have a meal before coming back to collect here.
So all I can say is that H is obviously very comfortable with me but that's all I can say at this stage.
H had to collect D because I had another late night meeting. He prepared a meal for D and one for me.
Nothing else.....
Hope everyone else is going well.
A couple more things.....
an email using my name rather than just hi
a huge amount of back pay child support
a message to ask if he could call me to discuss D
Following along and thinking of you!
(((((Cas)))))
All sounds very positive with H to me.
His comfort and continuous effort towards reconnecting are very meaningful right now. He obviously wants to work at this or he would not be doing so.
I think it's wonderful that he cooks for you after a long day. He is certainly not acting as selfish and withdrawn. His thinking of you speaks volumns about his current mindset.
I venture to say your efforts and stance has outlasted his MLC.
I think he is checking prices for flights for you as well
I have a gut instinct telling me he wants to make plans as a family to go to son's for Christmas.
Continue to give him time. He is making great strides. (((Cas))) you have worked so hard and come so far, don't turn back right now.....please!
My H and I have our 1st 2 hour consultation tomorrow (4/1/11 @ 11:00am) for couples counseling. I located a pro-marriage doctor (Ph D) who has been a couples counselor for 30+ years. He is married with children and grandchildren. I will let all know how it goes. I have prepared a notebook to bring with me to each session. I think H is in for a very rude awakening. While I have done tons of work on me, H has done little to none on himself. Boy Oh Boy, this is going to be scary.
I have had three points of contact with H this week, 1 I initiated to let him know of the appointment and 2 initiated by him: 1 to confirm his schedule was open and the 2nd one to tell me news on a piece of property we had been looking into buying as an investment. Interesting?!?! H also told me to transfer more money out of the company tomorrow, so I will!!!
We are supposed to get a huge spring snowstorm tomorrow, I am hoping that it doesn't get so bad this meeting is canceled.
I have had a very somber week as I prepare for tomorrow. I have hope but am doubtful. H has certainly kept his distance for the most part from me for over a month now. OW is still here.
I hope my investment in counseling is worth the time and money. I still hold fast to what I want. I have been thinking about things to say. Of course we all know it won't go as rehearsed!!
(((Cas))) take care my friend, I think you two are doing wonderfully and it will all work out. The time is right.
Sanderika
Hey Sanderika,
Good luck with the counselling session. Sounds like you're off to a good start with the counsellor's experience. You can be sure that it won't go as you have rehearsed! The big step is H's willingness to go. I'm guessing the counsellor will have something to say about ow. I wish you the best and I will check back in to see how things go.
Last night H called and we chatted about D to start and then a bit about S and some other stuff. In the conversation he mentioned that he had lots to do today (his day off and the day he usually spends with ow) including finding me a new DVD player. It's very definitely comfortable between us and I can see the positives but I guess I am frustrated because ow is still on the scene. I keep thinking that the swimming meet will be the turning point one way or the other.
Off to work
Oh and Sanderika about Christmas.... I think H was thinking he and the kids would be with his family for lunch and I could be with my brother and his family and then the four of us could catch up in the evening as a family. D will not agree with that. She won't go with H to his family without me. Either way the interesting thing is he's thinking of going to another state for Christmas so wouldn't see ow.
Css,
I so wish you all the best and hope it all works out just as you want it to.
(((Hugs)))
Sanderika,
I have been busy with preparations for tomorrow so I don't have much time to post this evening.......However, I am saying a prayer for you that your counseling session will be just as it is supposed to be to lay the foundation for future productive sessions. I've read in some places that initially the M counsellor may make it appear that they are being sensitive to the less open spouse in order to engage that person in therapy. If the person who wants to save the M doesn't understand this, they may feel marginalized a bit. I don't know whether this might happen with you, but I wanted to mention it in case something like that happens. You are a very smart woman, so I'm sure you have prepared very well for tomorrow. I will be thinking about you! Please post when you have a chance afterward.
Thanks for your special "attagirl" today!!!!!
You are not only very wise, but very sly too! As Rabbit would say "Your H is 'dead meat' if that's what you want". It's no wonder you have managed to turn your situation around.
SO sorry to hear about your snowstorm tomorrow! Ughhhh!!!!!! I know just how you feel. It has been a VERY long winter.
Best to you,
GAG
Cas,
I was really excited to hear your new developments. It sounds as though things are progressing steadily.
A couple more things.....an email using my name rather than just hi.........a huge amount of back pay child support
I thought that ^^^^^^^ was huge. I just about jumped up and down when I read about the back child support. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the conversation he mentioned that he had lots to do today (his day off and the day he usually spends with ow) including finding me a new DVD player. It's very definitely comfortable between us and I can see the positives ..........
It sounds as though you're spending lots of time with H. I will catch up with you after the funeral tomorrow.
GAG
Thanks Seeking, good to hear from you! GAG, thanks to for the positives. I am trying to write down all the tiny things just to keep me positive atm. It helps to hear that you see those things as positives, too.
H is on his way here now. He is coming over to set up the DVD. Another AoS but still no moves towards us doing anything more without D.
Cas
H set up the DVD and then stayed for dinner. After dinner he suggested that D stay at his house so I could sleep in instead of getting up early to take D. He brought up further discussions about Christmas but gave no clear responses as to what he will do. Showing uncertainty.
Dolphin,
Things sound very encouraging for you. Congrats! It's March and he's making plans for Christmas?
I see you have been here since '09 and are still hanging in. H obviously doesn't want to move on without you. You are truly keeping the faith.
Hi Punkin,
It has been a very long journey and I'm still here. Many days I ask myself why? H has really treated me badly at times but underneath it all I could see a glimmer of hope, I could recognise that love was still always there. I've hung on to that tiny glimmer.
H and I were very happy for so many years but as business and family demands increased we lost our way and unhappiness set in. No decent communication about our feelings and a life threatening illness sent things into a huge downward spiral.
I want the chance to see if we can work towards a better relationship. Will I get the chance? Who knows but things are the strongest they've been for ages.
Christmas is a long way off!
Cas, from out here you have made even more progress over the last 2 weeks.
things are the strongest they've been for ages.
I like this!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^
Sanderika, what happened in your MC session today?
GAG
So today I had an unexpected visit to the hospital (whenever I go to a doctor they expect the very worst but the hospital felt the call was 'over the top') so I called H to be with D as I knew there would be lots of waiting. He came to our house and did a little job for me and then took D to his house. He rang me twice to see what was happening but didn't show he was overly concerned, perhaps a little detached.
When I was finished I text H to tell him I was on my way and he invited me to have dinner once again. We didn't stay long because D had homework and I was tired after a long day.
Thanks for the affirmation GAG. I can see progress too.
(((((Cas)))))
I am happy that your little adventure to the hospital was not all that serious
I see so many good things happening with your H. His actions are showing care and concern even though he is not using words to express it. Actions Speak Louder Than Words!!!
He is expressing ideas to you that make your current day to day a lot easier. So many positives:
Making meals for you and daughter.
Suggesting he help you so you can sleep in.
Helping daughter with homework.
Driving daughter to obligations.
Calling with concerns for your health and well-being.
Buying and installing the DVD player.
Working on the "around the house to do" list.
This man is thinking about Christmas, WOW!!! It's 8 months away. I've never met a man who was overly concerned for Christmas even when there was 24 hours left to go!!!!!!
I bet you have more....
Your H has been making progress behind the scenes. He is once again making effort and trying to repair the damages. Every time he comes out into the light, he is better at reconnecting and shows more compassion than his previous peek. This time feels different. He is different. He also lingers longer.
Just like GAG, your expectations must remain at NONE. You know this as does she. Do not lose sight of the possibilities in front of you....You have reasons for hope.
I want this for you so very much, you are sooo deserving of love, happiness, trust, respect and forgiveness. Your H is showing you all of these things right now. Your H is experiencing the same reciprocating feelings from you too!!! Commitment is going to be one of the last remaining actions you will see. It is possible that it will happen so slowly that one day it will just be....
(((((Cas))))) my friend, please take care. You are a remarkable and resilient lady with so much to offer. Good things are going to happen for you.
Sanderika
Hello all....
For anyone reading this, I thank you for all your support.
Yesterday at Couples Counseling I had the most difficult time, I cried through most of it. I came home physically exhausted. I came home without any hope. I came home absolutely ill.
Our appointment was at 11:00am (a two hour session), even with the snowstorm we were on time. H had expressed interest in court to try this as a possible solution to resolving our problems. It was apparent from the moment we arrived, H turned cold and disconnected.
Upon our arrival we were greeted by the cutest little chocolate Cocker Spaniel I have ever seen. He was a lovely little dog with excellent manners. His master (Dr. R), we were about to speak raw and frankly with, appeared several minutes later. Dr. R is a warm, soft spoken and kind man. You could see his passion for his profession and he was very direct and he didn't mince words.
I had chosen a male therapist I found in our area. I found a man who is pro-marriage and solution oriented. He has almost 40 years as a couples counselor, is married, a Dad and a Grand-Dad.
H appeared initially annoyed by the sight of the little dog. He grew increasingly uncomfortable by the soft-spoken manner of Dr. R.
First, we were asked what he could do for us and what did we want to gain.
I said I wanted to reconcile our marriage. My commitment to stand for my marriage has been unwaivered now for over 5 years and that it was so very important to me for the three of us.
H asked if he could either help us figure out how to reconcile the marriage OR figure out how to end it. I think H wanted more help with how to end it.
I was asked to speak first about "us". I recounted all of the previous history as honestly as possible going back at least 8 years. I dredged up my role as a wife, mother, business partner and daughter. I cried the whole way through....
When I finished Dr. R asked H is version. H agreed with the exceptions of the timetable and his version of why and when he left the marriage.
H said the two years I claimed I was depressed was more like 6 years. H said he had divorced me long before he left home. H went on to say he felt completely right in pursuing his current OW in a relationship as he considered himself divorced. He felt he is cheating on OW by being with me. Said OW is like his wife and I am his mistress. He went on to say he hates all of it.
H went on to say that he knew years before he left that he was going to leave. H said he waited until OW came into the picture to do so. H went further by telling Dr. R that I, in my depressed state, BETRAYED him as a wife, mother of his child and his business partner. As I listened to this I became very disturbed emotionally. Dr. Ron was especially troubled by his use of the word...BETRAYED. He told H that that was a very harsh and hurtful word to use. H said it was true.
It became painfully clear to me that I do not know this man. It became painfully clear to me that I cannot have any hope to reconcile this marriage due to the inability of H to have any compassion or forgiveness towards me. H is steadfast in his ideas that I BETRAYED him. As you can all imagine, I do not see H's point of view.
After this we tried a little exercise that would bring about honesty in words we would speak to each other. We were told to close our eyes for several minutes and clear our minds of any thoughts that did not pertain to the current (our being in a counseling session and each other). Then we opened our eyes and were told to look into each others (we were sitting face to face as close as we could sit to each other) we looked into each other eyes while Dr. R told us to look into the others eyes and look for emotions. After several minutes of that, we each took as turn asking the other to "Tell Me The Truth". I let H go first, the only words H could tell me after repeated requests was "You are so beautiful". I went second and H kept asking me the same question. I was able to tearfully tell H all of my thoughts and feelings that have been bottled up in my heart for years now. I went further to tell H what I saw in his eyes (kindness, love, a smile and tears of pain). H was unmoved. I was moved beyond words.
Needless to say, Dr. R came to a pretty blunt conclusion. He told H he has 4 options:
1) Keep doing what he was doing. Live in a state where he keeps us both and continues to struggle and juggle the OW relationship and the marriage. He warned H that this was like having one foot on the dock and one in the rowboat, H was going to end up in the water!!!
2) Leave the marriage and fully commit to the relationship H has created with the OW. Means he will end up grieving his marriage and loss of his family. Means hurting me and son. Means having no contact with me, except for matters of son. Means risking he damage his relationship with son possibly permanently. Means compromising his values and ideals of marriage (H had already expressed he had hopes that his marriage would last his lifetime as was common in his family). Means a divorce and division of all he holds dear.
3) Leave the relationship he has created with OW to reconnect to the marriage, his wife and family. Means he is going to grieve the OW. Means he is going to hurt her. Means he will not be able to have any contact whatsoever with her ever again. He told him this would be difficult but was doable if H was committed.
4) Leave us both. Live alone. Have zero contact with her ever again and have minimal contact with me only in regards to matters involving son. This way he could learn to appreciate himself and reconnect to himself and his values and morals. Starting fresh would enable H a chance to rebuild a healthier lifestyle one hopefully with emotional stability and healing for H.
H then asked the same question he started out with. AND...
Dr. R said he could help us rebuild the marriage ONLY if OW was not in the picture. H would have to make that choice on his own without any help. He would be happy to help us then, until then it was hopeless and unrealistic to try.
He said he could help us to divorce amicably and help us learn to co-parent our son.
Dr R had summed us up inside of the two hours and then he spoke to me....
Dr. R told me that I needed to accept my current reality and gracefully let H go. He told me that the marriage was unrepairable as long as H was involved in a relationship with OW and more so because H felt married to the OW and completely detached from me and his family. He told me that I am beautiful and compassionate and loving and filled with remorse and forgiveness and that I needed to stop blaming myself for all the problems. He asked me to let go and allow myself to forgive "ME". He said I have grieved the loss of my marriage long enough. He reminded to think on the old Kenny Rogers song "The Gambler".
ON THE WAY HOME....H and I stopped for lunch. We chatted nicely about this and that. He has decided to think on all that was said at Dr. R's for the weekend. He said he would be in touch with me.
Today he is with son....that is good, I guess. I am alone. I am hurting and sad and in physical pain.
Sanderika
Sanderika: Hugs. This so closely mirros the one counselling session I went to with my now xh.
Your therapist sounds kind and insightful - I went on seeing mine, and he helped me a lot because he had seen my now xh. He understood what was going on and that I wasn't crazy.
Your h is utterly lost to himself, and I think, sadly, that these very damaged men we probably have to let go, after a certain period of time. It was 5 years in my case.
They will either come out of it or not, and there isn't much we can do. We have demonstrated our love and fidelity and if it isn't what they want and need, it is pointless to persist, beyond a certain point.
If this type of MLCer [and I think there are other types] isn't willing to give up OW there is nothing we can do. It hurts initially to close the door but then there is a peace, the like of which I have not known since I started dealing with his MLC. But I hope your h chooses you and commitment.
Oh (((((Beatrice))))),
Thank You.
I am searching for more strength than I have ever known. I am not as tough as one might think.
I have my own therapist outside of Dr. R and I will be making an appointment with her come Monday. I need to gain some prospective as to how to move forward as a single lady in mid- life with a 14 year old son. One who can never rely on another for support or compassion. I feel quite the fool today.
I want to find that "peace" you speak of....I have listened to you tell others it will come and have only thought that it seemed impossible to achieve. I need to work on me. I need to learn a new lesson.
I am spending my weekend reading "Eat, Pray, Love". I bought this book last week in advance thinking I might need an alone activity.
It will be interesting if, when and what H will say when he has had enough "thinking on it" time. I thank you for your wishes that he chooses me and commitment.
H just brought son home and came inside to remind me that he was going to come after him tomorrow too. He then made it a point to tell me that he had to go cause he was meeting a male friend at a local drinking club. I guess no OW this weekend at all....interesting, huh? I wished him a good time and away he went. All about himself and irresponsibility. I have a nice supper in the oven for son and I, when son gets out of the shower we will have a nice, quiet Saturday evening.
Sanderika
Sanderika. So many emotions went through me as I read what you wrote.
In some ways it mirrors the joint counselling sessions ( 3) that I had with my H.
Except at the end she said, " Your marriage is over, I wish I could take the pain away, things will be better in 18 months."
Maybe I should have listened to her then and started divorce proceedings. I don't know.
I am sorry you hurt Sandrika, I'm glad you found a kind man as your counselor to help you through this. I am so sad for you.
Sanderika,
(((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))). I am sending prayers for you today. I am VERY sorry that you are having such a difficult day.
I need more time to digest what you've written but something jumped out at me in your post and I wanted to point it out.
He felt he is cheating on OW by being with me. Said OW is like his wife and I am his mistress.
In the context of what H said in court (that he did not think your M is irretrievably broken), your H's comment above makes me think he knows that if he D's you, you will be out of his life for good and he has not been willing to take that chance thus far.
H went further by telling Dr. R that I, in my depressed state, BETRAYED him as a wife, mother of his child and his business partner.........Dr. Ron was especially troubled by his use of the word...BETRAYED. He told H that that was a very harsh and hurtful word to use. H said it was true.
It is unbelievable that your H is not able to take responsibility for any of his role in all of this. I'm glad that Dr. Ron called him on it. It sounds very much like H is projecting his feelings about his mother's betrayal onto you. H has been an adult during his M with you and as such was certainly capable of telling you this at the time that he was entertaining these thoughts. It's my turn to be really angry with your H now!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand what you mean about grieving that you feel you do not "know" this man. I really wonder what it would take for someone who is as resistant to self-examination as your H is to gain insight about the role he played in all of this????
It's interesting that your H told you how beautiful you are in the session. If he could only see how beautiful you are inside as well..............
((((((((Sanderika)))))))))))))
GAG
If he could only see how beautiful you are inside as well..............
Amen to that!
(((((((((((Sanderika)))))))))))
Sanderika - I am not peaceful all the time!! I know I have said this before but I found the book - The Journey from Abandonment to Healing - a hugely helpful thing to read. [Also loved 'Eat, love pray' although liked the last bit the least.]
It is actually fun being a single lady. I look at myself each day, and realise I have respect and liking for who I am. I can truthfully say that I almost certainly would not have my h back now. But even 6 months ago I would not have said that.
You are still very much in love with your h, and he knows it. My xh told me that my love for him had irretrievably damaged his chances of a long term relationship with OW [incredible how it is all our fault!] He is still involved with her to some extent, I believe, although I have no contact of any kind with him.
Actually saying goodbye and closing the door is OK. Very painful, but necessary in some cases. It was in mine because I could not move forward into being the person I need to become, while I was hoping for a reconciliation.
It is very very hard, no question. Be gentle with yourself, and don't 'force' it. Your h is confused and damged, making poor choices, and only he can fix himself. Any pressure probably makes things worse. He wants the pain to stop, and it won't until he sorts himself out, but that takes real effort and commitment.
I do know a number of people who have pieced their marriages back. Privately some of them tell me it was very hard, and at times they questioned if it was really worth the effort. They are damged goods if they ever decide to return. And you may feel you deserve better. But it is entirely your decision, and I would support anyone in any decision that they took sincerely and believed it to be right.
I am thinking of you and sending you hugs Sanderika. My greatest wish for you is personal peace and joy in the blessings of your life.
Hugs,
Cas
(((Sanderika)))
I echo what Cas has said.
(((Hugs))) Ladies,
Scylla, GAG, CW, Beatrice, Cas & Seeking...THANK YOU ALL
In reality I am hoping that H will want to attempt further Couples Counseling with me for the reasons mentioned.
I want to call him to the carpet further on the use of the word BETRAYED. Correct me if I am all out of whack and warped on this BUT....BETRAYED....OMG, what about H?
BETRAYED is a word I would have used to describe him when he left son and I, when we both needed him the most for support. (Me for depression and son for a new diagnosis of Asperger's)
BETRAYED is a word I would have used to describe H when he took up with OW breaking our covenant marriage.
BETRAYED is a word I would have used to described H when he and his OW ousted me from my own company three years ago because OW wanted my job.
BETRAYED is a word I would have used to describe H's abandonment and neglect he forced upon my son countless times in favor of his own selfishness and egotistical fulfillment as he pursued the OW.
HE DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE IN LIFE.....
I want to further meet him again in therapy to discuss his actual role in the demise of the marriage. H was commonly staying out all night which contributed painfully towards my depression (I felt unloved and unappreciated). After his cancer and remission H played the role of "It's my life...I'm gonna do exactly what I want". I went through hell for years after. I nursed him during that two years with cancer. I never betrayed him.
This was also a factor which contributed to his MLC down the road.
Dr. R did use the words MLC towards H once. When he mentioned that H could Live Alone, he said that H could go off into the sunset and have his MLC.
I am dumbfounded at the pure appearance of selfish and childish behaviors. I could never imagine being a person who would want to be like that.
The two hours we met certainly was not enough time to delve into all of the troubles. I am thinking now that the troubles are more H's than mine.
I have decided that should H choose not to engage therapy further H will be ordered to put an offer in writing and my role as his wife/friend will cease. I cannot accept the harsh words and demeanor H has used against me. It only proves his pathetic state. It will be very unhealthy for me and son to be in his presence.
My son noted to me yesterday that he went into H's fridge for water yesterday and H's fridge was absolutely empty. Son said: "Mom there wasn't anything in there". Just thought it interesting.
Thanks and hugs ladies, I will keep you all posted.
Sanderika
Sandrika,
Although my H has never use the word betrayed to me, I know that is what he feels about my efforts to get him to seek help for his PTSD and alcohol abuse. I let the cat out of the bag. Plus the added benefit of getting to be mad at me and not face the guilt of his own actions.
You are right on every point, BETRAYED is not a word your H should use to you. Just try to remember, he's seeking every avenue he can to avoid facing his own guilt. ((HUGS))
Sanderika
I always read along to see how you are doing but I am not sure if I have ever posted to you.
I find your H's use of the word BETRAYED very interesting. It is an emotionally laden word. Any one who feels betrayed feels very damaged, hurt and bereft at a deep emotional level. Did he feel betrayed because he felt that in your depressed state you could not meet the needs he thought you should as a wife, mother and business partner? Is this something he has not forgiven you for? He needs to address that feeling and let go. Did he go into anymore details about this? Does he see that you felt BETRAYED but have forgiven him? Is he using the word BETRAYED as a way of not facing his guilt or did he geniuinely feel BETRAYED no matter how misguided that feeling might appear?
You don't have to respond as I know that it is extremely painful for you. These are just things which occured to me as I read your post.
Hello Punkin, thank you with (((hugs))),
H has an inability right now to claim any blame. I can remember wondering before we went to the counseling IF H would attempt to sabotage the meeting with blame towards me. If he could play the roll of martyr he would be told professionally that the marriage should end. Instead H was actually blamed for having an OW and the meeting more seemed to focus on H's current choice and actions than on me. I know H appeared egotistical, cocky and selfish, this Dr. knew exactly who H was even if H thought he was filling the Dr. with "the real truth". This man has 40 years of experience dealing with troubled people and couples...I think he can read people pretty well by now.
It is truly amazing the journey H has traveled without really ever moving forward or backward. I have seen and heard H profess his faults, yet in this meeting I was the Betrayer. In this meeting H was the victim.
To this day in all my 32 years with my H I have never stepped out on him. If getting depressed was the worst thing I dished out....think about it.....whew!!!
Punkin, Thanks so much!
Sooo.....
My H just picked up son for the day. It seems kind of late giving the project at hand, BUT Oh Well!!!
H called first and seemed all like "HI!, How are you today?" I just said "fine". I told him son would be ready in 10 minutes.
H came right into the kitchen, I was finishing up cooking off a batch of blueberry pancakes, there was a plateful sitting front and center.....they looked mighty inviting, if I must say so myself!!! Son and I heard H's stomach growl, son said "you sound hungry" H said "no, I ate earlier". I had no intentions of offering him breakfast, this is a huge 180 for me. I did intend for H to see what he is going to walk away from!!!!!!!!
Another interesting thing to note: H was obviously wicked nervous. He rambled incessantly and spoke a mile a minute about some trees at the garage. Never once looked away from a piece of furniture across the room. He did make real nice of our dog, which was good for the dog. Then he and son left.
Thanks everyone!!!
Sanderika
Hello Kara,
I will be happy to answer your questions. I am in hopes that my story will be of great help to other couples who are facing this most traumatic ordeal.
H claims I BETRAYED him for these reasons, BTW, I admit all of this is true:
As a Wife: When I was depressed, I was of no help to anyone and I was mean. I would be cross and quick with people 24/7. I took out most of my frustrations on H. H did try to help me. I turned him down. I slept a lot. I was sleeping if I was not at work. My family and home life suffered a great deal. I also was unable to satisfy H sexually, I had shut down on me and H and son, I hated everyone and everything. I was not functioning at all. I did not clean my home or do laundry or cook meals or shower. It was a hideous time in my life.
As a Business Partner: I was actually able to function very well on the job and I was a perfectionist. My work was accurate and complete. I manned the office alone everyday with 12 employees. I worked a very long day....most days were 10-14 hours, I went home when my desk/work was completed. I could not be nice though, My tone on the phone was not nice. I was quick with people and when it was H on the phone, I would hang up whether H was finished or not. I do remember having two customers that I butt heads with...one H does not work for any longer and one I am not sure. H's business has never suffered in volume or dollars, so I am not sure what he really means. I think it was how I treated him mostly not the customers. OW wanted in so badly she would have had me knocked off if H had not agreed with her to oust me. That was my career and I am resentful. I put 25 years of sweat equity into that company. I had also turned myself around and was quite well when he did oust me. I had been doing great for 2.5 years. I have been virtually unemployed since. The job market in Maine is very poor.
I draw the line with son.
As the Mother of his child: I was raising son alone for the most part due to H's work schedule and continuous traveling. I did not know until son was 8 that he was an Asperger's Child. I did not understand son. I found parenting very difficult before I understood how son thinks. H blames me for son's difficulties. He is in denial that son has a diagnosed social disorder. I do not accept any blame for son. I have been son's primary supporter and advocate. It has been 6 long years, son is doing really well now. H acknowledges that my changes and therapy for son has done him wonders.
According to one of H's best friends, H is not forgiving me for any of this. He says H refers from time to time that I was mean to him and that I F'd up our son. Pretty Strong, Huh! H is hanging on to pain and hurt he says I caused him.
H does see that I have forgiven him. I have made it perfectly clear in actions and words. In fact I told H that everyday when I get out of bed I say: "I forgive H for what he is going to do today." I am then able to move forward without any real bother towards what H has dished out. I do hurt though, I try and keep it at bay, some days are tougher than others. As long as I had hope I could manage. I have no hope now and I somehow feel different.
I am heading for a place where I don't give a rats a$$ anymore what H thinks or does (he's unknown to me right now). Those words hurt that bad. I am not the person I was 5.5 years ago. I am well, I am now the girl H fell in love with (he admitted this in counseling) he does feel the emotion he felt (BETRAYED) is outweighing anything I do now and genuinely admitted this is still how he feels and probably cannot let go of it. I deserve forgiveness and H is unable to get to this place, I don't have any more time for this.
I used to think H was a loving, reasonable and compassionate man. I do not see that same man. H's tunnel vision make me wonder if he ever loved me and my son. He has certainly proven he can't handle thick and thin, in sickness and in health, yada yada yada.....
Sanderika
Sanderika, this is the first time I have ever recognised your anger and I must say I think this is a healthy thing. I agree with what Kara has written. H has taken on the victim's role, filled with justification for his actions. This is not a man ready to move to a 'give and take' arrangement required in any healthy relationship.
Of course, you hurt. This is all very painful. Be loving, caring and compassionate towards the most important person in this....you. You deserve the peace and joy I mentioned in my last post. Work towards this goal now. You are the most important person at this moment!
warm hugs,
Cas
Update from Cas:
H worked until 7.30 pm last night. We had no contact since dinner the night before. He phoned D and reminded her of an interview on tv. That must have been as he left work. About an hour later he text me to ask after D (She has been overwhelmed with her workload lately). I replied that she was fine and was obviously feeling good as she had just finished a major assessment task. His next text was How was your day?. That was my big breakthrough for Sunday!!
Two other little points from last week: 1. H let me use his computer in his office to search the library database while he went away to get on with cooking dinner. 2. H left D and I in his house while he went to the store the other night. I even offered to go for him. These are just little steps but think they show he is developing trust.
All positives! Yeah!
I'm sorry I can't acknowledge this properly but I thought it was a very powerful reminder for not only those who are DBing but anyone who is patiently attempting to promote change.
"Do you know what happens after you plant the seed of a Chinese Bamboo Tree? Nothing. That's right. Absolutely nothing. For 4 years after planting the seed of this tree you get no satisfaction other than a tiny shoot coming out of a bulb. Must be something wrong, right? A still birth or stunted growth. A bad
seed maybe. If you didn't know about the growth patterns for this tree, you'd think that all your efforts to
plant and cultivate were useless. But, in fact, what's happening all the time is that underneath the ground there's a massive root structure that's forming. You can't see it, but it's there and it's HUGE. Then, in the 5th year, the Chinese Bamboo Tree grows and grows and grows, sometimes up to EIGHTY FEET tall!
Marriages sometimes grow like Chinese Bamboo Trees. You try and try doing kindnesses, giving gifts, being gentle, sharing a joke, but sometimes it takes months, even years before you SEE the growth. But all the while you're making deposits into a secret account that all of a sudden (that's the way it seems, but, in fact, my point is that it's not all of sudden) begins paying dividends.
It takes maturity to be patient. And it takes maturity to be willing to give your spouse the time they need to grow and to see that time as an opportunity for you to grow too.
There's a women who has been asking her husband to join her at the dinner table for SIX MONTHS. And for 6 months he's been rejecting her as he takes his dinner into the family room to eat in front of the TV. He was punishing her. He was angry. For 6 months she took the rejection. Everyday for 6 months she asked him to come to dinner and everyday he said "No." One day, unannounced, and for no apparent reason, he said to her while she was fixing dinner in the kitchen, "Can I join you at the table tonight?"
"Yes," she said, and turned away to wipe her tears. Did she deserve 6 months of the silent treatment?
No one does no matter what the reason. But don't let anyone tell you to give up. It's NEVER too late. Things change. People change."
I also think that your h is doing transference of his feelings onto you. Because at some leve he knows he is the betrayer, he is transferring his negative feelings to you.
As I think I have posted, my h blamed me for the failure of his r with OW, because I didn't stop loving him, and she found this too threatening. They still have a relationship but apparently it isn't the same! [Or wasn't when we last spoke 9 months ago]
They love to play the martyr to justify their horrible behaviour.
What I find worrying is their total failure to emotionally change and develop. Like you, my xh has been in full MLC for almost 6 years [with what I now see were clear signs for another 2-3 years]. I know MLC is said to take a long time but some of them seem to get very stuck
And my positive for last night.... H initiated a skype convo, again using d as the lead in but the next question was "How did the shopping go? Did you buy the new outfit?" (so he was listening when I told him that earlier)
And no, I didn't get the new outfit. Why is it when you want to splurge you really can't find anything you like?
Cas,
YEAH!!!!!!!!! Your H continues to be attentive.
Keep updating us please. It is SO good to hear good news. Even if H makes little wobbles or mini-steps backward he has made HUGE progress forward in the last 4 weeks.
Keep reminding him of the woman/girl he fell in love with.
GAG
Thanks GAG. It seems so insignificant and silly to post such trivia but I know that these tiny little steps add up along the way. I love it when others can see and acknowledge the positives, too. It sure is a slow process!!
Today I sent H an email and asked him if he could collect D Friday as I have been invited to dinner with a friend. He replied straight away to say he could help out. YAY! So looking forward to dinner and catching up with my gf who I haven't seen since my birthday.
Will H make contact tonight? I'm thinking that if he hasn't sent me a message by 9:00pm I will message him. I want him to see that I am happy to initiate conversation, too and that I won't leave him to do all the work. (Surely, he can't ask after D yet again!!!)
Hi Ladies,
I have been thinking about you all and wanted to tell you so.
I hope you and your families are getting along fine.
I have come here everyday and read your posts and have decided that I have nothing to add right now that can be considered useful.
I have not had anything remotely hopeful happen here.
I have had no real contact with H in two weeks. Son, on the other hand, spent the entire last two weekends with his father. Something of great interest to me is that while son was with H at our shop during both weekends OW was there too on the Sundays. Son has never met OW. I find it of huge interest that now H is putting them in the same proximity to one another. I can tell you all that it does not sit well with me, I am not going to raise a stink though, it is now out of my control. Due to their activities, we did have minimal contact. I will not contact him at all and will not bring up making another counseling appointment.
I have decided that I need to let go of H completely as he is unable to forgive me for my depression which happened over 7 years ago now. He is holding a grudge and blames me for everything that happened. He is unwilling to try and seems more like this is revenge against me. I have had enough. I do not deserve such hateful, hurtful treatment.
I am going to stop working at reconciling the marriage. It now seems such a moot point. I am not going to call it back into court just yet. I need to heal from the words spoken to me at the counseling session, I am quite tearful and fragile and I need to regain some strength to move on. I am doing just ok with working on me, I have not really had a good day in two weeks now. I am not really able to see past the hurtful words for some reason.
My H is not the person I knew or even close to the one I thought could still resurface. He is someone I now feel very sorry for. I wish he could see the forest through the trees. He needs to do the work on himself to be worthy once again, unfortunately he isn't willing and it's because he does not accept any responsibility. He wants to stay stuck blaming me. He can keep right on keeping on...I will not be his punching bag any longer.
It seems strange to say but I am beginning to
think ALL men as shallow, selfish, greedy and needy. I don't have the desire for such nonsense nor another relationship. I put an immeasurable amount of work into saving this one and I have nothing left to give. I am going to save what's left of my heart for my son and myself and my friends.
I am looking for something that I can believe in once again. With time I will find a good fit for me. I have decided to lay my entire life at God's feet and simply....Let Go and Let God.
I wish every one of you the best from my heart with warm (((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
Sanderika,
I have been thinking about you and wondering how you were. I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about your current situation. I can understand in a very small way how you must be feeling now. You DB'ed with all of your heart, soul, and mind. You loved your H many times over what should have made up for the emotional distance that occurred during your depression. I really can't comprehend what prevents some MLCers from accepting that life has ups and downs and that we LBSs are human and imperfect, just as they are. Clearly, your H is very drawn to you, as confirmed by what he said during your MC session.
Sanderika, you are an incredibly generous and loving person. You have helped many of us here immeasurably. I pray that you turn that love on yourself right now. Please love yourself and be gentle with yourself. Accept love and kindness from others and from the universe.
I have decided that I need to let go of H completely as he is unable to forgive me for my depression which happened over 7 years ago now...........I do not deserve such hateful, hurtful treatment.
I agree with you on this. Only you can decide when enough is enough. You have done many times more than the majority of DB'ers are able to do. I am sorry, but at the same time glad to hear the anger in your words. That will give you strength to do what you need to do right now.............You can deal with the other feelings that will come in the future when they come............Right now I think it will be best to live each day as it comes.
It seems strange to say but I am beginning to
think ALL men as shallow, selfish, greedy and needy. I don't have the desire for such nonsense nor another relationship. I put an immeasurable amount of work into saving this one and I have nothing left to give. I am going to save what's left of my heart for my son and myself and my friends.
I'm glad you are able to write your thoughts here. Please continue to do so. Those thoughts can't hold you captive if you let them out.
I am looking for something that I can believe in once again. With time I will find a good fit for me. I have decided to lay my entire life at God's feet and simply....Let Go and Let God.
I think that this is the best thing for you to do right now. Who knows what God has in store for you in the future? You will certainly reap in kind for the generous love and kindness you have sown.
My thoughts and prayers are with you my friend. I saw on the alt that Cas is out of town for the week. I'm sure she will post to you the next time that she is able to get online.
((((((((((Sanderika)))))))))))))
GAG
Thank You GAG,
Your kindness and friendship means the world to me.
I would like to get on the alt with you all but am unsure how to do it with anonymity, perhaps you can give me some pointers.
I have been looking for an update in your world and have not seen one since your last TT match. I hope you are doing well.
(((((Your Friend Too)))))
Sanderika
Sanderika,
We would LOVE to see you in the alt!!!! Many of us have chosen names in the alt that are very similar to our names here. If you create an account with your nome de plume and then ask to be a friend of MWD we should be able to find you. Let us know when you do that so we can look for you, OK? I think of going into the alt as kind of like entering the afterlife. You go in not knowing what to expect, and then friendly people find you and tell you how to find others. Cadet was the person who first found me and I was able to find others after that.
I DO need to post an update. I am talking with Jody on Wednesday to discuss what has happened since X-MIL's funeral. I have gone to two movies with XH and played TT twice as well. I sense a change in XH's attitude, but am trying to have no expectations. I sense that X-SIL is trying to encourage XH and me to reconnect. A week ago I prayed for direction. I think prayer is very cathartic and from a medical perspective I think prayer is very healing. I feel as though I have been stretched to my limit. XH's financial advisor invited me to church with him and his W. I went. The sermon was about how when we are in the 25th mile of a marathon, we need to ask for God's help to finish the race. Since my prayer last week, I have received several "signs" (unusual occurrences) that all seemed to indicate I should continue to DB XH.........Hopefully I can post in the next 1-2 days.
Sanderika, we are thinking about you. Please let us know when you make your account in the alt. We will watch for you.
(((((((((Hugs))))))))))))
GAG
Sorry to be ignorant, but what is the alt??
Hi Beatrice....
Facebook is the alt.
I think it would be a better place for me now.
Sanderika
Thanks - I don't do Facebook as my two younger sons are on it, and they said they would find it a bit creepy . . . . . They are so reasonable in most ways that I am fine with this.
Hi Beatrice,
I actually have a Facebook in my real name. I think for DB and friending to MWD they all use an assumed name that is similar to our names on this board. They all probably have two accounts.
I would not want anyone to know about my DB facebook account. I would not want H or son or family to figure it out. Maybe you could set up a secret one just for this purpose too(?) That is what I am working on doing.
I am feeling that DB is not for me anymore, I do want to maintain the friendships I have formed because of this though.
I feel like I will most likely lurk here a while longer and then simply fade away....DB does not feel right anymore, I have nothing left in my marriage to hope for.
I am working on a name that will work aside from my real account.
Just a thought for you, you have also made many friends and have given so much valuable support in your posts. You would be a welcomed member of the group for sure.
Sanderika
Sanderika,
Yes, you are correct in what you described about FB. Beatrice, you don't even need to post a photo of yourself.
Please let us know when to start looking for you all.
GAG
Sanderika and GAG, thank you for this suggestion, and support, and I will look into this. I was absent from the boards for a long time [more than two years] and came back with a new name, partly because I suspected that my h knew who I was in my old persona.
I found it helpful to be here while I was going through the divorce process, and I still find the journey that others are taking interesting.
I am setting up a new business at present, and also starting a blog [not about MLC!] so it would be good to tell you all about it on the alt.
Back from my trip and going away again Thurs so very busy at the moment.
Just wanted to say hello Sanderika and to tell you I have been thinking of you and to confirm GAG's suggestion to you. Btw you can have two FB accounts.
Beatrice, you can have a FB account without it intruding on your sons. You keep it private and don't add them. They can't see what you've posted and if they have private accounts you can't see what they've posted either.
Hi Cas,
It would be fun to catch up with you and here what's been happening. I think about you almost everyday and hope you are getting along very well.
I trust D had a wonderful swim meet, and your week away with her was equally wonderful.
My son is on the High School Track and Field Team so I have been spending afternoons cheering him on. It will continue to be busy for me now until mid June.
I have created a FB account. I have contacted GAG. You will notice my name for sure. I hope you find me....
(((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
I haven't posted in a while but thought I would share my observations of late.
My H has been back in contact since the end of Feb when he invited D and I to dinner to celebrate my birthday. Since then AoS have been very evident and he has been going with D and me to run errands etc and cooking for me if D is out. For the most part it has been warm and friendly and he has been very reliable (if he says he will, he will).
I can detect a change in him. Previously he would say, "If I have time" or "I'm busy" or "I'll see how I go". Now it's just yes or no. He's much warmer and caring.
He has shared a number of conversations about his mistakes, told me how sorry he is for the hurt to everyone and told me how this whole affair has been full of highs and lows for me, him and ow.
He has reconnected with my mother over a few days while watching D's sport.
I started to wonder about ow.... my D tells me the photos of her in his bedroom are gone but then he tells me they are still together but it probably won't last. He says it's complicated. I know he is still seeing her although he is making plans to spend time with his extended family and doing other things without her.
The ongoing pattern is that when he gets too close there'll be a small issue that H blows out of proportion and then blames me. I can see it unfolding as it happens and try as I might it results in him saying go away, leave me alone and blaming me in some way. It creates space for him. A day or so later he is fine and the AoS are back and he is warm and friendly again.
I'm feeling frustrated after the last blowup and the knowledge that he is with ow. I am tired and frustrated but on the other hand I am trying to 'hang in there' thinking ow could be on her way out or is she?? H is showing all signs of confusion here and lately I feel it's playing with my head and I'm giving it all too much attention.
I don't know if I should just throw out an ultimatum, go with the flow or go dark. I'm looking for some wisdom cos I just don't seem to have any at this point in time.
In the meantime H has called by to give something to D. He didn't come in but told me he'd see me for coffee later today and he'd take me to catch my 5am flight. The coffee arrangement and my email re the flight were both prior to yesterday's shutdown.
I'm so unsure of the path I am taking......
Dolphin you can't put a timeline on God's work to be done. What you can do though is spend your time working on making you the best person you can. Don't waste your precious time wondering thinking what is/is not happening with your h. Live for you and you only.
If it's God's will your marriage will be restored.
I hear what you are saying Glam and I really appreciate your feedback. H says he is confused. He says he enjoys my company. He acknowledges that he needs to sort himself out. What he says and does are another matter of course. I see that this leaves me with two choices.....say goodbye and get on with living or keep seeing each other as 'friends' (and I don't need a 'friend') and get on with living.
Dolphin, this is based on observation, as sadly I have never had the chance to reconnect with my xh. Perhaps I never created the 'right' environment, who knows? Anyway, I think some marriages do reconnect fully, but I also think a fair few MLCers come back before they have resolved their issues, and then 'run' again at some point.
I don't think ultimatums work with MLCers, and I also think as long as OW is in the picture your h is still in MLC to some extent. What he is doing is hurtful to you, by remaining with her, and until he sees that for himself, and grows up a bit [or a lot!] is he really someone you want to be with?
In your shoes I think I would just be a whole lot less available to him. No need to say goodbye, and no need to go on seeing him as friends on his timetable . Occasional friendly contact would be enough to keep the door open. Almost all the work has to come from him.
And you can leave it to the man upstairs, but remember that He gave us freewill.
Anyway it is good that you can be pleasant and friendly! Unwavering hostility is very wearying.
Hi Beatrice,
Thanks for your feedback.
We had dinner tonight.....as friends and I felt really uncomfortable because I knew that ow had been there. It was a real awakening for me. It suddenly hit me that I don't want it to be like this.
We had an incredibly frank conversation about him and what he went through with the MLC and he listened to my thoughts and agreed to much of what I said and made additional comments. He was really thoughtful about it all....I've never seen him like this before.
He acknowledged that he was not happy in his current situation and that he was the only one that could change that.He also acknowledged that what he really wanted was right there all along but at the time he thought he could find that happiness with someone else.
When I left we hugged really tightly and he apologised once again for all he's put me through. Changes are definitely occurring but I can't leave myself in this vulnerable position. I need more than to be an occasional 'friend' and when I get anxious I don't think I show myself in my best light either.
Hi Cas,
My thoughts are that he is very confused, which still indicates MLC for sure. I DO believe he is nearing the end though.
He is obviously recognizing your support of him on many counts and is drawn to you for many reasons. I DO believe he is currently leaning towards home. How much longer will that take? We can't say.
One never offers an ultimatum to a MLCer. Sooo...please DO NOT do that.
What is happening in your situation is all positive to me.
One thing standing out to me is he is beginning to feel really bad about the pain he has caused to others because of his choices and actions. I particularly think he is feeling the worst about what this has done to you.
He isn't all stuffed up anymore...Your H is talking about himself and his deepest thoughts and feelings...this is really huge. He feels safe with you now to disclose this, my thoughts are he is absolutely comfortable with you, this is really good for him that you are able to listen and not get angry and defensive.
I am wondering:
If this awakening is going to be healing for you both and a reconcilement will follow...Will he be humble and be able to admit fault?
OR
Will it have the opposite affect where he will decide he can't return because of the destruction he has created...Will guilt, shame and fear continue to hold him tight?
I believe if you maintain your current level of support and offer up unconditional feelings towards him he will continue to be drawn back to you and your new relationship which is being reconstructed on the basis of a deep friendship and YES, undying love.
I once read that they have to be convinced 100% that it is safe to return (and then add more convincing for good measure on their part...this is MLC after all) before they make a permanent move of letting go of the OW/OP from their lives.
A big factor in the convincing is that you will maintain the "new" you and that life will not return to what it was when they left. We all know what life was like when they left!!
Another worry is that they do not want to be reminded of the "affair time and the OP" If they think for one minute that will be thrown in their face at every wrong turn, forget it...they will not even entertain the thought of a return.
Cas, your like the rest of us, impatient and wanting more of them...NOW!!
IMO, what you need to do is this....
Maintain your current level of kindness with him. You have been the person he has/is being drawn to now for a very long time...years. If you offer up ultimatums and shut him out until he decides what he wants, you will prove to him that nothing has changed (he'll think this way)...when in reality a great deal has changed.
I think about us when I say this. Here it's H who apparently was hurt by me...It's up to me to do the work to change things (which I have) and to maintain those changes, not to blow up the pretty balloons only burst them right before their eyes...Do you get my point? I hope so. It's all about their new found expectations and a place where they can feel accepted and comfortable again...
I know for a fact your H is not a happy man. He does not want to be "the bad guy" to anyone. This is a huge worry on his mind. He does not want to hurt anyone. Mine has expressed the very same.
They have huge regrets about two things...
Getting involved with another woman while still being married to us and in reality never wanting a divorce, wanting things to change in their marriages instead because they do love us and do not want to hurt us/families.
AND, not divorcing us right from the git go back when they were running so fast they were in flames and they hated us and their responsibilities and were positive the grass was greener on the other side of the fence, this way they didn't have to hurt her.
To me this is the confusion they face in simple terms. They wish the answer would just drop out of the sky. They wish they were not having to make a choice. I sometimes wonder what they would do if one of us, including the OW would make the choice for them.
I truly want mine to man-up and face it and make it, right or wrong it is his mess to fix either way he chooses.
(((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
Oh yes, very confused. He acknowledges that Sanderika. He knows he is unhappy but he doesn't know what to do to make it better. He has reconnected with ow once again. He knows that this path didn't bring him happiness; he articulated that but it's still the path he has chosen. Perhaps it's easier? Perhaps she is just filling the void until he can determine what the real action should be? Who knows? This is much bigger than I am!
I love him and you know, I can feel the love and care he has for me but he knows and I know that it's not enough for now. He's too scared to drop ow and fully commit to me for whatever reasons... they may be revealed as time goes on.
I can feel the pain he is experiencing and this has been a huge lesson for me; a lesson in love. I can sit beside him in his pain but I can't do this part of the journey for him. He has to sort it out for himself. he knows I am there but as a loving friend not as a sometimes partner. I have to let go and trust that this will all come to a happy and peaceful solution. He is not the partner I need atm. He certainly is someone I love but not someone I can build a future with at this stage. Ow needs to be well gone, he needs to indicate that he wants to work on things wholeheartedly and be committed to loving and growing together as aprt of a family.
Nothing much further to report. H and ow still together. H still making fairly regular contact. I am trying to monitor my responses to keep the pressure off. He obviously cares and we're in the friendship zone but that's all.
I have been thinking about your situation, and the following thought occurred to me - emotionally are you at risk? That is, could your h hurt you by his actions or inactions, or are you fully detached?
I suspect we cannot reconnect successfully with our spouses until we are fully detached from whatever they do. Any pressure is a sign to us, and to them that we want this to happen. Hence if it doesn't there will be, at best, disappointment, and probably more heartache.
It sounds paradoxical that we probably can't have really have a successful relationship with our WAS until we do not mind, on one level, whether we have it or not.
Perhaps that is what it means when it says we get to choose.
Anyway, just a thought
Hi Beatrice,
I think last Feb I was detached and that's when H invited me to dinner. I have been more attached since then and yes, at risk of being hurt. However, I have been discussing this with my therapist and she has provided me with some very insightful comments regarding MLC and my H.
If I consider my position now compared to this time last year we have made significant progress and H is delving into the mess of the past years significantly. His r with ow continues to be a once a week catch up and he has broken off with her several times. He is moving forward in reconnecting with my family as well. I have decided in consultation with my therapist that I can continue this for 90 days.
Perhaps I can't reconnect without that detachment and that course of action is valid but at the moment H is confiding in me and has developed greater trust in me and I want to keep standing by him for now (as a confidante). While my illness was incredibly challenging I cannot overlook the impact it had on him and the significant care he gave me when I most needed it. Not sure this makes sense but in my head it does for now.
Thanks once again for your feedback Beatrice.
No, of course it makes sense - it is simply that I think emotionally we have to be in a place where they cannot hurt us for the reconciliation to be effective: perhaps another way of putting it is that in one way they have to want it more than we do, without making themselves vulnerable to us.
My therapist feels that most MLCers - that is people who have major life transition issues, feel deeply inadequate, particularly in relation to their careers and to us. They may be doing fine as the world sees it, but not as they do. That is why OW/OP is always so needy.
Illness in us seems to send them one of two ways - they see us as needing them and it draws them back, OR we look vulnerable and might abandon them [even if they have left us] and this sends them deeper into crisis. The boards are full of people like me where major illness scared the WAS into running harder than ever. Perhaps it is the point in their crisis that we become ill . . don't know.
I just didn't want your hard won equilibrium destablised: only when we are through it do we see how hard won it is!
Beatrice,
I understand what you are saying. I do have a question though. Why is it that we are told to act as if (until we get there for real) we are competent and capable to the MLCer?
My H even referred to me "maintaining my image" in a negative way. It was like he was expecting me to curl up in the fetal position after he left (I did for a bit)and not make it without him. He seemed PO that that didn't happen.
Sorry for the hi-jack Cas.
Seeking, I am always so happy to have hi-jacks especially hen it involves meaningful perspectives for us to consider. Thanks!!
In answer to Beatrice, I am tired and I can feel my reattachment over the past month but on the other hand I also feel incredibly strong because I know I am. I have the capacity to care for H and still look out for me atm. H most definitely feels, as you say, most inadequate and yes ow is probably very needy. H shouldn't feel as he does, but I can only support him. He needs to continue to do the work himself. OW is his crutch and this is the way I am trying to view her atm. He needs her but it seems he needs me more if that makes sense. Time will tell!!
Hi Ladies,
It is a noticeable pattern of our MLC WAH for sure.
I have noticed that when I become aloof and detached, H comes back around. The MLC he suffers from will bring him back around as he does not want me to get too far away from his grasp.
He constantly seeks my approval and friendship.
Then, when he "knows" I am still here "for him"...POOF...he runs off again.
I guess I need to understand the dynamics of all of this.
I have believed for a long time now that our Hs do not trust the new and detached us. They think it is just an act to rope them back in. Thus the reluctance to come home. Instead they are willing to continue to thwart all the blame on us and remain stuck.
They wait & watch and wait & watch for a very long time testing the water and maintaining a distance from us just far enough away to torment. Do they gain a perverse pleasure in the tormenting? Are they truly tormented themselves?
I am reaching the place of detachment, I did not really understand how this feels until recently. I now know exactly what it feels like. I do not like it. For me, getting there will be the point of no return. I am fearful that I will become hateful and ultimately will cause permanent damage by my actions and words to a relationship I have worked so hard to save.
For instance, yesterday...My H came to get our son in the am, I was fully aware because of his choice of vehicle that he had been with OW at her place Friday night. In the past I would have tried to engage H with food or kind words and a body language that was accepting and loving for sure. This time, I am disgusted. I am getting so disgusted by even looking at him when I know he is still with her. I had all I could do to glance at him when he spoke and smile with him over conversations with our son.
I am guessing that this is the beginning of total detachment. Disgust and hateful thoughts are not something I have ever felt for him before.
I have read that it is the one who is detached to have all the power. It is common that when the LBS reaches the point of total detachment completely that the WAS wants back in.
Why does it take such extremes?
AND the OW....OH my God!!! These women are in relationships with married men. These women have absolutely no morals or scruples. What possesses them to stay for so long? In my case over 5.5 years.
I know why I have stayed. What makes them stay? They are in a relationship based on cheating and dishonesty.
Beatrice, you are very wise...I think you have the answer to this and it is in total detachment. It's a hard lesson to learn and it's a long road to get there. Most of us should have learned it long ago....
Thank you for your wisdom and support,
Sanderika
SA I am not sure that we are told to act as competent and capable to the MLCer. Certainly they cannot cope with our neediness, for a lot of reasons, but the capability and competence are for ourselves.
What I think your husband was reacting to was his lack of certainty that you were OK For him everything is a mask, and he needs to be sure of what is real in the one he truly relies on.
They are not really PO that we don't curl up but they do resent our capability [while relying on it] It sounds contradictory but many MLC responses are not straightforward.
At least that is my take on it!
Sanderika, as I understand it, true detachment is not feeling hateful towards our spouses.
The reluctance to come home is I think fear of being unhappy, and guilt at all the pain they caused us. The do not know what they want for the longest time. Usually they do not intend to torement, although sometimes they want others to feel the hurt and pain they do, But I think this varies for each MLCer.
Getting there is not a point of no return. I thought that too, and was therefore, without realising it, afraid of detaching fully. Detaching, as I understand it, is finally being really OK on your own, really OK in yourself, and content with your lot. It doesn't depend in any way, shape or form on what your spouse is doing. Thus they cannot hurt you or harm you by their actions and inactions. It is the place of no expectations. But it isn't a cold dry aloof place. Detached I can feel much more real compassion than I was able to feel before when I was hurt by what he did, and forgiveness was a real struggle.
Sanderika - you cannot save the relationship - you have tolerated bad behaviour for a long time, and if you are now feeling disgust then you are acknowledging what you truly feel and this is authentic and right. This feeling will not last forever.
As to why the OW stays - they are needy damaged women, and so are our WAS. In addition in most cases the WAS is financially bailing them out - not always. Some of the OWs find someone that is better suited to them, and move on, others stay perhaps in the hope that the r will become permanent.
Please believe me when I say that detachment does not harden you, it softens you and enables you to be the person you really are - you aren't always responding or reacting to your WAS. You have time for others, energy you didn't have before and a new zest for life. The negative bit of the path you are on right now is like a rough bit of road before a lovely country walk.
Btw, it took me the longest time to get detached - oddly enough being divorced helped. What I dreaded liberated me!!
Beatrice, thank you so much for your compassion for us all.
Yes, I dread being divorced.
Yes, I have remained hopeful and faithful that our marriage would be repaired and renewed.
I am at a crossroads. I understand that he wants to be friends with me. I do not know how to do this when I do not respect his lifestyle and choice of the OW.
It has been so hard to say goodbye to him when he leaves. He appears to leave with contentment that we are friends. He appears happy and with a calm sense of satisfaction after having kind conversations and accepting (I'm not slamming the door in his face or telling him to wait on the porch or ignoring his calls and hiding upstairs when he contacts) motions from me and son.
It is hard to describe, but he seems relaxed and comfortable in his world. He is obviously liking being friends with me.
However, it is still a very one-sided friendship. He reaches out to converse with me and I refuse to reach out to converse with him.
I have opted to let him say goodbye and I just turn and walk away or go about my business and let him just go. I usually keep up my project w/o skipping a beat or just shut the door which is new for me not to walk him outside.
He has spent a great deal of time reconnecting to son, he has spent the last 7 weekends in a row with him and I know both are enjoying this time a great deal. It does make me happy to see this. It has been a long time coming. H did absolutely nothing with son for well over 5.5 years. Due to this new found relationship I have seen a good deal more of H.
I do not like my disgust and hateful feelings, I hope I can navigate through this relatively quickly.
I understand that I cannot save the marriage, I have done the work required and it appears he isn't really interested in doing the same. Beatrice, I am not gaining any satisfaction in not reaching my ultimate goal which was to restore our marriage. I am still having a hard time realizing this. Thus, I am growing in disgust and hate.
Where am I going from here?
What will come next for me?
I am disappointed that I am not really on the path to detaching.
I recently had an IC appt. and I said that I have lost my future. I really feel like I have. My well planned and hard earned life is gone. I have lost my husband, family and career in this. I am a Mom on her own struggling to find work and peace of mind.
I need to get there by September. We will have a scheduled court appearance then and I need to put an end to the marriage.
Beatrice, you are a wonderful friend, thank you...
Sanderika
Sanderika you are in a hard place. Your husband is seeking your friendship. Understand that for him you are on a pedestal, and he feels pretty worthless. He is living in an altered reality, and the OW is below him [if that isn't an unkind thing to say] Thus in his sense of inadequacy, he feels comfortable with her.
Re-read TMAK's thread on reconnection.
When I said that you cannot save the marriage, I meant that you on your own cannot do this. Like you I lost my future and my financial security, and I am older than you! So I know what you mean. I would not oppose the divorce. Just calmly go ahead with it. I promise that two to three months post divorce you will start to feel better. If you want some time out from your h coming round, don't pretend it is OK. It is alright to say that divorce makes a difference. A few months down the line you may feel more like being friendly again.
It is much more authentic not to wear a mask the whole time. If the divorce hurts you then let your husband know this - calmly and with dignity, which is very much your style. You could just say 'I need some time to get used to the idea of being divorced. Could you spend time with our son somewhere else for a while',[ or at your house, but you be out].
My sense here, and I could be wrong is that you have dbed your socks off, but not as much for yourself to flourish and have fun over the past 5+ years. As a divorced woman your h has no more rights than a stranger to come into your home. They simply do not think it through. In fact some even go so far as to think it will be easier to start over once you are divorced, with a clean slate.
In some ways my situation was easier as my h did not come round all the time, and did want to be friends. There are some signs now that he is rethinking this, but at a snali's pace, and I am fine. I can handle it if he does, and I am content if he doesn't.
I do not know if you know anything about Ignatian spirituality [based on the teachings of St Ignatius Loyola] There is a concept of indifference to one's fate which is like detachment. it doesn't mean you do not care, but that you are content with whatever happens, knowing that it will be good for you. I can now see my journey had purpose and meaning for me. Perhaps your well planned and hard earned life is not the best life for you - perhaps there is something else in store.
I think you are on the path to detaching - those feelings of disgust are normal and natural and will pass. Because you have been so nice and so kind you haven't allowed yourself to feel them before. We all feel something like this, I believe, at some point.
While we are 'waiting' for our marriage to be restored we are on tenterhooks and it is our goal. But actually the goal is inside us. That is why they tell us to focus on ourselves, on what we want and need. The restoration of our marriage is what we all come here looking for, and success is still often seen in this happening. But the reality is that MLC is a hard path, and takes a long time. I am not saying we shouldn't give restoring our marriage our best shot, but it may or may not happen, whereas we do have the power to transform ourselves. Hugs
I sense some further change in H. He is slowly but surely moving closer. My therapist suggested I disregard ow's existence as she is a crutch the same way alcohol or drugs maybe and he still needs her atm.
I do wonder about the status of the r with ow. I do know that as D was staying with H all week he did not see ow and when I returned H spent the time with me. I am all too aware that this is a long journey that offers no guarantees. For now, I am feeling a little more positive and I can step back a little, knowing he will seek me out.
I am so happy that it seems to be working!
Thanks Beatrice. I feel that H is definitely feeling his way here and exploring possibilities. I saw the therapist agin today and she affirmed the slow but steady progress made. For example when I was out of town last week he took me to the airport and hugged me goodbye, text me to see how things were going one night (a first), collected me from the airport and when I came home there was homemade soup in the fridge. It feels ok as it is and I feel quite strong emotionally and so I continue.....slowly, slowly.
I should also add that I feel better since I started seeing the therapist and know that I am more consistent in my approach and responses with H. That's not to say that I don't feel impatient and challenged by this!!!
Hi Cas,
I have been following along and thinking about you every day.
I think you are well on the road to reconnection with H regardless of how slow the progress seems to be.
As it was put by another poster: The closer you get to reconciliation the harder it is to see the progress.
Keep the faith and keep doing what you are. It is working very well for you
I plan to reply to you in the alt.
(((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
Hi Sanderika,
It's good to hear from you. There's not much happening on one hand and lots on the other. Crazy!!
I sense forward movement and a very comfortable and quite supportive relationship between us. However, it's still somewhat one sided. H is showing more care and concern but there's still a great deal that's all about him.
OW appears to be gone or at least in hibernation.
Cas
Hi hun, caught up with GAG on the alt and she told me about your good news! Ive been looking in but missed this thread some how!
Hope all is going well still,xxx
Hi Rabbit, Good to hear from you as always. Things are travelling along reasonably smoothly and I am following my therapist's advice. It seems good, especially compared to the past. H is receptive to co-parenting and is very supportive of me as the primary parent, is working towards positive relationships with extended family and friends and is really listening to me. He accepts the majority of invitations I issue and gives reasons for non-acceptance. He's dipping his toe in the water but occasionally it's still a little too cold and he runs away. The length of this run has reduced considerably and it's usually the next day that he shows his face again. I can see that he is considering possibilities but this takes such a long time!!
As always I am impatient and I am tired of initiating. Mostly we're having dinner at each other's houses and fairly casual conversations. I just want to start having a social life with him; nothing too elaborate but just dinner or movies or drives; things to look forward to together. He makes noises about doing these things but they never seem to come to fruition and at this moment I am tired of being the initiator.
I know this sounds whiny when others would so love to be in my position but I have been at this a VERY long time!!
Hope all is well in your world, Rabbit
Hun you are not wrong to be tired of iniating, and perhaps when you feel the time is right you should very cheerfully tease him its his turn to organise the next date! Or do you feel its a date or is it more meeting a mate for coffee?
Dont settle for less just because you think its what everyone wants! It really has to be perfect for you first and then everyone will be happy you are happy..
Im fine lots going on and a fantastic trip to Vienna for my 25th wedding anniversary. We really try and make time with each other and if life goes a bit pearshaped and busy we plan some thing in so we have it to look forward too instead of feeling neglected.
I think your journey is going to be slow but for it to be the perfect ending you deserve dont rush it however frustrating it might be!
Take care hun!
Thanks Rabbit....so glad things are going so well for you. I think making time for each other is crucial so that you have things to look forward to. It's about addressing each other's needs isn't it? I am wondering if this will ever happen in my situation. H still seems caught up on his needs. He sees me if it fits in with his plans but if he's tired or busy it seems he doesn't manage to compromise in any way. I am trying hard to keep things smooth and not be too demanding/needy but it's still really all about him. I am starting to feel a bit resentful about this I think and although I do try to remind myself that it's early days and he's made no commitment to me I do feel heartily sick of it all. Trying to whinge here so I don't bombard him!!
Totally with you hun! When H first came back home believe me it was still all about him and I fitted in where?
In fact we actually had a laugh about this the other day, H got a bit stroppy for a minute and then took a step back rephrased what he was saying and dropped the attitude, I couldnt help but smile and say "thank goodness for that I thought for a moment petulant child was making a come back and believe me I would so have been outta here if he had"
Yes keep things smooth but boundaries boundaries boundaries hun! I was chatting with GAG last night and cant push boundaries home enough.. Petulant child comes home but if you let petulant child run riot they stay that way and never get any better! H was horrid when he first came back in particular about contacting my sister, but I kept my ground and respected me 100% it took about six standings of my boundaries till I got sick enough of it to push my luck and state "its her or me who do you want" I then turned tail went to work and felt as sick as a pig all day, when I came home it was to a changed man, petulant child was on the decline :-)
Yes keep things smooth but even if you were sited as being the reason for him leaving remember half of his reasoning is utter twaddle, not to him but certainly not the truth either.. Do something about things you agree you needed to change and set boundaries on changing into a pushover.
Winge way away get your frustrations out and dont let them eat you up and poison your attempts at going forward. Set some dates for seeing changes, how long are you going to organise meetings, when is it time to cancel one and go do something else for you, when is it time for you to be tired and have a hairwash night.. When is it time for you to pick something you want to do and he might not but ask him to support you and come anyway? When is it time to say ok we are great freinds but we are never gonna be a couple! Set these all up in you mind, diary, word document, reread them as all of these reiterate you are a single lady with a mind and choice of her own, he on the other hand will be the one missing the bus!
New thread time I think!!! I'll reply over there rabbit.
Well I started typing my new thread and an idea came to mind....I have to follow this up first. Back when I have the information I need!!
Yes, I have the information I needed. It's over with ow according to H although they still have email contact. H still shows huge degrees of confusion and appears to be 'stuck' at this stage. I'm not sure I have the energy to help him any further.