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Posted By: braveheart Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/24/10 11:20 PM
Contrary to popular belief, I am not opposed to standing for one's marriage. I do believe that there does become a point and time when I do think its harmful and the LBS should move on. What are your thoughts and opinions?
Martyr.

: )

I agree.

I just do not believe it is up to anyone but the LBS to make that determination.
Posted By: MissH Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 12:49 AM
I agree with Jack. The final say has to come from the LBS themselves.

But that doesn't mean that you can't try to get people to see the light of day after awhile.

When I finally accepted that my marriage was truly over, and there will never be or do I ever want another husband/wife relationship with my ex, I finally stated to heal and put total focus on my own self.

Sure there are some spouses that come out of this, but I believe the majority won't admit what they did was wrong. The statistics are just too low, so I think it's more important to show LBS there is a life out there that doesn't include their MLCer.

If the MLCer ever does come out of it and decide to rejoin your world again, then great if you want it. But if they don't, then you should get to a point where that is just great too.
Posted By: Bworl Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 01:16 AM
Standing is unhealthy if you're doing it for the wrong reason.

And it is definitely a personal decision. We (myself included) have a tendency to push too hard on what WE think a person should do or not do in that area.
Posted By: MissH Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 01:31 AM
Bill,

Maybe we push because those of us that have gotten to the other side (acceptance, moving on) realize what a better and healthier place it is.

Maybe it just hurts to watch those who seem stuck on the opposite side and continue to suffer and hurt when we know they can find a happier place if they would just open their eyes to it?

Just thinking out loud.
One day it just happens
The lbs eems ready to move on
maybe the time frame is different for each of us
maybe outside circumstances affect this
those they fall into a new R may move on quicker than those who dont
I agree the choice is up to the person

I am grateful though that I have moved forward here
I do not want my xh back any longer
I never thought( 3 years ago) I would get to this point
I also think it brings hope to the LBS that we do get better
we eventually all seem to let go
many of us start new and probably better R
many of us seem to find peace and happiness
peace
I feel there are two steps for an LBS in ending the relationship and moving on.

Step 1- Accepting that the old marriage is over. Even if there is a reconciling, the marriage of old is dead. That is why I like the approach over here in MLC. By focusing on yourself, as opposed to forcing or controlling the overall situation, the issues that the LBS finds within themselves have been addressed. More so....those issues have been wiped out by consistency and habit. So in the new marriage or future relationships those old issues don't reappear. You have time to take ownership in the parts of the marriage that you might have been lacking instead of just saying it was all the WAS.

Down the road from that is;

Step 2- At this point you can make serious decisions about any future with the WAS. These decisions are based on a sound emotional footing. You can really ask yourself "Was the marriage that good?" or "Was my spouse really that good for me?", and of course "Will my future be better by completely letting it go?".

So I agree, there definitely is a point of no return. The issue is that a lot of people want to skip step 1. Blame everything on the WAS and take little or no ownership for their part of the marriage demise. I don't just mean lip service either...I mean real deep soul searching on one's part in the relationship. So without that soul searching they bring their past issues into the next relationship.
Posted By: Drew Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 01:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
I just do not believe it is up to anyone but the LBS to make that determination.

smile
I agree with much that has been posted. I do want to point out that I agree that any choice in life is up to the individual. If someone wanted to dump ashes on their head and wear a sackcloth the rest of their life, it would be up to them. What I want to explore is when is it not a good choice to stand. People make their own choices, but it doesn't mean its right or good. We have all kinds of standers here, newbies trying to get a handle on everything, intermediaries who are waiting for the MLC to end, long term standers who are really stuck in life, and closet standers who profess to be making changes, but really haven't. I understand the need to stand, but why continue if after years, nothing has changed? Why continue if you are divorced and the MLCer has remarried? Unfortunately many stand to be martyr's, problem with that is, unless you are being a martyr for a worthwhile cause, no one really cares. I believe that many folks have such low self esteem that they really feel like they cannot be with anyone else. I'm not making fun of anyone by making that statement, on the contrary, I would love to see them get some help for themselves.
Posted By: Bworl Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 07:18 PM
If your spouse has divorced you AND remarried another, and you still attach the label "stander" to yourself, I think there is significant and unhealthy denial taking place.

I don't mean to say that you have to move on and find another person or even get remarried yourself. But if your ex-spouse is now remarried, there cannot be anything healthy about continuing to THINK as though perhaps one day things will come around again.

Would a new divorce be right just in order to restore your previous marriage? Definitely hitting some grey areas there, at least for me.

Short of that scenario, I have no problem with anyone choosing to "stand" for their marriage. My hope would be that NO ONE would put their life on hold for someone who has walked away in a definitive manner. There is too much life out there to be lived and enjoyed to spend too long waiting for someone who is never even thinking about you.


However much we would like to think otherwise, sometimes people change their mind. My ex-wife told me for years that she shared my belief in marriage as a lifetime thing. Clearly she changed her mind about that. If I had put my life on hold, hoping that she would change her mind again, I would be stuck in the same place for nearly four years now.
BH-

You are correct that as individuals we can make the decision any time we want. What you are implying though are really two questions.

The first;

Quote:
What I want to explore is when is it not a good choice to stand.


This is a good question. What if the sack of ashes was hot out of the oven? Would somebody still dump the ashes on their head or think about it for a second? Would somebody pour that same bag of hot ashes over themselves if they had been drinking all night and were plastered out of their mind? Would they do it they were plastered with a bunch of plastered friends egging them on and nobody was thinking about the burn they would get?

I would say no to the first one, maybe to the second one, and quite possibly to the third. What has been helpful for a lot of us is to detach, breathe, think, and then decide as opposed to just doing. We don't ask people to stand up...we help them get to a place were they stand up for the right reasons. so the bad time to stand up...is when you haven't slown down enough to think.

Why do people stand up for so long?...depends on the person. I think in some cases it is a self-esteem issue, but in others it is a commitment to principles. In others it may be that they truly haven't had enough pain to fall out of love and others due to the financial implications.

There are some people on here who have been here for a long time, but there is many, many more who have been here, got through it, and moved on. Some may just stick around because they have friendships on here.

In the end...people will stop standing when the time is right for them.
Quote:

Unfortunately many stand to be martyr's, problem with that is, unless you are being a martyr for a worthwhile cause, no one really cares.


What do I care, or what should anyone care, for what other people think in this?



Is it unhealthy to stand for a marriage?

...

It is not that cut and dry.

It is unhealthy to be in denial? Long term, more than likely.

It is not the cut and dry to suggest that long terms standers are hurting themselves. There is far more to this, than black and white.

Variables: Is the spouse really in MLC. Is the LBSer growing, but keeping the door open for the possibility or a reconcilliation. How much time is too much?

There are so many different factors that their is no one thing that say if you are standing for 2 years you are STUCK.

I have a huge problem with telling someone whether or not they should hope. It is not my job, or place, and who the F am I to take away someone's hope.

That is why I absolutely believe it is up to the LBSer. I think that as the LBSer grows and developes past the person they were when they first came here...they get the tools to decide how long is enough.

What about the spouses that come back aft 2 years...or 4...did the LBS in that situation wait too long? Was it unhealthy for them?

...

On the flip side?

Are there people I 'worry' about here?

I think there are people we all worry about...

But again, they need to figure it out.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 08:22 PM
So how many people are standing her for over two years that are stuck? I know a few but even they seem to be working on changing. What really shocks me is the amount of people that give up on their marriages after a short time.
Posted By: Drew Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 08:25 PM
What if you Stand more than once?
Posted By: Lissie Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/25/10 08:33 PM
Quote:
What I want to explore is when is it not a good choice to stand


HI Bravey :-)

When you don't know if you are making a choice to stand b/c it is what you want or b/c you read things that say, give it one more day, try it again....you can do this...

You feel like greeeeeeeaaaat, maybe I do want to stand again, and your head spins... You are on information overload.

Normal everyday interactions are labeled as maybe meaning the WAS is coming back.

It made my head spin....

I think the information here given to the wonderful people that come here should ONLY be Take care of you... You matter...

Don't even bring standing or not standing into the converstion

Once the info gets into the arena of , put on make up when he comes over, put a smile on your face, when he sees you, let him make the first move, no let her move out, don't call the lawyer, call the lawyer. Reply to the email this way... Don't reply..


When you read all of this, and you are trying to be a single mom or dad, and have your babies holding on to you at night, screaming why their mom or dad just left, it makes you want to sleep for days....it is way to much...

It is so very personal if someone wants to stand for their marriage, even if we can plainly see that they are standing for something that is abusive. The light bulb has to go off on the person.....at their own time...

The goal here is to get the self esteem up on people I think that was DBING is about..... AND we can only do that by being a cheerleader of YOU ARE GOING TO BE BETTER THAN FINE..and you will be... Put in the work to better yourselves and free yourself of what keeps you in bondage...

If these people come back or not should not even matter..

The advice should not be geared toward them coming back or not..It should focus on the LBS getting healthy soul, body and spirit...
Take care of you, so then in turn you can take care of your children, your finances, your heart, your health....

THEN you are able to respond to their weird emails, their phone calls.. their crap.

Enjoy the wonderful life that is out there to be lived.... Get your footing back.......

If the focus is on the LBS becoming the best person they can be, then you don't have to worry about , is your stand good enough... Did you stand long enough....

Am I doing enough? maybe if I did this, they would come back?

THE GOAL IS YOU........ fall in love with YOU again.
I see a lot of people who are stuck...
they aren't stuck because they are standing

they are stuck because they still go back to what their spouse is doing

they have not detached

all the GALing in the world really isn't GALing if you sit at home and pine away and wonder "what if" and bemoan your fate

GAL really means GETTING A LIFE
a life means living

sending yourself flowers and acting mysterious isn't getting a life

wondering why this happened to you over nad over again isn't getting a life

feeling the affects of their MLC or their attitude means you haven't really GAL
which means
all your "hard work" is smoke and mirrors

you haven't gotten a life
you just pretended you have

once you get one

their life becomes secondary to yours
because you are too busy living to notice
Wow, Figgeroni!

Powerful post and lots of good sense just when I needed to hear it!

Although I have been doing GAL type stuff I am still way too involved with the craziness of my husbands MLC. It is hard when he is still in the house to try to detach. He is pushing for divorce, yet he is here most of the time..... hard to not have hope.
Again, nice posts and info. Jack, about your reply about not caring about what others think, I was only pointing out that to be a martyr in a hopeless marriage was silly, and I wasn't trying to be black and white, however, I do believe that most situations here are pretty cut and dry. Jack, I know you and I disagree on that point, so we will agree to disagree. Lissie, I feel honored to have a reply from you! I don't see you on here much anymore! You have some excellent points! I do want to add this; I have spoken to some people who have stood and did get their spouse back, and they feel bad about themselves for putting up with the things they tolerated. I have to think that long term standing and rejection would have to work on someone mentally. I do agree with those who say that in standing, the LBS must focus on themselves and move forward improving themselves, sadly, many on here really don't do that and focus much of their time wondering about the WAS, MLCer, etc.
Figgy's posts are always so insightful and powerful and never preachy- (not that anyones here are!) , arent they? love to read them, even now! Always some little nugget to learn and ponder

She should be a teacher.. smile
Thank you Jack...

Most of has, especially us that are new, we need hope.

I'm going to keep my word to my little MLC'er, because that's all I got.

In the mean time, I know what mistakes I made and what I'd like to do to make it better if given the chance.

So yeah I pray for her and a lot of other people.

In the mean time, I really am not afraid of anything, absolutely nothing. This was my worst fear and I am living throught it and I am not going to owe that entitled little MLC'er, nothing, I am even going to pay for her divorce, why?!

Real easy to prove a point, don't ever try to get over on a guy that gave everything and it still wasn't enough, I'm man enough to look at myself admit my faults, but all someone has in life is there word.

And more importantly to for myself, if a person does not have a goal to work for, man your dead, and don't set a date.

"Man's Search For Meaning" great book, someone can do what they want to us, we control how we let it affects us.

I want to prove to myself, I can rebuild with no ones help and my kids, I did what I said I'd do and more importantly I did not cut down their mom, like their mom did me.

Yes it hurts, it hurts like hell, but I am determined to show those kids and her what they are missing WHICH WAS Me, not the overworked,stressed out,person I was before.
Braveheart et al.,

Originally Posted By: Braveheart
I do believe that there does become a point and time when I do think its harmful and the LBS should move on. What are your thoughts and opinions?

Originally Posted By: Bworl
Standing is unhealthy if you're doing it for the wrong reason.

I don’t think it is standing that is harmful but what people do with it—or do not do with it. It is how they handle or do not handle standing and about attitude. It killed my best friend. Technically her cause of death was a stroke, but her family and I know what brought that on. She was too afraid to set any type of boundary because she feared her MLCer would not return—a man who did not want a divorce. He lived at home through most of the crisis and moved out only in the last year. They were both unhealthily attached to one another.

As her friend I supported her stand while not agreeing with her methods—or lack thereof. But I knew had I not supported her as a stander, it would not have changed her mind. Her family and most other friends were fed-up, tired of hearing it, angry and beyond at her MLCer etc. But I don’t think it was standing or being a stander but what she did and did not do with that. I knew that as Jack said, she had to make the choice to stand or not and she had to choose her strategies; she chose fear. I also don’t think she was in denial when she believed her MLCer would move home—I knew her situation well and being with her was part of his pattern. In the end she finally started to doubt which increased her fears. But she could not face the possibility that he would not come home—and notice I am not saying return, I merely mean a physical move home; a return would have been dependent on their growth.

Originally Posted By: Braveheart
We have all kinds of standers here, newbies trying to get a handle on everything, intermediaries who are waiting for the MLC to end, long term standers who are really stuck in life, and closet standers who profess to be making changes, but really haven't. I understand the need to stand, but why continue if after years, nothing has changed? Why continue if you are divorced and the MLCer has remarried?

That implies that all long-term standers are stuck—though I doubt you meant it that way. What constitutes long-term? Two years, 3, 5, 7?
What about Covenant Keepers—perhaps they could be called extreme standers. Covenant Keepers stand based on religious principle. Some keep their covenant by refusing to remarry, though they do not expect their spouse to return. That is the case with some standers who do not consider themselves Covenant Keepers also.

Originally Posted By: Bworl
If your spouse has divorced you AND remarried another, and you still attach the label "stander" to yourself, I think there is significant and unhealthy denial taking place.
… But if your ex-spouse is now remarried, there cannot be anything healthy about continuing to THINK as though perhaps one day things will come around again.

Is that universal? In all cases where the MLCer has remarried, it is denial of the (real) spouse stands and will accept reconciliation?
I think that part of standing means a person either will accept reconciliation under appropriate conditions or that they will refuse remarriage in Covenant Keeper fashion. But it does not mean they think it will happen—that they believe the odds are in their favor. Yes, some believe that and that may or may not be denial—each situation is different. I knew without a doubt my husband and I would make it through together, some people said I was in denial and many did not—some because they knew I would disagree and others because they saw what was happening.

I would have continued to stand had my MLCer married the borderline personality, pregnancy faking, suicide threatening OW who told him he should be with her because she was weak and I was strong enough to be without him. I believe whole-heartedly that such a marriage would have failed.

Originally Posted By: Bworl
My hope would be that NO ONE would put their life on hold for someone who has walked away in a definitive manner. There is too much life out there to be lived and enjoyed to spend too long waiting for someone who is never even thinking about you.

My hope too. Standing isn’t still, it includes moving on, sadly many do not move on—such as my best friend.

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
I have a huge problem with telling someone whether or not they should hope. It is not my job, or place, and who the F am I to take away someone's hope.

I believe that Hope is something that you can let run in the background, but instead people rely on it and use it as their crutch.

Originally Posted By: Bworl
What really shocks me is the amount of people that give up on their marriages after a short time.

Yeah, me too.

Originally Posted By: Lissie
I think the information here given to the wonderful people that come here should ONLY be Take care of you... You matter...

Don't even bring standing or not standing into the converstion

After Bomb Drop I did not know there was such a thing as Standing. He wanted out and I thought that meant I could do nothing. Okay, O could work on myself, but I thought that had nothing to do with my marriage. I always knew I would be fine—eventually—had we not reconciled. I agree that take care of you should be a main part of the opening messages, but like most hope-seeking newbies, I needed more. I also needed that little light of hope to help me turn my focus back onto myself—even if I was using that hope as a temporary crutch; it is when it becomes a permanent prosthetic limb that is a problem.

Originally Posted By: Lissie
Once the info gets into the arena of , put on make up when he comes over, put a smile on your face, when he sees you, let him make the first move, no let her move out, don't call the lawyer, call the lawyer. Reply to the email this way... Don't reply..

Yes, this is overwhelming confusing and then add his own cycling to that confusion. UGH

Originally Posted By: Lissie
The goal here is to get the self esteem up on people I think that was DBING is about..... AND we can only do that by being a cheerleader of YOU ARE GOING TO BE BETTER THAN FINE..and you will be... Put in the work to better yourselves and free yourself of what keeps you in bondage...

Agreed

Originally Posted By: Lissie
The advice should not be geared toward them coming back or not..It should focus on the LBS getting healthy soul, body and spirit...
Take care of you, so then in turn you can take care of your children, your finances, your heart, your health....

THEN you are able to respond to their weird emails, their phone calls.. their crap.

All of that Self-focus and growth is what is needed to get to reconciliation, but upon hearing that some do it manipulatively and it is thus not real. Personal Growth needs to be it’s own purpose and the rest will fall into place—and that may or may not include reconciliation.

But Heart’s Blessing said something important on the thread Old Pilot started for Jack.

Originally Posted By: Heart’s Blessing
Until the majority of "why" questions are answered, most people generally will NOT BUDGE, continuing to insist that the MLC/WAS is totally at fault, that they have to change, not the LBS, and the discussion continues until something gives, or not.

I emphasized a specific piece of that because it is not merely refusing to look in the mirror at their own flaws and stop blaming their MLCer that keeps a person stuck. For some, or perhaps many, until they get some questions answered they will not stop focusing on those questions. I got so fed-up with being told that I shouldn’t ask something. Just say I don’t know! I was fine with that, but when people told me to stop asking or that I wasn’t turning to God enough (Jim Conway’s group), I became more upset, more frustrated and a bit incensed and yes, defensive. I was praying—constantly. I was praying for guidance, peace, the ability to sleep, God’s will… For me, learning about MLC helped me to turn my focus onto myself again. It also helped me to gain understanding and compassion.
Now, that is not the same as the do this and not that…no do that and not this…strategies. But even that was part of the journey.

Originally Posted By: Figgeroni
I see a lot of people who are stuck...
they aren't stuck because they are standing

they are stuck because they still go back to what their spouse is doing

they have not detached

Exactly. This said it well.

Standing is a choice; it’s what you do with it that is healthy or unhealthy.
karenmarie...I love you and I am going to kiss you ON THE MOUTH!!!! smile
I TOTALLY believe pictures should be taken in that event.
You turnin' all Katy Pery on me Fig? lol

and JTB- your a sick pup-- I like it! lol

Have a good weekend kids!!
The hardwiring in my brain says its good. : )

Thanks.
BH,
There is nothing I can add to your thread that hasn't already been said.
I chose to stand for many reasons, but one of the main ones was for my children. I didn't want to just give up until I was definately sure that I was done.
In hindsight I don't regret my choice, just some of the ways I handled some of the situations and my emotions.
Would I ever stand again?
Hell no!
Once bitten, twice shy smile
Posted By: forward Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/27/10 07:38 PM
I think that something that should be said is that getting back in touch with yourself is fun!

But it takes time. It's a learning process. And I do believe that you have to go through it for yourself, without an eye to whether your spouse comes back. I haven't been dating, but that has to do with me and where I am finding myself, not because of X. I don't feel quite ready to do it yet.

The DB work of focusing on yourself is valuable regardless because we do not want to carry unresolved anger into the next relationship.
Good afternoon, Braveheart,


I've read the posts on this thread several times.
I totally agree with the points that have been made thus far.

People have had a tendency to see me as a "success,
simply because I made it through with my husband,
but they never stopped to ask me how things had really
changed because of my husband's MLC.

Our marriage was NEVER the same when he came out, some changes I
liked, some I didn't, but accepted the whole package, and
made the necessary adjustments, keeping my own changes
intact. He had adjusments to make as well. There were
changes in me that HE didn't like, but it was either accept
them or walk...I wasn't doing it any other way, nor would I
go back to what I was.
The SAME rules for both people.

Life will always have its problems, and ours, even at this later time,
is NO different in that respect. Life throws curves, we field
those as a couple..and life goes on.

The door is always open for both of us, should either decide to leave,
even at this late date.
The "cage door" stays open forever.

Would I go back and change what happened? Not at all.
Would I have done some things differently? Yeah, probably,
but who can say? I chose my path, lived it, and still
live it to this day.

Standing, to me, can take many forms.
If some are standing for what their spouses were before the MLC tunnel, that may
NOT be what they get. If the MLC spouse allows this to change
them, they will come out different, changed, something burned out
of them.
I'm speaking from not only my own experience in his MLC, but my
own transition, as well. I literally scared my husband upon
my exit...I wasn't the same person he knew, just as he'd not been the same
person I'd known beforehand....He had waited for me, just as I'd waited for him..but neither got what we'd bargained for. smile

We were strangers to each other. And that called for a "starting
over."

So, the standing may need to be focused in another way, based
on each individual situation.

Some, may go on with their lives, leaving a door
open, while having the difficult task of trying to see
within themselves the realities of everything in their
lives that brought them to this place.

Others may NEVER get over the hurt, and all the pushing
in the world will never bring them to any other understanding.

Still, others, may continue to stand even AFTER the MLC'er/WAS
has remarried...to me, that would definitely be an unhealthy
stand..the door would be closed to any reconciliation, then IMHO.

Each person is different and unique in their situation.

The change that occurred when MLC'er/WAS stepped out of
the marriage is PERMANENT.
There's NO going back once things have happened and damage done.
What some don't stop and realize, is the growing that takes
place within MUST BE PERMANENT. The changes were NEVER
intended to "get the husband/wife back."

We ALL must grow up for all time, truly, and honestly.

I stood, in the beginning, for the usual reasons; I made
a promise, and stood by that promise. I still loved my
husband, and we had a son and history together. I knew there was
hope as long as I loved my husband.

Yet, I went through difficulties even as I stood.
Many questions answered and unanswered, even as I grew, going through
this trial.

Commitment carried me for a time, as there WAS a time when
I didn't love him, hated him for what he was doing.

There can be so much damage done that love is destroyed,
contrary to what anyone says; and I had to face the
never-ending question of "How much damage is too much?" as I went through, along with
"what if" questions that I could never answer to my own satisfaction.

Eventually, I went on with my life, letting go completely,
only to find him walking on my heels later on..but that was
HIS choice, I didn't have anything to do with it.

As each person is different, and each situation is different, my husband
did not move out, nor did I make him do so. We ALL have
choices we make; I made mine, he made his. I wasn't "keeping" him
from moving out, nor was I forcing him to stay.

The point being, we know our husbands/wives better than we
might think we do..and although MLC is "laid over" the top
of these personalities for a time..the core person we know
is still there.

For example, I knew, without the shadow of a doubt if I'd thrown
him out, or he'd chosen to leave, it would have finished our
marriage..Pride is a driving force within my husband, and that,
alone, would have kept him from "crawling" back to me..that IS
how he would have seen it.

Having him still at home, except for the times he was out on the road,
did indeed make things harder, but I feel I gained in
strength to make up for that inconvenience.

Everything happens for a reason, this, I know, too.

Did that make me a "better" success? No, I was successful, because
I walked my journey through; the marriage coming through intact was
an added bonus, not a means to an end.

As it was, I, too, faced the possibility that he might decide NOT
to continue with our marriage. I know this is as a fact, because I
was TOLD this by him after he broke Withdrawal.
Before, I'd gone on intuition, a knowing of him and how he really
was, regardless of what he was doing at that time.

Had he left, would the standing been for nothing? No, I had to see it
through to whatever end was coming, simply because I was unable to
answer all the "what if" questions.

We all have decisions to make concerning our own individual lives,
each and every day.

The decision to stand, or not, is definitely up to the
LBS, IMHO. Anyone can dispense all the helpful advice there is,
but in the end, you have to let go, and watch what happens
next.

Also, the fact that things are happening SO fast in the beginning
causes a panic within the LBS, many mistakes are made..and they realize
what they've done later, then decide to stand.
That was ME I'm describing in the aforementioned;
I'd thought many times I'd gone too far to recover; but
then it was up to my husband...it always was.

Yet, if he had decided NOT to stay with me, I could NOT have stopped him.

This is TRUE, regardless of the situation at hand.

The standing might work, and it might not...the ball is generally within
the MLC'er's court, and unfortunately, they may decide to go on and not
come back.

What people have generally missed in my postings, even that long ago, was
there were always possibilities, not definite things.

No one can EVER really say what's best for each individual situation..it is truly
up to the LBS and no one else.

I don't and NEVER claim to "know it all", but this is my two-cents worth, loosely based
on what I remember and know now.
H.B. You have a lot of experience and bring up some good points. You bring up an excellent one when you mentioned PRIDE. Its been my experience that most people, regardless of cause or need, will never admit they have done wrong. I feel this is extremely dangerous when dealing with an MLCer. Going through an MLC, one is supposed to see the wrongs they have done when they have completed the journey, in theory anyway. Regardless, if someone causes that much hurt and pain to people, they should see the error of their ways and be sorry and remorseful. If they are not, I'm not sure they have come out of it, or never will. IMO that opens the door for them to do things like that again, because if they didn't really see the wrongs they have done, why shouldn't they do it again?
Hello Braveheart, smile

Quote:
Regardless, if someone causes that much hurt and pain to people, they should see the error of their ways and be sorry and remorseful. If they are not, I'm not sure they have come out of it, or never will. IMO that opens the door for them to do things like that again, because if they didn't really see the wrongs they have done, why shouldn't they do it again?


Very good point. Anything is possible when someone refuses to see what they've done to destroy a relationship..and the LBS has to be prepared to see things in a light of reality that is so hard to see.
And prepare to make some hard decisions when this light is seen.

The rose colored glasses will indeed, fall off, shattering in the floor, and the MLC spouse is seen in less than a favorable light.
This is but a part of the growing process...the marriage is divided up into categories: his marriage, her marriage and their marriage...each piece is pulled apart and looked at for flaws, errors, and mistakes.

No one is perfect, regardless of who they are, and mistakes will always made; and life will not be perfect; there will always be thorns amongst the roses.

There are problems when pride gets in the way of a reconciliation, and that's buying the kind of trouble that no one needs.

Each person brings something to the marriage, whether it be baggage from childhood, problems from another life, tools to teach the other...each one balances out the other's weaknesses from a point of strength.

Yet, if pride is not dropped, and all confessed, plus learning from the mistakes made, it CAN open the door once again, to a repeat of mistakes..only this time, in FULL knowledge of what's committed.

My husband said when he broke Withdrawal, he was sorry for how he treated me, described the problem within himself, and made necessary changes to reflect that sorrow.
The one mistake I made was forgiving him right off the bat...after doing that I couldn't make him understand that he would have to deal with MY feelings on the matter.

I learned to NOT tell him when I forgave him(though, I forgave him within my heart)...making him think I was holding it on him until he saw his own actions through as each one came up to be looked at.
In his mind, when you forgave, you didn't have to deal with the hurt that laid with the person you hurt....and oh, that is NOT true. I pointed out harshly that even though he forgave me for what I did, he was STILL angry with me...and I had to bear this..but it seemed to make NO difference.
So, I started going the other direction....working through first, forgiveness spoken later.

He, however, never admitted to the OW he'd had while within the tunnel; I can't say either way how he handled that or resolved that within himself...she was HIS problem, not mine, and I didn't make it mine. I've figured out since then, that he did not wish to cause me further hurt...it was bad enough that I found out without him talking about it; the signs fell and actually sent me into a tail-spin at the time. And he saw that as I confronted him each time a sign fell.

I made it CRYSTAL clear to him that if something of this nature happened again that I'd simply show him the door, and possibly kick his hind end while he was walking out...and I MEANT it.

No, I didn't feel that I deserved what happened, and nearly DID throw him out over it.
I saw my contribution toward the breakdown, fixed that, grew, changed, and the rest went into the hands of the Lord to deal with.
If I hadn't, who knows what would have happened down the road?

I came to understand that OW was his re-creating of a connection with his "mother" so the break would finally send him into manhood for real;(this didn't happen the first time, and his mother had passed by the time he went into full-blown MLC)...and what happened when he tried to break it off was unforeseen by him.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he ever meant for it to go that far, but, temptation was laid before him, and he failed the test.

Quite simply, it was an EA that went to a PA when it was breaking down. The connection lasted as an EA one and a half years, it went PA the last six months, and from the signs I saw, he only slept with her three times...and it was close to breaking down totally when that happened.

As I recall, she burned up the phones, his cell and our house phone..and it was laughable at times...but something happened between them right before it broke for good; it might or might not have had to do with me.

I'm not blind to him the way I'd been before his MLC, I see him for what he really is, and still love him, yet, choose to continue to stay with him.

One last thing I probably need to point out, and this IS from my own experience:

It IS also possible to come out with an emotional block that neither spouse sees; until it comes out later on.

This is what has happened to my husband at this time.

Snoddery has said that it means he never truly exited the tunnel, something interrupted his processing. I'm not saying she's wrong....BUT;

The thing is, I SAW him come out, I was HERE when he came out, and I KNOW that it happened.

What I'm seeing here, currently, is one final issue that wasn't resolved while within the tunnel..his parent's divorce at the age of 7.

It's the form of a seven year old child who takes over from time to time, a smart aleck, somewhat mean at times; and quite honestly, I'd like to take a switch to him, but can't...I have to remind myself he's a 47 year old man. LOL!

The child appeared sometime in early 2005, or so..I was still in my Transition, and I MISSED IT!

He's a tattletale, tattling on our son, but backing off when I threaten to have a family conference.

I'm not asking what I should do about this...I'm just telling you what I see at this late date...another possiblity of this trial that I didn't see back then.

That child was NOT present and accounted for because he'd been blocked emotionally, by my husband, at that point in time. And I didn't know to look for him, because he wasn't shown to me.

This was the initial reason I came back. Nobody failed that I can see. It's just another bump in the road to navigate.

It has also come clear to me as I've consulted with people whose parents divorced at a young age that he may NEVER get through this one issue...the child in him will be set to the side, only to come back again later on at a later time.

I'd never dealt with my parents divorcing, so I have to confess I cannot understand what he is dealing with. Nor, do I know how to draw it out of him, so I can help him heal.

I have come to this conclusion:

It is up to him, not me..I can only choose my own actions/path, as well as let him go to make whatever decision he chooses in this.

I know this is NOT about me, it is about the stand of the LBS; yet, this is what I'm facing at this point in time, because what affects him, affects ME also, as we are STILL married.

Thank God, I am NOT sucked up into his drama; I'm actually quite detached from it, looking in from the outside.

So, I threw my cards out on the table to be looked at...and this is certainly NOT a full house. smile
Posted By: Lissie Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/31/10 01:57 PM
Quote:
Each person brings something to the marriage, whether it be baggage from childhood, problems from another life, tools to teach the other...each one balances out the other's weaknesses from a point of strength.


So how do you get to that point of strength? Don't you get to it by working on yourself? How can you work on your marriage? if you have not worked on yourself?
How do you stand for your marriage, when you can't stand on your own?

I see the success you are. AND you happen to be one that is reconciled with your spouse. I am also a success, I am divorced.. My children and I are doing very well.

I am a success b/c I fix myself every day.

If I wanted to stand, NOW would be the perfect time.. 4 years later... I have my footing.. I am detached... I love my EX again.. Not in love, but love him for being the father of my children.. Love him for the good times, and thank him and love him for the bad times. The thoughts of running him over with my car are few and far in between...

I am a different person, and now can see him differently. Is he someone I would want to be with now? No.. He is not ok... He is very hurt, he has issues way deep down that hav not been tackled.. Well I don't live with him so I can't say for sure. Let's just say that is what I see, and the children too..

When he first left me 4 years ago, I was dead inside... I came to the conclusion that I was dead inside while married too. I didn't see that until much later.. ALL I wanted to do was stand, for this marriage, and no one was going to tell me different.

BUT, when I came here I was lost, and in standing I thought that lost feeling was going to go away, b/c if my EX would just come back EVERYTHING was going to be ok.

I know now, 4 years later that is not true.

That is what i meant by my first post... The emphasis should not be on whether you are standing or not.. It should be on fixing yourself. When I was on this board in march of 06.. The people from the board/and getting my butt up and doing the work on me, is what helped me get through.. Not standing...

The peeps here, made sure that the peeps did something for themselves, everyday.

Our threads were filled with love, laughs, and shoe talk.....

I can remember back to Snodderly, giving me advice and it was always about me..... What I needed to do for me..... Not about how to get my EX back.... BUT in getting you back, some EX's come back......

We were invested in the hearts of each other....on this board When they joined a class, or started school, or when their kids passed a test, we celebrated all of it.
Where were our spouses when these things were happening? They were doing their MLC things.. BUT we were more focused on ourselves.
THEN focusing on the spouse, when need be was easier... It came from a different place from inside of us... We could see them with maybe a bit more compassion....

We saw them in maybe a more detached light.....AFTER, working on ourselves...

That is what i mean by standing or not standing should not even be brought up.. IMO.... Standing for yourself, is the winner..

All things fall into place... A reconciled better/new marriage... Or if a divorce is in your cards, then a divorce without bitterness, anger. A divorce where the children involved are not being sucked into drama... Where they are free to love both parents, AND (gulp) are free to love the OM or OW, if that is the case...

What I meant in my first post is that it doesn't matter if they come back or not, b/c YOU will be in a place that can handle either case scenario....

Posting here, prayers, therapy, whatever you need to do... Do it to get yourself back to loving you.. B/c if you don't love yourself, then I dont' think you can love anyone else....
and that is why I love you Chica...
you spit the truth my sistah
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/31/10 02:49 PM
Lissie,

That was an amazing post. Too bad there is an icon for standing up and applauding.

HUGS

Ginger wink
Lissie,

If you'll re-read your OWN post, all the answers to the questions you asked in the beginning of your post are answered within that SAME post. smile

You had the answers all along, everyone does, they just have to learn to access those within themselves.

You ARE truly a success because you found and use the key. smile

The key, defined, is honestly working on yourself; connecting with the answers that are found within YOU, only then, will you know the best way to go in your journey, whether the marriage makes it or not.

You are right, you cannot stand if you've not worked on YOU.

I'd already gotten what I had to do, three months post-bomb when I came to the board back in late 2001. I was posting as "hurting badly" then. Hearts Blessing didn't come until later on when things were on a much better course.

There was still SO much I had to learn, and I finished what learning I could do here. Yet, even at this late date, I STILL learn new things, but these are associated with where I'm walking now within my life.
You never stop growing and learning..that continues for the rest of your life.

If my husband hadn't wanted to continue with me, I would have dealt with that, as my marriage was not a means to an end, but the journey within was and is, important to my growing and becoming a better person, than I had been before his MLC.

I, too, remember a completely different board when I was here in late 2001 to early 2003. Some things were the same, as some wanted a "quick fix"..but that was not to be, so people were helped to work toward fixing themselves.

Some got it right off the bat, for some it took time, some continued to fight the idea of change. Still, some were still fighting these ideas when I left.

There was alot of fun and laughter back at that time, too. smile

There was never a shortage of people willing to explain the journey; yet, the gentle reminder always was that each person was different, each MLC was different..and you couldn't fit your experience into someone else's, no matter how similar the circumstances might be.

It made for some very disappointed people when things for them didn't come out as it had for me, and others.

I know that it doesn't matter how many ways I or anyone else explains it, people will ALWAYS have to find their OWN ways to cope, grow, and change.

Each person is at their own unique place in their own unique journey in each of their own unique lives.

The attitudes, personalities, ways, may be similar, but are SO different with each person.

Comprehension, understanding, wisdom and knowledge gained are not on the same time scale, therefore, each person has a totally different experience in this.

Tools may be offered, but no one is really forced to walk this journey if they do not choose to; there ARE choices.

Last of all, but not least, there are NO guarantees, whether in life, MLC, or ANY trial that is gone through.

I learned a long time ago that I could not save the world, I could only change myself, share what I learned with others, and let the rest go.

I do not give my time to others for something I am missing...there's nothing missing within me, I am complete and whole within MYSELF. That is BECAUSE of the journey I took, not because my spouse and I are reconciled.

Simply put, I give my time because I do care, and don't mind sharing what I know with people, as I was there, too; and you cannot help another until you've walked in their shoes for a time.

In time, the wounds DO heal, much is forgotten, only the lessons connected with the trial/journey is retained within. smile

A person is not a success for what they do, they are a success for who they are and what they've become within this journey of life.

Never measure your progress by another's journey; realize your own uniqueness, be patient with yourself.

And when you fall down? Well, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, forgive yourself for being human, and WALK ON..the best part of your life is just ahead. smile
Posted By: Drew Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/31/10 04:21 PM
(((((Lissie)))))

smile
Beautiful.
Lissie
Amazing post from an AMAZING woman!!

You are 100% correct!

Miss you Lissiebean!
Posted By: lalxx Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/31/10 09:30 PM
well said lissie,
6 months into my own journey and whilst I am not a reguar poster here I read a lot of the forum most days. I am pragmatic by nature so a lot of what i read translates into action for me!

I am learning to forgive my husband for the devastation and hurt he has caused. I loved him from the moment I laid eyes on him 18 years ago and I can never imagine a time when I don't love him but right now it is time for me to work on me and to protect my chidren and ensure I have no regrets about my behaviour.

You have travelled and interesting road and the lesson of learning is obviously one you will take into your new life.

blessings to you

respect

lalxx
Posted By: Lissie Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 04/01/10 01:49 PM
blush thanks guys... You guys are a blesseing, and thanks for always teaching me...

Have a Blessed Easter/Passover....

lalxx.. Choose life.. Love that..
I just posted the link to this for someone and went back to read it again.

Totally different now where I am than when I first read it.

Pulled this on standing from my own thread thought it might be helpful here:

IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.

You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"

In the beginning we want answers.

Why did this happen?

How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?

And the BIG ONE...

What is it about ME that made them leave?

IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.

At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...

As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...

It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.

Then you start to look inside....

Then you start to see who YOU are...

Then you realize that this is part of YOU

What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...

You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...

It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.

It is about YOU.
Also to continue on this also from my own thread...

Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.

An essential step.

An understanding.

An awakening of sorts.

I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.

I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.

We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors

We want our M back

We want our spouse to want us back

We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option

We want to ease our own pain

We want our own self esteem back

We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior

We want ________ because we get _________ in return.

We STAND on these principles.

We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.

From family, friends and

from ourselves.

Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.

It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.

We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.

So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.

As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.

Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.

Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.

We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.

It is then that the MIRACLE happens.

Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout

of green punches through...

This growth is something new and it

is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it

For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before

it took root.

But it did take root and

it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.

The miracle is the love for yourself.

You are no longer the choices your spouse makes

You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not

You are no longer the failures you see in yourself

You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.

Then you a FREE

Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.




This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.

Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.

What it means to love.
Truegritter, you are very new to this, I understand you wanting to stand and you should. I started this thread for opinions on how long is too long. There are people on here who have stood for 4 years and longer and no progress has been made. Not only do I think that is too long, standing at this point is futile. People at this stage are in total denial.
Braveheart

Didn't mean to overstep my boundaries. Sorry if you saw it that way. I was reading through this(again) and see it as great resource for me and anyone at ANY stage in this process. I was just offering my opinion.

The decision to stand IMO should be ever evolving and should be part of the growth process of the LBS. That is why I shared the above which is MY experience. It is fresh for me as you have pointed out I am relatively speaking new here.

It is, in the end up to the LBS to reconcile this dilemna which was the reason I posted this. I struggled with this and maybe some who stand longer never transition to working through their own thoughts on this.

Again apologies to you if this was outside the purview of your subject and if indeed it was off point.
"Truegritter, you are very new to this, I understand you wanting to stand and you should. I started this thread for opinions on how long is too long. There are people on here who have stood for 4 years and longer and no progress has been made. Not only do I think that is too long, standing at this point is futile. People at this stage are in total denial."

This experience of dealing with a wife in MLC is still very new to me. I struggle somewhat with the question of 'how long is too long?' Aside from a group dinner a year ago where they sat across from each other but did not speak, my wife and her EA partner live 12,000 miles away from each other and have not seen or been anywhere near each other for over 22 years! Yet, through internet and phone communications only, they have managed to convince each other that they are 'soul mates' - never mind reality, the fact we're still married, kids, his broken family, my severely bent but not yet broken family, and the list goes on...

What I struggle with and ask myself often is: If these two 'aliens' manged to convince themselves they've been waiting for each other for 22+ years, that their true love has endured for alllllllll this time based on pure, irrational fantasy, to me, it makes it much more difficult to convince myself that I should ever put a timeline on how I long I should stand for my wife. Never mind her irrational fantasy. Right now my wife still seems convinced. That alone tells me I should refrain from giving her ultimatums, deadlines, etc... She's not thinking in a straight line. She's thinking in circles, a continous loop. I guess that's something akin to what's called 'replay' here. I love my wife, and we have 2 children to raise. I guess I just have to jump in the rabbit hole with her, and hope I can pull her out before she gets permanently lost, or I lose myself in the process. Can't put a timeline on that I suppose...
How long is too long?

Your call.

We aren't supposed to listen to friends and family when they tell us to move on after a few months, but we are supposed to move on after 4 years?

Why is one time scale better than the other?

As long as you as a person grow, this trip is a good one, is an LBS in denial if there are still standing after 6 years? or 2 years? Only if the LBS is stuck in the same person they were when they first got here.

"Why me? Poor me, there is nothing wrong with me!"

That LBSer is in denail...and even then I wouldn't want them moving on, because they'll likely be back here in another realtionship...well not here...because coming here didn't help them. : )



Quote:

I guess I just have to jump in the rabbit hole with her, and hope I can pull her out before she gets permanently lost


You guess wrong and you hope wrong partner.

You can do Jack and Shite for them and I just left town, DO for YOU.

You CANNOT FIX her. You CANNOT SAVE her.

You can be there when this is over for her.

Her MLC ANY MLC is a timeline that is NOT set in stone, so to say 6 month 2 years 13 days or 8 years is arbitrary and wrong. A timeline is a great way to FAIL.

You give yourself as much time as you possibly can to standing, but NO ONE except yourself should tell you how long is too long. No one is an expert, and YOU have to live with YOUR choices, no one here.


Jack, you are right in the sense that people must make their own decisions in life. If one chooses to stand on their head and gargle peanut butter the rest of their life, that is a choice. Is it right? I suppose its relative like anything else. If someone wishes to stand forever, that is a choice, not a good one IMO, but everyone must do what they think is best. I am merely trying to point out that after a period of time, people should know if someone wants them back or not, after that has been realized, its time to move on, they are causing more harm than good. When someone stands for years with no progress, its time to move on, people can say what they want, but its not going to work out.
Posted By: Mila Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 04:02 AM
Interesting discussion. In my opinion there is no right or wrong, everyone is different. But same as the MLC's can get stuck, so can the LBS. If you are growing and living a full life while you are standing then who is to say it's wrong. If you are standing in one spot and suffering and hoping in the process...that can't be healthy.

I'm 52, that in it's self is going to make a difference in my case, I don't have the time to wait for 8 years for something that may or may not happen.

I'm going to live my life and let things happen as they happen. You can't live in the past and you don't know what the future holds, you can only live in the present. I'm standing now and that's all I know.
Mila! I agree. It is up to the individual! I am new at this and I am standing right now...don't know where I will be in 6mos let alone a year...thankgoodness that there are no set rules to this...

Mila, 52 or 32...it doesn't matter...it is what you feel comfortable with and as long as a LBS is happy, productive and whole while they are standing then there is definitely no age or time limit to abide by....

Luckliy, we realize that it is all up to us, what we can handle, what we need and what we want...WE are in control!!!
Posted By: Twink Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 04:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Mila
I'm 52, that in it's self is going to make a difference in my case, I don't have the time to wait for 8 years for something that may or may not happen
Yes. I'm 61, and while I'm a young 61 in body and mind and spirit, I can't afford to stand still. I am saying yes to whatever comes along.
Originally Posted By: Mila

I'm going to live my life and let things happen as they happen. You can't live in the past and you don't know what the future holds, you can only live in the present.


You know, it occurs to me that this is how we should be living regardless of our marital status. You only really have to deal with today.
I personally really like the whole "standing evolves as it moves forward" thing.

I agree that as long as you are happy, not wallowing, moving forward and growing - stand the rest of your life if it makes you happy. At a certain point, your stand will probably include "he'll never come back" type of realizations, but who cares, it's up to the individual to decide that.
Marked and Healed, the problem with "standing and evolving" thing is that the vast majority of the time, this doesn't happen. Most long-term standers do not move forward, they sit and do what they did 4 or 5 years ago. Again, if someone wishes to do that, its their right, but don't expect your marriage to be restored.
Posted By: iluvme55 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 06:18 PM
Amen to that sista!!!!!!!! I am 55 and I feel good.....have bad days but more good than bad......I am still standing after 3 1/2 yrs. because I feel God still wants me to do what I am doing and that is praying for him and our family... I have asked him to release me from this but I MUST obey God, you know when god speaks to you, and this is something I feel strongly about.....
Posted By: iluvme55 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 06:19 PM
Says who B/H ????????????
Ilikemenow, I says. Please give me the names of the people on this board that have stood for 4 or 5 years and have had restored marriages. Proof is in the pudding dear.
For the record, there are 23 reported restored marriages in the thread on this board out of the hundreds or thousands of people who have posted on this board over the years. Out of those how many stood for 4 or 5 years? 2 or 3, 10 for argument sake. Not good odds. How many of those are still together? My point is, this MLC thing is rarely overcome. If God is ordering you to stand, by all means do so, but please remember, you H has to listen to God in order for him to work on him.
BH the only time we do not see eye to eye is when you take hope away from people or use 'facts' i.e. numbers.

I like you.

I disagree with what seems to me to be this desire to tell people how long to hope.
Posted By: WCW Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 10:15 PM
Originally Posted By: braveheart
Ilikemenow, I says. Please give me the names of the people on this board that have stood for 4 or 5 years and have had restored marriages. Proof is in the pudding dear.
I have not read this whole thread and may be jumping into a fire but put my name on your list. I joined here in 2005 after 20 months of wondering WTH happened to my H? We are a work in progress....
Posted By: punkin Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 10:18 PM
JTB & BH,
Isn't that just part of being human? Wanting to know how long before you reach a desired destination. In this case, a restored, loving relationship. The timeline is the thing that drives me batty, too. When I read other people's stories and they've been waiting it out for 2-3 years, it is quite disheartening. I understand, everyone has to come to 'that point' in their own time, but is that point when you've been pushed into the wall, or when you just quit giving a damn? It's not easy being green.
Punkin,

IF everyone here went soley on percentages everyone here would give up and seek a divorce.

What percentage is a bad perecentage? 10% get divorced? 25%? 44% get divorced? 80% get a divorce? 90%

What if it was 99.999999%?

The way I see it...even if...no ESPECIALLY if it was 99.999999% of people here ended up divorced ESPECIALLY then Your marriage SHOULD be worth the fight. If you got married and AREN'T willing to give EVERYTHING you have and are capable of giving to be that .000001% why the hell did you get married?

You move on when YOU are ready too, when you have given everything you can and sacrificed all your patience and understanding and everything you can burn to stand...once that is gone, then move on. Because only then will you not look back and wonder "What if I had stood just a little longer?"

I am NOT saying never move on. I am not saying that.

I am saying that YOU and YOU alone should determine that. No one else no matter how helpful or hurtful that person may or may not be. Unlike family and friends in the real world, we are here to support, not control, not to spare someone from what we see as 'false' hope because our circumstances didn't work out the way we hoped they would.

There is no timeline punkin...your Husbands MLC takes as long as it takes. Your goal is to outlast it and improve yourself in the process.

IF you go by a timeline you're likely going to quit out sooner than later.
Posted By: punkin Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 11:18 PM
JTB,

Your words of wisdom have restored my faith. I've had a bad couple of days, mainly just missing him so badly. Yes, only I can determine when I have given it my best shot, and it's time to stand down. I love my husband with all my heart, but, for myself, I know that I will not be one to wait years. This is his 2nd affair in 20 years. I stood through the first one. It's kind of like living through cancer and then, it returns with a vengence. I don't know if I have the stamina to keep up. I'm not setting a date, but the time will come for me sooner rather than later, and it won't be measured in years. That is not because I don't love my husband, because I do with all my heart, but because I owe it to my family and to myself to say WHEN.
Posted By: iluvme55 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/15/10 11:38 PM
Getting down to the power of God B/H....I am sure you know the story of Saul.....christian killer man, woman, anyone who spoke of Jesus was put to death...feared by all.....but Jesus appeared to him on the road of Damascus and asked him why do you persecute me.......this guy got scared out of his mind and he after 3 days returned as Paul....one of the great authors of the bible......if God can do this to Saul ......then he can chg people's hearts.....that is my view of God the father......stronger than anyone or anything.....and he does change people all the time .....they will eventually listen to him and yes he gives us free will, but my question to you is, do you think God does not have this power to bring some of us to our senses???? What would of happened if you would of kept praying for your wife? Maybe she would of come back home....IF YOU WOULD OF KEPT PRAYING....just my thought......did you NEVER ask yourself that question WHAT IF? I am happy with my life right now, God is my provider not my husband....and I like how I have grown with God the best thing that has ever happened to me is knowing him as I do now....wouldnt trade it for anything.....I love the relationship I have with him now....from this broken mess this is what I have gotten from it....ttyl on F/B
Thanks JTB for throwing your two cents in.
BH I have read much of your posts and I truly appreciate your insight. I understand your point, and the caveat I made was specifically that people have got to change and grow. That's the whole part about becoming fulfilled and complete that we all need to get.

However, and I say this with all love, your statistics stink. I'm not saying they're not accurate. I'm saying that even I, an eternal optimist, felt a moment of heart fluttering when I read those stats. For a split second, I thought of giving up... not cool. I'm not saying that we should not be realistic, but rather that we should not influence others negatively if we can help it. Pull the wool over our eyes? Maybe, but when we LOS (I decided I don't like LBS - I'm using Left Out Spouses instead) - are so fragile, we don't need to hear that we have only a 1% chance of success. Let's face it, 1% is a heck of a lot better than 0%.

In those numbers you quoted, several things are left out - because we don't have this info. How many of those people just dropped off the boards, how many dropped out of standing before the potential positive outcome came about? How many became bitter, didn't move on, didn't learn and grow? How many were just too interested in teaching their MLCer lessons or getting back at them rather than forgiving from the heart and building a new life together?

I admit, I have only been reading about MLC for two and a half months, I'm no expert. In that time, I've not even finished one book. I'm reading four books at a time, and am almost done with them all. I've highlighted, gone to other sources, cross referenced, and gone to the boards with questions and I'm still learning. However, one undercurrent I have found everywhere is this: (warning, this is my own opinion) - I believe that given the perfect inputs the majority of MLCers will return to the marriage.

Those inputs are:
1. The MLCer coming to terms with what they did and who they are (the biggest variable) - one who "makes it through the tunnel."
2. A LOS who is forgiving, caring, loving and kind and willing to listen to their spouse with love and not throw anything back at them for punishment
3. A LOS who goes through their own transition and truly grows and becomes a complete person.
4. A willingness to go together into piecing knowing it will be harder than they will imagine and an agreement not to run (as MLCers have already shown a propensity to run)
5. TIME
Folks, I really do not mean to rain on anyone's parade, but as I have said before, we can slice this up anyway we want to, but most of these people do not come back. If any of you wish to stand forever, that's your right. If you want to believe most of these people come back, by all means believe that. I am a numbers person and have been here long enough to have different beliefs. Sorry they don't match some of yours. Likemenow, I did a lot praying during my time of separation, I was confused, scared, worried, just like everyone else. Low and behold, the Lord put someone wonderful in my life, much better than my XW. Guess what, if I had laid on my tail and "stood" for 4 years while she did what she wanted, I would have been ALL ALONE. You need to think about that, remember, God helps them who help themselves.
BH

Quote:
Folks, I really do not mean to rain on anyone's parade,

I wanted to believe this I really did…..BUT then you said this…..

Quote:
but as I have said before, we can slice this up anyway we want to, but most of these people do not come back.

When did you get a crystal ball?

I am sorry to say BH but this is the second time I have seen you post somewhat of a negative view to the people on this board. The people that are in pain. The people that are reaching for hope. The people who truly love their spouses and are doing everything in their power to save their M.

I understand and respect that you are entitled to your opinion but I do not agree with your approach. I don’t know you from a hole in the wall and you do not know me. I am not aware of your sitch. I can honestly say that when I read your post the sense I get is that you have never completely healed from your D and although I do not know you, I am so sorry for this. I truly am. I suspect that your W did a number on you (as mine is doing to me). I do not know if you lost your kids in your D, if you lost your house, I have no idea. Maybe it is me….but I would have thought you would have wanted to help people on these boards deal with their pain….Help people get thru this sh*tty time in their life. Help people by NOT removing the small sliver of hope that they have and so cling on to until such time that THEY decide to move on. I am sorry you seem really angry.

You mentioned that you prayed a lot. I am glad for this. Many here have and continue to. Maybe you should pray for forgiveness, healing, and compassion. Based on your post it appears that you have been blessed with a new R. I am happy for you. I am.

I have to say, that you throwing out some statistic that one would need to spend hours sorting thru to confirm the validity of, is …well….IMO, irresponsible. Totally irresponsible. May I ask; would have liked to read this while you were standing? Would you have “felt” better, in those times that you were probably crying and hurt; if someone posted some stat like this? Be honest with yourself – would you. I suspect not. Your angry still – I get it. You may think that you are helping someone but really are you. Do you or I have the right to suggest when someone should stop standing. Do you or I have the right to tell someone that after X number of years you should move on. Ask yourself this….what is true love? What is it? What is your definition? Had you W told you that if you wait for me for X years I will come back. Would you have waited? Maybe…maybe not. Should I have said if you decided to wait that you were wrong? I suspect if you had been in the spot you may feel differently.
BH – I am an LBS. My marriage will more than likely end sometime this year. Does that mean that I no longer stand? What is standing? What is a marraige? Are we really here to save a marriage or save an R with the person that we truly love? IMO – standing is something that each person defines and determines the timeline for. Have you recently read up on the number of statistics that identify that the number of re-marriages are rising at an astronomical rate. Funny I did not hear you mention this stat.

BH - I want you to know that write this from the point of view of someone who has decided to no longer stand for their M. Do I love my W. Yes. It is this site and the people on it that help ME to get to a place where I could make the choice. They did….without RIPPING away Hope! They did it with class and diginity because it is the people that they have become.
You believe God I assume…in your prayer closet ask yourself this…did I help or did I hurt someone today.

Finally, to suggest that someone like Grit is New to this…well that is quite insensitive. Have you read his thread…have you seen his growth…could you not have given him words of encouragement instead of a little criticism.

Quote:
Guess what, if I had laid on my tail and "stood" for 4 years while she did what she wanted, I would have been ALL ALONE.

Maybe…maybe not. I would like to think that I would be with someone who truly understood the vows of till death do us part. We all make mistakes and hell I keep making them. To suggest that by waiting we may just miss out on a great R with someone new is once again IMO – wrong.

God Bless
Eric
First Bravo Eric.

Standing hands clapping.

Originally Posted By: braveheart
Low and behold, the Lord put someone wonderful in my life, much better than my XW.


Better? Or better for you?

BH I know I haven't been here long enough in your eyes.

However I can say this with all the confidence in the world.

I don't measure my success by whether my W wants my M back or not.

I won't measure her worth against anyone else that has been, is or ever will be in my life.

That is because I have learned that this is about our growth.

That is the only success I care about.

The only mistakes that can be made is not learning from the ones you make.

The only thing I want for my W is for her to find her own answers and if that is without me then that is just the way it is.

I will rejoice that she is trying to do that for herself in the best way she can.
Posted By: fudwoman Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/16/10 02:36 PM
Hi all,
I guess in a way I don't have anything of substance to add here but I've been reading this thread with great interest because in many ways it speaks to where I am at right now and all of my questions and fears. I don't think there is any 'winning' this debate - each person's experience is unique. BH I'm a numbers person too - it's what I do for a living - but I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to an individual case - stats mean a hill of beans. There are odds and then there is your reality. Sometimes people's beliefs are based on deep faith - like Laura Munsen. Sometimes people's beliefs are based on fear - pure and simple - like mine. I have no inner wisdom that my H will decide our marriage is worth another shot. I just have horrendous fear that he won't. If I'm honest with myself I will admit that fear is the core of my 'hopefulness'. I don't think that's true for everyone though. In the end - whether we have the illusion that we can fight reality or not - we all have to surrender to life as it comes. Every day I have a choice to be brave and face my fears or to hide - sometimes I hide because it's all I can do but at other times I find the strength to face my deepest fears. Everyone has the right to make that choice based on an internal compass not based on aggregate data.

I hope I've made some sense.

A
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/16/10 03:31 PM
Easy here....

I know it is not above Braveheart to ruffle some feathers : )

And I think we can all come up with our own numbers to justify where and how long to do most anything.

I have read Braveheart for a couple years now, and although we agree to disagree on some issues, he will stand in the way of no person trying to survive or heal themselves here.

Do most come back ?

I believe that most want to at some point.

Doesn't mean that the circumstances are right for that. It depends on so many things, including the path of the LBS, and WHERE they are when that is feasible for the MLCer.

Realistically ? No , it doesn't happen often enough.

But who are we to take that percentage and hang it out there to interrupt hope from people who are wiling to make that choice, to be there IF they ever return.

That is why standing is such an individual decision to each and every one of us.

If one stands for a month, and decides that they are done, then so be it.

If one stands for ten years, then so be it.

Standing to me involves healing and self growth. You will NEVER see me tell someone to focus on their whacked out spouse, or what "stage" they are in, because that is not where our minds need to be.

Everyone here, arrived here with baggage. Pain and anguish dominated our days and nights. We could not see the light shining to light our path.

We took/take things one second at a time, then one hour at a time, then one day at a time, until eventually, we start becoming people again, and find that we actually like ourselves.

And we can start to live for ourselves instead of losing that part of us within our old marriage.

What scares us the most from Braveheart's posts here are, that :

They strike a fear within us that he may be correct...

And although he comes across as an a$$hat sometimes... : )

He really means no harm to any of us.

Personally ? I like reading his thoughts .

He spins a different perspective within me.

He is a dose of reality when everything gets stuck.

And who am I to blast him for his pondering...

That would make me into the person of which I had been falsely accused ( or was I, with that mentality )

What is reality ?

That there is a balance in EVERYTHING we do in life....

An opposite reaction to everything we encounter.

Although I disagree with the delivery, I agree with the message. That we DO need to prepare and embrace our future without our spouses.

If they CHOOSE to try again, our responsibility is to be prepared for our NEXT relationship, and IF that is with our current spouse, then so be it.

Standing is an individual act for all of us...

And NO ONE PERSON should influence that within ourselves......'cept for us.
Posted By: iluvme55 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/16/10 06:28 PM
I think Eric is right,B/H you do sound very bitter....and when that happens, there has not been real FORGIVENESS.....with forgiveness comes inner peace...inner peace that surpasses understanding......that's all I have to say
Posted By: cat04 Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/16/10 06:57 PM
One of the wonderful things about these boards is they give all who post here the freedom to express themselves and their views.

Standing is a very individual choice and we all do it for different reasons. Just like we all stop doing it for different reasons.

Bottom line, statistics should not give you hope or discouragement. They are no more than a manipulation of numbers. Statistics say you will probably never win the lottery but many many people continue to play.

While I don't often agree with BH, I do not think he ever says anything to intentionally hurt anyone. And I have to disagree with any assessment of someone's healing based on reading one or two posts.

Whether someone is brand new to this or a 10 year veteran, there comes a point where the reality of ALL options need to be faced.

When we don't look at every possibility, we are just burying our heads in the sand.

It is also facing reality to recognize that not everyone is going to sugar coat or be Mr. or Ms. Sensative to people's feelings with their words. We all have different communication styles. Some are much more harsh sounding than others.

This thread, brings up some very good points, even if people do not want to look at them.

Standing CAN become unhealthy. It CAN make us stuck. There comes a point where, if we have grown and healed and learned, that we are willing to recognize it if that happens.

I do believe there are people here and elsewhere who stand longer than they should. Longer than what is healthy.

I might, in one of those instances, try to give them a wake up call, so to speak, and I think that is all that BH is doing. While you might not like how it is coming across, the intention is not as bad as some have made it.
Quote:

I do believe there are people here and elsewhere who stand longer than they should. Longer than what is healthy.


I know I feel this way. I DO agree with aspects of Braveheart's , our idea's are NOT that different.

I just do not see it as my place to decide when someone should not stand or how long IS too long...conversely...and perhaps hypocritically I'll tell someone that 2 months is too short a time. However, that is more of defense of DBing, and the idea that the person who gave it two months DID NOT in fact DB.

I also have a problem with being able to say...GENERALLY...that there are people here who stood too long...but we lack the courage to say that directly to them? We hide behind generalizations...but BUT...I am glad that we do not actually tell a person directly to give up hope. How dare we do that.

Even I am not THAT callous, and you know what? It is not my place, nor should it be anyone elses.

A person I feel is stuck? I'll try to help NOT by saying, "Time is up! You need to go date now, your husband is boinking the seceratry and the guy in PR." But with themselves. A Person who is CAPABLE of living without their spouse is the person who is ABLE to move on without regrets.

What is the reality of 'standing'? It is different for you as it is for me, because MY perception and MY experience forms MY reality. Just as yours does for you.

So my reality of standing differs from Cat's, Machs, Grits, trapts, Brooklyns, BrandNewDays, Bravehearts...ALL different.

Braveheart is not bitter...I am not sure he has totally forgiven his X...but then I'm not sure I have 100% forgiven my wife at times based upon what I write I am sure that many of you wonder that as well. I'd say it is mostly most forgiven...but talking about the past always has ramnifications for me as well.
I am just going to throw something out there

about standing

I started standing for my marriage and all that entailed

then

I started getting some help and looking at all the things I needed to improve on
and
work on
and
get back to

so I started working and learning and doing and my stance changed from standing for my marriage
to
standing for me
who I was
who I was meant to be

part of who I am is someone who believes in the truth and commitment and love and family

so

I was standing for me
which meant standing for marriage and commitment (not just mine)

then
I found out that my ex is a sociopath
I couldn't stand for a marriage with someone who was hurting my children, myself, themselves and who was NEVER going to get better

so

I kept standing for myself
my family
marriage
commitment

but I let go of my ex and all that he had said he was but wasn't

i met someone else
someone amazing and wonderful, generous and protective, strong and gentle, intelligent and funny

he knew and knows who he is
and
I know who I am

I never stopped standing

I just started standing for me
what was good for me
important for me
was in keeping with who I was and am at my core!!!

standing isn't to win your spouse back
standing is who you are at your core


there are many people who spout standing and have wicked nicknames for their exes, or who get their "feel goods" from outside instead of in

there are people who stand forever...not in the hopes of winning someone back but because of the person they are

there are people that don't even get out of the chair
they flash into a new relationship like changing socks

statistics don't matter when you are being true to who you are
1% or 100%...shouldn't matter
you aren't who you are for results

you are who you are because you must be
I think its kinda funny that some on here call me; callous, insensitive, not caring about other's feelings, mean, etc. I ask this question; If you really feel that way about me, what keeps you standing for someone who has REALLY hurt you? I am blunt and I do look at things from a different perspective. As for my life, I am not bitter, have I forgiven my XW? No, and I never will. Why? Because she left our 2 children, she has nothing to do with them. IMO she is not worthy of forgiveness. I am spiritual, God put someone wonderful in my life, I focus my attention on her now, not my XW. Sorry if that doesn't go along with some of your beliefs or ideas. As I have said time and again, if you want to stand forever, go for it, but if you are doing it for years and years with no progress, you are wasting your life.
Originally Posted By: fig
you aren't who you are for results

you are who you are because you must be


This is what I believe. Thanks fig.

Originally Posted By: braveheart
Sorry if that doesn't go along with some of your beliefs or ideas.


That's ok. I'm not sure I believe what you're preaching but you certainly have sparked a discussion!

BH this is a small population of some of the most amazing people.

Why? How many people around you could you have such a discussion?

My friend (my I call you that?) I know you have been here a while and you are still here. Why? Because you care? There is part of you that has to be here.

My life is completely different from being here.

I for one am glad you are still here. There has been some good sh!t said here.

Bring your bad a$$ back in here.

Respectfully

Grit
Posted By: Upside Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/17/10 04:57 AM
This is a great topic to discuss here. It is especially appropriate for me since I am on of those that has stood for 3-4 years and recently gave up...and just for the record, I do wonder how I got here because this was never part of my plan.

First let me say that I did what I had to do for ME! Not only does it take me a long time to process everything but it didn't help that my H just couldn't make up his mind. This was my 2nd marriage after my first H had his own crisis. I never wanted the first divorce especially since we had 2 babies at the time. Six years after my first H left me, I found a man that I thought was the opposite of my first H because he would have done ANYTHING in the world for me. I thought he would never leave me...well, as soon as his D graduated from high school, he was pretty much out the door. I kept thinking that my H would eventually "get it" and come home. He kept talking like he was figuring things out and said he wanted to come home but could never pull the trigger (as the C said). I think maybe my H has more issues than just MLC going on so that is why he couldn't let himself come back. I know my H does love me and on some level wants the marriage.

If you would have asked me in the beginning if I would have been standing for the M after 1 year, 2 years, 3 years...I would have said no way in he11! Don't get me wrong, I wanted the marriage to work but I wasn't prepared to give it this long. Life just sort of happened and in the interim, we did have some happy moments together...however those moments when they were just at his convenience eventually didn't work for me.

IMO, it would be unhealthy for me to continue with my H making no real progress toward moving home. Who knows what the futures holds but for right now, I'm no longer waiting around for my H to figure out what he wants. My life is mine and I have determined that I am better off alone than with a man who does not appreciate me to the fullest.

Now that being said, I remember when I first got here and seing the statistic somewhere that 80% come back to less than 1% come back. Does it really matter? When we come here, we are just trying to heal and sort everything out. Most people who come here are the committed type and want to stand for their marriage. The hard part is that marriage takes two and coming here, we eventually learn we have no control over the other person. This place helps us put everything in so the perspective that we need to get us through the day...through the moment.

I don't think that braveheart's skepticism is a bad thing is small doess. After all, we do need to see both sides of the spectrum.
Posted By: Walking Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/17/10 05:49 AM
Fig - that is perhaps the most profound post I've ever read here.

Quote:
standing is who you are at your core


That's it.

It's amazing that it takes such a long, heartbreaking, yet empowering journey to understand that.

Beautifully said - that post is almost poetry.
Truegritter, thanks for your comments. Its very true that we as people often do not agree, but that should not stop any of us in expressing our beliefs. Often times people cannot accept people's thoughts and opinions if they differ from their own. I may not agree with you, but I do respect your point of view.
Originally Posted By: Marked&Healed
I personally really like the whole "standing evolves as it moves forward" thing.
Originally Posted By: braveheart
Marked and Healed, the problem with "standing and evolving" thing is that the vast majority of the time, this doesn't happen.
So what you are saying is that she’s right. Of course things don’t always happen that way. The point is that they can and they do, should people not Stand because they might not do it well? And many here have found the opposite to be true—for many people it does happen that the LBS evolves. You may perceive an LBS as not having grown, but the appropriate indicator is how an LBS feels.


Originally Posted By: braveheart
Please give me the names of the people on this board that have stood for 4 or 5 years and have had restored marriages.
Well, there is me and what about BND.

Braveheart, you have always been one of my favourite posters. And I am certain that you are not bitter. People are afraid to face the tough questions and when you pose them, their protection is to perceive you as a bitter. You’re likely used to it since it’s been that way since you came to the boards.

But sometimes the questions do not change once they have been answered over and over…and over again. I know, there are new people who need them. But this one about the reconciled marriages…come on! You keep asking and people keep answering and there has been a stickied thread about them for a few years. The horse is dead, stop beating it.

It feels like you dismiss the answers that people are giving.
1000 ships, nah, I don't beat a dead horse, in fact, someone brought this thread back. If people will read my posts, I am very helpful with new posters. I am very sensitive to their situation, and I offer advice to help. My post was designed for someone who has been doing the same things year after year and nothing changes. In my view, that is not standing, that is someone who is stuck. I am not opposed to standing, I think that just about everyone should do it. I just feel that after a while, it gets to the point where you don't move forward with your life. Its those types of people who end up bitter, because they have spent so much time waiting and their spouses didn't come back. 1000 Ships, I will sum it up like this. My definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Braveheart,

Well I've always thought you were sensitive and empathetic. People need to face their fears.

As for the dead horse, it's not the thread or topic. Those are good. In the first post I wrote on this thread I talked about Standing and the dangers.


For me the dead horse is the continual question about naming DBers who have reconciled marriages.

As for you addressing this topic to the stuck deniars, yes I think we have seen that there are some and perhaps a lot. What makes me shriek is when you use absolute modifers and blanket generalizations to imply that any Stander after a certain period of time is stuck in denial and/or not growing.

It is true of some and not true of others...in the same way that it is true that some MLCers return and some do not.

Tough the it is a priority and thus primary goal to help LBSs grow and choose personal joy, realizing they are responsible for their own life and success. But for me it is also a goal to hel Standers reconcile their marriage, thereby someday improving those statistics you talk about.

Think of it this way: Suppose that the success rate of in vitro fertilization in the past 5 years was 40% (made up number)
But over only the past year it was 70%.

Technology changed and this so did the stats.

But Braveheart, you really are awesome!
Originally Posted By: braveheart
1000 ships, nah, I don't beat a dead horse, in fact, someone brought this thread back. If people will read my posts, I am very helpful with new posters. I am very sensitive to their situation, and I offer advice to help.


I agree. Most of your adviced is very helpful and focused on the LBS which is good.

Quote:
My post was designed for someone who has been doing the same things year after year and nothing changes. In my view, that is not standing, that is someone who is stuck. I am not opposed to standing, I think that just about everyone should do it. I just feel that after a while, it gets to the point where you don't move forward with your life.


Every one becomes stuck at some point in time throughout this. Neither the LBS or the MLC'er just breezes through this. It's a part of the process. How long depends upon the person.

How long is too long? It's different for everyone. It's personal.

Yes, it makes no sense to do the same things over and over again. That is stuck and not healthy.

We are all different. We all have a little different spin on things based upon our own experience.

I know it's not my place to tell a person when to move on. Especially when all I really have to go on are little paragraphs posted here and there. Given the fact that mlc can last for years and or a lifetime, how long is too long?

There are NO clear answers here, only OPINIONS and personal choices that will always differ.

It's all about personal choice and control and this is where I sort of scratch my head whenever this discussion gets resurrected.

It's not our place to impose our opinions on such a personal and important choice.

That being when to move on.

By all means help them if they are stuck, but to tell them to move on. That's their choice and it's totally out of our control.

Quote:
I will sum it up like this. My definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.


I get what you're saying and I agree one hundred percent.

Doesn't the same apply by telling someone over and over to move on and expecting them to listen. smile

In fairness, braveheart, you didn't bring this topic back to the top, I just couldn't resist giving you a hard time.

Well, I for one want to say thank you Braveheart.
I do not agree with telling people who are mostly on here looking for hope that the statistics are unfavorable for "success" as they currently define it. I think those stats are bunk... pure and simple. Not saying you can't add, darling, just that it's unscientific at best as there are absolutely no controls (and probably could never be any)

That being said... thank you for this thread because although I was "getting it" about moving on and I certainly have not been standing still - I have been learning and growing and detaching... you did light a fire under me to go back to college and finish my degree. I just re-read this thread and it lit a fire in my heart to take the THREE classes I need to finish my degree and move on to something else in my life. (which has been on hold for 5 years now while I took care of my step children)

And if nothing else comes out of it... at least be happy you helped push one person past their comfort zone and into growth today. smile

Peace everyone.
Good for you M&H!! That made me smile today. smile



BH, I get what you are saying. I'm there. I've only been here for a short time, but I've been in a bad M for a lot longer. I'd been doing my version of standing for more than 2 years. I was doing most of it wrong...lol... but I was fighting. I've recently come to the realization my standing was still trying to control the sitch.

We WILL stay married & we WILL be happy, even if it kills us!!!

Um. Yeah.

I could never tell someone they are standing too long. That is a very personal & painful decision. Like fig said, you stand for the M, you stand for the MLCer, and then all of a sudden you realize you are standing for you. Powerful stuff.

I won't even touch upon whether or not I thought the verbage & the tone was snarky. We all know I have a terrible track record for that. I will say that people will see what they want to see. If they want to see hope for a marriage, they will find it. If they want to see a dismal outlook for a save, then they will find that, too. I can't give anybody numbers to prove my point--people will find the info they are looking for in them.



I do want to touch upon a comment you made about your W not being worthy of forgiveness.

You are right, her actions were heinous. I can't imagine walking away from my children.

That said...your kids are already going to have enough issues coming to grips with this as they get older--your holding onto to the anger isn't going to help them any.

Forgiveness isn't about the other person. Your forgiving her isn't about her. It's all about you. Holding onto any amount of anger or hostility is only hurting you. Trust me. The other person just doesn't care. Pretty soon that anger starts to grow, even if you don't realize it. It becomes a shadow that darkens parts of your life that deserve the time & space to grow freely.

By forgiving someone, let's say an abusive exboyfriend of mine (just to get the focus off of you so you don't feel I'm attacking you)...

I was angry with him for such a long time. I would never forgive him. Or I would forgive, but I'd never forget!! Which is really the same as not forgiving him. How dare he do that to me. I didn't deserve that. I'd make the next man pay just because he didn't. Even when I wasn't consciously thinking it, it was still there.

My anger towards him wasn't hurting him. It was hurting me. Still. He was still winning.

By forgiving him, and more importantly--forgiving myself, I gave myself permission to let it go. I wasn't saying in any way, shape, or form that it was okay to leave bruises on me, or to say the things he did to me. It's not okay. It's still not okay to do that to anyone. I'm just not making either of us pay for it anymore.

I read a quote in a book about how people need to love like they have never been hurt before because we color everything we have now with the hurt and fear from our pasts. We become so focused not getting hurt again that we miss out on the joys that today brings.

Your kids will be better for it because they won't grow up with that negative aspect of their lives--that their mother abandoned them. Even if you say it so she looks as guilty as she is, that she left two beautiful children, all they are going to hear is "your mother left you." Kids fill in the blanks quickly & personalize nearly everything. Soon they will feel that they did something wrong & that they weren't good enough for their mommy to stay. Even though that is so not the truth.

Can you see where I'm going? Not understanding why she did it? Sure. Not agreeing with it? Absolutely. But I beg you to please, somehow, find a way to forgive her. Get rid of that negative view and keep it far away from the kids. Let them grow up knowing just how incredible they are, shower them with all the praise they deserve. Don't even mention her. They will figure it out eventually, they don't need any help.

And besides, when you purge that from your heart, you will have even more room to feel love for that wonderful woman who is in your life. I'll bet she'd like that very much. wink

Don't forgive her for her, forgive her for yourself, your kids & every future relationship you will have. You deserve it. They deserve it.

Stop letting her win.


(((blessings on the new happiness you've found)))
Marked and Healed, CONGRATS on getting your degree!! FANTASTIC!! That is what I call moving forward!! You keep growing and good things will happen for you, maybe not in the way you would hope, but they will!! You are a great example for those who are stuck!!!
M&H - Going back to get your degree, that's a wonderful PH!

BR, Great post!
Quote:

We become so focused not getting hurt again that we miss out on the joys that today brings.


Bam.

Quote:


We become so focused not getting hurt again that we miss out on the joys that today brings.



BAM!

Quote:


WE BECOME SO FOCUSED (on) NOT GETTING HURT AGAIN THAT WE MISS OUT ON THE JOYS THAT TODAY BRINGS!




That's a pretty IMPORTANT lesson...one that even people I know well and have moved on and do well for themselves suffer from.
That fear...and old buttons.

PS - if it stings...even a little...you know what to do.
Quote:


PS - if it stings...even a little...you know what to do.


Ummm, put some Benadryl on it?
Quote:
PS - if it stings...even a little...you know what to do.


Quote:
Ummm, put some Benadryl on it?


No alcohol silly! The potable kind...;)
Originally Posted By: Truegritter

No alcohol silly! The potable kind...;)


LMAO!
Posted By: glamgirl Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 06/19/10 04:37 PM
This is a very good topic and I would like to share my thoughts. Standing is truly a personnel decision. Nobody could have helped me see or understand when the time was right for me to walk away.

At first, I found myself chasing my h and so desperately trying to get him back. Then I found Db'ing and realized I was doing it all wrong and then I had all the setbacks and struggling with what should I do and finding my balance.

Then the deep depression set-in for me and I found it hard to manage the day to day. During this time I lost 2 jobs in a matter of a year. I struggled financially, emotionally, physically you name it, I had much on my plate. All while others were saying D him get rid of him etc. Well, I couldn't hardly deal with him let alone take care of myself and my kids.

Then I started to work on myself. Started working out, focusing my time on the kids. Then lost another job and the house. Now this was not a bad thing for me, because it forced me out of the depressed environment I was in and allowed me to focus on what was important to me and my future.

During all this time my h was involved with my life. He was coming around acting like we were h and w but just not sleeping in our home. We were celebrating holidays our anniversaries etc. In many ways my h kept me stuck, since it seemed to me he was trying to work through his issues and was a major part of my life and the kids.

Once I was free from the depression I could see clearly and realized I wanted more for my life. It was at this time that I let my h know that I was done, but I had to make that decision on my own. Nobody could have led me to that decision.

Yes, I stood for over 3 years, but I didn't expect that to happen. With all that I had going on with loosing jobs, the house, major depression, this journey took me awhile to complete. It needs to be when YOU are ready.

I do believe amazing things can happen though. As I gave up and moved on, in walks my h wanting to reconcile.

I don't think it was unhealthy for me to stand for so long. I do look around though and say wow I wasted a lot of time waiting, but that had to come from me nobody else.

Time has a way of slipping away. I think that is what happened for me. Only you can make the decision of when to move on.
Glam, did you guys get back together or did you divorce him?
Posted By: rysmom Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 07/17/10 04:18 AM
This is and excellent post. Thanks Fig.
Posted By: Ancaire Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 09/07/15 10:52 AM
Loved this....needed it, too.
WOW! This post was a long time ago! I re-read it for the fun of it, to see the insights of people who I've not seen in a long while. Looking back on my comments, I see where I was a bit harsh in some of the things I have said. I guess as I've gotten older, I'm a little softer in some of the things I say.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 09/11/15 01:04 PM
Originally Posted By: braveheart
WOW! This post was a long time ago! I re-read it for the fun of it, to see the insights of people who I've not seen in a long while. Looking back on my comments, I see where I was a bit harsh in some of the things I have said. I guess as I've gotten older, I'm a little softer in some of the things I say.


Yea that happens to men as we get older,
its actually biological IMHO.
Posted By: LALost Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/23/17 11:33 PM
I cannot thank you all for being here and this thread. Maybe this post reignites things. Statistics matter to me. They do. In mwd books she talks in terms of weeks and months not years. And she also seems to focus on tactics and strategy...detaching is tough but not as hard as Reco nnecting.
Posted By: OwnIt Re: Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy - 03/24/17 12:57 AM
Thanks for resurrecting this. It is exactly what I have been thinking about, and a few others it seems. I haven't been here long but I see that several heavy hitters were involved in this and gave some excellent perspectives. I see why Jack meant so much to the folks around here. A cool head and a kind heart.
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